Progress & Tradition - Episode 12

WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en
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[Music]
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you can walk the streets to the lonely
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night you can tell yourself that
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everything's all right
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but you're wasting your time
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hello welcome to is it episode 12
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martin it is episode 12 and of it's your
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time you're wasting and
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welcome to tonight's waste of time
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yes and we've got a bit of a packed show
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tonight we've got four interviews uh
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martin tell us who we've got
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well we've got it with you jonathan
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mount stevens coming up first i believe
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and um then patrick alexander from
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inspiration
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trust right then ed clark
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who's going to um be an interesting
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interview
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and and who've you got two others uh yes
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david bott and um
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jared horvath um who
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beamed in this morning to chat well for
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my for me in the morning for them late
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at night
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from melbourne to talk about their book
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uh 10 things that schools are doing
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wrong
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uh so that and that's that was a really
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great interview which we're only going
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to see a snippet of tonight
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and uh as always martin if you subscribe
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to the channel you will be notified when
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the full
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um full interviews are released in the
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week so if you haven't already
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subscribed
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do it now and we have a special guest i
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think as well um
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have we got our special guest out there
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yes
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we've got a few we've managed to record
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a few brief words
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from the prime minister so if we can go
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straight to that that would be wonderful
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after brexit we could have volleyball
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playing women with very large breasts
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and curvaceous cucumbers are no longer
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encumbered by the european union
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of course after brexit we could have
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volleyball playing women
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there we go um
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ladies and gentlemen when you see the
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whole interview if you if you um do
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subscribe you'll see it come out during
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the week he does a wonderful
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set of impressions including an
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excellent margaret thatcher
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let's especially um celebrate the
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beginning of the crown
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this week um which is of course
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catherine burble singh's favorite
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program if you remember
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yes it is so that's at least one reason
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to start watching it if you haven't
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already
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uh and but what do you say she said it
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was her favorite program but i would
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understand now that
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topping the list is it's your time
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you're wasting of course
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i should have thought of that of course
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well so one of the so let's go to our
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first interview it's with jonathan man
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stevens who's a deputy head teacher and
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a history teacher
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in saint albans and earlier in the week
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he
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um he put out a tweet about
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his his uh irritation with the way
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history is being used to justify various
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opinions but let's let's hear from the
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man himself
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so um i'm delighted to be
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speaking to jonathan mount stevens a
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history teacher and deputy head
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at beaumont school in some albans about
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how the subject of history is being
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dragged
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into culture wars and jonathan
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you uh put up on twitter in the week
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a really really interesting and well
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thought
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through uh series of tweets about just
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what's bugging you
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um could you give us a bit of an
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overview of your
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irritation yeah i'm sure
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um nice to talk to you david this this
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sort of has been bugging me for for some
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time i think and there's been a
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combination a number of things that have
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um
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irritated me and that the specific thing
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this week which kind of prompted the
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thread
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um was it was a a letter sent by a group
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of
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um conservative mps called i think the
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common sense group
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um to the daily telegraph about uh a
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piece of research
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um conducted by the national trust
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looking into
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uh the sort of links between some of
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their properties um
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and slavery and colonialism um
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and you know for example they they they
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showed that there were some links with
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with chartwell
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for example and one of the things that
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the these mps seem to object to
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um was that they they felt that this
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research was kind of tarnishing the
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reputation of kind of national heroes
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like winston churchill who obviously
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um lived in himself um and that kind of
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uncovering this this stuff about its
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history
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um sort of did damage
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to him as a as a national hero and i
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think one of the things they said in
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this letter was that the
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national trust was being colored by
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cultural marxist dogma
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um and i just don't think that the
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research that they conducted and i can't
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say whether the national trust is
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colored by cultural marxist
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dog or i'm not here to speak for the
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national trust um
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but it it seemed to me entirely
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wrong-headed for them to be saying that
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this piece of historical research
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um meant that um simply because
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for me that there's two questions there
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and the first question is is it
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reasonable for the national trust
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to conduct historical research into the
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properties
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which um it has in his portfolio um and
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the answer to that seems to me yes
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um that seems to be entirely appropriate
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and part of its
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remit and obviously it presents findings
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from that historical research in the
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form of you know guidebooks and maps and
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human guides who will provide
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information at those
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those properties and that for me
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enriches the experience of visiting some
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of them
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so it seems to me that it is completely
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appropriate for it to be doing that
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research
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and secondly the other important
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question is were the findings of that
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research accurate
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um and it doesn't seem to me that
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anybody is disputing that you know these
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properties did indeed have links with
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slavery and colonialism
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so to me then i couldn't see what the
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problem was with this particular piece
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of research so why suppress it and it
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did
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very much seems to me that that's what
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these mps were keen to do
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um some historical research and say that
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it should never have been done it should
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never have been published
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and and what i thought was particularly
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ironic is they were accusing in that
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letter the national trust of sanitizing
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history
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and it just seemed to me that that they
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were the ones sanitizing the
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history they were doing completely the
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opposite because they were essentially
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saying that you know these aspects of
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our past
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we don't like them they they don't suit
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us they're uncomfortable they they don't
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promote
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their own sorry they're unsanitary
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absolutely they're unsanitary
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we need to sort of cleanse them and it
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seemed to me that you know that
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therefore that accusation really should
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have been directed
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and that it's that specific um event
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that prompted my
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thread i guess the question is since i
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don't work for the national trust or
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speak for the national crosstalk i'm a
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member and i like national
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properties um but why did that bother me
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so much i suppose
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that's what i'm a history teacher um and
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as a history teacher what what interests
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and i'm you know i'm passionate about
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young people
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learning about the past and all its
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complexity um so it seems to me that
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kind of when people try to
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suppress historical research because you
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know they don't like its findings
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um that is a threat to public knowledge
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of history and therefore that's a threat
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to my profession and i i'm just not not
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prepared to stand for that i suppose
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that's where the threats came from
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certainly when i was at school studying
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history uh we didn't
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study anything to do with the british
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empire and i think there was a perhaps a
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period
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where we as educators maybe felt quite
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ashamed about
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britain's role in in the world and
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rather than examining that we
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just avoided it and you know that some
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people might argue that
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now it's a particularly uh appetite time
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to teach
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the british empire in all its you know
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faults with all its of all the things
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that it did which may be positive but
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there were definitely
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there's lots of uh much more negative
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stories out there
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which uh many people will be familiar
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with and if we try and give an
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honest appraisal this happened these
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things
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that you know this this this tiny island
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went out and sort of
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felt they had the right to to govern the
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lives of people on
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all sorts of different continents and
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and i think maybe
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that helps explain to students in
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schools
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who might not feel represented by the
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curriculum might feel you know everyone
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right you know
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the history they're learning about seems
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to be dispro disproportionately
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white it might help explain how did my
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family
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come to this country you know it might
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sort of provide the context to
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make that link as long as we are
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suitably critical of britain's role in
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world history
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does that seem like a sensible option to
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you jonathan yes i think so i think
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you know history acting in some sense as
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a mirror
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um can be very empowering for people and
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so you know i don't come from an ethnic
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minority background
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i come from a white british background
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um but for me when you know there were
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aspects
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of of my sort of family background and
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so on when i remember coming across
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things in history that kind of resonated
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with me
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that was extremely empowering and kind
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of i wanted to know more about them and
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it kind of went beyond just i've got an
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essay to do i need to hand it in and it
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became something that i just wanted to
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know about because that was empowering
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and interesting and fascinating and i
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kind of lapped it up
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and couldn't know enough um and that's
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that's a good thing and where we can do
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that in the curriculum that's lovely i
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would stress
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again the constraints are quite extreme
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and we can't possibly
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ensure that everybody can look in a
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mirror and see their own kind of past if
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you like in the curriculum
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and i think we also need to be careful
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that you know
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it's lovely that i had that experience
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that's great and that had quite a
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profound impact on me as a person
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but i would still draw a distinction
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between saying i'm not convinced that
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was the purpose of the history study
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that was made available to me
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um the fact that i thought that it had
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that impact
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that's great it may well do that but
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it's still valid historical study
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regardless of whether it sort of
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provides that kind of personally
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empowering experience
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um so so definitely um
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that that i've lost my thread now you
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asked me for the second part of that
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question i forgot know what it was but
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but i think that's lovely where it
00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:46.870
happens but it doesn't always happen and
00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:48.389
that doesn't make the history bad if a
00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:50.870
person isn't represented
00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:52.870
jonathan i think i think that was very
00:10:52.880 --> 00:10:55.750
clear i think uh we've got we've come to
00:10:55.760 --> 00:10:57.990
you know we've we've navigated through
00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.230
some some tricky waters there and um and
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.069
i hope that people watching this will
00:11:02.079 --> 00:11:03.670
you know be feel that they're able to
00:11:03.680 --> 00:11:05.670
contribute to an ongoing discussion and
00:11:05.680 --> 00:11:06.230
if people
00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.630
if anyone out there wants to argue um
00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:09.430
against
00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:11.910
jonathan's position uh we'd love to hear
00:11:11.920 --> 00:11:12.710
from you
00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:13.990
and see what you've got to say but
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:15.509
thanks ever so much jonathan for your
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:16.310
time today
00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.590
thank you thank you very much well there
00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:20.069
you go
00:11:20.079 --> 00:11:21.829
so we missed out some of the middle
00:11:21.839 --> 00:11:23.030
sections on that where we talked a
00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:23.910
little bit about
00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:26.150
decolonizing the curriculum and and the
00:11:26.160 --> 00:11:27.829
fact that there are both people on the
00:11:27.839 --> 00:11:29.590
right and people on the left who are
00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:31.110
using history
00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.150
in this ideological politicized way um
00:11:34.160 --> 00:11:35.350
but it's great interview
00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:37.269
um jonathan mann stephens somebody to
00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.590
follow on twitter if you don't already
00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:42.150
i suppose it's quite ironic that we're
00:11:42.160 --> 00:11:43.509
discussing these issues
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.069
in a show with seven white guys all
00:11:46.079 --> 00:11:46.870
together today
00:11:46.880 --> 00:11:48.790
so that's that's quite something we've
00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:51.269
managed to do there
00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:54.389
we can do well we'll try harder we did
00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:55.269
try and
00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:56.790
interview various other people and just
00:11:56.800 --> 00:11:58.629
didn't pan out this week and uh
00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:00.389
the white the white men were just
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:02.790
queuing up saying
00:12:02.800 --> 00:12:05.509
overall if you go to our um youtube site
00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:06.069
you'll see
00:12:06.079 --> 00:12:09.269
lots of people there from um every i was
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:10.389
going to say um
00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:13.430
every sex every gender or or
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.430
but every color every race i mean
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:16.550
obviously not but
00:12:16.560 --> 00:12:19.750
we're we're we do try to get a range of
00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:20.389
people
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:21.910
and not only that martin i think we
00:12:21.920 --> 00:12:23.670
really try to represent a diversity of
00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:24.550
opinion
00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:26.790
definitely probably more important than
00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:27.670
you know the the
00:12:27.680 --> 00:12:29.829
the identity of the of the the person
00:12:29.839 --> 00:12:31.030
holding the opinion
00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:34.069
but um fascinating interview that you
00:12:34.079 --> 00:12:34.470
did
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.670
with um a representative we tried to get
00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:39.350
rachel d'souzo and she sent
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:42.389
a henchman instead to talk
00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:45.829
about uh inspiration trust and
00:12:45.839 --> 00:12:47.910
people might not know but a few years
00:12:47.920 --> 00:12:49.829
ago inspiration trust was
00:12:49.839 --> 00:12:51.750
very much sort of set at its stall as
00:12:51.760 --> 00:12:53.910
quite a traditional
00:12:53.920 --> 00:12:57.269
uh multi academy trust and they
00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.829
and they they recruited all sorts of big
00:12:59.839 --> 00:13:00.389
names
00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.350
from the twittersphere who were perhaps
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:04.870
on the the traditional
00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:07.269
side of the educational split and then
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:08.629
that's more recently that's
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.550
changed and that's something you probed
00:13:10.560 --> 00:13:11.829
into in your interview is that right
00:13:11.839 --> 00:13:12.550
martin
00:13:12.560 --> 00:13:15.350
yeah um it's it's uh interesting point
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:16.069
because
00:13:16.079 --> 00:13:19.190
what i saw on twitter was um about a
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:19.990
conference
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.190
inspiration had arranged and rachel
00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:24.069
tweeted out
00:13:24.079 --> 00:13:26.470
a tweet saying about we become more
00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:27.350
progressive
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.110
if you like yeah i can't remember the
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.590
tweet exactly but it sort of mentioned
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.110
progression within them being
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.750
progressive more progressive so i think
00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:37.670
traditional plus a bit of
00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:39.430
progressiveness et cetera et cetera and
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:40.230
then the
00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.470
the um conference itself was tweeted out
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:44.629
as time went by and it was it was a
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:45.829
really interesting
00:13:45.839 --> 00:13:47.990
number of tweets that caused quite a lot
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.590
of um
00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.949
debate should we say on twitter so
00:13:52.959 --> 00:13:56.710
um the interview with um patrick
00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.509
um we address that and we also address
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.430
lots of other things that they're doing
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.430
um in inspiration trust
00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:04.949
now and i think it's a really
00:14:04.959 --> 00:14:06.710
fascinating and
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.189
wide-ranging interview and of course um
00:14:09.199 --> 00:14:10.629
you'll get a
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.509
first i think 10 minutes of it now and
00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:14.550
please uh
00:14:14.560 --> 00:14:16.150
do subscribe and you'll see the rest of
00:14:16.160 --> 00:14:17.670
it during the week
00:14:17.680 --> 00:14:19.430
brilliant thank you let's go to that now
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.310
martin
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.910
after brexit and we're going to waste
00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:26.710
some time now
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.150
patrick alexander over at inspiration
00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:33.269
trust um patrick how the devil are you
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:34.629
i'm very well martin
00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.750
how are you it's i i hope i'm all right
00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:38.790
it's uh
00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:40.470
it's love it's it's the weather over
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:41.990
here is a bit gray at the moment but
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:42.710
hopefully it'll
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.990
brighten up later um inspiration trust
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:47.910
there's been a few changes there over
00:14:47.920 --> 00:14:48.710
the past
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.189
few months or so we'll talk about those
00:14:51.199 --> 00:14:52.069
in a bit
00:14:52.079 --> 00:14:55.189
but tell me what's your role over there
00:14:55.199 --> 00:14:58.150
and so i started a couple of months ago
00:14:58.160 --> 00:14:59.509
i'm the new director of
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:04.150
curriculum and teacher development
00:15:04.160 --> 00:15:07.590
and that that's very i like
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.030
i like the full stop though that caught
00:15:09.040 --> 00:15:11.350
me somewhat by surprise sorry about that
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.110
um tell me about this role um
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.230
so the trust invested in in uh
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:18.949
curriculum
00:15:18.959 --> 00:15:20.470
i started to invest in curriculum quite
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.069
heavily a few years ago
00:15:22.079 --> 00:15:24.310
um and so there has always been a
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:26.150
director of education or
00:15:26.160 --> 00:15:29.829
curriculum or similar um and
00:15:29.839 --> 00:15:32.949
so but i think this is that this
00:15:32.959 --> 00:15:34.470
uh version of the role is slightly
00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:35.990
different and it encompasses teacher
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:37.749
developments as well
00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.670
so it's about bringing those two aspects
00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:41.269
together into the into
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.710
one area of responsibility
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.430
and where were you before uh well i was
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:48.870
in teacher development
00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:51.749
at teach first so i was working in
00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:52.870
schools
00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:55.749
across london um in initial teacher
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:56.870
training
00:15:56.880 --> 00:16:00.550
um and uh yeah i did a couple of years
00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:01.670
there so that was
00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:03.430
that was that's sort of fed into the
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.110
teachers development aspect here at
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.430
inspiration
00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.670
and you're an english english teacher by
00:16:09.680 --> 00:16:11.509
trade yeah that's right so i
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.230
i um i'm an english specialist um i
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:14.790
trained
00:16:14.800 --> 00:16:17.269
uh through teach first taught in london
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:17.829
um
00:16:17.839 --> 00:16:19.430
for a while then abroad for a couple
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.509
years and then in
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:23.829
um sort of curriculum leadership roles
00:16:23.839 --> 00:16:25.269
in english
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.310
um in a couple of schools in london
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.829
for six years um uh then as a head of
00:16:31.839 --> 00:16:32.310
english
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.710
and then as a freelance consultant
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.949
and um it's it's run by a dame isn't it
00:16:40.959 --> 00:16:44.230
damn rachel de souza who is yes
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:47.430
he's a great leader
00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.910
and there are schools all over mainly
00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:51.590
norfolk i believe and
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.110
i've certainly visited a couple in
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:55.269
norwich there that's right
00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:56.949
coupling suffolk is that right or is
00:16:56.959 --> 00:16:58.949
that yeah yeah
00:16:58.959 --> 00:17:00.629
and tell me how do you know how many
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:01.910
schools there are in the trust or is
00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:03.110
that too much of a
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.710
14. well done
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.270
it's it's the factual questions you see
00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:09.829
so
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:11.669
it's good to see retaining the knowledge
00:17:11.679 --> 00:17:13.669
and
00:17:13.679 --> 00:17:16.309
able to bring it out like well done um
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:17.990
now there's been some changes we were
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.309
talking about because inspiration trust
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.949
was famous or notorious
00:17:22.959 --> 00:17:25.110
for an episode a couple of years ago
00:17:25.120 --> 00:17:26.949
which i'll call the bucket full of sick
00:17:26.959 --> 00:17:27.990
episode
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.990
um it's not quite like that a bucket of
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:31.510
sick not bucket full
00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:33.430
bucket to be sick in let's let's get
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.270
this absolutely right bucket to be sick
00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:35.909
in
00:17:35.919 --> 00:17:37.590
um next to a child or something like
00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:39.350
that i mean it was it was all sorts of
00:17:39.360 --> 00:17:40.950
um
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:42.950
i suppose the press getting hold of
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.390
something and running with it quite a
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:45.350
lot of that
00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:47.669
but tell me um things have changed
00:17:47.679 --> 00:17:49.350
somewhat that was the past this is the
00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:49.909
future
00:17:49.919 --> 00:17:53.430
tell me yeah so um yeah i'm familiar
00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:54.549
with that headline
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.789
um um you know and i think
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:00.070
it would probably be unwise for me to
00:18:00.080 --> 00:18:01.750
talk a lot about it because this is this
00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:02.230
really
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.350
happened before i started um
00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:08.390
you know i know that it was probably a
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:09.669
kind of
00:18:09.679 --> 00:18:12.830
an expression of an attempt to have no
00:18:12.840 --> 00:18:15.590
excuses um
00:18:15.600 --> 00:18:20.230
sort of behavior approach to behavior um
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.789
and to you know really really focus on
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.710
um
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:28.310
making sure that you know lessons were
00:18:28.320 --> 00:18:32.150
um accessible for everybody um
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.870
you know as much as possible uh and i i
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:36.230
think that's
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:37.909
you know that's how i understand it
00:18:37.919 --> 00:18:39.510
looking back but i think this is
00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:43.029
that is part of the past um and
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.789
you know looking forward um
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.669
i suppose yeah we have made some changes
00:18:49.679 --> 00:18:50.310
which we
00:18:50.320 --> 00:18:51.510
which we announced at the conference
00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:53.510
just before half term
00:18:53.520 --> 00:18:56.070
um and i guess we're working quite hard
00:18:56.080 --> 00:18:57.430
on inclusion
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.950
um and equality at the moment so
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.230
it's about um yeah you know i don't
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:05.350
think that was particularly
00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:07.430
helpful headliner i'm not sure if it was
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.270
particularly kind of fair
00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:10.950
um depiction of what was necessarily
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.710
happening in that context but
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.430
um you know certainly paul's gave us
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:16.710
pause for thought
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.310
um and i think what's really nice is
00:19:20.320 --> 00:19:22.470
is we've had an opportunity to to think
00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:24.150
about our identity
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.510
um and what we stand for
00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:31.029
um and that that has
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:32.710
led to the creation of some principles
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.190
which really binds together our thinking
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:39.350
um about that for the years ahead
00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:42.390
okay so you i mean when you say no
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:43.270
excuses i
00:19:43.280 --> 00:19:46.310
i i take it you're not having a a policy
00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:49.909
of excuses now necessarily but
00:19:49.919 --> 00:19:52.789
it's something that um i think um dame
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:53.750
rachel himself
00:19:53.760 --> 00:19:56.870
tweeted before half term
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.510
about moving from traditional to
00:19:59.520 --> 00:20:00.630
progressive which
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.230
obviously two words that um resonate
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.110
in quite a lot of um debates on twitter
00:20:07.120 --> 00:20:08.549
certainly if not
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:10.789
edgy twitter at least um can you tell me
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:12.950
what what she might have meant by that
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.230
well i think it's important to be um
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:18.549
completely clear about what she tweeted
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:19.990
i mean i i
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.549
i can't neces quote the the tweet
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:24.630
verbatim but i think what she said was
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:25.830
she wanted to reclaim the word
00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:27.270
progressive rather than moving from
00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:28.390
traditional to
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.789
too progressive um and of course it's a
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:31.830
bit of a
00:20:31.840 --> 00:20:35.669
you know it's a it's a live rail and in
00:20:35.679 --> 00:20:36.310
a debate
00:20:36.320 --> 00:20:38.630
you know it's it is a it's a word which
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:39.830
has all sorts of
00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:43.270
um associations uh but ultimately i
00:20:43.280 --> 00:20:44.549
think what we're trying to do
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:49.029
is move away from unhelpful binaries um
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:50.950
you know and i was really you know i've
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.669
always felt for for a long time
00:20:53.679 --> 00:20:57.430
um in education um you know i've been
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.830
in education in some shape or form since
00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:02.789
2005. um
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.350
that some of the the language around
00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:08.710
pedagogy curriculum is is unhelpful
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:12.470
um and polarizes debates um
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.430
and you know that kind of leads to sort
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.510
of enormous pendulum swings
00:21:17.520 --> 00:21:19.029
in in policy some of which have been
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.110
really important so i think the reforms
00:21:21.120 --> 00:21:21.990
that the huge
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.350
waves reform that we've seen over the
00:21:23.360 --> 00:21:25.510
last 10 years
00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:28.549
a lot of them um have been
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.669
necessary welcome um in terms of
00:21:31.679 --> 00:21:33.029
thinking about knowledge
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:36.070
in terms of thinking about pedagogy um
00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:37.350
but the problem with you know
00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:39.350
polarization and binaries is that it
00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:40.070
means that
00:21:40.080 --> 00:21:42.630
you know if you if you only think in in
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.149
those terms
00:21:44.159 --> 00:21:46.549
then there's very little room for
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:47.190
subtlety
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.789
nuance um and you know
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:52.390
what you might end up with is a kind of
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.870
and i think this is possibly
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:56.710
something which we try to think about in
00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.070
our principles there's an over
00:21:58.080 --> 00:21:59.190
correction
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:00.789
of one way of thinking let's say
00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:02.549
progressive to another way of thinking
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:03.270
which is
00:22:03.280 --> 00:22:05.270
traditional or new or traditional or
00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:06.789
neo-traditional
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.830
um now the the problem
00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:12.870
with um as i say with that way of
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:14.630
thinking is it tends to
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.789
it tends to create kind of sort of
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:19.669
violent changes in in policy and i think
00:22:19.679 --> 00:22:21.190
you know when rachel said she wanted to
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.110
reclaim um
00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:24.710
the word progressive you'd have to ask
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.470
her what what she what
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:28.390
what she means by that but i you know
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:29.510
for me
00:22:29.520 --> 00:22:32.149
i think the important thing to emphasize
00:22:32.159 --> 00:22:34.149
is that
00:22:34.159 --> 00:22:37.029
if you just hammer away at these uh you
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:38.230
know
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.149
words like traditional then
00:22:42.159 --> 00:22:43.669
you're going to get quite a static
00:22:43.679 --> 00:22:45.110
interpretation of what we're doing in
00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:46.310
schools
00:22:46.320 --> 00:22:49.430
and you know given some of the you know
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:50.950
the cultural debates we've been having
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:52.070
in society
00:22:52.080 --> 00:22:56.470
um you know i think it's
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.070
it's it's timely to consider what being
00:23:00.080 --> 00:23:01.990
purely traditional would really mean in
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:03.190
the school's context and what some of
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.029
the implications of that are
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.390
um because it's it's kind of unfortunate
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.070
the word progressive has got
00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:11.830
had some of the associations it's had in
00:23:11.840 --> 00:23:13.990
education
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:17.270
because we still want even if we don't
00:23:17.280 --> 00:23:19.190
want to use the word progressive because
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.230
you know in instead of 2008 let's say
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:24.549
it meant a purely discovery learning
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:25.350
approach
00:23:25.360 --> 00:23:28.630
with lots of um you know
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:31.909
group work and brain gym and funny hats
00:23:31.919 --> 00:23:34.149
and plasticine all the rest of it
00:23:34.159 --> 00:23:38.149
um you know i think
00:23:38.159 --> 00:23:40.390
now when we're thinking about the ideas
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.950
about oh about progress in society
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.549
it feels unfortunate we can't use the
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:46.310
word progressive in an education context
00:23:46.320 --> 00:23:47.750
so i think that's probably what rachel
00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:48.950
was driving at but
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:51.110
you know again you'd have to ask her
00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:52.230
yeah of course um
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.510
in in terms of progressive
00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:59.029
as an ideal and traditional as an idea i
00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.590
suppose
00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:03.190
i could see that you could get caught in
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.110
that binary and say we are a progressive
00:24:05.120 --> 00:24:06.630
education institution we are a
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:07.190
traditional
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.110
institution and those two things but but
00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:12.149
do the two things sit well together
00:24:12.159 --> 00:24:14.630
as ideas or is there is there an
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:16.549
inherent contradiction there i'll
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:18.630
perhaps give example over the national
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:20.310
trust you know
00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:22.789
that where where the um debate perhaps
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.310
is being had in all sorts of
00:24:24.320 --> 00:24:26.630
institutions whether it's the bbc or
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.470
or the american elections whatever it
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:31.029
happens to be that there is this tension
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:33.350
and whether an institution
00:24:33.360 --> 00:24:36.230
can marry these things together easily
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.470
or not is is in itself an interesting
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:39.350
question
00:24:39.360 --> 00:24:41.590
yeah and i think that's why we've we've
00:24:41.600 --> 00:24:42.870
come with these principles
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:44.310
um which i think will come on to you
00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:47.430
later because
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:48.710
inherent in the design of these
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:50.789
principles is an acknowledgement of that
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:52.310
tension
00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:55.350
um you know
00:24:55.360 --> 00:24:57.510
the structure of the of the principles
00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:00.470
both states for example in curriculum
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:02.549
terms that we are very much
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:06.230
um are thinking is driven by
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.070
uh knowledge the importance of knowledge
00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:09.510
teaching knowledge uh
00:25:09.520 --> 00:25:11.909
powerful knowledge but also
00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:13.029
acknowledging
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:14.950
that that's not a necessarily a fixed
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:16.870
idea you know just
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:18.549
it's important to think about what you
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:19.990
know a canon is
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:23.269
um what has been canonical what
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.269
may be canonical i mean it's impossible
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:26.630
to pick what's going to be canonical in
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:27.590
the future but at least
00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:29.110
acknowledging the importance of debate
00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:31.430
about these things so
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.870
there's a sort of elasticity or
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:34.470
flexibility in our in our principles
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:36.070
which should allow some more
00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:38.310
sophisticated thinking than perhaps
00:25:38.320 --> 00:25:39.590
might have been
00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:43.029
um the case before and that's not to say
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.470
that you know we weren't able to think
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.149
in a nuanced way before that but i think
00:25:46.159 --> 00:25:49.190
trying to articulate it um has felt
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:51.269
important and you know you've just given
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:52.630
some really good examples
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.870
of um contexts where
00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:01.190
um a consideration of those sort of
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:02.549
polarizing
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:05.669
words um needs to be like a band
00:26:05.679 --> 00:26:06.310
together in
00:26:06.320 --> 00:26:09.029
in some way um and so yes really
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:11.350
interesting work
00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:13.750
and you had a conference just before
00:26:13.760 --> 00:26:14.950
half term
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.269
and um you were looking at a variety of
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:18.070
issues
00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:20.710
again this was seen on social media some
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:22.149
some of the stuff was um
00:26:22.159 --> 00:26:24.630
put out there um can you tell me how
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:25.669
that went and what
00:26:25.679 --> 00:26:28.070
was the thinking behind it yeah so the
00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:29.350
theme was equality
00:26:29.360 --> 00:26:32.149
um the year before was inclusion and it
00:26:32.159 --> 00:26:33.029
was just a really
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:34.950
good opportunity for us to get together
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:36.149
um as
00:26:36.159 --> 00:26:39.269
a group of schools uh and consider
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:42.390
um that word um what we're doing
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.909
to try and um make sure that we are
00:26:45.919 --> 00:26:47.190
you know creating the best possible
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.750
opportunities for students in our trust
00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:53.510
i'm here from a range of speakers about
00:26:53.520 --> 00:26:57.269
issues to do with diversity to do with
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:58.870
curriculum
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.870
to do with behavior to do with
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:05.430
making sure that everyone can access the
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:06.870
curriculum that we're delivering
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.470
um and also you know to reflect on
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:13.269
yeah on who we are as a trust um and
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:14.870
some of this new thinking that we've
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:15.430
been
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.470
um putting into our principles and
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:20.470
policy writing um
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:22.950
and sort of a general review of where
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:23.669
we're at and
00:27:23.679 --> 00:27:25.830
assessing our strategy for the next few
00:27:25.840 --> 00:27:27.669
years so
00:27:27.679 --> 00:27:31.269
yeah i think that's it there you go
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.389
i'm treading carefully um
00:27:34.399 --> 00:27:36.389
really really concerned and thought
00:27:36.399 --> 00:27:37.990
about what he was going to say next
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.149
uh it's a great shame that we couldn't
00:27:40.159 --> 00:27:42.149
get rachel herself to tell us what she
00:27:42.159 --> 00:27:42.549
meant
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:45.029
as as patrick said you'll have to ask
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:45.669
her
00:27:45.679 --> 00:27:48.470
well we did try um but martin there's a
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:49.830
lot more in that interview
00:27:49.840 --> 00:27:51.269
do you want to sort of summarize some of
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:53.029
the other things that you
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:54.950
they the i think there's a lot of
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.950
connections with what jonathan was
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:58.549
talking about as well
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:02.389
um and this is how do we
00:28:02.399 --> 00:28:05.750
um create some sort of balance between
00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:08.630
the the idea of this is this is what we
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:10.149
stand for this is
00:28:10.159 --> 00:28:13.269
i suppose flag nation
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:15.909
or you know curriculum canon all these
00:28:15.919 --> 00:28:17.750
sort of big ideas and then
00:28:17.760 --> 00:28:19.669
ideas around how do we critique how do
00:28:19.679 --> 00:28:21.909
we challenge how do we um
00:28:21.919 --> 00:28:24.549
make things uh perhaps slightly
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:26.149
different to reflect
00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:28.549
the modern age that we we now find
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:29.510
ourselves in
00:28:29.520 --> 00:28:31.110
and of course a lot of this has come
00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:32.549
about because of
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.870
various positions people take on the
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:35.750
culture wars
00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:38.070
to give it the shorthand that a lot of
00:28:38.080 --> 00:28:39.750
people give it
00:28:39.760 --> 00:28:42.470
right and it was uh oh it was i i felt
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.549
very old when he said he'd been in
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.669
education since 2005.
00:28:47.679 --> 00:28:51.029
uh there we go um well you know things
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:52.149
move on and
00:28:52.159 --> 00:28:54.230
i think they say about the police that
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:55.830
when they when they look when they look
00:28:55.840 --> 00:28:56.549
younger than you
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.750
are you you know you're old um
00:28:59.760 --> 00:29:01.750
curriculum look you're much younger than
00:29:01.760 --> 00:29:02.950
me so
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:05.430
just to think how i know i know you're
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:06.070
really
00:29:06.080 --> 00:29:08.310
i i dread to think how you're still
00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:09.430
operating i know
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.830
it's at least i'm sitting down well
00:29:11.840 --> 00:29:12.950
that's a relief
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.269
good okay and i'm a bit worried out
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:16.549
about you sitting outside that
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:18.149
distressed looking wall there
00:29:18.159 --> 00:29:20.149
okay get yourself inside and get a hot
00:29:20.159 --> 00:29:21.669
meal i'm not allowed in
00:29:21.679 --> 00:29:24.830
not allowed in ah the wonders of
00:29:24.840 --> 00:29:25.990
technology
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.350
okay so do subscribe and um
00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:31.590
the full interview with patrick
00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:32.549
alexander
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:35.269
uh will be released in the week and as a
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:36.230
sort of
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.310
an advanced warning we're hoping to have
00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:39.350
an interview
00:29:39.360 --> 00:29:43.350
with uh an an ex-employee of inspiration
00:29:43.360 --> 00:29:44.230
trust
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.669
next week to give us their take on the
00:29:47.679 --> 00:29:48.389
story
00:29:48.399 --> 00:29:58.950
actually this is news to me so um
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:00.549
we're going to talk to barry smith and
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:02.230
um and he'll he'll
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:03.430
tell us what he's doing now and what he
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.909
did in the past okay
00:30:05.919 --> 00:30:09.990
so also um he he pops back in at the
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:12.389
beginning of that interview ed clark
00:30:12.399 --> 00:30:14.149
you've also been talking to ed clark
00:30:14.159 --> 00:30:15.590
this week and
00:30:15.600 --> 00:30:18.870
yeah i'd say um talking we're talking
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:20.230
here but the difference between
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.909
tradition and progress we're showing
00:30:23.919 --> 00:30:26.789
perhaps debate between the two and how
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:27.669
schools are
00:30:27.679 --> 00:30:30.870
dealing with it um and with ed ed's a
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:32.789
traditionalist teacher all the way so
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:33.750
much so
00:30:33.760 --> 00:30:35.990
that he he teaches latin which i suppose
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.029
you can't get more
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:39.830
traditional a subject than that and he's
00:30:39.840 --> 00:30:40.789
talking about his
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.750
his latin teaching and also his his
00:30:43.760 --> 00:30:45.350
approach to other things and as i said
00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:46.230
you won't get them
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.669
in in this interview perhaps but uh no i
00:30:49.679 --> 00:30:50.070
certainly
00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:51.430
what you certainly won't get in this
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.269
interview actually but at the end of the
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:55.110
interview which again if you if you
00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:56.870
look out for it during the week he does
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:58.470
some wonderful impressions
00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:00.950
as well so you you're definitely
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.710
watching that in the weeks
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:06.710
we might even release those for short
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.470
because it's such good
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:11.590
anyway let's roll vt and uh listen to
00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:14.549
martin's interview with ed
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:16.470
and now we're going to waste some time
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.470
with ed clark
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.430
or as you can see with his uh his little
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.630
moniker there
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:25.029
clark's latin which might give you a
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:26.310
small
00:31:26.320 --> 00:31:28.070
insight into what he might be talking
00:31:28.080 --> 00:31:29.669
about um ed
00:31:29.679 --> 00:31:32.149
how the devil are you i'm well thank you
00:31:32.159 --> 00:31:33.029
and uh
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:38.549
surviving the coroner apocalypse i think
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.190
ed tell tell our viewers a bit about
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:41.750
yourself
00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:44.149
you're a teacher and you're a latin
00:31:44.159 --> 00:31:45.350
teacher
00:31:45.360 --> 00:31:46.870
tell me how did you get to where you are
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:48.630
now uh well
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.070
um i started out tutoring that was
00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:54.950
in my right event just before i went to
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.630
university i began doing a spot of
00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:57.990
tutoring
00:31:58.000 --> 00:31:59.509
and i taught in the end all through
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.830
doing my my classics degree
00:32:01.840 --> 00:32:04.950
at uh nottingham i was um up north
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.350
for university or at least as up north
00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:08.789
as i've i've ever been
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:12.630
um and uh so i i started teaching then
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:15.590
and then i i graduated in in 2012 and i
00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:16.070
taught
00:32:16.080 --> 00:32:18.549
a couple years at cranley at a senior
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.070
school
00:32:20.080 --> 00:32:22.149
but ultimately i was interested i
00:32:22.159 --> 00:32:23.110
suppose in the
00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:26.870
the prep school um level because
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:28.310
it gives you an opportunity to start the
00:32:28.320 --> 00:32:30.389
language from the very beginning
00:32:30.399 --> 00:32:33.590
and to to really uh to get the kids
00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:35.110
doing what you want them to do to
00:32:35.120 --> 00:32:36.789
approach the language in a
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.029
an analytical way and so forth right
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.909
from the start
00:32:39.919 --> 00:32:43.509
rather than picking up off uh as it were
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.110
where somebody else has left them if you
00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:46.870
see what i mean
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:49.509
um so i so i started teaching at uh at
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:51.430
highfield where i i still am in
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:54.230
in 2014 so i'm still head of classics
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:55.029
there
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:58.389
and i have since uh i've been on the
00:32:58.399 --> 00:33:01.110
the committee which has created the new
00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:02.470
common entrance
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:05.509
uh classics specification that's for for
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:06.389
icb
00:33:06.399 --> 00:33:09.029
the uh the independent schools exam
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:10.789
board
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.950
so i've helped to create the new common
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:13.909
entrance and
00:33:13.919 --> 00:33:15.909
uh in a sense i've i've created a whole
00:33:15.919 --> 00:33:18.470
load of resources in the shapes of
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.190
shape of clark's latin to to go with it
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:22.549
uh i'm also the
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.909
iapps classics advisor i do their
00:33:25.919 --> 00:33:27.669
conferences each year i've done keynote
00:33:27.679 --> 00:33:28.389
latin
00:33:28.399 --> 00:33:31.190
conferences as well and i've written in
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:31.590
the
00:33:31.600 --> 00:33:34.470
spectator and the tes and a few other
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:35.590
bits and pieces
00:33:35.600 --> 00:33:38.789
and i guess i i campaign for
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.830
traditional knowledge based sort of old
00:33:41.840 --> 00:33:42.549
school teaching
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:45.269
i would suggest and you don't get much
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.590
more old school than latin i suppose can
00:33:47.600 --> 00:33:48.630
you can you just you
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:54.149
you threw an acronym at me an acronym
00:33:54.159 --> 00:33:55.909
oh yes that that's the uh the
00:33:55.919 --> 00:33:58.230
independent association of prep schools
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:00.870
um which uh it makes me laugh a little
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:01.430
at my
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.549
my old prep school um which was quite uh
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:08.230
all very evil in war um i i was at
00:34:08.240 --> 00:34:11.510
melbourne in the the late 90s and
00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:13.030
the headmaster was a man called norman
00:34:13.040 --> 00:34:15.990
hale who was head for 51 years
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:19.510
he went from 1948 to 1999
00:34:19.520 --> 00:34:21.589
and i think was in his 80s when i when i
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:23.270
got to the school so he was quite a
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:24.389
formidable
00:34:24.399 --> 00:34:26.310
character he once uh picked me up by the
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:27.990
hair because i didn't know the
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.790
difference between oro ibeg and aura the
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:31.510
shore
00:34:31.520 --> 00:34:34.790
which i've subsequently never forgotten
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:37.190
but but i think we we were thrown out of
00:34:37.200 --> 00:34:39.270
iaps in the 90s because he wouldn't
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:40.710
allow inspections
00:34:40.720 --> 00:34:42.629
uh and he he felt that inspectors were
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:44.869
just there to look at the plumbing and
00:34:44.879 --> 00:34:47.349
he would escort them from the premises
00:34:47.359 --> 00:34:48.149
um but
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:49.909
i think they've since been been welcomed
00:34:49.919 --> 00:34:53.030
back into the fold
00:34:53.040 --> 00:34:55.030
i won't ask if he's still there but um
00:34:55.040 --> 00:34:57.270
he did he did retire a couple of years
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:57.670
after
00:34:57.680 --> 00:34:59.750
right that might be let me do it because
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.150
violence latin is is a certain approach
00:35:02.160 --> 00:35:03.270
that um
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.069
some people do um swear by of course now
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:06.470
this
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.870
something i keep saying to people when
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:09.829
when they ask me
00:35:09.839 --> 00:35:12.550
about curriculum content and i say
00:35:12.560 --> 00:35:14.710
latin's not for posh people
00:35:14.720 --> 00:35:16.230
and i'm suddenly thinking actually this
00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:18.069
interview might be proving the opposite
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:21.750
is irrational to posh people well i mean
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.510
it's it's one of the issues really that
00:35:23.520 --> 00:35:25.670
if you wind up being a classicist more
00:35:25.680 --> 00:35:27.270
likely than not
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:29.109
you know you've been privately educated
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:31.910
because unfortunately the bulk of um
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:33.430
of the the latin and greek teaching that
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.109
goes on certainly does tend to be in the
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:36.069
private system and
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.109
that is a really sad thing um and it's
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:40.790
it's been wonderful seeing groups like
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:42.230
classics for all
00:35:42.240 --> 00:35:45.030
um cropping up and trying to expand it
00:35:45.040 --> 00:35:45.910
into
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.470
into the state system i did go and speak
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:49.270
at the
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:51.109
the east london science school a couple
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:52.870
of years ago um
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:54.550
and and they've got a wonderful classics
00:35:54.560 --> 00:35:56.230
department and the kids were very clued
00:35:56.240 --> 00:35:58.069
up i gave a talk on ancient history for
00:35:58.079 --> 00:35:58.870
them
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:00.870
um so i think with some of the new
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:02.790
academies and free schools and that sort
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:03.750
of thing
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:06.550
uh a degree of classics has has come
00:36:06.560 --> 00:36:07.349
back and there's
00:36:07.359 --> 00:36:09.829
been a minor renaissance in in recent
00:36:09.839 --> 00:36:11.430
years i would suggest
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:14.069
um but it is still rather the preserve
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:15.190
of the private sector which is
00:36:15.200 --> 00:36:16.550
definitely a shame
00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:19.670
um because there's just so much to to
00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:20.470
offer
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:22.950
in its own right and in terms of backing
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.270
up other subjects as well
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:27.190
it's an interesting point as well that
00:36:27.200 --> 00:36:28.390
some um
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.870
state schools are moving towards a
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:32.470
classics curriculum but
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.630
not going the full the whole hog with
00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:36.230
with latin or ancient greek
00:36:36.240 --> 00:36:38.790
or doing the language as such so some
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:39.510
bring it in
00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:42.310
at lunchtime or after school as a sort
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:43.829
of club activity
00:36:43.839 --> 00:36:45.510
and where does it belong out of interest
00:36:45.520 --> 00:36:47.270
do you think it belongs in a languages
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:48.230
department or
00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:51.670
in a ancient history classics department
00:36:51.680 --> 00:36:52.950
perhaps
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.750
a little of both i suppose um i mean
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:57.910
it's uh whenever anybody discusses
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.030
and i i hate this word at uh
00:37:00.040 --> 00:37:01.510
cross-curricularity
00:37:01.520 --> 00:37:04.710
um and the the the the links between
00:37:04.720 --> 00:37:06.069
various departments
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:08.950
um i i tend to say that really it's um
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:09.670
it's not for
00:37:09.680 --> 00:37:11.510
for latin to show its uh links with
00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:12.790
everything else for everything else to
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:14.310
show how it comes from latin
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.950
i mean uh uh so many of the subjects on
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:17.670
the curriculum
00:37:17.680 --> 00:37:20.150
have connections with the ancient world
00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:21.430
uh and i think you always have to
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:22.470
proceed on both
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:25.109
both fronts uh there was i think there
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:27.030
was an attitude in years gone by
00:37:27.040 --> 00:37:28.550
that um that ancient history of
00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:30.950
classical civilization was a bit sort of
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:33.589
uh roman domestic science and the
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.030
languages were the
00:37:35.040 --> 00:37:38.150
the proper stuff and i'm happy to say
00:37:38.160 --> 00:37:39.750
that i think these days
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.230
um it's a much more broad business than
00:37:42.240 --> 00:37:44.230
that in fact i'm quite excited that one
00:37:44.240 --> 00:37:45.670
of the the changes we've been able to
00:37:45.680 --> 00:37:46.310
make with
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:47.910
uh with common entrance is the
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:49.910
introduction of a classical civilization
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:51.589
paper which we didn't have before
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.190
there was a little section at the end of
00:37:53.200 --> 00:37:55.030
latin on classif
00:37:55.040 --> 00:37:56.950
and we've now got it as a subject in its
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:58.069
own right
00:37:58.079 --> 00:37:59.990
but i think it can sit comfortably in in
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.670
either of those worlds it's wonderful if
00:38:01.680 --> 00:38:03.030
people are able to
00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:05.430
study the language whether that's you
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.230
know
00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:09.109
ideally on timetable but as a as a club
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:10.550
or whatever you know schools do make
00:38:10.560 --> 00:38:11.190
that
00:38:11.200 --> 00:38:14.630
that work um you know but equally it's
00:38:14.640 --> 00:38:15.910
it's very much at home
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:17.910
uh with with its links to history and of
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:20.069
course our own history in terms of
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.589
uh of roman britain
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:27.030
now where you do a lot of work for
00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:30.790
what in the not in prep schools but um
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:31.190
so
00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:34.550
for in the state sector sort of primary
00:38:34.560 --> 00:38:35.510
age
00:38:35.520 --> 00:38:38.630
and key stage three i suppose
00:38:38.640 --> 00:38:41.190
so we our kids sometimes will leave at
00:38:41.200 --> 00:38:42.230
the end of year six
00:38:42.240 --> 00:38:43.910
and go to senior schools that then start
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.990
at year seven but most of our kids will
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.430
end uh ending year eight and then start
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:51.349
public schools in uh the beginning of
00:38:51.359 --> 00:38:53.109
year nine so yes we
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.349
bridge primary and the beginning of
00:38:55.359 --> 00:38:56.790
secondary i suppose
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.349
which is a very good it's a good age
00:38:59.359 --> 00:39:01.349
range really for
00:39:01.359 --> 00:39:03.910
in terms of the mind being a sponge at
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:06.390
that point in time i think that you know
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:09.430
once you get into proper teenager hood
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:11.430
uh you know you become a bit of a
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.510
write-off for a between then
00:39:13.520 --> 00:39:16.710
and and a levels um whereas i think up
00:39:16.720 --> 00:39:18.390
to the age of 13 they're beginning to
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.230
get a bit teenagery by the end
00:39:20.240 --> 00:39:22.550
um but the but their minds are very good
00:39:22.560 --> 00:39:24.150
and very good at soaking up
00:39:24.160 --> 00:39:26.950
information and uh i certainly if i i've
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.109
benefited hugely from that myself having
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.270
gone to a very old-fashioned
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:33.670
um prep school that was very rigorous
00:39:33.680 --> 00:39:34.950
academically
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:36.950
so for example most of my teaching these
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.270
days is latin i tutor a bit of greek
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:41.670
um but i haven't taught it full-time for
00:39:41.680 --> 00:39:43.270
many years now
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.790
which is a shame and it means that my
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:46.710
greek sometimes gets a bit rusty
00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:49.190
but as soon as i pick it up again uh
00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:51.030
suddenly my mind will go
00:39:51.040 --> 00:39:53.589
laura my louis louis thailand or
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:54.950
whatever it's all there
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.550
because i learned to age 11 or 12.
00:39:58.560 --> 00:40:00.150
i think i will probably end up taking it
00:40:00.160 --> 00:40:02.230
to the grave you know it's
00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:05.109
it's already built um so it's a it's a
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:06.870
fun time to teach and that's
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:09.349
because they really do pick things up
00:40:09.359 --> 00:40:09.990
and then go on
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.790
to apply them at senior schools and we
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:14.470
hear nice things back from the senior
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:15.349
schools about
00:40:15.359 --> 00:40:17.030
how they're getting on which is very
00:40:17.040 --> 00:40:19.190
rewarding because it is also for
00:40:19.200 --> 00:40:20.790
teenagers of course
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:23.430
very very very much so yeah and i mean
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:24.630
indeed for the
00:40:24.640 --> 00:40:26.550
it's funny to think i mean i i sat my
00:40:26.560 --> 00:40:28.309
scholarship i'm now 30.
00:40:28.319 --> 00:40:30.309
so i sat my scholarship exam for senior
00:40:30.319 --> 00:40:32.630
school 17 years ago
00:40:32.640 --> 00:40:35.030
uh i can still set the papers from that
00:40:35.040 --> 00:40:36.150
that era
00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:38.150
um you know nothing much has changed in
00:40:38.160 --> 00:40:39.750
the last 20 years in terms of the
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:41.349
standard that's required
00:40:41.359 --> 00:40:44.230
which is about a.s level i suppose for
00:40:44.240 --> 00:40:44.710
latin
00:40:44.720 --> 00:40:46.309
so it's jolly difficult still all of
00:40:46.319 --> 00:40:47.910
those kind of um eaton
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:50.870
westminster um kind of that standard is
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:51.190
still
00:40:51.200 --> 00:40:54.309
very very high with i might add a
00:40:54.319 --> 00:40:56.550
fraction of the teaching time that i had
00:40:56.560 --> 00:40:57.829
when i was a kid
00:40:57.839 --> 00:40:59.349
uh you know we had a huge amount of
00:40:59.359 --> 00:41:01.589
latin on the on the timetable which
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:03.270
doesn't tend so much to be the
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:05.270
case these days so it can be a bit of a
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:06.630
challenge but um
00:41:06.640 --> 00:41:08.390
it's still a very high standard that's
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:09.750
uh that's reached for us
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:13.430
age 13. now you
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.230
came across sorry i came across you
00:41:16.240 --> 00:41:16.950
recently
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:19.670
about the latin primer that you've put
00:41:19.680 --> 00:41:21.030
together
00:41:21.040 --> 00:41:24.230
now um when i was at school
00:41:24.240 --> 00:41:27.030
things were i did a year of latin that
00:41:27.040 --> 00:41:28.630
was very disappointing
00:41:28.640 --> 00:41:31.030
in interstate school that used to be a
00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:32.790
grammar school so a comprehensive
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:34.870
and it all fell apart very quickly but
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.270
um i remember doing cambridge latin so
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.190
it was all calculus and i forget the
00:41:39.200 --> 00:41:39.589
other
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:41.190
names what what's your opinion of
00:41:41.200 --> 00:41:43.109
cambridge latin i i must
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:45.510
admit perhaps reluctantly to being a
00:41:45.520 --> 00:41:46.230
skeptic
00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:47.910
um when it comes to the cambridge latin
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:49.750
course and it was principally
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:51.270
really because of it that i started
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:52.950
writing my own resources i
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:56.150
published my first book uh variatio um
00:41:56.160 --> 00:41:57.190
some years back now
00:41:57.200 --> 00:42:00.309
2015. i'd written it in my early 20s um
00:42:00.319 --> 00:42:03.430
because i wanted i guess the guiding
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.750
principle of variatio and subsequently
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.109
the books that i've i've written
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:08.069
recently
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:10.230
but i always wanted the student not only
00:42:10.240 --> 00:42:12.630
to know what the latin in question meant
00:42:12.640 --> 00:42:16.309
but why um why is it that kaikelius
00:42:16.319 --> 00:42:18.230
estinhorto which is the the legendary
00:42:18.240 --> 00:42:20.630
first line of the cambridge latin
00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:22.630
we all know that it means kaikelius is
00:42:22.640 --> 00:42:23.750
in the garden and that's quite
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:24.870
self-explanatory
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:28.470
but why does it mean that um and i think
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:30.470
it becomes immediately apparent for uh
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:32.630
for a bright and perceptive student
00:42:32.640 --> 00:42:35.190
looking at that phrase will say okay
00:42:35.200 --> 00:42:35.750
well
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.990
if i look up horto in the dictionary i
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:39.670
find that the latin word for garden is a
00:42:39.680 --> 00:42:40.710
hortus
00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:42.550
so why is it got an o on the end of it
00:42:42.560 --> 00:42:44.550
why is it in horton
00:42:44.560 --> 00:42:46.309
how would it be different if it were in
00:42:46.319 --> 00:42:47.829
hortum
00:42:47.839 --> 00:42:50.069
why is the verb est in the middle of the
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:51.510
sentence when usually
00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:53.190
verbs are relegated to the end of a
00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:54.790
latin sentence and you have
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.430
all of these questions which i fear go
00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:58.069
largely
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:01.829
unanswered um and uh i think both of my
00:43:01.839 --> 00:43:02.630
parents
00:43:02.640 --> 00:43:05.190
studied with the with the clc back in i
00:43:05.200 --> 00:43:06.150
suppose the
00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:08.630
the early 80s for o level and both of
00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:10.150
them found the same thing that they
00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:11.910
initially felt very confident about
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:13.829
translating latin
00:43:13.839 --> 00:43:15.589
but when it actually came to doing their
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.990
first o level unseen translation
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:19.349
completely fell apart because
00:43:19.359 --> 00:43:21.270
essentially they didn't have
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:23.109
the understanding of the workings of the
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:25.349
language so obviously that's a problem
00:43:25.359 --> 00:43:26.630
when it comes to actually having to
00:43:26.640 --> 00:43:28.470
translate stuff and knowing what you're
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:29.589
talking about
00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:32.950
uh but also i think there is often
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:36.470
a uh a sense in modern education that in
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:38.390
order to make something enjoyable it
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:39.750
needs to be simplified
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:41.430
and i think quite often the the very
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:42.950
opposite is true
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.670
talking around discovery at some point
00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:46.950
because
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:49.990
there if i go into schools and i say
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.550
teach latin is a great thing to teach
00:43:52.560 --> 00:43:53.670
you know but of course there's not
00:43:53.680 --> 00:43:53.990
enough
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:57.670
latin teachers out there so is there a
00:43:57.680 --> 00:43:58.390
way
00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:01.270
that you know me with my one year latin
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:03.670
and that was cambridge latin and
00:44:03.680 --> 00:44:07.670
estin horto is all i remember yeah um
00:44:07.680 --> 00:44:10.710
can i pick up one of your books perhaps
00:44:10.720 --> 00:44:11.829
and give it a go
00:44:11.839 --> 00:44:13.990
well i i would very much hope so and i
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.470
mean loath though i am to embark upon a
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:18.309
sales pitch
00:44:18.319 --> 00:44:22.230
for my books a snippet uh 11.99
00:44:22.240 --> 00:44:24.870
available from the website thank you uh
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:26.630
for aiding and abetting me in that
00:44:26.640 --> 00:44:29.910
um yes i mean in point of fact it is a
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:31.430
consideration for me
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:34.710
um but school whether um we're
00:44:34.720 --> 00:44:36.069
happy to say that our numbers are
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:38.390
growing at the moment um and we're we're
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.470
expanding in certain year brews to extra
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:42.150
threat so there is a possibility in
00:44:42.160 --> 00:44:44.230
years to come that i i may have to
00:44:44.240 --> 00:44:46.790
find myself an apprentice amongst our
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:47.990
assistant teachers
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:51.030
um but certainly um i i like to think
00:44:51.040 --> 00:44:52.950
that the books are very methodical
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:54.950
um obviously you know for the children's
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:56.710
benefit but also i think any adult
00:44:56.720 --> 00:44:58.150
picking up the language
00:44:58.160 --> 00:45:00.150
um would rattle through the first couple
00:45:00.160 --> 00:45:01.750
of volumes of clark's latin pretty
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:02.470
speedily
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:04.710
and certainly the the rudimentary stuff
00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:06.390
you're really dealing with
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:08.630
ost must descend the six endings of the
00:45:08.640 --> 00:45:10.069
the present tense
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.150
um and a few noun cases in the first
00:45:12.160 --> 00:45:14.630
declension but it's it's very limited
00:45:14.640 --> 00:45:16.710
um and of course as i'm always talking
00:45:16.720 --> 00:45:17.990
about with the children and they find
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.069
it very interesting there's so much
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:21.750
english etymology
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:23.750
that derives from latin we've got
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:25.829
thousands and thousands of derivations
00:45:25.839 --> 00:45:27.430
um which are very helpful for
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:29.910
remembering all of the vocabulary and
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:33.670
that sort of that should encourage you
00:45:33.680 --> 00:45:36.870
to take up latin again david
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.390
when you say again i actually did an
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.829
a level in classical studies or um which
00:45:43.839 --> 00:45:45.190
as it was then i think it's called
00:45:45.200 --> 00:45:47.030
classical civilization now
00:45:47.040 --> 00:45:49.510
uh where we we studied the classics in
00:45:49.520 --> 00:45:50.390
translation
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.710
um because obviously i'm a state school
00:45:52.720 --> 00:45:53.750
boy i didn't
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.069
i didn't have any of that posh stuff uh
00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:57.910
but i yeah i have to say most i
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:01.750
absolutely loved reading tacitus
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:04.309
and uh what else would we do we did the
00:46:04.319 --> 00:46:05.030
orist
00:46:05.040 --> 00:46:08.069
orostar aeschylus we did a bit of homer
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:10.230
obviously which uh which is superb and i
00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:10.950
still love to
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:14.230
this day and i do i i do feel
00:46:14.240 --> 00:46:18.150
uh that um that that reading these
00:46:18.160 --> 00:46:20.069
having access to these texts is a
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:21.270
wonderful thing
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:24.069
um whether or not we have to speak the
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:25.109
original languages
00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:27.990
i i don't know but i am inspired by this
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.670
story in tom holland
00:46:29.680 --> 00:46:33.270
who um a few years ago uh he
00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:36.309
he did a translation of herodotus
00:46:36.319 --> 00:46:40.309
and he decided to learn ancient greek in
00:46:40.319 --> 00:46:41.589
order to do this which
00:46:41.599 --> 00:46:43.670
i have to say my hat's off to tom
00:46:43.680 --> 00:46:44.710
holland who
00:46:44.720 --> 00:46:46.950
is obviously a much better human being
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:47.990
than i am
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:49.790
that was a that was a that was an
00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:51.270
unexpectedly
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.829
um that was that was like slow radio on
00:46:54.839 --> 00:46:55.510
youtube a
00:46:55.520 --> 00:46:58.790
lovely thing um i've not come across him
00:46:58.800 --> 00:46:59.589
before but
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:01.910
uh but i think he's well worth he's well
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.109
worth following on twitter
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:06.390
and and also he he gave a good hat tip
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:08.150
there to classics for all
00:47:08.160 --> 00:47:10.069
who are well worth contacting if your
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:11.589
school or
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:14.710
is interested at all in teaching any of
00:47:14.720 --> 00:47:16.550
whether it be classical civilization
00:47:16.560 --> 00:47:19.990
or or latin or greek indeed or any any
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:21.270
other sort of uh
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:24.230
particularly uh focus on that ancient
00:47:24.240 --> 00:47:24.870
ancient
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:27.430
time and um get in touch with them
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:29.270
because they've got loads of resources
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:30.150
and also
00:47:30.160 --> 00:47:33.270
can supply teachers for free to
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:36.829
state schools to um fly the flag for the
00:47:36.839 --> 00:47:38.069
classics
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:40.710
excellent my um believe it or not i mean
00:47:40.720 --> 00:47:42.069
obviously i'm an awake that doesn't know
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:43.750
any of this stuff but my brother-in-law
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.870
currently deputy head at harrow
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:49.589
about to take over as headmaster at st
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:50.710
edwards in oxford
00:47:50.720 --> 00:47:53.510
is a classicist and uh you know i don't
00:47:53.520 --> 00:47:54.069
know
00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:55.670
all of these people they're a bit scary
00:47:55.680 --> 00:47:58.630
aren't we but anyway lovely fascinating
00:47:58.640 --> 00:48:01.190
interview thank you for that martin and
00:48:01.200 --> 00:48:03.829
to round things off this week
00:48:03.839 --> 00:48:07.270
we've got our interview with uh
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:11.109
authors of uh a john cat published a
00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:12.230
book we've got
00:48:12.240 --> 00:48:16.150
david bott and jared horvath who
00:48:16.160 --> 00:48:18.069
as i said earlier i spoke to this
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:19.510
morning uh down
00:48:19.520 --> 00:48:21.589
under uh so they were busy you know
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:22.549
knocking back the
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:24.309
backing not knocking about the scotch
00:48:24.319 --> 00:48:26.630
after a hard day's work and i was there
00:48:26.640 --> 00:48:30.069
um just digesting my album um but we
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:31.829
talked about their their book that
00:48:31.839 --> 00:48:33.589
they've co-written ten things that
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:34.870
schools are getting wrong
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.750
and it's a it's a fascinating and again
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:39.829
a wide-ranging interview
00:48:39.839 --> 00:48:41.510
and we've got a little snippet here
00:48:41.520 --> 00:48:43.030
which talks about some of the
00:48:43.040 --> 00:48:46.230
some bits about about teacher expertise
00:48:46.240 --> 00:48:48.069
but let's uh let's have a look at that
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:49.430
though
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.390
okay so we've got jared cooney horvath
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:53.910
and david bott the
00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:56.390
co-writers of a great new book from john
00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:58.390
katz which is 10 things schools get
00:48:58.400 --> 00:48:59.030
wrong
00:48:59.040 --> 00:49:02.069
and how we can get them right and
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:04.710
i um i read i read through this last
00:49:04.720 --> 00:49:05.750
night and i was thinking you know i
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:06.630
hadn't looked today
00:49:06.640 --> 00:49:08.870
you know full disclosure and i was
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:10.150
thinking oh no i've got to read this
00:49:10.160 --> 00:49:11.910
book in front of this interview oh you
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:12.630
know it's going to be
00:49:12.640 --> 00:49:14.150
it's going to be a hard slog and i was
00:49:14.160 --> 00:49:16.069
riveted i always found it compelling and
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:17.990
i and i went for it in one sitting
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:21.190
uh loved it um loads of things in there
00:49:21.200 --> 00:49:21.670
that
00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:24.230
uh that i want to talk to you about but
00:49:24.240 --> 00:49:26.069
um tell me a little bit before we get
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:27.829
going how did you guys
00:49:27.839 --> 00:49:29.349
come to write this book together what's
00:49:29.359 --> 00:49:31.190
the story behind the book
00:49:31.200 --> 00:49:34.150
it is so i think i david has been
00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:34.630
working
00:49:34.640 --> 00:49:37.510
in melbourne forever um at a school down
00:49:37.520 --> 00:49:39.190
south and i just moved here
00:49:39.200 --> 00:49:42.390
a while ago and lo and behold we knew
00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:43.829
each other existed like i knew you were
00:49:43.839 --> 00:49:45.589
around today but we just never
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:48.870
met each other until one day i got to do
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:49.510
a couple of
00:49:49.520 --> 00:49:50.950
uh sessions with the school with the
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:53.109
students there and we just kept bumping
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:54.790
after each session we would sit there
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:56.710
and bs a little bit and he would always
00:49:56.720 --> 00:49:57.990
push me back he would
00:49:58.000 --> 00:49:59.589
didn't matter what i said it could have
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:01.349
been the best thing in the world
00:50:01.359 --> 00:50:02.870
and he would have come up and said yeah
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:04.390
but have you thought about this he's
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:05.589
done maybe you're one of them
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:08.230
he's that guy well it's because most of
00:50:08.240 --> 00:50:10.150
what you say is rubbish jared that's why
00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:12.790
i just clarify things for you and i
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:14.390
didn't know until you pointed out so
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:14.790
that's
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:16.710
so eventually you just keep talking you
00:50:16.720 --> 00:50:18.549
talk over a couple of beers you go to
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:20.150
each other's houses and you say hey
00:50:20.160 --> 00:50:21.430
and it was you you said you want to
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:23.190
write a book i've got a title
00:50:23.200 --> 00:50:25.750
and i go absolutely and then lay it out
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:27.190
and the rest is history
00:50:27.200 --> 00:50:30.309
yeah yeah i think i think these are
00:50:30.319 --> 00:50:32.630
i've been in education for been teaching
00:50:32.640 --> 00:50:34.710
for 15 years before i met jared
00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:37.190
and these kind of ten things have been
00:50:37.200 --> 00:50:39.270
percolating for all of those years
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:41.430
and i've never really had the i don't
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:43.829
know the impetus the courage to to put
00:50:43.839 --> 00:50:44.710
them into words
00:50:44.720 --> 00:50:46.630
and i think with jared's expertise
00:50:46.640 --> 00:50:48.150
around the learning science and
00:50:48.160 --> 00:50:50.470
neuroscience it just added a layer of
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:52.950
sophistication to my kind of intuitive
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:54.230
thinking around education
00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:56.870
so it felt like a really uh a nice
00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:57.430
marriage
00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.430
not a marriage in that way although no
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:00.470
no no
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:01.829
i shouldn't do it in public should i
00:51:01.839 --> 00:51:04.150
propose no no no but it did feel like a
00:51:04.160 --> 00:51:05.910
nice mix a nice blend of our skills and
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:06.870
backgrounds so
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:10.390
it it's really fun to write okay so
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.270
we've got these ten things that schools
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:14.150
are doing wrongs they've been
00:51:14.160 --> 00:51:15.589
percolating in the back of your mind
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:16.549
david for
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:18.150
countless years jared comes along with
00:51:18.160 --> 00:51:19.750
his newfangled science
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:22.710
and gives you intellectual permission um
00:51:22.720 --> 00:51:24.150
for those ideas to take
00:51:24.160 --> 00:51:26.230
more shape let's go through and think
00:51:26.240 --> 00:51:27.430
about some of those
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.470
ideas so the first one essentially is
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:34.470
that um it's about the profession of
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:35.109
teaching
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:37.829
and the the while while teaching meets
00:51:37.839 --> 00:51:39.829
various sort of tics on what it means to
00:51:39.839 --> 00:51:40.870
be a profession
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:43.750
it fails on one particular account in
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:44.710
the
00:51:44.720 --> 00:51:46.870
the the the experts who are at the
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:47.750
forefront
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:50.150
of telling you of deciding what teachers
00:51:50.160 --> 00:51:52.230
do don't tend to be teachers and so
00:51:52.240 --> 00:51:54.670
teachers are for instance very
00:51:54.680 --> 00:51:55.910
underrepresented
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:59.349
at um education conferences and
00:51:59.359 --> 00:52:02.549
um and that that we
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:04.870
rely on people from outside the
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:05.829
profession
00:52:05.839 --> 00:52:08.230
to give us guidance on on what we should
00:52:08.240 --> 00:52:09.109
be doing can you
00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:10.630
can you tell us a little bit about this
00:52:10.640 --> 00:52:13.109
as an idea yeah so that's
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:14.390
and i think most teachers would
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:16.630
recognize this is this is that
00:52:16.640 --> 00:52:20.309
those who can't do teach type of kind of
00:52:20.319 --> 00:52:22.069
concept where hey i've been to school i
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:23.190
know how to teach i've worked with
00:52:23.200 --> 00:52:24.950
teachers i know how to teach and
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.270
for so long teachers have been seen as
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:29.030
cogs in a wheel
00:52:29.040 --> 00:52:31.510
and and actually i'm not making this up
00:52:31.520 --> 00:52:32.870
i was at a government meeting a couple
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:33.750
years ago
00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:35.990
and there were no teachers present at
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:37.270
all at that meeting there was
00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:39.109
researchers neuroscientists lawyers
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:40.230
politicians
00:52:40.240 --> 00:52:41.829
and when i said hey why is there no
00:52:41.839 --> 00:52:43.430
teachers here
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:45.190
the explanation was because they're
00:52:45.200 --> 00:52:47.190
simply levers we're pulling
00:52:47.200 --> 00:52:49.349
the kids are the the ones we care about
00:52:49.359 --> 00:52:50.950
and we're the ones making the decisions
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:51.910
and they're the ones who just have to
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:53.510
make this stuff happen
00:52:53.520 --> 00:52:55.670
and that's i'm sorry complete and utter
00:52:55.680 --> 00:52:57.430
nonsense to me but i think they've been
00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.750
brow beaten for so long so i was a
00:52:59.760 --> 00:52:59.990
teacher
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:01.430
back in the day so i recognized it from
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.990
20 years ago you get brow beaten so long
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.069
and told that the answer lies somewhere
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:06.549
else
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:08.710
that you stop looking to yourself for
00:53:08.720 --> 00:53:10.230
that answer you start waiting for the
00:53:10.240 --> 00:53:11.990
world to tell you what's the answer to
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.670
teaching can you write a book that tells
00:53:13.680 --> 00:53:13.990
me do
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.069
these 10 things don't do these 10 things
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:17.670
and at the end of the day if the one
00:53:17.680 --> 00:53:19.270
thing you take away from this book is
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:20.069
that
00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:21.829
teachers by the very definition of the
00:53:21.839 --> 00:53:23.510
word expertise
00:53:23.520 --> 00:53:25.670
they are the experts at the craft of
00:53:25.680 --> 00:53:27.589
teaching so the only answers we'll ever
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:28.870
get about what teaching
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:31.750
is how it should work how to do it best
00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:33.030
has to come from them
00:53:33.040 --> 00:53:35.109
everyone else is just talking i could
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:36.950
tell you about dentistry
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:39.190
because i brush my teeth but until i'm a
00:53:39.200 --> 00:53:40.950
dentist working on the ground 24 7
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:42.390
hopefully you don't trust me with any of
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:43.109
that stuff
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:44.309
if that's what we tend to do with
00:53:44.319 --> 00:53:46.470
teaching right okay so
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:48.630
so david if that if that if we accept
00:53:48.640 --> 00:53:50.549
that argument it does seem as you say to
00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:52.630
china with teachers experience
00:53:52.640 --> 00:53:54.549
what should we do how do we how do we
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:56.150
solve the problem how do we
00:53:56.160 --> 00:53:59.190
get teachers at the heart of the the
00:53:59.200 --> 00:54:00.790
discussion about what teaching should
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:02.870
look like
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:05.910
yeah i i think first of all it's we want
00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:07.510
teachers to believe in themselves
00:54:07.520 --> 00:54:10.630
and i think from what we've seen in a
00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:13.270
we argue really in the book that the um
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:15.030
it's really that lack of belief in
00:54:15.040 --> 00:54:17.349
themselves that is the core problem here
00:54:17.359 --> 00:54:19.750
um and as jared said you know teachers
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:20.470
spend
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.109
a thousand hours a year face-to-face
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:24.069
with students and
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:26.150
build up this incredible skill set
00:54:26.160 --> 00:54:27.589
throughout their careers
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:30.230
uh and a level of expertise that you
00:54:30.240 --> 00:54:31.750
know that no one else outside of the
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:33.589
profession can have in that craft of
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:34.710
being in front of students and
00:54:34.720 --> 00:54:35.990
delivering content and nurturing
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.309
well-being and inspiring students
00:54:38.319 --> 00:54:41.670
and so we we
00:54:41.680 --> 00:54:43.829
we feel that the first starting point is
00:54:43.839 --> 00:54:45.430
for teachers to believe that they are
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:47.910
experts to know that they are experts
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.230
and then to create a system that enables
00:54:50.240 --> 00:54:52.230
the the sharing the collaboration
00:54:52.240 --> 00:54:54.230
and the the accumulation and
00:54:54.240 --> 00:54:55.510
dissemination of
00:54:55.520 --> 00:54:57.190
of knowledge that comes from those
00:54:57.200 --> 00:54:59.109
experts so collect collecting that
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.670
knowledge base somehow distributing it
00:55:01.680 --> 00:55:03.829
somehow ensuring that we can all learn
00:55:03.839 --> 00:55:05.670
from each other as you see in many in
00:55:05.680 --> 00:55:07.349
most other professions where there's a
00:55:07.359 --> 00:55:08.549
formalized process
00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:13.750
to share in the expertise of colleagues
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.230
can i jump on the background because if
00:55:16.240 --> 00:55:17.510
you think about science if you think
00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:18.829
about law if you think about
00:55:18.839 --> 00:55:19.990
anthropology it
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:23.270
doesn't matter every field
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.230
has a body of knowledge produced by well
00:55:26.240 --> 00:55:27.910
every professional field has a body of
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:28.870
knowledge produced
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:30.870
by the experts in that field and that
00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:31.990
body of knowledge is
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.309
very consistent everyone knows so if
00:55:34.319 --> 00:55:35.589
you're an expert in that field you know
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:37.109
how to tap into it you know how to find
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:37.990
what you need
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:39.670
this is how we work science it doesn't
00:55:39.680 --> 00:55:40.950
matter that there's a billion of us
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:42.710
doing a billion different projects
00:55:42.720 --> 00:55:45.750
because we have this consistent body of
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:47.589
knowledge that we have to feed into
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:49.829
that everyone knows how to use and work
00:55:49.839 --> 00:55:51.430
that's where we start to think if
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:53.349
teachers can find a way and there's
00:55:53.359 --> 00:55:54.710
suggestions out there we don't want to
00:55:54.720 --> 00:55:56.870
be the ones to say do it this way
00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:58.789
but how do you build that body of
00:55:58.799 --> 00:56:00.309
knowledge so that what you're doing
00:56:00.319 --> 00:56:01.829
all day every day you're always
00:56:01.839 --> 00:56:03.270
experimenting in your class you don't
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:04.870
have a bad class and come do the same
00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:05.910
thing tomorrow
00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:08.789
you tweak you you change you move that's
00:56:08.799 --> 00:56:09.990
evidence how do we just
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.470
gather collate this evidence into some
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:13.990
sort of useful
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:15.990
body of knowledge that the experts know
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:17.589
what it means know how to use it know
00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:18.630
how to work it
00:56:18.640 --> 00:56:19.670
that's where we start getting that
00:56:19.680 --> 00:56:21.990
professionalism back okay
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:24.230
and that sort of segues into the second
00:56:24.240 --> 00:56:26.069
section of your book about evidence and
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:27.589
one of the things that we've experienced
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:28.950
over recent years
00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:32.230
in uh here in the uk is that
00:56:32.240 --> 00:56:35.109
i think with the advent of teachers
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.109
taking to social media
00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:39.990
they found a voice they found a a
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:41.829
mechanism to speak to other teachers
00:56:41.839 --> 00:56:43.589
which didn't really exist before
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:45.430
and so i think because of that we've
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:47.190
seen think movements like research ed
00:56:47.200 --> 00:56:48.789
which i know has made it to
00:56:48.799 --> 00:56:52.150
to australia where um education
00:56:52.160 --> 00:56:53.190
researchers
00:56:53.200 --> 00:56:55.030
um and teachers have been brought
00:56:55.040 --> 00:56:56.870
together and
00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:59.109
the the the researchers talk about the
00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:00.549
research and the teachers talk about how
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:01.750
they're applying it in classrooms and
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:02.950
that seems like a really healthy
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:03.750
dialogue
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:06.789
and one which you appear
00:57:06.799 --> 00:57:08.230
my reading of it is that you're really
00:57:08.240 --> 00:57:09.990
advocating in your book but when we
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.470
cite evidence uh the question that you
00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:13.910
would ask is who's evidence
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:16.309
is it is it evidence that comes from uh
00:57:16.319 --> 00:57:18.390
from a psychology lab or from a
00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:20.150
neuroscience experiment or is it
00:57:20.160 --> 00:57:22.150
evidence of how teachers have been using
00:57:22.160 --> 00:57:25.030
this stuff productively in classrooms
00:57:25.040 --> 00:57:26.710
and what you see is most people you're
00:57:26.720 --> 00:57:28.470
spot on most people use the term
00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:29.270
evidence
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:31.190
considering assuming that it's a
00:57:31.200 --> 00:57:32.309
singular thing
00:57:32.319 --> 00:57:34.950
evidence is what fits in this box called
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:35.670
science
00:57:35.680 --> 00:57:38.230
until you realize that no every field in
00:57:38.240 --> 00:57:39.589
the world has a very different
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:40.390
definition
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:42.630
of evidence lawyers evidence is
00:57:42.640 --> 00:57:44.470
precedence go back to anthropologists
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:47.349
evidence is stories is myths no other
00:57:47.359 --> 00:57:47.910
field
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:50.069
has to accept your evidence it's the
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:51.670
people the experts who work within your
00:57:51.680 --> 00:57:53.510
field so long as they agree this is
00:57:53.520 --> 00:57:55.430
evidence for us this is what matters to
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:56.150
us
00:57:56.160 --> 00:57:57.990
then that becomes meaningful evidence
00:57:58.000 --> 00:57:59.829
for your field and i think what a lot of
00:57:59.839 --> 00:58:00.870
these movements
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:02.549
before research and i think research ed
00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:04.950
is probably the best one to do this
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:07.589
before that it was a lot of we have
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:08.950
scientific research born in the
00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:10.069
laboratory
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:12.309
tell that to teachers and then complain
00:58:12.319 --> 00:58:14.150
when they don't know how to use it
00:58:14.160 --> 00:58:16.470
because our evidence is very different
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:17.750
than what's meaningful evidence in a
00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:19.589
classroom the numbers the stats i have
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:21.510
to crunch the way i have to run my
00:58:21.520 --> 00:58:24.950
research in a lab isn't anywhere near
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:27.190
what matters to a teacher how do i run
00:58:27.200 --> 00:58:29.589
30 year five kids on a friday afternoon
00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:30.950
to try and teach them math
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.030
the two are just very separate and we've
00:58:33.040 --> 00:58:34.950
been trying to shoehorn our evidence
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:36.150
into your field
00:58:36.160 --> 00:58:38.549
forever and now i think with research ed
00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:39.750
that's when they said okay there's
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:41.190
evidence here
00:58:41.200 --> 00:58:42.710
but what is your evidence what does this
00:58:42.720 --> 00:58:43.990
mean for you and that's where we're
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:45.750
gonna get the juice have the teachers
00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:47.109
that's what i love whenever a research
00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:48.710
ed conference comes up here and i look
00:58:48.720 --> 00:58:50.309
at the schedule and
00:58:50.319 --> 00:58:53.750
it's about 75 to 80 teachers instead of
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:54.870
researchers i'm like
00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:57.990
that's it there you go it it might sound
00:58:58.000 --> 00:58:58.870
crazy but
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:01.910
that's the step the day i stop going to
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:03.430
conferences to talk to teachers
00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:05.829
as a researcher is the day that teachers
00:59:05.839 --> 00:59:06.710
have stepped up
00:59:06.720 --> 00:59:08.470
and although i might be shooting myself
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:09.670
in the foot that's what i'm really
00:59:09.680 --> 00:59:10.789
looking for
00:59:10.799 --> 00:59:12.309
you know i do you know i could go on
00:59:12.319 --> 00:59:13.829
talking to you guys uh
00:59:13.839 --> 00:59:16.950
forever um i've really i've i really
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:18.710
want people to know and i i don't always
00:59:18.720 --> 00:59:19.270
say this
00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:21.349
so i'm i'm being really really explicit
00:59:21.359 --> 00:59:22.390
i enjoyed the book
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:24.870
i really valued reading it it was a it
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:26.630
was a relatively quick read i read it
00:59:26.640 --> 00:59:29.190
in one sitting in the in one evening it
00:59:29.200 --> 00:59:29.670
was
00:59:29.680 --> 00:59:32.069
it's packed full of great stories many
00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:33.990
of which we haven't even touched on
00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:35.990
so you know even if you find that you
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:37.750
don't agree with this i i would i
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:39.430
i'm speaking for you here david and
00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:40.870
jared but i think you don't mind if
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:42.710
people agree with you you just want to
00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:44.549
try and provoke deeper thought don't you
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:46.549
and it certainly does that
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:49.430
so highly recommended ten things schools
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:50.150
get wrong
00:59:50.160 --> 00:59:52.549
and how we can get them right by dr
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:54.069
jared cooney horvath
00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:57.190
and david botts thanks so much for
00:59:57.200 --> 00:59:58.950
allowing me to waste so much of your
00:59:58.960 --> 00:59:59.349
time
00:59:59.359 --> 01:00:01.349
can you do after the end of a long day
01:00:01.359 --> 01:00:03.030
in australia immediately in the morning
01:00:03.040 --> 01:00:05.670
but um but brilliant so thanks ever so
01:00:05.680 --> 01:00:06.470
much and
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:08.309
now thank you you have a good friday
01:00:08.319 --> 01:00:09.990
it's our friday night so we can go
01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:11.829
have a scotch yeah you do not have to
01:00:11.839 --> 01:00:13.349
work today
01:00:13.359 --> 01:00:15.109
can i just say david thank you as well
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:16.230
for all the work you're doing and
01:00:16.240 --> 01:00:17.109
highlighting
01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:18.789
educators from around the world and you
01:00:18.799 --> 01:00:20.710
know sometimes work that's happening in
01:00:20.720 --> 01:00:22.710
australia doesn't necessarily get to uk
01:00:22.720 --> 01:00:23.829
and vice versa so
01:00:23.839 --> 01:00:25.670
really appreciate how that you're
01:00:25.680 --> 01:00:27.109
providing a platform for educators
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:28.230
around the world to
01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:30.230
share and to think deeply so really
01:00:30.240 --> 01:00:31.750
appreciate all the work you're doing as
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:33.510
well so thanks the opportunity
01:00:33.520 --> 01:00:36.789
thank you thank you okay well there we
01:00:36.799 --> 01:00:37.109
are
01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:41.109
we appreciated martin we have a platform
01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:46.390
educators around the world yeah uh unite
01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:47.750
well now we're going to do we're going
01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:49.750
to do we have to go straight rushing in
01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:51.030
because we're reaching the end of the
01:00:51.040 --> 01:00:51.349
show
01:00:51.359 --> 01:00:54.309
rushing straight into the hat i'm afraid
01:00:54.319 --> 01:00:54.710
yes
01:00:54.720 --> 01:00:57.349
we're getting away a couple of copies of
01:00:57.359 --> 01:00:58.630
kate mcallister
01:00:58.640 --> 01:01:02.470
and james banyan's
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:04.630
book uh fear is the mind killer we've
01:01:04.640 --> 01:01:06.309
got two copies to give away
01:01:06.319 --> 01:01:09.349
the email address as always
01:01:09.359 --> 01:01:13.430
is hello at uh something uh can we put
01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:15.030
it on the screen because i just have a
01:01:15.040 --> 01:01:17.109
mental block i can't there we are hello
01:01:17.119 --> 01:01:19.829
wasting your time.k dot uk brilliant so
01:01:19.839 --> 01:01:21.430
if we call your name do get in touch and
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:22.950
we'll send you a copy of james
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:25.750
and kate's book and we're hopefully
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:27.190
going to get back in touch with kate and
01:01:27.200 --> 01:01:29.349
talk to her about her adventures in the
01:01:29.359 --> 01:01:30.870
in the dominican republic
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:33.670
but martin who's won the books we have
01:01:33.680 --> 01:01:34.069
and
01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:37.750
i drew these earlier to save time so
01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:40.549
there's no recounts no donald trump in
01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:42.870
need to recount this
01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:46.150
i suspect glam buck
01:01:46.160 --> 01:01:49.750
glam buck glam b u k
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:53.109
and um f rat first
01:01:53.119 --> 01:01:56.549
first so glam get in touch and your
01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:58.549
copies of fear as the mind killer will
01:01:58.559 --> 01:01:58.870
be
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:01.670
winging their way to your clammy little
01:02:01.680 --> 01:02:03.589
hands but thanks ever so much for
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:07.270
your time and attention on this the 12th
01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:11.270
episode of it's it's your time
01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:13.430
wasting thank you very much see you next
01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:28.770
week bye
01:02:28.780 --> 01:02:33.270
[Music]
01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:36.069
you can toast and tumble on a sleeveless
01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:36.549
bed
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:39.750
but you're wasting your time trying to
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:46.880
lose the blue