Panic in the Library. Should AI Ban School Books?

WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en
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Hello.
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>> Hello. Welcome to It's Your Time. You're
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wasting
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>> time wasting. That's right.
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>> One. Well, what there'll be some at some
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point in the future, we will synchronize
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our ability to say that. And uh and it
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won't sound like a shambles right at the
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very beginning.
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>> And like and subscribe.
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>> But not today.
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>> Like and subscribe.
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>> Today is not that day listeners.
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>> No, no, no. But we're we're we're
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shambles straight away. Like and
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subscribe. We'll just put that up there.
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You know, you want to
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>> Yeah. At the Yeah. Before you've heard
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it, before you've had your time wasted,
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subscribe early. Um because you
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certainly won't later.
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>> That's right. There you go. That's
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That's a good advert. I'm sure that will
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go down.
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>> So, with Martin,
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>> how are you?
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>> Just me today,
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>> Martin Robinson. How are you? How are
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you, Martin Robinson?
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>> It's chaotic. It's a chaotic start to
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the day. It's actually we're recording
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on April the 1st, April Fool's Day. It
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is the morning of April the 1st.
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>> Pinch punch first of the month
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>> and all that and white rabbits.
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>> Yeah.
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>> And it's sort of spring-l like but not
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not quite
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>> early spring.
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>> Spring springish. It's 9° here in
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Somerset. What is it in
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>> Somerset? I've got no idea.
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>> We're uh
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>> I have no figures.
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>> I have no
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>> You don't have a thermometer?
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>> I haven't got a thermometer in front of
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me.
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My my watch tells me the temperature.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Goodness. Um, so listeners, Martin is
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getting out a uh a barometer shape like
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a guitar that she's going to play for
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this.
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>> Hang on. I've got a cord in there. Hang
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on. Now
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>> strum us a chord. Martin,
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>> it's it says 20° here.
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>> Yeah, it's bang accurate, I'm sure.
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>> Yeah. So I have got I have got a I have
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got
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>> Did you make Did you make it yourself?
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>> Woodwork classes.
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>> Yeah. Okay. Well, that was a nice little
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peak into Victoria. Um I guess uh I
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guess you probably bought that in the in
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the late 19th century, didn't you?
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>> Um no. It's it's it's what's left of my
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mother's death.
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>> Oh, okay.
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>> But there you go.
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clearing out her house. There's all
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these boxes
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>> more somber than we wanted.
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>> It is. It is.
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>> Okay. Well,
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>> she used to tap it every day.
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>> She lived to 94 though, so you know. So,
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>> she tapped it.
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>> She tapped it every day.
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>> So, for young people, they might
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misunderstood Sand.
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>> Yeah.
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>> You tap the barometer.
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>> I'd tap that.
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>> Oh, for goodness sake. Anyway, there we
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go.
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Let's get rid of the names so we can you
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know we
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>> people might forget who you are. You
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might forget who you are. Martin's
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forgotten quite a bit this morning.
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>> For those who those who are watching
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just watching just in sound.
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>> Oh god.
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We really should start again. I mean I
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don't know. I had too much sleep last
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night. I think that's what I didn't have
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to tell you the truth. But there we go.
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>> Should we What are we talking about
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today? Apart from nonsense. Why did you
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say you had too much sleep and then
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immediately
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>> change your mind immediately? Yeah,
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that's I'm becoming like Donald Trump,
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only quicker.
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>> Yeah. And less orange.
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>> Yeah. Say one thing and immediately
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>> and not firing so many missiles. Well,
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that's good. Um so, so Martin um told me
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earlier before we came on air that he's
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done absolutely nothing in the last
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month since we last broadcast or
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narrowcast or whatever it webcast or
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whatever it is that we're doing podcast.
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>> But I've had I've had a more interesting
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time. I've just returned from Australia
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which is fabulous. I first time I've
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been and uh I'm a fan. Martin,
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>> you're a fan of Australia.
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>> I like it. Yeah.
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>> Did you see it? Koalas.
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>> I did. I saw kangaroos, koalas. Uh I
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also saw wombats which were a bit of a
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surprise. They are
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>> literally huge.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Huge little
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>> Well, they huge little things. They're I
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mean they look like they should be
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smaller, but they're they're they're
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proper units. They're dense. Um you
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wouldn't want to hit a car hit one with
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a car or hit throw one at a car or Yeah,
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they're surprising.
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>> Yeah, I don't know. Control the English.
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>> Um
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>> I was also attacked by a bird.
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>> Were you a shame?
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>> It flew at me.
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Oh dear. You've let yourself down there,
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haven't you?
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>> It's in 1970s all over again.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. It's that Benny Hill come
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running through in a minute. Yeah. I was
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attacked by a bird and it got this white
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bird. It wasn't a cockatu, but it was a
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white bird and it flew at me and it sort
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of
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>> went for my eyes.
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>> It wasn't a swan. No, it was a bit
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smaller than that. Went for my eyes. I
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sort of escaped from it and ran off. And
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uh and I said to some people later, "Oh,
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I was attacked by a bird." And they
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said, "Well, that's a bit unusual." And
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I was like, "I know." And they went,
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"Yeah, it's not the time of year that
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people are normally attacked."
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>> So it's aarent of year thing.
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>> It's Well, normally apparently it's a se
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when they're nesting.
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>> Yeah.
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>> They're they're pretty keen at flying at
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people, but they're not ne So it just
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took exception to
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>> it could have been a late a late
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neester.
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>> My ginger locks. I don't know what it
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was, but it was
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>> I wanted to nest in your hair.
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>> Maybe a nest. Maybe I interrupted it in
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the Yes, it is.
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>> Yeah. So
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>> yeah. Yeah, I know.
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>> Don't know what's going on there.
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>> Yeah, that's that's the my only
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criticism really of Australia is they
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they just got the seasons wrong.
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>> They've got it upside down.
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>> Yeah, they haven't thought it through.
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>> No. No.
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>> Christmas in the middle of in the middle
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of summer.
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>> No, that's fine. I Well, no, but it
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isn't. It's Christmas. It's still in
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December. They They haven't They haven't
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put August in Christmas time.
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>> No, but Christmas
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originally a winterville, wasn't it? A
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winter festival.
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Yeah, but it was never in August.
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>> No, it was never in December either. It
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was before pre-cal.
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>> It was in cold times.
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>> Oh, I mean it is cold in December.
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>> Not in Australia.
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>> No, not No,
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>> that's what we're talking about.
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>> Sure. I get that. I get that. I get
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that. My point to the Australians, if
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you're listening to this, look, it's
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fine that you've got December and
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Christmas and, you know, that's fine.
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That's normal. You don't have to call it
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just cuz it's hot. You don't have to
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call it summer. It's winter. Everyone
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understands that it's winter.
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>> Oh, I see. You actually think it should
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be called winter in Australia.
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>> Yeah.
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>> So,
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>> obviously because it's December,
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>> right now that's very contrary.
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>> It's just confusing.
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>> You're the Peter Hitchens. The Peter
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Hitchens of the seasons.
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>> Oh, yeah. What is it? He's really really
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cross about daylight saving, isn't he?
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>> Every year. Every year. Furious. It's
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like the first cocoon
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>> stealing stealing time from us. Yeah.
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>> Um absolutely mental as far as I can
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tell.
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>> Livid,
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>> isn't he? No, I mean he's he might be
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livid, but he's also bonkers.
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>> Well, I I I couldn't possibly comment on
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that because I can't afford a solicitor.
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>> Ah, okay. Do you think he'd sue for
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people? If he's suing people who's
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saying he's bonkers, he's going to need
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a lot of solicitors, isn't he?
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No, I I had a long conversation with him
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once about Theresa May.
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>> No doubt.
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>> And u
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>> was he a fan?
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>> He's not a fan of Theresa May at all.
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And as she went to my old school, he was
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very interested in finding out all the
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gossip.
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>> I didn't have any cuz the same time as
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her being younger than her.
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>> Are you younger than Theresa May? I
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would assumed it was the other way.
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>> I would have assumed it was the other
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way round.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. She looks younger.
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Yes, she does.
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>> Yes, she does. Martin's having a little
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joke there. But she really does look
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>> Nigel Farage is younger than me, which
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is a bit of an upset.
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>> Great. Younger than you and slightly to
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the right, I think.
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>> Slightly to the right. Yes, slightly to
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the right. He leans He leans slightly to
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the right, but not as far right as some,
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apparently.
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>> No. Uh well
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not yeah there's a few maybe who are
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further
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>> according to the NEU um he's not
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>> Gerbles was further to the right maybe
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>> that's it but according to the NEU he
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shouldn't be discussed in schools or or
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supported
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>> oh no he shouldn't
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>> that's right
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>> no they don't want they want political
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neutrality except
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>> for the Greens
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>> they don't want Yeah they like Zack
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Palansky don't they everyone everyone
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seems to like Zack Palansky he's a
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chipper little chappie isn't he
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>> I I don't know if I if I like Zack
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Kaplansky. He said he was the only
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Jewish leader of a British political
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party until it was pointed out to him
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that there have been quite a few other
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>> like Benjamin Draeli
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>> Draeli famously
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>> Ed Milliband
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>> you know but anyway so
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>> that's by the way what are we talking
00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:23.110
about
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>> he's made some great films though hasn't
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he
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>> Zack Palansky oh
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>> yeah beautiful
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>> that's a different Palansky isn't it
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>> that isn't that the
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>> isn't that rapist.
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>> Oh god. No. You see, you really need to
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solicitor up, I think.
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>> No, I think he's still
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>> he's still he's still wanted in in
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Britain, isn't it? He can't enter
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Britain.
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:47.030
>> He can't enter Britain because funny
00:09:47.040 --> 00:09:49.030
enough, he's wanted, isn't it?
00:09:49.040 --> 00:09:50.470
>> Clearly
00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:52.389
>> statutory rape.
00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:53.990
>> Yeah. Pedophilia, wasn't it? It's a
00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:55.670
pedophile attack, I think. So, that's
00:09:55.680 --> 00:09:58.949
why it's statuto rape and not Yeah, that
00:09:58.959 --> 00:10:00.870
goes into because it was
00:10:00.880 --> 00:10:02.790
>> Well, there we are. He really shouldn't
00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:04.389
be running a political party in that
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:04.949
case.
00:10:04.959 --> 00:10:06.630
>> No, he shouldn't. But he he was a
00:10:06.640 --> 00:10:10.710
hypnotist at one point, wasn't he? So he
00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:11.990
>> Zack Palansky.
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.230
>> Yes.
00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:14.790
>> Oh,
00:10:14.800 --> 00:10:16.870
>> Zack You don't know this. Zack Palansky
00:10:16.880 --> 00:10:20.470
was a hypnot he hypnotized he he ran a a
00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:23.590
boob expanding enterprise where he
00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:25.350
hypnotized women into thinking their
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:30.470
boobs into making their boobs bigger.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:34.230
That can't be true.
00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:35.590
>> You're thinking I'm making it up because
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.150
it's April Fool's Day. I'm not making
00:10:38.160 --> 00:10:38.310
up.
00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:39.590
>> Maybe.
00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:40.310
>> Really?
00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:40.790
>> Yes.
00:10:40.800 --> 00:10:42.470
>> Zack Palansky, the leader of the Green
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:43.030
Party.
00:10:43.040 --> 00:10:45.269
>> Yes.
00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:47.269
>> Was hypnotizing women into making their
00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:48.389
boobs bigger.
00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:50.470
>> Yeah. Not not not against their will.
00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.150
>> Like like as a as a as a sort of weird
00:10:54.160 --> 00:10:55.670
stage show or something.
00:10:55.680 --> 00:10:58.150
>> No, it's it was a job. Is he like is he
00:10:58.160 --> 00:11:00.470
like the Darren Brown of politics?
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:02.470
>> It it's it was something to do with when
00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:04.710
he was in the Lib Dems,
00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:05.190
which is
00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:07.190
>> Oh, wow. That explains it.
00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:08.069
>> Yeah.
00:11:08.079 --> 00:11:09.990
>> Which is a breeding ground for leaders
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:12.150
of other political parties. Liz Truss,
00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:13.990
for example, was a lide.
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:14.310
>> Yeah.
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:16.230
>> In her youth.
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.069
>> I mean, she just could she just probably
00:11:18.079 --> 00:11:19.670
went into the open the wrong door,
00:11:19.680 --> 00:11:20.949
didn't she?
00:11:20.959 --> 00:11:22.870
>> Luckily, she and Zach Blansky wasn't
00:11:22.880 --> 00:11:26.790
there. Or was he? Anyway,
00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:28.230
>> what are we talking about today?
00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:29.829
>> What are we talking about today?
00:11:29.839 --> 00:11:34.230
>> I know. Well, just general blend.
00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:36.630
I know. I know. God, is it really?
00:11:36.640 --> 00:11:37.110
>> Yes.
00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.350
>> I'm so sorry, everyone. Maybe we'll see
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:41.509
if we can work out how to cut some of
00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:44.710
that. Okay, listen. Here's what we We're
00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:47.269
talking about um
00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:49.269
panic around technology and how
00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:51.829
technology can move faster than human
00:11:51.839 --> 00:11:54.310
judgment. So what happens when
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:56.069
institutions lose confidence in their
00:11:56.079 --> 00:11:58.790
own judgment? So there's been a story uh
00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:01.269
where a school appears to have
00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.590
outsourced literary judgment to AI and
00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.829
ended up pulling books like 1984. Um bit
00:12:07.839 --> 00:12:10.310
of a bit of a strange one to to ban
00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.230
there. And Twilight, Stephanie Myers
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:13.990
Twilight, which I probably would ban uh
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.310
from shelves. Um, and we're also going
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.790
to talk about smart glasses, uh, which
00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:23.350
make um, exam cheating harder to detect,
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.230
exposing the fragility of our
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.550
assessments. And, uh, and we're going to
00:12:28.560 --> 00:12:31.829
frame it all by thinking about GK
00:12:31.839 --> 00:12:35.190
Chesterton's fence. GK Chesterton's Do
00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:36.870
you know about GK Chesterton's fence,
00:12:36.880 --> 00:12:37.190
Martin?
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:39.030
>> I do. I do. I do know a bit about it,
00:12:39.040 --> 00:12:41.030
but you you tell us. You've you've
00:12:41.040 --> 00:12:42.870
written it down. Should I?
00:12:42.880 --> 00:12:44.710
>> Well, I've got a little I' I mean GK
00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:47.030
Chester wrote it down. I'm going to read
00:12:47.040 --> 00:12:47.910
it out though.
00:12:47.920 --> 00:12:49.670
>> Yeah, but you've got it written down not
00:12:49.680 --> 00:12:52.949
by in GK Chesterton's hand, but in
00:12:52.959 --> 00:12:53.430
print.
00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:54.870
>> No, I haven't I haven't got a
00:12:54.880 --> 00:12:57.430
handwritten letter from GK Chess. No.
00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:59.829
So, as GK Chestn said to me in the pub
00:12:59.839 --> 00:13:02.550
last night, um there exists in such
00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:05.269
cases a certain institution or law, let
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:07.269
us say for the sake of simplicity, a
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.710
fence or gate erected across a road. The
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.509
more modern type of reformer goes gay up
00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.829
to it and says, "I don't see the use of
00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:19.269
this. Let us clear it away." To which
00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:21.110
the more intelligent type of reformer
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.750
will do well to answer. If you don't see
00:13:23.760 --> 00:13:26.310
the use of it, I certainly won't let you
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:29.750
clear it away. Go away and think. Then
00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:31.590
when you can come back and tell me that
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:34.310
you don't see the use of it, I may allow
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.949
you to destroy it.
00:13:36.959 --> 00:13:41.110
>> There you go. Um, now in a in a in a
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.269
vain effort to look clever here, uh,
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.150
Martin tells me that that's a bit
00:13:46.160 --> 00:13:48.949
burkian. Um, now I think that's a bit
00:13:48.959 --> 00:13:51.670
rude to say that GK Chess's a bit of a
00:13:51.680 --> 00:13:53.829
Burke. I know. Tell us why it's a bit
00:13:53.839 --> 00:13:54.710
burky, Martin.
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.230
>> Well, it's a bit conservative really
00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.150
with a with a small C they say, but
00:13:58.160 --> 00:14:00.949
about change and things. Yeah,
00:14:00.959 --> 00:14:04.870
>> it was um Burke looking at the what
00:14:04.880 --> 00:14:06.949
happened across the channel in France in
00:14:06.959 --> 00:14:09.670
the time of the French Revolution and uh
00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:10.550
saying that you know
00:14:10.560 --> 00:14:12.069
>> he wasn't he wasn't a fan was he?
00:14:12.079 --> 00:14:13.750
>> He was a fan of the American Revolution
00:14:13.760 --> 00:14:16.870
but not the French one. So, you know,
00:14:16.880 --> 00:14:18.710
there are times when you tear down
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.910
fences and you really shouldn't do it
00:14:21.920 --> 00:14:25.110
necessarily because you don't know what
00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.910
things will be unleashed by the changes
00:14:27.920 --> 00:14:31.430
you make. Um, and this is, you know, and
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.750
and the thing about tradition is we
00:14:33.760 --> 00:14:36.310
might have forgotten why it's there
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.389
until you take it away and then all of a
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.629
sudden all hell is broken loose and then
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.590
you realize ah that's why it was there.
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.509
>> That's why those forgotten
00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:45.829
>> Yeah.
00:14:45.839 --> 00:14:48.230
>> reasons for those rules were there in
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.470
the first place. So be careful what you
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:52.550
wish for when you when you decide to
00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:54.230
have progress and change in an
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.310
institution really.
00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.710
>> Yeah. So, a school using AI to decide
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.110
which books are safe for children. Um,
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:02.949
what's that about, Martin?
00:15:02.959 --> 00:15:05.269
>> Well, let's let's try and take it, I
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.990
think, take it from the school's
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.590
perspective.
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:10.470
>> Yeah.
00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.150
>> Um,
00:15:12.160 --> 00:15:14.470
>> and that is safeguarding
00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:14.790
>> that.
00:15:14.800 --> 00:15:18.629
>> Yes. And we can say that ah right what
00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:21.350
we've got here is that certain things
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.710
that we teach or certain things that we
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.150
um allow children access to might be
00:15:28.160 --> 00:15:33.670
>> things that um a parent or a a a group
00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:36.069
of people, a political party or a
00:15:36.079 --> 00:15:38.230
newspaper or something like that might
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.550
object to and suddenly expose us to. or
00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:43.269
indeed it might cause harm to one of the
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.230
children that we care for. Therefore, we
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.189
ought to be careful about what we put on
00:15:49.199 --> 00:15:51.590
our shelves. And you can say something
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:53.110
obvious,
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:53.910
>> you know.
00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:57.110
>> Um there are obvious things like
00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:59.509
>> pornography, for example, you wouldn't
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:00.790
put on your shelf. So, there is
00:16:00.800 --> 00:16:02.870
obviously a line that is drawn
00:16:02.880 --> 00:16:03.430
somewhere.
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.509
>> Manuals on how to self harm or something
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:06.870
like that. We're not going to put those
00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:09.990
on school library shelves. But so, the
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:11.829
story from that that point of view. So
00:16:11.839 --> 00:16:13.430
start with that thing that it's about
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:14.949
safeguarding our children. Let's start
00:16:14.959 --> 00:16:15.590
from there.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.509
>> And that's obviously very sensible and
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:21.110
nobody would uh well few people would
00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.910
argue with that. Maybe maybe some would
00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:25.590
uh maybe people that don't like daylight
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:27.110
saving time and things like that.
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.350
Anyway, um
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.550
>> I know I know. Uh so uh so the story is
00:16:32.560 --> 00:16:34.949
a Greater Manchester Secondary School.
00:16:34.959 --> 00:16:36.470
Uh should we name them
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.310
>> if we know them? Isn't it you is it
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.710
>> we know it's we know it's yeah Larry
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:46.230
Academy. Yeah. Uh so allegedly let's be
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:49.030
careful here used AI to to earmark
00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:51.910
around 200 books for removal. So as we
00:16:51.920 --> 00:16:54.310
said I said before things like 1984
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.189
Twilight also Michelle Obama's
00:16:57.199 --> 00:16:59.509
autobiography becoming I've not read it
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.550
but I didn't I didn't imagine that it
00:17:02.560 --> 00:17:04.710
would have content that might be
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.350
dangerous for children. Um and the
00:17:07.360 --> 00:17:10.150
librarian at the school said was was has
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.870
has been reported as being gobsmacked
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.750
and uh refused to remove some of the
00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:18.630
earmarked titles. So then she faced a
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.949
safeguarding investigation later
00:17:20.959 --> 00:17:22.949
resigned
00:17:22.959 --> 00:17:24.870
uh and so
00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:25.510
>> can I just or
00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:28.630
>> a bit of a from what little I know about
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:29.909
this
00:17:29.919 --> 00:17:33.110
>> which is basically from an LBC uh
00:17:33.120 --> 00:17:34.870
article.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.590
>> Okay. She comes across the librarian as
00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:40.390
a bit of a hero, I must say. Um, right.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.510
Go on.
00:17:41.520 --> 00:17:43.669
>> And that she she stood her ground and I
00:17:43.679 --> 00:17:46.150
I I think that that's rather wonderful.
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:48.470
So, what what is the argument for
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:52.070
removing let's say some books? Now, what
00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:53.750
about
00:17:53.760 --> 00:17:54.789
>> So, apparently,
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.190
>> what's 1984 got in it that should
00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:57.590
remove?
00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:59.190
>> Well, let's come back. Let's come back
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:00.630
to that in a second because apparently
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.710
all this was triggered by the head
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.310
teacher
00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:07.190
objecting to the library stalking Laura
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.510
Bates book men who hate women which is a
00:18:09.520 --> 00:18:12.630
sort of an expose of incel culture. Uh
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.230
which
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:16.390
is kind of an interesting take in and of
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:17.990
itself. I mean Laura Bates I don't know
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.510
if you're familiar with Laura Bates but
00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:22.150
she does a lot of talks in schools to
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.789
young people about misogyny
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:28.390
um and about you know about sexism. Um
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.029
she she wrote a book that I remember my
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:32.470
daughter's reading years ago called
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:35.909
Everyday Sexism and uh and she's written
00:18:35.919 --> 00:18:37.750
she's written books for spec
00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:40.870
specifically for younger children. Um
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:42.789
and and this book I haven't read the men
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.029
who hate women but as I say an expose
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:47.990
apparently of incel culture and uh and
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.029
this this was the trigger this this the
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.350
head teacher finding this in the library
00:18:53.360 --> 00:18:54.070
made him
00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:54.710
>> right
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.310
>> suspect or or decide that the library
00:18:58.320 --> 00:19:00.390
contained books which were unsafe for
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.070
children. So to go back to your
00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:03.909
>> is the head teacher he by the way do we
00:19:03.919 --> 00:19:05.350
know that?
00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:06.950
>> Well they're reporters as being a he.
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.950
Yeah. I haven't I don't know their name.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:09.909
>> Okay. No, just just
00:19:09.919 --> 00:19:11.750
>> Yeah, I don't know how important that
00:19:11.760 --> 00:19:14.310
is, but uh yeah. So,
00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:17.270
>> so so I can't comment on the on the
00:19:17.280 --> 00:19:20.390
content of men who hate women, but
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.310
because I have not read it, but I but I
00:19:22.320 --> 00:19:25.110
think we can cont comment on 1984. And
00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:27.350
that obviously there are some bits in
00:19:27.360 --> 00:19:29.270
1984 that I wouldn't be putting I
00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:31.029
wouldn't be putting the book in front of
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.029
younger children.
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.750
I wouldn't be encouraging, you know, 11
00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:38.230
year olds necessarily to read it. Uh
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:40.310
there's there's some sex scenes in
00:19:40.320 --> 00:19:42.470
there, aren't there? Uh there's there's
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:47.190
some torture scenes. Um and you know,
00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.750
not not especially graphic in and of
00:19:49.760 --> 00:19:51.590
themselves, but the threat of it is
00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:54.710
pretty horrible with the uh the box of
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:59.270
rats. Um and and yeah, and some of the
00:19:59.280 --> 00:20:02.070
some of the misogynistic
00:20:02.080 --> 00:20:06.549
attitudes that that um well, what's he
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.110
forgotten the protagonist's name? What's
00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:12.310
he called? Um Winston Winston Smith is
00:20:12.320 --> 00:20:17.669
uh has towards uh his um partner in in
00:20:17.679 --> 00:20:19.510
the book are a little bit problematic.
00:20:19.520 --> 00:20:21.270
you know, you read you read them as a
00:20:21.280 --> 00:20:22.630
modern reader and think, oh, you know,
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.909
that's a that's a an unpleasant view to
00:20:25.919 --> 00:20:27.510
hold. But I think, you know, it's not
00:20:27.520 --> 00:20:29.270
meant to it's not presented in a way as
00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:31.430
that that he's being admirable at all. I
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.510
think we're meant to see him as weak and
00:20:33.520 --> 00:20:35.190
and uh and flawed.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.909
>> Also, his attitude, think of the 1980s,
00:20:37.919 --> 00:20:40.710
of course.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.230
>> Go on.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:42.630
>> Doesn't matter.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.630
>> What do you mean? Oh, okay. Oh, you're
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:46.310
thinking you're saying, "Oh, okay."
00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:51.669
Yeah. I mean honestly what can you do?
00:20:51.679 --> 00:20:55.110
>> Yeah. Anyway, um yeah.
00:20:55.120 --> 00:20:57.430
>> So,
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.149
should we ban it? No. That's obviously
00:21:00.159 --> 00:21:03.590
silly. Should we restrict it? Maybe. I
00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:05.990
mean, I remember working in a school
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.870
years and years ago now where the we had
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.789
uh uh library lessons as lots of schools
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.830
do or did certainly and uh once a week
00:21:15.840 --> 00:21:17.430
children would troop into the library in
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.430
their English lesson and choose books
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.549
and um and there were certain areas of
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.149
the library which were consider which
00:21:24.159 --> 00:21:28.310
were only for students in keystage 4 and
00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:30.470
and uh the younger students were
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.870
terribly keen to try and get books from
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:35.830
on that section that had been designated
00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:37.990
not for them and uh and it was like
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.149
whack-a-ole trying to sort of fend them
00:21:40.159 --> 00:21:42.950
off copies of 1984 and all the all the
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.710
rest of it. Uh obviously they didn't
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.029
want to read 19 had they had they got
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.029
their hot little hands on a copy of 1984
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:50.149
they wouldn't have made it past page
00:21:50.159 --> 00:21:51.110
three.
00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:53.669
>> I was I was at the Tate Gallery Tate
00:21:53.679 --> 00:21:56.470
Modern couple of days ago on on Monday
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.350
and um I went to see the Tracy Emmen
00:21:59.360 --> 00:22:01.750
exhibition which was superb. But um
00:22:01.760 --> 00:22:03.190
wandering around wandering around the
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.430
rest of the gallery, there's one video
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:08.070
installation which is got a warning, a
00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:10.630
trigger warning on it about scenes of a
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.630
sexual nature.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:13.029
>> Yeah.
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.190
>> And so put my head around the corner
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:16.470
there to see what was going on.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:17.270
>> As you do.
00:22:17.280 --> 00:22:20.950
>> And it was full of school boys.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:21.430
>> Yeah.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:22.310
>> Hundreds of them.
00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:23.350
>> Nice.
00:22:23.360 --> 00:22:24.789
>> So you couldn't couldn't see what was
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:26.070
going on because there was just all
00:22:26.080 --> 00:22:28.390
these these school parties had obviously
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:31.110
found their way there. It's almost like
00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:33.430
that should be part of the part of the
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.350
installation. The school boys need to be
00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:36.870
there permanently. Yeah,
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:39.270
>> it's great. So, you know, the plot
00:22:39.280 --> 00:22:41.110
thickens a little bit because the school
00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:42.870
has subsequently said the books weren't
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.549
in fact banned. They were audited, age
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.590
banded, and then returned to appropriate
00:22:49.600 --> 00:22:51.830
categories. Um, you know, that's
00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:54.870
disputed. Um people say they have you
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.590
know but I guess the interesting thing
00:22:57.600 --> 00:23:00.230
>> that after the librarian resigned.
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.870
>> Well I mean diffic I don't know I don't
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.950
know any more details about that
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.430
>> just that she was she obviously says she
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:09.350
was so appalled by it all.
00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:11.909
>> Um and then was made the subject of a
00:23:11.919 --> 00:23:14.230
disciplinary action before she resigned.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:18.310
So that's that's kind of an interesting
00:23:18.320 --> 00:23:19.669
>> choice. You know we don't know the
00:23:19.679 --> 00:23:22.549
details of that. Um,
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:24.390
obviously I wouldn't want to, you know,
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:26.070
you, as you said, she comes across like
00:23:26.080 --> 00:23:27.669
a bit of a hero in the story, but, you
00:23:27.679 --> 00:23:29.110
know, life's more complex than that. We
00:23:29.120 --> 00:23:30.149
don't know the details.
00:23:30.159 --> 00:23:30.549
>> No,
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:32.149
>> but I guess for me the really
00:23:32.159 --> 00:23:33.830
interesting thing is
00:23:33.840 --> 00:23:37.190
>> if you're using human judgment
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.310
to decide on books that might need to be
00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:42.070
age banded and audited and all the rest
00:23:42.080 --> 00:23:44.310
of it, you probably wouldn't pick 1984.
00:23:44.320 --> 00:23:47.510
But the fact that AI was used has
00:23:47.520 --> 00:23:50.549
resulted in perhaps this storm in a
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:52.789
teacup. What do you think?
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.870
>> Yeah. I mean, it
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.110
isn't it down to a school librarian to
00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:01.110
choose what books go in the school
00:24:01.120 --> 00:24:03.909
library based on what staff would like
00:24:03.919 --> 00:24:06.310
to see there and departments, etc., etc.
00:24:06.320 --> 00:24:07.990
and she probably has a conversation
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.470
going on with other members of staff to
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.110
ensure the library stocks books from a
00:24:13.120 --> 00:24:18.310
range of areas and she is also there in
00:24:18.320 --> 00:24:20.710
place so when children come to take
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:22.549
books out
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.070
>> well not anymore she's not
00:24:24.080 --> 00:24:27.029
>> well she would be there to
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.269
facilitate the choice of books for
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.070
certain children but also whether that
00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:35.110
book might not be so suitable for that
00:24:35.120 --> 00:24:38.390
child particularly to read. I mean, you
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.430
can see a point where you get to where
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.350
some schools don't have libraries. Let's
00:24:43.360 --> 00:24:44.789
let's just
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.510
>> say that straight
00:24:45.520 --> 00:24:46.070
>> of course
00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:47.830
>> that they don't have libraries. Other
00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:50.070
other schools have libraries but no
00:24:50.080 --> 00:24:51.669
staff.
00:24:51.679 --> 00:24:52.470
>> Yeah.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:54.950
>> Um you know, under lock and key, they go
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:56.470
in with their teacher and the teacher
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:58.149
just shows them library and takes them
00:24:58.159 --> 00:24:59.830
out again and locks the door behind
00:24:59.840 --> 00:25:02.870
them. Um, other schools have part-time
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:05.110
staff who might look at it, look after
00:25:05.120 --> 00:25:07.830
it at points. Um, so school libraries
00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:10.630
are in in various states, but if we had
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:12.789
the ideal school library, we would have
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:15.029
the professional library service looking
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:19.190
after it. And um, you know, recommending
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.029
children, etc., etc. What what was in
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:23.430
there? I think I read 1984 when I was
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.430
about 11, by the way.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:28.710
>> Did he didn't do me any harm,
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:29.990
>> etc., etc.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.870
>> Yeah, cuz I've read um we read uh Animal
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:34.549
Farm at school and I was interested in
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.870
it. So I went on and read
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:38.390
>> uh 1984
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.909
>> and loved it and
00:25:39.919 --> 00:25:41.190
>> fine good
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:43.510
>> and and knowing the context of it you
00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:45.669
know just this is where age boundaries
00:25:45.679 --> 00:25:47.669
become a bit peculiar of course but
00:25:47.679 --> 00:25:49.430
because some kids are more mature or
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.669
more open to certain context than others
00:25:51.679 --> 00:25:52.470
at at different
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:53.990
>> age of course
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.870
>> um I remember someone I know who's who
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.590
was reading of mice and men as part of
00:25:59.600 --> 00:26:03.430
their school um curriculum and find it
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.830
extremely disturbed disturbing and
00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:06.870
upsetting.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:07.190
>> Well,
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.149
>> so yeah,
00:26:08.159 --> 00:26:10.549
>> you know, so
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:11.190
>> you you can't
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.430
>> I remember one of my one of my daughters
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.110
reading
00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:16.310
picking up and trying to read The
00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:18.230
Handmaid's Tale when she was I think she
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:19.590
was like 12 or something and just
00:26:19.600 --> 00:26:24.149
finding it a bit a bit much at that age.
00:26:24.159 --> 00:26:27.990
>> Yeah. But should Right. It's it's but it
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.630
it the thing is is whether it's up to AI
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.149
that has absolutely no emotional
00:26:34.159 --> 00:26:36.390
or understanding
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:39.110
>> doesn't know anything
00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:41.750
to make these sorts of judgments. It
00:26:41.760 --> 00:26:43.669
fools us that it knows and that's the
00:26:43.679 --> 00:26:46.070
thing we we can be fooled by it that it
00:26:46.080 --> 00:26:47.750
understands and it knows and things like
00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:50.070
that but it doesn't understand or know
00:26:50.080 --> 00:26:52.070
anything. That that's that's important
00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:56.310
to state I think. um but um it it gives
00:26:56.320 --> 00:26:58.310
the impression that it does and should
00:26:58.320 --> 00:27:01.510
we outsource our human judgment about
00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:04.310
things to AI and this is this is the big
00:27:04.320 --> 00:27:05.669
philosophical
00:27:05.679 --> 00:27:07.750
>> thing that's going on because obviously
00:27:07.760 --> 00:27:10.149
more and more we are and institutions
00:27:10.159 --> 00:27:11.750
more and more are
00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:12.950
>> and yeah
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.630
>> and whether you know and you know I mean
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:19.510
I've used it for an email once or twice
00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:21.110
>> um
00:27:21.120 --> 00:27:24.310
not that it did very much it
00:27:24.320 --> 00:27:27.110
just sorted out my grammar really. But
00:27:27.120 --> 00:27:28.310
you know,
00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:29.750
>> no small task.
00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:31.430
>> No,
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.230
certainly not. Um, so what what do you
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:35.590
think? What do you think? Um,
00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:38.230
>> well, so I I so there's the AI angle
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:40.149
which which I think you know, as we've
00:27:40.159 --> 00:27:43.669
said, uh there's a there's there's we
00:27:43.679 --> 00:27:45.190
don't know what the criteria for
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:46.870
judgment there. It's it's obviously much
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:50.870
bluntter but I think the the where the
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.269
where we can apply the logic of
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.190
Chesterton's fence is by think you know
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.510
if we take go back to that initial
00:27:57.520 --> 00:28:00.630
encounter where head teacher sees Laura
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:02.789
Bates on the shelf and decides there's a
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:05.909
problem there's a safeguarding issue
00:28:05.919 --> 00:28:09.190
um that following Chester's logic he
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.750
should go away and have a think um that
00:28:13.760 --> 00:28:16.149
he should find out teachers, head
00:28:16.159 --> 00:28:17.590
teachers doing that. They they've got to
00:28:17.600 --> 00:28:21.350
be dynamic and show their leadership
00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:21.909
>> straight away.
00:28:21.919 --> 00:28:23.750
>> So, he should, you know, that's the
00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:25.110
point, isn't it? He needs to go away and
00:28:25.120 --> 00:28:26.870
have a think and sort of work out why am
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:32.470
I why am I upset about a book uh talking
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.950
about incel culture? Why why would that
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:36.950
be a bad thing? Why would why why
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:38.389
wouldn't I want that on my library
00:28:38.399 --> 00:28:41.350
shelves? Why wouldn't I want uh young
00:28:41.360 --> 00:28:43.350
people to have access to that book? And
00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:47.029
and if if on careful reflection he
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:50.789
decides no, I I was I I'm right to
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.110
remove that then, you know, then maybe
00:28:53.120 --> 00:28:56.549
we should let him do so. But it strikes
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:57.990
me without knowing anything of the
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.470
situation. I'm imagining here that
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:03.990
what's gone on is he's he's just decided
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.389
to can't see the point of it, thinks
00:29:06.399 --> 00:29:09.590
it's harmful, wants to get rid of it and
00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:13.190
uh and from that has decided that there
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:15.590
may there will be other books of a
00:29:15.600 --> 00:29:19.669
problematic nature in the school. Too
00:29:19.679 --> 00:29:22.070
much time and trouble to sort of ask an
00:29:22.080 --> 00:29:23.590
you know for an individual human being
00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:25.350
to go and sort of audit the book. let's
00:29:25.360 --> 00:29:28.389
get I AI to do it and then that results
00:29:28.399 --> 00:29:31.430
in this and so had
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.909
>> the well hang on there there's there's
00:29:33.919 --> 00:29:35.750
the the judgment there of just happening
00:29:35.760 --> 00:29:38.070
upon a book let's say they've got a
00:29:38.080 --> 00:29:40.389
thing about boys and reading
00:29:40.399 --> 00:29:42.710
>> and you know that they're saying not
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.710
enough boys are reading books
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:47.110
>> so we ought to have books there that are
00:29:47.120 --> 00:29:48.710
attractive to boys and then the first
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.750
book he comes upon is is one about
00:29:51.760 --> 00:29:53.510
saying how boys are
00:29:53.520 --> 00:29:56.230
>> horrible creatures hate toxic male
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:57.909
>> and all this sort of stuff. So, let's
00:29:57.919 --> 00:30:00.470
get rid of that toxic male nonsense. We
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.630
want books to this the library to be a
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.710
space that's welcoming to boys,
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:06.549
>> particularly white working-class boys,
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.389
etc. Whatever,
00:30:08.399 --> 00:30:09.909
>> you know, but you can see that you come
00:30:09.919 --> 00:30:10.710
in with an angle.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:12.149
>> No, absolutely.
00:30:12.159 --> 00:30:12.630
>> Um,
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.990
>> yeah, I can absolutely see that. Yeah.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.029
Now the the big but that's the point is
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:21.669
taking away Yeah. but taking that angle
00:30:21.679 --> 00:30:27.510
the big jump from that to AI is crazy.
00:30:27.520 --> 00:30:29.269
>> Well I mean again it's all
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.950
understandable isn't it? Because you
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.590
know we I've decided there's a there's a
00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:35.669
problematic book in the library. I'm
00:30:35.679 --> 00:30:36.950
suspicious that there are more
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:38.789
problematic books in the library. I
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:40.230
haven't got time to actually do the work
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.389
myself. So let's get AI to do it. You
00:30:42.399 --> 00:30:45.750
know you can see the chain of logic. But
00:30:45.760 --> 00:30:49.110
no, but the right let's do this 20 years
00:30:49.120 --> 00:30:50.630
ago
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:53.269
>> just for the sake of argument.
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.789
>> Right. Let's talk to the librarian
00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:57.430
>> about the
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:59.350
>> Oh, this is what I mean. This is what
00:30:59.360 --> 00:31:00.870
this is the this is the point of the
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.669
fence, isn't it? That you you go away
00:31:03.679 --> 00:31:05.029
and have a think. You talk to the
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:07.510
librarian. You you don't just have a
00:31:07.520 --> 00:31:09.029
knee-jerk reaction. Now, we don't know
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.190
that the that that's what happened, but
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:14.070
you can only imagine based on the story
00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:15.590
that this is, you know, this is a
00:31:15.600 --> 00:31:17.269
scenario that we're kind of
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:18.870
fictionalizing that we're saying this is
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:20.789
what we think happened despite the fact
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.110
that it may be utterly different. So, I
00:31:23.120 --> 00:31:25.029
don't I don't want to I don't want to
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:26.710
create a sort of false narrative around
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.990
any of the individuals involved. But
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.350
um the point being there for me is that
00:31:33.360 --> 00:31:36.710
AI is is has caused a bigger problem
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.070
down the line, but the problem's not
00:31:38.080 --> 00:31:39.830
caused by AI. The problem's caused by a
00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:41.669
lack of human judgment.
00:31:41.679 --> 00:31:44.070
>> Yeah. I it's the same I mean I think
00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:46.149
isn't Daisy Chris the dude who written a
00:31:46.159 --> 00:31:47.590
bit about this as well. I mean speaking
00:31:47.600 --> 00:31:50.549
as a football fan V you know
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.549
>> I mean it's a little thing about you've
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:53.269
got technology.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:54.870
>> I read her book on V.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.430
>> Yeah. So you got a bit about um you've
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.590
got the technology so let's use it
00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:01.990
>> and then it it comes up with its own set
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:03.830
of problems
00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:06.310
>> with issues again which revolve around
00:32:06.320 --> 00:32:08.230
the human judgment about what to do with
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:10.470
the information you've now got
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.470
>> you know and so there's two levels of
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:14.149
human judgment here
00:32:14.159 --> 00:32:17.110
>> one of which is the first place to say I
00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:18.630
don't like that book in the library bump
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:20.070
let's get rid of it second one is to say
00:32:20.080 --> 00:32:22.310
what's AI going to come up with and then
00:32:22.320 --> 00:32:25.350
to believe what AI writes
00:32:25.360 --> 00:32:28.230
as though it's some sort of gospel that
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.870
we should actually follow up.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.950
>> I think I think the issue the AI issue
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:34.549
for me is that it becomes a way of
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.029
avoiding taking responsibility that
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:38.950
>> that nobody's saying, "Oh, well, okay,
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:40.950
I've read this and I've judged it and
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.430
and decided it's unsuitable." Instead,
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.990
you know, there's the neutrality of a
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.950
machine having this this pseudo
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.230
neutrality uh where we can pretend that
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.710
the judgment's a step removed and it's
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:56.549
and there's no person nothing personal
00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:58.630
involved in it. So,
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:00.470
>> but what it's done in football is remove
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.870
the referee from taking a decision
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:04.710
sometimes because they know they've got
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:09.909
the backup of of um V. So perhaps they
00:33:09.919 --> 00:33:12.549
avoid taking the decision on the pitch.
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:15.190
They wait for the V people who are then
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.509
judging what they're seeing
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:19.430
>> from the machine in slow motion and
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.789
different angles but making a completely
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.830
inhuman out of context,
00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:26.950
>> you know, because they're not even at
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:28.310
the same ground. They're they're well
00:33:28.320 --> 00:33:31.110
away from it. And and you know, it's the
00:33:31.120 --> 00:33:32.870
same thing here that someone else is
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:34.470
because the librarian hasn't looked at
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:36.549
that list of AI books. Did someone
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.549
somewhere else who's looked at the list
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:41.350
and said these should go?
00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:43.990
>> So, well, I mean, maybe not even that. I
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.509
think, you know, it's it'd be wrong to
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:47.669
say that AI censored the books because
00:33:47.679 --> 00:33:50.070
as you've pointed out, AI doesn't know
00:33:50.080 --> 00:33:51.190
anything.
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.590
>> No, but what's happened there is that is
00:33:53.600 --> 00:33:55.190
that people in the school, the school
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:57.909
leadership have this have used AI so
00:33:57.919 --> 00:33:59.350
that they don't have to admit they're
00:33:59.360 --> 00:34:01.269
going through a process of censorship.
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.149
>> Yeah. that it's it's it's something
00:34:04.159 --> 00:34:08.149
objective about this this idea, but it's
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.470
not objective.
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:13.190
>> I mean, you know, well, no, I suppose
00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:15.589
not. But it also takes us, you know,
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.349
beyond all of this into sort of well,
00:34:17.359 --> 00:34:19.030
you know, you you talk there about lots
00:34:19.040 --> 00:34:20.069
of schools don't actually have
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:21.430
functional libraries. You've got a
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:23.829
school library. What's it for? Is it,
00:34:23.839 --> 00:34:25.589
you know, is it just for encouraging
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:28.389
boys to read pap or does it have some
00:34:28.399 --> 00:34:31.990
more rarified purpose where we're
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.550
stocking knowledge that we want children
00:34:34.560 --> 00:34:37.349
to have access to where we are providing
00:34:37.359 --> 00:34:41.109
them with nutrition that will that will
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:43.270
feed their minds or or is it something
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.909
paler?
00:34:43.919 --> 00:34:45.829
>> Yeah. And I think
00:34:45.839 --> 00:34:47.909
>> like like the the boys at the the the
00:34:47.919 --> 00:34:50.950
tape modern there there is something
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:52.069
>> attractive about
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:52.950
>> bless them
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:56.710
>> band books you about lady about whatever
00:34:56.720 --> 00:34:58.390
these these things happen to be.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:34:59.910
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:00.150
>> Yeah.
00:35:00.160 --> 00:35:02.790
>> Looking up dictionary. Ah those were the
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.829
days. I think years ago um worked I
00:35:05.839 --> 00:35:07.670
worked in a school where the school
00:35:07.680 --> 00:35:11.510
librarian unusually um was a young man
00:35:11.520 --> 00:35:13.670
um and um and he was you know he was
00:35:13.680 --> 00:35:16.069
quite sort of he was quite sort of hip
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:17.910
and he you know he had tattoos and that
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:19.109
sort of thing and the kids all thought
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:21.109
he was cool I know I know for a
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:24.069
librarian what's going on and um and he
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:25.910
did this he did all sorts of like you
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.230
know things like he did this thing maybe
00:35:28.240 --> 00:35:30.790
slightly ill-advisedly called reading
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:32.790
terrorism where he burst into classroom
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.150
rooms and read a snippet of a book and
00:35:34.160 --> 00:35:38.310
then run off. And I know
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:41.510
I know very odd. Um but one I remember
00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:43.270
one I think it was World Book Day or
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:46.230
something like that. He he convinced the
00:35:46.240 --> 00:35:49.670
deputy head to do an assembly where uh
00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:52.870
he was b that it was the year that the
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:56.630
bulker diaries had won the cargi uh
00:35:56.640 --> 00:35:59.349
young um fiction prize and it's yeah bit
00:35:59.359 --> 00:36:02.150
it was a controversial choice and anyway
00:36:02.160 --> 00:36:04.310
what the deputy head said in his
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.630
assembly was uh you know you might have
00:36:06.640 --> 00:36:08.550
heard that this book has won won the
00:36:08.560 --> 00:36:10.550
Cariegi award but we disapprove of it
00:36:10.560 --> 00:36:12.470
it's you know it's it's it's full of
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:13.910
content that's not appropriate it to
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.069
school children. Uh you definitely
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:17.829
should you you're not allowed to read
00:36:17.839 --> 00:36:19.990
it. Uh you know it's banned blah blah
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:21.349
blah blah blah. And then and then the
00:36:21.359 --> 00:36:23.030
librarian left loads of copies of it
00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:27.030
around the school. Um you know
00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:28.870
which is kind of wonderful book.
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:30.390
>> Is it is it is it
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.510
>> okay? Yeah. It's quite graphic. Well I
00:36:33.520 --> 00:36:36.470
mean you know that's a that's a judgment
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.230
call, isn't it? But the point
00:36:38.240 --> 00:36:40.790
>> I'm asking you to make that judgment.
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:43.270
Oh, well, look, I think it's I I I I
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:45.990
wouldn't ban any books. Um, I'd be, you
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.990
know, I would, like I said at the
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.790
beginning, I wouldn't recommend
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:52.870
1984 to 11 year olds despite the fact
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:54.710
that the 11-year-old Martin Robinson
00:36:54.720 --> 00:36:56.950
lapped it up, you know, but I wouldn't
00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:00.390
stop them reading it. Um, but uh, but I
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:01.829
think, you know, that there's something
00:37:01.839 --> 00:37:04.390
in here about safeguarding becoming an
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.069
excuse, you know, that we all like
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:07.670
everybody agrees safeguarding is really
00:37:07.680 --> 00:37:09.589
important. We need to keep children safe
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.550
and that is absolutely uncontroversial.
00:37:12.560 --> 00:37:16.550
But if we're using safeguarding to a to
00:37:16.560 --> 00:37:19.750
as a as an excuse for risk aversion then
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.069
it does it risk becoming something else?
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.670
>> Yeah. I mean get to a point where you
00:37:25.680 --> 00:37:27.910
take away God there's a lovely video I
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:29.349
was watching the other day.
00:37:29.359 --> 00:37:31.990
>> Oh yeah. um about playgrounds in the
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:36.069
past compared to playgrounds now and how
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:37.829
extraordinarily dangerous the
00:37:37.839 --> 00:37:39.990
playgrounds that I played on were. You
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:41.829
know, from the most obvious thing that
00:37:41.839 --> 00:37:44.550
you if you fell from a height, you fell
00:37:44.560 --> 00:37:46.150
on concrete, you know,
00:37:46.160 --> 00:37:48.230
>> I mean, you know, not the the sort of
00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:50.390
soft um falls you have,
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:51.910
>> bouncy stuff they have now. Yeah.
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:53.510
>> Yeah. and and getting your fingers
00:37:53.520 --> 00:37:55.990
caught in bolted bits where swinging
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.670
around all these sorts of things, you
00:37:57.680 --> 00:37:59.270
know, and the types of injuries you used
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:00.069
to get.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:03.030
>> Um, how far can you safeguard? I mean,
00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:05.430
it to get to a point where you actually
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.230
got people who can't cope with any
00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:10.470
threat, which actually is part of
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:12.550
growing up, is is to learn how to deal
00:38:12.560 --> 00:38:14.390
with certain threats and difficulties in
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:15.670
life.
00:38:15.680 --> 00:38:17.829
>> No. And so, so where's the line with
00:38:17.839 --> 00:38:20.069
safeguarding? So we all agree that you
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:22.230
know children should should you know not
00:38:22.240 --> 00:38:24.710
be put at certain kinds of risks and we
00:38:24.720 --> 00:38:27.030
all want to keep children safe from you
00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:29.510
know any kind of abuse. Uh of course we
00:38:29.520 --> 00:38:32.550
do but when safeguarding creeps into
00:38:32.560 --> 00:38:36.630
children not meeting disturbing ideas.
00:38:36.640 --> 00:38:38.390
>> Is that still safeguarding or is that
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:40.790
some something else? And you know, I
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.230
take the point that you're making about
00:38:42.240 --> 00:38:44.310
cottonwill kids and sort of, you know,
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.470
making sure they never they never have
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:51.270
any kind of physical threat uh you know,
00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:52.390
falling on falling over.
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:53.990
>> These are conceptual threats. These
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.990
these, you know, a threat is is is not
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.310
physical threat
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:01.910
>> playground thing. It's it's this is
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.710
something about the mind.
00:39:04.720 --> 00:39:06.790
>> It's not unsafe. I mean, conceivably, I
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.150
mean, you know, you probably don't want
00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:10.390
children, young children reading Marquee
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.630
Desard or, you know, there's always
00:39:12.640 --> 00:39:14.390
lines that we're going to draw that
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:15.670
we're not going to stock certain things
00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:18.630
in school libraries. But, you know, that
00:39:18.640 --> 00:39:21.190
if if a determined 11year-old wants to
00:39:21.200 --> 00:39:25.030
read 1984, of course they should. And,
00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:26.950
you know, if they then if they then meet
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.910
content that is challenging, disturbing,
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:33.349
then that's okay.
00:39:33.359 --> 00:39:33.829
I think
00:39:33.839 --> 00:39:35.829
>> yeah in in context and again it's
00:39:35.839 --> 00:39:40.790
context I mean again if it was just porn
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:41.829
in the school
00:39:41.839 --> 00:39:44.870
>> yeah for sure you know 100% there's
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:47.190
obviously but you aren't this is this
00:39:47.200 --> 00:39:48.870
brings us to mobile phone bans and
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:50.630
things like that and it's extraordinary
00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:53.190
that we we've got AI doing the opposite
00:39:53.200 --> 00:39:55.430
on their mobile phones which is you know
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:57.430
whether it be AI sort of encouraging
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:00.230
some kids towards suicide you've got all
00:40:00.240 --> 00:40:02.150
sorts of dodgy content out there and yet
00:40:02.160 --> 00:40:05.589
we seem quite happy to allow some people
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:07.670
seem quite happy to allow children to
00:40:07.680 --> 00:40:09.430
have these phones from 11 years old
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:11.349
upwards, but my god, the school library
00:40:11.359 --> 00:40:12.790
help.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:14.790
>> I mean, it's extraordinary, isn't it?
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:16.550
And and I guess so there's that. And
00:40:16.560 --> 00:40:18.630
there's also like why would anyone think
00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:20.310
it was more appropriate to trust a
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:23.190
chatbot than a trained librarian?
00:40:23.200 --> 00:40:26.069
>> Yeah. The very chatbot that that is sort
00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:27.109
of
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:29.750
>> trouble for encouraging a couple of
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.510
people to suicide, you know. I mean,
00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:33.910
it's the same chatbot, you know.
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.310
>> Yeah. So, look, let's Should we move on
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:38.069
to another AI story that we've got?
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:39.589
>> Go on then. Go on.
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.390
>> So, apparently, Martin, students in
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:46.150
China are renting AI smart glasses to
00:40:46.160 --> 00:40:49.430
cheat on exams.
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.069
So these these glasses can be can be
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:56.150
rented for anywhere between6 to12 a day
00:40:56.160 --> 00:41:00.390
uh or the equivalent in in is it un um
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:04.230
in China. uh and these these obviously
00:41:04.240 --> 00:41:07.030
these devices I mean what they do they
00:41:07.040 --> 00:41:08.790
obviously you're not speaking to them or
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:10.950
anything is that they are they are
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:13.270
looking at the exam that you're having
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.870
to answer and then feeding up responses
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.589
on the inside of the glass on a sort of
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:22.550
heads up display to say here's how you
00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:25.670
answer this question. So clearly these
00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:29.190
are banned but they don't
00:41:29.200 --> 00:41:32.069
>> of course of who who wouldn't who
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:34.150
wouldn't and and the point is you know
00:41:34.160 --> 00:41:36.550
the the you know they're they don't look
00:41:36.560 --> 00:41:38.150
like a piece of gadgetry they look like
00:41:38.160 --> 00:41:39.270
a pair of glasses
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:40.630
>> like a pair of Ray-B bands or something
00:41:40.640 --> 00:41:41.829
like that are they aren't they Ray-B
00:41:41.839 --> 00:41:42.230
bands
00:41:42.240 --> 00:41:43.589
>> well
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:44.309
>> uh well I think
00:41:44.319 --> 00:41:46.630
>> not dark glasses not dark glasses Ray-B
00:41:46.640 --> 00:41:48.710
band glasses not dark glasses
00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:50.710
>> yeah yeah so v various companies make
00:41:50.720 --> 00:41:53.510
these so so okay you can you can get You
00:41:53.520 --> 00:41:56.230
can get like RayBan's AI glasses that
00:41:56.240 --> 00:41:58.390
don't do this that they they do things.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:00.309
I mean, they're used for sports and that
00:42:00.319 --> 00:42:02.309
sort of thing. So, you put those on and
00:42:02.319 --> 00:42:04.069
they, you know, they tell you things
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:05.430
like how fast you're going and, you
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.510
know, that kind of stuff. Uh, and that,
00:42:07.520 --> 00:42:08.950
you know, obviously there's a use case
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:11.270
for that kind of thing. Um, but what
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:12.790
these do in particular, what they've
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:14.870
been explicitly designed to do is have
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.670
cameras in them which yeah, which take
00:42:17.680 --> 00:42:20.150
pictures of the exam content and then
00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:24.870
feed via the internet responses. Uh, so
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:26.950
so clearly clearly you'd ban those in a
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.430
high stake environment. Put it this way.
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:30.630
If you're enforcement,
00:42:30.640 --> 00:42:34.390
>> if you're a an exam invigilator and 100%
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:36.390
of the students in front of you are
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.550
wearing glasses, you might can think
00:42:38.560 --> 00:42:41.190
there's something a miss.
00:42:41.200 --> 00:42:44.550
>> Wow. Yeah. And and you you might very
00:42:44.560 --> 00:42:46.470
well think that, but the point the point
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:48.069
is that they're they're pretty hard to
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:51.670
spot. So So what do we do?
00:42:51.680 --> 00:42:53.829
>> Glasses are easy to spot.
00:42:53.839 --> 00:42:56.150
>> Glasses are easy to spot. AI glasses are
00:42:56.160 --> 00:42:58.950
hard to differentiate from uh nonAI
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:03.030
glasses is the point. And so yeah, so
00:43:03.040 --> 00:43:04.550
you know obviously we don't want to we
00:43:04.560 --> 00:43:06.550
don't want to create a situation where
00:43:06.560 --> 00:43:09.030
we're saying right let's you know this
00:43:09.040 --> 00:43:11.670
is the GK chess and Spencer right all
00:43:11.680 --> 00:43:12.870
ban all glasses.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:13.670
>> Yeah.
00:43:13.680 --> 00:43:15.349
>> Uh
00:43:15.359 --> 00:43:18.230
because that would have
00:43:18.240 --> 00:43:18.870
>> let's do that.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:20.150
>> I mean that would be fair wouldn't it?
00:43:20.160 --> 00:43:22.390
That would be fair. Um but
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:23.990
>> if you can't if you can't read properly
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.990
without glasses that's something we test
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:27.670
for you know there's the bell curve I
00:43:27.680 --> 00:43:29.030
mean based on
00:43:29.040 --> 00:43:31.670
>> maybe an easier thing to do
00:43:31.680 --> 00:43:33.430
>> right maybe maybe the easier thing to do
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.270
would be to make examples some kind of
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.829
Faraday cage where the glasses don't
00:43:37.839 --> 00:43:40.550
work that's that's probably possible
00:43:40.560 --> 00:43:43.190
isn't it but um but the point is you
00:43:43.200 --> 00:43:45.910
know that you know we're on it's not so
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:47.670
much that this is happening and this is
00:43:47.680 --> 00:43:49.910
a possibility it's just that there's an
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:51.910
inevitability to this. I mean like as
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:54.550
you said had you had that that as an
00:43:54.560 --> 00:43:58.470
option you'd have used it. Um we know
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:00.390
that from you know from the self-report
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.190
of students in universities that a
00:44:03.200 --> 00:44:05.829
significant minor majority of students
00:44:05.839 --> 00:44:09.190
are using AI to write their assignments.
00:44:09.200 --> 00:44:12.630
>> 96% I think it is is very high
00:44:12.640 --> 00:44:15.589
>> very very high. Um there's also sort of
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.190
very broad suspicion that uh university
00:44:19.200 --> 00:44:22.790
tutors are using AI to mark AI generated
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:25.190
content. So no human involved at any
00:44:25.200 --> 00:44:26.950
stage of the process
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:28.550
>> writing of course that I mean a lot of
00:44:28.560 --> 00:44:30.309
teachers probably using AI to write
00:44:30.319 --> 00:44:31.109
reports.
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:33.349
>> Oh god these days. Yeah really you know.
00:44:33.359 --> 00:44:36.630
Yeah absolutely. I mean back back in the
00:44:36.640 --> 00:44:39.349
day we used very very unsophisticated
00:44:39.359 --> 00:44:42.230
forms of intelligence to try and short
00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:44.870
>> reports. you. Well, just putting just
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:47.750
putting like um macros on on things
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:49.430
where you could sort of substitute names
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:51.510
and pronouns in and that kind of thing,
00:44:51.520 --> 00:44:53.190
you know, because it's tedious. Yeah, I
00:44:53.200 --> 00:44:54.550
know. I know. I mean, I remember
00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:56.870
obviously when I was at school, Martin,
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.829
when I was a student that uh the reports
00:44:59.839 --> 00:45:02.069
I've still got some copies of the
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:03.670
reports that my teachers wrote about me,
00:45:03.680 --> 00:45:06.710
and they were short, piffy, very rude at
00:45:06.720 --> 00:45:09.829
times. So, my physics teacher, my dad
00:45:09.839 --> 00:45:12.069
loved this. He described me as so dense
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.470
I could bend light and u
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:15.829
>> very good that
00:45:15.839 --> 00:45:17.589
>> it's very good. He's obviously used that
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:18.390
a lot though, hasn't he?
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:20.069
>> I think so. It's a sort of
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:21.510
>> That was an old favorite.
00:45:21.520 --> 00:45:23.349
>> That was his one joke that worked really
00:45:23.359 --> 00:45:24.390
well over the years.
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.550
>> Exactly. Exactly. But my dad loved that.
00:45:26.560 --> 00:45:28.870
And um I think so. And obviously we
00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:31.910
>> Yeah, I know. And but even, you know,
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:33.910
routinely in my school reports, there's
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:36.470
like a a one-s sentence kind of slagging
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:39.430
of my effort and achievement. And uh and
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:41.190
now obviously we need paragraphs and
00:45:41.200 --> 00:45:44.069
paragraphs of platitudes and why
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:46.069
>> all of them saying nice things. All of
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:47.750
them saying nice things because they
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.750
can't the children can't put up with
00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:52.870
being dense or being told they're dense.
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.109
>> No. Too much of a safeguarding risk to
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:56.470
confront them with the truth.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:58.470
>> Yeah. God.
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:02.309
>> So So you know there's
00:46:02.319 --> 00:46:05.430
Sorry. Was that the truth about you?
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:07.510
>> Well I No. I can't literally bend light.
00:46:07.520 --> 00:46:09.510
No. I just wasn't very good at scissors.
00:46:09.520 --> 00:46:11.589
The densess, not the bending light
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:12.790
thing.
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:14.710
>> Yeah, I I can't not what I'm not I'm
00:46:14.720 --> 00:46:16.390
still not very good at physics. And
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:19.510
>> and in everyday life, my um our sort of
00:46:19.520 --> 00:46:21.430
family joke, I'll sort of I'll commit
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:23.670
some sort of blunder and my wife will
00:46:23.680 --> 00:46:25.910
go, "It's physics." And uh and we all
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.870
chuckle. I know. I know. That's what
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:31.030
it's like in the Dow household, boys and
00:46:31.040 --> 00:46:35.510
girls. Um I know. I know. But anyway,
00:46:35.520 --> 00:46:38.150
the point the part of the point is, you
00:46:38.160 --> 00:46:39.589
know, like what do we do with
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.790
assessment? Because we're we've kind of
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:44.870
we've broadly agreed that obviously
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:46.309
there's people that don't agree that,
00:46:46.319 --> 00:46:49.670
you know, we course work's kind of
00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:52.230
meaningless. 96% of university students
00:46:52.240 --> 00:46:54.069
getting II to write their assignments
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:55.589
makes it meaningless. Who's got the
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:57.589
better AI skills rather than who knows
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:02.870
the stuff. So, you know, that that
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:04.710
the exam
00:47:04.720 --> 00:47:06.470
paper and pencil exams look like the
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:08.870
only way to safeguard
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:11.430
high stakes assessment. And now, you
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:13.589
know, okay, we could ban glasses and we
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:15.190
can sort of find ways to sort of make
00:47:15.200 --> 00:47:17.589
these things easier and easier to spot
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:20.069
and all the rest of it. But it's a thin
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:21.270
end of the wedge and we're going to
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:22.870
we're going to be it won't be it won't
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:24.710
be so long before we have AI contact
00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:28.390
lenses and things which aren't possible.
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:31.270
the the the input in the brain, the um
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:33.990
silicon chip inside the head
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.790
>> gets switched to overload.
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:38.390
>> Um yeah, but
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:40.710
>> tell me tell me tell me why I don't like
00:47:40.720 --> 00:47:42.470
uh this. Yeah,
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.910
>> but what I mean it comes to the point
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:45.030
where I mean that's what they're looking
00:47:45.040 --> 00:47:47.510
at trying to do is is to
00:47:47.520 --> 00:47:50.630
>> is to you know so what are you actually
00:47:50.640 --> 00:47:51.829
>> very cyber punk
00:47:51.839 --> 00:47:55.270
>> it's it becomes becomes the you know
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:56.950
it's a philosophical question we've
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:59.589
actually asked for years
00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:02.069
>> you know whether it be open book exams
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.630
>> or you know other things about having
00:48:04.640 --> 00:48:06.069
information at your fingertips or
00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:08.230
whether you need to
00:48:08.240 --> 00:48:10.230
revise a lot and just have the knowledge
00:48:10.240 --> 00:48:11.990
in your head and then if you forget
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:13.349
something, well that's your fault and
00:48:13.359 --> 00:48:15.589
that's what the exam is trying to trick
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:15.990
you.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:16.470
>> Yeah.
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:18.710
>> Um to find you out if you actually can
00:48:18.720 --> 00:48:21.589
remember things. I mean you know there
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:23.910
there is a big question here about what
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:27.190
exams are for as well when it comes to
00:48:27.200 --> 00:48:30.390
>> when people are outsourcing memory
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.630
>> which is what going back to libraries
00:48:32.640 --> 00:48:34.549
you know that that's the the big thing
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:36.710
about books in the first place was it
00:48:36.720 --> 00:48:39.750
allowed us to suddenly access a hell of
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:41.990
a lot more information we can actually
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:44.069
and I use this word advisedly because
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:46.069
there's a lot of stuff coming out now
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:47.990
that we brains don't store information
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.710
but that that's that's for another day.
00:48:50.720 --> 00:48:54.150
>> But um let's say that we we can actually
00:48:54.160 --> 00:48:56.710
>> access through our minds at any one
00:48:56.720 --> 00:48:58.230
time, you know, so that the written
00:48:58.240 --> 00:49:01.670
word. So an open book exam, physics
00:49:01.680 --> 00:49:04.870
formula, maths formula,
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:05.589
>> books, you know,
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.710
>> look. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean it's
00:49:08.720 --> 00:49:11.829
it I think it I think what it tells us
00:49:11.839 --> 00:49:14.230
is that you know we need to rethink we
00:49:14.240 --> 00:49:15.510
need to think very careful care
00:49:15.520 --> 00:49:17.910
carefully about what assessment is what
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.390
it's for what we hope to achieve with it
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:22.230
if it's so high stakes that people are
00:49:22.240 --> 00:49:23.829
wanting to do this kind of like rent
00:49:23.839 --> 00:49:26.309
glasses you know maybe maybe we've made
00:49:26.319 --> 00:49:29.430
some kind of mistake um and you know
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:30.950
maybe maybe something else needs to
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:32.950
happen maybe it suggests something about
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:35.670
sort of orally oral assessment vivors I
00:49:35.680 --> 00:49:37.190
mean there was a thing at the the week
00:49:37.200 --> 00:49:39.109
wasn't there where Allison Peacock wrote
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:41.510
a TS article which seemed a bit silly
00:49:41.520 --> 00:49:43.910
about getting AI to assess oracy which
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.870
sounded absurd but getting using orus or
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:50.710
oral
00:49:50.720 --> 00:49:52.790
assessment to assess content knowledge
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.190
is not is not a bad idea it's just hard
00:49:55.200 --> 00:49:57.990
to do at scale so I'm sure there are
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.309
technological solutions to that which
00:50:00.319 --> 00:50:02.710
are then gameable and yada yada yada
00:50:02.720 --> 00:50:04.710
>> that's also whether how accurate you
00:50:04.720 --> 00:50:06.710
need assessment to be on on certain
00:50:06.720 --> 00:50:08.870
things and how much subjectivity you can
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:11.190
actually put in the system. What about
00:50:11.200 --> 00:50:13.829
um pub quizzes?
00:50:13.839 --> 00:50:15.109
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:16.630
>> No, but I mean seriously, you know,
00:50:16.640 --> 00:50:18.470
because the pub quiz you think would be
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:20.950
defunct now, wouldn't you? But actually,
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:23.109
people go there with with a and I'm
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:24.870
going to use the term advisedly
00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:27.190
gentleman's agreement.
00:50:27.200 --> 00:50:29.589
>> Um I put gentlemen in inverted commas
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:31.589
there for the the viewers, for the
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:33.109
listeners.
00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:33.750
Um,
00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:34.710
>> yeah.
00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:36.870
>> So that you don't cheat. You don't go to
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:39.510
the toilet to uh check your phone or you
00:50:39.520 --> 00:50:41.510
don't have the phone underneath the the
00:50:41.520 --> 00:50:43.030
table and things like that.
00:50:43.040 --> 00:50:44.630
>> I'm sure it never happens, Martin.
00:50:44.640 --> 00:50:47.829
>> No, but if even then, and it's obviously
00:50:47.839 --> 00:50:49.589
not high stakes, but it is to some
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:52.710
people there there is this sort of um
00:50:52.720 --> 00:50:55.109
people who take it obsessively
00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:57.430
that there is the right thing to do and
00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.430
and the moral thing to do and and even
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.190
now when you do a crossword or something
00:51:01.200 --> 00:51:02.470
like that, you know. Yeah,
00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:05.510
>> you you can access so much or the word
00:51:05.520 --> 00:51:07.349
or anything, you know, you can access
00:51:07.359 --> 00:51:09.750
cheating tools so easily. But do you
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:11.430
cheat yourself
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.990
>> and do you feel you know?
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:16.230
>> Yeah. You're only cheating yourself.
00:51:16.240 --> 00:51:19.990
Yeah. That old hory old teachers maxim.
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.549
I mean, and it's it's true, isn't it?
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:24.790
That that technology isn't the problem.
00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:28.230
The problem is something in our desire
00:51:28.240 --> 00:51:30.630
to you. Do we want to cheat ourselves?
00:51:30.640 --> 00:51:33.190
Maybe, maybe not. But do we want to get
00:51:33.200 --> 00:51:36.470
advantages to get on in the world? Of
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.190
course we do. Who who wouldn't? And
00:51:39.200 --> 00:51:41.190
whether we, you know, whether we whether
00:51:41.200 --> 00:51:44.710
those advantages are unfair or not is
00:51:44.720 --> 00:51:46.790
kind of well, it's not irrelevant, but
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.990
it's it sort of misses the point that
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:53.030
that we all want to be advantaged and we
00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:55.670
will all seek whatever advantage we can
00:51:55.680 --> 00:51:56.950
get away with. I guess.
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:58.630
>> Mhm.
00:51:58.640 --> 00:52:00.470
>> Listen, we've banged on probably lot
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.790
longer than we should have done,
00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:03.589
>> haven't we?
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:04.390
>> Oh, we're we're
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:05.190
>> Should we
00:52:05.200 --> 00:52:05.910
>> We We should
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:07.030
>> Are we just warming up?
00:52:07.040 --> 00:52:09.430
>> No. No. No. God, no. We We're going to
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:11.829
Yeah, we we can bring it to the to the
00:52:11.839 --> 00:52:15.270
strands together as I think you call it.
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.470
>> Yeah. So, you know, we've got school
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:20.390
leaders using AI to avoid making
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.470
judgments. We've got students using AI
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:25.829
to avoid learning stuff. Is the issue
00:52:25.839 --> 00:52:28.069
AI? Is the issue technology? Or is it
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.910
the erosion of confident human judgment?
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:34.870
And and if schools no longer trust
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:37.510
librarians and exams can't trust
00:52:37.520 --> 00:52:40.549
students, then
00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:42.710
why would the why would why why should
00:52:42.720 --> 00:52:44.630
we trust education to pursue its own
00:52:44.640 --> 00:52:47.910
end? Everything becomes a performance or
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:51.270
a security procedure. So,
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:52.069
>> but these these are
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:54.309
>> Are we heading off into a dystopia,
00:52:54.319 --> 00:52:54.950
Martin?
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:55.670
>> Well, these are
00:52:55.680 --> 00:52:57.190
>> Are we there already?
00:52:57.200 --> 00:52:58.549
>> We're we're at the Brave New World,
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:00.069
whether we like it or not, you know, but
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:01.349
that's that's another book that's
00:53:01.359 --> 00:53:03.109
probably banned from a library near you
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.270
from from uh next week.
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:10.309
>> But, um I I think the more that slightly
00:53:10.319 --> 00:53:12.470
dangerous books are read, the better
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:14.470
probably. and uh
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:15.670
>> right and
00:53:15.680 --> 00:53:19.109
>> okay so if more slightly dangerous
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:20.710
emphasis on slightly there
00:53:20.720 --> 00:53:23.349
>> if if boys if boys only know that that
00:53:23.359 --> 00:53:25.430
certain books are dangerous that that
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:27.109
might get them back into libraries you
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:29.990
know the slightly dangerous and slightly
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:32.230
I'm using that term because yeah you
00:53:32.240 --> 00:53:33.990
don't want them to be
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:36.230
>> no well it sounds like a publishers
00:53:36.240 --> 00:53:39.589
marketing u event there that we've got a
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.069
series edited by Martin Robinson of
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:45.270
slightly dangerous books for boys.
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:45.910
>> And on that note,
00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:49.430
>> fantastic. And on that note, uh, thank
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:51.990
you very much for wasting more of your
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:55.510
life with us. Um, I'm sure you regret it
00:53:55.520 --> 00:53:57.030
if you've made it through this far. But
00:53:57.040 --> 00:53:58.790
if you don't, and you didn't at the
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:00.470
beginning, what should they do, Martin?
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:03.190
>> They should definitely
00:54:03.200 --> 00:54:05.430
like and subscribe and do all those
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:07.270
sorts of things. And I think I've got a
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.430
little little tool that can Oh, go on.
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:11.430
There it is. Look at that. Amazing. As
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.150
if by magic. I love the way it rolled in
00:54:14.160 --> 00:54:15.910
there. Oh, and out again. There we are.
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:17.190
>> Extraordinary.
00:54:17.200 --> 00:54:19.109
>> Did you get AI to make that, Martin?
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:21.670
>> Um, I don't know. I I I did it on the
00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:22.150
thing.
00:54:22.160 --> 00:54:23.829
>> Well, the fact that you don't know.
00:54:23.839 --> 00:54:25.430
>> I don't know if that's called AI. I
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:27.510
mean, I don't know if that's what AI
00:54:27.520 --> 00:54:29.589
does on this. I made it myself as far as
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:30.549
I'm concerned, you know.
00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:33.750
>> All right. All right, granddad.
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:35.750
>> I did I did the things, but I don't
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:38.309
know. Underneath the bonnet is AI, I
00:54:38.319 --> 00:54:39.270
don't think. But
00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:40.390
>> you did the things.
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:42.150
>> I've got no idea. physics. You know, I
00:54:42.160 --> 00:54:44.710
got a B in physics, by the way.
00:54:44.720 --> 00:54:45.910
>> Ah, I didn't.
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:48.549
>> I'm not dense like like you are.
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:49.430
>> Clearly not.
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:52.150
>> I know. You heard it here first. All
00:54:52.160 --> 00:54:55.190
right. Well, thank you um for my very
00:54:55.200 --> 00:54:58.069
intelligent co-host Martin
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.510
and the and the slightly dense David.
00:55:01.520 --> 00:55:02.390
>> See you later. All
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:07.000
>> very dense. Byebye.