Damien: Just because people want to have sex with you does not mean that they want to pick you. They want to pick you for now. And my thing is I think the idea of marriage in the Western context needs some refinement.
Josh: I mean it definitely needs to be better understood, meaning we need to return to the original
Damien: Meaning. When you say get back to what it means, I don't think it really grasped everything that it needed to be from the beginning. What do we do in a relationship where someone has grown in a way that I didn't expect? What if I am not on board with that growth?
Josh: Yeah. What kind of things you got into this week? Anything cool you saw?
Damien: I wouldn't say anything cool. but today actually I was listening to Hassan on the Breakfast
Josh: Piker, yeah.
Damien: Club. Hassan Piker, yeah. On the Breakfast
Josh: Nice.
Damien: Club. It's just nonsense. It's not
Josh: Ha ha ha.
Damien: like everybody and I looking, and I'm a comment watcher, so I'm just looking at the comments and I'm thinking like, I'm looking like and that what I see is, he's so intelligent. the America doesn't want you to know this. And what it brings me around to is if I look at it in three simple s simple simple areas, I see like the the radicals, right? And this is kinda like the some of the videos I bring up, the radicals, the ones we kinda went over before, and even people like Hussan Piker, it's kinda like a DSA. And for me, I'm I like I like their questions. I like the fact that they're questioning things, right? But then
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: I also I never wanted to be misconstrued that like because I'm presenting or you might hear me say something that's rooted in reason or rationality or or fighting for the basic principles in the country. I don't want people to to misconstrue that to say that that means I'm like caping for what's going on right now. You know what
Josh: Right.
Damien: I mean? 'Cause because it's not what I'm cap you may think that what's going on here is rational and ra and reasonable and and all of these things. But no, that's not what I want. That's not that's not the message that I'm trying to provide at all.
Josh: Exactly.
Damien: but at the same time, like when people when they ask these dumb questions or s have these dumb points, I'm like, nobody really should pay attention. I don't know. I guess I would say nobody should really pay attention to it. Cause that when I'm listening to the Hassan Piker interview, one of his points is like man, th look at how America treats Cuba. you know, it's just like this thing that they just wanna keep penalizing them over and over and over again 'cause it makes them feel good to be like the big bully or something that I and I'm paraphrasing, it's not exactly what he's saying, but he's just like
Josh: That's that is a that that is that is a jest.
Damien: Right. this is back to this thing about you're not really distinguishing between good and bad. Because I'm I'm pretty sure if you were to ask the Cubans who are here, they would tell you they really didn't like what they were going through. You know what I'm saying? And it's not just,
Josh: Right.
Damien: it's all cool now. Why why is America just tripping? Why why is there an embargo? Right. So it's but stuff like
Josh: Right? Why aren't they being so mean? Why ar why aren't they just going out with kindness? Why aren't they trying to kill with kindness? It's like No. No.
Damien: that. He's just like, man, China is doing business with the rest of the world. Why are we not doing business with China the way that they do business with the rest of the world? And this is the p that's the what got me to the point of I can't necessarily speak for Trump and why they don't do business with China like that. But There are some not good things. There are some reasons that you may not do business with countries, you
Josh: Right.
Damien: know. And but he when you just have the sympathetic, basically everything other than America is the other, right? And so it's just the other thing. Whatever the other thing is, and regard just if regardless of good or bad, why don't why aren't we just doing the other thing? This is like the whole like the metric conversation. Everybody else is on the metric system. Why don't we just get on the metric system? I mean, I guess it's a question, but
Josh: Right. We can we can debate pros and cons. There's nothing nothing wrong with that. But we we are on this system for you know, tradition and some other reasons. So this is where we at this is where we are.
Damien: Right. So is it but my my default position isn't like everybody else is doing it or I don't know it.
Josh: Right. Consensus doesn't make it right. That's not that's not our s that's not our standard.
Damien: Right, consensus doesn't make it right. And I just can't I g I I gotta remember not to get frustrated with people like him because in my mind, like I said, they don't really matter. The radicals don't matter as as much. But the issue with me is that the mainstream is my focus. Because the mainstream once the mainstream gets so ridiculous, they can't it becomes a age of skepticism.
Josh: Right.
Damien: And then One of things that Piker was saying in the interview is that well people have started to listen to these ideas more. And see to me that's a mainstream because it was ridiculous. It was always ridiculous, but people are now listening because they everything
Josh: It was always ridiculous.
Damien: is ridiculous. So what's one ridiculous thing from the other ridiculous thing?
Josh: Right? How's this how's this different? How's this worse? How is that a problem? It's like, because it was always a problem. It was always a problem before. That's why the people who practiced it died. It was not good. It was not good. That was
Damien: Not good at all.
Josh: that was a sign that the thing that they were doing wasn't beneficial. It's like, well, people are talking about it more now. Maybe we just need to do it differently. Like I mean, there's only so many ways to do the wrong thing. wrong.
Damien: And not die.
Josh: Right, and not die. We're trying to if our goal is life that we probably shouldn't pursue the thing that led to death in the past and in the present. Seems like a bad choice for the future. If you want there to be a future. Anyway.
Damien: Yeah. So but I think like if you don't answer the questions, then you really are just pushing the status quo. Which I'm not tr I'm not trying to push the status quo. That's not what I'm pushing for at all. So
Josh: Not alone. I don't want anyone to walk around thoughtless just following whatever traditions we just happen to be handed and just pick picking up whatever rule it is and just following this blindly and like, no, no. We need people who are actively paying attention, who can adapt to life as it changes. The only thing that separates this moment from the next moment from the next moment is the change. Well, I need you to pay attention to the changes, but I also need you to process the changes with data and say like, what is this data telling me? Not what I feel about it, not do I like it. What is it telling me? So I can actively use that data to make a conclusion to say what can we do to make sure that we have what we need, that we get our foundation together, and that we have enough reserve to actively move in the right direction to build an asset? Like how can we grow? What what does growth look like? I want to see more of those questions being thought through and answered. And that's not what I hear a lot, to be fair.
Damien: So yes, but you kind of touching on a point that I feel like I've come to agree with that I don't know that everybody else sees it the same way that I do. Because I just look at it like there mainstream status quo society, the proportion is just gonna be like that. The proportion
Josh: Yes.
Damien: of the mainstream of people who are kinda aware of things but not too deep into things. That's gonna be like that. And I'm not trying to, I don't think that it's helpful to kind of like beat them over the head like, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do that.
Josh: Ha ha ha.
Damien: Cause I think a lot of times they do well enough, right? They they do well enough for
Josh: Yes.
Damien: what's what's what the the the general conception of things are, like the collective idea is, right? But it's on the leaders, it's on the people that lead to have those conversations. to to stretch society. And it's not
Josh: It's also people who are in the limelight, like the people who are the most popular who are get the most public attention. I'm like, hey, if you're gonna s come over here and say you have an idea and I want your idea to be based on fact, I want you to ha want your claims to have evidence behind them. If you're going to come out here, I I'm not sure if you associate everyone with a platform as as a leader, but I'm I when people with a platform say crazy things or say things that are irrational, I I want to see more accountability where Clarity can happen. Because they're allowed to have their opinions, and I think that's fine. I just think I find it unhelpful, repulsive, when people who have a platform get on on their on their on their soapbox and say crazy things that could actively harm people. I'm like, this is this is going to lead toward toward problems.
Damien: Yeah, I mean platforms are so commonplace. I mean platform the word platform is funny to me anyway. It's like
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: anybody that just got has a camera can turn on their their camera and just be on a platform. So
Josh: Right. It's just the popularity piece that I'm just like, hey, once you once you ga gain a certain amount of market share, it you have a I wouldn't call it a even a responsibility, but but they do. But out you have a You have a significant amount of influence and I would like to see that influence held accountable. I want to see I want to see that that level of influence effectively communicate things that are going to be mutually beneficial. And that's to I s that's to me I'm like, this is a bare minimum. Could we please just say things that you found helpful? I I'll just take a basic bare minimum reporting. Just say, I like this thing because it helped me. I'm like, that'd be great. Share your solutions, please.
Damien: Yeah, but that's where for me I've probably kind of gotten just used to like the colors, the spectrum of society. Because I
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: I don't really expect I expect the people who are supposed to play their part to play their parts. Just like if I'm listening to Hassan Piker, like I don't think he shouldn't be here saying that. I'm saying that, okay, where's the counter argument? Where's the where's the person who is saying that this is ridiculous? And that's when I'm like, Well well, I'll say it's ridiculous. You know what I'm saying? You know.
Josh: Exactly. If nothing else we could say, that doesn't exist here because it didn't work. And that doesn't exist here because we don't do that here, and we're just different. That's there are some differences that we just have. That's fine. Nothing moral, not right or wrong about it. It's just how we develop.
Damien: Well, some of it is moral though. Some it does have more foundations. But and to me that's the whole point of it, right? But
Josh: That's the part you really have to focus in on.
Damien: Yeah, but that but that also so like like I don't that's what I'm saying. That's that's why I don't really get mad at radicals. I just I get confused because they say a lot of things that don't make sense. But
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: then if you think about it in a in a in a lane like where you understand, just like personality type helped me understand that they are TE driven people. There are people who are worried who are tuned into to the collective conceptual consensus ideas, right? And they live through that. If the people don't say this, then they're not they're not going to they may even have a disagreement, but they would repress that disagreement within themselves to conform to what the consensus is is really talking about for the most part. and but then understanding that. Just that type of orientation, like going through that book writing process kind of helped me. Well, it's not just that, even not even having a personality type group, just to see how all of these personalities mesh together and people might bring, you know, all different kinds of people bring different points up. And then there are things that at some point in time, like I I had this interview like last last week. The guy, he was heavy Christ heavily Christian dude. And I don't think he understood my argument from my book in the beginning that I'm not arguing to control people. I don't I'm not going out there and saying, Hey, everybody should be more thoughtful. Everybody should be doing this. Everybody should be thinking more. I'm saying that The the principles that govern the land, the leadership, the things that we de develop our ideas behind need to be rooted in this ideology or mentality right here. That doesn't really have anything to do with the people.
Josh: Right. And it's not a universal standard. It's a standard we're holding our leaders to, which makes sense.
Damien: Yeah. I mean even the country as well too though. It's like the standard is like a threshold, right? To me. It's it's it's just a basic, right? It's the it's a outline or what they call a stroke in in design. Whereas though the fill is the society, it's the colors, it's the variety. It's like, yeah yeah. Have all the fun you want, but you can't we gotta have some boundaries here. And these are the
Josh: Gotta have some boundary.
Damien: boundaries. That's all it is. and also people who some people when they get too strict with the boundaries, that's not a good thing. That's I'm not for that because it's like yo, you're tightening you tightening the reins on society just because you want to feel like you're in control of things when that's not the proper way.
Josh: Or may maybe you just want people to be more in line with what you think should happen in life. In sense of like there are people who tighten the boundaries to a point that limits everybody by their own limitations. And I think that's something that is that's where that's where I'm like, this is this is too much now. You want people to be just like you, to accept your exact traditions and customs and you know, there are certain ways you can talk about this, like, hey, generally we shouldn't We shouldn't we shouldn't murder, we shouldn't steal, we shouldn't take people's property or life or their liberty. It's like, okay. That's a that's a that's a big enough boundary for us to operate in. Cool. Like also you have to eat tacos on Tuesdays and you have to be specifically wearing
Damien: Mm.
Josh: blue at this particular time, otherwise we're gonna, you know, punish you. It's like, okay, now we're doing things you do. That's too much. Too much. Bringing it need you to need you to rein it rain it back in and focus in on these broad strokes again.
Damien: Yeah. But I mean I think I don't think that you said anything different than I was saying, right? Because it's I think a lot of I think the purpose behind an idea a thinking like that is to control the world. Even if it's subconscious. Well
Josh: I don't know if it is the control. Some people don't care about control more than they want comfort. It's like, hey, the
Damien: But that's what I'm saying. When you can control the environment, that's what gives you the comfort. That's what I mean. So because
Josh: Yes. Yes.
Damien: now it's familiar to you or it's not unexpected. It's like, okay, okay, now I can be comfortable because things are happening the way that I want them to happen, but you're dealing with people.
Josh: Mm mm. Right. Which can't happen that way because everybody's different. But yeah, some people look at people using control as them exercising power in a form of abuse as as as if they are maliciously going out of their way to say, like, I want to control other people so that I feel stronger than them and so that I I can punish people I want to punish. I'm like, but that's not everyone's motivation. Some people aren't interested in how bad you feel. Some people are interested in actively, you know. Making themselves feel better. They actually don't think about you at all. Hmm.
Damien: That's true. But what you just explained was like one side of the coin, right? That's the sadistic side of the coin. But there's a masochistic.
Josh: all upset some people some people associate all forms of power and all forms of control with that sadistic side. And I'm like, that
Damien: Sad yeah, the sadistic side.
Josh: actually is not broad enough category. There are actually other motivations human beings have. They're just doing this 'cause they're
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: mean. I mean, they may also be mean. I'm not gonna rule that out, but let's not start there. Let's not attribute to ma malice, which you know, can easily be attributed to not just incompetence, but just complete and utter indifference. They don't care about you. They don't even know you yet. How could they possibly hate you?
Damien: That's true. Yeah. I pulled up this little video, if you wanna just check it out real quick. So yeah, I don't exactly remember what I got from this, but for whatever reason I saved it. So check it out.
FB Girl: this is so interesting. The conversation about the biggest birds are married women. I was such a bird. Such a bird. Let me tell y'all something. Christianity, on top of being married, had my mind so fucked up, y'all. I was such a fucking bird. And I'm gonna say this. And I was I was a wife that was that had the things. My husband bought me a car. I got real anniversary gifts, tennis bracelet, gold, gold, necklaces, diamond earrings, He would gift me things. I when Rihanna came out with her with the creepers and like Rihanna when she first started doing like Rihanna and the Puma. I my husband used to buy me so much stuff. He used to gift me so much stuff. He used to want me to work out. We went we worked out together, went to the gym together. All type of shit. Like we was we was a we was married. And we was the married couple that had everybody else around us wanting to get married. On the outside looking in, beautiful couple. My my husband was very attractive and I'm very attractive and we had a really beautiful daughter. but I was such a bird. Like when I tell y'all I used to walk around we when I used to get drunk and we used to go out with our friends. I used to be talking about how these bitches would take your husband. Whole time I knew my husband was cheating. I used to like I I just used to defend him at the drop of every dime because it was my husband over everybody. I was a real pick me at the time and you literally have to be at that time you it was almost like if you were married, you were a pick me. And I'm so sorry to the married women for saying this, but y'all know exactly what I'm talking about. Now there has been a spiritual awakening and now everybody is understanding that you can still have two. You can keep your mind, keep your autonomy, and also still have a man. But that man also has to be a different breed. You know what I mean? And it would be great if you could unpack your religion together and understand that that is some man-made bullshit that we were all brought up and taught. Like that was a script that was handed to us. And I realized that. I recognized that extremely fast when I left him. but I still coupled after leaving him. So I've grown up so much now, but immediately after leaving him, I got into another relationship. And then after I broke up with that guy, I got into another relationship. So I have had three serious relationships in my life. And after breaking up with my last boyfriend, I've been single this whole time. Now we've been in and out of each other's lives the entire time. I'm not finna lie about that. We have that's probably my longest running relationship because every year after we broke up, we have found our way back to each other. That's neither here nor there, but I'm I still remain single. I still remain single. I'm single to this day. But yes, I'm just here to agree that back when I was married, I was the biggest fucking bird and the biggest pick me. And those are facts. All of the things that the girls are saying right now be facts.
Damien: So that's interesting and I even saved that now that I think about it. I c I guess the the thing that stuck out to me for for real about the Commentary is just I'm trying to figure out what people are getting. Like, like when people get this Eureka moment, I'm like. What was realized? I'm listening to what her see what she's saying. I'm like,
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: what did she realize? She's like, yeah, you can have you and you can have the relationship too. But you don't have a relationship anymore. And
Josh: Nope.
Damien: how do we know that that's working? Like This is one of the things that make me more sad well, it's not sad.
Josh: Me sad. man.
Damien: Like Be because I just don't when I hear all of when I hear the comment I I see to me Immature men that can't deal with mature women. Immature women who can't deal with mature men. Immature women and immature women men getting together.
Josh: There it is.
Damien: I don't see a lot of mature and mature tick well, I do. I do see some. But
Josh: You look.
Damien: But it's just like the things that are being learned, people were saying, like, well, these today things are different and here's how they work. But when they explain it, Work is like a subjective word somehow. It's not actually working working. It's like
Josh: their their goals have shifted and so that now it's all now it's now they have a different perspective to where they're like, ideally this could happen. I'm like, but it's not happening for you specifically in this case. Well yes, but it could
Damien: Right.
Josh: though. It could have happened and maybe it sort of kinda did happen, you know, a few a few relationships ago. I'm like, I mean maybe, maybe. And I'm I there's so much to pick apart here, but it's just The the key parts I think are are the helpful parts where she's like, You can be a person. You can have an identity, you can have beliefs, you can look at things rationally. You're allowed to actively analyze your life, look at what's working, and make decisions as a human being. I'm like, Yes, you have that agency. It's like you don't have to just she's she realized that she didn't have to just sacrifice herself, her identity, her values, just so she could find a man and be in a relationship. And I'm I'm happy she realized that part. I'm like, great, excellent. But she couldn't. At least well, anyway, those are the pros. I thought that those pros pros are good. I think it's sad that the cons came out where she was just like, Well, everything I've been taught. I found out there were some problems with some of it, so I rejected all of it, and now I'm living over here. I'm like, okay, okay, that's something. That's that may not have been necessary. And also, my man
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: wanted things to stay the same and not change. I'm like, I mean, Big Just super hard to grow together. It's super hard for people to immediately change. I mean,
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: are are there things he was willing to work with you on to change it over time? Is was that even a possibility? I mean for her her case, he was actively not in the in the in the relationship. That that is different. So if he's actively cheating and running around and not doing anything, if he's not gonna honor your vow vows and actually actually commit to you and do things, then you know There is a case to be made, but we don't need to do this together. I'm like, alright, alright, alright. Unless that's that is a reasonable reason to go. But either way, all I'm saying is it's unless people spend a lot of time thinking about this, what I and what a lot of people would get from this just on the surface, it's just like, being married is a problem, I don't have to do that. Being with a man
Damien: Right, yeah.
Josh: being supportive of a man and being open to supporting him and defending him whenever he's what what attacked is is a problem and I don't have to do it now. I'm like, that is that is not the lesson. But I hear you. She did she she did mention that a lot. So
Damien: Yeah, man. I mean that that's the message that I'm hearing a lot of is
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: And but I think what the problem is is that for me is is it's that this female revolution, twenty twenty revolution or whatever we talking about,
Josh: give us.
Damien: it just reminds me of immature men. That that's what it really what it reminds me of.
Josh: Yes. This is immaturity, put on a different display. Sometimes men do it, sometimes women do it. Everybody's like, Look at me, I could be in charge. It's all about me. It's not about you. And if you want me to even do anything for you, you're the problem. Hm well wh when d when did this working together part happen? Because it sounds a lot like we're not working together at all and if I'm not actively doing what you want, then I'm the problem. And that seems like not a team. Seems really just like slavery. But okay, I hear what you're saying.
Damien: That's what I mean. Like There is wow a nobility in a a true conception of cooperation. Right? And cooperation, I think what people think cooperation is, is okay, I'll just give up, you do what you want. Or
Josh: Right.
Damien: you go, or you give up and I'll do what you or. you give up and you do what I want. That's not cooperation. You know.
Josh: At all at all. Concession is not compromise. Concession isn't interdependence. This is not the same at all. You lying down on
Damien: Good.
Josh: the ground and just giving up is not the same as you actually holding my hand and helping me overcome this obstacle together.
Damien: Yeah, working together because that's what creates the animosity because to me when a person if a person has no ability to cooperate, when you are like, Well, no, let's work together and this is what I think, they're like, You just you just want me to do what you want me to do. And I think that there's
Josh: Right.
Damien: some issues with there are some biological, sociological tendencies that are that really exacerbate this relationship piece. But if you never develop that ability to work with someone, you're just a bad partner.
Josh: You're a bad partner. There's no reason to keep doing this. You created a division and an obstacle now. And that's the part that needs to be said more clearly. When they're like, they didn't I don't want to be a pick me. Like you aren't. At this point, you're not a pick me for anyone, male or female. No one wants to pick
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: you. You are not a good partner.
Damien: Well, but see here's the thing. Here's the here's the misconception though. Women do this a lot, and I think maybe men do this too, but I don't really pay attention.
Josh: Immature people do this.
Damien: Just because people want to have sex with you does not mean that they want to pick you. They want to pick you for now. That's what they want you for. That's not,
Josh: Yeah right. Mm.
Damien: they don't want to consistently be have you be a part of their lives. They want you in and out.
Josh: Right. Right. They don't want you. They want the things you bring them and the feelings you cause them when they when they engage in intercourse. It's it's
Damien: Right.
Josh: a very and that's there's nothing wrong with pleasure, but when you make it the entire basis of a relationship, it's just an exchange.
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: And it's certainly not a commitment. I think that is the part that people get real confused as they look at interest as commitment. I'm like, that is not the same. They are not offering you commitment actually. This person is offering you attention, not not committing you to
Damien: Exactly.
Josh: rest for r for the rest of their lives or your life.
Damien: Exactly. So yeah. I know as a man, like I'm going for focus on the the woman part a lot more than some other people may, but that's because that's been my experience and that's what I've seen. Like just not the inability to cooperate, to in the inability to be an individual in a relationship, to sit to even push back when it's time to push back. Because when you're not rational, it's hard to it's you're not doing a thing together for a reason. You're doing, you're either doing the thing because they said so Or you're doing the thing because he's he said so. But there's not it's not necessarily, no, let's do this thing because this makes the the most sense for both of us. Most people I don't from my experience, most people are not getting there. It's just more of the I support, I support her. You we we're basically pandering to feelings most of the time.
Josh: There you go. That is the most common way to do it because it's where a lot of people start. And to be fair, you know, human beings, that's where we feelings are the most e the most easily accessible value judgments we have. And so when it comes to those things, it's super hard to evaluate those feelings and say, what are these really what are these values based on? Are there ways to achieve these values that don't end up harming us in the short or long term? Maybe we can talk about methods and have two people Focus on that on that third thing and say like maybe that maybe the third thing is in our our objective we can move toward. But yeah, the having that having that perspective requires a level of development that most people don't bother with or and and certain it is certainly not pushed forward as the ideal way to be. Like it's not looked at as a virtue in our current society, which is just very sad.
Damien: No, not It's pushed against from the s standpoint of the third thing. Like I remember hearing Trevor Noah one time talk about men always have to have the third thing when they're dealing with each other. It's like it just can't be we're hanging out, you and I. It's what's
Josh: Right.
Damien: that other thing that we're doing together? And I don't go direct
Josh: Goal directed relationships and actions.
Damien: the relationships. But s but see the thing is, like to me, that's what I that aspect just even pointing that out as like a feminine thing that he's pointing out. I was like, no, I just want
Josh: Ha ha
Damien: to mess into somebody else's to something else. And I don't, I'm not really into that. Like, and I and I'm not I'm not even open to this commentary about like, well, something wrong with you if you're not into into all of these highly f what I would call feminine traits. Like, I'm just I'm not in I'm not into it. You know?
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: But it's always made to be like something wrong with you. Like you all just want
Josh: Right.
Damien: you're like weak or whatever the some kind of derogatory term that that's gonna be brought up, you know, that you're not into the feminine thing. when men are having conversations like this it's not a metrosexual conversation, but this this the when they're having conversations with women on platforms or having these conversations on shows or something like that, it's something
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: that's lost in these conversations to me. Because Like, all right, I I don't know if you even remember, like the the the clip that I released earlier today, there's a guy and he's questioning the girl L. And he's like, Well, you think that these guys are supposed to fight? 'Cause he's basically giving her critique and then he's trying to figure out, Well, what do you think that they're supposed to do? so basically he's like, yo, what is the solution? This is you had the trans lady, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: His question is really, what is the solution? And this is my problem with it's not just women, but my problem with anybody that's taking this track. There is no solution. They just want to give you a consistent critique and explanation.
Josh: Right. She is not being solution minded. It's not a goal directed conversation. Her
Damien: No.
Josh: point is she wants to get her point. I don't like this guy. I don't like it. I don't like things like this. I don't like things that I associate with this. Like, well
Damien: Right.
Josh: how's that gonna solve the problem? No, I don't I'm not talking about Said it out loud. Right? Maybe we d maybe there is no resolution.
Damien: I'm not even intent. She said it out. She said it verbatim. She was like, I didn't give my resolution. And it's like
Josh: Maybe we maybe Even there's no reason to resolve the like okay, okay, we're not even having a conversation anymore. She is just expressing a a feeling she has.
Damien: Right. And and that's what I mean about men having these conversations with women. Because to me, the the male tendency is to be like, well, what do we do about these things? but there's also like this I don't know what it's like, a conceding. It's it's an energy where you don't wanna battle with the woman too much. And so you just like
Josh: Right. I mean but it's not it's not helpful in any partnership for one party to say if unless you come to my side we can't even have a conversation. It's like you know what? You seem like you're not even ready to have any real conversation where you where you can contribute to this point. You are not in the problem solving mode, you're in the empathy and I wanna be heard mode, which is a valid portion, like you are human. We all want to be seen. We all want to be heard,
Damien: Yeah, yeah.
Josh: and we can do that. It's just not what this conversation is for. Like you if you show up to the brainstorming meeting and you only want to say bad things exist, I'm like, that's actually not what the meeting is for. Now we can have a separate meeting even before this meeting, so you can get all your stuff together. But technically, that's what you should do by yourself or with somebody else who whose job
Damien: Right.
Josh: that is before you get to the brainstorming meeting. Because the brainstorm meeting is the time we're actually trying to present new ideas about how we're going to build on something. But yes, either way. Those are different goals.
Damien: But everything star sorry, sorry.
Josh: That's it.
Damien: No, everything turns into a brainstorm. This is my point. Everything turns into a brainstorming meeting because the guys are in there like, well, well, what about that solution though? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know, and it's right.
Josh: Right. They're all catching strings from all the people who are like, You didn't hear me though. You didn't what about the what about the my perspective?
Damien: Right. I think it just needs to be recognized. Like because I think that these people trying to carry out these conversations, like, everyone should be able to say what they need to say here, but then I'm I'm saying like, well, the conversation overall is weakened because we're not getting anything but that. We're not getting anything but I feel like I do or don't like this thing. That's end of conversation.
Josh: Yes, everybody should be
Damien: And then that's it.
Josh: heard as long as it's talking about something that is relevant to the conversation. And that is the part that is not happening, is that there is not a clear boundary. Like, we are going to now discuss this topic in view of since these things happened, what could be done about them in a way that is going to be edifying, causing f toward f going to be more tort flourishing or at least goal directed. I if you if that was the premise of the conversation and then somebody gets in their feelings and they're just like, I don't like this, and this person's a bad person and I don't like this system. You know, hey, hey, hey, that's true. And that's cool that you have this and I hear you. But we are
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: trying to focus here on like this conversation is expressly in t our express intent is to do this thing. Unless you have an idea and how to do this thing, please reserve some of those th those those opinions you have for after this or before this.
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: Other some some other time.
Damien: Yeah, well it's never gonna happen, bro. It's never gonna
Josh: It has never happened once in the history of the conversations I've seen. But that would be what a moderator is for. Like that's technically why we have
Damien: Mm.
Josh: hosts is so that they can actively direct the conversation. It's like people could always
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: say random things, but your goal as the host or the moderator is to keep things relevant to the conversation.
Damien: Yeah. I guess it doesn't help that to me, like content is content is not about answers. Content
Josh: Mostly no.
Damien: is always about sustaining just suspense. Hey, the answer is coming. Someday
Josh: Mm-hmm. Right.
Damien: soon, sometime soon, the answer's about to come. And
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: it's like you sitting there, it's it's like when you listen to these radicals and you listen to a lot of these people, you're like, you're never gonna say anything, are you? You always just gonna keep talking about how this is connected to this and that's connected to that and see this. You're never gonna tell us what what we should do. Are you? You you're never gonna say that. And
Josh: You're never gonna present data about things that you have done that solved the problem or things that actually could make things better. Making things better is not interesting to you. You don't seem like you're even remotely interested. In making things better for me, hmm. I'm gonna stop I'm going to stop expecting this.
Damien: Yeah. I you but I I I like to hear I have to listen to it with a I feel like a trained ear. just like when I was listening to Hassan Piker today. I'm not listening. Well, I'm I'm hoping that there's is a solution here, but when
Josh: Fine. That'd be nice.
Damien: there's not when there's not, I'm not surprised. I'm just listening for the mind trick thing. Like like what is it what good question are you asking? What what question what question could you submit to the rational people to fix? That's that's what I'm listening for.
Josh: Right.
Damien: Because I'm like, when I'm listening to these other people, I'm like, you're this is irrational. This is this is not getting to the point. It's not getting to fixing anything. I can't continuously listen to this. But you may bring up something that's nice, and then I might take that. and whittle away with it with little away at it in a in a in a in a means to try to fix it or fix something, right?
Josh: Right. You can find you can always eat the meat and leave the bone. You find the relevant part, you extract it, analyze that part, and then
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: finally say, Okay, this is the part they brought up, which is a real problem. Okay, thank you for
Damien: Right.
Josh: actively noticing that. And you don't like that problem and you even found a way to describe that problem that is incomplete. You found a portion that you didn't like, and so you generalized and you were like, it's terrible. Like, well, you know, bad things are bad. And so
Damien: Go ahead.
Josh: Now I know that this is a tactic people use and a way people use to describe this. Like, all right, now I can more appropriately figure out what their intent is and say, you're trying to get to this one thing that is a real problem. There are probably real solutions. I should look for those real solutions somewhere else. And then, you know, when someone brings us up and they overgeneralize and they present it like you present it, now I'll be prepared to say, ho, I remember this problem. I agree that this problem exists.
Damien: Uh-huh.
Josh: Have you thought about these solutions or what is your work toward that? Because you know they're not doing anything. So at least there's at least when they
Damien: Ha ha ha.
Josh: when they bring things up to and complain just for the sake of complaining, you get to then put them on the spot and say, how would you like to add to the solution? Because apparently this has already been solved.
Damien: Yeah, but when I say the trained air to me, I'm kinda getting s I told you this I'm getting set in my ways, right? Yes, I would like to hear a solution. But I don't expect I'm at the point I don't expect to hear a solution. All I expect to hear is better questions to ask. And and when I'm saying take those questions, basically I am saying, that's a good question. That's something that I would aim at the status quo mentality. that would op that would leave the door open for ridiculousness to come and s and and swoop in. Right.
Josh: Nice. So you can at least cut those cut those avenues off. You're like, all right.
Damien: Because that's the only avenue. That's the
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: that's what I mean about the fraying on the fabric of the country, right? There are a lot of they're the social ballasts, right? Right? There's there's the social
Josh: Right.
Damien: ballasts, but you're peeling off the the fraying is the peeling off of the core that they don't really know where, but they're just like they need they need a like a compass, like a something a good idea to follow, right? But if they don't have that, then these the the fray starts to sound sound I wouldn't say compelling, but reasonable. Right? It s it sounds reasonable. Right? And
Josh: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, in lieu in in in lieu of a good idea, people will choose any popular idea.
Damien: Right, exactly. So when when when you get people like Hassan Piker or or any of the the far left saying like, yeah, people are becoming more amenable t or more these these are ideas are becoming more palatable to this generation, it's like, something's wrong in the core foundation
Josh: Something's wrong.
Damien: here. but at the same time, the wrong because to me The core foundation is not deeply embedded. They need That's to me it all of these things come together to tell me what needs to be not implemented, but What do we need to like to shine a light on? So everybody's like, that's where we're going. okay, we're going there. You know
Josh: Right.
Damien: what I'm saying? Yeah.
Josh: good.
Damien: So it it it's that part for me. because like sometimes I'll say like this when I'm read some some of the comments and in in in in videos and stuff like that, or see people talk, I'm like, man,
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: it's a lot of people who actually know some stuff out there, right? But
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: I don't hear these ideas being promoted anywhere. Right? So I'll give you one. I don't know if you ever heard this one. This is interesting to me. So I think this might have been on the Piker video or Actually, no, I it was they was doing like a Thomas Sowell celebration recently, I think on a Hoover or something like that. I can't remember which one. But the dude put in the comment, he was saying, if I had two houses, would I give you one? Yes. if I had two guars, would I give you one? Yes. If I had two chickens, would I give you one? No. Because I actually have two chickens. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: But that was that mak but to me that that takes a level of thinking to understand. Okay, I would give you all the stuff that I don't really have. Sure.
Josh: That's it. That's funny. man.
Damien: Yeah, man
Josh: that is that is a funny joke. And you know, it it is it is it is a true statement because yes,
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: people are very good at giving away things they don't have.
Damien: Right.
Josh: It it points to the fact that there are some things that people do want and when they do have them, that if you want to have the things that they have, the way we engage with that is trade. And therefore we have to exchange value for value. And I think that is a part that I want like that that that to me highlights the fact that value exists and therefore it
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: needs to be communicated to people. This is what we are doing When we go to work, when we go to the marketplace, when we talk about the whole idea of capitalism or our economy or commerce in general, it's like we are giving we are trading something. We are quote unquote giving something away, but we are getting something in return. And it's not a wrong thing to do. It's not evil, it's not immoral just because we benefit. This isn't caught. We're trying to actively build something, therefore. We trade effectively and therefore none of us lose. It's a win-win. That's actually possible. That is what this whole society is built on.
Damien: And that's true, right? But here's the thing, like in what you just said. Because I'm kind of getting a away from that. Like, what you said sounds completely rational to me. I I it's almost like I feel like everybody the people who need to know that already know that, right? Be and my my issue is that that are it's not an argument, that explanation. is helpful for someone who's transitioning from immaturity to maturity, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: But it's not so helpful for someone who refuses to develop from immaturity to maturity. And
Josh: Right. It doesn't help ignorance.
Damien: right. And so when I'm dealing when I'm when when I'm thinking about talking to like the radicals and the people who love that type of thing, they just like, I don't even I don't even care that it makes sense. It's almost like Tetullian, like
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: like I believe it because it's ridiculous, you know?
Josh: Ha ha ha. Yes.
Damien: Be because if i if you were to hear like some of the stuff that P Piker was saying in this in this conversation, it's just like he makes it seem like, you know, making money is just this lottery. Who knows who's gonna make make money, you know, and and and you know everybody should be able everybody should be able to have the same kind of life, even though that's not the reality of his life and that's has nothing to do with the things that they do.
Josh: Right.
Damien: And you're just gonna take somebody else's money to do this thing. The point of the reason why I'm bringing that all up, all up is that. You can have all of these reasonable answers. They're no interested in hearing that. Like reason is not something that they're interested in. It's so
Josh: No. No. Reason is your justification for your claim. But yeah, when it comes to
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: people saying crazy things, then you and you and you go back down to the basic level of that is not allowed rule. And if they're like, hey, I don't even follow the rules and you go down, that is not possible. People are stronger than you. Like your nonsense isn't going to to isn't going to be tolerated. Even if you don't get it, it still won't be tolerated. And then eventually if you start believing that truth, acknowledging reality, then we can work on the rules stage. And then finally when you get past the rules stage, we can finally get to reason. But I can't I can't expect you to start at reason. I don't I don't pretend that they're gonna raise they're gonna grow to that level immediately.
Damien: No. And and I'm gonna tell you to me, one of I hope this is not totally unrelated. But one of the things he said to in the in the in the interview, which to me shows up in a lot of people is when they you ever see these people who go to other countries and then the other country does the other country thing and then they are like appalled, like, what are they doing doing this thing over here? This is totally ridiculous, like
Josh: Right. Completely different.
Damien: Y you're gonna go to jail for fifty years for something like you're in their country. You you're you are being judged by their rules. You don't get to dictate here. Just because you think that you have these global rules that you travel with, they don't people don't operate on these global rules. So this is why Brittany Grinder was almost going to go to jail for 10 years in Russia.
Josh: Right?
Damien: You know what I'm saying? But They just go to places like, man, you can't do this here and you can't this is totally crazy. Yeah, that that's their country. That's that's what they do. You get what I'm saying?
Josh: That's what they do. Expressly. And they told you they were very kind at least they at least they told you with words. Frequently people just find out with fists.
Damien: Right, exactly. Don't come over here with that. man. I was watching Law and Order last week. This old one. And basically it was a Nigerian. they were trafficking heroin through carriers. Carriers that carry heroin. And one of the per people died or whatever. And so they got caught up in some scheme, some scam. And basically the the the Nigerian consulate or whatever got into it and They wanted the the person extradited. So they just kind of play the game with the the the trial to kind of get it thrown out. So the person would go back to Nigeria and they were like, Yeah, y'all handle it one way here. We get back there, they done. You know what I'm saying? Right.
Josh: There will no longer be a problem from this person the rest of our lives. Nope.
Damien: So it's eye for an eye tooth for a tooth man some places.
Josh: yes. And I find that's one way to deal with things. And I it's it's not always terrible. It's not always wrong. I mean, there are real times where I'm just like, hey, maybe maybe we do less of this. Like with this whole trial for this lady now that everybody's talking about.
Damien: In the wheelchair.
Josh: The lady who killed her kids, what's her name?
Damien: Yeah, the one in the wheelchair. I don't know her name.
Josh: In a wheelchair, okay, there go. And so they're like, maybe, maybe it's insanity. I'm like, alright. And so, you know, we're all on the edge of our seats because you know, maybe she could she could get off with insanity. I'm like, okay, but like her actions still kill people. So
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: we're gonna make sure that doesn't happen, right? We have laws that we're gonna follow. So
Damien: Right.
Josh: that sounds like a plan. So you and and so someone said, so We should give her a hysterectomy then? I'm like no that's not where I was gonna go with that. Nope. I mean I get it, she does kill kids, and so her having kids is a concern, but there's lots of ways to stop people from having kids. You could just keep them from making kids. That's probably reasonable in her jail cell that she keeps far away from other people that she's murdering, right? We don't allow murderers just to like wander around afterwards, even if they're insane. Sometimes because
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: they're insane. Right? That's that's how that works. But either way, I mean I get it that people are looking at this as saying if she gets off if she gets declared insane, we shouldn't give her the death penalty. I'm like, Cool. Alright, I hear what you're saying. We should probably keep her away from children though. Certainly keep
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: her away from other people that she could kill. That seems like a reasonable step.
Damien: I mean, I agree. I thought you was gonna go another way because apparently man there's some conspiracy theory going around about this trial. I don't know if you've been catching that part of it.
Josh: I have not gotten that. I to me I do not understand why this is national news. Like it is it blows my mind that someone's like, hey, this is a murderer. This murder happened and that's wrong. I'm like, yeah, that's terrible. And like, yep. And now we don't know what's going to happen. What what do you mean you don't know what's going to happen? It's it's a murder trial that she confessed to that she's clearly not not well. What what probab what about that left room for Uncertainty. I'm literally just like dumbfounded. Like, why are you still talking to me about this? I don't understand it.
Damien: So but see, the conspiracy theorists have it in their mind that the man could have possibly done this.
Josh: Course, yes. clearly.
Damien: And because they like they got all of these camera views and what he was wearing and when he went to the CVS and what time it was, and and then like, well, he could have killed the kids and then did something with her.
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: And somehow I didn't really quite follow because the problem what it what it was, it's just one of these internet videos. I think I might have seen it on DJ Academics, matter of fact. But it's another dude, I forgot he I forgot he does these videos. I forgot his name. But The problem I had with it is that it's not something that the defense is saying. And it's not something that the police are saying. It's just
Josh: Ha ha
Damien: It's just a bunch of people who were playing internet detective looking at videos and timestamps and clothes and pictures and stuff. And so they're like, how could he get here and there with different clothes and this looks like a different, totally different person? And look at the mud on his boots. And look at this It's like,
Josh: Ha
Damien: I'm like, well, if the defense thought that, then I might engage in the argument because That's how they could get off. But they're not even claiming that. They're not even saying that this is what happened. But these people still running with the story, like, yo, but they're not saying it, but it looks like this guy could have done it. I'm like, wow, y'all, this not it's ridiculous to me because
Josh: It is ridiculous. That's that's the next level. But I'm there there were a lot of people on social media making fun of how surprised or how other women were phrasing or framing framing this whole situation as even when the woman confesses to being the problem, they find a new way to make the man the problem. They were just Clearly he's the man. Clearly he was doing it. He is the issue. But she she said she was the issue and she actively did it. No. Nope. It must be the man convincing her to do it. It's all just a big lie. What do you call people who lie nowadays? she's she's been gaslit. He's gaslighting her and d into doing
Damien: my god.
Josh: this whole thing. I I don't I don't think that's that's the answer. Nor if you watch the movie Gaslighting or Gaslight Gaslight you would you would know that's not what that means. Also,
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: what are we doing? Are we just we just denying the evidence of our ears and our eyes now just so we can claim that all people who have a penis are evil? It seems it seems excessive. I'm just throwing it out there.
Damien: Man look, I think I'm pretty sure that this kinda has been going on forever. And part of the problem is is men actually that's part of the problem because the there are terrible dudes, right? And yes. Right.
Josh: Yes, crime exists. I don't wanna ever pretend that crime doesn't exist. I just get really concerned when people sc skip over the evidence part and they're like, Everyone's a criminal like I don't think I don't think we can generalize to everyone. We need the we need to rein it in. Come on.
Damien: Yeah. But then men become suckers for women. They they they pander a lot of time. And some lotta people call it simping. But it's almost like the gentleman thing. It it's it's like I understand why a gentleman is a gentleman. It's it to me that that's rooted in some biological, sociological thing, right? But when you take it too far, like if whenever you're do being a gentleman like if some if a woman is treating you a certain way, you don't have to continue to be a gentleman. I mean you probably should just not you should probably disengage, first of all, you know what I'm saying?
Josh: There you go. That's what a gentleman would do. A gentleman would stop actively being stepped on and allowing and or enabling bad behavior. We shouldn't enable bad behavior.
Damien: You don't you don't you shouldn't im enable bad behavior. See the the the the bad behavior and from a man's standpoint can be attributed to simps and fuckboys. Those are the people who I wouldn't even say they advocate for bad behavior. They they have a t a tolerance for it. Because simps are thinking like, maybe it'll be my turn, maybe it'll be my turn one time, maybe it'll be my turn, right?
Josh: Right?
Damien: And then fuck boys, they just they don't really give a shit anyway, cause they just in and out. They just trying to figure out when they can get in and get out.
Josh: Right. There you go.
Damien: But men's actually have boundaries and and and like principles and stuff and that's
Josh: Ha ha.
Damien: kinda discomforting to people who don't like those types of things, you know. They don't it's it's not comfortable for you to always be having these rules and stuff, you know, when you're dealing with me.
Josh: Right. Yes. there they stand for something. Rude.
Damien: Right, exactly. but at the same time there's other aspect of it is just that there's an attractiveness and then just when a woman is real attractive, well men start to lose their minds. You know, especially
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: men who haven't had had a lot of experience with attractive women before. They just
Josh: Right.
Damien: it's like, well, I can simp a little bit. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: Right. It's just a little bad behavior. I could I can deal with this. It's everybody's gotta make compromises. But
Damien: I mean but that's but it but that's that's part of male woman interaction, courting and all of that. Like that there's just an aspect of the beauty piece that's beautiful woman just gonna get. She's got more options, she's
Josh: Yes.
Damien: got more appeal. and and and it can make you overlook the things that matter, the character pieces.
Josh: Right.
Damien: For a b for a bit. Not forever. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: There you go. Mm mm. These are all temporary forces.
Damien: Right. So yeah. But yeah, it's just I just there there has to be this reckoning somehow, man. Like there are people, many people out here talking about it. It's just that When I hear them talking about it typically it's within a traditional context. And I don't, you know me, I don't really like the traditional context. I think the traditional context has some merit, but I think the traditional context is so detached from the reason that it's just ex it's it's just doing the practical piece of it. It it's like, well, this is how you interact with a man. Why?
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: Why do you not yell and scream and punch and slap a man because he can beat you very badly. Right. Yes, that's not good.
Josh: I he will return that same level of violence on you. That's a bad choice.
Damien: Yes, not good for you because you're physically different on average. That's not a good thing for you. but then people are like, well you don't hit a girl. What these this is why you don't hit a girl, but if the girls now are not caring about all of this history and context that we have, and she just feels like she can punch you, then she's just like a weaker dude at some point. Like you know what I'm saying?
Josh: I mean, she's still human and if she does human things, she's going to get human consequences. And I think that's While it's fine to have a society and have customs and say like this is the way we have done things in the past and say, all right, well that's great. When people violate those customs and say, I don't have to do any of those rules, like you don't, but they're here for a reason. If you violate those, you will find out the reason. Because everyone is not
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: living at the perfect highest level of society, thinking like, I can just let it go and it'll be fine. Sometimes people can't let it go. Sometimes it isn't gonna be fine. You can't disrespect Well, one sometimes you shouldn't, yes. Sometimes
Damien: No. As you shouldn't. And sometimes you shouldn't. Right.
Josh: it isn't life or death, and some people overreact in the sense to say, I don't
Damien: yeah.
Josh: like this and now I'm gonna make it a life or death issue. I'm like, okay, now we need to calm back down. But like there are many forms of disrespect and there are ways to respond to respond to that appropriately. And I if you don't know that way, it it it's helpful for people to learn that earlier, but regardless. Society has customs. If you don't follow the customs, you're gonna find out there are consequences for a reason.
Damien: Yeah. Because man It is a psychological piece, man. It it's a psychological piece because this is why I got so upset with the movie Barbie. You know this already. Because
Josh: Yes.
Damien: it's like, yo, there's there are problems at times. Yes. But you're not solving the problem. It's you're supposed to help us elevate society and you're not doing that. You're not You're not saying, okay, I'm a woman and now I can make my own money and I'm independent. Let's cooperate together because you've you're interdependent. I'm interdependent. Let's cooperate together and elevate the whole thing. It's not that. It's just, hey,
Josh: You can take that.
Damien: I don't need you anymore. That's not true. That's it's not even true. Because
Josh: Mm right That's not how you got here, so you know that's not how we can continue, but also it's ignoring a lot of the entire point. But like it's yeah, Barbie is also super frustrating for me because they it played on a power dynamic instead of looking at any kind of grander flourishing or p or picture. They were like, you
Damien: Right.
Josh: had time to be in tr be in control. Now it's my time. My time to be in control. And you treated
Damien: Right.
Josh: me badly and now I get to treat you badly. I'm like, both of these are terrible character. I
Damien: Yes.
Josh: am not rooting for anyone. Both of you change
Damien: Yes.
Josh: and grow. This is terrible.
Damien: Yeah. It's horrible. It but it takes elevated people on both sides. May and like I told you to me, when I see some of the attitudes I see coming from women today, it reminds me just of an immature male. And so maybe that societal they need to go through that societal phase to kinda develop into a the ability to cooperate, but you have to have equals on both sides to do these things. Right?
Josh: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Damien: And Look, and then I'm seeing like some fascinating, like the WNBA is off the chain now. I mean, it it's been off
Josh: Right? It's crazy.
Damien: the chain for a minute, but I didn't I just wasn't aware,
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: you know what I'm saying? But I'm happy. I'm happy to see these things. But at the same time, like when I say that's not true, yes, biologically that's not true. Maybe biologically it can be true in the future, but The protection that is required that allows women to do these things was not done by women. it was not. we just gotta deal with that fact. We just gonna have to deal with that fact.
Josh: Need to acknowledge that part of reality.
Damien: Yes. And so you can't why would you be mad at men when they are the ones that are like, Trying to usher in. We're usher well, yeah, we are ushering in this. We're like, yo, look, do your thing. Like, we're
Josh: Right.
Damien: going to tell other all all the bad men not to mess with you. We're going to have policing. We're going to have, you know, armed forces. We're going to do those things so you have the ability to go and make your own money and be independent. Why would you male bash when the s that
Josh: Why would you male... why would you overgeneralize to the point of busting all the people who are your protection? It's like driving on a car and then finding the times like I get to hold the gun now and then shooting your tires. Why would you shoot your tire? These are your tires.
Damien: Ha ha ha.
Josh: What is happening in your mind where you think that is helpful to you? To you, the person that you say it it boggles my mind. Women say they want to be independent and they want to move forward and therefore they have to tear down the men in their lives. Like the ones in your
Damien: But
Josh: life? Your people? Aren't they the ones that kept you alive and kept you here? Like, well, some of them were bad. I hear you. And that's terrible. Criminals, criminals should be should be prosecuted and taken out. And that's fair. But like the criminals, they weren't all criminals. Like the people who were stealing from you. Aren't all like every man you know is not a thief. Some of them have to have stuff for these people to steal, right? Some of these people
Damien: Right.
Josh: did stuff. So those people are probably not the ones you mean. So probably if you want to be clearer, in your anger should be pointed at the crime and not these random people who just happen to be different than you. That seems excessive.
Damien: I mean, but people hold on to that. And
Josh: They do.
Damien: look, I I understand from a certain standpoint, but we it's just something that needs to be addressed and probably better articulated. Cause I I'm not even really hearing great conversations. So maybe this might be something I would like to focus on, because we've got people coming on that's gonna be talking about relationships, and maybe I might wanna harp on that afterwards. Because I'm not hearing much better from the male side all the time, right?
Josh: No. I I mean the elevated voices on both sides seem to be really immature and I think it's super, super painful because there have been studies done into how societies develop on how societies work together, how families are effectively built, how people work together appropriately to build real communities, real cooperatives that that that elevate their society. I'm like, We know we have answers. It's not that no answers exist. It is that we're not talking about most of these answers and a lot of these answers coming together in in real systems. Like people put real incentives in place for people to behave a certain way. I'm like, how how could that happen? It's like, well, first you need to have people who know the answers. I'm like, Well, we have the internet and a whole lot of human history to go back on. So
Damien: Ha ha ha.
Josh: we should be able to find some as some answers. We don't have to have it all figured out, but like some timeless principles exist. Probably shouldn't be randomly stealing. Probably shouldn't be randomly killing each other. Probably should actually find ways. To acknowledge people's strengths and like partner with them on toward the thing that they're good at to build up the the goal we want. That seems like a reasonable approach. It's worked for a lot of people. Let's work on that since we're all people. Whether we're male people or female people, people, people. Let's just work together to do those things that we say are are shared values. But anyway, I I don't hear a lot of those sp those specific words or those specific ideas being put forth like these were the things that worked. This is why we work together. This is why we used to have two two family incomes, like two or two anyway, the both parents worked. I I think yeah, thank
Damien: Parent household Okay.
Josh: you. Dual house income. I'm like, this is what the s foundation was built on and this is how people were able to coordinate that. I'm like, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We can have more people talk about that. So many people are still alive who actually lived through it. So I I I think I would love to hear more people who made it through the past deppression and have a very clear view of like this is how this worked when things got really bad and this is how we could make things a little bit better. And we go, look at that. Principles.
Damien: Yeah. But just to kind of touch on the question that I asked Kirana on the last one. What I did with she or what I like to see, or what do I think history has gotten wrong in a sense of but that's different in modern times. so the everything you just well, mo a lot of what you just said, I don't know that I totally agree that we have those answers. Because I don't know that I've ever seen a society that actually has done what I think is required to have this cohesive cooperative. I mean, I've seen role playing, traditional roles. And I've seen people work well in traditional role in traditional wor roles pretty well, you know. But I think that there's room for improvement from there, right? Now, to get rid of maturity and traditional roles together is just completely ridiculous to me, which that's that's what I feel like we're getting, right? No
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: traditional role and no elevation, no, enlightenment for from
Josh: Right.
Damien: a relationship standpoint. But The whole idea of like woman independence, to me, this is what they were grappling with in like, I don't know if it was feminism 2.0 whatever, second wave feminism and Betty
Josh: Right.
Damien: Friedan and and just the whole identifying the self and not finding yourself within just a family and just kinda like being a mother as a role or or a wife as a role. and and that To change your your paradigm in that way takes some time socially, social sociologically,
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: I guess I would say, or I think that's the word I'm looking for. Cause it's like this there's there's a whole bunch of ideas surrounding that biological reality that exists within the pocket of society even as throughout generations. but When we get to these ideas of of even like we people entertaining non monogamy, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: which for me I I'm not sure I I don't know exactly your position, but you know me, I'm not I'm not anti non monogamy. That's a weird way to say that. Not
Josh: Yeah, right.
Damien: against but because I've seen so many examples where people Play the role and just fuck up the whole time. Like they it
Josh: Right.
Damien: j it's just like, yeah, we married. But it's a lot of stuff behind closed doors on that thing. It's like, you got a kid across the street or you've you all a this is not y'all are just pretending to do the thing or not even y you you're just showing the thing, which I don't know what's going on behind the closed doors. And I think just that that pretending to do it is it it ruins people's minds on on the issue. Now there are some people, don't get me wrong, I think that they do execute it well, but I don't really think that they I'll put it to you like this. Their dedication is not always so much the dedication to each other as it is a dedication to an idea.
Josh: Yes, a hundred percent. And those are the ones that work. I think that's the tradition, that's the part that makes me excited about it is the fact that the traditionally there were there those traditional arranged marriages or at least those close knit communities were the ones who had the most success because they had a they were both committed to the idea. Committed to the idea of marriage was enough to say like this is what we are doing. And this is how we are doing it. And some people did it better than others. I mean, some people played in the Olympics. And some people were just like effing up on the track all the time. Didn't never made it, never made it around what round once. I'm like, all right. There is a continuum of people who are proficient or excellent at it versus those who are just miserable at it. And I think that's something that has to be said enough has to be said and needs to be acknowledged. When I hear people say, marriage is dead, everybody's just giving up on it. I'm like, People are bad at marriage, that's true. But not everyone is bad at marriage. There are people who are actively good at this and there are people who and those people are making real communities and growing and doing things and making it bet like they're making things better for them and their kids, which is cool. I wanna see more of that.
Damien: Right.
Josh: But I don't I don't hold everybody to the same standard, like, they're good just because they know about an idea and they said the words means that they're good now. Like, they have to live a whole lifetime of like excellence to prove that they're good at it. I don't think everyone's good just because they said said words. That's not that's not the case. That's not how that was not even the proposition. This was this was always a character focus.
Damien: Yeah, but I guess my focus is the quality of that idea. Because if you say people aren't doing marriage well. To me there's this there's an assumption of what that idea means. And my thing is I think that the idea of marriage in the Western context needs some refinement.
Josh: I mean it definitely needs to be better understood, meaning we need to return to the original meaning. I think there has been a significant drift, we'll say, from the original social contract to this governmental permit.
Damien: so when you say get back to what it means, I'm I'm I'm thinking like, well, I don't think it really grasped everything that it needed to be from the beginning. That's that's my thing. I like it's it's practical. It was
Josh: Right to go.
Damien: doable, it was prudent, is that the word? I just don't think that I don't think that the the idea, the way that it's Presented as a cultural conception Yeah, because they kind of like the idea of marriage is different in different places. I don't think that it it provides the space to get people where they need to be. Now that's just how I'm feeling about it. I just think that I don't know if I would say people are more developed or it's not really that. It's just that.
Josh: No.
Damien: When we ha there are questions that we have not answered with it.
Josh: So originally marriage had this clear comp clear value add where one family had a kid, another family had a kid, and their kids got together to unite these families and the girls' family would you know, pay dowry to this males family so we would actually have the resources to start the new family, build the house, and start the environment to say, okay, these are ways to connect the people we want in a real way and give them the resources we want to both further our values, further our community, make things real, make things more convenient. And the idea of marriage gave people a lot more t to hand to hold on to socially because it gave them social standing It gave them a way to make money, but also gave them a way to be a part of the community because they had a place to fit. And I think that was a great clear goal point institution. I'm like, all right, this has a function now. This is actually doing what it needs to do, we're moving in the right direction. And that was a great way when people had that commitment and stayed in that commitment that allowed people from that that kept people from Starting a bunch of random little families all around where their kids could intermingle and cause a bunch of you know, genetic issues down the down the line. So you had stronger societies when you had people who actively stayed within the bonds of ma marriage and kept sex there and did the things they needed to do because this way the people had the ability to make sure the gene pool stayed effective and c clean enough to where there wasn't so much intermixing. And that allowed those societies to outperform other other societies around. And so my God was great. That was the plan. That was the point. And then nowadays it is different. Everyone's like, mm, we don't have to do it that way. We can just kinda wing it and just go go around and do whatever. I'm like, there's a lot of things we can do differently. I mean, that's physically possible. But for a society, we really we the closer we can get cl back to a one man, one woman marriage to keep the family together, to keep this clarity and keep the genes from intermix in intermix intermingling, the better we we could we we could be. And I and I and I realize there are other ways to expand the gene pool. But I also just like, hey, specifically this was the way we were doing it. Let's at least do this and then we can do extra stuff later. But like I don't see I do not see people developing the character necessary to maintain a marriage long enough for them to have a family and keep things together, which bothers me so much in the sense of like, this is frustrating. How am I going to navigate it myself?
Damien: To me, you for your specific concern, I think you just have to find someone who believes in the same idea, right?
Josh: Yes.
Damien: But for because to me, I I can't immediately hear that and think and translate that to today. Like those people and those populations at that time, not even the same. Like we had to have industrialization before we can even blow. Like we've got all these people. And all this mobility and all of these choices is geography, I wouldn't say it's a was a problem before, but it's not something that was easily
Josh: Ha ha ha.
Damien: you know, easily navigated. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: Much harder before. Right. It was much, much harder before.
Damien: So so I don't I'm not so much worried about the gene pool is is as I think the ancient is someone who back in the days wo was worried about it. I but I would say to me, like, There are a lot of things that in a historical context that just was kinda accepted. And we've got to I do believe in like reimagining some things. Like just the whole idea of concept of women and how they interacted. It is I I have a s I wouldn't even say if it's a sympathy, but I do understand when they're like, yo, we didn't used to make be able to make money. Okay, we didn't used to be able to vote. Okay. but then there's some other aspects of it as like, hey, there are these social ideas that we felt oppressed by. It's not like somebody told us,
Josh: Right. There were some real limitations.
Damien: yeah, we had ex not like somebody forced us and said, Hey, you need to do this. It's just that we the idea was they they have a a so a relationship to the idea that just almost forces them to come compel themselves. Almost like an a man from a man f standpoint of yo, you need to be you you need to have some kind of virtue. You need to you need to be able to do something. but some of that's valid, right? Some of that's valid and some of it is invalid. And that's what I mean about refining and re-imagining, because without e eating the meat and leaving the bone, and continuing to do that process, you just start conflating a lot of this stuff and confusing it. And that's just what I mean about like I just With all the available options to people, with all of the choices and A relationship in my mind, especially a marriage, which to me, the concept of a marriage is a long term commitment with a a partner, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: now people say you might not need a a legal marriage anym a legal marriage anymore because the concept is kinda like messed up 'cause it's got that government aspect in it or whatever. But that commitment to me is is That bonding of it to to make it a long-term thing. It's something that you're not going to always be like we were talking to Kirana, it's like you're not happy all the time with it. That's not the goal to be infinitely happy. You
Josh: No. No.
Damien: know what I'm saying? But it's a good life, is a in the way that you're putting together something that you think is valuable and worth pursuing over the long term. But
Josh: There you go.
Damien: even with that, the things that you see people Doing today. Like if I'm a right now, I'm imagining like Kim Kardashian's mother, whatever her name is, and Bruce Jenner. When somebody wakes up and says, you know what? I kinda wanna go the other way. You know,
Josh: Right?
Damien: I'm not saying that I understand the idea. But the idea of a commitment to a person, you know that person, you have some understanding
Josh: Right.
Damien: of that person. And maybe that relationship changes. But to me, that's what what I mean about reimagining a relationship, because it may be that that person is going a different way. Does that mean that that relationship has to end? Does that can it take
Josh: Doesn't it doesn't necessarily.
Damien: on another form? You know, can it?
Josh: Right?
Damien: That's what that's the type of stuff that I'm thinking about because I think a lot of times when people take the traditional context and the historical context, they're like, we gotta this is over, we gotta end it, we gotta and I'm like, Well, it's a commitment to a person. Yeah. You know
Josh: Do we? Right? But that that is the the the traditional context is the fact that you are committed to this person regardless of the changes people go through. Because you get married to a person and that person continues to grow and change throughout people's lifetime. And the person you
Damien: Right
Josh: marry is not the person you're gonna stay married to. And I think that's the part in the sense of people do change and grow as people throughout their lifetime. And therefore the person you marry at twenty is not the same person you're talking to and having coffee with at 80. And so when people are just like, well, they changed and so we can't we can no longer be together. Or I fell out of love, we can no longer be together. I'm like, that is not the point. You're not here just to randomly get that honeymoon spark of happiness, joy, and feelings. Though those feelings are important and there are ways to make sure they happen more frequently than not. That's fine. But to just say,
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: I don't have it and therefore this whole relationship is is is over now. I'm like, that is not a foundation. You can't live that way for anything. Also, not a marriage
Damien: And and I underst and I get that. But what I would say to you is that When you're making those decisions at a young age, if you don't have a good conception of what you're getting into, like that's the whole goal of making a great conception of marriage. So a person who at a young age can look at that idea and say, or have a an idea of what they're getting themselves into. Because if you don't sharpen and d more clearly define that idea in a in a useful way,
Josh: Right.
Damien: they're gonna make a a a decision at a young age that's really untenable it in some in some ways. But if you
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: have a better idea of what it could be and what it is and it's like, okay, you can make a better decision. That's what I'm saying. That's all.
Josh: Okay. And I definitely think people should go in with their eyes open and should go in with a better decision. They don't they should make this choice based off better data. They should see what a marriage could be, see what marriage actually is, and say, Let's strive to be what we the the ideal. Let's strive to work toward getting better at the things that are gonna make us more successful than this. And I think that's something that parents could do for their kids too. They they model it so the kids can can actively imitate it, but they also say these are the expectations. We have for you. And if you want to be set up, you know, be part of the family, get the status, get the respect, get the general uplifting part. Like this is what we respect. These are the values we're working towards. Share these values, work toward these things, demonstrate these virtues, and we will be able to be excited about things that you do. We will actually be able to reward you for what you do. If you decide not to practice these virtues and start start going into vices and start actively causing societal harm by refusing our customs and doing the anti-customs, doing the things that tear down what we're building, then you're going to get different consequences. We're not gonna reward you. We are gonna disrespect you. We may have to take actual you know, action against you depending how criminal your your behavior is. You can you're free to have your own thoughts and feelings, but when you actively start attacking the things we're building, we can't treat that as just another difference of opinion. It's like no, no, you're you're you're causing harm.
Damien: I mean, look, I agree with you. I agree with with you to a certain extent, Josh, but let me just and then I know it's getting late but let me just try to communicate how I I see this thing. I don't know that you and I came up in a different environment. Maybe it's very similar, right? And I don't think it's anything necessarily wrong with what you're saying. But what I'm saying is that if I'm being objective and I'm looking at society in America today, those ideas existed and people are going another way. They're going another way. So when you already had an existing idea that you thought worked, and people go another way, that idea in the way that it existed. Can't just be put back in. You just can't put it back. Something different has to happen with that idea. You can't just say, hey, let's let's just bring it back. If if it worked like that from the beginning, people wouldn't have gone away from it. You you gotta
Josh: That's not how it works though.
Damien: that's that's I mean, that's that's how I look at it. I I always think
Josh: Let's see.
Damien: you've gotta refine that idea, you've got to present it and you have to have learned something. That made people go a different way. So, hey, this was an idea. I thought it was good, but people didn't. It's just like when you I had a store, I had an idea, I thought it was good, people didn't buy it. I need to do something, something I'm not doing, something we're not getting right about this product that we need to to do better. And that's how, that's how I think about it. You know, because if if it was This whole go back thing. I hate when people do the go back thing. We gotta go
Josh: Right.
Damien: back to the if it was good, then why did people leave it? And I'm not saying that they left it for good reasons.
Josh: Right? But I don't think people left it. I don't think people left it. Like In a store, if you have a product and you have people using the product, you're like, this is great. When they stop using the product, like, why why aren't people using the product? This is crazy. But people didn't leave stores. They just stopped
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: using the product. And so, like, what so marriage as an institution, I think, as the store, like it's just fine. People are still getting married all the time. They still engender to be married. Most people want to be married. Marriage is not a pr not the problem. But the way we have framed it, the way we have thought about it, the way we've tried to do it, as treating it like a form of elevated dating, is a terrible plan and has not worked out great for a lot of people. And I'm like, yeah, you probably should never do that. That's not what was offered, not not not what was advertised by the people who originated. But you know, other people did advertise it that way. Like, we gotta give people freedom. They can just do whatever now. I'm like, I don't think we should let them make we should not let them repeat the mistakes of the past. We should probably tell them about those mistakes. beforehand so they don't do that same thing again. I don't think we're doing a whole lot of that. And that's been hard for people. Anyway, I think there's a lot of things that could be fixed about the way we present it, how we talk about things, and about the way we organize society to receive the benefits of a solid, stable, committed relationship, which I don't see happening. I don't see people actively praising people doing virtuous things, especially when it comes to marriage.
Damien: Because I just because to me When you're solving a problem, it does not mean the environments holds holds stable all of the time. Like that's why I like when I'm looking at it in historical context, when you're like people are doing something different and that this elevated dating thing. But I'm like, well, but to me, because these choices, there's so many more choices to be had that didn't exist before. So How does the old concept work with the Multiple choices, not to say that
Josh: Because there are choices. I think that is the that is that is the point. I think that is the all right, that's what I'm trying to get at, I guess, is the Because we have exposure to more and more ideas, it is more important now for us to have a clearer standard of what ideas. make the cut as far as what we give our attention to. And so
Damien: Okay.
Josh: because we have more and more choices of partners, it matters more now for us to say, what is the reason we would even get together? What qualifies as a person who's worth committing to? And what would I do to commit to it? Like what is the reason to stay committed in this case? And I think there is a real reason. And I don't think people are looking at things long term.
Damien: Well, I I I don't disagree with you on that. What I'm less I'm less misaligned with you on the reason abstract aspect of it and more misaligned on the practical day to day aspect of it. That's what I'm saying because long term commitments, especially to people in my opinion, is a good thing. Because you that's a long-term commitment to something that's complex. It it says something about you in a way. but what does that look like in the day-to-day is more well, because what you start doing is that's when the roles come into play. I take he takes out the trash, I cook the food. He goes out and does work, I stay home. And then these are traditional roles. But that's what I'm saying, like that's where the imagination has to come in and into in my mind.
Josh: Yes, this I agree with that. Every role should be actively talked about, discussed, and decided by that by that couple. That should they shouldn't just
Damien: Sure.
Josh: accept the traditional roles and customs wholesale. I'm like that's unnecessary. If you and your partner want to discuss like hey, do you wanna do the yard and I'll do the dishes this week? Or if they're do you like the housework better? If the man likes the housework better, the woman likes the outside work better, and they want to divide things that way, great. It is a different role than the tradition. But the marriage is still the box. The the way they navigate it different. There you go.
Damien: But you gotta present that. But you have but the reason why I'm saying you gotta present it is because you gotta think this idea that's gonna touch millions, if not billions of people. many of those people need the simple version. What is this? What
Josh: Hmm. Great.
Damien: do these people do? They may not be able to get to the whole abstract piece of it. They need to know what. do we do every day? How does this work? And that's that's
Josh: Yes. How does this work?
Damien: the part that I'm trying to think about. Like, if it has to be like yeah, people can choose. Yeah, you can do the dishes, I can do this. That's cool, but I just I'm like, what is leading us to lying? what is leading
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: to people having hidden lives in relationships?
Josh: Right?
Damien: What is leading to people killing their partners instead of being divorced?
Josh: Right.
Damien: Something else is there that has to be answered and it's not and it can't be answered within like who's and I'm I know I'm I'm bringing up that aspect like it's not about who did the dishes and who took out the trash. It's about what do we do in a relationship where someone has grown in a way that I didn't expect.
Josh: Mm.
Damien: What what do I do about that? What if I am not on board with that growth? What if that's
Josh: Right.
Damien: I'm not on board with the phase that they're in? What what do we do with that? And
Josh: Yes.
Damien: that's the type of stuff that I'm thinking of.
Josh: Right. And I definitely think there's room for having that real conversation to say, like, when people change in ways that we don't like, since we committed to that person, how do we navigate this change? How do we actively live and sit with this discomfort long enough to start saying this person is trying to accomplish some goal? They have some actual reason for their behavior. What is that reason? Is there a way to help them navigate it? How can I listen to them? How can I understand where they're coming from? Make them feel seen, actually empathize from what they're going through, and then say, is there a way to get your needs met that actively aligns with any of the things that we are doing? Is there a way I can can support you in way to do that? And I think that is the discussion that doesn't happen enough.
Damien: Man, I agree, man. I agree with everything you said. But what I say is that from an individual standpoint, that takes an extraordinary person.
Josh: Yes.
Damien: From a collective standpoint, it's gonna take an extraordinary person to present the idea. But once you create that space to where what you just said is normal and what to to the to put it to the point where c society perceives that as normal. That's what I'm talking about because that that's the p that's the world creator. What you can get that idea that it's a I'm a meme or whatever, because that's what's like, it's the possible instead of that's the extraordinary. Right. That's all.
Josh: Yeah. And it's something to see.
Damien: So
Josh: So it's worth it's worth coming up with real solutions. It's worth looking at what solutions other people have and then finding pe ways to help people grow enough to be able to do that at earlier and earlier times. I'm like this is what parents do.
Damien: Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's what it's all about, man. Like, I could do certain things in my life today that
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: come easy to me. But then in my mind, I'm like, but I'm older. You know what I'm saying? So it it's cool to me, but I had to live a long time to get there to figure it out. Wouldn't it be cool
Josh: Yes.
Damien: to know all and do all this stuff when I was younger?
Josh: Yes. Yes. Ugh I can't tell you how much if I could go back in time and tell myself, like, this is the stuff you need to read these things.
Damien: Ha ha.
Josh: This is the framework you need to think about. This is the framework you need to know to think about how to look at this stage of life. This is what school is for. This is what work is for. This is what business is. This is what people
Damien: Mm.
Josh: are doing. This is this is your strength. This is your weakness. These are the questions you need to ask and confirm this for yourself. Anyway, there are so many things to do differently. I was talking to my dad the other day and he was like, my grandkids, they're just they're going to school now and it's you know, and they're gonna have to learn how to socialize. I'm like, Did you prepare them to so to be social? Did you try? You did not try with me, but with them. Was there any attempt made just to give them a general idea of how to be a normal human being? That they can't wander around expecting everyone to give them all the attention all the time, that sometimes they're gonna need to be quiet and so someone else can speak and someone else can go
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: first. You know, that would did we have these discussions in in detail with them? Did they practice any of these skills at home before you just sent them off into the world and were like, good luck? Be a good person like what does that mean? They're they're they're five. Anyway, I was just like I I mean it really is. It's I really see the differences in types of people and personalities when it comes to how people approach problem solving. Some people really are just
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: like just throw them in there and they'll just see it and then they'll then they'll figure it out. I don't think they will. If it doesn't if they have no framework to put it.
Damien: Right. Guidance.
Josh: It's gonna be it's asking them a lot to make their own framework to think in.
Damien: Yeah. what does Peterson say? It's like, yo, it's not what not to do, it's like what to do a little bit. It's give somebody
Josh: Yeah, you
Damien: you gotta give somebody some guidance because it's you don't
Josh: Yes.
Damien: even know the questions to ask sometimes. So that's the part.
Josh: Thank you. Discipline is not just punishment. It's actual correct guidance. Show them the way.
Damien: Yeah. Yeah man.
Josh: I mean it definitely needs to be better understood, meaning we need to return to the original
Damien: Meaning. When you say get back to what it means, I don't think it really grasped everything that it needed to be from the beginning. What do we do in a relationship where someone has grown in a way that I didn't expect? What if I am not on board with that growth?
Josh: Yeah. What kind of things you got into this week? Anything cool you saw?
Damien: I wouldn't say anything cool. but today actually I was listening to Hassan on the Breakfast
Josh: Piker, yeah.
Damien: Club. Hassan Piker, yeah. On the Breakfast
Josh: Nice.
Damien: Club. It's just nonsense. It's not
Josh: Ha ha ha.
Damien: like everybody and I looking, and I'm a comment watcher, so I'm just looking at the comments and I'm thinking like, I'm looking like and that what I see is, he's so intelligent. the America doesn't want you to know this. And what it brings me around to is if I look at it in three simple s simple simple areas, I see like the the radicals, right? And this is kinda like the some of the videos I bring up, the radicals, the ones we kinda went over before, and even people like Hussan Piker, it's kinda like a DSA. And for me, I'm I like I like their questions. I like the fact that they're questioning things, right? But then
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: I also I never wanted to be misconstrued that like because I'm presenting or you might hear me say something that's rooted in reason or rationality or or fighting for the basic principles in the country. I don't want people to to misconstrue that to say that that means I'm like caping for what's going on right now. You know what
Josh: Right.
Damien: I mean? 'Cause because it's not what I'm cap you may think that what's going on here is rational and ra and reasonable and and all of these things. But no, that's not what I want. That's not that's not the message that I'm trying to provide at all.
Josh: Exactly.
Damien: but at the same time, like when people when they ask these dumb questions or s have these dumb points, I'm like, nobody really should pay attention. I don't know. I guess I would say nobody should really pay attention to it. Cause that when I'm listening to the Hassan Piker interview, one of his points is like man, th look at how America treats Cuba. you know, it's just like this thing that they just wanna keep penalizing them over and over and over again 'cause it makes them feel good to be like the big bully or something that I and I'm paraphrasing, it's not exactly what he's saying, but he's just like
Josh: That's that is a that that is that is a jest.
Damien: Right. this is back to this thing about you're not really distinguishing between good and bad. Because I'm I'm pretty sure if you were to ask the Cubans who are here, they would tell you they really didn't like what they were going through. You know what I'm saying? And it's not just,
Josh: Right.
Damien: it's all cool now. Why why is America just tripping? Why why is there an embargo? Right. So it's but stuff like
Josh: Right? Why aren't they being so mean? Why ar why aren't they just going out with kindness? Why aren't they trying to kill with kindness? It's like No. No.
Damien: that. He's just like, man, China is doing business with the rest of the world. Why are we not doing business with China the way that they do business with the rest of the world? And this is the p that's the what got me to the point of I can't necessarily speak for Trump and why they don't do business with China like that. But There are some not good things. There are some reasons that you may not do business with countries, you
Josh: Right.
Damien: know. And but he when you just have the sympathetic, basically everything other than America is the other, right? And so it's just the other thing. Whatever the other thing is, and regard just if regardless of good or bad, why don't why aren't we just doing the other thing? This is like the whole like the metric conversation. Everybody else is on the metric system. Why don't we just get on the metric system? I mean, I guess it's a question, but
Josh: Right. We can we can debate pros and cons. There's nothing nothing wrong with that. But we we are on this system for you know, tradition and some other reasons. So this is where we at this is where we are.
Damien: Right. So is it but my my default position isn't like everybody else is doing it or I don't know it.
Josh: Right. Consensus doesn't make it right. That's not that's not our s that's not our standard.
Damien: Right, consensus doesn't make it right. And I just can't I g I I gotta remember not to get frustrated with people like him because in my mind, like I said, they don't really matter. The radicals don't matter as as much. But the issue with me is that the mainstream is my focus. Because the mainstream once the mainstream gets so ridiculous, they can't it becomes a age of skepticism.
Josh: Right.
Damien: And then One of things that Piker was saying in the interview is that well people have started to listen to these ideas more. And see to me that's a mainstream because it was ridiculous. It was always ridiculous, but people are now listening because they everything
Josh: It was always ridiculous.
Damien: is ridiculous. So what's one ridiculous thing from the other ridiculous thing?
Josh: Right? How's this how's this different? How's this worse? How is that a problem? It's like, because it was always a problem. It was always a problem before. That's why the people who practiced it died. It was not good. It was not good. That was
Damien: Not good at all.
Josh: that was a sign that the thing that they were doing wasn't beneficial. It's like, well, people are talking about it more now. Maybe we just need to do it differently. Like I mean, there's only so many ways to do the wrong thing. wrong.
Damien: And not die.
Josh: Right, and not die. We're trying to if our goal is life that we probably shouldn't pursue the thing that led to death in the past and in the present. Seems like a bad choice for the future. If you want there to be a future. Anyway.
Damien: Yeah. So but I think like if you don't answer the questions, then you really are just pushing the status quo. Which I'm not tr I'm not trying to push the status quo. That's not what I'm pushing for at all. So
Josh: Not alone. I don't want anyone to walk around thoughtless just following whatever traditions we just happen to be handed and just pick picking up whatever rule it is and just following this blindly and like, no, no. We need people who are actively paying attention, who can adapt to life as it changes. The only thing that separates this moment from the next moment from the next moment is the change. Well, I need you to pay attention to the changes, but I also need you to process the changes with data and say like, what is this data telling me? Not what I feel about it, not do I like it. What is it telling me? So I can actively use that data to make a conclusion to say what can we do to make sure that we have what we need, that we get our foundation together, and that we have enough reserve to actively move in the right direction to build an asset? Like how can we grow? What what does growth look like? I want to see more of those questions being thought through and answered. And that's not what I hear a lot, to be fair.
Damien: So yes, but you kind of touching on a point that I feel like I've come to agree with that I don't know that everybody else sees it the same way that I do. Because I just look at it like there mainstream status quo society, the proportion is just gonna be like that. The proportion
Josh: Yes.
Damien: of the mainstream of people who are kinda aware of things but not too deep into things. That's gonna be like that. And I'm not trying to, I don't think that it's helpful to kind of like beat them over the head like, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do that.
Josh: Ha ha ha.
Damien: Cause I think a lot of times they do well enough, right? They they do well enough for
Josh: Yes.
Damien: what's what's what the the the general conception of things are, like the collective idea is, right? But it's on the leaders, it's on the people that lead to have those conversations. to to stretch society. And it's not
Josh: It's also people who are in the limelight, like the people who are the most popular who are get the most public attention. I'm like, hey, if you're gonna s come over here and say you have an idea and I want your idea to be based on fact, I want you to ha want your claims to have evidence behind them. If you're going to come out here, I I'm not sure if you associate everyone with a platform as as a leader, but I'm I when people with a platform say crazy things or say things that are irrational, I I want to see more accountability where Clarity can happen. Because they're allowed to have their opinions, and I think that's fine. I just think I find it unhelpful, repulsive, when people who have a platform get on on their on their on their soapbox and say crazy things that could actively harm people. I'm like, this is this is going to lead toward toward problems.
Damien: Yeah, I mean platforms are so commonplace. I mean platform the word platform is funny to me anyway. It's like
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: anybody that just got has a camera can turn on their their camera and just be on a platform. So
Josh: Right. It's just the popularity piece that I'm just like, hey, once you once you ga gain a certain amount of market share, it you have a I wouldn't call it a even a responsibility, but but they do. But out you have a You have a significant amount of influence and I would like to see that influence held accountable. I want to see I want to see that that level of influence effectively communicate things that are going to be mutually beneficial. And that's to I s that's to me I'm like, this is a bare minimum. Could we please just say things that you found helpful? I I'll just take a basic bare minimum reporting. Just say, I like this thing because it helped me. I'm like, that'd be great. Share your solutions, please.
Damien: Yeah, but that's where for me I've probably kind of gotten just used to like the colors, the spectrum of society. Because I
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: I don't really expect I expect the people who are supposed to play their part to play their parts. Just like if I'm listening to Hassan Piker, like I don't think he shouldn't be here saying that. I'm saying that, okay, where's the counter argument? Where's the where's the person who is saying that this is ridiculous? And that's when I'm like, Well well, I'll say it's ridiculous. You know what I'm saying? You know.
Josh: Exactly. If nothing else we could say, that doesn't exist here because it didn't work. And that doesn't exist here because we don't do that here, and we're just different. That's there are some differences that we just have. That's fine. Nothing moral, not right or wrong about it. It's just how we develop.
Damien: Well, some of it is moral though. Some it does have more foundations. But and to me that's the whole point of it, right? But
Josh: That's the part you really have to focus in on.
Damien: Yeah, but that but that also so like like I don't that's what I'm saying. That's that's why I don't really get mad at radicals. I just I get confused because they say a lot of things that don't make sense. But
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: then if you think about it in a in a in a lane like where you understand, just like personality type helped me understand that they are TE driven people. There are people who are worried who are tuned into to the collective conceptual consensus ideas, right? And they live through that. If the people don't say this, then they're not they're not going to they may even have a disagreement, but they would repress that disagreement within themselves to conform to what the consensus is is really talking about for the most part. and but then understanding that. Just that type of orientation, like going through that book writing process kind of helped me. Well, it's not just that, even not even having a personality type group, just to see how all of these personalities mesh together and people might bring, you know, all different kinds of people bring different points up. And then there are things that at some point in time, like I I had this interview like last last week. The guy, he was heavy Christ heavily Christian dude. And I don't think he understood my argument from my book in the beginning that I'm not arguing to control people. I don't I'm not going out there and saying, Hey, everybody should be more thoughtful. Everybody should be doing this. Everybody should be thinking more. I'm saying that The the principles that govern the land, the leadership, the things that we de develop our ideas behind need to be rooted in this ideology or mentality right here. That doesn't really have anything to do with the people.
Josh: Right. And it's not a universal standard. It's a standard we're holding our leaders to, which makes sense.
Damien: Yeah. I mean even the country as well too though. It's like the standard is like a threshold, right? To me. It's it's it's just a basic, right? It's the it's a outline or what they call a stroke in in design. Whereas though the fill is the society, it's the colors, it's the variety. It's like, yeah yeah. Have all the fun you want, but you can't we gotta have some boundaries here. And these are the
Josh: Gotta have some boundary.
Damien: boundaries. That's all it is. and also people who some people when they get too strict with the boundaries, that's not a good thing. That's I'm not for that because it's like yo, you're tightening you tightening the reins on society just because you want to feel like you're in control of things when that's not the proper way.
Josh: Or may maybe you just want people to be more in line with what you think should happen in life. In sense of like there are people who tighten the boundaries to a point that limits everybody by their own limitations. And I think that's something that is that's where that's where I'm like, this is this is too much now. You want people to be just like you, to accept your exact traditions and customs and you know, there are certain ways you can talk about this, like, hey, generally we shouldn't We shouldn't we shouldn't murder, we shouldn't steal, we shouldn't take people's property or life or their liberty. It's like, okay. That's a that's a that's a big enough boundary for us to operate in. Cool. Like also you have to eat tacos on Tuesdays and you have to be specifically wearing
Damien: Mm.
Josh: blue at this particular time, otherwise we're gonna, you know, punish you. It's like, okay, now we're doing things you do. That's too much. Too much. Bringing it need you to need you to rein it rain it back in and focus in on these broad strokes again.
Damien: Yeah. But I mean I think I don't think that you said anything different than I was saying, right? Because it's I think a lot of I think the purpose behind an idea a thinking like that is to control the world. Even if it's subconscious. Well
Josh: I don't know if it is the control. Some people don't care about control more than they want comfort. It's like, hey, the
Damien: But that's what I'm saying. When you can control the environment, that's what gives you the comfort. That's what I mean. So because
Josh: Yes. Yes.
Damien: now it's familiar to you or it's not unexpected. It's like, okay, okay, now I can be comfortable because things are happening the way that I want them to happen, but you're dealing with people.
Josh: Mm mm. Right. Which can't happen that way because everybody's different. But yeah, some people look at people using control as them exercising power in a form of abuse as as as if they are maliciously going out of their way to say, like, I want to control other people so that I feel stronger than them and so that I I can punish people I want to punish. I'm like, but that's not everyone's motivation. Some people aren't interested in how bad you feel. Some people are interested in actively, you know. Making themselves feel better. They actually don't think about you at all. Hmm.
Damien: That's true. But what you just explained was like one side of the coin, right? That's the sadistic side of the coin. But there's a masochistic.
Josh: all upset some people some people associate all forms of power and all forms of control with that sadistic side. And I'm like, that
Damien: Sad yeah, the sadistic side.
Josh: actually is not broad enough category. There are actually other motivations human beings have. They're just doing this 'cause they're
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: mean. I mean, they may also be mean. I'm not gonna rule that out, but let's not start there. Let's not attribute to ma malice, which you know, can easily be attributed to not just incompetence, but just complete and utter indifference. They don't care about you. They don't even know you yet. How could they possibly hate you?
Damien: That's true. Yeah. I pulled up this little video, if you wanna just check it out real quick. So yeah, I don't exactly remember what I got from this, but for whatever reason I saved it. So check it out.
FB Girl: this is so interesting. The conversation about the biggest birds are married women. I was such a bird. Such a bird. Let me tell y'all something. Christianity, on top of being married, had my mind so fucked up, y'all. I was such a fucking bird. And I'm gonna say this. And I was I was a wife that was that had the things. My husband bought me a car. I got real anniversary gifts, tennis bracelet, gold, gold, necklaces, diamond earrings, He would gift me things. I when Rihanna came out with her with the creepers and like Rihanna when she first started doing like Rihanna and the Puma. I my husband used to buy me so much stuff. He used to gift me so much stuff. He used to want me to work out. We went we worked out together, went to the gym together. All type of shit. Like we was we was a we was married. And we was the married couple that had everybody else around us wanting to get married. On the outside looking in, beautiful couple. My my husband was very attractive and I'm very attractive and we had a really beautiful daughter. but I was such a bird. Like when I tell y'all I used to walk around we when I used to get drunk and we used to go out with our friends. I used to be talking about how these bitches would take your husband. Whole time I knew my husband was cheating. I used to like I I just used to defend him at the drop of every dime because it was my husband over everybody. I was a real pick me at the time and you literally have to be at that time you it was almost like if you were married, you were a pick me. And I'm so sorry to the married women for saying this, but y'all know exactly what I'm talking about. Now there has been a spiritual awakening and now everybody is understanding that you can still have two. You can keep your mind, keep your autonomy, and also still have a man. But that man also has to be a different breed. You know what I mean? And it would be great if you could unpack your religion together and understand that that is some man-made bullshit that we were all brought up and taught. Like that was a script that was handed to us. And I realized that. I recognized that extremely fast when I left him. but I still coupled after leaving him. So I've grown up so much now, but immediately after leaving him, I got into another relationship. And then after I broke up with that guy, I got into another relationship. So I have had three serious relationships in my life. And after breaking up with my last boyfriend, I've been single this whole time. Now we've been in and out of each other's lives the entire time. I'm not finna lie about that. We have that's probably my longest running relationship because every year after we broke up, we have found our way back to each other. That's neither here nor there, but I'm I still remain single. I still remain single. I'm single to this day. But yes, I'm just here to agree that back when I was married, I was the biggest fucking bird and the biggest pick me. And those are facts. All of the things that the girls are saying right now be facts.
Damien: So that's interesting and I even saved that now that I think about it. I c I guess the the thing that stuck out to me for for real about the Commentary is just I'm trying to figure out what people are getting. Like, like when people get this Eureka moment, I'm like. What was realized? I'm listening to what her see what she's saying. I'm like,
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: what did she realize? She's like, yeah, you can have you and you can have the relationship too. But you don't have a relationship anymore. And
Josh: Nope.
Damien: how do we know that that's working? Like This is one of the things that make me more sad well, it's not sad.
Josh: Me sad. man.
Damien: Like Be because I just don't when I hear all of when I hear the comment I I see to me Immature men that can't deal with mature women. Immature women who can't deal with mature men. Immature women and immature women men getting together.
Josh: There it is.
Damien: I don't see a lot of mature and mature tick well, I do. I do see some. But
Josh: You look.
Damien: But it's just like the things that are being learned, people were saying, like, well, these today things are different and here's how they work. But when they explain it, Work is like a subjective word somehow. It's not actually working working. It's like
Josh: their their goals have shifted and so that now it's all now it's now they have a different perspective to where they're like, ideally this could happen. I'm like, but it's not happening for you specifically in this case. Well yes, but it could
Damien: Right.
Josh: though. It could have happened and maybe it sort of kinda did happen, you know, a few a few relationships ago. I'm like, I mean maybe, maybe. And I'm I there's so much to pick apart here, but it's just The the key parts I think are are the helpful parts where she's like, You can be a person. You can have an identity, you can have beliefs, you can look at things rationally. You're allowed to actively analyze your life, look at what's working, and make decisions as a human being. I'm like, Yes, you have that agency. It's like you don't have to just she's she realized that she didn't have to just sacrifice herself, her identity, her values, just so she could find a man and be in a relationship. And I'm I'm happy she realized that part. I'm like, great, excellent. But she couldn't. At least well, anyway, those are the pros. I thought that those pros pros are good. I think it's sad that the cons came out where she was just like, Well, everything I've been taught. I found out there were some problems with some of it, so I rejected all of it, and now I'm living over here. I'm like, okay, okay, that's something. That's that may not have been necessary. And also, my man
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: wanted things to stay the same and not change. I'm like, I mean, Big Just super hard to grow together. It's super hard for people to immediately change. I mean,
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: are are there things he was willing to work with you on to change it over time? Is was that even a possibility? I mean for her her case, he was actively not in the in the in the relationship. That that is different. So if he's actively cheating and running around and not doing anything, if he's not gonna honor your vow vows and actually actually commit to you and do things, then you know There is a case to be made, but we don't need to do this together. I'm like, alright, alright, alright. Unless that's that is a reasonable reason to go. But either way, all I'm saying is it's unless people spend a lot of time thinking about this, what I and what a lot of people would get from this just on the surface, it's just like, being married is a problem, I don't have to do that. Being with a man
Damien: Right, yeah.
Josh: being supportive of a man and being open to supporting him and defending him whenever he's what what attacked is is a problem and I don't have to do it now. I'm like, that is that is not the lesson. But I hear you. She did she she did mention that a lot. So
Damien: Yeah, man. I mean that that's the message that I'm hearing a lot of is
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: And but I think what the problem is is that for me is is it's that this female revolution, twenty twenty revolution or whatever we talking about,
Josh: give us.
Damien: it just reminds me of immature men. That that's what it really what it reminds me of.
Josh: Yes. This is immaturity, put on a different display. Sometimes men do it, sometimes women do it. Everybody's like, Look at me, I could be in charge. It's all about me. It's not about you. And if you want me to even do anything for you, you're the problem. Hm well wh when d when did this working together part happen? Because it sounds a lot like we're not working together at all and if I'm not actively doing what you want, then I'm the problem. And that seems like not a team. Seems really just like slavery. But okay, I hear what you're saying.
Damien: That's what I mean. Like There is wow a nobility in a a true conception of cooperation. Right? And cooperation, I think what people think cooperation is, is okay, I'll just give up, you do what you want. Or
Josh: Right.
Damien: you go, or you give up and I'll do what you or. you give up and you do what I want. That's not cooperation. You know.
Josh: At all at all. Concession is not compromise. Concession isn't interdependence. This is not the same at all. You lying down on
Damien: Good.
Josh: the ground and just giving up is not the same as you actually holding my hand and helping me overcome this obstacle together.
Damien: Yeah, working together because that's what creates the animosity because to me when a person if a person has no ability to cooperate, when you are like, Well, no, let's work together and this is what I think, they're like, You just you just want me to do what you want me to do. And I think that there's
Josh: Right.
Damien: some issues with there are some biological, sociological tendencies that are that really exacerbate this relationship piece. But if you never develop that ability to work with someone, you're just a bad partner.
Josh: You're a bad partner. There's no reason to keep doing this. You created a division and an obstacle now. And that's the part that needs to be said more clearly. When they're like, they didn't I don't want to be a pick me. Like you aren't. At this point, you're not a pick me for anyone, male or female. No one wants to pick
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: you. You are not a good partner.
Damien: Well, but see here's the thing. Here's the here's the misconception though. Women do this a lot, and I think maybe men do this too, but I don't really pay attention.
Josh: Immature people do this.
Damien: Just because people want to have sex with you does not mean that they want to pick you. They want to pick you for now. That's what they want you for. That's not,
Josh: Yeah right. Mm.
Damien: they don't want to consistently be have you be a part of their lives. They want you in and out.
Josh: Right. Right. They don't want you. They want the things you bring them and the feelings you cause them when they when they engage in intercourse. It's it's
Damien: Right.
Josh: a very and that's there's nothing wrong with pleasure, but when you make it the entire basis of a relationship, it's just an exchange.
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: And it's certainly not a commitment. I think that is the part that people get real confused as they look at interest as commitment. I'm like, that is not the same. They are not offering you commitment actually. This person is offering you attention, not not committing you to
Damien: Exactly.
Josh: rest for r for the rest of their lives or your life.
Damien: Exactly. So yeah. I know as a man, like I'm going for focus on the the woman part a lot more than some other people may, but that's because that's been my experience and that's what I've seen. Like just not the inability to cooperate, to in the inability to be an individual in a relationship, to sit to even push back when it's time to push back. Because when you're not rational, it's hard to it's you're not doing a thing together for a reason. You're doing, you're either doing the thing because they said so Or you're doing the thing because he's he said so. But there's not it's not necessarily, no, let's do this thing because this makes the the most sense for both of us. Most people I don't from my experience, most people are not getting there. It's just more of the I support, I support her. You we we're basically pandering to feelings most of the time.
Josh: There you go. That is the most common way to do it because it's where a lot of people start. And to be fair, you know, human beings, that's where we feelings are the most e the most easily accessible value judgments we have. And so when it comes to those things, it's super hard to evaluate those feelings and say, what are these really what are these values based on? Are there ways to achieve these values that don't end up harming us in the short or long term? Maybe we can talk about methods and have two people Focus on that on that third thing and say like maybe that maybe the third thing is in our our objective we can move toward. But yeah, the having that having that perspective requires a level of development that most people don't bother with or and and certain it is certainly not pushed forward as the ideal way to be. Like it's not looked at as a virtue in our current society, which is just very sad.
Damien: No, not It's pushed against from the s standpoint of the third thing. Like I remember hearing Trevor Noah one time talk about men always have to have the third thing when they're dealing with each other. It's like it just can't be we're hanging out, you and I. It's what's
Josh: Right.
Damien: that other thing that we're doing together? And I don't go direct
Josh: Goal directed relationships and actions.
Damien: the relationships. But s but see the thing is, like to me, that's what I that aspect just even pointing that out as like a feminine thing that he's pointing out. I was like, no, I just want
Josh: Ha ha
Damien: to mess into somebody else's to something else. And I don't, I'm not really into that. Like, and I and I'm not I'm not even open to this commentary about like, well, something wrong with you if you're not into into all of these highly f what I would call feminine traits. Like, I'm just I'm not in I'm not into it. You know?
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: But it's always made to be like something wrong with you. Like you all just want
Josh: Right.
Damien: you're like weak or whatever the some kind of derogatory term that that's gonna be brought up, you know, that you're not into the feminine thing. when men are having conversations like this it's not a metrosexual conversation, but this this the when they're having conversations with women on platforms or having these conversations on shows or something like that, it's something
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: that's lost in these conversations to me. Because Like, all right, I I don't know if you even remember, like the the the clip that I released earlier today, there's a guy and he's questioning the girl L. And he's like, Well, you think that these guys are supposed to fight? 'Cause he's basically giving her critique and then he's trying to figure out, Well, what do you think that they're supposed to do? so basically he's like, yo, what is the solution? This is you had the trans lady, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: His question is really, what is the solution? And this is my problem with it's not just women, but my problem with anybody that's taking this track. There is no solution. They just want to give you a consistent critique and explanation.
Josh: Right. She is not being solution minded. It's not a goal directed conversation. Her
Damien: No.
Josh: point is she wants to get her point. I don't like this guy. I don't like it. I don't like things like this. I don't like things that I associate with this. Like, well
Damien: Right.
Josh: how's that gonna solve the problem? No, I don't I'm not talking about Said it out loud. Right? Maybe we d maybe there is no resolution.
Damien: I'm not even intent. She said it out. She said it verbatim. She was like, I didn't give my resolution. And it's like
Josh: Maybe we maybe Even there's no reason to resolve the like okay, okay, we're not even having a conversation anymore. She is just expressing a a feeling she has.
Damien: Right. And and that's what I mean about men having these conversations with women. Because to me, the the male tendency is to be like, well, what do we do about these things? but there's also like this I don't know what it's like, a conceding. It's it's an energy where you don't wanna battle with the woman too much. And so you just like
Josh: Right. I mean but it's not it's not helpful in any partnership for one party to say if unless you come to my side we can't even have a conversation. It's like you know what? You seem like you're not even ready to have any real conversation where you where you can contribute to this point. You are not in the problem solving mode, you're in the empathy and I wanna be heard mode, which is a valid portion, like you are human. We all want to be seen. We all want to be heard,
Damien: Yeah, yeah.
Josh: and we can do that. It's just not what this conversation is for. Like you if you show up to the brainstorming meeting and you only want to say bad things exist, I'm like, that's actually not what the meeting is for. Now we can have a separate meeting even before this meeting, so you can get all your stuff together. But technically, that's what you should do by yourself or with somebody else who whose job
Damien: Right.
Josh: that is before you get to the brainstorming meeting. Because the brainstorm meeting is the time we're actually trying to present new ideas about how we're going to build on something. But yes, either way. Those are different goals.
Damien: But everything star sorry, sorry.
Josh: That's it.
Damien: No, everything turns into a brainstorm. This is my point. Everything turns into a brainstorming meeting because the guys are in there like, well, well, what about that solution though? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know, and it's right.
Josh: Right. They're all catching strings from all the people who are like, You didn't hear me though. You didn't what about the what about the my perspective?
Damien: Right. I think it just needs to be recognized. Like because I think that these people trying to carry out these conversations, like, everyone should be able to say what they need to say here, but then I'm I'm saying like, well, the conversation overall is weakened because we're not getting anything but that. We're not getting anything but I feel like I do or don't like this thing. That's end of conversation.
Josh: Yes, everybody should be
Damien: And then that's it.
Josh: heard as long as it's talking about something that is relevant to the conversation. And that is the part that is not happening, is that there is not a clear boundary. Like, we are going to now discuss this topic in view of since these things happened, what could be done about them in a way that is going to be edifying, causing f toward f going to be more tort flourishing or at least goal directed. I if you if that was the premise of the conversation and then somebody gets in their feelings and they're just like, I don't like this, and this person's a bad person and I don't like this system. You know, hey, hey, hey, that's true. And that's cool that you have this and I hear you. But we are
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: trying to focus here on like this conversation is expressly in t our express intent is to do this thing. Unless you have an idea and how to do this thing, please reserve some of those th those those opinions you have for after this or before this.
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: Other some some other time.
Damien: Yeah, well it's never gonna happen, bro. It's never gonna
Josh: It has never happened once in the history of the conversations I've seen. But that would be what a moderator is for. Like that's technically why we have
Damien: Mm.
Josh: hosts is so that they can actively direct the conversation. It's like people could always
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: say random things, but your goal as the host or the moderator is to keep things relevant to the conversation.
Damien: Yeah. I guess it doesn't help that to me, like content is content is not about answers. Content
Josh: Mostly no.
Damien: is always about sustaining just suspense. Hey, the answer is coming. Someday
Josh: Mm-hmm. Right.
Damien: soon, sometime soon, the answer's about to come. And
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: it's like you sitting there, it's it's like when you listen to these radicals and you listen to a lot of these people, you're like, you're never gonna say anything, are you? You always just gonna keep talking about how this is connected to this and that's connected to that and see this. You're never gonna tell us what what we should do. Are you? You you're never gonna say that. And
Josh: You're never gonna present data about things that you have done that solved the problem or things that actually could make things better. Making things better is not interesting to you. You don't seem like you're even remotely interested. In making things better for me, hmm. I'm gonna stop I'm going to stop expecting this.
Damien: Yeah. I you but I I I like to hear I have to listen to it with a I feel like a trained ear. just like when I was listening to Hassan Piker today. I'm not listening. Well, I'm I'm hoping that there's is a solution here, but when
Josh: Fine. That'd be nice.
Damien: there's not when there's not, I'm not surprised. I'm just listening for the mind trick thing. Like like what is it what good question are you asking? What what question what question could you submit to the rational people to fix? That's that's what I'm listening for.
Josh: Right.
Damien: Because I'm like, when I'm listening to these other people, I'm like, you're this is irrational. This is this is not getting to the point. It's not getting to fixing anything. I can't continuously listen to this. But you may bring up something that's nice, and then I might take that. and whittle away with it with little away at it in a in a in a in a means to try to fix it or fix something, right?
Josh: Right. You can find you can always eat the meat and leave the bone. You find the relevant part, you extract it, analyze that part, and then
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: finally say, Okay, this is the part they brought up, which is a real problem. Okay, thank you for
Damien: Right.
Josh: actively noticing that. And you don't like that problem and you even found a way to describe that problem that is incomplete. You found a portion that you didn't like, and so you generalized and you were like, it's terrible. Like, well, you know, bad things are bad. And so
Damien: Go ahead.
Josh: Now I know that this is a tactic people use and a way people use to describe this. Like, all right, now I can more appropriately figure out what their intent is and say, you're trying to get to this one thing that is a real problem. There are probably real solutions. I should look for those real solutions somewhere else. And then, you know, when someone brings us up and they overgeneralize and they present it like you present it, now I'll be prepared to say, ho, I remember this problem. I agree that this problem exists.
Damien: Uh-huh.
Josh: Have you thought about these solutions or what is your work toward that? Because you know they're not doing anything. So at least there's at least when they
Damien: Ha ha ha.
Josh: when they bring things up to and complain just for the sake of complaining, you get to then put them on the spot and say, how would you like to add to the solution? Because apparently this has already been solved.
Damien: Yeah, but when I say the trained air to me, I'm kinda getting s I told you this I'm getting set in my ways, right? Yes, I would like to hear a solution. But I don't expect I'm at the point I don't expect to hear a solution. All I expect to hear is better questions to ask. And and when I'm saying take those questions, basically I am saying, that's a good question. That's something that I would aim at the status quo mentality. that would op that would leave the door open for ridiculousness to come and s and and swoop in. Right.
Josh: Nice. So you can at least cut those cut those avenues off. You're like, all right.
Damien: Because that's the only avenue. That's the
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: that's what I mean about the fraying on the fabric of the country, right? There are a lot of they're the social ballasts, right? Right? There's there's the social
Josh: Right.
Damien: ballasts, but you're peeling off the the fraying is the peeling off of the core that they don't really know where, but they're just like they need they need a like a compass, like a something a good idea to follow, right? But if they don't have that, then these the the fray starts to sound sound I wouldn't say compelling, but reasonable. Right? It s it sounds reasonable. Right? And
Josh: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, in lieu in in in lieu of a good idea, people will choose any popular idea.
Damien: Right, exactly. So when when when you get people like Hassan Piker or or any of the the far left saying like, yeah, people are becoming more amenable t or more these these are ideas are becoming more palatable to this generation, it's like, something's wrong in the core foundation
Josh: Something's wrong.
Damien: here. but at the same time, the wrong because to me The core foundation is not deeply embedded. They need That's to me it all of these things come together to tell me what needs to be not implemented, but What do we need to like to shine a light on? So everybody's like, that's where we're going. okay, we're going there. You know
Josh: Right.
Damien: what I'm saying? Yeah.
Josh: good.
Damien: So it it it's that part for me. because like sometimes I'll say like this when I'm read some some of the comments and in in in in videos and stuff like that, or see people talk, I'm like, man,
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: it's a lot of people who actually know some stuff out there, right? But
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: I don't hear these ideas being promoted anywhere. Right? So I'll give you one. I don't know if you ever heard this one. This is interesting to me. So I think this might have been on the Piker video or Actually, no, I it was they was doing like a Thomas Sowell celebration recently, I think on a Hoover or something like that. I can't remember which one. But the dude put in the comment, he was saying, if I had two houses, would I give you one? Yes. if I had two guars, would I give you one? Yes. If I had two chickens, would I give you one? No. Because I actually have two chickens. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: But that was that mak but to me that that takes a level of thinking to understand. Okay, I would give you all the stuff that I don't really have. Sure.
Josh: That's it. That's funny. man.
Damien: Yeah, man
Josh: that is that is a funny joke. And you know, it it is it is it is a true statement because yes,
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: people are very good at giving away things they don't have.
Damien: Right.
Josh: It it points to the fact that there are some things that people do want and when they do have them, that if you want to have the things that they have, the way we engage with that is trade. And therefore we have to exchange value for value. And I think that is a part that I want like that that that to me highlights the fact that value exists and therefore it
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: needs to be communicated to people. This is what we are doing When we go to work, when we go to the marketplace, when we talk about the whole idea of capitalism or our economy or commerce in general, it's like we are giving we are trading something. We are quote unquote giving something away, but we are getting something in return. And it's not a wrong thing to do. It's not evil, it's not immoral just because we benefit. This isn't caught. We're trying to actively build something, therefore. We trade effectively and therefore none of us lose. It's a win-win. That's actually possible. That is what this whole society is built on.
Damien: And that's true, right? But here's the thing, like in what you just said. Because I'm kind of getting a away from that. Like, what you said sounds completely rational to me. I I it's almost like I feel like everybody the people who need to know that already know that, right? Be and my my issue is that that are it's not an argument, that explanation. is helpful for someone who's transitioning from immaturity to maturity, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: But it's not so helpful for someone who refuses to develop from immaturity to maturity. And
Josh: Right. It doesn't help ignorance.
Damien: right. And so when I'm dealing when I'm when when I'm thinking about talking to like the radicals and the people who love that type of thing, they just like, I don't even I don't even care that it makes sense. It's almost like Tetullian, like
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: like I believe it because it's ridiculous, you know?
Josh: Ha ha ha. Yes.
Damien: Be because if i if you were to hear like some of the stuff that P Piker was saying in this in this conversation, it's just like he makes it seem like, you know, making money is just this lottery. Who knows who's gonna make make money, you know, and and and you know everybody should be able everybody should be able to have the same kind of life, even though that's not the reality of his life and that's has nothing to do with the things that they do.
Josh: Right.
Damien: And you're just gonna take somebody else's money to do this thing. The point of the reason why I'm bringing that all up, all up is that. You can have all of these reasonable answers. They're no interested in hearing that. Like reason is not something that they're interested in. It's so
Josh: No. No. Reason is your justification for your claim. But yeah, when it comes to
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: people saying crazy things, then you and you and you go back down to the basic level of that is not allowed rule. And if they're like, hey, I don't even follow the rules and you go down, that is not possible. People are stronger than you. Like your nonsense isn't going to to isn't going to be tolerated. Even if you don't get it, it still won't be tolerated. And then eventually if you start believing that truth, acknowledging reality, then we can work on the rules stage. And then finally when you get past the rules stage, we can finally get to reason. But I can't I can't expect you to start at reason. I don't I don't pretend that they're gonna raise they're gonna grow to that level immediately.
Damien: No. And and I'm gonna tell you to me, one of I hope this is not totally unrelated. But one of the things he said to in the in the in the interview, which to me shows up in a lot of people is when they you ever see these people who go to other countries and then the other country does the other country thing and then they are like appalled, like, what are they doing doing this thing over here? This is totally ridiculous, like
Josh: Right. Completely different.
Damien: Y you're gonna go to jail for fifty years for something like you're in their country. You you're you are being judged by their rules. You don't get to dictate here. Just because you think that you have these global rules that you travel with, they don't people don't operate on these global rules. So this is why Brittany Grinder was almost going to go to jail for 10 years in Russia.
Josh: Right?
Damien: You know what I'm saying? But They just go to places like, man, you can't do this here and you can't this is totally crazy. Yeah, that that's their country. That's that's what they do. You get what I'm saying?
Josh: That's what they do. Expressly. And they told you they were very kind at least they at least they told you with words. Frequently people just find out with fists.
Damien: Right, exactly. Don't come over here with that. man. I was watching Law and Order last week. This old one. And basically it was a Nigerian. they were trafficking heroin through carriers. Carriers that carry heroin. And one of the per people died or whatever. And so they got caught up in some scheme, some scam. And basically the the the Nigerian consulate or whatever got into it and They wanted the the person extradited. So they just kind of play the game with the the the trial to kind of get it thrown out. So the person would go back to Nigeria and they were like, Yeah, y'all handle it one way here. We get back there, they done. You know what I'm saying? Right.
Josh: There will no longer be a problem from this person the rest of our lives. Nope.
Damien: So it's eye for an eye tooth for a tooth man some places.
Josh: yes. And I find that's one way to deal with things. And I it's it's not always terrible. It's not always wrong. I mean, there are real times where I'm just like, hey, maybe maybe we do less of this. Like with this whole trial for this lady now that everybody's talking about.
Damien: In the wheelchair.
Josh: The lady who killed her kids, what's her name?
Damien: Yeah, the one in the wheelchair. I don't know her name.
Josh: In a wheelchair, okay, there go. And so they're like, maybe, maybe it's insanity. I'm like, alright. And so, you know, we're all on the edge of our seats because you know, maybe she could she could get off with insanity. I'm like, okay, but like her actions still kill people. So
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: we're gonna make sure that doesn't happen, right? We have laws that we're gonna follow. So
Damien: Right.
Josh: that sounds like a plan. So you and and so someone said, so We should give her a hysterectomy then? I'm like no that's not where I was gonna go with that. Nope. I mean I get it, she does kill kids, and so her having kids is a concern, but there's lots of ways to stop people from having kids. You could just keep them from making kids. That's probably reasonable in her jail cell that she keeps far away from other people that she's murdering, right? We don't allow murderers just to like wander around afterwards, even if they're insane. Sometimes because
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: they're insane. Right? That's that's how that works. But either way, I mean I get it that people are looking at this as saying if she gets off if she gets declared insane, we shouldn't give her the death penalty. I'm like, Cool. Alright, I hear what you're saying. We should probably keep her away from children though. Certainly keep
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: her away from other people that she could kill. That seems like a reasonable step.
Damien: I mean, I agree. I thought you was gonna go another way because apparently man there's some conspiracy theory going around about this trial. I don't know if you've been catching that part of it.
Josh: I have not gotten that. I to me I do not understand why this is national news. Like it is it blows my mind that someone's like, hey, this is a murderer. This murder happened and that's wrong. I'm like, yeah, that's terrible. And like, yep. And now we don't know what's going to happen. What what do you mean you don't know what's going to happen? It's it's a murder trial that she confessed to that she's clearly not not well. What what probab what about that left room for Uncertainty. I'm literally just like dumbfounded. Like, why are you still talking to me about this? I don't understand it.
Damien: So but see, the conspiracy theorists have it in their mind that the man could have possibly done this.
Josh: Course, yes. clearly.
Damien: And because they like they got all of these camera views and what he was wearing and when he went to the CVS and what time it was, and and then like, well, he could have killed the kids and then did something with her.
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: And somehow I didn't really quite follow because the problem what it what it was, it's just one of these internet videos. I think I might have seen it on DJ Academics, matter of fact. But it's another dude, I forgot he I forgot he does these videos. I forgot his name. But The problem I had with it is that it's not something that the defense is saying. And it's not something that the police are saying. It's just
Josh: Ha ha
Damien: It's just a bunch of people who were playing internet detective looking at videos and timestamps and clothes and pictures and stuff. And so they're like, how could he get here and there with different clothes and this looks like a different, totally different person? And look at the mud on his boots. And look at this It's like,
Josh: Ha
Damien: I'm like, well, if the defense thought that, then I might engage in the argument because That's how they could get off. But they're not even claiming that. They're not even saying that this is what happened. But these people still running with the story, like, yo, but they're not saying it, but it looks like this guy could have done it. I'm like, wow, y'all, this not it's ridiculous to me because
Josh: It is ridiculous. That's that's the next level. But I'm there there were a lot of people on social media making fun of how surprised or how other women were phrasing or framing framing this whole situation as even when the woman confesses to being the problem, they find a new way to make the man the problem. They were just Clearly he's the man. Clearly he was doing it. He is the issue. But she she said she was the issue and she actively did it. No. Nope. It must be the man convincing her to do it. It's all just a big lie. What do you call people who lie nowadays? she's she's been gaslit. He's gaslighting her and d into doing
Damien: my god.
Josh: this whole thing. I I don't I don't think that's that's the answer. Nor if you watch the movie Gaslighting or Gaslight Gaslight you would you would know that's not what that means. Also,
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: what are we doing? Are we just we just denying the evidence of our ears and our eyes now just so we can claim that all people who have a penis are evil? It seems it seems excessive. I'm just throwing it out there.
Damien: Man look, I think I'm pretty sure that this kinda has been going on forever. And part of the problem is is men actually that's part of the problem because the there are terrible dudes, right? And yes. Right.
Josh: Yes, crime exists. I don't wanna ever pretend that crime doesn't exist. I just get really concerned when people sc skip over the evidence part and they're like, Everyone's a criminal like I don't think I don't think we can generalize to everyone. We need the we need to rein it in. Come on.
Damien: Yeah. But then men become suckers for women. They they they pander a lot of time. And some lotta people call it simping. But it's almost like the gentleman thing. It it's it's like I understand why a gentleman is a gentleman. It's it to me that that's rooted in some biological, sociological thing, right? But when you take it too far, like if whenever you're do being a gentleman like if some if a woman is treating you a certain way, you don't have to continue to be a gentleman. I mean you probably should just not you should probably disengage, first of all, you know what I'm saying?
Josh: There you go. That's what a gentleman would do. A gentleman would stop actively being stepped on and allowing and or enabling bad behavior. We shouldn't enable bad behavior.
Damien: You don't you don't you shouldn't im enable bad behavior. See the the the the bad behavior and from a man's standpoint can be attributed to simps and fuckboys. Those are the people who I wouldn't even say they advocate for bad behavior. They they have a t a tolerance for it. Because simps are thinking like, maybe it'll be my turn, maybe it'll be my turn one time, maybe it'll be my turn, right?
Josh: Right?
Damien: And then fuck boys, they just they don't really give a shit anyway, cause they just in and out. They just trying to figure out when they can get in and get out.
Josh: Right. There you go.
Damien: But men's actually have boundaries and and and like principles and stuff and that's
Josh: Ha ha.
Damien: kinda discomforting to people who don't like those types of things, you know. They don't it's it's not comfortable for you to always be having these rules and stuff, you know, when you're dealing with me.
Josh: Right. Yes. there they stand for something. Rude.
Damien: Right, exactly. but at the same time there's other aspect of it is just that there's an attractiveness and then just when a woman is real attractive, well men start to lose their minds. You know, especially
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: men who haven't had had a lot of experience with attractive women before. They just
Josh: Right.
Damien: it's like, well, I can simp a little bit. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: Right. It's just a little bad behavior. I could I can deal with this. It's everybody's gotta make compromises. But
Damien: I mean but that's but it but that's that's part of male woman interaction, courting and all of that. Like that there's just an aspect of the beauty piece that's beautiful woman just gonna get. She's got more options, she's
Josh: Yes.
Damien: got more appeal. and and and it can make you overlook the things that matter, the character pieces.
Josh: Right.
Damien: For a b for a bit. Not forever. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: There you go. Mm mm. These are all temporary forces.
Damien: Right. So yeah. But yeah, it's just I just there there has to be this reckoning somehow, man. Like there are people, many people out here talking about it. It's just that When I hear them talking about it typically it's within a traditional context. And I don't, you know me, I don't really like the traditional context. I think the traditional context has some merit, but I think the traditional context is so detached from the reason that it's just ex it's it's just doing the practical piece of it. It it's like, well, this is how you interact with a man. Why?
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: Why do you not yell and scream and punch and slap a man because he can beat you very badly. Right. Yes, that's not good.
Josh: I he will return that same level of violence on you. That's a bad choice.
Damien: Yes, not good for you because you're physically different on average. That's not a good thing for you. but then people are like, well you don't hit a girl. What these this is why you don't hit a girl, but if the girls now are not caring about all of this history and context that we have, and she just feels like she can punch you, then she's just like a weaker dude at some point. Like you know what I'm saying?
Josh: I mean, she's still human and if she does human things, she's going to get human consequences. And I think that's While it's fine to have a society and have customs and say like this is the way we have done things in the past and say, all right, well that's great. When people violate those customs and say, I don't have to do any of those rules, like you don't, but they're here for a reason. If you violate those, you will find out the reason. Because everyone is not
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: living at the perfect highest level of society, thinking like, I can just let it go and it'll be fine. Sometimes people can't let it go. Sometimes it isn't gonna be fine. You can't disrespect Well, one sometimes you shouldn't, yes. Sometimes
Damien: No. As you shouldn't. And sometimes you shouldn't. Right.
Josh: it isn't life or death, and some people overreact in the sense to say, I don't
Damien: yeah.
Josh: like this and now I'm gonna make it a life or death issue. I'm like, okay, now we need to calm back down. But like there are many forms of disrespect and there are ways to respond to respond to that appropriately. And I if you don't know that way, it it it's helpful for people to learn that earlier, but regardless. Society has customs. If you don't follow the customs, you're gonna find out there are consequences for a reason.
Damien: Yeah. Because man It is a psychological piece, man. It it's a psychological piece because this is why I got so upset with the movie Barbie. You know this already. Because
Josh: Yes.
Damien: it's like, yo, there's there are problems at times. Yes. But you're not solving the problem. It's you're supposed to help us elevate society and you're not doing that. You're not You're not saying, okay, I'm a woman and now I can make my own money and I'm independent. Let's cooperate together because you've you're interdependent. I'm interdependent. Let's cooperate together and elevate the whole thing. It's not that. It's just, hey,
Josh: You can take that.
Damien: I don't need you anymore. That's not true. That's it's not even true. Because
Josh: Mm right That's not how you got here, so you know that's not how we can continue, but also it's ignoring a lot of the entire point. But like it's yeah, Barbie is also super frustrating for me because they it played on a power dynamic instead of looking at any kind of grander flourishing or p or picture. They were like, you
Damien: Right.
Josh: had time to be in tr be in control. Now it's my time. My time to be in control. And you treated
Damien: Right.
Josh: me badly and now I get to treat you badly. I'm like, both of these are terrible character. I
Damien: Yes.
Josh: am not rooting for anyone. Both of you change
Damien: Yes.
Josh: and grow. This is terrible.
Damien: Yeah. It's horrible. It but it takes elevated people on both sides. May and like I told you to me, when I see some of the attitudes I see coming from women today, it reminds me just of an immature male. And so maybe that societal they need to go through that societal phase to kinda develop into a the ability to cooperate, but you have to have equals on both sides to do these things. Right?
Josh: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Damien: And Look, and then I'm seeing like some fascinating, like the WNBA is off the chain now. I mean, it it's been off
Josh: Right? It's crazy.
Damien: the chain for a minute, but I didn't I just wasn't aware,
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: you know what I'm saying? But I'm happy. I'm happy to see these things. But at the same time, like when I say that's not true, yes, biologically that's not true. Maybe biologically it can be true in the future, but The protection that is required that allows women to do these things was not done by women. it was not. we just gotta deal with that fact. We just gonna have to deal with that fact.
Josh: Need to acknowledge that part of reality.
Damien: Yes. And so you can't why would you be mad at men when they are the ones that are like, Trying to usher in. We're usher well, yeah, we are ushering in this. We're like, yo, look, do your thing. Like, we're
Josh: Right.
Damien: going to tell other all all the bad men not to mess with you. We're going to have policing. We're going to have, you know, armed forces. We're going to do those things so you have the ability to go and make your own money and be independent. Why would you male bash when the s that
Josh: Why would you male... why would you overgeneralize to the point of busting all the people who are your protection? It's like driving on a car and then finding the times like I get to hold the gun now and then shooting your tires. Why would you shoot your tire? These are your tires.
Damien: Ha ha ha.
Josh: What is happening in your mind where you think that is helpful to you? To you, the person that you say it it boggles my mind. Women say they want to be independent and they want to move forward and therefore they have to tear down the men in their lives. Like the ones in your
Damien: But
Josh: life? Your people? Aren't they the ones that kept you alive and kept you here? Like, well, some of them were bad. I hear you. And that's terrible. Criminals, criminals should be should be prosecuted and taken out. And that's fair. But like the criminals, they weren't all criminals. Like the people who were stealing from you. Aren't all like every man you know is not a thief. Some of them have to have stuff for these people to steal, right? Some of these people
Damien: Right.
Josh: did stuff. So those people are probably not the ones you mean. So probably if you want to be clearer, in your anger should be pointed at the crime and not these random people who just happen to be different than you. That seems excessive.
Damien: I mean, but people hold on to that. And
Josh: They do.
Damien: look, I I understand from a certain standpoint, but we it's just something that needs to be addressed and probably better articulated. Cause I I'm not even really hearing great conversations. So maybe this might be something I would like to focus on, because we've got people coming on that's gonna be talking about relationships, and maybe I might wanna harp on that afterwards. Because I'm not hearing much better from the male side all the time, right?
Josh: No. I I mean the elevated voices on both sides seem to be really immature and I think it's super, super painful because there have been studies done into how societies develop on how societies work together, how families are effectively built, how people work together appropriately to build real communities, real cooperatives that that that elevate their society. I'm like, We know we have answers. It's not that no answers exist. It is that we're not talking about most of these answers and a lot of these answers coming together in in real systems. Like people put real incentives in place for people to behave a certain way. I'm like, how how could that happen? It's like, well, first you need to have people who know the answers. I'm like, Well, we have the internet and a whole lot of human history to go back on. So
Damien: Ha ha ha.
Josh: we should be able to find some as some answers. We don't have to have it all figured out, but like some timeless principles exist. Probably shouldn't be randomly stealing. Probably shouldn't be randomly killing each other. Probably should actually find ways. To acknowledge people's strengths and like partner with them on toward the thing that they're good at to build up the the goal we want. That seems like a reasonable approach. It's worked for a lot of people. Let's work on that since we're all people. Whether we're male people or female people, people, people. Let's just work together to do those things that we say are are shared values. But anyway, I I don't hear a lot of those sp those specific words or those specific ideas being put forth like these were the things that worked. This is why we work together. This is why we used to have two two family incomes, like two or two anyway, the both parents worked. I I think yeah, thank
Damien: Parent household Okay.
Josh: you. Dual house income. I'm like, this is what the s foundation was built on and this is how people were able to coordinate that. I'm like, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We can have more people talk about that. So many people are still alive who actually lived through it. So I I I think I would love to hear more people who made it through the past deppression and have a very clear view of like this is how this worked when things got really bad and this is how we could make things a little bit better. And we go, look at that. Principles.
Damien: Yeah. But just to kind of touch on the question that I asked Kirana on the last one. What I did with she or what I like to see, or what do I think history has gotten wrong in a sense of but that's different in modern times. so the everything you just well, mo a lot of what you just said, I don't know that I totally agree that we have those answers. Because I don't know that I've ever seen a society that actually has done what I think is required to have this cohesive cooperative. I mean, I've seen role playing, traditional roles. And I've seen people work well in traditional role in traditional wor roles pretty well, you know. But I think that there's room for improvement from there, right? Now, to get rid of maturity and traditional roles together is just completely ridiculous to me, which that's that's what I feel like we're getting, right? No
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: traditional role and no elevation, no, enlightenment for from
Josh: Right.
Damien: a relationship standpoint. But The whole idea of like woman independence, to me, this is what they were grappling with in like, I don't know if it was feminism 2.0 whatever, second wave feminism and Betty
Josh: Right.
Damien: Friedan and and just the whole identifying the self and not finding yourself within just a family and just kinda like being a mother as a role or or a wife as a role. and and that To change your your paradigm in that way takes some time socially, social sociologically,
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: I guess I would say, or I think that's the word I'm looking for. Cause it's like this there's there's a whole bunch of ideas surrounding that biological reality that exists within the pocket of society even as throughout generations. but When we get to these ideas of of even like we people entertaining non monogamy, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: which for me I I'm not sure I I don't know exactly your position, but you know me, I'm not I'm not anti non monogamy. That's a weird way to say that. Not
Josh: Yeah, right.
Damien: against but because I've seen so many examples where people Play the role and just fuck up the whole time. Like they it
Josh: Right.
Damien: j it's just like, yeah, we married. But it's a lot of stuff behind closed doors on that thing. It's like, you got a kid across the street or you've you all a this is not y'all are just pretending to do the thing or not even y you you're just showing the thing, which I don't know what's going on behind the closed doors. And I think just that that pretending to do it is it it ruins people's minds on on the issue. Now there are some people, don't get me wrong, I think that they do execute it well, but I don't really think that they I'll put it to you like this. Their dedication is not always so much the dedication to each other as it is a dedication to an idea.
Josh: Yes, a hundred percent. And those are the ones that work. I think that's the tradition, that's the part that makes me excited about it is the fact that the traditionally there were there those traditional arranged marriages or at least those close knit communities were the ones who had the most success because they had a they were both committed to the idea. Committed to the idea of marriage was enough to say like this is what we are doing. And this is how we are doing it. And some people did it better than others. I mean, some people played in the Olympics. And some people were just like effing up on the track all the time. Didn't never made it, never made it around what round once. I'm like, all right. There is a continuum of people who are proficient or excellent at it versus those who are just miserable at it. And I think that's something that has to be said enough has to be said and needs to be acknowledged. When I hear people say, marriage is dead, everybody's just giving up on it. I'm like, People are bad at marriage, that's true. But not everyone is bad at marriage. There are people who are actively good at this and there are people who and those people are making real communities and growing and doing things and making it bet like they're making things better for them and their kids, which is cool. I wanna see more of that.
Damien: Right.
Josh: But I don't I don't hold everybody to the same standard, like, they're good just because they know about an idea and they said the words means that they're good now. Like, they have to live a whole lifetime of like excellence to prove that they're good at it. I don't think everyone's good just because they said said words. That's not that's not the case. That's not how that was not even the proposition. This was this was always a character focus.
Damien: Yeah, but I guess my focus is the quality of that idea. Because if you say people aren't doing marriage well. To me there's this there's an assumption of what that idea means. And my thing is I think that the idea of marriage in the Western context needs some refinement.
Josh: I mean it definitely needs to be better understood, meaning we need to return to the original meaning. I think there has been a significant drift, we'll say, from the original social contract to this governmental permit.
Damien: so when you say get back to what it means, I'm I'm I'm thinking like, well, I don't think it really grasped everything that it needed to be from the beginning. That's that's my thing. I like it's it's practical. It was
Josh: Right to go.
Damien: doable, it was prudent, is that the word? I just don't think that I don't think that the the idea, the way that it's Presented as a cultural conception Yeah, because they kind of like the idea of marriage is different in different places. I don't think that it it provides the space to get people where they need to be. Now that's just how I'm feeling about it. I just think that I don't know if I would say people are more developed or it's not really that. It's just that.
Josh: No.
Damien: When we ha there are questions that we have not answered with it.
Josh: So originally marriage had this clear comp clear value add where one family had a kid, another family had a kid, and their kids got together to unite these families and the girls' family would you know, pay dowry to this males family so we would actually have the resources to start the new family, build the house, and start the environment to say, okay, these are ways to connect the people we want in a real way and give them the resources we want to both further our values, further our community, make things real, make things more convenient. And the idea of marriage gave people a lot more t to hand to hold on to socially because it gave them social standing It gave them a way to make money, but also gave them a way to be a part of the community because they had a place to fit. And I think that was a great clear goal point institution. I'm like, all right, this has a function now. This is actually doing what it needs to do, we're moving in the right direction. And that was a great way when people had that commitment and stayed in that commitment that allowed people from that that kept people from Starting a bunch of random little families all around where their kids could intermingle and cause a bunch of you know, genetic issues down the down the line. So you had stronger societies when you had people who actively stayed within the bonds of ma marriage and kept sex there and did the things they needed to do because this way the people had the ability to make sure the gene pool stayed effective and c clean enough to where there wasn't so much intermixing. And that allowed those societies to outperform other other societies around. And so my God was great. That was the plan. That was the point. And then nowadays it is different. Everyone's like, mm, we don't have to do it that way. We can just kinda wing it and just go go around and do whatever. I'm like, there's a lot of things we can do differently. I mean, that's physically possible. But for a society, we really we the closer we can get cl back to a one man, one woman marriage to keep the family together, to keep this clarity and keep the genes from intermix in intermix intermingling, the better we we could we we could be. And I and I and I realize there are other ways to expand the gene pool. But I also just like, hey, specifically this was the way we were doing it. Let's at least do this and then we can do extra stuff later. But like I don't see I do not see people developing the character necessary to maintain a marriage long enough for them to have a family and keep things together, which bothers me so much in the sense of like, this is frustrating. How am I going to navigate it myself?
Damien: To me, you for your specific concern, I think you just have to find someone who believes in the same idea, right?
Josh: Yes.
Damien: But for because to me, I I can't immediately hear that and think and translate that to today. Like those people and those populations at that time, not even the same. Like we had to have industrialization before we can even blow. Like we've got all these people. And all this mobility and all of these choices is geography, I wouldn't say it's a was a problem before, but it's not something that was easily
Josh: Ha ha ha.
Damien: you know, easily navigated. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: Much harder before. Right. It was much, much harder before.
Damien: So so I don't I'm not so much worried about the gene pool is is as I think the ancient is someone who back in the days wo was worried about it. I but I would say to me, like, There are a lot of things that in a historical context that just was kinda accepted. And we've got to I do believe in like reimagining some things. Like just the whole idea of concept of women and how they interacted. It is I I have a s I wouldn't even say if it's a sympathy, but I do understand when they're like, yo, we didn't used to make be able to make money. Okay, we didn't used to be able to vote. Okay. but then there's some other aspects of it as like, hey, there are these social ideas that we felt oppressed by. It's not like somebody told us,
Josh: Right. There were some real limitations.
Damien: yeah, we had ex not like somebody forced us and said, Hey, you need to do this. It's just that we the idea was they they have a a so a relationship to the idea that just almost forces them to come compel themselves. Almost like an a man from a man f standpoint of yo, you need to be you you need to have some kind of virtue. You need to you need to be able to do something. but some of that's valid, right? Some of that's valid and some of it is invalid. And that's what I mean about refining and re-imagining, because without e eating the meat and leaving the bone, and continuing to do that process, you just start conflating a lot of this stuff and confusing it. And that's just what I mean about like I just With all the available options to people, with all of the choices and A relationship in my mind, especially a marriage, which to me, the concept of a marriage is a long term commitment with a a partner, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: now people say you might not need a a legal marriage anym a legal marriage anymore because the concept is kinda like messed up 'cause it's got that government aspect in it or whatever. But that commitment to me is is That bonding of it to to make it a long-term thing. It's something that you're not going to always be like we were talking to Kirana, it's like you're not happy all the time with it. That's not the goal to be infinitely happy. You
Josh: No. No.
Damien: know what I'm saying? But it's a good life, is a in the way that you're putting together something that you think is valuable and worth pursuing over the long term. But
Josh: There you go.
Damien: even with that, the things that you see people Doing today. Like if I'm a right now, I'm imagining like Kim Kardashian's mother, whatever her name is, and Bruce Jenner. When somebody wakes up and says, you know what? I kinda wanna go the other way. You know,
Josh: Right?
Damien: I'm not saying that I understand the idea. But the idea of a commitment to a person, you know that person, you have some understanding
Josh: Right.
Damien: of that person. And maybe that relationship changes. But to me, that's what what I mean about reimagining a relationship, because it may be that that person is going a different way. Does that mean that that relationship has to end? Does that can it take
Josh: Doesn't it doesn't necessarily.
Damien: on another form? You know, can it?
Josh: Right?
Damien: That's what that's the type of stuff that I'm thinking about because I think a lot of times when people take the traditional context and the historical context, they're like, we gotta this is over, we gotta end it, we gotta and I'm like, Well, it's a commitment to a person. Yeah. You know
Josh: Do we? Right? But that that is the the the traditional context is the fact that you are committed to this person regardless of the changes people go through. Because you get married to a person and that person continues to grow and change throughout people's lifetime. And the person you
Damien: Right
Josh: marry is not the person you're gonna stay married to. And I think that's the part in the sense of people do change and grow as people throughout their lifetime. And therefore the person you marry at twenty is not the same person you're talking to and having coffee with at 80. And so when people are just like, well, they changed and so we can't we can no longer be together. Or I fell out of love, we can no longer be together. I'm like, that is not the point. You're not here just to randomly get that honeymoon spark of happiness, joy, and feelings. Though those feelings are important and there are ways to make sure they happen more frequently than not. That's fine. But to just say,
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: I don't have it and therefore this whole relationship is is is over now. I'm like, that is not a foundation. You can't live that way for anything. Also, not a marriage
Damien: And and I underst and I get that. But what I would say to you is that When you're making those decisions at a young age, if you don't have a good conception of what you're getting into, like that's the whole goal of making a great conception of marriage. So a person who at a young age can look at that idea and say, or have a an idea of what they're getting themselves into. Because if you don't sharpen and d more clearly define that idea in a in a useful way,
Josh: Right.
Damien: they're gonna make a a a decision at a young age that's really untenable it in some in some ways. But if you
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: have a better idea of what it could be and what it is and it's like, okay, you can make a better decision. That's what I'm saying. That's all.
Josh: Okay. And I definitely think people should go in with their eyes open and should go in with a better decision. They don't they should make this choice based off better data. They should see what a marriage could be, see what marriage actually is, and say, Let's strive to be what we the the ideal. Let's strive to work toward getting better at the things that are gonna make us more successful than this. And I think that's something that parents could do for their kids too. They they model it so the kids can can actively imitate it, but they also say these are the expectations. We have for you. And if you want to be set up, you know, be part of the family, get the status, get the respect, get the general uplifting part. Like this is what we respect. These are the values we're working towards. Share these values, work toward these things, demonstrate these virtues, and we will be able to be excited about things that you do. We will actually be able to reward you for what you do. If you decide not to practice these virtues and start start going into vices and start actively causing societal harm by refusing our customs and doing the anti-customs, doing the things that tear down what we're building, then you're going to get different consequences. We're not gonna reward you. We are gonna disrespect you. We may have to take actual you know, action against you depending how criminal your your behavior is. You can you're free to have your own thoughts and feelings, but when you actively start attacking the things we're building, we can't treat that as just another difference of opinion. It's like no, no, you're you're you're causing harm.
Damien: I mean, look, I agree with you. I agree with with you to a certain extent, Josh, but let me just and then I know it's getting late but let me just try to communicate how I I see this thing. I don't know that you and I came up in a different environment. Maybe it's very similar, right? And I don't think it's anything necessarily wrong with what you're saying. But what I'm saying is that if I'm being objective and I'm looking at society in America today, those ideas existed and people are going another way. They're going another way. So when you already had an existing idea that you thought worked, and people go another way, that idea in the way that it existed. Can't just be put back in. You just can't put it back. Something different has to happen with that idea. You can't just say, hey, let's let's just bring it back. If if it worked like that from the beginning, people wouldn't have gone away from it. You you gotta
Josh: That's not how it works though.
Damien: that's that's I mean, that's that's how I look at it. I I always think
Josh: Let's see.
Damien: you've gotta refine that idea, you've got to present it and you have to have learned something. That made people go a different way. So, hey, this was an idea. I thought it was good, but people didn't. It's just like when you I had a store, I had an idea, I thought it was good, people didn't buy it. I need to do something, something I'm not doing, something we're not getting right about this product that we need to to do better. And that's how, that's how I think about it. You know, because if if it was This whole go back thing. I hate when people do the go back thing. We gotta go
Josh: Right.
Damien: back to the if it was good, then why did people leave it? And I'm not saying that they left it for good reasons.
Josh: Right? But I don't think people left it. I don't think people left it. Like In a store, if you have a product and you have people using the product, you're like, this is great. When they stop using the product, like, why why aren't people using the product? This is crazy. But people didn't leave stores. They just stopped
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: using the product. And so, like, what so marriage as an institution, I think, as the store, like it's just fine. People are still getting married all the time. They still engender to be married. Most people want to be married. Marriage is not a pr not the problem. But the way we have framed it, the way we have thought about it, the way we've tried to do it, as treating it like a form of elevated dating, is a terrible plan and has not worked out great for a lot of people. And I'm like, yeah, you probably should never do that. That's not what was offered, not not not what was advertised by the people who originated. But you know, other people did advertise it that way. Like, we gotta give people freedom. They can just do whatever now. I'm like, I don't think we should let them make we should not let them repeat the mistakes of the past. We should probably tell them about those mistakes. beforehand so they don't do that same thing again. I don't think we're doing a whole lot of that. And that's been hard for people. Anyway, I think there's a lot of things that could be fixed about the way we present it, how we talk about things, and about the way we organize society to receive the benefits of a solid, stable, committed relationship, which I don't see happening. I don't see people actively praising people doing virtuous things, especially when it comes to marriage.
Damien: Because I just because to me When you're solving a problem, it does not mean the environments holds holds stable all of the time. Like that's why I like when I'm looking at it in historical context, when you're like people are doing something different and that this elevated dating thing. But I'm like, well, but to me, because these choices, there's so many more choices to be had that didn't exist before. So How does the old concept work with the Multiple choices, not to say that
Josh: Because there are choices. I think that is the that is that is the point. I think that is the all right, that's what I'm trying to get at, I guess, is the Because we have exposure to more and more ideas, it is more important now for us to have a clearer standard of what ideas. make the cut as far as what we give our attention to. And so
Damien: Okay.
Josh: because we have more and more choices of partners, it matters more now for us to say, what is the reason we would even get together? What qualifies as a person who's worth committing to? And what would I do to commit to it? Like what is the reason to stay committed in this case? And I think there is a real reason. And I don't think people are looking at things long term.
Damien: Well, I I I don't disagree with you on that. What I'm less I'm less misaligned with you on the reason abstract aspect of it and more misaligned on the practical day to day aspect of it. That's what I'm saying because long term commitments, especially to people in my opinion, is a good thing. Because you that's a long-term commitment to something that's complex. It it says something about you in a way. but what does that look like in the day-to-day is more well, because what you start doing is that's when the roles come into play. I take he takes out the trash, I cook the food. He goes out and does work, I stay home. And then these are traditional roles. But that's what I'm saying, like that's where the imagination has to come in and into in my mind.
Josh: Yes, this I agree with that. Every role should be actively talked about, discussed, and decided by that by that couple. That should they shouldn't just
Damien: Sure.
Josh: accept the traditional roles and customs wholesale. I'm like that's unnecessary. If you and your partner want to discuss like hey, do you wanna do the yard and I'll do the dishes this week? Or if they're do you like the housework better? If the man likes the housework better, the woman likes the outside work better, and they want to divide things that way, great. It is a different role than the tradition. But the marriage is still the box. The the way they navigate it different. There you go.
Damien: But you gotta present that. But you have but the reason why I'm saying you gotta present it is because you gotta think this idea that's gonna touch millions, if not billions of people. many of those people need the simple version. What is this? What
Josh: Hmm. Great.
Damien: do these people do? They may not be able to get to the whole abstract piece of it. They need to know what. do we do every day? How does this work? And that's that's
Josh: Yes. How does this work?
Damien: the part that I'm trying to think about. Like, if it has to be like yeah, people can choose. Yeah, you can do the dishes, I can do this. That's cool, but I just I'm like, what is leading us to lying? what is leading
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: to people having hidden lives in relationships?
Josh: Right?
Damien: What is leading to people killing their partners instead of being divorced?
Josh: Right.
Damien: Something else is there that has to be answered and it's not and it can't be answered within like who's and I'm I know I'm I'm bringing up that aspect like it's not about who did the dishes and who took out the trash. It's about what do we do in a relationship where someone has grown in a way that I didn't expect.
Josh: Mm.
Damien: What what do I do about that? What if I am not on board with that growth? What if that's
Josh: Right.
Damien: I'm not on board with the phase that they're in? What what do we do with that? And
Josh: Yes.
Damien: that's the type of stuff that I'm thinking of.
Josh: Right. And I definitely think there's room for having that real conversation to say, like, when people change in ways that we don't like, since we committed to that person, how do we navigate this change? How do we actively live and sit with this discomfort long enough to start saying this person is trying to accomplish some goal? They have some actual reason for their behavior. What is that reason? Is there a way to help them navigate it? How can I listen to them? How can I understand where they're coming from? Make them feel seen, actually empathize from what they're going through, and then say, is there a way to get your needs met that actively aligns with any of the things that we are doing? Is there a way I can can support you in way to do that? And I think that is the discussion that doesn't happen enough.
Damien: Man, I agree, man. I agree with everything you said. But what I say is that from an individual standpoint, that takes an extraordinary person.
Josh: Yes.
Damien: From a collective standpoint, it's gonna take an extraordinary person to present the idea. But once you create that space to where what you just said is normal and what to to the to put it to the point where c society perceives that as normal. That's what I'm talking about because that that's the p that's the world creator. What you can get that idea that it's a I'm a meme or whatever, because that's what's like, it's the possible instead of that's the extraordinary. Right. That's all.
Josh: Yeah. And it's something to see.
Damien: So
Josh: So it's worth it's worth coming up with real solutions. It's worth looking at what solutions other people have and then finding pe ways to help people grow enough to be able to do that at earlier and earlier times. I'm like this is what parents do.
Damien: Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's what it's all about, man. Like, I could do certain things in my life today that
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: come easy to me. But then in my mind, I'm like, but I'm older. You know what I'm saying? So it it's cool to me, but I had to live a long time to get there to figure it out. Wouldn't it be cool
Josh: Yes.
Damien: to know all and do all this stuff when I was younger?
Josh: Yes. Yes. Ugh I can't tell you how much if I could go back in time and tell myself, like, this is the stuff you need to read these things.
Damien: Ha ha.
Josh: This is the framework you need to think about. This is the framework you need to know to think about how to look at this stage of life. This is what school is for. This is what work is for. This is what business is. This is what people
Damien: Mm.
Josh: are doing. This is this is your strength. This is your weakness. These are the questions you need to ask and confirm this for yourself. Anyway, there are so many things to do differently. I was talking to my dad the other day and he was like, my grandkids, they're just they're going to school now and it's you know, and they're gonna have to learn how to socialize. I'm like, Did you prepare them to so to be social? Did you try? You did not try with me, but with them. Was there any attempt made just to give them a general idea of how to be a normal human being? That they can't wander around expecting everyone to give them all the attention all the time, that sometimes they're gonna need to be quiet and so someone else can speak and someone else can go
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: first. You know, that would did we have these discussions in in detail with them? Did they practice any of these skills at home before you just sent them off into the world and were like, good luck? Be a good person like what does that mean? They're they're they're five. Anyway, I was just like I I mean it really is. It's I really see the differences in types of people and personalities when it comes to how people approach problem solving. Some people really are just
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: like just throw them in there and they'll just see it and then they'll then they'll figure it out. I don't think they will. If it doesn't if they have no framework to put it.
Damien: Right. Guidance.
Josh: It's gonna be it's asking them a lot to make their own framework to think in.
Damien: Yeah. what does Peterson say? It's like, yo, it's not what not to do, it's like what to do a little bit. It's give somebody
Josh: Yeah, you
Damien: you gotta give somebody some guidance because it's you don't
Josh: Yes.
Damien: even know the questions to ask sometimes. So that's the part.
Josh: Thank you. Discipline is not just punishment. It's actual correct guidance. Show them the way.
Damien: Yeah. Yeah man.
