J: he definitely sounds either sociopathic or seemed like the is really having a hard time adjusting. Needed some place to belong, some place to really feel like he mattered. And this is what ⁓ ended up.
Damien: Yeah, I mean, I guess for me, I think it's just unfortunate that it's something, has to be done about this, ⁓ not necessarily to fix it directly, but you know me, man, I'm always about changing the conversation. Like, I just think that there aren't lot of paths for people to. to develop, how can I say this? I think there are all paths for people to develop, but I think you gotta pick and choose from two limited buckets. That's kinda how I feel about it. And that's to me, because I just don't think that everybody should fall into. think everybody should have guidelines. Everybody should have some principles to life. But I don't think that they always should be religious principles. But I don't know you would find those non-religious principles to guide your life today. That's my thing.
J: Yeah, it's really hard. Unless you have ⁓ some very key mentors and really important influences. It's hard to make the case that other people are gonna find it organically.
Damien: Yeah, I mean, even if they, I think people are believing that they are finding it. I think that the options that they are presented with today are, from what I've seen, are pretty much trash for the most part. ⁓ But.
J: Pretty much trash. That's exactly right. Yeah.
Damien: I think it's just that work needs to continue somebody needs to continue to do it. I think people have done it in the past. You could call it poorly. You could say, don't know, I guess I'm not necessarily looking for an ending to the conversation. I just feel like I just want to contribute to it. That's all I look at. So ⁓
J: It's fair. Yeah, and you can always just say things that would've helped you growing up and things you would have wished you would have had. So that's always cool to point out, hm, some of these things are better than others, some of these things would have been more grounding, clear clarifying and, you know, helpful just to get you to a point where you could develop, meet some needs and, you know, develop some of your skills.
Damien: Yeah, that's absolutely what it is. that's how I, whenever I'm writing, that's how I envision it. I don't, I never want to be. naive about how I'm approaching life. Because I think a lot of people are naive. I actually might roll into the next point that I'm trying to like to bring up. But I think a lot of people were like, well, I'm doing it for others. I'm it for every, I'm being a servant to others and that's my goal and that's what drives me. And for me, it's like, no, ⁓ I'm it for ⁓ me a kid. And I'm I'm identifying with that of the world. And so if anybody is aligned with that and needed those things, then that's who I'm aligned with. I'm not actually doing it for the others. ⁓
J: Right. I'm not here to randomly see who's I'm not here to randomly spit into the wind or just speak into the ether and wish that these, you know magical others will surprisingly all kinds of benefits for things that I'm saying and doing. It's like, no, no, they're intentional specific people. Specifically ⁓ me as a kid and then those people who have those same values, same goals and same then it those people, those people should be benefiting from these things.
Damien: You And it's not that I don't wish they wouldn't be, it's just that I don't want to play the role of I know the other. Like I literally can't know the other. I can believe, I can experience it and all that, but I don't know it. You know what I'm saying? So, but.
J: Not at all. It's like mm There are a lot of people in the world. I I know myself. I was there for that part. These are the things that help that would have helped me. These are the things I'm talking to.
Damien: Right, right, exactly. That's exactly what I mean. So, interestingly enough for me, hopefully this works, man, because am fascinated with the leftists. That's my new thing, man. So, I don't know, you remember that talk that we kind of listened to?
J: What what differentiates a leftist from like a liberal? How do you how do you define left left?
Damien: I mean, I'm not going to do that, right? I'm not really saying that I'm differentiating the leftist from a liberal. I will let that person do the differentiation. Like, cause you know, caught, I brought up that Catherine Lou clipped when she was on with your Ron Brook. And she gave her definition of difference between a leftist and liberal, which I am aligned with her many ways.
J: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Damien: And that's crazy for me to say. ⁓ But wanted to bring up her talk, well, a part of this thing that she has on the internet and kind of go through it because. ⁓
J: I like it. Yeah, yeah.
Damien: Yeah, I never would have thought of them like, yeah, I'm in line with the leftist on some things. So that's what I wanted to kind of just go through that. That's cool.
J: Nice, let's check it out.
Damien Dubose: I think man, so it was a couple things man I wanted to talk about really, ⁓ cause it's like a lot, well not a lot but it's just, one thing that's super interesting is this right here. Another part is like I'm pretty sure, I'm almost 98 % sure you're not following, well you weren't following the Julio Fulio murder case.
J: Zero things, yeah. What's going on there?
Damien Dubose: basically it was a, do you even know who Julio Fulio was?
J: No, no, who's that?
Damien Dubose: he was a rapper in Florida and he got killed. it something the, wasn't necessarily about the trial. that really did it for me, but So pretty much it's like this. I'll give you a little bit of background. I think I might've told you this before. For a long time, like in Jacksonville, they just had these rap wars. So people would kill each other and then rap about it. was a thing. We'll shoot at each other and rap about it. Kinda crazy to me, but I think it's probably pretty much crazy to everybody. So was like two blocks beefing with each other. So this kinda went on and Fulio would be like a troll. ⁓ They both trolling, they more or less like, I killed your people, be on your people, blah, blah, blah. And at some point in time, It's like a year and a half ago maybe at this point, two years ago four dudes and a girl got together and I guess plotted to kill them. So the first interesting thing about the whole plot is, well watching the trial, and I didn't really watch it, I'm just catching snippets of it here and there, is that they have footage from these people. they live in Jacksonville, and most of these, everybody in the story live, or is from Jacksonville. The murder occurred in Tampa. So I'm assuming it's like two hours away or something. From the time they packing up the car and leaving the house to when they get to Tampa. Like it's footage. They got cameras from the house when they packing up the cars. They got cameras from the first club where, so basically it's a spotter. One of the dudes, he just follow with the girl and just report on where the dude, the Julio was at throughout the whole night. So at each one of these clubs, It's camera footage that the police was able to obtain to say, yeah, that's him right there on the phone, across the street, out victim. Then when the shooting actually happens, his camera's on the hotel ⁓ and they it next to a Tesla, so a Tesla records ⁓ HD camera seven. ⁓ ⁓
J: Right, that's crazy.
Damien Dubose: Right, so it's footage, it's basically video footage of their whole to... ⁓ And and back to his, back to people's houses. Like, yeah, so it's just nuts.
J: whole crime play by play. That's insane. Open as shut. It's like so this is when you murdered up, this is where you were when you murdered up, this is how it happened. This is when you talked about it, this is when you were gone on your way. This is when you did it. We have you the whole time.
Damien Dubose: Right. Correct. Yeah, it's insane, but it also speaks to the nature of where we are in society with the cameras and the digital stuff. Like, might be able to get away with stuff, but it's like 50-50 if you're be on camera or not. It's not like...
J: That's insane.
Damien Dubose: 10, 90. Might even be 60, 40, you gonna be on camera somewhere. Somebody saw you doing something. But that's the one interesting part about it. the part that's more interesting to me is that there's four dudes, one girl. The girl already went to trial. I don't know, they postponed her.
J: Ha ha ha Yeah. Right.
Damien Dubose: I think she got found guilty of manslaughter and they postponed her sentencing. Then of the four of the dudes, they put the trials together ⁓ they all got convicted. And in Texas, mean in Florida, you get convicted of murder first degree. Like you're not coming home so all they do is have like a sentencing, I forgot what they call it. Basically they're like, are we gonna kill you or not? You know what saying? This is...
J: Right. Death penalty right now.
Damien Dubose: that's pretty much what it is. ⁓ this is a sidebar, when they do this, I forgot what call it. They go through process of what they say mitigating and aggregating factors to say if, or if not, we're gonna put the person to death. ⁓ And somehow the warden of the jail, came up and was like, yeah, you know, we got a lot of stuff we need done here. these boys can put in that sweat equity if you, if you put them in here, cause we got.
J: I'm just like it's just out in the open now. Just like so I mean, what about that slavery though? We we were gonna do other things, but like slavery. Could we could we have more of that?
Damien Dubose: You that's exactly what it sound like, right? But at the same time, ⁓ I even know how, can't, I don't know what to say about that. Basically that's what it sounds like. ⁓ But at this point, for me, don't really care. I mean, what you gonna do anyway? You in jail. You're going to be in jail forever. You're going to die in jail. It's the whole thing. So that's already settled. They just saying, debating now if they're gonna kill you or if they just let God sort it out, I guess.
J: Yes. Yes. I mean, are they gonna kill you or are they gonna enslave you? These are these are your choices now. Do you wanna live in slavery or do you wanna die immediately? What are your what what are we doing? Great.
Damien Dubose: Yeah,
J: that. ⁓ anyway, that's that's where I'm like, that doesn't sound so bad after that. I don't don't know how long I want to live as a slave. That doesn't sound fun at all.
Damien Dubose: Yeah, I mean, but here's the thing for me, am gonna put them in there and treat them like an orangutan and just be like, yo, you just gonna sit here, we gonna feed you and you not gonna do nothing? I can't envision that either. Like that doesn't make sense to me either. So you're gonna do some work. ⁓ I don't know else, you need to do some work at the end of the day.
J: Doesn't it Yes. As a human being. It work is ⁓ you know, that purpose gives you a reason to live.
Damien Dubose: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, you're going to have to do something. But I mean, that's not my... I don't even care about that part. The interesting part of me, I just gave you all of that to give you like some background information about the case. So one of these dudes...
J: Okay.
Damien Dubose: name is Sean Gathwright or something like that. Young dude, think he's mixed black and white. He was 18 when this went down. He's one of the shooters. The thing that never made sense, so I'm watching this trial because I was of following it from when it started, but I never really understood. First of all, the connection to the gang. I never really got that part, but somehow they figured out they were connected. But this one dude, like I couldn't understand, I could not understand his story. His never came together in the sense that, like he was like a missionary, he was going to like Africa ⁓ ⁓ and like doing work with his guidance counselor and started his own business at like two businesses or something when he was young. think of I mean, I'm thinking about like he's 18 when this happened. So this is a condensed amount of time. It's not like five, 10 years. This can only be like three to four years that he's doing all of this stuff. and thinking like
J: Right.
Damien Dubose: As I'm hearing his story and the people talking about him and being his character witnesses and I'm like... What, I'm thinking, what is this? ⁓ not up. It's not adding up at all for me. And the only that I could come to was that he wanted to be a part of something. And that's the only conclusion that I could actually come to. And I think for it to be what it became, he didn't care what that. something was. It was just to be a part of something. Because he out here like this is a they got rifles, know, saying the guns they addressed in black, they come in. This is straight like SWAT team type with a how they came. And, and I'm thinking
J: Right.
Damien Dubose: I just couldn't wrap my head around it, man. And you know me, I'm gonna try to always bring it back to a certain place. we gotta be ⁓ at helping people develop themselves. Now, it could be a lot of other factors to it. Don't get me wrong, they say his father was abusive, you know, but at the same time. My was abusive. He lived around different places. He lived in California, lived in Alabama, he lived in Florida. He was overseas. He was like an uncle, fun with his sister. They can't really figure out how it happened. And I'm thinking like... Something is off to me about this. ⁓ I can't, I can't care. It's just not adding up, man. how do you go to, like I will say this, when he gave his, so basically he gave an apology. He made a statement for himself, you know, just when he basically pleading for his life. It's pretty much what it sounds.
J: Yeah, because it doesn't add up.
Damien: I actually gotta give you a little background on this because I skipped into the middle of it. she has an interest in how people are presenting their suffering publicly it's pretty much differentiates her from what she calls liberal
Damien Dubose: It seems super disingenuous to me. Like, he's in there like, yeah, you know, I think everybody life has a purpose and God has really touched my life and I think God can work through me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, in my mind, as I'm hearing him, and this is just all speculation, but I'm like, this is, this is a, what do they call them?
Damien: Here's my experience, here's my suffering and I'm tuned into the suffering and the suffering of people and all that stuff. So that's something, and trauma, trauma and suffering. Here's my trauma, here's my baggage, blah, blah, blah. ⁓ That's what was interested in ⁓ and ⁓ what discussed at the beginning of this video.
Damien Dubose: psychopath
J: All right, fair enough.
Damien: So I'll stop it right there, right? Cause I think that's fascinating to me in the sense that when she talks about the marble ization of an individuality, like it's this through line. For me, the way that I understand that is for whatever reason people try to explain without acknowledging the constraints that you only understand from your perspective. And so. when you try to pretend like that's not true, then you kind of get to this place where she's in a similar place. I can't say it's the same place where you just are like.
J: That's fair. has a lot of craziness going on and
Damien Dubose: So.
Damien: you bypass the whole idea that you have, it's a constraint by nature. You have a certain perspective. There's an individual, you exist as an individual and you can't bypass that. You can't, know, ascend to this.
J: Right. There's no such thing as absolute objectivity. Everybody has a bias, everybody has a perspective. You can't get out of it.
Damien: Right, but I think sometimes, and I think she may be alluding to this, but I'm not sure. But people think that they ascend to this higher perspective that's beyond themselves, right? And I think a lot of times people might identify that with a spirituality in a sense where they think, well, there's me and that they're the things that are bigger than me, as if they are not the people who are thinking of the thing.
J: Right.
Damien: that they think is bigger than them. know what I'm saying? ⁓
J: Right. It's like this includes more than me. I'm like, it does. And in that sense, you can say, Look, I have expanded. I've done the meta thinking. I'm thinking about thinking. I'm including more than just my perspective. I'm like, Yes. But you're still speaking from it from your perspective. This is not and that that part never goes away. You're always that part. And that's fine because that's how human beings work. But stop pretending like it's not there. Like that's a level of
Damien: Exactly. You
J: blindness that's unnecessary. You don't need to have that level of confusion.
Damien: Yeah, I think there's different levels of that confusion in the sense that There are people who are completely oblivious about their own personal experience. And there are people who kind of like just ignore it and only bring it up in certain parts of their lives. So, yeah, I just wanted to add that little part.
J: That's fair.
Damien: I mean we can continue unless you got anything else. I gotta stop real quick, because she's making a lot of good points in my opinion, but she keeps continuing on and going. And I don't wanna kind of like, I wanna speak to a couple of things that she was saying. And this, It's interesting to me that she does not subscribe to what I would call a collective personality, She doesn't believe that you can ⁓ you can know the other. She doesn't believe in this concrete view of even when she talks about the confessions for, I guess what was that? Augustine, And so she like, well, there's no in that internal experience, ⁓ I'm not necessarily so familiar with Augustine, to me, and my understanding of the development of... psychology or understanding of personal experience, it ⁓ makes sense me that these things that may be normal now, people didn't necessarily recognize always throughout all of history to say, ⁓ you have a personal experience. or you there's this thing called shame, because there are people who don't believe in shame and guilt. They're just kind of like
J: Right.
Damien: these things that just happen or these flashes in their life that they kind of try to ignore or something like that, I just found that to be interesting.
J: Yeah, it's just funny. Denial is real. I just think I think she I think it's humorous where people try to ⁓ look at the world in a way without morality, they ⁓ use that's not moral, but they live in a way that is moral, and it's always f funny to see people try to navigate the the two. And I think she really is putting out a huge part where a lot of ⁓ People, least currently, haven't really developed to a point where they're so secure in themselves that they've been able to have enough self esteem and general identity where they can ⁓ form all that on their own and hold hold integrity ⁓ in own values, their own ⁓ ideas having that constant affirmation from other people. Like she's using the word visibility, and I'm like, okay, yeah, visibility's good. She's like, Yeah, I feel seen. I'm like But not only seen, they feel approved. They feel approved. They want they want approval. They want they don't want to just they don't want to have other people just reflect back to them. They do want that too, but they want the reflection to come back with positive, positive emotions, positive affirmations, actual approval of who they are, what they think, what they're doing. They want to know that they're both right as people and right in what they're doing and saying enough to where other people still like them.
Damien: Right. Absolutely. And I think for me another interesting piece about that is The mentality that she talks about, she says it's an instrumental mentality. And I can go back to figure out the exact words that she used. But the way that I hear it and receive it is like... She's talking about a collective mentality in my opinion. When she's talking about that absence of self that, because ⁓ already some history about how she feels about the difference between a liberal and a leftist. when she says liberal, it also sounds like a conservative to me. They really sound like the same thing in the sense that they're not. differentiating themselves from the world. That's kind of like what I gather from it. Yes, I'm not gonna worry about The world moves better when we do this. So let's just do the thing that makes the world better without reference to individuals. And. That's a ridiculous take to me, but people do this often,
J: All the time. Yes.
Damien: I feel like, wow, ⁓ think that she understands and that's what's fascinating to me about her, even as a leftist. I love part.
J: Nice. Yeah, I definitely think she's trying to ⁓ make some sense of it and trying to put it together. I do think some of her definitions mix, but I think she's ⁓ at least speaking s speaking to what she sees. So I like that. She's trying to be as honest honest as possible.
Damien: Yeah, true. me kick it off again. that was a lot. So I just wanted to cut it just to see if you had anything that you wanted to add on that part.
J: Mm. has lot to say. And she had a lot of premises that I think were baseless. ⁓ But she just a trend and and and I appreciate the fact that she's like, ⁓ look, there is a trend of there being a lot of ⁓ differences between the right and the left, and a lot of disagreement between people who have things versus people who don't have things, and that's ⁓ those those are real. ⁓ divisions and they have real ⁓ issues. I mean the sense I there are I hear where she's coming from. I'm like, all right, yes, those are real differences and those two sides are are at at at at war. There's lots of actual conflict going on.
Damien: Yeah, I mean, but when I hear her argument, I didn't really hear her argument for elites versus the worker. I hear her argument as the war between two different kinds of elites. That's, well, I even know if I would call them elites, Because...
J: I mean sure.
Damien: I don't know what I call Trump an elite. I don't think I would call him an elite. I'm not necessarily, I'm not. You said so, you said you would.
J: Think so. Yeah, I mean I don't think he f fits into the highest form of ⁓ in intellectual elites, but I would think that he qualifies just based on class itself. I mean, he has enough money to be in the point zero one percent. I'm like, when they're when they talk about being the highest of the highest, I'm like, he qualifies. He's done that. He went to Wharton. He's he did the things.
Damien: And see, I guess if I would look at elite as a number, then that'd be one thing. But I'm not really thinking of elite as a number, or dollar amount of wealth. I'm thinking. guess so. For this argument, yes, I'll accept that, right? But I think what she's speaking to is the difference in... It's like a culture difference between these two kinds of people. It's like the...
J: Yeah.
Damien: Educated elite, Harvard elite, like she's saying. And there's just the, hey, I just worked at this business for a long time and made a lot of money type of hard work. Oh, I don't even wanna say hard work. It's not that I'm saying hard work, it's just the. scrappy, the doer mentality type. the ethical, no, not ethical, the intellectual elite and then the dual, the practical elite. That's kind of like what the differentiation I'm seeing from what she's saying. And I think the...
J: Yeah, right.
Damien: I think that she's just using, just like I do, using these methods of explaining things as tools. Because for me, I do think there's something there. This is why I'm kind of following along with what she's saying. You know me, I use the Jungian, I use the Keegan, I use from, I use or rand. As tools because have systems and it lets me create some kind of common language to use with somebody to say, hey, here's a thing. And I don't really want to come up with a new way to say the same thing again, like a lot of people tend to do. Like, hey, I invented this new thing. No, you didn't. You just explained the same thing in your way. And it's really not new. But Tameesi's using them ⁓ tools.
J: Just subscribe to your way.
Damien: And it's like the same patterns though. It's the same patterns of, just this concretistic way of approaching life or a way of just explaining some of these majorities that, in groups that we see in society, these orientations toward the world. So that was one other part that I just, ⁓ I forgot she had said that, cause I don't think you call it any, I haven't really put out any of my new stuff. I'm still working on a video on trying to tie these things together with more of a developmental evolutionary or developmental psychology. And when she talks about. the birth of a person coming from a child. even, you probably remember. remember that book. Escape from freedom that I was talking about with Fromm it's the same pattern. It's the same thing as far as, and I think Jung talks about this as well. It's the whole idea of being and living as a subject. The world is the subject, right? And as you go get older, go through these Keegan says it too, these subject object shifts to where is those like, ⁓ I can make. decisions about the world. I am not the world, the world is not me. I can make decisions about things, those things are objects. And as you take these steps up in your development, right, you're differentiating. And differentiation is equivalent to individuation in Jung's right? And so you're individuating from that piece, that... ⁓
J: Exactly. Yes, differentiation. Yeah.
Damien: motherly bond, ⁓ I experienced the world is a subject to our experience, the world is object. And that growth people don't always take full track. They hang on that is or world is a subject thing, because they haven't differentiated themselves from the world.
J: Mm-hmm. There you go.
Damien: Right. So I just found that part, that part of a fascinating.
J: Yeah, it's fascinating. It's always a process of development and no one's gonna force you to do it. So yeah, let's check it out.
Damien: Cool, cool. but to me that's perfect, is why I like this person,
J: That's mean, that's just a mischaracterization. Like I it's it's it's a fine generalization. Abuse does exist. People are using their power poorly. There are people out there who are doing it blatantly, bluntly, openly, and then there are people who are doing it in a much more subtle way. I'm like, sure, yes, you can abuse power lots of ways. And people who are being abused, they know it. They can't do anything about it, because that's how systems work. But yes, they they they do get to participate in meaning they do get to realize like, ⁓ this isn't working out for me. This isn't working for me at all. It's almost like I don't have power in the system. Nope. No, you don't.
Damien: Yes, right. So. I am aligned her even though I don't agree with her. the thing that I think differentiates me from her perspective, and I don't know how we're gonna get there, and I don't think that we get there in this conversation. She takes the perspective, and this is one thing I would like to help people with, the perspective that there's no... There's no responsibility for people for making decisions. this is what differentiates people in my mind. You can say that there's a, ⁓ Trump crowd, the Trump crowd that she's talking about, the Nietzschean and Iran libertarian, there's an assumption that, hey, you're supposed to get yours, I got mine. Right? And other people,
J: Mm-hmm.
Damien: that she's talking about the are like, you should get yours. I'm really, really trying to help you get yours. I don't, you know, I really, really care, but I don't, maybe I might take a little money here and take a little money there. To me, that you can see that in society. But I think to me, She takes the position that, to me who takes the position of worker versus elite, they're not really recognizing that there must be some assumption of autonomy, some assumption of agency here. this what makes me, even though like the way she's characterizing Iran and Donald Trump or whatever that group is that she's talking about, I am aligned that group in the sense that, Yes, it's your damn responsibility. If I put out a product and it's not valuable to you, don't pay for it. That's how I know that this is not good. This is how I know I wasted my money on my investment. You know what saying? But she's like, well, people know that they're being taken advantage of. And it's like, yeah, but they need people who solve problems. And as analytical and diagnostic she may be,
J: Mm-hmm. Right. Feedback.
Damien: People like her don't solve problems in my opinion. They're not problem solvers. They don't solution.
J: Well she's not actually solving this problem. She's not even understanding this problem. She's she's definitely not solving it. It's not even on her list of things to do today.
Damien: ⁓ that to me ⁓ Those, and I'm very much generalizing here, but people who talk like this, they don't assume that there's a responsibility from the person as an agent their interactions with corporations and their interactions with people with money. They just assume that, ⁓ that person is insignificant. They really don't matter. You matter, it just may not, ⁓ there's a magnitude, as long as the magnitude is like equal to the size of your life, what the hell does it matter? You know what I'm saying?
J: Exactly. There you go. You gotta shrink your scale and you'll be fine. Like this is my scope. It matters right here. But in the in the grand scheme of things of all of human history, no, no course doesn't matter.
Damien: So. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. But that's what I was trying to say when I'm in line with her, but I don't agree with her.
J: Right, right. She's really just talking about power dynamics. She really is just saying, like, hey, look, people on the right can be really strong and authoritarian and they can say, ⁓ I got mine, you get yours. Or people on the left can be like, Hey, w want us all to get there together, but while we're gonna get there, we're gonna need everybody's stuff. Give me give me your stuff and I'm gonna make decisions for you because I'm smarter than you, and then that's gonna help us get there. So like the person in the middle is like, I'm either getting my stuff taken by ⁓
Damien: Right.
J: This person so they can help me, or by this other person who says, not gonna I'm not gonna allow you to have other things because I'm gonna get it myself. So I'm either being out competed on one side or being actively ⁓ convinced to ⁓ give my stuff away from on the other side. I'm like, Yeah, people are after your stuff. That does exist. There is real competition in real in life, and people with power are are taking it. They are taking the stuff.
Damien: You Yes. Yes.
J: They have power. That is what they're using their power for. And so yes, some people are in the middle in the sense of being actively disenfranchised and being taken advantage of. Not all power is being used that way, but a lot is.
Damien: But I mean, the one pushback I would give to you, Josh, is that it's not my job to make a decision and figure out what decision you should make as well. Like, when I try to take your stuff, you're supposed to say, no, this is the amount of the stuff that you can have for the thing that you're offering. That's your job.
J: There we go. Negotiation.
Damien: Yeah. that if I would have used this conversation to figure out what's the difference between me and that person, that's the differentiation between me and that left perspective. Get a little bit more real quick. So that's exactly what you just said to me, Josh. What she just said is exactly what you just said.
J: Yep. Yeah, I mean I think I think that lines up. Yeah, these are some clear power dynamics. She is just like, hey, this is how this is working and people don't like it. Like it is working this way and people hate it. Huh. So yeah, we agree. Those I think those those things line up right there.
Damien: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, man. I think I was gonna stop it right there, right? But I thought that was, that's an interesting conversation at the end. The one thing I took from her, like the last thing she said. The idea that people who went to school. are the representatives of a meritocracy. Like I don't, I don't even believe in this meritocracy thing necessarily, but. Going to school has nothing to do with merit to me. You went to school, you know, but you have to do the things. Like I know a lot of people go to school and they make a lot of money and I get that part, but you have to do things. That's the merit is in doing things and having...
J: Yeah.
Damien: accomplishments. That's the merit. And is an accomplishment, don't get me wrong. It could be part of it. You say what?
J: Right. Practically, yeah. yes, but that's when she's referring to it, she's referring it to the old way of of to where that's not that. But I hear what you're saying because you're thinking literally, which is the real answer.
Damien: Yeah, and also, you say that, it becomes clear to me that this whole everybody goes to college thing was not always a thing neither, right? College was reserved for people who had some sort of promise, right? So.
J: Right. And it anyway, it it s it significantly changed from that 'cause because it became a business and they stopped doing all the skills focus pointing of like, all right, let's make sure we have jobs for these people who are graduating. ⁓ make sure the people who who hiring, let's teach people those skills so they can actually have those things. And when it when that when that got de decoupled from When college stopped being associated with business, then we started getting a lot more college is the business. And now everybody has to have a degree. Everyone. We're gonna market to everyone. Everyone gets gets a education now.
Damien: Everyone gets an education, but education in and of itself. The education has to pay off. Like people don't really make do that part of it. ⁓ If you go to college and you paid more for a degree than you're actually going to make back on it, that's not a great investment. That's not a smart decision.
J: No. Right. That's not an investment. That's that's an actual liability. You you actively gave away money so that you could pay more money. It's a bad choice. It's a bad risk to reward. You should not do it. But it is where we are now and it's super frustrating where that's not even brought up when they're like in high school and like, ⁓ what do you want to be when you grow up? It's like, not poor. I don't want to be in debt. Is that is that an option?
Damien: you You
J: Let's have one of those. I'm already poor. I'm starting behind April. I don't wanna be poorer. It's crazy.
Damien: Right, right, good. But people get into these. It's true, man, but there becomes this keeping up with the Joneses aspect of going to college too. There's this thing of, white people go to college. I mean, I heard people make this argument where people say, because I don't necessarily advise that all kids go to college just universally or unilaterally, whatever that, I advise that. That does not make sense to me. But some people are like, their is simply, it's something simple like white people go to college and so therefore you know college is important and so therefore you should go to college or your kids should go to college. It's like, you could literally get training in a job that nobody wants to do, make a lot of money and learn the stuff online in your free time while you're retired, damn it. ⁓
J: Yes. Right. Yeah. Right. I mean if learning is your goal, no one is stopping you from learning. The library is open, the information is free, Google exists. So there's no reason for you not to learn. But when people pretend like if I just have a degree, all will be fine. I'm like, that is not how this works. I agree that it could have worked that way at some point in time, but wasn't it wasn't in my lifetime, wasn't in my parents' lifetime. So
Damien: You
J: You know, I I want kids to have a much clearer idea. Like you need to be useful to somebody. You need to understand how business works. You need to learn that early as you can. You need to start getting as many of those business skills as you can growing up instead of waiting for college to give it to you because people who have those skills aren't in college. That's not how college works. That's not what it is for. It would be great if it was, but that's not how it actually works. But it just interests me back in the day that, you know, D Dr. Carl Jung and all the rest of these people were so mad at the ⁓ and they're like, ⁓ these people who just have institutionalized power and ridiculous wealth are abusing their power and they're doing terrible things. And pretending their ⁓ social caste merit and they're using that idea and they're like, ⁓ this meritocracy and like ⁓ education is be the same. They can go to a school ⁓ That has all the right social classes in it and has all the ⁓ accolades. And because, you know, everybody thinks it it ⁓ is the best, just by being associated with the school, you can have the same kind of social and that carte blanche ⁓ approach to life to where you can just doesn't matter if you're good or if you're bad or if you have a skill or don't have a skill, long as you have the network, you can just use that as your merit, and that's a new meritocracy. I'm like, hmm. I never thought of using that word that way. Okay. That was that is a that is a interesting historical ⁓ reference. didn't know.
Damien: Yeah, it's definitely, me that was a misuse of the word meritocracy ⁓ maybe she was just explaining how she thinks it works. ⁓
J: Yes. You should not use the word merit. Like, that's not how merit works at all. None of that has related to any of the things. I understand why people were angry about it. Okay. That's some that's a that's a clearer thing. 'Cause I've had that argument with someone before and they're just like, You don't understand meritocracy or where it comes from and you think ⁓ meritocracy is okay and you're part of the problem. I'm like, I mean
Damien: You
J: You just said that doing things is wrong, so I don't understand how that's possible that I could be part of the problem. I think we have different viewpoints altogether, but you can't explain yours and I don't know what you're trying to say. You you just told me that doing th that doing the right thing is wrong. So I don't have anything else to say. I don't know where we go from there from here. This is a strange conversation.
Damien: I look, I think many things can be understood if we stop separating them and combining them. From the standpoint of going to school to become someone who can be productive is a full motion. But just because I went to school didn't give me merit. mean merit.
J: Right?
Damien: But if I went to school enable me to produce more, then that gets me both sides of the stick. So I think ⁓ terms of the stick, everybody wants to grab an end of the stick. We need to start picking up the stick. We need to see the full range of the stick.
J: Right. Right. Yes. Yes. It's gotta be both intent and something actual. You gotta literally get there.
Damien: Right, and why we, that's why intellectuals are trash. Well, let me, me, they can be, because there's.
J: They can be. That that's why there are some intellectuals who are
Damien: said, I saw said a clip when he talked about this. I think this is knowledge. they don't have to pay for their ideas being wrong. In business, you have to pay for your ⁓ idea being wrong. You can say the most thing in a university as an intellectual.
J: Mm-hmm.
Damien: And it doesn't look at Abraham X. Kim. Actually, the more ridiculous things that you say, the more money you may be able to make because there's somebody wants to believe it. You know what saying? So it's just ridiculous, man.
J: There you go. Yes. They're like, I've exposed to something new and therefore it's valuable. I'm like, I don't know if it is valuable. Have we used it for something? What is it valuable for? To who is it valuable? I don't know if we can just say that just ⁓ on the on its face.
Damien: Hahaha man
J: Yeah, right. Yeah. People just do it. It's a mistake.
Damien: Yeah, I mean, I guess for me, I think it's just unfortunate that it's something, has to be done about this, ⁓ not necessarily to fix it directly, but you know me, man, I'm always about changing the conversation. Like, I just think that there aren't lot of paths for people to. to develop, how can I say this? I think there are all paths for people to develop, but I think you gotta pick and choose from two limited buckets. That's kinda how I feel about it. And that's to me, because I just don't think that everybody should fall into. think everybody should have guidelines. Everybody should have some principles to life. But I don't think that they always should be religious principles. But I don't know you would find those non-religious principles to guide your life today. That's my thing.
J: Yeah, it's really hard. Unless you have ⁓ some very key mentors and really important influences. It's hard to make the case that other people are gonna find it organically.
Damien: Yeah, I mean, even if they, I think people are believing that they are finding it. I think that the options that they are presented with today are, from what I've seen, are pretty much trash for the most part. ⁓ But.
J: Pretty much trash. That's exactly right. Yeah.
Damien: I think it's just that work needs to continue somebody needs to continue to do it. I think people have done it in the past. You could call it poorly. You could say, don't know, I guess I'm not necessarily looking for an ending to the conversation. I just feel like I just want to contribute to it. That's all I look at. So ⁓
J: It's fair. Yeah, and you can always just say things that would've helped you growing up and things you would have wished you would have had. So that's always cool to point out, hm, some of these things are better than others, some of these things would have been more grounding, clear clarifying and, you know, helpful just to get you to a point where you could develop, meet some needs and, you know, develop some of your skills.
Damien: Yeah, that's absolutely what it is. that's how I, whenever I'm writing, that's how I envision it. I don't, I never want to be. naive about how I'm approaching life. Because I think a lot of people are naive. I actually might roll into the next point that I'm trying to like to bring up. But I think a lot of people were like, well, I'm doing it for others. I'm it for every, I'm being a servant to others and that's my goal and that's what drives me. And for me, it's like, no, ⁓ I'm it for ⁓ me a kid. And I'm I'm identifying with that of the world. And so if anybody is aligned with that and needed those things, then that's who I'm aligned with. I'm not actually doing it for the others. ⁓
J: Right. I'm not here to randomly see who's I'm not here to randomly spit into the wind or just speak into the ether and wish that these, you know magical others will surprisingly all kinds of benefits for things that I'm saying and doing. It's like, no, no, they're intentional specific people. Specifically ⁓ me as a kid and then those people who have those same values, same goals and same then it those people, those people should be benefiting from these things.
Damien: You And it's not that I don't wish they wouldn't be, it's just that I don't want to play the role of I know the other. Like I literally can't know the other. I can believe, I can experience it and all that, but I don't know it. You know what I'm saying? So, but.
J: Not at all. It's like mm There are a lot of people in the world. I I know myself. I was there for that part. These are the things that help that would have helped me. These are the things I'm talking to.
Damien: Right, right, exactly. That's exactly what I mean. So, interestingly enough for me, hopefully this works, man, because am fascinated with the leftists. That's my new thing, man. So, I don't know, you remember that talk that we kind of listened to?
J: What what differentiates a leftist from like a liberal? How do you how do you define left left?
Damien: I mean, I'm not going to do that, right? I'm not really saying that I'm differentiating the leftist from a liberal. I will let that person do the differentiation. Like, cause you know, caught, I brought up that Catherine Lou clipped when she was on with your Ron Brook. And she gave her definition of difference between a leftist and liberal, which I am aligned with her many ways.
J: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Damien: And that's crazy for me to say. ⁓ But wanted to bring up her talk, well, a part of this thing that she has on the internet and kind of go through it because. ⁓
J: I like it. Yeah, yeah.
Damien: Yeah, I never would have thought of them like, yeah, I'm in line with the leftist on some things. So that's what I wanted to kind of just go through that. That's cool.
J: Nice, let's check it out.
Damien Dubose: I think man, so it was a couple things man I wanted to talk about really, ⁓ cause it's like a lot, well not a lot but it's just, one thing that's super interesting is this right here. Another part is like I'm pretty sure, I'm almost 98 % sure you're not following, well you weren't following the Julio Fulio murder case.
J: Zero things, yeah. What's going on there?
Damien Dubose: basically it was a, do you even know who Julio Fulio was?
J: No, no, who's that?
Damien Dubose: he was a rapper in Florida and he got killed. it something the, wasn't necessarily about the trial. that really did it for me, but So pretty much it's like this. I'll give you a little bit of background. I think I might've told you this before. For a long time, like in Jacksonville, they just had these rap wars. So people would kill each other and then rap about it. was a thing. We'll shoot at each other and rap about it. Kinda crazy to me, but I think it's probably pretty much crazy to everybody. So was like two blocks beefing with each other. So this kinda went on and Fulio would be like a troll. ⁓ They both trolling, they more or less like, I killed your people, be on your people, blah, blah, blah. And at some point in time, It's like a year and a half ago maybe at this point, two years ago four dudes and a girl got together and I guess plotted to kill them. So the first interesting thing about the whole plot is, well watching the trial, and I didn't really watch it, I'm just catching snippets of it here and there, is that they have footage from these people. they live in Jacksonville, and most of these, everybody in the story live, or is from Jacksonville. The murder occurred in Tampa. So I'm assuming it's like two hours away or something. From the time they packing up the car and leaving the house to when they get to Tampa. Like it's footage. They got cameras from the house when they packing up the cars. They got cameras from the first club where, so basically it's a spotter. One of the dudes, he just follow with the girl and just report on where the dude, the Julio was at throughout the whole night. So at each one of these clubs, It's camera footage that the police was able to obtain to say, yeah, that's him right there on the phone, across the street, out victim. Then when the shooting actually happens, his camera's on the hotel ⁓ and they it next to a Tesla, so a Tesla records ⁓ HD camera seven. ⁓ ⁓
J: Right, that's crazy.
Damien Dubose: Right, so it's footage, it's basically video footage of their whole to... ⁓ And and back to his, back to people's houses. Like, yeah, so it's just nuts.
J: whole crime play by play. That's insane. Open as shut. It's like so this is when you murdered up, this is where you were when you murdered up, this is how it happened. This is when you talked about it, this is when you were gone on your way. This is when you did it. We have you the whole time.
Damien Dubose: Right. Correct. Yeah, it's insane, but it also speaks to the nature of where we are in society with the cameras and the digital stuff. Like, might be able to get away with stuff, but it's like 50-50 if you're be on camera or not. It's not like...
J: That's insane.
Damien Dubose: 10, 90. Might even be 60, 40, you gonna be on camera somewhere. Somebody saw you doing something. But that's the one interesting part about it. the part that's more interesting to me is that there's four dudes, one girl. The girl already went to trial. I don't know, they postponed her.
J: Ha ha ha Yeah. Right.
Damien Dubose: I think she got found guilty of manslaughter and they postponed her sentencing. Then of the four of the dudes, they put the trials together ⁓ they all got convicted. And in Texas, mean in Florida, you get convicted of murder first degree. Like you're not coming home so all they do is have like a sentencing, I forgot what they call it. Basically they're like, are we gonna kill you or not? You know what saying? This is...
J: Right. Death penalty right now.
Damien Dubose: that's pretty much what it is. ⁓ this is a sidebar, when they do this, I forgot what call it. They go through process of what they say mitigating and aggregating factors to say if, or if not, we're gonna put the person to death. ⁓ And somehow the warden of the jail, came up and was like, yeah, you know, we got a lot of stuff we need done here. these boys can put in that sweat equity if you, if you put them in here, cause we got.
J: I'm just like it's just out in the open now. Just like so I mean, what about that slavery though? We we were gonna do other things, but like slavery. Could we could we have more of that?
Damien Dubose: You that's exactly what it sound like, right? But at the same time, ⁓ I even know how, can't, I don't know what to say about that. Basically that's what it sounds like. ⁓ But at this point, for me, don't really care. I mean, what you gonna do anyway? You in jail. You're going to be in jail forever. You're going to die in jail. It's the whole thing. So that's already settled. They just saying, debating now if they're gonna kill you or if they just let God sort it out, I guess.
J: Yes. Yes. I mean, are they gonna kill you or are they gonna enslave you? These are these are your choices now. Do you wanna live in slavery or do you wanna die immediately? What are your what what are we doing? Great.
Damien Dubose: Yeah,
J: that. ⁓ anyway, that's that's where I'm like, that doesn't sound so bad after that. I don't don't know how long I want to live as a slave. That doesn't sound fun at all.
Damien Dubose: Yeah, I mean, but here's the thing for me, am gonna put them in there and treat them like an orangutan and just be like, yo, you just gonna sit here, we gonna feed you and you not gonna do nothing? I can't envision that either. Like that doesn't make sense to me either. So you're gonna do some work. ⁓ I don't know else, you need to do some work at the end of the day.
J: Doesn't it Yes. As a human being. It work is ⁓ you know, that purpose gives you a reason to live.
Damien Dubose: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, you're going to have to do something. But I mean, that's not my... I don't even care about that part. The interesting part of me, I just gave you all of that to give you like some background information about the case. So one of these dudes...
J: Okay.
Damien Dubose: name is Sean Gathwright or something like that. Young dude, think he's mixed black and white. He was 18 when this went down. He's one of the shooters. The thing that never made sense, so I'm watching this trial because I was of following it from when it started, but I never really understood. First of all, the connection to the gang. I never really got that part, but somehow they figured out they were connected. But this one dude, like I couldn't understand, I could not understand his story. His never came together in the sense that, like he was like a missionary, he was going to like Africa ⁓ ⁓ and like doing work with his guidance counselor and started his own business at like two businesses or something when he was young. think of I mean, I'm thinking about like he's 18 when this happened. So this is a condensed amount of time. It's not like five, 10 years. This can only be like three to four years that he's doing all of this stuff. and thinking like
J: Right.
Damien Dubose: As I'm hearing his story and the people talking about him and being his character witnesses and I'm like... What, I'm thinking, what is this? ⁓ not up. It's not adding up at all for me. And the only that I could come to was that he wanted to be a part of something. And that's the only conclusion that I could actually come to. And I think for it to be what it became, he didn't care what that. something was. It was just to be a part of something. Because he out here like this is a they got rifles, know, saying the guns they addressed in black, they come in. This is straight like SWAT team type with a how they came. And, and I'm thinking
J: Right.
Damien Dubose: I just couldn't wrap my head around it, man. And you know me, I'm gonna try to always bring it back to a certain place. we gotta be ⁓ at helping people develop themselves. Now, it could be a lot of other factors to it. Don't get me wrong, they say his father was abusive, you know, but at the same time. My was abusive. He lived around different places. He lived in California, lived in Alabama, he lived in Florida. He was overseas. He was like an uncle, fun with his sister. They can't really figure out how it happened. And I'm thinking like... Something is off to me about this. ⁓ I can't, I can't care. It's just not adding up, man. how do you go to, like I will say this, when he gave his, so basically he gave an apology. He made a statement for himself, you know, just when he basically pleading for his life. It's pretty much what it sounds.
J: Yeah, because it doesn't add up.
Damien: I actually gotta give you a little background on this because I skipped into the middle of it. she has an interest in how people are presenting their suffering publicly it's pretty much differentiates her from what she calls liberal
Damien Dubose: It seems super disingenuous to me. Like, he's in there like, yeah, you know, I think everybody life has a purpose and God has really touched my life and I think God can work through me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, in my mind, as I'm hearing him, and this is just all speculation, but I'm like, this is, this is a, what do they call them?
Damien: Here's my experience, here's my suffering and I'm tuned into the suffering and the suffering of people and all that stuff. So that's something, and trauma, trauma and suffering. Here's my trauma, here's my baggage, blah, blah, blah. ⁓ That's what was interested in ⁓ and ⁓ what discussed at the beginning of this video.
Damien Dubose: psychopath
J: All right, fair enough.
Damien: So I'll stop it right there, right? Cause I think that's fascinating to me in the sense that when she talks about the marble ization of an individuality, like it's this through line. For me, the way that I understand that is for whatever reason people try to explain without acknowledging the constraints that you only understand from your perspective. And so. when you try to pretend like that's not true, then you kind of get to this place where she's in a similar place. I can't say it's the same place where you just are like.
J: That's fair. has a lot of craziness going on and
Damien Dubose: So.
Damien: you bypass the whole idea that you have, it's a constraint by nature. You have a certain perspective. There's an individual, you exist as an individual and you can't bypass that. You can't, know, ascend to this.
J: Right. There's no such thing as absolute objectivity. Everybody has a bias, everybody has a perspective. You can't get out of it.
Damien: Right, but I think sometimes, and I think she may be alluding to this, but I'm not sure. But people think that they ascend to this higher perspective that's beyond themselves, right? And I think a lot of times people might identify that with a spirituality in a sense where they think, well, there's me and that they're the things that are bigger than me, as if they are not the people who are thinking of the thing.
J: Right.
Damien: that they think is bigger than them. know what I'm saying? ⁓
J: Right. It's like this includes more than me. I'm like, it does. And in that sense, you can say, Look, I have expanded. I've done the meta thinking. I'm thinking about thinking. I'm including more than just my perspective. I'm like, Yes. But you're still speaking from it from your perspective. This is not and that that part never goes away. You're always that part. And that's fine because that's how human beings work. But stop pretending like it's not there. Like that's a level of
Damien: Exactly. You
J: blindness that's unnecessary. You don't need to have that level of confusion.
Damien: Yeah, I think there's different levels of that confusion in the sense that There are people who are completely oblivious about their own personal experience. And there are people who kind of like just ignore it and only bring it up in certain parts of their lives. So, yeah, I just wanted to add that little part.
J: That's fair.
Damien: I mean we can continue unless you got anything else. I gotta stop real quick, because she's making a lot of good points in my opinion, but she keeps continuing on and going. And I don't wanna kind of like, I wanna speak to a couple of things that she was saying. And this, It's interesting to me that she does not subscribe to what I would call a collective personality, She doesn't believe that you can ⁓ you can know the other. She doesn't believe in this concrete view of even when she talks about the confessions for, I guess what was that? Augustine, And so she like, well, there's no in that internal experience, ⁓ I'm not necessarily so familiar with Augustine, to me, and my understanding of the development of... psychology or understanding of personal experience, it ⁓ makes sense me that these things that may be normal now, people didn't necessarily recognize always throughout all of history to say, ⁓ you have a personal experience. or you there's this thing called shame, because there are people who don't believe in shame and guilt. They're just kind of like
J: Right.
Damien: these things that just happen or these flashes in their life that they kind of try to ignore or something like that, I just found that to be interesting.
J: Yeah, it's just funny. Denial is real. I just think I think she I think it's humorous where people try to ⁓ look at the world in a way without morality, they ⁓ use that's not moral, but they live in a way that is moral, and it's always f funny to see people try to navigate the the two. And I think she really is putting out a huge part where a lot of ⁓ People, least currently, haven't really developed to a point where they're so secure in themselves that they've been able to have enough self esteem and general identity where they can ⁓ form all that on their own and hold hold integrity ⁓ in own values, their own ⁓ ideas having that constant affirmation from other people. Like she's using the word visibility, and I'm like, okay, yeah, visibility's good. She's like, Yeah, I feel seen. I'm like But not only seen, they feel approved. They feel approved. They want they want approval. They want they don't want to just they don't want to have other people just reflect back to them. They do want that too, but they want the reflection to come back with positive, positive emotions, positive affirmations, actual approval of who they are, what they think, what they're doing. They want to know that they're both right as people and right in what they're doing and saying enough to where other people still like them.
Damien: Right. Absolutely. And I think for me another interesting piece about that is The mentality that she talks about, she says it's an instrumental mentality. And I can go back to figure out the exact words that she used. But the way that I hear it and receive it is like... She's talking about a collective mentality in my opinion. When she's talking about that absence of self that, because ⁓ already some history about how she feels about the difference between a liberal and a leftist. when she says liberal, it also sounds like a conservative to me. They really sound like the same thing in the sense that they're not. differentiating themselves from the world. That's kind of like what I gather from it. Yes, I'm not gonna worry about The world moves better when we do this. So let's just do the thing that makes the world better without reference to individuals. And. That's a ridiculous take to me, but people do this often,
J: All the time. Yes.
Damien: I feel like, wow, ⁓ think that she understands and that's what's fascinating to me about her, even as a leftist. I love part.
J: Nice. Yeah, I definitely think she's trying to ⁓ make some sense of it and trying to put it together. I do think some of her definitions mix, but I think she's ⁓ at least speaking s speaking to what she sees. So I like that. She's trying to be as honest honest as possible.
Damien: Yeah, true. me kick it off again. that was a lot. So I just wanted to cut it just to see if you had anything that you wanted to add on that part.
J: Mm. has lot to say. And she had a lot of premises that I think were baseless. ⁓ But she just a trend and and and I appreciate the fact that she's like, ⁓ look, there is a trend of there being a lot of ⁓ differences between the right and the left, and a lot of disagreement between people who have things versus people who don't have things, and that's ⁓ those those are real. ⁓ divisions and they have real ⁓ issues. I mean the sense I there are I hear where she's coming from. I'm like, all right, yes, those are real differences and those two sides are are at at at at war. There's lots of actual conflict going on.
Damien: Yeah, I mean, but when I hear her argument, I didn't really hear her argument for elites versus the worker. I hear her argument as the war between two different kinds of elites. That's, well, I even know if I would call them elites, Because...
J: I mean sure.
Damien: I don't know what I call Trump an elite. I don't think I would call him an elite. I'm not necessarily, I'm not. You said so, you said you would.
J: Think so. Yeah, I mean I don't think he f fits into the highest form of ⁓ in intellectual elites, but I would think that he qualifies just based on class itself. I mean, he has enough money to be in the point zero one percent. I'm like, when they're when they talk about being the highest of the highest, I'm like, he qualifies. He's done that. He went to Wharton. He's he did the things.
Damien: And see, I guess if I would look at elite as a number, then that'd be one thing. But I'm not really thinking of elite as a number, or dollar amount of wealth. I'm thinking. guess so. For this argument, yes, I'll accept that, right? But I think what she's speaking to is the difference in... It's like a culture difference between these two kinds of people. It's like the...
J: Yeah.
Damien: Educated elite, Harvard elite, like she's saying. And there's just the, hey, I just worked at this business for a long time and made a lot of money type of hard work. Oh, I don't even wanna say hard work. It's not that I'm saying hard work, it's just the. scrappy, the doer mentality type. the ethical, no, not ethical, the intellectual elite and then the dual, the practical elite. That's kind of like what the differentiation I'm seeing from what she's saying. And I think the...
J: Yeah, right.
Damien: I think that she's just using, just like I do, using these methods of explaining things as tools. Because for me, I do think there's something there. This is why I'm kind of following along with what she's saying. You know me, I use the Jungian, I use the Keegan, I use from, I use or rand. As tools because have systems and it lets me create some kind of common language to use with somebody to say, hey, here's a thing. And I don't really want to come up with a new way to say the same thing again, like a lot of people tend to do. Like, hey, I invented this new thing. No, you didn't. You just explained the same thing in your way. And it's really not new. But Tameesi's using them ⁓ tools.
J: Just subscribe to your way.
Damien: And it's like the same patterns though. It's the same patterns of, just this concretistic way of approaching life or a way of just explaining some of these majorities that, in groups that we see in society, these orientations toward the world. So that was one other part that I just, ⁓ I forgot she had said that, cause I don't think you call it any, I haven't really put out any of my new stuff. I'm still working on a video on trying to tie these things together with more of a developmental evolutionary or developmental psychology. And when she talks about. the birth of a person coming from a child. even, you probably remember. remember that book. Escape from freedom that I was talking about with Fromm it's the same pattern. It's the same thing as far as, and I think Jung talks about this as well. It's the whole idea of being and living as a subject. The world is the subject, right? And as you go get older, go through these Keegan says it too, these subject object shifts to where is those like, ⁓ I can make. decisions about the world. I am not the world, the world is not me. I can make decisions about things, those things are objects. And as you take these steps up in your development, right, you're differentiating. And differentiation is equivalent to individuation in Jung's right? And so you're individuating from that piece, that... ⁓
J: Exactly. Yes, differentiation. Yeah.
Damien: motherly bond, ⁓ I experienced the world is a subject to our experience, the world is object. And that growth people don't always take full track. They hang on that is or world is a subject thing, because they haven't differentiated themselves from the world.
J: Mm-hmm. There you go.
Damien: Right. So I just found that part, that part of a fascinating.
J: Yeah, it's fascinating. It's always a process of development and no one's gonna force you to do it. So yeah, let's check it out.
Damien: Cool, cool. but to me that's perfect, is why I like this person,
J: That's mean, that's just a mischaracterization. Like I it's it's it's a fine generalization. Abuse does exist. People are using their power poorly. There are people out there who are doing it blatantly, bluntly, openly, and then there are people who are doing it in a much more subtle way. I'm like, sure, yes, you can abuse power lots of ways. And people who are being abused, they know it. They can't do anything about it, because that's how systems work. But yes, they they they do get to participate in meaning they do get to realize like, ⁓ this isn't working out for me. This isn't working for me at all. It's almost like I don't have power in the system. Nope. No, you don't.
Damien: Yes, right. So. I am aligned her even though I don't agree with her. the thing that I think differentiates me from her perspective, and I don't know how we're gonna get there, and I don't think that we get there in this conversation. She takes the perspective, and this is one thing I would like to help people with, the perspective that there's no... There's no responsibility for people for making decisions. this is what differentiates people in my mind. You can say that there's a, ⁓ Trump crowd, the Trump crowd that she's talking about, the Nietzschean and Iran libertarian, there's an assumption that, hey, you're supposed to get yours, I got mine. Right? And other people,
J: Mm-hmm.
Damien: that she's talking about the are like, you should get yours. I'm really, really trying to help you get yours. I don't, you know, I really, really care, but I don't, maybe I might take a little money here and take a little money there. To me, that you can see that in society. But I think to me, She takes the position that, to me who takes the position of worker versus elite, they're not really recognizing that there must be some assumption of autonomy, some assumption of agency here. this what makes me, even though like the way she's characterizing Iran and Donald Trump or whatever that group is that she's talking about, I am aligned that group in the sense that, Yes, it's your damn responsibility. If I put out a product and it's not valuable to you, don't pay for it. That's how I know that this is not good. This is how I know I wasted my money on my investment. You know what saying? But she's like, well, people know that they're being taken advantage of. And it's like, yeah, but they need people who solve problems. And as analytical and diagnostic she may be,
J: Mm-hmm. Right. Feedback.
Damien: People like her don't solve problems in my opinion. They're not problem solvers. They don't solution.
J: Well she's not actually solving this problem. She's not even understanding this problem. She's she's definitely not solving it. It's not even on her list of things to do today.
Damien: ⁓ that to me ⁓ Those, and I'm very much generalizing here, but people who talk like this, they don't assume that there's a responsibility from the person as an agent their interactions with corporations and their interactions with people with money. They just assume that, ⁓ that person is insignificant. They really don't matter. You matter, it just may not, ⁓ there's a magnitude, as long as the magnitude is like equal to the size of your life, what the hell does it matter? You know what I'm saying?
J: Exactly. There you go. You gotta shrink your scale and you'll be fine. Like this is my scope. It matters right here. But in the in the grand scheme of things of all of human history, no, no course doesn't matter.
Damien: So. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. But that's what I was trying to say when I'm in line with her, but I don't agree with her.
J: Right, right. She's really just talking about power dynamics. She really is just saying, like, hey, look, people on the right can be really strong and authoritarian and they can say, ⁓ I got mine, you get yours. Or people on the left can be like, Hey, w want us all to get there together, but while we're gonna get there, we're gonna need everybody's stuff. Give me give me your stuff and I'm gonna make decisions for you because I'm smarter than you, and then that's gonna help us get there. So like the person in the middle is like, I'm either getting my stuff taken by ⁓
Damien: Right.
J: This person so they can help me, or by this other person who says, not gonna I'm not gonna allow you to have other things because I'm gonna get it myself. So I'm either being out competed on one side or being actively ⁓ convinced to ⁓ give my stuff away from on the other side. I'm like, Yeah, people are after your stuff. That does exist. There is real competition in real in life, and people with power are are taking it. They are taking the stuff.
Damien: You Yes. Yes.
J: They have power. That is what they're using their power for. And so yes, some people are in the middle in the sense of being actively disenfranchised and being taken advantage of. Not all power is being used that way, but a lot is.
Damien: But I mean, the one pushback I would give to you, Josh, is that it's not my job to make a decision and figure out what decision you should make as well. Like, when I try to take your stuff, you're supposed to say, no, this is the amount of the stuff that you can have for the thing that you're offering. That's your job.
J: There we go. Negotiation.
Damien: Yeah. that if I would have used this conversation to figure out what's the difference between me and that person, that's the differentiation between me and that left perspective. Get a little bit more real quick. So that's exactly what you just said to me, Josh. What she just said is exactly what you just said.
J: Yep. Yeah, I mean I think I think that lines up. Yeah, these are some clear power dynamics. She is just like, hey, this is how this is working and people don't like it. Like it is working this way and people hate it. Huh. So yeah, we agree. Those I think those those things line up right there.
Damien: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, man. I think I was gonna stop it right there, right? But I thought that was, that's an interesting conversation at the end. The one thing I took from her, like the last thing she said. The idea that people who went to school. are the representatives of a meritocracy. Like I don't, I don't even believe in this meritocracy thing necessarily, but. Going to school has nothing to do with merit to me. You went to school, you know, but you have to do the things. Like I know a lot of people go to school and they make a lot of money and I get that part, but you have to do things. That's the merit is in doing things and having...
J: Yeah.
Damien: accomplishments. That's the merit. And is an accomplishment, don't get me wrong. It could be part of it. You say what?
J: Right. Practically, yeah. yes, but that's when she's referring to it, she's referring it to the old way of of to where that's not that. But I hear what you're saying because you're thinking literally, which is the real answer.
Damien: Yeah, and also, you say that, it becomes clear to me that this whole everybody goes to college thing was not always a thing neither, right? College was reserved for people who had some sort of promise, right? So.
J: Right. And it anyway, it it s it significantly changed from that 'cause because it became a business and they stopped doing all the skills focus pointing of like, all right, let's make sure we have jobs for these people who are graduating. ⁓ make sure the people who who hiring, let's teach people those skills so they can actually have those things. And when it when that when that got de decoupled from When college stopped being associated with business, then we started getting a lot more college is the business. And now everybody has to have a degree. Everyone. We're gonna market to everyone. Everyone gets gets a education now.
Damien: Everyone gets an education, but education in and of itself. The education has to pay off. Like people don't really make do that part of it. ⁓ If you go to college and you paid more for a degree than you're actually going to make back on it, that's not a great investment. That's not a smart decision.
J: No. Right. That's not an investment. That's that's an actual liability. You you actively gave away money so that you could pay more money. It's a bad choice. It's a bad risk to reward. You should not do it. But it is where we are now and it's super frustrating where that's not even brought up when they're like in high school and like, ⁓ what do you want to be when you grow up? It's like, not poor. I don't want to be in debt. Is that is that an option?
Damien: you You
J: Let's have one of those. I'm already poor. I'm starting behind April. I don't wanna be poorer. It's crazy.
Damien: Right, right, good. But people get into these. It's true, man, but there becomes this keeping up with the Joneses aspect of going to college too. There's this thing of, white people go to college. I mean, I heard people make this argument where people say, because I don't necessarily advise that all kids go to college just universally or unilaterally, whatever that, I advise that. That does not make sense to me. But some people are like, their is simply, it's something simple like white people go to college and so therefore you know college is important and so therefore you should go to college or your kids should go to college. It's like, you could literally get training in a job that nobody wants to do, make a lot of money and learn the stuff online in your free time while you're retired, damn it. ⁓
J: Yes. Right. Yeah. Right. I mean if learning is your goal, no one is stopping you from learning. The library is open, the information is free, Google exists. So there's no reason for you not to learn. But when people pretend like if I just have a degree, all will be fine. I'm like, that is not how this works. I agree that it could have worked that way at some point in time, but wasn't it wasn't in my lifetime, wasn't in my parents' lifetime. So
Damien: You
J: You know, I I want kids to have a much clearer idea. Like you need to be useful to somebody. You need to understand how business works. You need to learn that early as you can. You need to start getting as many of those business skills as you can growing up instead of waiting for college to give it to you because people who have those skills aren't in college. That's not how college works. That's not what it is for. It would be great if it was, but that's not how it actually works. But it just interests me back in the day that, you know, D Dr. Carl Jung and all the rest of these people were so mad at the ⁓ and they're like, ⁓ these people who just have institutionalized power and ridiculous wealth are abusing their power and they're doing terrible things. And pretending their ⁓ social caste merit and they're using that idea and they're like, ⁓ this meritocracy and like ⁓ education is be the same. They can go to a school ⁓ That has all the right social classes in it and has all the ⁓ accolades. And because, you know, everybody thinks it it ⁓ is the best, just by being associated with the school, you can have the same kind of social and that carte blanche ⁓ approach to life to where you can just doesn't matter if you're good or if you're bad or if you have a skill or don't have a skill, long as you have the network, you can just use that as your merit, and that's a new meritocracy. I'm like, hmm. I never thought of using that word that way. Okay. That was that is a that is a interesting historical ⁓ reference. didn't know.
Damien: Yeah, it's definitely, me that was a misuse of the word meritocracy ⁓ maybe she was just explaining how she thinks it works. ⁓
J: Yes. You should not use the word merit. Like, that's not how merit works at all. None of that has related to any of the things. I understand why people were angry about it. Okay. That's some that's a that's a clearer thing. 'Cause I've had that argument with someone before and they're just like, You don't understand meritocracy or where it comes from and you think ⁓ meritocracy is okay and you're part of the problem. I'm like, I mean
Damien: You
J: You just said that doing things is wrong, so I don't understand how that's possible that I could be part of the problem. I think we have different viewpoints altogether, but you can't explain yours and I don't know what you're trying to say. You you just told me that doing th that doing the right thing is wrong. So I don't have anything else to say. I don't know where we go from there from here. This is a strange conversation.
Damien: I look, I think many things can be understood if we stop separating them and combining them. From the standpoint of going to school to become someone who can be productive is a full motion. But just because I went to school didn't give me merit. mean merit.
J: Right?
Damien: But if I went to school enable me to produce more, then that gets me both sides of the stick. So I think ⁓ terms of the stick, everybody wants to grab an end of the stick. We need to start picking up the stick. We need to see the full range of the stick.
J: Right. Right. Yes. Yes. It's gotta be both intent and something actual. You gotta literally get there.
Damien: Right, and why we, that's why intellectuals are trash. Well, let me, me, they can be, because there's.
J: They can be. That that's why there are some intellectuals who are
Damien: said, I saw said a clip when he talked about this. I think this is knowledge. they don't have to pay for their ideas being wrong. In business, you have to pay for your ⁓ idea being wrong. You can say the most thing in a university as an intellectual.
J: Mm-hmm.
Damien: And it doesn't look at Abraham X. Kim. Actually, the more ridiculous things that you say, the more money you may be able to make because there's somebody wants to believe it. You know what saying? So it's just ridiculous, man.
J: There you go. Yes. They're like, I've exposed to something new and therefore it's valuable. I'm like, I don't know if it is valuable. Have we used it for something? What is it valuable for? To who is it valuable? I don't know if we can just say that just ⁓ on the on its face.
Damien: Hahaha man
J: Yeah, right. Yeah. People just do it. It's a mistake.
