Introsapien: Hello world. Welcome to IntroSapian, a podcast about the next revolution of human intelligence. The emotionally aware, relationally intelligent, and deeply introspective sapien. I'm your host, Professor Taruna Garwala. Today I have a guest who has left me deeply inspired by her vision. A guest today is Anyuta Hyrt. Anyuta, welcome to Introsapi.
Anyuta DHIR: Thank you Tarun, it's wonderful to be here. And just a slight correction. My name is pronounced as Anuta and the last name is Dheer. Yes.
Introsapien: Dhir. I practiced it so many times, but being from Bengal, I am more used to saying dhir. And I and I just couldn't bring myself to say dhar, of course, and dhir, and I said something in between.
Anyuta DHIR: All right. So thank you, Tarun, and it's wonderful to be here.
Introsapien: Let's talk a bit about you. You started off as a software developer in the late nineties. And while building HR SAS, you fell in love with the learning and development domain. And then Steria India happened, Tell me more about your time there at Steria.
Anyuta DHIR: actually it's very interesting because when I look back, none of it was actually planned. I started my career as a software developer in the late nineties and at that time when technology was rapidly transforming business, I enjoyed solving problems through technology. But what fascinated me even more was understanding the people who use those systems. And while working on HR and learning management systems and implementations, I realized technology doesn't transform organizations. People do. And that curiosity slowly pulled me towards HR. And joining Sterea India became a defining milestone in that journey. And Sterea wasn't just another HR role for me. In fact, it was where I truly understood the strategic side of human resources and had the opportunity to work across leadership development, talent management, organizational effectiveness, and large-scale people transformation initiatives in a truly global environment. So what stood out was that every business challenge eventually came back to people. And whether we were driving business growth or managing change or improving customer outcomes, success depended on how effectively leaders engaged, developed, and inspired their teams. That experience completely changed my perspective and I stopped seeing HR as a support function. And in fact, I started seeing it as a business function, one that could influence productivity, innovation, culture, and ultimately profitability. And looking looking back today, I often say my software background taught me how systems work, but sterea taught me how people systems work and When one understands both I think I started seeing the organizations very differently. And I think that's where the seeds of what I now call sustainable HR was first planted, although I didn't have that language for it back then. And Today, after nearly three decades across fifteen industries, and across five continents, I still believe that businesses don't transform because technologies change. They transform because people choose to change.
Introsapien: Choice. People choose to change and therefore change happens no matter what you do with technology and no matter what you bring to the table. so I think looks like brilliant to have that kind of exposure so early on in life. And then I see that your experience. really diversified after that. I mean your exposure went from IT services to food and beverages industry then to hospitals and healthcare and then environmental causes. as you said that styria is probably where the seeds of sustainable HR got sowed. But I see a lot of synergy between sustainability and environmental causes. So what role did Violia play in your life?
Anyuta DHIR: when you talk about me crossing the industry domains and I think it my true calling was actually HR. HR found me, then I found HR. While technology opened the door, but people gave me a purpose. And once I experienced the impact that great leadership and great culture could have on business outcomes, I knew I'd found my calling. And talking about Veolia, I would say Veolia didn't give me my calling. Give my calling a name. And by the time I joined Veolia, I'd already worked across multiple industries, which you just enumerated: FMCG, IT, healthcare manufacturing, ed tech, fintech, SaaS, and eventually environment at Veolia. What I understood was every industry had different business models, but the one thing remained constant. Which was every business challenge, eventually became a people challenge. And whether it was attracting the right talent, building leadership capability, or managing change, or creating an engaging culture, the solution always started and ended with people. And then Veolia happened to me. And for the first time, I was working for an organization whose very purpose was sustainability.
Introsapien: So
Anyuta DHIR: And Veolia is world number one in environmental services. So we were not talking about we were not talking about sustainability as a CSR initiative or an annual report. We were living it every single day. And whether it was water conservation, hazardous waste management, circular economy, or environmental responsibility, sustainability was embedded into every business decision. And that's when I had my biggest realization. I realized that while organizations were investing Heavily in ESG, very few were asking one simple question, which is who is going to make ESG successful? And that answer was obvious to me. It was people. And if people are the ones delivering ESG, then HR cannot sit on the sidelines. HR has to become one of the biggest drivers of sustainability. And that realization completely changed the way how I looked at my profession. I stopped thinking about HR as a managing employees function and started thinking about HR as a business supporting and building sustainable organizations. And that's really where the philosophy of sustainable HR began to take shape.
Introsapien: So who owns it in the organization? Is it the HR who owns it? Or is it the business? Who is the Piper? Who's the king?
Anyuta DHIR: HR is owned by everybody. It is very simple, you know.
Introsapien: But who is going to be accountable first? Like where does the buck stop looking looking at CSR as a much larger responsibility or ESG as part of CSR, whichever way they look at. So who's gonna own it up? HR is gonna execute. Right? Or HR owns it up.
Anyuta DHIR: If I told you everything about ESG in an organization, when an organization goes about reporting it, okay, and the different parameters, worldwide on an average, forty to sixty percent of these reporting parameters were people-centric and people-dependent, what would your answer be?
Introsapien: Forty two.
Anyuta DHIR: 60%. If you take the world reporting standards and an average of all of these reporting standards across the globe, including the US and India. And if I were to tell you that sustainability is a bigger picture and CSR is just a subset, and the entire you know, the metrics that need to be reported, up to 60 percent.
Introsapien: To this inside, well, I'm trying to understand if this is less or more. Is that what you're asking? Is sixty percent less?
Anyuta DHIR: No, no, I'm asking the same question that you asked me. So, you are asking me about
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: who would be leading it, who would be owning it. So, it is the answer is it's going to be owned by the people. HR is not just an executioner, and the biggest problem in the world today is, businesses are successful because of people. People are not executioners,
Introsapien: Same.
Anyuta DHIR: people decide, people own. People thrive and
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: people deliver. And that's how we make Google's and Microsoft's and Tatas and Birlas of the world.
Introsapien: Yeah, I mean it it's really a rhetorical question and for all business owners to ask this question themselves and the answer that you have given Anyota is is beautiful. if you're asking that question, then the responsibility is yours, of course. If you're not asking that question, then there's a problem. So first of all, everybody should be asking that question, and whoever is asking that question, yeah, you have a role to play. I mean that's a beautiful answer. Then you founded Sustainera, After Violia, through which you championed the cause of sustainable HR. So could you unpack this for us? I think you you said a few things but when it comes to this this term sustainable HR. I think people should be able to quickly imagine or conjure up a an image or what encompasses sustainable HR. So could you unpack this for us? What what do we mean by sustainable H?
Anyuta DHIR: That's one of the questions that I'm asked the most, and I'm always happy to answer it because sustainable HR means different things to different people.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: And for me, sustainable HR is about building organizations that don't just deliver profits today, but continue creating value for people, businesses, society, and the planet for years to come.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: And traditionally, HR has focused on attracting talent, managing performance, ensuring compliance and improving engagement. Those are all important. But today's business environment demands much, much, much more. And we are dealing with climate change, we are dealing with AI disruption, we are dealing with changing workforce expectations, skill shortages, mental health concerns, and diversity and inclusion because the world is reducing into a small global village. And increasing pressure from investors regulators and customers. So these are no longer isolated business issues, they are people issues. And that's where sustainable HR comes in. I define sustainable HR as the integration of environmental, social, and governance, which is the ESG principles, into every stage of the employee lifecycle, from hire to retire. And this is with one single goal to create long-term value for people, purpose, and planet, and the overall business performance. So it's not about adding another HR initiative, it's about rethinking how we recruit, onboard, develop, reward, engage, and lead people so that every HR decision contributes to building a more responsible and resilient organization. So let me just put in a quick example here. Sustainable hiring means hiring fairly and inclusively. Sustainable learning means preparing people for future skills like AI, green jobs, and ethical leadership. Sustainable performance means measuring not just what people achieve, but how they achieve it. And sustainable rewards recognize these behaviors that create a long term impact, not just short term results. So, sustainable HR isn't a separate strategy. It is the people strategy that enables business sustainability. And that's the philosophy behind Sustainera. And it's also the foundation of the work I do with organizations across sectors.
Introsapien: Could we could we take an example of like for listeners, a lot of this would be words that they might be they they might come across for the first time. Or maybe words that they have become immune to, like sustainability is a word probably the world has become immune to. our our ears don't perk up when we hear the word sustainability anymore. so if we have to look at in a where it's been implemented, or you have examples where you can look at an organization doing something and say, look at this organization. And in my sustainability HR, let's say index, if you have, let's say you have a sustain error index, and you look at a few factors on which factors you'll say if these are the five factors you're doing well, then you get a 10 on 10. So, what are some of one or two factors that you will look at in sustainability? When you say a company is practicing. the the ideology of sustainable HR, some examples of real world maybe where you have applied or you have come across some of the organizations that are practicing some
Anyuta DHIR: Okay, so there are lots of companies out there who are doing a lot of sustainable HR practices, starting from Vic Vipro, IKEA, Tata Suns, lots of them. But if I were to talk about, certain intricate aspects, I just want you to understand that, you know, every ESG goal, whether it's reducing carbon emissions or improving diversity or strengthening ethics or enhancing the employee well-being or ensuring responsible governance, it depends on human behavior. And human behavior in an organization is influenced by HR. So now talking about examples, if we want More diverse workforce, HR recruits it. If we want ethical leaders, HR develops them. If we employees to embrace sustainability, HR would build that culture through learning, communication, recognition, and leadership. And if we want governance to be more transparent, HR embeds those values into performance management, succession planning, leadership development, and organizational culture. So in fact ESG may be reported by sustainability teams, but it is delivered by the people and people are always enabled by HR. So I hope that answer answered your question.
Introsapien: Yeah, and let's see if we can also bring in any examples of companies who are applying some of the principles that you hold relevant and important towards sustainable nature,
Anyuta DHIR: IKEA is one of them. It's on the chart top of the chart. So if one goes and Googles IKEA and sustainability goals, they'll be able to see a lot what IKEA has done.
Introsapien: in fact, ICAR reminds me of another company, IDO. And when it comes to IDO, we think about design and everything human-centered. So there's a phrase around the same time when I heard about design thinking and ideo. is human centered organizational design. do we have a definition that we all agree on today?
Anyuta DHIR: See, I actually think we use the term human centered quite loosely today and that's where the confusion begins. And
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: many people assume human centered means being employee friendly or creating a great place to work. While those are certainly outcomes, I believe it goes much, much deeper than that. And to me, human-centered organizational design is about designing every aspect of an organization around enabling people to do their best work while achieving sustainable business outcomes. And and notice I said and not instead of.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: So sometimes organizations create policies that make people happy but don't help the business. Others
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: focus only on business efficiency and forget about the human experience, and neither approach is sustainable. A truly human-centered organization creates a balance between the needs of the business and the needs of its people. And that means designing work, leadership, technology. processes, rewards, learning and culture in a way that allows both people and the organization to thrive. So you know for example, flexible work isn't human-centered because simply because employees like it. It's human-centered when it's designed to improve the well-being, the trust, the productivity, the collaboration and the business performance simultaneously. And similarly, AI isn't human centered just because it automates work. It becomes human centered when it removes repetitive tasks, reduces biases, enables better decision making and gives managers more time for meaningful conversations. So human centered design is not about putting people first before business. It's about
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: recognizing that businesses succeed because people succeed.
Introsapien: Yeah. And there's a there's another point emerging from what you said, what what you're saying and And it connects very well with what we see as how HRs function, unfortunately, in in in many organizations. And that is it's it's not about imitating practices. In in yes, best practices, of course, we want to imitate, but it is not really about imitating best practices, it is about the intent. What is the impact? Because you know best what impact you want and therefore you know best what should be the metric and you apply practices, frameworks, you want to apply. I think that's what is emerging from what you're saying, that human centered organisational design is not about just putting tools like AI. It is the application of it and What's the impact on o on people?
Anyuta DHIR: Yeah, so you know, that's where sustainable HR aligns beautifully with human centered design. We don't see people as resources to be managed. We see them as partners in creating long term organizational value.
Introsapien: that brings me to a question that is often asked, which is or or a concern that is we view HR traditionally as a cost center, right? But we also have been talking about that HR should become a a strategic value creator or strategic partner that directly contributes to growth. But it I'm not sure if people really understand what it really means to be a strategic value creator. Do you wanna talk about that a little bit?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes, I have a slightly provocative view on this and I don't think HR has a branding problem.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: I think HR has a business language problem. For decades, we've measured success through HR metrics like headcount, attrition, time-to-hire, training hours, engagement scores. While these are important operational indicators, they are not the language that CEOs, boards, or investors use to elevate or evaluate business success. Business leaders usually ask different questions, you know, something like how do we improve productivity, how do we increase profitability, how do we reduce business risks, or how do we accelerate innovation, and how do we retain critical talent and build future capability? So, if HR wants a seat at the strategy table, it must demonstrate how people's decisions influence these business outcomes. And over the years, I've seen firsthand that when HR aligns its strategy with business priorities, the impact is transformational. And one example I'm very particularly proud of helping position HR. as a strategic partner in winning a 15 crore business contract. and that's wasn't because HR recruited faster. It was because we demonstrated that our people capability, culture, and talent strategy gave the client that confidence that we could successfully deliver the project. And that's when it struck me that people strategy is business strategy. And today HR has an even bigger an opportunity. You know, with AI, ESG, workforce transformation and changing employee expectations, HR is uniquely positioned to shape the future of work. But to do that, we need to move beyond policies and start influencing business decisions. And for me, sustainable HR is exactly that. Because when HR helps grow revenue, reduces risk, improves productivity, and strengthen leadership. that automatically builds organizational resilience and it's no longer a cost center. And it becomes one of the organization's greatest value creators.
Introsapien: Is it is it still a hard sell to organizations?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes, because they look at HR only as a mere coordinator. They expect a lot from HR, but they are not ready to hear HR.
Introsapien: Why is this why are we still stuck in that? I have been seeing this well, I I have been on the other side, on the business side, And today on this side of the table, and everybody we think about or talk to about in business, they don't have a great view of HR. Why is that not changing when we know that HR's role in an organization is now Well, I I think I made a prediction. I'm guessing that my prediction that I made in 2020 will someday come true that one day CHROs will become the most sought-after CEOs of organizations. If we're heading to that direction, then the least we want to see today is that HR is is is an incredibly serious function in an organization. Why does HR keep becoming the passenger when HR actually is the driver? What's happening?
Anyuta DHIR: See, actually businesses still look at people as resources to be managed.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: And you know, people are not resources to be managed. In fact, you know, people are if you give them enough resourcefulness. They would be the ones who will be build you know building your business. And businesses succeed because people succeed. So till the time we don't take out the resources from the humanness and replace it with resourcefulness, I think organizations will reduce its strongest power in people as a mere, you know, resource that they need to manage. And you know, now I'm just Getting to the point, and that's why I chose the phrase for my company and my tagline as being humanely resourceful. Doesn't that lead all of us through our lives? Because we are being humanely resourceful and that makes us go places. So if
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: I bring this term in the organization rather than human resources, I am reduced to just one something like a capital input into the organization. I'm not. For me, it's more than a tagline. It's a leadership philosophy. It reminds us that organizations need to be resourceful in achieving business goals. And that's what makes them resilient. They may never lose sight of the human beings who make these goals possible. And when we combine empathy with accountability and purpose with performance, we create organizations that are not only successful, but resilient and sustainable.
Introsapien: Right. Yeah,
Anyuta DHIR: I hope it answers the question.
Introsapien: absolutely. So after Violia you chose to build an independent people centered advisory. You got your insights, hint. spark at styria and then violia kinda gave it a shape as you said gave it a language but then you chose to build an independent people centered advisory practice rather than stay inside conventional corporate structures. Why why this shift?
Anyuta DHIR: Because I was inspired by Mahatma Gandhi's quote is to be the change you want to see. And I have seen HR being ill-treated in almost you know every size of organization and at least people look at HR from the same lens. And that's the question I started reflecting on deeply before making the decision that I did. I did I genuinely
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: enjoyed my corporate journey. Every organization I work with taught me something valuable, and I was fortunate to work with inspiring leaders, diverse industries, and global teams. So this wasn't about walking away from the corporate, it was about walking towards a larger purpose. And by then I had spent almost over two and a half decades helping organizations solve people challenges. But I also noticed something interesting, and that was regardless the industry or the geography, the conversations were becoming remarkably similar. So organizations were asking: how do we attract and retain talent? How do we build future-ready leaders? How do we embrace AI without losing the human touch? How do we integrate ESG into business? And how do we create cultures where people and performance grow together? And that's where I realized that you know these were. Were not company-specific problems, these were global challenges. And I wanted freedom to work across industries, collaborate with leaders from different zones and sectors, and help organizations build sustainable people practices rather than solving. Isolated HR issues. And that's why I founded Sustainera being humanely resourceful. And the purpose is simple to help organizations build workplaces where people, purpose, planet and performance grow together. And also organizations understand how HR can work as a profit center and not as a cost center. And today we partner with organizations of every size, from startups to MSMEs to large enterprises, not just on HR processes, but on creating future-ready organizations through sustainable HR, ESG integration, AI-enabled people practices, leadership development, employer branding, and workforce transformation. So for me, Sustainera isn't just a consulting fall. It's a platform to influence the future of work, people, individuals, HR professionals, stakeholders, decision makers, board members, and all of this one member at a time, and all of this one organization at a time.
Introsapien: And how long has it been since?
Anyuta DHIR: it's been over two years and it's been one of the most rewarding phases of my career. like every founder, I've experienced uncertainty, long days, highs and lows, and I've had to wear multiple hats, but it's also given me the opportunity to build something that's deeply aligned with my values. And I think human resources is is omnipresent and Sustainable HR thrives where the humanely resourcefulness exists.
Introsapien: So what's what's happening at organizations today? Let's let's start with there's a lot of chatter about trust these days, isn't it? specifically institutional trust. And why not? Like Tata Trust. Once you have established that, you reap the benefits for a long time in every way. So the Growing emphasis on organizational trust is not without reason. So for starters, wearing your 360 lens, how in your observation has employee expectation changed in the last few years in India? And let's see if we can compare it against any other nation.
Anyuta DHIR: Okay. I believe we've witnessed the biggest shift in the employer employee relationship in the last decade than we've seen in the previous three decades combined. And
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: employees primarily looked at three things a stable job, a competitive compensation, and a career growth. So today these are just the starting point. And employees are asking much deeper questions, deeper questions, like something like Do I trust this organization? Do I belong here? Will this company invest in my growth? Does its purpose align with my values? And can I be authentic? Can I be my authentic self at work? So, in other words, relationship has evolved from a transaction to a partnership. And that's why institutional trust has become so important. People don't build trust because an organization says trust us. They build trust when they consistently experience fairness, transparency, empathy, and accountability. And in India, we are seeing a fascinating transformation. You know, traditionally, Indian employees value job security and also organizational stability. But today, especially among younger professionals, purpose, flexibility, learning opportunities, leadership authenticity, well-being, and meaningful work have become equally important. And when I compare this
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: with many mess western markets, the direction is remarkably similar. the difference is one of maturity rather than intent. European organizations have been discussing well being, inclusion, and sustainability for a very long time. India, on the other hand, is moving at an incredible speed. We are adopting AI, hybrid work, ESG, and digital transformation simultaneously, which makes our workforce expectations evolve much faster. And interestingly, despite culture differences, one expectation is becoming universal. That people want to work for organizations they can trust, and trust isn't built through communication campaigns. It is
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: through everyday leadership behavior. And employees watch whether leaders do what they say, whether difficult decisions are handled fairly. Whether diverse voices are genuinely heard, and whether the organization lives its values when times are tough and not just when business is good. So for me, trust has become one of the strongest competitive advantages an organization can build. Because when employees trust the organization, they contribute much more, innovate more, collaborate more, and stay longer. And ultimately that's what sustainable HR is also all about. Creating workplaces where trust becomes a part of the culture rather than an initiative.
Introsapien: Yeah. One counter insight that I have. from my observations and working with companies and clients is that when it comes to this whole idea of employee expectation changing from stability which is what my generation looked at. And the generation today and the next after that, they're not really looking for stability. They're looking for what happens after you've got stability. And that is because, there is an environment, whether it's parental or it's government provided, there is a cushion. and so the question is whether is that is is that temporary? Or is that permanent? if that becomes temporary, will employees ex employee expectations fall back to in the master's hierarchy, right? The that question is is is a counter insight, and probably it comes more from the naysayers, That is because, hey, look, we want the world to progress in a way that we don't want to be caught up in a state where saying in our days we used to have it hard, so the new generation also should have it hard. No, teach them history, that what it took. for us to get here. But now that we are here, there's no point of you going back and restarting. Build from here, one of the reasons why this is important for people, I think, that we should be a lot more accepting, tolerant of new generations and it and it impacts how we look at justice and fairness. How do we treat Gen Z, generalize them maybe they they don't think They don't have rationality. And then at the other end, we say, look, they are smarter than everybody else. We don't want to put them on either extreme. We just want to say every five years, every 10 years, every 25 years, you will have these generation changes and you want to see those expectations change. Okay, with that, let me let me come to organizations. Now while employees are changing because anointments are changing, organizations are also changing, Because change is either timely, that means we we undergo change willingly, or it's late, which means it is forced. But there is always a change, which brings us to the hard part, which is culture change. So, as an advisor, Anyta, when you when you work with your clients, what part of culture work in your experience is often overestimated or misunderstood by a clients. In other words, what's the hard part of bringing culture change in any organization?
Anyuta DHIR: Well, I think the biggest misconception about culture is that it's something you can launch as a project. Culture is not a program. It's it's it's not a town hall, it's not a poster on the wall, and it certainly isn't a list of values printed in the employee handbook. culture
Introsapien: Thank you.
Anyuta DHIR: is simply how people behave when no one is watching. So what I often see is that organizations invest heavily in defining values, running engagement campaigns or can conducting culture workshops, expecting behaviors to change overnight. But behaviors don't change overnight because we communicate new values. You know, it's like making a new year resolution for an individual. That's what we're doing with organizations. Behaviors change when systems around people reinforce those values. Consistently. There has to be a whole framework to support that. You know, for example, imagine an organization says we value collaboration, but the promotion is based only on individual performance. Or they say innovation is encouraged, but employees are punished every time an experiment fails. Or they
Introsapien: Yes.
Anyuta DHIR: talk about inclusion. And yet the same voices dominate every leadership meeting.
Introsapien: Yes.
Anyuta DHIR: Then employees don't believe what the organization says. They believe
Introsapien: No.
Anyuta DHIR: what the organization rewards, recognizes, measures, and tolerates. And that's why I you know, I often tell my clients that culture is not built by communication, it's built by consistency, it's by it's built by walking the talk. And consistency comes from aligning leadership behavior, mostly top-down, HR practices, performance, and then all of the that follows with it: rewards, recognition, decision-making, and governance. So culture change isn't difficult because people resist change. It's difficult because organizations often expect people to change while keeping the systems exactly the same.
Introsapien: See, this I think this idea has been evangelized within the industry. A lot of seminars, I'm sure a lot of these big HR shows, A lot of those HR conclaves, these conversations have happened. And and so businesses have brought in stalwarts, sometimes directly by hiring celebrity CHROs, sometimes by hiring organizations like Sustainera or Empinetics Which means millions of dollars being poured in, h hundreds of thousands here and millions elsewhere. Now how but but still a lot of these culture transformation programs fail, right? Despite significant investments in these change initi initiatives. Why? What's really happening?
Anyuta DHIR: Because many organizations focus on visible culture rather than the embedded culture. The way I said walk the talk is missing. They invest in workshops, they do a lot of branding, they do a lot of events, communication campaigns. They are important, but they only influence awareness. It's like doing cosmetics, it's like me doing a makeup and the inside doesn't change. So You know, those are important, but they only influence awareness. Real culture, real culture transformation happens when organizations redesign the systems that shape the daily behavior. If the leadership behavior doesn't change, if the performance metrics don't change, if managers aren't held accountable. If rewards don't reinforce the desired culture, then employees receive mixed signals. And eventually they stop believing in transformation. And this is the one lesson I've learned over the years is people don't resist change.
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: They resist inconsistency. That's the bottom line.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: When leaders say one thing but reward another, trust declines, engagement drops, and transformation loses credibility. And that's why
Introsapien: Yes. Yes.
Anyuta DHIR: Sustainable HR places such emphasis on aligning the entire employee lifecycle within the organization's purpose and values from recruiting to onboarding to leadership development to performance, rewards, succession planning and recognition. And only then does culture become something that people experience every day rather than something they hear about once every quarter. you know that That if systems don't change, the culture won't change either.
Introsapien: Hm hm. Right. it's do what you promise and what you promise you deliver.
Anyuta DHIR: Yeah, so it starts with leadership behavior. Employees observe leaders every single day. They align the HR systems like recruitment, onboarding, learning, performance recognition, and leadership development with the behaviors that are wanted to be seen. So culture isn't in isn't created in HR. It's reinforced
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: through every decision the organization makes.
Introsapien: Right, right. Now w where there's change, there's bound to be disagreements, difficult decisions. So I have I have two questions here. first is what does healthy disagreement look like in leadership teams? How about we take an example?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes. I actually believe that healthy disagreements is one of the strongest indicators of a healthy leadership team. When every leader agrees with every decision, you know, I become more concerned than reassured. And because organizations don't need more agreement. They need better thinking. And
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: healthy dis disagreements isn't about conflict always. It's about having a psychological safety to challenge ideas without threatening relationships.
Introsapien: Is there is there an example that comes to your mind from s something you would have observed, either experienced or observed?
Anyuta DHIR: See, whether it's governments negotiating with each other or business leaders debating strategy, mature leadership isn't measured by the absence of disagreement. It's measured by the ability to disagree respectfully when remaining committed, you know, to the shared objective.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: So that's exactly what high-performing leadership teams do. The best executive teams I've worked with have, you know, never been the ones where everyone thought alike. In fact, they were the ones where people brought different perspectives to the table, and then once a decision was made, aligned completely behind it. So
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: I often tell leadership teams that debate in the boardroom, unite in the marketplace. And that's the difference. Difference between constructive disagreement and organizational politics. So healthy disagreements ask what's best for the organization, and unhealthy disagreements ask how do I prove that I'm right. And one is driven by purpose, the other is driven by ego.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And as leaders, we have to create environments where people feel safe saying, I see this differently. without worrying that they'll be labeled as difficult or disloyal because innovation, better decisions and stronger governance all begin with the courage to question.
Introsapien: Right, right. I and I'm watching a lot of news right now because our Prime Minister is traveling And I I like the way he disagrees with the portus and we are still trading with them. the American president can only shower words of praises at him. I think that is an example that I look at, and I think that that is and real life matters, there are real life consequences of decisions, you're pushing back, yet you're holding your head high and you're you're keeping. a friendly environment while maintaining leverage. I think that's that's important. Without having a strong leverage, it is impossible for people to disagree. And so I I think this is what I'm observing if there has to be healthy disagreement in the boardroom, or at home. then each party has to have leverage. Unless there is a leverage, there's either going to be tyranny, which means hierarchy. or surrender because I don't know How this is gonna play out, so I may not say it and so I leave it at that. So that therefore there is no disagreement, and that looks like a healthy decision that has happened because nobody disagreed. But in the end, you d agree, disagree, whatever you do, decisions have to be made. And in organizations, some of those decisions are difficult. in fact most of those decisions are difficult, like layoffs, and some of them don't end well. so any juicy story on this? Like has how has been your experience helping companies rebuild their credibility after emotionally charged repercussions, which may not have been intentional,
Anyuta DHIR: So I wish I had a juicy story to tell. But you know, after having put so many decades in HR, I've learned that stories worth telling are the ones that protect people's dignity and not expose their pain. Having
Introsapien: Yeah. Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: said that, I've certainly been part of difficult decisions, you know, restructuring businesses, transformations, role and organizational redesign. one thing I've learned is that employees don't judge organizations only by the decisions they make. They judge them by how those decisions are made.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And layoffs are rarely celebrated. They
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: affect careers, families, confidence, and a life, and lots of lives. But I've I've seen organizations emerge stronger not because they avoided difficult decisions, but because they handled them with transparency, empathy, fairness, and respect. And when organizations often lose credibility, it's it's not in making a difficult decision. It's when communication is delayed, or lacks humanity. So people can accept uncertainty, but what they struggle to accept is silence or mixed messages or feeling
Introsapien: Yeah, next message.
Anyuta DHIR: like they were treated as numbers instead of people. And whenever I've supported organizations through change, my advice has always been the same: communicate clearly, communicate honestly, communicate consistently, and never forget that every employee leaving the organization is still a human being whose story continues beyond that day. How
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: people leave your organization is just as important as how they join it. Because today's exiting employee. Maybe tomorrow's customer's partner.
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: or customer himself or brand ambassador
Introsapien: Hmm. Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: or even you know return back as a future employee
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: and that's why I believe organizations shouldn't think about exit management they should think about relationship management because what goes around comes around.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And when organizations genuinely acknowledge emotions, provide support, help employees transition with dignity and remain authentic through the process, trust can be rebuilt. Maybe not overnight, but you know, certainly over time. Because credibility isn't restored through press releases. it's restored through consistent human behavior.
Introsapien: I think I got my promo moment from the podcast. So Now you impact both at the individual leadership level and organization wide, Now, you know, one of my observations has been that as organizations undergo change, for some individuals it might feel disruptive. Many make errors of judgment, as we would say, during these testing times. And when we go down to fundamentals, we discover that those errors of judgment are minimized when people nurture diverse. and strong relationships within the other. But the question is, are there early warning signs of relationship breakdowns and wouldn't having them be a good idea?
Anyuta DHIR: You know, of course, In fact, relationships rarely break overnight. And the challenge is that organizations often notice the outcome but they miss the signals. And that's why I encourage leaders to become observers of behaviors rather than simply managers of performance. And that's why I said it's not about managing the resource, it's about being humanely resourceful. So over the years I've started looking for what I called the trust radar. it's got five behavioral signals The first
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: is transparency. The second is respect. Small behaviors matter. The third is understanding. And the fourth is support. Managers become unavailable. And colleagues stop helping one another,
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: and psychological safety declines, and people become reluctant to ask for help and
Introsapien: So
Anyuta DHIR: finally, trust itself. People begin questioning intentions rather than actions, they become cautious, guarded. And emotionally disconnected from the organization. So
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: when I see two or three of these signals together, I know that the relationship needs attention, not because it's broken, but because it's asking for care. And the good news is that the most relationship breakdowns are preventable.
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: Only if leaders notice these early signals and respond to them with empathy, honest conversation, and timely action, trust can often be rebuilt before disengagement takes hold. And in my
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: experience, organizations that create regular opportunities for dialogue, feedback, coaching, and genuine connection, they don't just manage relationships better. They build cultures that are more resilient during change.
Introsapien: Yeah. You know, we w when when I started out with Empinetics Research Labs, this this is the the kind of question that that we were trying to answer. That how do you bring in early warning signs? how are you gonna measure? and be able to be stay a step ahead? And so we built a framework. Called the interpersonal trust growth framework. And what it does is it brings in this entire idea of discovering early warning signs in relationship breakdowns. Bring this, and instead of looking at from macro lens, bring it down to micro levels where relationships exist, which means at the unit level, at the interpersonal level. so at each individual level, they would be able to look at. With whom they have a relationship. So they that's a social network context. And then what is the quality of that relationship? Which means what is the trust equation based on that? What is the quality of that relationship? And is that relationship improving or or not improving, stuck, or is it depreciating? And if you now you look at hundreds of employees data across hundreds of people, all anonymized you get. an an organizational dashboard to say how is trust across your organization really doing and there's so many ways because you have data at the unit level and at interpersonal level. Now you can combine this information in so many ways and and and represent so the whole idea of being able to provide somebody the the ability to first of all is it necessary? Looks like yeah it's a good idea. That you should have early warning signs of relationship breakdowns. what are the factors that you want to assess? You gave a list of attributes, I and then you apply a model or a framework that you pick up data on, a tool to collect this data. I think that that is something that we have been trying to do at at MPinet X. Now, considering our theme today, which is human versus systems, and and you talked about people systems and and how passionate you are. My question is when systems break, what breaks first? Process or people?
Anyuta DHIR: Well I actually think neither breaks first. Trust breaks first.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: And once trust begins to erode, everything else follows. Because processes don't suddenly stop working because the process itself is flawed. People don't suddenly disengage because they wake up one morning feeling disconnected. Usually there are, gradual breakdowns in trust. Employees stop believing, they'll be heard, managers stop having honest conversations, leaders become less visible, communication becomes selective, decisions become less transparent. And that's when people begin protecting themselves rather than supporting one another. And when that happens,
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: Even the best design business systems start failing. And I've often seen organizations invest millions in new technology, restructuring, AI, or process improvements. But if people don't trust the intent behind the change, adoption slows, collaboration declines, And the system hasn't failed, the human connection has. So at the same time, I don't believe that we should frame this as people versus business or process. That's a false choice.
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: Healthy organizations need both. Processes provide consistency, people provide adaptability, technology provides efficiency, and leadership provides direction. While
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: Culture provides the meaning. While all of these work together, organizations become resilient.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And that's why sustainable HR is so important. Its
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: role is to ensure that business systems and human systems evolve together rather than competing with each other. And because sustainable organizations don't optimize one at the expense of the other, they strengthen both.
Introsapien: Yeah. You know, this reminds me of one of my earlier employers, we had brilliant processes built, But every process after after some time fails because the needs have changed and hence the process has to change because the expectations change. there are two statements that I heard back. To back within the same month about a process from people who mattered like our customers. One is you are slaves of your process. And second is process-lived patient-like. what it told me is that process never matters. people matter. And one of the one of my friends who is now serves as a a judge. once he said to me So process and people again bring me back to the same philosophy, same thought process. I think even when you said trust breaks, what is actually breaking is the focus area has to be people all the time. And we think new technologies, new things that we bring in the organization is gonna make the organization better. Well, so let's see. So how do you see AI shaping HR? I I think everybody's talking about AI and HR, and everybody has a view. So I want to know what are your thoughts seeing AI shaping HR and I think a bigger question is how can organizations ensure that technology like AI makes HR more humane rather than less?
Anyuta DHIR: I actually see AI as one of the greatest opportunities HR has ever had. Not because it replaces people, because it allows HR to focus on people. And interestingly, I began my career as a software developer before moving into HR. So I've seen both sides of the equation: technology
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: and human behavior. And that perspective has taught me that technology by itself is never the transformation, it's it's simply an enabler. And every major technological shift, from ERP systems to cloud computing and digital transformation raised fears that people would become less important. Yet, what actually happened was the role of the people evolved. And I believe AI will do exactly that. In fact, even better. Today, HR professionals spend far too much time on repetitive and administrative work. You know, something like screening resumes, coordinating
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: interviews, answering routine employee queries, and generating reports and managing documentation. And these are exactly the kind of tasks AI can perform faster and often more accurately. And That creates space for HR to spend more time on truly what requires human judgment. You
Introsapien: That's great.
Anyuta DHIR: know, something like coaching leaders and developing talent and building culture and strengthening the trust that we spoke about so much, and help navigate difficult conversations and support employee well-being. But there's
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: an important condition. AI should augment human intelligence, not replace human empathy.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: If we use AI only to increase efficiency, we'll create faster organizations. But if we use AI to improve decision making while perceiving empathy, fairness, inclusion, and ethics, we'll create better organizations. that's the future I believe in. And That's why I often say that the future of HR isn't artificial intelligence.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: It's augmented humanity.
Introsapien: Which means the existential question for AI, and its application in HR, it's application in our lives. Obviously, it's gonna be through organizations, whether they are building it, whether as consumers or producers, in every way, I think the most Fundamental question for AI would be: would AI help human beings cooperate better or worse? my question to you is. through your journey as a founder you have a higher probability of living life stressful Every founder's life is far more stressful than any non-founders. So What has this journey so far taught you about human cooperation while you're such under tremendous pressure. Have you seen changes in you in the way you have dealt with people while you were working in the industry as part of Violia's Or now as I found, is there a change in the way you deal with human beings?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes. See, if there's one
Introsapien: Tell me.
Anyuta DHIR: thing entrepreneurship has taught me, it's this that people matter most when the pressure is highest. In the corporate life, you often have established systems and larger teams and structured support. But as a founder, you suddenly find yourself wearing every hat. That is a strategist, consultant, marketeer, finance person, content creator, salesperson, and sometimes even the technical support. And it's incredibly humbling. but what surprised me most wasn't the workload. It was how much progress depended on people. And I've
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: learned that no vision can be built alone. And behind every milestone are mentors who guided me, clients who trusted me, partners who collaborated with me, and friends who encouraged me, and family who stood by me And the biggest backup that I had was the team who believed in the work that they were doing with me, for me. So pressure has a unique way of revealing character. And one lesson I carry every day is that trust is built long before it's tested. And as a founder, I've become much more comfortable. With not having all the answers. Earlier in my career, I believe leaders needed to provide solutions. Today I believe leaders just need to create an environment where people will feel safe contributing solutions. And that shift has changed the way I lead. It has made me listen more, collaborate more, and appreciate the diversity of perspectives around me. Ultimately, entrepreneurship has taught me how to build relationships. And I believe businesses
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: grow because of relationships and not the other way around.
Introsapien: So if every HR leader listening today could remember just one message from you, what would you want it to be?
Anyuta DHIR: If I could leave every HR leader with just one thought, it would be this that never forget that behind every policy is a person, behind every metric is a human story, and behind every business strategy are people who make it possible. And the future of HR isn't about managing people. It's about enabling people to do their best while helping organizations achieve their purpose sustainably. As
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: HR leaders, we have an incredible responsibility. We don't just shape careers, we shape cultures, we influence leadership, we build trust, we build organizations, navigate uncertainty, and in many ways, we shape the future of work itself. So my message is simple. Don't wait for HR to be invited into the boardroom. Build so much business value that your presence becomes indispensable. Learn that language of business, understand technology, embrace AI, champion sustainability, measure impact. But through it all, never lose your humanity because technology will continue to evolve, business models will continue to evolve, and workplaces will continue to evolve. But the one thing that will never change. People will always remember how leaders made them feel. And I truly believe that organizations which put people, purpose, and performance together, not one at the expense of the other, will be the ones that thrive in the future. And that's the philosophy behind sustainable HR. And that's the philosophy behind Sustainera being humanely resourceful.
Introsapien: Okay, so coming coming to Sustainera, being humanely resourceful. When should people reach out to you, Anuta?
Anyuta DHIR: So I'd say they should reach out when they're ready to move beyond managing HR and start transforming their organization through people. At Sustainera,
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: we believe that sustainable business or successful business happens when people, purpose, planet, and performance grow together. And we work with organizations of all sizes, the way I said, from startups to MSMEs to large enterprises. And they are asking questions like, how do we build future ready workforce and how do we integrate ESG into our people strategy or how do we prepare leaders and employees of for AI and how do we strengthen culture and trust during change and how do we attract, engage and retain the right talent, and ultimately how do we make HR a true business partner? And that's where we come in. We don't just help organizations solve today's HR challenges, we help them prepare for tomorrow's opportunities
Introsapien: So yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Anyuta DHIR: And we just don't do consulting. We also develop we've developed some IPs and we've developed some IP frameworks, practical learning programs, such as the seven step career success framework for professionals to build sustainable careers, and the eight steps to sustainable HR framework for HR leaders and organization decision makers, because we believe transformation should be practical, measurable, and accessible. And whether someone needs strategic HR advisory, ESG integration, leadership development, AI readiness, HR audits, employer branding, capability building, or simply a fresh perspective on their people's strategy. We'd be delighted to partner with with them. And at the heart of everything we do is one basic belief that businesses become extraordinary when they invest in people. With the same seriousness that they invest in strategy, technology, and growth. So if you're looking to build an organization that's not just successful today, but sustainable tomorrow, we'd love to have that conversation with you.
Introsapien: Great. And page links are in the description below to sustain a and other page links as well. Now, Anita IC Synergy, since it is imperative that organizations discover early warning signs of relationship breakdowns, as we spoke a moment ago. I think sustainable HR may very well encompass sustainable relational well-being between stakeholders as well.
Anyuta DHIR: Of course, the focus is helping organizations grow sustainability by putting people at the heart of the business success. So I think it would pan out.
Introsapien: Yeah. Thank you, Anyuta. This has been a gratifying morning. Thank you for gracing Introsapian and enriching our listeners.
Anyuta DHIR: Thank you, Tarun. It's been a wonderful conversation. If there's one belief I'd like to leave everyone with, it's the that the future of business will not be shaped by technology alone and not by strategy alone. It will be shaped by organizations that have the courage to put people, purpose, and performance on the same agenda. And of course, with the planet at the core of it all. And that's the journey we're on at Sustainera, helping organizations become future-ready by being humane. mainly resourceful because in the end organizations don't build people, people build organizations. And when we invest in people thoughtfully, responsibly and sustainably, everyone grows. Employees, business, communities, and society and a country as a whole. So thank you for having me. Thank you very much.
Introsapien: Well said. Thank you, Anyuta.
Anyuta DHIR: Thank you Tarun, it's wonderful to be here. And just a slight correction. My name is pronounced as Anuta and the last name is Dheer. Yes.
Introsapien: Dhir. I practiced it so many times, but being from Bengal, I am more used to saying dhir. And I and I just couldn't bring myself to say dhar, of course, and dhir, and I said something in between.
Anyuta DHIR: All right. So thank you, Tarun, and it's wonderful to be here.
Introsapien: Let's talk a bit about you. You started off as a software developer in the late nineties. And while building HR SAS, you fell in love with the learning and development domain. And then Steria India happened, Tell me more about your time there at Steria.
Anyuta DHIR: actually it's very interesting because when I look back, none of it was actually planned. I started my career as a software developer in the late nineties and at that time when technology was rapidly transforming business, I enjoyed solving problems through technology. But what fascinated me even more was understanding the people who use those systems. And while working on HR and learning management systems and implementations, I realized technology doesn't transform organizations. People do. And that curiosity slowly pulled me towards HR. And joining Sterea India became a defining milestone in that journey. And Sterea wasn't just another HR role for me. In fact, it was where I truly understood the strategic side of human resources and had the opportunity to work across leadership development, talent management, organizational effectiveness, and large-scale people transformation initiatives in a truly global environment. So what stood out was that every business challenge eventually came back to people. And whether we were driving business growth or managing change or improving customer outcomes, success depended on how effectively leaders engaged, developed, and inspired their teams. That experience completely changed my perspective and I stopped seeing HR as a support function. And in fact, I started seeing it as a business function, one that could influence productivity, innovation, culture, and ultimately profitability. And looking looking back today, I often say my software background taught me how systems work, but sterea taught me how people systems work and When one understands both I think I started seeing the organizations very differently. And I think that's where the seeds of what I now call sustainable HR was first planted, although I didn't have that language for it back then. And Today, after nearly three decades across fifteen industries, and across five continents, I still believe that businesses don't transform because technologies change. They transform because people choose to change.
Introsapien: Choice. People choose to change and therefore change happens no matter what you do with technology and no matter what you bring to the table. so I think looks like brilliant to have that kind of exposure so early on in life. And then I see that your experience. really diversified after that. I mean your exposure went from IT services to food and beverages industry then to hospitals and healthcare and then environmental causes. as you said that styria is probably where the seeds of sustainable HR got sowed. But I see a lot of synergy between sustainability and environmental causes. So what role did Violia play in your life?
Anyuta DHIR: when you talk about me crossing the industry domains and I think it my true calling was actually HR. HR found me, then I found HR. While technology opened the door, but people gave me a purpose. And once I experienced the impact that great leadership and great culture could have on business outcomes, I knew I'd found my calling. And talking about Veolia, I would say Veolia didn't give me my calling. Give my calling a name. And by the time I joined Veolia, I'd already worked across multiple industries, which you just enumerated: FMCG, IT, healthcare manufacturing, ed tech, fintech, SaaS, and eventually environment at Veolia. What I understood was every industry had different business models, but the one thing remained constant. Which was every business challenge, eventually became a people challenge. And whether it was attracting the right talent, building leadership capability, or managing change, or creating an engaging culture, the solution always started and ended with people. And then Veolia happened to me. And for the first time, I was working for an organization whose very purpose was sustainability.
Introsapien: So
Anyuta DHIR: And Veolia is world number one in environmental services. So we were not talking about we were not talking about sustainability as a CSR initiative or an annual report. We were living it every single day. And whether it was water conservation, hazardous waste management, circular economy, or environmental responsibility, sustainability was embedded into every business decision. And that's when I had my biggest realization. I realized that while organizations were investing Heavily in ESG, very few were asking one simple question, which is who is going to make ESG successful? And that answer was obvious to me. It was people. And if people are the ones delivering ESG, then HR cannot sit on the sidelines. HR has to become one of the biggest drivers of sustainability. And that realization completely changed the way how I looked at my profession. I stopped thinking about HR as a managing employees function and started thinking about HR as a business supporting and building sustainable organizations. And that's really where the philosophy of sustainable HR began to take shape.
Introsapien: So who owns it in the organization? Is it the HR who owns it? Or is it the business? Who is the Piper? Who's the king?
Anyuta DHIR: HR is owned by everybody. It is very simple, you know.
Introsapien: But who is going to be accountable first? Like where does the buck stop looking looking at CSR as a much larger responsibility or ESG as part of CSR, whichever way they look at. So who's gonna own it up? HR is gonna execute. Right? Or HR owns it up.
Anyuta DHIR: If I told you everything about ESG in an organization, when an organization goes about reporting it, okay, and the different parameters, worldwide on an average, forty to sixty percent of these reporting parameters were people-centric and people-dependent, what would your answer be?
Introsapien: Forty two.
Anyuta DHIR: 60%. If you take the world reporting standards and an average of all of these reporting standards across the globe, including the US and India. And if I were to tell you that sustainability is a bigger picture and CSR is just a subset, and the entire you know, the metrics that need to be reported, up to 60 percent.
Introsapien: To this inside, well, I'm trying to understand if this is less or more. Is that what you're asking? Is sixty percent less?
Anyuta DHIR: No, no, I'm asking the same question that you asked me. So, you are asking me about
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: who would be leading it, who would be owning it. So, it is the answer is it's going to be owned by the people. HR is not just an executioner, and the biggest problem in the world today is, businesses are successful because of people. People are not executioners,
Introsapien: Same.
Anyuta DHIR: people decide, people own. People thrive and
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: people deliver. And that's how we make Google's and Microsoft's and Tatas and Birlas of the world.
Introsapien: Yeah, I mean it it's really a rhetorical question and for all business owners to ask this question themselves and the answer that you have given Anyota is is beautiful. if you're asking that question, then the responsibility is yours, of course. If you're not asking that question, then there's a problem. So first of all, everybody should be asking that question, and whoever is asking that question, yeah, you have a role to play. I mean that's a beautiful answer. Then you founded Sustainera, After Violia, through which you championed the cause of sustainable HR. So could you unpack this for us? I think you you said a few things but when it comes to this this term sustainable HR. I think people should be able to quickly imagine or conjure up a an image or what encompasses sustainable HR. So could you unpack this for us? What what do we mean by sustainable H?
Anyuta DHIR: That's one of the questions that I'm asked the most, and I'm always happy to answer it because sustainable HR means different things to different people.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: And for me, sustainable HR is about building organizations that don't just deliver profits today, but continue creating value for people, businesses, society, and the planet for years to come.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: And traditionally, HR has focused on attracting talent, managing performance, ensuring compliance and improving engagement. Those are all important. But today's business environment demands much, much, much more. And we are dealing with climate change, we are dealing with AI disruption, we are dealing with changing workforce expectations, skill shortages, mental health concerns, and diversity and inclusion because the world is reducing into a small global village. And increasing pressure from investors regulators and customers. So these are no longer isolated business issues, they are people issues. And that's where sustainable HR comes in. I define sustainable HR as the integration of environmental, social, and governance, which is the ESG principles, into every stage of the employee lifecycle, from hire to retire. And this is with one single goal to create long-term value for people, purpose, and planet, and the overall business performance. So it's not about adding another HR initiative, it's about rethinking how we recruit, onboard, develop, reward, engage, and lead people so that every HR decision contributes to building a more responsible and resilient organization. So let me just put in a quick example here. Sustainable hiring means hiring fairly and inclusively. Sustainable learning means preparing people for future skills like AI, green jobs, and ethical leadership. Sustainable performance means measuring not just what people achieve, but how they achieve it. And sustainable rewards recognize these behaviors that create a long term impact, not just short term results. So, sustainable HR isn't a separate strategy. It is the people strategy that enables business sustainability. And that's the philosophy behind Sustainera. And it's also the foundation of the work I do with organizations across sectors.
Introsapien: Could we could we take an example of like for listeners, a lot of this would be words that they might be they they might come across for the first time. Or maybe words that they have become immune to, like sustainability is a word probably the world has become immune to. our our ears don't perk up when we hear the word sustainability anymore. so if we have to look at in a where it's been implemented, or you have examples where you can look at an organization doing something and say, look at this organization. And in my sustainability HR, let's say index, if you have, let's say you have a sustain error index, and you look at a few factors on which factors you'll say if these are the five factors you're doing well, then you get a 10 on 10. So, what are some of one or two factors that you will look at in sustainability? When you say a company is practicing. the the ideology of sustainable HR, some examples of real world maybe where you have applied or you have come across some of the organizations that are practicing some
Anyuta DHIR: Okay, so there are lots of companies out there who are doing a lot of sustainable HR practices, starting from Vic Vipro, IKEA, Tata Suns, lots of them. But if I were to talk about, certain intricate aspects, I just want you to understand that, you know, every ESG goal, whether it's reducing carbon emissions or improving diversity or strengthening ethics or enhancing the employee well-being or ensuring responsible governance, it depends on human behavior. And human behavior in an organization is influenced by HR. So now talking about examples, if we want More diverse workforce, HR recruits it. If we want ethical leaders, HR develops them. If we employees to embrace sustainability, HR would build that culture through learning, communication, recognition, and leadership. And if we want governance to be more transparent, HR embeds those values into performance management, succession planning, leadership development, and organizational culture. So in fact ESG may be reported by sustainability teams, but it is delivered by the people and people are always enabled by HR. So I hope that answer answered your question.
Introsapien: Yeah, and let's see if we can also bring in any examples of companies who are applying some of the principles that you hold relevant and important towards sustainable nature,
Anyuta DHIR: IKEA is one of them. It's on the chart top of the chart. So if one goes and Googles IKEA and sustainability goals, they'll be able to see a lot what IKEA has done.
Introsapien: in fact, ICAR reminds me of another company, IDO. And when it comes to IDO, we think about design and everything human-centered. So there's a phrase around the same time when I heard about design thinking and ideo. is human centered organizational design. do we have a definition that we all agree on today?
Anyuta DHIR: See, I actually think we use the term human centered quite loosely today and that's where the confusion begins. And
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: many people assume human centered means being employee friendly or creating a great place to work. While those are certainly outcomes, I believe it goes much, much deeper than that. And to me, human-centered organizational design is about designing every aspect of an organization around enabling people to do their best work while achieving sustainable business outcomes. And and notice I said and not instead of.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: So sometimes organizations create policies that make people happy but don't help the business. Others
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: focus only on business efficiency and forget about the human experience, and neither approach is sustainable. A truly human-centered organization creates a balance between the needs of the business and the needs of its people. And that means designing work, leadership, technology. processes, rewards, learning and culture in a way that allows both people and the organization to thrive. So you know for example, flexible work isn't human-centered because simply because employees like it. It's human-centered when it's designed to improve the well-being, the trust, the productivity, the collaboration and the business performance simultaneously. And similarly, AI isn't human centered just because it automates work. It becomes human centered when it removes repetitive tasks, reduces biases, enables better decision making and gives managers more time for meaningful conversations. So human centered design is not about putting people first before business. It's about
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: recognizing that businesses succeed because people succeed.
Introsapien: Yeah. And there's a there's another point emerging from what you said, what what you're saying and And it connects very well with what we see as how HRs function, unfortunately, in in in many organizations. And that is it's it's not about imitating practices. In in yes, best practices, of course, we want to imitate, but it is not really about imitating best practices, it is about the intent. What is the impact? Because you know best what impact you want and therefore you know best what should be the metric and you apply practices, frameworks, you want to apply. I think that's what is emerging from what you're saying, that human centered organisational design is not about just putting tools like AI. It is the application of it and What's the impact on o on people?
Anyuta DHIR: Yeah, so you know, that's where sustainable HR aligns beautifully with human centered design. We don't see people as resources to be managed. We see them as partners in creating long term organizational value.
Introsapien: that brings me to a question that is often asked, which is or or a concern that is we view HR traditionally as a cost center, right? But we also have been talking about that HR should become a a strategic value creator or strategic partner that directly contributes to growth. But it I'm not sure if people really understand what it really means to be a strategic value creator. Do you wanna talk about that a little bit?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes, I have a slightly provocative view on this and I don't think HR has a branding problem.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: I think HR has a business language problem. For decades, we've measured success through HR metrics like headcount, attrition, time-to-hire, training hours, engagement scores. While these are important operational indicators, they are not the language that CEOs, boards, or investors use to elevate or evaluate business success. Business leaders usually ask different questions, you know, something like how do we improve productivity, how do we increase profitability, how do we reduce business risks, or how do we accelerate innovation, and how do we retain critical talent and build future capability? So, if HR wants a seat at the strategy table, it must demonstrate how people's decisions influence these business outcomes. And over the years, I've seen firsthand that when HR aligns its strategy with business priorities, the impact is transformational. And one example I'm very particularly proud of helping position HR. as a strategic partner in winning a 15 crore business contract. and that's wasn't because HR recruited faster. It was because we demonstrated that our people capability, culture, and talent strategy gave the client that confidence that we could successfully deliver the project. And that's when it struck me that people strategy is business strategy. And today HR has an even bigger an opportunity. You know, with AI, ESG, workforce transformation and changing employee expectations, HR is uniquely positioned to shape the future of work. But to do that, we need to move beyond policies and start influencing business decisions. And for me, sustainable HR is exactly that. Because when HR helps grow revenue, reduces risk, improves productivity, and strengthen leadership. that automatically builds organizational resilience and it's no longer a cost center. And it becomes one of the organization's greatest value creators.
Introsapien: Is it is it still a hard sell to organizations?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes, because they look at HR only as a mere coordinator. They expect a lot from HR, but they are not ready to hear HR.
Introsapien: Why is this why are we still stuck in that? I have been seeing this well, I I have been on the other side, on the business side, And today on this side of the table, and everybody we think about or talk to about in business, they don't have a great view of HR. Why is that not changing when we know that HR's role in an organization is now Well, I I think I made a prediction. I'm guessing that my prediction that I made in 2020 will someday come true that one day CHROs will become the most sought-after CEOs of organizations. If we're heading to that direction, then the least we want to see today is that HR is is is an incredibly serious function in an organization. Why does HR keep becoming the passenger when HR actually is the driver? What's happening?
Anyuta DHIR: See, actually businesses still look at people as resources to be managed.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: And you know, people are not resources to be managed. In fact, you know, people are if you give them enough resourcefulness. They would be the ones who will be build you know building your business. And businesses succeed because people succeed. So till the time we don't take out the resources from the humanness and replace it with resourcefulness, I think organizations will reduce its strongest power in people as a mere, you know, resource that they need to manage. And you know, now I'm just Getting to the point, and that's why I chose the phrase for my company and my tagline as being humanely resourceful. Doesn't that lead all of us through our lives? Because we are being humanely resourceful and that makes us go places. So if
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: I bring this term in the organization rather than human resources, I am reduced to just one something like a capital input into the organization. I'm not. For me, it's more than a tagline. It's a leadership philosophy. It reminds us that organizations need to be resourceful in achieving business goals. And that's what makes them resilient. They may never lose sight of the human beings who make these goals possible. And when we combine empathy with accountability and purpose with performance, we create organizations that are not only successful, but resilient and sustainable.
Introsapien: Right. Yeah,
Anyuta DHIR: I hope it answers the question.
Introsapien: absolutely. So after Violia you chose to build an independent people centered advisory. You got your insights, hint. spark at styria and then violia kinda gave it a shape as you said gave it a language but then you chose to build an independent people centered advisory practice rather than stay inside conventional corporate structures. Why why this shift?
Anyuta DHIR: Because I was inspired by Mahatma Gandhi's quote is to be the change you want to see. And I have seen HR being ill-treated in almost you know every size of organization and at least people look at HR from the same lens. And that's the question I started reflecting on deeply before making the decision that I did. I did I genuinely
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: enjoyed my corporate journey. Every organization I work with taught me something valuable, and I was fortunate to work with inspiring leaders, diverse industries, and global teams. So this wasn't about walking away from the corporate, it was about walking towards a larger purpose. And by then I had spent almost over two and a half decades helping organizations solve people challenges. But I also noticed something interesting, and that was regardless the industry or the geography, the conversations were becoming remarkably similar. So organizations were asking: how do we attract and retain talent? How do we build future-ready leaders? How do we embrace AI without losing the human touch? How do we integrate ESG into business? And how do we create cultures where people and performance grow together? And that's where I realized that you know these were. Were not company-specific problems, these were global challenges. And I wanted freedom to work across industries, collaborate with leaders from different zones and sectors, and help organizations build sustainable people practices rather than solving. Isolated HR issues. And that's why I founded Sustainera being humanely resourceful. And the purpose is simple to help organizations build workplaces where people, purpose, planet and performance grow together. And also organizations understand how HR can work as a profit center and not as a cost center. And today we partner with organizations of every size, from startups to MSMEs to large enterprises, not just on HR processes, but on creating future-ready organizations through sustainable HR, ESG integration, AI-enabled people practices, leadership development, employer branding, and workforce transformation. So for me, Sustainera isn't just a consulting fall. It's a platform to influence the future of work, people, individuals, HR professionals, stakeholders, decision makers, board members, and all of this one member at a time, and all of this one organization at a time.
Introsapien: And how long has it been since?
Anyuta DHIR: it's been over two years and it's been one of the most rewarding phases of my career. like every founder, I've experienced uncertainty, long days, highs and lows, and I've had to wear multiple hats, but it's also given me the opportunity to build something that's deeply aligned with my values. And I think human resources is is omnipresent and Sustainable HR thrives where the humanely resourcefulness exists.
Introsapien: So what's what's happening at organizations today? Let's let's start with there's a lot of chatter about trust these days, isn't it? specifically institutional trust. And why not? Like Tata Trust. Once you have established that, you reap the benefits for a long time in every way. So the Growing emphasis on organizational trust is not without reason. So for starters, wearing your 360 lens, how in your observation has employee expectation changed in the last few years in India? And let's see if we can compare it against any other nation.
Anyuta DHIR: Okay. I believe we've witnessed the biggest shift in the employer employee relationship in the last decade than we've seen in the previous three decades combined. And
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: employees primarily looked at three things a stable job, a competitive compensation, and a career growth. So today these are just the starting point. And employees are asking much deeper questions, deeper questions, like something like Do I trust this organization? Do I belong here? Will this company invest in my growth? Does its purpose align with my values? And can I be authentic? Can I be my authentic self at work? So, in other words, relationship has evolved from a transaction to a partnership. And that's why institutional trust has become so important. People don't build trust because an organization says trust us. They build trust when they consistently experience fairness, transparency, empathy, and accountability. And in India, we are seeing a fascinating transformation. You know, traditionally, Indian employees value job security and also organizational stability. But today, especially among younger professionals, purpose, flexibility, learning opportunities, leadership authenticity, well-being, and meaningful work have become equally important. And when I compare this
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: with many mess western markets, the direction is remarkably similar. the difference is one of maturity rather than intent. European organizations have been discussing well being, inclusion, and sustainability for a very long time. India, on the other hand, is moving at an incredible speed. We are adopting AI, hybrid work, ESG, and digital transformation simultaneously, which makes our workforce expectations evolve much faster. And interestingly, despite culture differences, one expectation is becoming universal. That people want to work for organizations they can trust, and trust isn't built through communication campaigns. It is
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: through everyday leadership behavior. And employees watch whether leaders do what they say, whether difficult decisions are handled fairly. Whether diverse voices are genuinely heard, and whether the organization lives its values when times are tough and not just when business is good. So for me, trust has become one of the strongest competitive advantages an organization can build. Because when employees trust the organization, they contribute much more, innovate more, collaborate more, and stay longer. And ultimately that's what sustainable HR is also all about. Creating workplaces where trust becomes a part of the culture rather than an initiative.
Introsapien: Yeah. One counter insight that I have. from my observations and working with companies and clients is that when it comes to this whole idea of employee expectation changing from stability which is what my generation looked at. And the generation today and the next after that, they're not really looking for stability. They're looking for what happens after you've got stability. And that is because, there is an environment, whether it's parental or it's government provided, there is a cushion. and so the question is whether is that is is that temporary? Or is that permanent? if that becomes temporary, will employees ex employee expectations fall back to in the master's hierarchy, right? The that question is is is a counter insight, and probably it comes more from the naysayers, That is because, hey, look, we want the world to progress in a way that we don't want to be caught up in a state where saying in our days we used to have it hard, so the new generation also should have it hard. No, teach them history, that what it took. for us to get here. But now that we are here, there's no point of you going back and restarting. Build from here, one of the reasons why this is important for people, I think, that we should be a lot more accepting, tolerant of new generations and it and it impacts how we look at justice and fairness. How do we treat Gen Z, generalize them maybe they they don't think They don't have rationality. And then at the other end, we say, look, they are smarter than everybody else. We don't want to put them on either extreme. We just want to say every five years, every 10 years, every 25 years, you will have these generation changes and you want to see those expectations change. Okay, with that, let me let me come to organizations. Now while employees are changing because anointments are changing, organizations are also changing, Because change is either timely, that means we we undergo change willingly, or it's late, which means it is forced. But there is always a change, which brings us to the hard part, which is culture change. So, as an advisor, Anyta, when you when you work with your clients, what part of culture work in your experience is often overestimated or misunderstood by a clients. In other words, what's the hard part of bringing culture change in any organization?
Anyuta DHIR: Well, I think the biggest misconception about culture is that it's something you can launch as a project. Culture is not a program. It's it's it's not a town hall, it's not a poster on the wall, and it certainly isn't a list of values printed in the employee handbook. culture
Introsapien: Thank you.
Anyuta DHIR: is simply how people behave when no one is watching. So what I often see is that organizations invest heavily in defining values, running engagement campaigns or can conducting culture workshops, expecting behaviors to change overnight. But behaviors don't change overnight because we communicate new values. You know, it's like making a new year resolution for an individual. That's what we're doing with organizations. Behaviors change when systems around people reinforce those values. Consistently. There has to be a whole framework to support that. You know, for example, imagine an organization says we value collaboration, but the promotion is based only on individual performance. Or they say innovation is encouraged, but employees are punished every time an experiment fails. Or they
Introsapien: Yes.
Anyuta DHIR: talk about inclusion. And yet the same voices dominate every leadership meeting.
Introsapien: Yes.
Anyuta DHIR: Then employees don't believe what the organization says. They believe
Introsapien: No.
Anyuta DHIR: what the organization rewards, recognizes, measures, and tolerates. And that's why I you know, I often tell my clients that culture is not built by communication, it's built by consistency, it's by it's built by walking the talk. And consistency comes from aligning leadership behavior, mostly top-down, HR practices, performance, and then all of the that follows with it: rewards, recognition, decision-making, and governance. So culture change isn't difficult because people resist change. It's difficult because organizations often expect people to change while keeping the systems exactly the same.
Introsapien: See, this I think this idea has been evangelized within the industry. A lot of seminars, I'm sure a lot of these big HR shows, A lot of those HR conclaves, these conversations have happened. And and so businesses have brought in stalwarts, sometimes directly by hiring celebrity CHROs, sometimes by hiring organizations like Sustainera or Empinetics Which means millions of dollars being poured in, h hundreds of thousands here and millions elsewhere. Now how but but still a lot of these culture transformation programs fail, right? Despite significant investments in these change initi initiatives. Why? What's really happening?
Anyuta DHIR: Because many organizations focus on visible culture rather than the embedded culture. The way I said walk the talk is missing. They invest in workshops, they do a lot of branding, they do a lot of events, communication campaigns. They are important, but they only influence awareness. It's like doing cosmetics, it's like me doing a makeup and the inside doesn't change. So You know, those are important, but they only influence awareness. Real culture, real culture transformation happens when organizations redesign the systems that shape the daily behavior. If the leadership behavior doesn't change, if the performance metrics don't change, if managers aren't held accountable. If rewards don't reinforce the desired culture, then employees receive mixed signals. And eventually they stop believing in transformation. And this is the one lesson I've learned over the years is people don't resist change.
Introsapien: Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: They resist inconsistency. That's the bottom line.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: When leaders say one thing but reward another, trust declines, engagement drops, and transformation loses credibility. And that's why
Introsapien: Yes. Yes.
Anyuta DHIR: Sustainable HR places such emphasis on aligning the entire employee lifecycle within the organization's purpose and values from recruiting to onboarding to leadership development to performance, rewards, succession planning and recognition. And only then does culture become something that people experience every day rather than something they hear about once every quarter. you know that That if systems don't change, the culture won't change either.
Introsapien: Hm hm. Right. it's do what you promise and what you promise you deliver.
Anyuta DHIR: Yeah, so it starts with leadership behavior. Employees observe leaders every single day. They align the HR systems like recruitment, onboarding, learning, performance recognition, and leadership development with the behaviors that are wanted to be seen. So culture isn't in isn't created in HR. It's reinforced
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: through every decision the organization makes.
Introsapien: Right, right. Now w where there's change, there's bound to be disagreements, difficult decisions. So I have I have two questions here. first is what does healthy disagreement look like in leadership teams? How about we take an example?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes. I actually believe that healthy disagreements is one of the strongest indicators of a healthy leadership team. When every leader agrees with every decision, you know, I become more concerned than reassured. And because organizations don't need more agreement. They need better thinking. And
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: healthy dis disagreements isn't about conflict always. It's about having a psychological safety to challenge ideas without threatening relationships.
Introsapien: Is there is there an example that comes to your mind from s something you would have observed, either experienced or observed?
Anyuta DHIR: See, whether it's governments negotiating with each other or business leaders debating strategy, mature leadership isn't measured by the absence of disagreement. It's measured by the ability to disagree respectfully when remaining committed, you know, to the shared objective.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: So that's exactly what high-performing leadership teams do. The best executive teams I've worked with have, you know, never been the ones where everyone thought alike. In fact, they were the ones where people brought different perspectives to the table, and then once a decision was made, aligned completely behind it. So
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: I often tell leadership teams that debate in the boardroom, unite in the marketplace. And that's the difference. Difference between constructive disagreement and organizational politics. So healthy disagreements ask what's best for the organization, and unhealthy disagreements ask how do I prove that I'm right. And one is driven by purpose, the other is driven by ego.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And as leaders, we have to create environments where people feel safe saying, I see this differently. without worrying that they'll be labeled as difficult or disloyal because innovation, better decisions and stronger governance all begin with the courage to question.
Introsapien: Right, right. I and I'm watching a lot of news right now because our Prime Minister is traveling And I I like the way he disagrees with the portus and we are still trading with them. the American president can only shower words of praises at him. I think that is an example that I look at, and I think that that is and real life matters, there are real life consequences of decisions, you're pushing back, yet you're holding your head high and you're you're keeping. a friendly environment while maintaining leverage. I think that's that's important. Without having a strong leverage, it is impossible for people to disagree. And so I I think this is what I'm observing if there has to be healthy disagreement in the boardroom, or at home. then each party has to have leverage. Unless there is a leverage, there's either going to be tyranny, which means hierarchy. or surrender because I don't know How this is gonna play out, so I may not say it and so I leave it at that. So that therefore there is no disagreement, and that looks like a healthy decision that has happened because nobody disagreed. But in the end, you d agree, disagree, whatever you do, decisions have to be made. And in organizations, some of those decisions are difficult. in fact most of those decisions are difficult, like layoffs, and some of them don't end well. so any juicy story on this? Like has how has been your experience helping companies rebuild their credibility after emotionally charged repercussions, which may not have been intentional,
Anyuta DHIR: So I wish I had a juicy story to tell. But you know, after having put so many decades in HR, I've learned that stories worth telling are the ones that protect people's dignity and not expose their pain. Having
Introsapien: Yeah. Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: said that, I've certainly been part of difficult decisions, you know, restructuring businesses, transformations, role and organizational redesign. one thing I've learned is that employees don't judge organizations only by the decisions they make. They judge them by how those decisions are made.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And layoffs are rarely celebrated. They
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: affect careers, families, confidence, and a life, and lots of lives. But I've I've seen organizations emerge stronger not because they avoided difficult decisions, but because they handled them with transparency, empathy, fairness, and respect. And when organizations often lose credibility, it's it's not in making a difficult decision. It's when communication is delayed, or lacks humanity. So people can accept uncertainty, but what they struggle to accept is silence or mixed messages or feeling
Introsapien: Yeah, next message.
Anyuta DHIR: like they were treated as numbers instead of people. And whenever I've supported organizations through change, my advice has always been the same: communicate clearly, communicate honestly, communicate consistently, and never forget that every employee leaving the organization is still a human being whose story continues beyond that day. How
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: people leave your organization is just as important as how they join it. Because today's exiting employee. Maybe tomorrow's customer's partner.
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: or customer himself or brand ambassador
Introsapien: Hmm. Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: or even you know return back as a future employee
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: and that's why I believe organizations shouldn't think about exit management they should think about relationship management because what goes around comes around.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And when organizations genuinely acknowledge emotions, provide support, help employees transition with dignity and remain authentic through the process, trust can be rebuilt. Maybe not overnight, but you know, certainly over time. Because credibility isn't restored through press releases. it's restored through consistent human behavior.
Introsapien: I think I got my promo moment from the podcast. So Now you impact both at the individual leadership level and organization wide, Now, you know, one of my observations has been that as organizations undergo change, for some individuals it might feel disruptive. Many make errors of judgment, as we would say, during these testing times. And when we go down to fundamentals, we discover that those errors of judgment are minimized when people nurture diverse. and strong relationships within the other. But the question is, are there early warning signs of relationship breakdowns and wouldn't having them be a good idea?
Anyuta DHIR: You know, of course, In fact, relationships rarely break overnight. And the challenge is that organizations often notice the outcome but they miss the signals. And that's why I encourage leaders to become observers of behaviors rather than simply managers of performance. And that's why I said it's not about managing the resource, it's about being humanely resourceful. So over the years I've started looking for what I called the trust radar. it's got five behavioral signals The first
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: is transparency. The second is respect. Small behaviors matter. The third is understanding. And the fourth is support. Managers become unavailable. And colleagues stop helping one another,
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: and psychological safety declines, and people become reluctant to ask for help and
Introsapien: So
Anyuta DHIR: finally, trust itself. People begin questioning intentions rather than actions, they become cautious, guarded. And emotionally disconnected from the organization. So
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: when I see two or three of these signals together, I know that the relationship needs attention, not because it's broken, but because it's asking for care. And the good news is that the most relationship breakdowns are preventable.
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: Only if leaders notice these early signals and respond to them with empathy, honest conversation, and timely action, trust can often be rebuilt before disengagement takes hold. And in my
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: experience, organizations that create regular opportunities for dialogue, feedback, coaching, and genuine connection, they don't just manage relationships better. They build cultures that are more resilient during change.
Introsapien: Yeah. You know, we w when when I started out with Empinetics Research Labs, this this is the the kind of question that that we were trying to answer. That how do you bring in early warning signs? how are you gonna measure? and be able to be stay a step ahead? And so we built a framework. Called the interpersonal trust growth framework. And what it does is it brings in this entire idea of discovering early warning signs in relationship breakdowns. Bring this, and instead of looking at from macro lens, bring it down to micro levels where relationships exist, which means at the unit level, at the interpersonal level. so at each individual level, they would be able to look at. With whom they have a relationship. So they that's a social network context. And then what is the quality of that relationship? Which means what is the trust equation based on that? What is the quality of that relationship? And is that relationship improving or or not improving, stuck, or is it depreciating? And if you now you look at hundreds of employees data across hundreds of people, all anonymized you get. an an organizational dashboard to say how is trust across your organization really doing and there's so many ways because you have data at the unit level and at interpersonal level. Now you can combine this information in so many ways and and and represent so the whole idea of being able to provide somebody the the ability to first of all is it necessary? Looks like yeah it's a good idea. That you should have early warning signs of relationship breakdowns. what are the factors that you want to assess? You gave a list of attributes, I and then you apply a model or a framework that you pick up data on, a tool to collect this data. I think that that is something that we have been trying to do at at MPinet X. Now, considering our theme today, which is human versus systems, and and you talked about people systems and and how passionate you are. My question is when systems break, what breaks first? Process or people?
Anyuta DHIR: Well I actually think neither breaks first. Trust breaks first.
Introsapien: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Anyuta DHIR: And once trust begins to erode, everything else follows. Because processes don't suddenly stop working because the process itself is flawed. People don't suddenly disengage because they wake up one morning feeling disconnected. Usually there are, gradual breakdowns in trust. Employees stop believing, they'll be heard, managers stop having honest conversations, leaders become less visible, communication becomes selective, decisions become less transparent. And that's when people begin protecting themselves rather than supporting one another. And when that happens,
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: Even the best design business systems start failing. And I've often seen organizations invest millions in new technology, restructuring, AI, or process improvements. But if people don't trust the intent behind the change, adoption slows, collaboration declines, And the system hasn't failed, the human connection has. So at the same time, I don't believe that we should frame this as people versus business or process. That's a false choice.
Introsapien: Hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: Healthy organizations need both. Processes provide consistency, people provide adaptability, technology provides efficiency, and leadership provides direction. While
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: Culture provides the meaning. While all of these work together, organizations become resilient.
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: And that's why sustainable HR is so important. Its
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: role is to ensure that business systems and human systems evolve together rather than competing with each other. And because sustainable organizations don't optimize one at the expense of the other, they strengthen both.
Introsapien: Yeah. You know, this reminds me of one of my earlier employers, we had brilliant processes built, But every process after after some time fails because the needs have changed and hence the process has to change because the expectations change. there are two statements that I heard back. To back within the same month about a process from people who mattered like our customers. One is you are slaves of your process. And second is process-lived patient-like. what it told me is that process never matters. people matter. And one of the one of my friends who is now serves as a a judge. once he said to me So process and people again bring me back to the same philosophy, same thought process. I think even when you said trust breaks, what is actually breaking is the focus area has to be people all the time. And we think new technologies, new things that we bring in the organization is gonna make the organization better. Well, so let's see. So how do you see AI shaping HR? I I think everybody's talking about AI and HR, and everybody has a view. So I want to know what are your thoughts seeing AI shaping HR and I think a bigger question is how can organizations ensure that technology like AI makes HR more humane rather than less?
Anyuta DHIR: I actually see AI as one of the greatest opportunities HR has ever had. Not because it replaces people, because it allows HR to focus on people. And interestingly, I began my career as a software developer before moving into HR. So I've seen both sides of the equation: technology
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: and human behavior. And that perspective has taught me that technology by itself is never the transformation, it's it's simply an enabler. And every major technological shift, from ERP systems to cloud computing and digital transformation raised fears that people would become less important. Yet, what actually happened was the role of the people evolved. And I believe AI will do exactly that. In fact, even better. Today, HR professionals spend far too much time on repetitive and administrative work. You know, something like screening resumes, coordinating
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: interviews, answering routine employee queries, and generating reports and managing documentation. And these are exactly the kind of tasks AI can perform faster and often more accurately. And That creates space for HR to spend more time on truly what requires human judgment. You
Introsapien: That's great.
Anyuta DHIR: know, something like coaching leaders and developing talent and building culture and strengthening the trust that we spoke about so much, and help navigate difficult conversations and support employee well-being. But there's
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: an important condition. AI should augment human intelligence, not replace human empathy.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: If we use AI only to increase efficiency, we'll create faster organizations. But if we use AI to improve decision making while perceiving empathy, fairness, inclusion, and ethics, we'll create better organizations. that's the future I believe in. And That's why I often say that the future of HR isn't artificial intelligence.
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: It's augmented humanity.
Introsapien: Which means the existential question for AI, and its application in HR, it's application in our lives. Obviously, it's gonna be through organizations, whether they are building it, whether as consumers or producers, in every way, I think the most Fundamental question for AI would be: would AI help human beings cooperate better or worse? my question to you is. through your journey as a founder you have a higher probability of living life stressful Every founder's life is far more stressful than any non-founders. So What has this journey so far taught you about human cooperation while you're such under tremendous pressure. Have you seen changes in you in the way you have dealt with people while you were working in the industry as part of Violia's Or now as I found, is there a change in the way you deal with human beings?
Anyuta DHIR: Yes. See, if there's one
Introsapien: Tell me.
Anyuta DHIR: thing entrepreneurship has taught me, it's this that people matter most when the pressure is highest. In the corporate life, you often have established systems and larger teams and structured support. But as a founder, you suddenly find yourself wearing every hat. That is a strategist, consultant, marketeer, finance person, content creator, salesperson, and sometimes even the technical support. And it's incredibly humbling. but what surprised me most wasn't the workload. It was how much progress depended on people. And I've
Introsapien: Yeah.
Anyuta DHIR: learned that no vision can be built alone. And behind every milestone are mentors who guided me, clients who trusted me, partners who collaborated with me, and friends who encouraged me, and family who stood by me And the biggest backup that I had was the team who believed in the work that they were doing with me, for me. So pressure has a unique way of revealing character. And one lesson I carry every day is that trust is built long before it's tested. And as a founder, I've become much more comfortable. With not having all the answers. Earlier in my career, I believe leaders needed to provide solutions. Today I believe leaders just need to create an environment where people will feel safe contributing solutions. And that shift has changed the way I lead. It has made me listen more, collaborate more, and appreciate the diversity of perspectives around me. Ultimately, entrepreneurship has taught me how to build relationships. And I believe businesses
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: grow because of relationships and not the other way around.
Introsapien: So if every HR leader listening today could remember just one message from you, what would you want it to be?
Anyuta DHIR: If I could leave every HR leader with just one thought, it would be this that never forget that behind every policy is a person, behind every metric is a human story, and behind every business strategy are people who make it possible. And the future of HR isn't about managing people. It's about enabling people to do their best while helping organizations achieve their purpose sustainably. As
Introsapien: Mm.
Anyuta DHIR: HR leaders, we have an incredible responsibility. We don't just shape careers, we shape cultures, we influence leadership, we build trust, we build organizations, navigate uncertainty, and in many ways, we shape the future of work itself. So my message is simple. Don't wait for HR to be invited into the boardroom. Build so much business value that your presence becomes indispensable. Learn that language of business, understand technology, embrace AI, champion sustainability, measure impact. But through it all, never lose your humanity because technology will continue to evolve, business models will continue to evolve, and workplaces will continue to evolve. But the one thing that will never change. People will always remember how leaders made them feel. And I truly believe that organizations which put people, purpose, and performance together, not one at the expense of the other, will be the ones that thrive in the future. And that's the philosophy behind sustainable HR. And that's the philosophy behind Sustainera being humanely resourceful.
Introsapien: Okay, so coming coming to Sustainera, being humanely resourceful. When should people reach out to you, Anuta?
Anyuta DHIR: So I'd say they should reach out when they're ready to move beyond managing HR and start transforming their organization through people. At Sustainera,
Introsapien: Mm-hmm.
Anyuta DHIR: we believe that sustainable business or successful business happens when people, purpose, planet, and performance grow together. And we work with organizations of all sizes, the way I said, from startups to MSMEs to large enterprises. And they are asking questions like, how do we build future ready workforce and how do we integrate ESG into our people strategy or how do we prepare leaders and employees of for AI and how do we strengthen culture and trust during change and how do we attract, engage and retain the right talent, and ultimately how do we make HR a true business partner? And that's where we come in. We don't just help organizations solve today's HR challenges, we help them prepare for tomorrow's opportunities
Introsapien: So yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Anyuta DHIR: And we just don't do consulting. We also develop we've developed some IPs and we've developed some IP frameworks, practical learning programs, such as the seven step career success framework for professionals to build sustainable careers, and the eight steps to sustainable HR framework for HR leaders and organization decision makers, because we believe transformation should be practical, measurable, and accessible. And whether someone needs strategic HR advisory, ESG integration, leadership development, AI readiness, HR audits, employer branding, capability building, or simply a fresh perspective on their people's strategy. We'd be delighted to partner with with them. And at the heart of everything we do is one basic belief that businesses become extraordinary when they invest in people. With the same seriousness that they invest in strategy, technology, and growth. So if you're looking to build an organization that's not just successful today, but sustainable tomorrow, we'd love to have that conversation with you.
Introsapien: Great. And page links are in the description below to sustain a and other page links as well. Now, Anita IC Synergy, since it is imperative that organizations discover early warning signs of relationship breakdowns, as we spoke a moment ago. I think sustainable HR may very well encompass sustainable relational well-being between stakeholders as well.
Anyuta DHIR: Of course, the focus is helping organizations grow sustainability by putting people at the heart of the business success. So I think it would pan out.
Introsapien: Yeah. Thank you, Anyuta. This has been a gratifying morning. Thank you for gracing Introsapian and enriching our listeners.
Anyuta DHIR: Thank you, Tarun. It's been a wonderful conversation. If there's one belief I'd like to leave everyone with, it's the that the future of business will not be shaped by technology alone and not by strategy alone. It will be shaped by organizations that have the courage to put people, purpose, and performance on the same agenda. And of course, with the planet at the core of it all. And that's the journey we're on at Sustainera, helping organizations become future-ready by being humane. mainly resourceful because in the end organizations don't build people, people build organizations. And when we invest in people thoughtfully, responsibly and sustainably, everyone grows. Employees, business, communities, and society and a country as a whole. So thank you for having me. Thank you very much.
Introsapien: Well said. Thank you, Anyuta.
