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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week's Intelligence Squared podcast features Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz journalist and author of Bibi - The Turbulent Life And Times Of Benjamin Netanyahu in conversation with Catherine Philp, diplomatic correspondent on The Times. In this in-depth podcast on the leadership and story of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, they discuss the state of modern Israel and the future of the Middle East.

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TRANSCRIPT

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00:00:29can design and install a secure smart home just for you hello I'm Catherine felt diplomatic correspondent for the times and welcome to the intelligence squared pole cost you can sign up for regular updates about po costs and other events at intelligence squared dot com I'm here with actual
00:00:46Pfeffer writer for Haaretz and the economist and author of be be the turbulent life and times of Benjamin Netanyahu uncial welcome to intelligence squares %HESITATION you couldn't because you couldn't have chosen a more apps time to be releasing a book about %HESITATION the Israeli prime minister he's a
00:01:06ubiquitous figure on the world stage these days but one of the very interesting things you touch on your book the people may not be aware of is a lot about his roots and where he came from %HESITATION and you you mention crucially that he is the first Israeli
00:01:21prime minister to actually be born in the state of Israel %HESITATION and you take us back to the roots of his grandfather and his father and you tell a story about where he's come from and how that fits into this Zionist narrative that he is is now projecting
00:01:40can you tell us about what you think about his background is most significant to who he is today with the book what I was trying to do besides to tell Netanyahu's story was right history of Israel in the %HESITATION in a slightly different way that it's been done
00:01:54until now it's it's not just convenient defending attorney how's life from his birth he was born in nineteen forty nine just fourteen months after the birth of Israel but the story of Israel has been told until now almost always see %HESITATION almost exclusively from the perspective of the
00:02:11founding generation of Israelis David Ben Gurion Golda Meira Moshe they act and these all members of the center left socialism and this movement which was the mainstream resign ism almost for the beginner twentieth century but they were they were never alone there and Netanyahu and his father his
00:02:29grandfather represent another streamers and is in a revisionist sign is a witch what evolved into what is today the could party right wings on his end of the time it wasn't the mainstream they what they they did not found the state they with the opposition already before this
00:02:44the state was founded in that way outside they were out there a classic outside is however they were very much part of the story even that and for the last thirty odd years they've they've been in power in Israel so I think the way that Israel story's been
00:02:59told from the perspective of those who today on the opposition and who knows how long they'll still let there still be in a position is is only very is only a very very narrow part of the Israeli story and has a tendency to see a ten you know
00:03:13as it was an aberration as some kind of foreign transplant grafted on to is on that winter now leaves everything will be will be okay if you will go back to what used to be and we'll have the successes of Rabin and Peres and Netanyahu is just a
00:03:28mistake and it's important to see the thing out does reflect Israel in many of its its of its aspects and he is the country as it is today and the more more I borrowed incidents in the house store and his family story I realize that that was always
00:03:45part of design is narrative even though the narrative that was being told to the why the public to the west was very much a narrative of of Ben Gurion of those kibbutz builders in pine as well the revisionists who tended to be more more more stress speech makers
00:04:03and involved in in more of a of a I'd say militaristic a type designs which was in the early times and is in that we saw in the first day because there is well that was they were there and they will always part of the story just they
00:04:17want in power when they went in the mainstream and it's in the house not only as a person as a as a as a character that was built from that from that story from that counter narrative design is in but that was also what what what served him
00:04:31as political background in his political let landed to power and which is what's keeping him today impound the fact that they're all these groups who always with that always a part of the Jewish and his writings on his story and he but he's managed to bring them together
00:04:47his predecessor Lee could not come back in but in together but he has managed to really neat the much close into this and lines of underdogs in outside is who even while today have already been for more than three decades in power still feel that that the outside
00:05:00is and that they have to carry a railing against the elite and it's very much what we're seeing today in populist politics in Europe and the United States has been doing that for the third over thirty years in his career and that's I think was the main inside
00:05:13the discovery that I found in working on the book another important strands in in Netanyahu's makeup is %HESITATION his his American %HESITATION persona and his relationship with America and his understanding of that country and that started in his childhood and said well he spent a large part of
00:05:33his child he spent the a button to the nine eleven then from thirteen until eighteen he spent those years in the U. S. his father was at the Sears academic who couldn't find that the kind of post he was looking for in what was then a very small
00:05:48academic what world in young it was basically just one universe he read a vested interest in which was professor Benson attend the house alma mater but he didn't find a job that he instead had to work is the editor of of an encyclopedia which was a good job
00:06:03from a financial point of view but it wasn't what he was looking for he wanted to we want to be a research I wanted to write a story books and the only found it possible to do so in the United States so he uprooted his young family had
00:06:16they had the Infineon Vince young and see how the parents had three sons Yanni baby the middle middle son and a daughter small Sunday up with them to the U. S. definite thing out junior at the time was very dislocating he talks about that to this day as
00:06:30being a trauma that they grew up his chest kids what was a very small town jurors to interest them at the time was a frontier town because before sixty seven half the time was control control by the Jordanian army and for them it was home this little city
00:06:46in which they knew everyone and they went to this the school where everyone was either a son of a senior official of a scene in general they were they very felt the Suns felt very much part of that while their father felt that he hadn't been denied the
00:07:00kind of actor academic recognition that he felt was his G. %HESITATION and that's why he took them to the US and from that time in his early teens and be be was a young boy in Philadelphia this dual persona began to develop so he was still very much
00:07:14Israeli and he remained very much is that in and the fact that people think that he's more American and Israeli as some of his rivals say the I I think and I hope I prove that in the book is not the case but he built this very polished
00:07:28exterior of Americanism he totally managed to get rid of Israeli accident acquired perfidy fluent English she became an or an honors student in high school even had two names for his Israeli friends are found he was baby and for his American friends he was banned from many as
00:07:46he kept that name and even changed his surname to attitude to it too he was selling the tie but it was it more it much more easier for the rest of his American friends to pronounce so he had that site and also he was in the U. S.
00:07:58it is a because mother was came from a family which had lived in Minneapolis so he had all these sites to him but I argue in the book that these are these are very instrumental side he's not who he is he's through into an Israeli nationalist Jewish nationalists
00:08:13very secular Jewish now office who is adept at using his American side to win over audience the rest to make himself see more statesmanlike and he's a statesman but his polished American as television appearances making even more of that and in the young years when he would flee
00:08:31became a statesman is already a very very accomplished before me was one of the stars in the early years of CNN he was taken %HESITATION he was he was invited almost nightly %HESITATION into the Larry King one says five he would be a ten if a if I
00:08:44only had a sense of humor which maybe took into took into account and ever since he's always made sure to put a joke in every speech in every interview nobody has a sense of humor but you can either take it but but but he's a place performance is
00:08:57certainly in corporate that so I think that a ten now is that the American side of the time now is very much of that but it's the it's the instrumental side it's a it's a shell or a over cloak that he puts on when he needs it and
00:09:10I think the devastating fact home great I'm it would be great if you could address his relationship with his older brother of he went back I believe to Israel while he was still in Philadelphia which was another wrench for the bill is that it was a wrench in
00:09:28it was also basically trailblazing the way for big piece of their father was an academic who was a stone design is but he didn't see military service is something which is sons necessarily have to do he was gay have come of age before the establishment of state originally
00:09:43never understood at least not in until much later how important matri service would become as a as integral part of life in the of the Israeli elite he believed that his sons and it's a very intelligent young man they as they would serve the sinus in the Jewish
00:09:58elite others by being intellectuals by being people who will go and study in the top universities in the U. S. and later on they would perhaps become diplomats of politicians but they wouldn't necessarily have to serve in the army so when his eldest son Yanni reached eighteen and
00:10:14they were living in Philadelphia he pressured United to apply to all the top ivy league university I was accepted to Harvard the only rebel then went back to the age of eighty three and a half years they'd be we did the same thing that we had been accepted
00:10:26to Yale at the age of eighteen hit with honest you did he didn't even stick around for his graduation ceremony which always we has a very big thing for American high school is he didn't there is security was back a little preparing to add to join the army
00:10:39and this was very much following in the on his footsteps so he had his two main influence with his father who was in his ideological intellectual influence but in actual see actual decisions in life he followed his elder brother by rebelling against the phone the net never and
00:10:54never ideologically they both both brothers remain very storage nationalism right wingers but by not staying in the U. S. and starting a top university bye bye Geiger at the age of eighteen on their own to serve in the IDF in the Israeli army at that in the most
00:11:08elite of units out fast forward a few years you only remained in the baby stay for five years he stayed for two not to move to he is then he's a compulsory service you make became an officer in in most elite is ready to start out so the
00:11:23fears and young he was already the come young who remit remained in the in the ministry and was on the th of basically on on a life long military career became the command of that unit and then in nineteen seventy six along came that hijack of that asphalt
00:11:38saline into into IBM Yanni was it that led his men in as part of that very complex and very daring hostage rescue mission unit was part of the team which burst into the terminal that the old terminal at Entebbe apples and rescue the houses you know he was
00:11:55shot even before entering fi apparently by it by Ugandan sold yet firing from the control tower and that was a moment which marked the turning out the his younger brother's life because you only didn't return alive from Entebbe he was one of many is is ready heroism foreign
00:12:14soldiers but the one who's been more commemorate than anyone else in Israel's history and their number reasons why young has become such a hit reversible the Entebbe raid was through less than three years after the young people with ninety seventy three it was the biggest trauma for Israel
00:12:28pub in Israel's history when Egypt and and Syria launch a surprise attack which was first devastating successful afterwards %HESITATION is %HESITATION managed to repulse them and and when the war but the the for those first few weeks were very G. trauma for Israelis the fact that the IDF
00:12:44the great army which is when the six day war and that's in the week vanquish de Syria and Jordan and Egypt and captured the old old as the Golan Heights in the in the west bank in Sinai dental that suddenly nine seven three that was broken the trust
00:13:00of his race had been broken in the army and the intemperate should was the moment which is rated been waiting for to rekindle their enthusiasm and their love and that trust in the idea of those were the intemperate did but the people on the raids themselves %HESITATION anonymous
00:13:15they couldn't that night is going to be mentioned because they will all pilots and special forces offices and none of them could pay in the media with their faces a name that was one face one name that was the the one person having come back alive go into
00:13:28the house name could be mentions your name Tonya who had played a role in intended not not a central lead he was there over two hundred men and different team he was commander of one of the teams that but he hadn't planned the the operation had in command
00:13:42of the operation but he was elevated posthumously into this figure who personified the entire operation even the operate with the renamed it was originally operation thunderbolt it was renamed operation you on it Jonathan in the audience and the house now but he was that so his name could
00:13:59be mentioned his face could be put in pictures in magazines and even played by stars in Hollywood movies about Entebbe but there was a role for spokesperson and baby had who haven't been and he may never had been a pretty if you'd been serving in the army at
00:14:14the time he was already back in the U. S. is a student at MIT was thrust into this public role as a spokesperson of the only Netanyahu myth of that if you have family and the family went about building this myth of worry a philosopher a man who
00:14:29could have been the greatest leader of the Jewish people have the left that was I was exaggeration Yanni wasn't young he was obviously a very gifted officer but he was actually about to be relieved of his command and Entebbe No Way saves the the myth of you only
00:14:43attend now if if it come back alive within ten depression never happened quite rightly Yanni's qureia was about to and and not not not in very good circumstances but that that wasn't happening was a dead air out I'm to Bibi Netanyahu at the young age of the time
00:14:58twenty maybe twenty seven this was his first push into public life as so many re was very on the demand that lecture and they started setting up a think tank in the name of the on it was called the Johnson institute didn't last very long but it was
00:15:13his first brush with fame they they made a big conference with all these visual many guests from the United States came over the jurors them in nineteen seventy nine and this is the these entry into the big time no I I think that to me I would have
00:15:27become a politician and Pepsi resulted even without this big push but there's no question this catapulted him very early at a very at relatively early age into public life in a few years from that he's already number two at the embassy in the US less the SS seven
00:15:43years after the after the only had died he was already the ambassador to the U. at age of thirty three or thirty four and he was already on his meteoric trajectory to the heights to which is the which is since achieved and it was in Washington that he
00:15:59he seems to have gotten to this role as a house burst %HESITATION %HESITATION putting Israel's case to the acts side world he took to that wrote it perfectly that role because it was also part of the revisionist ideology they always so the has or is it it literally
00:16:17means explaining as it as a very central part of what was on it should be doing now that mainstream old schools and is in they believe also in explaining in in in in propaganda Ising but they never saw as a central part of what size you should be
00:16:33this was I was in mainly is building kit but same industry and roads and and and and and all the research and science things that that that will come along in the in the Jewish state and the state and the army these all the things that they did
00:16:46and this at the same time you have to try to explain to the world what we doing but they never saw it as as a central role legible to ski the founder of the revisionist movement who is the main source of Ben see on baby's father so it
00:16:59is one of the three pillars of sign is above the we had if we if we do not explain to the world why it is our right to to to to have into owned that promise I will become the Jewish homeland then we will fail and nothing now
00:17:14it took to this very naturally and he to this day he believes is because we can see it all is a frequent speeches and interviews and performances that this is a call mission that this is something that if it's not done design it will fail and there's always
00:17:29been there has been a been a very large part of the conflict within sign is an over the importance and has better and your job but since he and his and his is follow was always accused of being people can talk about people who can do anything now
00:17:44without without would argue that we get to do you have to do both but yes he was he is probably the ultimate has about race than his many to many of that that slogans and and the sound bites and the performance art that he uses his visual images
00:18:00and so on these that they've become a core part of what it is to to make the argument visual today in this day and age even people who politically don't agree with that now find himself using his his his kind of language today moon I'm I'm I'd like
00:18:15to confirm what you said about the accusation and said the revisionist talk but didn't didn't do %HESITATION one charts this later Netanyahu is that he's he's he's indecisive he doesn't always want to take a risk on a course of action and I was struck can you buy hi
00:18:36this was reflected in his personal relationships %HESITATION he has three marriages all of which he entered into under some duress it you suggest and I wondered if you could talk about those %HESITATION and what you think they tell us about the man and the politicians well I think
00:18:53within you know his will his a relationships and then told him not just about his budget with three wise but his relationships in general with that with people of what with him colleagues allies of the as as you can so seeing as we've been on almost always been
00:19:07underlings but also world leaders with it with whom he works I think that he he's always had a tendency to look at the very big picture of anything is doing so whether it's his own career than the looks of his long term trajectory whether it says he is
00:19:24the %HESITATION his personal relationship he he always tried being very very instrumental see what he can get out of it and that's why the so we need this was this is but was so easy to research because Israel and the residual but New York and Washington and other
00:19:38some other cities in the world that he said just so easy to find people who feel betrayed by Nathan yeah I did it because he actually consciously betray them in a way that he thought of a dirty trick how he's going to get one over them in the
00:19:52way some politicians do but just the way the in in the way so instrumental in his relationships what how does this get me to my objective transactional very conventional and which is that makes it does make it very easy to to to build healthy relationships with women as
00:20:08you mention his three wives each of his wives I think there was a real love that and from one of the fed and is too if I'd never speak though that they're not server turning women that they're very impressive when one of them is they were the most
00:20:21senior scientists and is one of the one is a very high powered socialite in New York there doesn't seem to be much run call of that but the same time the relationship didn't last because they have their own lives and they have their own purposes and somehow the
00:20:35from the house drive wasn't part of building a family life where is his current wife Sarah who's stuck with him for by now if it's a if it's twenty seven years almost it totally immersed and integrated herself into the canal project some would say much too deeply into
00:20:53that project and in that way a lot of people say she's a liability to him I think she's actually a source of strength because we we tend to forget that in the middle of into now is political career that with ten years in which she was out of
00:21:06power in which she had been beaten by L. directing them by our Sharon in bio dome it and in that decade I think Sir Anthony how his current wife was probably one of the main the main factor keeping him on track on the road back to power because
00:21:22the thing out with the former bill good could have had a very good life is it working in the private sector after after his first term as prime minister certainly after his rather short but successful tour was finance minister fifteen years ago so if a thirteen forty years
00:21:37ago in Israel and every he lost the last three elections in a row in that decade and every time he could have said well you know had enough of been promised already had the top job I'm still young man relatively was in his fifties then why you know
00:21:53why carry on the right face of politics and there were people who who heard him muse privately that may be maybe it's time to to do something else Sarah kept him on and like you say he was passive in that relationship she she was the one who initiated
00:22:10the first date she gave she pushed that they have a phone number on him and that she was at the time at a flight attendant and on it and it out on a flight and she and she gave him a phone number and she was very that's a
00:22:24certified in the end that relationship and that they only got married after she was pregnant with that with their son that with their first son here and you can see that similar patterns happened in in the in the two previous their marriages and is anything that a man
00:22:38who is so is said to have and seems to know what he wants can be that passive and you and you went and you mention the fact that the he's accused of being indecisive and that's true and I think it's it's very much to do with is the
00:22:51fact he's very risk of us and people say people have this image of it and now is being a thug and a warmonger but the opposite is true the truth is is that nothing now has had the least big walls an opera major major operation of any Israeli
00:23:05prime minister and an average of into the I was a very low casualty that on the other hand the Oslo peace make a that he doesn't want to make peace so he doesn't want to make war he wants to keep its own is kind of tanks and and
00:23:18always own guards a status quo he believes that the only official to survive anybody's it'll comps can despite being on edge in the anti tank is still prosper and if you look at the GDP going up he may have a point and if you look at the way
00:23:32that the whole region and yet you cover that you've come to the region for you as you've you've seen how how is a which was Israel Palestine which was seen as this major conflict the source of all problems in the Middle East is now almost a side show
00:23:45in the canal was saying this twenty five years ago he was saying people one they will realize that the Palestinian issue is not an important issue it's it it's something that can be marginalized and somehow the Palestinians can be pushed aside and bullied into into submission and it
00:24:00seems to be happening now because you have the Saudis and Egyptians basically working with Israelis and totally the Palestinians in the corner taking that telling about so either you accept whatever deal trumps gonna come along with orient women we don't have any any dealings with you anymore you're
00:24:17seeing how trump is recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital a major break with foreign policy and yes there been some protests that will only had the Gaza purchased last week which were very violent very bloody but not necessarily even connected to the Jerusalem issue and the world is sort
00:24:33of said okay we are we delighted but shrugged and the time now is now forty one of the most influential world leaders in around the the he's a man who who who who can pick up the phone to trump which very few world leaders can do needs a
00:24:46man who is except it was taken as the guest of honor last week of may the nine the victory day parade in Moscow he was standing there by putting you know he he has he eagerly feisty into that mode he takes around for three or four days and
00:25:00just focuses on hosting that then you know we have all these strong men quote unquote leaders who seem to be very fond and even C. B. as as their mental so this is this is a very risk averse indecisive president who still Stephen by his colleagues a very
00:25:16strong and decisive man which is a great trick %HESITATION we will definitely come back to that issue of whether the Palestinian %HESITATION issue has been put on the back burner globally %HESITATION one thing that really struck me when you mentioned %HESITATION the book at B. B. right in
00:25:34nineteen ninety three a place among the nations unit said his views have never evoked which is an extraordinary statement about any %HESITATION politician a world leader he's been on the stage as long as he has %HESITATION is already true well if you read the book and it's not
00:25:50and it's not an easy restraint dense book and if you want to read a good summary then I I there's a good book is out now which which I think summarize old %HESITATION you may you you may have mentioned around the and that so and I try to
00:26:03summarize the book and I think it's an important point because he said he sat down and wrote that book when did when he became leader of the code F. when the liquid was in after the could lost the election in nineteen ninety two he took a few months
00:26:16to route to route to write his his thoughts and his his blueprint for his role in the region and if you read that book today you see that the plan that he sent out that way by Israel would take on the Arab world as the west as the
00:26:31as the west representative and would brazen out any pressures would put the Palestinian in that place so to speak I mean and ultimately the world with accepted in the what has been accepted in the sense of the world yet agree with Israel that it'll need to keep the
00:26:45west bank of the supplements but the worst of them except the fact they will be two state solution nope very few politicians more than pay any lip service about world politicians pay more than lip service that and immolate it's almost as if they they they they're just saying
00:27:00a mantra they don't even believe in themselves and don't from doesn't it in it NCL's reaches this this point where what he predicted seems to be happening at least from his perspective but we can say that it's not sustainable occupation of almost five million Palestinians caught last movie
00:27:17we've been saying that we that global commentary at the met centrist left me has been saying that for decades already would be saying is is the first intifada in nineteen eighty seven that discount last and certifies lasting suffer Israel's growing and becoming more prosperous is far relations have
00:27:35improved all the states around the ring chaos what Israel is an incredible I did the stability with occasional short storms and this is what if any are predicted twenty five years that that that that if only Israel would go along with his policies and he was right there
00:27:52at the time just before the also prices when everyone so we have this dream of a new Middle East whether being with his raise a pass and will make peace and then old but everyone else will make will follow their example in the Middle East will suddenly becomes
00:28:03a bit of stability and that was the book that's the everyone's with that she will press wrote a book which was called the new Middle East and everyone was saying this is this is the future one that's in the house but was seen as some kind of darkened
00:28:17dystopian vision which nobody really wants to buy it if you come back twenty five just adds to the Middle East also prices hasn't been a huge success hasn't really leads to very much while nothing now it has been in power for most of the half of the time
00:28:34%HESITATION how exactly half the time since he wrote that book and his vision seems to be the one which is winning right now thank you Angela out we're going to take a short break this podcast is brought to you by AT T. eighty taken now design and install
00:28:48smart home for you backed by twenty four seven protection then new smart home is customizable for your lifestyle for instance you can say turn down service and AT T. will lock your doors and turn down your lights and thermostats AT T. will set up your home with multiple
00:29:01smart home devices and security features like video doorbell cameras locks and more visit AT T. dot com slash pot costs to learn how AT T. can design and install a secure smart home just for you okay we're gonna talk about the situation in Israel and the greater Middle
00:29:18East as effects Israel right now %HESITATION maybe we could go back to the changeover in Washington between administrations from the apama administration to the trump administration it has %HESITATION inside or not coincided with an enormous amount of developments in the Middle East aloft of which have a bearing
00:29:41on Israel and Israel's relationships with regional countries could you talk back that process well I think within you know was anticipating a change whoever was was going to come along in the White House even if even if it was but have been in every Clinton certainly if it
00:29:58was gonna be another Republican and present other than Donald Trump and towards the it was the maids a second term of Obama it was clear that back about my sort of given up on the Palestinian issue he'd allowed them to see John Kerry to carry on with his
00:30:17crew so take care bids for a for a solution John Kerry never sees until the very end to believe that he could somehow force a pragmatic K. decision from material from a bass for that for that meant they did a made a full of about four hundred phone
00:30:33conversations over his four years in as the second your state today to now in the believe that somehow I could get into now to an agreement baby I think I understood the who is who is who he was dealing with that Kerry was very idealistic but not not
00:30:49quite realistic kind of guy what Obama only focused ready in the Middle East on his %HESITATION on his around negotiation there on that which I think was it is it was fine now probably because we can we can start talking about they're on there that was the thing
00:31:03which is that by the time I think was a good idea however it was it was not a good idea in the way that Obama allowed it to become the one big thing he was going to do in the Middle East putting aside the need to work with
00:31:16his wit with America's is Sony I analyze and putting aside the need to somehow do something on the Israel Palestine front and it's a now realize that this focus on Iran within I think in the end not be a lasting legacy of about money was prepared for the
00:31:32but I think we I think there's no leader who is better prepared for the post Obama era the front of the post about Mary became the trump area took even him by surprise but he still he was still prepared for that as well on the morning after the
00:31:45election the U. S. everyone woke up including a tiny out very surprised to discover that a Clinton was not to be the next president I just as it was going to be Donald Trump but everyone else every other lead in every chancery in government in the world was
00:31:57trying to find a way to get it get it get it coal through the switchboard at trump tower that the on the need to do that he would it not in trouble for the nineteen eighties it both hung out together in New York in the same kind of
00:32:07Republican rich circles maybe up as he wasn't a rich person but his old his friends in New York with the kind of people who hung out with Donald Trump at the time said he hit the had been passed me here to be introduced by one of the older
00:32:19that they cause medics and the time also a Republican the diplomat and then as a leader of Jewish organizations and loud and introduced from from wasn't close to be but they knew each other truck was even on the list of billion as the baby had once written in
00:32:37his own handwriting in which he said these are the people web content to he he gave it to his aides as people think coal and if a pass for a donation of rice other favors the troubles in the Netanyahu orbit from a very early early period and vice
00:32:51versa B. was someone who trump knew one of the few politicians from you well and that obviously gave him an opening it baby Olson you very well knows very well circle of the circles around trumping polluting the cushion of family is trouble son of actually been vacated from
00:33:08his bedroom walls because baby was visiting New York though that was the kind of classes that be ready hand with the trump circles there's ideological classes of many of the support to base of trump to the evangelicals who senior and a representative is my is vice president Mike
00:33:24pence is someone the baby's name baby it was a good new pets quite well in the whole evangelical leadership of a close into now and his way of looking at the world and the same thing goes with the foreign policy hawks like current state a secular state there
00:33:38Mike Pompeii out and the new national security adviser jumbles all these people are very much in the Nathaniel camp they that that that they showed them to now doctrine so once trump so to settle down is how the talks trump settling down but now it seems that there
00:33:53is a sort of a foreign policy come the coming together in Washington very late in in this this trumps arm but it seems to be happening and it seems to be articulated by people like Pompeii %HESITATION involved in this these are babies people these are people who was
00:34:08working with since the nineteen eighties to try and impose their view of and and and they had some success in the in in the bush junior years as well but now it's rob this is big into now than it was in that was in a position details biggest
00:34:22regret for so many years when it was finally a Republican president he like he was in power he had to deal with Bill Clinton in his first term and then in his second third and fourth terms with Barack Obama now finally there's an American administration which really sees
00:34:38eye to eye with his own everything and there's never been a situation yes is always been has a massive support from the US census bus specifically from after the six day war when it became a much more clear is a part is as the west an axis is
00:34:54the U. S. %HESITATION bit of power but now we have administration which will let you will not criticize Israel about anything will agree with this of everything in some ways it's very useful for them to the house finally he seemed to them a scene in the minds of
00:35:08the Iran deal which is hated he seeing trump give Israel this incredible at aspect of recognition diplomatic as a recognition of Jerusalem which was selling which is always going to be kept for much later stage in any kind of peaceful diplomatic arrangement but on the other hand this
00:35:26is it is not a great fit for the attorney on Israel because he hasn't got a stable US ally in the region in the same way that he would have had in the past he has not someone who can come in and calm down thanks to last year
00:35:39that was it outbreak of violence injuries from around there security arrangements at Temple Mount those no US diplomat you could credibly come in and shuttle between Israel and the Palestinians and the same thing's happening now in Syria we have this is massive vacuum of power into which Russia's
00:35:56incentive itself in Iran is inserted itself and it'll hasn't got its American ally had to what would set the canal does have his our relationship with putting which is what we should be very effective so far but it's not like having this counter balance of the US administration
00:36:11and that those for straightness and now and then one more thing we frustrates him is that it's much harder for him not to keep his own right wing is in check because they're always come and say why don't we extend sovereignty to the west bank when we build
00:36:22most of them is nothing now does not want to pull back from the west bank on the one hand he wants is what keeps security control you want to be seen showed any weakness but the same side as want to rock the boat and start doing things which
00:36:35could ruin the alliance's building with the Saudis want to do things which will provoke a massive outbreak of the Palestinian population so it's much more difficult for him not to tell his own right wing is and isn't in the mall in the mall at the set the kind
00:36:50with his coalition guys I could do this because the Americans won't let me because they can see the Americans will let him get away with murder right now so no always helpful to have pushing in the back okay so it's good to have Washington holding you back it
00:37:03because as an excuse Sir %HESITATION %HESITATION this some other unusual alliances emerging in the Middle East and and mostly %HESITATION is because of a route %HESITATION as it as a trump has made a great play of his relations with the Saudis and it looks like there is a
00:37:20warming of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel although they seem to be %HESITATION suppression pool is I think we saw when the Air India re three Saudi airspace opened and %HESITATION Israel was trumpeting inside he was denying it was happening until it actually happened %HESITATION but perhaps you
00:37:39could talk about this new this the alignments realignment where the Sunni powers in the region of a sort of more %HESITATION open these probably pushing it too far but but %HESITATION getting behind Israel because of the mutual for C. threat from Iraq although number affect his hip there
00:37:58was his music the mutual perceived threat and it's a real threat yeah it may be maybe exaggerate it may it may be being exaggerated to some degree angles into now is always have the changing cast of threats those in the eighties when he was that the money was
00:38:13talking with a big threat to the west and was was coming from the Soviet Union and their alliance with radical in I re jeans and then he's to it and then in the nineties he spoke about Iraq and by two thousand three there are the Iraqi military power
00:38:25was destroyed by the Americans so and the richest so then Iran became the big threat so there is some thing instrumental about about Iran as a big fat that heat that we did speak by Randall said earlier on but then to now is always seeing is route in
00:38:41the region in in conflict with this with with elements of radical Islam and right and radical Muslim ideologies which meant a radical alma I delusional may not necessarily be Islamist but in the past Baathists there unkind Arab and pan Arabism and asterism she's always seen that as the
00:39:00main conflict but he he's also kind of sad they'll come a time when the allies will be born begrudgingly accepts our our presence will they understand that it makes more sense for them to work together with us rather than to fight this and that's why he never never
00:39:17close the door to that kind of secret diplomacy with the Saudis in with the Egyptians he never wanted to like she wants to start opening up embassies and having these big fancy international conferences and shama shake with fit with twenty lead is holding hands that the way she
00:39:32will press will always love to do and and that didn't work very well for pastor the end is ready voters preferred that tough guy but the idea of having this this this this kind of an alliance with the sound this is not necessarily a new ID you can
00:39:46see with the %HESITATION hinting many years ago it is this kind of thing would be possible and suddenly it would be possible if the west as he is he so it would be in Israel side that the Arabs would have no choice but to draw okay to is
00:40:00out unless unless the bus will make it clear that they would not pay into ditches route and and you know basically as as as he accused though he personally but so is suppose accused Obama of throwing Israel under the bus so that sufficiently the fact that the Americans
00:40:16did continue supporting is not the same time Iran became the Candace joint thing and I think the third thing is that the is that their leaders of countries like Saudi Arabia I know this because they've said so in private meetings that they had recently in Washington have themselves
00:40:34felt that the Palestinian issue is no longer the kind of issue which makes the Arab world the Arab street when yeah you you've traveled %HESITATION will you know it better than I do that with the Arab street is not it is going to get it is not a
00:40:46real concept that Tony Monday maybe never maybe never but but it certainly isn't anymore and I think that I I know that the the Saudi leadership is that he does is to see whether there and deceive closest to what is wrong and it more of a distance away
00:41:03and less less paying lip service the president issue would go over and they begin to see it that that that that they've seen in recent years a changing trend so all these things are coming together eight in it west situation where polite Mohammed bin Salman on the front
00:41:18of the crown prince of Saudi Arabia is planning his thirty five he's planning to fifty is of rule over Saudi Arabia he looks around is that with the wet weather all the centers of power in the region who do I link up with NEC's Israel anything's well may
00:41:32be I don't want to be seen to openly in pricing is real but it isn't a pragmatic level is that that is the kind of the kind of contract and what with I need to know the cut is the right kind of passive into the down the is
00:41:44not asking him to open up an embassy in Tel Aviv ordinary ads you know asking it even asked for the for the for the act route that was in the Indians **** asks one it was okay with the Saudis so it was okay and what well for for
00:41:57Israel but all these things leased vehicle signage accumulating all signs of more of a change in the apps on and on the Israeli side the thing is the is the beneficiary of them he's positioned himself to be the the right man at the right time for this seems
00:42:14that in a sense that the world is catching up to the Netanyahu strong mountain concert you've got %HESITATION to one you've got CC you've you've got %HESITATION Mohammed bin Salman MBS %HESITATION for further afield him some can see that the leaders of China you because it has a
00:42:31in Japan Putin Mosey in that in India and don't know who wants to be a strong man he's a he's the one to be in the group but his present United States very strong just by the fact that he sits on top of the because of entry in
00:42:43the world so all these men you mentioned at the one strong a leader world leader doesn't get along well with B. B. is angle Americal night no coincidence that also adds a lot better than that I don't get along well with anyone right now so maybe it's kind
00:42:58of the center of his group he's been dead long before any of them he he was a prime is a ninety six he's been there longer than putting has been there so for them for many of them he's a sort of a mental he's a menace to the
00:43:09tobacco bomb after bomb is not playing golf and he and and baby still in charge of his country so the old see him as this kind of leader who can claim to be democratic same time but at the same time not be ready Democrat because the because he's
00:43:23rolling over five million fast and without without without any a civil human right well some he rightly civil rights so this this kind of idea of a leader who can pretend to be democratic at the same time the same time have these various features of autocracy it seems
00:43:39very strong seeing someone who who gets his way over a liberal human rights say a gender of the Obama administration of the administration's which that before in the west and this is sort of out liar a harbinger of this period of the strong man baby is the is
00:43:56almost a spiritual godfather of the of this age and because this phenomenon has spread nice very far afield %HESITATION could save him from having to do and nothing about the Palestinian issue I mean trump came in to office saying he would do the ultimate deal he had is
00:44:14it to his your fight diplomatic %HESITATION subtle Sentinel shoe store to react %HESITATION do we see we are supposedly going to see the outlines of some sort of a %HESITATION some of you may also it has been suggested to me more than once this may be less of
00:44:34a plan to more of a route map for %HESITATION but %HESITATION as you said he doesn't like %HESITATION making changes having permanent solutions permanent decisions in the contest of a context of the Palestinian issue he sees merit in the status quo and not actually having to do anything
00:44:54and %HESITATION I suppose the question is can he and this changed global climate gets away without stance and does he want to so what from the third for the V. thirty one years from the outbreak of the first intifada in late nineteen eighty seven there's been this I
00:45:11did that something is gonna happen or accumulation of these are going to happen which are going to make the situation which is on the Palestinians unsustainable that demographic balance is going to change they'll be a massive air of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians marching on the ball on
00:45:27Israel's borders and they'll be east and they did just try that little bit of hundreds of thousands of that they'll be so much will be so much diplomatic pressure in a it would be rack said there they'll be diplomatic tsunami which will break on Israel if it'll it'll
00:45:44doesn't do something I assure uncle that it'll be what will be that into the corral as we have the wet wet wet weather bulletin Spain is that it is slaughtered there was his fair among Israelis and perhaps hope among some of the is a will be pressured an
00:46:00intolerable pressure would would be a financial it'll have to would have to give way the nails always said the opposite not it's not gonna happen is you'll you'll you'll be you'll you'll you'll %HESITATION Sir %HESITATION that wound up bodies by this fair that that that you're making concession
00:46:15that we don't need to mess with anything any confession concessions is not going to happen now these things could happen the Palestinians could finally embrace real non violence at a protest and marches million passive could March on on on the road blocks from Ramallah and from Gaza I
00:46:31could see new governments in in the west on may we could have had Benny Sanders in in in in Washington and Jeremy Corbyn in London who knows who else where in other countries and we could see these changes may come in and apply that pressure in Israel I
00:46:47hear you compensate you called make clear but it is not going to happen but fifty one years since the end the occupation began Israel is still that missing now seems to be winning the argument he won it for the eight anti eight years of Barack Obama you could
00:47:02arguably the most liberal left leaning pro Palestinian president in the White House and it didn't happen and my argument I've been writing this but this book and in and in countless pieces of return fire it's over the as is that it it'll hast is Israel's choice you don't
00:47:17have to choose whether it wants to be the kind of society which will forever continue to subjugate another nation also change for its own benefit I don't think that we see today and with any sign of international of international external pressure forcing Israel to to to make the
00:47:34decision is gonna come from Israelis I think and I think it did come in the past some is right is the author prices wasn't that a result of pressure from the outside it was an idea that was observed was that was that was perhaps by some in Norwegian
00:47:48diplomats but it was something that came about by Israelis working together with policies without major pressure Arial Sharon was impression from the outside to to leave Gaza to these the and and even the the the camp David accords which which the US of the help very much camp
00:48:03David was the place in the US where where the accord was signed it was it was a result of an west of that Egypt coming to Israel and it'll say okay we will give back the entire Sinai Peninsula because we want to have peace with Egypt so I
00:48:17think that that the idea of of something happening forcing Israel to make peace is obsolete I think that if it is it to have to probably be with the leader after with an accident and now does not believe in making peace with the Palestinians as he's not the
00:48:32kind of peace which is possible but I think they'll be another leader unpopulated lead on the Palestinian side Abbasid eighty two doesn't seem to be the kind of person to deliver the kind of leadership was necessary for the for the Palestinians but I think on both sides it'll
00:48:45be happening from within it will be happening because an American president to a Russian president or Saudi crown prince will come along and say I am going to meet you guys made pace well let's talk about Israel and Israel's internal politics in turmoil I'm you you get towards
00:49:02the end of the book talking about the divided Israel that %HESITATION BB has brought to fire tore his happens while she's been in power %HESITATION how serious is that as a threat to Israel's results and future that people aside divided about him and about what they should do
00:49:24next I think it is that in the long term it could be very very serious problem for is on now Israeli politics with Israeli electoral system is a parliamentary system and Papa of Porsche representation which basically gives very small groups representation in the parliament to any Israeli prime
00:49:42is has to be a by necessity by this is that the a coalition built into now is a coalition built that that when we say so is a coalition built that we usually mean he brings people together is a unified that he's this kind of produce moves out
00:49:55of the %HESITATION with the device and so what if he has a coalition believe a date of a very different kind he manages to bring the groups together feel angry at the perceived older late at the at the at the establishment out babies been establishment most of his
00:50:10life sentiments of his public career but he still managed to it to make all these disparate groups feel that they're all together fighting they'll sticking it to the establishment and baby is that champion of sticking it to their status from that's that we build is correct if you
00:50:24look at all the parties which are in the Likud coalition the coalition is a very strong coalition because all these parties have it we talked before about is on the Saudis against Iran says baby and all his coalition allies against the so called elite the so called establishment
00:50:40of Israel and that's a very powerful unifying yet devise a so but but but but by thriving on having enemies with it is on its the could be the Israeli Arab it's the left and is the media and is then now it's become the legal authority from the
00:50:55police because the police are investigating the now how they're the police endanger Israel's S. the very survival by by trying to bring down the the the the who isn't showing it survive a bye bye but by broadcasting all these messages the Israeli public nothing now is probably the
00:51:10most of it is because the most divisive promise initials Israel and not just on the right left of secular religious divide because there's so many different devising down south is their religious person but he's he knows how to Stoke up there with the anger of the religious community
00:51:24he's not that much of a right wing and says he doesn't believe in it in extending sovereignty to every centimeter of of the individual but he uses that their resentments and the and them aspiration of the settlers' movement and their fear of one day being evicted by they
00:51:40were evicted from signing from the Gaza Strip he uses those phase very very effectively and he uses the anger of of misery and he himself is that Ashkenazy elite it's P. uses the anger and the the the the justified basis and resentment of the Mizrahi Jews who were
00:51:55brought in the fifties by the by those first governments are Israelis to parts of his %HESITATION which were less less hospitable less and less services and still today are less less well developed in other parts of the country he uses all these things very well even though he
00:52:10he he personally has no experience of being poor %HESITATION disadvantage in any way he has this is a a is very said the way Donald Trump who was born the son of a millionaire managed to raise money to stomach to resonate with blue collar voters in the U.
00:52:25S. this feeling that I I I get your resentment I understand your anger and this this was metaphysical uncanny way of stoking those phase and is this with the now does so well that's how you build his coalition that's was not good for is on the loan to
00:52:40out well for the last few years the major source of a sticking out fears is being or rather the major target for those fears as being it Iran there has been talk of a possible conflict with Iran we've seen %HESITATION at the first taping clashes between Israel and
00:52:57Iran in Syria there is also the possibility that Israel could choose to bomb %HESITATION Iran's nuclear facilities how do you see the chances of a larger conflict with Iran and Israel unfolding or do you see the word in the last few months the tenure was actually speaking on
00:53:18to end on two levels he was talking about the next to fix of the Iran deal and I remember because that's how medicalization with him into the fear the people in the room but I manage that get a few questions and talk to about this issue as I
00:53:31was about six months ago and I see Suzie Gee I I you on the face of an exit nine days and not actually I'm I'm and fix it out and they gave us the number of ways that he believed that the Iran deal could be off the and
00:53:45Hans make much tougher against Iran and I think that I mean you could you could say that that that that wasn't realistic and there was no way that the Germans and the French city there right is that going to go along with that but I think that he
00:53:57wanted to have some kind of framework and the what at and when he realized that trump was going to obviously blow a there until eventually he got on board with trump but he doesn't want to break down every single way of dealing with Iran if it wanted in
00:54:14a war with Iraq he could have launched a war in two thousand eleven yes there it would have men men going against the Americans yes it would have meant taking a single minute tree risk but his number two at the time is right hand man was I would
00:54:27direct the defense minister who won Elbert really wanted to go to war with a what he wants to lead Israel as defense made once did Israel's major machine on a war against Iran and the manager she was prepared the fact the love the generals were against it and
00:54:41they thought it was a bad idea doesn't mean that they weren't doing what was expected of them as men in uniform to prepare that machine that that that very well oiled and powerful machine which is Israeli ministry for to to attack Iran and I don't think maybe really
00:54:55wanted to go all the way I think that he wanted everyone to believe that he wanted to do it and he was that he wanted the Americans to to to yes good to impose much much tougher sanctions on Iran and not to sign that Iran deal in this
00:55:09in the way that Obama David's out to fit the is %HESITATION may attack but he didn't he didn't give the order to he could have given it to if it wanted to so I don't think he wants will with him but he doesn't want to see regime change
00:55:22a does believe he he does think that Iran today in the same situation as a civilian was in the in the late nineteen eighties and we can see I'm I and some of that the economic data may it may suppose that the reality is is promising the Iranian
00:55:35market is is in trouble I think that is an exaggeration to think that most function sides will actually to a push Iran into meltdown or bring about real change and even if there is a gene change there's no Gorbachev Yeltsin waiting there in the wings who I was
00:55:50waiting in the wings is custom so demanding someone the party be once the with even less than they want to deal with that with the right knee so I don't think I I I I think he's on the wrong on the wrong track of that but what he
00:56:02what he's trying to achieve with the new sanctions the Americans are living in many other countries will also be forced by the Americans to to impose more sanctions is regime change and I think it's a very dangerous game to play a what with the Soviet Union but it
00:56:17could have gone terribly wrong as well he sees himself as as a as the Ronald Reagan of our era trying to push trying to bankrupt Iran into into regime change in the same way that some people read that publishes Reagan having done said to the Soviets well we've
00:56:34just had it the state of Israel seventieth birthday next year will be be base %HESITATION he may not be about to stop but he went on for ever %HESITATION predictions are dangerous game but and certainly he could have more than twenty more years ahead of him in public
00:56:52life if she won Paris is anything to go by but I wonder if you could houses a guess at what his legacy will be well I think his legacy will very much depend on whoever comes after him because we'll we'll we'll so I'm I'm I'm looking at this
00:57:08from from from my perspective so anything's Israel has to end the occupation not because of its economic reasons so %HESITATION because of that a diplomatic pressure I think it has to do that for its own good as a society and to be able to focus in on onion
00:57:24really realizing its potential because Israel today has achieved things that move favorably with believed it which even seventy as for talking about economic and technological development symmetry progress and and its situation in the region I think is very few people have would have imagined it would reach this
00:57:42point is seventy as I think it has it has incredible potential which is not realizing today because it's society's being held back by all these devices into now is exploiting and by the issue with the passage which forces Israel's devote so much of its time to this kind
00:57:58of fan mongering and we have to keep the price stays in check we count let go econ allow ourselves to actually think what kind of country we want to be so I think that India will be seen as a prime minister who held on who survived well it'll
00:58:13survive but also held Israel back because it'll has would not just because of Donald Trump because so many things happening now in the region Israel has an incredible opportunity now to really decide how it wants to be for the next seventy as we walk not just a question
00:58:30of what the board is what the relationship with the past and it would be but also what kind of registry would have within itself with its minorities between religious and secular how we'll have where would it position itself between the western world and the Middle East where it's
00:58:44geographically situated all these things all right now on Israel's grass but it'll never had as much power as it has now to decide how these things will look for the next seventy years than the others want to do that he wants to status quo hold the line don't
00:58:59ever concede better to bully people slowly into submission rather than to try and rebuild real great relationship with them so I think that their legacy to a large degree will be of someone who squandered what was perhaps Israel's best opportunity to achieve the most it could in the
00:59:16next seventy as of its existence but I broke until thank you

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