Soulful Chats: Embracing Spirituality in Psychology and Midlife with Psychologist Belinda Bayliss

WEBVTT
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Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to share something special with you.
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If you've been listening to our conversations about integrating screw trial into therapy, you might be wondering where to start with your own clients.
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To help you with that, I've created a free guide called 20 Client Conversation Starters, X Exploring Spirituality Ethically.
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Now, these aren't just any random questions.
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They're carefully crafted prompts designed to open up meaningful dialogue while respecting ethical boundaries and diverse beliefs.
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With each question, you will be given a context for when and how to raise it with a client to provide you with that extra guidance.
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You can download this guide right now by heading to the link in the show notes.
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Let me know how you go with using this conversation.
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Starters, I'd love to hear from you.
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Now, today's episode.
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Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast.
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I'm your host, Tatiana DaSilva.
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Join me as we discuss what it means to live an integrated life and explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater meaning, peace and connection by integrating the wisdom of spirituality, psychology.
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Neuroscience, epigenetics and energy psychology.
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I hope to empower you to create deeper and more loving connections with yourself and others, whilst also paving the way for humanity at large to be reimagined and inspired to become the very best version of it.
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Hello and welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast.
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Thank you so much for joining me for yet another week.
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Today I bring another one of my favorite segments, the Soulful Chats, and I'm so excited to have a dear friend and colleague.
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Join me today for what I am sure will be a very.
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Exciting and helpful conversation for many of our listeners, particularly those that are women.
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So I am joined today by Belinda Baileys.
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She's a psychologist, educator, and menopause advocate with over 20 years of experience after navigating medical menopause at age 26 following cancer treatment, Belinda became passionate about improving.
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How health professionals support women through midlife and menopause.
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She now trains and educates psychologists, counselors, and allied health professionals on the psychological impacts of menopause, helping them provide more informed, compassionate care.
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Belinda brings a warm, practical approach to her teaching, challenging, outdated narratives and empowering professionals to better serve midlife women.
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I'm so excited for this chat.
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Welcome, be.
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Oh, thank you.
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I am so here for this chat.
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And, you know, just a, a little behind the scenes sneak peek.
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Just before we jumped on, I was asking Bell for advice on my own perimenopause journey at the moment, which is doing my head in, and she has been a wealth of knowledge and support.
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So I'm sure as we talk through her own spiritual journey, we'll also be able to talk about some of those insights and expertise that she, she brings to the table.
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I am happy to be here.
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So on that, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about you, a little bit more than what I've just said.
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Yeah, so I'm a psychologist and have been floating around the space in different roles for about, roughly 20 years.
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Now.
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Previous to that, I was a high school teacher, so that really informs the way in which I do psychology.
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It's really, I, I have that absolute belief that knowledge is power.
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So I want, I want people to know sort of not just what's happening for them, but you know, a little bit of an understanding about, about why that is.
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And I think that it, that flow through of my passion sort of extends to, to many areas of my life.
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And, the, the one that's sort of sitting in that space right now is sort of supporting women in perimenopause and menopause because it's such a, a point and a, a transition in, it's a life transition and a change point.
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And I think that I think we've silenced it a lot and I don't think that it's something I agree with.
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Yeah.
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No, absolutely.
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And it is, it's, it's scary as you start to learn more and more about what this stage of life means for women in particular, it's mind blowing just how much there is, right.
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That we didn't know, and we're all just kind of feeling our way in the darkness and trying to, to make the best of a situation that doesn't need to be so challenging.
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Yeah.
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And, and while it is that space, you know, it's, it's been that taboo space.
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The impact and the ripple effect of it is, is so vast because if we think about it, it does affect women in midlife.
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But we know that per can start anywhere from around 35 as our estrogen starts to decline.
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Well, it does affect that particular woman.
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That woman might also be holding the space as mother or as daughter or as partner or, you know, there's so many roles and, and we're now living with these women who maybe are seeing that transition point and that change in, in who they are and how they feel.
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So it's a, it, it isn't everybody impact, even though women are, are the ones living with it.
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Yeah.
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Very well said.
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So on that note, then can, maybe we should go back to your own journey with spirituality and then we can see how that inco like leads into
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Yeah.
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the midlife juncture.
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So what's the, sparked your interest in spirituality?
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Reflecting on this, so I grew up in.
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Anglo Christian household, although not, not your go to church on Sundays.
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Mom, my mom and dad, uh, met through the church, but it was Friday Youth Group, so I don't know that it was, uh, it was that, you know, in, in every Sunday type of thing.
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So we, I.
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We for our family, it was off to Sunday school on Sundays and, and we were a bit older youth group.
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And as I aged, it didn't seem to, that idea of organized religion didn't seem to resonate for me because I would see people who, who were religious, but who.
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Sometimes weren't the nicest of people.
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So as a, as a sort of emerging teen, there was that real questioning of, well, is this actually the nicest and most compassionate way for people to be?
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I.
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I do know that, uh, there was a couple of, of points where I moved back towards the church a little bit.
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So I I lost my best friend when we were 20.
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He died in a car accident and that was, that pulled me back to that space of, of.
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Needing something.
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And I attended church for a little while and, and you know, in all honesty, the local reverend, he was, he was amazing support for my family at that, that time, because although he was a friend, he was also almost part of the, you know, unofficial family.
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So it was a really huge loss.
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But I also know how religion played a part in, in his death as well, because he was raised as, you know, Vietnamese Catholic, and despite the fact that he didn't go to church and he was not, not a religious person, it was, you know, that the family needing that service.
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Again, it put that real disruption point for me around religion versus spirituality and beliefs and, and that type of thing.
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And I think that kicked in again, probably around my cancer diagnosis.
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So all of a sudden at, at 26 out of nowhere, being faced with your own mortality, it really leads to that, that questioning space.
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And, and again, like most of us who, who reach a challenge point, we, we go looking, we tr we try to seek reason or, or rhyme to it.
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And I sort of floated back towards the church and I have this moment of sitting in a church service.
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And the resonance of the singing was overwhelming.
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Like I just felt such an emotional positioning there.
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But it was an overwhelm and, and I didn't go back after that.
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It was just, it was too much for whatever reason.
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And I sort of put it all aside for a while, but emerging in the side was sort of an interest in Buddhism.
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Right.
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So it aligned better with my own sense of beliefs.
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So this idea of so for me, heaven didn't make logical sense.
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And it was a logical part of my brain, which, you know, that's why we psychologists.
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But there was that idea that there wasn't.
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There was this place that we all went to if we were good, but if we were bad, then we went somewhere else.
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And the human can be both for those things.
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So we can have moments where we are incredibly compassionate and there are other times where we are maybe not so great.
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And it didn't, it didn't sort of resonate for me.
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So, moving into something, the, the other thing that sat there was this idea that, how did we just stop existing?
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Like how to get, and that probably started to question with, with my friends passing, like, how do we just stop?
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And that idea of energy.
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And I think that for me, moving into that need for some type of maybe structure I started exploring Buddhism and, and it felt like a, a more comfortable fit in some of the beliefs that sat there.
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Oh wow.
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Fantastic.
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So what would you say was the first, I guess, spiritual concept that you began your exploration with?
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Like when you actually started to dive into understanding spirituality.
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Philosophy.
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I really think that, I think it comes back to that notion of existence, like how do we just exist and then not exist?
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How do we.
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How do we find joy in spaces but not others?
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How do we connect with some people and not others?
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So that idea of it's, it's not as black and white as the way we live our lives according to a book, uh, to a book.
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There are sort of so many other elements to human existence distance that aren't easily explained.
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And there was a curiosity in there about what is this?
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Thing, how do I connect with self?
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How do I connect with others?
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How do I connect with my environment?
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And I think the curiosity about the spiritual space was all sort of fed by those, those questions.
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Yeah.
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Fantastic.
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So what benefits for you on a personal level first did you find from having spiritual, a spiritual perspective or incorporating spirituality into your life?
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I think, I think the notion of getting to know self in a way that isn't necessarily written in doctrine.
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Mm-hmm.
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that makes sense.
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So that, that freedom to be, to live without that level of judgment.
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Mm-hmm.
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if we, if we come back to that spirituality versus religion space, that it's not just that straightforward.
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It is or it isn't because there's humans are not black and white per se.
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We're quite gray in our, in our existence.
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I think viewing things from a, a bigger picture that interconnectedness.
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There's a part of me and, and it's not really spirituality, but I think as, as humans to think that we are the only existence in the universe is pretty arrogant.
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The universe.
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That's right.
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That's right.
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So I think that, I think that that perspective, and whether we call that spirituality or, or what word we wanna label, I think that idea that you know, we exist for a short time, but what is, what is the purpose and intent?
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How do we connect and, and what, what resonates for us?
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And I think resonance is really important in spirituality.
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Oh, 100%.
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Yeah.
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Because I think that's, that's how we start to identify the things that speak to us on that deeper level.
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Right.
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And, and start to lead us back.
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Back into the right path as opposed to knowing when we're in spaces that don't actually fit.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And, and also I think not just that, but living under doctrines and beliefs that don't seem to, to fit either.
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So I, I very much have a strong belief, belief in the power of kindness and compassion.
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And I think that some of the things that we see show up in, in a, across a multitude of religious spaces aren't necessarily compassionate or kind.
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And so I think the space of spirituality allows us to lean into what we believe our beliefs and purposes are,
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Hmm.
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and without judgment.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Absolutely.
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'cause I think when you have that perspective, you can also appreciate the fact that we're all on this journey of evolving as individuals, right?
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And we, we're all at different stages, but we're all kind of working towards becoming a better version of ourselves or a, you know, a more fully realized version of ourselves.
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And you can, you can give people grace when you can see that.
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and I definitely have an inherent belief in the goodness of people.
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some call it naive.
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I just call it the way I wanna perceive the world.
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Well, I am wired the same way Bell, so
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I love that.
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I'm gonna biasly agree with you.
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I do think most of us are good, and even those of us that aren't, we're not bad.
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We're just, uh, not aware.
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Yeah.
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Or, or learning.
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Yeah.
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Learning.
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I think it's the intent behind what we, what we sort of put out and try to do in the world.
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That's important and, and sometimes it doesn't always land as, as kindly or as compassionately as it could.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So have you found that there's been any opportunity for you to weave some of this into your, like your professional offerings?
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And if so, like what kind of benefits have you found from doing that?
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Yeah, sorry.
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It's interesting.
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I was, I was trained 20 years ago in psychology.
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Mm-hmm.
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And there was part of our training that talked about how do we bring someone's spirituality or their religion into the room.
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Like it was part of that whole, whole person sitting with us as opposed to what can sometimes be quite a medicalized or pathologized model.
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Uh, I think if we see the whole person.
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That is, that has so much more value.
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And there will be times where I'm sitting with clients and, and I will ask, you know, so, so tell me about how faith or spirituality or religion, you know, feeds into this situation and, and finding that people particularly in crisis will, will revert to that.
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Space of, of faith on, on a slightly tangent, but similar note sitting with clients who are our indigenous populations, our First nations people, like that's that connection to, to country and, and asking about that.
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And I recall one, one person who was, was having quite a time and.
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They hadn't mentioned anywhere about this, this their, their cultural heritage and they said something around they hadn't been to visit their grandmother who was an aboriginal.
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And, and I just sort of, I asked the question, you know, where's your mob?
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When was the last time you were on country?
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Mm.
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And there was a physical reaction to that.
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There was almost like a, a.
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A holding that they let go and they physically just sort of just slumped into that.
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And they said, it is so long since someone has asked me that.
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And they were able to talk about it and reflect on it and what it meant to them.
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Now did that provide healing?
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I don't know.
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I do know that they, they, they took two weeks off sessions and, and went back to country for a couple of weeks because that they, they went back because for them they're like, you're right.
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I need some healing.
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So it looks like so many things for so many people, and we don't have the answers, but we can ask the questions for people to explore their own space.
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Absolutely.
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It's about giving them that permission.
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Right?
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Because I think that, yeah, for some people there's a misconception that that's not the space for those sorts of conversations.
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no.
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But if we're talking about human existence and human experience, we're talking about all of
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Yeah, yeah.
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I've had clients sit with me and, and there's another memory that sits there a number of years ago now about someone who was asking me about my, my thoughts around death and, and what that was.
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And, and I thought that was a really unusual question, particularly as we knew that it was the last session we were going to be sitting in that we decided that, you know, therapy got to point where they were.
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They were doing okay.
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And, and this was our last sort of check in.
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And I sort of gave, gave a brief, but then the curiosity as to why you asked that.
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And they felt a, a connection as they saw it with people who had passed.
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And that was, that was part of their spiritual.
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Awake your awarenesses that they had this and, and they mentioned that there'd been a spirit hanging around the room.
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And well, two actually, and, and I just said, I, I didn't know really how to reply and I just said, oh, I'm, I'm sorry about that.
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And the interesting thing is she said to me sort of, ah, so and describe them.
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And she's like, do you know who that might be?
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And I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure if, if you are detecting spirits, I can probably know who they are.
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And I'm, I'm sorry.
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They've been annoying.
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But you know, that, that just permission, uh, you know, I wasn't psycho pathologizing them.
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I wasn't saying, oh, you know, delusional hallucinations, but this person was very comfortable and, and in that space, and it was that questioning about, do I have permission to share this experience with you in the room?
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And it was a, the curiosity of the therapist to allow that space for people to explore what's there.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I was even having this conversation earlier today with some other colleagues about the fact that really our training is lacking significantly in helping us be able to discern between spiritual abilities.
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Like mediumship or web, you know, individuals can connect with spirit and receive those sorts of communications versus psychosis.
00:19:08.865 --> 00:19:11.115
Those two exist, but they're distinct.
00:19:12.226 --> 00:19:22.635
and we now have a lot of scientific data that shows that, like that the identifying factors that you would use to discern one from the
00:19:22.871 --> 00:19:23.090
Mm.
00:19:24.165 --> 00:19:28.066
and why aren't we not being trained in, in identifying these things?
00:19:28.125 --> 00:19:29.175
And so, Yeah.
00:19:29.536 --> 00:19:32.445
And, and it's, it's, it's curious.
00:19:32.445 --> 00:19:40.455
I think early on, sort of my experience of that type of space was, uh, I, I went to have a reiki healing.
00:19:40.455 --> 00:19:44.685
I was in a place of change in my life and was looking for things.
00:19:44.986 --> 00:19:46.935
So I went to Reiki healing and, and.
00:19:47.105 --> 00:19:50.226
The practitioner said, I also channel people who've passed.
00:19:50.226 --> 00:19:51.185
Are you interested?
00:19:51.635 --> 00:20:07.506
And I'm super skeptical and, and my brain went to, you know, and, and without the sounding crass, but what my brain thought was, you know, I'll bring on the past or the deceased grandparent because I was at that age where I would likely have a deceased grandparent or a, or a great grandparent.
00:20:07.836 --> 00:20:09.726
They sort of got to a point and they said, someone's come through.
00:20:09.726 --> 00:20:10.506
Do you wanna know?
00:20:10.506 --> 00:20:11.496
And I'm like, sure.
00:20:11.915 --> 00:20:12.875
Cynical self.
00:20:13.326 --> 00:20:25.746
And they, they basically identified, and I mentioned that I had a friend who passed away at 20 and they basically said to me, A young man has come through and he, and he wants to know why you're angry with him.
00:20:26.226 --> 00:20:27.455
I was like, fully died.
00:20:29.810 --> 00:20:37.296
And, and that was really, that was really curious because they were, they actually gave another really strong piece of information that they couldn't have known.
00:20:37.846 --> 00:20:42.566
And so I remember they were sort of hovering around my, I, my cancer was cervical.
00:20:42.566 --> 00:20:43.346
They were sort of hovering.
00:20:43.346 --> 00:20:44.605
They said, you've had cancer.
00:20:44.605 --> 00:20:46.135
And I'm like, mm-hmm.
00:20:46.401 --> 00:20:47.935
Like, I'm not giving you anything here.
00:20:48.905 --> 00:20:49.195
Yeah.
00:20:49.201 --> 00:20:49.270
Yeah,
00:20:49.736 --> 00:20:53.290
and they just said, you know, they want me, they want me to tell you that you're okay.
00:20:54.580 --> 00:20:55.090
yeah.
00:20:55.181 --> 00:20:55.691
it was.
00:20:55.871 --> 00:20:56.411
And, and
00:20:56.651 --> 00:20:56.800
Yeah.
00:20:56.891 --> 00:21:03.401
it, it wasn't a medium reading and not that I, I'm, you know, either way on those, it was, it was a$30 reiki healing.
00:21:03.401 --> 00:21:04.661
So there was no gain.
00:21:04.810 --> 00:21:07.000
There was no gain for this person in that space.
00:21:07.540 --> 00:21:10.661
And that was enough for me to go, oh, there's something there.
00:21:10.721 --> 00:21:12.250
I'll respect it at arm's length.
00:21:16.435 --> 00:21:16.726
yeah.
00:21:16.836 --> 00:21:17.405
Fair enough.
00:21:21.836 --> 00:21:22.125
Path.
00:21:23.816 --> 00:21:26.996
Making sense, all those sort of experiences right, resonates
00:21:27.026 --> 00:21:41.885
And I think, I think it is becoming harder in that we put, we leave so much of a digital footprint now, so I think that unfortunately there is a space for people who are maybe less than ethical to, to lean into that, you know, track that digital footprint.
00:21:41.885 --> 00:21:45.425
But, there was, I, I had no real digital footprint.
00:21:45.486 --> 00:21:47.346
I don't even think I had Facebook back then.
00:21:47.510 --> 00:21:48.530
So Yeah.
00:21:48.726 --> 00:21:53.076
So there was, there was really nowhere that it, it could have been gathered from.
00:21:53.346 --> 00:22:04.000
So it was curious, but it certainly it was it sort of like an evidential proof almost, or in an anecdotal way that someone knew something that they couldn't or shouldn't have.
00:22:04.881 --> 00:22:05.101
Yes.
00:22:06.280 --> 00:22:06.861
And then that.
00:22:10.020 --> 00:22:10.441
Yeah.
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:17.461
But then from a therapy perspective, if somebody was bringing that through a room, what would we start thinking of, of their behaviors?
00:22:17.461 --> 00:22:19.621
Would we try to pathologize them?
00:22:19.621 --> 00:22:23.881
Would we start, you know, wondering and, and I think you're absolutely right.
00:22:23.881 --> 00:22:36.550
The training for therapists to be able to distinguish between those two spaces and at least be curious enough to ask the questions is really important in our, in our space to go forward as a profession.
00:22:36.641 --> 00:22:36.671
I.
00:22:37.346 --> 00:22:38.365
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:38.546 --> 00:22:39.266
Absolutely.
00:22:39.925 --> 00:23:09.836
So on that, and you know, I've, I've spoken very openly on this podcast, but also I think in some conversations that you and I have had and other people that we know have had around the fear that permeates us in our profession around talking about spirituality, I think it's, it's definitely a, a much more open landscape today, but like I would say 10 years ago to be a psychologist in a room talking openly about this stuff, mediumship and things like that, like that just wouldn't happen.
00:23:10.385 --> 00:23:20.945
So would from your, like your own lived experience, have you had any fears around, I guess, combining those two things, being a psychologist and being spiritually minded?
00:23:21.615 --> 00:23:23.536
And if so, how did you overcome that fear?
00:23:24.256 --> 00:23:25.125
I think that.
00:23:25.455 --> 00:23:35.445
Because, you know, I'm, 20 years ago this was, this was part of our conversation when sitting with people sort of, I guess there's that old school training that.
00:23:35.836 --> 00:23:51.195
We sit with the person with all of their parts you know, and, and that is if they're spiritual, if they're holistic, if they're and it is to support them and advocate for them where they're at while being mindful of whether or not this is, you know, impacting in any big way.
00:23:51.195 --> 00:23:53.476
Because what we are looking for is, is this causing harm?
00:23:54.540 --> 00:23:55.080
Yes.
00:23:55.500 --> 00:24:05.851
And I, I really believe that the profession has swung too far The other way that we are also fearful of having human conversations.
00:24:05.851 --> 00:24:05.881
I.
00:24:07.060 --> 00:24:10.361
That we can sit with that, that risk.
00:24:10.361 --> 00:24:14.020
And do I raise this with, is this person going to put a complaint in?
00:24:14.411 --> 00:24:24.611
There is a, it's a sad indictment in the profession when we have a general term where we refer to our, our professional body as a, or sorry, our registrate registering body as a jail.
00:24:25.270 --> 00:24:27.070
Like that is, that is a.
00:24:27.941 --> 00:24:30.851
That isn't got, that has to be addressed in some ways.
00:24:30.851 --> 00:24:35.601
And I believe that they're trying, I know the latest psych Board of Australia came out with that.
00:24:35.601 --> 00:24:42.141
They're going to try and make it not so for be, can't find a better word right now, but witch hunty.
00:24:42.651 --> 00:24:43.941
So there is, there is that idea.
00:24:46.820 --> 00:24:49.971
I hadn't thought about that, but Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:50.330 --> 00:24:53.391
But I, I do, I do think if I was.
00:24:53.766 --> 00:24:58.566
You know, and it doesn't mean that I'm immune to complaints or anything.
00:24:58.986 --> 00:25:10.925
I think being in the profession for a little bit longer has, has sort of allowed me the space to feel a calmness and, and being able to read my clients and which ones that I would raise this conversation with and which ones I wouldn't.
00:25:11.526 --> 00:25:16.955
I think if I were new into the profession now, I think it would be a really hard topic to approach.
00:25:17.645 --> 00:25:20.675
I don't think there's the training in new graduates for this.
00:25:20.945 --> 00:25:29.435
I don't, I think it's more a pathologized, you know, the first two sessions should really about be about treatment planning is, is what I hear.
00:25:29.435 --> 00:25:35.736
And, you know, make sure that you've got a treatment plan and you've, you've done this and you've diagnosed and you've medicalized
00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:36.921
Yeah.
00:25:37.236 --> 00:25:39.246
and my first session is, hey.
00:25:40.385 --> 00:25:42.336
Let's have a chat and find out who you are.
00:25:42.455 --> 00:25:43.685
You know, the questions.
00:25:44.185 --> 00:25:47.996
I definitely sit under a positive psychology framework, so that might be a little bit different.
00:25:48.026 --> 00:25:52.945
But the questions I do my spiel at the beginning, you know, here are the, here are the boundaries.
00:25:52.945 --> 00:25:57.056
This is, you know, if you tell me this, then I may need to seek support outside the room.
00:25:57.056 --> 00:26:02.306
We know them, the interest spiel, but my questions for my clients on a first session is two things.
00:26:02.306 --> 00:26:08.185
I'm curious in what got you through the door and if coming to see me made a difference, what might that look like?
00:26:09.221 --> 00:26:09.881
Yeah.
00:26:10.435 --> 00:26:11.246
questions
00:26:11.830 --> 00:26:12.641
Beautiful.
00:26:13.705 --> 00:26:17.365
clients can, so can't sometimes tell you why they're coming to see you.
00:26:18.496 --> 00:26:18.715
No,
00:26:18.925 --> 00:26:27.246
That, and then it might take two sessions and we might treatment plan in the first session and third session, they're like, I actually I'm an alcoholic.
00:26:28.145 --> 00:26:29.705
But until there's a trust in the space.
00:26:29.705 --> 00:26:39.965
So if we spend, if we spend the first two hours medicalizing our space and not connecting, then how do we establish that therapeutic alignment, you know?
00:26:40.355 --> 00:26:40.415
Yeah.
00:26:40.415 --> 00:26:46.415
Where people are comfortable to say, I have an issue with alcohol, or I'm questioning my spirituality.
00:26:46.715 --> 00:26:49.625
Or whatever it is that is in there.
00:26:49.625 --> 00:26:56.165
Like, am I going crazy because all of a sudden I, I feel like I can, you know, I, I feel like I know what's gonna happen.
00:26:56.405 --> 00:26:57.096
Am I crazy?
00:26:57.215 --> 00:26:58.596
You know, have I got a brain tumor?
00:26:59.750 --> 00:26:59.990
Yeah.
00:27:00.786 --> 00:27:06.516
You know, or, or women in midlife who come in and can't find their words and think they have dementia like.
00:27:06.651 --> 00:27:08.151
Oh gosh, yes.
00:27:08.211 --> 00:27:09.020
That's me at the moment.
00:27:11.151 --> 00:27:20.391
Yeah, if we look at the medicalization of the menopause peral space, women are being sent to multiple medical professionals.
00:27:20.391 --> 00:27:22.221
So, oh, you've got a sore shoulder.
00:27:22.221 --> 00:27:23.000
It's probably frozen.
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:24.351
So shoulder, go and see this.
00:27:24.381 --> 00:27:25.161
Oh, your feet hurt.
00:27:25.161 --> 00:27:26.361
You need a podiatrist.
00:27:26.661 --> 00:27:29.601
Oh, you've got a burning sensa sensation on your tongue.
00:27:29.961 --> 00:27:34.941
Oh, you probably need to go and see, you know, a a third, A ENT type.
00:27:35.576 --> 00:27:57.925
Because that's, whereas these are all, if we have a chat with someone, we might go, actually, the alignment here is there are perimenopause symptoms, so where we leave the human outside the room and whether that's their presentation, their spirituality, then we are, you are risking losing what makes our profession that compassionate profession.
00:27:58.165 --> 00:27:58.526
It should be.
00:28:00.141 --> 00:28:00.651
yeah.
00:28:00.861 --> 00:28:04.726
But also, but also worrying ineffective in helping our clients.
00:28:05.566 --> 00:28:05.855
Yeah,
00:28:06.471 --> 00:28:09.080
Because we're only in, and I don't speak just for psychology.
00:28:09.080 --> 00:28:10.730
I think it's all of all of health.
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:19.971
When we're just looking at symptoms or we're like looking at systems, like components of people, we're missing the whole process.
00:28:20.030 --> 00:28:20.901
Like the whole context.
00:28:20.901 --> 00:28:22.730
It's all happening in, right?
00:28:22.881 --> 00:28:27.510
That, that silo siloing of, of the medical profession.
00:28:27.810 --> 00:28:29.971
Actually, I think I.
00:28:29.971 --> 00:28:30.705
Things are being missed.
00:28:30.766 --> 00:28:31.996
Gps don't have time.
00:28:31.996 --> 00:28:36.556
He used to be the holder and, and the conduit of all the knowledge at Central Point.
00:28:36.766 --> 00:28:45.016
They're so very busy now, and, and they get what, 10, 15 minutes with a person to actually say, oh, you've got seven reports here that are all report.
00:28:45.076 --> 00:28:47.865
You know, I think we, we are missing that and I.
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:59.250
In a way, I feel like as psychologists, we are privileged because if someone sits with us, there's an expectation that we are with them from 50 minutes to an hour and we can get those other pieces.
00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:11.520
And, and I know there has definitely been times where I've needed to feed some of that information back to the GP around the context of what, what's going on, because the GP has only had 10 minutes and, and been under that pressure.
00:29:12.435 --> 00:29:13.695
Yeah, 100%.
00:29:14.145 --> 00:29:17.145
So I do hope that things are starting to shift away from that.
00:29:17.576 --> 00:29:19.316
And like I know obviously that in our.
00:29:20.141 --> 00:29:29.260
In psychology in Australia, they're introducing some new competencies from the end of this year that are going to ask us to look at individuals a little bit more holistically, right?
00:29:29.260 --> 00:29:39.631
Like, we'll factor in other aspects of, of their lived experience, like their, their cultural aspects, their neurodivergent needs but also their spiritual beliefs.
00:29:39.631 --> 00:29:39.780
So.
00:29:40.621 --> 00:29:44.520
I, yeah, we're starting to kind of course correct.
00:29:44.971 --> 00:29:45.691
But we need to be
00:29:45.796 --> 00:29:47.445
It's always gonna be a pendulum, isn't it?
00:29:50.296 --> 00:29:54.435
I do believe that we need to keep our professional ethical hats on.
00:29:54.435 --> 00:30:00.496
I don't think we need to pathologize as much as some parts of our professional pushing.
00:30:01.530 --> 00:30:02.401
Yeah, I agree.
00:30:02.806 --> 00:30:14.250
I mean, I mean this is not a conversation for this podcast, but like just a lot like the fact that today people can have five or six diagnostic labels blows my mind.
00:30:15.080 --> 00:30:15.371
Yeah.
00:30:15.421 --> 00:30:15.810
Right.
00:30:16.201 --> 00:30:21.060
I'm pretty sure we are supposed to identify the one that explains the most,
00:30:21.496 --> 00:30:21.705
Yeah.
00:30:21.705 --> 00:30:23.746
That's why we have differential diagnosis, isn't it?
00:30:24.496 --> 00:30:36.556
Exactly, because most there, there's overlap in most things, but when like, you can't possibly have all these things, like you're just explaining, oh, this explains this symptom, this explains that symptom again.
00:30:36.556 --> 00:30:40.590
Like that's how you end up with too many labels and it's, yeah, it's
00:30:40.625 --> 00:30:49.770
and, and I think it's, I think it's confusing for our, the people we sit with too, whether we call them our patients or our clients, because the DSM is constantly expanding.
00:30:50.270 --> 00:30:59.990
And there's more, my professional opinion and my personal opinion is that there are more things in there that are, are, are in some ways just normal human traits.
00:31:00.786 --> 00:31:01.236
Agreed
00:31:02.391 --> 00:31:11.855
but then we also see with the, you know, the expansion of social media clients now coming to us saying, Hey, I think I've got this.
00:31:12.096 --> 00:31:13.336
I saw it on TikTok.
00:31:15.320 --> 00:31:19.820
And, and, and I'm just like, let me get my dsm, let's run through this.
00:31:20.090 --> 00:31:21.111
Let's have a look at it.
00:31:21.111 --> 00:31:27.290
So, yes, but you know, I know you're saying this, but it can also be explained by the fact that you already have a diagnosis of this.
00:31:28.161 --> 00:31:28.461
You know?
00:31:28.461 --> 00:31:35.181
So I think that there are so many elements to existing as a human that I think we need to value all of them.
00:31:36.050 --> 00:31:36.861
Absolutely.
00:31:36.891 --> 00:31:38.810
That's why it all needs to be integrated, right?
00:31:38.810 --> 00:31:41.810
Like, Yeah, we're, we're much more powerful that way.
00:31:41.810 --> 00:31:43.971
And then we can empower our clients much more that way.
00:31:44.566 --> 00:31:44.855
Yeah.
00:31:45.201 --> 00:31:46.221
Isn't that what we want though?
00:31:46.221 --> 00:31:58.611
Isn't I often, I joke that we have like the worst business model ever because our, our actual, you know, target is for our clients not to need us anymore.
00:32:00.711 --> 00:32:03.861
Uh, I make the same joke with my clients.
00:32:04.161 --> 00:32:06.800
My goal here is to become obsolete in your life.
00:32:07.955 --> 00:32:08.885
It's business model ever.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:11.480
It really is.
00:32:13.490 --> 00:32:15.111
Uh, but yeah, but it's true.
00:32:15.510 --> 00:32:16.921
So, okay, so on that.
00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:26.740
What value do you see for psychologists and therapists in general in embracing their spiritual selves or at least be more curious about spirituality?
00:32:27.681 --> 00:32:30.260
Uh, I think there is so much value in.
00:32:32.141 --> 00:32:34.391
Having and knowing that part of yourself.
00:32:35.111 --> 00:32:35.230
Hmm,
00:32:35.691 --> 00:32:50.270
We sit in rooms with people where we can be advocate, we can be challenger, we can be support guide, like whatever word or or role we wanna use, but having that idea of being.
00:32:50.840 --> 00:32:56.931
Grounded in our, within ourselves, I truly believe has a flow on effect to our clients.
00:32:56.931 --> 00:33:04.671
If you're sitting with somebody who is, is grounded and I think spirituality can can assist with that sense of feeling grounded.
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:10.496
I think that we in that space just allow a safer space for our clients.
00:33:11.691 --> 00:33:12.201
Yeah.
00:33:12.530 --> 00:33:13.280
Absolutely.
00:33:14.165 --> 00:33:15.971
But even on a personal level, what would you say
00:33:17.270 --> 00:33:23.570
For me, it, it's so vast, really.
00:33:23.810 --> 00:33:26.750
Uh, I am very much, I, I.
00:33:27.516 --> 00:33:31.175
Do my best to live my life aligned to Buddhist ethics.
00:33:31.175 --> 00:33:36.036
So, you know, kindness, compassion, you know, being a decent human.
00:33:36.935 --> 00:33:49.276
If, if you look that, that was what drew me to Buddhism in that it's really, I remember being questioned when I was not being questioned, but someone was chatting with me because I was looking at doing my triple gem.
00:33:49.276 --> 00:33:54.435
Which is your first sort of, I guess, movement into being a, a.
00:33:55.201 --> 00:33:58.590
I don't know, noticed or registered, but I don't know.
00:33:58.711 --> 00:34:13.141
It's, anyway, you do your triple gem as your first step and the one of it is so is that there's sort of five ways to live your life and, and I remember sitting with this person and they told me, and I'm like, oh, so basically just being a decent human.
00:34:14.791 --> 00:34:26.610
It's like, it's like, don't, don't hurt people when you're in, you know, don't move into, into drug use or things that are gonna sort of have you break the others, you know, don't cheat, don't steal, don't lie.
00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:31.050
Like just the, the basic things that we see as, as, as common decency.
00:34:31.291 --> 00:34:32.251
So I really like that.
00:34:32.251 --> 00:34:35.820
I have an anchoring point for that helps me with.
00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:37.590
Decision making and living.
00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:46.681
So, you know, I very much, you know, sit with that, you know, kindness of thoughts, kindness of words, kindness indeed that they're very tenant to myself.
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:54.661
But then there's other things beyond that that I can't explain the fact that when I am by beach, I am a karma person.
00:34:55.021 --> 00:35:01.891
I have that resonance in that water space and, and for me that, that leans into that spiritual home.
00:35:02.731 --> 00:35:09.271
The curious thing is, uh, recently I was, I've been looking at a little bit at human design just on the side, and
00:35:09.306 --> 00:35:09.780
Oh yeah.
00:35:09.990 --> 00:35:12.121
it came up with my, my space is Sure.
00:35:12.661 --> 00:35:15.300
And I'm just like, like S-H-O-R-E and I'm just like, yep.
00:35:15.391 --> 00:35:15.960
By the water.
00:35:16.876 --> 00:35:17.501
There you go.
00:35:17.610 --> 00:35:25.081
It was just, so I think that the fact that we have that, that bigger.
00:35:26.925 --> 00:35:39.286
Is really important and, and how we wanna word that and where that sits in our space, I think is, is very personal thing, but having it allows us just to lean into being the person we want more.
00:35:40.335 --> 00:35:40.666
Yeah.
00:35:40.666 --> 00:35:41.626
100%.
00:35:41.626 --> 00:35:42.436
So beautifully said.
00:35:43.715 --> 00:35:55.956
So on that, a final reflection, if you had to pick one transformative aspect of embracing spirituality more fully, both on that personal and professional level, what aspect would that be for you?
00:35:58.820 --> 00:36:02.925
The first thing that comes to mind is gonna sound weird, and that is just connection to the breath.
00:36:04.266 --> 00:36:05.106
Okay.
00:36:05.146 --> 00:36:05.465
for me.
00:36:06.710 --> 00:36:07.851
Breath is life.
00:36:08.150 --> 00:36:12.141
It's, you know, the different spaces have different words for it.
00:36:12.621 --> 00:36:24.440
But I think if we wanna really think about everything that is in our, in our world just breath, come to the breath, connect with your breath, and you connect with bigger things and you connect with yourself.
00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:26.811
It is our conduit between the out and the end.
00:36:27.606 --> 00:36:28.295
That's so true.
00:36:28.686 --> 00:36:29.315
Lovely.
00:36:30.005 --> 00:36:46.436
Uh, so I do have a, a bit of a tradition where I get my guests to recommend a book to the, uh, our listeners where they can begin their journey with exploring spirituality if they're curious about doing that.
00:36:47.141 --> 00:36:49.856
And I would love to hear what your recommendation is.
00:36:52.275 --> 00:37:00.471
It is, it's, it's curious because from spirituality, I don't know that I've actually read too much that would, that I would think would sit under that.
00:37:00.891 --> 00:37:03.030
But definitely the temple.
00:37:03.030 --> 00:37:04.681
I serve master s.
00:37:05.626 --> 00:37:13.346
He's, his work is always very'cause humanistic Buddhism, it's how do we be Buddhists in like a, in a modern world.
00:37:13.826 --> 00:37:15.865
I think it's, is really important.
00:37:16.556 --> 00:37:24.295
But, uh, I do remember, and I'm trying to remember the name of it, and it was something like Zen and the Modern Girl or something.
00:37:24.746 --> 00:37:26.815
It was really, I had that book.
00:37:26.815 --> 00:37:29.815
It was so dogeared because it was just about.
00:37:30.101 --> 00:37:34.061
Ways to approach things just with a sense of calm and coming back to breath.
00:37:34.061 --> 00:37:37.811
And that was one that, that really resonated for me.
00:37:37.815 --> 00:37:40.780
And, and somewhere along the way it got, it was lost.
00:37:41.081 --> 00:37:43.811
But it, it lived beside my bed and it was so dogeared.
00:37:44.030 --> 00:37:45.471
And I don't normally do that to books.
00:37:45.471 --> 00:37:47.630
I'm usually respectful and books get bookmarks.
00:37:47.630 --> 00:37:50.800
But this one, it was way more one that lived with me.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:51.940
It was a living book for me.
00:37:52.885 --> 00:37:53.516
Yeah.
00:37:53.576 --> 00:37:54.686
Oh, wonderful.
00:37:54.936 --> 00:37:57.365
I'll add a link to the show notes to that one.
00:37:57.365 --> 00:38:06.135
It's, I've had so many different books and poems and all sorts of things suggested, like my, my pile of reading material just grows and grows and grows.
00:38:06.391 --> 00:38:16.260
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll I'll definitely get the name through the, I'll, I'll jump online and find it because it was just so practical and, and it was, it was sort of a bit of a life manual at a time when I needed it.
00:38:17.701 --> 00:38:18.510
Fantastic.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:36.541
And, and look, there may not be a neat connection on this right now, but from that, like that midlife perspective and some, what, some of the things that you are, you are witnessing in your space and in your work, where do you see spiritually fitting into that, if at all?
00:38:36.570 --> 00:38:37.170
It may not,
00:38:37.221 --> 00:38:39.346
Oh, I, I definitely think it has a space.
00:38:39.346 --> 00:38:43.786
Spirituality comes up often for us when we hit change or crisis.
00:38:44.721 --> 00:39:03.501
And if we consider what our women in midlife experience around perimenopause, particularly with the silencing of it, the, it's just in your head, which it probably is a little bit because we have, well, we have estrogen and neuroreceptors all at work in the brain.
00:39:03.501 --> 00:39:09.920
So it is, part of it is an a head, but the reality is that we will often go seeking.
00:39:10.521 --> 00:39:20.811
I think when we don't understand, and when perimenopause and midlife start to, to sort of impact, we know it is a, a stage of crisis.
00:39:20.811 --> 00:39:28.701
We know the statistics around mental health and mental health risk increase for women in, in that perimenopause age group.
00:39:29.121 --> 00:39:32.391
Uh, so we know that there is crisis that sits there.
00:39:33.110 --> 00:39:35.541
For some women though, if we have a look at who.
00:39:36.221 --> 00:39:45.550
Might find spirituality in their yoga practice or who do we see that, that are moving towards allowing the hair to grow out and wearing the beads?
00:39:45.550 --> 00:39:57.795
And, you know, if, if we think about, if we think about the people who traditionally might be sort of around, for me it's sort of, you know, the mullumbimby area or, or moving down.
00:39:59.846 --> 00:40:01.496
You know who, who are the Byron?
00:40:01.885 --> 00:40:08.876
There's a lot of women who use that as actually, I need to connect to myself in different ways.
00:40:08.905 --> 00:40:18.565
And I think spirituality has a beautiful place in that, particularly as our estrogen decreases and we become more mindful of our own needs as opposed to the needs of others.
00:40:18.775 --> 00:40:21.295
So estrogen is a very caring hormone.
00:40:21.295 --> 00:40:22.106
It is.
00:40:22.106 --> 00:40:22.286
It.
00:40:22.581 --> 00:40:28.501
We see it happen, you know, we've got three main estrogen dominance points in our or influencing points.
00:40:28.501 --> 00:40:32.190
So we've got sort of puberty, pregnancy, and perimenopause.
00:40:32.641 --> 00:40:35.731
And estrogen plays a role in each of those phases.
00:40:35.731 --> 00:40:43.411
So when we see it declining being such a caring hormone, or it influences our caring nature, when we see that in decline.
00:40:43.710 --> 00:40:48.331
And our estrogen, testosterone starts to, the ratios start to change.
00:40:49.110 --> 00:40:49.530
Yeah.
00:40:49.621 --> 00:40:58.141
find that women start to rediscover themselves because that caring component of their personality is lessening.
00:40:58.831 --> 00:41:04.530
And for a lot of women that will lead that curiosity about spirituality.
00:41:04.621 --> 00:41:12.061
I hear a lot of women say, oh, when I was younger I used to think about this, but I lost that summer along the way, and I'm curious about it again.
00:41:12.916 --> 00:41:16.005
Wow, how fast, how fascinating.
00:41:16.050 --> 00:41:16.590
Yeah.
00:41:16.846 --> 00:41:22.666
So, yeah, like it brings you to this, it awakens this need for authenticity,
00:41:22.771 --> 00:41:23.101
Yeah,
00:41:23.686 --> 00:41:24.076
right?
00:41:24.076 --> 00:41:28.096
And I guess rediscovering and redefining yourself and.
00:41:29.431 --> 00:41:33.210
An intuitive understanding that you need to have that spiritual component.
00:41:33.271 --> 00:41:33.780
Yeah.
00:41:33.780 --> 00:41:40.411
And, and I was sitting behi, I was standing behind a lady in a shop the other day who, who was probably a few years older than me, and she was talking to someone else.
00:41:40.411 --> 00:41:42.271
She said, oh, aging is great.
00:41:42.271 --> 00:41:45.181
You give less cares about anyone else, what anyone else thinks.
00:41:47.521 --> 00:41:51.150
And I'm like, oh, I really, that just, that made me smile because.
00:41:52.081 --> 00:42:05.161
When we do have the freedom not to be using all of our time for caring for others, and, and that doesn't mean that we've necessarily been in the role of, uh, mother, but we are as, as by nature.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.510
Uh, women have estrogen, which impacts that caring role.
00:42:09.510 --> 00:42:12.780
So when that starts to diminish, it actually allows time for self.
00:42:13.726 --> 00:42:14.016
Yeah.
00:42:14.021 --> 00:42:14.940
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:15.721
Absolutely.
00:42:16.311 --> 00:42:16.731
Yeah.
00:42:17.496 --> 00:42:19.175
So I think it's got a huge space.
00:42:20.326 --> 00:42:20.545
Yes.
00:42:20.780 --> 00:42:21.740
Yeah, it does.
00:42:22.010 --> 00:42:33.951
It'll be interesting to see as the conversation start evolving, like now that it's being much more widely spoken of and and understood whether, yeah, these sorts of concepts start weaving in a little bit more
00:42:34.420 --> 00:42:34.710
Yeah.
00:42:35.195 --> 00:42:40.775
I would have to challenge though that, I don't know, it is being more widely spoken about.
00:42:41.661 --> 00:42:49.670
But unless you're actually in that circle, it's, it's not like I sit with people who I just assume everybody knows what I know.
00:42:50.610 --> 00:42:56.490
And, and sitting with people, you know, I had two women last week who had been, I.
00:42:56.731 --> 00:43:03.271
You know, referred and at no point had their menopause transition been addressed by any other person they were seeing.
00:43:03.871 --> 00:43:09.210
So while we, when we're in there, we, we have that idea that everybody's feeling this way.
00:43:09.481 --> 00:43:10.831
There's still a lot of work to be done.
00:43:11.016 --> 00:43:11.436
Mm-hmm.
00:43:11.670 --> 00:43:11.880
No.
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:12.451
No doubt.
00:43:12.570 --> 00:43:13.110
Absolutely.
00:43:14.851 --> 00:43:16.936
And you're one the champions in that space, which is.
00:43:17.295 --> 00:43:18.396
Uh, absolutely.
00:43:18.721 --> 00:43:23.070
I, I've got a real passion for it and I could talk all day on it, as you probably know.
00:43:24.255 --> 00:43:28.846
I also feel that, you know, I, I wanna expand that ripple effect.
00:43:28.846 --> 00:43:40.126
And, and I think not just therapists, but, but anyone who's sort of working alongside women or children of those women or partners of those women that all have a space, uh, to do that.
00:43:40.126 --> 00:43:42.675
As a friend of mine who was, uh, a marathon runner was.
00:43:42.945 --> 00:43:47.385
Told by a physio that, oh, you've just a little bit sore because you passed your years by date.
00:43:47.925 --> 00:43:52.246
Like, like that therapist needs to know that it's better place to talk.
00:43:53.521 --> 00:43:56.161
Especially in this day and age when we're leaving too close to a hundred.
00:43:56.505 --> 00:43:56.775
Yeah.
00:43:57.076 --> 00:44:01.695
Well, no, she was, she was training for like an overseas, like, I think it was New York or Boston Marathon or something.
00:44:01.695 --> 00:44:01.815
So.
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:04.650
That's crazy.
00:44:04.650 --> 00:44:05.251
Wow.
00:44:05.731 --> 00:44:06.181
Alright.
00:44:07.931 --> 00:44:09.911
No, definitely lots, lots of need.
00:44:10.010 --> 00:44:11.210
Lots of change needed.
00:44:11.990 --> 00:44:18.260
Well, thank you so much for, you know, for coming on and, and sharing your, your experience and your insights and wisdom.
00:44:18.260 --> 00:44:22.530
I really appreciate you agree with and talk about this stuff.
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:23.550
Oh, I'm great.
00:44:23.641 --> 00:44:31.291
I'm so grateful for you not only giving me this space, but for all of the, all of the guests and people who come on, and the clients that you sit with.
00:44:31.291 --> 00:44:39.030
I think it's such a beautiful, beautiful work that you do and, and I feel privileged and grateful that, you know, you allow the space for my voice and others.
00:44:39.976 --> 00:44:40.936
Oh, thank you.
00:44:41.365 --> 00:44:46.135
And on that, I would love for you to share a little bit about, you know, where people can find you, how they can work with you.
00:44:47.050 --> 00:45:02.530
Yeah, so my clinical work, so as as a straight psychologist, straight up, I have a practice reset psychology, and I'm based in swi, but telehealth, so that is a space that where.
00:45:02.795 --> 00:45:20.615
Perimenopause and menopause or women can come and feel free to talk about this stuff and to be supported Beyond that, I have flourished beyond, which is a space where I wanna influence changing the narrative around midlife and, and what it means.
00:45:20.615 --> 00:45:27.695
So the menopause, so women in midlife, menopause, all of the different changes, perimenopause and so flourish beyond.
00:45:27.695 --> 00:45:30.425
You can find me on both Instagram and Facebook.
00:45:30.425 --> 00:45:30.726
There.
00:45:31.585 --> 00:45:32.576
Okay, fantastic.
00:45:32.576 --> 00:45:37.226
I'll put all the links in the show notes for anyone who wants to connect with Bell.
00:45:37.646 --> 00:45:40.706
And once again, I'm so excited to have had you here.
00:45:40.706 --> 00:45:44.695
Thank you for the conversation, and I hope.
00:45:45.070 --> 00:45:48.581
All your listeners, have a great week and I'll see you all next time.
00:45:53.833 --> 00:45:57.313
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Integrated Wisdom.
00:45:58.213 --> 00:46:09.344
It's my sincere wish that today's episode may have intrigued and inspired you to reclaim your power and step into becoming more fully integrated spiritual beings.
00:46:10.693 --> 00:46:18.494
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00:46:19.273 --> 00:46:22.934
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00:46:23.503 --> 00:46:25.603
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00:46:27.193 --> 00:46:31.634
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00:46:32.563 --> 00:46:41.414
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00:46:42.284 --> 00:46:48.494
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