AI Built for Teachers, By a Teacher | Thomas Thompson of Eduaide.ai

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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to edtech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top edtech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Welcome to the integrate
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this at tech podcast David and I are really pleased
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to be joined this Today, it's this morning for
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us. That's what I was about to say, but you could
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be listening to this anytime who knows But our
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special guest here today is Thomas Thompson Thomas
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is a former school teacher, but also turned Ed
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tech entrepreneur. He is the CEO and co -founder
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of EduAid AI. And we're really excited to have
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you with us here this morning. Thanks so much.
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I'm excited to be here. Yeah, Thomas, why don't
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you kind of kick things off for us and kind of,
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you know, give our listeners here, you know,
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a little bit of an overview, kind of who you
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are. How did you get into education and then,
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you know, turn that and roll that into, you know,
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founding EduAid? Yeah, certainly. So education
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wasn't The first path I had in mind throughout
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high school, I was quite intent on going for
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pre -law and then going to law school and then
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my 11th grade world history teacher, Mr. Jason
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Clare, convinced me that education in addition
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to being a public good and a foundational human
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right is also one of the more meaningful careers
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one can find themselves in. He also said if you
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ever plan on having kids, you'll be working for
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80 hours as a lawyer You're never gonna see them.
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You might be able to take a nice vacation every
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once in a while But like you're gonna be absent
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for most of their lives and I was like, okay
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This this all is starting to make some sense
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to me. Maybe I'll think about getting into education
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Then I got to for a student project. I got to
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teach a class. I was like, oh this is Pretty
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cool. And then my senior year, the school created
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a whole new elective for me, which was being
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able to shadow Mr. Claire for an entire school
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year, student teach, make his copies, just learn
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at the foot of the master, so to speak. And that
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apprenticeship model was really, I think, what
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gave me the dedication and focus to get into
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it and to do a good job of it and to look at
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it as a craft. And as a craft, there's a bit
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of an art to it. There's a bit of a science to
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it and really understanding what both those parts
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look like. Went to a small state school by where
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I lived studied post -secondary education social
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studies and Started my career as a history teacher.
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I moved out of Western PA. I wanted to go start
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my Start off like on my own strike it up somewhere
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else where I didn't really know anyone That lent
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that put me in the eastern shore of Maryland,
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which is pretty rural area There were cornfields
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literally on all sides of the school building
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where I was teaching like every four corners,
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just cornfields around it, no houses, nothing.
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And I taught there for three years where I met
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the co -founder of EduAid, Thomas Hummel, who
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interestingly enough grew up 15 minutes up the
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street from where I did in Western PA, but we
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never knew each other until we were both teaching
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across the hall. After those three years, I moved
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to another school district closer to home. I
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started my graduate studies at Johns Hopkins,
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which is in Baltimore. I lived in Annapolis,
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so I was driving across the Bay Bridge. It's
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an hour drive to school, an hour drive back,
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then up to school. And it was just a lot. So
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I was like, let me teach closer to home. So I
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started teaching in South Baltimore, did that
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for two years while I finished up my grad work.
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And that's right when we launched EduAid. So
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that's the preface and the life story up to that
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point. Yeah. I think it's really great. David
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and I love first off, bringing social studies
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teachers onto the show, you know, and I think
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once you're a social studies teacher, obviously,
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I think that sticks with you like all time, even
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when you're not in the classroom anymore, because
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it certainly is, you know, a way of looking at
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things. But I also think it's really cool when,
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you know, people can give a shout out to mentors
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that they've had along the way and people that
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have definitely influenced their career paths
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and their life's decisions. And so a shout out
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to your mentor that did that for you. That's
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pretty awesome. And he's on the board of the
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company. So I get to talk to him all the time.
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Yes. to keep that connection going. And I know,
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like, for me, it was Jay Burroughs. And he was
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just, I loved his history classes, just soaked
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up everything that he would bring into the classroom
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and the discussions that we had. And it was just
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really, really cool. You know, I know he's since
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retired, and I've kind of lost track of him since
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then. But, you know, I doubt he's listening,
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but I'd wish him well, too. So EduAid has really
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grown, I think, since the time that you and Thomas
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Hummel got together and kind of fired this thing
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up, that it now is being used by hundreds of
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thousands of educators, even in dozens of different
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countries. What do you think, as far as helping
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to build and grow the company, have been kind
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of your biggest successes and challenges along
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the way? Biggest success is was word of mouth
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right that teachers sharing the tool with other
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teachers I could go out and dump, you know thousands
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of dollars into some robust marketing campaign
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and Target the airports where there's going to
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be conferences and we put up our signs I've seen
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a few of the companies doing that But what's
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really going to convince a teacher at the end
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of the day is another teacher saying hey I've
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been using this it really helped me do my job
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X Y & Z. I think you should give it a try too
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I'm going to take that recommendation much more
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closely than I am, you know some tick -tock I
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saw or something on Instagram reels or some YouTube
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ad or Google ad or whatever We do all of those
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things. Of course, it's the nature of the game.
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But word of mouth is the key lever So to us it's
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build something that is actually speaking teachers
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something that a teacher can actually wrap their
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head around it Folds into their daily practice
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quite nicely, right? We're not trying to get
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them to learn how to do a new system We're not
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trying to force a new teaching method or technique
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on them rather We just want to give the teacher
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a workspace a canvas where they can do their
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work as simply as possible a lot of educational
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technology companies try to I guess shoehorn
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other methods or ideas into the teacher's practice.
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So then the tool ends up feeling like it's one
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more thing I have to do as opposed to something
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that's going to actually assist me in my job.
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So that's one thing we've done well. One thing
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for on the challenge side is certainly understanding
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what every teacher actually does need and doing
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that piece where you try to make it speak to
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a teacher, right? I have my own assumptions about
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what a teacher might find important. It's what
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I found important as a teacher, right? Same with
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my co -founder, but we had to kind of... throw
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off all of those biases and preconceived notions
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and just go out and talk to as many teachers
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as we possibly can, as many building administrators
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as we possibly can, and really as many parents
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as we possibly can to get a sense of how they're
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feeling about their district, what's working,
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what's not. We work with a lot of homeschooling
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cohorts as well, so it's really just staying
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connected and talking to these folks as much
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as possible, getting as much feedback as possible,
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taking what they say quite seriously and making
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changes in the application based on those. Yeah,
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and you know recently you were recognized by
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Forbes as being one of the the top 30 under 30
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in education and you know, I'm certain that has
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had something to do with You know the the efforts
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that you have definitely put behind this Trying
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to make you know, let a teacher first product
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You know that that focuses on those things and
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you know how is that that recognition kind of
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what does it mean to you personally and how is
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it kind of affected how you've approached um
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you know trying to put a good product in front
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of of teachers and you know therefore then by
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extension students yeah i mean there's a lot
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of ways in which you are supposed to run a tech
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company and there's a lot of ways in which edu8
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has not done any of those things, right? You're
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supposed to focus on distribution. You're supposed
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to focus on raising your prices to test whether
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or not you have a moat on your product and, you
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know, dumping a bunch of money into marketing
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and sales and all of these things. But we've
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led with building a tool that is sustainable,
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that can actually do something meaningful for
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teachers and then putting it in their hands and
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then the network effects will take care of themselves
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as they share it around. It's just heartening
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to see. That some other folks noticed what we're
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doing and said hey these guys are doing something
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pretty interesting and it's worth recognition
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So it came as quite a surprise to me as well
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because I thought we're kind of breaking most
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of the typical tech company rules but the fact
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that we got recognized for it is is pretty interesting
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and got quite humbled by the whole experience
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and Finding out the day of that you're actually
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like hey, you're gonna be on this this list congratulations
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like i didn't even realize i was nominated for
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anything this is pretty cool you know it just
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kind of came out of nowhere it was a bit of a
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shock and uh thomas could could you talk a little
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bit just about um the platform itself and how
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i kind of want to touch on a couple things but
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first starting with the what is the platform's
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overall mission what is what is it that um you
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want people to be drawn to that to edge aid for
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more to take away from it or or keep coming back
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to it. What's your overall mission and core purpose
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of the tool? Yeah, certainly. So the. Core mission
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is that. We have a whole bunch of research on
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one hand about how the human mind works, how
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it encodes information, how it retrieves information,
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and those things constrain what does or does
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not work in education. So we have evidence on
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what actually works at the level of the human
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mind in processing, learning, retrieving information.
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And then we have classroom practice on the other
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hand. And oftentimes what we know works is not
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always what gets to happen in the classroom.
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And there's many reasons for this. Limited time,
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limited training, limited budget. But more than
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that, it could be money's getting dumped into
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a pet project like inquiry -based learning or
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something like this at the expense of a teacher
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has to do some pre -teaching and actually get
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into the terms and actually do some direct instruction,
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some worked examples and these kinds of things
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in student practice. It's not all just discovery
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-based learning. So all that preface is to say,
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EduAid's main idea is we want to take what works
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in education. and put it in the hands of teachers
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to plan with. So it's a teacher -facing application.
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It does everything a teacher would need in the
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course of planning. So some teachers still have
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to create lesson plans and unit plans and learning
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objectives. We can assist with that. But we also
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know a lot of teachers are past that stage. They
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have lesson plans they've been working with for
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a long time. They don't need to go back and do
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all that. So that's the materials creation side.
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Worksheets, readings, graphical organizers, instructional
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games, review, practice session, spacing practice
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out over time. How do you do that? When do you
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introduce new material to interleave in with
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the old material? What kind of practice is most
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appropriate? Edu8 assists with all of that deep,
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like, instructional design work. So a teacher
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might come on Edu8 and say, you know, I know
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I'm going to be teaching about the War of 1812.
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OK, I'm going to teach specifically about the
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causes of the War of 1812. And I know that I'm
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going to do a jigsaw activity. We'll break students
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up into groups. We'll have four groups. Each
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group will take a cause. We'll do expert groups.
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We'll come back. We'll do a whole group discussion,
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maybe some sort of formative assessment at the
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end of class to see if they got it. Well, to
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create that jigsaw, I need the protocol to figure
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out how I'm going to break these teams up. how
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I'm going to divide the students in my room.
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Then I'm going to need the materials for each
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group. So I'm going to need the readings. I'm
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going to need the questions. I'm going to need
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the note -taking organizers. I'm going to need
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the rules and directions for the students to
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know what to do with those materials. And then
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I'm going to need to be able to time that out.
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So I need to figure out what that actually is
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going to look like from a management perspective
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of my classroom. And then finally, I need to
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figure out whether or not students actually learned
00:12:52.409 --> 00:12:54.370
anything in this whole exercise. So I need some
00:12:54.370 --> 00:12:56.549
sort of formative assessment, maybe an exit ticket,
00:12:56.649 --> 00:12:58.409
an end of class review, something like this.
00:12:58.889 --> 00:13:00.509
You could do all of that on Edu8. You can create
00:13:00.509 --> 00:13:02.269
the protocol. You can create the readings. You
00:13:02.269 --> 00:13:03.929
can create the materials, the questions, and
00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:06.429
the assessments. And we do all of that with generative
00:13:06.429 --> 00:13:09.250
AI. But generative AI itself is not necessarily
00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.299
the most useful tool for teachers because you
00:13:13.299 --> 00:13:15.559
have things like hallucinations, biases. It can
00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:17.700
speed up things, but can it do things well? That's
00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:20.179
the big question. So we try to solve that problem
00:13:20.179 --> 00:13:22.820
on EduAid and solve the problem of bringing evidence
00:13:22.820 --> 00:13:24.759
-based instruction into the hands of teachers.
00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:29.000
So that was a lot. I can dive into the actual
00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:31.379
mechanics of the sites. People hear about AI,
00:13:31.419 --> 00:13:32.919
they might think we're talking about like chat
00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:35.720
bots. We're not on EduAid's case, but I don't
00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.100
want to ramble on for like a 20 minute block
00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:40.019
and no one got anything out of it, you know?
00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:43.360
No, that's that's okay. And one of the things
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.519
I was gonna ask you actually is You you have
00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:50.899
had to? Iterate and Jade right you you're updating
00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:53.139
it and so one of the more recent things that
00:13:53.139 --> 00:13:56.860
happened is you released the version 3 and So
00:13:56.860 --> 00:13:58.679
some of the things that this kind of what you
00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.740
mentioned to just with instructional alignment
00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:04.879
and how The support that's there in edge aid
00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:08.539
can help a teachers and all those different things
00:14:08.539 --> 00:14:11.009
that you mentioned as they're planning for a
00:14:11.009 --> 00:14:13.669
lesson. But can you talk about what's changed
00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:16.389
from maybe, you don't have to maybe go back to
00:14:16.389 --> 00:14:19.529
the first version unless you can, but like the
00:14:19.529 --> 00:14:22.789
most recent update, what changed and what was
00:14:22.789 --> 00:14:27.529
the feedback that you got to get some improvements
00:14:27.529 --> 00:14:29.950
made for this third version that came out? Yeah.
00:14:30.350 --> 00:14:33.059
So we talked to... dozens and dozens of teachers
00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:35.039
who did hundreds of hours of user interviews
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.899
and feedback sessions. We had people clicking
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:38.980
around, using it, walking us through how they
00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:41.120
plan. And what we've established are a couple
00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:46.720
of things. One, the working with AI in a chat
00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:49.820
format is not that efficient for a teacher. A
00:14:49.820 --> 00:14:52.480
teacher might tell chat GPT or Claude or whatever
00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:55.580
other bot, I need X, Y, and Z. And the bot will
00:14:55.580 --> 00:14:57.690
create it. But it might need some revision. And
00:14:57.690 --> 00:14:59.889
then once it's the information's there, you still
00:14:59.889 --> 00:15:01.850
need to do some structuring, right? You need
00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:03.269
a place for your students to write the name and
00:15:03.269 --> 00:15:06.070
date. And maybe you're going to want some leveled
00:15:06.070 --> 00:15:07.730
readings for this exercise or whatever. Anyway,
00:15:08.029 --> 00:15:09.509
you're going to copy and paste that. So you're
00:15:09.509 --> 00:15:11.450
going to copy it, paste it over to Google Docs.
00:15:11.470 --> 00:15:13.570
Then you do all your formatting stuff. And it's
00:15:13.570 --> 00:15:16.419
like, that's. Worst be saving teachers time.
00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.299
I'm doing air quotes if people are just listening
00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:21.159
here So you're not really saving time if I'm
00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:23.159
gonna be going back and forth between two screens.
00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:25.340
I'm copying this I'm pasting this I'm formatting
00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:27.600
it because it was in markdown over here and I
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.019
needed in a different format over here and it's
00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:33.559
all a mess Edu8's whole focus now is instead
00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.679
of chatting in a chat based format You ask the
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.039
AI agent to create something it'll create that
00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.779
in an actual document It'll look like Microsoft
00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:45.179
Word or Google Docs. You have a toolbar You have
00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:47.840
the full document editor right there in the application,
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:51.019
but then we added elements to that toolbar So,
00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.120
you know on a standard Google Docs toolbar you
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:56.080
can do headings and font sizes and underlined
00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:58.919
but here you can insert multiple choice questions
00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:01.000
for that particular passage you just looked at
00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.460
or you can put a check for understanding as well
00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:05.679
or you could toggle in the name and date section
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.009
of your assignment, just things little and things
00:16:09.009 --> 00:16:12.350
complicated. We try to bring that into the document
00:16:12.350 --> 00:16:14.950
editing experience. So that's part of it. Just
00:16:14.950 --> 00:16:16.710
putting everything in that editor and making
00:16:16.710 --> 00:16:18.710
it feel like an application that teachers used
00:16:18.710 --> 00:16:20.590
before, because every teacher works in Google
00:16:20.590 --> 00:16:23.149
Docs or Microsoft Word. So we wanted to make
00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:26.370
it feel familiar and then add the AI pieces into
00:16:26.370 --> 00:16:29.129
that familiar application in a way that speeds
00:16:29.129 --> 00:16:32.110
up the time. speeds up the process of planning
00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:34.529
and creating materials. The second piece is getting
00:16:34.529 --> 00:16:37.429
insight into what the AI actually does. How do
00:16:37.429 --> 00:16:39.870
I know if this AI generated text is grade level
00:16:39.870 --> 00:16:42.149
appropriate? How do I know if it's actually aligned
00:16:42.149 --> 00:16:44.149
to an eighth grade reading level? What prior
00:16:44.149 --> 00:16:45.929
knowledge the student need to have to access
00:16:45.929 --> 00:16:47.750
this material? I'm not exactly sure of that.
00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:50.009
So we brought in these evaluator tools. We did
00:16:50.009 --> 00:16:52.730
this through partnership with a nonprofit organization
00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:55.549
called the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative. We collaborated
00:16:55.549 --> 00:16:58.070
with them. built out a set of evaluators, and
00:16:58.070 --> 00:17:00.190
now teachers are able to actually get transparent
00:17:00.190 --> 00:17:03.549
insights into the AI generated material. They'll
00:17:03.549 --> 00:17:06.650
do a informative text. They can run the grade
00:17:06.650 --> 00:17:09.750
level appropriateness evaluator. We do a quantitative
00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:12.170
qualitative text analysis. Essentially, we're
00:17:12.170 --> 00:17:16.190
looking at word counts, syllable counts, sentence
00:17:16.190 --> 00:17:18.849
complexity, length of sentences, number of sentences.
00:17:18.910 --> 00:17:21.009
We're looking at the structure of the text itself
00:17:21.009 --> 00:17:23.609
when ideas are presented, how they're prefaced,
00:17:23.609 --> 00:17:25.750
how they're followed up on. Then we look at the
00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:27.549
background knowledge constraints. What did students
00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:30.250
need to do prior to access this? Then we assign
00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:33.930
it two levels. Level one is your grade level
00:17:33.930 --> 00:17:35.890
where you could read this independently. So an
00:17:35.890 --> 00:17:37.890
eighth grader could access this text with no
00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:40.069
assistance. They'd be able to do it. And then
00:17:40.069 --> 00:17:43.019
you have a teachable with scaffolds. uh grade
00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:44.960
level so it's like you could do this with sixth
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.140
to seventh grade students but you would need
00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:49.859
the following five scaffolds it's a one click
00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:52.559
button it will apply those scaffolds to the document
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.339
so it might say you needed a glossary it'll create
00:17:55.339 --> 00:17:57.359
the glossary it might turn those short answer
00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.500
questions into multiple choice questions it might
00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:01.720
eliminate some of the distractors from the multiple
00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.700
choice questions it will add captions to images
00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:07.799
if you have it and stuff like that so Evaluation
00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.400
and transparency on one hand, ease of use on
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.720
the other. We bring these things together and
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:14.859
created version three of the application. So
00:18:14.859 --> 00:18:17.460
it doesn't sound like we simplified it, but we
00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:18.819
simplified it. I just wanted to give you guys
00:18:18.819 --> 00:18:21.079
some details on the evaluator side so you know
00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:22.799
how it works. And I'm not just talking out the
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.980
side of my neck. Yeah, no. And I think that's
00:18:24.980 --> 00:18:27.019
really important to point out, too, because we
00:18:27.019 --> 00:18:30.440
have a lot of different education, AI education
00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.259
tools that have come out in the last few years.
00:18:32.859 --> 00:18:37.519
And there's great things about many of them,
00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:41.160
but what you mentioned there, is that something
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.519
that you feel sets yourself apart as a company,
00:18:45.460 --> 00:18:49.359
where you do provide those evaluation tools,
00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:53.740
because a lot of that, sometimes when we do trainings
00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:56.660
with teachers, you know, you you help them understand
00:18:56.660 --> 00:18:59.720
how those outputs are working, making sure that
00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:01.980
they have ways of checking that output so that
00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:04.460
it's, you know, checking for biases, checking
00:19:04.460 --> 00:19:06.279
for accuracy, all those type of things. But it
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:10.799
feels very like maybe it could be a bit cumbersome,
00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:12.720
especially when it spits something out at you
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.559
that's really long, and you've got to put way
00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:19.119
more time into it than you may intended to. So
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.200
is so I The first question is, do you have do
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:24.339
you feel like that sets you apart a bit with
00:19:24.339 --> 00:19:26.119
those evaluation tools? And is there anything
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.819
else, too, that you would add as other features
00:19:28.819 --> 00:19:32.000
that set you apart from other education, AI platforms?
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:35.500
Yeah. I mean, you got directly to it doing an
00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:38.680
evaluation over the text yourself. Anyone, really?
00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:40.640
I'm not just saying just teachers, everybody
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:43.380
who's looking at an AI output. Unfortunately,
00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.460
it's all based on vibes. It's like, yeah, this
00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:47.940
looks right. It sounds right. I think that's
00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:50.380
correct. But now you're taking something that
00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:52.839
may have a bias or hallucination in it. And the
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.420
way that we're judging it is with our minds thinking
00:19:55.420 --> 00:19:57.460
very quickly. And when human minds think quickly,
00:19:57.880 --> 00:19:59.539
we have these things called heuristics, little
00:19:59.539 --> 00:20:01.460
shortcuts that we take to make judgments. And
00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:04.039
those introduce all kinds of problems, too. So
00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:07.519
that check is not the most reliable. And you
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:09.220
don't blame anyone for that. It's just human
00:20:09.220 --> 00:20:13.740
nature. We try to expend as little energy as
00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:18.279
possible. That's kind of by design. Yeah, put
00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:20.160
the evaluation tool in their hands so they can
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:22.759
actually get a reliable look into the material
00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:25.579
instead of having to rely on, I'm going to read
00:20:25.579 --> 00:20:28.720
this line by line or I'm going to just kind of
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:31.299
graze over it and take a look. Neither one of
00:20:31.299 --> 00:20:33.900
those is the most efficient. So it certainly
00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:35.900
sets us apart. I hope it doesn't set us apart
00:20:35.900 --> 00:20:37.799
for much longer. Like I hope everyone else does
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.519
this as well. Teachers deserve high quality instructional
00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:42.480
materials regardless of where they get it from.
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:44.299
They get it from us. Of course, I'm happy. I'm
00:20:44.299 --> 00:20:46.140
a business owner. But if they're getting it from
00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:48.019
somewhere else, I hope it's of quality because
00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:50.220
I'm a teacher as well. And I want teachers not
00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:53.640
to be using slop in the classroom. I want them
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:55.500
to use high quality instructional materials.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.400
That's the thing I'm most passionate about. Other
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.319
pieces that set us apart on EduAid is just to
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.680
that piece about high quality instructional materials.
00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:05.740
So we have a knowledge graph on the back end
00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:08.339
of our system that we use to design every single
00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:10.640
one of our prompts on EduAid. So the way this
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:15.579
knowledge graph works. is there's about 160 entries
00:21:15.579 --> 00:21:18.079
on the knowledge graph. And each one of those
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.119
entries is a research paper. You have a selection
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.200
criteria for the research paper. So it's like,
00:21:23.420 --> 00:21:26.039
are you using a controlled study? Or what are
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:28.519
the confounding variables? Can I actually trust
00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:30.180
the evidence that this paper's putting forth?
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.160
So once we verify and select the papers, we tag
00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:36.069
it. What area of instruction does this paper
00:21:36.069 --> 00:21:38.069
relate to? Does it relate to direct instruction?
00:21:38.190 --> 00:21:40.029
Does it relate to student practice? Does it relate
00:21:40.029 --> 00:21:43.589
to assessments? Does it relate to classroom management
00:21:43.589 --> 00:21:46.210
and culture? What does this paper relate to?
00:21:46.569 --> 00:21:49.089
Then once we tag the paper, we say, OK, based
00:21:49.089 --> 00:21:51.349
on that, which tools on EduAid does it relate
00:21:51.349 --> 00:21:53.390
to? Based on that tag. So it relates to all of
00:21:53.390 --> 00:21:55.750
our assessment tools. Great. Then we take that
00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:57.930
paper. We say, what are the instructional implications?
00:21:58.130 --> 00:21:59.970
What is it actually saying about teaching and
00:21:59.970 --> 00:22:03.319
learning? Oh, it's saying that students can use
00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:05.359
highlighting as a study technique, but only if
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.140
they turn those highlights in the flashcards
00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:09.099
because they need to review it over time. They
00:22:09.099 --> 00:22:11.539
need to practice it over time. Well, then we'll
00:22:11.539 --> 00:22:14.640
create a rubric based on that paper and we'll
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.740
grade our outputs. It's like, well, does this
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:19.079
lesson plan include time for student deliberate
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.220
practice? Does it explain how a teacher should
00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:25.359
do that practice session? Does it explain what
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.079
prior knowledge a student would need to access
00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.500
it? And it's like, if it doesn't pass that rubric,
00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:31.779
then we go back through and we revise the output.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.759
And then we do that for all of our tools. So
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:36.220
every single one of our tools is essentially
00:22:36.220 --> 00:22:41.279
as close as we can get with AI today. A tool
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.119
to provide the evidence -based instructional
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:45.960
material backbone for the class. Then we provide
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:48.539
the transparency tools on top of that. And the
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:50.619
idea is hopefully we're providing teachers with
00:22:50.619 --> 00:22:53.920
a pretty close approximation of a high quality
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:55.880
instructional material that will work for their
00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:58.019
grade level. work for their student population,
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:00.059
work for the reading levels they have in class.
00:23:00.339 --> 00:23:02.400
They can differentiate it with tools on the site
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:04.859
to make it easy to use. So it should fit every
00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:08.220
diverse population in their classroom. So then
00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.920
you kind of are covering most of the bases on
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:12.940
the teacher facing side. And I think that's what
00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:16.660
sets EduAid apart. A lot of tools might do high
00:23:16.660 --> 00:23:19.259
quality materials. A lot of tools might, well,
00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:21.460
not many tools at all right now are doing evaluation,
00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:24.029
but they might do that as well. It's how we bring
00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:26.049
these things together that really changes the
00:23:26.049 --> 00:23:27.769
game. It's subtle stuff. I mean, because at the
00:23:27.769 --> 00:23:29.750
end of the day, everybody's using ChatGPT or
00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:32.710
Claude at the backbone of a generation, right?
00:23:33.250 --> 00:23:36.690
Brisk, Magic School, School AI, Diffit, Eduade,
00:23:37.049 --> 00:23:40.589
Curipod, all of us, we're all reliant on ChatGPT,
00:23:40.829 --> 00:23:45.609
Claude, Gemini, or the Llama models. We're all
00:23:45.609 --> 00:23:47.869
using the foundation models. No one's a team
00:23:47.869 --> 00:23:50.609
of AI scientists making education -specific AI
00:23:50.609 --> 00:23:52.599
models. If someone's telling you that, they're
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:54.400
blowing smoke, and you should be skeptical as
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.900
a as a tech procurer for your school, for sure.
00:23:57.539 --> 00:23:59.599
Really, at the end of the day, for me, it's like
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:01.700
strip away all the technology, just strip it
00:24:01.700 --> 00:24:03.079
all the way. Don't even think about the technology
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:05.940
for a second. Look at that tool and say, you
00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:08.819
know, how what problem is this actually solving
00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:11.539
for me in the classroom? What's its theory of
00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:13.180
learning? Like, how does it actually relate to
00:24:13.180 --> 00:24:15.559
how students learn? And if it can't? cross the
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:17.799
bars on those two things, regardless of how flashy
00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:19.420
the tech is, it's going to fail in your classroom.
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:21.900
Because one, it's not going to support how students
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:24.259
actually learn. And two, it's not solving a real
00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:26.539
problem for you in the classroom. So sorry, I
00:24:26.539 --> 00:24:28.500
went off on a tangent there. But I think that's
00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:31.019
probably something with AI, it's all like this
00:24:31.019 --> 00:24:32.579
smoke and mirrors stuff. Like none of the companies
00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:34.980
want you to know that they're just an API. I
00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:36.559
don't want to say just a chat wrapper, because
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:37.980
there's ways in which you could prompt an AI
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:39.799
and get terrible responses. There's ways where
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:41.900
you can open it up, allow teachers to create
00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:44.220
hundreds of different resources. And who knows
00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:46.140
what the hallucination rate will be because you're
00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:48.140
stretching it beyond the AI's knowledge set,
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:50.740
you're stretching it beyond what the AI can reasonably
00:24:50.740 --> 00:24:52.759
do under constraints. And it's like when tools
00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:54.599
do that, then you're just muddying the water
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:58.609
for everyone. else. Okay, so Thomas since you're
00:24:58.609 --> 00:25:01.380
we're kind of on that that. discussion here of
00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:03.880
you know being tool first or being pedagogy first
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:05.740
and I think you described it perfectly here when
00:25:05.740 --> 00:25:08.480
you say you can really tell if you have something
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.559
that's good and high quality if you strip away
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:14.799
any of the tech that's involved and focus on
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:17.440
you know the pedagogy part you know is it solving
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.420
a problem that I have in the classroom is it
00:25:19.420 --> 00:25:22.319
something that's going to increase student learning
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.019
or is it something that's going to improve instruction
00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:28.230
you know like Um, why is it so important? Do
00:25:28.230 --> 00:25:30.470
you think let's just go on that tangent then
00:25:30.470 --> 00:25:33.589
a little bit more about why is the pedagogy first
00:25:33.589 --> 00:25:36.750
so important? Yeah, I mean that lesson was beaten
00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:39.329
in my head by my graduate school advisor, uh,
00:25:39.369 --> 00:25:42.690
dr. Jim diamond He has a great educational technology
00:25:42.690 --> 00:25:44.890
program and and that's really a lesson they beat
00:25:44.890 --> 00:25:47.369
in your head, which is Strip away the technology
00:25:47.369 --> 00:25:50.269
first ask the first principal's questions What
00:25:50.269 --> 00:25:52.549
problems it's solving and what kind of pedagogy
00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:55.089
pedagogy is it putting forth? What kind of theory
00:25:55.089 --> 00:25:57.440
of mind? And you have to be able to answer those
00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:59.200
questions. With some tools, it's not entirely
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:02.519
clear what either one of those answers would
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:05.279
be. Sometimes it feels like solutionism, where
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.059
you have a piece of technology, but it's not
00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:09.720
really solving a problem. It's just kind of cool,
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:12.480
maybe, more frustrating if you have to learn
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.690
how to use it. And then the other piece is No
00:26:15.690 --> 00:26:17.569
matter what tool you use in the classroom, they
00:26:17.569 --> 00:26:20.250
all have a theory of how learning works. It's
00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:23.150
either explicit, like their creators actually
00:26:23.150 --> 00:26:26.349
think about this question and design a very specific
00:26:26.349 --> 00:26:28.529
theory of teaching and learning into the tool.
00:26:28.769 --> 00:26:32.049
It's embedded. Or they don't think about it and
00:26:32.049 --> 00:26:34.609
they create the tool, but one comes forth anyway,
00:26:34.630 --> 00:26:36.569
because it's interacting with human minds and
00:26:36.569 --> 00:26:38.049
it's interacting with the teaching and learning
00:26:38.049 --> 00:26:40.670
process. So it will have an effect. Let me give
00:26:40.670 --> 00:26:43.849
you some examples, right? Look at something like
00:26:43.849 --> 00:26:47.000
Kahoot! Great thing, I used it in the classroom
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:48.960
all the time. Most teachers have at one point
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:52.099
or another. Strip away all the technology. Ultimately,
00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:56.819
what is Kahoot all about? It's just like a trivia
00:26:56.819 --> 00:26:59.359
review thing, dude. Did you remember some certain
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:02.960
fact from the lesson you had? Certainly. So it's
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:05.920
a kind of formative assessment. Teacher can write
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:08.279
a question, get some answers. You do it live
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.039
with the class. I could see roughly where my
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.440
whole class falls. what percentage of my students
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:15.579
don't know this thing versus what percentage
00:27:15.579 --> 00:27:18.720
do. Okay, then like what's the theory of learning
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:22.700
there? It's like what is that tool prioritizing?
00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:24.759
It's not like constructivist learning. It's not
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:26.559
students going out and doing discovery -based
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:29.380
learning. It's much more of a recall -based thing
00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:31.859
or a retrieval -based thing if the questions
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:35.069
are well structured. This is fine. But if a teacher
00:27:35.069 --> 00:27:37.609
becomes reliant on this and every day is a cahoot,
00:27:37.710 --> 00:27:39.950
we're going to do a cahoot for the warm up, I'm
00:27:39.950 --> 00:27:41.670
going to check in with you with a cahoot, we'll
00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:43.549
do a cahoot at the end of class. It's like that
00:27:43.549 --> 00:27:45.309
whole thing's going to wear off because it's
00:27:45.309 --> 00:27:47.849
only one part of what a teacher actually does.
00:27:48.069 --> 00:27:50.809
It's not all just assessment recall in a game
00:27:50.809 --> 00:27:52.549
-based environment. You have to do more than
00:27:52.549 --> 00:27:56.150
just that one thing. But if a teacher grows very
00:27:56.150 --> 00:27:58.650
fond of a tool, comfortable with a tool, it has
00:27:58.650 --> 00:28:01.450
student engagement or a student's motivated to
00:28:01.450 --> 00:28:05.579
get engaged with it and at the expense of, say,
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:07.859
exploring other options, then it can become kind
00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:09.759
of stale, right? I might just be doing this for
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.180
the wrong reasons. Because all of my students
00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:13.859
are at least are in their seats and not running
00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:16.180
around the classroom like hooligans while we're
00:28:16.180 --> 00:28:18.579
doing this, right? It's actually a controlled
00:28:18.579 --> 00:28:20.539
environment. I knew far too many teachers who
00:28:20.539 --> 00:28:22.279
that was the thing. Like that's how they decided
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:24.859
which ed tech tool to use. I'm going to do a
00:28:24.859 --> 00:28:27.099
book it because look, it keeps my kids at the
00:28:27.099 --> 00:28:30.920
laptops. And at least they're not on their phones
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:34.910
or saying something rude to someone else or,
00:28:34.910 --> 00:28:36.490
you know, distracting other kids or something
00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:38.210
like this. It's like, well, those are some of
00:28:38.210 --> 00:28:41.430
the wrong, the wrong reasons, right? Like it
00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:43.849
seems more, it's occupying their time rather
00:28:43.849 --> 00:28:46.930
than fully engaging them. Exactly. So if a tool
00:28:46.930 --> 00:28:49.210
is really good at occupying the time and has
00:28:49.210 --> 00:28:51.809
no solid theory of learning or no solid pedagogy
00:28:51.809 --> 00:28:54.869
behind it, but can occupy, occupy time, occupy
00:28:54.869 --> 00:28:58.809
the students attention, get them engaged. It's
00:28:58.809 --> 00:29:01.319
kind of hollow. It might actually hurt learning
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:03.900
gains over time, right? It's just a distraction
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.759
that you use to fill the class, fill time in
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.160
your classroom. I worry that if you're not paying
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:11.960
attention to the pedagogy of the tool, if you're
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:13.940
not paying attention to how it's going to affect
00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:16.579
teaching and learning. Some teachers, I'm gonna
00:29:16.579 --> 00:29:18.500
say especially new teachers. I mean, I've been
00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:20.259
in that boat trying to figure out classroom management
00:29:20.259 --> 00:29:23.740
my first couple of years teaching. Maybe those
00:29:23.740 --> 00:29:27.089
veteran teachers who have lost. the spark. I
00:29:27.089 --> 00:29:28.849
mean, I've seen that happen, too. You get burned
00:29:28.849 --> 00:29:31.710
out. You've been in the career for 17 years.
00:29:32.069 --> 00:29:34.509
Everything's changing around you. But at the
00:29:34.509 --> 00:29:36.309
same time, nothing's really changing, too, right?
00:29:36.369 --> 00:29:40.210
I get that feeling. And then there's like, I
00:29:40.210 --> 00:29:43.849
need kind of coast type of thing. Then you can
00:29:43.849 --> 00:29:46.809
see how some of these tools that are just kind
00:29:46.809 --> 00:29:50.710
of hollow, engaging and only engaging, seep in
00:29:50.710 --> 00:29:53.069
to classrooms. You see a lot more game based
00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:55.430
engagement in classrooms today than you did.
00:29:56.250 --> 00:29:59.369
10, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. I forget how
00:29:59.369 --> 00:30:01.990
fast time flies. I'm like, oh, 10 years ago,
00:30:02.009 --> 00:30:04.430
that's already 2016, geez. Okay, so yeah, we
00:30:04.430 --> 00:30:09.210
got to go back 20 years to 2006. I'm not sure
00:30:09.210 --> 00:30:12.130
I 100 % answered your question. I threw out some
00:30:12.130 --> 00:30:14.309
examples and kind of pointed to that as a trend.
00:30:14.390 --> 00:30:16.410
So if I was to like summarize what all of this
00:30:16.410 --> 00:30:19.619
means. You have to design with the pedagogy in
00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:22.180
mind first, because the tool is just that. It's
00:30:22.180 --> 00:30:24.500
a tool. It's something you're going to use to
00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:26.700
assist in the act of teaching and learning. And
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:28.740
if the tool does not actually understand teaching
00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:30.700
and learning, then it's not really going to assist
00:30:30.700 --> 00:30:31.740
with teaching and learning. It's something you're
00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:35.019
kind of putting on top of that process. Maybe
00:30:35.019 --> 00:30:37.359
to get student engagement. maybe for motivation.
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:39.579
Maybe it does one thing really well, which is
00:30:39.579 --> 00:30:42.059
assessment. You have to understand why that tool
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:44.440
is going to work in that particular moment before
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:46.460
you use it, right? If you don't know why you're
00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:47.960
using the tool, you're just using it because
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:50.059
the district has a subscription and everyone
00:30:50.059 --> 00:30:52.470
else uses it. you're going to run astray. So
00:30:52.470 --> 00:30:54.809
you need to have a firm understanding of, oh,
00:30:54.809 --> 00:30:57.230
I'm going to use this for this formative assessment
00:30:57.230 --> 00:30:58.990
because I need to know whether or not students
00:30:58.990 --> 00:31:00.930
understand this concept because I'm going to
00:31:00.930 --> 00:31:03.089
do something in class tomorrow that's going to
00:31:03.089 --> 00:31:04.690
build on that concept. And if they don't know
00:31:04.690 --> 00:31:06.670
it, I got to go back and reteach it because they're
00:31:06.670 --> 00:31:08.329
not going to be able to do tomorrow's lesson
00:31:08.329 --> 00:31:10.349
unless they've mastered it. It's like, well,
00:31:10.349 --> 00:31:12.670
now I know why I'm doing the formative assessment
00:31:12.670 --> 00:31:15.230
here. And I know Kahoot might be the good tool
00:31:15.230 --> 00:31:17.710
to use for it because it's engaging, but it also
00:31:17.710 --> 00:31:21.519
does the assessment piece. asking those questions,
00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.200
you might run run aground. So it kind of leads
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.279
me to this idea here, like, and I thought some
00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:30.859
of this was kind of like Barry, but I keep seeing
00:31:30.859 --> 00:31:34.240
articles about it popping back up in my feeds,
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.319
and I'm like, LinkedIn and stuff like that. But
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.380
it's, it's this idea, AI is going to take all
00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:42.619
of our jobs away. And I thought that was kind
00:31:42.619 --> 00:31:45.019
of like, No, no, that's not really. And then,
00:31:45.019 --> 00:31:46.740
you know, it's going to be like, those people
00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:48.680
that don't have jobs will know how to use AI
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:53.680
as part of their job. And I'm reading some articles
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:59.000
then recently like Spotify is laying off 17 %
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:02.640
of their staff because according to one article
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:06.539
I read that their software engineers haven't
00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:10.440
done any real coding since like December or October,
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.779
whatever that month was. I don't have it in front
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:15.259
of me anymore, but I'm hearing stories like that.
00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:18.480
And it makes me think here again that there are
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:21.930
these avenues, these career paths out there that
00:32:21.930 --> 00:32:25.750
AI can replace more easily than others. But then
00:32:25.750 --> 00:32:28.349
I come back to this idea in education here. And
00:32:28.349 --> 00:32:31.190
I think because of the things that I'm hearing
00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:35.829
you say, that it is still, I think, essential
00:32:35.829 --> 00:32:39.769
that a student has a high quality teacher and
00:32:39.769 --> 00:32:42.250
that high quality teacher is going to be the
00:32:42.250 --> 00:32:44.910
thing that's going to make their learning the
00:32:44.910 --> 00:32:47.490
greatest, that high quality teacher is most essential
00:32:47.490 --> 00:32:49.630
for student learning. In fact, that's one of
00:32:49.630 --> 00:32:53.750
the maxims when I go out and I present to groups
00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:57.309
of teachers that I try to stress. But, you know,
00:32:57.589 --> 00:33:00.589
like, so along with that, though, I think teachers
00:33:00.589 --> 00:33:04.230
also need to understand AI, and we've been talking
00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:07.670
about that. And I really appreciate your focus
00:33:07.670 --> 00:33:11.410
on the evaluation piece of that. recognizing
00:33:11.410 --> 00:33:15.349
whether you have high quality and using the quantitative
00:33:15.349 --> 00:33:19.410
and qualitative measures as part of that to identify
00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:22.130
those things that are high quality teaching practices
00:33:22.130 --> 00:33:25.569
that I think can benefit both new teachers and
00:33:25.569 --> 00:33:27.549
teachers that have been in that field for quite
00:33:27.549 --> 00:33:30.269
some time. But I think I'm kind of leaning now
00:33:30.269 --> 00:33:34.430
towards the question here. How does or how can
00:33:34.430 --> 00:33:40.069
teachers responsibly use AI without giving up
00:33:41.130 --> 00:33:44.829
their expertise and their human centered approach
00:33:44.829 --> 00:33:48.150
to learning, building those relationships with
00:33:48.150 --> 00:33:51.769
their students. That's a loaded question. First
00:33:51.769 --> 00:33:55.049
things first, if you're scrolling around online
00:33:55.049 --> 00:33:58.109
and you see anybody say that AI is going to take
00:33:58.109 --> 00:34:01.349
a bunch of jobs in the field of education, that
00:34:01.349 --> 00:34:03.230
tells me two things. One, they don't really understand
00:34:03.230 --> 00:34:05.029
AI and they don't really understand education,
00:34:05.250 --> 00:34:08.349
which sounds like a flippant answer, but once
00:34:08.349 --> 00:34:11.440
you start to dive into the technology and the
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:13.940
practices of a teacher, it's not so flippant.
00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:15.539
It just sounds like, oh, he's just stating a
00:34:15.539 --> 00:34:18.519
fact of reality, which is you look at a lot of
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:20.219
different practices that a teacher engages into
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:23.579
the AI. It's still well beyond the reach of an
00:34:23.579 --> 00:34:27.000
AI system. So a large language model at base
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.019
is running a relatively shallow computation over
00:34:30.019 --> 00:34:32.219
a vast amount of data, which essentially takes
00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:35.880
your input, tokenizes it into words or word parts,
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.960
and then makes a predictive analysis of which
00:34:39.150 --> 00:34:43.550
words or word parts will follow that input. And
00:34:43.550 --> 00:34:45.170
it's quite effective. It looks like thinking,
00:34:45.329 --> 00:34:47.070
right? It does a great job at this computation.
00:34:47.690 --> 00:34:49.929
But the problem you start to run into is let's
00:34:49.929 --> 00:34:53.900
go early elementary, early ed. It can't do phonics
00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:56.340
instruction. It can't do phonetic spellings of
00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:59.179
text. It struggles to craft reasonable decodables.
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:03.320
It can create verbose text for college students
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:06.119
and high school students. But can it accurately
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:08.920
convey information in very simple text for, say,
00:35:09.019 --> 00:35:10.780
a first grader or a second grader? It cannot
00:35:10.780 --> 00:35:13.400
do that very well. Then you move into the tutoring
00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:18.380
piece. Even if an AI was encoded to Ask great
00:35:18.380 --> 00:35:21.099
guiding questions, ask great leading questions,
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.659
have wonderful work examples on deck, be able
00:35:23.659 --> 00:35:26.239
to actually jump in when a student makes the
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:28.300
same mistake multiple times. Currently, it can't
00:35:28.300 --> 00:35:30.840
do that very well, but let's say it could. Even
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:34.820
then, I'm not sure an LLM will make such a great
00:35:34.820 --> 00:35:37.860
tutor that it will place teachers in the classroom.
00:35:38.420 --> 00:35:40.199
I just don't see that happening. One, you have
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.500
a lack of engagement and motivation to really
00:35:42.809 --> 00:35:45.190
dive in deep with that AI. If I'm a student,
00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:48.809
I'm going to put IDK and wait for swaps to get
00:35:48.809 --> 00:35:52.110
the answer. Or I might just do the base minimal
00:35:52.110 --> 00:35:54.349
amount of work. But I'm not really engaging deeply.
00:35:54.829 --> 00:35:57.050
When I'm questioning a student, I'll ask a question
00:35:57.050 --> 00:35:59.010
of the student. I'll get the answer. And then
00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:01.269
I'll dive in and ask a follow -up and ask a follow
00:36:01.269 --> 00:36:04.030
-up. And so as my class discussions would stretch
00:36:04.030 --> 00:36:06.449
out pretty long, because I'm asking so many follow
00:36:06.449 --> 00:36:08.389
-up, elaborative questions of the student who
00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:10.789
answered, because I'm trying to probe deep where
00:36:10.789 --> 00:36:12.570
that answer is coming from. What connections
00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:14.670
are they making? How are they thinking? And I
00:36:14.670 --> 00:36:17.429
really do not see an artificial intelligence,
00:36:17.550 --> 00:36:21.110
an LLM tutor doing that in the near to medium
00:36:21.110 --> 00:36:24.289
term. That's over the next 10 years. And even
00:36:24.289 --> 00:36:26.550
if they could, you're still going to have a human
00:36:26.550 --> 00:36:28.949
in the room who is going to engage with that
00:36:28.949 --> 00:36:31.230
student and debrief them after that one -on -one
00:36:31.230 --> 00:36:33.190
experience with that AI tutor. It just seems
00:36:33.190 --> 00:36:36.550
to be the direction is going for me. So how does
00:36:36.550 --> 00:36:41.760
a teacher actually use an AI system? Again, to
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.559
not undermine their autonomy, to actually assist
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:48.960
them in class. A couple of parts for that. One
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:52.019
would be, again, strip away all the technology
00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:54.360
and ask what problem am I trying to solve? So
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:56.099
as a teacher, I'm using a technology because
00:36:56.099 --> 00:36:58.039
I have a problem I want to solve. What is it?
00:36:58.440 --> 00:36:59.679
Once you understand what you're actually trying
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:03.179
to do, engage with the AI to that problem, right?
00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:05.599
Don't like veer off and try to reinvent the wheel
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:09.179
in the classroom. So it might be, my problem
00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:13.849
is... I am teaching an ELA course. We are looking
00:37:13.849 --> 00:37:17.130
at a text of some sort, let's say a novel or
00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:19.449
something, but I have students who are not at
00:37:19.449 --> 00:37:21.550
the level to be able to access the text of that
00:37:21.550 --> 00:37:24.809
novel. So I have a gap. I need to solve for this
00:37:24.809 --> 00:37:27.730
gap. So I need scaffolds. That might be where
00:37:27.730 --> 00:37:30.030
it's useful to engage with an AI because currently
00:37:30.030 --> 00:37:32.110
a teacher trying to solve that problem, it is
00:37:32.110 --> 00:37:34.869
a long drawn out process. I might ask my colleagues.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:36.820
which maybe you should still do that, right?
00:37:36.820 --> 00:37:38.400
How would you solve this problem? They're a great
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.380
resource. Maybe if you're lucky and you teach
00:37:41.380 --> 00:37:43.119
at a huge school district that does these co
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:44.739
-plannings, you might have a co -planning with
00:37:44.739 --> 00:37:46.380
everyone in your department. You're talking to
00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:48.079
all the other English teachers. Maybe that's
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:51.960
useful. Maybe not. My experience co -teachings,
00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:54.320
they varied from very useful to not so useful,
00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:57.119
depending on the group I was working with, but
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:59.840
not naming names here or schools for that matter.
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.719
Then you might go online, right? And at that
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:06.539
point, that's where I think we start to see the
00:38:06.539 --> 00:38:08.440
real benefits of AI, because a lot of teachers
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:10.460
are going online and they're pulling lesson ideas
00:38:10.460 --> 00:38:12.840
from Pinterest or lesson ideas from something
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:16.539
they saw on a Facebook community group, or they're
00:38:16.539 --> 00:38:20.119
going on teachers pay teachers or they're just
00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:23.179
kind of beg, borrow and steal as a teacher. That's
00:38:23.179 --> 00:38:26.099
kind of what you do. You try to find us reading.
00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:30.550
Yeah, I mean, that's Harry Wong, First Days of
00:38:30.550 --> 00:38:32.650
School, that's one book they assign in class.
00:38:32.829 --> 00:38:34.630
He says teachers steal everything, which you
00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:36.469
do. You see a great lesson online somewhere,
00:38:36.510 --> 00:38:39.989
like I'm going to do that. Or the National Archives,
00:38:40.090 --> 00:38:41.650
if you're a history teacher, has a great lesson
00:38:41.650 --> 00:38:43.730
on this historical document. So you pulled that.
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:46.460
And AI kind of can take all of that research
00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:49.079
time and compress it. You could run a deep research
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.440
agent on, you know, I need to do source analysis
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:54.900
of this document. How might I go about it? It
00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:56.739
might pull all of those resources for you. So
00:38:56.739 --> 00:38:58.880
it's a great research assistant. It's a great
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:01.159
instructional design assistant when you need
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:03.579
to do all that differentiation, right? I have
00:39:03.579 --> 00:39:05.719
varied reading levels in class, but I need all
00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:08.480
students to be able to access it. So you go about
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:11.119
doing all the personalization, the differentiation
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:13.960
of those learning materials. That to me are the
00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:16.280
two most compelling areas where a teacher might
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:19.139
use AI today. Assist with finding the materials,
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:21.079
assist with creating the materials, and assist
00:39:21.079 --> 00:39:24.039
with refining and differentiating them. Outside
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:27.079
of that, I don't really see it. I don't see the
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:29.559
we're going to put students in front of tutors.
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:34.000
Maybe there's something to be said for analyzing
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:37.619
assessment results and suggesting personalized
00:39:37.619 --> 00:39:45.369
pathways of instruction or different interventions
00:39:45.369 --> 00:39:48.369
you might make based on those results. But I
00:39:48.369 --> 00:39:49.809
don't know, I think a lot of people overblow
00:39:49.809 --> 00:39:52.409
the AI hype. And it will ultimately be to the
00:39:52.409 --> 00:39:54.130
detriment of those companies that are overblowing
00:39:54.130 --> 00:39:55.929
it, because everyone's going to get disillusioned
00:39:55.929 --> 00:39:57.710
when they realize that all those promises weren't
00:39:57.710 --> 00:40:00.949
really there. It's not saving them the 20 hours
00:40:00.949 --> 00:40:03.469
they were promised. It's not improving their
00:40:03.469 --> 00:40:05.630
students' test scores by X, Y and Z amount that
00:40:05.630 --> 00:40:07.829
they promised. So then they start to back off.
00:40:07.849 --> 00:40:09.789
But if you say, we're going to do some really
00:40:09.789 --> 00:40:11.250
simple things, and we're going to do it right,
00:40:11.349 --> 00:40:13.449
and we're going to be there for you, That's much
00:40:13.449 --> 00:40:17.650
more compelling. Part of what you said, I think
00:40:17.650 --> 00:40:19.969
I harken back to and I think this was from Ethan
00:40:19.969 --> 00:40:22.889
Malik, but go to AI when it can be better than
00:40:22.889 --> 00:40:25.210
the best human available to you at that time.
00:40:25.429 --> 00:40:28.030
Exactly. That seems to me like exactly what you're
00:40:28.030 --> 00:40:32.369
saying. I mean, a lot of times a teacher runs
00:40:32.369 --> 00:40:35.380
out of the best humans, right? We've asked everybody
00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:37.099
in the building, and they're still stumped. So
00:40:37.099 --> 00:40:38.420
you're like, well, where am I going to go now?
00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:40.559
And then you're doing research online. And that's
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.440
where the planning time gets burned, because
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:44.599
you're trying to find, well, what's the right
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:49.039
source for this lesson? For me, it was always,
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:51.300
I like to start a class with a political cartoon,
00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:53.460
a map, or an image related to the content that
00:40:53.460 --> 00:40:55.099
we'll be doing in class. And we'll do some sort
00:40:55.099 --> 00:40:57.679
of source analysis there. So during World War
00:40:57.679 --> 00:40:59.280
II, it might have been a map of the different
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:01.239
battles of the Pacific. We look at the tactics.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.880
We look at, what do you think was strategically
00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:06.539
important for this side or this side? What resources
00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:08.239
do you think were there, et cetera? So you do
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:10.980
that great source analysis. Finding those sources
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:14.690
was always. a pain and a half, because one, is
00:41:14.690 --> 00:41:16.349
this actually conveying the message that's going
00:41:16.349 --> 00:41:19.329
to relate to the learning objective for class?
00:41:19.730 --> 00:41:22.150
Is it actually going to elicit student responses?
00:41:22.409 --> 00:41:24.409
Is it over their head? Do they have the context
00:41:24.409 --> 00:41:27.309
for it? With an AI assistant, I might be able
00:41:27.309 --> 00:41:30.289
to, like on EduEd, you could do image generation,
00:41:30.349 --> 00:41:32.530
but we also included image search. So now you
00:41:32.530 --> 00:41:34.869
can actually search and find that image, inject
00:41:34.869 --> 00:41:37.510
it right into your source analysis assignment,
00:41:37.869 --> 00:41:39.789
give our AI assistant that image, and say, I
00:41:39.789 --> 00:41:43.440
need some deep source analysis questions to get
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:46.800
to X, Y, and Z theme or concept. And then you
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.639
can build off of that. So it's like taking what
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:53.840
teachers already do and then only adding AI where
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:55.880
it's like, this is where I got stumped when I
00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:57.760
was doing it, right? So I might have it. I might
00:41:57.760 --> 00:41:59.400
have my first two questions, but I need my next
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:00.920
two questions. And I'm not exactly sure what
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:03.480
to ask. That's when an AI might be most effective.
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:08.260
So we've covered a bit of the teacher side of
00:42:08.260 --> 00:42:11.519
things. And so I'm wondering too on the Student
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:15.059
side, you know, that's that's the. I think what
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:17.420
I've noticed is a lot of schools aren't there
00:42:17.420 --> 00:42:19.519
yet because they haven't even really fully covered
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:23.019
the teacher side, right? But if you're maybe
00:42:23.019 --> 00:42:27.400
just in schools that you've talked to or. In
00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:30.059
working with Edu aid, where do you see the students
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:32.920
fitting into all of this discussion? Like when
00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:37.179
should they start using it? What what would be
00:42:37.179 --> 00:42:42.579
the parameters? that they should use AI? Is it
00:42:42.579 --> 00:42:46.280
always going to be under direct teacher supervision
00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.019
in the classroom? Because we know of all these
00:42:50.019 --> 00:42:52.480
different issues that go on, some of which we
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:56.699
can't even really fully mitigate ourselves. So
00:42:56.699 --> 00:42:59.739
then what's the best way to start talking with
00:42:59.739 --> 00:43:03.579
students about it and to open the door to them
00:43:03.579 --> 00:43:07.719
in a guided way? you know, because in the I guess
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:09.300
the other piece of this is that we know that
00:43:09.300 --> 00:43:11.659
they're using it on their own anyway. Right.
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:14.639
It's not like they're just, you know, sitting
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:18.239
at home and not not using it. Right. Pretending
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:22.159
it doesn't exist. So what what would be your
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:25.599
opinion on student use and how we should go about
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.539
that? Yeah, I mean, this that's the tough question
00:43:28.539 --> 00:43:32.679
of the day, because, as you said, students, your
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:35.400
students might not be using AI. But the kids
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:37.500
are definitely using AI. And if you think about
00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:39.139
that, it's like, OK, they're using it at home,
00:43:39.139 --> 00:43:41.599
but they're not using it in school. So any time
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:44.719
there's schoolwork that will be going home, you
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.219
can definitely see that there's going to be some
00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:49.400
use of that AI that they're using at home on
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:51.519
that schoolwork. So maybe that means homework
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:54.460
is dead. Can you really trust students once they're
00:43:54.460 --> 00:43:57.260
outside of the school building to not use the
00:43:57.260 --> 00:44:00.699
tool that we most definitely would be using if,
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:03.059
let's say, your building admin comes to you and
00:44:03.059 --> 00:44:06.150
says, hey, We're doing some curriculum mapping
00:44:06.150 --> 00:44:08.809
and we need unit plans and we need all this paperwork
00:44:08.809 --> 00:44:10.389
or something. And you're like, I know this is
00:44:10.389 --> 00:44:12.469
gonna go in a filing cabinet. No one's really
00:44:12.469 --> 00:44:14.849
gonna read it. What are you gonna do? You're
00:44:14.849 --> 00:44:17.809
probably gonna use some form of an AI to help
00:44:17.809 --> 00:44:21.489
assist creating those papers. So that preface
00:44:21.489 --> 00:44:24.349
out of the way. Students might not be using it.
00:44:24.389 --> 00:44:27.170
The kids definitely are. When is it appropriate
00:44:27.170 --> 00:44:29.909
for the kids to use it? I mean, my honest answer
00:44:29.909 --> 00:44:33.199
is I'm really not sure yet. because there's papers
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.400
coming out saying, you know, there's an accumulation
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:38.780
of cognitive debt when using an AI assistant
00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:41.159
for, say, essay writing tasks. There's papers
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:44.719
coming out that are showing the negative effects
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:50.019
of AI usage on developing minds when they offload.
00:44:50.619 --> 00:44:53.039
So I'm worried about cognitive offloading. How
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:57.780
much of kind of the basic work and mechanics
00:44:57.780 --> 00:45:00.239
of, say, writing or of thinking about something
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:05.409
just kind of go out. the window. Some other pieces
00:45:05.409 --> 00:45:09.570
that kind of build off of this. I see a troubling
00:45:09.570 --> 00:45:13.889
trend where a lot of specifically curriculum
00:45:13.889 --> 00:45:16.050
writers, but I've also seen it among teachers
00:45:16.050 --> 00:45:18.349
and definitely among a lot of researchers on
00:45:18.349 --> 00:45:20.329
teaching and learning, which is, you know, kind
00:45:20.329 --> 00:45:25.110
of discounting facts, recall, declarative knowledge,
00:45:25.250 --> 00:45:27.710
like actually understanding concepts. We want
00:45:27.710 --> 00:45:29.889
students to think critically. And anytime I hear
00:45:29.889 --> 00:45:33.219
that, it just like It just like nails on a chalkboard
00:45:33.219 --> 00:45:35.599
to me because it's like, okay, what is critical
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:37.139
thinking then? Can you tell me what critical
00:45:37.139 --> 00:45:39.760
thinking is? And no one ever says that it's taking
00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:42.000
the accumulation of knowledge that you have,
00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:44.980
applying that to solve problems, and then doing
00:45:44.980 --> 00:45:48.260
those problems effectively. It's applying knowledge
00:45:48.260 --> 00:45:51.460
to novel situations effectively. Ultimately,
00:45:51.460 --> 00:45:53.739
that's what critical thinking is. I take my knowledge,
00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:56.659
I apply it to a situation, I solve that problem
00:45:56.659 --> 00:45:58.840
where it might not be apparent that I would use
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.030
that knowledge to solve that problem. and I do
00:46:01.030 --> 00:46:03.590
it efficiently and effectively. If you undermine
00:46:03.590 --> 00:46:06.809
a student's declarative knowledge about any subject,
00:46:07.170 --> 00:46:08.510
they're not going to be able to think critically
00:46:08.510 --> 00:46:10.710
about it. How is anyone going to think critically
00:46:10.710 --> 00:46:12.829
about government policy in the U .S. if you don't
00:46:12.829 --> 00:46:14.730
have a basic understanding of our constitution,
00:46:15.010 --> 00:46:17.869
of our laws, of our government structure? There's
00:46:17.869 --> 00:46:20.170
basic facts underneath every discipline that
00:46:20.170 --> 00:46:22.349
you need to know. And if teachers are using,
00:46:23.429 --> 00:46:27.380
or if rather students are using, AIs to... essentially
00:46:27.380 --> 00:46:30.019
offload that part, all that recall, all of that
00:46:30.019 --> 00:46:32.440
knowledge stuff. They're not going to have the
00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:34.400
substrate for the higher order thinking. They're
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.320
not going to have the necessary knowledge and
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.880
skills. So I do worry about introducing AI too
00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:42.840
early, but I also understand that regardless
00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:45.039
of when we as teachers or schools introduce AI,
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:47.400
students will use it on those devices that they
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:50.400
already have. So you have to balance the two.
00:46:50.780 --> 00:46:55.110
So this is why I see schools going like... I
00:46:55.110 --> 00:46:58.670
don't wanna say backward, but essentially taking
00:46:58.670 --> 00:47:02.789
on a role. I think about the more like churches
00:47:02.789 --> 00:47:05.750
than I do about like most other things. Like
00:47:05.750 --> 00:47:08.989
a church is a very, it's a tradition, it's a
00:47:08.989 --> 00:47:12.530
structure, it's based on a spiritual side of
00:47:12.530 --> 00:47:15.349
human nature that maybe isn't addressed by the
00:47:15.349 --> 00:47:18.090
modern world as well. So in this way, it's kind
00:47:18.090 --> 00:47:21.389
of ageless. I wonder if education will take a
00:47:21.389 --> 00:47:23.769
similar path, but for the brain instead of spirituality,
00:47:23.769 --> 00:47:25.269
it's like we're going to be working on paper
00:47:25.269 --> 00:47:27.150
and pencils, and we're going to be looking out
00:47:27.150 --> 00:47:28.849
of actual books, and we're going to be doing
00:47:28.849 --> 00:47:32.309
the arcane form of learning because that's the
00:47:32.309 --> 00:47:35.730
most closely related to some cognitive function
00:47:35.730 --> 00:47:38.170
in the human brain. Is reading and writing really
00:47:38.170 --> 00:47:41.190
an analog to thinking? Well, if it is, we shouldn't
00:47:41.190 --> 00:47:43.570
be typing on keyboards with AI assistance then.
00:47:44.070 --> 00:47:45.750
I see schools talking about blue books coming
00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:48.420
back and things like this. I'm not going to be
00:47:48.420 --> 00:47:50.340
one of those Luddites who say don't use technology
00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:52.820
at all, but I'm just not sure the tech is there
00:47:52.820 --> 00:47:54.920
where it would be beneficial for a student to
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:59.559
be using an AI for. I can't think of any area
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:01.679
where it would be useful for a student to use
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:07.280
an AI. I'm sure Sal Khan and a number of other
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:09.460
founders would tell me I'm wrong and say there's
00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:12.159
plenty of uses for students to have an AI. They'll
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:14.760
use personalized learning, which every tech company
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.900
has been using since like, 1996 because it's
00:48:17.900 --> 00:48:20.500
easy to hide behind as well. It doesn't work
00:48:20.500 --> 00:48:23.920
for everybody because you know the student Had
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:26.800
an extraordinary case and you know, they fell
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:28.559
outside the parameters It's like well a teacher
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:30.659
would adapt to these things or attempt to adapt
00:48:30.659 --> 00:48:33.239
to these things better than Technology can so
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:35.980
that's my pessimistic answer. I didn't really
00:48:35.980 --> 00:48:38.320
give you a great one I didn't say when you should
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:39.920
you I don't I'm not sure I answered the question
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:43.079
I kind of evaded it with a lot of words Does
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:45.400
it become part of the school's responsibility
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:50.139
to teach AI literacy safely, ethically, effectively,
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:52.840
you know, like we would, you know, because it's
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:55.260
not happening in other places, right? Same thing
00:48:55.260 --> 00:48:58.679
with like drug and alcohol, you know, why did
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.679
it become part of the schools to teach kids about
00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:05.679
the dangers of drugs and alcohol? Let me push
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:08.840
back on that though. I mean, have rates of drug
00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:11.760
and alcohol addiction actually fallen from that
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:14.440
intervention? No, probably not. No, I mean, opioid
00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:16.960
epidemic is still raging in the United States.
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:19.119
But would anything happen with AI usage too?
00:49:19.579 --> 00:49:22.679
I mean, do we we have some online literacy courses?
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.320
I see that schools about like social media and
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:28.460
bullying and things like that. But rates of teenage
00:49:28.460 --> 00:49:31.400
suicide onset by depression related to some sort
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:35.030
of online interaction is still Unconsciously
00:49:35.030 --> 00:49:38.809
high. I mean, I'm not sure if you make it like
00:49:38.809 --> 00:49:40.809
this pull -out thing someone comes into your
00:49:40.809 --> 00:49:43.750
class and talks about the dangers of drug addiction
00:49:43.750 --> 00:49:46.969
or whatever is Necessarily the most effective
00:49:46.969 --> 00:49:49.309
way right if you're going to do AI literacy if
00:49:49.309 --> 00:49:51.610
you're gonna do awareness around any social harm
00:49:51.610 --> 00:49:54.690
It needs to be embedded into the curriculum into
00:49:54.690 --> 00:49:57.949
the different subjects right into the daily work
00:49:57.949 --> 00:50:01.480
of the students So you might talk about? specific
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:04.119
examples of technological innovation in your
00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:05.980
history class and how that changed the way people
00:50:05.980 --> 00:50:08.860
think and then relate that to today. In an English
00:50:08.860 --> 00:50:10.679
class, you might be talking about the production
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:12.699
of a text, you might relate that to today. So
00:50:12.699 --> 00:50:15.179
a lot of this, unfortunately, like everything
00:50:15.179 --> 00:50:17.639
in education, falls onto the shoulders of the
00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:19.920
teachers to get creative and think about how
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:23.079
this thing in society today relates to the subject
00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:25.280
that you're teaching. And this is why teachers
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:29.219
are always like a... Thought about in political
00:50:29.219 --> 00:50:31.460
terms because they have to interpret a lot of
00:50:31.460 --> 00:50:33.940
what's happening in society For their students
00:50:33.940 --> 00:50:35.940
and relate it to the subject that the students
00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:38.159
are learning in that class. It's a difficult
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:41.280
job But I'm not sure it's it's going to be solved
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:44.280
by this is our AI literacy week at school It's
00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:45.860
like you're gonna have to do more than that It
00:50:45.860 --> 00:50:48.980
needs to be something deeply embedded and I'm
00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:51.599
not sure anyone's in a position to do AI literacy
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.920
very well yet I see a lot of the training programs
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:58.139
out there What they say is, you know Double -check,
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:02.039
there's bias. Don't use it for everything. OK.
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:06.519
Thanks. I'm still going to use it, though. It's
00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:09.460
embedded into my Snapchat. It's embedded into
00:51:09.460 --> 00:51:12.320
every single application I use. It's embedded
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.300
into new devices now. It's on their iPhone. So
00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:18.699
OK, we can tell students to proofread and double
00:51:18.699 --> 00:51:21.940
-check and look for bias. Can they actually identify
00:51:21.940 --> 00:51:23.920
bias? And even if they can, are they going to
00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:26.500
expend the cognitive effort it takes to look
00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:28.719
for bias when the whole point of using the tool
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:31.960
is to cognitively offload? I don't have great
00:51:31.960 --> 00:51:34.760
answers for you on that. I think I'm raising
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.820
more problems than I am putting forward answers.
00:51:38.340 --> 00:51:41.159
But they're worth considering. I mean, I just
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:43.179
hope these things don't get swept under the rug
00:51:43.179 --> 00:51:45.800
in the name of we're just doing our AI literacy
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:47.440
part. It's like, that's not enough. You got to
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:49.860
do more. Right, and I think one of the things
00:51:49.860 --> 00:51:53.179
too I just wanted to go back to is you mentioned
00:51:53.179 --> 00:51:57.519
background knowledge about subjects, and it seems
00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:00.940
like part of the issue that we have, particularly
00:52:00.940 --> 00:52:03.179
when it comes to what you mentioned with student
00:52:03.179 --> 00:52:06.760
use, is that if you don't have any background
00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:08.920
knowledge, the cognitive offloading is just going
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:11.860
to automatically happen because of the way that
00:52:11.860 --> 00:52:15.170
AI spits out answers. and gives you information
00:52:15.170 --> 00:52:17.650
without considering because it's not going to
00:52:17.650 --> 00:52:19.329
consider for you, whether you have the background
00:52:19.329 --> 00:52:21.969
knowledge, right? You have to have had that established.
00:52:21.969 --> 00:52:24.449
And that's probably one of the key distinctions
00:52:24.449 --> 00:52:27.389
between when we when we have teachers use it
00:52:27.389 --> 00:52:29.849
for certain things. We do it with the understanding
00:52:29.849 --> 00:52:32.309
that they've they've gone to college. We assume
00:52:32.309 --> 00:52:34.369
that they've got the pedagogical side of things
00:52:34.369 --> 00:52:36.909
figured out. And so then their their background
00:52:36.909 --> 00:52:39.650
knowledge of that and the content area helps
00:52:39.650 --> 00:52:42.429
inform how they might use AI. When we talk about
00:52:42.429 --> 00:52:46.409
students using it, that might not be there at
00:52:46.409 --> 00:52:48.050
all for whatever given. That's why they're in
00:52:48.050 --> 00:52:49.590
school. They gotta get that background knowledge,
00:52:49.710 --> 00:52:52.929
exactly. Yeah, yeah. So that just stuck out to
00:52:52.929 --> 00:52:54.710
me when you had mentioned that, and I think that's
00:52:54.710 --> 00:52:56.650
really important when we talk about student use,
00:52:56.730 --> 00:53:00.150
because we have to understand that that background
00:53:00.150 --> 00:53:02.969
knowledge might not be there, and they might
00:53:02.969 --> 00:53:04.989
just be getting answers automatically. Not that
00:53:04.989 --> 00:53:08.639
teachers can't as well on things, but. But the
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:10.820
point you're honing in on is that's the hopeful
00:53:10.820 --> 00:53:13.480
piece of it. Like you've identified the correct
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.739
cognitive function, which is students have to
00:53:16.739 --> 00:53:18.800
retrieve information from their memory. That's
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:20.800
retrieval practice, right? Not just recalling
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:22.219
something that's in their short term memory,
00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:24.780
but actually going back to long term memory storage,
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:26.880
retrieving a piece of information and applying
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:29.000
it. So that's retrieval practice. Then you want
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.300
to do that over time, which is distributed practice.
00:53:31.550 --> 00:53:34.670
If you just do something in one mass during one
00:53:34.670 --> 00:53:37.170
week and never do it again, that's why students
00:53:37.170 --> 00:53:39.449
struggle with statistics. You do it at the end
00:53:39.449 --> 00:53:42.110
of the year for a couple of weeks in math class,
00:53:42.110 --> 00:53:44.690
and then it's done. In my mind, statistics is
00:53:44.690 --> 00:53:46.590
one of the most important branches of math that
00:53:46.590 --> 00:53:48.090
students should be studying for everyday life,
00:53:48.150 --> 00:53:50.489
but that's another tangent for another time.
00:53:50.809 --> 00:53:52.769
The third piece is interleaving. I've got to
00:53:52.769 --> 00:53:55.309
bring in new pieces of information that I'm picking
00:53:55.309 --> 00:53:58.750
up and relate it to the old pieces. That is where
00:53:58.750 --> 00:54:00.530
an AI could be most effective for a student.
00:54:00.650 --> 00:54:03.329
And how do you orchestrate retrieval practice
00:54:03.329 --> 00:54:05.809
over time and interleave all those practice questions,
00:54:05.809 --> 00:54:08.030
right? If the whole point is we want deliberate
00:54:08.030 --> 00:54:10.469
practice, we want students to get as many reps
00:54:10.469 --> 00:54:13.690
as possible on this information. And AI being
00:54:13.690 --> 00:54:16.409
able to orchestrate that practice over time for
00:54:16.409 --> 00:54:17.969
the teachers. So where it's kind of running in
00:54:17.969 --> 00:54:19.530
the background, the students are doing their
00:54:19.530 --> 00:54:21.789
practice tests and doing the reviews, but it's
00:54:21.789 --> 00:54:24.389
not like a tutoring session. It's really just.
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:27.159
a bunch of different practice tests and assessments
00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:29.719
over time. Maybe it's creating flashcards based
00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:32.059
on student notes or things like this. That's
00:54:32.059 --> 00:54:34.719
where it is really interesting to me for student
00:54:34.719 --> 00:54:37.840
use. I'm not sure any tool is there yet. I'm
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:40.719
not sure what that actually looks like, how you
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:43.199
kind of mass the content to create the practice
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:45.440
questions and to actually structure it. Like
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:48.659
you would probably have to. There's some significant
00:54:48.659 --> 00:54:51.300
amount of fine tuning, really some very specific
00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:53.400
instructions and parameters for the AI to work
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:56.199
in. I'm not sure it's on a standard device like
00:54:56.199 --> 00:54:58.900
a laptop or a phone. It would have to be some
00:54:58.900 --> 00:55:01.000
other kind of thing. I don't even know what that
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:04.340
looks like either. But there are some hopeful
00:55:04.340 --> 00:55:06.340
points. It's like we know how learning works.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:10.440
So if we can create an AI system that engages
00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:13.380
with those processes well and helps orchestrate
00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:15.480
those processes so students can engage with them.
00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:19.139
through time effectively, then, then you're onto
00:55:19.139 --> 00:55:22.420
something. But not sure it's entirely there yet.
00:55:22.420 --> 00:55:24.360
You could also do the same thing for teachers.
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:27.239
If you can embed professional development into
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:30.079
the tools that they use, such that, you know,
00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:32.940
you go to use an assessment on EduAid and you
00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:35.340
get explained why it might actually work or where
00:55:35.340 --> 00:55:37.239
it might break down or what to look for, like
00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:39.619
you actually help a teacher along with giving
00:55:39.619 --> 00:55:41.500
them the tips and tricks, so to speak, as they
00:55:41.500 --> 00:55:43.699
go through the process, then it might be effective
00:55:43.699 --> 00:55:46.440
as well. There's a lot of great research going
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:48.599
on on this. There's some great companies and
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:50.880
a couple of great organizations based in some
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:52.880
schools of education that are actually looking
00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:55.139
at creating an AI assistant for, like, teacher
00:55:55.139 --> 00:55:57.400
professional development, where as you're working
00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:00.159
on the application itself, you're learning about
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.679
not just the application, but the practice that
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:05.280
the applications apply to. Those are two interesting
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:07.239
areas. So that might be the sliver of hope as
00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:10.019
we... we're nearing the the end and I've just
00:56:10.019 --> 00:56:12.159
been just constantly saying no this is awful
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:14.780
there's no great answers there's there's the
00:56:14.780 --> 00:56:18.219
few glimmers of hope I would put out yeah so
00:56:18.219 --> 00:56:22.360
is you know if you were in charge of the AI world
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:27.619
right what's the what's the future path look
00:56:27.619 --> 00:56:29.539
like you know an AI changes so fast so I don't
00:56:29.539 --> 00:56:31.179
want to say like 10 years down the road I just
00:56:31.179 --> 00:56:33.699
want to say like two to three years from now
00:56:34.449 --> 00:56:37.750
If you're in charge of AI systems for the entire
00:56:37.750 --> 00:56:41.510
universe, what's the ideal path we would all
00:56:41.510 --> 00:56:46.889
be going down? Oh, gosh. I wouldn't even know
00:56:46.889 --> 00:56:51.110
where to start. The cynical answer would be distribution,
00:56:51.170 --> 00:56:53.449
distribution, distribution. I need my AI system
00:56:53.449 --> 00:56:55.409
to be in front of everyone, so I need to create
00:56:55.409 --> 00:56:59.150
this application that has business uses, enterprise
00:56:59.150 --> 00:57:02.030
uses, as well as consumer uses. I'm not sure
00:57:02.030 --> 00:57:04.170
it's going to just be a standalone chat bot because
00:57:04.170 --> 00:57:06.690
everyone else is producing chat bots. Now, if
00:57:06.690 --> 00:57:09.869
I said I want to direct humanity towards best
00:57:09.869 --> 00:57:12.250
possible outcome for humanity and not my stockholders
00:57:12.250 --> 00:57:19.369
as Lord Commander of my AI company. That's a
00:57:19.369 --> 00:57:23.789
much tougher question to answer. I mean, clearly,
00:57:23.969 --> 00:57:27.309
I'm not I'm not qualified for the job. You see
00:57:27.309 --> 00:57:29.750
it being down down a path towards equity. Do
00:57:29.750 --> 00:57:34.260
you see it being a path? towards, you know, human
00:57:34.260 --> 00:57:37.079
centered approaches to things and not letting,
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:40.699
you know, the Terminator robots dominate all
00:57:40.699 --> 00:57:42.800
of our lives, you know, those sort of things.
00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:49.219
The problem with any new technology is that everybody
00:57:49.219 --> 00:57:52.059
who's living through that technological revolution
00:57:52.059 --> 00:57:54.079
will make a prediction about what it will do.
00:57:54.179 --> 00:57:56.820
And those are almost assuredly always wrong.
00:57:57.300 --> 00:58:01.000
Here's why I'm saying this. It's going to open
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:02.980
up things in ways that we can't even imagine
00:58:02.980 --> 00:58:07.019
simply by existing, right? The way that this
00:58:07.019 --> 00:58:12.639
system now takes, say code and enables people
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:17.320
to program in natural language can open up avenues
00:58:17.320 --> 00:58:20.340
for creativity that I don't think wherever before
00:58:20.340 --> 00:58:24.139
possible. So what we might see is now a teacher
00:58:24.139 --> 00:58:26.519
might not have to buy educational technology.
00:58:27.099 --> 00:58:29.469
They could log into their computer. They can
00:58:29.469 --> 00:58:32.489
log into Codex and they can spin up an EdTech
00:58:32.489 --> 00:58:34.909
application for personal use in their classroom
00:58:34.909 --> 00:58:37.429
without needing to pay any other third party
00:58:37.429 --> 00:58:40.650
money to do it. That would be the ultimate best
00:58:40.650 --> 00:58:44.130
path forward is goodbye software companies, goodbye
00:58:44.130 --> 00:58:46.889
software as a service, goodbye troublesome subscriptions
00:58:46.889 --> 00:58:49.849
where we don't own anything and pay everybody
00:58:49.849 --> 00:58:53.190
monthly rents to use their online device, right?
00:58:53.670 --> 00:58:55.969
Now you take back some form of ownership because
00:58:55.969 --> 00:58:57.650
you're able to create these things yourself.
00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:00.380
That's why you see a lot of software engineers
00:59:00.380 --> 00:59:02.679
perhaps getting laid off because really the killer
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:04.960
application of a large language model might be
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:08.579
its ability to code. If that's the case, students
00:59:08.579 --> 00:59:10.559
should probably still study coding because you
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:12.340
got to be able to troubleshoot and things go
00:59:12.340 --> 00:59:15.179
wrong and you need experience. I do worry about
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:19.280
the state of entry level programmers then because
00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:21.280
you need an entry level job to build up the skills
00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:24.559
to be able to do all of the debugging. If you're
00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:26.880
only hiring senior engineers to debug the AI,
00:59:27.059 --> 00:59:29.000
then you kind of have a pipeline breakdown there.
00:59:29.019 --> 00:59:32.719
So that's an issue. But the for the sake of a
00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:35.440
teacher, I think the proposition in, say, two
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:38.840
years of being able to spin up an application
00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:41.320
for your class that is going to live locally
00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:44.739
on your device is pretty appealing. Or for schools
00:59:44.739 --> 00:59:46.480
to take all that data they're sitting in from
00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:48.699
all those tests, from all those assessments that
00:59:48.699 --> 00:59:50.679
you get the year after you take the assessment.
00:59:50.739 --> 00:59:52.559
So you don't really have a great benchmark for
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:55.059
the students in your classes. I still don't understand
00:59:55.059 --> 00:59:57.460
the testing cycle in that way, but being able
00:59:57.460 --> 00:59:59.739
to, say, create some simple data dashboards to
00:59:59.739 --> 01:00:01.360
be able to understand and make sense of that
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:04.079
data and be able to actually plan on top of it
01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:07.500
is also powerful. I mean, these AI coding assistants
01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:09.360
are great at spinning up dashboards. You give
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:12.159
it access to your folder with the relevant data.
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:14.199
You say you want a dashboard to display it in
01:00:14.199 --> 01:00:16.280
X, Y, and Z ways. It can spin that up pretty
01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:18.760
quickly. Those are the most interesting use cases
01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:21.880
for administrators and for teachers in the short
01:00:21.880 --> 01:00:24.400
term. From there, I'm not sure how things change.
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:26.900
It could blow up a good portion of the world
01:00:26.900 --> 01:00:30.679
economy. It could show that the markets are giving
01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:34.360
very mixed signals. You're seeing some negative
01:00:34.360 --> 01:00:38.639
market actions by people saying, OK, AI is not
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:41.019
really delivering on what it said. And that's
01:00:41.019 --> 01:00:43.179
a problem. So that's where the bubble comes from.
01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:45.000
People talk about the AI bubble. And on the other
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:46.599
hand, you're seeing some market activity that
01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:49.639
suggests people are scared because of the AI's
01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:53.960
effect on the job market. It's affecting hiring
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:56.940
practices and it's affecting jobs, but it's not
01:00:56.940 --> 01:00:58.880
having an effect So the bubbles going to it's
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:01.460
like we have two conflicting ideas if it's having
01:01:01.460 --> 01:01:04.239
such a direct impact on the market on hiring
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:08.000
practices on talent Then why are we? Underestimating
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.960
it on the one side of the market saying it's
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:11.639
not delivering on promises and on the other side.
01:01:11.719 --> 01:01:13.820
We're saying it's over delivering We're not hiring
01:01:13.820 --> 01:01:15.699
we're having to lay people off and look at all
01:01:15.699 --> 01:01:17.559
these new cost savings and it's very disruptive
01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:21.679
So that's why I'm not comfortable answering your
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:25.019
question entirely other than saying You ever
01:01:25.019 --> 01:01:27.380
see that Monty Python skit? It was like the the
01:01:27.380 --> 01:01:29.800
boring prophet and he's like someone will have
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:32.980
an idea that they are unhappy tomorrow and it's
01:01:32.980 --> 01:01:36.159
like No one cares about the boring prophet, but
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:38.639
things will change they might change for good
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:42.400
and they will also change Poorly depends on who
01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:46.190
you are and what your job is that day I really
01:01:46.190 --> 01:01:48.429
like your approach. I really like your approach
01:01:48.429 --> 01:01:51.849
to that question. And I think that's a pretty
01:01:51.849 --> 01:01:54.170
insightful answers. And I think we just do need
01:01:54.170 --> 01:01:55.809
to let it play out and see where it's going to
01:01:55.809 --> 01:01:58.050
go. That's contrary to what you hear. Everyone
01:01:58.050 --> 01:02:00.010
says, oh, you have to move fast or you're going
01:02:00.010 --> 01:02:02.829
to be in the path. No, time will keep flowing.
01:02:02.969 --> 01:02:04.349
You're not going to lose out. You're not going
01:02:04.349 --> 01:02:07.429
to miss anything. I mean, if someone would have
01:02:07.429 --> 01:02:12.050
told you 20 years ago now, hey, maybe hold off.
01:02:12.190 --> 01:02:14.630
on making that Facebook account for your 13 -year
01:02:14.630 --> 01:02:17.130
-old. No one's ever going to say that was terrible
01:02:17.130 --> 01:02:18.530
advice these days. They're going to say, oh,
01:02:18.530 --> 01:02:21.190
that would have been quite prudent, pretty smart,
01:02:21.230 --> 01:02:23.710
right? I hated that my parents didn't let me
01:02:23.710 --> 01:02:25.769
have a cell phone until I was a senior in high
01:02:25.769 --> 01:02:27.489
school. I felt like a loser. I'm like, oh my
01:02:27.489 --> 01:02:30.150
gosh, a girl I was talking to had to text my
01:02:30.150 --> 01:02:32.389
dad once. Like, that was embarrassing, right?
01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:35.050
Awful. But in hindsight, now I'm like, you know
01:02:35.050 --> 01:02:37.409
what? I can actually set my phone in another
01:02:37.409 --> 01:02:39.590
room without having a nervous breakdown. Maybe
01:02:39.590 --> 01:02:42.230
it was a good thing. So I'm not sure. pausing
01:02:42.230 --> 01:02:45.130
and not using a technology is going to lead you
01:02:45.130 --> 01:02:47.150
in the past, right? They keep saying these things
01:02:47.150 --> 01:02:49.210
are so intuitive, anyone can pick them up anyway.
01:02:49.269 --> 01:02:54.150
So I don't know what the rush is. Yeah, I think
01:02:54.150 --> 01:02:57.590
that's a good kind of segue to lead us into kind
01:02:57.590 --> 01:02:59.510
of our last little segment that we have here,
01:02:59.750 --> 01:03:04.070
which is a lightning round. David and I will
01:03:04.070 --> 01:03:07.530
just kind of alternate asking some rapid fire
01:03:07.530 --> 01:03:10.409
questions. You know you can respond with one
01:03:10.409 --> 01:03:12.809
word or you know a paragraph or sentence, whatever
01:03:12.809 --> 01:03:15.210
you think it needs. I need the limits. I tend
01:03:15.210 --> 01:03:22.289
to ramble so. No, never noticed that. Yeah, so
01:03:22.289 --> 01:03:25.110
we'll have a few and then we'll get into a this
01:03:25.110 --> 01:03:27.889
or that kind of thing and then wrap up here.
01:03:27.909 --> 01:03:29.289
So David, you want to kick us off with the first
01:03:29.289 --> 01:03:32.590
one? Yeah, so what do you miss most about being
01:03:32.590 --> 01:03:37.030
in the classroom? Actually being able to connect
01:03:37.030 --> 01:03:40.179
with humans. on a personal level and not through
01:03:40.179 --> 01:03:45.260
my computer. Like actually going out and working
01:03:45.260 --> 01:03:49.420
with students, being able to pick up on it's
01:03:49.420 --> 01:03:50.920
much more than just the words coming out of our
01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:52.900
mouth. It's facial expressions. It's the it's
01:03:52.900 --> 01:03:54.880
your body language. It's like a student comes
01:03:54.880 --> 01:03:57.119
in slumping and clearly maybe something was going
01:03:57.119 --> 01:03:58.940
on and then you have a great lesson and they
01:03:58.940 --> 01:04:00.820
come out of the class energetic and they pick
01:04:00.820 --> 01:04:02.710
up on something. It's like, OK. You get a bit
01:04:02.710 --> 01:04:04.909
of energy from that, too, because you saw that
01:04:04.909 --> 01:04:06.889
kid's day change like right in front of your
01:04:06.889 --> 01:04:09.369
face or someone's going through some sort of
01:04:09.369 --> 01:04:11.269
interpersonal problem with other students. And
01:04:11.269 --> 01:04:14.170
you work that out. You do conversation and kind
01:04:14.170 --> 01:04:16.329
of reconcile that situation. You get some energy
01:04:16.329 --> 01:04:17.769
out of that, too, because it's like, OK, I helped
01:04:17.769 --> 01:04:20.849
this this kid figure out a personal situation
01:04:20.849 --> 01:04:22.969
that they didn't have the social skills to navigate
01:04:22.969 --> 01:04:24.869
before. But now they're figuring out how to work
01:04:24.869 --> 01:04:27.599
their way through it. I mean. Teaching is very
01:04:27.599 --> 01:04:29.960
rewarding. This is rewarding because in theory
01:04:29.960 --> 01:04:31.719
I'm helping hundreds of thousands of teachers,
01:04:31.739 --> 01:04:34.199
but when you get to that scale I don't actually
01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:36.199
see those teachers I don't work with those teachers
01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:38.300
one -on -one like I used to and I miss a lot
01:04:38.300 --> 01:04:41.639
of that um Human one -on -one interaction. I'm
01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:45.179
just like stuck in the cave over here Rambling
01:04:45.179 --> 01:04:49.920
my computer screen Yeah, and on the opposite
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:52.059
side, what are you grateful for not having to
01:04:52.059 --> 01:04:56.519
do anymore as a classroom teacher I mean As a
01:04:56.519 --> 01:05:00.360
classroom teacher, I was always thinking like
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:02.719
big about the system and about the state of public
01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:05.960
education and research on teaching and learning,
01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:08.260
but you never really have a lot of time to do
01:05:08.260 --> 01:05:11.179
that. That's like sitting there, you know, scarfing
01:05:11.179 --> 01:05:13.420
down lunch, just kind of daydreaming about there
01:05:13.420 --> 01:05:16.159
could be a better way. And it's like, yeah, maybe
01:05:16.159 --> 01:05:18.579
pal, but what are you going to do about it? Now
01:05:18.579 --> 01:05:20.340
I actually get to think about those questions
01:05:20.340 --> 01:05:24.159
seriously. I get to think about. the state of
01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:27.559
education and about technology and what interesting
01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:29.739
things happen when these things collide and actually
01:05:29.739 --> 01:05:33.360
have a hand in perhaps shaping folks interactions
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:36.340
with a new technology. Hopefully if I say things
01:05:36.340 --> 01:05:39.019
loud enough and maybe intimidate some of my competitors,
01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:41.579
change the state of this educational technology
01:05:41.579 --> 01:05:43.440
for the better, right? If they're like, oh, he's
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:46.679
doing evaluations and that's getting some views,
01:05:46.739 --> 01:05:48.579
we better do evaluations ourselves. It's like,
01:05:48.699 --> 01:05:51.940
well then, you know. the tide rises all boats
01:05:51.940 --> 01:05:54.360
or something like that, right? That's the idea.
01:05:54.820 --> 01:05:58.239
So even if the company itself long term isn't
01:05:58.239 --> 01:06:02.000
like a wild success, if I can in some way influence
01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:04.519
the development of educational technology writ
01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:07.059
large and help all teachers, then I did some
01:06:07.059 --> 01:06:09.579
good with my day. How about if you were to give
01:06:09.579 --> 01:06:12.960
a Ted talk and it can't be about education or
01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:15.460
technology, what would the topic of that Ted
01:06:15.460 --> 01:06:17.760
talk be? I mean, I think I already have. I've
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:20.179
been giving a TED talk all morning. Sorry about
01:06:20.179 --> 01:06:22.000
that. That's education and technology. We got
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:24.280
to go outside those places. Look, I'm looking
01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:26.539
at my bookshelf right now, like seeing what I
01:06:26.539 --> 01:06:31.500
read about a lot lately. I mean, outside of education
01:06:31.500 --> 01:06:34.420
and technology, I'm not sure I'm much of anything.
01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:38.260
If I were to guess at looking over your shoulder,
01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:43.130
it would be like plants. Oh, maybe horticulture,
01:06:43.869 --> 01:06:46.150
perhaps. Although I'm kind of terrible at it
01:06:46.150 --> 01:06:48.050
right now. I got two plants fighting for their
01:06:48.050 --> 01:06:55.090
lives right now. I would do a dangerously close
01:06:55.090 --> 01:07:00.389
to education. I'll give you that. But the importance
01:07:00.389 --> 01:07:04.300
of classical thought. um how the modern world
01:07:04.300 --> 01:07:06.400
has kind of gotten a little ugly in my opinion
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:08.960
like everything's all about efficiency but nothing
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:11.900
looks pretty or nice anymore right that kind
01:07:11.900 --> 01:07:14.679
of bugs me out quite a bit it's like not everything
01:07:14.679 --> 01:07:17.059
has to be minimalist design minimalism is not
01:07:17.059 --> 01:07:20.139
always cool sometimes it's boring giver i'm looking
01:07:20.139 --> 01:07:22.099
for a house right now if you go on zillow like
01:07:22.099 --> 01:07:24.480
the number of like really cool old looking houses
01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:27.139
and go inside the building and they redid it
01:07:27.139 --> 01:07:29.920
so everything's just white and black and there's
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:31.960
no color in the house whatsoever and nothing
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:34.719
is exciting. I kind of get we could do better
01:07:34.719 --> 01:07:36.480
as a modern world. You don't have to sacrifice
01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:38.980
beauty for efficiency. You can have the two things
01:07:38.980 --> 01:07:41.579
live together. That'd be my Ted talk for sure.
01:07:41.860 --> 01:07:43.980
Yeah. Now I'm passionate about it. Now I kind
01:07:43.980 --> 01:07:46.940
of want to go do a Ted talk on architecture in
01:07:46.940 --> 01:07:49.960
the modern world. Maybe it'd be a snooze fest.
01:07:50.860 --> 01:07:55.400
All right. What piece of old school tech still
01:07:55.400 --> 01:07:58.650
deserves respect? I mean, no one really thinks
01:07:58.650 --> 01:08:02.369
about it as technology, but paper, pencil. This
01:08:02.369 --> 01:08:04.369
is the most enduring pieces of technology we've
01:08:04.369 --> 01:08:07.550
had. I mean, we still use them in classrooms.
01:08:08.150 --> 01:08:11.030
We still, I have four monitors on my desk right
01:08:11.030 --> 01:08:13.349
now, but I still have paper and pencil notes.
01:08:13.510 --> 01:08:15.530
I mean, we don't think about it, but we should
01:08:15.530 --> 01:08:19.109
because paper's ultimately like one of the most
01:08:19.109 --> 01:08:22.140
ingenious inventions that we've ever had. Yeah,
01:08:22.140 --> 01:08:23.819
it's kind of funny. I just thought about this
01:08:23.819 --> 01:08:26.220
but like yeah I was on the phone the other day
01:08:26.220 --> 01:08:28.579
and they had to give me a number or something
01:08:28.579 --> 01:08:31.640
and They'd never say you got a computer nearby.
01:08:31.640 --> 01:08:35.760
It's always you got a pen. Yeah exactly Exactly
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:38.899
you think of that All right, so we're gonna give
01:08:38.899 --> 01:08:41.180
you just some rapid -fire and it's this or that
01:08:41.180 --> 01:08:44.220
you got to pick one or the other. Okay? Structured
01:08:44.220 --> 01:08:47.060
lesson plan or open -ended project structured
01:08:47.060 --> 01:08:51.529
lesson plan Road trip put playlist or true Crime
01:08:51.529 --> 01:08:56.710
podcast. Playlist. It would have been podcasts
01:08:56.710 --> 01:08:58.529
like 10 years ago, but I'm kind of off the true
01:08:58.529 --> 01:09:03.210
crime now. Sure. AI for ideation or AI for feedback?
01:09:03.729 --> 01:09:06.750
Feedback. Always start with the human idea. Would
01:09:06.750 --> 01:09:09.750
you rather possess super strength or super intelligence?
01:09:11.510 --> 01:09:13.829
Super intelligence. I mean, then I could just
01:09:13.829 --> 01:09:16.189
build an awesome Iron Man suit and I have super
01:09:16.189 --> 01:09:20.420
strength, you know. Sure. Rubric -driven output
01:09:20.420 --> 01:09:26.119
or creative output? Depends on the context. I
01:09:26.119 --> 01:09:28.420
didn't pick either one, but it really does depend.
01:09:28.699 --> 01:09:31.300
Both work. We're easy going. We let you have
01:09:31.300 --> 01:09:34.439
that. Would you rather cook at home or order
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:39.720
takeout? Cook at home. David just added this
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:41.720
one. He snuck this one in. Steelers or Eagles?
01:09:42.619 --> 01:09:46.000
Oh, Steelers. I'm from Pittsburgh. And really
01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:48.229
I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan. My uncle is an Eagles
01:09:48.229 --> 01:09:50.369
fan, but I can't give him the satisfaction. So
01:09:50.369 --> 01:09:53.710
Steelers 100%. OK, what about Aaron Rodgers?
01:09:55.810 --> 01:09:58.550
Because I I live in Minnesota, but I'm from Wisconsin,
01:09:58.550 --> 01:10:01.029
so I'm OK. I mean, so that's where that comes
01:10:01.029 --> 01:10:03.550
from. You're like one of those guys who like
01:10:03.550 --> 01:10:05.869
McCarthy. You're in Rogers. I love those guys.
01:10:06.449 --> 01:10:08.130
But when they play for another team, it must
01:10:08.130 --> 01:10:09.850
be that you don't want to leave in Cleveland.
01:10:09.850 --> 01:10:11.850
It's like you went and played for Miami. Get
01:10:11.850 --> 01:10:16.739
out of here. Yeah. And what about being at conferences?
01:10:16.899 --> 01:10:19.100
Is it more important to have those hallway conversations
01:10:19.100 --> 01:10:22.560
or the keynote sessions? I mean, definitely it's
01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:24.060
the one -on -one interactions you have with people.
01:10:24.140 --> 01:10:26.260
I mean, that's how we met. It wasn't a keynote.
01:10:26.600 --> 01:10:29.220
It was chatting casually at a conference. Those
01:10:29.220 --> 01:10:32.640
are much more rewarding than seeing whatever
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:35.600
big name they got to come speak. They can usually
01:10:35.600 --> 01:10:40.279
be good. I don't know. Some keynotes. You can
01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:41.619
always tell I mean if you're sitting in the conference
01:10:41.619 --> 01:10:43.039
look around if everyone's on their phone You
01:10:43.039 --> 01:10:45.760
know the quality of that keynote. I Shouldn't
01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:47.819
give a keynote right because I'd go on for three
01:10:47.819 --> 01:10:49.880
hours. We'd all be sitting there Like is this
01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:53.680
guy gonna stop? I mean, he's really going But
01:10:53.680 --> 01:10:55.640
I try to speak with passion. So, you know, they'll
01:10:55.640 --> 01:10:57.840
pick up their heads from their phones. They'll
01:10:57.840 --> 01:10:59.640
have to listen That's the idea. But anyway, yeah,
01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:04.039
sorry side conversation No, and this is a good
01:11:04.039 --> 01:11:06.020
follow -up question because if you were to give
01:11:06.020 --> 01:11:09.579
a keynote presentation tomorrow What would be
01:11:09.579 --> 01:11:11.800
your walk -up song that you would have to play
01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:16.020
before you go on stage? I Have I actually have
01:11:16.020 --> 01:11:19.579
to give a keynote in March. I'm sorry in April
01:11:19.579 --> 01:11:21.800
early April and I've been thinking about this
01:11:21.800 --> 01:11:26.420
very question It's got to be something It can't
01:11:26.420 --> 01:11:29.300
be boring, right? So I used to I also box and
01:11:29.300 --> 01:11:30.840
I always I always think about the walk -out song
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:32.539
What is it gonna be because it's got to be something
01:11:32.539 --> 01:11:40.479
great I tried once to What's the name of that
01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:44.699
song? It's a remix the the beat is from the Godzilla
01:11:44.699 --> 01:11:50.500
theme and then and then and then And then there's
01:11:50.500 --> 01:11:52.939
like a beat my wife said I wasn't muscular enough
01:11:52.939 --> 01:11:58.640
for that song. So 21st century boy by What's
01:11:58.640 --> 01:12:00.880
the name of that band? I forget the name of the
01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:02.460
band, but it's a great song Everyone should go
01:12:02.460 --> 01:12:04.140
listen to it right now and be like, oh, yeah,
01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:07.380
that's one hell of a walk -up song I'll look
01:12:07.380 --> 01:12:12.949
it up T Rex that's the name of the band They
01:12:12.949 --> 01:12:16.050
did We might have to look that up and play that
01:12:16.050 --> 01:12:19.489
as an outro or something here What's your guys's
01:12:19.489 --> 01:12:21.470
intro for this podcast that was going pretty
01:12:21.470 --> 01:12:23.569
hard I like like that four on the floor techno
01:12:23.569 --> 01:12:26.689
be like I was nodding my head I was playing every
01:12:26.689 --> 01:12:28.270
breast you're still remembering that from an
01:12:28.270 --> 01:12:33.359
hour ago No, you know, Thomas, speaking of that,
01:12:33.359 --> 01:12:35.279
you know, we're just really appreciative to be
01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:37.319
able to have you on the show. And we had a lot
01:12:37.319 --> 01:12:39.560
of great conversation and really want to thank
01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:43.380
you for sharing your time with us. But we want
01:12:43.380 --> 01:12:45.539
to give you a moment here, too. You know, I know
01:12:45.539 --> 01:12:47.840
you mentioned maybe have a keynote address that's
01:12:47.840 --> 01:12:50.479
coming up or is there anything you want to share,
01:12:50.619 --> 01:12:53.939
anything you want to promote in our last little
01:12:53.939 --> 01:12:57.100
bit that we have here or or even, you know, like,
01:12:57.220 --> 01:12:59.180
how could people reach out to edge aid if they're
01:12:59.180 --> 01:13:01.159
interested in learning more? Yeah, I mean, if
01:13:01.159 --> 01:13:02.800
I was going to promote anything, it would probably
01:13:02.800 --> 01:13:06.060
be, go check out Edu8. That would be, maybe it'd
01:13:06.060 --> 01:13:07.819
be worth your time if you're listening and you're
01:13:07.819 --> 01:13:09.899
looking for something to do. Nice way to spend
01:13:09.899 --> 01:13:12.500
an afternoon. But yeah, seriously, you can go
01:13:12.500 --> 01:13:15.359
to Edu8 .ai. All the contact information's right
01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:17.800
there. There's a Contact Us button. Those emails
01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:20.579
go out to our team, so I get access to those.
01:13:20.899 --> 01:13:23.119
You can reach us right there at contact .edu8
01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:26.420
.ai. All the social medias as well, we're on
01:13:26.420 --> 01:13:28.659
them. We have a nice Facebook community with
01:13:28.659 --> 01:13:31.479
like 2000 teachers right now. Nice close Nick
01:13:31.479 --> 01:13:34.720
group, um, share lesson plans. And we have like
01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:37.119
contests where you can create something on EduAid
01:13:37.119 --> 01:13:40.279
and share it. And we do giveaways and gift cards
01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:42.880
and all kinds of fun stuff over there. So yeah,
01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:45.060
I mean, check out EduAid AI. That's kind of the
01:13:45.060 --> 01:13:47.100
home base. You'll see our blog, all of our socials
01:13:47.100 --> 01:13:49.079
from there. You can get ahold of us as well.
01:13:49.539 --> 01:13:51.760
And, um, I might see some of you on the conference
01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:53.899
circuit. I don't do many of those. I try to batch
01:13:53.899 --> 01:13:56.430
them together. So like April is my conference
01:13:56.430 --> 01:13:58.649
month. I'll be away from my house for like 20
01:13:58.649 --> 01:14:02.090
days just traveling around. So I'll see you.
01:14:02.090 --> 01:14:05.270
I'll see some of the folks there. I hope. Perfect.
01:14:05.430 --> 01:14:07.449
Well, thanks again. We really appreciate having
01:14:07.449 --> 01:14:15.850
you. Thank you so much. Thanks Thomas. Thanks
01:14:15.850 --> 01:14:18.609
for listening to Integrate This. Want to take
01:14:18.609 --> 01:14:20.869
your learning further? Head over to our YouTube
01:14:20.869 --> 01:14:24.100
channel for quick tutorials, deep dives, and
01:14:24.100 --> 01:14:27.500
more EdTech tips you can use right away. Don't
01:14:27.500 --> 01:14:30.520
forget to subscribe and catch new podcast episodes
01:14:30.520 --> 01:14:34.279
every Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever
01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:37.659
you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep
01:14:37.659 --> 01:14:41.020
exploring, keep innovating, and keep integrating
01:14:41.020 --> 01:14:41.420
this.