00:00.00
jeffwatson
Well hello everybody on the inspired minds podcast you dazzled throng, please welcome the lovely and talented Jeremy Heller Heagur god I screwed that up in the beginning how you doing how's that for an intro hu pretty good.
00:11.40
Jeremy Helligar
Hey job and.
00:19.10
jeffwatson
Out of the gate. Thank you So very very much for doing this Jeremy and on you, there's a lot of stuff I want to get into um but the None question that I always ask on this podcast is the exact same and that is the following when you were young. What was the None thing that you can remember that inspired you when you were a kid. Was it a song or was it a book or a show. Go.
00:41.70
Jeremy Helligar
I remember when I was in fifth grade I my teacher used to have auctions and um, we would like raise money over the course of a term and at the end of the term he would like use the money we raised. To buy all of these things that we would bid on at the auction and I won a transistor radio and I remember going home and being that radio was attached to my air for months and I remember going home.
01:07.16
jeffwatson
Um, who.
01:18.73
Jeremy Helligar
And just laying lying in bed with the chanceistor radio up to my air listening to the latest to the like most popular country music and pop radio stations because those were the two forms of music that I grew up with and that just sort of.
01:32.34
jeffwatson
Ah.
01:37.78
Jeremy Helligar
I mean I always was a fan of music. But I think that turned me into something more than a fan I became a bit obsessed and then in later years I married my obsession with music with my love of writing.
01:44.69
jeffwatson
Oh.
01:56.57
Jeremy Helligar
And my talent for writing and kind of turned that into a career eventually as a music journalist.
02:03.99
jeffwatson
Yes, and you have answered the second part of my question already congratulations because part B the follow up model the follow up to all that is just what you said I ask what? Okay how did that inspire you to get where you are right? like what's the through line and.
02:08.66
Jeremy Helligar
Um, a None
02:18.19
Jeremy Helligar
Well, it's really funny because my mother if you meet my mom. She always tells the story about how when I was about ten ten Eleven I walked up to her one day and I said mom I want to be a walk journalist. And she'll say I had no idea what that was but I knew that he could do it. So I guess maybe subconsciously I was probably trying to prove it to my mother that I could do it.
02:42.32
jeffwatson
Oh how sweet.
02:52.11
jeffwatson
Um, yeah, yeah, that as you're as a therapist that sounds about right, but that is that is just an absolutely wonderful thing and I have to ask is now I've got this like visual memory of you holding a transosor radio in bed.
02:56.84
Jeremy Helligar
Um.
03:08.66
jeffwatson
And listening So what were the songs that you can remember do you remember any.
03:10.48
Jeremy Helligar
Well, it would it would have been around 1980 so in 19 I think the big hits around that time were probably songs like I remember the None episode.
03:16.46
jeffwatson
Ah.
03:27.93
Jeremy Helligar
Of Casey Ksum's american top 40 that I ever listened to the number 1 song was magic by Olivia Newton John yeah and I remember coming up by Paul Mccartney it's still rock and roll to me by Billy Joel
03:30.46
jeffwatson
Small right. Um, oh you Newton John that's a good song that was bad. Um, yep.
03:47.41
Jeremy Helligar
The stars on 45 medley betty did his eyes those were all hits around that time. Yeah, and I just thought I was the coolest person because I was listening to the coolest music.
03:48.26
jeffwatson
Um, Heart Sun wait a minute wait a minute back. Wow stars on 45 Keep bunter books in Big. Yes, you were absolutely where and before I close before I move on here I Got to say I just had this sense memory of about that same age by the way because you and I are essentially you same age-ishsh and it seems and I remember.
04:07.20
Jeremy Helligar
And.
04:19.14
jeffwatson
Listening to I wouldn't go to bed I just remember this I wouldn't go to sleep until I heard Africa by toto on the local radio station. So I'd stay up like for an hour sometimes waiting for it.
04:26.70
Jeremy Helligar
Oh my godness Africa you know what? the Africa hit number one. The only number one hit but I always liked Rosanne Better rosanna rosesanna I liked Roseanna better.
04:38.13
jeffwatson
That's a way better song way better way better the and time but it goes the jazz like as section at the end Steve.
04:46.45
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, so good if I so good but to only hit number 2
04:52.89
jeffwatson
Wow they screwed up obviously so wow, it's you know? and and as you know it's 6 15 a m my time and I'm already talking about toto I'm good. Um, so let's kind of move on here a little bit. Ah your your story is absolutely fascinating to me and there's a lot of stuff I want to kind of cover.
05:02.20
Jeremy Helligar
And.
05:12.48
jeffwatson
But it seems that you started your professional gig. Basically at people where you are the executive editor as an intern like right out of college.
05:19.74
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, it was really interesting because at the end of college I was a little bit nervous because I wanted an internship and it was down to the wire and I hadn't gotten one yet. So. We had I had gone to a school fair with the national association of black journalists and I had met None of the top editors at time magazine which was owned by the same company as people magazine and I sent him a letter. Saying you know I met you at the conference I'm about to graduate and I'm wondering. Is there an internship that might be available for me and he actually remembered me and was so impressed that he passed my material. Along to people magazine and people magazine actually ended up reaching out to me and to be honest I was a little bit angry because to me people. Magazine I was a little snobby people. Magazine was my mom's magazine. You know I was young a young kid.
06:11.46
jeffwatson
Ah.
06:19.38
jeffwatson
Um, ah.
06:25.54
jeffwatson
Um, right.
06:31.17
Jeremy Helligar
I didn't want to work for my mom's magazine. So I kind of went into it thinking? Oh my god they're going to fly me up to New York they're going to put me up in a nice hotel. They're going to interview me for an internship I'll do it but I'm doing it mostly because I want to go to New York
06:31.58
jeffwatson
Are.
06:50.47
Jeremy Helligar
So once I came up and met everyone by the time I left New York I really really wanted it and I remember um I remember that? Um, although I really wanted it I still had reservations about the magazine just because. It was about celebrities. It was a magazine that my mother loved but before graduation I got an internship at the Charlotte observer in North Carolina and I remember going up to Charlotte working there for the summer for three months
07:12.47
jeffwatson
Um.
07:18.86
jeffwatson
But yeah.
07:26.43
Jeremy Helligar
And toward the end of my time there when I was about to come to New York for people magazine a friend of mine from college visited me and we were out at a bar one night and I was talking to him about the people magazine internship and a woman. Overheard us at the bar and she comes over and she goes what you're going to be working at people Maxine. That's the kind of thing that people spend their entire careers working towards and you're starting there so when she said that to me I realized.
07:56.95
jeffwatson
Oh yeah.
08:02.74
Jeremy Helligar
That I had to count my blessings that this was a really great great thing and that's when I really decided I was going to do the best job of my life at people magazine.
08:12.27
jeffwatson
Talk about a through line right? I mean that's unbelievable. That's like the stories of you hear about you know Studio executives who are at the they're the meo guy in the beginning and then they kind of stay at the same company. It's amazing and now. The question I got for you is that when you were younger and doing that intern kind of writing what kind of writing were you doing.
08:32.21
Jeremy Helligar
Well I started off as a fact checker as an intern. What interns did back back then were there were basically fact checkers so I had to really fight to be able to start doing music reviews.
08:36.35
jeffwatson
Um, ah.
08:41.77
jeffwatson
Um, or.
08:51.41
Jeremy Helligar
And from that I started I was able to start doing writing regular stories and they eventually promoted me to staff writer but I have to say I left the magazine for more than 20 years and I came back last year as executive editor.
09:02.87
jeffwatson
Right.
09:09.11
jeffwatson
Um, yeah.
09:11.16
Jeremy Helligar
So you know there were like so many things so many different magazines so many different countries happened between my None stint at people and my current stint at people.
09:21.41
jeffwatson
Of course and clearly you've learned a lot and that's where but I got to ask actually about the music review thing because you know I'm ah a clearly I'm a music nerd. Youre a music nerd and so when you were writing the ah the music reviews. What are some of the. We're talking like probably what 1985 maybe really funny. Sorry, okay, so ah, I'm trying to get ah an understanding of some of the band you wrote about.
09:40.50
Jeremy Helligar
No, no, no, this was an early 90 s yeah okay, the very None music review that I did for people magazine was on an album by a band called.
09:57.34
jeffwatson
The shaman but it's ah okay.
09:57.77
Jeremy Helligar
Shaman Yeah, and and I remember some of the early reviews I did a review of inexcees Album Welcome to wherever you are I did a review of an album by hot House flowers called.
10:08.38
jeffwatson
Ah.
10:16.61
jeffwatson
Yeah, don't go was there a hit I think right.
10:17.23
Jeremy Helligar
Songs from the ran. Yeah, but don't go I built don't go was from their previous album. Um, and um, who else did I review. Wow I also did reviews for entertainment weekly I remember reviewing um do drops in the sunshine by delight I reviewed wow wow It's so weird I'm blanking all of a sudden.
10:37.36
jeffwatson
So.
10:45.40
jeffwatson
And.
10:47.51
Jeremy Helligar
I remember I remember I reviewed David bowys outside album and I also got to interview David Bowie None which was kind of my claim to fame that was my claim to Fa.
10:54.34
jeffwatson
Um, yeah I've noticed. Yeah I Yeah my next question I've already did are we ahead of you. My new friend so I have a specific question about that and I think it's a general question but using bowie is kind of a lens. So.
11:06.50
Jeremy Helligar
Ah.
11:14.28
jeffwatson
As I mentioned earlier you I used to work at Wonderbos Records and you know you meet everybody as you clearly you've met pretty much everybody or at least you understand that that world of like you know celebrity. So when I um so I always kept everything I kept my excitement dialed down as much as possible when I whenever I was around an artist because I didn't want to geek out.
11:21.48
Jeremy Helligar
Yes.
11:33.80
jeffwatson
You know make it uncomfortable. We get business and such but it's hard to hide that. But when I none met Neil young I lost my mind I mean I just went I was babbling I was like oh my god tran is the greatest rickard the you after the gold rush is the greatestest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. It just like 30 seconds of that and he literally stopped me and he said is on the phone. He goes. Yeah I ain't anyway kid he like moved on right? So my question is do do a geek out.
11:59.73
Jeremy Helligar
You know I geek out in my head. My favorite singer solo singer of all time is Tammy Wineette Tammy when that and I remember when the None time I interviewed I actually interviewed her solo onces.
12:07.59
jeffwatson
Ah, me too continue. Yeah.
12:18.44
Jeremy Helligar
And I interviewed her and George Jones on the phone once the first time I interviewed her she rings me up and I pick up the phone and she goes hey Jeremy it's tammy when that like it's just something that happens every day.
12:18.93
jeffwatson
Um, um.
12:36.28
Jeremy Helligar
And it was so hard for me not to geek out but I didn't write the key I The thing that I always did when I interviewed musicians was I didn't geek out but the way that I made them feel at ease.
12:38.96
jeffwatson
Um, yeah, yet.
12:49.55
jeffwatson
Ah.
12:51.73
Jeremy Helligar
Was by bringing up something really or can about their career like with Tammy I talked to her about being a little kid and watching her on he ha singing womanhood which was a 1978 hit but not 1 of her better known songs.
13:02.50
jeffwatson
Um, um, yeah.
13:11.80
Jeremy Helligar
And the fact that I knew that song really impressed her and it put her immediately at ease and years later when I met Bono I met Bono at the Chateau Mamont in front of the elevator and at the time the album all that you can't leave.
13:21.35
jeffwatson
Awkward. But.
13:28.96
jeffwatson
Right.
13:29.48
Jeremy Helligar
Behind was out and I told him you know what my favorite song that album was is in a little while and his jaw dropped to the floor and it was like really he said there is a special club of people with good taste of music.
13:40.70
jeffwatson
Or.
13:47.83
Jeremy Helligar
Who count that among their favorite songs. So I I found over my career that the best way to really break the eyes and make a musician feel at ease was by knowing their music inside and out and then sort of dropping. Ah, comment about None of their tracks that no one else would ever mention and that a and that was always sort of the way in.
14:09.73
jeffwatson
Ah, a hu I have to good. And that's absolutely what I do actually could be honest. Well I'm not kidding on this show. This is exactly what I do and here's a good example I interviewed the editor of all of the Pa de palma movies. All of them.
14:22.86
Jeremy Helligar
Ah.
14:36.60
jeffwatson
Ah, you know Carrie and this he did star wars empire strikes back John Hughes wife of pi like he's guy named about Paul Hirsch right I didn't but star wars or empire strikes back I ended up asking him about this super obscure film. He made with de palma called a fan with a paradise back in the mid seventy s. And he he lit up like a Christmas tree.
14:55.25
Jeremy Helligar
Because people I think I you know everyone is going to compliment them on certain things. But I think if there's something that's under appreciated, especially if it's something that they're really proud of.
15:03.54
jeffwatson
So.
15:13.20
Jeremy Helligar
They'll really really appreciate The fact that you appreciate it.
15:18.64
jeffwatson
Right? right? because it's a binding agent I've heard this term recently then and I just love it that music and art but music is a binding agent and.
15:26.73
Jeremy Helligar
Um, yeah, and and it made me feel so good because Bono is someone that I grew up really respecting.
15:39.81
jeffwatson
Who.
15:42.20
Jeremy Helligar
And for him to sort of put me in the category of people with really great taste in music because of something I said about this kind of obscure track on a pretty big album made me feel really really important.
15:57.12
jeffwatson
Um, of course it did of course? Well what a lovely absolutely lovely story I love these kind of things and so speaking of stories as I for a seg speaking of stories you. So I really want to talk about your ah your book specifically storms in America or storms in Africa rather and um I don't have is it true. What they say ah black about black men and so these are travel logs as I understand it from what I saw and I just think really wonderful concept.
16:26.98
Jeremy Helligar
Yes, 1
16:31.22
jeffwatson
Kind of bookend some of these experiences with these books I guess literally can you tell me a little bit about the books. But more importantly, what you've really learned from all those experiences I'm a fan of finding out what people learned.
16:40.83
Jeremy Helligar
Well, you know it's interesting because um I was a writer and an editor for many years in New York and I think I did it because. I thought I was good at it but not because I loved it and it wasn't until I remember the none place I moved when when I left New York in 2006 was Buenos Aires
16:58.60
jeffwatson
Ah. M.
17:12.42
jeffwatson
A.
17:14.69
Jeremy Helligar
And I remember meeting someone who told me you know? yeah and you know for the first year or maybe 2 years I didn't write anything I was so burned burnt out from 15 years in New York city I was burnt out and I just sort of like partyed and hung out.
17:22.25
jeffwatson
And.
17:33.27
Jeremy Helligar
For a couple of years and I remember writing some I remember meeting someone who suggested that I do a blog. He said it'll be something that's fun. It'll be a way to document your experiences think of it sort of like a diary. And you won't have the pressure of deadlines or having to please anyone and I thought it sounded interesting and I said you know what I'm going to do it and I started a blog called theme for great cities where I started writing about my experiences as a gay black man.
18:09.88
jeffwatson
Um.
18:10.78
Jeremy Helligar
And Brenos airs and that's when I started to love writing for the none time because I wasn't doing it for money I was doing it for love of the game and I wasn't I wasn't taking on assignments. I was writing about things that were important to me whether it was a where date or a strange encounter or just something that was on my mind and that sort of evolved into my writing about. Ah, doing a lot of writing about sex about my sexual orientation and about race the racism that I experienced and it sort of changed my whole approach to writing and.
18:50.20
jeffwatson
Forever.
19:02.42
Jeremy Helligar
I ended up living in several different countries I lived in Bangkok for a while I lived in um Australia for a lot for a while I lived in cape town for a while and I remember when I was living in Thailand I was talking to my best friend and my best friend was saying you know. You have this with your blog. You have all of these blog entries. You know I would have people in foreign countries who recognized who would see me in public and would recognize me from my picture on my blog and approach me and say oh my god I love your blog.
19:39.10
jeffwatson
Wow cool.
19:41.53
Jeremy Helligar
Which to me it's crazy. You know I met a guy in breno service that way I met a guy in Berlin that way which I thought was crazy like how is this blog that I'm doing on my couch reaching people around the world. But um.
19:49.73
jeffwatson
Yeah, yeah.
19:59.60
Jeremy Helligar
My best friend Laurie she said you know you really ought to consider writing a book. So my none book was actually an extension of my blog where I took blog posts that I had written. And sort of revise them and beef them up and turn them into chapters and so the book was sort of about my experiences as a fish out of water living in Australia. Living in Thailand living in Buenos Aires and that book is a true what to say about black black men was like largely about my outward experiences. You know what I experience you know, funny anecdotes falling in. Love.
20:34.80
jeffwatson
Um.
20:47.20
Jeremy Helligar
In Australia with the guy that I'm now married to um that was the first book the second book storms in Africa was about the year that I spent living in Cape town and that was more of an internal experience and that book is more about what I learned.
20:50.84
jeffwatson
Congratulations.
21:06.32
Jeremy Helligar
On the inside and I think that the big the the greatest thing I learned from not only doing the books but from living in foreign countries where I often didn't speak the language where I was the underdog I mean I've always been the underdog as a gay black black man.
21:23.68
jeffwatson
Work.
21:26.16
Jeremy Helligar
But living in a place where you don't speak the language and you don't have a passport makes you very vulnerable and I think it taught me a kind of humility that.
21:35.45
jeffwatson
Putin.
21:43.68
Jeremy Helligar
I didn't know before and an appreciation for people from all walks of life. So I reached a point where I the the woman or the man cleaning the toilet at a hotel or at a restaurant. I approached with the same respect that I would approach the president of a company because to me they were all doing really important important work.
22:09.20
jeffwatson
And you. Right? right? Take Yes, if I can if I can get like a little underline right? There ladies and gentlemen think of visualization of what he just said I'm gonna underline it. It's correct.
22:25.96
Jeremy Helligar
So I think I think like learning that humility it changed me as a person and it turned me into a much more God I Want to use to write words here I think it turned me into a much more.
22:44.73
jeffwatson
A.
22:45.40
Jeremy Helligar
Open person. It turned me into a much more accepting person and it turned me into someone who doesn't take myself as seriously. Although from my writing people might think oh Jeremy you take yourself away seriously but I really don't I mean come compared to who I was when I was living in New York I really I've I've I've really become a much more humble modest person than I was.
23:07.37
jeffwatson
Sure, Yeah, okay.
23:21.10
jeffwatson
I Well I from where I'm sitting standing Honestly currently it sounds That's like that's correct. Um, because yeah when I here's what I think honestly very I've.
23:21.18
Jeremy Helligar
And my previous life I'd like to thank at least.
23:35.55
jeffwatson
Ah, similar story in terms of just I like mentioned earlier about bouncing around the world and I went to work at an orphanage in Cambodia and bunch stuff and I think the thing that really kind of to be honest with you pulled me out of some darkness was just this connection because I've been saying this for a while that we we're in a pandemic of disconnection now you know and. Way to get out of all that is to I don't know g connect and when I started to travel I had the same experience. It was that empathy. It was that kind of you. What's important so it. That's a wonder. Um.
24:00.40
Jeremy Helligar
Oh.
24:10.54
jeffwatson
I have other questions I can't wait for this one. This is going to be a fun one I think find out what happens I not fun. Let's just see where this goes I read a review that you had done on the show Fire Island on huluop pretty well and and I'm going to quote use some lines and then we're going to discuss them.
24:21.51
Jeremy Helligar
To her.
24:28.29
jeffwatson
I was singing when I freed you but my pride was just a veil I pretended not to need you now my heart tells a different tale from hearts in armor by Tricia Yerewood and you had you wrote this and I think this is so wonderful. Hearts in armor those 3 little words for me so perfectly captured the essence of love that dare not speak his name and that this concept of people have to protect their hearts by building fortresses around them and it thought and when I saw hearts in armor just like you did I was kind of taken aback. But a phrase.
25:02.79
Jeremy Helligar
I'll never forget when Trisha Yawood released that album and that title it stuck with me for months and it kept going around and round in my head and I kept thinking I wish I had come up with that phrase. I need to find some way to pay tribute to that amazing album title at some point it took me nearly thirty years but I feel it's something we all do and you know I met my husband in 2010 and we dated for several years split up for like 6 years and then got back together in 2019 and we're now married and I think the reason why we were able to get back together in 2019.
25:48.67
jeffwatson
Raja.
25:55.98
Jeremy Helligar
Was because I broke the armor that was around my heart and I decided that I was going to be vulnerable because we hadn't spoken for 12 years and over those six years I had never gotten over him.
25:57.96
jeffwatson
So you.
26:13.65
Jeremy Helligar
But I was afraid to reach out because I was afraid of what of how we would respond if I reach rich we reach that I couldn't handle the idea of rejection And finally I just said screw it I'm just going to go for it which I did and.
26:17.19
jeffwatson
So.
26:31.26
jeffwatson
Oop.
26:32.90
Jeremy Helligar
He responded the way that I wanted him to but because of our history. You know it took him a while to really believe what was happening because we reconnected and everything fell into place.
26:35.80
jeffwatson
E.
26:50.31
Jeremy Helligar
But it took him a while to um, really trust in what was happening and I think the old me would have backed off and said well if he doesn't know that he wants this I'm just going to move on but I didn't I sat and I was Patient. And I said you know I'm going to let this I'm going to let what happens happen I am going to keep my heart out of arm armor put it on the line I'm going to let him know that I want this. And maybe he won't want it. Maybe he'll reject me and if he does at least I can live the rest of my life knowing that I did what I could and then I can truly move on but maybe he'll feel the same with he.
27:38.90
jeffwatson
Correct.
27:45.52
Jeremy Helligar
And it took a little while but it turned out that he did feel the same way and now we're married and living in New York City and you know everything is great and it feels like I think he had a lot of growing of he had a lot of growing to do and I think he was probably he was.
28:03.10
jeffwatson
Roots.
28:04.73
Jeremy Helligar
On a very similar trajectory that I was on learning to be vulnerable and learning to be open so we were like living separate lives but on similar trajectories and we came back together at the right time at the perfect time at the time when.
28:08.74
jeffwatson
Oh.
28:24.31
Jeremy Helligar
Were finally ready to be open and to risk like just being crushed and I think that's the only way that we're ever happy.
28:24.40
jeffwatson
The.
28:37.58
jeffwatson
And I love the thing that you say it's never too late to smelt the armor and open our hearts just a wonderful phrase for it Unfortunately though, if you don't smelt the armor you end up with what I'm starting to call a calcified heart right? because.
28:45.39
Jeremy Helligar
Um, yeah.
28:54.69
Jeremy Helligar
A.
28:57.29
jeffwatson
All those unresolved Traumas and all those unresolved issues. They start to calcify and then they start to stratify like any any rock is Born. You know that way with stratification of the calcification basically and then you need a jackhammer to get in and sometimes it doesn't work and that's why I think it's beautiful. When people open their hearts and are completely vulnerable.
29:17.62
Jeremy Helligar
I arm there's a song um a John Hyatt song that Linda wanstad covered on her. We ran album called I see blue heart and it's such a beautiful song and every time I listen to it.
29:21.61
jeffwatson
Oh.
29:35.57
Jeremy Helligar
To me. The song is almost like a cautionary tale of who I've never wanted to become someone who has been burned to the point where my heart ices over and I can't feel anymore.
29:38.00
jeffwatson
And huh.
29:48.72
jeffwatson
Yes, and yeah, right because the problem also with calcification and any of these metaphors is that essentially you're dead by that point. So you're kind of almost a zombie you know at least it's.
29:54.71
Jeremy Helligar
I Don't allow myself to feel anymore.
30:06.63
jeffwatson
Way I visualize this is that you know there's the heart The dead by that point once it's calcified that much and it's dark and you hate everything and you're afraid really what that is fraid of everything then you're kind of dead if you ask me? what.
30:17.80
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah, like life to me like life isn't worth living if you're not willing to open yourself up to pain. You can't play it safe.
30:30.90
jeffwatson
Yeah, ah absolutely and thank you for giving me that Heart's in armor song which you did inadvertently so I'm gonna go listen to it which leaves me actually off top. My head is there like a go to record that you have to kind of. Chill you out I suppose for lack of a better phrase. Mine personally is pet sounds by the beach boys. That's my when I need to when I need to get into space. That's what I go to.
30:58.31
Jeremy Helligar
Wow! Interesting question whenever I think of I have several you know Desert Island discs but when I think of the essential album that if i.
31:06.25
jeffwatson
Oh.
31:15.70
Jeremy Helligar
Could only listen to 1 album for the rest of my life. The album that always pops immediately into my head is turbulent indigo by Joni Mitchell which
31:28.50
jeffwatson
Whoa I ever I roof.
31:34.30
Jeremy Helligar
Which I actually reviewed either for people or entertainment weekly I think entertainment weekly and you know I love Joni Mitchell Blue is one of my favorite albums of all time and in the 90 s she made. Ah, she had a creative renaissance.
31:44.42
jeffwatson
Here. Yeah.
31:51.73
Jeremy Helligar
When she released this album turbulent in ago that ended up winning the grammy for best pop vocal album and it's an album that people you know people are so caught up in her classic period that I think it's overlooked but this is such a beautiful album.
31:56.19
jeffwatson
Um, sure to.
32:02.17
jeffwatson
Um, woman.
32:11.20
Jeremy Helligar
Such a beautiful album.
32:11.80
jeffwatson
It's not and it's not surprising because you know this because you're one yourself when you're an artist which you are obviously then you you have to create like so people like Joni Mitchell or Neil Young or you know the late Tom Petty or any of these people they have to create. Because otherwise they will die in my opinion you know, like real artists because they have that drive that almost they have to have that that almost with exorcism sometimes of just get this writing out of me right? Yeah I figured as much because I'm the same way quite frankly I mean I'm a musician and.
32:37.24
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah, I totally relate to that.
32:47.88
jeffwatson
I write my own thing but you know even being to be honest with even being a therapist I just started this stuff out, but it's a miracle because there is a lot of art to it somebody said actually that good therapy is 70% art 20% science and 10% luck to thought was amazing and. As such I want to talk a fool first can I really quickly tell you my amazing story about John E Marr from the smiths hey so ladies and gentlemen. There's a band called the smiths there's also a band called the cure and there's also a band called rem those are the the trifecta of Mr. Jeff Watson in about in the late eighty s.
33:12.46
Jeremy Helligar
Oh yeah, absolutely.
33:25.75
jeffwatson
Okay, or even mid 80 s and the smiths were this legendary band from the U K and started out like in the 80 s or so and there's still magical albums they broke up a long time ago and the lead singer Morrisey is famously known for being a terrible human being. But Johnny Mar I heard it as always a good guy so I met Warner Brothers about ten years ago and somebody calls me and says ah get up in my office right now it's Johnny Marty you got to get up here. He's incredibly cool and I'm like bye so I like left this meeting and went upstairs and he's there. And he was charming. Oh my god the guy was so funny. He was incredible. We were like bf f's side of the gate and I'm freaking out but here's the punchline assistant comes in and says hey does anybody want any food orders and we're going down the list and I said i' I'm gonna have a burger please and he goes don't you know meat is murder. Right? I mean it was amazing. So that's my john e mar story right.
34:19.55
Jeremy Helligar
Well, you just named my 3 favorite bands of all time number 1 the smiths number 2 the cure number 3 or EM and my musical trajectory is really weird because growing up.
34:23.24
jeffwatson
And oh I know I did my research.
34:37.47
Jeremy Helligar
As a young young kid my introduction to music was through a gospel and country because that's what my parents listened to and I think that my parents kind of thought you know we were very religious and my parents thought that country was the closest.
34:42.55
jeffwatson
Oh name I.
34:57.30
Jeremy Helligar
Form of secular music to gospel which I guess to never really listen to the lyrics and and later on I added pop music to the mix and then rock and roll and in the mid eighty s.
34:57.58
jeffwatson
Ah, hey George Jones talking about Jesus and.
35:16.92
Jeremy Helligar
I Bought the album live switch pageant by or E M and that was the beginning of my love affair with alternative music which at the time was called College rock.
35:21.14
jeffwatson
Aha yep yeah. Oh my god I a drag by the way fall on me. No I got that in my head what a song or Superman or you get ah on me oh my and ladies and gentlemen you have to go listen to our a if you've never heard it before.
35:32.67
Jeremy Helligar
Ah, amazing. Follow me is just like Amazingness amazingness.
35:43.73
jeffwatson
But because you'll understand what I got ready to say is that the bass player guy named Mike Mills is like the unsung hero in that band because because harmonies are insane. Oh god oh my god I had lunch with Peter Buck one time and that's why I actually kind of did nerd out by the way. It was also kind of.
35:50.28
Jeremy Helligar
Absolutely right? absolutely.
36:00.23
Jeremy Helligar
And I love Orm's music I loved their music all the way to the end I Even love the album around the sun which no one loved. Not even ore M and I love that album. Love that album to me the song.
36:09.50
jeffwatson
Um, now um I.
36:18.27
Jeremy Helligar
The worst joke ever is amazing. Amazing it.
36:19.67
jeffwatson
Okay I what for you buddy my new friend my new I maybe I'll go the I'm gonna get better friend. We'll see what happens. Ah, ah okay I have this is the this is the big kahuna I'm so excited for this one. So I want to talk a little bit about the cult of of celebrity throughout America specifically. Two hundred years ago so I yeah was I'm fascinated by people who were I'm fascinated by the fascination of celebrity culture right? So I know there's a lot of class fantasy that kind of goes on with that like oh look at them I am not that person I want to be that person and there's this you know that transference of that stuff. But I found something interesting. So. Didn't really know this but I guess the cult of there. The cult of celebrity kicked off kind of like in the middle like late None s with Lord Byron apparently he posted his poem. Don Juan is like massive ah bump and he was stalked and he had like groupies and it was and then it went on to this guy named Alexis Soyer who's a french cook in London. The none century. He started selling his own bottled sauces and started putting pictures of himself with his trademark red beret on the labels. So then he was a star one other the thing I think is interesting is that apparently in 11 there was a theater producer who literally said. The star system in America loom so large because americans were what he called quote an individual loving people that that was interesting but my favorite thing is because this ties into you especially when it comes to people magazine and and and many things that you've written for that apparently in the 1830 s I guess. The news decided to become more commercial so instead of doing ¢5 of paper. They narrowed it down to ah a penny a paper they were called penny papers. So everyone could read them. Not just the elite. So the subject matter became more broad right? And then that's also they they offset the cost because of advertising they figured that out. Like oh we'll just put advertising it and we'll knock the cost down then anybody can read it and then that exploded apparently the kind of the celebrity culture world at that time thoughts.
38:21.58
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, um, you know I struggle sometimes with the cult of celebrity because it's changed so much.
38:31.71
jeffwatson
Ah.
38:40.95
Jeremy Helligar
From the in the in the 90 s in in the early 90 s when I started at people magazine. It was a lot different than it is now you know for 1 thing back then you didn't have reality Tv and you know you mentioned Lord Byron you know from the.
38:51.22
jeffwatson
True.
38:59.24
Jeremy Helligar
Earliest is like I love watching documentaries and I what I watched 1 documentary documentary on UlyssesS grant when they talked about how in the days after the civil war UlyssesSGrant
39:02.30
jeffwatson
Ah.
39:17.25
Jeremy Helligar
Was the most famous man in America like he was beloved. He was absolutely beloved. He was a celebrity and we know he was a celebrity because he was the general the union general who basically won the war in the 90 s.
39:30.87
jeffwatson
Right? so.
39:36.42
Jeremy Helligar
When I started at people Magazine celebrities were celebrities for a reason because they were great actors or there were great singers or they wrote a great book and now.
39:41.42
jeffwatson
Um, reach amen.
39:54.57
Jeremy Helligar
I turn on the tv and there's just all of these, especially you know, watching on Tlc you have these shows like sister wives and welcome to Plaville when you have people who.
40:02.22
jeffwatson
Yes, Uncle. So.
40:12.88
Jeremy Helligar
Ah, celebrities because they're on Tv.
40:14.37
jeffwatson
And they're also and I'm just gonna say this out loud I don't care. They're terrible. Let just move oh matter of fact, in fact, I call that subtraction Tv.
40:20.75
Jeremy Helligar
They're not creating anything. They're not doing anything and yeah and and I watch an episode ah of um I watched the kardashians when Kim Kardashian talks about how. I guess I mean she does do a lot of good social work that I don't think she gets attention for but um, she was talking I think she was kind of trying to justify her celebrity.
40:43.72
jeffwatson
I agree I.
40:53.91
Jeremy Helligar
By talking about the dress she wore to the met gala it was I guess an a dress that Marilyn Monroe had worn decades ago and she basically starved herself in order to fit into this dress and she was talking about fitting into this dress.
41:00.36
jeffwatson
Go.
41:12.89
Jeremy Helligar
Like it was and the process of starving herself to fit into it like it was a creative process and finally wearing the dress and being photographed in the dress was the finished work of art and.
41:26.35
jeffwatson
Um, how yeah, ah.
41:28.77
Jeremy Helligar
I was watching this and thinking is this what it's come to is this what it's come to.
41:35.20
jeffwatson
Ah, yeah, at guess and let's think about this for just a heartbeat Jonas Salk you know him what guy because you're a smart guy. He was a rock star he was. He was basically a rock star back then because you know he saved.
41:42.90
Jeremy Helligar
Yes, yes.
41:53.44
jeffwatson
Many many people and by the way you do know the story about him giving the money away right? So he's my hero. He will all I'm the president of that guy's fan club for life. But that was a celebrity back then can you a fauci is is a security detail for God's sakes.
41:56.97
Jeremy Helligar
A.
42:12.80
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah.
42:13.90
jeffwatson
You know it's just it's just heartbreaking. But I really thought it was interesting though about the cult because I agree with you that that that celebrity dumb has changed dramatically.
42:26.21
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, and it's it's sad because I get a little bit nostalgic for the old day and I feel like an old fart. You know this old guy who gets nostalgic for the 90 s the eighty s the seventy s because.
42:34.63
jeffwatson
Um, me too point. Sure.
42:44.55
Jeremy Helligar
Things you know and there are still people creating great art Now there are still great musicians now but I feel that that it's been so corrupted by the reality stores and by the people who become.
42:49.59
jeffwatson
Um, or So. Oh corrupt.
43:03.20
Jeremy Helligar
Youtube Famous So social media famous So ticktock famous The fact that a guy can become a star on ticktock because he's writing his skateboard around town to a fletwood max song. It makes me sad. It makes me sad because.
43:05.67
jeffwatson
Yeah, yeah, healthy. Yeah.
43:22.42
Jeremy Helligar
Why are people why do people care Why are people looking at this video Why is that resonating with people.
43:27.37
jeffwatson
Yeah, well and you know another thing too is that you know musicians these days I mean I got out of the business kind of when Tiktok started to take off I guess but.
43:40.63
Jeremy Helligar
I.
43:41.31
jeffwatson
Every marketing plan has a thing to every band I'm sure it says do a tickok video and what that means is you got about 20 minutes or 20 seconds let's say to do something crazy and wild and wacky and like you just wrote a song about death and suicide and I got to be doing this. You know it.
43:54.88
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah, you know I actually just wrote a block to a blog post on Kate Bush and you know she's been. She's had this resurgent success with running up that hell.
43:59.60
jeffwatson
Really sucks to life in this stuff.
44:04.92
jeffwatson
Um, yes, yes, yes.
44:13.71
Jeremy Helligar
I've been a Kate Bush fan since the 80 s I remember when running up that Hill debuted on american top 40 in 1985 and being so excited. Don't with Peter Gabriel and I just.
44:16.80
jeffwatson
Yes, wait wait wait. Don't give up Peter Gabriel oh boom oh I
44:31.44
Jeremy Helligar
The article is you know the article is called Kate Bush's running up that hell problem and the reason to call it a problem is because in the United States even before this song became a top 5 success. She was a one hit wonder because running up that hill.
44:35.69
jeffwatson
Um, nice.
44:50.35
Jeremy Helligar
Which only picked up number thirty and nineteen eighty five you know was her only top 40 hit and here we are thirty seven years later and the same song is a hit a bigger hit than ever.
44:51.80
jeffwatson
Ah, ah, interesting that.
45:03.89
jeffwatson
Um, true.
45:06.19
Jeremy Helligar
But it's still her only top 40 head. She's still a one hit wonder and it makes me so sad that people will never discover what an amazing talent she is. She's been nominated 3 times for the rock roll hall of fame.
45:08.20
jeffwatson
Wave. Um, yeah.
45:22.16
jeffwatson
Ah.
45:24.40
Jeremy Helligar
She still hasn't been inducted and I think if stranger things had used a different song if they had used babushka or Wow or under eyes or don't give up or don't give up.
45:33.50
jeffwatson
Um, yeah, oh my God yeah.
45:44.33
Jeremy Helligar
Maybe Kate Bush would now be a 2 hit wonder and she wouldn't have that stamp of one hit. Wonder.
45:49.80
jeffwatson
Well, you know you're right Actually I just realized don't give up as a sink dream If if there's any licensers out there. A little tip for the hat here. Go get that song through.
45:59.11
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, it's an amazing song but an only peak that like number 72 you know Kate Bush had a couple of hits bigots in the u k but she never really had that success in the United States and I'm so happy that people are discovering that song.
46:03.52
jeffwatson
Add to crime.
46:15.10
jeffwatson
Um, ah, ah fuck. So I know I know.
46:18.55
Jeremy Helligar
But I'm a little bit sad that it took a Netflix Tv series for people to discover it and I'm a little bit sad that they probably won't discover the rest of the catalog unless stranger things. Like picks up another one of her songs.
46:36.60
jeffwatson
Yeah, but not gonna happen of course so how but last is one last thing on this topic I'm just getting this I'm remembering so well the video of the of that 2 of them in that don't give up video where all they're doing is holding it for fucking 5 minutes it's it
46:48.81
Jeremy Helligar
Um, hugging yes Yes, yeah, yeah.
46:55.87
jeffwatson
Imagine the that one like the with the 1 sheet. Okay Kate Bush you're just gonna be basically ah hugging Peter Gabriel for about 5 minutes camera's gonna kind of spin around and we're good done. God is incredible I okay so god what a fantastic conversation I'm gonna wrap this up.
47:03.97
Jeremy Helligar
But it's such a memorable video.
47:13.97
jeffwatson
And only be respectful of your time and here's how I like to do this as a creative as I like to say or writer or how do you want to phrase this when do you know that you're done.
47:27.27
Jeremy Helligar
I've read you know a few um years ago I was at the Picasso Museum in Paris and I remember seeing a statement by Picasso where he talked about how a work of art is never done like it. You're always working to make it better like a true artist is always working to make it better and a little bit later I saw a cure a court by Kanye West where he was basically saying the same thing and I really agree with that I I feel like. There's a point where I think that something that I've written is ready. You know one of the first things I do when I think it's done is I'll read it to my husband and then after I read it to him I'll revise it a little bit more and there's a certain point where I know.
48:14.67
jeffwatson
Ah.
48:23.77
Jeremy Helligar
That it's ready to present to the world. But I'm an obsessive obsessive obsessive editor and I'm constantly going back and fine tuning and updating. So even the Kate Bush story that I posted yesterday.
48:33.28
jeffwatson
A.
48:43.87
Jeremy Helligar
That's cam from a Kate Bush story that I posted a few weeks ago that I was never happy with I was never happy with and so it had been in the back of my mind thinking how can I make this better and yesterday.
48:53.67
jeffwatson
Huh.
49:01.75
Jeremy Helligar
I Woke up at like two a M and I figured out how to make it better which I did and I'm finally happy with it and I'm finally happy with it. But I don't know that I'm done with it. So I think there's a.
49:05.18
jeffwatson
Um, which I Wow yeah you.
49:17.50
Jeremy Helligar
I Think you're never done I think there's a moment when you're satisfied perhaps but you're never done. You're never done.
49:21.64
jeffwatson
Okay. This is that's me I have 2 basically here's a deal I basically have None questions on this goddam show. One was the first one about the inspiration stuff and then that was the other one ask everybody the same question because I get these just wealth of information. It's like for me, it's amazing to kind of sit back and be a spectator to the question. The answer I guess because everyone kind of chops it up a little differently but they all kind of same thing and I'm starting to ask this question also quite frankly, just so I can kind of get a better understanding of really that whole concept and you know you hear things like you know, a great work of art is it just abandoned you know, um, or.
49:48.45
Jeremy Helligar
A.
50:05.90
jeffwatson
Thing you were talking about about ads just it's just done and I love it. So thank you for giving me that information. So to sum this show up. We're going to do a little thing. A little tradition I like to do on the old show here. We're Goingnna pretend to say goodbye I'm going to say goodbye you're going to say goodbye and then we're gonna.
50:10.63
Jeremy Helligar
Um.
50:16.34
Jeremy Helligar
Um, ah.
50:23.86
jeffwatson
Pretend to hang up and then we'll chat for about a couple minutes after say goodbye officially deal and fantastic None we go off to the races ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for getting to the end of the congratulations. This is the end I want to see Jeremy thank you so much for this conversation I have had a blast.
50:26.73
Jeremy Helligar
That sounds great.
50:42.28
Jeremy Helligar
Um.
50:42.84
jeffwatson
You are my like you like my brother now especially if the fact that we were talking about Kate Bush for a while I good you by guy. So thank you for doing it your turn.
50:47.13
Jeremy Helligar
Ah, you're very welcome I Really enjoyed this discussion and um, I'm so glad. To find out that our musical tastes are so closely aligned.
51:07.66
jeffwatson
That's always the best part and we're going to hang up 3 2 quote unquote hang on three g 1 click.
jeffwatson
Well hello everybody on the inspired minds podcast you dazzled throng, please welcome the lovely and talented Jeremy Heller Heagur god I screwed that up in the beginning how you doing how's that for an intro hu pretty good.
00:11.40
Jeremy Helligar
Hey job and.
00:19.10
jeffwatson
Out of the gate. Thank you So very very much for doing this Jeremy and on you, there's a lot of stuff I want to get into um but the None question that I always ask on this podcast is the exact same and that is the following when you were young. What was the None thing that you can remember that inspired you when you were a kid. Was it a song or was it a book or a show. Go.
00:41.70
Jeremy Helligar
I remember when I was in fifth grade I my teacher used to have auctions and um, we would like raise money over the course of a term and at the end of the term he would like use the money we raised. To buy all of these things that we would bid on at the auction and I won a transistor radio and I remember going home and being that radio was attached to my air for months and I remember going home.
01:07.16
jeffwatson
Um, who.
01:18.73
Jeremy Helligar
And just laying lying in bed with the chanceistor radio up to my air listening to the latest to the like most popular country music and pop radio stations because those were the two forms of music that I grew up with and that just sort of.
01:32.34
jeffwatson
Ah.
01:37.78
Jeremy Helligar
I mean I always was a fan of music. But I think that turned me into something more than a fan I became a bit obsessed and then in later years I married my obsession with music with my love of writing.
01:44.69
jeffwatson
Oh.
01:56.57
Jeremy Helligar
And my talent for writing and kind of turned that into a career eventually as a music journalist.
02:03.99
jeffwatson
Yes, and you have answered the second part of my question already congratulations because part B the follow up model the follow up to all that is just what you said I ask what? Okay how did that inspire you to get where you are right? like what's the through line and.
02:08.66
Jeremy Helligar
Um, a None
02:18.19
Jeremy Helligar
Well, it's really funny because my mother if you meet my mom. She always tells the story about how when I was about ten ten Eleven I walked up to her one day and I said mom I want to be a walk journalist. And she'll say I had no idea what that was but I knew that he could do it. So I guess maybe subconsciously I was probably trying to prove it to my mother that I could do it.
02:42.32
jeffwatson
Oh how sweet.
02:52.11
jeffwatson
Um, yeah, yeah, that as you're as a therapist that sounds about right, but that is that is just an absolutely wonderful thing and I have to ask is now I've got this like visual memory of you holding a transosor radio in bed.
02:56.84
Jeremy Helligar
Um.
03:08.66
jeffwatson
And listening So what were the songs that you can remember do you remember any.
03:10.48
Jeremy Helligar
Well, it would it would have been around 1980 so in 19 I think the big hits around that time were probably songs like I remember the None episode.
03:16.46
jeffwatson
Ah.
03:27.93
Jeremy Helligar
Of Casey Ksum's american top 40 that I ever listened to the number 1 song was magic by Olivia Newton John yeah and I remember coming up by Paul Mccartney it's still rock and roll to me by Billy Joel
03:30.46
jeffwatson
Small right. Um, oh you Newton John that's a good song that was bad. Um, yep.
03:47.41
Jeremy Helligar
The stars on 45 medley betty did his eyes those were all hits around that time. Yeah, and I just thought I was the coolest person because I was listening to the coolest music.
03:48.26
jeffwatson
Um, Heart Sun wait a minute wait a minute back. Wow stars on 45 Keep bunter books in Big. Yes, you were absolutely where and before I close before I move on here I Got to say I just had this sense memory of about that same age by the way because you and I are essentially you same age-ishsh and it seems and I remember.
04:07.20
Jeremy Helligar
And.
04:19.14
jeffwatson
Listening to I wouldn't go to bed I just remember this I wouldn't go to sleep until I heard Africa by toto on the local radio station. So I'd stay up like for an hour sometimes waiting for it.
04:26.70
Jeremy Helligar
Oh my godness Africa you know what? the Africa hit number one. The only number one hit but I always liked Rosanne Better rosanna rosesanna I liked Roseanna better.
04:38.13
jeffwatson
That's a way better song way better way better the and time but it goes the jazz like as section at the end Steve.
04:46.45
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, so good if I so good but to only hit number 2
04:52.89
jeffwatson
Wow they screwed up obviously so wow, it's you know? and and as you know it's 6 15 a m my time and I'm already talking about toto I'm good. Um, so let's kind of move on here a little bit. Ah your your story is absolutely fascinating to me and there's a lot of stuff I want to kind of cover.
05:02.20
Jeremy Helligar
And.
05:12.48
jeffwatson
But it seems that you started your professional gig. Basically at people where you are the executive editor as an intern like right out of college.
05:19.74
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, it was really interesting because at the end of college I was a little bit nervous because I wanted an internship and it was down to the wire and I hadn't gotten one yet. So. We had I had gone to a school fair with the national association of black journalists and I had met None of the top editors at time magazine which was owned by the same company as people magazine and I sent him a letter. Saying you know I met you at the conference I'm about to graduate and I'm wondering. Is there an internship that might be available for me and he actually remembered me and was so impressed that he passed my material. Along to people magazine and people magazine actually ended up reaching out to me and to be honest I was a little bit angry because to me people. Magazine I was a little snobby people. Magazine was my mom's magazine. You know I was young a young kid.
06:11.46
jeffwatson
Ah.
06:19.38
jeffwatson
Um, ah.
06:25.54
jeffwatson
Um, right.
06:31.17
Jeremy Helligar
I didn't want to work for my mom's magazine. So I kind of went into it thinking? Oh my god they're going to fly me up to New York they're going to put me up in a nice hotel. They're going to interview me for an internship I'll do it but I'm doing it mostly because I want to go to New York
06:31.58
jeffwatson
Are.
06:50.47
Jeremy Helligar
So once I came up and met everyone by the time I left New York I really really wanted it and I remember um I remember that? Um, although I really wanted it I still had reservations about the magazine just because. It was about celebrities. It was a magazine that my mother loved but before graduation I got an internship at the Charlotte observer in North Carolina and I remember going up to Charlotte working there for the summer for three months
07:12.47
jeffwatson
Um.
07:18.86
jeffwatson
But yeah.
07:26.43
Jeremy Helligar
And toward the end of my time there when I was about to come to New York for people magazine a friend of mine from college visited me and we were out at a bar one night and I was talking to him about the people magazine internship and a woman. Overheard us at the bar and she comes over and she goes what you're going to be working at people Maxine. That's the kind of thing that people spend their entire careers working towards and you're starting there so when she said that to me I realized.
07:56.95
jeffwatson
Oh yeah.
08:02.74
Jeremy Helligar
That I had to count my blessings that this was a really great great thing and that's when I really decided I was going to do the best job of my life at people magazine.
08:12.27
jeffwatson
Talk about a through line right? I mean that's unbelievable. That's like the stories of you hear about you know Studio executives who are at the they're the meo guy in the beginning and then they kind of stay at the same company. It's amazing and now. The question I got for you is that when you were younger and doing that intern kind of writing what kind of writing were you doing.
08:32.21
Jeremy Helligar
Well I started off as a fact checker as an intern. What interns did back back then were there were basically fact checkers so I had to really fight to be able to start doing music reviews.
08:36.35
jeffwatson
Um, ah.
08:41.77
jeffwatson
Um, or.
08:51.41
Jeremy Helligar
And from that I started I was able to start doing writing regular stories and they eventually promoted me to staff writer but I have to say I left the magazine for more than 20 years and I came back last year as executive editor.
09:02.87
jeffwatson
Right.
09:09.11
jeffwatson
Um, yeah.
09:11.16
Jeremy Helligar
So you know there were like so many things so many different magazines so many different countries happened between my None stint at people and my current stint at people.
09:21.41
jeffwatson
Of course and clearly you've learned a lot and that's where but I got to ask actually about the music review thing because you know I'm ah a clearly I'm a music nerd. Youre a music nerd and so when you were writing the ah the music reviews. What are some of the. We're talking like probably what 1985 maybe really funny. Sorry, okay, so ah, I'm trying to get ah an understanding of some of the band you wrote about.
09:40.50
Jeremy Helligar
No, no, no, this was an early 90 s yeah okay, the very None music review that I did for people magazine was on an album by a band called.
09:57.34
jeffwatson
The shaman but it's ah okay.
09:57.77
Jeremy Helligar
Shaman Yeah, and and I remember some of the early reviews I did a review of inexcees Album Welcome to wherever you are I did a review of an album by hot House flowers called.
10:08.38
jeffwatson
Ah.
10:16.61
jeffwatson
Yeah, don't go was there a hit I think right.
10:17.23
Jeremy Helligar
Songs from the ran. Yeah, but don't go I built don't go was from their previous album. Um, and um, who else did I review. Wow I also did reviews for entertainment weekly I remember reviewing um do drops in the sunshine by delight I reviewed wow wow It's so weird I'm blanking all of a sudden.
10:37.36
jeffwatson
So.
10:45.40
jeffwatson
And.
10:47.51
Jeremy Helligar
I remember I remember I reviewed David bowys outside album and I also got to interview David Bowie None which was kind of my claim to fame that was my claim to Fa.
10:54.34
jeffwatson
Um, yeah I've noticed. Yeah I Yeah my next question I've already did are we ahead of you. My new friend so I have a specific question about that and I think it's a general question but using bowie is kind of a lens. So.
11:06.50
Jeremy Helligar
Ah.
11:14.28
jeffwatson
As I mentioned earlier you I used to work at Wonderbos Records and you know you meet everybody as you clearly you've met pretty much everybody or at least you understand that that world of like you know celebrity. So when I um so I always kept everything I kept my excitement dialed down as much as possible when I whenever I was around an artist because I didn't want to geek out.
11:21.48
Jeremy Helligar
Yes.
11:33.80
jeffwatson
You know make it uncomfortable. We get business and such but it's hard to hide that. But when I none met Neil young I lost my mind I mean I just went I was babbling I was like oh my god tran is the greatest rickard the you after the gold rush is the greatestest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. It just like 30 seconds of that and he literally stopped me and he said is on the phone. He goes. Yeah I ain't anyway kid he like moved on right? So my question is do do a geek out.
11:59.73
Jeremy Helligar
You know I geek out in my head. My favorite singer solo singer of all time is Tammy Wineette Tammy when that and I remember when the None time I interviewed I actually interviewed her solo onces.
12:07.59
jeffwatson
Ah, me too continue. Yeah.
12:18.44
Jeremy Helligar
And I interviewed her and George Jones on the phone once the first time I interviewed her she rings me up and I pick up the phone and she goes hey Jeremy it's tammy when that like it's just something that happens every day.
12:18.93
jeffwatson
Um, um.
12:36.28
Jeremy Helligar
And it was so hard for me not to geek out but I didn't write the key I The thing that I always did when I interviewed musicians was I didn't geek out but the way that I made them feel at ease.
12:38.96
jeffwatson
Um, yeah, yet.
12:49.55
jeffwatson
Ah.
12:51.73
Jeremy Helligar
Was by bringing up something really or can about their career like with Tammy I talked to her about being a little kid and watching her on he ha singing womanhood which was a 1978 hit but not 1 of her better known songs.
13:02.50
jeffwatson
Um, um, yeah.
13:11.80
Jeremy Helligar
And the fact that I knew that song really impressed her and it put her immediately at ease and years later when I met Bono I met Bono at the Chateau Mamont in front of the elevator and at the time the album all that you can't leave.
13:21.35
jeffwatson
Awkward. But.
13:28.96
jeffwatson
Right.
13:29.48
Jeremy Helligar
Behind was out and I told him you know what my favorite song that album was is in a little while and his jaw dropped to the floor and it was like really he said there is a special club of people with good taste of music.
13:40.70
jeffwatson
Or.
13:47.83
Jeremy Helligar
Who count that among their favorite songs. So I I found over my career that the best way to really break the eyes and make a musician feel at ease was by knowing their music inside and out and then sort of dropping. Ah, comment about None of their tracks that no one else would ever mention and that a and that was always sort of the way in.
14:09.73
jeffwatson
Ah, a hu I have to good. And that's absolutely what I do actually could be honest. Well I'm not kidding on this show. This is exactly what I do and here's a good example I interviewed the editor of all of the Pa de palma movies. All of them.
14:22.86
Jeremy Helligar
Ah.
14:36.60
jeffwatson
Ah, you know Carrie and this he did star wars empire strikes back John Hughes wife of pi like he's guy named about Paul Hirsch right I didn't but star wars or empire strikes back I ended up asking him about this super obscure film. He made with de palma called a fan with a paradise back in the mid seventy s. And he he lit up like a Christmas tree.
14:55.25
Jeremy Helligar
Because people I think I you know everyone is going to compliment them on certain things. But I think if there's something that's under appreciated, especially if it's something that they're really proud of.
15:03.54
jeffwatson
So.
15:13.20
Jeremy Helligar
They'll really really appreciate The fact that you appreciate it.
15:18.64
jeffwatson
Right? right? because it's a binding agent I've heard this term recently then and I just love it that music and art but music is a binding agent and.
15:26.73
Jeremy Helligar
Um, yeah, and and it made me feel so good because Bono is someone that I grew up really respecting.
15:39.81
jeffwatson
Who.
15:42.20
Jeremy Helligar
And for him to sort of put me in the category of people with really great taste in music because of something I said about this kind of obscure track on a pretty big album made me feel really really important.
15:57.12
jeffwatson
Um, of course it did of course? Well what a lovely absolutely lovely story I love these kind of things and so speaking of stories as I for a seg speaking of stories you. So I really want to talk about your ah your book specifically storms in America or storms in Africa rather and um I don't have is it true. What they say ah black about black men and so these are travel logs as I understand it from what I saw and I just think really wonderful concept.
16:26.98
Jeremy Helligar
Yes, 1
16:31.22
jeffwatson
Kind of bookend some of these experiences with these books I guess literally can you tell me a little bit about the books. But more importantly, what you've really learned from all those experiences I'm a fan of finding out what people learned.
16:40.83
Jeremy Helligar
Well, you know it's interesting because um I was a writer and an editor for many years in New York and I think I did it because. I thought I was good at it but not because I loved it and it wasn't until I remember the none place I moved when when I left New York in 2006 was Buenos Aires
16:58.60
jeffwatson
Ah. M.
17:12.42
jeffwatson
A.
17:14.69
Jeremy Helligar
And I remember meeting someone who told me you know? yeah and you know for the first year or maybe 2 years I didn't write anything I was so burned burnt out from 15 years in New York city I was burnt out and I just sort of like partyed and hung out.
17:22.25
jeffwatson
And.
17:33.27
Jeremy Helligar
For a couple of years and I remember writing some I remember meeting someone who suggested that I do a blog. He said it'll be something that's fun. It'll be a way to document your experiences think of it sort of like a diary. And you won't have the pressure of deadlines or having to please anyone and I thought it sounded interesting and I said you know what I'm going to do it and I started a blog called theme for great cities where I started writing about my experiences as a gay black man.
18:09.88
jeffwatson
Um.
18:10.78
Jeremy Helligar
And Brenos airs and that's when I started to love writing for the none time because I wasn't doing it for money I was doing it for love of the game and I wasn't I wasn't taking on assignments. I was writing about things that were important to me whether it was a where date or a strange encounter or just something that was on my mind and that sort of evolved into my writing about. Ah, doing a lot of writing about sex about my sexual orientation and about race the racism that I experienced and it sort of changed my whole approach to writing and.
18:50.20
jeffwatson
Forever.
19:02.42
Jeremy Helligar
I ended up living in several different countries I lived in Bangkok for a while I lived in um Australia for a lot for a while I lived in cape town for a while and I remember when I was living in Thailand I was talking to my best friend and my best friend was saying you know. You have this with your blog. You have all of these blog entries. You know I would have people in foreign countries who recognized who would see me in public and would recognize me from my picture on my blog and approach me and say oh my god I love your blog.
19:39.10
jeffwatson
Wow cool.
19:41.53
Jeremy Helligar
Which to me it's crazy. You know I met a guy in breno service that way I met a guy in Berlin that way which I thought was crazy like how is this blog that I'm doing on my couch reaching people around the world. But um.
19:49.73
jeffwatson
Yeah, yeah.
19:59.60
Jeremy Helligar
My best friend Laurie she said you know you really ought to consider writing a book. So my none book was actually an extension of my blog where I took blog posts that I had written. And sort of revise them and beef them up and turn them into chapters and so the book was sort of about my experiences as a fish out of water living in Australia. Living in Thailand living in Buenos Aires and that book is a true what to say about black black men was like largely about my outward experiences. You know what I experience you know, funny anecdotes falling in. Love.
20:34.80
jeffwatson
Um.
20:47.20
Jeremy Helligar
In Australia with the guy that I'm now married to um that was the first book the second book storms in Africa was about the year that I spent living in Cape town and that was more of an internal experience and that book is more about what I learned.
20:50.84
jeffwatson
Congratulations.
21:06.32
Jeremy Helligar
On the inside and I think that the big the the greatest thing I learned from not only doing the books but from living in foreign countries where I often didn't speak the language where I was the underdog I mean I've always been the underdog as a gay black black man.
21:23.68
jeffwatson
Work.
21:26.16
Jeremy Helligar
But living in a place where you don't speak the language and you don't have a passport makes you very vulnerable and I think it taught me a kind of humility that.
21:35.45
jeffwatson
Putin.
21:43.68
Jeremy Helligar
I didn't know before and an appreciation for people from all walks of life. So I reached a point where I the the woman or the man cleaning the toilet at a hotel or at a restaurant. I approached with the same respect that I would approach the president of a company because to me they were all doing really important important work.
22:09.20
jeffwatson
And you. Right? right? Take Yes, if I can if I can get like a little underline right? There ladies and gentlemen think of visualization of what he just said I'm gonna underline it. It's correct.
22:25.96
Jeremy Helligar
So I think I think like learning that humility it changed me as a person and it turned me into a much more God I Want to use to write words here I think it turned me into a much more.
22:44.73
jeffwatson
A.
22:45.40
Jeremy Helligar
Open person. It turned me into a much more accepting person and it turned me into someone who doesn't take myself as seriously. Although from my writing people might think oh Jeremy you take yourself away seriously but I really don't I mean come compared to who I was when I was living in New York I really I've I've I've really become a much more humble modest person than I was.
23:07.37
jeffwatson
Sure, Yeah, okay.
23:21.10
jeffwatson
I Well I from where I'm sitting standing Honestly currently it sounds That's like that's correct. Um, because yeah when I here's what I think honestly very I've.
23:21.18
Jeremy Helligar
And my previous life I'd like to thank at least.
23:35.55
jeffwatson
Ah, similar story in terms of just I like mentioned earlier about bouncing around the world and I went to work at an orphanage in Cambodia and bunch stuff and I think the thing that really kind of to be honest with you pulled me out of some darkness was just this connection because I've been saying this for a while that we we're in a pandemic of disconnection now you know and. Way to get out of all that is to I don't know g connect and when I started to travel I had the same experience. It was that empathy. It was that kind of you. What's important so it. That's a wonder. Um.
24:00.40
Jeremy Helligar
Oh.
24:10.54
jeffwatson
I have other questions I can't wait for this one. This is going to be a fun one I think find out what happens I not fun. Let's just see where this goes I read a review that you had done on the show Fire Island on huluop pretty well and and I'm going to quote use some lines and then we're going to discuss them.
24:21.51
Jeremy Helligar
To her.
24:28.29
jeffwatson
I was singing when I freed you but my pride was just a veil I pretended not to need you now my heart tells a different tale from hearts in armor by Tricia Yerewood and you had you wrote this and I think this is so wonderful. Hearts in armor those 3 little words for me so perfectly captured the essence of love that dare not speak his name and that this concept of people have to protect their hearts by building fortresses around them and it thought and when I saw hearts in armor just like you did I was kind of taken aback. But a phrase.
25:02.79
Jeremy Helligar
I'll never forget when Trisha Yawood released that album and that title it stuck with me for months and it kept going around and round in my head and I kept thinking I wish I had come up with that phrase. I need to find some way to pay tribute to that amazing album title at some point it took me nearly thirty years but I feel it's something we all do and you know I met my husband in 2010 and we dated for several years split up for like 6 years and then got back together in 2019 and we're now married and I think the reason why we were able to get back together in 2019.
25:48.67
jeffwatson
Raja.
25:55.98
Jeremy Helligar
Was because I broke the armor that was around my heart and I decided that I was going to be vulnerable because we hadn't spoken for 12 years and over those six years I had never gotten over him.
25:57.96
jeffwatson
So you.
26:13.65
Jeremy Helligar
But I was afraid to reach out because I was afraid of what of how we would respond if I reach rich we reach that I couldn't handle the idea of rejection And finally I just said screw it I'm just going to go for it which I did and.
26:17.19
jeffwatson
So.
26:31.26
jeffwatson
Oop.
26:32.90
Jeremy Helligar
He responded the way that I wanted him to but because of our history. You know it took him a while to really believe what was happening because we reconnected and everything fell into place.
26:35.80
jeffwatson
E.
26:50.31
Jeremy Helligar
But it took him a while to um, really trust in what was happening and I think the old me would have backed off and said well if he doesn't know that he wants this I'm just going to move on but I didn't I sat and I was Patient. And I said you know I'm going to let this I'm going to let what happens happen I am going to keep my heart out of arm armor put it on the line I'm going to let him know that I want this. And maybe he won't want it. Maybe he'll reject me and if he does at least I can live the rest of my life knowing that I did what I could and then I can truly move on but maybe he'll feel the same with he.
27:38.90
jeffwatson
Correct.
27:45.52
Jeremy Helligar
And it took a little while but it turned out that he did feel the same way and now we're married and living in New York City and you know everything is great and it feels like I think he had a lot of growing of he had a lot of growing to do and I think he was probably he was.
28:03.10
jeffwatson
Roots.
28:04.73
Jeremy Helligar
On a very similar trajectory that I was on learning to be vulnerable and learning to be open so we were like living separate lives but on similar trajectories and we came back together at the right time at the perfect time at the time when.
28:08.74
jeffwatson
Oh.
28:24.31
Jeremy Helligar
Were finally ready to be open and to risk like just being crushed and I think that's the only way that we're ever happy.
28:24.40
jeffwatson
The.
28:37.58
jeffwatson
And I love the thing that you say it's never too late to smelt the armor and open our hearts just a wonderful phrase for it Unfortunately though, if you don't smelt the armor you end up with what I'm starting to call a calcified heart right? because.
28:45.39
Jeremy Helligar
Um, yeah.
28:54.69
Jeremy Helligar
A.
28:57.29
jeffwatson
All those unresolved Traumas and all those unresolved issues. They start to calcify and then they start to stratify like any any rock is Born. You know that way with stratification of the calcification basically and then you need a jackhammer to get in and sometimes it doesn't work and that's why I think it's beautiful. When people open their hearts and are completely vulnerable.
29:17.62
Jeremy Helligar
I arm there's a song um a John Hyatt song that Linda wanstad covered on her. We ran album called I see blue heart and it's such a beautiful song and every time I listen to it.
29:21.61
jeffwatson
Oh.
29:35.57
Jeremy Helligar
To me. The song is almost like a cautionary tale of who I've never wanted to become someone who has been burned to the point where my heart ices over and I can't feel anymore.
29:38.00
jeffwatson
And huh.
29:48.72
jeffwatson
Yes, and yeah, right because the problem also with calcification and any of these metaphors is that essentially you're dead by that point. So you're kind of almost a zombie you know at least it's.
29:54.71
Jeremy Helligar
I Don't allow myself to feel anymore.
30:06.63
jeffwatson
Way I visualize this is that you know there's the heart The dead by that point once it's calcified that much and it's dark and you hate everything and you're afraid really what that is fraid of everything then you're kind of dead if you ask me? what.
30:17.80
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah, like life to me like life isn't worth living if you're not willing to open yourself up to pain. You can't play it safe.
30:30.90
jeffwatson
Yeah, ah absolutely and thank you for giving me that Heart's in armor song which you did inadvertently so I'm gonna go listen to it which leaves me actually off top. My head is there like a go to record that you have to kind of. Chill you out I suppose for lack of a better phrase. Mine personally is pet sounds by the beach boys. That's my when I need to when I need to get into space. That's what I go to.
30:58.31
Jeremy Helligar
Wow! Interesting question whenever I think of I have several you know Desert Island discs but when I think of the essential album that if i.
31:06.25
jeffwatson
Oh.
31:15.70
Jeremy Helligar
Could only listen to 1 album for the rest of my life. The album that always pops immediately into my head is turbulent indigo by Joni Mitchell which
31:28.50
jeffwatson
Whoa I ever I roof.
31:34.30
Jeremy Helligar
Which I actually reviewed either for people or entertainment weekly I think entertainment weekly and you know I love Joni Mitchell Blue is one of my favorite albums of all time and in the 90 s she made. Ah, she had a creative renaissance.
31:44.42
jeffwatson
Here. Yeah.
31:51.73
Jeremy Helligar
When she released this album turbulent in ago that ended up winning the grammy for best pop vocal album and it's an album that people you know people are so caught up in her classic period that I think it's overlooked but this is such a beautiful album.
31:56.19
jeffwatson
Um, sure to.
32:02.17
jeffwatson
Um, woman.
32:11.20
Jeremy Helligar
Such a beautiful album.
32:11.80
jeffwatson
It's not and it's not surprising because you know this because you're one yourself when you're an artist which you are obviously then you you have to create like so people like Joni Mitchell or Neil Young or you know the late Tom Petty or any of these people they have to create. Because otherwise they will die in my opinion you know, like real artists because they have that drive that almost they have to have that that almost with exorcism sometimes of just get this writing out of me right? Yeah I figured as much because I'm the same way quite frankly I mean I'm a musician and.
32:37.24
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah, I totally relate to that.
32:47.88
jeffwatson
I write my own thing but you know even being to be honest with even being a therapist I just started this stuff out, but it's a miracle because there is a lot of art to it somebody said actually that good therapy is 70% art 20% science and 10% luck to thought was amazing and. As such I want to talk a fool first can I really quickly tell you my amazing story about John E Marr from the smiths hey so ladies and gentlemen. There's a band called the smiths there's also a band called the cure and there's also a band called rem those are the the trifecta of Mr. Jeff Watson in about in the late eighty s.
33:12.46
Jeremy Helligar
Oh yeah, absolutely.
33:25.75
jeffwatson
Okay, or even mid 80 s and the smiths were this legendary band from the U K and started out like in the 80 s or so and there's still magical albums they broke up a long time ago and the lead singer Morrisey is famously known for being a terrible human being. But Johnny Mar I heard it as always a good guy so I met Warner Brothers about ten years ago and somebody calls me and says ah get up in my office right now it's Johnny Marty you got to get up here. He's incredibly cool and I'm like bye so I like left this meeting and went upstairs and he's there. And he was charming. Oh my god the guy was so funny. He was incredible. We were like bf f's side of the gate and I'm freaking out but here's the punchline assistant comes in and says hey does anybody want any food orders and we're going down the list and I said i' I'm gonna have a burger please and he goes don't you know meat is murder. Right? I mean it was amazing. So that's my john e mar story right.
34:19.55
Jeremy Helligar
Well, you just named my 3 favorite bands of all time number 1 the smiths number 2 the cure number 3 or EM and my musical trajectory is really weird because growing up.
34:23.24
jeffwatson
And oh I know I did my research.
34:37.47
Jeremy Helligar
As a young young kid my introduction to music was through a gospel and country because that's what my parents listened to and I think that my parents kind of thought you know we were very religious and my parents thought that country was the closest.
34:42.55
jeffwatson
Oh name I.
34:57.30
Jeremy Helligar
Form of secular music to gospel which I guess to never really listen to the lyrics and and later on I added pop music to the mix and then rock and roll and in the mid eighty s.
34:57.58
jeffwatson
Ah, hey George Jones talking about Jesus and.
35:16.92
Jeremy Helligar
I Bought the album live switch pageant by or E M and that was the beginning of my love affair with alternative music which at the time was called College rock.
35:21.14
jeffwatson
Aha yep yeah. Oh my god I a drag by the way fall on me. No I got that in my head what a song or Superman or you get ah on me oh my and ladies and gentlemen you have to go listen to our a if you've never heard it before.
35:32.67
Jeremy Helligar
Ah, amazing. Follow me is just like Amazingness amazingness.
35:43.73
jeffwatson
But because you'll understand what I got ready to say is that the bass player guy named Mike Mills is like the unsung hero in that band because because harmonies are insane. Oh god oh my god I had lunch with Peter Buck one time and that's why I actually kind of did nerd out by the way. It was also kind of.
35:50.28
Jeremy Helligar
Absolutely right? absolutely.
36:00.23
Jeremy Helligar
And I love Orm's music I loved their music all the way to the end I Even love the album around the sun which no one loved. Not even ore M and I love that album. Love that album to me the song.
36:09.50
jeffwatson
Um, now um I.
36:18.27
Jeremy Helligar
The worst joke ever is amazing. Amazing it.
36:19.67
jeffwatson
Okay I what for you buddy my new friend my new I maybe I'll go the I'm gonna get better friend. We'll see what happens. Ah, ah okay I have this is the this is the big kahuna I'm so excited for this one. So I want to talk a little bit about the cult of of celebrity throughout America specifically. Two hundred years ago so I yeah was I'm fascinated by people who were I'm fascinated by the fascination of celebrity culture right? So I know there's a lot of class fantasy that kind of goes on with that like oh look at them I am not that person I want to be that person and there's this you know that transference of that stuff. But I found something interesting. So. Didn't really know this but I guess the cult of there. The cult of celebrity kicked off kind of like in the middle like late None s with Lord Byron apparently he posted his poem. Don Juan is like massive ah bump and he was stalked and he had like groupies and it was and then it went on to this guy named Alexis Soyer who's a french cook in London. The none century. He started selling his own bottled sauces and started putting pictures of himself with his trademark red beret on the labels. So then he was a star one other the thing I think is interesting is that apparently in 11 there was a theater producer who literally said. The star system in America loom so large because americans were what he called quote an individual loving people that that was interesting but my favorite thing is because this ties into you especially when it comes to people magazine and and and many things that you've written for that apparently in the 1830 s I guess. The news decided to become more commercial so instead of doing ¢5 of paper. They narrowed it down to ah a penny a paper they were called penny papers. So everyone could read them. Not just the elite. So the subject matter became more broad right? And then that's also they they offset the cost because of advertising they figured that out. Like oh we'll just put advertising it and we'll knock the cost down then anybody can read it and then that exploded apparently the kind of the celebrity culture world at that time thoughts.
38:21.58
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, um, you know I struggle sometimes with the cult of celebrity because it's changed so much.
38:31.71
jeffwatson
Ah.
38:40.95
Jeremy Helligar
From the in the in the 90 s in in the early 90 s when I started at people magazine. It was a lot different than it is now you know for 1 thing back then you didn't have reality Tv and you know you mentioned Lord Byron you know from the.
38:51.22
jeffwatson
True.
38:59.24
Jeremy Helligar
Earliest is like I love watching documentaries and I what I watched 1 documentary documentary on UlyssesS grant when they talked about how in the days after the civil war UlyssesSGrant
39:02.30
jeffwatson
Ah.
39:17.25
Jeremy Helligar
Was the most famous man in America like he was beloved. He was absolutely beloved. He was a celebrity and we know he was a celebrity because he was the general the union general who basically won the war in the 90 s.
39:30.87
jeffwatson
Right? so.
39:36.42
Jeremy Helligar
When I started at people Magazine celebrities were celebrities for a reason because they were great actors or there were great singers or they wrote a great book and now.
39:41.42
jeffwatson
Um, reach amen.
39:54.57
Jeremy Helligar
I turn on the tv and there's just all of these, especially you know, watching on Tlc you have these shows like sister wives and welcome to Plaville when you have people who.
40:02.22
jeffwatson
Yes, Uncle. So.
40:12.88
Jeremy Helligar
Ah, celebrities because they're on Tv.
40:14.37
jeffwatson
And they're also and I'm just gonna say this out loud I don't care. They're terrible. Let just move oh matter of fact, in fact, I call that subtraction Tv.
40:20.75
Jeremy Helligar
They're not creating anything. They're not doing anything and yeah and and I watch an episode ah of um I watched the kardashians when Kim Kardashian talks about how. I guess I mean she does do a lot of good social work that I don't think she gets attention for but um, she was talking I think she was kind of trying to justify her celebrity.
40:43.72
jeffwatson
I agree I.
40:53.91
Jeremy Helligar
By talking about the dress she wore to the met gala it was I guess an a dress that Marilyn Monroe had worn decades ago and she basically starved herself in order to fit into this dress and she was talking about fitting into this dress.
41:00.36
jeffwatson
Go.
41:12.89
Jeremy Helligar
Like it was and the process of starving herself to fit into it like it was a creative process and finally wearing the dress and being photographed in the dress was the finished work of art and.
41:26.35
jeffwatson
Um, how yeah, ah.
41:28.77
Jeremy Helligar
I was watching this and thinking is this what it's come to is this what it's come to.
41:35.20
jeffwatson
Ah, yeah, at guess and let's think about this for just a heartbeat Jonas Salk you know him what guy because you're a smart guy. He was a rock star he was. He was basically a rock star back then because you know he saved.
41:42.90
Jeremy Helligar
Yes, yes.
41:53.44
jeffwatson
Many many people and by the way you do know the story about him giving the money away right? So he's my hero. He will all I'm the president of that guy's fan club for life. But that was a celebrity back then can you a fauci is is a security detail for God's sakes.
41:56.97
Jeremy Helligar
A.
42:12.80
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah.
42:13.90
jeffwatson
You know it's just it's just heartbreaking. But I really thought it was interesting though about the cult because I agree with you that that that celebrity dumb has changed dramatically.
42:26.21
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, and it's it's sad because I get a little bit nostalgic for the old day and I feel like an old fart. You know this old guy who gets nostalgic for the 90 s the eighty s the seventy s because.
42:34.63
jeffwatson
Um, me too point. Sure.
42:44.55
Jeremy Helligar
Things you know and there are still people creating great art Now there are still great musicians now but I feel that that it's been so corrupted by the reality stores and by the people who become.
42:49.59
jeffwatson
Um, or So. Oh corrupt.
43:03.20
Jeremy Helligar
Youtube Famous So social media famous So ticktock famous The fact that a guy can become a star on ticktock because he's writing his skateboard around town to a fletwood max song. It makes me sad. It makes me sad because.
43:05.67
jeffwatson
Yeah, yeah, healthy. Yeah.
43:22.42
Jeremy Helligar
Why are people why do people care Why are people looking at this video Why is that resonating with people.
43:27.37
jeffwatson
Yeah, well and you know another thing too is that you know musicians these days I mean I got out of the business kind of when Tiktok started to take off I guess but.
43:40.63
Jeremy Helligar
I.
43:41.31
jeffwatson
Every marketing plan has a thing to every band I'm sure it says do a tickok video and what that means is you got about 20 minutes or 20 seconds let's say to do something crazy and wild and wacky and like you just wrote a song about death and suicide and I got to be doing this. You know it.
43:54.88
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, yeah, you know I actually just wrote a block to a blog post on Kate Bush and you know she's been. She's had this resurgent success with running up that hell.
43:59.60
jeffwatson
Really sucks to life in this stuff.
44:04.92
jeffwatson
Um, yes, yes, yes.
44:13.71
Jeremy Helligar
I've been a Kate Bush fan since the 80 s I remember when running up that Hill debuted on american top 40 in 1985 and being so excited. Don't with Peter Gabriel and I just.
44:16.80
jeffwatson
Yes, wait wait wait. Don't give up Peter Gabriel oh boom oh I
44:31.44
Jeremy Helligar
The article is you know the article is called Kate Bush's running up that hell problem and the reason to call it a problem is because in the United States even before this song became a top 5 success. She was a one hit wonder because running up that hill.
44:35.69
jeffwatson
Um, nice.
44:50.35
Jeremy Helligar
Which only picked up number thirty and nineteen eighty five you know was her only top 40 hit and here we are thirty seven years later and the same song is a hit a bigger hit than ever.
44:51.80
jeffwatson
Ah, ah, interesting that.
45:03.89
jeffwatson
Um, true.
45:06.19
Jeremy Helligar
But it's still her only top 40 head. She's still a one hit wonder and it makes me so sad that people will never discover what an amazing talent she is. She's been nominated 3 times for the rock roll hall of fame.
45:08.20
jeffwatson
Wave. Um, yeah.
45:22.16
jeffwatson
Ah.
45:24.40
Jeremy Helligar
She still hasn't been inducted and I think if stranger things had used a different song if they had used babushka or Wow or under eyes or don't give up or don't give up.
45:33.50
jeffwatson
Um, yeah, oh my God yeah.
45:44.33
Jeremy Helligar
Maybe Kate Bush would now be a 2 hit wonder and she wouldn't have that stamp of one hit. Wonder.
45:49.80
jeffwatson
Well, you know you're right Actually I just realized don't give up as a sink dream If if there's any licensers out there. A little tip for the hat here. Go get that song through.
45:59.11
Jeremy Helligar
Yeah, it's an amazing song but an only peak that like number 72 you know Kate Bush had a couple of hits bigots in the u k but she never really had that success in the United States and I'm so happy that people are discovering that song.
46:03.52
jeffwatson
Add to crime.
46:15.10
jeffwatson
Um, ah, ah fuck. So I know I know.
46:18.55
Jeremy Helligar
But I'm a little bit sad that it took a Netflix Tv series for people to discover it and I'm a little bit sad that they probably won't discover the rest of the catalog unless stranger things. Like picks up another one of her songs.
46:36.60
jeffwatson
Yeah, but not gonna happen of course so how but last is one last thing on this topic I'm just getting this I'm remembering so well the video of the of that 2 of them in that don't give up video where all they're doing is holding it for fucking 5 minutes it's it
46:48.81
Jeremy Helligar
Um, hugging yes Yes, yeah, yeah.
46:55.87
jeffwatson
Imagine the that one like the with the 1 sheet. Okay Kate Bush you're just gonna be basically ah hugging Peter Gabriel for about 5 minutes camera's gonna kind of spin around and we're good done. God is incredible I okay so god what a fantastic conversation I'm gonna wrap this up.
47:03.97
Jeremy Helligar
But it's such a memorable video.
47:13.97
jeffwatson
And only be respectful of your time and here's how I like to do this as a creative as I like to say or writer or how do you want to phrase this when do you know that you're done.
47:27.27
Jeremy Helligar
I've read you know a few um years ago I was at the Picasso Museum in Paris and I remember seeing a statement by Picasso where he talked about how a work of art is never done like it. You're always working to make it better like a true artist is always working to make it better and a little bit later I saw a cure a court by Kanye West where he was basically saying the same thing and I really agree with that I I feel like. There's a point where I think that something that I've written is ready. You know one of the first things I do when I think it's done is I'll read it to my husband and then after I read it to him I'll revise it a little bit more and there's a certain point where I know.
48:14.67
jeffwatson
Ah.
48:23.77
Jeremy Helligar
That it's ready to present to the world. But I'm an obsessive obsessive obsessive editor and I'm constantly going back and fine tuning and updating. So even the Kate Bush story that I posted yesterday.
48:33.28
jeffwatson
A.
48:43.87
Jeremy Helligar
That's cam from a Kate Bush story that I posted a few weeks ago that I was never happy with I was never happy with and so it had been in the back of my mind thinking how can I make this better and yesterday.
48:53.67
jeffwatson
Huh.
49:01.75
Jeremy Helligar
I Woke up at like two a M and I figured out how to make it better which I did and I'm finally happy with it and I'm finally happy with it. But I don't know that I'm done with it. So I think there's a.
49:05.18
jeffwatson
Um, which I Wow yeah you.
49:17.50
Jeremy Helligar
I Think you're never done I think there's a moment when you're satisfied perhaps but you're never done. You're never done.
49:21.64
jeffwatson
Okay. This is that's me I have 2 basically here's a deal I basically have None questions on this goddam show. One was the first one about the inspiration stuff and then that was the other one ask everybody the same question because I get these just wealth of information. It's like for me, it's amazing to kind of sit back and be a spectator to the question. The answer I guess because everyone kind of chops it up a little differently but they all kind of same thing and I'm starting to ask this question also quite frankly, just so I can kind of get a better understanding of really that whole concept and you know you hear things like you know, a great work of art is it just abandoned you know, um, or.
49:48.45
Jeremy Helligar
A.
50:05.90
jeffwatson
Thing you were talking about about ads just it's just done and I love it. So thank you for giving me that information. So to sum this show up. We're going to do a little thing. A little tradition I like to do on the old show here. We're Goingnna pretend to say goodbye I'm going to say goodbye you're going to say goodbye and then we're gonna.
50:10.63
Jeremy Helligar
Um.
50:16.34
Jeremy Helligar
Um, ah.
50:23.86
jeffwatson
Pretend to hang up and then we'll chat for about a couple minutes after say goodbye officially deal and fantastic None we go off to the races ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for getting to the end of the congratulations. This is the end I want to see Jeremy thank you so much for this conversation I have had a blast.
50:26.73
Jeremy Helligar
That sounds great.
50:42.28
Jeremy Helligar
Um.
50:42.84
jeffwatson
You are my like you like my brother now especially if the fact that we were talking about Kate Bush for a while I good you by guy. So thank you for doing it your turn.
50:47.13
Jeremy Helligar
Ah, you're very welcome I Really enjoyed this discussion and um, I'm so glad. To find out that our musical tastes are so closely aligned.
51:07.66
jeffwatson
That's always the best part and we're going to hang up 3 2 quote unquote hang on three g 1 click.
