A Conversation with Beth Magnetic

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Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Ian Wilkes.
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I'm here with the delightful Mr.
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Jim Bennett.
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Hello Jim.
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Hello Ian.
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You are equally delightful, if not more so.
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Well, thank you.
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Yes, thank you.
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It's great to be with you again.
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I always love doing these podcasts again to remind our listeners that our podcast is designed to help people, support people, whether you're in the church or at the church, navigating issues and trying to find a safe space to understand and discuss and learn about some of the challenges that active members go through and postmortems go through.
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I think this is the place.
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I think we are the only true and living podcast upon the face of the whole earth.
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With which the Lord is well pleased.
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The Lord is well pleased.
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And as you know, we've had some amazing guests over the last two years.
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We're coming up in April 2025.
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I think that marks two-year milestone of the Inside Out podcast series.
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Yeah.
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And we're still going.
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And we're growing, which is exciting.
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And this week, we have a very special guest on our podcast indeed.
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We have here with us Beth.
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magnetic hello beth
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hi thanks for having me guys
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it's a real pleasure to meet with you and your last name is we've got it as magnetic and i love that name
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so i uh had a business before i came into the ex-mormon space and it was magnetic branding method and magnetic entrepreneurs and whatnot so when i got divorced i just took my business name as my stage name, basically, for all of
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us.
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I am impressed with that.
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I wish I'd have done that.
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Wilkes is a little bit boring, but I'd love to have a really cool last name.
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And hopefully that name draws or attracts good people into your
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life.
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And it doesn't attract people I'm not compatible with, so it's perfect.
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Good for you.
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Jim, we should change the last name, eh?
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If that
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attracts...
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I'm thinking Ian Electric for you, and I could be Jim Spasmodic, but that's not as exciting.
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I think people will find Ian Electric a bit shocking.
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There you go.
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A little off the nose there.
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That was my joke of the week.
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I'm here all week.
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But, Beth, it's a real delight to have you with us.
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So, as we discussed earlier, if you are comfortable, just give us a bit about your background, you know, growing up.
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your earlier years in the church, your experience in the church, and bring us up to where you are right now.
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And from that point, we will have a back and forward conversation.
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Very keen to learn a bit more about you.
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And then at some point in our conversation, we'd love to talk to you about patriarchy in the church and also talk to you about Mormon crime.
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Maybe that's the right term phrase to use.
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And specifically, if we can at least include what I would describe or use as affinity crime, something that I've had to deal with, sadly, as a bishop in a ward and on a stake presidency, we had to deal with those issues.
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And we'd love to get into that part of the conversation with you a bit later on in the podcast.
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So give us a bit of your story, your background, if you will.
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So I was born in the covenant.
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I was born in East Utah.
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And when I was two, my parents separated and I moved down to Arizona where I lived with my mom while she got her nursing degree.
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And then when I was five, they tried to get back together for a little bit and it did not work out.
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And my parents separated or divorced when I was And then within six weeks, my mom remarried, uh, in the temple to another man who was my stepdad forever.
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My mom and my stepdad are the kind of people who they were at the preparing a people event that Lori and Chad Daybell were at down here in Arizona.
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They are preppers.
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They are hardcore, uh, Chad and Lori Vallow or Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, uh, in the famous loin fire text messages between them.
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They talk about a man named Bruce Porter who was giving them the stink eye as these two married people were way too affectionate for what they should have been.
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And Bruce Porter is somebody that my parents tried to get me to go listen to when I was leaving the church.
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because he does these eight-hour seminars every Saturday explaining to you why historic issues in the church are not actually issues.
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And so anyway, I did not go down that road, but my family is very much in that crepper space where they've taken their Mormonism to a whole new tier.
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And so I grew up in a home where I was...
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definitely abused, very much isolated for long periods of time.
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As a teenager, I was homeschooled, but my parents would grab on me for a month at a time, and I would not be allowed to leave my bedroom for a month at a time except to go to the bathroom or eat or do chores.
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It was a very, you know, it was, if Ruby Frankie, if that capacity had existed it would have been very much like the frankies so anyway i experienced the radicalized but still in the church version of mormonism growing up and so lots of people who did not experience mormonism that way you know they'll be like oh no that's not true that's not that's not what we believe that's not what we do but there is certainly a a faction inside the LDS church that certainly does practice it that way.
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And so anyway, I also lived in Anchorage with my ex-husband when Israel Keyes, the serial killer, was caught and we found out that his parents were Mormon.
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And then we also were down here in Arizona when Chad and Lori were arrested and And I was in Rexburg when there was the hearing for David Kaneko, who lived with the mummified remains of his daughter and wife for years before they were discovered.
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And so I just had close proximity to a lot of crime-based issues.
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My dad that my mom separated from, they got divorced in 1993, which was the year that Jeffrey Dahmer was born.
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arrested and everything came out.
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And my dad had said that he was going to be the next Jeffrey Dahmer.
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And he would be killing my whole family and cannibalizing us and making Jeffrey Dahmer look mild was the phrase that he used.
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So I just started, yeah, as a six-year-old paying attention to crime and then thing after thing after thing in my life.
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Just made it so that it's something that's been at the forefront of my mind and just looking at why are these things happening.
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And so at one point, during Lori Daybell's trial in Idaho, I ended up...
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just doing a bunch of TikToks.
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They didn't do video of her trial.
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So I would listen to the audio and then I would report on, this is what they said in this testimony.
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This is what they said in this testimony.
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And my TikTok, you know, got 16,000 new followers in less than a week with that.
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And so then I ended up doing a good amount of content around Mormonism and crime.
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So that's where we're at.
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That's extraordinary.
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When did you, just going back to your early years in the church, you know, when you were going to the church, what was your experience with church, serving in the church, leaders of the church in your earlier years?
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I loved the church.
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I was so devoted to the church.
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I believed it heart and soul.
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I struggled to be the, you know, devout young adult that I was supposed to be, where I was an old maid because I got married at 23 instead of 18 and a half.
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And so everybody was just always kind of like, well, what's wrong with her?
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What's wrong with her, right?
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And anyway, I ended up getting married at 23.
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I had two kids while I was still in the church.
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In 2014, I read the CES letter.
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And that was when it all just came undone for me.
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I believed the church was true in the morning and then by dinner time, I was like, well, whole life is a lie.
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So then I was in a mixed faith marriage for eight years and we got divorced.
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We separated in 2022 at that point.
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And I have The two kids, I have a son who is severely disabled.
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He has autism, but he also has PANDAS, which is when strep goes to the brain.
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And there's damage to the brain and the basal ganglia.
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It causes encephalitis in the brain.
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So a lot of people will say like, oh, this is mental illness, not Mormonism.
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But as somebody who lives with and deals with mental illness uh in a profound way in my life every day and gets very ignorant to say that there we can just dismiss everything as mental illness in these cases yeah
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yeah what was it um two thoughts listening to your story is extraordinary actually and i'm so sorry you had to go through all this pain and anguish all those different experiences i Each one is a story in its own right, I'm sure.
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What was the thing, if any, was there one particular thing in the CES letter that really changed how you viewed the church and actually was the catalyst of changing your beliefs in the church?
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And the second thought I've got, question is, could you speak to the relationship between mental health and those members who absolutely commit uh with exactness and go sometimes extreme and will go above and beyond and become quite fundamentalist at times where they take everything literally very biblical old testament approach you talked about prepping you know where the church teaches some things and i think for the most part church teachers are We could argue against this, but generally on certain themes and topics can be quite moderate in my experience.
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But where members can take those seemingly moderate or intended moderate teachings and turn them into something quite extreme and the relationship between that and mental health, if that makes sense.
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So what was one thing or a couple of things or whatever it was in this that actually triggered your change in your faith?
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And the second question is, What's your thoughts and experiences and insights into the relationship between the Mormon doctrine, the culture of the church, and its impact on mental health?
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Could you speak to those two things?
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Yeah.
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So with your first question, what was it that really was the catalyst?
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So it, for me, began when I was pregnant with my daughter.
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And I...
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was sitting there thinking, if God is a perfect parent, why is it that God can't handle me being in his presence if I'm not perfect?
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And I could never imagine not wanting my child around me because of this, because she isn't perfect.
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So that began it.
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And then I was in therapy right after she was born, and my therapist handed me a book called Toxic Parents to read.
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And I ended up reading that and there was a section where they really spell out, what does an abuser do?
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And it said an abuser will control their victim down to the underwear that they're allowed to wear.
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And I immediately just started laughing because I was like, oh, so if the church was a person, they'd be abusive.
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And so I had had, you know, these kind of little experiences.
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I was going to the temple over and over and over trying to feel something and I felt nothing.
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And so all of these little things were putting cracks in my shelf.
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And then suddenly my friend posts online about how Joseph Smith practiced polyandry.
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And I go to Fair Mormon and I read Fair Mormon's explanation and I was like, huh, that's not a very good dismissal of this issue.
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And so I ended up joining the Mormon Stories podcast Facebook group.
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And somebody was mentioning the CES letter.
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And so I read the CES letter.
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In the CES letter, yes, there was the whole onslaught of thing after thing after thing.
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It's like, you might have heard of all of these things separately, but when you see them together, it's crazy.
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But the thing that really did me in was the book of Abraham, where it is...
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without question, not what Joseph Smith claimed it to be.
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And so then it just completely makes it so that it's a lot harder to believe in all of the other things that were supposedly true that he prophesied or his other translations.
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And so if his other translations aren't real, then how can we believe in the Book of Mormon?
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So yeah, so there's that.
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And then the mental health aspect.
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So when it comes to mental illness and Mormonism.
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I think that there certainly is a case to be made for does Mormonism cause mental illness?
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Perhaps.
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I think it's much more likely that people have mental illness and their mental illness latches on to some of the problematic parts of Mormonism, the authoritarian views of Mormonism, the perfect obedience.
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attitudes within Mormonism.
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I remember going to BYU-Idaho, and they had this sign that said, the spirit of Ricks is perfect obedience.
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And so when you start to look for perfect obedience and scrupulosity, people with OCD will become scrupulous, and they will try to be the perfect Mormon.
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We also talk about further light and knowledge.
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We also talk about, you know, being the best person that you can and that perfectionism We should become perfect.
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And perfect is when you're complete.
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All right.
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Well, when am I complete?
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So it's these people who are constantly searching for the next layer of Mormonism.
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Line up online, precept upon precept.
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And their mental illness latches onto it in such a dangerous way.
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So we end up having somebody.
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There is not a darn thing in Lori Vallow's story that I have not been able to find a historic or doctrinal explanation for.
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So while most people are going to read about demonic possession in the Bible and be like, okay, that's wild.
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I don't want to have anything to do with that.
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If Lori believes 100% with every fiber of her being that demonic possession is real and her son starts to have behavior issues and she goes to her doctors and there's no explanation that her doctors can give her, then she's going to start to look for other explanations for it.
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And so she started to look to energy healing and she started to look to the church and she found explanations.
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So there's no way for us to actually know this or prove this because JJ is gone, but Lori Vallow's son, he was autistic.
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And my son is also autistic.
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And he has something called PANDAS, which stands for Pediatric Acute Onset Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infection.
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So what happens is a child will contract strep, strep throat.
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And we hear all the time that like strep can turn to scarlet fever.
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It can turn to rheumatic fever, which damages the heart.
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What the AAP has only acknowledged as recently as December 16th, 2024 is that pediatric acute neuro pandas, that it can actually settle in the brain.
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Strep can settle in the brain and it can cause dramatic behavioral and mental health issues.
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It can cause psychosis and hallucinations.
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It is hugely problematic.
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And so it's estimated that by 2020, the Pandas Network and other organizations, that up to 30% of kids who have been diagnosed with autism also have pandas.
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And so it's entirely possible that JJ had this brain encephalitis that my son also has.
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So the reason that I think that this is really important to discuss is the fact that pandas historically...
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was believed to be things like demonic possession and so we have doctors the aap until december 2024 did not believe that pandas existed and so lori could have been going to doctor after doctor after doctor after doctor for like we did for five years and been told that there is absolutely nothing you know nothing wrong with jj above and beyond oh he has fetal alcohol syndrome perhaps and autism.
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And this is just autism.
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Just deal with it.
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So Lori thinking this is just autism.
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She starts to, uh, look for her.
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Her mom gut is telling her, no, this is not just autism.
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There's something above and beyond autism.
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So she looks to the sources that she has at her disposal to figure out what is going on and what's going on.
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Um, If you look at it from a religious perspective, okay, demonic possession.
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So we need to do things to cast out demons.
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We have energy work, and energy work will help me to get rid of the evil spirits because it's not just autism.
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And she knows that in her gut.
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So if we have this as just one mental illness, and then we have millions and millions of members of the church, And they are looking to priesthood blessings.
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They're looking to the scriptures.
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They're looking to church doctrine.
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They're looking to all of these other things within the church to explain these mental illnesses or make them a go away or just deal with them in any way.
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We can end up in some really dangerous scenarios.
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We also know that Ruby Frankie, she also was deciding that her children were possessed by demons.
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So this is not a one-off thing.
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And while the average person is going to look at all of this and they're not going to decide that their child's possessed, enough people are and there are incredibly dangerous outcomes.
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Or we have the Caneco family from Rexburg, Idaho, where they developed a collective psychosis together based on believing that Jesus was about to return.
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And the mother and daughter starved themselves to death.
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And then the dad lived with their bodies for a year and a half and three years.
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So these are not just like innocent little, you know, mental illness plus Mormonism is like, oh, it's a little rough.
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The church is not doing anything to make it so that we're like actually dealing with and identifying mental illness.
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they're presenting themselves as the solution and the results, it's deadly.
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You know, I'm listening to you and my heart is just breaking, especially since, I mean, I don't know if we did an episode with my son Samuel, who was a missionary and was diagnosed with scrupulosity while he was on his mission.
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I talked about things like having to He ended up talking to his therapist about the fact, his therapist said, well, maybe you should pray only two times a day instead of 15 times a day.
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And he was like, I can't do that.
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If I do that, I'm going to, you know, he had this terrible experience with a mission president that was telling him that this scandal of the MTC that he wasn't involved in.
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was enough that he had to study all these scriptures about repentance and come and talk to him every week.
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And if he didn't, you know, he would have to be sent home even though he hadn't done anything.
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And when he came home for COVID, he was out during the COVID pandemic and he came home after about seven months and he was covered from head to toe in cystic acne.
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just physically manifested itself like that.
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And he is still active in the church.
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He's a student down at BYU, but he's become a huge advocate for mental health.
00:22:59.192 --> 00:23:13.529
And the way you're talking here, I mean, I would love to have him have a conversation with you because what you're saying I think is so important because so often we conflate mental health with weakness.
00:23:14.369 --> 00:23:15.491
particularly in the church.
00:23:15.551 --> 00:23:21.920
We conflate it and we say, okay, well, if you're feeling this way, there's something wrong with you spiritually.
00:23:21.961 --> 00:23:23.542
You're just not righteous enough.
00:23:24.223 --> 00:23:26.906
And that just feeds into the scrupulosity.
00:23:27.567 --> 00:23:29.871
You know, I've told the story on this podcast too.
00:23:29.991 --> 00:23:36.119
When I was on my mission, I remember listening to a talk by Gene R.
00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:36.500
Cook.
00:23:37.102 --> 00:23:39.044
I think I've got the middle initial right.
00:23:40.006 --> 00:23:43.130
It's the same talk where he talks about sitting on an airplane with Mick Jagger.
00:23:43.746 --> 00:23:47.130
which made me come home from my mission and break all my Rolling Stones records.
00:23:48.171 --> 00:23:51.855
And when I told that to my son, he said, oh, I didn't know you had scrupulosity too.
00:23:52.916 --> 00:24:01.125
But in the same talk, he talks about, okay, I want to talk about depression and I want to talk about despair.
00:24:01.145 --> 00:24:07.053
And I went, oh, okay, this will be helpful to me because I've struggled with depression and anxiety my whole life.
00:24:07.814 --> 00:24:15.875
And in this talk, he starts talking about despair and he quotes the Book of Mormon quote, where it says, despair cometh because of iniquity.
00:24:17.278 --> 00:24:20.122
And I thought, well, that doesn't help me much.
00:24:20.182 --> 00:24:22.885
So my problem, the reason I'm depressed is because I'm wicked.
00:24:22.925 --> 00:24:34.304
And that's essentially been, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's kind of been a pervasive message over the history of the church.
00:24:34.403 --> 00:24:45.970
And it's only recently, really relatively recently that where the church has sort of started to come around to the idea that mental health is a real thing.
00:24:46.010 --> 00:24:48.032
Depression is a real thing.
00:24:48.073 --> 00:25:02.371
If you are depressed and anxious and bipolar and dealing with real genuine mental health conditions, it's not because you are wicked, but the church has never really sort of disavowed.
00:25:02.411 --> 00:25:05.394
This is the way the church deals with all of its mistakes.
00:25:05.576 --> 00:25:12.303
It just quietly changes and hopes you don't notice that the history is really quite different.
00:25:13.003 --> 00:25:25.797
And the result is that the continued influence of these past teachings that we no longer believe continue to survive and even thrive in some quarters.
00:25:26.377 --> 00:25:27.980
I mean, has that been your experience?
00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:32.684
Does that sound like something that you've encountered as you've dealt with mental health issues in the church?
00:25:33.685 --> 00:25:34.487
Absolutely.
00:25:34.606 --> 00:25:35.928
So Bruce R.
00:25:35.949 --> 00:25:37.069
McConkie in...
00:25:37.442 --> 00:25:39.224
Mormon doctrine.
00:25:39.826 --> 00:25:45.334
If you looked up psychology in the first edition of it, it said something like Satanism.
00:25:46.256 --> 00:25:55.931
It was so directly suggesting that it is a satanic thing to get help for your mental illness.
00:25:57.031 --> 00:26:07.375
And we see this in so many of these different Mormon true crime cases where somebody is having a clear-cut Mental health crisis.
00:26:08.455 --> 00:26:17.525
And instead of somebody going and checking themselves into a mental health clinic, they are locking themselves in their houses and reading more and more scriptures.
00:26:17.565 --> 00:26:19.788
They are studying more devoutly.
00:26:19.827 --> 00:26:29.958
They are making sure that they have read every single, you know, talk from general conference and they're doubling down on their belief system.
00:26:29.998 --> 00:26:34.473
Sometimes, I mean, we do see in some of these where they say, Yeah.
00:26:34.694 --> 00:26:36.217
Yeah.
00:27:03.521 --> 00:27:17.497
When I was serving as a bishop in Scotland, within a week, within the first week, two weeks, there was members coming to me with a whole range of issues and problems, mental, psychological.
00:27:17.557 --> 00:27:21.201
There was issues relating to historical sexual abuse.
00:27:21.521 --> 00:27:25.306
And as a young bishop, I was completely out of my depth.
00:27:26.707 --> 00:27:29.109
I just...
00:27:30.178 --> 00:27:43.977
I felt completely overwhelmed and frustrated that I didn't have the skills, the training, the experience to deal with, I would say, most of the issues, or many of the issues.
00:27:44.057 --> 00:27:50.105
I just didn't have the mental capacity to understand them, let alone provide some treatment.
00:27:50.184 --> 00:28:01.166
And my default was through the insufficient training that we got every three months with the state presidency, every three months the bishops meet, with the state presidency.
00:28:01.207 --> 00:28:04.832
You go through this, it's like a training meeting every three months.
00:28:05.772 --> 00:28:06.674
And these issues would come up.
00:28:06.795 --> 00:28:11.740
And the best advice I got at that time was that encourage people to pray, pray more.
00:28:13.483 --> 00:28:17.528
There was a reference to what I think Jim referenced earlier, and I was listening to that.
00:28:17.729 --> 00:28:27.863
And that's from a scripture, Moroni 10.22 in the Book of Mormon, which says, reads that despair cometh because of iniquity.
00:28:30.786 --> 00:28:40.118
and was suggested to me as a bishop that perhaps the individual is feeling this way because of the sinning and therefore call them to repentance.
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:46.126
I mean, talk about piling on additional issues and pain and anxiety.
00:28:46.207 --> 00:28:47.028
It's just extraordinary.
00:28:47.428 --> 00:28:51.794
So the default was for the, you know, back then, and I don't know how much it's changed right now.
00:28:51.834 --> 00:28:57.261
I still think the bishops, well, I know the bishops even today get very little training in this area.
00:28:57.634 --> 00:29:03.119
And even now I attempt to try to deal with these very serious mental health issues without any training.
00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:04.461
And in fact, can cause damage.
00:29:05.041 --> 00:29:11.308
I was so afraid to, and so concerned about adding to the individual's problems.
00:29:11.848 --> 00:29:22.441
The best I could do is ask them to pray fast, read the scriptures, what you were saying, kind of double down, I guess, in terms of reading church material.
00:29:23.101 --> 00:29:23.321
Yeah.
00:29:24.097 --> 00:29:45.346
And yes, I regret and I'm ashamed to say that on a couple of occasions felt inspired, putting my fingers about, to gently, I was never harsh on this, gently called a couple of people to repentance because I felt at that time through the gift of discernment, if you've heard of that.
00:29:45.926 --> 00:29:50.534
Bishop's supposed to have this gift of discernment and I thought I had the gift of discernment.
00:29:50.653 --> 00:29:53.176
In hindsight, I didn't.
00:29:53.317 --> 00:29:55.587
It was A lot of it was guesswork.
00:29:56.189 --> 00:30:04.642
And so my impressions were that if this person repents, that their mental health issues will go away because it's tied to iniquity.
00:30:05.763 --> 00:30:11.913
And it struggles so much with that in regards to church leadership.
00:30:12.074 --> 00:30:17.041
Jim's talked about the mission present there and his son going through that.
00:30:17.162 --> 00:30:22.269
And what's your thoughts and insights, experience in the lack of training that leaders have?
00:30:23.074 --> 00:30:26.938
in regards to dealing with mental health, because I've shared my experience.
00:30:26.998 --> 00:30:28.680
What's your thoughts on that, Beth?
00:30:29.461 --> 00:30:36.248
And also, could you talk to us after that a bit about your crime, Mormon crime podcast?
00:30:36.969 --> 00:30:39.892
And could we get into a little bit of the Mormon crime stuff?
00:30:39.912 --> 00:30:43.035
Because I have some insights into that as a bishop and state presidency.
00:30:44.336 --> 00:30:47.941
You know, from that perspective, Jim's probably got his thoughts and insights into that as well.
00:30:47.961 --> 00:30:49.182
It'd be good to get his insights.
00:30:49.281 --> 00:30:49.642
ideas.
00:30:50.163 --> 00:30:51.625
But if you could talk to us about that.
00:30:52.164 --> 00:30:57.250
Uh, and again, that, that component there, that patriarchy component, how that plays into as well.
00:30:57.270 --> 00:31:03.297
And again, I got a few insights into that as well from my own, my own experience as a, as a, as a Bishop and state presidency.
00:31:03.817 --> 00:31:26.854
But what's your insights, your concerns, issues in regards to leaders of the church that don't have the experience or the training vulnerable people, very vulnerable people, uh, open up their entire lives to these leaders, and often the leader can make the problem worse.
00:31:27.375 --> 00:31:30.377
Can you provide any thoughts and any recommendations?
00:31:30.417 --> 00:31:37.365
Because I believe, I can't speak for Jim, but I believe leaders of the church at a certain level listen to this podcast.
00:31:37.465 --> 00:31:37.967
I believe it.
00:31:38.027 --> 00:31:47.757
I've heard something over the last few days since Jim and I spoke where I believe that this podcast, and others, not the only one, that are being listened to by leaders.
00:31:47.836 --> 00:31:51.053
So but keep in mind that there could be church leaders listening to this.
00:31:51.532 --> 00:32:01.104
So what's your thoughts, insights, concerns, and any recommendations that you might have for leaders and how they deal with mental health?
00:32:03.066 --> 00:32:09.534
So I'm going to kind of just lead with one of my biggest concerns when it comes to this.
00:32:10.034 --> 00:32:24.352
So if somebody goes to their bishop and talks about a mental health issue that they have, currently, they are driving them to mental health professionals, but mental health professionals that are believers in the church.
00:32:24.833 --> 00:32:34.705
And so we're not going to have somebody who's scrupulous being guided or out of Mormonism if that's somewhere healthier for them to be.
00:32:34.746 --> 00:32:40.334
I actually went and I saw an LDS therapist in my process of leaving the church.
00:32:40.961 --> 00:32:47.053
And she just wanted to tell me to read a bunch of church books to deal with the things that I was having to deal with.
00:32:47.594 --> 00:33:05.885
And so until the church can drive its members somewhere where they're going to actually help them with whatever the issue is, regardless of the outcome for their activity in the church, I don't think that we can have a real, we can't actually really address that.
00:33:06.114 --> 00:34:11.030
what's happening here because somebody who is going to lock themselves in their house and starve themselves to death because they they want to sanctify and purify themselves because they know that that's what fasting does according to scripture according to prophets we can't guide that person out of the church where they might be safer or we can't guide them to a less active iteration of it we also have have people who like jim was saying your son just felt like he needed to pray more and more and more and more to deal with these things because that's what scripture said and so uh i think that the the solution of yeah we'll send you to mental health professionals who tell you to just be more devout it's not it's not a solution um I think you really highlighted some of the issues, Ian, that we're sending these people in for things that are mental health issues into bishops.
00:34:11.371 --> 00:34:15.114
And these bishops are not mental health professionals by any stretch of the imagination.
00:34:15.153 --> 00:34:19.757
They are there to facilitate and help organize and run this community.
00:34:20.137 --> 00:34:21.338
That's what they're there for.
00:34:21.739 --> 00:34:28.324
They're there to provide spiritual guidance, and we will label things as spiritual guidance that are actually mental health issues.
00:34:28.786 --> 00:34:39.114
So many of the physical health issues that are causing hormonal or other issues that present as mental health issues.
00:34:39.675 --> 00:34:53.708
So for example, my son who has an infection in his brain, or I was diagnosed with bipolar 2, but then once I got my hormones treated, turned out I produce zero testosterone.
00:34:54.168 --> 00:34:59.313
I just do not produce testosterone, DHEA, or cortisol at all.
00:34:59.938 --> 00:35:05.548
And so now that I take all of those medications, I have zero bipolar symptoms.
00:35:06.250 --> 00:35:14.226
And so it's this really interesting thing where we're labeling everything as spiritual when people might need a doctor.
00:35:14.786 --> 00:35:18.132
They might need an actual doctor to do some blood work.
00:35:18.554 --> 00:35:21.278
And that would magically make all these issues disappear.
00:35:22.561 --> 00:35:22.782
Yeah.
00:35:23.041 --> 00:35:41.543
And so until the church can admit that they are not the answer for every single thing in your life, and they start to talk about this openly, and they start to address mental health from the pulpit at general conference outright, not like the, we're going to tiptoe around it kind of thing.
00:35:41.884 --> 00:35:44.166
We're going to mention, yes, we know some people are depressed.
00:35:45.068 --> 00:35:50.510
Until they come out and they say, please, Go find a doctor and get your blood work done, right?
00:35:50.989 --> 00:35:53.373
Until we're actually doing these things, they are not doing enough.
00:35:54.414 --> 00:36:01.822
We also really need them to admit that they're not the end-all be-all.
00:36:02.764 --> 00:36:06.909
Yes, they have thought of and created so many things for community.
00:36:06.949 --> 00:36:10.954
They've created opportunities for fulfillment.
00:36:11.034 --> 00:36:14.097
They've done a lot of really wonderful things.
00:36:15.713 --> 00:36:17.817
But this is not their space.
00:36:18.918 --> 00:36:26.628
And they need to maybe just actually acknowledge that there are some mental illnesses that are going to look like things like demonic possession.
00:36:26.668 --> 00:36:38.704
And if you are seeing something that looks like demonic possession and you think that your child might be possessed, do not go looking to the story of Newell K.
00:36:38.764 --> 00:36:42.190
Whitney, who was the first miracle of the church.
00:36:42.945 --> 00:36:49.556
when Joseph Smith went to him right after the church was started, I think the same day, and cast out a demon, right?
00:36:49.976 --> 00:36:55.525
So somebody who has gone super hard into Mormonism, they've read this story about Newell K.
00:36:55.565 --> 00:36:59.851
Whitney and how he was jumping up to rafters and he was throwing people off of him.
00:36:59.891 --> 00:37:05.099
And they're like, oh my goodness, this sounds like what my child has going on.
00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:06.880
My child must have a demon.
00:37:07.342 --> 00:37:11.228
So I need to try and create the same kind of miracle that Joseph Smith did.
00:37:12.208 --> 00:37:14.190
So admitting it.
00:37:14.490 --> 00:37:16.673
Admitting the problem is a huge part of this.
00:37:18.034 --> 00:37:26.786
And then when it comes to Mormon crime, I would say the vast majority of the crazy crimes that I've been able to talk about.
00:37:26.846 --> 00:37:31.532
So I've been doing Mormon true crime on TikTok and YouTube for a couple of years.
00:37:32.052 --> 00:37:43.146
I'm actually in the process of transitioning it over to death by patriarchy so that I can expand outside of just Mormonism and talk about things like eugenics in Nazi Germany.
00:37:43.777 --> 00:38:13.425
but um and i can go ghost hunting and not have to go to a mormon location right so i'm i'm pivoting right now but for two years i have been talking about mormonism and crime some of the really interesting things that i've realized though is that a lot of people will uh immediately be like oh we don't teach that in the lds church well the lds church is not all of mormonism there are hundreds of different iterations of Mormonism out there.
00:38:14.146 --> 00:38:30.887
And even within your congregations, there could be somebody like Ruby Franke, or Chad Daybell, or Bob Birchtold, who kidnapped Jan Broberg.
00:38:31.469 --> 00:38:31.668
Well,
00:38:32.349 --> 00:38:37.295
just quickly, I worked down at Tuacon and worked with Jan Broberg.
00:38:37.335 --> 00:38:38.878
I consider her a very good friend.
00:38:39.266 --> 00:38:40.947
I consider her a very good friend.
00:38:40.967 --> 00:38:41.949
I love her.
00:38:42.349 --> 00:38:43.349
Oh, she's delightful.
00:38:43.610 --> 00:38:48.195
Is she still running the bed and breakfast in Cedar City?
00:38:49.317 --> 00:38:51.659
I don't think she's running a bed and breakfast right now.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.061
She's taking care of her mom who has Alzheimer's right
00:38:54.121 --> 00:38:54.342
now.
00:38:54.362 --> 00:38:55.063
Oh, okay.
00:38:55.543 --> 00:39:00.509
She gave me a copy of her book before it was published.
00:39:01.230 --> 00:39:02.050
Oh, I love that.
00:39:02.471 --> 00:39:03.112
I read through that.
00:39:03.132 --> 00:39:05.193
Ian, do you know the whole Jan Broberg story?
00:39:05.601 --> 00:39:06.163
Do not.
00:39:06.242 --> 00:39:08.266
No, I'm learning this.
00:39:08.365 --> 00:39:13.273
She was kidnapped by a member of her ward that was the best friend of her whole family.
00:39:13.313 --> 00:39:22.846
And he convinced her that she was an alien and that she had to have a child with him in order to repopulate another planet.
00:39:24.208 --> 00:39:26.391
And it was nuts.
00:39:27.032 --> 00:39:30.938
I mean, there's a Netflix documentary called Abducted in Plain Sight.
00:39:31.905 --> 00:39:33.809
that I recommend you go watch.
00:39:33.849 --> 00:39:35.731
And there was also a dramatization of it.
00:39:36.172 --> 00:39:37.735
What was this series called?
00:39:38.576 --> 00:39:39.958
A Friend of the Family on Peacock.
00:39:39.978 --> 00:39:40.298
A Friend of the
00:39:40.398 --> 00:39:41.239
Family, yeah.
00:39:42.001 --> 00:39:45.447
I mean, it's terrifying, and it's everything, Beth, you're talking about.
00:39:45.527 --> 00:39:54.260
It's melding all of that Mormon stuff into predatory behavior, and it's just absolutely terrifying.
00:39:55.061 --> 00:40:02.112
Yeah, and I was able to talk to Jan recently, about the Mormon aspect of it that you don't see in either of those shows.
00:40:02.733 --> 00:40:14.811
Uh, and some of the things that people don't think about is that she's this 12 year old who has been told that God lives on a planet near Kolob, that, uh, that, that there are angels and there are planets without.
00:40:14.992 --> 00:40:25.266
And, um, that, uh, you know, Jesus was basically a half human, half God, or, and we think that God is somebody who lives on another planet.
00:40:25.327 --> 00:40:30.481
So alien, uh, that was born into this world and he had to save this world.
00:40:30.541 --> 00:40:37.512
So she then is being told that she is supposed to give birth to a new Messiah for another planet.
00:40:37.891 --> 00:40:53.293
And so it does fit within this frame of Mormonism that nobody talks about because it's not the mainstream presentation of Mormonism, but the pieces and the roots for the radicalized version of Mormonism that leads to these crimes.
00:40:53.715 --> 00:40:54.155
It's there.
00:40:55.056 --> 00:40:55.998
You can find it.
00:40:56.130 --> 00:41:00.476
you can find the roots of these crimes within mainstream Mormonism.
00:41:01.556 --> 00:41:13.992
And she had told me that, you know, he would come in, Bea would come in and he would have a newspaper and it would have something about like a UFO sighting.
00:41:14.132 --> 00:41:23.344
And he would come in and in front of Jan, talk to Marianne and say something about how they're coming back for the gathering of Israel.
00:41:23.806 --> 00:41:30.715
That He started to program her that UFO sightings were confirmation of the gathering of Israel.
00:41:30.775 --> 00:41:39.184
So there's all of this religious context that, you know, you hear she started to believe that she was half alien.
00:41:39.224 --> 00:41:41.726
And you're like, okay, sure, Jan.
00:41:42.228 --> 00:41:52.538
But when you know that she actually believes the church through and through, and there are these little nuggets within Mormonism that she was able to latch onto to make it so she fully believed it.
00:41:53.730 --> 00:41:54.811
It's not so crazy.
00:41:57.195 --> 00:42:06.469
But yeah, so anyway, I've been able to identify where people either go radicalized or they go extremist or fundamentalist.
00:42:07.250 --> 00:42:12.378
And sometimes it's on the edge of some of, you know, two of those or three of those, right?
00:42:12.958 --> 00:42:20.389
But they move outside of the normal mainstream version of Mormonism without actually...
00:42:20.769 --> 00:42:22.632
leaving Mormonism, right?
00:42:22.813 --> 00:42:25.195
It's not like they're looking for something outside of Mormonism.
00:42:25.635 --> 00:42:33.547
They're looking to historic things like Brigham Young talking about how interracial couples should be killed.
00:42:34.208 --> 00:42:43.940
And so then we have a serial killer like Joseph Paul Franklin who went and killed 22 people who either supported or were in interracial relationships.
00:42:45.222 --> 00:43:04.280
And so it happens on a scale that a lot of people I don't think actually recognize, but we like to avoid talking about Mormonism's role in a lot of these cases, and we just want to act like they're crazy, even though, as far as they're concerned, they were just following the doctrine.
00:43:05.461 --> 00:43:12.168
Well, it's interesting to me when you talk about, so you're pivoting sort of away from Mormon true crime into patriarchy.
00:43:12.889 --> 00:43:13.028
Yep.
00:43:14.670 --> 00:43:16.052
Can you speak to that a little bit?
00:43:16.172 --> 00:43:25.746
I mean, because it's, It sounds like Mormonism isn't sort of uniquely suited to facilitate this kind of thinking.
00:43:26.788 --> 00:43:32.376
But maybe it's part of a broader problem of patriarchy that is sort of uniquely suited to this.
00:43:33.016 --> 00:43:36.001
Would that be an accurate description or is it something else?
00:43:37.083 --> 00:43:39.005
Yeah, I would agree that that's an accurate description.
00:43:39.025 --> 00:43:46.715
The vast, vast, vast majority of the time when a woman is murdered, it's by her partner, her male partner.
00:43:46.735 --> 00:43:47.958
And so...
00:43:48.353 --> 00:43:53.039
We see that on a grander scale in society as well.
00:43:53.679 --> 00:44:19.663
And so not to get too political or anything, but if we're thinking about what's happening with my personal take, if we think about what's happening with a lot of the laws that are changing in the United States that are harming marginalized communities, we are not having an outright euthanasia of a population.
00:44:19.724 --> 00:44:21.224
We're not having an outright genocide.
00:44:21.565 --> 00:44:26.871
But what happens when we start to pull all of the services from disabled people?
00:44:27.893 --> 00:44:32.858
We will end up having people who end up dying because they didn't have the services or medical needs met.
00:44:33.458 --> 00:44:40.827
We end up having people who are going to take their own lives because they are in such despair.
00:44:40.867 --> 00:44:43.510
We're going to have a lot more accidents.
00:44:43.751 --> 00:44:54.331
So within the of the autistic population that elopes or runs away from home, 17% of them die.
00:44:55.253 --> 00:45:03.204
And over 90% of those die from drowning because they're looking for the sensory of water.
00:45:04.005 --> 00:45:16.382
And so we're going, if these laws are not stopped, we are going to have a genocide, but it's going to be a bureaucratic genocide where people are going to die.
00:45:16.833 --> 00:45:21.398
But it's not going to be because they were put into clinics like they did in Nazi Germany.
00:45:21.438 --> 00:45:29.148
It's going to be because of society ripping away the things that make it so that these people are safe.
00:45:30.028 --> 00:45:34.815
And so we can see this happening in a patriarchal society like the United States.
00:45:34.855 --> 00:45:36.956
We can see it happening in other countries.
00:45:38.539 --> 00:45:48.601
But then we also have, just in general, the fact that so many men believe that The woman that they're married to, she is his right.
00:45:49.481 --> 00:45:57.670
And if she's going to leave him, then it is God ordained for him within whatever his religion is to take her life.
00:45:58.550 --> 00:46:06.458
And then we also just have it within medical systems where all of the studies, the vast majority of studies were done on men.
00:46:06.478 --> 00:46:13.706
And so we're treating women in their health issues based on data that is for men.
00:46:14.018 --> 00:46:23.932
And so we have women who don't know how to recognize that they're having their own, they're having a heart attack because all of the symptoms that are out there are based on men.
00:46:24.634 --> 00:46:40.197
And so just within patriarchal societies, one thing after another, after another, after another, we have a world where people are dying and are going to continue to die because they are a woman or they are a marginalized person.
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:51.275
And so I want to just be able to Talk on it and tell stories about that because I think it's incredibly important based on the state of the world right now.
00:46:52.677 --> 00:46:53.800
What is your podcast called?
00:46:55.242 --> 00:46:58.226
I just changed it over to Death by Patriarchy.
00:46:58.286 --> 00:47:09.405
You can find my original season of Mormon True Crime on podcasting platforms, but on YouTube and TikTok and whatnot, I've just changed over to Death by Patriarchy.
00:47:10.050 --> 00:47:14.134
My most popular episode on YouTube is the Elizabeth Smart episode.
00:47:14.153 --> 00:47:16.717
And it's really interesting.
00:47:16.737 --> 00:47:26.407
If you watch his interrogation right after he was arrested, somebody says one of the detectives says to him something about Mormonism.
00:47:26.867 --> 00:47:33.856
And Brian David Mitchell says, oh, the detective says, but this isn't Mormonism.
00:47:33.876 --> 00:47:37.860
And Brian David Mitchell says, if you think that, then you don't know Mormonism.
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:47.570
And The reality is that will a mentally healthy person go to Mormonism and become a prolific criminal?
00:47:48.311 --> 00:47:49.172
Probably not.
00:47:49.833 --> 00:48:06.878
But will a person who is delusional and looking for explanations or reasons for what they're experiencing in their head that's different than what everybody else is experiencing go to Mormonism and find justification for horrific crimes?
00:48:07.780 --> 00:48:08.521
They sure can.
00:48:09.250 --> 00:48:09.931
They sure can.
00:48:10.512 --> 00:48:12.617
They can with all the history and the quotes.
00:48:13.557 --> 00:48:23.317
We were saying on the last podcast, if you go back in the history of the church, the previous leaders were unafraid to make very bold black and white statements.
00:48:23.717 --> 00:48:26.764
If you marry someone who's black, then you should die on the spot kind of thing.
00:48:26.824 --> 00:48:31.452
It was just one-liners that were absolutely this or that.
00:48:32.226 --> 00:48:37.072
and just awful, awful things that were written and said by past church leaders.
00:48:37.893 --> 00:48:43.702
I found this is one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had because I'm learning so much from this.
00:48:43.762 --> 00:49:00.344
And as I'm listening, Beth, to you and to Jim, I am struck with the notion that my life, I joined the church at 16 years old and led a fairly, what I think or thought until this conversation, actually a fairly regular life in the church, nothing too...
00:49:01.505 --> 00:49:03.769
You know, nothing too extreme like what you're describing.
00:49:03.829 --> 00:49:14.347
But as I look back at my past, there are actually experiences which are quite extreme in the context of this conversation.
00:49:15.269 --> 00:49:21.501
Let me give you a quick example, which was extreme then and is extreme now.
00:49:21.601 --> 00:49:26.710
So when I was serving a mission, so Jim and I served our missions together in Scotland in the 80s.
00:49:27.266 --> 00:49:36.137
I probably wasn't worthy enough to be Jim's companion, but we served in the same district, in the same zone in Scotland.
00:49:36.978 --> 00:49:41.445
I came out just before Jim, and I served all around Scotland.
00:49:41.706 --> 00:49:53.402
One area I served in, over that two years, I had several experiences where I, at the time, understood that I was casting out evil spirits.
00:49:53.922 --> 00:49:54.663
I had one too.
00:49:55.304 --> 00:49:55.945
You had one too.
00:49:56.266 --> 00:49:58.452
I had I had a few, not many, but a few.
00:49:58.891 --> 00:50:02.054
And there's one in particular that had a profound impact on me.
00:50:02.936 --> 00:50:12.806
And by the way, when I received the priesthood, you know, when I was younger, I was bestowed with the gift of discernment.
00:50:13.668 --> 00:50:15.148
It's referenced in my patriarchal blessing.
00:50:15.590 --> 00:50:17.592
And I was bestowed with the gift of healing.
00:50:17.612 --> 00:50:23.358
I had these extraordinary powers that I believed I had because I was...
00:50:24.514 --> 00:50:25.275
Really committed.
00:50:25.655 --> 00:50:27.077
Really committed and devoted to the church.
00:50:27.978 --> 00:50:32.385
Not to the extremities that you described earlier, but very committed.
00:50:32.846 --> 00:50:35.088
So I thought I had these extraordinary gifts.
00:50:35.588 --> 00:50:39.554
And also the church says that when you have a spiritual experience, the spirit leaves a gift.
00:50:39.594 --> 00:50:40.695
There's a scripture on that, by the way.
00:50:41.317 --> 00:50:44.320
So when you have a spiritual experience, you bestow the spiritual gifts.
00:50:44.382 --> 00:50:45.143
It's in the Doctrine and Covenants.
00:50:45.422 --> 00:50:47.405
But I had these special gifts in Gift of Healing.
00:50:47.865 --> 00:50:52.833
And so I was with a missionary that Jim and I know very well, Ella Jacobs.
00:50:53.474 --> 00:50:56.697
And we were serving in Fife in Dalgety, Dalgety Bay.
00:50:56.717 --> 00:50:59.780
It's a big estate, big housing estate in Scotland.
00:51:00.322 --> 00:51:01.744
I'd been out a few months.
00:51:02.063 --> 00:51:03.286
Jake has been out longer than I had.
00:51:03.465 --> 00:51:04.226
We're not in the store.
00:51:04.827 --> 00:51:09.492
And this lady, old lady, I'm middle-aged.
00:51:09.532 --> 00:51:10.434
She was older back then.
00:51:10.454 --> 00:51:11.094
She was middle-aged.
00:51:11.135 --> 00:51:11.996
I'm middle-aged now.
00:51:12.496 --> 00:51:13.777
Oh, you are now.
00:51:14.057 --> 00:51:14.599
We're all older.
00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:15.860
I'm probably older than what she is right now.
00:51:16.240 --> 00:51:18.864
And so, not to know, she's very polite, came in.
00:51:19.403 --> 00:51:20.585
We started teaching her.
00:51:21.601 --> 00:51:27.849
first discussion and about halfway through her voice changed and Ella Jacobs and I looked at each other.
00:51:27.909 --> 00:51:33.956
I have two pages dedicated in my journal, which is for somebody that hated writing the journal, that was pretty huge for me.
00:51:33.976 --> 00:51:41.445
And I went into great detail in writing this in my journal because it had such a profound impact on me at that time.
00:51:42.067 --> 00:51:50.356
Anyway, this lady, her voice changed during the conversation in the first discussion at the point where we were talking about Joseph Smith and the first vision.
00:51:50.376 --> 00:51:52.751
That's the first discussion, Jim, I think.
00:51:53.692 --> 00:51:57.036
And so as she did that, her voice changed.
00:51:57.096 --> 00:51:58.777
And then she said she's not feeling well.
00:51:59.539 --> 00:52:11.771
And then she said there's a voice in her head telling her that she has an unfamiliar spirit in her body and that would we bestow a blessing upon her to remove the spirit?
00:52:12.893 --> 00:52:14.135
I'd only been out three months.
00:52:14.195 --> 00:52:15.856
Jake has been out maybe six months.
00:52:17.038 --> 00:52:19.780
And we looked at each other and I'm like, what the heck is going on?
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:33.202
Anyway, We found ourselves, we responded, we said yes, and we got a chair from the kitchen, brought it into the living room.
00:52:33.262 --> 00:52:37.067
She sat on the chair in the living room, and we laid our hands on her head.
00:52:37.086 --> 00:52:41.813
And at this time, also, her voice, it was like two-tone voice.
00:52:42.134 --> 00:52:43.315
It was scary, actually.
00:52:43.396 --> 00:52:45.018
She had two different voices.
00:52:45.826 --> 00:52:47.148
And we laid our hands upon her head.
00:52:47.248 --> 00:52:49.130
I think Jacob's was, I was terrified.
00:52:49.150 --> 00:52:50.471
I think Jacob's was the mouthpiece.
00:52:51.512 --> 00:52:56.398
And we cast out this evil spirit that was in her.
00:52:56.418 --> 00:53:04.708
And what was shocking is that a body started reeling in a circular motion around the chair.
00:53:04.748 --> 00:53:08.452
She was physically moving and her hands were on top of her head.
00:53:08.492 --> 00:53:17.797
And then at one point, halfway through the blessing, one of her hands came and tried to remove my hands, because Jacob's is below my hands.
00:53:17.878 --> 00:53:19.259
My hands are on top of Jacob's.
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:23.583
She then tried to remove my hands off her head.
00:53:23.623 --> 00:53:24.605
That was one of her hands.
00:53:25.126 --> 00:53:27.668
And the other hand on the other side came and pressed it down.
00:53:27.768 --> 00:53:40.141
So it was like there was a battle going on inside of her, a body, a mind, where one part of her was trying to keep her hands on her head and continue with the blessing.
00:53:40.610 --> 00:53:47.659
And another side to her with the other hand, right hand, was trying to physically remove, physically push our hands off her head.
00:53:48.380 --> 00:53:53.487
And all that was happening while she was rotating somewhat on the chair.
00:53:53.527 --> 00:53:55.670
It was a frightening experience.
00:53:56.512 --> 00:53:58.153
Jacob was terrified.
00:53:58.173 --> 00:53:58.934
I certainly was.
00:53:59.375 --> 00:54:03.420
He gave this amazing blessing and actually cast out this evil spirit.
00:54:04.521 --> 00:54:06.846
And as soon as she did, she seemed to...
00:54:07.297 --> 00:54:08.398
change and calm down.
00:54:08.438 --> 00:54:10.422
She said, we put the chair back in the kitchen.
00:54:10.481 --> 00:54:15.327
She sat down, she went back to normal, you know, like it was, and I'm like freaking out.
00:54:15.909 --> 00:54:19.673
And then, uh, she completely random.
00:54:19.873 --> 00:54:20.936
And I'm not making this up.
00:54:20.976 --> 00:54:22.498
This is, this is just what happened.
00:54:23.117 --> 00:54:24.981
Um, Jacobs will hear this.
00:54:25.061 --> 00:54:26.001
He'll, he'll remember this.
00:54:26.081 --> 00:54:34.193
Cause I think he is the podcast, uh, Han went down the side of the couch, you know, uh, actually outside of the, we call them the settee, the couch.
00:54:34.954 --> 00:54:37.199
And, uh, appeared a knife.
00:54:37.721 --> 00:54:39.382
She had a knife in her hand.
00:54:40.425 --> 00:54:46.713
And she threw the knife across the floor level of the carpet.
00:54:46.813 --> 00:54:54.005
Not at leg height or body height, but skimmed it across the floor randomly.
00:54:54.445 --> 00:54:55.588
Completely unexpected.
00:54:57.289 --> 00:54:59.554
The whole thing was the weirdest experience I've ever had.
00:55:00.315 --> 00:55:01.476
The details were in my journal.
00:55:01.496 --> 00:55:02.438
I need to go back and read it.
00:55:03.074 --> 00:55:10.943
It was, and then she seemed to, at the end, you know, seemed to not talk about what she did with the knife, just literally threw the knife across the floor.
00:55:11.423 --> 00:55:12.746
It missed Elder Jacob's leg.
00:55:13.025 --> 00:55:15.789
I mean, it would have, it was a kitchen knife.
00:55:16.070 --> 00:55:16.831
It just missed his leg.
00:55:17.331 --> 00:55:19.853
At that point, we're like, we need to, we need to go.
00:55:20.235 --> 00:55:21.076
We need to get out here.
00:55:21.115 --> 00:55:27.503
And so that, I had a few experiences like that on the mission, which are very unusual, very extraordinary.
00:55:27.523 --> 00:55:35.773
As I listen to you, and I look back at that now, and thought that we had cast an evil spirit out.
00:55:36.853 --> 00:55:41.338
We were told by the mission person, you did the right thing, you cast the evil spirit out, but don't go back.
00:55:42.420 --> 00:55:48.867
As I look back at that now, I believe that this lady had mental health issues.
00:55:49.307 --> 00:55:51.050
I don't believe she was possessed with a spirit.
00:55:51.150 --> 00:55:51.751
I don't believe that.
00:55:52.251 --> 00:56:02.851
At the time, I felt my power, my amazing patriarchal power and the gift of healing had hopefully healed this lady, and I I don't believe that now.
00:56:02.990 --> 00:56:05.134
I think this lady had mental health issues.
00:56:05.695 --> 00:56:09.559
I think she needed to go to a professional doctor, do some blood work.
00:56:10.119 --> 00:56:11.442
This was 30 years ago.
00:56:11.481 --> 00:56:15.025
Who knows what she was going through physically, mentally?
00:56:15.806 --> 00:56:17.929
We know so much more now than we did back then.
00:56:17.969 --> 00:56:20.552
We knew very little back then, I think.
00:56:21.434 --> 00:56:25.978
And so I look back at that now, and this conversation has really given me a different perspective.
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:30.125
Not that I didn't think it was mental health before, but certainly put it into perspective.
00:56:30.565 --> 00:56:31.085
Would you say...
00:56:31.554 --> 00:56:44.606
I'm right then now to think that that experience, as extreme as it was for me, certainly, and frightening, does that sound like a mental health-related issue to you?
00:56:45.507 --> 00:56:46.188
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:46.248 --> 00:57:00.161
So when my child will have psychosis, 100% is behavior that I would think was demonic if I was facing it and I believed that.
00:57:00.514 --> 00:57:05.860
But yeah, that's 100% the kind of behavior that I've experienced.
00:57:06.822 --> 00:57:07.503
That's extraordinary.
00:57:07.543 --> 00:57:08.985
And so there are treatments.
00:57:09.246 --> 00:57:11.188
You're saying there are treatments for that.
00:57:11.748 --> 00:57:14.632
And the treatment is not in the church necessarily.
00:57:14.672 --> 00:57:21.302
You said the church is not, you know, provides the complete solution.
00:57:21.342 --> 00:57:21.782
It doesn't.
00:57:21.943 --> 00:57:22.523
I accept that.
00:57:22.543 --> 00:57:23.646
I think you're 100% right.
00:57:23.726 --> 00:57:26.909
I think Jim would agree.
00:57:27.458 --> 00:58:02.510
agree with that as well he can speak for himself that the church doesn't have all the answers um and so the advice is even if it means that the independent professional counseling is maybe even to give the church a break let's say the counselor is from the from the non-mormon counselor hopefully to say look just take a break from the mormon church all this intensity is making the problem worse take a break the church doesn't want to hear that clearly But the right thing to do is to take a break from the church, have a breather, go get some counseling, go get some therapy.
00:58:03.771 --> 00:58:05.414
Just don't focus on that.
00:58:05.894 --> 00:58:06.856
Focus on your mental health.
00:58:07.016 --> 00:58:10.860
And that may or may not mean them coming back to the church if the church doesn't want.
00:58:11.501 --> 00:58:12.702
But you're right.
00:58:12.804 --> 00:58:13.083
I agree.
00:58:13.164 --> 00:58:27.534
I think the church is absolutely not in that space and not ready to acknowledge its role in mental health and even given enough sufficient advice from the pulpit to say, look, go get some professional help.
00:58:28.655 --> 00:58:32.481
Go use independent sources for their advice.
00:58:33.342 --> 00:58:43.679
And even if it means taking a break from us, it's like at work, a professional company will say, look, if you're struggling with mental health or physical health, don't come to work.
00:58:45.121 --> 00:58:46.704
Go get the treatment.
00:58:46.985 --> 00:58:48.226
That's what a professional company would do.
00:58:48.306 --> 00:58:48.967
Go get the treatment.
00:58:49.469 --> 00:58:50.309
Go take the break.
00:58:50.710 --> 00:58:52.733
Your job's still here when you get back.
00:58:54.177 --> 00:58:55.119
We'll support you.
00:58:55.539 --> 00:58:56.141
We'll support you.
00:58:56.461 --> 00:58:57.702
Family, we'll support you.
00:58:58.103 --> 00:58:59.025
Go do what you need to do.
00:58:59.445 --> 00:59:00.086
We're here.
00:59:00.347 --> 00:59:01.148
Go take the space.
00:59:02.690 --> 00:59:04.474
Jim, I can't see the church ever doing that.
00:59:05.596 --> 00:59:07.117
I think that would be difficult.
00:59:07.277 --> 00:59:12.146
And as I listen to you tell this story, Ian, I'm reminded of my story, which isn't nearly as dramatic.
00:59:13.347 --> 00:59:27.052
But when I cast out a devil, which was somebody who essentially had had a head injury, a traumatic brain injury, As I look back on it, I felt like a big deal.
00:59:27.072 --> 00:59:40.110
I think that's part of the problem is that, I mean, Ian, you tell that story and you were frightened, but it's also, I mean, missions are just so much rejection and an awful lot of boredom.
00:59:40.130 --> 00:59:45.960
And if you can break that up with a good demonic possession, that kind of makes your day.
00:59:46.059 --> 00:59:47.161
That's kind of exciting.
00:59:47.282 --> 00:59:55.425
I mean, yes, it's terrifying, but it's, oh, look, I was snatched from the jaws of evil by the power of my priesthood.
00:59:55.445 --> 01:00:13.112
I mean, there are, I think, perverse incentives to sort of seek out those kinds of moments and relish them rather than come to the relatively boring conclusion of, hey, you need some medical help.
01:00:14.413 --> 01:00:19.800
You don't need the mighty Elder Bennett or the mighty Elder Wilkes to summon the powers of heaven.
01:00:20.449 --> 01:00:27.119
You need to go to the doctor and get some blood work and get some medication, get some counseling.
01:00:28.282 --> 01:00:43.445
And I think there's kind of, would you agree, Beth, that there's kind of a perverse incentive to perpetuate kind of the false narratives within the church about their ability to solve mental health issues?
01:00:44.289 --> 01:00:44.831
Absolutely.
01:00:44.871 --> 01:00:50.199
So one of the things that I think of is Tony Robbins talks about like the six human needs.
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:52.925
And one of those needs is the need for significance.
01:00:53.606 --> 01:01:00.438
And so if I'm having mental health issues and it's just mental health issues, there is no need being fulfilled.
01:01:00.478 --> 01:01:01.619
There is something wrong with me.
01:01:02.300 --> 01:01:18.137
But If I'm having a mental health issue and I am actually being possessed by a demon because I am such a good, righteous, holy person that Satan himself is coming to attack me, my need for significance is fulfilled, right?
01:01:18.177 --> 01:01:24.804
And if a missionary is able to come and cast that demon out and make it so that I...
01:01:26.210 --> 01:01:33.356
you know, no longer have this demon possessing me, that missionary has their need for significance fulfilled, right?
01:01:33.376 --> 01:01:49.592
And so this narrative that it's something spiritual because we're all so sacred and holy and special fulfills something in us, but it's not actually the solution or reality that we need.
01:01:49.612 --> 01:01:53.094
Beth, this is one of the most extraordinary conversations I've ever had.
01:01:53.195 --> 01:01:53.675
I mean that.
01:01:54.737 --> 01:01:55.418
It's been...
01:01:56.673 --> 01:01:59.958
more than I expected.
01:02:00.597 --> 01:02:03.440
I'm so sorry for all the pain and hurt that you've gone through yourself.
01:02:04.643 --> 01:02:10.489
I'm pleased to hear that you've received the treatment and support that you needed, you know, physically, you know, mentally, which is great.
01:02:10.869 --> 01:02:18.797
I'm sorry about the, you know, the hurt and pain that your children are going through and I hope that there is support for them and that they will recover fully.
01:02:19.579 --> 01:02:28.469
You're a wonderful person and I could talk for hours with someone like you and I think, I know for a fact that When people listen to this, they will learn so much from this.
01:02:28.489 --> 01:02:29.391
I certainly have.
01:02:30.112 --> 01:02:31.373
I think you're a wonderful person.
01:02:32.114 --> 01:02:34.398
I would love to have you back if you're ever interested in coming back.
01:02:34.659 --> 01:02:36.561
I'm sure Jenny feels the same way.
01:02:37.063 --> 01:02:38.646
There's so much more behind.
01:02:38.686 --> 01:02:40.568
We've kind of skimmed it, I think.
01:02:40.608 --> 01:02:44.034
There's been points we've discussed where we've just kind of touched upon these points.
01:02:44.135 --> 01:02:48.300
There's so much more value in even exploring those topics.
01:02:48.641 --> 01:02:51.045
But I want to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you.
01:02:51.617 --> 01:02:55.563
for coming onto our podcast and sharing your insights.
01:02:56.666 --> 01:03:00.793
Beth, do you have any other thoughts or comments that you'd like to share?
01:03:00.813 --> 01:03:06.061
And then following that, Jim, do you have any of your final thoughts and comments that you want to share before we close out?
01:03:06.481 --> 01:03:08.184
Well, I'll let Beth have the final word.
01:03:08.244 --> 01:03:11.951
And just quickly, thank you, Beth, for everything you brought here.
01:03:11.971 --> 01:03:13.233
I have learned an awful lot.
01:03:13.273 --> 01:03:15.637
I think a lot of people listening to this will learn an awful lot.
01:03:15.677 --> 01:03:18.322
And I think you may have saved some lives today.
01:03:18.849 --> 01:03:25.699
I mean, I think that there is such a huge need for this kind of information.
01:03:26.641 --> 01:03:39.798
And I am so grateful to you for doing everything you can in your power to fulfill that need and to fill that gap between ignorance and the kind of knowledge that is necessary to save lives.
01:03:39.958 --> 01:03:47.889
So I so appreciate this conversation and thank you very much and want to hear your summation and your last word here.
01:03:48.802 --> 01:03:50.865
Thank you guys for having me.
01:03:50.925 --> 01:03:52.068
It's been a lot of fun.
01:03:52.168 --> 01:04:05.193
So one of the things that I just want people to walk away from this with, a lot of times people hear me talk about Mormon crime or Mormon true crime and immediately your defenses go up.
01:04:06.114 --> 01:04:09.318
My agenda is not to make Mormonism go away.
01:04:09.358 --> 01:04:11.422
It's not even to make Mormonism look bad.
01:04:11.442 --> 01:04:18.333
It is to make it so that people are aware and paying attention to the types of things that are resulting in people losing their lives.
01:04:19.074 --> 01:04:30.713
And so that you guys within your own community can go advocate for changes in policies, changes in culture and attitudes within Mormonism that cause these crimes.
01:04:31.489 --> 01:04:49.784
And that begins with admitting that, yes, somebody can have mental illness, but it doesn't mean that Mormonism did not prop them up in moving forward a crime because they felt validated by Mormonism in their mental illness.
01:04:52.481 --> 01:04:54.626
Beth, thank you for those final words.
01:04:54.806 --> 01:04:56.929
Again, thank you for taking time to come on the podcast.
01:04:57.010 --> 01:04:57.952
We appreciate you so much.
01:04:58.253 --> 01:05:01.478
Jim, thank you for your valuable, equal value contributions as well.
01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:06.166
To you, to Beth and Jim, thank you again.
01:05:06.208 --> 01:05:10.434
And to all the listeners, thank you for joining us on this week's podcast.
01:05:11.036 --> 01:05:17.809
It's an extraordinary conversation and I'm confident that we will get a great deal from this.
01:05:17.889 --> 01:05:25.710
So on behalf of Jim and I, we thank you and we're signing out and we'll look forward to meeting with you next week.
01:05:25.730 --> 01:05:26.170
Thank you, Beth.
01:05:26.572 --> 01:05:27.112
Thank you, Jim.
01:05:28.416 --> 01:05:28.978
Thank you, Beth.
01:05:29.038 --> 01:05:29.619
Thank you,
01:05:31.184 --> 01:05:31.264
Liam.
01:05:32.065 --> 01:05:32.126
Bye.