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People often ask me how I came up
with the idea of productive failure,
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the notion that we could somehow
intentionally design for failure
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and bootstrap it for deep learning.
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After all, many people have talked about
the value of learning from failure.
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These accounts, however,
are largely reactive.
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They talk about learning from
failure after it happens.
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The idea of productive
failure is to be proactive.
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That is, if failure is
so powerful for learning.
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Then we should not wait for it to happen.
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We should intentionally
design for deep learning.
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an excerpt from today's book, productive
Failure, and we are joined by the
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author of that book, Manu Kapur.
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You are very welcome to the show.
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a pleasure to be here.
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It's great to have you on Inside Learning.
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I wanted first.
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Throw it out there.
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You've done a Copernicus on the whole
model of learning here, so let's tell our
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audience it came from and what it's about.
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Yes, as you said, you know, we're so used
to when you're about to learn something
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new, the default model, which is quite
intuitive, is direct instruction.
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So you don't know something, let me
tell you, let me explain it to you.
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Let me, you know, teach you
exactly what it is and how to solve
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problems and so on and so forth.
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It turns out over years
of research that model.
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Was not leading to deep understanding and
the ability to apply to novel contexts.
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And as a doctoral student, I was
trying to figure out why is it
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that, , something so intuitive?
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If you don't know, let me just tell
you, why does good telling good
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lectures, , lead to poor results?
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And over time I started
to understand the problem.
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The problem is not that we learn poorly
from bad lectures, it's actually we
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learn poorly from even very good ones.
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And once you get that epiphany,
you start to question the
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starting point of all instruction.
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That is, if you're about teach something,
you teach someone something new is
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the starting point, the telling.
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Or should it be something else?
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And that's where I turned it on its head
is that if telling the correct thing
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doesn't work as well, then perhaps we
should start with something, like failure.
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What if we could intentionally design
activities for people when they're
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about to learn something new in a way
that these activities are challenging
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yet intuitive, but they're designed
in a way that they won't be able
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to get to the correct answer, nor
is that the expectation anyways.
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Right.
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And once they've done that once, once
they've tried a number of ways to solve
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the problem or the activity, if the
instruction then comes and consolidates
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and builds on that, then you turn that
initial failure into something productive.
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So it inverts the learning
sequence where you go from tell
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first and then solve problems to.
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Solve carefully design problems
that are designed for you to fail,
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and then you try to understand the
concepts underlying those problems,
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and that's how you learn deeply.
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I mentioned the Ptolemy vs Copernicus
kind of model, which is really the
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traditional direct instruction model,
and very respectful of that in the book.
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You're not saying we're idiots
to do this or anything like that.
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You're actually just going The
research, the current research shows
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that that model often fails when
delivered by even brilliant teachers.
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And that's the paradox.
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You can be a brilliant teacher, but that
does not lead to brilliant teaching.
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Yeah, because part of the,
it's not nothing to do with the
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brilliance of the teacher or the
domain expertise of the teacher.
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The basic idea is that a
novice should be able to see.
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What, an expert is seeing.
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So if an expert can explain what he sees
in the, beautiful content, but that does
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not mean the novice sees the same things.
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And so really the first job of
teaching then is not necessarily to
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show what an expert, sees, but to
prepare the novice to see those things.
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And I think failure does
a very good job at that.
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Let's get into some of the studies here
early to bring them forward for people
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who may drop off from their attention
spans the idea of failure generation.
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So this is really what you've focused on,
is to create safe environments to fail.
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And then measure the results
on of those generated failures.
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That's right.
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So, I mean this, it's a very well
established, effect in the learning
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sciences and the psychological sciences.
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It's the, I've, I call it
the failed generation effect.
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And the idea is simple.
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You know, a trivial example or a toy
example I often give is, when we go
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to parties, for example, or networking
events, the standard default mode is,
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if I meet you, I'll say, hi, I'm Manu,
and, you will say, hi, I'm maiden.
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When in fact the failed generation
studies or the effects that I should just
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walk up to you and just randomly guess
your name and say, Hey, are you Mark?
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And then you say, oh, no, I'm Aiden.
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So see, , I made an error., I'm most
likely to make an error, guessing a random
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name of a person that I've never met.
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Then I get corrected because you tell me
what your real name is and if you do the
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same to me, then, having generated the
failed response, followed by a correction
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of that failure actually leads to a better
memory of the name, in the long term.
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So I'm more likely to remember
that I met Aidan at a network.
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If I'd guessed your name first and
then be corrected as opposed to Aiden
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just telling me, Hey, I'm Aiden.
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So that's the idea that failure really
leaves another path to the knowledge or to
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the memory that you're trying to retrieve.
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And retrieval failure actually
helps, it's a learning event that
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actually helps strengthens the memory,
provided there's a correction to it.
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for those who are maybe cynical
or skeptical, the results are
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incredible that you've had.
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And let's tell the people
about a, the studies, 'cause it
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was hard to to find subjects.
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But then after that, the
results have been astounding.
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When you want to do studies in productive
failure and you go to schools of
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participants and then you say, well,
I'm gonna Desi, I'm gonna design
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activities for you where you will not
be able to get to the correct answer.
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And all of this is very intentional
because believe me, you will learn deeper.
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You don't get the best buy in immediately.
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But luckily, , we got some schools,
we got one school on board, and, , and
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then we worked with the teacher,
a math teacher, and we designed a
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simple experiment where the teacher
taught the same concept, you know,
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to students, , in two different ways.
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One was using productive failure where,
you do the problem solving designed
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for you to generate, but not be able
to get to the correct answer, followed
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by the teacher, you know, consolidating
and teaching the concepts proper.
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All instruction where the teacher
went straight into the, to the
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teaching of the concept and then
got students to solve that problem,
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that required those concepts.
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Okay.
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And we found that, when you look at basic.
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Procedural fluency, like
basic foundational knowledge.
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Are you able to remember
the formula or the CRM?
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Are you able to, given what you learned,
are you able to solve problems using that?
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Both methods are very good, , and highly
efficient and building high levels of,
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basic knowledge, foundation knowledge.
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But the differences start to arise in,
whether students actually understood.
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What they were doing, they understood
why the formula, the theorem worked
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the way they, the way it did.
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So the understanding levels were
significantly better in productive
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failure students, and then your
ability to transfer, which is, which
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means that the new information or
the new knowledge is assembled in
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ways that are flexible and adaptable.
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We find the productive failure students
were even more significantly better than.
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Direct instruction students.
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So that's how it all started,
and that, and you never, , do
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anything with one study.
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But as over time, one study
became two, two became five
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more schools came on board.
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, We started conducting controlled
experiments as well in the labs.
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Body of evidence started to form.
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And then the wider scientific
community started to look at and,
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start to reproduce, replicate
the findings, and over time.
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There was, hundreds of experimental
effects that when we aggregated and
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analyzed, we found that, there's a
very strong and robust effect in favor
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of productive failure over direct
instruction, and if the productive failure
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model is well designed and well enacted
or well carried out, , then the learning
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effect of productive failure can be up to
three times that of direct instruction.
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So, that is not a small effect
or an incremental thing.
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It's a really major, breakthrough.
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I was struck reading your book, how
the depth of research you've done.
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Who did it as a doctorate student, you
did it 'cause you were hyper interested,
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but also you were training before to
be a professional and football player.
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So you had that discipline or that
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Mm-hmm.
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you just found a new place, a new field
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Yeah.
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apply it on.
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Yeah.
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I wanted to share with our audience
the four A's, this is really the
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researcher, this science behind productive
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Hmm.
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Yeah, so those, the four A's behind
productive failure are basically
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the umbrella set of, mechanisms as
to why productive failure works.
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So the four A stand for activation,
awareness, affect, and assembly.
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So activation is the idea that
if I want to teach you something
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new, if I can activate relevant.
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Prior knowledge.
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Knowledge that you already have.
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It may not be the formal knowledge,
but it could be intuitive knowledge,
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informal ways of thinking and
reasoning, which often go inactivated.
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If I can activate knowledge that
is relevant to the thing you're
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about to learn, and the wider this
relevant knowledge activation,
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the easier it becomes for you to
process the new information and
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the easier it becomes for you to.
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Integrate that information
into your current knowledge.
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So activation is key.
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When you go straight into telling, you're
not really activating as well, you're
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just leaving the learner to try to make
sense of the information as it is coming
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in, which creates a very heavy load.
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So by deliberately activating, using
a failure based protocol, you are,
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setting up, you're preparing the
learner to actually, be able to process
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the new information when it comes in.
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So that's activation.
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What activation does, especially in
productive failure, is when a novice
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tries one thing and it doesn't work,
tries another and doesn't work.
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Third thing, fourth thing, fifth,
and all of those solutions do
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not lead to correct answers.
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You get an awareness, you build
an awareness that there's a gap
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between what I know and what I
can do versus what I don't know.
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And there's this gap and there's just
this awareness of a gap as itself, as
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a very strong mechanism, for learning.
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It prepares you, it primes you to
then receive instruction later on.
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So you've got the knowledge activated and
you're aware that there's a gap between
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what you know and what you need to know.
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That sets up The affect.
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And affect is the idea that once you
know you've tried a number of things
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and that didn't work, and you're
aware that there's a gap, you want to
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psychologically, basically, as human
beings, we wanna bridge that gap.
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So there's an interest to find
out what the correct solution is.
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There is a motivation to understand
why I got, I didn't get it right,
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and the teacher or the expert
has the correct explanation.
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The contrast, I want to examine the
contrast, what the orientation, you
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know, uh, towards the material that
you're about to learn is one of,
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okay, I really want to understand it.
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Uh, so that's, those are the
positive aspects of, uh, affect.
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But there's also the.
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You know, the negative emotions
that come into play, you can get
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frustrated that, oh, I tried a number
of things and each time it doesn't
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work or doesn't work optimally.
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This can be frustrating.
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Um, you know, and I can, I can feel
negative emotions in the process as well.
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And so we've analyzed that and.
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We found that not all positive
emotions correlate positively
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with learning outcomes.
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Neither do all negative emotions correlate
negatively with learning outcomes.
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Sometimes a little bit of frustration,
a little bit of negative emotions when
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you try something and it doesn't work
as long as that is the expectation.
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As long as that is a safe space within
you experiencing these things, these
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can be actually, uh, good for learning.
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They have positive effects on learning.
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So affect is big.
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Sort of umbrella within which you have
interests, uh, motivation, engagement,
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uh, frustration, negative emotions.
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All of this bundled into one.
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But as you can see, if you do this
well, effectively, you get really highly
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charged and you're ready, uh, to learn.
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So your knowledge is activated.
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You're aware what?
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There's a gap, and you are
primed in an affective charge.
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Take, you take all of these three
and at this time if an expert or a
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teacher comes and assembles it, right?
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That's the fourth A, um, compares
and contrast what you did with
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versus how to do it properly.
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It's in that contrast, it's in that
assembly that you then put it all together
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and it finally starts to make sense.
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And he said, oh, I get it now.
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And that get it now is the
deep understanding that comes,
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uh, as a result of this.
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Yeah, and that's, that's what
makes productive failure click.
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Amazing.
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And just to share, you're, you're actively
pursuing this, you actively have this in
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place, you're in Singapore, and also I was
just struck, I, I hear that Singapore is.
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Streets ahead of many countries
with their education system and
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the fact that they're, they're
welcoming this and they're bringing
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it into curricula is quite amazing.
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Yeah, so look, Singapore's always
had a keen sense, um, uh, about
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science and what the science
says, uh, about human learning.
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And they've, uh, actively had science.
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They've actually given science a good seat
to the table when it comes to designing
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educational policies and it all, and that
shows in the, you know, the performance of
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the education system, the philosophy, the
ethos, and productive failure is another.
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One of those Singapore made
in Singapore inventions.
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Um, that, that, I mean, Singapore
maths is already a very strong, uh,
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sort of mathematical curriculum.
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Uh, and to supercharge it with
productive failure that gives it
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just that extra amp, so to speak.
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And as I said, once there are results
and once there are once, once a learning
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method or a pedagogy shows traction.
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With evidence, um, and there is uptake.
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I think the, the Singapore, uh,
education system takes it up and the
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policy supports that and well, it's not
surprising that the system does very well.
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And you mentioned assembly there,
and I was thinking to myself, how,
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how does many of the audience of this
show are educators, trainers, leaders?
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How can they create.
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A safe experiment to assemble a safe
experiment for failure experiences
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to see this for themselves.
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How?
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How maybe some low hanging
fruit that they can use.
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Yeah, so I think there are multiple
layers within which this has to be done.
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I mean, first you've gotta set.
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The right cul.
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You've gotta, you know, set the right
mindsets, the expectations, and the
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culture because people, when you, when
you give them a challenging activity or
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when you, when you give them a challenging
task, something that is new, something
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that they're not, uh, ready for yet.
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You know, they come in
with a lot of anxiety.
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They come in with the expectation
that if I'm not able to solve
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this correctly, I'm a failure.
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Maybe this is not it.
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I will be judged, I'll be evaluated
poorly, and so on and so forth.
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That's the default mindset, whether
you're in school or in organizations.
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That's the default mindset
that most people would come in.
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Very rarely would be something different.
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So first job of a leader or a
teacher or a manager who's trying
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to use productive failure is to.
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Redesign this set of expectations,
you know, and, and be very clear
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that, okay, now, uh, I'm gonna
give you a challenging task.
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It's well beyond your current capabilities
and skillset, but look, it doesn't
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matter if you're not able to get to
the correct or the ideal solution.
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I want to see how you approach it.
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Um, what kinds of ideas you generate.
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How do you work with others?
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Um, you know, uh, because that's.
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You, you'll be in the growth zone.
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So I'm not gonna be evaluating
you for correctness or how, uh,
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how uh, successfully you solved,
solved the problem or the task.
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00:16:57,838 --> 00:17:02,038
I'm going to see how you can work
together and, uh, generate multiple
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ideas and solutions, even if they
don't work, uh, work out, because
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that's the whole goal of the exercise.
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So I think creating those safe spaces
that where when people are taking on.
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Challenges or tasks that are
beyond this current skill sets
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that there is going to be struggle.
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00:17:20,743 --> 00:17:25,603
There's going to be failure and further
norming that, that that is actually
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a good thing for learning and growth.
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I think that sets up people in a
very different way then they can
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start to approach the same task.
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With a different set of expectations.
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And of course, this change doesn't
happen by, by saying this once, you
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know, you have to keep emphasizing
the same message again and again until
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people really start to believe that
that is how it is and perhaps you
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need to model it yourself as well.
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So there's a lot of effort that grows
into, , a sustained effort, I would say,
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that goes into designing these cultures
that are very supportive of productive
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00:18:00,093 --> 00:18:02,463
failure types of training and learning.
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One of the things that I found myself
on a personal level was when I prepare
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for interviews, I do deep research.
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I think it's so helpful for me that
I prepare with questions in mind.
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It helps me to know that I'm gonna
be interviewing the author, read
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that, so I prepare with that in mind.
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When I was reading your book, I was
struck by that, that it's not just
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00:18:24,564 --> 00:18:29,544
getting, giving them the questions
before the exam or before the test.
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00:18:29,964 --> 00:18:32,674
It's actually giving them
the the questions before
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00:18:32,674 --> 00:18:34,054
they've even seen the content.
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00:18:35,453 --> 00:18:38,193
That's kind of the retrieval
practice, effect as well, a
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00:18:38,193 --> 00:18:39,963
failed generation effect as well.
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Back to that one.
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And that's the idea that yes.
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. Even before you learn the content,
if I give you, and people will think
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that why, what's the point of giving?
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00:18:47,773 --> 00:18:50,653
Giving you questions before
you even seen the content?
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00:18:51,283 --> 00:18:54,253
And the idea is that yes, you may
not be able to solve or answer
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00:18:54,253 --> 00:18:57,253
any of it, but just knowing
the questions help you orient.
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00:18:57,853 --> 00:19:01,723
Yourself towards the text or
the video, whatever instruction
336
00:19:01,723 --> 00:19:02,653
you're going to receive.
337
00:19:03,043 --> 00:19:05,953
It just primes you to pay
attention to certain things.
338
00:19:05,983 --> 00:19:10,643
It gives you selection, mechanisms
to hone in on, oh, actually this part
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00:19:10,643 --> 00:19:13,253
is important because here, there,
there was a question about that.
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00:19:13,633 --> 00:19:19,243
So in that sense, yes, even if you fail
to answer a set of questions prior to
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learning something, it still helps you.
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00:19:22,798 --> 00:19:26,158
Pay attention to critical aspects
during the learning event.
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00:19:27,734 --> 00:19:31,734
And if you had one last piece
of advice for say, even adult
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learning, and by the way, I.
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00:19:35,829 --> 00:19:40,179
Book is so useful for adult learners
on a personal level as well because
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00:19:40,179 --> 00:19:41,439
it teaches you lots of models.
347
00:19:41,444 --> 00:19:47,024
It gives you huge view of the importance
of inte, inte intellectual humility as
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00:19:47,158 --> 00:19:47,378
Oh,
349
00:19:47,684 --> 00:19:50,234
that you don't fall into
the Dunning Kruger effect
350
00:19:50,323 --> 00:19:50,593
well.
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00:19:50,744 --> 00:19:52,874
anything thinking that you
know a lot of knowledge because
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the first thing you learn.
353
00:19:54,079 --> 00:19:56,149
When you read a book like
this is how little you do
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00:19:56,453 --> 00:19:56,673
Hmm.
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00:19:57,199 --> 00:20:02,129
but for say somebody designing a
facilitation of some sort with adult
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00:20:02,129 --> 00:20:06,269
learners, perhaps they're doing a
corporate workshop, would be a good way
357
00:20:06,269 --> 00:20:11,459
to prime to use those four as in a way
before the session even takes place?
358
00:20:12,083 --> 00:20:12,593
Yeah.
359
00:20:12,593 --> 00:20:16,193
So I mean, it goes into the design
of the tasks and the activities.
360
00:20:16,193 --> 00:20:20,783
In the book I talk about how do you
design, so if you, if you are, you know,
361
00:20:20,783 --> 00:20:24,473
in an environment where you're teaching
facilitation skills and teams and so
362
00:20:24,473 --> 00:20:26,123
on and so forth, so how do you design.
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00:20:26,668 --> 00:20:30,823
Activities or tasks that are
challenging enough for your employees
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00:20:30,823 --> 00:20:32,053
who are about to learn this skill.
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00:20:32,053 --> 00:20:35,713
So there are a set of design principles
that I talk about in the book that
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the task itself has to have certain
features, and the more those features
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00:20:40,303 --> 00:20:44,023
are present, the more likely it'll be
a task that will work very well as a
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00:20:44,023 --> 00:20:46,123
productive failure activity or a task.
369
00:20:46,693 --> 00:20:46,933
Right?
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00:20:46,933 --> 00:20:47,833
So that's, that's one.
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00:20:47,883 --> 00:20:52,913
, Second, I, I also talk in the book about
, how do you yourself facilitate somebody.
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00:20:53,698 --> 00:20:58,468
Going through that task, how do you get
people to, explain what they're doing?
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00:20:58,498 --> 00:21:03,988
How do you get people to challenge or
hack their own explanation, so to speak?
374
00:21:03,988 --> 00:21:07,373
Hack their own thinking, so to speak,
using counterfactual reasoning.
375
00:21:08,138 --> 00:21:09,338
Which is really powerful.
376
00:21:09,768 --> 00:21:13,218
So I talk about the interaction schemes
that you could put in place that
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00:21:13,218 --> 00:21:17,378
are especially useful for productive
failure and and the final part is,
378
00:21:17,378 --> 00:21:21,548
like I said earlier, you've got to,
you, you've got to set the right social
379
00:21:21,548 --> 00:21:25,598
surroundings, the right context, the
right mindset and expectations so that
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00:21:25,598 --> 00:21:29,108
people go into the activity that you're
designed for them knowing very well.
381
00:21:29,528 --> 00:21:34,858
That success is not the criteria
here, but trying many things and
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00:21:34,858 --> 00:21:38,108
trying to see, trying to explore
and see how many things they could
383
00:21:38,108 --> 00:21:42,198
generate and learn from, because that
will prepare them for the learning.
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00:21:42,198 --> 00:21:46,488
I think that's the idea, and once they
go in with that expectation and mindset,
385
00:21:46,758 --> 00:21:48,328
you're more likely to get more out of it.
386
00:21:49,834 --> 00:21:50,374
Wonderful.
387
00:21:50,374 --> 00:21:54,644
And I'd have to recommend reading the
book to really get a grasp of that.
388
00:21:54,644 --> 00:21:59,134
There is so much, you had my head going
down so many different rabbit holes
389
00:21:59,134 --> 00:22:04,294
following up on studies, the amount
of research you share as well is just
390
00:22:04,294 --> 00:22:07,354
fascinating and really, really accessible.
391
00:22:07,384 --> 00:22:09,364
You do a great job of
making this accessible.
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00:22:09,364 --> 00:22:14,039
So I know, and I know that's difficult,
but, you do prepare us as the learner
393
00:22:14,849 --> 00:22:17,419
before for receiving this content as well.
394
00:22:17,449 --> 00:22:17,779
Manu.
395
00:22:18,019 --> 00:22:20,179
So where's the best place
for people to find out more?
396
00:22:20,179 --> 00:22:21,739
You have a website for the book.
397
00:22:21,739 --> 00:22:22,819
You have your own website.
398
00:22:22,819 --> 00:22:23,359
Where is, where
399
00:22:23,448 --> 00:22:25,968
You can Google Manu Kapur and
that will probably lead you
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00:22:25,968 --> 00:22:28,098
to my website, manu Kapur.com.
401
00:22:28,258 --> 00:22:29,218
Or Productive Failure.
402
00:22:29,218 --> 00:22:32,008
The book is on productive failure.com.
403
00:22:32,468 --> 00:22:34,358
It's also available on Amazon.
404
00:22:34,358 --> 00:22:37,578
You can view my TED Talks
and of course, my work sites.
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00:22:37,578 --> 00:22:39,423
So yeah, I'm easy to find.
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00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,790
Author of Productive Failure
Unlocking Deeper Learning Through
407
00:22:42,790 --> 00:22:44,540
the Science of Failing Manu Kapur.
408
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:45,910
Thank you for joining us.
409
00:22:45,924 --> 00:22:46,284
Thank you.
410
00:22:46,524 --> 00:22:47,094
It was a pleasure.
411
00:22:47,848 --> 00:22:50,038
Thanks for joining us on Inside Learning.
412
00:22:50,098 --> 00:22:53,728
Inside Learning is brought to you by the
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413
00:22:53,728 --> 00:22:57,838
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414
00:22:57,928 --> 00:23:02,368
Visit learnovate centre.org to find out
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415
00:23:02,368 --> 00:23:03,928
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People often ask me how I came up
with the idea of productive failure,
6
00:00:19,739 --> 00:00:23,249
the notion that we could somehow
intentionally design for failure
7
00:00:23,249 --> 00:00:24,976
and bootstrap it for deep learning.
8
00:00:25,396 --> 00:00:29,086
After all, many people have talked about
the value of learning from failure.
9
00:00:29,416 --> 00:00:32,206
These accounts, however,
are largely reactive.
10
00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:34,816
They talk about learning from
failure after it happens.
11
00:00:35,206 --> 00:00:38,026
The idea of productive
failure is to be proactive.
12
00:00:38,026 --> 00:00:40,906
That is, if failure is
so powerful for learning.
13
00:00:41,311 --> 00:00:43,501
Then we should not wait for it to happen.
14
00:00:43,831 --> 00:00:46,671
We should intentionally
design for deep learning.
15
00:00:47,481 --> 00:00:51,201
an excerpt from today's book, productive
Failure, and we are joined by the
16
00:00:51,201 --> 00:00:53,671
author of that book, Manu Kapur.
17
00:00:53,691 --> 00:00:55,131
You are very welcome to the show.
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00:00:55,270 --> 00:00:55,870
a pleasure to be here.
19
00:00:56,866 --> 00:00:58,546
It's great to have you on Inside Learning.
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I wanted first.
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Throw it out there.
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00:01:01,996 --> 00:01:08,476
You've done a Copernicus on the whole
model of learning here, so let's tell our
23
00:01:08,476 --> 00:01:11,198
audience it came from and what it's about.
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00:01:12,112 --> 00:01:15,972
Yes, as you said, you know, we're so used
to when you're about to learn something
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00:01:15,972 --> 00:01:20,922
new, the default model, which is quite
intuitive, is direct instruction.
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00:01:20,922 --> 00:01:23,892
So you don't know something, let me
tell you, let me explain it to you.
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00:01:23,892 --> 00:01:27,642
Let me, you know, teach you
exactly what it is and how to solve
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00:01:27,642 --> 00:01:29,262
problems and so on and so forth.
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00:01:29,882 --> 00:01:32,642
It turns out over years
of research that model.
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Was not leading to deep understanding and
the ability to apply to novel contexts.
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And as a doctoral student, I was
trying to figure out why is it
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00:01:43,682 --> 00:01:45,532
that, , something so intuitive?
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00:01:45,582 --> 00:01:49,092
If you don't know, let me just tell
you, why does good telling good
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00:01:49,092 --> 00:01:51,062
lectures, , lead to poor results?
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00:01:51,602 --> 00:01:54,122
And over time I started
to understand the problem.
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00:01:54,122 --> 00:01:57,392
The problem is not that we learn poorly
from bad lectures, it's actually we
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00:01:57,392 --> 00:01:59,342
learn poorly from even very good ones.
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00:01:59,942 --> 00:02:03,932
And once you get that epiphany,
you start to question the
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00:02:03,932 --> 00:02:06,092
starting point of all instruction.
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00:02:06,122 --> 00:02:11,582
That is, if you're about teach something,
you teach someone something new is
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00:02:11,582 --> 00:02:13,022
the starting point, the telling.
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00:02:13,742 --> 00:02:15,212
Or should it be something else?
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00:02:15,242 --> 00:02:18,442
And that's where I turned it on its head
is that if telling the correct thing
44
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doesn't work as well, then perhaps we
should start with something, like failure.
45
00:02:24,002 --> 00:02:29,032
What if we could intentionally design
activities for people when they're
46
00:02:29,032 --> 00:02:33,082
about to learn something new in a way
that these activities are challenging
47
00:02:33,082 --> 00:02:36,922
yet intuitive, but they're designed
in a way that they won't be able
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to get to the correct answer, nor
is that the expectation anyways.
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00:02:40,897 --> 00:02:41,167
Right.
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00:02:41,497 --> 00:02:45,667
And once they've done that once, once
they've tried a number of ways to solve
51
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the problem or the activity, if the
instruction then comes and consolidates
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00:02:50,617 --> 00:02:55,867
and builds on that, then you turn that
initial failure into something productive.
53
00:02:56,287 --> 00:02:59,587
So it inverts the learning
sequence where you go from tell
54
00:02:59,587 --> 00:03:02,527
first and then solve problems to.
55
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Solve carefully design problems
that are designed for you to fail,
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and then you try to understand the
concepts underlying those problems,
57
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and that's how you learn deeply.
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I mentioned the Ptolemy vs Copernicus
kind of model, which is really the
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traditional direct instruction model,
and very respectful of that in the book.
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You're not saying we're idiots
to do this or anything like that.
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You're actually just going The
research, the current research shows
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that that model often fails when
delivered by even brilliant teachers.
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00:03:34,883 --> 00:03:35,963
And that's the paradox.
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You can be a brilliant teacher, but that
does not lead to brilliant teaching.
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Yeah, because part of the,
it's not nothing to do with the
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brilliance of the teacher or the
domain expertise of the teacher.
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The basic idea is that a
novice should be able to see.
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What, an expert is seeing.
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So if an expert can explain what he sees
in the, beautiful content, but that does
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not mean the novice sees the same things.
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And so really the first job of
teaching then is not necessarily to
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show what an expert, sees, but to
prepare the novice to see those things.
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And I think failure does
a very good job at that.
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00:04:17,393 --> 00:04:21,113
Let's get into some of the studies here
early to bring them forward for people
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who may drop off from their attention
spans the idea of failure generation.
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00:04:26,693 --> 00:04:32,453
So this is really what you've focused on,
is to create safe environments to fail.
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And then measure the results
on of those generated failures.
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That's right.
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So, I mean this, it's a very well
established, effect in the learning
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00:04:41,137 --> 00:04:43,567
sciences and the psychological sciences.
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00:04:43,567 --> 00:04:46,657
It's the, I've, I call it
the failed generation effect.
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And the idea is simple.
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You know, a trivial example or a toy
example I often give is, when we go
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to parties, for example, or networking
events, the standard default mode is,
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if I meet you, I'll say, hi, I'm Manu,
and, you will say, hi, I'm maiden.
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When in fact the failed generation
studies or the effects that I should just
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walk up to you and just randomly guess
your name and say, Hey, are you Mark?
88
00:05:11,422 --> 00:05:13,402
And then you say, oh, no, I'm Aiden.
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00:05:13,852 --> 00:05:18,542
So see, , I made an error., I'm most
likely to make an error, guessing a random
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00:05:18,542 --> 00:05:20,282
name of a person that I've never met.
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00:05:20,882 --> 00:05:24,152
Then I get corrected because you tell me
what your real name is and if you do the
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same to me, then, having generated the
failed response, followed by a correction
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00:05:30,702 --> 00:05:36,352
of that failure actually leads to a better
memory of the name, in the long term.
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So I'm more likely to remember
that I met Aidan at a network.
95
00:05:41,352 --> 00:05:45,012
If I'd guessed your name first and
then be corrected as opposed to Aiden
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00:05:45,012 --> 00:05:46,512
just telling me, Hey, I'm Aiden.
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00:05:46,962 --> 00:05:51,222
So that's the idea that failure really
leaves another path to the knowledge or to
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the memory that you're trying to retrieve.
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00:05:53,332 --> 00:05:56,242
And retrieval failure actually
helps, it's a learning event that
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actually helps strengthens the memory,
provided there's a correction to it.
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00:06:00,821 --> 00:06:05,471
for those who are maybe cynical
or skeptical, the results are
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incredible that you've had.
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And let's tell the people
about a, the studies, 'cause it
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was hard to to find subjects.
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But then after that, the
results have been astounding.
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When you want to do studies in productive
failure and you go to schools of
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participants and then you say, well,
I'm gonna Desi, I'm gonna design
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activities for you where you will not
be able to get to the correct answer.
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And all of this is very intentional
because believe me, you will learn deeper.
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You don't get the best buy in immediately.
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But luckily, , we got some schools,
we got one school on board, and, , and
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then we worked with the teacher,
a math teacher, and we designed a
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simple experiment where the teacher
taught the same concept, you know,
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to students, , in two different ways.
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One was using productive failure where,
you do the problem solving designed
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for you to generate, but not be able
to get to the correct answer, followed
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by the teacher, you know, consolidating
and teaching the concepts proper.
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All instruction where the teacher
went straight into the, to the
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teaching of the concept and then
got students to solve that problem,
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that required those concepts.
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Okay.
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00:07:06,965 --> 00:07:08,420
And we found that, when you look at basic.
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Procedural fluency, like
basic foundational knowledge.
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Are you able to remember
the formula or the CRM?
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Are you able to, given what you learned,
are you able to solve problems using that?
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Both methods are very good, , and highly
efficient and building high levels of,
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basic knowledge, foundation knowledge.
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But the differences start to arise in,
whether students actually understood.
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What they were doing, they understood
why the formula, the theorem worked
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the way they, the way it did.
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So the understanding levels were
significantly better in productive
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failure students, and then your
ability to transfer, which is, which
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means that the new information or
the new knowledge is assembled in
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ways that are flexible and adaptable.
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We find the productive failure students
were even more significantly better than.
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Direct instruction students.
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So that's how it all started,
and that, and you never, , do
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anything with one study.
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But as over time, one study
became two, two became five
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more schools came on board.
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, We started conducting controlled
experiments as well in the labs.
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Body of evidence started to form.
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And then the wider scientific
community started to look at and,
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start to reproduce, replicate
the findings, and over time.
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There was, hundreds of experimental
effects that when we aggregated and
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analyzed, we found that, there's a
very strong and robust effect in favor
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of productive failure over direct
instruction, and if the productive failure
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model is well designed and well enacted
or well carried out, , then the learning
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effect of productive failure can be up to
three times that of direct instruction.
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So, that is not a small effect
or an incremental thing.
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It's a really major, breakthrough.
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I was struck reading your book, how
the depth of research you've done.
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Who did it as a doctorate student, you
did it 'cause you were hyper interested,
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but also you were training before to
be a professional and football player.
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So you had that discipline or that
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Mm-hmm.
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you just found a new place, a new field
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Yeah.
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apply it on.
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Yeah.
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I wanted to share with our audience
the four A's, this is really the
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researcher, this science behind productive
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Hmm.
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Yeah, so those, the four A's behind
productive failure are basically
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the umbrella set of, mechanisms as
to why productive failure works.
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So the four A stand for activation,
awareness, affect, and assembly.
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So activation is the idea that
if I want to teach you something
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new, if I can activate relevant.
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Prior knowledge.
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Knowledge that you already have.
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It may not be the formal knowledge,
but it could be intuitive knowledge,
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informal ways of thinking and
reasoning, which often go inactivated.
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If I can activate knowledge that
is relevant to the thing you're
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about to learn, and the wider this
relevant knowledge activation,
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the easier it becomes for you to
process the new information and
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the easier it becomes for you to.
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Integrate that information
into your current knowledge.
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So activation is key.
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When you go straight into telling, you're
not really activating as well, you're
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just leaving the learner to try to make
sense of the information as it is coming
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in, which creates a very heavy load.
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So by deliberately activating, using
a failure based protocol, you are,
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setting up, you're preparing the
learner to actually, be able to process
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the new information when it comes in.
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So that's activation.
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What activation does, especially in
productive failure, is when a novice
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tries one thing and it doesn't work,
tries another and doesn't work.
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Third thing, fourth thing, fifth,
and all of those solutions do
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not lead to correct answers.
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00:10:45,858 --> 00:10:48,558
You get an awareness, you build
an awareness that there's a gap
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between what I know and what I
can do versus what I don't know.
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And there's this gap and there's just
this awareness of a gap as itself, as
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a very strong mechanism, for learning.
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It prepares you, it primes you to
then receive instruction later on.
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So you've got the knowledge activated and
you're aware that there's a gap between
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what you know and what you need to know.
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That sets up The affect.
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And affect is the idea that once you
know you've tried a number of things
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and that didn't work, and you're
aware that there's a gap, you want to
200
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psychologically, basically, as human
beings, we wanna bridge that gap.
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So there's an interest to find
out what the correct solution is.
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There is a motivation to understand
why I got, I didn't get it right,
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and the teacher or the expert
has the correct explanation.
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The contrast, I want to examine the
contrast, what the orientation, you
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know, uh, towards the material that
you're about to learn is one of,
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okay, I really want to understand it.
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Uh, so that's, those are the
positive aspects of, uh, affect.
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But there's also the.
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You know, the negative emotions
that come into play, you can get
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frustrated that, oh, I tried a number
of things and each time it doesn't
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work or doesn't work optimally.
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This can be frustrating.
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Um, you know, and I can, I can feel
negative emotions in the process as well.
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And so we've analyzed that and.
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We found that not all positive
emotions correlate positively
216
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with learning outcomes.
217
00:12:13,318 --> 00:12:17,998
Neither do all negative emotions correlate
negatively with learning outcomes.
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Sometimes a little bit of frustration,
a little bit of negative emotions when
219
00:12:22,558 --> 00:12:27,238
you try something and it doesn't work
as long as that is the expectation.
220
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As long as that is a safe space within
you experiencing these things, these
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can be actually, uh, good for learning.
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00:12:34,828 --> 00:12:36,358
They have positive effects on learning.
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So affect is big.
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Sort of umbrella within which you have
interests, uh, motivation, engagement,
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uh, frustration, negative emotions.
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All of this bundled into one.
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But as you can see, if you do this
well, effectively, you get really highly
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charged and you're ready, uh, to learn.
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So your knowledge is activated.
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You're aware what?
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There's a gap, and you are
primed in an affective charge.
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Take, you take all of these three
and at this time if an expert or a
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teacher comes and assembles it, right?
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That's the fourth A, um, compares
and contrast what you did with
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versus how to do it properly.
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It's in that contrast, it's in that
assembly that you then put it all together
237
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and it finally starts to make sense.
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And he said, oh, I get it now.
239
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And that get it now is the
deep understanding that comes,
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uh, as a result of this.
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Yeah, and that's, that's what
makes productive failure click.
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Amazing.
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And just to share, you're, you're actively
pursuing this, you actively have this in
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place, you're in Singapore, and also I was
just struck, I, I hear that Singapore is.
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00:13:50,924 --> 00:13:54,734
Streets ahead of many countries
with their education system and
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00:13:54,734 --> 00:13:57,644
the fact that they're, they're
welcoming this and they're bringing
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it into curricula is quite amazing.
248
00:14:01,098 --> 00:14:06,438
Yeah, so look, Singapore's always
had a keen sense, um, uh, about
249
00:14:06,438 --> 00:14:09,828
science and what the science
says, uh, about human learning.
250
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And they've, uh, actively had science.
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They've actually given science a good seat
to the table when it comes to designing
252
00:14:17,298 --> 00:14:22,638
educational policies and it all, and that
shows in the, you know, the performance of
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00:14:22,638 --> 00:14:27,643
the education system, the philosophy, the
ethos, and productive failure is another.
254
00:14:28,318 --> 00:14:31,048
One of those Singapore made
in Singapore inventions.
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00:14:31,498 --> 00:14:36,748
Um, that, that, I mean, Singapore
maths is already a very strong, uh,
256
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sort of mathematical curriculum.
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Uh, and to supercharge it with
productive failure that gives it
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just that extra amp, so to speak.
259
00:14:45,268 --> 00:14:50,368
And as I said, once there are results
and once there are once, once a learning
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method or a pedagogy shows traction.
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With evidence, um, and there is uptake.
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I think the, the Singapore, uh,
education system takes it up and the
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policy supports that and well, it's not
surprising that the system does very well.
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And you mentioned assembly there,
and I was thinking to myself, how,
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how does many of the audience of this
show are educators, trainers, leaders?
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How can they create.
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A safe experiment to assemble a safe
experiment for failure experiences
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to see this for themselves.
269
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How?
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How maybe some low hanging
fruit that they can use.
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Yeah, so I think there are multiple
layers within which this has to be done.
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I mean, first you've gotta set.
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The right cul.
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You've gotta, you know, set the right
mindsets, the expectations, and the
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culture because people, when you, when
you give them a challenging activity or
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when you, when you give them a challenging
task, something that is new, something
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that they're not, uh, ready for yet.
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You know, they come in
with a lot of anxiety.
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They come in with the expectation
that if I'm not able to solve
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this correctly, I'm a failure.
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Maybe this is not it.
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I will be judged, I'll be evaluated
poorly, and so on and so forth.
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That's the default mindset, whether
you're in school or in organizations.
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That's the default mindset
that most people would come in.
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Very rarely would be something different.
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So first job of a leader or a
teacher or a manager who's trying
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to use productive failure is to.
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Redesign this set of expectations,
you know, and, and be very clear
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that, okay, now, uh, I'm gonna
give you a challenging task.
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It's well beyond your current capabilities
and skillset, but look, it doesn't
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matter if you're not able to get to
the correct or the ideal solution.
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I want to see how you approach it.
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Um, what kinds of ideas you generate.
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How do you work with others?
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Um, you know, uh, because that's.
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You, you'll be in the growth zone.
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So I'm not gonna be evaluating
you for correctness or how, uh,
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how uh, successfully you solved,
solved the problem or the task.
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I'm going to see how you can work
together and, uh, generate multiple
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ideas and solutions, even if they
don't work, uh, work out, because
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that's the whole goal of the exercise.
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So I think creating those safe spaces
that where when people are taking on.
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Challenges or tasks that are
beyond this current skill sets
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that there is going to be struggle.
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There's going to be failure and further
norming that, that that is actually
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a good thing for learning and growth.
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I think that sets up people in a
very different way then they can
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start to approach the same task.
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With a different set of expectations.
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And of course, this change doesn't
happen by, by saying this once, you
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know, you have to keep emphasizing
the same message again and again until
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people really start to believe that
that is how it is and perhaps you
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need to model it yourself as well.
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So there's a lot of effort that grows
into, , a sustained effort, I would say,
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that goes into designing these cultures
that are very supportive of productive
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failure types of training and learning.
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One of the things that I found myself
on a personal level was when I prepare
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for interviews, I do deep research.
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I think it's so helpful for me that
I prepare with questions in mind.
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It helps me to know that I'm gonna
be interviewing the author, read
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that, so I prepare with that in mind.
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When I was reading your book, I was
struck by that, that it's not just
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getting, giving them the questions
before the exam or before the test.
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It's actually giving them
the the questions before
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they've even seen the content.
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That's kind of the retrieval
practice, effect as well, a
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failed generation effect as well.
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Back to that one.
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And that's the idea that yes.
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. Even before you learn the content,
if I give you, and people will think
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that why, what's the point of giving?
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Giving you questions before
you even seen the content?
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And the idea is that yes, you may
not be able to solve or answer
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any of it, but just knowing
the questions help you orient.
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Yourself towards the text or
the video, whatever instruction
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you're going to receive.
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It just primes you to pay
attention to certain things.
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It gives you selection, mechanisms
to hone in on, oh, actually this part
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is important because here, there,
there was a question about that.
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So in that sense, yes, even if you fail
to answer a set of questions prior to
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learning something, it still helps you.
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Pay attention to critical aspects
during the learning event.
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And if you had one last piece
of advice for say, even adult
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learning, and by the way, I.
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Book is so useful for adult learners
on a personal level as well because
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it teaches you lots of models.
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It gives you huge view of the importance
of inte, inte intellectual humility as
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Oh,
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that you don't fall into
the Dunning Kruger effect
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well.
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anything thinking that you
know a lot of knowledge because
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the first thing you learn.
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When you read a book like
this is how little you do
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Hmm.
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but for say somebody designing a
facilitation of some sort with adult
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learners, perhaps they're doing a
corporate workshop, would be a good way
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to prime to use those four as in a way
before the session even takes place?
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Yeah.
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So I mean, it goes into the design
of the tasks and the activities.
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In the book I talk about how do you
design, so if you, if you are, you know,
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in an environment where you're teaching
facilitation skills and teams and so
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on and so forth, so how do you design.
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Activities or tasks that are
challenging enough for your employees
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who are about to learn this skill.
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So there are a set of design principles
that I talk about in the book that
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the task itself has to have certain
features, and the more those features
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are present, the more likely it'll be
a task that will work very well as a
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productive failure activity or a task.
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Right?
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So that's, that's one.
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, Second, I, I also talk in the book about
, how do you yourself facilitate somebody.
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Going through that task, how do you get
people to, explain what they're doing?
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How do you get people to challenge or
hack their own explanation, so to speak?
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Hack their own thinking, so to speak,
using counterfactual reasoning.
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Which is really powerful.
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So I talk about the interaction schemes
that you could put in place that
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are especially useful for productive
failure and and the final part is,
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like I said earlier, you've got to,
you, you've got to set the right social
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surroundings, the right context, the
right mindset and expectations so that
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people go into the activity that you're
designed for them knowing very well.
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That success is not the criteria
here, but trying many things and
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trying to see, trying to explore
and see how many things they could
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generate and learn from, because that
will prepare them for the learning.
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I think that's the idea, and once they
go in with that expectation and mindset,
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you're more likely to get more out of it.
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Wonderful.
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00:21:50,374 --> 00:21:54,644
And I'd have to recommend reading the
book to really get a grasp of that.
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00:21:54,644 --> 00:21:59,134
There is so much, you had my head going
down so many different rabbit holes
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00:21:59,134 --> 00:22:04,294
following up on studies, the amount
of research you share as well is just
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00:22:04,294 --> 00:22:07,354
fascinating and really, really accessible.
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You do a great job of
making this accessible.
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So I know, and I know that's difficult,
but, you do prepare us as the learner
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before for receiving this content as well.
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Manu.
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00:22:18,019 --> 00:22:20,179
So where's the best place
for people to find out more?
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00:22:20,179 --> 00:22:21,739
You have a website for the book.
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You have your own website.
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00:22:22,819 --> 00:22:23,359
Where is, where
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00:22:23,448 --> 00:22:25,968
You can Google Manu Kapur and
that will probably lead you
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to my website, manu Kapur.com.
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Or Productive Failure.
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00:22:29,218 --> 00:22:32,008
The book is on productive failure.com.
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00:22:32,468 --> 00:22:34,358
It's also available on Amazon.
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00:22:34,358 --> 00:22:37,578
You can view my TED Talks
and of course, my work sites.
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So yeah, I'm easy to find.
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00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,790
Author of Productive Failure
Unlocking Deeper Learning Through
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00:22:42,790 --> 00:22:44,540
the Science of Failing Manu Kapur.
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Thank you for joining us.
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00:22:45,924 --> 00:22:46,284
Thank you.
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00:22:46,524 --> 00:22:47,094
It was a pleasure.
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00:22:47,848 --> 00:22:50,038
Thanks for joining us on Inside Learning.
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00:22:50,098 --> 00:22:53,728
Inside Learning is brought to you by the
Learnovate centre in Trinity College.
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00:22:53,728 --> 00:22:57,838
Dublin Learnovate is funded by
Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland.
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00:22:57,928 --> 00:23:02,368
Visit learnovate centre.org to find out
more about our research on the science
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00:23:02,368 --> 00:23:03,928
of learning and the future of work.
