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This
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month's guest delivers a roadmap to
achieve business growth, transformation,
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and innovation through the use of
emerging technologies, but crucially
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in a human-centric manner that
benefits both business and humanity.
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Drawing hunter experience working with
organizations like Google, Yale, and
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the United Nations to offers a unique
blend of strategic guidance, ethical
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considerations, and practical application
to help organizations not just survive,
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but thrive, through bold and empathetic
leadership, author of six books.
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But today's focus is her latest What
Matters Next, A leader's guide to
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making human friendly tech decisions
in a world that's moving too fast.
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Kate O'Neil, welcome to Inside Learning.
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Thank you so much, Aidan.
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Thanks for having me.
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It is great to have you, and
I'm absolutely intrigued by your
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background, your depth of experience,
and your range of experience,
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including those six books I mentioned.
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Let's share a little bit
about that to our audience.
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Oh, well, thank you.
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It's been about, you know, 30, 30
years of practitioner experience that
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led to, well, I, not all those years
of practitioner experience before, 10
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years of professional speaking advising,
authoring, and that sort of thing.
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to that I was in, practice with
Toshiba and Netflix and, Hospital
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Corporation of America and
these very large organizations,
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but also very small startups.
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And so getting this very
interesting range of.
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The size and scale of an organization,
the different types of focus of the
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organization, the different cultures
within an organization, different
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industries, verticals, and it's been
really, really fun throughout my career
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to be the pattern recognition specialist.
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Be the person who's thinking
about, what does it take from that?
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That learning over here to apply
to get the kind of results that
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we need over in this space.
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And how do we do that in a way
that respects the people all
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throughout the organization and on
the other side of the transaction.
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Before we get into the book, let's just
share a little bit more about that because
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I. I, I really see that as a huge benefit
for people in the future when you have
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breadth of skillset rather than what
we've been really trained for, which is
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having this real strategic depth, like
go after something, become an expert.
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But the view you mentioned there,
like pattern recognition or sense
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making, and that only comes from
the kind of breadth that you have.
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Yeah, I think there's something about, you
know, people use the term T-shaped, right?
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Like, I think that's fair.
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You could be broad and have one
particular sort of focus area, or
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you could think about it as like
comb shaped in a sense, right?
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You've got the across the, across the
top sort of breadth, and then lots of
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different depths that you go through.
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But I actually think that the
real value comes more from like
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mesh shaped in a sense where you
are allowing yourself to become.
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Broad in multiple layered ways and explore
the depths of different kinds of things.
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So when you do that, you're able to
kind of form these really interesting,
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intricate layers of understanding that you
can carry with you into different spaces.
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And I think that is an incredible
asset, especially in a time when
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we're trying to figure out, you know,
what is a human advantage in an era
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where AI can do so much so fast.
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And seem so fluent and all of that.
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I think the thing that we really bring
so much of the time is showing up in
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a curious way, in a way that respects
the, the human experience in a way
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that has empathy and con contextual
awareness and, you know, can kind of
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think about not pattern recognition.
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In terms of data, because
computers can do that so well.
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But pattern recognition in terms of
context and empathy and experience and
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what does this feel like for people?
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So I think, you know, kind of building
that bridge and being the person who
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shows up, going like, alright, tell me
about what the user experience is like.
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Tell me what the customer
experience is like, the patient
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experience, the learner experience.
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That really is an incredible
advantage no matter what these days.
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And it's one of the huge benefits.
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As you know from writing where you
can go deep on a subject and then
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connect the dots between the other
subjects that you've done previously.
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And I think that's one of the things
I see certainly with people with the
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range that you have that in the past
that was kind of seen how could she
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possibly know so much about this?
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She's not an expert.
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And actually, as you said, that kind of
mesh is an advantage now, and for many
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of our audience who work in learning.
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In instilling that into students
of the future or students of the
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present, or even people relearning
at the moment is so important.
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I'd love for you to share
your thoughts on that.
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Yeah, I think it's really important.
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We've, we've spent so many years talking
about upskilling and reskilling and that
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those are really important concepts today.
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I've been talking more and
more these last few years.
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About, what I call
minimum viable skilling.
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Which is, I've been calling
that skill prompt skilling.
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So the the skill of
prompting, generative ai.
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One of the things that I think is
really key about prompting is that you
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are allowing yourself to articulate
the success conditions of what it
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is you're trying to achieve, right?
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You're saying, I would like for this
project to yield these kinds of results.
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I do not wanna see these
kinds of conditions.
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I don't want it to do this.
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I do want it to do this.
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And you're being very clear and it's.
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Explicit , and communicative about
what it is you're trying to achieve.
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I think the key there is you would
be doing the exact same thing
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if you were delegating that to a
person, right, to a human being.
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And it's allowing you to get very
crisp and articulate and in your head
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about, you know, the visualization of
what success looks like for something.
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And that is an incredible
skill no matter what.
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I think it's a really good way for
any organization of any kind to
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think about future readiness is to be
thinking about training and learning
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as being about how do we instill
the kind of skills that are broadly
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applicable across emerging technologies?
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Because all of the new agentic
tools also rely on prompting.
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so how do we, you know, kind of get
that basic modality in place that also
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happens to, you know, kind of foster
these great human to human communication
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skills and delegation skills that kind
of prepare you for management, that
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prepare you for leadership and so on.
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So these are the kinds of
things that I think that.
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today's learning officers and, and, , HR
people should be thinking about is
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how do we kind of get the most for the
work that we're doing to bring people
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along to a more future ready state.
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One of the things I thought about reading
your book was the importance of decision
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making, and I, it reminded me actually
'cause of your background in Netflix, the.
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Brilliant series Ozark that I'm sure like
absolutely brilliant series, extremely
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violent for those who haven't seen it.
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But, but really, really there's a,
a voiceover at one stage and what he
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talks about is how decision making,
good and bad really direct your life.
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Sliding doors, moments that
these decisions make you make.
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And when I think about that in
the context of what you said
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there about learning about.
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The world in a state.
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of flux, which it always has been, but
it seems a bit faster than ever before.
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That decision making
becomes absolutely key.
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And a brilliant lady we spoke to before
on the show is Ellen Langer, who was
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the first psychologist in Harvard
Business School, and she talked,
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she gave me this beautiful line.
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She said, everybody is caught up in
this fear of making the right decision.
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She said, but you need to
make the decision and make,
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then make the decision right.
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So the reason I say that is like not
making a decision is still a decision.
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And what I love about your doc, your book,
is you give us a schema or a framework
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to make better decisions and you talk
about the harms of action and inaction.
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And I'd love to start there 'cause it's
a great place to start with the book.
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yeah.
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I think that insight you just
shared is, is very related to
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that harms of action and inaction.
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Right?
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Because the, the idea is that I think
people get hamstrung by this decision
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that sits in front of them, right?
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Not really thinking about the fact
that this is just today's decision.
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This is just this decision.
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There's gonna be another decision
tomorrow and another decision after
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that no matter what you do, right?
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There's still going to be.
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decisions, and I think you, we,
underestimate the continuity of the
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sort of flow from previous decisions
into the current decisions that we make.
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And I think the, the more we see that
continuity, the more we recognize
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that through line, the less we feel.
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pressure of this one specific decision
and we can instead focus on making
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it the best way we can for now, while
respecting, as you pointed out, that
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harms of action and harms of inaction
is, you know, recognizing that if we
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have all of the information that we
think we're realistically going to get.
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Then we are delay, then our delaying on
making that decision is causing us harms
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of inaction or costing harms of inaction.
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And if we don't have all the a, the
information that we realistically
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think we can get, that we're going
to need to amass in order to make a
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more responsible decision, then we
are in invoking the harms of action.
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And it's, it's not a very.
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It's difficult model.
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I think it's one that's fairly easy to
ask yourself as sort of a sanity check in
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the moment of making a complex decision.
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And I think it's one that I've heard
back from, from readers has been really
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helpful and instructive in kind of
in framing up, like, realistically,
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do I have the information that's
going to allow me to navigate?
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I invoking harms of action or inaction
by making this decision in this
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particular way, knowing that tomorrow
is just going to bring another
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decision and the day after that.
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And that.
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comfort with decision making is something
that I really got from the book.
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But I loved what you talked about.
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You talked about a way to make better
strategic decisions, whether personally
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or for an organization is moving
from questions and everybody says,
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oh no, you're better off the better
question, the most beautiful question.
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And you kind of go, yeah, but move
from questions to insights And then to
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this term, I love bankable foresights.
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I am so glad you love that term.
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It's my favorite, my favorite
realization that I was able to put
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together for this book is, yeah,
it, it was like a gift to the world.
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I felt like this process of moving
from questions to insights is also
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no small thing because I think one of
the things I realized over the course
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of the years putting this together.
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Was that we have the wrong
idea about how we learn.
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We think we learn by asking
questions and getting answers and
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voila, like we're done, right?
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But actually what I point out is that
when we ask questions, what we get
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are partial answers, and in fact,
lots and lots of partial answers.
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In fact, everybody I ever asked
this question, like how many times
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have you ever asked a question
and gotten a different answer from
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every single person on your team?
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Everyone pretty much raises their
hand to that question because
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it's a universal phenomenon.
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We all know that that's true.
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There's the sort, the sort of,
metaphor of being on multiple
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sides of the elephant, right?
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We're all seeing these problems in
different ways, depending on what
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we've been tasked to do, what our
priorities are, what our values are,
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like, what we're, you know, what
our skills are, and then when we.
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Pull those partial answers together
and synthesize those into, you
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know, where is the common truth?
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those partial answers, but also like
what's the tension between them?
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Why?
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Why is someone saying this and
someone else is saying this?
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And those sound like two
very different answers.
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Why do they sound like different answers?
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Am I asking not the right question yet?
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Or you know, are we pointing at
something that maybe we just don't
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understand well enough, et cetera?
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there, we are actually able to synthesize.
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The most profound thing in my, in
my mind, in all of business wisdom
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is insights and insights are like
this incredibly crystallizing lens
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that help us as we accumulate them,
we can make more rapid decisions in
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ways that allow us to cut through
this process much more, efficiently.
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As I think about, one example of that is.
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You know, we all know that Apple
is a design centric company, right?
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That's one insight about Apple.
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And if you're an executive at Apple, you
know this insight in your bones, right?
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So if someone brings you a new feature
that they wanna roll out in the latest
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iOS upgrade and it's not well designed,
that is an instant answer that you
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can, you know, thumbs down that is not
ready to go like this in our company.
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That means go back and make
sure it's ready to be, it's
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designed well and goes out.
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Very simple analogy, but I think
in every organization there is
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something that feels as intrinsic
to the DNA as design is to Apple.
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And when you know those things,
you're able to make what I call
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ethically accelerated choices.
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Then the, the point that you brought
up, and that's my favorite thing, is
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out of the process of making decisions,
using insights you're making, what
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is a timely approach for today?
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Because you've chosen, this is how
we're gonna go forward today, and
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what it also gives you is this almost
like exhaust from that process.
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Is what is a bankable foresight.
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It's ma. It's saying, look, I don't have
to take action on this today, but I do
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have this sense that there's going to
be something that matters in the future.
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And if we triangulate today's
decision and the decisions
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we make every day after that.
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Toward the bankable
foresights we're accumulating.
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We are beginning to get a much
clearer sense of what the future is
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likely to be, and that whole shroud
of uncertainty starts to lift.
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It is no longer this entirely blackened
space that we just have no idea what's.
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Coming where we have actually built some
equity in the future, we have actually
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built some sense of there being a
scaffolding that we're leaning into, that
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we're kind of building into, and it is
no longer as mysterious and as daunting
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and as, hard to make decisions around.
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I absolutely love it,
and I envisaged it as.
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A like a wall in an organization,
ideally somewhere where everybody
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will see it around the coffee
machine or something like that.
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Or the water cooler if
anybody has one anymore,
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Yeah.
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somewhere where you collect
organizational knowledge or
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institutional knowledge because you
think about how many, it's happened.
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Everybody listening to this show, I'm sure
you've had an idea inside an organization.
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You leave and so does that idea.
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It's gone forever and I love the
idea of somewhere where this is a
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bank of knowledge and foresight.
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Attempts at stuff that we tried
before that might not, might
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have been too early because.
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Oftentimes we throw out so much
value that's inside the organization,
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bring in a new person, and they
discover it all over again.
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right.
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just, that's what I loved about that idea.
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Yeah.
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are also the idea that it's a, a
north star or it creates a North
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star because you talk about a
model that aligns several things.
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So focus, purpose, values, and
resources most importantly, on
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an organizational level, I'd love
you to share more about that.
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Yeah.
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So I think one of the things that, that,
that the bankable foresights and, and
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what you're just describing about that
shared sort of common knowledge, does
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for you is that it allows you to cut
through the decision making of, one of the
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things I talk about is this idea of the.
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preferred future and the probable future?
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Well, first of all, I should back up
and say one of the, the reframes that
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I'll offer anyone listening is I think
that we should get in the habit of
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talking about future in a plural sense.
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So futures plural as opposed to future.
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And when we do that, what we
recognize is that there is not
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one sort of deterministic line
that we're all following, and then
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we're just kind of marching toward.
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This inevitability, we're
shaping it every single day.
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And what we shape has this kind
of, open, aperture, sort of conical
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sort of visualization in my mind.
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Like that's how I think about it on the
now next continuum, where I had that
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drawn and almost like a bow tie, right?
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And you sort of open up toward this,
these incredibly, cascading futures.
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And what happens is when
you think to think about.
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Out of any given decision, out of
any given problem that faces the
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organization, you wanna ask, you know,
what is the most likely out of the
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scenarios that could happen, what is
the most likely scenario to happen?
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Right?
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Like, if we're intellectually honest
and truly objective, the thing that's
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most likely to happen is, you know,
increasing regulation around healthcare,
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or we're going to see a decrease in the
amount of people in registered in higher
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education, or whatever it might be.
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We have that, and then
what we have is our.
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most preferred outcome, what we would
most like to see happen because it
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aligns with what we believe matters
the most in how we, show up in the
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world and what we're trying to offer
with true value into the world.
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that incredibly shapes our next actions,
because now we know that all we really
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have to do is move the most likely
outcome toward our most probable, our
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most, sorry, most preferred outcome.
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Every single day, every single decision
we make, all the resources we're aligned,
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all the focus, all the purpose, all
the, all of everything we're trying to
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do, every single decision that we face.
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We were thinking, what is the action
I would most need to take, or the
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00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,560
decision I would most need to make that
would steer the inevitability toward
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what I most would like to see happen?
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And that's so crystallizing, I think,
for, for so many leaders faced with the
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complexity and the uncertainty and the,
changing values and changing priorities
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inside of their organization or industry.
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is all that it really boils down
to, and it's a very easy lens to
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apply, I think every single day.
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I love it and I actually love
it on a personal level as well.
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I kind of, when I read about this
part, I felt about the the bow tie.
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And it's like all these
possible futures exist.
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It's kind of like quantum physics
in a way where the, the way you
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focus, you will bring it into
attention, you bring it into reality.
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And I have this concept in my head that.
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Your vision is, or your, your, even your
articulating your, your goals is like
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shooting a harpoon into the future and
then actually bring it into realities, the
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harpoon part where you pull it back again,
so you pull it into reality and that
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well
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that's.
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Yeah, well that's, that's kind of the
way I visual, I'm a metaphorical thinker,
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so I thought about that as part of it.
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But the real, real important part of
the book and , we have to talk about
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this, is I love the fact that you always
put the human at the center of this so.
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We're at this point where the technology
on the planet has never been so good.
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We're at the verge of
quantum computing with ai.
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So, and, and I don't think
that people understand.
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00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,100
You mention it, the, the jumps.
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What are we at 16 jumps of
doublings of technological power.
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More probably.
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And now AI is getting better at a rate
that we just can't even comprehend.
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And we don't know what it'll
be like in a year or two,
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three years if we can power it,
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Yeah.
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if we have the power to.
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But in there is the technology will run
ahead, but we evolve very, very slowly.
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We can be lost in that evolution.
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And I think that's such an important
part of your writing and your talks
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and this book, and I'd love you
to share that as a real message
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to get through to our audience.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think one complimentary or sort
of companion piece to this is, , my
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TEDx talk that I did in October.
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It's called, , we Cannot
Leave Meaning Up to Machines.
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And that is the sort of the underlying
theme of that human friendly, human
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centered piece of what matters next
is that there's so much that I think
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00:20:25,005 --> 00:20:28,965
machines are so fantastic for, and
technology in general has been a
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00:20:28,965 --> 00:20:31,095
fascination of mine my entire life.
353
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And AI is something that I've been
thinking about and learning about
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and, and speaking about for, you
know, decades, not just the last, you
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know, five years or, or four years
since, , the chat GPT moment really
356
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opened up, , attention for most people.
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00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:48,680
But I think what, what happens with
large language models, for example,
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in specific, is that they are so
fluent and so good at simulating this.
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00:20:54,990 --> 00:21:01,350
Sense of the, the fluent use of language,
, to, to trigger our human, , sort of
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00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:05,010
mirror neurons or, you know, all of
our sort of human instincts of empathy
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to suggest that we are interacting
with an intelligence like our own,
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00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:10,600
maybe, you know, far beyond our own.
363
00:21:11,395 --> 00:21:15,085
And then we begin to treat it
with the kind of empathy that
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we would treat another person.
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00:21:16,895 --> 00:21:22,325
, That allows us to then sort of delegate
some of the responsibility for decision
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00:21:22,325 --> 00:21:24,725
making to this far greater intelligence.
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00:21:25,025 --> 00:21:30,755
It allows us to say like, oh, okay,
well let's share our innermost secrets
368
00:21:30,755 --> 00:21:34,795
and landscape, you know, for, , the
benefit of this, this thing to share
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00:21:34,795 --> 00:21:37,555
back with us what we should be doing,
how we should be making decisions.
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00:21:38,325 --> 00:21:42,495
All of these tools are incredibly
useful if we use them in the right
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00:21:42,495 --> 00:21:47,235
proportion, if we use them in the
ways that they're actually going to.
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Facilitate our wisdom and our meaning
making, but we are the meaning makers.
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Meaning is of, of a function
of human consciousness.
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It is a function of being a, being
in a body with senses and making
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00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:06,775
meaning out of the senses that we.
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00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:12,900
The, the data we gather through our senses
in our bodies and then having language
377
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:17,790
kind of connected with those experiences,
all of those components are a necessary
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00:22:17,790 --> 00:22:20,490
part of the way humans make meaning.
379
00:22:20,790 --> 00:22:26,100
Now, I have said many times like machines,
AI like may make its own meaning at some
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point in the future or may already be sort
of making some sort of primitive meaning
381
00:22:30,660 --> 00:22:35,100
on an AI level, but it will not be the
same kind of meaning that humans make.
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And I think we need to respect.
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That the human meaning that our
understanding of meaning has been at
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the core of all of culture for all
of human civilization, and it's part
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00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,830
of all of our history and legacy.
386
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,950
And I hope that it's something
that we are invested in handing
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down to generations ahead of us.
388
00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:58,980
So what we need to do is make sure that
we understand it in order to preserve
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it and protect it even as we use
increasingly sophisticated technology.
390
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To make ourselves more effective and
efficient and to further our agendas and
391
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:13,310
to further progress on behalf of humanity,
on behalf of the human experience.
392
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,840
Those are two trains that sort of
run in parallel, and we, we are not
393
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,320
riding the exact same train, but
we need to be very conscious of.
394
00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:24,730
What it is that drives human
experience and what it is that
395
00:23:24,730 --> 00:23:27,040
furthers technological progress.
396
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,310
And they are aligned, but
not necessarily the same.
397
00:23:30,340 --> 00:23:34,160
So I think those, those are,
, worthwhile thought exercises for
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00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,900
people to spend some time with.
399
00:23:37,390 --> 00:23:38,260
Absolutely beautiful.
400
00:23:38,260 --> 00:23:41,170
I have loads more questions, but I
actually loved what you just said,
401
00:23:41,170 --> 00:23:45,250
and it's a lovely message to, to land
the ship on for people who want to
402
00:23:45,250 --> 00:23:49,180
find out and you're I the name Kate
O'Neill, firstly Irish background.
403
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:49,790
a little bit.
404
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,340
Apart from the name and, uh,
is where people can find you,
405
00:23:56,340 --> 00:23:57,780
find out about your work.
406
00:23:57,780 --> 00:23:59,910
You do workshops and
keynotes all over the world.
407
00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:00,900
Where's the best place, Kate?
408
00:24:01,755 --> 00:24:03,645
Koko Insights is my company.
409
00:24:03,895 --> 00:24:04,285
Yeah.
410
00:24:04,285 --> 00:24:07,915
And, and it has information about what
matters next, as well as my other books
411
00:24:07,915 --> 00:24:10,615
as well as my speaking, my advisory work.
412
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,590
And yeah, it has been an incredible, the
privilege of a lifetime to get to work
413
00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:19,750
with so many companies at, so at a high
level, but I also really enjoy just the
414
00:24:19,750 --> 00:24:25,355
fact that people of all kinds, people
across every organization in every role
415
00:24:25,955 --> 00:24:29,735
are really struggling to understand
how to bring themselves to this moment.
416
00:24:29,735 --> 00:24:33,725
And I feel that I'm hearing from people
that they're getting a lot of value
417
00:24:33,725 --> 00:24:35,045
out of reading this book as well.
418
00:24:35,045 --> 00:24:37,115
So I really hope that
that's true for folks.
419
00:24:37,535 --> 00:24:40,985
Please feel free to reach out to me
on LinkedIn or wherever you find me.
420
00:24:41,035 --> 00:24:43,435
I'd love to hear what
resonates with you about it.
421
00:24:43,675 --> 00:24:46,105
So thank you, Aidan again
for having me on the show.
422
00:24:46,105 --> 00:24:46,975
I appreciate that.
423
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,060
Absolute pleasure.
424
00:24:48,060 --> 00:24:51,300
And I have, I had an idea just all of
a sudden, I remember you shared, you
425
00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:56,805
were doing a talk for a company and they
gifted you with your own Wheaties box, so
426
00:24:56,815 --> 00:24:57,495
it in the background.
427
00:24:57,785 --> 00:24:58,860
behind, so.
428
00:25:00,030 --> 00:25:00,930
Ask our audience.
429
00:25:00,930 --> 00:25:01,170
Okay?
430
00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:03,630
So maybe you'll tell us about that,
but I'm gonna ask your co audience
431
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,350
for anybody who's first to email
us in at the Learnovate Center
432
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:09,450
and tell us the colour of the box.
433
00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:12,570
I have a copy of Kate's book,
what Matters Next for you.
434
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:12,930
Okay?
435
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,640
So that's, that's the competition.
436
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,820
Maybe you'll tell it's such, it was
such a cool gift from the client.
437
00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:18,630
it really was.
438
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:20,340
Thank you General Mills for that.
439
00:25:20,580 --> 00:25:23,460
I, you know, every once in a while
as a speaker you get this lovely
440
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:26,370
speaker gift and it's just like,
well, you already paid me, but you're
441
00:25:26,370 --> 00:25:27,600
now, you're giving me a gift too.
442
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,350
And it is so generous and kind for,
for an organization to think that way.
443
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:35,180
But yes, this is a life making,
gift right here, so I'm very
444
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:35,570
Brilliant.
445
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:36,200
with that.
446
00:25:36,650 --> 00:25:37,490
Absolutely brilliant.
447
00:25:37,550 --> 00:25:39,230
Author of What Matters Next.
448
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,100
Kate O'Neill.
449
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:40,520
Thank you.
450
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,270
for joining us.
451
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:42,440
Thank you, Aidan.
00:00:00,276 --> 00:00:00,516
This
2
00:00:00,516 --> 00:00:04,686
month's guest delivers a roadmap to
achieve business growth, transformation,
3
00:00:04,686 --> 00:00:08,586
and innovation through the use of
emerging technologies, but crucially
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in a human-centric manner that
benefits both business and humanity.
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Drawing hunter experience working with
organizations like Google, Yale, and
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the United Nations to offers a unique
blend of strategic guidance, ethical
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considerations, and practical application
to help organizations not just survive,
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but thrive, through bold and empathetic
leadership, author of six books.
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But today's focus is her latest What
Matters Next, A leader's guide to
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making human friendly tech decisions
in a world that's moving too fast.
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Kate O'Neil, welcome to Inside Learning.
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Thank you so much, Aidan.
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Thanks for having me.
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It is great to have you, and
I'm absolutely intrigued by your
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background, your depth of experience,
and your range of experience,
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including those six books I mentioned.
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Let's share a little bit
about that to our audience.
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Oh, well, thank you.
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It's been about, you know, 30, 30
years of practitioner experience that
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led to, well, I, not all those years
of practitioner experience before, 10
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years of professional speaking advising,
authoring, and that sort of thing.
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to that I was in, practice with
Toshiba and Netflix and, Hospital
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Corporation of America and
these very large organizations,
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but also very small startups.
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And so getting this very
interesting range of.
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The size and scale of an organization,
the different types of focus of the
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organization, the different cultures
within an organization, different
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industries, verticals, and it's been
really, really fun throughout my career
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to be the pattern recognition specialist.
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Be the person who's thinking
about, what does it take from that?
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That learning over here to apply
to get the kind of results that
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we need over in this space.
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And how do we do that in a way
that respects the people all
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throughout the organization and on
the other side of the transaction.
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Before we get into the book, let's just
share a little bit more about that because
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I. I, I really see that as a huge benefit
for people in the future when you have
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breadth of skillset rather than what
we've been really trained for, which is
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having this real strategic depth, like
go after something, become an expert.
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But the view you mentioned there,
like pattern recognition or sense
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making, and that only comes from
the kind of breadth that you have.
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Yeah, I think there's something about, you
know, people use the term T-shaped, right?
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Like, I think that's fair.
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You could be broad and have one
particular sort of focus area, or
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you could think about it as like
comb shaped in a sense, right?
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You've got the across the, across the
top sort of breadth, and then lots of
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different depths that you go through.
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But I actually think that the
real value comes more from like
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mesh shaped in a sense where you
are allowing yourself to become.
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Broad in multiple layered ways and explore
the depths of different kinds of things.
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So when you do that, you're able to
kind of form these really interesting,
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intricate layers of understanding that you
can carry with you into different spaces.
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And I think that is an incredible
asset, especially in a time when
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we're trying to figure out, you know,
what is a human advantage in an era
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where AI can do so much so fast.
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And seem so fluent and all of that.
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I think the thing that we really bring
so much of the time is showing up in
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a curious way, in a way that respects
the, the human experience in a way
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that has empathy and con contextual
awareness and, you know, can kind of
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think about not pattern recognition.
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In terms of data, because
computers can do that so well.
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But pattern recognition in terms of
context and empathy and experience and
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what does this feel like for people?
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So I think, you know, kind of building
that bridge and being the person who
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shows up, going like, alright, tell me
about what the user experience is like.
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Tell me what the customer
experience is like, the patient
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experience, the learner experience.
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That really is an incredible
advantage no matter what these days.
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And it's one of the huge benefits.
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As you know from writing where you
can go deep on a subject and then
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connect the dots between the other
subjects that you've done previously.
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And I think that's one of the things
I see certainly with people with the
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range that you have that in the past
that was kind of seen how could she
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possibly know so much about this?
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She's not an expert.
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And actually, as you said, that kind of
mesh is an advantage now, and for many
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of our audience who work in learning.
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In instilling that into students
of the future or students of the
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present, or even people relearning
at the moment is so important.
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I'd love for you to share
your thoughts on that.
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Yeah, I think it's really important.
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We've, we've spent so many years talking
about upskilling and reskilling and that
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those are really important concepts today.
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I've been talking more and
more these last few years.
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About, what I call
minimum viable skilling.
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Which is, I've been calling
that skill prompt skilling.
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So the the skill of
prompting, generative ai.
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One of the things that I think is
really key about prompting is that you
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are allowing yourself to articulate
the success conditions of what it
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is you're trying to achieve, right?
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You're saying, I would like for this
project to yield these kinds of results.
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I do not wanna see these
kinds of conditions.
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I don't want it to do this.
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I do want it to do this.
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And you're being very clear and it's.
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Explicit , and communicative about
what it is you're trying to achieve.
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I think the key there is you would
be doing the exact same thing
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if you were delegating that to a
person, right, to a human being.
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And it's allowing you to get very
crisp and articulate and in your head
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about, you know, the visualization of
what success looks like for something.
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And that is an incredible
skill no matter what.
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I think it's a really good way for
any organization of any kind to
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think about future readiness is to be
thinking about training and learning
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as being about how do we instill
the kind of skills that are broadly
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applicable across emerging technologies?
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Because all of the new agentic
tools also rely on prompting.
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so how do we, you know, kind of get
that basic modality in place that also
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happens to, you know, kind of foster
these great human to human communication
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skills and delegation skills that kind
of prepare you for management, that
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prepare you for leadership and so on.
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So these are the kinds of
things that I think that.
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today's learning officers and, and, , HR
people should be thinking about is
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how do we kind of get the most for the
work that we're doing to bring people
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along to a more future ready state.
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One of the things I thought about reading
your book was the importance of decision
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making, and I, it reminded me actually
'cause of your background in Netflix, the.
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Brilliant series Ozark that I'm sure like
absolutely brilliant series, extremely
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violent for those who haven't seen it.
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But, but really, really there's a,
a voiceover at one stage and what he
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talks about is how decision making,
good and bad really direct your life.
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Sliding doors, moments that
these decisions make you make.
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And when I think about that in
the context of what you said
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there about learning about.
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The world in a state.
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of flux, which it always has been, but
it seems a bit faster than ever before.
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That decision making
becomes absolutely key.
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And a brilliant lady we spoke to before
on the show is Ellen Langer, who was
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the first psychologist in Harvard
Business School, and she talked,
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she gave me this beautiful line.
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She said, everybody is caught up in
this fear of making the right decision.
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She said, but you need to
make the decision and make,
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then make the decision right.
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So the reason I say that is like not
making a decision is still a decision.
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And what I love about your doc, your book,
is you give us a schema or a framework
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to make better decisions and you talk
about the harms of action and inaction.
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And I'd love to start there 'cause it's
a great place to start with the book.
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yeah.
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I think that insight you just
shared is, is very related to
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that harms of action and inaction.
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Right?
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Because the, the idea is that I think
people get hamstrung by this decision
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that sits in front of them, right?
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Not really thinking about the fact
that this is just today's decision.
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This is just this decision.
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There's gonna be another decision
tomorrow and another decision after
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that no matter what you do, right?
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There's still going to be.
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decisions, and I think you, we,
underestimate the continuity of the
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sort of flow from previous decisions
into the current decisions that we make.
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And I think the, the more we see that
continuity, the more we recognize
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that through line, the less we feel.
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pressure of this one specific decision
and we can instead focus on making
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it the best way we can for now, while
respecting, as you pointed out, that
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harms of action and harms of inaction
is, you know, recognizing that if we
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have all of the information that we
think we're realistically going to get.
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Then we are delay, then our delaying on
making that decision is causing us harms
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of inaction or costing harms of inaction.
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And if we don't have all the a, the
information that we realistically
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think we can get, that we're going
to need to amass in order to make a
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more responsible decision, then we
are in invoking the harms of action.
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And it's, it's not a very.
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It's difficult model.
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I think it's one that's fairly easy to
ask yourself as sort of a sanity check in
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the moment of making a complex decision.
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And I think it's one that I've heard
back from, from readers has been really
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helpful and instructive in kind of
in framing up, like, realistically,
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do I have the information that's
going to allow me to navigate?
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I invoking harms of action or inaction
by making this decision in this
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particular way, knowing that tomorrow
is just going to bring another
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decision and the day after that.
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And that.
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comfort with decision making is something
that I really got from the book.
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But I loved what you talked about.
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You talked about a way to make better
strategic decisions, whether personally
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or for an organization is moving
from questions and everybody says,
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oh no, you're better off the better
question, the most beautiful question.
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And you kind of go, yeah, but move
from questions to insights And then to
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this term, I love bankable foresights.
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I am so glad you love that term.
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It's my favorite, my favorite
realization that I was able to put
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together for this book is, yeah,
it, it was like a gift to the world.
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I felt like this process of moving
from questions to insights is also
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no small thing because I think one of
the things I realized over the course
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of the years putting this together.
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Was that we have the wrong
idea about how we learn.
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We think we learn by asking
questions and getting answers and
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voila, like we're done, right?
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But actually what I point out is that
when we ask questions, what we get
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are partial answers, and in fact,
lots and lots of partial answers.
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In fact, everybody I ever asked
this question, like how many times
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have you ever asked a question
and gotten a different answer from
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every single person on your team?
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Everyone pretty much raises their
hand to that question because
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it's a universal phenomenon.
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We all know that that's true.
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There's the sort, the sort of,
metaphor of being on multiple
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sides of the elephant, right?
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We're all seeing these problems in
different ways, depending on what
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we've been tasked to do, what our
priorities are, what our values are,
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like, what we're, you know, what
our skills are, and then when we.
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Pull those partial answers together
and synthesize those into, you
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know, where is the common truth?
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those partial answers, but also like
what's the tension between them?
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Why?
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Why is someone saying this and
someone else is saying this?
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And those sound like two
very different answers.
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Why do they sound like different answers?
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Am I asking not the right question yet?
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Or you know, are we pointing at
something that maybe we just don't
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understand well enough, et cetera?
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there, we are actually able to synthesize.
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The most profound thing in my, in
my mind, in all of business wisdom
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is insights and insights are like
this incredibly crystallizing lens
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that help us as we accumulate them,
we can make more rapid decisions in
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ways that allow us to cut through
this process much more, efficiently.
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As I think about, one example of that is.
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You know, we all know that Apple
is a design centric company, right?
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That's one insight about Apple.
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And if you're an executive at Apple, you
know this insight in your bones, right?
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So if someone brings you a new feature
that they wanna roll out in the latest
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iOS upgrade and it's not well designed,
that is an instant answer that you
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can, you know, thumbs down that is not
ready to go like this in our company.
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That means go back and make
sure it's ready to be, it's
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designed well and goes out.
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Very simple analogy, but I think
in every organization there is
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something that feels as intrinsic
to the DNA as design is to Apple.
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And when you know those things,
you're able to make what I call
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ethically accelerated choices.
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Then the, the point that you brought
up, and that's my favorite thing, is
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out of the process of making decisions,
using insights you're making, what
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is a timely approach for today?
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Because you've chosen, this is how
we're gonna go forward today, and
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what it also gives you is this almost
like exhaust from that process.
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Is what is a bankable foresight.
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It's ma. It's saying, look, I don't have
to take action on this today, but I do
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have this sense that there's going to
be something that matters in the future.
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And if we triangulate today's
decision and the decisions
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we make every day after that.
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Toward the bankable
foresights we're accumulating.
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We are beginning to get a much
clearer sense of what the future is
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likely to be, and that whole shroud
of uncertainty starts to lift.
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It is no longer this entirely blackened
space that we just have no idea what's.
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Coming where we have actually built some
equity in the future, we have actually
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built some sense of there being a
scaffolding that we're leaning into, that
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we're kind of building into, and it is
no longer as mysterious and as daunting
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and as, hard to make decisions around.
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I absolutely love it,
and I envisaged it as.
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A like a wall in an organization,
ideally somewhere where everybody
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will see it around the coffee
machine or something like that.
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Or the water cooler if
anybody has one anymore,
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Yeah.
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somewhere where you collect
organizational knowledge or
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institutional knowledge because you
think about how many, it's happened.
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Everybody listening to this show, I'm sure
you've had an idea inside an organization.
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You leave and so does that idea.
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It's gone forever and I love the
idea of somewhere where this is a
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bank of knowledge and foresight.
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Attempts at stuff that we tried
before that might not, might
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have been too early because.
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Oftentimes we throw out so much
value that's inside the organization,
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bring in a new person, and they
discover it all over again.
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right.
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just, that's what I loved about that idea.
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Yeah.
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are also the idea that it's a, a
north star or it creates a North
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star because you talk about a
model that aligns several things.
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So focus, purpose, values, and
resources most importantly, on
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an organizational level, I'd love
you to share more about that.
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Yeah.
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So I think one of the things that, that,
that the bankable foresights and, and
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what you're just describing about that
shared sort of common knowledge, does
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for you is that it allows you to cut
through the decision making of, one of the
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things I talk about is this idea of the.
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preferred future and the probable future?
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Well, first of all, I should back up
and say one of the, the reframes that
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I'll offer anyone listening is I think
that we should get in the habit of
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talking about future in a plural sense.
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So futures plural as opposed to future.
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And when we do that, what we
recognize is that there is not
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one sort of deterministic line
that we're all following, and then
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we're just kind of marching toward.
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This inevitability, we're
shaping it every single day.
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And what we shape has this kind
of, open, aperture, sort of conical
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sort of visualization in my mind.
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Like that's how I think about it on the
now next continuum, where I had that
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drawn and almost like a bow tie, right?
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And you sort of open up toward this,
these incredibly, cascading futures.
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And what happens is when
you think to think about.
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Out of any given decision, out of
any given problem that faces the
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organization, you wanna ask, you know,
what is the most likely out of the
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scenarios that could happen, what is
the most likely scenario to happen?
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Right?
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Like, if we're intellectually honest
and truly objective, the thing that's
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most likely to happen is, you know,
increasing regulation around healthcare,
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or we're going to see a decrease in the
amount of people in registered in higher
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education, or whatever it might be.
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We have that, and then
what we have is our.
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most preferred outcome, what we would
most like to see happen because it
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aligns with what we believe matters
the most in how we, show up in the
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world and what we're trying to offer
with true value into the world.
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that incredibly shapes our next actions,
because now we know that all we really
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have to do is move the most likely
outcome toward our most probable, our
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most, sorry, most preferred outcome.
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Every single day, every single decision
we make, all the resources we're aligned,
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all the focus, all the purpose, all
the, all of everything we're trying to
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do, every single decision that we face.
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We were thinking, what is the action
I would most need to take, or the
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decision I would most need to make that
would steer the inevitability toward
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what I most would like to see happen?
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And that's so crystallizing, I think,
for, for so many leaders faced with the
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complexity and the uncertainty and the,
changing values and changing priorities
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inside of their organization or industry.
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is all that it really boils down
to, and it's a very easy lens to
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apply, I think every single day.
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I love it and I actually love
it on a personal level as well.
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I kind of, when I read about this
part, I felt about the the bow tie.
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And it's like all these
possible futures exist.
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It's kind of like quantum physics
in a way where the, the way you
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focus, you will bring it into
attention, you bring it into reality.
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And I have this concept in my head that.
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Your vision is, or your, your, even your
articulating your, your goals is like
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shooting a harpoon into the future and
then actually bring it into realities, the
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harpoon part where you pull it back again,
so you pull it into reality and that
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well
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that's.
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Yeah, well that's, that's kind of the
way I visual, I'm a metaphorical thinker,
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so I thought about that as part of it.
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But the real, real important part of
the book and , we have to talk about
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this, is I love the fact that you always
put the human at the center of this so.
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We're at this point where the technology
on the planet has never been so good.
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We're at the verge of
quantum computing with ai.
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So, and, and I don't think
that people understand.
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00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,100
You mention it, the, the jumps.
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What are we at 16 jumps of
doublings of technological power.
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More probably.
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And now AI is getting better at a rate
that we just can't even comprehend.
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And we don't know what it'll
be like in a year or two,
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three years if we can power it,
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Yeah.
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if we have the power to.
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But in there is the technology will run
ahead, but we evolve very, very slowly.
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We can be lost in that evolution.
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And I think that's such an important
part of your writing and your talks
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and this book, and I'd love you
to share that as a real message
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to get through to our audience.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think one complimentary or sort
of companion piece to this is, , my
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TEDx talk that I did in October.
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It's called, , we Cannot
Leave Meaning Up to Machines.
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And that is the sort of the underlying
theme of that human friendly, human
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centered piece of what matters next
is that there's so much that I think
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machines are so fantastic for, and
technology in general has been a
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fascination of mine my entire life.
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And AI is something that I've been
thinking about and learning about
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and, and speaking about for, you
know, decades, not just the last, you
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know, five years or, or four years
since, , the chat GPT moment really
356
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opened up, , attention for most people.
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00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:48,680
But I think what, what happens with
large language models, for example,
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in specific, is that they are so
fluent and so good at simulating this.
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Sense of the, the fluent use of language,
, to, to trigger our human, , sort of
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mirror neurons or, you know, all of
our sort of human instincts of empathy
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to suggest that we are interacting
with an intelligence like our own,
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maybe, you know, far beyond our own.
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00:21:11,395 --> 00:21:15,085
And then we begin to treat it
with the kind of empathy that
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we would treat another person.
365
00:21:16,895 --> 00:21:22,325
, That allows us to then sort of delegate
some of the responsibility for decision
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making to this far greater intelligence.
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00:21:25,025 --> 00:21:30,755
It allows us to say like, oh, okay,
well let's share our innermost secrets
368
00:21:30,755 --> 00:21:34,795
and landscape, you know, for, , the
benefit of this, this thing to share
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00:21:34,795 --> 00:21:37,555
back with us what we should be doing,
how we should be making decisions.
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00:21:38,325 --> 00:21:42,495
All of these tools are incredibly
useful if we use them in the right
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proportion, if we use them in the
ways that they're actually going to.
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Facilitate our wisdom and our meaning
making, but we are the meaning makers.
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Meaning is of, of a function
of human consciousness.
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It is a function of being a, being
in a body with senses and making
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00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:06,775
meaning out of the senses that we.
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The, the data we gather through our senses
in our bodies and then having language
377
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kind of connected with those experiences,
all of those components are a necessary
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part of the way humans make meaning.
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00:22:20,790 --> 00:22:26,100
Now, I have said many times like machines,
AI like may make its own meaning at some
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point in the future or may already be sort
of making some sort of primitive meaning
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on an AI level, but it will not be the
same kind of meaning that humans make.
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And I think we need to respect.
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That the human meaning that our
understanding of meaning has been at
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the core of all of culture for all
of human civilization, and it's part
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of all of our history and legacy.
386
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,950
And I hope that it's something
that we are invested in handing
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down to generations ahead of us.
388
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So what we need to do is make sure that
we understand it in order to preserve
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it and protect it even as we use
increasingly sophisticated technology.
390
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To make ourselves more effective and
efficient and to further our agendas and
391
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to further progress on behalf of humanity,
on behalf of the human experience.
392
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,840
Those are two trains that sort of
run in parallel, and we, we are not
393
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,320
riding the exact same train, but
we need to be very conscious of.
394
00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:24,730
What it is that drives human
experience and what it is that
395
00:23:24,730 --> 00:23:27,040
furthers technological progress.
396
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,310
And they are aligned, but
not necessarily the same.
397
00:23:30,340 --> 00:23:34,160
So I think those, those are,
, worthwhile thought exercises for
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00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,900
people to spend some time with.
399
00:23:37,390 --> 00:23:38,260
Absolutely beautiful.
400
00:23:38,260 --> 00:23:41,170
I have loads more questions, but I
actually loved what you just said,
401
00:23:41,170 --> 00:23:45,250
and it's a lovely message to, to land
the ship on for people who want to
402
00:23:45,250 --> 00:23:49,180
find out and you're I the name Kate
O'Neill, firstly Irish background.
403
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:49,790
a little bit.
404
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,340
Apart from the name and, uh,
is where people can find you,
405
00:23:56,340 --> 00:23:57,780
find out about your work.
406
00:23:57,780 --> 00:23:59,910
You do workshops and
keynotes all over the world.
407
00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:00,900
Where's the best place, Kate?
408
00:24:01,755 --> 00:24:03,645
Koko Insights is my company.
409
00:24:03,895 --> 00:24:04,285
Yeah.
410
00:24:04,285 --> 00:24:07,915
And, and it has information about what
matters next, as well as my other books
411
00:24:07,915 --> 00:24:10,615
as well as my speaking, my advisory work.
412
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,590
And yeah, it has been an incredible, the
privilege of a lifetime to get to work
413
00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:19,750
with so many companies at, so at a high
level, but I also really enjoy just the
414
00:24:19,750 --> 00:24:25,355
fact that people of all kinds, people
across every organization in every role
415
00:24:25,955 --> 00:24:29,735
are really struggling to understand
how to bring themselves to this moment.
416
00:24:29,735 --> 00:24:33,725
And I feel that I'm hearing from people
that they're getting a lot of value
417
00:24:33,725 --> 00:24:35,045
out of reading this book as well.
418
00:24:35,045 --> 00:24:37,115
So I really hope that
that's true for folks.
419
00:24:37,535 --> 00:24:40,985
Please feel free to reach out to me
on LinkedIn or wherever you find me.
420
00:24:41,035 --> 00:24:43,435
I'd love to hear what
resonates with you about it.
421
00:24:43,675 --> 00:24:46,105
So thank you, Aidan again
for having me on the show.
422
00:24:46,105 --> 00:24:46,975
I appreciate that.
423
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,060
Absolute pleasure.
424
00:24:48,060 --> 00:24:51,300
And I have, I had an idea just all of
a sudden, I remember you shared, you
425
00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:56,805
were doing a talk for a company and they
gifted you with your own Wheaties box, so
426
00:24:56,815 --> 00:24:57,495
it in the background.
427
00:24:57,785 --> 00:24:58,860
behind, so.
428
00:25:00,030 --> 00:25:00,930
Ask our audience.
429
00:25:00,930 --> 00:25:01,170
Okay?
430
00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:03,630
So maybe you'll tell us about that,
but I'm gonna ask your co audience
431
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,350
for anybody who's first to email
us in at the Learnovate Center
432
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:09,450
and tell us the colour of the box.
433
00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:12,570
I have a copy of Kate's book,
what Matters Next for you.
434
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:12,930
Okay?
435
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,640
So that's, that's the competition.
436
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,820
Maybe you'll tell it's such, it was
such a cool gift from the client.
437
00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:18,630
it really was.
438
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:20,340
Thank you General Mills for that.
439
00:25:20,580 --> 00:25:23,460
I, you know, every once in a while
as a speaker you get this lovely
440
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:26,370
speaker gift and it's just like,
well, you already paid me, but you're
441
00:25:26,370 --> 00:25:27,600
now, you're giving me a gift too.
442
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,350
And it is so generous and kind for,
for an organization to think that way.
443
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:35,180
But yes, this is a life making,
gift right here, so I'm very
444
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:35,570
Brilliant.
445
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:36,200
with that.
446
00:25:36,650 --> 00:25:37,490
Absolutely brilliant.
447
00:25:37,550 --> 00:25:39,230
Author of What Matters Next.
448
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,100
Kate O'Neill.
449
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:40,520
Thank you.
450
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,270
for joining us.
451
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:42,440
Thank you, Aidan.
