WEBVTT
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Here's what's coming up in this episode of Critical Careers.
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I think worth, knowing your worth and salary aren't always aligned, and that isn't always somebody's marker for whether they're being valued.
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There's definitely a need for employers to understand what feeling valued is when you're looking at underrepresented groups.
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How can we give people the platform so they can be the role models for the next generation?
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How can we ensure they're they're comfortable in the industry?
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You know, you do still hear some not great stories from within the industry.
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So how do we as males make it a welcoming place for females?
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Like, what can I do?
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This episode of the Critical Careers Podcast is sponsored by CBRE, AVK, Evershed Sutherland, JLL, and Mace Construct.
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Welcome to the Critical Careers Podcast.
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I'm Lizzie McDowell.
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On today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Andrew Davis from Data X Connect and Sarah Davenport from Capstone Recruitment.
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On today's episode, we discuss the value gap.
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Behind every salary is a story.
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We explore how confidence, recognition, and opportunity shape careers and why fairness matters just as much as pay.
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I hope you enjoy.
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Thank you so much for joining me.
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Really appreciate it on this important episode.
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Yeah, so we'll just kick off really.
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So wanting to just discuss a little bit about female expectations, about salary, how we're profiled in the industry, and obviously could not be joined by two more um knowledgeable people really who are at the forefront of this issue.
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So really appreciate it.
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So Andy, if we could just kick off with you.
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Obviously, Datorex have released their salary survey.
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Um is it the it's the third edition?
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That is a very good question.
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I believe it's second or third edition.
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Yeah.
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What are your initial thoughts on the on the survey overall and how has it been received?
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And it has it changed your expectations or where are you up to?
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I think it's been received really well.
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I think it is every year, and you try and do a little bit more every year.
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So I think some of the tweaks we've made this year, which were based on feedback last year, have have gone down well.
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I was thinking about it, it hasn't really surprised me, which I guess is kind of says that not a lot's really changing.
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You know, you do see things changing.
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I think there's definitely more young people in the industry always say events are a great way.
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We've just had DCD London, and if I used to be the youngest in the room, now I'm not, which is a really good thing.
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I think gender is changing, but we'll talk about that in more detail.
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There's so much more we need to do.
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Um, but overall, the sentiment's largely the same.
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I think people are looking for career development, there are uh discrepancies in pay, there's low geo geographical challenges.
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The US and Europe bring quite different dynamics, which is interesting.
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But overall, I think I wasn't really that surprised.
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The area that I really wanted to look into this year, which we did, was where people are coming from.
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So, what industries are people coming into the sector from?
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Because I've been spouting about it for years, that we need to look outside the industry.
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And I'm sure you see the same like you can't find people with five years' experience every time you have a vacancy.
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So looking at that and what sectors they come through, I think was really interesting, and that hopefully gives some good data to internal teams to look for when they're hiring.
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So, Sarah, um, women are appear do appear to be negatively impacted um when it becomes to salary and progression.
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Um, what are your thoughts from speaking to the women that you've met and then who you recruit into the sector?
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What are your feelings with regards to that?
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It's interesting that that came out in your survey as well.
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That's certainly something that we hear consistently.
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Um whether it's because of the most obvious might be around maternity leave, maternity return.
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Um, you know, if you've had one to three children, you know, that could be up to three years.
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So when you're coming back, you could be up to three years behind a male peer.
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And sometimes when you come back, you might be limited in terms of some people choose or need to work part-time.
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So there's an element of reducing your earning ability there.
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But then I think that there are deeper factors in terms of representation within all organizations.
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Women aren't historically the obvious choice for promotion in the natural way that that men can be.
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I'm really conscious, by the way, this is a massive generalization, which really panics me when I'm talking about it.
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Um, but this is anecdotally from talking to people that that we've been working with.
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It's interesting, really, because I suppose, yes, you're right, there are certain biological uh um differences.
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So women, you know, they they have they take maternity leave naturally.
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Um and then I suppose that influ inf impacts your confidence uh as a woman.
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Um so understanding that what is your worth, what are you when you're returning to work, knowing your worth, what advice do you give to women, Andy, with regards to their rejoining after maybe a a period of um parental responsibility?
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How how do women know their worth and and and and the link of that with salary?
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What what what do you see?
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Firstly, on the point you made around the gender discrepancy, I think it was 50% um felt that gender had impacted them and 97% of there was negative.
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I think do you I don't know, I was thinking about it.
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Like, is it because females tend to stay in their roles longer?
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And you know how it is when you're hiring.
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A lot of new hires get paid more than existing because they don't review.
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So I didn't know if that was one of the reasons.
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And we need to look into that.
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That's one of those data points where you kind of you see you get the answer, we don't get the detail if you look at the detail behind it.
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I think with regards to knowing your worth, I think that works both ways, doesn't it?
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Like your employer demonstrating your worth to you.
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Because I don't think a lot of employers are great at saying you're really valued, this is the impact you're having, especially in this industry where it's so fast.
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Like I always talk about speedless industry.
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Everyone's focused on execution and kind of the end goal.
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Everyone's there trying to deliver something in a crop in a quite crazy time scale, and it doesn't always give you the opportunity to sit down with your your staff and say, look, you are valued.
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This is what you've given to us as an organization, this is the impact you've had on whatever the project is or whatever your role is.
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So I think there's loads of different variables you need to look at.
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Advice-wise, I think it's difficult because a lot of it comes down probably to confidence, doesn't it?
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And like, are you confident enough to sit in front of somebody and say you're valued?
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I know personally that that's a journey you go on in your career, where at some point we were just talking about how long we've been in recruitment and it's it's quite a long time.
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And when you start your career, you don't really have the confidence because you don't feel like you're in a position to be able to say to somebody, look, I know I'm doing a really good job here, and this is an example of it.
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So maybe kind of advising individuals that you know you are doing a good job and give them the confidence to sit in front of their line manager or whoever it might be, but it is difficult, and there's probably a training point in there.
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There probably is a training point from an employment perspective around giving people the freedom and the confidence to talk to their line manager or whoever they need to talk to in that organisation.
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I think as well, that's why we come back to salary because it is an indicator, isn't it?
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That's your that's your value because you can put that metric on it.
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But uh for women that are feeling less undervalued, um, there's a question there of how do we recognise that value through more sort of data points.
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What are your thoughts on that, Sarah?
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It's interesting, and actually to your point around women tend to be in roles longer, and therefore maybe that's why there's a natural um discrepancy between between salary, because we find that when the women that we work with are looking for a role, longevity is important.
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And I I would say that that as well as project complexity and you know, and developing more strategic exposure, which is probably similar to men, but I think you're right that men are more mobile in terms of their roles and and moving on, um, whereas maybe women do value that maybe staying staying put for for longer.
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I think worth knowing your worth and salary aren't always aligned, and that isn't always somebody's marker for whether they're being valued.
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That might be around progression, it might be around the environment, it might be around strategic um client relationships that you're exposed to.
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Uh, but there's definitely a need for employers to understand what feeling valued is when you're looking at underrepresented groups, asking those questions, and also I think that generationally it is changing very quickly.
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You know, my generation uh we're kind of taught to, as women, as girls, to think small, to stay small, and that isn't the case now.
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And I know that you've got daughters, and you know you're big on empowering them, and I've got sons, and I'm you know doing the reverse for the for the same for the same reason.
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But certainly I think, and that's why it's great seeing younger t women coming into the industry, they are not afraid to advocate for themselves in the way that I was.
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And I think if you think about what holds people back, yes, confidence, but fear of repercussions, fear of rejection.
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And I don't think men have that uncertainty to the same degree.
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No, and I suppose obviously there is a there is a lot fewer women in this in this space.
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Um, and that that's the you know one of the driving factors behind critical careers, it's building that visibility of women in in whatever that particular role is.
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Um, just seeing yourself, that's that's often um quite a compelling reason to feel like you belong, that sense of belonging and building a career somewhere.
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I know in the salary survey um there was a metric, it was 5% um difference between female and male um salaries at sort of a mid-level, but then that that gap really does widen when you look at the senior positions.
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So it's up to 22% when you get to those senior positions.
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And to your point, Sarah, we're talking about, you know, maybe the women at a certain age, they they they do their careers stall a little bit because of those um uh breaks for parental leave or whatever that might be.
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I mean, that's surely something, hopefully, that is changing with with the sort of a newer, a younger generation who aren't accepting this disparity anymore.
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But that just needs to be something that we address now, surely.
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Yeah, and that was part of my thought process around why.
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Like I I with data, I'm obsessed with like why.
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You get one point and it doesn't answer the question, does it?
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It gives you a you that you look at it and you think that I need to know more now.
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And that was where I was going with maybe it's because a lot of the senior hires have been promoted into their roles, whereas a lot of the new hires would naturally be male because there are, like you said, there are more males in this industry.
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There's some exceptional females in leadership roles in this in this industry that have transformed organisations, and I'm I'm sure they're getting rewarded for that.
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It's maybe those that are in that that have worked their way into it and haven't quite had that conversation around hang on a minute, I've been promoted three or four times here and my salary's not really changed.
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Uh I think it's really difficult without specifically asking the individuals in those roles.
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I don't think you can really answer the question, which I appreciate doesn't help.
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I've hired uh senior females into roles, and you know, there's been no conversations around the pay being any different, but that's hiring into it.
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But we're not largely in those conversations when it's a promotion.
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We get, I'm sure Sarah gets you get adv asked for advice, but we we we are looking to benchmark for this role, and when we benchmark for a role, you benchmark for the role, you don't benchmark you might geography impacts it to a degree, but other than that, you're largely saying this is what we think you need to pay to attract someone exceptional, or this is what your existing incumbents should be getting paid.
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We've just done a huge project for an investment platform around um salaries at each level and each role, and and that is purely based on in these geographies, these skill sets.
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There's nothing else behind it, just what should we pay?
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But you don't know what happens with that data.
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Do they go to their current staff and say, look, we've done a review and you're 25% underpaid, therefore we're going to increase your salary?
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Or do they just say, that individual over there is a bit underpaid, we need to keep an eye on her?
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Or there could be, you know, that ignorance is bliss.
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I mean, if women are staying in their jobs for longer, I suppose how do you know externally, with unlike, you know, it's brilliant that is it's fantastic that you publish um the survey every year because it does provide clarity um over what are the where you should be sat in terms of your salary expectations.
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But often it's it's it's that lack of knowledge really of how much you are worth.
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And I think in this industry as well, because it's moved so quickly, I'm sure you've seen it, salaries are flight.
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Like salaries fluctuate within a year.
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I always say this: you do a salary survey in we we get the data in the summer, release it in September.
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It's probably by January, February, it needs a review because that's how fast the market's moving, and it's very demand-based.
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So geographics, geography can massively impact it.
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If you're hiring a leadership team in London, where a lot of leadership teams are, it's going to cost you more than if you're hiring a team somewhere where there's not as many leaders.
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That's natural, but it does.
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I think that's one of the biggest uh reasons for the lack of knowledge around pay is because it changes so quickly.
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I always use project directors as a good example.
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Project directors' salaries have probably ri risen 75% in two, three years.
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And there's multiple examples of that.
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And it depends where they are in the supply chain as well.
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You know, it's uh they're all they're all fighting for the for the same talent.
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If the data is becoming not redundant, but almost out of date within six months, that's why the talent teams have to be on top of their team.
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Otherwise, you're just hiring a talent, it's a revolving door, you've just got this carousel and it's spitting it out the other side if you're not retaining it.
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That's what I would urge the leaders within businesses to just be really on top of what people are looking for.
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Rarely do people phone you up, and I'm sure you're the same and say, Andy, I'm looking for a new job because I'm underpaid.
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They're looking for a challenge, um, glass ceiling, um, the project's coming to an end, geographic problems, family situations change, they need to work from home or don't want to travel as much.
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Very rarely is the first reason, when you say, Well, why are you looking?
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Very rarely do they say money.
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And if they do only say money, we don't work with them because everyone's going to get counter-offered.
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You know, there's there's got to be something more.
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And actually, I was analysing about 1,200 of our calls with our within our network recently, because I've got literally nothing better to do with my time.
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Um, but weirdly, I love data and I love listening actually to the trends because you think you know what people are saying, but actually it's only until you analyse 1,200 conversations that you've had in three months.
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And the most important marker or reason why people are are what or rather what people are looking for in their next role is solid project pipeline.
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So actually, if you're able to make your pipeline visible to your team, that's gonna have impact in terms of retention and and motivating them and looking at development opportunities.
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And I think visibility of roles, progression, salaries within an organization are vital because then you're gonna stop the massive differences around salaries.
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And obviously, being good, being good enough, people, you know, people obviously like to work hard at their jobs, um, feeling like they're being valued, as we've spoken about before.
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Um, but then it comes down to that confidence issue.
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And sometimes it's knowing that you are that you're good enough, but then you there can be that little inner voice, that inner critic, that imposter syndrome.
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How should women really approach that in terms of talking themselves out of, say, a more senior position?
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You know, there's sometimes sometimes I find that salary can be intimidating, to be quite honest with you.
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Um, you can look at roles that are 50, 60% more than your salary, you can align with the job description, but simply just the fact that the salary is so good, it can feel a little bit intimidating.
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This is a fast-paced industry, there is a bit of a gold rush, there's a lot of demand, there's a lot of competition.
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Um, how can women really feel that they are good enough for those roles, which they definitely are good enough for?
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I think mentors are really important looking outward.
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That's why we've got our mentoring program, because actually, if you look outside of your organization, you're going to get perspective, and that helps you know your value and the impact that you are having and are able to have, as well as positioning yourself for the next stage.
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I think there are ways that you can gain leaner leadership experience way before you have the title.
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Ultimately, and we've just had a a panel discussion last week on it as part of our mentoring program where we we got the community together, and we were discussing exactly this beyond technical excellence, what's going to accelerate your career.
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You are, you have to be the CEO of your own career.
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Yes.
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You have to make your ambition known.
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It is not your manager's responsibility to put you forward for promotion.
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You have to see it that it's your responsibility to do that.
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And you don't need to do that forcefully or loudly.
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You know, that is just quietly building, look at the next level up.
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What does that involve?
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Where are the gaps?
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Work methodically through it.
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Um, I think men tend to be uh the data, I don't know the exact numbers, but men tend to be much bolder about going forward for roles that they don't tick all the boxes, whereas women tend to want to fill all the boxes on a job description before they go forward.
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So there's a mental shift there, but then there's also internal sponsorship.
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You know, who within a business should you be sponsoring to bring up?
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Who do you want to be your sponsor, your sponsor to take you up there?
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I'm guilty of this myself, I should say.
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Uh, where you're doing loads of work, you're working all the hours, you're working outside of your um contracted role, and you expect everybody to just notice.
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Andy, how important is it that all of that extra curriculus work going above and beyond, which I think women do tend to do a lot, um, and they're sort of silent about it, expecting everybody else to notice.
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How important is it really to advocate for yourselves in those positions, really, and to say, listen, I'm doing my day job here, but I'm also doing X, Y, and Z, you know, I'm going above and beyond.
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I'll always go back to, I think your organization should actually advocate for it as well.
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Like they should be able, they should be seeing that, you know, like the work you're doing with this, you know.
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Like, I know I know how much extracurricular work can go into uh even just a simple podcast, but it does have a huge impact on your yourself, your own development, your organization, etc.
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So the organization has to, or an organization has to appreciate it and understand it, and they should highlight it in reviews.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:04.079
They should be saying, look, we know you've you've done a great job, but we're also fully aware you've, I don't know, been to these networking events, you've done this, you've mentored somebody within the organization.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:05.279
I think that's really important.
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.400
A lot of it just boils down to individual, doesn't it?
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.119
Like your personality and your traits and your attributes.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:14.880
You know, are you an introvert that doesn't really like talking about yourself?
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:16.079
It can be difficult.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.039
Write it down.
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:29.119
Write it down, put it in an email and just say, look, you know, I'm not confident to say this, but here's how here's what I've here's areas that I feel I've developed and that I've initiated in other in other areas.
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.880
I think maybe write it down.
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.279
I think Sarah said like talk to a mentor.
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:41.200
You know, is there somebody within your organization that's not your line manager that you can speak to and say, I'd really like to present this, but I don't really know how to do it?
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:42.640
I think it's difficult for anybody.
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.200
But I wonder if that's also learnt behaviour.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:56.880
Um, you know, maybe it is more just that male stereotype that they are naturally more assertive and you know, they'll document and promote, self-promote maybe a little bit more.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:06.640
Maybe it's learnt behaviour from, like you said, where we are taught women are um, you know, just don't don't don't be a big head, don't uh, you know, be arrogant.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:07.759
Yeah, stop showing off.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:09.599
And I think it goes it goes to childhood, doesn't it?
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.720
Like, I obviously have three daughters, or I coach girls' football teams.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:19.440
And and if you ask not my own children, because I always think they're the they're the not the great example, because they're my own kids, they can say whatever they want to me, unfortunately.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.119
But if you ask other other children, other girls in the team, like, you know, how are you feeling?
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:23.680
Are you okay?
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:24.319
Are you tired?
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.400
You rarely get like much back.
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:33.440
You kind of you get one extreme or the other, they they totally close up or they they kind and they break down or they say, Look, yeah, what are you talking about?
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:42.079
You know, don't whereas if you ask that to boys, I coach some boys as well, you get really like angry, you know, don't ask me how I'm feeling.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.759
So I think a lot of it does go back to that learnt behaviour.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:47.519
I think the podcast is a great example for me.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:54.640
I'm not massively confident in front of people, but when you do 200 and something odd episodes of podcasts, I'm sure you're finding the same.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:56.400
It suddenly becomes really comfortable.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:07.279
It's just a behavior that you learn, and you can put yourself in a situation, and sometimes it's a facade, sometimes it's not actually how you are, but you put yourself in that situation, you deal with a situation, you kind of walk away from it.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:19.519
Trying to educate anyone, whether it's a male or a female, to kind of have that confidence to in a certain situation, you can sort of, you know, put a brave face on it, deal with it, move out, and still go back to your normal self.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:20.559
You don't have to totally change.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.039
You've got to be comfortable with the discomfort.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:26.319
This is not my comfort zone whatsoever.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.359
But if you're uncomfortable, then you're growing.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:32.319
Um and what's the worst that can happen?
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:40.640
And I think that being able to fail safe in an organization is really important, and that's a real cultural uh need within businesses.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:47.440
You have to have an environment where people feel safe to fail because that's how they're going to learn and develop.
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.200
And also it's developing that attitude.
00:21:51.359 --> 00:23:20.799
You you know, you you become more creative when you know you have that support system around you, you become a little, you take on a bit more responsible, you're willing to you know experiment um and sometimes those things really work out and you can be on to the next best thing um sitting right here as a product of what we was supposed to be just one coffee table book so um i know i certainly know what it's like to benefit from an organisation that backs um backs their employees yeah definitely and i suppose that's it it's the responsibility it's where does that sit you know you can you you know it it whilst um the organisations have that responsibility to really look after the staff and provide that environment where it's okay to fail um the responsibility to document what you're doing um so you feed so you know what your value of where does that sit whose responsibility is that is it is it the candidates themselves or is it an organization what do you think Oh it's uh it's the employer and the employee you know and the work that Andy's done with the with the salary survey and all of the you know shining a light on all the different careers and the opportunities and the different leaders and women in there is a there is a collective responsibility but ultimately you can't thrive in male or female in an environment that isn't willing to invest and nurture but they're not mind readers you know and if a manager is managing 20 30 50 people you have to make yourself known and that doesn't mean shouting that is just being really really clear so you've got to take control of that yourself.
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.880
So yeah I don't think it sits with one person.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:38.319
And I think it's really important that you give people the platform isn't it that's what again something I've learned is and you've done the same with critical careers you know you give people the platform to share to talk and to give them the opportunity and then they suddenly realise that it is a comfortable space.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:49.200
They can say what they feel and it it does come across okay they don't sound silly and like a lot of people when they're doing podcasts say I don't really want to do this because I think I sound a bit silly like you won't yeah and if you do it doesn't matter.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:56.079
But that applies internally as well in your organisation doesn't it you've got to give people the platform to feel comfortable to share.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:25.039
If you're sat with somebody in a review and you're telling them that you know this is where they're valued they're much more likely to say actually yeah I think I'm valued in that area as well and you whereas if some people are just a bit fearful like you said earlier of s of coming out with something again same reason for you they just feel like it might sound a bit silly or it's not their place to say I think the platform's key for anything like you highlight the good give them the opportunity to share their stories and then people relax and like you say they get a bit more comfortable.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.720
Maybe they'll get too comfortable and share things you don't want to know but that's better than nothing, isn't it?
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:58.640
How do you feel about those people who you know very very comfortable in an organisation they really love their job but they're ambitious and they might have reached that ceiling what where what should what advice do you give to those those women men potentially in those situations who are you know they really love what they do but they might just be ready for that next challenge and it might not be at said company for 18 months, two years what what would you advise those people in those positions to do?
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:16.319
You know if you think about when you're what what your personal indicators are for when you're ready to to move on are you getting itchy feet are you getting a bit bored is it a bit easy sometimes that's really important that you sit with that because depending on the stage of your life and what you've got going on that's useful sometimes.
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:26.559
But I think if it's to the point where you're starting to want more of a challenge you've got to look outward and the other thing is progression isn't always promotion.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:46.880
You know there are other ways to progress within an organization and I don't think people talk about that enough and that that came up on the panel discussion last week you know you might be bored here but you might love the organisation and actually if you sidestepped into another senior leadership position but just you know developed other skills or you know that might be stimulating enough.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:52.880
And some people get pushed into promotion as well and that pushes them out because they never wanted it in the first place.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:58.880
But again they haven't got the confidence to say they feel that if they say I don't want this promotion that will look negatively on them.
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:09.119
Whereas like you say they're they're just happy in their role or they just want a bit of variety don't want added um leadership responsibilities or they don't want a larger team or they just they don't want that role.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.119
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.559
One thing this industry offers is opportunity.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:23.759
So on your point around you know like people reaching a glass ceiling there's a lot of people that have not reached a glass ceiling but they suddenly realise there's a huge opportunity out there.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:34.799
We've worked with loads of startup data center platforms and investment funds in the last 18 months and a lot of the people you hire into these C level roles within those organisations are they've been in the industry sort of 15 20 years.
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:38.640
And there's not actually that many that have been in the industry that long.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.079
But what they haven't had until the last two years is is opportunity.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:58.319
So now they're looking at it and thinking well actually I am a bit comfortable I've been in this organisation for quite a long time I know everybody you know like it I'm just coming in logging on logging off it's that type of mentality whereas now there's these brand new organisations out there or high growth.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.440
They don't even have to be new they just suddenly raised significant capital.
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:13.119
They got high growth so you've seen more leaders take on new challenges when I think about the people that are hiring it is it's not they don't like their job it's not they're looking for more money.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:16.079
It's like that's a once in a lifetime opportunity.
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:21.440
You ride in the wave of the AI revolution or whatever Jensen's calling it today.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:29.039
No difference I'm sure when industrial revolution started and you know you're responsible for one factory you're suddenly responsible for 20 factories.
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:34.480
I mean it's it's that opportunity that is probably sometimes missed by employers.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:47.119
I think why are people leaving it's like it's once in a lifetime it's generational whether that is a financial generational reward if that succeeds or it's just I'm never going to get this opportunity again to join an organisation on day one.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.240
Rarely does that happen.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:56.960
It happens all the time in recruitment I think it's one of those industries where new new businesses start all the time but in a in a large in a data centre industry there's not many day ones.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:57.200
No.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:16.480
And being part of something from day one I think is is a really exciting opportunity for some people for others it's an absolute nightmare yeah because they they they want I've got no one to work with me you know there's no one around to support but for the right people it is and I think that's created a lot of change at leadership level across the industry.
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:17.920
What does progression look like?
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:26.079
What does progress what would you hope to see this sat here this time in six months time this time in a year's time what is good progress for the females of this industry?
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:38.400
How should we be um looking what metric should we be looking at obviously satisfaction is very important salary is also important career progression is important but what what is progress to you Sarah?
00:28:38.640 --> 00:29:37.119
Retention and representation I think increased increased representation and more balanced across you know it's going to be easier in some disciplines that than others um because of you know the socialization the education and bringing women up into into STEM roles but I think better representation and and broad more diverse voices within that and I know that this is something that I've spoken about before in terms of you know female speakers and that you're going to these events and it is there is much more representation but often and this is no slight on them it's the same speakers and that isn't that's not diverse voices that's the same six women and like like you were saying Andy this is a real career accelerating period of time um and that's daunting and there'll be times that people fall flat on their face but that's all right you just got to get up and and keep going but I think it's um yeah it's it's a bit more balanced.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:30:20.640
Yeah I think representation is a big one for me because it's it's obviously I see it from pretty obvious I see it from a different lens to yourselves but when I I always go back to events and when I started going to events and like I say the the age has definitely changed the the demographics change there is more representation now which is great but I completely agree with your point around we've got to push these people forward if they're comfortable like how can we give people the platform so they can be the role models for the next generation how can we ensure they're they're comfortable in the industry you know you do still hear some not great stories um from within the industry so how do we as males make it a welcoming place for females like what can I do to help more females come into the industry and that applies to any demographic.
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:28.079
You know what can me as a white white middle aged male right in the smack bang middle of the demographic of this industry what can I do?
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:29.519
And everyone should look at it like that.
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:34.400
Everyone shouldn't look at it as oh it's all right Lizzie's doing critical careers and Sarah's doing a mentor program.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.319
Do something like what can you do?
00:30:36.480 --> 00:31:02.319
And if you're not comfortable to do something give ideas to people and and help them there's a lot of great change I think happening there's definitely more representation there's definitely more initiatives like we've talked about like your own but we can still do a lot more to put individuals at the forefront of this industry and not have the same speakers at at every event and learn I work with some of the events and I know they some of them do some great work trying to change that.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:11.839
Obviously it's there's a level of dictation from the customer as well yeah we know how it all works but I think if you're comfortable to talk at events maybe put it forward as well like get out there.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.559
I'm happy to push people into the front.
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:27.119
It is a bit daunting to speak at events but I suppose the more and more you do it the more you're outside of your comfort zone the the more comfortable you become I do wonder on that though I I think largely it's about are you asked?
00:31:27.279 --> 00:32:01.599
And actually running the speaker series with with with Joyce and Katrona now there are some unbelievable speakers who are women and they're not asked which is obviously why Katrona started it in the first place which is okay well what if you could fail really safely in a room of other of other women but until conference you know event organisers stop charging you to speak on a stage you're only gonna get a really limited number of voices that's a massive bugbear of mine like to speak for hours about I think I think most people would agree with that point.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.880
You understand the commercial aspect of it and how it works.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:27.279
But yeah it's it's a it's a valid point and I think it's about ensuring that people are asked for the right reasons as well I get asked to talk at events and it's Andy can you talk at this event because we'd like you to promote the event no I'll talk at the event if you think I can add value to it but if you want me to talk about liquid calling I know nothing about it just so I'm going to post about your event you honestly you'd be better off getting someone that's an expert in that area.
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:44.079
So I think it's it's being asked for the right reasons as well like you say there are we need to ensure representation's there but equally we need to ensure that the great people in the whether it's females or any any government the great people that have great stories to tell are given the opportunity to to share it.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:55.680
And I know that through the podcast and I'm sure you've seen it through critical careers if you give people that little platform they suddenly do get asked but no one really pushes them forward or or where do you go if it's yourself and you want to do it.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:56.640
Like who do you talk to?
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:57.359
No one really knows.
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:06.880
So one of my hopes is that um women won't just be pro the feet all female panel won't just be profiled to just talking about being a female in this industry.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:13.839
But I always find it a really difficult topic to talk about because obviously I'm a I'm a massive advocate like I push my daughters into doing anything.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.519
Like you should be able to do anything I did.
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:16.640
That's the way I look at it.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:27.839
But it is a difficult subject to talk about as a as a male because you're trying to talk about it in the right way and but I completely agree like I see some panels and I just think this panel's clearly a staged panel.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:56.240
Like and that applies not just to female to others but it's more evident isn't it when it's four three four five females you think you've done that sort of intentionally yeah and then the topic and the subject as well whereas I might know some of the people on that panel and I know that they've got exceptional capability in an area and they don't even get the chance to talk about that that area what they're good at and and yet I guess if you're a female in the a young female in the audience you're not looking at it thinking I'd really like to be like that person.
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:58.720
Look at what they've achieved because you don't get the opportunity to hear.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:08.079
So obviously there is a skill shortage in this in this industry we need to speak outside of our industry as we've mentioned before because we are becoming an echo chamber.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:18.559
How what advice and encouragement would you give where are you looking outside how are you recruiting from outside to fill the the skill shortage that we have in your respective fields?
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:26.480
We absolutely look outside and we're on the you know within the data centre sector we're generally on the on the construction design development side of things.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:45.039
So for us we'll look at other asset classes and bringing people in whether that's on the telecom side or the industrial logistics and actually I think people are aware of that that now that they that they have to look outside and that you know to your point earlier you you're not going to come with the five years data centre experience.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:35:09.039
But also you know there is a there's a geographical there's more openness around um geographical mobility you know a huge part of what we do is relocating talent not always favourably to to the UK because often it's from the UK but you know when you've got these massive schemes elsewhere that's really attractive to young people and we'd rather give them those opportunities to stay in the sector and that they can you know bring that back in time.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:14.159
So yeah I'd say geographical mobility um and other asset classes from from our perspective.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:19.519
Yeah and I think it's much easier than it used to be because people largely know that data centres exist now.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:34.239
They have an opinion now I've I I won't go into the negative I think I think the negative aspect and the PR will have a huge impact on talent I will say that because younger generations actually care and if they think that this is a negative industry then they won't want to join it.
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:38.559
So it's important that we change we won't get into the PR debate but it's important that we change that.
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:50.480
But I think yeah it is much easier now that people understand it's an industry and the opportunity's there and there's growth that's made it a an easier conversation I still think the biggest challenge is people genuinely think it's really technical and difficult.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:56.000
And that's why one of the reasons why I started the podcast because everyone thought everyone was an engineer and everyone was a like a tech genius.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:02.239
And don't get me wrong some people are but a lot of us are you can have a really successful career without being an engineer.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:22.960
So I think demystifying the industry has helped with that like people actually think oh I can you know I can work in any role finance, project management, accounts, marketing doesn't matter what it is you don't have to be an engineer so that's definitely helped and and from from a recruitment perspective it's our job is to advise the clients that some of the best talent in this industry didn't come from the data center industry.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:25.920
And as everyone always says we all start with no experience.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:38.960
And as more of them come in that you know you've got more open-minded diverse thoughts you're going to bring more diversity of thought is a massive change like it used to be so I I don't ever listen to my podcast but I reckon if I go back five years and listen to them.
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.000
You should listen to them I can't listen to mine either oh god it's guys you don't know what you're missing.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:59.440
I'll be moaning about the lack of diversity of thought in it yeah like so much has come from other industries and it goes the other way as well we're do we're this industry is like massively impacting the the world really and other industries a lot of the technology we're creating will have a huge impact on other industries.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:07.920
So diversity of thought's really important and I think companies do understand that now on your point like out of necessity I think but they've now seen evidence.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:08.880
Seen the benefits.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:15.920
Yeah they've gone oh shit you know they're actually really good maybe we should get more people from oil and gas or from power or process or whatever it might be.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:30.159
Well thank you so much for your contribution to today's discussion it was really worthwhile and just to both of you individually for all the hard work that you do um in addition to your roles of promoting these opportunities for women um yeah personally really grateful to you both thank you.
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.559
No thank you thanks for tuning in to this episode of Critical Careers.
00:37:34.719 --> 00:38:03.440
A special thank you to our founder KO Data and to our strategic partners CBRE, AVK, Evershin Sutherland, JL, and Mace Construct for their support in making the Critical Careers Initiative possible CBRE supports mission critical infrastructure through a fully integrated life cycle service model for the world's leading hyperscalers, co-location providers and enterprises.
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:16.079
From site selection through build and operations, CBRE's integrated offering aligns real estate, facilities and technology to reduce risk, optimize performance and maximize uptime.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:29.679
Backed by global scale and local market expertise in nearly 50 countries, CBRE's network of over 6,000 skilled data center experts helps clients stay ahead of demand and unlock maximum value.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:33.679
Learn more at CBRE.comslash data centers.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.799
Here's what's coming up in this episode of Critical Careers.
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:12.560
I think worth, knowing your worth and salary aren't always aligned, and that isn't always somebody's marker for whether they're being valued.
00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:24.960
There's definitely a need for employers to understand what feeling valued is when you're looking at underrepresented groups.
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:30.239
How can we give people the platform so they can be the role models for the next generation?
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:33.920
How can we ensure they're they're comfortable in the industry?
00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.079
You know, you do still hear some not great stories from within the industry.
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.679
So how do we as males make it a welcoming place for females?
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:42.960
Like, what can I do?
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:52.960
This episode of the Critical Careers Podcast is sponsored by CBRE, AVK, Evershed Sutherland, JLL, and Mace Construct.
00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:55.359
Welcome to the Critical Careers Podcast.
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:56.640
I'm Lizzie McDowell.
00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:04.879
On today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Andrew Davis from Data X Connect and Sarah Davenport from Capstone Recruitment.
00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:08.079
On today's episode, we discuss the value gap.
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:10.719
Behind every salary is a story.
00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:18.640
We explore how confidence, recognition, and opportunity shape careers and why fairness matters just as much as pay.
00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:19.840
I hope you enjoy.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:21.920
Thank you so much for joining me.
00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:24.480
Really appreciate it on this important episode.
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:26.400
Yeah, so we'll just kick off really.
00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:39.519
So wanting to just discuss a little bit about female expectations, about salary, how we're profiled in the industry, and obviously could not be joined by two more um knowledgeable people really who are at the forefront of this issue.
00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:40.640
So really appreciate it.
00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:42.959
So Andy, if we could just kick off with you.
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:47.040
Obviously, Datorex have released their salary survey.
00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.640
Um is it the it's the third edition?
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:52.239
That is a very good question.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:54.159
I believe it's second or third edition.
00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:54.640
Yeah.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:59.359
What are your initial thoughts on the on the survey overall and how has it been received?
00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.640
And it has it changed your expectations or where are you up to?
00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:04.079
I think it's been received really well.
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.040
I think it is every year, and you try and do a little bit more every year.
00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:12.159
So I think some of the tweaks we've made this year, which were based on feedback last year, have have gone down well.
00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:17.919
I was thinking about it, it hasn't really surprised me, which I guess is kind of says that not a lot's really changing.
00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.199
You know, you do see things changing.
00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:23.280
I think there's definitely more young people in the industry always say events are a great way.
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:28.960
We've just had DCD London, and if I used to be the youngest in the room, now I'm not, which is a really good thing.
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.840
I think gender is changing, but we'll talk about that in more detail.
00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:33.439
There's so much more we need to do.
00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.879
Um, but overall, the sentiment's largely the same.
00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:45.599
I think people are looking for career development, there are uh discrepancies in pay, there's low geo geographical challenges.
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.759
The US and Europe bring quite different dynamics, which is interesting.
00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:52.240
But overall, I think I wasn't really that surprised.
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:55.840
The area that I really wanted to look into this year, which we did, was where people are coming from.
00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.719
So, what industries are people coming into the sector from?
00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:03.599
Because I've been spouting about it for years, that we need to look outside the industry.
00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:08.479
And I'm sure you see the same like you can't find people with five years' experience every time you have a vacancy.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:16.159
So looking at that and what sectors they come through, I think was really interesting, and that hopefully gives some good data to internal teams to look for when they're hiring.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:24.879
So, Sarah, um, women are appear do appear to be negatively impacted um when it becomes to salary and progression.
00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:30.080
Um, what are your thoughts from speaking to the women that you've met and then who you recruit into the sector?
00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.159
What are your feelings with regards to that?
00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.960
It's interesting that that came out in your survey as well.
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:38.400
That's certainly something that we hear consistently.
00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:47.280
Um whether it's because of the most obvious might be around maternity leave, maternity return.
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:52.560
Um, you know, if you've had one to three children, you know, that could be up to three years.
00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:56.879
So when you're coming back, you could be up to three years behind a male peer.
00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:03.599
And sometimes when you come back, you might be limited in terms of some people choose or need to work part-time.
00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.560
So there's an element of reducing your earning ability there.
00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:12.960
But then I think that there are deeper factors in terms of representation within all organizations.
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:18.800
Women aren't historically the obvious choice for promotion in the natural way that that men can be.
00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:25.040
I'm really conscious, by the way, this is a massive generalization, which really panics me when I'm talking about it.
00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:29.680
Um, but this is anecdotally from talking to people that that we've been working with.
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:37.920
It's interesting, really, because I suppose, yes, you're right, there are certain biological uh um differences.
00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.839
So women, you know, they they have they take maternity leave naturally.
00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:46.319
Um and then I suppose that influ inf impacts your confidence uh as a woman.
00:04:46.480 --> 00:05:01.600
Um so understanding that what is your worth, what are you when you're returning to work, knowing your worth, what advice do you give to women, Andy, with regards to their rejoining after maybe a a period of um parental responsibility?
00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:06.160
How how do women know their worth and and and and the link of that with salary?
00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:07.839
What what what do you see?
00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:18.160
Firstly, on the point you made around the gender discrepancy, I think it was 50% um felt that gender had impacted them and 97% of there was negative.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.720
I think do you I don't know, I was thinking about it.
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:24.240
Like, is it because females tend to stay in their roles longer?
00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:25.920
And you know how it is when you're hiring.
00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.199
A lot of new hires get paid more than existing because they don't review.
00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.199
So I didn't know if that was one of the reasons.
00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:32.319
And we need to look into that.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:36.959
That's one of those data points where you kind of you see you get the answer, we don't get the detail if you look at the detail behind it.
00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:41.199
I think with regards to knowing your worth, I think that works both ways, doesn't it?
00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:45.199
Like your employer demonstrating your worth to you.
00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:53.360
Because I don't think a lot of employers are great at saying you're really valued, this is the impact you're having, especially in this industry where it's so fast.
00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:55.439
Like I always talk about speedless industry.
00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.800
Everyone's focused on execution and kind of the end goal.
00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:08.319
Everyone's there trying to deliver something in a crop in a quite crazy time scale, and it doesn't always give you the opportunity to sit down with your your staff and say, look, you are valued.
00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:15.040
This is what you've given to us as an organization, this is the impact you've had on whatever the project is or whatever your role is.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.680
So I think there's loads of different variables you need to look at.
00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:23.199
Advice-wise, I think it's difficult because a lot of it comes down probably to confidence, doesn't it?
00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:27.279
And like, are you confident enough to sit in front of somebody and say you're valued?
00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:36.079
I know personally that that's a journey you go on in your career, where at some point we were just talking about how long we've been in recruitment and it's it's quite a long time.
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:45.680
And when you start your career, you don't really have the confidence because you don't feel like you're in a position to be able to say to somebody, look, I know I'm doing a really good job here, and this is an example of it.
00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:57.199
So maybe kind of advising individuals that you know you are doing a good job and give them the confidence to sit in front of their line manager or whoever it might be, but it is difficult, and there's probably a training point in there.
00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:06.959
There probably is a training point from an employment perspective around giving people the freedom and the confidence to talk to their line manager or whoever they need to talk to in that organisation.
00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:11.120
I think as well, that's why we come back to salary because it is an indicator, isn't it?
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.439
That's your that's your value because you can put that metric on it.
00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:24.720
But uh for women that are feeling less undervalued, um, there's a question there of how do we recognise that value through more sort of data points.
00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:26.480
What are your thoughts on that, Sarah?
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:42.560
It's interesting, and actually to your point around women tend to be in roles longer, and therefore maybe that's why there's a natural um discrepancy between between salary, because we find that when the women that we work with are looking for a role, longevity is important.
00:07:42.800 --> 00:08:04.000
And I I would say that that as well as project complexity and you know, and developing more strategic exposure, which is probably similar to men, but I think you're right that men are more mobile in terms of their roles and and moving on, um, whereas maybe women do value that maybe staying staying put for for longer.
00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:14.319
I think worth knowing your worth and salary aren't always aligned, and that isn't always somebody's marker for whether they're being valued.
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:22.480
That might be around progression, it might be around the environment, it might be around strategic um client relationships that you're exposed to.
00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:42.480
Uh, but there's definitely a need for employers to understand what feeling valued is when you're looking at underrepresented groups, asking those questions, and also I think that generationally it is changing very quickly.
00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:55.440
You know, my generation uh we're kind of taught to, as women, as girls, to think small, to stay small, and that isn't the case now.
00:08:55.519 --> 00:09:03.120
And I know that you've got daughters, and you know you're big on empowering them, and I've got sons, and I'm you know doing the reverse for the for the same for the same reason.
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:11.679
But certainly I think, and that's why it's great seeing younger t women coming into the industry, they are not afraid to advocate for themselves in the way that I was.
00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:18.720
And I think if you think about what holds people back, yes, confidence, but fear of repercussions, fear of rejection.
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:23.919
And I don't think men have that uncertainty to the same degree.
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.559
No, and I suppose obviously there is a there is a lot fewer women in this in this space.
00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:37.279
Um, and that that's the you know one of the driving factors behind critical careers, it's building that visibility of women in in whatever that particular role is.
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:45.759
Um, just seeing yourself, that's that's often um quite a compelling reason to feel like you belong, that sense of belonging and building a career somewhere.
00:09:45.919 --> 00:10:00.240
I know in the salary survey um there was a metric, it was 5% um difference between female and male um salaries at sort of a mid-level, but then that that gap really does widen when you look at the senior positions.
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.200
So it's up to 22% when you get to those senior positions.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:15.360
And to your point, Sarah, we're talking about, you know, maybe the women at a certain age, they they they do their careers stall a little bit because of those um uh breaks for parental leave or whatever that might be.
00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:24.080
I mean, that's surely something, hopefully, that is changing with with the sort of a newer, a younger generation who aren't accepting this disparity anymore.
00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:26.799
But that just needs to be something that we address now, surely.
00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:30.480
Yeah, and that was part of my thought process around why.
00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.759
Like I I with data, I'm obsessed with like why.
00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.320
You get one point and it doesn't answer the question, does it?
00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:39.600
It gives you a you that you look at it and you think that I need to know more now.
00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:52.879
And that was where I was going with maybe it's because a lot of the senior hires have been promoted into their roles, whereas a lot of the new hires would naturally be male because there are, like you said, there are more males in this industry.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:11:01.360
There's some exceptional females in leadership roles in this in this industry that have transformed organisations, and I'm I'm sure they're getting rewarded for that.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:12.559
It's maybe those that are in that that have worked their way into it and haven't quite had that conversation around hang on a minute, I've been promoted three or four times here and my salary's not really changed.
00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:18.080
Uh I think it's really difficult without specifically asking the individuals in those roles.
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.480
I don't think you can really answer the question, which I appreciate doesn't help.
00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:32.240
I've hired uh senior females into roles, and you know, there's been no conversations around the pay being any different, but that's hiring into it.
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:36.480
But we're not largely in those conversations when it's a promotion.
00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:57.919
We get, I'm sure Sarah gets you get adv asked for advice, but we we we are looking to benchmark for this role, and when we benchmark for a role, you benchmark for the role, you don't benchmark you might geography impacts it to a degree, but other than that, you're largely saying this is what we think you need to pay to attract someone exceptional, or this is what your existing incumbents should be getting paid.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:06.799
We've just done a huge project for an investment platform around um salaries at each level and each role, and and that is purely based on in these geographies, these skill sets.
00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:09.120
There's nothing else behind it, just what should we pay?
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.240
But you don't know what happens with that data.
00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:20.240
Do they go to their current staff and say, look, we've done a review and you're 25% underpaid, therefore we're going to increase your salary?
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.799
Or do they just say, that individual over there is a bit underpaid, we need to keep an eye on her?
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.279
Or there could be, you know, that ignorance is bliss.
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:44.960
I mean, if women are staying in their jobs for longer, I suppose how do you know externally, with unlike, you know, it's brilliant that is it's fantastic that you publish um the survey every year because it does provide clarity um over what are the where you should be sat in terms of your salary expectations.
00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:50.080
But often it's it's it's that lack of knowledge really of how much you are worth.
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:55.679
And I think in this industry as well, because it's moved so quickly, I'm sure you've seen it, salaries are flight.
00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:58.159
Like salaries fluctuate within a year.
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.919
I always say this: you do a salary survey in we we get the data in the summer, release it in September.
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:10.639
It's probably by January, February, it needs a review because that's how fast the market's moving, and it's very demand-based.
00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:14.000
So geographics, geography can massively impact it.
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:20.879
If you're hiring a leadership team in London, where a lot of leadership teams are, it's going to cost you more than if you're hiring a team somewhere where there's not as many leaders.
00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:22.720
That's natural, but it does.
00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:29.679
I think that's one of the biggest uh reasons for the lack of knowledge around pay is because it changes so quickly.
00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:31.759
I always use project directors as a good example.
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:37.200
Project directors' salaries have probably ri risen 75% in two, three years.
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.159
And there's multiple examples of that.
00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.519
And it depends where they are in the supply chain as well.
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.799
You know, it's uh they're all they're all fighting for the for the same talent.
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:58.000
If the data is becoming not redundant, but almost out of date within six months, that's why the talent teams have to be on top of their team.
00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:04.320
Otherwise, you're just hiring a talent, it's a revolving door, you've just got this carousel and it's spitting it out the other side if you're not retaining it.
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:10.559
That's what I would urge the leaders within businesses to just be really on top of what people are looking for.
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:15.360
Rarely do people phone you up, and I'm sure you're the same and say, Andy, I'm looking for a new job because I'm underpaid.
00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:26.399
They're looking for a challenge, um, glass ceiling, um, the project's coming to an end, geographic problems, family situations change, they need to work from home or don't want to travel as much.
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.639
Very rarely is the first reason, when you say, Well, why are you looking?
00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:32.720
Very rarely do they say money.
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:37.840
And if they do only say money, we don't work with them because everyone's going to get counter-offered.
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:39.600
You know, there's there's got to be something more.
00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:47.759
And actually, I was analysing about 1,200 of our calls with our within our network recently, because I've got literally nothing better to do with my time.
00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:58.000
Um, but weirdly, I love data and I love listening actually to the trends because you think you know what people are saying, but actually it's only until you analyse 1,200 conversations that you've had in three months.
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:09.120
And the most important marker or reason why people are are what or rather what people are looking for in their next role is solid project pipeline.
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:20.080
So actually, if you're able to make your pipeline visible to your team, that's gonna have impact in terms of retention and and motivating them and looking at development opportunities.
00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:33.440
And I think visibility of roles, progression, salaries within an organization are vital because then you're gonna stop the massive differences around salaries.
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:41.919
And obviously, being good, being good enough, people, you know, people obviously like to work hard at their jobs, um, feeling like they're being valued, as we've spoken about before.
00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.360
Um, but then it comes down to that confidence issue.
00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:53.840
And sometimes it's knowing that you are that you're good enough, but then you there can be that little inner voice, that inner critic, that imposter syndrome.
00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:59.360
How should women really approach that in terms of talking themselves out of, say, a more senior position?
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:04.879
You know, there's sometimes sometimes I find that salary can be intimidating, to be quite honest with you.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:19.600
Um, you can look at roles that are 50, 60% more than your salary, you can align with the job description, but simply just the fact that the salary is so good, it can feel a little bit intimidating.
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:25.039
This is a fast-paced industry, there is a bit of a gold rush, there's a lot of demand, there's a lot of competition.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:31.279
Um, how can women really feel that they are good enough for those roles, which they definitely are good enough for?
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.879
I think mentors are really important looking outward.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:49.919
That's why we've got our mentoring program, because actually, if you look outside of your organization, you're going to get perspective, and that helps you know your value and the impact that you are having and are able to have, as well as positioning yourself for the next stage.
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:54.720
I think there are ways that you can gain leaner leadership experience way before you have the title.
00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:08.400
Ultimately, and we've just had a a panel discussion last week on it as part of our mentoring program where we we got the community together, and we were discussing exactly this beyond technical excellence, what's going to accelerate your career.
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.039
You are, you have to be the CEO of your own career.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:13.519
Yes.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:15.920
You have to make your ambition known.
00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:20.720
It is not your manager's responsibility to put you forward for promotion.
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.920
You have to see it that it's your responsibility to do that.
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.559
And you don't need to do that forcefully or loudly.
00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.240
You know, that is just quietly building, look at the next level up.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:31.039
What does that involve?
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:32.079
Where are the gaps?
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:34.160
Work methodically through it.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:49.200
Um, I think men tend to be uh the data, I don't know the exact numbers, but men tend to be much bolder about going forward for roles that they don't tick all the boxes, whereas women tend to want to fill all the boxes on a job description before they go forward.
00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.720
So there's a mental shift there, but then there's also internal sponsorship.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.000
You know, who within a business should you be sponsoring to bring up?
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.960
Who do you want to be your sponsor, your sponsor to take you up there?
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.279
I'm guilty of this myself, I should say.
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:10.799
Uh, where you're doing loads of work, you're working all the hours, you're working outside of your um contracted role, and you expect everybody to just notice.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:23.279
Andy, how important is it that all of that extra curriculus work going above and beyond, which I think women do tend to do a lot, um, and they're sort of silent about it, expecting everybody else to notice.
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:32.240
How important is it really to advocate for yourselves in those positions, really, and to say, listen, I'm doing my day job here, but I'm also doing X, Y, and Z, you know, I'm going above and beyond.
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:36.640
I'll always go back to, I think your organization should actually advocate for it as well.
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.640
Like they should be able, they should be seeing that, you know, like the work you're doing with this, you know.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:50.240
Like, I know I know how much extracurricular work can go into uh even just a simple podcast, but it does have a huge impact on your yourself, your own development, your organization, etc.
00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:56.000
So the organization has to, or an organization has to appreciate it and understand it, and they should highlight it in reviews.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:04.079
They should be saying, look, we know you've you've done a great job, but we're also fully aware you've, I don't know, been to these networking events, you've done this, you've mentored somebody within the organization.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:05.279
I think that's really important.
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.400
A lot of it just boils down to individual, doesn't it?
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.119
Like your personality and your traits and your attributes.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:14.880
You know, are you an introvert that doesn't really like talking about yourself?
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:16.079
It can be difficult.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.039
Write it down.
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:29.119
Write it down, put it in an email and just say, look, you know, I'm not confident to say this, but here's how here's what I've here's areas that I feel I've developed and that I've initiated in other in other areas.
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.880
I think maybe write it down.
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.279
I think Sarah said like talk to a mentor.
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:41.200
You know, is there somebody within your organization that's not your line manager that you can speak to and say, I'd really like to present this, but I don't really know how to do it?
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:42.640
I think it's difficult for anybody.
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.200
But I wonder if that's also learnt behaviour.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:56.880
Um, you know, maybe it is more just that male stereotype that they are naturally more assertive and you know, they'll document and promote, self-promote maybe a little bit more.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:06.640
Maybe it's learnt behaviour from, like you said, where we are taught women are um, you know, just don't don't don't be a big head, don't uh, you know, be arrogant.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:07.759
Yeah, stop showing off.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:09.599
And I think it goes it goes to childhood, doesn't it?
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.720
Like, I obviously have three daughters, or I coach girls' football teams.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:19.440
And and if you ask not my own children, because I always think they're the they're the not the great example, because they're my own kids, they can say whatever they want to me, unfortunately.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.119
But if you ask other other children, other girls in the team, like, you know, how are you feeling?
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:23.680
Are you okay?
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:24.319
Are you tired?
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.400
You rarely get like much back.
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:33.440
You kind of you get one extreme or the other, they they totally close up or they they kind and they break down or they say, Look, yeah, what are you talking about?
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:42.079
You know, don't whereas if you ask that to boys, I coach some boys as well, you get really like angry, you know, don't ask me how I'm feeling.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.759
So I think a lot of it does go back to that learnt behaviour.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:47.519
I think the podcast is a great example for me.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:54.640
I'm not massively confident in front of people, but when you do 200 and something odd episodes of podcasts, I'm sure you're finding the same.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:56.400
It suddenly becomes really comfortable.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:07.279
It's just a behavior that you learn, and you can put yourself in a situation, and sometimes it's a facade, sometimes it's not actually how you are, but you put yourself in that situation, you deal with a situation, you kind of walk away from it.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:19.519
Trying to educate anyone, whether it's a male or a female, to kind of have that confidence to in a certain situation, you can sort of, you know, put a brave face on it, deal with it, move out, and still go back to your normal self.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:20.559
You don't have to totally change.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.039
You've got to be comfortable with the discomfort.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:26.319
This is not my comfort zone whatsoever.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.359
But if you're uncomfortable, then you're growing.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:32.319
Um and what's the worst that can happen?
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:40.640
And I think that being able to fail safe in an organization is really important, and that's a real cultural uh need within businesses.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:47.440
You have to have an environment where people feel safe to fail because that's how they're going to learn and develop.
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.200
And also it's developing that attitude.
00:21:51.359 --> 00:23:20.799
You you know, you you become more creative when you know you have that support system around you, you become a little, you take on a bit more responsible, you're willing to you know experiment um and sometimes those things really work out and you can be on to the next best thing um sitting right here as a product of what we was supposed to be just one coffee table book so um i know i certainly know what it's like to benefit from an organisation that backs um backs their employees yeah definitely and i suppose that's it it's the responsibility it's where does that sit you know you can you you know it it whilst um the organisations have that responsibility to really look after the staff and provide that environment where it's okay to fail um the responsibility to document what you're doing um so you feed so you know what your value of where does that sit whose responsibility is that is it is it the candidates themselves or is it an organization what do you think Oh it's uh it's the employer and the employee you know and the work that Andy's done with the with the salary survey and all of the you know shining a light on all the different careers and the opportunities and the different leaders and women in there is a there is a collective responsibility but ultimately you can't thrive in male or female in an environment that isn't willing to invest and nurture but they're not mind readers you know and if a manager is managing 20 30 50 people you have to make yourself known and that doesn't mean shouting that is just being really really clear so you've got to take control of that yourself.
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.880
So yeah I don't think it sits with one person.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:38.319
And I think it's really important that you give people the platform isn't it that's what again something I've learned is and you've done the same with critical careers you know you give people the platform to share to talk and to give them the opportunity and then they suddenly realise that it is a comfortable space.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:49.200
They can say what they feel and it it does come across okay they don't sound silly and like a lot of people when they're doing podcasts say I don't really want to do this because I think I sound a bit silly like you won't yeah and if you do it doesn't matter.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:56.079
But that applies internally as well in your organisation doesn't it you've got to give people the platform to feel comfortable to share.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:25.039
If you're sat with somebody in a review and you're telling them that you know this is where they're valued they're much more likely to say actually yeah I think I'm valued in that area as well and you whereas if some people are just a bit fearful like you said earlier of s of coming out with something again same reason for you they just feel like it might sound a bit silly or it's not their place to say I think the platform's key for anything like you highlight the good give them the opportunity to share their stories and then people relax and like you say they get a bit more comfortable.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.720
Maybe they'll get too comfortable and share things you don't want to know but that's better than nothing, isn't it?
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:58.640
How do you feel about those people who you know very very comfortable in an organisation they really love their job but they're ambitious and they might have reached that ceiling what where what should what advice do you give to those those women men potentially in those situations who are you know they really love what they do but they might just be ready for that next challenge and it might not be at said company for 18 months, two years what what would you advise those people in those positions to do?
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:16.319
You know if you think about when you're what what your personal indicators are for when you're ready to to move on are you getting itchy feet are you getting a bit bored is it a bit easy sometimes that's really important that you sit with that because depending on the stage of your life and what you've got going on that's useful sometimes.
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:26.559
But I think if it's to the point where you're starting to want more of a challenge you've got to look outward and the other thing is progression isn't always promotion.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:46.880
You know there are other ways to progress within an organization and I don't think people talk about that enough and that that came up on the panel discussion last week you know you might be bored here but you might love the organisation and actually if you sidestepped into another senior leadership position but just you know developed other skills or you know that might be stimulating enough.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:52.880
And some people get pushed into promotion as well and that pushes them out because they never wanted it in the first place.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:58.880
But again they haven't got the confidence to say they feel that if they say I don't want this promotion that will look negatively on them.
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:09.119
Whereas like you say they're they're just happy in their role or they just want a bit of variety don't want added um leadership responsibilities or they don't want a larger team or they just they don't want that role.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.119
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.559
One thing this industry offers is opportunity.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:23.759
So on your point around you know like people reaching a glass ceiling there's a lot of people that have not reached a glass ceiling but they suddenly realise there's a huge opportunity out there.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:34.799
We've worked with loads of startup data center platforms and investment funds in the last 18 months and a lot of the people you hire into these C level roles within those organisations are they've been in the industry sort of 15 20 years.
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:38.640
And there's not actually that many that have been in the industry that long.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.079
But what they haven't had until the last two years is is opportunity.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:58.319
So now they're looking at it and thinking well actually I am a bit comfortable I've been in this organisation for quite a long time I know everybody you know like it I'm just coming in logging on logging off it's that type of mentality whereas now there's these brand new organisations out there or high growth.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.440
They don't even have to be new they just suddenly raised significant capital.
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:13.119
They got high growth so you've seen more leaders take on new challenges when I think about the people that are hiring it is it's not they don't like their job it's not they're looking for more money.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:16.079
It's like that's a once in a lifetime opportunity.
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:21.440
You ride in the wave of the AI revolution or whatever Jensen's calling it today.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:29.039
No difference I'm sure when industrial revolution started and you know you're responsible for one factory you're suddenly responsible for 20 factories.
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:34.480
I mean it's it's that opportunity that is probably sometimes missed by employers.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:47.119
I think why are people leaving it's like it's once in a lifetime it's generational whether that is a financial generational reward if that succeeds or it's just I'm never going to get this opportunity again to join an organisation on day one.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.240
Rarely does that happen.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:56.960
It happens all the time in recruitment I think it's one of those industries where new new businesses start all the time but in a in a large in a data centre industry there's not many day ones.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:57.200
No.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:16.480
And being part of something from day one I think is is a really exciting opportunity for some people for others it's an absolute nightmare yeah because they they they want I've got no one to work with me you know there's no one around to support but for the right people it is and I think that's created a lot of change at leadership level across the industry.
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:17.920
What does progression look like?
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:26.079
What does progress what would you hope to see this sat here this time in six months time this time in a year's time what is good progress for the females of this industry?
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:38.400
How should we be um looking what metric should we be looking at obviously satisfaction is very important salary is also important career progression is important but what what is progress to you Sarah?
00:28:38.640 --> 00:29:37.119
Retention and representation I think increased increased representation and more balanced across you know it's going to be easier in some disciplines that than others um because of you know the socialization the education and bringing women up into into STEM roles but I think better representation and and broad more diverse voices within that and I know that this is something that I've spoken about before in terms of you know female speakers and that you're going to these events and it is there is much more representation but often and this is no slight on them it's the same speakers and that isn't that's not diverse voices that's the same six women and like like you were saying Andy this is a real career accelerating period of time um and that's daunting and there'll be times that people fall flat on their face but that's all right you just got to get up and and keep going but I think it's um yeah it's it's a bit more balanced.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:30:20.640
Yeah I think representation is a big one for me because it's it's obviously I see it from pretty obvious I see it from a different lens to yourselves but when I I always go back to events and when I started going to events and like I say the the age has definitely changed the the demographics change there is more representation now which is great but I completely agree with your point around we've got to push these people forward if they're comfortable like how can we give people the platform so they can be the role models for the next generation how can we ensure they're they're comfortable in the industry you know you do still hear some not great stories um from within the industry so how do we as males make it a welcoming place for females like what can I do to help more females come into the industry and that applies to any demographic.
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:28.079
You know what can me as a white white middle aged male right in the smack bang middle of the demographic of this industry what can I do?
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:29.519
And everyone should look at it like that.
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:34.400
Everyone shouldn't look at it as oh it's all right Lizzie's doing critical careers and Sarah's doing a mentor program.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.319
Do something like what can you do?
00:30:36.480 --> 00:31:02.319
And if you're not comfortable to do something give ideas to people and and help them there's a lot of great change I think happening there's definitely more representation there's definitely more initiatives like we've talked about like your own but we can still do a lot more to put individuals at the forefront of this industry and not have the same speakers at at every event and learn I work with some of the events and I know they some of them do some great work trying to change that.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:11.839
Obviously it's there's a level of dictation from the customer as well yeah we know how it all works but I think if you're comfortable to talk at events maybe put it forward as well like get out there.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.559
I'm happy to push people into the front.
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:27.119
It is a bit daunting to speak at events but I suppose the more and more you do it the more you're outside of your comfort zone the the more comfortable you become I do wonder on that though I I think largely it's about are you asked?
00:31:27.279 --> 00:32:01.599
And actually running the speaker series with with with Joyce and Katrona now there are some unbelievable speakers who are women and they're not asked which is obviously why Katrona started it in the first place which is okay well what if you could fail really safely in a room of other of other women but until conference you know event organisers stop charging you to speak on a stage you're only gonna get a really limited number of voices that's a massive bugbear of mine like to speak for hours about I think I think most people would agree with that point.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.880
You understand the commercial aspect of it and how it works.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:27.279
But yeah it's it's a it's a valid point and I think it's about ensuring that people are asked for the right reasons as well I get asked to talk at events and it's Andy can you talk at this event because we'd like you to promote the event no I'll talk at the event if you think I can add value to it but if you want me to talk about liquid calling I know nothing about it just so I'm going to post about your event you honestly you'd be better off getting someone that's an expert in that area.
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:44.079
So I think it's it's being asked for the right reasons as well like you say there are we need to ensure representation's there but equally we need to ensure that the great people in the whether it's females or any any government the great people that have great stories to tell are given the opportunity to to share it.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:55.680
And I know that through the podcast and I'm sure you've seen it through critical careers if you give people that little platform they suddenly do get asked but no one really pushes them forward or or where do you go if it's yourself and you want to do it.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:56.640
Like who do you talk to?
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:57.359
No one really knows.
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:06.880
So one of my hopes is that um women won't just be pro the feet all female panel won't just be profiled to just talking about being a female in this industry.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:13.839
But I always find it a really difficult topic to talk about because obviously I'm a I'm a massive advocate like I push my daughters into doing anything.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.519
Like you should be able to do anything I did.
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:16.640
That's the way I look at it.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:27.839
But it is a difficult subject to talk about as a as a male because you're trying to talk about it in the right way and but I completely agree like I see some panels and I just think this panel's clearly a staged panel.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:56.240
Like and that applies not just to female to others but it's more evident isn't it when it's four three four five females you think you've done that sort of intentionally yeah and then the topic and the subject as well whereas I might know some of the people on that panel and I know that they've got exceptional capability in an area and they don't even get the chance to talk about that that area what they're good at and and yet I guess if you're a female in the a young female in the audience you're not looking at it thinking I'd really like to be like that person.
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:58.720
Look at what they've achieved because you don't get the opportunity to hear.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:08.079
So obviously there is a skill shortage in this in this industry we need to speak outside of our industry as we've mentioned before because we are becoming an echo chamber.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:18.559
How what advice and encouragement would you give where are you looking outside how are you recruiting from outside to fill the the skill shortage that we have in your respective fields?
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:26.480
We absolutely look outside and we're on the you know within the data centre sector we're generally on the on the construction design development side of things.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:45.039
So for us we'll look at other asset classes and bringing people in whether that's on the telecom side or the industrial logistics and actually I think people are aware of that that now that they that they have to look outside and that you know to your point earlier you you're not going to come with the five years data centre experience.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:35:09.039
But also you know there is a there's a geographical there's more openness around um geographical mobility you know a huge part of what we do is relocating talent not always favourably to to the UK because often it's from the UK but you know when you've got these massive schemes elsewhere that's really attractive to young people and we'd rather give them those opportunities to stay in the sector and that they can you know bring that back in time.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:14.159
So yeah I'd say geographical mobility um and other asset classes from from our perspective.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:19.519
Yeah and I think it's much easier than it used to be because people largely know that data centres exist now.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:34.239
They have an opinion now I've I I won't go into the negative I think I think the negative aspect and the PR will have a huge impact on talent I will say that because younger generations actually care and if they think that this is a negative industry then they won't want to join it.
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:38.559
So it's important that we change we won't get into the PR debate but it's important that we change that.
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:50.480
But I think yeah it is much easier now that people understand it's an industry and the opportunity's there and there's growth that's made it a an easier conversation I still think the biggest challenge is people genuinely think it's really technical and difficult.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:56.000
And that's why one of the reasons why I started the podcast because everyone thought everyone was an engineer and everyone was a like a tech genius.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:02.239
And don't get me wrong some people are but a lot of us are you can have a really successful career without being an engineer.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:22.960
So I think demystifying the industry has helped with that like people actually think oh I can you know I can work in any role finance, project management, accounts, marketing doesn't matter what it is you don't have to be an engineer so that's definitely helped and and from from a recruitment perspective it's our job is to advise the clients that some of the best talent in this industry didn't come from the data center industry.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:25.920
And as everyone always says we all start with no experience.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:38.960
And as more of them come in that you know you've got more open-minded diverse thoughts you're going to bring more diversity of thought is a massive change like it used to be so I I don't ever listen to my podcast but I reckon if I go back five years and listen to them.
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.000
You should listen to them I can't listen to mine either oh god it's guys you don't know what you're missing.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:59.440
I'll be moaning about the lack of diversity of thought in it yeah like so much has come from other industries and it goes the other way as well we're do we're this industry is like massively impacting the the world really and other industries a lot of the technology we're creating will have a huge impact on other industries.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:07.920
So diversity of thought's really important and I think companies do understand that now on your point like out of necessity I think but they've now seen evidence.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:08.880
Seen the benefits.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:15.920
Yeah they've gone oh shit you know they're actually really good maybe we should get more people from oil and gas or from power or process or whatever it might be.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:30.159
Well thank you so much for your contribution to today's discussion it was really worthwhile and just to both of you individually for all the hard work that you do um in addition to your roles of promoting these opportunities for women um yeah personally really grateful to you both thank you.
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.559
No thank you thanks for tuning in to this episode of Critical Careers.
00:37:34.719 --> 00:38:03.440
A special thank you to our founder KO Data and to our strategic partners CBRE, AVK, Evershin Sutherland, JL, and Mace Construct for their support in making the Critical Careers Initiative possible CBRE supports mission critical infrastructure through a fully integrated life cycle service model for the world's leading hyperscalers, co-location providers and enterprises.
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:16.079
From site selection through build and operations, CBRE's integrated offering aligns real estate, facilities and technology to reduce risk, optimize performance and maximize uptime.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:29.679
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