"After Ground Zero" with Mike Kelly

Gretchen Hoak: Welcome to the Informed Reporting Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gretchen Hoke. Today I'm excited to be kicking off season two with such an accomplished journalist. Mike Kelly is an award-winning columnist for the record in New Jersey and for USA Today. He's the author of three acclaimed books, and on this episode, we talk about his fourth, the just released After Ground Zero: Everyday Americans and the Unhealed Scars of 9-11. The book chronicles the past 25 years since that fateful day through the eyes of those who survived it. We talk about his personal connection to the nine eleven story, the challenges and triumphs of writing this book, and lessons for journalists on how they can take care of both themselves and the folks they interview when telling stories of tragedy. Mike Kelly, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast. I'm really honored that you wanted to be a part of this, and I'm excited to talk to you. You've had such a a distinguished career, and I'm really interested in what you have to say. So thank you again for being willing to come on today.
Mike Kelly: Thanks so much, Gretchen. I I'm really it's really a privilege to be doing this. I I appreciate you calling me.
Gretchen Hoak: talk a little bit about yourself, your job, how you got into journalism, and you know, just so for people who aren't familiar with you.
Mike Kelly: Well, I've been a journalist for over 50 years. and I I started and I'm probably one of the weirdest people in journalism. I have worked at one newspaper that entire time. but I've been very blessed. I w my home base is is the record in northern New Jersey, used to be called the Bergen Record. it's a regional newspaper that's well known for punching above its weight, as they say. And I've been very blessed. The newspaper has sent me all over the world. I've reported from Northern Ireland, Iraq, Cuba on three different occasions, Israel, Gaza, the West Bank on four different occasions, from Africa, Southeast Asia, and all over the country. And they've also allowed me to write books while I'm working as well. So I've I'm the author of four nonfiction books. the latest being my my narrative about It's called Afterground Zero, Everyday Americans and the Unhealed Scars of 9-11. and I'm continuing to write a column now with with the USA Today Network, which is which now owns the record. And so many of my columns are circulated around the country, which is a real blessing in itself as well.
Gretchen Hoak: So obviously with having written the book and your proximity to New York, you were there on nine eleven, you covered it. Can you talk a little
Mike Kelly: It was.
Gretchen Hoak: bit about what your experience was on that day when you got there and and the things that you remember from it?
Mike Kelly: Sure. I had worked the weekend before that. This was a Tuesday morning, and I had worked the night before. So believe it or not, I was actually hoping for an easy day. I mean, I d I know that's unusual, right?
Gretchen Hoak: Famous lost words.
Mike Kelly: so I came into work very early and I listened to some voicemails. The governor of New Jersey was calling up to tell me he thought my column was horrible. And and I was answering some mail from readers and then Our morning news editor, Susan DeSantis, called out across the newsroom and said, Mike, I just heard a plane hit the World Trade Center. So my desk was near the windows of our newsroom. I could look out, and about 13 miles away, I could see the Trade Center and I saw smoke coming out of the North Tower. I walked across the newsroom. I was kind of privately cursing to myself, thinking some some fool in a small plane was probably trying to fly between the two towers. And when I flipped on the TV, I realized that this was no small plane. So I grabbed my backpack and I just ran to my car. And then I made my way to the waterfront in Jersey City, New Jersey, which is directly across the Hudson River from the World Trade Center. And that day, I don't many folks probably recall that day, it was just a pristine day. The sky was this just beautiful blue. The sun was golden. the air temperature was just, you know, perfect. And all of a sudden it was just dark. The the clouds of smoke coming from across the river that I could see were quite frankly scary. They were, they were just these huge gray and brown mushroom clouds. I I felt I needed to get across the river, so I saw a tugboat that had been tied up to a dock. And I saw some police officers and firefighters and EMTs getting on it and along with some Catholic priests. And so I asked if I could jump on too, and they basically said we don't care. And so I did. And then I crossed the river and I walked into ground zero about two hours after the towers fell. And I didn't come home for three days. So that was my first experience. And then I just kept going back.
Gretchen Hoak: That was gonna be my next question. You you you chose to continue to go back, you saw the the need for those stories. What kind of toll did that take on you, that sort of drive to continue to to go back and and and and focus on what was happening?
Mike Kelly: It's a great question you asked, Gretchen, because you know, a couple of days after the attacks, I was standing there and to see this this rubble pile, it was it it was the the scale of it was just beyond comprehension in some respects. I had never seen anything like this. Just try to imagine 16 acres just piled high with huge steel beams, pipes that were twisted like spaghetti. Concrete broken all over the place, all kinds of office equipment and papers just blown out and on the sidewalks and on top of everything. and I was standing there it was pretty early on and feeling really quite useless because around me there was police and firefighters who were desperately scratching, literally some of them on their hands and knees. At the rubble to try to find their comrades. at this point, we all bel we believed they were mostly dead, but you know, they were looking for that that miracle, so to speak, in the rubble if somebody survived. And then there were construction workers coming in, particularly the steel workers with their with their welding torches and stuff who were taking apart some of the steel beams. And there were FBI agents searching the area for evidence and clergy walking around and comforting people who were who were having trouble with this scene. And I was standing there, I'm thinking, what is my job here? I I'm I'm just doing what? And and I think this is a common thing with a lot of reporters covering tragedies like this because you wonder, well well what can I do? Because i it was a moment when you I think as as an American you want to help out, but that was not my job. And plus I I didn't I didn't I I I really didn't know how to be a construction worker or a firefighter or a cop. So it I I had this thought, I said, you know, I am just gonna keep telling the stories about these people. And that's how I began. And it it it sounds like a light bulb moment, you know, going off in my head, but it really was. It was a kind of epiphany almost where I felt this is what I want to do. I just wanna start telling the stories of ground zero. And that's how I began. And I just kept going back over and over and over again and and writing about what was going on there.
Gretchen Hoak: I imagine absorbing those stories had to eventually take a little bit of a toll on you personally because those details were so tragic and there were so many people that had been affected. Do you remember a a time when you started, I guess, beginning to feel the the weight of of everything that you were doing?
Mike Kelly: Sure. about a year later, and and the that first year was extremely hectic, extremely chaotic. we were just we had we had a staff of over 300 people at the newspaper. On the first day, it was all hands on deck. I can remember w one of our sports writers who was who was covering the New York Knicks basketball team. he was drawn in to write one of the long news stories that had 40 40 bylines on it. myself included, contributing to it. and I was writing column after column after column from the scene, basically trying to capture the scene itself and the emotions that were that were that were there. And this came out in v many different ways with with victims' families showing up to try to either pray or just you know, ask where is my loved one? There were people posting pictures on telephone polls all over lower Manhattan. you know, where is my wife? Where is my daughter? Where's my son? and and these were folks who were not soldiers on some distant battlefield. These were people that we all could relate to. They were just going to work, you know, there were there were carpenters who were. working on office rehabilitations in the trade center. There were dishwashers in the restaurants, janitors, stockbrokers who were handling million dollar trades, c secretaries, clerks, computer technicians, you name it. And plus, plus, there were over 400 first responders. 343 of them were firefighters who were missing. So this was an extremely tense and sad scene and At the end of that first year, and I had I had gone through a whole number of of assignments, some of which were self-imposed. about halfway through the year, I went to my editors and I said, I just don't feel I'm getting deep enough into the emotional story here. And I asked, I w I I embarked on a project that took me all the way to Southeast Asia, in which I was tracing The rebuilding of the lives of of a group of people on one particular floor. So I I spent days with these folks and dozens of interviews with each person in writing about the journey from escaping that day to actually trying to rebuild their lives. And a lot of that was psychological. A lot of them were going through a kind of PTSD experience. I think some of that rubbed off on me, and I'll tell you how. At the end of the first year, my newspaper. To its credit, hired a a psychologist and said, Listen, you need to come in and talk to the staff. And she did. And they took about a maybe 15 of us who were heavily involved in the coverage, and they put us all in a room. and they we all sit in a circle, and this woman said, Listen, just talk to me about how you feel. And There were editors who were feeling guilty that they had sent people into harm's way. There were photographers who had taken pictures of people jumping out of the buildings. This is keep in mind, this is a year later, they're talking about this. And they came to me and I said, I started talking about ground zero. And I it was just a kind of spontaneous you know emotion on my part, but I did not realize how. deeply affected I was by that situation down there. I mean, I had, I think as journalists, you know, operating with a notebook, you have it's it's kind of a shield, you know, you you hold your notebook up and you've got your shield in front of you, right? And and also too, you're able to, as a writer, you you have to keep a distance. But in a situation like this, when you put that notebook down, You can't help but be affected by some of this stuff. I mean, I saw pieces of bodies pulled out of the pile. I I saw, you know, people get injured just going into the pile. I went underground with search and rescue teams. And so I would I felt I was really experiencing a lot of this, and you just can't be around that kind of a situation without it impacting you. So I I realized then that I probably was deeply affected by this. In fact, the the editor of my newspaper actually took me aside and he said, listen, I think, you know, you've been heavily involved in this. And it I thank him to this day for doing that because I needed to start taking care of myself.
Gretchen Hoak: Well, and it's nice to hear that there was some awareness about the the toll that the story could be taking on their staff because a lot of times nine eleven is sort of looked at as kind of the awakening of a weight. We need to really look at journalists, not just war journalists, but but you know, the the daily news journalists, the domestic
Mike Kelly: Sure.
Gretchen Hoak: journalists. This there's, you know, some potential impact here from the work. So it's nice to hear that you're employers were kind of ahead of the curve a little bit and were trying to at the very least be aware of the toll that that story would be taking on folks, especially like you, who were very much immersed in it.
Mike Kelly: look, we're all people and you if you if you go through life, things aff if things impact you and we all have our ways of dealing with that. For me, you know, I have you know for me writing is a is a is not only is not only a job, but it's also a an a an and particularly writing a column. It's an opportunity for me to kind of explore what's going on inside me. So that's a gift. however, we when you when you're involved in something this traumatic, where this many people are dead, and you're going to so many funerals, that you need to take, I think as a journalist, you need to take stock of what impact this is having on you. And and it comes out in weird ways, you know, you get start snapping at people, or you know, you maybe become a little more impatient, you know, when you really shouldn't. And so there are signs that crop up. And thankful, you know, I I I I'm not I'm not gonna try to impress upon you that I was, you know, I was I was a basket case, but I must tell you that it it did impact me. And and and I would be lying if if I if I said it didn't.
Gretchen Hoak: Despite the impact and sort of the you know, the mental and emotional hardship of trying to cover the story, it really became sort of something that you continued to cover for years
Mike Kelly: Yes.
Gretchen Hoak: after you really, you know, sort of dug in to the story and started branching out in in terms of how did it happen and and really trying to investigate what was going on. What drove that? How did this become sort of your story, if you will, for two decades?
Mike Kelly: Well, it goes back to that moment I talked about where I just decided to keep chipping away at the story as best I could. but I, you know, I I I I here here the here is where I put on my journalist hat. This was a really terrific and meaningful story to cover. I'm not gonna lie about that. And I was also I was just so curious, As to about this question. How could somebody become so angry with somebody, with a a a race of people or another country that they are that they are willing in the name of God to kill so many innocent people? And I was seeing this happen and I I didn't really even know about this in my own in my own career, but As I started thinking about it, I had been covering this kind of thing off and on for a very long time. I'll I'll give you an example. In the late 1970s, I was down in Alabama on assignment and I ended up writing about a resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan, a group of people incredibly angry with another group of people wanting to do harm to them. years later, I was writing about some of the domestic terrorism that took place. not only in i in the 1970s in particular you know the murder of a of a new jersey state trooper by the black liberation army in the 1980s i was heavily involved in covering the aftermath of the locker bee bombings to the point where i was i was going to people's homes and seeing the impact Of what this kind these kinds of deaths have on people. and then before I went to before 9-11, I was dispatched to Africa on assignment to write about healthcare. And while I was over there, my driver, and I talk about this in the prologue to my book, my driver said to me, Listen, we were in Nairobi, Kenya, and my driver said to me, Listen, I I want to I want to take you by the embassy that was attacked by Al Qaeda. And I said, No, I don't want to do that. I have to get out in the hills. I I I have some doctors. I'm writing about. And he said, No, no, no, no, no. You gotta see this. I said, All right. And I went to see it, and I'm and I was just stunned at the devastation. This this was the bombings that took place by Osama bin Laden's operatives, slightly more than a year before 9/11. They were in some in some cases a A precursor to 9 11. The US Embassy was bombed in Tanzania and in Nairobi, Kenya. And we, of course, our as a country kind of moved on from that. It was far away. It wasn't right here on our own soil. but the more I looked back on it after covering 9 11, I was I was heading in this direction. So after ground zero was cleaned up and We s the the story started to take a turn toward more of a question of who did this, why did they do it? And I was I I really wanted to write about that. So I asked my newspaper if I could go to cover the 911 Commission in Washington. So I spent a lot of time doing that. And then after that, we had the invasion of Iraq. There was the war already in Afghanistan. and so s A number of years passed, and I I asked if I could embed with a group of soldiers going to Iraq, which I did and spent time over there. So I felt I and then when I came back, I we still had con even more questions about how the still how did the 9-11 attacks take place? And what I noticed was among the people who were victims of this. that there was an extraordinary amount of pain that was existing over a period of time. So I I felt I didn't want these people to be forgotten. So I just decided to keep writing about them and I did.
Gretchen Hoak: Is that the I guess sort of the impetus for your book? At I guess at what point did you kind of realize this is a one, this is a book, and two, I wanna be the one to write it?
Mike Kelly: Well, it's a another good question. this actually started in some respects be with another book that I was doing. I was in in around 2007, I I I had a I had a I was really blessed to have a terrific book editor by the name of Sam Vaughn. He's now deceased, but Sam had kind of taken me on at the end of his career and he was really a tr terrific editor. He Had edited Dwight Eisenhower's memoirs. He had edited Duke Ellington's memoir. He had edited Fried Green Tomatoes. Remember that book? Okay. And
Gretchen Hoak: Yeah.
Mike Kelly: and and and hired as when he was publisher of Doubleday, he had hired Jacqueline Kennedy Onassus. He took me on at the very end of his career. And I was having lunch with him in 2007. And I said, Sam, I really want to write about terrorism, but I just don't know how. And he said, at that point in time, I had just been on another assignment in Israel, and I had tracked one particular suicide bombing that had taken place over there that was hugely consequential, in which some Americans were killed, including several from New Jersey. And I was writing about that, but I asked the Israelis if I I found out that the Israelis had caught. the mastermind of this plot. He was a bomb maker for the terrorist group Hamas. So I asked the Israelis if I could interview him and I wrote I did in prison. and I wrote about it. And I talked to my, I told Sam, my book editor, about this. And he said, that's your book. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, he said, just start with that. So I did. And that became a book called The Bus on Jaffa Road, which was which which I wrote in which I explored the ramifications of this one suicide bombing in in Jerusalem. From that I started thinking, well, is there a book with 9-11 that I could write? And keep in mind there was a lot of books being written about 9-11. So I I kind of put that to use a bad pun here, I put it on a shelf, the idea, and just went on with my work. But as we got closer to the 25th anniversary, and this was sometime in 2024, I was looking at some of my coverage over the years, and I said, you know, I'd really like to go back and track how some of these folks were affected by 9-11. And so that's where I started, and I I decided I would try to write a 9-11 history. from what I call the ground up. Most histories of these large events are written and understandably through the perspectives of, you know, the what was the president thinking, what were the military leaders thinking, what were variety of political leaders thinking, etc. I wanted to write this from the what I call the bottom up, from the voices of ordinary people and how this had impacted impacted them. So I then started assembling a what I felt were a a diverse group of of characters. I I I I have roughly 26 in this book. I could have picked another 26 or even another 100 if I wanted to. There there were just so many. But I wanted to have folks who represented a variety of different elements of the 911 story. For example, the Iraq issue, the Guantanamo Bay issue, that quote kind of thing. And I also wanted to be able to track them over time. And so that's how I pulled together these group of voices, I would call them. And and they range from police and firefighters who responded to people who escaped the towers in the Pentagon to people who lost people in in in the attacks. one of my characters is an FBI agent who was assigned to the CIA and who still feels guilty that he wasn't able to stop the attacks. and another is a young woman who was only four years old when she lost her father. And now she's she's a medical doctor, and she's in her residency, and she's become a national voice in America over the questions of whether the Saudi Arabian government was involved in the 9-11 attacks. So I wanted to. carry this narrative over a period of 25 years. Not an easy thing to do, but I felt when I started looking at some of the people that I had encountered over the years and others that I knew about, I felt I could pull this together through the voices of all these different people. And that's that's how I began. And then I just started calling them up and talking to them.
Gretchen Hoak: So the book is called Afterground Zero: Everyday Americans and the Unhealed Scars of 9-11. As you were compiling all of this and bringing this all together, I imagine that meant repeated interviews over an extended period of time
Mike Kelly: Yes.
Gretchen Hoak: just in order to get what you needed. What was that effort like trying to continue to to talk to these folks and and experiencing their, you know, really hard Moments and and memories that are still very fresh. What was that like?
Mike Kelly: Well, first of all, it's a blessing. one of the one of the problems we have in jer in daily journalism, and you've probably faced this as a television journalist, is that we parachute into a city, community, a neighborhood, a house with a family, and then we get out and the circus moves on and we rarely go back and have the opportunity to f quote, as we say, follow up and And so this was a real blessing. And I looked at it that way. I also told people, I said, look, what we're going to be talking about here is really difficult. If there's any moment where you want to stop, just stop. So, because I knew I could come back. And that's the that's the real gift of being able to do this kind of work. I I actually started this when on my first book, which was about the a shooting of a a a white police officer shooting an African American kid and all the racial turmoil that that that erupted in the in a particular town that I was writing about. And I I was able for that particular book, I wanted to tell that story through the voices of a a group of 10 characters. And I spent in some cases I went back to them 20 times. in this case I I I didn't go back 20 times, but I probably went back, you know, in many cases 10, a dozen, sometimes on the phone, some a lot of times in person. And a lot of times it was just I I'm I believe in asking very tiny questions like, you know, what did you do next? what were you thinking when you did that? And and take me back to that moment if you can. You know, that th those kinds of things. rather than asking l the larger questions about, you know, how do you feel that sort of thing, which by the way is a good question to ask, but I try to ask it in a tiny way. you know, what what were you thinking at that moment when you were, you know, when you first saw, say, the rubble pile or that sort of thing. And so that's how I operate. And and what I did is I I recorded everything and then I would listen to the recordings afterwards. I took careful notes and then I would circle back with the with the folks that I was interviewing to check faxes a toward the end. It was a it was a very intense period because I I didn't have a lot of time to do it. I couldn't take five years to do this. And I wish I could have so in some respects.
Gretchen Hoak: I imagine that you must have done a great deal of work and relationship building and compassion and empath empathy with these folks in order for them to be willing to talk to you multiple times and be open to continuing to discuss their experiences with you.
Mike Kelly: You know, I think you have as a journalist, I think you have to meet people where they are where they're at. I'll tell you a story. early on in in the nine eleven just after the nine eleven attacks, I came across a police sergeant who had been the think of him as the desk sergeant in the lobby of the North Tower. what happened there on the day of the attacks is all the police and fire command people went into the lobby of the North Tower. They never imagined that the tower would fall. So that's where they set up their command posts. So this particular sergeant, it was his job to basically order police officers to various spots in the tower and below. And he and and many of the many of the men and women that he sent to various posts died. They never made it out. But he made it out somehow. I don't know how he made it out, but somehow he escaped. I saw him about a week later and I said to him, I said, Would you like to talk? And he said, I just can't. I just can't. And I said, Okay. And I think journalists, you need to let people have their their space. Okay. And I I do that. I I don't I I the way I look at it is I I I think of it as a baseball player. Let the ball come to you, you know. And and and I know that sounds crazy perhaps to say as a journalist because we're supposed to be so aggressive, but I find it's better to just let our better angels take over and let let the ball come to you. So I said to this sergeant, I said, not a problem. Don't worry. Ten years later, ten years later, Gretchen, the phone on my desk rings. It's him. I I
Gretchen Hoak: Wow.
Mike Kelly: want it I want to talk. I'm almost getting choked up as I think about it. Yeah. I mean, and and and that's when he I ca I went over to his house and he he talked me through what he had been experiencing. I was actually considering him as a character in this book, but I I I I this he I decided not to, in part because I had, you know, because his story in in many respects I think embodies a lot of what people experienced at that time. but I wanted to sort of broaden that experience. But that's just one of the examples of I think how we encounter folks on their terms. Many of the folks that I spoke with changed over time. For example, there was an army captain that I accompanied to a I I went to see him. he he was a captain in a National Guard unit here in New Jersey, and they were training. I went through their training with them. And then when they went to Iraq, I went over to to visit them and spend time with them. And he and then he came home. He was, of course, very gung ho over in Iraq and very much the you know believer in what was happening over there. But after he came home, he changed quite a bit. And so chronicling that change over time was allowed me to really give him the space to talk. And I I just wanted to, you know. I just wanted to basically say to folks, listen, I'm here to hear your story, not to direct it in a particular way. And and so that's what I tried to do. I think giving space to people is very important.
Gretchen Hoak: In the foreword of your book, I thought you put it really beautifully as you were describing the folks that you spoke to. And it said, each of them in some way opened a private door into themselves, allowing me to experience the deep sorrow, soul-crushing anger, and head-spinning confusion that continues to wash over them. That I just thought was such a a beautiful way to describe not only their experiences that they were willing to be. you know, shared with you and and to go through the emotions that it must have been in order for them to share that. But then I also thought of all of that of course is then washing over you and
Mike Kelly: Yeah.
Gretchen Hoak: you with all of the empathy and and compassion it seems that you sort of put in the direction of the folks that you talk to, I imagine that that had to be a lot to try to figure out how to to deal with in order to be able to to tell their stories.
Mike Kelly: It did. it it was ext sometimes extremely difficult. I mean, I I I I had to take s time after talking to some of these folks sometimes, you know, whether it's just taking a walk around the neighborhood or just simply, you know, trying to watch a television program about something else. I think And I think this this goes for a lot of folks in who do this kind of work, whether they be doctors or nurses or first responders or whatever. I mean, in some respects, journalists are first responders. And I think sometimes you need to give yourself some space to absorb what you've just experienced and then also come out the other end a little bit, because if you don't do that, you're not gonna be good the next time. If you I mean, I found myself at times you can't go to a funer I'll I'll give you an example. You can't go to a funeral where someone is burying just a a piece of someone's body. Now the I hope this doesn't I hope this doesn't sound too graphic, but so many of the people who died on nine eleven they they only found pieces of their bodies. And there's a scene in my book where the phone rings and this young woman who lost her husband, it's the medical examiner in New York City calling to say that we found your husband's arm. And then a month later they called to say that they found another piece of her husband's body. And at at that point, she just said, I I can't do this anymore. And I I I ran into a number of people who were in the same situation where they were hearing from the the city medical examiner about they were identifying pieces of bodies in a piecemeal process. And this is nothing wrong with the medical examiner. That's the that's the job they're supposed to do, but but imagine the impact on someone's life, you know, getting a call every few months or sometimes not getting a call at all. In one case I went to a funeral of a firefighter They never found his body, but the day before he had given blood. So picture this scene. They decided just because the family needed to have a grave and a funeral and some sort of for lack of a better word, closure, they took a vial of his blood, put it in a coffin, and buried that. That was the best they could do. You you can't go to these kinds of things as a journalist and not be impacted. You you get angry, you get sad, you get depressed, you know, and it comes out in various various ways, you know? And you really need to be aware of that, I think, as a journalist, when you go through it. or else, you know, you can easily fall off the deep end.
Gretchen Hoak: And I can see where a project like this being a bit of a passion project and something that you really wanted
Mike Kelly: It was.
Gretchen Hoak: to to sink your, you know, sink your teeth into and do the best that you could, I can see where that would also be problematic and that you might have been reluctant to step back. here and there to give yourself a little time to recover from the things that you were that you were listening to. Did you kind of have to sort of build that into your process? Did you, you know, were you able to give yourself that space when you needed to to kind of, you know, flush the system and and keep yourself in, you know, healthy enough to continue?
Mike Kelly: Sure. you know, it's funny. it's a great question you ask. I didn't do it consciously in the beginning, but I I found myself doing it you know, as I look back on it now, I felt I was doing it in in ways that I I didn't realize at the time. For example, I would I would just I I I find that exercise, you know, whether it's running or or playing tennis or something like that, or riding my bicycle. is is a great way to deal with these kinds of tensions on the job. so I I found myself doing that and and I found it was terrific to do. By the time I was writing this book all these years later, I knew I needed to take some space. So if I'd if I had a really heavy day of writing, I would make sure that I ended the day not by going right to bed, but by trying to do either watch a TV program or read something that had nothing to do with this, or just have a conversation with my wife or my kids or or something like that, where, you know, I I wasn't just 100% locked into this kind of coverage. Now, in the first month or so, or the actually the first year, things were so intense that I have to tell you that. I I didn't realize the impact it was having on me. And you know, I and even several years later, I remember going because I spent time at Ground Zero, I'm registered with the the national 911 Health Monitoring Project, and thank goodness I'm fine. But this is a really good program for folks. It's it's it's run by the Mount Sinai. medical school in New York, which is one of the best in the country. And it's it's not just a research project where they're taking information about folks, but they're they also offer treatment and advice and counseling for people who have particular problems. And I remember one day at I you go once a year to to a series of tests where you get blood taken and chest x-ray and things like that. They end with you s sit with a social worker. And I remember sitting with a social this young woman, a social worker, and sh I don't know what it was. She just asked me how I was doing and I just found myself choke up for a second. I said, I just, you know, and I didn't break down and start crying or anything like that, but I just it was that reminder that I needed to just say, Hey, hey, Mike, you know, you this has been a very intense experience for you. Just be aware of that, you know. And there's nothing we can really do to prevent that. But I think if you're aware of it, it's it it's really helpful. that way you don't start doing going off into, you know, doing stupid things and behaving in ways that you really shouldn't.
Gretchen Hoak: You had mentioned on a podcast with USA Today where you had come on to talk about your book, you had mentioned that there were times that while you were writing you found yourself overcome with emotion and kind
Mike Kelly: yeah.
Gretchen Hoak: of, you know, crying and and just really feeling what it was you were trying to write. That's sort of the exact opposite of what we're trained. you know, with the idea of as journalists that that's like not the thing that should happen because we're supposed to be those objective observers. When those things were happening, you know, when you felt yourself overcome with emotion in the process of putting this book together, how were you open to that? Were you, you know, did you welcome it? Did you understand that it was okay and necessary, or did you feel that sort of journalistic like, hey, wait a minute, I'm I'm not supposed to to be feeling this way.
Mike Kelly: Well, thankfully, you know, we I I I try to find a balance. I mean, look, I I have a job to do and I understand that. And and I I I'm sure you felt this way as a TV journalist. You know, you you know you have a job to do, you have a deadline to meet, and you you've got to do that. but at the same time, if you you can't go to something like this and not come away impacted. And if you if you think you can do that, then you're kidding yourself. So just admitting to yourself that this is going to be something that's going to impact me emotionally, psych, whatever, that just realizing that is really helpful. So when I when I'm writing this book, if I finished a particular scene, I remember some of the scenes that I was writing about where people were rescued out of the rubble, that sort of thing. Or in particular when You know, when I was when I was writing about one of the characters in the book is a woman named Terry who was at home with a four day old infant son when her husband was killed in the Trade Center. Four days old. And and yet she managed to go on and now she's become a kind of a national voice in trying to open up some of the classified files on that the FBI has kept about its investigations into 9-11. you I remember writing about Terry's experiences, particularly in those early days and talking to her about that, where I just, you know, I just sort of had to get up from the desk and just sort of walk around the house and then come back. You know, you need to really take give yourself space to do that. And I'm sure I I I know I did it as a columnist. I'm in the newsroom, I'm typing something. I just need to get up and walk away for a second. I'm sure you did it as a television journalist. You're sitting there editing some particular story and you just need to just take a break and walk away for five minutes and come back. And I think we if you're not doing that as a journalist, then you're not really being fully human. And I think The best journalists are the ones that are fully human. And that's I think part of that is recognizing the fact that you're gonna see things that make you sad and make you upset. And make you angry. And that's good. That's okay. That's what gives you a voice.
Gretchen Hoak: Yeah, I remember even from when I was reporting, if I did have those tough stories, I found I was able to get through the day. And then as soon as I got home, I'd have a good hard cry. I just, you know, let it all out. And and I think at the time I didn't understand how helpful that was. So in retrospect, I'm sort of glad that I was willing to, you know, walk through the door and and let it all out and Because I think you do have to, like you said, recognize that you're human and you are gonna react and you have to sort of give yourself space to react so that you can stay, you know, whole yourself.
Mike Kelly: And I think, Gretchen, it's natural that, and I I don't know about you when you were reporting, but I sometimes feel that what can I do? What you know, what can I do to help this at all? And and we're basically storytellers and and that's fine, but sometimes it feels doesn't it feel a little like inadequate? I mean, and I and I you know, when you see a situation where someone's in trouble. or or that sort of thing. You want to you want to you want to help those those folks as best you can someone's feeling terrible someone's very upset that kind of thing you want to you want to put your arm around them or whatever and you know I found that you you can't do that because you're there for another reason so you know it it does but but not being able to do that makes you feel terrible I mean I remember saying to somebody once I just felt I just wish I could have done more. And which was kind of a stupid thing to think about because there's nothing else I could have done that was more, right? And he probably felt that same way as a television journalist. But at the same time, it's only natural that you feel that way. And so I think it's it's good to go home and sometimes and have that good hard cry. and that's okay, you know? or just, you know, slam your notebook on the desk and say this is terrible or whatever, you know. You need to recognize the fact that this is going to affect you emotionally. Once you recognize that, I feel this is how I feel. Once I recognize that, it made me a much better writer because it freed me up to start talking about how these folks dealt with this, how they felt. And I think our our journalism is so much better when we write about how ordinary folks are affected by these large national events. whether we're covering from Washington or from some small town somewhere. I think it's always better when we see life through the lives of ordinary people.
Gretchen Hoak: Did you find that the act of writing the book and telling these stories also had a bit of a cathartic feel to it? Was it helpful to be able to do that one job that we can do, tell the story and and
Mike Kelly: Right.
Gretchen Hoak: tell it well?
Mike Kelly: Yes, yes, it really was. It really was. I'll I'll tell you how. I mean, I really wanted some of these stories to be preserved. And I'll give you an example. One of the guys in the book is a man named Derek. And I he's he's in the first chapter and he's in the epilogue, and that's deliberate. Derek Was a he wasn't even an American citizen. He had come to the United States a year before the attacks as an immigrant from Guyana. He had gotten his green card. He was working as a $10 an hour security guard in the in the South Tower of the Trade Center. And on the morning of 9-11, he he was given what he felt was a promotion. He was set he was usually a security guard on some of the lower floors. On that particular day, he was asked to go up and be a security guard on the 70th floor. So he thought this was a promotion. He had never been there before. Of course, the attacks occurred. Derek could have run, and I don't think anybody would have blamed him if he had run, but he stayed there. He made sure as many people as possible were off the floor. Then he did one more round. There was a group of staffers from the Morgan Stanley Investment House, about six of them who were left. They couldn't find a way out. All the stairways were blocked. And picture this scene. Here's Derek in the darkness. All the lights are out. Fire is literally coming up the walls inside. It's an extremely scary moment. I talked to all these Morgan Stanley folks about this. And out of the darkness, they hear this voice on a bull. He had a small bullhorn. If you hear my voice, follow me. Now, and of course. He led them to a stairwell where they were able to get out. He c he probably should have gone with them. He didn't. He made one more lap around the around the floor. Now keep in mind, these floors are the size of a football field. so he go does another lap. By the f by the time he finally gets out, he's going down the stairs. He helps two more, they were both elderly men who were having trouble coming down the stairs. He carries them out and then right after he gets out, gets them to safety, that's when the building starts to fall. And he barely escapes with his life by diving, literally running down the street and diving into another building and the r as the rubble goes by him. these are the kinds of stories that are so easily forgotten. And I wanted that to be preserved as best I could. And so that was one of the motivating factors in in doing this. And there were countless other Derek levels out there. Yeah.
Gretchen Hoak: That's amazing. That's that's quite a story.
Mike Kelly: Yeah, but it there is a certain sadness about it too. I went to see Derek and and I talk about this in the epilogue to my book. He's now living in Brooklyn. he's got several he's got cancer that's been linked to his, you know, the gr the toxins from ground zero. So his life has you know. it it's it's not a happy ending per se. He's he's on the he's on the list to have a kidney replacement, that sort of thing. so in addition to talking about his heroism, I also wanted to give dignity to what has happened to him as well. And that was that was I felt my the my job as a storyteller. I wanted these folks' lives to not just, you know, just just be forgotten or just be You know, people who were, yeah, they were heroes twenty-five years ago. No, they their lives continued. And what happened to them? Well, there's cer you know, in the case of Derek, he's struggling a little bit. Yeah. So I wanted to I wanted our n our country to know about this.
Gretchen Hoak: Talking to and interviewing people who have experienced a trauma, really trauma on any level, is a is a practice skill. And it takes some time. And obviously you have developed the the right skills to be able to do this. If again, these folks were willing to talk to you so often. How do you think you learned that? How did you get to the point where you know how to conduct interviews like this and do so in a way that makes people comfortable so that they'll continue to invite you into their lives.
Mike Kelly: Great question. I learned this when I was about 23 years old, I think. I was really a cub reporter. I was covering a small town here in New Jersey, and there was a horrible accident at the local high school where a couple of kids had put a MAD firecracker in one of those glass-enclosed fire extinguisher cabinets. And they put a delayed fuse on it. It was supposed to be a prank. Unfortunately, people were walk, students were walking to class when the when the bomb went off, and a piece of glass literally hit this young woman right in the neck. she was a cheerleader and killed her almost instantly. It was it was to say that this was traumatic is an understatement. And I was in the office that day, and one of the editors came up to me and said, Go up to the family's home. And he also said to me something that I now regard as one of the dumbest things that an editor has ever said to me. And I say this now because as a journalist, you don't listen to everything your editors tell you. I know that's probably
Gretchen Hoak: Yeah.
Mike Kelly: blasphemy, but he said to me, lean on them. Meaning, meaning, be hard on them. And I remember driving up there and thanking myself I had worn a jacket and a tie and was dressed appropriately. And I sat in the car before I knocked on the door and I just said, I can't lean on these people. So I did two things. I I put my notebook in my pocket. I knocked on the door and I said, Look, I'm I told them who I was and wh why I was there. And I said, and then I said, Listen. I really shouldn't be here right now. However, we need to I I need to just double check some information on the young woman's name was Elizabeth. And I said, and I'm thinking here, we're gonna write about this, but let's get our facts right. And I just wanted to start with that. Say, look, if if you feel comfortable, we're gonna be writing about this, but I just want to make sure we have, you know, the young woman's age correct, her spelling of her first and last names, that sort of thing. I'm not he and I and I I had no intention of saying, you know, asking the next questions, well, what do you think about this? That sort of thing. I just let it sit. And then the mother came out, and I I've never seen a I rarely see people this really traumatized. And inside the home, there were young men who were literally on the floor crying. So it was a it was a very, very emotional scene. And I spoke briefly to the mother and I just confirmed all the sort of basics that I needed to confirm. And then I said, I saw I saw a picture, you know, one of those class pictures, you know, on a shelf. And I said, Is that is that your daughter? And she said, Yeah. And I said, Look. I said, would you mind if I we took that and I said, if we were to print this in the newspaper, I will personally bring this picture back to you. And I did. And so the lesson of all this is be gentle, be kind, but also be a human being. And I was able to get what I needed. I didn't need to lean on this family. And then as time went on, I became You know, we my this mother and I stayed in contact with each other. And that would not have happened if I had come to that door and you know just pushed my way in. so I have several rules what I do. I and I offer these out for your journalism students. Put your notebook in your pocket, dress appropriately, if you can. Sometimes you're just, you know, be kind. Be kind and be kind again. Just and and explain that you at least try to communicate that you understand that this is an extremely difficult moment and you it's nothing wrong with apologizing while you're there and just you know hold and just and just say look, I'm not I really I'm I'm coming into your life at a time when I really shouldn't be, but I you know it I I would like your cooperation if possible. Look at if they just slammed the door in my face, that would have been fine. I I could have checked on these this woman's this young woman's biographical information probably at the police department. But I wanted to go to the family's house and at least let them know that we are trying to do as careful a job as possible. I'm sure as a television journalist, you've run into this time and time again. How do you show up at somebody's door with a camera crew? What do you do? What's the first words out of your mouth? That kind of thing. How do you present yourself? I don't think there's anything wrong with journalists thinking about that. how we present ourselves is is is huge and it it goes a long way to not only paving the way for you know for doing your job, but it also doesn't hurt the people because, you know, they're they've been really traumatized. They've been really wounded. And I think o too often we as journalists can make those wounds deeper. We don't have to. We just hold back and just just be human. Yeah.
Gretchen Hoak: It's interesting that you say, you know, put the notebook in your pocket because as a a television reporter, we always when we had the, you know, videographers with us, camera down, microphone down, you stay on the sidewalk,
Mike Kelly: Great idea.
Gretchen Hoak: I go up to the house, and if they are comfortable with us, I will sort of introduce you into the equation. And and, you know, I think that was the same idea. You can't show up with this giant camera at the time. They're obviously smaller now, but This big old camera and a microphone and expect someone to react positively to that when they're experiencing such trauma. So it's that same idea. Mm-hmm.
Mike Kelly: Absolutely. Well, you don't have to, this is not a 60 minutes confrontation interview. I've you've been those, you've been to those, I'm sure I've done those. There are times for those. You you guys can do it, particularly with sometimes with public officials. I get that. we can all be tough, but you don't have to be that way all the time. I I I do this a lot. in I I don't take out my notebook. when I sit down to talk to somebody, I'll say, Hey, listen, would you mind if I take some notes? And nobody's ever said no. It's
Gretchen Hoak: Okay.
Mike Kelly: nobody says no, but I ask their permission to do things. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? Do you mind if we talk about, you know, this or that, that sort of thing? You know you're gonna talk about it. You know you want to talk about it, but you but you allow the person you're talking with To participate in the interview in a slightly different way. Now, if it's a confrontation interview, that's a little different. When you're trying to ask a political figure why he or she did something, you know, controversial or whatever, that's very different. But when you're talking to people who have just gone through a traumatic situation, they've been victims of a crime, they've been victims of an accident or something like that, you don't need to turn this into a confrontation. And I think you need to approach it as a conversation. Where you're just kind of introducing yourself to them. I mean, think of it as a as you're in ways of you're just introducing yourself to a friend who you never or person you've never met before, but you'd like to get to know them, that sort of thing. And I think if you just be human, I think it's important. but I think those little things were I mean, you were smart, leave your camera crew down on the street, you know, and and then then if the person wants hi, would you mind if I brought in, you know, Joe with this camera to to record this and yeah, they s by that point, maybe they say no, maybe they say yes, but at least you've given them permission to have that option. Yeah.
Gretchen Hoak: Yeah, absolutely. Different different tactics for different interviews. And that's, you know, when we're
Mike Kelly: Correct.
Gretchen Hoak: teaching, we're always trying to communicate that every, you know, every situation is gonna require a little bit of a different type of journalism and a different type of approach. And you're not always gonna be sort of the same reporter in front of this person that you might be in front of this person because the purpose of your
Mike Kelly: Yeah.
Gretchen Hoak: being there is different.
Mike Kelly: But isn't that isn't that what life is like? For example, you go to get your car fixed at the gas station. Maybe you have you know, and maybe you're upset with the job that the guy's doing. Maybe you have a different kind of conversation than you might have with someone who's, you know, your next door neighbor, who, you know, and you know, you need to borrow something from them or whatever, or they're borrowing something from I mean, you know, it we life is a is a series of of different meetings and I think we as journalists need to remember that because it apply it makes us better journalists if we accept that and don't you know walk in with the same attitude on every interview. I I really believe it's really important to kind of think about what you're going to be doing as you do it. think about it ahead of time how you're going to do this. And that just doesn't mean writing out your questions ahead of time. I think a lot of it has to do with what's the first what what is what's the first thing that you want to do with this person? and and and really kind of psych it out a little bit ahead of time. There's nothing wrong with that, you know. think of it as a you know, sometimes football teams will game out the first five or ten plays of a game. I don't think we need to do that as journalists, but I think it helps to really think about how we are how how we're going to approach something, particularly if it's an interview with a person who's suffering from some difficult situation. particularly
Gretchen Hoak: yeah.
Mike Kelly: if it's a person who's never been interviewed before. Imagine that. I mean there's lots of political figures who have been interviewed many times. When you take out your phone and start recording something, they're used to that. But imagine the shock of somebody who's never been interviewed before and all of a sudden you just lay your phone on the table and and they go, What are you doing? Are you recording me? Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with saying, hey, listen, I'm I'd like to take some notes. Do you mind? And and also it helps me if I record this because then I'll be able to you know follow my notes easier or something like that. I mean, it's just kind of and sometimes they'll say no and they say, okay, you know, And then then you gotta, you know, just take better notes. But you know, these things happen.
Gretchen Hoak: Well, t telling stories like these, like the ones in the book are are so important and it's just such such beautiful but hard work to do. Looking back on the project now that the the book is published, is there anything that you learned from this process of of putting this together?
Mike Kelly: Yes. a couple of things. I I didn't know if I would I didn't know if I should do this or I begin the book with me on a boat and and I end the book with me on a boat and I didn't know if I could if I should or put myself into this story the way I did And it's only those two, those I bookended the prologue and the epilogue with with me on a boat. and I'm glad I did that. And my I guess my point is, is don't be afraid to recognize that you are part of this story. Don't have to be in the story, but you're part of it. You're there. You're you're, you know, and you don't have to be. you know, the assistant or something like that. It's you know, sometimes sports reporters get a little too close to the team and the coach and that sort of thing. I get that. and and sometimes, you know, one of the dangers of embedding, say, with a with a military unit during a conflict, you can get a little too close to those folks. But I think if you if you recognize the fact that you are close to that, there's nothing wrong with realizing that yes, you're part of this. And so I I I felt as I wrote the book, I felt I needed to begin with me and I needed to end with me. And and so that's why I did did it. So that's why I did it the way I did it. And I I guess that was a little bit of a self-discovery. You know, this wasn't just me telling some story over here. That that that this was me diving into this story. And actually I wrote the author's note that you read from, you know, about, you know, understanding the, you know, some of the experiences that these folks had. And I refer to it as sacred ground. And I think as reporters, if we realize that we are we are not just reporting on someone's trauma, but that we are walking that sacred ground with people, I think we'll be better writers and reporters.
Gretchen Hoak: Such a such a good way to put it and I think a really beautiful way to sort of describe the role a journalist can play, especially in big historic moments like this. Well, the book is again After Ground Zero, Everyday Americans and the Unhealed Scars of 9-11. absolutely wonderful book, and hopefully this podcast will encourage more folks to to go out and get it. It just came out in August, I believe, if I am getting that right. If people will
Mike Kelly: It did. It did right before nine eleven.
Gretchen Hoak: If people would like to find you, learn more about you, learn more about the book, where where can they find you?
Mike Kelly: Well, I have a website. It's called Mike Kellywriter.com and I'm I'm just rebuilding it. So give me a week or so. no,
Gretchen Hoak: Ha ha
Mike Kelly: it's it's there. It's there now, but it's in pr it's it's it's under construction, as they say in the digital world. but no,
Gretchen Hoak: Yeah.
Mike Kelly: Mike Kellywriter dot com. and if they want to email me, email me at Mike Kellywriter at gmail dot com. I'd be happy to hear from some of your students if you'd like.
Gretchen Hoak: Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I've enjoyed hearing about your process of putting this book together and and your thoughts on in conducting these types of interviews. So I really appreciate your time.
Mike Kelly: Well, Gretchen, let me thank you. I think the work that you're doing is just really spectacular and inspiring. And I'm so glad you're doing this with your students. it's so important to, you know, to really talk about how we do our craft. And it, you know, journalism is not just a matter of typing and using technology and that sort of thing. It's a lot about, you know, the human side as well. And so I'm really glad you're exploring this. I and I commend you for it.
Gretchen Hoak: Well, thank you so much. You've been listening to the Informed Reporting Podcast with me, Dr. Gretchen Hoak. If you liked what you heard today, please like and follow us on Spotify or Apple podcasts and feel free to leave us a positive review. To keep the conversation going and for more information and content between shows, Please follow us on Instagram @ informedreportingpodcast. Our music is Casual Fridays by 1000 Handz, used through a Creative Commons license from Free Music Archive. This podcast is produced independently of my teaching and research roles in the School of Media and Journalism at Kent State University. The information shared here reflects my views and those of my guests and is not reflective of the views or official policies of my institution. If you have any questions or ideas for guests or topics, please email us at informedreportingpodcast@gmail.com. ⁓