The Departed

WEBVTT
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Hi, welcome to In Sync, the podcast that explores the history and impact of
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some of your favorite music moments in TV and film. I'm your host, Rachel Brodsky.
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And I'm just looking for the microprocesses.
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Martin Scorsese's 2006 crime thriller epic,
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The Departed, is a bleak portrait of post-911 Boston, a blatantly racist and
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xenophobic mishmash where cops pose as bad guys and bad guys pose as cops.
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Loosely based on the real life winter hill gang the departed features a 2000s
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hollywood who's who cast we've got leo dicaprio matt damon jack nicholson and
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mark walberg with martin sheen ray winstone vera farmago alec baldwin anthony
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anderson james badgedale all in supporting roles in one.
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Of the movie's opening montages where charming yet ultra violent irish crime
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boss Jack Nicholson, aka Frank Costello, introduces himself to a young Colin Sullivan,
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later played by Matt Damon, in the 80s, we hear the Rolling Stones' 1969 war
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protest anthem featuring Mary Clayton, Gimme Shelter.
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Scorsese sure does love a Gimme Shelter gangster movie needle drop.
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He's used it three times, first in Goodfellas, then again in 1995's Casino,
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and of course, three Three different times in The Departed.
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So why does Gimme Shelter lend itself so well to organized crime dramas?
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And which Celtic-loving Boston punk band gets the second best or first,
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depending on who's asking needle drop in The Departed?
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All that and more on this episode of NSYNC.
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I'm the guy who does his job. You must be the other guy.
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First, before we jump into this week's episode, a little bit of housekeeping.
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We are going to be off next week just for one week.
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We're going to skip a week before our season two finale, which will air on the 9th of July.
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And it's just so we can line up possibly with the release of a new thing that
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we are going to definitely want to talk about.
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Yeah, we need to take a deep breath, get our ducks or bears,
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as it were, in a row. And then we'll see you in like a week.
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But again, season two finale airs July 9th.
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And if you thought that Rachel's Boston accent was great, you got to wait till
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you hear her Chicago accent.
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It's not bad for someone who's only been to Boston, what, like,
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I think, I think three times grand total.
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Pretty good. And all four were just like, well, I have to admit,
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after watching The Departed, I was thinking, like, my brain was thinking in
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a Boston accent. Oh, yeah.
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It's very easy to tell who is legitimate and who is not legitimate.
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You would know better than I. You spent many years in Boston.
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You went to college in Boston. I did.
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And grad school. And my wife is from Boston, from Somerville.
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And anytime there is someone who is pretending to be from Boston on a show,
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she will lean over to me and go, they're not really from Boston.
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To the point that I think we could probably share this now.
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Leanne is a background, my wife is a background voice in the Boston Strangler movie.
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She's just like in what's called the loop group where you can kind of hear her
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voice in the background.
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And she got it because she is like actually can have a Boston accent.
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And she recorded the audition for that in your studio.
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Yeah. For those who may have forgotten, Aviv and I are neighbors.
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We live in the same building. We don't just live in each other's houses.
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I think it's been a minute since we mentioned.
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We couldn't live in each other's houses.
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We live in the same collective house, but we are neighbors and that's how we
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met and that's how we came to know.
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Launch your favorite podcast yeah yeah um.
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And we also have some some listener feedback we don't read listener feedback
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on the air very often but this one i think is worth a read.
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Yeah so this email is from our
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only listener uh charles brodsky my
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dad who happy father really happy father's
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day right we're recording this on father's day and i i thought i wanted to read
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his email his feedback back to our perfect episode which we which aired a couple
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of episodes ago if you haven't listened to it please do it's one of my favorite
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episodes that we recorded all season and it.
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Feasters recurring guest eleanor kagan whose birthday it is today.
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So this is this is meant to be
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then meant to be happy birthday eleanor happy birthday eleanor
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happy father's day all right this is the email coming in from my dad who by
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the way is um a really funny writer it's a little known fact about him And I
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feel like he likes to engage with my content just to sort of like remind me
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what a great writer he is and like where I got it from.
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So here it is. Hey, I'm enjoying listening to the perfect podcast.
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I'm especially amused by the collective ignorance of 80s culture that was perhaps
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imperfectly reflected in the movie, which I take umbrage a little bit because
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I do think that if you listen to the whole episode, this is me, by the way, not my dad.
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I do think that we we I think we got our heads around 80s culture like relatively
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well for people who like didn't experience it. But I'm going to leave that aside.
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Here's the rest of dad's email disclaimer. I have not seen the movie since when
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it came out. And I assumed it was pretty superficial.
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And it was just another attempt to monetize aerobics craze that had overtaken
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the country during that decade.
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That said, I have enjoyed ogling ogling ogling Jamie Lee and her costume.
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I mean, who doesn't? Who hasn't?
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From my perspective, this is dad, two cultural phenomena can best describe the
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decade in question, conspicuous consumption, yuppies, and the sexualization of fitness, aerobics.
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Having lived through the decade, none of this is news to me.
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Perfect is, I guess, something of a Rosetta Stone for the second one.
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So it's really funny that none of you guys had ever heard of it.
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I will say that the subtext of government conspiracies to silence or discredit
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the characters is somewhat anachronistic.
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Evil government was more of a cultural phenomenon of the 70s,
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thanks to Vietnam and Watergate.
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Literally dozens of movies drew from this. By the 80s, nobody feared or mistrusted
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government anymore, as they were more concerned about buying that first BMW and getting laid.
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We all loved Ronald Reagan. I think that that's a really interesting take.
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I don't necessarily agree that mistrust of the government completely went away in the 80s.
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There's even a John Travolta movie from 1981 or two called Blowout,
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Brian De Palma movie, which is like really good and circles around like partially
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a government conspiracy to silence someone who has information about like a
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state senator or something.
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Right. Well, government conspiracy stuff has never really gone away.
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It was maybe it was just less overarching and like less mainstream is what I
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guess you're trying to say.
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And we had these like government conspiracy thrillers in the 70s that we didn't really have for a while.
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And I think they're coming back a little bit in a different way.
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They came back really big in the 90s, like with Enemy of the State and stuff like that.
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But yeah, I think the idea that perfect is a Rosetta Stone of both consumerism
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and like horny workout stuff is like spot, absolutely spot on.
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Nail meat head yes yeah yeah i enjoy getting this email so much i i just can't overstate my.
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Mom doesn't write emails about our show she just tells me that i'm wrong.
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Weekly phone calls sometimes i get a text
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um if it's a quick thought if it's a less if it's a more drawn out response
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email but this is the only email i think i've gotten i look forward to more
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from dad because again great writer always has a good take it reminds me of,
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Where I came from and why I got into this line of work. I wonder where this
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all came from. Yeah. Thank you, Dad. Happy Father's Day.
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Happy Father's Day. And happy Father's Day to my father, who doesn't listen. But that's okay.
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If we do an Apocalypse Now episode, he'll listen. So today, we're not talking about Apocalypse Now.
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We are talking about the 2006 film, The Departed.
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And it's tough for me to find a place to start talking about this film.
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Film martin scorsese's 21st by my count narrative feature film and yet his only
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one to win him academy award for best director his only one to take home best
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picture justice for all of my aviator stands out there yeah.
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I feel like the aviator's kind of been a bit forgotten.
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I i think that that's his best movie but i.
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Love the aviator i.
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Saw in theaters i think and i.
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I've seen it since then and thought why did i forget what a great movie this is.
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I referenced it in my wedding vows The Departed is the first remake of a foreign
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language film to ever win Best Picture. One of two ever.
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Scorsese's highest grossing film in the US and his third use of the Rolling
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Stones song Gimme Shelter.
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Also, his third collaboration with his Gen X muse, Leonardo DiCaprio.
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But when I think of The Departed, I think about how absolutely insufferable
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the city of Boston is when there's a movie.
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Oh, my God. I just thought – I think I had a minute in high school where I thought
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it would be cool to go to college in Boston.
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It was. Which it is. Like, college is the – I mean, Boston is the college town,
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and I'm not trying to just deem that.
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But most people that I knew in New York, which is basically just media circles,
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had gone to school in Boston.
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And then the second they graduated, moved south to New York.
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That is the story. And stayed.
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And having been to Boston, it's not fair for me to even talk about it.
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Which I'm doing and I acknowledge it's not fair because I've lived in too many
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big cities like New York, LA, San Francisco.
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And when I go to Boston, I'm just like, this isn't a city. Oh, geez.
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Well, I think that... So there's obviously a huge rivalry between Boston and
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New York that kind of plays out like that Don Draper meme.
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I feel sorry for you. And he's like, I don't think about you at all.
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Like like boston has this huge huge chip on its shoulder about it is.
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It is the chip on the on the shoulder.
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Yeah of the yeah of the nation of the
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nation yeah it has a chip on its shoulder about not being as
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like recognized as some of the other major cities
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on the east coast unlike my home city of philadelphia
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who seems pretty content to have 12 monkeys
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and the mannequin movies and i don't know the birthplace
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of democracy bostonians have always clung to media that takes place there is
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some sort of validation that they matter too and so goodwill hunting was real
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big for boston and to be honest it still very much is good movie great movie
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good will hunting great will hunting,
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hunting good will hunting to hunting season yes and when i moved there in the
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fall of 2004 for For college,
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the movie on every college-aged boy's lips was The Boondock Saints,
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a 1999 movie about two Irish Catholic brothers who become vigilantes and wipe
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out Boston's criminal underworld in the name of God. Yeah.
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It stars Sean Patrick Flannery, Willem Dafoe, and Norman Reedus from The Walking
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Dead. That film is not good.
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And it also has its own sordid Hollywood making of story, but it captured the
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imagination of Bostonian dudes, mostly, for seven years until the fall of 2006,
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when Scorsese blessed us with the truest Bostonist film of all time,
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at least until Ben Affleck's The Town four years later.
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I'm glad you mentioned the town because for a while, I truly confused the town
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with- And the departed. And the departed, yeah.
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Because I thought- How could you do such a thing?
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I was like, because I hadn't seen either of them. And I'm not the target audience. I'm just not.
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Sure. And- And they are also rather similar.
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But I do remember when the town came out, the trailer starred a then rising
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vis-a-vis gossip girl, Blake Lively.
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Whose accent is pretty good.
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I think she's underrated as an actor.
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I was just saying her Boston accent. This is just based on Boston accent accuracy.
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Okay. And as I hit play on The Departed, I thought, is this the one with Blake
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Lively? No, wait, it can't be because it's 2006. It's too early.
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She's still in her traveling pants era.
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Yes. Yeah. I think that both movies are good. I think that The Departed is better.
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So I saw it in the theater.
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Like days before my 21st birthday
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the lights dim warner brothers
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pictures presents and within the first minute we have
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the familiar jangle of gimme shelter over some archival
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footage of busing protests in boston in the 70s
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which is one of the more truly fucked up parts of the city's history and then
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we meet frank costello played by jack nicholson who traipses into a diner shakes
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down the owner and sexually harasses the waitress who i briefly dated in high
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school no you didn't really i did yes her name's amanda oh.
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My god hi amanda.
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Hi amanda so uh i didn't know that she was in the movie and uh reached out to
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her on facebook and i was like um are you in the departed she's like yup um i.
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Do that to a musician friend of mine every now and then who she she is uh she
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does as commercials and every now and then it's like how she pays to also like make music and live.
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And every.
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Now and then but she looks so different in every commercial and one time i think
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i screen capped like the marshall's ad that i saw her in and was like is this
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you grabbing that purse and she like kind of sent me like a winky face.
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Sure yeah yeah this was my first experience
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with like seeing someone i knew interact with jack
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nicholson so it was it was pretty flabbergasting but that's like
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that's a me thing costello then puts a
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young kid named colin sullivan who eventually is played
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by matt damon in his pocket by buying him groceries
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for his family colin lives with his grandparents he's an orphan so costello
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plays artful dodger keeping colin out of the gutter and interestingly enough
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gimme shelter gives way to like a diegetic track in the diner and then returns
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over the montage of Costello grooming Colin to be in his service.
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And this will turn out to be the crux of the movie. Colin grows up to be a Massachusetts
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state trooper and part of a task force that aims to bring down Frank Costello,
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all the while working for Costello's mob front.
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To contrast this, Leonardo DiCaprio's William Costigan, not,
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so we have Costigan and Costello, thanks a lot.
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Costigan, Costigan.
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Costigan, Colin, and Costello. Costigan, whose late father was,
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by all accounts, uncorruptible, is also a state trooper,
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and soon after graduation is handpicked by his captain, Queenan,
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to go undercover and spend some time in jail to infiltrate the Costello crime syndicate.
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It so we've got two moles two rotten organizations two rolling stone needle
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drops within the first 18 minutes of the film and then 18 minutes in a really
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jarring dropkick murphy's cue as billy costigan goes to jail and we finally
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get our title card the departed there's.
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Like a whole movie that plays before we even get the title card.
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So this is so this is like
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a very oh so much so much i want to
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talk about movies shot on film are shot
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in 20 minute increments or projected in 20 minute increments they're
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called reels and so there used
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to be all these two reeler films which were 40 minute films if you've ever seen
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fight club and you know that speech that brad pitt gives about the cigarette
00:17:04.538 --> 00:17:08.658
burns in the corner of the screen to let the projectionist know that they need
00:17:08.658 --> 00:17:14.198
to change over the film happens about every 20 minutes so the cut to title in the departed is
00:17:14.238 --> 00:17:16.758
like the end of the first reel of the film,
00:17:16.818 --> 00:17:21.378
which is like a really interesting choice to play out the whole first,
00:17:21.438 --> 00:17:25.938
it's like the first two sequences without the title card.
00:17:26.238 --> 00:17:27.938
Yeah, film lesson of the day.
00:17:28.018 --> 00:17:28.398
Film history.
00:17:28.458 --> 00:17:29.178
Yeah, film history.
00:17:29.178 --> 00:17:34.138
Yeah. The Departed is based on Hong Kong action film series Infernal Affairs,
00:17:34.698 --> 00:17:39.658
which stars the great Tony Leung and had three installments by the time screenwriter
00:17:39.658 --> 00:17:44.058
William Monaghan, writer of Kingdom of Heaven, adapted the first and a tiny
00:17:44.058 --> 00:17:47.978
bit of the second Infernal Affairs movies into the screenplay for The Departed.
00:17:49.224 --> 00:17:54.904
Do we want to talk a little bit about how both of these needle drops,
00:17:55.144 --> 00:17:59.964
Gimme Shelter and I'm Shipping Up to Boston, are used in this film?
00:18:00.264 --> 00:18:02.624
Because both are really unconventional.
00:18:02.924 --> 00:18:08.864
Yes. I would love to know why are these needle drops unconventional in terms
00:18:08.864 --> 00:18:12.064
of the way that you might normally hear songs?
00:18:12.284 --> 00:18:18.024
Is it that with Gimme Shelter you hear it multiple times? Multiple times.
00:18:18.084 --> 00:18:25.784
Yeah. Yeah, I think so, right? It feels, there's like a weird clumsiness to it.
00:18:25.964 --> 00:18:31.984
So we open with Gimme Shelter over the archival footage and it continues through
00:18:31.984 --> 00:18:36.084
this scene with my high school friend, Amanda.
00:18:36.544 --> 00:18:41.424
And then there's this like kind of jarring crossfade to a different song,
00:18:41.664 --> 00:18:43.324
which feels a little clumsy.
00:18:43.424 --> 00:18:50.824
And then Gimme Shelter comes back in as if the diegesis of the scene was just
00:18:50.824 --> 00:18:55.924
like a a speed bump in the in the whole opening montage.
00:18:55.924 --> 00:18:58.564
Of the film can i can i do
00:18:58.564 --> 00:19:02.364
like a deep read as to why well my main
00:19:02.364 --> 00:19:05.284
takeaway from the departed other than that
00:19:05.284 --> 00:19:07.964
as i said to taylor while
00:19:07.964 --> 00:19:10.684
we were watching and probably you too is that it's just penis has gone
00:19:10.684 --> 00:19:14.284
wild penis penis and my main takeaway
00:19:14.284 --> 00:19:17.204
is that there's like such an overlap in the
00:19:17.204 --> 00:19:20.644
venn diagram between law and crime right it's
00:19:20.644 --> 00:19:23.684
like it's like one's fading out and one's fading in one's
00:19:23.684 --> 00:19:30.024
fading out and it's really hard you have to keep reminding yourself who is in
00:19:30.024 --> 00:19:37.444
whose pocket and who is um working for whom and yeah um it's that that was kind
00:19:37.444 --> 00:19:41.964
of like what i kept thinking Thinking about just the inextricable...
00:19:43.132 --> 00:19:47.672
Connectivity between these two ostensibly
00:19:47.672 --> 00:19:53.112
separate i think that's exactly right and that's kind of why and that that that's
00:19:53.112 --> 00:19:58.272
just that's the overarching theme and so i i i kind of like if something is
00:19:58.272 --> 00:20:02.752
moving in and out like the way you just described with the diegesis of gimme
00:20:02.752 --> 00:20:06.972
shelter that's my take as to why that might be i.
00:20:06.972 --> 00:20:12.732
Think that that reading is completely right and the And like at certain points,
00:20:12.872 --> 00:20:16.432
like, are there any cops that aren't in Costello's pocket?
00:20:16.612 --> 00:20:20.692
Are there any mobsters that aren't also working for the cops?
00:20:20.992 --> 00:20:23.272
It's like a really interesting, that overlap.
00:20:23.592 --> 00:20:30.412
And then I'm Shipping Up to Boston has like a similar thing where it fades up slow.
00:20:30.492 --> 00:20:33.052
So Queenan, played by Martin Sheen,
00:20:33.152 --> 00:20:37.352
and Dignam, who is like the only non-crooked cop in the whole movie.
00:20:37.352 --> 00:20:42.792
Yeah and ironically the biggest the openly the biggest dick yes just like he
00:20:42.792 --> 00:20:46.732
won't he won't answer a question any question asked he just has to insinuate
00:20:46.732 --> 00:20:50.372
like why he's fucked your mother yeah so.
00:20:50.372 --> 00:20:59.352
He they like convince william costigan to go to like give up basically his entire life go to jail,
00:21:00.492 --> 00:21:04.092
and and have his identity essentially erased in
00:21:04.092 --> 00:21:07.612
order to infiltrate the the mob
00:21:07.612 --> 00:21:10.432
and the question is do you want to
00:21:10.432 --> 00:21:13.512
be a cop or do you want to look like you're a cop right and
00:21:13.512 --> 00:21:16.532
i think that that is the central difference between
00:21:16.532 --> 00:21:20.312
costigan and colin sullivan who desperately
00:21:20.312 --> 00:21:23.512
wants to look like a cop and so finally he
00:21:23.512 --> 00:21:26.492
agrees i'm gonna go do it and we have the slow
00:21:26.492 --> 00:21:29.772
fade up of i'm shipping up to Boston and then
00:21:29.772 --> 00:21:32.912
we cut to Costigan in prison doing like
00:21:32.912 --> 00:21:36.312
tricep push-ups but as we cut the
00:21:36.312 --> 00:21:41.632
volume of the music jacks
00:21:41.632 --> 00:21:47.832
up by like 15 decibels right so it so it is both a fade up and this like weird
00:21:47.832 --> 00:21:56.712
hard cut as though this music is coming from somewhere in the prison as well it's super super Yeah.
00:21:56.912 --> 00:22:02.212
I loved the moment just because it just it just bashes you over the head with sound.
00:22:02.512 --> 00:22:11.012
And I haven't been to prison, but I can I one can assume that it's jarring to
00:22:11.012 --> 00:22:17.292
the core, especially if you have been a law abiding, mostly law abiding citizen.
00:22:17.492 --> 00:22:24.012
And then you're just thrown in the deep end the way that Leo's character is right.
00:22:24.012 --> 00:22:28.272
And the cut to title becomes pretty breathtaking in that moment because,
00:22:28.312 --> 00:22:34.632
you know, we can talk a lot about Thelma Schoonmaker's editing.
00:22:34.812 --> 00:22:39.652
It's, like, super propulsive even in moments that, like, don't require it.
00:22:39.732 --> 00:22:46.772
And this is, like, an example of, like, a really propulsive moment where we have this generally...
00:22:49.034 --> 00:22:52.774
Not benign but like a pretty standard conversation between
00:22:52.774 --> 00:22:56.054
three people in an office and then you're like rocketed
00:22:56.054 --> 00:22:59.194
into prison yeah this really hard music
00:22:59.194 --> 00:23:02.374
and then you get your title card but the fade
00:23:02.374 --> 00:23:05.634
up of the music versus the hard cut is like a super interesting
00:23:05.634 --> 00:23:08.594
choice that i like i don't know i wonder
00:23:08.594 --> 00:23:12.574
if they tried it the other way and were like oh this is too jarring or this
00:23:12.574 --> 00:23:16.714
is less jarring in some way which i can imagine yeah it's super super interesting
00:23:16.714 --> 00:23:21.614
And we're going to talk a little bit more about the Dropkick Murphys and their
00:23:21.614 --> 00:23:25.934
contribution to this film and to Boston history a little later.
00:23:26.134 --> 00:23:30.394
But I wanted to give a little bit of a background of like why Boston.
00:23:31.514 --> 00:23:36.394
Scorsese's known for being like a New York guy, so much so that he contributed
00:23:36.394 --> 00:23:38.694
a short film to the collection New York Stories.
00:23:38.694 --> 00:23:43.034
A short film that I was forced to watch in film school and has an incessant
00:23:43.034 --> 00:23:47.494
needle drop of Procol Haram's Whiter Shade of Pale.
00:23:47.734 --> 00:23:49.854
Is that how you pronounce their name? I've never said their name.
00:23:49.894 --> 00:23:53.634
I've never. I've also never said their name that I can recall.
00:23:53.834 --> 00:23:57.054
So frankly, I thought this was a Van Morrison song until today.
00:23:58.394 --> 00:24:04.694
And so why Boston? It's because Scorsese and screenwriter William Monaghan saw
00:24:04.694 --> 00:24:10.134
a real-life connection between this mob boss with ties to the cops in The Departed
00:24:10.134 --> 00:24:14.614
and Infernal Affairs and the infamous Boston gangster, Whitey Bulger.
00:24:14.614 --> 00:24:22.354
I mean, when I'm thinking about, so without having seen Goodfellas or what's the other one?
00:24:22.494 --> 00:24:22.914
Casino.
00:24:23.054 --> 00:24:23.434
Casino.
00:24:23.734 --> 00:24:24.154
Yeah.
00:24:24.734 --> 00:24:34.494
I can only say that I imagine that a crime versus law type of juxtaposition
00:24:34.494 --> 00:24:43.254
is much more cramped and uncozy than it would be in Boston, than it would be in New York.
00:24:43.254 --> 00:24:46.614
Because boston is like a small town and
00:24:46.614 --> 00:24:49.834
everyone knows you and you can't get lost and and
00:24:49.834 --> 00:24:53.654
it's there are so many moments maybe i'm getting a little off topic but there's
00:24:53.654 --> 00:24:59.274
no no this is this there are so many moments where matt damon and leo dicaprio
00:24:59.274 --> 00:25:04.314
like barely just miss each other and they're only really in the same scenes
00:25:04.314 --> 00:25:08.314
after they'd like the denouement and then they like,
00:25:09.478 --> 00:25:14.138
The tension's kind of been released. And then they're actually speaking to one another.
00:25:14.418 --> 00:25:19.858
But beforehand, when they're deep undercover, they're constantly just missing each other.
00:25:20.218 --> 00:25:24.698
And in New York, that would be a lot less likely to happen.
00:25:25.058 --> 00:25:31.678
Yeah, there is an interesting sort of small-town feel of everyone knows everyone's business.
00:25:32.298 --> 00:25:36.278
Costello walks into the diner, recognizes Colin, and is like,
00:25:36.378 --> 00:25:37.458
you live with your grandparents.
00:25:37.758 --> 00:25:42.098
You do this. You do that. Same with when he meets Billy Costigan for the first
00:25:42.098 --> 00:25:44.718
time and he's like, oh, you're Will Costigan's son.
00:25:44.918 --> 00:25:49.578
He would kill me if he saw me talking to you.
00:25:49.678 --> 00:25:53.338
He'd go through seven of my guys and he could do it, which I think is a really
00:25:53.338 --> 00:25:58.838
interesting shared history between these characters that we don't ever see on screen.
00:25:58.838 --> 00:26:01.778
But but william costigan senior was like
00:26:01.778 --> 00:26:04.838
not someone to be trifled with and and
00:26:04.838 --> 00:26:07.498
seemingly like completely uncorruptible which i
00:26:07.498 --> 00:26:10.658
also think is like the idea of the father figure
00:26:10.658 --> 00:26:16.338
even though both of their fathers are dead and frank costello is a surrogate
00:26:16.338 --> 00:26:20.458
father for both characters the fact that colin sullivan doesn't have a father
00:26:20.458 --> 00:26:25.538
and is or didn't have a father as a kid and was easily corruptible because of
00:26:25.538 --> 00:26:28.338
it versus Billy Costigan,
00:26:28.438 --> 00:26:31.158
who his father instilled in him these...
00:26:32.049 --> 00:26:35.869
Morals or whatever like frank costello whitey
00:26:35.869 --> 00:26:39.149
bulger was from south boston specifically the southie
00:26:39.149 --> 00:26:42.389
projects this is from collider eventually he became
00:26:42.389 --> 00:26:45.369
the winter hill gang leader in boston and found
00:26:45.369 --> 00:26:48.629
his way on the fbi most wanted list ironically his brother
00:26:48.629 --> 00:26:52.109
william bulger would go in the opposite direction becoming part
00:26:52.109 --> 00:26:54.689
of the massachusetts state senate president of the
00:26:54.689 --> 00:26:59.529
the university of massachusetts and an attorney so their
00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:02.689
whitey and billy bulger had
00:27:02.689 --> 00:27:06.029
this sort of connection and billy
00:27:06.029 --> 00:27:08.829
bulger was like i don't want to say accused but like there
00:27:08.829 --> 00:27:12.329
were implications that he was like pulling strings for whitey whether
00:27:12.329 --> 00:27:16.789
or not those are substantiated i don't know um whitey's life
00:27:16.789 --> 00:27:20.429
of crime began in his teenage years with street gangs he was arrested multiple
00:27:20.429 --> 00:27:25.249
times he was in the air force and the only reason i'm talking about his like
00:27:25.249 --> 00:27:33.169
past past is because when he was uh he served nine years um of.
00:27:33.169 --> 00:27:34.009
A 20-year sentence.
00:27:34.009 --> 00:27:39.949
Of a 20-year sentence for bank robbery and he served it at alcatraz and while
00:27:39.949 --> 00:27:44.709
serving the sentence he was an unwitting participant in the mk ultra project
00:27:44.709 --> 00:27:49.849
which is the same experimentation that they did on the unabomber what.
00:27:49.849 --> 00:27:50.769
Was that project.
00:27:50.769 --> 00:27:54.229
So so mk ultra was a project by the cia to
00:27:54.229 --> 00:27:56.889
this is like i'm i'm gonna sound like an
00:27:56.889 --> 00:28:02.929
absolute crazy person this is all completely real the cia was trying to work
00:28:02.929 --> 00:28:09.589
on like mind control experiments with psychotropic drugs and so they gave students
00:28:09.589 --> 00:28:14.649
like psychology students and inmates and people who are infirmed they like,
00:28:15.435 --> 00:28:18.195
dose them with lsd and things like
00:28:18.195 --> 00:28:22.855
that to see like what kind of drug cocktail would make them mind controllable
00:28:22.855 --> 00:28:30.095
and so whitey bulger was was a victim of that and ted kaczynski so like that
00:28:30.095 --> 00:28:33.515
makes a lot more the unabomber makes a lot more sense when you realize that
00:28:33.515 --> 00:28:36.615
he was experimented on by the cia well.
00:28:36.615 --> 00:28:39.955
Well well if it isn't the consequences of our actions.
00:28:39.955 --> 00:28:44.255
Yeah okay i'm not I'm not going to say that the Unabomber did nothing wrong.
00:28:44.455 --> 00:28:48.315
Right, right. But they are a contributing factor or two.
00:28:48.675 --> 00:28:50.755
I also wouldn't trust the government.
00:28:51.715 --> 00:28:54.335
Well, yeah. Or maybe have a bone to pick.
00:28:54.655 --> 00:28:55.055
Yeah.
00:29:01.715 --> 00:29:06.775
Whitey Bulger was also directly represented on screen by Johnny Depp in Black
00:29:06.775 --> 00:29:09.415
Mass, which is an absolutely horrible movie.
00:29:09.415 --> 00:29:15.595
But the way that Bolger and Costello are connected through The Departed,
00:29:15.755 --> 00:29:20.455
not just because of their associations with the Boston crime underworld,
00:29:20.595 --> 00:29:25.515
was that they were both secretly cooperating with the FBI and selling out their associates.
00:29:26.375 --> 00:29:31.915
Eventually, Bolger went on the run in 1994, and there was a massive manhunt.
00:29:31.915 --> 00:29:38.435
And the first confirmed sighting of him was in London in 2002 because of a different movie.
00:29:38.955 --> 00:29:40.375
Because of a different movie.
00:29:40.635 --> 00:29:44.875
Because of a different movie. So a businessman in London was watching the movie Hannibal.
00:29:45.315 --> 00:29:49.155
And Hannibal deals with Clary Starling in the FBI.
00:29:49.275 --> 00:29:54.875
And so there is like a most wanted list in the background of this FBI,
00:29:55.055 --> 00:30:01.815
like, you know, plus Hannibal Lecter. And this businessman recognized Whitey Bulger from the movie.
00:30:03.544 --> 00:30:08.124
This led a worldwide manhunt. FBI agents were sent to Uruguay.
00:30:08.684 --> 00:30:13.644
Some agents were sent to stake out the 60th anniversary of celebrations of the
00:30:13.644 --> 00:30:18.244
Battle of Normandy because Bulger was an enthusiastic fan of military history.
00:30:18.584 --> 00:30:23.984
And then a report from an off-duty Boston police officer was confirmed that.
00:30:23.984 --> 00:30:28.144
They saw Whitey Bulger after a San Diego screening of The Departed.
00:30:28.144 --> 00:30:31.004
It so this led to a search
00:30:31.004 --> 00:30:34.184
in southern california for a few weeks in 2006 but
00:30:34.184 --> 00:30:37.324
whitey was in southern california and
00:30:37.324 --> 00:30:40.084
in 2011 authorities received a tip from
00:30:40.084 --> 00:30:42.744
a woman in iceland that bulger was living in an
00:30:42.744 --> 00:30:45.844
apartment near the beach in santa monica
00:30:45.844 --> 00:30:49.304
and the boston globe identified this tipster as anna
00:30:49.304 --> 00:30:52.164
bjorn's daughter who was a former model and
00:30:52.164 --> 00:30:55.264
actress and miss iceland 1974 and she
00:30:55.264 --> 00:30:58.304
just lived in whitey's neighborhood a day later
00:30:58.304 --> 00:31:01.164
they used a ruse agents and other
00:31:01.164 --> 00:31:03.844
task force members to lure whitey out of
00:31:03.844 --> 00:31:07.004
his apartment and then they arrested him he was
00:31:07.004 --> 00:31:10.164
incarcerated he was he was uh uh found guilty
00:31:10.164 --> 00:31:13.924
of a bunch of different murders and crimes and um
00:31:13.924 --> 00:31:17.144
was incarcerated and then in 2018 on
00:31:17.144 --> 00:31:20.444
october 30th 89 years old he was
00:31:20.444 --> 00:31:23.604
found dead in his cell he was in a wheelchair and
00:31:23.604 --> 00:31:27.044
had been beaten to death by multiple inmates armed
00:31:27.044 --> 00:31:30.724
with a sock wrapped padlock and shiv
00:31:30.724 --> 00:31:33.584
and his eyes had nearly been gouged out and
00:31:33.584 --> 00:31:36.944
his tongue was almost cut off oh my they don't
00:31:36.944 --> 00:31:41.524
like no justice yeah right so like clearly you don't cut off someone's tongue
00:31:41.524 --> 00:31:48.144
unless they're a rat a rat but a law enforcement official described bulger as
00:31:48.144 --> 00:31:54.324
unrecognizable so like i'll put my tinfoil hat back on was it whitey See?
00:31:55.691 --> 00:31:56.891
Oh, my gosh.
00:31:57.251 --> 00:32:04.371
Yeah, so this is the character that the Frank Costello character is based on.
00:32:04.571 --> 00:32:13.571
And apparently, Whitey was disgusted by Nicholson's portrayal of Frank Costello
00:32:13.571 --> 00:32:17.291
in The Departed, specifically because Costello was a rat.
00:32:17.411 --> 00:32:21.331
And being a rat was the worst thing that could ever happen.
00:32:21.551 --> 00:32:25.031
But I have to stress, Bulger was a rat. Right.
00:32:25.211 --> 00:32:30.571
Well, you know how with certain extreme personalities,
00:32:31.251 --> 00:32:39.551
like narcissists and sociopaths, being called out in any way tends to elicit
00:32:39.551 --> 00:32:41.471
strong, angry reactions?
00:32:42.031 --> 00:32:44.451
Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my actions.
00:32:44.511 --> 00:32:46.011
A little bit of that going on.
00:32:46.011 --> 00:32:49.391
And he also did have this like strong narcissistic
00:32:49.391 --> 00:32:52.551
personality in that he was very charismatic and
00:32:52.551 --> 00:32:55.711
he actually had to he got
00:32:55.711 --> 00:33:00.611
like a prison psychologist fired because he like made the prison psychologist
00:33:00.611 --> 00:33:06.291
feel really bad for him and allowed Whitey to like use a cell phone because
00:33:06.291 --> 00:33:13.911
he felt like he was this victim of the MKUltra experiments and other circumstances of his upbringing.
00:33:13.911 --> 00:33:19.851
And so the prison officials found out that Whitey was essentially manipulating
00:33:19.851 --> 00:33:22.371
this therapist and fired the therapist.
00:33:22.751 --> 00:33:23.751
My God.
00:33:24.291 --> 00:33:25.011
Incredible.
00:33:25.211 --> 00:33:27.711
I mean, to be fair, that's a bad therapist.
00:33:28.051 --> 00:33:32.771
That is absolutely a bad therapist. But it's very interesting that,
00:33:32.831 --> 00:33:39.671
like, as we talk about, like, the Venn diagram of corrupt cops versus cops in the crime world,
00:33:39.811 --> 00:33:44.351
there's also this really interesting Venn diagram of, like, the plot of Infernal Affairs,
00:33:44.591 --> 00:33:49.371
which is basically the plot of The Departed that kind of fits perfectly over
00:33:49.371 --> 00:33:51.451
this Whitey Bulger story.
00:33:52.532 --> 00:33:58.072
Narrative that is like in boston's dna everybody's got a cousin's got a cousin's
00:33:58.072 --> 00:34:00.572
got a cousin who worked for whitey back in the day.
00:34:00.572 --> 00:34:03.472
Oh my god that is so boston i don't have to even
00:34:03.472 --> 00:34:06.372
be from there to just know i mean i've heard enough because
00:34:06.372 --> 00:34:09.152
um as yes you know taylor my
00:34:09.152 --> 00:34:11.972
husband he lived there for about 15 or so
00:34:11.972 --> 00:34:15.132
years um long enough to get to
00:34:15.132 --> 00:34:17.932
the a perfect boston accent although he
00:34:17.932 --> 00:34:20.932
could probably just he's he's especially good at accents and
00:34:20.932 --> 00:34:24.252
mimicking but but he's
00:34:24.252 --> 00:34:27.252
so when we talk about his time
00:34:27.252 --> 00:34:31.072
in boston because we've been back since now
00:34:31.072 --> 00:34:33.952
we're in la and we having been back since
00:34:33.952 --> 00:34:37.012
he's i think he has that feeling of
00:34:37.012 --> 00:34:40.692
like when you go back home it's always smaller than
00:34:40.692 --> 00:34:46.052
yeah then you remember it being i think you feel more starbucks's yeah i think
00:34:46.052 --> 00:34:51.432
he feels that in a pretty visceral way when it when it comes to boston but uh
00:34:51.432 --> 00:34:56.512
but in his from his perspective coming to boston from north carolina boston
00:34:56.512 --> 00:34:59.692
seemed like a really big city big city yeah totally good i.
00:34:59.692 --> 00:35:05.112
Also think that the the the dna of boston has changed significantly since the
00:35:05.112 --> 00:35:11.052
late 90s early 2000s and the the world of this movie versus the world of boston
00:35:11.052 --> 00:35:14.172
now because boston is very tech money heavy now.
00:35:14.172 --> 00:35:15.652
Right so right a lot.
00:35:15.652 --> 00:35:19.472
Of these like really shady areas they don't exist anymore.
00:35:19.472 --> 00:35:22.452
Right they've they've all been um okay so this
00:35:22.452 --> 00:35:25.352
is this is a silly please don't judge me for this
00:35:25.352 --> 00:35:30.112
reference but i think i was watching married at first sight oh yeah boston um
00:35:30.112 --> 00:35:34.972
i really enjoy married at first sight the episodes are way too long but this
00:35:34.972 --> 00:35:39.772
is where this is where love is blind came from listeners it's the same production
00:35:39.772 --> 00:35:44.232
company uh married at first sight had a boston season and um,
00:35:45.286 --> 00:35:49.026
I think one of the contestants or one of the recently married contestants was
00:35:49.026 --> 00:35:52.706
talking about, like, this is where my family's house is.
00:35:52.886 --> 00:35:56.846
And then, you know, I don't think he said it, but I think Taylor might have
00:35:56.846 --> 00:36:00.046
said something like, oh, wow, like this, that neighborhood looks completely
00:36:00.046 --> 00:36:02.326
different than I remember it being.
00:36:02.326 --> 00:36:05.126
This is also like very much part of
00:36:05.126 --> 00:36:08.646
the plot of the movie that during the the first instance
00:36:08.646 --> 00:36:15.666
of gimme shelter costello is talking in voiceover about how the city of boston
00:36:15.666 --> 00:36:20.806
has changed and how america has changed where like 20 years ago or however however
00:36:20.806 --> 00:36:25.306
many years ago he said you know an irish person couldn't get a job and now we're
00:36:25.306 --> 00:36:27.506
in the white house right yeah.
00:36:27.506 --> 00:36:30.726
Wait can i really quickly tell you my favorite line in the whole movie.
00:36:30.726 --> 00:36:33.506
She fell funny yeah.
00:36:33.506 --> 00:36:35.566
That that's a good one the bodega
00:36:35.566 --> 00:36:41.346
owner who's like i don't understand you americans you all hate each other.
00:36:42.966 --> 00:36:43.526
I'm.
00:36:43.526 --> 00:36:44.626
Paraphrasing of course but.
00:36:44.626 --> 00:36:45.266
I was like.
00:36:45.266 --> 00:36:48.026
Well that one hit and that is true.
00:36:48.026 --> 00:36:53.726
I'm this movie is like way funnier than you would expect yeah upon getting like
00:36:53.726 --> 00:36:57.726
a you know a scorsese gangster movie i also go back and forth between scorsese
00:36:57.726 --> 00:37:02.026
and scorsese the cranberry juice bit is very funny yeah.
00:37:02.026 --> 00:37:04.446
Yeah what you on your period.
00:37:04.446 --> 00:37:07.506
The you're a cop thing is is a really fun
00:37:07.506 --> 00:37:12.346
laugh line that then gets paid off because i think both of them are actually
00:37:12.346 --> 00:37:16.666
cops but before we dive head first into gimme shelter i know that we're like
00:37:16.666 --> 00:37:21.346
boston boston boston right now but i want to talk about shipping up to boston
00:37:21.346 --> 00:37:25.986
by the dropkick murphys which is now the kind of the unofficial anthem of the city.
00:37:38.359 --> 00:37:45.319
With lyrics by Woody Guthrie? So it turns out that Ken Casey,
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:50.159
the singer and lyricist of, mostly lyricist of Dropkick Murphys,
00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:52.199
was looking through Woody Guthrie archives.
00:37:52.299 --> 00:37:56.859
And he had done that with a previous Dropkick song, Gonna Be a Blackout Tonight,
00:37:56.999 --> 00:37:59.479
from the 2003 album Blackout.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:02.799
But this is like credited to Woody Guthrie.
00:38:03.399 --> 00:38:07.059
Woody Guthrie shows up in the unlikeliest of places.
00:38:07.059 --> 00:38:07.719
So weird.
00:38:08.359 --> 00:38:09.659
A lot of his songs still resonate.
00:38:10.299 --> 00:38:16.579
Yeah. And this is like, it was just a poem about a sailor who lost a leg climbing up the top sail.
00:38:16.759 --> 00:38:18.879
I mean, there aren't a ton of lyrics in this song.
00:38:19.319 --> 00:38:23.759
But it was released on a Hellcat Records compilation in 2004.
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:29.339
And then re-recorded for the Murphy's 2005 record, The Warrior's Code,
00:38:29.619 --> 00:38:32.139
which is the version that's in the film.
00:38:32.219 --> 00:38:35.439
And another music video was released as a tie-in for the film.
00:38:35.439 --> 00:38:39.019
And it's by far the Murphy's most popular song to date.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:44.319
And I, once again, lived in Boston for eight years, saw the Dropkick Murphys
00:38:44.319 --> 00:38:46.359
seven times in six days once.
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.319
Because I worked at the House of Blues.
00:38:49.699 --> 00:38:51.399
Okay, yep, there you go.
00:38:51.619 --> 00:38:57.639
Every St. Patrick's week, they do seven shows in six days.
00:38:57.659 --> 00:38:59.879
Two on the actual St. Patrick's Day.
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:04.119
And seeing them is weird.
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:08.139
Why this was in 2009,
00:39:09.819 --> 00:39:16.699
so it wasn't too far after the departed and they are a union,
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:25.719
working class good bunch of dudes I like met there I met a few of them working
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:33.159
with them they're like they're good dudes and yet there were cops from New York work.
00:39:34.238 --> 00:39:39.318
People like nypd officers who took the bus or drove up to boston to see the
00:39:39.318 --> 00:39:43.538
drop kicks on st patrick's day throwing their badges onto the.
00:39:43.538 --> 00:39:46.358
Stage i love that that must have been fun to what but
00:39:46.358 --> 00:39:50.498
i have not seen drop kick murphy's live
00:39:50.498 --> 00:39:53.278
in that way yeah however i saw them
00:39:53.278 --> 00:39:56.038
in a more intimate uh in a
00:39:56.038 --> 00:39:59.038
more intimate way when in new york the
00:39:59.038 --> 00:40:02.558
sort of the inversion of the inversion version of what you saw but when
00:40:02.558 --> 00:40:07.538
i briefly worked at taste magazine in 2016
00:40:07.538 --> 00:40:10.598
2017 we were starting
00:40:10.598 --> 00:40:14.418
to play around with live facebook performances
00:40:14.418 --> 00:40:17.318
like like live stream facebook performances that
00:40:17.318 --> 00:40:25.218
we would then move on over to youtube and it might still be there um uh where
00:40:25.218 --> 00:40:28.418
a band will play a song someone would interview them and then they play another
00:40:28.418 --> 00:40:34.038
song but one of the first bands that we had in the studio was dropkick murphy's
00:40:34.038 --> 00:40:36.878
or at least a few of them and i bet there's.
00:40:36.878 --> 00:40:37.758
There's like seven.
00:40:37.758 --> 00:40:40.618
Yeah there are a lot of members and i met the main
00:40:40.618 --> 00:40:43.798
one whose name escaped me yeah yeah yeah
00:40:43.798 --> 00:40:46.558
and he i remember he sat in my office with me and we
00:40:46.558 --> 00:40:49.498
just talked for a while and it was exactly as you describe it
00:40:49.498 --> 00:40:52.518
was just very chill and good ass dudes yeah just
00:40:52.518 --> 00:40:57.298
a good ass dude and i was probably more of a dropkick like like an active dropkick
00:40:57.298 --> 00:41:00.858
murphy's fan because i was such a punk oh i was just a little mall punk in high
00:41:00.858 --> 00:41:06.918
school and uh although they kind of came second to flogging molly for me i was
00:41:06.918 --> 00:41:09.978
more i was more of a flogging molly girl and.
00:41:09.978 --> 00:41:12.498
But living in boston for so long i uh,
00:41:13.808 --> 00:41:20.488
I had mentioned a few episodes ago that Michelle Nolan DeRosa was my neighbor.
00:41:20.588 --> 00:41:27.068
Her husband, Jeff DeRosa, is in the Dropkick Murphys and is their banjo player.
00:41:27.588 --> 00:41:35.148
But they also had, at least at the time, this road manager whose name was Throat.
00:41:35.148 --> 00:41:43.348
And throat got the name because he had like no larynx and would talk like a
00:41:43.348 --> 00:41:45.108
yeah like that we're just gonna talk.
00:41:45.108 --> 00:41:47.408
We're just gonna name you what you don't.
00:41:47.408 --> 00:41:50.188
Yeah yeah which is also like a very boston things
00:41:50.188 --> 00:41:54.248
like oh you talk weird your name's throat yeah yeah i credit
00:41:54.248 --> 00:41:58.888
scorsese and the music supervisor on basically
00:41:58.888 --> 00:42:01.828
all of his movies who there's like a huge music
00:42:01.828 --> 00:42:05.488
department on the departed but he does find these
00:42:05.488 --> 00:42:08.648
really interesting like like lesser
00:42:08.648 --> 00:42:11.588
known tracks and he gets this bad
00:42:11.588 --> 00:42:14.608
rep for for being like oh
00:42:14.608 --> 00:42:18.388
only gangster movies and only rolling stones and that's not really the case
00:42:18.388 --> 00:42:22.908
specifically like we talked a little bit about this before we started recording
00:42:22.908 --> 00:42:28.768
there's like a me first in the gimme gimme's beach boys cover in the wolf of
00:42:28.768 --> 00:42:32.328
wall street like what who is looking Looking for these songs,
00:42:32.548 --> 00:42:36.128
there isn't a specific music supervisor listed for The Departed.
00:42:36.248 --> 00:42:42.568
And I have a feeling that Scorsese has like a really close eye on the music that's in his movies.
00:42:42.728 --> 00:42:47.948
But like it's super interesting that he finds these absolutely weirdo deep cuts,
00:42:48.208 --> 00:42:56.748
including Bad Fingers' Baby Blue, like nine years before it became the final song in Breaking Bad.
00:42:57.948 --> 00:43:02.568
Well, I didn't realize that at all. but i i remember being yeah like going through
00:43:02.568 --> 00:43:05.148
the movie there were a few obvious picks.
00:43:05.148 --> 00:43:06.468
Yeah yeah.
00:43:06.468 --> 00:43:10.388
Um there's some almond brothers right.
00:43:10.388 --> 00:43:15.268
Yeah and there's uh there's john lennon there's uh passy klein but.
00:43:15.268 --> 00:43:17.168
Then there's like a naz song.
00:43:17.168 --> 00:43:24.028
Yeah yeah and i wonder i wonder if that is to create a dichotomy between like
00:43:24.028 --> 00:43:27.228
the old world and the new world maybe we could talk a little bit more about
00:43:27.228 --> 00:43:31.208
that after we finally get into Gimme Shelter.
00:43:49.503 --> 00:43:52.183
Yeah, well, so it just so happens that while we were texting,
00:43:52.303 --> 00:43:57.063
I was listening to some background, like a behind the song about Gimme Shelter.
00:43:57.223 --> 00:44:04.543
And and it did. So I was under the impression at first that this was just like a protest war song.
00:44:04.743 --> 00:44:09.783
But but it's actually way more layered than that.
00:44:09.903 --> 00:44:15.043
So it this Gimme Shelter, at least the riff started with and the name started
00:44:15.043 --> 00:44:18.483
where when Keith Richards, I believe, was like waiting in an airport.
00:44:18.483 --> 00:44:27.483
And thinking about his girlfriend who was starring in a movie alongside Mick Jagger, his bandmate,
00:44:27.583 --> 00:44:33.863
and feeling, I think, kind of anxious that there's going to be some physical,
00:44:34.023 --> 00:44:37.963
like a love scene between Mick and his girlfriend.
00:44:38.503 --> 00:44:42.023
Famously like sex symbol Mick Jagger.
00:44:42.083 --> 00:44:48.303
Right. And in fact, there was a love scene and it was a very sexual movie,
00:44:49.123 --> 00:44:52.063
apparently and well some people allege that
00:44:52.063 --> 00:44:54.943
it wasn't that the love scene wasn't faked or
00:44:54.943 --> 00:44:58.503
or simulated it was real although the girlfriend maintained that
00:44:58.503 --> 00:45:01.463
it was simulated anyhow so this
00:45:01.463 --> 00:45:04.363
is we're kind of like laying the groundwork for for where
00:45:04.363 --> 00:45:08.603
keith richard's mind is and then he's he's watching and then there's this huge
00:45:08.603 --> 00:45:11.843
he's looking out the window at this airport and there's just like this huge
00:45:11.843 --> 00:45:17.503
uh downpour people start running and looking like literally for shelter that's
00:45:17.503 --> 00:45:23.863
kind of the beginning of like the riff like downpour of rain yeah so weather is happening and,
00:45:24.743 --> 00:45:30.823
this is all before Mick comes in and really like fills out the lyrics so lyrically
00:45:30.823 --> 00:45:32.923
Mick is thinking about it's like,
00:45:33.947 --> 00:45:40.647
It's actually not a totally dissimilar atmosphere in terms of global events
00:45:40.647 --> 00:45:48.727
than we're currently living in, which is a lot of unprecedented things are happening.
00:45:49.027 --> 00:45:55.587
And this is taking place in 68, where a lot of end of innocence type events
00:45:55.587 --> 00:45:57.387
happen. Martin Luther King is killed.
00:45:57.647 --> 00:46:00.767
Bobby Kennedy is also killed in 68, I think.
00:46:00.847 --> 00:46:06.807
Right. Bobby Kennedy is assassinated. We're entering, well, we've been in the
00:46:06.807 --> 00:46:11.567
war in Vietnam, but the war in Vietnam is really picking up. It's not a popular war.
00:46:12.767 --> 00:46:21.147
There's racial unrest. It's just a very, very historically bad time in the world at large, really.
00:46:21.247 --> 00:46:26.727
It feels very concentrated probably in the Western hemisphere in the US and the UK.
00:46:26.907 --> 00:46:32.467
That feeling of kind of being on the precipice of total chaos and anarchy is
00:46:32.467 --> 00:46:36.387
really like is the fuel to give me shelter.
00:46:36.727 --> 00:46:41.587
And that has like a super interesting, there is this like super interesting,
00:46:42.267 --> 00:46:44.787
ominous feeling to the riff.
00:46:45.107 --> 00:46:49.427
Yeah, especially at the beginning. It feels like chills are starting to percolate
00:46:49.427 --> 00:46:52.507
like on your arms and down your spine.
00:46:52.627 --> 00:47:00.507
And the way that it begins to sort of creep in, it's like you want to look over your shoulder.
00:47:00.507 --> 00:47:03.987
Yeah and it's got like a it's it's
00:47:03.987 --> 00:47:07.947
a it's like an interesting kind of repetitive down the
00:47:07.947 --> 00:47:11.247
scale sort of uh rhythm guitar and then
00:47:11.247 --> 00:47:17.387
like keith richards just kind of noodling in a way that if it were any other
00:47:17.387 --> 00:47:21.847
guitarist than keith richards it would be like kind of obnoxious but he's just
00:47:21.847 --> 00:47:29.927
got this perfect vibe of yes the storm is coming right right literally and figuratively and,
00:47:31.196 --> 00:47:35.376
I don't think anyone else could make a maybe George Harrison,
00:47:35.496 --> 00:47:41.176
right, could like make something so literal into music. Right.
00:47:41.376 --> 00:47:46.936
So at the last minute, they bring in gospel singer Mary Clayton.
00:47:47.556 --> 00:47:51.476
And it's it's like the last point.
00:47:51.636 --> 00:47:57.056
The the producer of the song felt that that that Gimme Shelter would really
00:47:57.056 --> 00:47:59.396
benefit from a female vocalist.
00:47:59.396 --> 00:48:04.516
So they called up Clayton in the middle of the night, I think,
00:48:04.536 --> 00:48:07.616
and she comes into the- She's heavily pregnant.
00:48:07.696 --> 00:48:12.736
And she comes into the studio, still in her hair curlers, and she just knocks it out.
00:48:27.976 --> 00:48:34.496
It's just a show. in two ish takes there's famously in gimme shelter a moment
00:48:34.496 --> 00:48:39.716
where her voice cracks they They decide to keep that in, and I think history
00:48:39.716 --> 00:48:41.636
is grateful that they did.
00:48:41.816 --> 00:48:50.096
I mean, something so accidental is so symbolic for the song and what it's talking about.
00:48:50.296 --> 00:48:55.516
Her voice just comes apart for a minute, and it adds a sense of urgency because
00:48:55.516 --> 00:48:59.936
literally it was very urgent getting the song finished.
00:49:00.316 --> 00:49:05.916
Yeah, and you can even hear when her voice cracks in the deep background, Jagger going, yeah!
00:49:06.236 --> 00:49:08.716
Yes, I love that moment.
00:49:08.896 --> 00:49:09.616
Makes it feel alive.
00:49:10.056 --> 00:49:11.356
Yeah, however,
00:49:14.116 --> 00:49:17.116
recent history has been kinder to Mary Clayton,
00:49:18.025 --> 00:49:22.425
But history, history was much less kind to Clayton.
00:49:23.025 --> 00:49:26.585
First of all, they spelled her name wrong in the credits.
00:49:26.765 --> 00:49:32.205
Her name is spelled Mary like Merry Christmas, and they spelled it Mary like the usual way.
00:49:32.345 --> 00:49:36.365
In their defense, they also spell the name Gimme Shelter wrong on the record.
00:49:36.625 --> 00:49:41.105
This is from The Guardian. And the day after the session with the Stones,
00:49:41.705 --> 00:49:44.805
Clayton, who was pregnant, suffered a miscarriage.
00:49:44.805 --> 00:49:48.225
And she attributes it to the strain that she put on her body,
00:49:48.285 --> 00:49:52.365
pushing the heavy studio doors and reaching to hit those vocal peaks.
00:49:52.685 --> 00:49:58.785
She told The Guardian, we lost a little girl. It took me years and years and years to get over that.
00:49:58.925 --> 00:50:02.805
You had all the success with Gimme Shelter and you had the heartbreak with this song.
00:50:03.565 --> 00:50:08.545
And although she recorded her own version of the song for her 1970 studio album
00:50:08.545 --> 00:50:10.305
itself entitled Gimme Shelter,
00:50:10.305 --> 00:50:14.405
her it took her a long time to listen to the stone song because it was so closely
00:50:14.405 --> 00:50:18.605
associated with losing her child she said it left the dark taste in my mouth
00:50:18.605 --> 00:50:20.785
it was a rough rough time can you even imagine.
00:50:20.785 --> 00:50:24.705
I can't imagine and it also like i
00:50:24.705 --> 00:50:30.765
don't want to be the the guy that's like well this incredible art was created
00:50:30.765 --> 00:50:36.125
in this moment of pain but i think the reverse is true that you You could hear
00:50:36.125 --> 00:50:44.145
this absolute agony in her voice singing this song for whatever it is,
00:50:44.185 --> 00:50:46.545
right? She was a huge anti-racist advocate.
00:50:46.905 --> 00:50:51.045
She was heavily pregnant. It was the middle of the night. There's like a lot
00:50:51.045 --> 00:50:54.485
of things going on in the country and in her life. She's obviously a woman of color.
00:50:54.625 --> 00:50:59.305
And being asked to sing on a Rolling Stones song. I mean, you want to get that
00:50:59.305 --> 00:51:01.945
right. You're going to get up in the middle of the night.
00:51:01.945 --> 00:51:08.365
And so there is a level of pain in her voice that is like extremely palpable that,
00:51:08.465 --> 00:51:13.925
you know, doesn't equal isn't isn't a good replacement for a child that or the
00:51:13.925 --> 00:51:17.285
death of a child doesn't excuse it. But like, you definitely can hear it.
00:51:17.345 --> 00:51:23.385
Yeah. Well, anyhow, during the 70s, Clayton did continue to amass credits.
00:51:23.445 --> 00:51:29.225
If anyone has seen 20 Feet from Stardom, the documentary that came out,
00:51:29.245 --> 00:51:31.405
I want to say like a decade ago. right yeah.
00:51:31.405 --> 00:51:32.545
Like 2013 ish.
00:51:32.545 --> 00:51:36.945
Yeah um mary clayton features in 20 feet from stardom which is about backup
00:51:36.945 --> 00:51:45.385
singers and and uh she sang uh backup on ringo stars oh my my carol king's smack
00:51:45.385 --> 00:51:50.725
water jack and joe cocker's feeling all right and sweet home alabama and.
00:51:50.725 --> 00:51:51.665
Sweet home alabama.
00:51:51.665 --> 00:51:56.445
And she talks about her time with the stones in 20 feet from stardom so mary
00:51:56.445 --> 00:51:58.845
clayton everyone gossip yeah highly highly.
00:51:58.845 --> 00:52:01.925
Recommend that that documentary i think.
00:52:01.925 --> 00:52:02.605
It also won.
00:52:02.605 --> 00:52:04.245
Best documentary feature.
00:52:04.245 --> 00:52:08.565
At the the oscars yeah i think you're right that was a that was a good one yeah.
00:52:08.565 --> 00:52:13.665
So scorsese and the stones go way back,
00:52:15.490 --> 00:52:16.510
A long way back.
00:52:16.790 --> 00:52:22.710
Yeah. So before The Departed, which was kind of seen as a return to form for Scorsese. It's funny.
00:52:22.790 --> 00:52:29.350
This is me showing my age because I think The Aviator might have been my first Scorsese.
00:52:29.550 --> 00:52:32.010
I'd heard of Goodfellas. I just never saw it.
00:52:32.170 --> 00:52:37.570
I probably saw Goodfellas on TV. I definitely saw Casino on TV in the 90s. Yeah.
00:52:37.810 --> 00:52:40.410
And I didn't care for it then. I don't care for it now.
00:52:40.410 --> 00:52:44.150
Now uh i'm i
00:52:44.150 --> 00:52:48.070
only know joe pesci as the
00:52:48.070 --> 00:52:51.330
uh the the wet the wet bandit yeah marv yeah
00:52:51.330 --> 00:52:59.790
marv yes but scorsese later at two years after the departed he does uh he directs
00:52:59.790 --> 00:53:04.930
a 2008 concert film shine a light which follows the rolling stones history and
00:53:04.930 --> 00:53:09.290
influence and then their their comeback tour in 2008 does.
00:53:09.290 --> 00:53:10.510
Not feature gimme shelter.
00:53:10.510 --> 00:53:17.410
Yeah well wouldn't that be too on the nose yeah right yeah um mick jagger and
00:53:17.410 --> 00:53:21.790
square stacy were also producers and creative collaborators on the short-lived
00:53:21.790 --> 00:53:26.850
hbo series vinyl which i think we'd all be more than happy to forget about forever i.
00:53:26.850 --> 00:53:28.350
Love bobby cannavale i.
00:53:28.350 --> 00:53:32.750
Mean who doesn't we love bobby cannavale that was a that was a bad show,
00:53:34.630 --> 00:53:41.330
although i did i did interviewed um gino temple for that show and that was i
00:53:41.330 --> 00:53:44.870
like her very much and i'm gino temple i think she deserves all the success
00:53:44.870 --> 00:53:50.730
and i'm happy i'm happy that she has it i think more than um any time in her
00:53:50.730 --> 00:53:53.490
long career because of she's also in.
00:53:53.490 --> 00:53:55.090
Black mass the whitey bulger movie.
00:53:55.090 --> 00:53:57.910
Is she okay um but she's i
00:53:57.910 --> 00:54:00.730
know a big deal in well she was in the last season of
00:54:00.730 --> 00:54:04.070
fargo which i have yet to watch i hear it's very good i'm slowly working my
00:54:04.070 --> 00:54:10.330
way through fargo and and what she's also in um so classic thank you that's
00:54:10.330 --> 00:54:13.750
what ted lasso which i have not gotten into because i don't care about soccer
00:54:13.750 --> 00:54:18.550
i know it's not a soccer show i just don't care okay it also has a really a.
00:54:18.550 --> 00:54:21.450
Really heavily featured rolling stones needle drop.
00:54:22.276 --> 00:54:25.796
There you go yeah coming full circle so uh as
00:54:25.796 --> 00:54:28.816
the departed hit screens the stones had already been
00:54:28.816 --> 00:54:35.316
sampled numerous times like in film in general so it's like by no means even
00:54:35.316 --> 00:54:39.936
remotely original to use the stones to soundtrack your movie but uh scorsese
00:54:39.936 --> 00:54:44.496
was one of the first to do it in general using jump and jack flash uh to intro
00:54:44.496 --> 00:54:48.296
robert de niro in 1973's mean streets rates.
00:54:48.836 --> 00:54:53.276
Scorsese's also used memo from Turner in Goodfellas and I Can't Get No Satisfaction
00:54:53.276 --> 00:54:56.176
during Joe Pesci's funeral in Casino.
00:54:56.376 --> 00:55:01.296
I think he also used the Devo version of I Can't Get No Satisfaction, which is very weird.
00:55:01.516 --> 00:55:06.916
Yeah. Aviv, I wrote this in our notes because I wanted to make sure I asked
00:55:06.916 --> 00:55:11.116
you, what is your favorite or least favorite use of a Stone song in a movie or show?
00:55:11.336 --> 00:55:14.716
I generally try not to peek at your notes before the show,
00:55:14.796 --> 00:55:18.196
and I'm very glad that I did because it gave me some time to think okay good
00:55:18.196 --> 00:55:24.576
am i uh absolute my first knee-jerk reaction when you said rolling stones needle
00:55:24.576 --> 00:55:30.156
drop was ruby tuesday in royal tenenbaums that.
00:55:30.156 --> 00:55:32.076
Is a good one good choice.
00:55:32.076 --> 00:55:36.736
Yeah and i also think the one that you mentioned the the jumping jack flash
00:55:36.736 --> 00:55:41.196
to intro robert de niro's character in mean streets is like extremely good but
00:55:41.196 --> 00:55:44.476
jumping jack flash is like one of my top stone songs.
00:55:44.696 --> 00:55:48.216
So it like throws me in that direction a little bit more, but I,
00:55:48.236 --> 00:55:53.416
I think let it bleed, which is what has gimme shelter on it and let it bleed.
00:55:53.496 --> 00:55:57.916
And I also think jumping jack flash is like the best stones record.
00:55:58.896 --> 00:55:59.836
It's so, so good.
00:55:59.976 --> 00:56:07.916
Yeah. Well, let's get back to The Departed and additional crime films of Scorsese.
00:56:08.196 --> 00:56:14.296
Though it's expressing a common anti-war sentiment that was heavily prevalent
00:56:14.296 --> 00:56:19.736
in the late 60s, early 70s, and commenting on the overall instability and loss
00:56:19.736 --> 00:56:21.816
of innocence of the late 60s,
00:56:21.876 --> 00:56:27.136
Gimme Shelter is well-placed in any environment that is teetering on the edge of chaos,
00:56:27.136 --> 00:56:31.856
such as organized crime where things are going going going until they very much
00:56:31.856 --> 00:56:37.836
are not and there were some lyrics within gimme shelter that.
00:56:37.836 --> 00:56:39.096
Spoke directly.
00:56:39.096 --> 00:56:45.456
To young colin i thought so a storm is threatening my very life today could
00:56:45.456 --> 00:56:50.956
all it speaks to young colin who is obviously very bright but vulnerable and
00:56:50.956 --> 00:56:54.096
in need of positive reinforcement and support from a father figure who ends
00:56:54.096 --> 00:56:56.736
up being frank who uses him for his own ends under.
00:56:56.736 --> 00:57:01.816
The guise of mentorship and like frank is the storm right yes frank is the storm
00:57:01.816 --> 00:57:05.176
we we think frank is the shelter but frank is the store exactly.
00:57:05.176 --> 00:57:07.676
Yes yes yes perfect.
00:57:07.676 --> 00:57:10.416
Button but but yeah button uh
00:57:10.416 --> 00:57:14.116
yeah and and you know the the the famous
00:57:14.116 --> 00:57:17.096
chorus war children it's just shot away rape murder
00:57:17.096 --> 00:57:20.916
it's just shot away is ultimately i think what uh is
00:57:20.916 --> 00:57:27.736
like the impending danger of like uh colin and billy are both living on knife's
00:57:27.736 --> 00:57:32.356
edge of like the as you say they both keep narrowly missing each other and they
00:57:32.356 --> 00:57:37.396
go around the wrong corner in boston and and they got a gun in their face or
00:57:37.396 --> 00:57:40.856
a knife in their in their belly um yeah Yeah.
00:57:40.856 --> 00:57:45.196
The walls are closing. At first, this
00:57:45.196 --> 00:57:56.716
is one of those pieces of media that shows something like machinery moving seemingly
00:57:56.716 --> 00:58:02.816
like everything's kind of in its right place and moving and the products are
00:58:02.816 --> 00:58:04.136
being made and we're going.
00:58:04.136 --> 00:58:11.736
But if that but it's unsustainable and that instability is as you said it on
00:58:11.736 --> 00:58:17.636
like puts these characters just on a knife's edge until like i think even dicaprio
00:58:17.636 --> 00:58:22.356
at some point is like i'm going to be found out it's just a matter of when yeah.
00:58:22.356 --> 00:58:27.476
And and even at the end when colin is found out and he's just like i'm just
00:58:27.476 --> 00:58:29.636
glad it's over just like fucking do it already.
00:58:29.636 --> 00:58:31.556
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:53.309 --> 00:58:57.929
And there's some quote that I read that he like didn't even remember having used it before.
00:58:58.109 --> 00:59:02.789
But I find it I kind of find that hard to believe that that sounds like a little impish to me.
00:59:03.749 --> 00:59:10.429
So his first Scorsese's first use of Gimme Shelters and Goodfellas and Goodfellas
00:59:10.429 --> 00:59:14.289
is also very famous for its Layla needle drop that I refuse to talk about because
00:59:14.289 --> 00:59:16.069
I hate Eric Clapton so much.
00:59:16.729 --> 00:59:18.469
It's deserved. It's a deserved hatred.
00:59:18.709 --> 00:59:19.809
He's a really bad person.
00:59:19.849 --> 00:59:21.349
He is a bad person.
00:59:21.349 --> 00:59:27.109
And Gimme Shelter is used in a voiceover montage of Ray Liotta's Henry Hill
00:59:27.109 --> 00:59:30.289
talking about his cocaine running business out of Pittsburgh.
00:59:30.869 --> 00:59:37.509
And just for reference, that musical montage and Gimme Shelter lasts about one
00:59:37.509 --> 00:59:39.349
minute and five seconds on screen.
00:59:39.349 --> 00:59:42.349
Then five years later in casino which
00:59:42.349 --> 00:59:45.669
feels to me in many ways like a goodfellas follow-up
00:59:45.669 --> 00:59:48.909
it uses a live version of gimme shelter over you
00:59:48.909 --> 00:59:51.829
guessed it a voiceover montage of this time
00:59:51.829 --> 00:59:56.489
both deniro and joe pesci talking about all the murders that joe pesci's character
00:59:56.489 --> 01:00:01.189
nikki is committing and i shit you not the montage is the exact same length
01:00:01.189 --> 01:00:06.569
one minute and five seconds even though the song it's different i feel like
01:00:06.569 --> 01:00:09.189
i'm going all da vinci code on the show now yeah.
01:00:09.189 --> 01:00:12.329
I mean it's it's definitely a rabbit hole and.
01:00:12.329 --> 01:00:12.969
Yeah i.
01:00:12.969 --> 01:00:17.409
I don't blame you i i would probably be there to accept that that the amount
01:00:17.409 --> 01:00:22.249
of scorsese films that i've seen is i think pales in comparison to.
01:00:22.249 --> 01:00:28.689
The amount i'm not like even a huge fan of his i find his persona interesting
01:00:28.689 --> 01:00:33.389
and i'll kind of get to that in a second of like he has this reputation for
01:00:33.389 --> 01:00:38.369
being the mob movie guy when I don't know if that's necessarily warranted.
01:00:39.869 --> 01:00:42.609
I mean there's,
01:00:43.738 --> 01:00:50.558
Definitely something there. I think he's in a group of mob movie people.
01:00:50.938 --> 01:00:57.338
Like, I haven't seen Goodfellas, but I have seen both Godfathers.
01:00:58.818 --> 01:00:59.698
Yeah, Goodfellas, I think.
01:00:59.738 --> 01:01:05.878
And all of the Sopranos more than once. So I appreciate the sophistication of the milieu.
01:01:05.878 --> 01:01:14.078
Yeah and and i i don't love goodfellas as much as most men my age love goodfellas
01:01:14.078 --> 01:01:17.698
i think it is like okay pretty right right.
01:01:17.698 --> 01:01:21.958
Um it's not again it's not for me.
01:01:21.958 --> 01:01:23.718
Um i.
01:01:23.718 --> 01:01:31.258
I enjoy like a non well an unconventional mob movie like that that that shows
01:01:31.258 --> 01:01:38.738
dysfunction like like i really liked the wolf of wall street for another kind of organized crime i.
01:01:38.738 --> 01:01:43.418
Think you can put scorsese's movies in like kind of four different categories
01:01:43.418 --> 01:01:48.918
which is like mob movies movies about like unconventional organized crime which
01:01:48.918 --> 01:01:52.798
you could lump in things like wolf of wall street the,
01:01:53.538 --> 01:01:57.238
killers of the flower moon that kind of thing yeah it's like which i.
01:01:57.238 --> 01:01:58.078
Did really like i.
01:01:58.078 --> 01:02:02.738
Recently saw mob adjacent and then there are like thrillers like Shutter Island
01:02:02.738 --> 01:02:07.998
and Cape Fear and then there's like Cundon and The Last Temptation of Christ
01:02:07.998 --> 01:02:09.798
and like just weird I forgot.
01:02:09.798 --> 01:02:11.578
About The Last Temptation but.
01:02:11.578 --> 01:02:17.638
I think this also speaks to like what you were talking about the departed appearing
01:02:17.638 --> 01:02:20.118
to be a return to form with,
01:02:21.898 --> 01:02:28.938
Scorsese where like so his first era is like taxi driver,
01:02:29.638 --> 01:02:34.358
kind of thrillery era Bean Streets is kind of about the mob is definitely about
01:02:34.358 --> 01:02:38.898
the mob and then like era two is like gangster movies,
01:02:39.758 --> 01:02:44.438
Goodfellas casino and this feels like the beginning of era three Gangs of New
01:02:44.438 --> 01:02:49.278
York I feel like is an unconventional mobster movie right because it's like gangs but it's like.
01:02:50.751 --> 01:02:54.071
In the 1800s um and then this
01:02:54.071 --> 01:02:56.811
feels like oh the maybe the end of
01:02:56.811 --> 01:03:00.311
that era or the beginning of the next era where we are
01:03:00.311 --> 01:03:08.431
returning to similar themes different actors because pesci and deniro have aged
01:03:08.431 --> 01:03:17.911
out i guess but similar musical cues similar themes um and as we mentioned in the
01:03:17.951 --> 01:03:20.731
departed the third usage of gimme shelter
01:03:20.731 --> 01:03:24.091
is actually two usages of voiceover
01:03:24.091 --> 01:03:27.091
montage interrupted by a scene with different music
01:03:27.091 --> 01:03:30.111
and then gimme shelter reappears later
01:03:30.111 --> 01:03:33.051
in the film making the usage
01:03:33.051 --> 01:03:37.671
either four or five depending on how you count it when basically the only woman
01:03:37.671 --> 01:03:42.431
character in the movie vera farmiga's madeline a police psychologist who's dating
01:03:42.431 --> 01:03:47.831
colin and And treating and eventually sleeping with Billy nests with Colin in
01:03:47.831 --> 01:03:51.251
a moment of domestic bliss. But this is not a montage.
01:03:51.711 --> 01:03:59.791
This is like a weird, very weirdly edited by the great Thelma Schumacher scene
01:03:59.791 --> 01:04:02.831
where they're like kind of nesting.
01:04:02.931 --> 01:04:07.351
And she's like, she like has this photo of herself as a child.
01:04:07.451 --> 01:04:10.451
And he's like, we're not hanging that up. I don't. But he's like joking around.
01:04:10.451 --> 01:04:16.031
And then Frank Costello calls and he has, he's pulled back into work,
01:04:16.131 --> 01:04:21.831
but it's so strange that he has this Scorsese has this pattern of montage.
01:04:22.971 --> 01:04:27.831
A voiceover, information delivery, montage, give me shelter, rinse, repeat.
01:04:27.991 --> 01:04:32.471
And then the last time that he uses it in his career, at least thus far,
01:04:32.551 --> 01:04:39.251
is this really kind of by the book, a B conversation scene. Yeah.
01:04:40.766 --> 01:04:43.046
What the, what the fuck, what the fuck is up with that, man?
01:04:44.046 --> 01:04:45.846
You tell me, I don't know.
01:04:45.926 --> 01:04:50.106
I've been thinking a lot about it because we've been planning this episode for a while.
01:04:50.186 --> 01:04:54.326
And I think it can be right. So like Frank calls and interrupts the thing.
01:04:54.406 --> 01:04:57.106
So he's, he's the storm that's coming maybe.
01:04:57.546 --> 01:05:04.546
Or this is like the, this could also be kind of like reminiscent of the boy
01:05:04.546 --> 01:05:10.346
that Colin was in the diner before Frank got him and scooped him up.
01:05:10.346 --> 01:05:16.746
Like this is his opportunity for like a normal life or maybe some combination of both things.
01:05:16.886 --> 01:05:18.826
But it's like a super interesting.
01:05:19.706 --> 01:05:23.546
On paper, nothing about the scene makes sense. The editing doesn't make sense.
01:05:23.646 --> 01:05:24.666
The music doesn't make sense.
01:05:24.866 --> 01:05:28.106
There's continuity errors all over the place. There's jump cuts. It's crazy.
01:05:28.366 --> 01:05:32.126
But it becomes the super memorable scene because of that.
01:05:32.126 --> 01:05:33.306
And.
01:05:33.306 --> 01:05:41.526
Therefore it's important to the movie in some in this like thematic way that
01:05:41.526 --> 01:05:45.846
i can't quite wrap my head around even though i've seen this movie numerous
01:05:45.846 --> 01:05:47.726
times over the last 18 years.
01:05:47.726 --> 01:05:55.326
I i thought the having only seen it once in the last week i i thought the uh young
01:05:55.566 --> 01:05:58.846
beer from farmica right farm
01:05:58.846 --> 01:06:01.466
farmica farmica i'm not i'm not the guy
01:06:01.466 --> 01:06:04.286
who pronounces i don't want to pronounce i don't want to pronounce it like
01:06:04.286 --> 01:06:11.026
um for my like the table like the table yeah exactly but i i liked i i thought
01:06:11.026 --> 01:06:17.106
it was interesting the juxtaposition of how matt damon responds to it like i
01:06:17.106 --> 01:06:21.606
don't want to i don't really want to see it haha don't hang it up because oh
01:06:21.606 --> 01:06:23.786
this picture of you yeah this picture of you because i don't,
01:06:24.686 --> 01:06:30.006
like presumably it might make me think of my childhood which I don't want I
01:06:30.006 --> 01:06:33.026
only want to keep looking forward I don't want to look back and,
01:06:34.286 --> 01:06:38.926
because if I do then I'll start thinking more about the moral ambiguity of what I'm doing and then,
01:06:39.751 --> 01:06:47.331
When Leo DiCaprio, and then when Leo DiCaprio looks at it, at the photo or the
01:06:47.331 --> 01:06:50.411
painting or whatever it is, he has a totally different reaction.
01:06:50.551 --> 01:06:55.071
He's like, it's nice. And then he physically hangs it up as though looking back
01:06:55.071 --> 01:06:57.171
to his childhood might not be quite.
01:06:57.191 --> 01:07:00.091
That's the comfortably numb scene, right?
01:07:00.751 --> 01:07:03.331
That's like where they consummate their relationship.
01:07:03.491 --> 01:07:06.311
Which is something that Colin can't do with Madeline.
01:07:07.011 --> 01:07:12.411
Yeah. Yeah, well, it's like they suggest that Colin can't, well,
01:07:12.551 --> 01:07:17.291
I mean, I assume that they consummated at some point, but she ends up pregnant.
01:07:17.571 --> 01:07:21.331
Well, that's Billy's kid. I mean, that's Billy's kid.
01:07:21.331 --> 01:07:23.451
I mean, we have to assume it's Billy's kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:23.691 --> 01:07:25.691
But yeah, I think so, right?
01:07:25.771 --> 01:07:29.391
But for Colin to think that it could be his, that means that they'd have to have.
01:07:29.711 --> 01:07:30.071
Exactly.
01:07:30.211 --> 01:07:30.371
Yeah.
01:07:30.411 --> 01:07:33.651
At least once. But yeah, there is a lot to do.
01:07:33.751 --> 01:07:36.631
As you said, this is like a penis, penis, penis movie. Like,
01:07:36.631 --> 01:07:38.791
I think that's text, right?
01:07:38.891 --> 01:07:46.831
Like, like Colin is textually impotent and called gay a lot.
01:07:47.071 --> 01:07:50.111
Frank is also called gay a lot.
01:07:50.271 --> 01:07:55.991
And I think that there is this like, I, you know, I'm not a scholarship in LGBTQ
01:07:55.991 --> 01:08:01.651
media, but I don't necessarily think that what the movie is saying is like,
01:08:01.731 --> 01:08:05.231
these mobsters are, are gay and they can't be real.
01:08:05.231 --> 01:08:08.571
Really who they are so that's why they kill people sort of thing but I think
01:08:08.571 --> 01:08:14.271
it's like an interesting idea of masculinity to the point that Costello asks
01:08:14.271 --> 01:08:19.991
Colin to meet him in a porno theater at one point and like waves around a giant
01:08:19.991 --> 01:08:24.711
dildo which is a scene which was cut out in the India release of the movie well.
01:08:24.711 --> 01:08:26.891
Yeah I have a theory that.
01:08:26.891 --> 01:08:28.151
In any.
01:08:28.151 --> 01:08:33.911
Environment with that much concentrated maleness there's going to be,
01:08:34.921 --> 01:08:38.961
something um homosexual happening
01:08:38.961 --> 01:08:41.681
like i think so like i'm not saying this
01:08:41.681 --> 01:08:44.461
is like a all the time type of thing
01:08:44.461 --> 01:08:49.521
but i i think that like okay let's let's
01:08:49.521 --> 01:08:52.681
use the uh orthodox the
01:08:52.681 --> 01:08:55.781
ultra orthodox synagogue for example in
01:08:55.781 --> 01:08:59.041
in hasidic communities boys are
01:08:59.041 --> 01:09:01.961
raised only around each other sure and then
01:09:01.961 --> 01:09:07.661
when they come of age there's like this undercurrent of a little bit of experimentation
01:09:07.661 --> 01:09:14.541
with each other because women are if they act doesn't really matter what they
01:09:14.541 --> 01:09:21.421
are predisposed to to like they just like this is all that's around yeah.
01:09:21.421 --> 01:09:22.661
It's availability right.
01:09:22.661 --> 01:09:26.561
Yeah and uh so that's one environment and
01:09:26.561 --> 01:09:29.641
then there's there's this okay you'll probably
01:09:29.641 --> 01:09:32.401
know what i'm talking about when because i don't remember the name
01:09:32.401 --> 01:09:36.721
it might be good it's not good fellas it might be uh boondock saints but um
01:09:36.721 --> 01:09:41.821
i remember like my ex was a film guy and i remember he used to talk about like
01:09:41.821 --> 01:09:51.381
this mob movie where one guy was so so masculine and male that he only slept with men that's.
01:09:51.381 --> 01:09:53.901
I don't think that's boondocks and that might be boondock saints actually.
01:09:53.901 --> 01:09:55.401
Um i I think Willem.
01:09:55.401 --> 01:09:59.801
Dafoe's character is gay in that. I don't really like that movie,
01:09:59.861 --> 01:10:02.781
so I've only seen it once about 20 years ago. That might be.
01:10:02.801 --> 01:10:08.561
But it's like he's so ultra masculine and he makes a point to be that he will only sleep with men.
01:10:08.681 --> 01:10:11.641
That's like that Simpsons joke. Ooh, you like girls, that's so gay.
01:10:13.221 --> 01:10:17.241
Yeah, but I think that there's like, it's an interesting discussion,
01:10:18.601 --> 01:10:22.901
that the movie is having in a way that Casino
01:10:22.901 --> 01:10:29.921
and Goodfellas do not really tackle that um and i mean just catholic catholic
01:10:29.921 --> 01:10:34.461
repression catholic yeah and and i think that there's that and i think costello
01:10:34.461 --> 01:10:40.161
like makes a handful of references of like priests diddling kids yeah even doesn't.
01:10:40.161 --> 01:10:46.901
He even like approach priests at a diner table and says something like look
01:10:46.901 --> 01:10:52.841
i'm not here to judge you're sleeping with young boys but he just like puts it right out there.
01:10:53.181 --> 01:11:02.801
And that is interesting because that was, I mean, a thing that everyone quietly knew about for decades,
01:11:03.041 --> 01:11:10.201
but the spotlight expose was only five years before this, right?
01:11:10.221 --> 01:11:15.141
So it's still in the, it's like around nine, this is a post 9-11 film,
01:11:15.221 --> 01:11:18.761
as you mentioned, this is like also a post spotlight Boston film.
01:11:18.761 --> 01:11:20.581
Right, right, right.
01:11:20.761 --> 01:11:26.881
And like the grooming of children for these nefarious purposes is like this
01:11:26.881 --> 01:11:28.921
undercurrent in this film.
01:11:29.401 --> 01:11:31.501
Super interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:33.222 --> 01:11:38.802
Specifically, if we only look at the actual mob category of Scorsese's films,
01:11:39.042 --> 01:11:42.402
this is only his fourth out of 21 movies.
01:11:42.602 --> 01:11:47.502
Mean Streets, which, as we said, uses Jumpin' Jack Flash, and then the two previously
01:11:47.502 --> 01:11:49.122
mentioned Goodfellas and Casino.
01:11:49.422 --> 01:11:54.822
So I'm starting to think of this as like a Scorsese mob trilogy,
01:11:55.262 --> 01:12:01.362
one that deals with the idea of corruptibility and loyalty and trust and ratting on your friends.
01:12:01.362 --> 01:12:04.102
Ends goodfellas famously ends with henry hill ratting on
01:12:04.102 --> 01:12:07.022
all his friends and going into witness protection and that's like
01:12:07.022 --> 01:12:10.702
amped up to 11 in the departed where basically everyone
01:12:10.702 --> 01:12:13.622
working for the state troopers is with
01:12:13.622 --> 01:12:17.022
the exception of mark walberg is corrupt and everyone
01:12:17.022 --> 01:12:20.542
working for costello is secretly a cop as evidenced
01:12:20.542 --> 01:12:23.902
in that scene that we mentioned about two of
01:12:23.902 --> 01:12:27.462
costello's men david o'hara and mark ralston like saying well
01:12:27.462 --> 01:12:30.822
if you don't look at me you're a cop and they're both turned out to be cops
01:12:30.822 --> 01:12:35.162
and the rock goes all the way up literally as the last shot of the departed
01:12:35.162 --> 01:12:39.522
in the last shot of the part of the computer generated rat crawls across collins
01:12:39.522 --> 01:12:44.962
bannister as it overlooks the state house in boston did.
01:12:44.962 --> 01:12:45.762
You find that too.
01:12:45.762 --> 01:12:51.982
Obvious yes i did i did 18 years ago and i still do yeah.
01:12:51.982 --> 01:12:52.882
I did too.
01:12:52.882 --> 01:12:56.622
What is it about gimme shelter that unites these themes
01:12:56.622 --> 01:13:00.842
in this gimme shelter trilogy as
01:13:00.842 --> 01:13:03.922
we said notably he hasn't used the tracks
01:13:03.922 --> 01:13:07.862
in the nearly 20 years since the departed's release and we
01:13:07.862 --> 01:13:12.102
have this like sense of doom and foreboding and walking on the knife's edge
01:13:12.102 --> 01:13:18.382
that i think is like is present in all three of these movies and not so much
01:13:18.382 --> 01:13:24.162
in mean streets in the same way mean streets is a very different style than these films.
01:13:24.302 --> 01:13:29.142
And so I feel like this is kind of the beginning, middle and end of this era
01:13:29.142 --> 01:13:35.882
of Scorsese, which is like figuring out loyalty and friendship and,
01:13:35.882 --> 01:13:38.162
and the corruptibility of man.
01:13:40.542 --> 01:13:46.302
Yeah. I, I stick to what I was saying earlier in the episode where it's like
01:13:46.302 --> 01:13:50.702
this overlap of, of the Venn diagram is, is,
01:13:51.287 --> 01:13:54.627
I mean, it's a circle. It's constantly in flux, yeah, but ultimately it's just
01:13:54.627 --> 01:13:56.487
a circle with the exception of Mark Wahlberg.
01:13:56.667 --> 01:14:01.167
And they were going to do a sequel because Infernal Affairs has two sequels.
01:14:01.227 --> 01:14:05.987
They were going to do a sequel to The Departed that basically followed Dignam
01:14:05.987 --> 01:14:10.907
because, spoilers, he's kind of the only character that lives.
01:14:12.407 --> 01:14:16.547
And that never materialized and Mark Wahlberg doesn't do R-rated movies now
01:14:16.547 --> 01:14:17.967
because he's a total weirdo.
01:14:17.967 --> 01:14:23.787
But uh it doesn't seem like martin scorsese cares as much about boston as the
01:14:23.787 --> 01:14:27.607
departed fans do because the film was primarily shot in new york.
01:14:27.607 --> 01:14:35.167
Well that makes sense i did well oh my god holy shit i was while i was watching
01:14:35.167 --> 01:14:40.947
i was like that looks like new york i mean in boston like that looks like a new york block it is i.
01:14:40.947 --> 01:14:44.687
Think it's like 70 30 new york and boston.
01:14:44.687 --> 01:14:50.487
Well that That validates a lot without doing the necessary research as to where
01:14:50.487 --> 01:14:54.387
precisely this movie was filmed. Because I was like, it doesn't look like Boston.
01:14:54.507 --> 01:14:58.147
Yeah, yes. A huge amount of it is in New York.
01:14:58.227 --> 01:15:00.387
Well, well, well, Boston wanting to be New York.
01:15:00.807 --> 01:15:07.327
I used to teach at a summer camp for young filmmakers.
01:15:07.527 --> 01:15:10.587
And every year we went on the Boston movie tour.
01:15:10.827 --> 01:15:15.387
And so this was like 2007, 2008, 2009. nine and so they're all like the departed
01:15:15.387 --> 01:15:17.287
the departed the departed the departed and the.
01:15:17.287 --> 01:15:17.847
Tour guide.
01:15:17.847 --> 01:15:19.627
Was like most of that's in new york sorry.
01:15:19.627 --> 01:15:25.207
I also don't want to go without saying that um have you have you seen uh martin
01:15:25.207 --> 01:15:30.367
scorsese's granddaughter on tiktok yes very entertaining i am a big francesca
01:15:30.367 --> 01:15:32.847
very entertaining i don't think that's.
01:15:32.847 --> 01:15:34.287
His granddaughter i think that's his daughter.
01:15:34.287 --> 01:15:40.247
Oh it's his daughter okay yeah you're probably right it's been a minute since
01:15:40.247 --> 01:15:44.567
I think I saw them together at the Oscars for Killers of the Flower Moon and
01:15:44.567 --> 01:15:46.907
was like, yay, and then just forgot all about it.
01:15:46.967 --> 01:15:51.447
She is his daughter. Yeah. Born in 1999 when he was.
01:15:51.567 --> 01:15:57.507
That is, I mean, hey, if you can still do it.
01:15:57.567 --> 01:15:59.007
If you can still do it.
01:15:59.047 --> 01:16:02.207
Clearly they're bonding. That's all I really, I mean. Yes.
01:16:02.427 --> 01:16:08.387
And they're in like a commercial together now for Wix or Squarespace or something?
01:16:08.887 --> 01:16:10.367
Yeah. Well, great.
01:16:11.087 --> 01:16:11.887
Good for him.
01:16:12.007 --> 01:16:17.067
Good for them. Bond with your daughter before you can't bond with her anymore.
01:16:17.367 --> 01:16:23.047
He was 57 when he had her, which is old, but not that old.
01:16:23.107 --> 01:16:29.267
That's the thing. I mean- It's okay. I know some people in my life who've,
01:16:29.387 --> 01:16:36.547
not women, but men who've procreated at that age, and they seem very happy. So yeah, whatever-
01:16:39.053 --> 01:16:41.393
what you know whatever makes your life a full circle.
01:16:41.393 --> 01:16:45.853
Yeah and i have very complicated relationships i have to take each of his movies
01:16:45.853 --> 01:16:50.873
like separately because i really really hated the irishman and really really
01:16:50.873 --> 01:16:55.293
loved the killers of the flower moon so i just have to i can't i never know
01:16:55.293 --> 01:16:58.313
what i'm going to get with him which i think is how he likes it i.
01:16:58.313 --> 01:17:04.713
Do like that he even though so many of his movies are are very long.
01:17:04.713 --> 01:17:06.193
I he.
01:17:06.193 --> 01:17:08.473
Justifies them with a really strong pacing.
01:17:08.473 --> 01:17:11.393
Oh yeah and that's Thelma that's.
01:17:11.393 --> 01:17:13.993
Something I think I oh okay that's that's the editor yeah.
01:17:13.993 --> 01:17:20.373
Yeah she's so Thelma Schoonmaker is has been his editor since Raging Bull since
01:17:20.373 --> 01:17:26.773
1980 she's awesome and she is the like one of the greatest to ever to ever do it cool.
01:17:26.773 --> 01:17:31.893
Yeah because I think um I put off seeing Killers of the Flower Moon because.
01:17:31.893 --> 01:17:33.173
I thought yeah.
01:17:33.173 --> 01:17:35.253
I thought it was just going to be a log and and that.
01:17:35.253 --> 01:17:35.673
I needed.
01:17:35.673 --> 01:17:39.513
To be in the right headspace to have the attention span really and then when
01:17:39.513 --> 01:17:45.173
it dropped on apple tv plus that's when i sat down to watch it and and was pretty
01:17:45.173 --> 01:17:48.853
riveted from start to finish and was just like i didn't expect to be that riveted.
01:17:48.853 --> 01:17:52.233
And he gets really good performances out of people clearly
01:17:52.233 --> 01:17:55.173
leonardo caprio and yeah and deniro are
01:17:55.173 --> 01:17:58.253
both like his guys yeah thank you
01:17:58.253 --> 01:18:01.553
so much for listening we are aviv
01:18:01.553 --> 01:18:04.853
and rachel we're going to be off next week just as a reminder to prepare
01:18:04.853 --> 01:18:08.213
prepare hey i
01:18:08.213 --> 01:18:11.613
got there eventually for our big season
01:18:11.613 --> 01:18:14.773
two finale which you can hear on july the
01:18:14.773 --> 01:18:20.313
9th and in the meantime follow us on facebook twitter instagram tiktok we're
01:18:20.313 --> 01:18:25.953
at the in sync pod say hello to us there we are edited by katie yoner production
01:18:25.953 --> 01:18:30.873
coordinator kyle bosh associate producer lou baron social media producer dale
01:18:30.873 --> 01:18:33.553
stanflea executive produced Produced by Tommy West.
01:18:33.753 --> 01:18:37.473
Original music by Taylor, the Boston man barefoot.
01:18:38.733 --> 01:18:43.013
NSYNC is a production of Gotham West Studios. We'll see you in two weeks.
01:18:43.193 --> 01:18:44.133
Thanks for listening.
01:18:44.553 --> 01:18:45.513
Thanks for listening.