speaker-0: No, I mean I actually wanna get Dinko's POV, Kearsen deck from Jason to be honest with you. Jason said
speaker-1: He wasn't he wasn't he wasn't part of the crazy games is the issue. You were playing one of One of them
speaker-2: I was playing game where I was about to win dominantly and you counter my commander and ruined the game for me. And then came third out of fourth, Jason.
speaker-1: In my defense though, I won on my next turn. I did it for a reason. I didn't just do it to be a d
speaker-2: You didn't win. You died in the next turn and then Alex won the game.
speaker-1: you're talking about that game. Yeah. Yeah, that game yeah.
speaker-0: Spiteful, Jason.
speaker-1: No, it was it was the only chance I had to to live and and fight back was to counter his commander, let Alex go through No, not counter your commander, counter your spell and go through with let Alex do
speaker-2: Let all my shit die.
speaker-1: Yeah, basically.
speaker-0: Who wait, who are you running, Dinko? Was it the your mono later gun?
speaker-2: Yeah, it's from no, it's human deck. It's it started as Riders of Rohan precon, but it definitely doesn't seem like that anymore.
speaker-0: Alright, so just to tee everybody up, Jason's already just like grumpy. So like just this whole episode we're gonna just try to rage bait Jason. what are you grumpy? But they're literally it's his own choices, really. We get on, him and I are talking, he's like, Man, this schedule, like, motherfucker, you planned it. Like you did this.
speaker-1: No, I'm not I'm not putting the responsibility on anyone else. Most of my grumpiness and frustration is directed inward.
speaker-2: I woke up this morning I woke up this morning really early and I'm rolling out with my golf clubs in the morning. Who opens the door in the hallway next to me? Jason Moses are tool.
speaker-0: Good morning. How could you do this to me? No way. Get away from me.
speaker-1: I had to go in and I I had to go in and do a podcast with ESL. and then I did a talk encounter podcast and now I'm doing a in Q podcast.
speaker-0: You just never.
speaker-2: You said for last.
speaker-1: I do my best, I try to shut the fuck up. Nobody lets me.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, it is kind of funny to get you revved up. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. Speak
speaker-2: Well let's talk more about Flomland.
speaker-0: Yeah, I was about to say, hey, I was I was right there, Dinko. I had it. I had it. The yeah, what did you guys think, man? Glaze me a little bit. Remember, I am also your employer in this scenario. What'd you guys think? You know, go through the list that Chris made for us. He gave us bullet points and stuff. If you guys wanna Holy shit. Yeah, you guys could even reference that. Like what it give me, give me the rundown. What it what what did Moses and Dinko think of FML?
speaker-2: Well, my initial take is it's one of my favorite events to work because it's just you I heard something really was when you leave Discord, does it play like a Halloween sound, do you know?
speaker-0: Yes, yes it does. Welcome to Discord.
speaker-2: That freaked me out. overall I think the event was one of my favorite that I've worked just because it's such a unique feeling as a caster. Like we get to sort of be one with the audience, which is really cool. Like both the chat at home but also the guys at the venue. It felt pretty similar to the first one, which is good because the first one was really good, but it just felt more polished around the edges. But also it felt like much more of a team effort in general, like sitting after work, talking with everyone and you know everyone was so hungry to improve on even the smallest of details. so for the most part, I just I thought this was a really, really fun event to be a part of. And, you know, obviously a lot of work in terms of like game to game to game, but I think we did very good. I think the content side of things was just so much better this year. I think the the talent the it the display behind the scenes too, the content was just so so fun to watch and turned out really well. So that I just really enjoyed being a part of the event.
speaker-0: How nice were those words each time compared to the first one? Five minute break?
speaker-1: Yeah love here and that.
speaker-0: Not the fourteen hour days. Ferme says break. I'm like, how long? How long? How long is this one?
speaker-1: Yeah. Like do I is this like a pea break or is this like I can sit down and eat a sandwich break?
speaker-0: Yeah, exactly.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm I mean I I told you before we even went live and I wasn't I wasn't bullshitting that it's just like an event that's like good for the soul for me. It feels like like for for all these bigger events that we do, which are obviously phenomenal and and they're their own like unique kind of special, but there is like a disconnect it feels once you get into the big arenas between the fans, the audience and like the game itself where now there's this s spectacle of the arena and the and the arena show that's there. It's not a bad thing, but I love I love getting to come do the smaller events and like yours feeling so like grassroots and so community oriented. It is just one of those ones that just makes me feel like so much happier about still being in this capacity of of working in Counter Strike. and it's a kind of just a good reminder of why why this kind of industry and why this job working in CS is is so is so special and so unique. so for me it was like one of it's like an event that when I go to that, yeah, it's tiring. Yeah, the co streamer schedule's long, breaks are nice, but it's still long days. but it's it's just like a Good for the soul, you know, like it it actually feels like it's healing to me a little bit. I felt the way about the first one too. and then it's also fun watching you from your end of of the event, like starting to like try and figure out more and more in terms of like improving like the tournament side for the players and for the teams. It it really feels like I've kind of like teleported back in time to like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, like dream hacks, as they were kind of like building up, you know like obviously like a smaller scale, but that that feeling of like we're we're building something, like we're starting here and we have these goals to like move somewhere. and that's a feeling that I think these days, because the TOs have been so set for like the past ten years, these days that feeling is kind of hard to come by in this job. So I I personally I fucking love that feeling. I love feeling like I'm building some some new event and some new show from the ground up. So so for me that's that's the fucking ace in the hole.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, well one, I see why everybody wants you to talk, Jason. You're pretty good at it. You should keep doing that full time just thought I'd let you know you're doing pretty good. I I am kind of curious though, like just to kind of pick your guys' brain on a podcast, 'cause I think people you know, people ask me a lot to like get more people in there or like am I ever gonna scale it up? How it what would you guys do? I'm curious, 'cause I'll I'll I'll I'll give you guys my my dilemma in internally, which is I want more people to be at the event because more people means bigger things, right? That I could potentially do. But then if I go bigger, do I lose the feeling of what I've created in that venue? Or if I even go slightly bigger, does that venue create such a unique scenario where it's almost impossible to replicate that feeling in that building in other locations as well? So that's kind of like I I don't know. How to get more people necessarily and maintain the feeling, or if I do get more people, do I make it something else? So like I kind of have like FML and then I have like, I don't know, we'll just say the FLOM Pro Tournament, blah, blah, blah. Whatever, like the bigger version that's like maybe more TO style that you're accustomed to, or like what what I'm just curious, pick your guys' brain, like what do you guys think? If I wanted to expand ticket sales and get more people to to experience an event that I'm running But not lose the feeling that we've created with the first two. Do you guys have any ideas? Or or any thoughts, rather?
speaker-2: I think it's interesting 'cause I think this week, I think this weekend should be really important f for that style of broadcast because we're about to run this fun ESL pro league style format that we've been doing for the last couple of seasons, but doing it in the Spo deck, right? So we're scaling this up into a a much larger venue and we was I just got back from the rehearsal for the event and there's a conversation with production just about how much we want to involve the the crowd in it. The analyst desk's gonna be sitting in the in the crowd as well, like the couch will be in the middle of the audience inside of the spot deck. So We're coming up like games and way to involve the audience and get people involved with giveaways, et cetera. So I think it'll be interesting to see how that goes and and see if it really works. I think I think it will. I think it'll be exciting. but I feel like the venue that we're in for for FML is perfect, like for the style that we're doing right now. but if you do obviously want to scale it up, like I feel it will change slightly. It'll be always become a little less personal, but I think just the I think if you look at Dallas, like I am Dallas over the years, the American audience still had a lot of fun and a lot of memes and the community was still there. So I think you wouldn't lose as much as you think you would. I think especially with just the style of the show and the fact that it's personality driven and there people a lot of people are there, one because of the CS, but two because of you, Flomp. So I think a show driven by that core, I think it would be quite quite easy to maintain the same vibe. and then if you take it to the extreme, I think this weekend at ESL Proli will show you that you can do it in a large audience, in a large stadium.
speaker-0: So before we continue that wonderful conversation, I need to thank today's sponsor for the NQ podcast, CS Money, because without them, Money Man Moses wouldn't be able to be here and he wouldn't be able make time for us. So thank you very much, CS Money, for sponsoring NQ. As many of you guys already know, if you're familiar with my content, CS Money is strictly a trading and marketplace website. So I got lower prices than Steam. You can do quick trades. They have probably one of the biggest inventories, if not the biggest, of any site out there. You can use PayPal or crypto if you want to buy through the marketplace. They also have like an instant sell feature. So if you're just trying to move your stuff quick for whatever reason, you could do that directly through them and sell some of your inventory. If that sounds interesting, make sure you guys check out the link in the description below. As always, like to say, be careful, guys, not just like with this or with anything. Just be careful with clicking links out there. There's a lot of impersonators of all of these sites, and I just want people to be careful. Genuinely. So just you know, just a little warning for me. We'll get back into the video now. I was curious if they're gonna try that. Because I know it's Jackson, right? That gets to make the choice. And I know Jackson likes I mean, for people listening, Jackson is one of the what the head product product manager for basically Pro League, like Pro League is his is his baby, right? So and he's a North American. He's a he's a good one. And he was at FMO one not to work, just to hang out. So I I not Not that he yoinked it or anything like that. This is beyond the sub just like I think he has an appreciation for these style of events. And I feel like when you guys I feel like when you guys probably mentioned it to him or he mentioned it to you, whatever that order of operations was, him being the one that gets to, you know, say we should do this is probably the perfect person to execute that. So it is cool though that he's gonna with you guys do that in the arena. Like that that that's interesting. I wasn't sure. Because I feel like ESL as a company as a whole has been a little I don't know. Until Pro League rolls around. But then Pro League was kind of like it felt like it had to be adapted because of Malta and all the different and how long it was, right? And you kinda you couldn't do the same like rigid style. But I I never actually would have imagined that they would l kinda let it go into the big arena, but that's cool. now now I'll be taking notes while I'm watching.
speaker-1: Yeah, we we dipped our toes in it last year when we were in Stockholm, but it it was a very it was a much smaller like venue in a very different environment obviously than the Spodek will be.
speaker-2: Closer to one we have for FML, the one we had in Stockholm.
speaker-1: Yeah, definitely definitely closer in that size. still significantly larger I would say that that room we were in at Star in in Stockholm.
speaker-0: It was like a couple of thousand, right? In there?
speaker-1: Something like UK. It could hold a I think it could hold a bunch more, but I don't I don't know. I don't know. I don't I don't I didn't think I don't e I don't even know those details. I don't even know why I'm trying to talk about it. no, I I just don't remember what they were at the time. yeah, the Pro League thing, like that all started because honestly we j we got bored.
speaker-0: yeah, you can't do that.
speaker-1: Like as as the broadcast talent, it happened after that. It happened right be right before or it was the it was the Pro League and the RMR that happened right before the Rio major. We were in Malta in the same venue. It was right out of COVID. So there were all there were a bunch of like COVID restrictions as well and like little fears still lingering around. But we did like seven weeks in the same place in the same show for two different events. Like one was ESO Pro League and one was like a major qualifier. Holy fucking Coming out of that, we'd all basically like lost our fucking minds. And I remember like Chad and I sat down and like wrote down all these ideas and we spent the next like month like pitching everyone we possibly could with an ESL at every single letter of the fucking corporate ladder and and explaining like we need to get like this event that like Pro League has no identity. Like at the time it was kind of like half owned by the teams too. So it was a little bit weird, but it had no identity of what the event was supposed to be. So for us it was really easy. It was like it was like there's no like BTS shut down. There's now like no chill casual counter strike event. So there's no like event that's like meant to like engage the community in a meaningful way and get the players involved and like we're missing that within the scene. Blast was doing official shows, PGL's doing their official shows, ESL's doing their official shows. And like we needed something that was a little bit more chill. And that's at the heart of what your event is, where it's very much like community community focused. And that's like the kind of the vibe you have in that room is that it is this community. That's all there to enjoy the same thing together the way they've been doing for years and years online. So that community feel is what you're trying to keep while scaling it up, right? I think I think I think that kind of a vibe is like you can you can scale that up. You know, you're always every time you scale it up to a different size, you're gonna lose some percentage of it, right? But I feel like you could probably scale it up to like two two K, like a like a like a theater kind of environment, like a you know, like where theater instead of like arena think. in my mind. And that's that that's like a really cool environment to kind of nurture that. But I think your read on it is the correct one is I think you think you'll always want to have like an event that's that like this event that's begun that you can keep in that attitude and in that kind of magic that you found it in. And, you know, as you said, you have two two Flum events this year. you know, I don't know if you make a third or if you just change the second one, but I think having one smaller event that is more community focused and one that does change a little bit to be more competitive focused for the teams. If that's the route you want to go, I think that's an easy thing to do. But I think you'll find eventually as you start scaling it up, you hit like this point where you lose that kind of community magic and that's where you really have to think of how far you want to scale it to go to the next Yeah, ex essentially. So that's that's always the decision you're you're eventually gonna run into. And I don't know if my numbers are accurate. Maybe you can do it up to fucking five K. I don't know how many fans you have out there in the wood.
speaker-2: I think it would just be experimental as well. Like
speaker-0: We do sell it in like a minute, Jason. So
speaker-1: It's true. Yeah, I mean that's the that's the first sign that you can scale it up, right? Is when it sells out in ten minutes, you know
speaker-2: yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: There's such a yeah, I think that's the other side of like tornado organizing is just like knowing what you can do, but what do you lose when you wanna scale things up? Like what what do you lose? Do you and what's important to stay there? And I think that's the most important thing about the FML events. It's just like this unique recipe that you guys have going on in terms of your fan base l coming and just like I think they started yelling out when you were nervous about talking on stage. I think people from the crowd literally started yelling at you where it's just Talking to Twitch chat but in real life. And that was like the actual fans saying that. So you know, I I definitely get that sense from the event. Like the the memes and like the inside jokes and just yeah, they just bring it to life. I think it's really, really cool. I think it's so interesting to be able to have like a live Twitch chat. Like that's essentially what it is. So I mean
speaker-0: Yeah, it's good and bad in some ways. Well, there's gonna be one question that people keep asking me, and and Sicka will love me to ask you guys this so that way we can put a clip out of it. Do you guys think I made money on the second one? That's the Did I make money? Yes or no?
speaker-2: How much really is the question? Like how
speaker-0: no, we won't we won't go into hard numbers 'cause I can't. Okay.
speaker-2: let me think. I'm gonna logically think about this and come to a conclusion. So I would say the only things that were profitable would probably be ticket sales and merchandise and maybe like twitch subs, right? Like that would probably be the only areas where you would actually make significant money.
speaker-0: Well sponsors. I mean sponsors
speaker-2: Sponsors, yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: That's actually a pretty big one.
speaker-0: No, the last one.
speaker-2: Yeah, of course. But I'm just wondering like how much of that goes in you know, I would just take the
speaker-0: Yeah. You're wondering how much of the extra
speaker-2: Event fees or whatever. So I'd say yes, made a little bit of money, but you know, you're never anytime.
speaker-0: The answer is I asked you this question without having an answer. So that was the no I don't the answer is it's leading towards even
speaker-1: Clip that's gonna make.
speaker-0: It's leading towards even. That's where we're we gotta kinda calculate everything. So we'll see.
speaker-2: Passionate about these things and like having such a good time. Breaking even is a good place to start, isn't it?
speaker-0: No, no, breaking even for the second one. If we can if we can get to even on the second one, we're in there. The the merch is probably was the biggest surprise in a positive way. That was that's the way I'll put it. We the amount of merch we saw
speaker-1: Sick merch, dude.
speaker-0: I I appreciate. I saw you rocking it on the pro league. I saw. Yeah, dude. Yeah. We gotta get Dinko with the hoodie on and the Spodeck. That'll go well.
speaker-1: It's the Europeans don't understand the camo shirt. They're they're all a little bit confused by it.
speaker-0: The don't shoot me orange goose either. Like they have no idea what's going on. No yeah. The w we improved a lot of things. I mean, honestly, I saved a lot of money this time on a lot of shipping stuff because I actually was a lot more planned out. We had a lot more time to build this one out. So it was that was where our not only did we sell more merch, but the profit margin we had on the merch was significantly better than the first one because I wasn't like Sending this shit everywhere with an airplane. Some of it was on a boat, some of it we made like a lot of the merch is made here, but a lot of the smaller items are like they come from China, then you throw them on a boat. But if you throw them on a plane, you basically spend like eight times the amount of money on shipping. Yeah. So well, you don't have that for all the little like the playing cards, for example, right? Like those go from like being like really expensive actually to make to like dirt cheap to make, but it's actually not based on how you made it, it's the shipping. That's that's all it is. So yeah, that was the one thing that we learned from the last one that helped a lot. So hopefully even.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: We we found some mistakes in the broadcast with the ads, so we'll see how that one goes.
speaker-1: You learn you learn one of those lessons every single event and you're fucking laughing, you know what I mean?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, no, you're not wrong. Well, I'm laughing now. You didn't see my face when I initially We did what? Who fucked up where we didn't fucking me? You put playing cards on an airplane for this amount of money? Holy shit. Okay, man. No yeah. No, it's it's good. No, I was I appreciate it, man. You guys killed it, honestly again. Like I I know it's cool that we also got to make Jason make a playing a show match again against the Yo, he played another one. I know. He was you and dreadnett. You and Dreadnett. It was a vibe. I don't care what you say. You had a great time.
speaker-1: have a certain level of pride that I have to maintain in my counter strike level as a former professional player and someone who is on these broadcasts as an analyst. Those those those are dangerous. You're putting my career at risk throwing me out there into that shit.
speaker-0: I put Jordan Up and Gilbert on your team.
speaker-1: It's the same shit that ha same thing happened at ESL. they have this coaching show match that I'm supposed to like be the host of and and the guy the I'm supposed to be hosting and like having them pick the teams and just being like the game show host and blah blah blah blah blah. And I get a message the night before and it's like, hey man, so and so he said he's sick. He can't do it. can you play? And I was like, No, this can't happen again. absolutely not. There has to be someone with a brain cell who is around who can play Counter Strike and he's like, All right, all I'll go ask some other people and he messaged me back later. He's like, All right, I got one, you're good, you're clear, you're just hosting, no playing, all good. Wake up the next morning, get a message, Hey, so and so just fucking canceled. There's literally nobody else, you have to play and I was just like, Motherfucker. Yeah. How does it happen so consistently happening?
speaker-2: Jason to Jason, you need my keyboard? You got a mouse there? yeah, it was it was hilarious when I woke up and found out he's doing another show match like two days after he just
speaker-0: All I'm saying is I gave you a very stacked team, okay, Jason. And
speaker-1: You were very gentle.
speaker-0: you know, you had never been around Jakey before, the the fellow next to you, Nike Jakey. I told you. I I'm not gonna shade you. I know you probably have not watched his YouTube video yet, but I hope now that you've played a show match and been around his energy a little bit, I hope you go back. I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna fucking link this thing right now. You got home
speaker-2: Right Nake Jake is awesome. He he's a cool guy.
speaker-0: Dude, it's it's that that they carried that. They they carried that. Like Jordan, the other team, my god. It was incredible. Incredible
speaker-1: Locked in, man. Mike, Mike came up to me in the middle of a like a live round and put the microphone in front of my face to say something. And I was just I was so locked in. I was like, I'm not saying a fucking word here.
speaker-0: I didn't need to do that's what I'm saying.
speaker-1: I wasn't even thinking of your show at that point. I was like no, no.
speaker-2: I I was casting in that moment, Jason. I was like, all right, we're gonna hear from Jason. Silence. Yep. I was like, all right, he's locked in. He's locked in, guys.
speaker-1: I also had the noise cancelling headphones on so I couldn't hear what Mike was saying. So it was I was like, Nope, I'm out Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah no, I couldn't hear shit. I was doubled up too because I had these I don't know if that's how it works, but I had these in too, which the noise cancellation on these, same brand by the way. Sponsor me. Thank you. they dude, I couldn't hear shit. I mean like player
speaker-2: That's what the players do obviously. They like their in ears and then they have the noise cancelling headset over the top.
speaker-0: Well I'm saying these ones have noise cancelling built into them. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And then I had the ones over the top. I could not you could No
speaker-1: Jesus. You're in your own little world.
speaker-0: no 'cause so Mike like I take off the ear cut but I still have these in, so I still couldn't hear anything. I'm like, I don't know what the fuck to say, bro. Like I d I have no idea. Like I cannot
speaker-2: That's when Mike started drinking out of his leather boot on stage.
speaker-0: my god, Mike was an absolute animal that event. I I don't know, I he we were like, We're gonna use you more this event, Mike, and I feel like we did and he was less bored, but I still feel like at a certain point Mike was like, I got this. And then Mike just went crazy on that.
speaker-2: I know it was the point I it was the point where he realized like, keyboards take a lot longer to sign than anybody else thought. So Mike's just standing there with no direction at the front of the stage, like, I guess I gotta drink this beer out of my shoe. So good you know, good for him. He
speaker-0: This is where I'm gonna throw my production team under the bus. I told everybody on the production team, I was like, everybody should be signing when they set up their SSDs. And it didn't happen. And then everybody signed on the stage. I was like, fuck. I knew it. I was I'm throwing the whole team under the bus on this one. I was like, I c I knew this was happening one hundred percent. But it was it was still a great time. Dude, yeah, Jakey yeah, and honestly the other team were great sports. I didn't get to see their reactions till after. We had Tucker falling out of his chair and shit when he's getting knifed by Jordan. Like Arrow was having a good time. Trata's family was literally watching him while he's playing a show match he's never played on land. And it was not going well, but Trata still had a great time. You know, it it was good. Yeah, it was good vibes all around.
speaker-2: I think the other thing, you know, it's it's kind of a positive and a negative is the catering. It was it was really good for the event now you know, but the one th I was really sad. Microwave
speaker-0: You've hung out with me too long that you just
speaker-2: Yeah, the microwave testitos or whatever they're called, they didn't have those. Testitos. I wanted those really bad and they didn't have them. But they did have good soup apparently, so that's good.
speaker-1: I got him at Costco, brother, you can get anywhere.
speaker-0: cannot I still cannot believe Dinko living in Texas comes to the event goes Man you had those fine Mexican tequita that
speaker-2: The green sauce. Ugh. So good.
speaker-1: I'll be honest though, I thought the same thing when I was in college and I had them for the first time. I was like this is some camera.
speaker-0: Great. I just wouldn't ever out loud.
speaker-1: No, not anymore.
speaker-0: Like that just wouldn't that carry the vlog though, so when we got to eat, you know, you you know back to
speaker-2: Media Day.
speaker-0: the You're like, I love Media Day over there, it's great.
speaker-2: I'll do every media day. I wish a media day was like that for you as well.
speaker-0: I guess to to wrap it up though on like a serious note, what did you guys think about the competition itself? Like did you guys we'll talk like did you guys like having the South American teams there? Did you guys feel like we got to see maybe the best team in North America right now? What did you guys feel about like let's just let's kind of stick to the bigger teams here? Like how did you feel about eighty energy liquid wildcard? You know what I mean? I feel like those four were kind of the the top Disappointed. Get Dendele in there, right? Get Dendele. I like but going in, that's what those were the teams I was kind of like, this it what how is this gonna shake up? Like what g kind of give me the rundown. What are you guys feeling about those teams?
speaker-2: Yeah, I think coming into the event we all agreed Team Liquid were the absolute favorites, so it was really good to see them deliver and be able to perform as as dominant.
speaker-0: I didn't fully agree with that, but yeah.
speaker-1: I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure I've we've had the argument on this podcast of me saying Liquid's still the best North American team and you guys.
speaker-2: Both of us on that on that board, Jason.
speaker-1: sure, sure, yeah. Take it away.
speaker-0: Go ahead.
speaker-2: but team liquid come in, they look they look really strong, they handle business against everybody. So I think it's it's a really good positive note to leave the event with that you do have like a team that you can go out there and root for in the international stage. You know, as much as you've been wanting that to be someone like M80 or maybe NRG sawing glimpses of it at the previous event before FML, they beat
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah
speaker-2: and then did nothing and then bombed out of this tournament as well. So it's crazy. It was It was strange to see NRG look so weak as the tournament went on. I think that was disappointing. and then eighty, I mean, we talked about it, the fact their travel schedule was just insane. We brought it up yesterday at Pro League as well, because they played Spirit last night in the last day of the groups. They did have a crazy travel schedule coming in late. You could see they looked a bit rough against Dendelay in that game they played. So for that, I would say eighty again, I would say I almost say rather rather disappointing for eighty coming coming into the event. but for the most part, I think the big positive is just team liquid is good and I think having the two South American squads there, at least one of them delivered, Dendele kind of had someone to root against, I think. That was the that was the fun part. Like,
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: we can't surprise you can't have a South American team come and win the NA event, right? So I think they kind of made sort of created a heel for the event and and I think people got more behind the American teams, even more so.
speaker-1: I wish Dendelay had done better, to be honest with you. I was I was kinda pumped. I wanted to actually see them kinda challenged towards the end. I didn't I didn't I didn't I don't did I don't think we casted many of their games. I think they were mostly on the Beast Rapids. No
speaker-0: The comeback Man to watch, bro. Player
speaker-1: That's right.
speaker-0: to watch. Player to watch. Come on now. Yeah, we gotta you watch a lot of CS, it's okay.
speaker-1: The event played out pretty much the way I thought it would. Liquid is the best team by by a country mile, disappointing performance from NRG, disappointing performance from eighty, disappointing performance f well actually probably d I can't say that about Wildcard. I think Wildcard was fine considering the situation, the circumstances they were in, but I feel like Yeah, a little bit probably.
speaker-2: Wildcard really overperformed, I think, compared to what I actually
speaker-1: But I mean the disappointment of the other two is I don't know. it's funny to call it disappointment, it's kinda just par for the course, isn't it?
speaker-0: Well, I think the way in which energy kind of lost was the disappointing part. Like the eye test of the game didn't look great. And then we throw in the fact that Dapps wasn't there. Like Dapps didn't even travel with him. He was so sick. And I feel like those games got close and started to get away from energy and it felt like Coach. Nitro, you know, we keep we we keep talking about like Nitro should is like best IGL. And I do think he's a great captain. Like I do but you do need like another voice in those scenarios. You just need somebody to break up the the the continuous stream of like one voice trying to be the driving force all the time. And I just think that that's kind of what felt bad is like it felt like energy had a little bit of momentum. They come to my event, Daps is incredibly sick. They kind of have these tougher games for whatever reason. You know, they're they're having these games where they go deeper and then they just kind of fall flat. And then you look back behind them, you're like, well shit, Daps isn't there. Is that because of Daps? And then they come to what are they what was it Pro League or was it a different event?
speaker-2: it was Star Series that they they were it was Star Series just before yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. And then yeah, so you're just like, I don't know, I feel like it's that part was disappointing. I I I'm I am glad that Liquid handled business. because it's been a long time since I felt like they've done that as well. So
speaker-1: They look good doing it as well. They had like a good access to also. Like i it's hard to kind of extrapolate Yeah, Jorko Jorko did a great job of endearing himself to the American crowd. but yeah, I don't know. It was good seeing them play so so well and it's hard to kind of extrapolate that performance to like make it make a guess on how it's gonna they're gonna look internationally. We'll find out very, very soon. But at least for the moment, like all you could ask of them right now is come in and step in and dominate the events you shouldn't, especially against remo regional competition. I look at that liquid lineup and I say, If you're not fucking destroying every NA team, you're doing something wrong. And I was glad to see them step into the event and destroy every NA team. And now I can actually be intrigued and interested and have positives to talk about them on the international stage when they come to the European events and play against the European teams. Yeah. and we'll just see what they got.
speaker-2: Here in Alige at the end, you know, when he won the trophy, like talking about how I've always been on the best NA team, you know, and and now I have someone to root for. I'm still the best I'm still we're still the best NA team, you know. So I think it was cool to see Alige have a little of confidence after the event. What's crazy is when we were doing that trophy lift and we think back to it's like, Holy, that's how long it's been since Team Liquid won a trophy. Twenty nineteen Chicago, that is such a long time ago. of any level. And and to to hear a team liquid.
speaker-0: You're welcome Liquid. I think there's an online one in there somewhere.
speaker-1: They did. They won they won the first event after they removed me as a coach.
speaker-2: Was it online, Jason?
speaker-0: W move.
speaker-1: Yeah, I know, right? I
speaker-0: No, I think it was online, Jason.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: 'Cause that would be we we discussed this on the stream the other day. You had didn't go to a single like in person event, it would be so BM to kick you just before the in person event, Chase. And I can't I can't believe they they would do that.
speaker-1: It it might have been, I don't remember. But I mean I I'd be look, I'm never gonna argue that I think they made the right call and I I don't think I was particularly great as a coach at that at that period, whether it was me or the team, I think there's a lot of shit going on in in my personal life for sure, but it wasn't doing a great job turning the ship around. So whatever the reason was, I don't I'm not gonna sit here and blame for it. But yeah, I d I don't know. Would have been nice to go to an event, but not not Liquid's fault, not anyone's fault really.
speaker-0: So really I should Liquid, you can thank me later for putting on this event. Also to toot my own horn twice. Yeah. I just feel like that's why the event's so nice. When was the last time you just get like an NA event? Like like that's like you what I mean? Like Liquid wasn't at the first one, so it kind of didn't have this feeling that we had all I mean, they weren't I think at the time my first one they didn't have mobs yet either. So they weren't even an NA team. I couldn't even invite them. and then I think, right? Or was that is that
speaker-1: Yeah, they were they had a European roster at that point.
speaker-0: Is that they that's they s they traded to get into Cologne. Everybody loved that move, smile. for nerds.
speaker-2: Hey, you know what? Looking back, that's that's not an egregious move at all considering what's happened.
speaker-0: It wasn't then either. It was just the timing of it, right? Like it's it it nothing like it was everybody knew
speaker-1: That was a very defensible counter strike move. That was a very defensible move for a counter strike perspective.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: As the blue player. No, but I just I feel like I don't know. We haven't had an event where like before, like with pro leagues and other stuff, you'd have these regional sides of pro league where you know you kind of would have a team emerge out of it. And it was usually a North American team would emerge out of the North American pro league, even though back then it was kind of NA rest of world, right? Which was fun. And I feel like that was the nice part about this event is having Liquid there gave it the validity of like who is the bet who's gonna be the best North American team right now. And we haven't had that as a North American community for a while. Like we have some online events where some of the teams are there, some of the teams aren't. And you never get to see all of like you never we have not got to see Liquid Energy M80 wild card. Basically all play versus each other in a tournament that kind of matters. And it and it happened domestically. Yeah, and I I think that like what you were touching on earlier though, like liquid winning convincingly, is really good for them. But I feel like for as a fan, as somebody that's gonna co stream games and stuff like that, it's really nice to be able to at least talk about, even if they lose or look like shit, it's nice to talk about like this is the best North American team right now. You know what I mean? Like you know which one is the best, at least temporarily, until you go around. And we've never we have not had that s like literally probably since the last time like pre COVID, like twenty nineteen. It's been like seven years since like these teams have played each other in any meaningful way where you can definitively say that's the best North American day. Otherwise it's just you're pissing into the wind of like, well, they look better at this international tournament and they got this one upset over here. We might go last place now, but at least I know which one is the best at going last place.
speaker-2: Yeah. I mean NRG are would be great if the tournament was like one BO3 because they they come to the event, they always win the first game two zero. Wow, get you excited, and then they will then they just lose everything. And it happened in Star Series, happened to FML too. Came to the event, won beat wildcard two zero, lost to wildcard the next day two zero. so yeah, I think it was cool to see like just a skirmish between all the American teams across a multiple day event, and you know, there wasn't a single time where Team Liquid. look like it was in danger for them. So yeah, I think it's good to finally settle the debate, the argument, like who is the best and and then we get to do it again in a few months time, hopefully. That would be cool.
speaker-1: It's a it's a it's a credit to to you for throwing the event, but I think it's also a huge credit over to the VRS that that teams are now seeing these more regional competitions as as valuable in another sense, right? Like the reason why we're not seeing any of these teams for years play against each other in North America is because you know, the top three teams all say there's no fucking point in us doing events in this region. Like there's no value in it for us. So they go to Europe and they go to spend their time boot camping. Yeah. And now now that it makes more s now that it makes more sense for them to be able to come back and actually kick some ass in the region, gain some VRS points, increase their standing on a lower level of competition, you can take an event off and come back and do that and still be within the European circuit if you're getting the invite. So I think it's another example I think of of the VRS system that Valva brought in to be really, really effective in hitting in hitting that particular part of its goals. You know what I mean?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it helps build the fans as well. Like I feel like the connection between Liquid and the fan base in North America is dog shit. And
speaker-1: But it it was dead. It was it was dead there.
speaker-0: and honestly, I still think it is pretty shit. Like I don't think like one event win at my event or something just man Welcome back, Liquid. my god. But I think that helps. Also, Liquid, send some fucking merch next time to my fucking event or I will slap the shit out of you. I won't do that at all. I actually probably look at my feet when we Talk in person, but like please send me merch, like so I can sell it on your behalf. Just put a box there. I'm gonna just take it the smallest fee so that way my guy literally doesn't get fucking owned. And then you get to sell and make money and have fans. Because M80s chance started to sound a whole hell of a lot louder than the liquid ones in that building. And I would literally just attribute it to the fact they are the only team sending merch. Like I I know that might seem like a bit One sided or like one dimensional take on that one, but god damn it, sounds some merch. So
speaker-2: Especially when Liquid has such good merch, right? Like I wonder if that I wonder if it is some sort of corporate thing though, where Liquid is such a big organization, it's very easy for a team like A D Alright, let's make the decision. We're sending the we're sending our merch to Flomland where it's like Liquid might be waiting for someone to sign off.
speaker-0: In California, just drive it over like
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Steve was there. Their fucking CEO was literally there. Like he wanted to come check it out. Like, what do we like? come you can bring a box of merch. Like just bring a box of jerseys called a day. You know what I mean? Drop it off. Like you guys won't even notice it, and you just created a bunch of fans, you know? Like that. I mean, even just
speaker-2: Image, like any pictures that come out, the footage of the stream. It's like it's all A D flags, A D jerseys, like you know, and it comes back to one of the points we had in an interview with some of the players up there. We were talking like how much standing is there for you to want to be able to call yourself the best team in North America? And he's like, Yeah, for the for the players it's certainly a factor, but also for the organizations, it's really important to be branded as, you know, the best in America. Obviously, you want to s have the biggest fan base there too, and like just marketing side of things, you know, if you're at an event where everyone's wearing your jerseys, it's just I mean it's a it's a great pro a pr you know, great image you can throw out there and advertise your organization for.
speaker-0: Yeah. But enough glazing me. We'll move on from F L. I think that's that's a good one. We got through every Yeah. Yeah that's what I'm saying.
speaker-2: I got shouted at in the post production meeting for glazing you, so
speaker-0: Did you actually?
speaker-2: Yeah, Ed told me to shut
speaker-0: yeah, that's right, I remember. Yeah, there was yeah, you did deserve it though. You you you're piped down, buddy. No anyway. A little too big for your brick.
speaker-2: My brushes are pretty big though, Jason.
speaker-0: They are. Especially the more he gulfs. The all right, all right, all right, lock it, lock it. So it's something that I'm sure Jason, who's done fifteen podcasts, hasn't talked about enough. And since he bridged it this way with VRS, well how do you guys feel about the Sashi? How do you guys feel about BCG? Gimme gimme the do you guys think well first off, W Hundan, what a great guy. I I'd like to leave.
speaker-2: He's just involved in every fucking scandal, isn't
speaker-0: If you think about it, like he he actually, if you think about it this in a different way, Dinko, he really is the greatest person in Counter Strike because he is the reason why we found the coach bug. Granted, he didn't tell
speaker-1: Anyone?
speaker-0: tell anyone. But he also is the one that now abused VRS to the point where they had to do something about it, where they should have closed this after what Liquid did. Let's all just I I I think that was that was the moment where I don't think anybody saw what Liquid did, even if we thought it was a good trade. And everybody's like, nobody nobody was like, Yeah, this isn't gonna open up Pandora's box. Like we all knew kind of what was lingering there. And that I I kind of get mad at Valve actually for that one, which is like I think they personally my take is like they got this situation right. I think they but the problem was created by them. And I don't just mean by having the loophole to begin with, that was used by like Liquid and some of the others in the previous sale.
speaker-1: Closing it in the two years they have the chance.
speaker-0: Yes, exactly. Like clearly after what happened before Cologne, everybody knew what is now possible. As soon as soon as BCG got Mazino, everybody's cracking jokes. They're just gonna go to Asia if they can't make it, they're just gonna do it. And like that's exactly what they did. It's not that and I always feel like I'm dunking on ASAP as a player when I mention this, but BCG for the amount of money that they have could have. Sign any European player. They were not signing ASAP in a different scenario. And that's not to to hate on him, but that is very clearly why they did it. And there's nothing wrong with that, because that was an established loophole that Valve left open. They literally saw it and they're like, Yeah, that's fair game. And it was BCG the most egregious version of this? No, it wasn't. So, like, that's why it's like they basically did what was previously done in the last major cycle, and then you left it open, didn't close it. And then Hyden came along, our Counter Strike Savior, and did whatever the fuck's in the same set. Fuck it. Sorry, I'll stop. I'll stop. I was just trying to I actually didn't think I'd get Dinko revved up on that one. I was hoping to get Jason a little bit more now.
speaker-1: No, like you said, I've already I've already had this conversation for
speaker-0: Yeah, mo most is broken as a human. Yeah, I think they got I think they got this situation right, but I kinda get mad because it it was only left there because they they saw it and were like, nah, nothing bad will happen. But as soon like the whole community knew as soon as PCG got Mazinho, like we like the it was a joke, but it was the truth, right? Like that's why it was funny. Is We all knew if if push came to shove when Europe when Europe was completely out of reach, which it was, they're gonna drop electronic. And they did. Like i i that's a they did exactly what everybody expected them.
speaker-2: I think it's the right move to drop electronics.
speaker-0: it was. But like they also would have signed a European player. Like you're gonna tell me right now they couldn't have just like thrown a bag of some you know what I mean? Like you now have Mizinho, you have Senzu, you have Simple. You're gonna tell me right now BCG just doesn't have like the the pull to get one more player, right? And just basically Falcons it where you have like the you know, you can you're now in that position, at least in my mind, where You have the players that are there to attract other players. You have enough of them. Like, I don't think actually, because of where Simple left off in the game, he couldn't have that same effect that Nico did, I think. And he didn't have that relationship like with like where Nico can bring modesty from G2. but now that you have Senzu and Mazinho there, people that like would want to join that team, like because they know the talent that's there, plus the salary that you're gonna get with that. Without this loophole they would have gone to you. Like I I I refuse to believe any other scenario like
speaker-2: I I think they they write up this big message, this big appeal, saying that they've gone for the one of the most promising players in the Asian and Oceanic region. And you know, ASAP is that. You know, he is one of the standout players in the region or
speaker-0: Look good when when I've seen his games. Like it's just a good thing. Yeah.
speaker-2: He he's definitely talented. It j they just never would have gotten him if it wasn't for this scenario. Then there is obviously two ways of looking at it. You can find the positive and like look at the more like optimistic worldview and be the VRS has led to players like ASAP getting opportunities when the other w otherwise wouldn't and it's his time to prove himself. But you
speaker-1: Only if they're real opportunities and not like a three month opportunity.
speaker-2: They they have now shot themselves in the foot. They do have to keep him for the next major cycle. Like they've got to do it just with the imaging of everything.
speaker-1: They don't have to.
speaker-0: They don't have to make it.
speaker-2: I guess you're right. They could just be scumbags. But I guess the other side of things for Sashi, though, it's like Dexter came out and made that tweet where he was like, Yeah, they offered me the same. The the deal is they just kick you after the major. And it's like that is just bullshit, man. Like the fact that you're gonna try and do that is just you're ripping up a team in Australia. You're giving these players two month contract just to use them to get into the major
speaker-1: Didn't they like change it players' nationality from like Danish to Vietnamese or something?
speaker-2: So I read I've read conflicting re reports about that though. Like the player is he was Annalele. He's like he's always been Vietnamese, but he's just been he's been on like a residence visa or something in Denmark. He's not actually Danish. he was just playing out of Denmark, so I don't I don't know like that's what people are saying, like he's he's actually
speaker-0: I'm just gonna have to learn way too much about this shit as a CS person. It kinda pisses me off. Anyway, continue. Maybe
speaker-1: You don't have to.
speaker-2: But the end of it.
speaker-0: the takes would be better actually.
speaker-2: The short of it is it's a shitty thing to do because Sashi are not good enough to qualify for a major. You've gone out, you've got enough points because you're playing in European tournaments. You're taking your VRS points from Europe, you're bringing them to Asia, and you're fucking over the Asian teams who already are in a position to try and qualify for the major and ruining the dreams of like five to six other people in the team below you in the ranking. So I think it's absolutely bullshit and should not be allowed. And I think Valve. you know, the change comes through. It would have probably as much as it would have sucked, you know, in you know, there's always as a fan of CS, I guess you want to see simple at the major, but also you want to see simple fucking qualify for the major, not just get through the back door, right? You don't want to see the greatest player of all time have to use the back door to try and get into the major. I mean, it'll still be entertaining when he's there or whatever and it's gonna draw eyeballs and be good for the product. But in general, it's like from a purist standpoint, You want to see Simple actually qualify for it. You want to see these legendary players qualify for the the major. You know, two of the players at BC Game were in the major final in Austin. You know, you have Magisku's on that Astralis team, and Simple is the greatest player of all time. Like, come on. If they can't qualif if they have to go through the Asian back door, it's absolutely insane. So I just think it's just unfair the fact that you're going to abuse the system, the VRS system. It is there to abuse, apparently. Luckily, Valve made that change now. but it is, it was a little strange to see BC game. get let off for it. but they have to they have to commit to ASAP now for a for a bit, otherwise, I mean, you're just gonna have to say this is an absolute scumbag maneuver.
speaker-0: Do you think Valve made say something like that they gotta stay in I mean, I I I don't like we all know kind of I I don't know, I don't see Valve doing that, but I just was curious if you think there's maybe a a w a scenario where they're like, listen, you gotta stay for the Asia region, the next one?
speaker-1: Maybe, but I'd be surprised 'cause Valve doesn't usually like getting their hands that dirty and that involved.
speaker-0: Well I know, but they got into all of this, which was kind of surprising.
speaker-1: So their hand was kind of force in this situation, right? So like you probably had a lot of stakeholders in the Asian region fucking reaching out, like whether it's TOs, whether it's teams, whether it's people investing in the region, you probably had a lot of a lot of people raising hell in the emails to
speaker-0: Everybody. No probably Europeans too, like wondering what the fuck is
speaker-1: Yeah, when I mean when Nico rolls out of bed and makes a fucking issue of it, you know, he he he doesn't speak up too much on these things either. So I mean even when he's doing it, you know it's a huge problem. Yeah, I mean they handled it in the most valve way possible, which is exactly how they have done everything, which is just like here's the fucking hammer that we're gonna drop in everyone's lap and we don't give a fuck if it's an inconvenient timing, but if you guys are gonna make us get involved, we're just gonna fucking handle this shit right now. I think the biggest thing I hate about it is like it forces us to make like a judgment call on on a situation between BCG and Sashi, right? 'Cause I feel like BCG's again, that roster move, well, I agree. I don't think they would ever be looking at ASAP in like a in a different in a different scenario. I think it's more defensible as a counter strike move that that it that it's a that it's an actual roster change that they would want to do. But that's like a hard thing to fucking argue when you're just kind of taking people out of the major. So I don't know. I'm I'm really I'm really pretty biased in this scenario 'cause I've tried to like kinda think it through and I I can't get past I don't give a fuck fuck Hundan.
speaker-0: Yeah. Def valid. No that yeah.
speaker-1: Like I can't I can't get past that. Like fuck it.
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: If you if you are if you want to be part of the counter strike scene and you want to be a player in the counter strike scene, a player, a team owner, a tea get the fuck away from Hamden. There's nothing good that can come from it. Like I don't know like I don't I don't know what else to say. So for me, I'm like I hate the fact that now these players on Sashi who have worked hard and I don't maybe they were in on it, maybe it's not even their fucking decision of how this all played out on the side. Maybe that is organized but I d I don't know. So like I hate that potentially their opportunity is ruined. I hate that they've done this to take away opportunity from teams in the Asian region who have been competing. But at the end of the day, when your coach is like the most notorious cheater in CSGO, has already shown he's got a terrible way of dealing like t manipulating players to try and get out of the cheating scandal in the first place, now involved in this scandal, what are we still doing associating with him? Stop.
speaker-0: Can we just be honest though? Look at his HL TV picture. Does it not give you Disney villain vibes? Like I'm telling you right now.
speaker-2: He's got that.
speaker-1: Fucking does.
speaker-2: I'm going to steal the Asian spots from No, I mean it's this feels like it, man. It's like it's just another controversial I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it was a controversial.
speaker-0: Can we put the whole class because every fucking organization has worked with him after all of that shit? Like can we What's going
speaker-1: I mean it's
speaker-0: on, Denmark? What the fuck y'all doing? What the hell is this?
speaker-1: Actually I forgot about that. Didn't you have that whole like leaking the strat book to astrologist thing as well?
speaker-0: Don't forget don't forget Danish Nico. Like don't forget the fucking coach mug, don't forget stealing strats, this motherfucker's trying to steal spots. Like what the hell are we doing at Denmark, bro? You guys got boarding schools that counterstruck. Get the fuck get this shit out of here. Like figure this out. You guys
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: bro is a stain over there. Like fucking handle it.
speaker-2: Yeah. Well you know what? It is kind of crazy to know like, there's a controversy, Valva getting involved. Hundan's the coach of the team makes complete sense. Like I was like, here we go. I don't watch sashy games, not gonna lie. So that was pretty not shocking, but just kind of morbidly funny, I suppose. I think the other side of things is like the the BC game one, it is clear like what they've done, they're playing the system. Right. But it isn't such an abuse of the system as what Sashi I mean it is. It is. It certainly is. But but I think when you add the nuance and you look at it, it's like, okay, they already had two Asian players on the team, right? Adding one Asian player to the team is good. Right? In terms of compared to Sashi, where it's like We have now changed the region of the player on our team to his actual nationality, and we are going to go sign these two Australian players. We're not even hiring three new Asian players that are applying in the Asian region. We're just taking two over for a two month contract. We're gonna fire after this, gonna get our sticker money, gonna give us some of that sticker.
speaker-0: Literally tweeted on two.
speaker-2: And it's like just get they they've ruined I'm glad I'm so glad Valve did
speaker-0: Literally in the tweet they were like, We're gonna try this out for a bit or like a month. Like it was I know, it forced Valve's hand, but like it was crazy
speaker-1: I wish Valve would have said absolutely. Yeah, you have zero VRS. Good luck in the next three weeks. I wish that's what I thought I was gonna wake up to Valve saying today, to be honest with you. I didn't think they would get an exception.
speaker-2: I would love
speaker-0: no, I was talking about Sashi. I was talking about Sashi.
speaker-1: sorry, I thought you were on the big street. Yeah no.
speaker-2: I I think we should just as a I think I don't think anybody would care. can we just like permaban Hundan from involvement in majors? I mean that would just be good.
speaker-0: That was
speaker-2: Any team with Hundred involved can't get VRS points. Ineligible RNA.
speaker-0: Head of C S two, Hyundan, and I was like, my fucking god.
speaker-1: Maybe change the fucking heading.
speaker-0: Yeah, was like, holy f I was this all makes sense now. Now we're in the yeah, I understand now. No, but I you know, the the nuance the and we love some nuance around here with BCG is it never started that way. We always knew it could be a possibility, and I think that's the biggest reason why. Like it doesn't I think that's why, at least for me, I f the biggest reason why is they didn't start with the intention of trying to go to Asia. I just think they got Senzu. And then when they were able to get Mazinho, then it's like, okay, well, that's an option now, right? Like, but I they clearly didn't have like maybe that was their plan all along, maybe they thought they get but we don't really know that. Outside looking in though, it started with just one player. And it's a really fucking good Asian player. It's not like they went and just got a you know, some guy for like like like somebody in Australia for a bit. No, you got like basically one of the best riflers in the world on your team. And then you got went and got one of the best anchors in the world, and he's also Asian and there were teammates. And now you have the option, right? And I just think that's such a big distinction of what happened there.
speaker-2: Different. I mean, they are doing the same thing, just not as egregiously. And b both are bad. Both are
speaker-0: It shouldn't ha but and once again, fuck you Valve, for like seeing this and being sitting on your hands a little bit because you did see it and you were like, Yeah, nothing bad'll happen there, but we all knew. We all knew. It didn't even last one fucking major.
speaker-2: Let's not act like he
speaker-0: shout out W Hundred man, how is it?
speaker-2: also I do want to say, like I have to also be objectively fair. Like he can't be the you know he wasn't the only one that would make this decision. There's more people involved. He's just always
speaker-0: I the CEO from Sashi did not do himself any fucking favors with that interview pro He's like, What's the problem? I just want to get his that's the goal. Get into the major. Don't care. Like this is what we're doing. All right,
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: all right. That's enough. That's you guys have probably talked about that at nauseum at at different times. We can leave it there. Let's let's get into what you guys have been up to. Low little pro league, man. yeah.
speaker-2: I've been out to a lot of a lot of things already.
speaker-0: Yeah, let's yeah, well I mean might as well get into it a little bit. There's actually been some fun stuff this pro league, I feel like. That's
speaker-2: Were you watching the MMD game, Spirit game last night?
speaker-0: Fuck. Dude, Dinko, you literally called it by the way. did anybody send you the clip? No, no, like when you mention me complaining about spams, but I was celebrating when Lake did the spam. I don't know, Chris, do you have it? Yeah. He might have it. The that was it. I was like, this motherfucker's watching my stream. You streamed me like a hundred percent. That is exactly what I was doing.
speaker-2: I had that feeling like instead I was like, he's gonna love this spam. he's gonna love this spam.
speaker-0: I did love that. I even said I was like, you know, fuck the spams, but man, I love it right now and then you're like, you know, if Lom's watching this, he probably loves this one right now.
speaker-2: That's a good that's actually good content. That's good content, right.
speaker-1: Do you guys wanna talk about how how how A D played the w one V threes on America's map? You guys wanna discuss that? Both
speaker-0: shut up, Jason.
speaker-1: of Both of them. I let's we can go over the first one if you want.
speaker-0: Get better at casting. It was a one V four, idiot. sorry.
speaker-2: It was even worse. Swisher had an absolute nightmare.
speaker-0: That was our map, god damn it, that was it, they stole it from us
speaker-2: But Jason, did they not play their best counter strike on cash?
speaker-0: They look like a completely different team on Cash compared to Dust Two.
speaker-1: I I don't want to make that judgment call, they look like ass.
speaker-2: Ten rounds, Jason. Ten whole rounds, double figures. Four rounds more than that does two.
speaker-1: I don't care how many rounds you get, if you lose two or if you lose a one V three and a one V four,
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-1: it doesn't matter.
speaker-0: The eye test was so bad too. It's not like a it wasn't like they're just kinda missing, Lake goes too far out the door, s Slack's gonna shoot him once in the toe, and Magic's just can't believe that they just can't shoot him. Like and that was literally his own face.
speaker-2: Really less like I'll even break my mouse for you guys.
speaker-0: I dude, it like the fact that he won V four and he like didn't have any real like he's just like what?
speaker-1: I mean it was so it was so clear in the way that game was being played. Like if you go if you go watch that back, the amount of ego and disrespect Spirit was playing with
speaker-2: Dog yelling.
speaker-1: was so unreasonable. Like watching some of the plays they were trying to force and make, it was just like they were playing FPL.
speaker-0: Well on Dust 2, yes. I think on Cash it did get real
speaker-1: They opened it up that way in cash. Yeah, they they did. They did a little bit. Yeah.
speaker-2: I think.
speaker-0: But I agree with you. The dusty one I was like mother of God. I was
speaker-1: Yeah, they didn't give a fuck.
speaker-0: Dog didn't pause once in lower one round and he just like was basically out mid through lower in like fifteen seconds.
speaker-2: Yeah, that I think Ale Alex highlighted that during the cast. He was like, Well, he's just sk skipping all his usual steps. He's just running to the spot he needs to be at 'cause he doesn't care. yeah, that that happened. It was cool. It was you know, it was kinda funny also just having Donk get up and yell across at them. that was
speaker-0: Shout out North America. We we bring out the best in people, you know? yeah, I think there you go. Chris linked it for you, Dinko. Din
speaker-2: Okay, I'll take a look at this and then
speaker-0: Dinko c streamstar me, Jason, when when Lake got the spam on cash, it was actually perfect. Not by the link. No, it's in this in this chat room, right? In the river side. Yeah, yeah,
speaker-2: Okay, okay.
speaker-0: yeah. But I don't know I I actually did like how MD played on cash, but yes, the one V three, one V four and the nature with the eye test was horrible. Like I'm not gonna
speaker-1: My only issue with the cash performance was like there's some cool things to pick from it and and I'm being a little bit harsh. I could I could speak positively because they did play better on cash, but I felt like when I was watching it, I couldn't shake the feeling that they were so like locked in on like a hardcore anti strat of team spirit that it's like hard to hard to like judge. Like I felt I felt like they had so many so many plans and moves and set up prepared just for the game, which is is not a criticism, obviously, but like that's not the cash game we're gonna see out of them more often than not. They came into that as qualification and said we're gonna just fucking Grind demos of spirits cash and be ready for everything, it felt.
speaker-2: Yeah. I mean it's not surprising. It's not surprising to see eighty lose the spirit on the final day at group C P so I don't think there's any breaking news there. I think for for eighty it was good that they got the win versus legacy. That's massive for their VRS points. you know, obviously the elephant in the room with legacy is the fact that art isn't there. So, you know, take your opportunity that was in front of you. and and Eddy did that, so made it to the final
speaker-0: it well too to be fair. That was like a I don't want to they they actually had a one v three I think in two of those maps as well. They they get one V three and I feel like more I don't know if it's 'cause I just watched the A D games, but I swear they have a quota to like lose one one v three per series at least. Maybe per month. Well I think that's the problem is I think they actually I think some of them are trying to I mean it's very clear that Lake is trying to remain confident to the point where it's fake. where like there was twice where in the both of those scenarios Lake basically overflanked. And whether not even just walking out the door. I mean like the next one with Shiro from Quad, you have two players still at truck, you don't have the time yet a main, and even if you do, you can't risk it. Like and Pikium I feel like you're trying to prove to yourself and that your teammates that like you're just confident and we're eighty and we're just gonna peek and like we're but it's just so clearly not cemented and in good decision making where you truly believe it because you would just wait until the guys come from truck. And I feel like so I feel like you have players like Lake who are trying to kind of like inject confidence into those situations with how they're playing, but in reality They're just making it worse. And then on the other side of it, I think the other one's so clearly like the Magic's one v four, you can see it. Lake fucks up on his, he he tries to do too much, gets caught in the middle of two thoughts, blows up the whole fucking moment, make turns it into now an actual scenario, dies, and then you can immediately tell that the highway players, both of them, like a fucking vice grip, just could not keep together. Like they were peeking together, but then they weren't like shooting well. Like they weren't actually giving themselves opportunities to take the fight versus magic. So like, shit, I don't want to be the one that dies here. my god. But like you're double peeking. Just fucking shoot him. And they dropped like two mags on a guy and did like ten damage. And then Slax like, Well, I guess I'm in a one v one now where I gotta shoot this guy who's supposed to be low and I don't know where he's at. And then you died. I feel like you can literally in that magics 1v4 you can see everything that's wrong with eighty in those scenarios and they're mental. Like that's like the hardest part. And why the I it's it looks bad, but then when you realize like what's happening in those rounds, it continuously happens on every single map in and manifests in the same exact way, is so painful because those are the moments where like as CS players and as people that watch the game, I think you guys would agree. You very rarely see teams break out of that. Like once they're in that those types of modes
speaker-1: That's that team needs permanent. That team needs rounds to change.
speaker-0: That's right. Yeah, exactly. And and the only way that and solution we found in the Counter Strike community, and it's why they happen so often compared to like other sports, I feel like, is a roster change. Because mentally we've never really seen teams break through that. You know? Once they once they're in that wall of like I mean honestly that was so long ago Jason, I don't really wanna I mean no, I like I actually just don't wanna like say some bullshit. Like I'm like maybe I just remember them taking a break, not necessarily that they were
speaker-1: The the Danish lineups like back in early like CSGO were always getting like second, third place. They'd always have Yeah,
speaker-0: you mean like that? Okay.
speaker-1: and then the and then they broke through it eventually, right?
speaker-0: Okay, so you just compared eighty to the team that eventually became one of the most winning rosters.
speaker-1: I just gave you an example of when a team broke through the fucking difficulty.
speaker-0: Yeah. Is that an alfogato, by the way, Jason? Do you know if you put on top of it?
speaker-1: No
speaker-0: I don't know why, I just some sip that I just I just alright, my god.
speaker-1: I it's actually whiskey, to be fair, but
speaker-0: shit. That that that actually makes way more sense for you. Sorry, I just got completely derailed but I saw
speaker-1: There's a little there's a little Afogato inside joke that Flam just really fucking tickles his button.
speaker-0: Yeah yeah, Jason explained to an Italian person at an Italian restaurant that owns the Italian restaurant what an alpha gotta was. He mansplained it. It was fantastic, huh?
speaker-1: I just wanted to make sure where I come from, not everyone knows where an alfogato is, so I I just I just said, Can I just get some ice cream with a shot of espresso on top? That's it. I didn't explain it. I just said can I get
speaker-0: He was having conversations. He was drinking wine. He's like, nah, man, like do you have
speaker-1: I have
speaker-0: Ken
speaker-2: Excuse the espresso ice cream, girlato. no, it was such a good time. That was a good good meal as well. Thank you, Flawn. I that would be my main takeaway is the food was very good from FML.
speaker-1: Or even sitting down Flaming, the dog's still going crazy.
speaker-2: Yeah,
speaker-1: He needs he needs us to feel time.
speaker-2: I'm gonna I'm gonna s I'm gonna drift us away from North American Counter Strike. I think we've had enough of that now, Jason.
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-2: You have you had enough of North American Counter Strike? You had your
speaker-1: I've been in it for twenty five years, dude. I'm I'm good.
speaker-2: So we move on to a lot more positive thing. Let's talk about Navi.
speaker-1: Fuck, so I I actually I'll take it one step further. I think they looked good.
speaker-2: Yeah, I I think they did look good. And and you know what? The the thing about Navi is I feel like they've had two runs now with the ESL Swiss system back to back. I just feel like it's brutal. Cologne was the obviously the first time out. The IM Cologne Major they come in after winning Atlanta. And we have a lot of you know positive ex expectations about Navi. They kind of figured it out, they're looking good. Yeah, they're going to Cologne and they got up pretty early. It's the exact same run as they had here at at EPL. It which is they get off to start
speaker-1: Eliminated right before the in the playoff call.
speaker-2: then they then they play Falcons in like one of the most important games towards the end of the see the Swiss system. And they they have to play all the difficult teams on the way and then they just about miss out on some game they they should have won in the final match.
speaker-1: It's like it's like the Navi thing is like you know the the hidden fucking angle between this what their whole like nosedive and the VRS standings and some of this like poor poor performances in terms of where they're placing at events is like they're losing to just the best teams in the world. They had the upset over or they got beat by NRG, which is the big blemish and the big lucky stain on that kind of record. But for the most part, they're losing to like the other top teams in the world. Here again, it's Falcons and Vitality. And you point out it, and like obviously Two two game to qualify to the playoffs against Paravision. That's a game you have to fucking win. Like there's no way to get around that. But I don't think that's any kind of like crazy, egregious loss that's like this team does actually fucking
speaker-0: Navi.
speaker-2: Yeah, and it's the exact same thing at Cologne too, right? I'll just talk about their Cologne run. They start, they they play Spirit, they lose to Spirit 2-0. Fair enough. They beat Legacy 2-0. They beat Mongols 2-1. They lose to Falcons 2-1, and then they have one last chance to try and qualify into the next stage of the major, and they lose to G2 2 1. So
speaker-1: It's unpious.
speaker-2: it's the same scenario where it's like, yes, should Navi beat G2? Probably. But also It's an understandable loss. Like it's not one that's like shocking out of this world and all the realms of possibility, right? Same thing here with it this I think this Paravision
speaker-0: Favorite team.
speaker-2: is a little different. I th I feel like they definitely should have got the win here, but this is a Paravision team that are fired up. They always are have been a difficult team for so many
speaker-1: Also also it's like it came down to a last second fucking diffuse. Which every time.
speaker-2: Eleven eleven. Who hasn't lost a game to Jane with the last second of use? It feels like that happens to everybody. So
speaker-0: Those are the those are the real Jam games right there. The the Para Vision special, the James special, which is like you're always right there. You get to bring it all the way back, and then for whatever reason, those last few rounds just feel like the major versus James. If the if you're if you let them get in position where they can drag out the game like that, I feel like whatever it is, it's like he's got like one little last card that he's been like waiting to play. Or like he he just knows how to like tip it slightly too. It's not even like you know We stacked like a perfect bomb site. Sometimes it is, but I I don't know. They just have like crazy resilience in those. And I think what I think of like I I know I had to step away for a moment, but Navi did look better this event. It was kind of but That was our sentiment still disappointing. I mean it's Navi, right? Like what the fuck are we doing at this point? You know. But I I feel like Navi is even when if Blade you know, I keep referencing the Blade interview where he's like, Yeah, we look to try to get players and you know, it's rumored they try to get some of the foot players and they wouldn't go and That isn't really that one to me isn't really an indication of Navi. because I feel like they've that team's turned down a lot of offers from everybody and they've very clearly want to stick together. So that I think that isn't a Navi isn't good enough to get players like Foot. I think that's just a unique team.
speaker-1: That's also a high bar that Blade would set to get a player in as well. He's not just gonna pick up some fucking asshole just to make a roster change, you know?
speaker-0: Well, more the point I was gonna go with actually is more so I feel like it's more an indication of what's going on in Counter Strike where I feel like people are a little bit more reserved with their moves in general. This isn't the V C money flying around days, right? Like the the only orgs that are kind of wheeling and dealing like that are are you an online crypto casino? Do you have the Saudi infinite money glitch, right? Like those are the only two that are making moves like that, which is what we are kind of used to, honestly. Back in the day. But now I feel like everything is much more reserved. The VRS makes things very convoluted in terms of like what's your timing of when you're gonna make the player change because there's really like a l just
speaker-1: Although not an inner
speaker-0: interesting to think about. Well
speaker-1: I mean we didn't get into that side of the conversation. I don't I don't really want to at the moment just because yeah, I don't know the details all behind it well enough to have a conversation, but yeah, the idea that now you have to be within a region for three months to be able to get invites for that region. It feels like that isn't going to make like a transfer window necessarily, but it's gonna put like a a transfer window in. You know, I I don't know what to call it, but it feels like that is going to target like a certain stage in the calendar of like this is where it's safe to make a change. You know what I mean?
speaker-2: Yeah. The most optimal point of the year to to make transfers, you know, you you might say like there's an opening maybe like of a window of opportunity there, Jason, for to make transfers.
speaker-1: Yeah, some would say a window. Transfer window would say.
speaker-0: Transfer okay. Some some may allegedly say it.
speaker-1: No possibly.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: No, that was actually me that derailed it, so you chill over there, Flom. That one's on Yeah, that's fucking my shit.
speaker-2: Don't take the credit for the derailing. Jason's job.
speaker-0: Well, so I mean we could go back to Paravision though. I mean like what do you guys think about this so odd? Like liking it, disliking it, what are we thinking?
speaker-1: I got two things. I'm I'm I'm liking that they're having success. I love the fucking Hobbit return fucking arc. I'm not even gonna call it a redemption arc, but I fucking love watching Hobbit come back in. Did you watch I don't know, did you stick around and watch the post game interview after they won that with Deston and Hobbit? That like dude I I couldn't I couldn't look away. That was like the coolest interview 'cause you could like see the fucking emotion. Hobbit's there off I didn't I didn't think I was gonna be here. And Deston, like the day before, we had a segment where where we were like the producer
speaker-2: Sigment.
speaker-1: Yeah, we had a sponsor segment. So the rooster came and said there's no winners' interview. We have to be really quick on this and move on to the sponsor segment. And Deston was so fucking jacked up after the win, he just walked into the set on the couch and just sat down and started talking. And it was like and it's like obviously we're gonna do it, but like that's the kind of shit I love seeing is like those guys who have been invested in like watching like the emotion when they make like a big win or when that like moment hits them that they're like, Holy fuck, I did it. but Paravision's cool for a lot of reasons. There's that angle to it. you know I I think one of the big ones, the nice thing is in that Navi matchup specifically, they played like a really faster paced, aggressive, like poppier style of counter strike for a team that we usually classify as like slow and boring. And I thought that was very cool. That had that had to throw Navi for a fucking loop, you know what I mean? which I think is a really cool thing to be able to to bring in if you're Paravision. I was doing the podcast for ESL today, with some of the quarterfinal players. We had we had flames up on and he was he was mentioning we were we were asking about what it's like to play against Paravision and he was just like he was like, Bro, I get fucking bored. He was just telling us straight up inside the server. He's I get bored playing these guys. Like it's so slow, it's so quiet, there's nothing going on. I want the chaos. I want to get stuck into it. But so like there's there's this like unique thing that James has always had that's been like pretty consistent amongst the teams that he's led and played in, where Anders and I used to talk about this when we casted back in the day where it feels like James in Paravision are so good at getting even the best teams in the world, even the teams that we would say are better than them, they're so good at getting those teams to play Parvision Counter Strike. And I think that's the great strength that Jame and Paravision bring to the table is when they step into the server, no matter who they're up against, on some level you're dancing to their tune. You know, like that that team just knows how to make things uncomfortable inside the server for their opponents.
speaker-2: I mean if you look at you know, look at some of the games that we we've seen, especially I like watching their dust too, where they would just walk up mid silently, like a whole way up mid and just walk to the B bomb site and the B player isn't even looking. And it's like, how do you even deal with that? Like you you can't get a feel for them, you can't feel the timings, you can't consistently build like tell find tells. You know, we hear so much of this about Players now like waiting to find a tell. These top five teams make it really difficult to find tells. I think Paravision make do great at that. I mean, you could see so many teams just feel so uncomfortable, especially on CT side, of just when to cover what, when to rotate, when to look where. And they just suddenly there's two players who've walked the whole way up the B ramp, and you've got to deal with that on the fly and deal with the chaos that comes with it. So yeah, they play a very unique brand of counter-strike, and I think it's fascinating that James and Dastan have been able to do this with so many different players. obviously feeling like they needed to bring in a little bit more of the experience now to 'cause it it wasn't going as well as they would have liked with the younger players, but I think
speaker-1: You can also tell how much more comfortable James to your point now that he has those experienced players, where I think he's even said either in like vlogs or interviews, like he actually feels like he can call the kind of counter strike he wants to because he's got more faith in someone like Hobbit, someone like Flit to make the right decision in the situation. And he doesn't have to sit there and worry that they're gonna overpeak or not actually step into the action when it's their time. So yeah, they they seem they're hitting a really good level. And they're doing it at a very good time as the major's right around the corner. So Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting to see how high they can push their ceiling heading into Singapore and and see what that can do for them.
speaker-0: It is interesting that you guys mentioned like what they can do with the players because I agree with everything you guys said, but also at the same time it's I feel like it you can always make the point it's detrimental. And I feel like that's actually where Paravision's kind of struggled and why we've seen them fall off is I do think that I think the game has evolved, but I also feel like it is still such a unique team to play for that it requires the right people to be in that team to have success. And that's where I'm gonna segue it to one win and Belchinock absolutely looking fantastic for one win. And
speaker-1: Yeah, they were
speaker-0: Yeah, and I just feel like it's so nice. It's so nice to see
speaker-2: Call the one. The one. That's what we have to call them now for the playoffs. They'll called the one.
speaker-1: The one and we have the same tradition.
speaker-0: Well,
speaker-2: P vision. Yes, P vision and the one. That's the name one wouldn't have chosen for them to be called. The one.
speaker-0: So they're the one.
speaker-1: That's not gonna break my fucking brain at all.
speaker-0: The one and P vision, but I just I I don't know, man. I actually unfortunately I I really didn't feel all that great. so I missed the spirit one one or sorry, the one game. and but I I watched some of it after and I was catching like Belchernock lifts comfortable, Axile. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like they're all back, but it is really nice to see these players that I feel like we all know what they're capable of essentially playing the way we know they're capable of all on a team together now because if they can even maintain like some of this, they're gonna basically, in my mind, immediately be a top 20, top 15 team at all times. if they can maintain that individual level. And I just thought it was interesting to think about, you know, we're talking about how you need those veteran players now that it makes Jay more comfortable. But also like I think Paravision really failed some of those younger players and developing them. And I actually don't think that they did a a fantastic job in that sense. I think they did a good job of identifying talent, but the actual development of them I think is tough when you consider how unique and specific James plays the game. And that's where having those more experienced players can help. But it's so nice to see when those players can no longer be on that team have success outside of it. Because I think the natural assumption is is Especially when you have such a known IGL as James, people will kind of write you off after you don't succeed with them. Is even if it you you acknowledge that he's unique, it's like, well you played with Para Vision and Jame and they they plucked you out and you were you were supposed to be like, you know, ascending to the top and then you were cut. Like I feel like a lot of people kind of look down on you for the for a while. Like after that time. Like if the IGL is like known and established and kind of revered in like a way that like you are a good IGL, if you are removed from that team as a player and people still feel the same way about that IGL, it it it's like a stain almost or like a just it kind of carries with you a little bit. And to see public immediately do well, it it's it's quite nice.
speaker-1: I think that staying is with you publicly, but I think within within the the professional scene I don't think it would be there to that same extent. Although yes people have had different different different opinions on you already for for varying reasons and yeah in a lot of ways pro players are a lot more harsh than we are in public about their their colleagues and different teams. In different ways. but yeah, you're right. It's cool to see Bel Shannot go over there. I mean, whenever you have a team like that with James and have like such a disparity in terms of experience, the the whole question is how much patience does the veteran have? That's always the question in those teams, is how how long are they willing to wait? We when I when I when I joined Liquid as a coach, I could tell very much that like guys like Stewie and guys like Alige were kind of like a w in a win now mentality. We're like we You we aren't far removed from our grand slam run. We feel like we should be able to get back to the top relatively quickly and soon and and we wanna be winning now and we wanna be challenging for trophies now. But Grimm was very much in like a learning phase of like, Bro, I need some fucking time to figure this
speaker-0: And you're putting that pit.
speaker-1: Yeah. So like it when you have those when you have the expectations at such a different level, that's where things start to get a little bit sketchy 'cause the the the veterans get less forgiving in the mistakes you're making and less forgiving and and how you're not picking things up fast enough and more critical of what you're doing and and that's when things can spiral out of control and I'm I imagine that w that's exactly what happened in Paravision. Was it just got to a point where it was like They were good out of the gate. You know, they surprised us at at the major back in Budapest. They won the event earlier this year, but they couldn't follow up those results. And then those results become, well, we're not winning because you guys are making stupid, you know, like inexperienced mistakes. And the frustration that comes from watching seemingly minor mistakes devastate their gameplay, that's that's where you eventually get to the point where you're like, We need to bring in veterans. Like it's it'd you just hit the point where it's like I can't even think about the skill at the moment. I need to bring in someone who's not gonna make this stupid push.
speaker-2: I think we got to see it's the wheel starting to come off that team, Jason. We were casting in the PGL Bucharest last year, one of the one of the two Bucharests. And we got to see moments where they were meant to throw a smoke, but they would throw a flash on the ground, or like maybe the other way around. Like there was just weird moments that just seemed like they weren't comfortable. And then that was the event where Dashtank got on the couch right after and went on to rant about how like no one's safe. I wish I could kick them all right now. You know, and that obviously doesn't seem like the best environment. Very different couch dash down we've had here. No
speaker-1: But it's so easy from the outside to be critical of that when you don't see the frustration on the inside and you don't see the process on the inside. Like that's one of those things where it's like, Yeah, I agree, Desan shouldn't be saying that publicly but also he's a fucking human in a competitive environment and fucking frustrations rise up and shit comes out and should
speaker-2: I think also there's gotta be an element of frustration if you're dasting
speaker-0: Shit does come out from Dustin though. Just perfect
speaker-1: Yeah. I'm not saying I'm not saying this. But you know what? He's also he's also one of the best fucking coaches we have to talk to about the game and about the team and about the environment.
speaker-0: he loves that.
speaker-2: That's my like next point is just the fact that it I'd imagine it is very frustrating if you are Dastan and James and you've been to you've won a major, you've been to major finals, you know, you've had so many runs for such a long period of time, you know your system works, and you're talking to these young guys who are coming up and they're not buying into your system. You're like, guys, you have been given the opportunity to play on a team with us, like you you have to kind of buy into our system and and I'm sure that's a little bit frustrating.
speaker-1: I'll say I'll say that also I think there's a lot of fucking grace that the the veterans can come down to meet the rookies more at their level. Like they're the it's a two way street as well. And I think there's some experience struggle with that.
speaker-0: Yes, I I completely agree. I think a lot of there's a lot a lot of lack of leadership, honestly, in and esports in general. That's why I think the IGLs that we see be so so successful that ESL put together for that round table, you could see the difference and the understanding that it's not just about It's not just about calling. Like yeah, being a shot caller is great, but if you can't lead the people with you, it's it's a human aspect that you have to be able to manage as well. And if you can't do that then you won't be a a successful IGL at the highest level, not consistently anyway.
speaker-2: Look at the Kiyosuke and and Kerrigan combination. Like how much more comfortables Kiyosuke look since Kerrigan joined the team, you know, just like his emotions are much more balanced. He looks like he's having a great time in the survey. He's playing the sights with Karrigan on some maps too. So cool to see, you know, the he is a player that truly understands like how he needs to be around these young players, like what their limits are, what they need to have developed and and Karrigan's so good at that. So yeah, I think that's a good example of of the importance of the leadership and sort of being a people person in that side of things. And I think I think that moves me on to Falcons though. I think they actually look pretty good at times. And then there's times where Falcons just maybe it's have a couple more Falcons rounds out on the pile. But for the most part, I've really enjoyed watching them at this event.
speaker-0: The high test of Falcons to me reminds me of how they looked when they didn't win the major. W that's that's what this version of Falcons looked like to me. The
speaker-2: Like pre major.
speaker-0: The Yeah, like the we're gonna probably make it to the finals, but we we I don't know, they don't look Yeah, there's something about it. I don't know how to describe it. And it's not just like the Falcons moments. Like something about their game doesn't look cutthroat. I guess is maybe the best way to put it. Like there's aspects where I just see like I should not be seeing Tessus and Kerrigan basically have to get your team across the finish line. And that isn't Tessus should have got way more credit for their major run, just in general, I feel like. I feel like he was overlooked a lot. But
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I something feels still like I don't fully believe it from Falcons again, which feels insane to say. It feels so insane to be saying shit like that when they go three and one through groups. They had the major run that they had in the players that they have. I don't know what it is. I don't know. Yeah, it just doesn't look I think it might be some of the calling too is some of the calling looked really just on the nose, like less chaotic in a positive way. Like like I think where Falcons really started to shine is some of those rounds would dissolve a little bit and then but they looked very composed in those moments. Where right now they're not getting into those rounds as much. It feels like it's like this is the call, we're going to execute our plan and sometimes it goes really well and sometimes it goes really bad. And I'm not really seeing as much of that, I guess. I'm seeing clutches, but these mid round scenarios don't look as good and they're not look like they I don't know. It's like I don't know if they're Not able to get into them. I don't know if they're like not trying to force them. It's an odd thing. And then I think their map pool is still their biggest weakness.
speaker-2: That's the biggest weakness, right? Is the the map pool for Falcons is always the conversation. I think the big conversation we've had so far at this event is Falcons bringing Anubis back into the pool. Obviously, Dust 2 is a map they love to go to, but the problem is all the other top teams also enjoy Dust Two and are very, very good on it. And we got to see that in the game against Vitality. Falcons got absolutely destroyed. Like 13 4 loss, didn't get into it at all. Mirage was the same, it was just too weak to even compete against Vitality going into that third map. So for the most part, yeah, I think Falcons map pool is the is definitely still their weakness. I I think it's cool to see that Inferno's gotten better for them in their map pool, but you know, we're looking at Anubis is is like the the one clear shining light for Falcons in this first stage of the tournament. And that yeah, exactly.
speaker-0: The major as well. Kind of
speaker-1: So
speaker-0: reminder to me. Yeah. Like it was a big reminder to me. It was like the the Anubis was basically their major. Like if you go back and look at the games and what they were doing, that was like their that that's where they basically just pinned everybody. Where previously I don't think they had some it was like accidentally their best map, basically, is what it it it looks like for the major. And I think they're trying to tap back into that again. And I think ancient we still don't even know, I think. They're trying to avoid it, but we don't really know what's going on there right now. Yeah. I think it's map the problem though, Jason. I think the problem that they run into is like like Dinka was saying, the map pool from them isn't horrible. It's that the teams that they're running into at the tippy top, it it kinda gets weird.
speaker-1: yeah, but it's always gonna get weird, isn't it, at the tippy top?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They do have a map where I feel like I believe they're in the driver's seat. You know what I mean? Where Falcons, I don't know outside
speaker-1: Here's a couple things I think that's good about here's a couple things I think that's good about their map pool. One is they ban cash. Like I'd like to see them play because I think they'd be good on it. But banning it right now, it's the third most played map here at ESL Pro League. A lot of teams are loving to play it, and a lot of teams are starting to establish that it's a map they want to go to. So all of a sudden that's a map that's taken away from their opponents. Mirage and Dust Two are the number one and number two played maps. Their Dust Two is really good. Their Mirage is what, like their third best map as well. So I mean on the high level of the maps that are being played at this event right now They're very competent on or they fucking remove the map. Fourth bet most played map at Pro League is Anubis, which they're the fucking goats on at the moment. You know what I mean? Like the like I I think they're actually sitting in a pretty decent place, but
speaker-0: They can Elden Navi on it, but yeah, they they it is the best map, I think, right now. Mikazi went fucking crazy.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's just like when you get to the best teams in the world, when you get to those top three, top four teams, like, you know, no matter how good the map is for you, that other team is good on it as well. And and you know, that's the game. That's countership.
speaker-0: Yeah, alright. Alright, Jason. Fine, that's a game. That's a game. But you know, now that I got Jason right where I want him.
speaker-1: Here we go.
speaker-0: Are you ready to admit when Vitality wins pro league that this is still their era? And once they tie this together with the major, 'cause holy shit do they look good. They look good, bro. They look good and they do. I test to me. And I test to me tells me he says they're literally getting better. Like not saying than before. Yeah.
speaker-1: yeah, they're getting some swagger back, for sure.
speaker-0: They're literally three and I just feel like when you cut to the cams they all just it's remind I I'm getting that feeling again, Jason.
speaker-2: I love listening to them. Honestly, the coolest thing about Pro League is the fact that we've been sitting in front of the best teams in the world for like a week straight. And they're like so close to us. We can hear them talking. I take an ear cup off. I listen. I listen to like the c the in-game leaders, how they're communicating. Vitality are the most fun to listen to. Like they just have they just sound like they're having a good time. Everyone's making jokes, laughing. Like during the halftime breaks, everyone's having a great time. It was so cool to have Apex up and talk about how he doesn't call pistol rounds 'cause they're stupid random rounds. And he just lets the rest of the team come up with it. Like, I think that's been the coolest part of Vitality is they just have such a fun vibe inside of the team and they're playing incredible counter strike at the moment. I feel like th if they win pro league and then go on to win a major Jason, you y even you you have gotta admit that this isn't over. Like it's still going.
speaker-1: No.
speaker-0: come on Jason, hop on.
speaker-2: he's left us with a teaser.
speaker-1: I don't what do you want me to say? You want me to predict the future? What happens if Spirit wins it? What are you guys gonna tell me the vitality error is in fact over and I'm right? Okay.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, no, like yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Great. Wait, hold
speaker-1: See you on the next episode of the NQ and
speaker-0: on. I have to do a sponsor plug if we're ending it there. Hold on, wait a second. No, I just I don't
speaker-1: I'm just That was my closeout to the short.
speaker-0: how do you like what do what do you think about vitality? Like what are you thinking?
speaker-1: No, they look great. They look great. I th I think they're gonna win the event. I think I think they're they're the best team at the event so far by far. And and it's really cool to see
speaker-2: Mouse, I raise you mouse.
speaker-1: No, get the fuck out.
speaker-0: until Mause actually wins their fight.
speaker-2: I think mouse should be mentioned.
speaker-0: because we've done this already older.
speaker-2: No, that was incredible. No? Like they're watching Mouse, the way they beat Team Spirit, the way they absolutely destroyed Donk. Like, come on, that looked awesome.
speaker-1: I think Maus deserves.
speaker-0: I've seen him do that to Spirit before. I've seen I've seen Mao's be like one of the first teams to like not even recent
speaker-2: They are the
speaker-0: I just remember vividly when Donk was on the come up. Like I remember like the vividly the nuke game that like Donk had to play against Mause where they basically naded him everywhere. I remember I think it was Ancient was an ancient game versus Mause as well, where they they did some devious shit to him in mid. I can't remember if it was Mao's or somebody else, but I remember the nuke game. The nuke game where I f for the first time I watched a team target Donk and go at Donk and kill Donk for an entire map. And it was so when I I it's hard because everything when we talk about Mouse, I've seen them do it before. And it's not that it's not impressive. It's that I don't trust them to win. So until they win, it's like, yes, the way they handled Spirit, that was fantastic. Yes, do I think that this project and the players that they got look better and They're on an upward trajectory. Yeah, they 3-0 groups again. They look like they are one of the best teams in the world that's gonna go toe-to-toe with vitality. And I've just seen this shit before. So it's hard as a person that has has eyes and has to watch these games to just be like, Yeah, this one will be different. Why? I could not tell you why. Nothing feels different. It actually all feels the same despite it being positive. And that's where I'm at with Mouse is I think they look fucking great. Only once you fetch a big
speaker-2: Figures against them on a map in the entire pro league.
speaker-0: And you know what, Dinko? It that's called a group stage with mouse.
speaker-2: I'm gonna buy MML this week I'm buying MLs this week. This week one time only.
speaker-0: So this Dinko says Mouse is the best team in the world.
speaker-2: I mean they're playing Furia in the playoffs.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a good recipe for that.
speaker-2: Then they're on the Falcons versus Spirit side. I'm gonna say Falcon Spirit could go either way. So if they get Spirit, feel like that's a great job. And you got Miles in the grand final. So I believe. I believe they're gonna do very well.
speaker-0: Let me see let me go let me go through this whole pro league really quick. Let me look at these matchups.
speaker-1: I think it's it's worth mentioning as well that I mean you should we should give exertion credit for stepping into IGL and once again making it look like nothing's dropped off. Like I I'm I'm very surprised by that.
speaker-0: Sorry, this shit starts at one thirty in the morning tomorrow.
speaker-2: What's We got four BO threes coming your way, Flawn, flo four best of threes in the Spo deck all day.
speaker-0: my god.
speaker-2: We're on the late shift though, Jason.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: You have to do all four?
speaker-0: Me? Yeah. I don't I don't have to. I I probably won't. It's one it's it's way was it the one? It's the one versus game. Yeah, yeah. I'll be skipping that one. Vitality parent
speaker-2: I'm actually most interested to see. I actually I feel like Aurora. We haven't talked about them yet. But I feel like this is the team that I'm actually most looking forward to seeing in the arena. Just because every other team well, because every other team like Starbucks Fuhrer, Vitality, yeah, I'm not expecting them to do very well in terms of like getting the big results.
speaker-1: They beat him at Star Ladder.
speaker-2: Well, because it's the spodack, isn't it, Jason? There's like there's a whole other level to it. That but that's why
speaker-1: They're all experienced. They're all experienced on a rotor.
speaker-2: Yeah yeah, but that's why it's that's why it's experien that's why it's interesting to me. It's just like how good are Aurora? Like how how capable are they? Like this is happening very quickly. Like they're getting better and better very quickly. So, you know, this is the next step. You know, how how are you gonna fare? You've got a lot of talent on this team. Impat looks great, Ash has been a good coach. I I've really enjoyed watching Aurora so far. So let's see how much of a fight they can put up inside of this bodeg.
speaker-1: Just to be clear, if this was the vitality era, that's not the conversation we would be having. You'd be saying, It's the vitality era, Roar is gonna get fucking pummeled.
speaker-0: no, they're I said that in under my breath, like just a little bit when Dinko started, I said they're gonna run into vitality. I was like it's not gonna matter.
speaker-2: We know we know we know they're gonna run into vitality and that but that's like how how close can they even get it against vitality, you know, in their era.
speaker-0: Vi you know, if there is a team that can maybe like actually derail vitality, not like in a skillful way, but I do feel like Paravision versus Vitality could be funny. I like just the
speaker-1: It could get weird.
speaker-0: types of players on Vitality. You Flames gets bored, Apex is not necessarily known for his patience and I don't know. They they're gonna make it unfun for vitality, I'll tell you that right now. They they might
speaker-2: viewers at home. Tune in to ESL Pro League to make sure it's gonna be a really fun game to watch everybody. Every single game we have here is gonna be super fun.
speaker-0: really have to start getting paid for me to sell for these plugs. This is crazy. the I don't know. Yeah, I think it'll be Vitality Aurora, and then I think Vitality will be in the final. I think Falcons will probably they should beat Spirit. I the the I hope we get Falcons Mouse because I do feel like that's really a fun matchup actually. Because then I don't have to watch Mouse Well actually that is the fucking stereotype. This is actually we're like just time traveling. Mause vers Falcons, Maus beats Falcons, then they play versus Vitality in the best of five final and get three o'd. This is actually
speaker-1: Falcons have their major run refreshed at this event. All you know, Spirit, Furia, and then Vitality if they make it to the finals. Different
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: order.
speaker-0: A little bit different order. I mean
speaker-2: The order we wish we had in Cologne. Please, why couldn't we have had this?
speaker-0: Yeah, the fury of being on the other side was always a bit sad. But at least we have
speaker-2: We got the cast we got to cast Vitality Falcons. I think we were pretty happy about how how it went down in Columbia.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that was a that was a fun one. Can't complain. I think unless you guys got too much more to that, I think it's a good one, boys. I think Jason's talked enough today. I think that was so we all agree that Vitality's back, they have their era and they're winning this event, right, Jason?
speaker-1: Two out of the three sound fucking great. No, I I I do. I have Vitality win event. I think they're gonna I think they're gonna smoke it. They l they look really good. And they look very chill and relaxed and talking to them is you're getting some of that feeling back. Like when we talk to them
speaker-2: On the couch.
speaker-1: Not even that, like this'll this'll sound like crazy. like i e even at the major, I remember doing I don't know. I I remember the first game Dako we casted a Vitality in Cologne at the major and it looked like they hadn't like touched the game. in a while. Like I was watching players move around the map looking like they were looking like me. Like when I haven't played in a while and I get in the map, I feel like I'm running in like fucking sharp right angles.
speaker-0: But if you don't play the game, so that's
speaker-1: Yeah, I know. But this might be played with Vitality looked completely fucking I don't know. Like I was just watching I don't care shit at the major, but here they all look like they've been fucking zeroed in. They all
speaker-2: Zaiwu, Zaiwu definitely in those games was like slow to start every map. It was like, Mr. Zaiwu.
speaker-1: Drops was the one that I noticed the most. Props' movement of Cologne,
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: I felt like it was like I was like, Man, it feels like it's been a minute for you, you know, like you're rediscovering what it feels like to sit down at a mouse and keyboard. You know, there's like the your appendages don't feel like they don't feel like your own arms anymore. but now everything seems it seems gravy, so whatever. Yeah. The only thing that can hinder vitality is Apex getting that phone call.
speaker-2: That's true. J L coming up. That would be
speaker-0: That would be crazy. Holy fuck. If
speaker-2: And their mouths were in there though.
speaker-0: you're the manager and you get the phone call in the middle of the best of five final, do you tell him? You better do two.
speaker-2: Otherwise you I know you know what it's up.
speaker-0: Last map though, last map was you You have to tell him, but could you imagine outside
speaker-1: Imagine being jammed.
speaker-0: and you're the c you're literally the manager and you get the call or something and like you're like no You're like one map away.
speaker-1: It depends. Is the call like she's she's going into the hospital and it's coming tomorrow? Is the call
speaker-0: Into Little
speaker-1: or is the call baby's here? Do you wanna leave?
speaker-0: Maybe baby's on the way. Holy shit.
speaker-1: I don't
speaker-0: Surely the manager has to tell him, but there is a world where I'm just thinking about like maybe I don't know. Yeah. Yeah,
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm so glad I'm not in that situation.
speaker-0: that'd be crazy. You're wrong no matter what you do. shit. All right, but you know what you're never wrong with? Trading on CS money. That's right. You can always win there. Trade on CS Money, thank you very much for sponsoring the podcast. Thank you for everybody that's been listening to the podcast. I'm clearly a fantastic host of these two. I I'm clearly the one leading all these conversations and doing a fantastic job. And I'm glad that these two can agree and we'll wrap it up there.
speaker-1: He wasn't he wasn't he wasn't part of the crazy games is the issue. You were playing one of One of them
speaker-2: I was playing game where I was about to win dominantly and you counter my commander and ruined the game for me. And then came third out of fourth, Jason.
speaker-1: In my defense though, I won on my next turn. I did it for a reason. I didn't just do it to be a d
speaker-2: You didn't win. You died in the next turn and then Alex won the game.
speaker-1: you're talking about that game. Yeah. Yeah, that game yeah.
speaker-0: Spiteful, Jason.
speaker-1: No, it was it was the only chance I had to to live and and fight back was to counter his commander, let Alex go through No, not counter your commander, counter your spell and go through with let Alex do
speaker-2: Let all my shit die.
speaker-1: Yeah, basically.
speaker-0: Who wait, who are you running, Dinko? Was it the your mono later gun?
speaker-2: Yeah, it's from no, it's human deck. It's it started as Riders of Rohan precon, but it definitely doesn't seem like that anymore.
speaker-0: Alright, so just to tee everybody up, Jason's already just like grumpy. So like just this whole episode we're gonna just try to rage bait Jason. what are you grumpy? But they're literally it's his own choices, really. We get on, him and I are talking, he's like, Man, this schedule, like, motherfucker, you planned it. Like you did this.
speaker-1: No, I'm not I'm not putting the responsibility on anyone else. Most of my grumpiness and frustration is directed inward.
speaker-2: I woke up this morning I woke up this morning really early and I'm rolling out with my golf clubs in the morning. Who opens the door in the hallway next to me? Jason Moses are tool.
speaker-0: Good morning. How could you do this to me? No way. Get away from me.
speaker-1: I had to go in and I I had to go in and do a podcast with ESL. and then I did a talk encounter podcast and now I'm doing a in Q podcast.
speaker-0: You just never.
speaker-2: You said for last.
speaker-1: I do my best, I try to shut the fuck up. Nobody lets me.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, it is kind of funny to get you revved up. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. Speak
speaker-2: Well let's talk more about Flomland.
speaker-0: Yeah, I was about to say, hey, I was I was right there, Dinko. I had it. I had it. The yeah, what did you guys think, man? Glaze me a little bit. Remember, I am also your employer in this scenario. What'd you guys think? You know, go through the list that Chris made for us. He gave us bullet points and stuff. If you guys wanna Holy shit. Yeah, you guys could even reference that. Like what it give me, give me the rundown. What it what what did Moses and Dinko think of FML?
speaker-2: Well, my initial take is it's one of my favorite events to work because it's just you I heard something really was when you leave Discord, does it play like a Halloween sound, do you know?
speaker-0: Yes, yes it does. Welcome to Discord.
speaker-2: That freaked me out. overall I think the event was one of my favorite that I've worked just because it's such a unique feeling as a caster. Like we get to sort of be one with the audience, which is really cool. Like both the chat at home but also the guys at the venue. It felt pretty similar to the first one, which is good because the first one was really good, but it just felt more polished around the edges. But also it felt like much more of a team effort in general, like sitting after work, talking with everyone and you know everyone was so hungry to improve on even the smallest of details. so for the most part, I just I thought this was a really, really fun event to be a part of. And, you know, obviously a lot of work in terms of like game to game to game, but I think we did very good. I think the content side of things was just so much better this year. I think the the talent the it the display behind the scenes too, the content was just so so fun to watch and turned out really well. So that I just really enjoyed being a part of the event.
speaker-0: How nice were those words each time compared to the first one? Five minute break?
speaker-1: Yeah love here and that.
speaker-0: Not the fourteen hour days. Ferme says break. I'm like, how long? How long? How long is this one?
speaker-1: Yeah. Like do I is this like a pea break or is this like I can sit down and eat a sandwich break?
speaker-0: Yeah, exactly.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm I mean I I told you before we even went live and I wasn't I wasn't bullshitting that it's just like an event that's like good for the soul for me. It feels like like for for all these bigger events that we do, which are obviously phenomenal and and they're their own like unique kind of special, but there is like a disconnect it feels once you get into the big arenas between the fans, the audience and like the game itself where now there's this s spectacle of the arena and the and the arena show that's there. It's not a bad thing, but I love I love getting to come do the smaller events and like yours feeling so like grassroots and so community oriented. It is just one of those ones that just makes me feel like so much happier about still being in this capacity of of working in Counter Strike. and it's a kind of just a good reminder of why why this kind of industry and why this job working in CS is is so is so special and so unique. so for me it was like one of it's like an event that when I go to that, yeah, it's tiring. Yeah, the co streamer schedule's long, breaks are nice, but it's still long days. but it's it's just like a Good for the soul, you know, like it it actually feels like it's healing to me a little bit. I felt the way about the first one too. and then it's also fun watching you from your end of of the event, like starting to like try and figure out more and more in terms of like improving like the tournament side for the players and for the teams. It it really feels like I've kind of like teleported back in time to like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, like dream hacks, as they were kind of like building up, you know like obviously like a smaller scale, but that that feeling of like we're we're building something, like we're starting here and we have these goals to like move somewhere. and that's a feeling that I think these days, because the TOs have been so set for like the past ten years, these days that feeling is kind of hard to come by in this job. So I I personally I fucking love that feeling. I love feeling like I'm building some some new event and some new show from the ground up. So so for me that's that's the fucking ace in the hole.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, well one, I see why everybody wants you to talk, Jason. You're pretty good at it. You should keep doing that full time just thought I'd let you know you're doing pretty good. I I am kind of curious though, like just to kind of pick your guys' brain on a podcast, 'cause I think people you know, people ask me a lot to like get more people in there or like am I ever gonna scale it up? How it what would you guys do? I'm curious, 'cause I'll I'll I'll I'll give you guys my my dilemma in internally, which is I want more people to be at the event because more people means bigger things, right? That I could potentially do. But then if I go bigger, do I lose the feeling of what I've created in that venue? Or if I even go slightly bigger, does that venue create such a unique scenario where it's almost impossible to replicate that feeling in that building in other locations as well? So that's kind of like I I don't know. How to get more people necessarily and maintain the feeling, or if I do get more people, do I make it something else? So like I kind of have like FML and then I have like, I don't know, we'll just say the FLOM Pro Tournament, blah, blah, blah. Whatever, like the bigger version that's like maybe more TO style that you're accustomed to, or like what what I'm just curious, pick your guys' brain, like what do you guys think? If I wanted to expand ticket sales and get more people to to experience an event that I'm running But not lose the feeling that we've created with the first two. Do you guys have any ideas? Or or any thoughts, rather?
speaker-2: I think it's interesting 'cause I think this week, I think this weekend should be really important f for that style of broadcast because we're about to run this fun ESL pro league style format that we've been doing for the last couple of seasons, but doing it in the Spo deck, right? So we're scaling this up into a a much larger venue and we was I just got back from the rehearsal for the event and there's a conversation with production just about how much we want to involve the the crowd in it. The analyst desk's gonna be sitting in the in the crowd as well, like the couch will be in the middle of the audience inside of the spot deck. So We're coming up like games and way to involve the audience and get people involved with giveaways, et cetera. So I think it'll be interesting to see how that goes and and see if it really works. I think I think it will. I think it'll be exciting. but I feel like the venue that we're in for for FML is perfect, like for the style that we're doing right now. but if you do obviously want to scale it up, like I feel it will change slightly. It'll be always become a little less personal, but I think just the I think if you look at Dallas, like I am Dallas over the years, the American audience still had a lot of fun and a lot of memes and the community was still there. So I think you wouldn't lose as much as you think you would. I think especially with just the style of the show and the fact that it's personality driven and there people a lot of people are there, one because of the CS, but two because of you, Flomp. So I think a show driven by that core, I think it would be quite quite easy to maintain the same vibe. and then if you take it to the extreme, I think this weekend at ESL Proli will show you that you can do it in a large audience, in a large stadium.
speaker-0: So before we continue that wonderful conversation, I need to thank today's sponsor for the NQ podcast, CS Money, because without them, Money Man Moses wouldn't be able to be here and he wouldn't be able make time for us. So thank you very much, CS Money, for sponsoring NQ. As many of you guys already know, if you're familiar with my content, CS Money is strictly a trading and marketplace website. So I got lower prices than Steam. You can do quick trades. They have probably one of the biggest inventories, if not the biggest, of any site out there. You can use PayPal or crypto if you want to buy through the marketplace. They also have like an instant sell feature. So if you're just trying to move your stuff quick for whatever reason, you could do that directly through them and sell some of your inventory. If that sounds interesting, make sure you guys check out the link in the description below. As always, like to say, be careful, guys, not just like with this or with anything. Just be careful with clicking links out there. There's a lot of impersonators of all of these sites, and I just want people to be careful. Genuinely. So just you know, just a little warning for me. We'll get back into the video now. I was curious if they're gonna try that. Because I know it's Jackson, right? That gets to make the choice. And I know Jackson likes I mean, for people listening, Jackson is one of the what the head product product manager for basically Pro League, like Pro League is his is his baby, right? So and he's a North American. He's a he's a good one. And he was at FMO one not to work, just to hang out. So I I not Not that he yoinked it or anything like that. This is beyond the sub just like I think he has an appreciation for these style of events. And I feel like when you guys I feel like when you guys probably mentioned it to him or he mentioned it to you, whatever that order of operations was, him being the one that gets to, you know, say we should do this is probably the perfect person to execute that. So it is cool though that he's gonna with you guys do that in the arena. Like that that that's interesting. I wasn't sure. Because I feel like ESL as a company as a whole has been a little I don't know. Until Pro League rolls around. But then Pro League was kind of like it felt like it had to be adapted because of Malta and all the different and how long it was, right? And you kinda you couldn't do the same like rigid style. But I I never actually would have imagined that they would l kinda let it go into the big arena, but that's cool. now now I'll be taking notes while I'm watching.
speaker-1: Yeah, we we dipped our toes in it last year when we were in Stockholm, but it it was a very it was a much smaller like venue in a very different environment obviously than the Spodek will be.
speaker-2: Closer to one we have for FML, the one we had in Stockholm.
speaker-1: Yeah, definitely definitely closer in that size. still significantly larger I would say that that room we were in at Star in in Stockholm.
speaker-0: It was like a couple of thousand, right? In there?
speaker-1: Something like UK. It could hold a I think it could hold a bunch more, but I don't I don't know. I don't know. I don't I don't I didn't think I don't e I don't even know those details. I don't even know why I'm trying to talk about it. no, I I just don't remember what they were at the time. yeah, the Pro League thing, like that all started because honestly we j we got bored.
speaker-0: yeah, you can't do that.
speaker-1: Like as as the broadcast talent, it happened after that. It happened right be right before or it was the it was the Pro League and the RMR that happened right before the Rio major. We were in Malta in the same venue. It was right out of COVID. So there were all there were a bunch of like COVID restrictions as well and like little fears still lingering around. But we did like seven weeks in the same place in the same show for two different events. Like one was ESO Pro League and one was like a major qualifier. Holy fucking Coming out of that, we'd all basically like lost our fucking minds. And I remember like Chad and I sat down and like wrote down all these ideas and we spent the next like month like pitching everyone we possibly could with an ESL at every single letter of the fucking corporate ladder and and explaining like we need to get like this event that like Pro League has no identity. Like at the time it was kind of like half owned by the teams too. So it was a little bit weird, but it had no identity of what the event was supposed to be. So for us it was really easy. It was like it was like there's no like BTS shut down. There's now like no chill casual counter strike event. So there's no like event that's like meant to like engage the community in a meaningful way and get the players involved and like we're missing that within the scene. Blast was doing official shows, PGL's doing their official shows, ESL's doing their official shows. And like we needed something that was a little bit more chill. And that's at the heart of what your event is, where it's very much like community community focused. And that's like the kind of the vibe you have in that room is that it is this community. That's all there to enjoy the same thing together the way they've been doing for years and years online. So that community feel is what you're trying to keep while scaling it up, right? I think I think I think that kind of a vibe is like you can you can scale that up. You know, you're always every time you scale it up to a different size, you're gonna lose some percentage of it, right? But I feel like you could probably scale it up to like two two K, like a like a like a theater kind of environment, like a you know, like where theater instead of like arena think. in my mind. And that's that that's like a really cool environment to kind of nurture that. But I think your read on it is the correct one is I think you think you'll always want to have like an event that's that like this event that's begun that you can keep in that attitude and in that kind of magic that you found it in. And, you know, as you said, you have two two Flum events this year. you know, I don't know if you make a third or if you just change the second one, but I think having one smaller event that is more community focused and one that does change a little bit to be more competitive focused for the teams. If that's the route you want to go, I think that's an easy thing to do. But I think you'll find eventually as you start scaling it up, you hit like this point where you lose that kind of community magic and that's where you really have to think of how far you want to scale it to go to the next Yeah, ex essentially. So that's that's always the decision you're you're eventually gonna run into. And I don't know if my numbers are accurate. Maybe you can do it up to fucking five K. I don't know how many fans you have out there in the wood.
speaker-2: I think it would just be experimental as well. Like
speaker-0: We do sell it in like a minute, Jason. So
speaker-1: It's true. Yeah, I mean that's the that's the first sign that you can scale it up, right? Is when it sells out in ten minutes, you know
speaker-2: yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: There's such a yeah, I think that's the other side of like tornado organizing is just like knowing what you can do, but what do you lose when you wanna scale things up? Like what what do you lose? Do you and what's important to stay there? And I think that's the most important thing about the FML events. It's just like this unique recipe that you guys have going on in terms of your fan base l coming and just like I think they started yelling out when you were nervous about talking on stage. I think people from the crowd literally started yelling at you where it's just Talking to Twitch chat but in real life. And that was like the actual fans saying that. So you know, I I definitely get that sense from the event. Like the the memes and like the inside jokes and just yeah, they just bring it to life. I think it's really, really cool. I think it's so interesting to be able to have like a live Twitch chat. Like that's essentially what it is. So I mean
speaker-0: Yeah, it's good and bad in some ways. Well, there's gonna be one question that people keep asking me, and and Sicka will love me to ask you guys this so that way we can put a clip out of it. Do you guys think I made money on the second one? That's the Did I make money? Yes or no?
speaker-2: How much really is the question? Like how
speaker-0: no, we won't we won't go into hard numbers 'cause I can't. Okay.
speaker-2: let me think. I'm gonna logically think about this and come to a conclusion. So I would say the only things that were profitable would probably be ticket sales and merchandise and maybe like twitch subs, right? Like that would probably be the only areas where you would actually make significant money.
speaker-0: Well sponsors. I mean sponsors
speaker-2: Sponsors, yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: That's actually a pretty big one.
speaker-0: No, the last one.
speaker-2: Yeah, of course. But I'm just wondering like how much of that goes in you know, I would just take the
speaker-0: Yeah. You're wondering how much of the extra
speaker-2: Event fees or whatever. So I'd say yes, made a little bit of money, but you know, you're never anytime.
speaker-0: The answer is I asked you this question without having an answer. So that was the no I don't the answer is it's leading towards even
speaker-1: Clip that's gonna make.
speaker-0: It's leading towards even. That's where we're we gotta kinda calculate everything. So we'll see.
speaker-2: Passionate about these things and like having such a good time. Breaking even is a good place to start, isn't it?
speaker-0: No, no, breaking even for the second one. If we can if we can get to even on the second one, we're in there. The the merch is probably was the biggest surprise in a positive way. That was that's the way I'll put it. We the amount of merch we saw
speaker-1: Sick merch, dude.
speaker-0: I I appreciate. I saw you rocking it on the pro league. I saw. Yeah, dude. Yeah. We gotta get Dinko with the hoodie on and the Spodeck. That'll go well.
speaker-1: It's the Europeans don't understand the camo shirt. They're they're all a little bit confused by it.
speaker-0: The don't shoot me orange goose either. Like they have no idea what's going on. No yeah. The w we improved a lot of things. I mean, honestly, I saved a lot of money this time on a lot of shipping stuff because I actually was a lot more planned out. We had a lot more time to build this one out. So it was that was where our not only did we sell more merch, but the profit margin we had on the merch was significantly better than the first one because I wasn't like Sending this shit everywhere with an airplane. Some of it was on a boat, some of it we made like a lot of the merch is made here, but a lot of the smaller items are like they come from China, then you throw them on a boat. But if you throw them on a plane, you basically spend like eight times the amount of money on shipping. Yeah. So well, you don't have that for all the little like the playing cards, for example, right? Like those go from like being like really expensive actually to make to like dirt cheap to make, but it's actually not based on how you made it, it's the shipping. That's that's all it is. So yeah, that was the one thing that we learned from the last one that helped a lot. So hopefully even.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: We we found some mistakes in the broadcast with the ads, so we'll see how that one goes.
speaker-1: You learn you learn one of those lessons every single event and you're fucking laughing, you know what I mean?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, no, you're not wrong. Well, I'm laughing now. You didn't see my face when I initially We did what? Who fucked up where we didn't fucking me? You put playing cards on an airplane for this amount of money? Holy shit. Okay, man. No yeah. No, it's it's good. No, I was I appreciate it, man. You guys killed it, honestly again. Like I I know it's cool that we also got to make Jason make a playing a show match again against the Yo, he played another one. I know. He was you and dreadnett. You and Dreadnett. It was a vibe. I don't care what you say. You had a great time.
speaker-1: have a certain level of pride that I have to maintain in my counter strike level as a former professional player and someone who is on these broadcasts as an analyst. Those those those are dangerous. You're putting my career at risk throwing me out there into that shit.
speaker-0: I put Jordan Up and Gilbert on your team.
speaker-1: It's the same shit that ha same thing happened at ESL. they have this coaching show match that I'm supposed to like be the host of and and the guy the I'm supposed to be hosting and like having them pick the teams and just being like the game show host and blah blah blah blah blah. And I get a message the night before and it's like, hey man, so and so he said he's sick. He can't do it. can you play? And I was like, No, this can't happen again. absolutely not. There has to be someone with a brain cell who is around who can play Counter Strike and he's like, All right, all I'll go ask some other people and he messaged me back later. He's like, All right, I got one, you're good, you're clear, you're just hosting, no playing, all good. Wake up the next morning, get a message, Hey, so and so just fucking canceled. There's literally nobody else, you have to play and I was just like, Motherfucker. Yeah. How does it happen so consistently happening?
speaker-2: Jason to Jason, you need my keyboard? You got a mouse there? yeah, it was it was hilarious when I woke up and found out he's doing another show match like two days after he just
speaker-0: All I'm saying is I gave you a very stacked team, okay, Jason. And
speaker-1: You were very gentle.
speaker-0: you know, you had never been around Jakey before, the the fellow next to you, Nike Jakey. I told you. I I'm not gonna shade you. I know you probably have not watched his YouTube video yet, but I hope now that you've played a show match and been around his energy a little bit, I hope you go back. I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna fucking link this thing right now. You got home
speaker-2: Right Nake Jake is awesome. He he's a cool guy.
speaker-0: Dude, it's it's that that they carried that. They they carried that. Like Jordan, the other team, my god. It was incredible. Incredible
speaker-1: Locked in, man. Mike, Mike came up to me in the middle of a like a live round and put the microphone in front of my face to say something. And I was just I was so locked in. I was like, I'm not saying a fucking word here.
speaker-0: I didn't need to do that's what I'm saying.
speaker-1: I wasn't even thinking of your show at that point. I was like no, no.
speaker-2: I I was casting in that moment, Jason. I was like, all right, we're gonna hear from Jason. Silence. Yep. I was like, all right, he's locked in. He's locked in, guys.
speaker-1: I also had the noise cancelling headphones on so I couldn't hear what Mike was saying. So it was I was like, Nope, I'm out Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah no, I couldn't hear shit. I was doubled up too because I had these I don't know if that's how it works, but I had these in too, which the noise cancellation on these, same brand by the way. Sponsor me. Thank you. they dude, I couldn't hear shit. I mean like player
speaker-2: That's what the players do obviously. They like their in ears and then they have the noise cancelling headset over the top.
speaker-0: Well I'm saying these ones have noise cancelling built into them. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And then I had the ones over the top. I could not you could No
speaker-1: Jesus. You're in your own little world.
speaker-0: no 'cause so Mike like I take off the ear cut but I still have these in, so I still couldn't hear anything. I'm like, I don't know what the fuck to say, bro. Like I d I have no idea. Like I cannot
speaker-2: That's when Mike started drinking out of his leather boot on stage.
speaker-0: my god, Mike was an absolute animal that event. I I don't know, I he we were like, We're gonna use you more this event, Mike, and I feel like we did and he was less bored, but I still feel like at a certain point Mike was like, I got this. And then Mike just went crazy on that.
speaker-2: I know it was the point I it was the point where he realized like, keyboards take a lot longer to sign than anybody else thought. So Mike's just standing there with no direction at the front of the stage, like, I guess I gotta drink this beer out of my shoe. So good you know, good for him. He
speaker-0: This is where I'm gonna throw my production team under the bus. I told everybody on the production team, I was like, everybody should be signing when they set up their SSDs. And it didn't happen. And then everybody signed on the stage. I was like, fuck. I knew it. I was I'm throwing the whole team under the bus on this one. I was like, I c I knew this was happening one hundred percent. But it was it was still a great time. Dude, yeah, Jakey yeah, and honestly the other team were great sports. I didn't get to see their reactions till after. We had Tucker falling out of his chair and shit when he's getting knifed by Jordan. Like Arrow was having a good time. Trata's family was literally watching him while he's playing a show match he's never played on land. And it was not going well, but Trata still had a great time. You know, it it was good. Yeah, it was good vibes all around.
speaker-2: I think the other thing, you know, it's it's kind of a positive and a negative is the catering. It was it was really good for the event now you know, but the one th I was really sad. Microwave
speaker-0: You've hung out with me too long that you just
speaker-2: Yeah, the microwave testitos or whatever they're called, they didn't have those. Testitos. I wanted those really bad and they didn't have them. But they did have good soup apparently, so that's good.
speaker-1: I got him at Costco, brother, you can get anywhere.
speaker-0: cannot I still cannot believe Dinko living in Texas comes to the event goes Man you had those fine Mexican tequita that
speaker-2: The green sauce. Ugh. So good.
speaker-1: I'll be honest though, I thought the same thing when I was in college and I had them for the first time. I was like this is some camera.
speaker-0: Great. I just wouldn't ever out loud.
speaker-1: No, not anymore.
speaker-0: Like that just wouldn't that carry the vlog though, so when we got to eat, you know, you you know back to
speaker-2: Media Day.
speaker-0: the You're like, I love Media Day over there, it's great.
speaker-2: I'll do every media day. I wish a media day was like that for you as well.
speaker-0: I guess to to wrap it up though on like a serious note, what did you guys think about the competition itself? Like did you guys we'll talk like did you guys like having the South American teams there? Did you guys feel like we got to see maybe the best team in North America right now? What did you guys feel about like let's just let's kind of stick to the bigger teams here? Like how did you feel about eighty energy liquid wildcard? You know what I mean? I feel like those four were kind of the the top Disappointed. Get Dendele in there, right? Get Dendele. I like but going in, that's what those were the teams I was kind of like, this it what how is this gonna shake up? Like what g kind of give me the rundown. What are you guys feeling about those teams?
speaker-2: Yeah, I think coming into the event we all agreed Team Liquid were the absolute favorites, so it was really good to see them deliver and be able to perform as as dominant.
speaker-0: I didn't fully agree with that, but yeah.
speaker-1: I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure I've we've had the argument on this podcast of me saying Liquid's still the best North American team and you guys.
speaker-2: Both of us on that on that board, Jason.
speaker-1: sure, sure, yeah. Take it away.
speaker-0: Go ahead.
speaker-2: but team liquid come in, they look they look really strong, they handle business against everybody. So I think it's it's a really good positive note to leave the event with that you do have like a team that you can go out there and root for in the international stage. You know, as much as you've been wanting that to be someone like M80 or maybe NRG sawing glimpses of it at the previous event before FML, they beat
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah
speaker-2: and then did nothing and then bombed out of this tournament as well. So it's crazy. It was It was strange to see NRG look so weak as the tournament went on. I think that was disappointing. and then eighty, I mean, we talked about it, the fact their travel schedule was just insane. We brought it up yesterday at Pro League as well, because they played Spirit last night in the last day of the groups. They did have a crazy travel schedule coming in late. You could see they looked a bit rough against Dendelay in that game they played. So for that, I would say eighty again, I would say I almost say rather rather disappointing for eighty coming coming into the event. but for the most part, I think the big positive is just team liquid is good and I think having the two South American squads there, at least one of them delivered, Dendele kind of had someone to root against, I think. That was the that was the fun part. Like,
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: we can't surprise you can't have a South American team come and win the NA event, right? So I think they kind of made sort of created a heel for the event and and I think people got more behind the American teams, even more so.
speaker-1: I wish Dendelay had done better, to be honest with you. I was I was kinda pumped. I wanted to actually see them kinda challenged towards the end. I didn't I didn't I didn't I don't did I don't think we casted many of their games. I think they were mostly on the Beast Rapids. No
speaker-0: The comeback Man to watch, bro. Player
speaker-1: That's right.
speaker-0: to watch. Player to watch. Come on now. Yeah, we gotta you watch a lot of CS, it's okay.
speaker-1: The event played out pretty much the way I thought it would. Liquid is the best team by by a country mile, disappointing performance from NRG, disappointing performance from eighty, disappointing performance f well actually probably d I can't say that about Wildcard. I think Wildcard was fine considering the situation, the circumstances they were in, but I feel like Yeah, a little bit probably.
speaker-2: Wildcard really overperformed, I think, compared to what I actually
speaker-1: But I mean the disappointment of the other two is I don't know. it's funny to call it disappointment, it's kinda just par for the course, isn't it?
speaker-0: Well, I think the way in which energy kind of lost was the disappointing part. Like the eye test of the game didn't look great. And then we throw in the fact that Dapps wasn't there. Like Dapps didn't even travel with him. He was so sick. And I feel like those games got close and started to get away from energy and it felt like Coach. Nitro, you know, we keep we we keep talking about like Nitro should is like best IGL. And I do think he's a great captain. Like I do but you do need like another voice in those scenarios. You just need somebody to break up the the the continuous stream of like one voice trying to be the driving force all the time. And I just think that that's kind of what felt bad is like it felt like energy had a little bit of momentum. They come to my event, Daps is incredibly sick. They kind of have these tougher games for whatever reason. You know, they're they're having these games where they go deeper and then they just kind of fall flat. And then you look back behind them, you're like, well shit, Daps isn't there. Is that because of Daps? And then they come to what are they what was it Pro League or was it a different event?
speaker-2: it was Star Series that they they were it was Star Series just before yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. And then yeah, so you're just like, I don't know, I feel like it's that part was disappointing. I I I'm I am glad that Liquid handled business. because it's been a long time since I felt like they've done that as well. So
speaker-1: They look good doing it as well. They had like a good access to also. Like i it's hard to kind of extrapolate Yeah, Jorko Jorko did a great job of endearing himself to the American crowd. but yeah, I don't know. It was good seeing them play so so well and it's hard to kind of extrapolate that performance to like make it make a guess on how it's gonna they're gonna look internationally. We'll find out very, very soon. But at least for the moment, like all you could ask of them right now is come in and step in and dominate the events you shouldn't, especially against remo regional competition. I look at that liquid lineup and I say, If you're not fucking destroying every NA team, you're doing something wrong. And I was glad to see them step into the event and destroy every NA team. And now I can actually be intrigued and interested and have positives to talk about them on the international stage when they come to the European events and play against the European teams. Yeah. and we'll just see what they got.
speaker-2: Here in Alige at the end, you know, when he won the trophy, like talking about how I've always been on the best NA team, you know, and and now I have someone to root for. I'm still the best I'm still we're still the best NA team, you know. So I think it was cool to see Alige have a little of confidence after the event. What's crazy is when we were doing that trophy lift and we think back to it's like, Holy, that's how long it's been since Team Liquid won a trophy. Twenty nineteen Chicago, that is such a long time ago. of any level. And and to to hear a team liquid.
speaker-0: You're welcome Liquid. I think there's an online one in there somewhere.
speaker-1: They did. They won they won the first event after they removed me as a coach.
speaker-2: Was it online, Jason?
speaker-0: W move.
speaker-1: Yeah, I know, right? I
speaker-0: No, I think it was online, Jason.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: 'Cause that would be we we discussed this on the stream the other day. You had didn't go to a single like in person event, it would be so BM to kick you just before the in person event, Chase. And I can't I can't believe they they would do that.
speaker-1: It it might have been, I don't remember. But I mean I I'd be look, I'm never gonna argue that I think they made the right call and I I don't think I was particularly great as a coach at that at that period, whether it was me or the team, I think there's a lot of shit going on in in my personal life for sure, but it wasn't doing a great job turning the ship around. So whatever the reason was, I don't I'm not gonna sit here and blame for it. But yeah, I d I don't know. Would have been nice to go to an event, but not not Liquid's fault, not anyone's fault really.
speaker-0: So really I should Liquid, you can thank me later for putting on this event. Also to toot my own horn twice. Yeah. I just feel like that's why the event's so nice. When was the last time you just get like an NA event? Like like that's like you what I mean? Like Liquid wasn't at the first one, so it kind of didn't have this feeling that we had all I mean, they weren't I think at the time my first one they didn't have mobs yet either. So they weren't even an NA team. I couldn't even invite them. and then I think, right? Or was that is that
speaker-1: Yeah, they were they had a European roster at that point.
speaker-0: Is that they that's they s they traded to get into Cologne. Everybody loved that move, smile. for nerds.
speaker-2: Hey, you know what? Looking back, that's that's not an egregious move at all considering what's happened.
speaker-0: It wasn't then either. It was just the timing of it, right? Like it's it it nothing like it was everybody knew
speaker-1: That was a very defensible counter strike move. That was a very defensible move for a counter strike perspective.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: As the blue player. No, but I just I feel like I don't know. We haven't had an event where like before, like with pro leagues and other stuff, you'd have these regional sides of pro league where you know you kind of would have a team emerge out of it. And it was usually a North American team would emerge out of the North American pro league, even though back then it was kind of NA rest of world, right? Which was fun. And I feel like that was the nice part about this event is having Liquid there gave it the validity of like who is the bet who's gonna be the best North American team right now. And we haven't had that as a North American community for a while. Like we have some online events where some of the teams are there, some of the teams aren't. And you never get to see all of like you never we have not got to see Liquid Energy M80 wild card. Basically all play versus each other in a tournament that kind of matters. And it and it happened domestically. Yeah, and I I think that like what you were touching on earlier though, like liquid winning convincingly, is really good for them. But I feel like for as a fan, as somebody that's gonna co stream games and stuff like that, it's really nice to be able to at least talk about, even if they lose or look like shit, it's nice to talk about like this is the best North American team right now. You know what I mean? Like you know which one is the best, at least temporarily, until you go around. And we've never we have not had that s like literally probably since the last time like pre COVID, like twenty nineteen. It's been like seven years since like these teams have played each other in any meaningful way where you can definitively say that's the best North American day. Otherwise it's just you're pissing into the wind of like, well, they look better at this international tournament and they got this one upset over here. We might go last place now, but at least I know which one is the best at going last place.
speaker-2: Yeah. I mean NRG are would be great if the tournament was like one BO3 because they they come to the event, they always win the first game two zero. Wow, get you excited, and then they will then they just lose everything. And it happened in Star Series, happened to FML too. Came to the event, won beat wildcard two zero, lost to wildcard the next day two zero. so yeah, I think it was cool to see like just a skirmish between all the American teams across a multiple day event, and you know, there wasn't a single time where Team Liquid. look like it was in danger for them. So yeah, I think it's good to finally settle the debate, the argument, like who is the best and and then we get to do it again in a few months time, hopefully. That would be cool.
speaker-1: It's a it's a it's a credit to to you for throwing the event, but I think it's also a huge credit over to the VRS that that teams are now seeing these more regional competitions as as valuable in another sense, right? Like the reason why we're not seeing any of these teams for years play against each other in North America is because you know, the top three teams all say there's no fucking point in us doing events in this region. Like there's no value in it for us. So they go to Europe and they go to spend their time boot camping. Yeah. And now now that it makes more s now that it makes more sense for them to be able to come back and actually kick some ass in the region, gain some VRS points, increase their standing on a lower level of competition, you can take an event off and come back and do that and still be within the European circuit if you're getting the invite. So I think it's another example I think of of the VRS system that Valva brought in to be really, really effective in hitting in hitting that particular part of its goals. You know what I mean?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it helps build the fans as well. Like I feel like the connection between Liquid and the fan base in North America is dog shit. And
speaker-1: But it it was dead. It was it was dead there.
speaker-0: and honestly, I still think it is pretty shit. Like I don't think like one event win at my event or something just man Welcome back, Liquid. my god. But I think that helps. Also, Liquid, send some fucking merch next time to my fucking event or I will slap the shit out of you. I won't do that at all. I actually probably look at my feet when we Talk in person, but like please send me merch, like so I can sell it on your behalf. Just put a box there. I'm gonna just take it the smallest fee so that way my guy literally doesn't get fucking owned. And then you get to sell and make money and have fans. Because M80s chance started to sound a whole hell of a lot louder than the liquid ones in that building. And I would literally just attribute it to the fact they are the only team sending merch. Like I I know that might seem like a bit One sided or like one dimensional take on that one, but god damn it, sounds some merch. So
speaker-2: Especially when Liquid has such good merch, right? Like I wonder if that I wonder if it is some sort of corporate thing though, where Liquid is such a big organization, it's very easy for a team like A D Alright, let's make the decision. We're sending the we're sending our merch to Flomland where it's like Liquid might be waiting for someone to sign off.
speaker-0: In California, just drive it over like
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Steve was there. Their fucking CEO was literally there. Like he wanted to come check it out. Like, what do we like? come you can bring a box of merch. Like just bring a box of jerseys called a day. You know what I mean? Drop it off. Like you guys won't even notice it, and you just created a bunch of fans, you know? Like that. I mean, even just
speaker-2: Image, like any pictures that come out, the footage of the stream. It's like it's all A D flags, A D jerseys, like you know, and it comes back to one of the points we had in an interview with some of the players up there. We were talking like how much standing is there for you to want to be able to call yourself the best team in North America? And he's like, Yeah, for the for the players it's certainly a factor, but also for the organizations, it's really important to be branded as, you know, the best in America. Obviously, you want to s have the biggest fan base there too, and like just marketing side of things, you know, if you're at an event where everyone's wearing your jerseys, it's just I mean it's a it's a great pro a pr you know, great image you can throw out there and advertise your organization for.
speaker-0: Yeah. But enough glazing me. We'll move on from F L. I think that's that's a good one. We got through every Yeah. Yeah that's what I'm saying.
speaker-2: I got shouted at in the post production meeting for glazing you, so
speaker-0: Did you actually?
speaker-2: Yeah, Ed told me to shut
speaker-0: yeah, that's right, I remember. Yeah, there was yeah, you did deserve it though. You you you're piped down, buddy. No anyway. A little too big for your brick.
speaker-2: My brushes are pretty big though, Jason.
speaker-0: They are. Especially the more he gulfs. The all right, all right, all right, lock it, lock it. So it's something that I'm sure Jason, who's done fifteen podcasts, hasn't talked about enough. And since he bridged it this way with VRS, well how do you guys feel about the Sashi? How do you guys feel about BCG? Gimme gimme the do you guys think well first off, W Hundan, what a great guy. I I'd like to leave.
speaker-2: He's just involved in every fucking scandal, isn't
speaker-0: If you think about it, like he he actually, if you think about it this in a different way, Dinko, he really is the greatest person in Counter Strike because he is the reason why we found the coach bug. Granted, he didn't tell
speaker-1: Anyone?
speaker-0: tell anyone. But he also is the one that now abused VRS to the point where they had to do something about it, where they should have closed this after what Liquid did. Let's all just I I I think that was that was the moment where I don't think anybody saw what Liquid did, even if we thought it was a good trade. And everybody's like, nobody nobody was like, Yeah, this isn't gonna open up Pandora's box. Like we all knew kind of what was lingering there. And that I I kind of get mad at Valve actually for that one, which is like I think they personally my take is like they got this situation right. I think they but the problem was created by them. And I don't just mean by having the loophole to begin with, that was used by like Liquid and some of the others in the previous sale.
speaker-1: Closing it in the two years they have the chance.
speaker-0: Yes, exactly. Like clearly after what happened before Cologne, everybody knew what is now possible. As soon as soon as BCG got Mazino, everybody's cracking jokes. They're just gonna go to Asia if they can't make it, they're just gonna do it. And like that's exactly what they did. It's not that and I always feel like I'm dunking on ASAP as a player when I mention this, but BCG for the amount of money that they have could have. Sign any European player. They were not signing ASAP in a different scenario. And that's not to to hate on him, but that is very clearly why they did it. And there's nothing wrong with that, because that was an established loophole that Valve left open. They literally saw it and they're like, Yeah, that's fair game. And it was BCG the most egregious version of this? No, it wasn't. So, like, that's why it's like they basically did what was previously done in the last major cycle, and then you left it open, didn't close it. And then Hyden came along, our Counter Strike Savior, and did whatever the fuck's in the same set. Fuck it. Sorry, I'll stop. I'll stop. I was just trying to I actually didn't think I'd get Dinko revved up on that one. I was hoping to get Jason a little bit more now.
speaker-1: No, like you said, I've already I've already had this conversation for
speaker-0: Yeah, mo most is broken as a human. Yeah, I think they got I think they got this situation right, but I kinda get mad because it it was only left there because they they saw it and were like, nah, nothing bad will happen. But as soon like the whole community knew as soon as PCG got Mazinho, like we like the it was a joke, but it was the truth, right? Like that's why it was funny. Is We all knew if if push came to shove when Europe when Europe was completely out of reach, which it was, they're gonna drop electronic. And they did. Like i i that's a they did exactly what everybody expected them.
speaker-2: I think it's the right move to drop electronics.
speaker-0: it was. But like they also would have signed a European player. Like you're gonna tell me right now they couldn't have just like thrown a bag of some you know what I mean? Like you now have Mizinho, you have Senzu, you have Simple. You're gonna tell me right now BCG just doesn't have like the the pull to get one more player, right? And just basically Falcons it where you have like the you know, you can you're now in that position, at least in my mind, where You have the players that are there to attract other players. You have enough of them. Like, I don't think actually, because of where Simple left off in the game, he couldn't have that same effect that Nico did, I think. And he didn't have that relationship like with like where Nico can bring modesty from G2. but now that you have Senzu and Mazinho there, people that like would want to join that team, like because they know the talent that's there, plus the salary that you're gonna get with that. Without this loophole they would have gone to you. Like I I I refuse to believe any other scenario like
speaker-2: I I think they they write up this big message, this big appeal, saying that they've gone for the one of the most promising players in the Asian and Oceanic region. And you know, ASAP is that. You know, he is one of the standout players in the region or
speaker-0: Look good when when I've seen his games. Like it's just a good thing. Yeah.
speaker-2: He he's definitely talented. It j they just never would have gotten him if it wasn't for this scenario. Then there is obviously two ways of looking at it. You can find the positive and like look at the more like optimistic worldview and be the VRS has led to players like ASAP getting opportunities when the other w otherwise wouldn't and it's his time to prove himself. But you
speaker-1: Only if they're real opportunities and not like a three month opportunity.
speaker-2: They they have now shot themselves in the foot. They do have to keep him for the next major cycle. Like they've got to do it just with the imaging of everything.
speaker-1: They don't have to.
speaker-0: They don't have to make it.
speaker-2: I guess you're right. They could just be scumbags. But I guess the other side of things for Sashi, though, it's like Dexter came out and made that tweet where he was like, Yeah, they offered me the same. The the deal is they just kick you after the major. And it's like that is just bullshit, man. Like the fact that you're gonna try and do that is just you're ripping up a team in Australia. You're giving these players two month contract just to use them to get into the major
speaker-1: Didn't they like change it players' nationality from like Danish to Vietnamese or something?
speaker-2: So I read I've read conflicting re reports about that though. Like the player is he was Annalele. He's like he's always been Vietnamese, but he's just been he's been on like a residence visa or something in Denmark. He's not actually Danish. he was just playing out of Denmark, so I don't I don't know like that's what people are saying, like he's he's actually
speaker-0: I'm just gonna have to learn way too much about this shit as a CS person. It kinda pisses me off. Anyway, continue. Maybe
speaker-1: You don't have to.
speaker-2: But the end of it.
speaker-0: the takes would be better actually.
speaker-2: The short of it is it's a shitty thing to do because Sashi are not good enough to qualify for a major. You've gone out, you've got enough points because you're playing in European tournaments. You're taking your VRS points from Europe, you're bringing them to Asia, and you're fucking over the Asian teams who already are in a position to try and qualify for the major and ruining the dreams of like five to six other people in the team below you in the ranking. So I think it's absolutely bullshit and should not be allowed. And I think Valve. you know, the change comes through. It would have probably as much as it would have sucked, you know, in you know, there's always as a fan of CS, I guess you want to see simple at the major, but also you want to see simple fucking qualify for the major, not just get through the back door, right? You don't want to see the greatest player of all time have to use the back door to try and get into the major. I mean, it'll still be entertaining when he's there or whatever and it's gonna draw eyeballs and be good for the product. But in general, it's like from a purist standpoint, You want to see Simple actually qualify for it. You want to see these legendary players qualify for the the major. You know, two of the players at BC Game were in the major final in Austin. You know, you have Magisku's on that Astralis team, and Simple is the greatest player of all time. Like, come on. If they can't qualif if they have to go through the Asian back door, it's absolutely insane. So I just think it's just unfair the fact that you're going to abuse the system, the VRS system. It is there to abuse, apparently. Luckily, Valve made that change now. but it is, it was a little strange to see BC game. get let off for it. but they have to they have to commit to ASAP now for a for a bit, otherwise, I mean, you're just gonna have to say this is an absolute scumbag maneuver.
speaker-0: Do you think Valve made say something like that they gotta stay in I mean, I I I don't like we all know kind of I I don't know, I don't see Valve doing that, but I just was curious if you think there's maybe a a w a scenario where they're like, listen, you gotta stay for the Asia region, the next one?
speaker-1: Maybe, but I'd be surprised 'cause Valve doesn't usually like getting their hands that dirty and that involved.
speaker-0: Well I know, but they got into all of this, which was kind of surprising.
speaker-1: So their hand was kind of force in this situation, right? So like you probably had a lot of stakeholders in the Asian region fucking reaching out, like whether it's TOs, whether it's teams, whether it's people investing in the region, you probably had a lot of a lot of people raising hell in the emails to
speaker-0: Everybody. No probably Europeans too, like wondering what the fuck is
speaker-1: Yeah, when I mean when Nico rolls out of bed and makes a fucking issue of it, you know, he he he doesn't speak up too much on these things either. So I mean even when he's doing it, you know it's a huge problem. Yeah, I mean they handled it in the most valve way possible, which is exactly how they have done everything, which is just like here's the fucking hammer that we're gonna drop in everyone's lap and we don't give a fuck if it's an inconvenient timing, but if you guys are gonna make us get involved, we're just gonna fucking handle this shit right now. I think the biggest thing I hate about it is like it forces us to make like a judgment call on on a situation between BCG and Sashi, right? 'Cause I feel like BCG's again, that roster move, well, I agree. I don't think they would ever be looking at ASAP in like a in a different in a different scenario. I think it's more defensible as a counter strike move that that it that it's a that it's an actual roster change that they would want to do. But that's like a hard thing to fucking argue when you're just kind of taking people out of the major. So I don't know. I'm I'm really I'm really pretty biased in this scenario 'cause I've tried to like kinda think it through and I I can't get past I don't give a fuck fuck Hundan.
speaker-0: Yeah. Def valid. No that yeah.
speaker-1: Like I can't I can't get past that. Like fuck it.
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: If you if you are if you want to be part of the counter strike scene and you want to be a player in the counter strike scene, a player, a team owner, a tea get the fuck away from Hamden. There's nothing good that can come from it. Like I don't know like I don't I don't know what else to say. So for me, I'm like I hate the fact that now these players on Sashi who have worked hard and I don't maybe they were in on it, maybe it's not even their fucking decision of how this all played out on the side. Maybe that is organized but I d I don't know. So like I hate that potentially their opportunity is ruined. I hate that they've done this to take away opportunity from teams in the Asian region who have been competing. But at the end of the day, when your coach is like the most notorious cheater in CSGO, has already shown he's got a terrible way of dealing like t manipulating players to try and get out of the cheating scandal in the first place, now involved in this scandal, what are we still doing associating with him? Stop.
speaker-0: Can we just be honest though? Look at his HL TV picture. Does it not give you Disney villain vibes? Like I'm telling you right now.
speaker-2: He's got that.
speaker-1: Fucking does.
speaker-2: I'm going to steal the Asian spots from No, I mean it's this feels like it, man. It's like it's just another controversial I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it was a controversial.
speaker-0: Can we put the whole class because every fucking organization has worked with him after all of that shit? Like can we What's going
speaker-1: I mean it's
speaker-0: on, Denmark? What the fuck y'all doing? What the hell is this?
speaker-1: Actually I forgot about that. Didn't you have that whole like leaking the strat book to astrologist thing as well?
speaker-0: Don't forget don't forget Danish Nico. Like don't forget the fucking coach mug, don't forget stealing strats, this motherfucker's trying to steal spots. Like what the hell are we doing at Denmark, bro? You guys got boarding schools that counterstruck. Get the fuck get this shit out of here. Like figure this out. You guys
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: bro is a stain over there. Like fucking handle it.
speaker-2: Yeah. Well you know what? It is kind of crazy to know like, there's a controversy, Valva getting involved. Hundan's the coach of the team makes complete sense. Like I was like, here we go. I don't watch sashy games, not gonna lie. So that was pretty not shocking, but just kind of morbidly funny, I suppose. I think the other side of things is like the the BC game one, it is clear like what they've done, they're playing the system. Right. But it isn't such an abuse of the system as what Sashi I mean it is. It is. It certainly is. But but I think when you add the nuance and you look at it, it's like, okay, they already had two Asian players on the team, right? Adding one Asian player to the team is good. Right? In terms of compared to Sashi, where it's like We have now changed the region of the player on our team to his actual nationality, and we are going to go sign these two Australian players. We're not even hiring three new Asian players that are applying in the Asian region. We're just taking two over for a two month contract. We're gonna fire after this, gonna get our sticker money, gonna give us some of that sticker.
speaker-0: Literally tweeted on two.
speaker-2: And it's like just get they they've ruined I'm glad I'm so glad Valve did
speaker-0: Literally in the tweet they were like, We're gonna try this out for a bit or like a month. Like it was I know, it forced Valve's hand, but like it was crazy
speaker-1: I wish Valve would have said absolutely. Yeah, you have zero VRS. Good luck in the next three weeks. I wish that's what I thought I was gonna wake up to Valve saying today, to be honest with you. I didn't think they would get an exception.
speaker-2: I would love
speaker-0: no, I was talking about Sashi. I was talking about Sashi.
speaker-1: sorry, I thought you were on the big street. Yeah no.
speaker-2: I I think we should just as a I think I don't think anybody would care. can we just like permaban Hundan from involvement in majors? I mean that would just be good.
speaker-0: That was
speaker-2: Any team with Hundred involved can't get VRS points. Ineligible RNA.
speaker-0: Head of C S two, Hyundan, and I was like, my fucking god.
speaker-1: Maybe change the fucking heading.
speaker-0: Yeah, was like, holy f I was this all makes sense now. Now we're in the yeah, I understand now. No, but I you know, the the nuance the and we love some nuance around here with BCG is it never started that way. We always knew it could be a possibility, and I think that's the biggest reason why. Like it doesn't I think that's why, at least for me, I f the biggest reason why is they didn't start with the intention of trying to go to Asia. I just think they got Senzu. And then when they were able to get Mazinho, then it's like, okay, well, that's an option now, right? Like, but I they clearly didn't have like maybe that was their plan all along, maybe they thought they get but we don't really know that. Outside looking in though, it started with just one player. And it's a really fucking good Asian player. It's not like they went and just got a you know, some guy for like like like somebody in Australia for a bit. No, you got like basically one of the best riflers in the world on your team. And then you got went and got one of the best anchors in the world, and he's also Asian and there were teammates. And now you have the option, right? And I just think that's such a big distinction of what happened there.
speaker-2: Different. I mean, they are doing the same thing, just not as egregiously. And b both are bad. Both are
speaker-0: It shouldn't ha but and once again, fuck you Valve, for like seeing this and being sitting on your hands a little bit because you did see it and you were like, Yeah, nothing bad'll happen there, but we all knew. We all knew. It didn't even last one fucking major.
speaker-2: Let's not act like he
speaker-0: shout out W Hundred man, how is it?
speaker-2: also I do want to say, like I have to also be objectively fair. Like he can't be the you know he wasn't the only one that would make this decision. There's more people involved. He's just always
speaker-0: I the CEO from Sashi did not do himself any fucking favors with that interview pro He's like, What's the problem? I just want to get his that's the goal. Get into the major. Don't care. Like this is what we're doing. All right,
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: all right. That's enough. That's you guys have probably talked about that at nauseum at at different times. We can leave it there. Let's let's get into what you guys have been up to. Low little pro league, man. yeah.
speaker-2: I've been out to a lot of a lot of things already.
speaker-0: Yeah, let's yeah, well I mean might as well get into it a little bit. There's actually been some fun stuff this pro league, I feel like. That's
speaker-2: Were you watching the MMD game, Spirit game last night?
speaker-0: Fuck. Dude, Dinko, you literally called it by the way. did anybody send you the clip? No, no, like when you mention me complaining about spams, but I was celebrating when Lake did the spam. I don't know, Chris, do you have it? Yeah. He might have it. The that was it. I was like, this motherfucker's watching my stream. You streamed me like a hundred percent. That is exactly what I was doing.
speaker-2: I had that feeling like instead I was like, he's gonna love this spam. he's gonna love this spam.
speaker-0: I did love that. I even said I was like, you know, fuck the spams, but man, I love it right now and then you're like, you know, if Lom's watching this, he probably loves this one right now.
speaker-2: That's a good that's actually good content. That's good content, right.
speaker-1: Do you guys wanna talk about how how how A D played the w one V threes on America's map? You guys wanna discuss that? Both
speaker-0: shut up, Jason.
speaker-1: of Both of them. I let's we can go over the first one if you want.
speaker-0: Get better at casting. It was a one V four, idiot. sorry.
speaker-2: It was even worse. Swisher had an absolute nightmare.
speaker-0: That was our map, god damn it, that was it, they stole it from us
speaker-2: But Jason, did they not play their best counter strike on cash?
speaker-0: They look like a completely different team on Cash compared to Dust Two.
speaker-1: I I don't want to make that judgment call, they look like ass.
speaker-2: Ten rounds, Jason. Ten whole rounds, double figures. Four rounds more than that does two.
speaker-1: I don't care how many rounds you get, if you lose two or if you lose a one V three and a one V four,
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-1: it doesn't matter.
speaker-0: The eye test was so bad too. It's not like a it wasn't like they're just kinda missing, Lake goes too far out the door, s Slack's gonna shoot him once in the toe, and Magic's just can't believe that they just can't shoot him. Like and that was literally his own face.
speaker-2: Really less like I'll even break my mouse for you guys.
speaker-0: I dude, it like the fact that he won V four and he like didn't have any real like he's just like what?
speaker-1: I mean it was so it was so clear in the way that game was being played. Like if you go if you go watch that back, the amount of ego and disrespect Spirit was playing with
speaker-2: Dog yelling.
speaker-1: was so unreasonable. Like watching some of the plays they were trying to force and make, it was just like they were playing FPL.
speaker-0: Well on Dust 2, yes. I think on Cash it did get real
speaker-1: They opened it up that way in cash. Yeah, they they did. They did a little bit. Yeah.
speaker-2: I think.
speaker-0: But I agree with you. The dusty one I was like mother of God. I was
speaker-1: Yeah, they didn't give a fuck.
speaker-0: Dog didn't pause once in lower one round and he just like was basically out mid through lower in like fifteen seconds.
speaker-2: Yeah, that I think Ale Alex highlighted that during the cast. He was like, Well, he's just sk skipping all his usual steps. He's just running to the spot he needs to be at 'cause he doesn't care. yeah, that that happened. It was cool. It was you know, it was kinda funny also just having Donk get up and yell across at them. that was
speaker-0: Shout out North America. We we bring out the best in people, you know? yeah, I think there you go. Chris linked it for you, Dinko. Din
speaker-2: Okay, I'll take a look at this and then
speaker-0: Dinko c streamstar me, Jason, when when Lake got the spam on cash, it was actually perfect. Not by the link. No, it's in this in this chat room, right? In the river side. Yeah, yeah,
speaker-2: Okay, okay.
speaker-0: yeah. But I don't know I I actually did like how MD played on cash, but yes, the one V three, one V four and the nature with the eye test was horrible. Like I'm not gonna
speaker-1: My only issue with the cash performance was like there's some cool things to pick from it and and I'm being a little bit harsh. I could I could speak positively because they did play better on cash, but I felt like when I was watching it, I couldn't shake the feeling that they were so like locked in on like a hardcore anti strat of team spirit that it's like hard to hard to like judge. Like I felt I felt like they had so many so many plans and moves and set up prepared just for the game, which is is not a criticism, obviously, but like that's not the cash game we're gonna see out of them more often than not. They came into that as qualification and said we're gonna just fucking Grind demos of spirits cash and be ready for everything, it felt.
speaker-2: Yeah. I mean it's not surprising. It's not surprising to see eighty lose the spirit on the final day at group C P so I don't think there's any breaking news there. I think for for eighty it was good that they got the win versus legacy. That's massive for their VRS points. you know, obviously the elephant in the room with legacy is the fact that art isn't there. So, you know, take your opportunity that was in front of you. and and Eddy did that, so made it to the final
speaker-0: it well too to be fair. That was like a I don't want to they they actually had a one v three I think in two of those maps as well. They they get one V three and I feel like more I don't know if it's 'cause I just watched the A D games, but I swear they have a quota to like lose one one v three per series at least. Maybe per month. Well I think that's the problem is I think they actually I think some of them are trying to I mean it's very clear that Lake is trying to remain confident to the point where it's fake. where like there was twice where in the both of those scenarios Lake basically overflanked. And whether not even just walking out the door. I mean like the next one with Shiro from Quad, you have two players still at truck, you don't have the time yet a main, and even if you do, you can't risk it. Like and Pikium I feel like you're trying to prove to yourself and that your teammates that like you're just confident and we're eighty and we're just gonna peek and like we're but it's just so clearly not cemented and in good decision making where you truly believe it because you would just wait until the guys come from truck. And I feel like so I feel like you have players like Lake who are trying to kind of like inject confidence into those situations with how they're playing, but in reality They're just making it worse. And then on the other side of it, I think the other one's so clearly like the Magic's one v four, you can see it. Lake fucks up on his, he he tries to do too much, gets caught in the middle of two thoughts, blows up the whole fucking moment, make turns it into now an actual scenario, dies, and then you can immediately tell that the highway players, both of them, like a fucking vice grip, just could not keep together. Like they were peeking together, but then they weren't like shooting well. Like they weren't actually giving themselves opportunities to take the fight versus magic. So like, shit, I don't want to be the one that dies here. my god. But like you're double peeking. Just fucking shoot him. And they dropped like two mags on a guy and did like ten damage. And then Slax like, Well, I guess I'm in a one v one now where I gotta shoot this guy who's supposed to be low and I don't know where he's at. And then you died. I feel like you can literally in that magics 1v4 you can see everything that's wrong with eighty in those scenarios and they're mental. Like that's like the hardest part. And why the I it's it looks bad, but then when you realize like what's happening in those rounds, it continuously happens on every single map in and manifests in the same exact way, is so painful because those are the moments where like as CS players and as people that watch the game, I think you guys would agree. You very rarely see teams break out of that. Like once they're in that those types of modes
speaker-1: That's that team needs permanent. That team needs rounds to change.
speaker-0: That's right. Yeah, exactly. And and the only way that and solution we found in the Counter Strike community, and it's why they happen so often compared to like other sports, I feel like, is a roster change. Because mentally we've never really seen teams break through that. You know? Once they once they're in that wall of like I mean honestly that was so long ago Jason, I don't really wanna I mean no, I like I actually just don't wanna like say some bullshit. Like I'm like maybe I just remember them taking a break, not necessarily that they were
speaker-1: The the Danish lineups like back in early like CSGO were always getting like second, third place. They'd always have Yeah,
speaker-0: you mean like that? Okay.
speaker-1: and then the and then they broke through it eventually, right?
speaker-0: Okay, so you just compared eighty to the team that eventually became one of the most winning rosters.
speaker-1: I just gave you an example of when a team broke through the fucking difficulty.
speaker-0: Yeah. Is that an alfogato, by the way, Jason? Do you know if you put on top of it?
speaker-1: No
speaker-0: I don't know why, I just some sip that I just I just alright, my god.
speaker-1: I it's actually whiskey, to be fair, but
speaker-0: shit. That that that actually makes way more sense for you. Sorry, I just got completely derailed but I saw
speaker-1: There's a little there's a little Afogato inside joke that Flam just really fucking tickles his button.
speaker-0: Yeah yeah, Jason explained to an Italian person at an Italian restaurant that owns the Italian restaurant what an alpha gotta was. He mansplained it. It was fantastic, huh?
speaker-1: I just wanted to make sure where I come from, not everyone knows where an alfogato is, so I I just I just said, Can I just get some ice cream with a shot of espresso on top? That's it. I didn't explain it. I just said can I get
speaker-0: He was having conversations. He was drinking wine. He's like, nah, man, like do you have
speaker-1: I have
speaker-0: Ken
speaker-2: Excuse the espresso ice cream, girlato. no, it was such a good time. That was a good good meal as well. Thank you, Flawn. I that would be my main takeaway is the food was very good from FML.
speaker-1: Or even sitting down Flaming, the dog's still going crazy.
speaker-2: Yeah,
speaker-1: He needs he needs us to feel time.
speaker-2: I'm gonna I'm gonna s I'm gonna drift us away from North American Counter Strike. I think we've had enough of that now, Jason.
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-2: You have you had enough of North American Counter Strike? You had your
speaker-1: I've been in it for twenty five years, dude. I'm I'm good.
speaker-2: So we move on to a lot more positive thing. Let's talk about Navi.
speaker-1: Fuck, so I I actually I'll take it one step further. I think they looked good.
speaker-2: Yeah, I I think they did look good. And and you know what? The the thing about Navi is I feel like they've had two runs now with the ESL Swiss system back to back. I just feel like it's brutal. Cologne was the obviously the first time out. The IM Cologne Major they come in after winning Atlanta. And we have a lot of you know positive ex expectations about Navi. They kind of figured it out, they're looking good. Yeah, they're going to Cologne and they got up pretty early. It's the exact same run as they had here at at EPL. It which is they get off to start
speaker-1: Eliminated right before the in the playoff call.
speaker-2: then they then they play Falcons in like one of the most important games towards the end of the see the Swiss system. And they they have to play all the difficult teams on the way and then they just about miss out on some game they they should have won in the final match.
speaker-1: It's like it's like the Navi thing is like you know the the hidden fucking angle between this what their whole like nosedive and the VRS standings and some of this like poor poor performances in terms of where they're placing at events is like they're losing to just the best teams in the world. They had the upset over or they got beat by NRG, which is the big blemish and the big lucky stain on that kind of record. But for the most part, they're losing to like the other top teams in the world. Here again, it's Falcons and Vitality. And you point out it, and like obviously Two two game to qualify to the playoffs against Paravision. That's a game you have to fucking win. Like there's no way to get around that. But I don't think that's any kind of like crazy, egregious loss that's like this team does actually fucking
speaker-0: Navi.
speaker-2: Yeah, and it's the exact same thing at Cologne too, right? I'll just talk about their Cologne run. They start, they they play Spirit, they lose to Spirit 2-0. Fair enough. They beat Legacy 2-0. They beat Mongols 2-1. They lose to Falcons 2-1, and then they have one last chance to try and qualify into the next stage of the major, and they lose to G2 2 1. So
speaker-1: It's unpious.
speaker-2: it's the same scenario where it's like, yes, should Navi beat G2? Probably. But also It's an understandable loss. Like it's not one that's like shocking out of this world and all the realms of possibility, right? Same thing here with it this I think this Paravision
speaker-0: Favorite team.
speaker-2: is a little different. I th I feel like they definitely should have got the win here, but this is a Paravision team that are fired up. They always are have been a difficult team for so many
speaker-1: Also also it's like it came down to a last second fucking diffuse. Which every time.
speaker-2: Eleven eleven. Who hasn't lost a game to Jane with the last second of use? It feels like that happens to everybody. So
speaker-0: Those are the those are the real Jam games right there. The the Para Vision special, the James special, which is like you're always right there. You get to bring it all the way back, and then for whatever reason, those last few rounds just feel like the major versus James. If the if you're if you let them get in position where they can drag out the game like that, I feel like whatever it is, it's like he's got like one little last card that he's been like waiting to play. Or like he he just knows how to like tip it slightly too. It's not even like you know We stacked like a perfect bomb site. Sometimes it is, but I I don't know. They just have like crazy resilience in those. And I think what I think of like I I know I had to step away for a moment, but Navi did look better this event. It was kind of but That was our sentiment still disappointing. I mean it's Navi, right? Like what the fuck are we doing at this point? You know. But I I feel like Navi is even when if Blade you know, I keep referencing the Blade interview where he's like, Yeah, we look to try to get players and you know, it's rumored they try to get some of the foot players and they wouldn't go and That isn't really that one to me isn't really an indication of Navi. because I feel like they've that team's turned down a lot of offers from everybody and they've very clearly want to stick together. So that I think that isn't a Navi isn't good enough to get players like Foot. I think that's just a unique team.
speaker-1: That's also a high bar that Blade would set to get a player in as well. He's not just gonna pick up some fucking asshole just to make a roster change, you know?
speaker-0: Well, more the point I was gonna go with actually is more so I feel like it's more an indication of what's going on in Counter Strike where I feel like people are a little bit more reserved with their moves in general. This isn't the V C money flying around days, right? Like the the only orgs that are kind of wheeling and dealing like that are are you an online crypto casino? Do you have the Saudi infinite money glitch, right? Like those are the only two that are making moves like that, which is what we are kind of used to, honestly. Back in the day. But now I feel like everything is much more reserved. The VRS makes things very convoluted in terms of like what's your timing of when you're gonna make the player change because there's really like a l just
speaker-1: Although not an inner
speaker-0: interesting to think about. Well
speaker-1: I mean we didn't get into that side of the conversation. I don't I don't really want to at the moment just because yeah, I don't know the details all behind it well enough to have a conversation, but yeah, the idea that now you have to be within a region for three months to be able to get invites for that region. It feels like that isn't going to make like a transfer window necessarily, but it's gonna put like a a transfer window in. You know, I I don't know what to call it, but it feels like that is going to target like a certain stage in the calendar of like this is where it's safe to make a change. You know what I mean?
speaker-2: Yeah. The most optimal point of the year to to make transfers, you know, you you might say like there's an opening maybe like of a window of opportunity there, Jason, for to make transfers.
speaker-1: Yeah, some would say a window. Transfer window would say.
speaker-0: Transfer okay. Some some may allegedly say it.
speaker-1: No possibly.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: No, that was actually me that derailed it, so you chill over there, Flom. That one's on Yeah, that's fucking my shit.
speaker-2: Don't take the credit for the derailing. Jason's job.
speaker-0: Well, so I mean we could go back to Paravision though. I mean like what do you guys think about this so odd? Like liking it, disliking it, what are we thinking?
speaker-1: I got two things. I'm I'm I'm liking that they're having success. I love the fucking Hobbit return fucking arc. I'm not even gonna call it a redemption arc, but I fucking love watching Hobbit come back in. Did you watch I don't know, did you stick around and watch the post game interview after they won that with Deston and Hobbit? That like dude I I couldn't I couldn't look away. That was like the coolest interview 'cause you could like see the fucking emotion. Hobbit's there off I didn't I didn't think I was gonna be here. And Deston, like the day before, we had a segment where where we were like the producer
speaker-2: Sigment.
speaker-1: Yeah, we had a sponsor segment. So the rooster came and said there's no winners' interview. We have to be really quick on this and move on to the sponsor segment. And Deston was so fucking jacked up after the win, he just walked into the set on the couch and just sat down and started talking. And it was like and it's like obviously we're gonna do it, but like that's the kind of shit I love seeing is like those guys who have been invested in like watching like the emotion when they make like a big win or when that like moment hits them that they're like, Holy fuck, I did it. but Paravision's cool for a lot of reasons. There's that angle to it. you know I I think one of the big ones, the nice thing is in that Navi matchup specifically, they played like a really faster paced, aggressive, like poppier style of counter strike for a team that we usually classify as like slow and boring. And I thought that was very cool. That had that had to throw Navi for a fucking loop, you know what I mean? which I think is a really cool thing to be able to to bring in if you're Paravision. I was doing the podcast for ESL today, with some of the quarterfinal players. We had we had flames up on and he was he was mentioning we were we were asking about what it's like to play against Paravision and he was just like he was like, Bro, I get fucking bored. He was just telling us straight up inside the server. He's I get bored playing these guys. Like it's so slow, it's so quiet, there's nothing going on. I want the chaos. I want to get stuck into it. But so like there's there's this like unique thing that James has always had that's been like pretty consistent amongst the teams that he's led and played in, where Anders and I used to talk about this when we casted back in the day where it feels like James in Paravision are so good at getting even the best teams in the world, even the teams that we would say are better than them, they're so good at getting those teams to play Parvision Counter Strike. And I think that's the great strength that Jame and Paravision bring to the table is when they step into the server, no matter who they're up against, on some level you're dancing to their tune. You know, like that that team just knows how to make things uncomfortable inside the server for their opponents.
speaker-2: I mean if you look at you know, look at some of the games that we we've seen, especially I like watching their dust too, where they would just walk up mid silently, like a whole way up mid and just walk to the B bomb site and the B player isn't even looking. And it's like, how do you even deal with that? Like you you can't get a feel for them, you can't feel the timings, you can't consistently build like tell find tells. You know, we hear so much of this about Players now like waiting to find a tell. These top five teams make it really difficult to find tells. I think Paravision make do great at that. I mean, you could see so many teams just feel so uncomfortable, especially on CT side, of just when to cover what, when to rotate, when to look where. And they just suddenly there's two players who've walked the whole way up the B ramp, and you've got to deal with that on the fly and deal with the chaos that comes with it. So yeah, they play a very unique brand of counter-strike, and I think it's fascinating that James and Dastan have been able to do this with so many different players. obviously feeling like they needed to bring in a little bit more of the experience now to 'cause it it wasn't going as well as they would have liked with the younger players, but I think
speaker-1: You can also tell how much more comfortable James to your point now that he has those experienced players, where I think he's even said either in like vlogs or interviews, like he actually feels like he can call the kind of counter strike he wants to because he's got more faith in someone like Hobbit, someone like Flit to make the right decision in the situation. And he doesn't have to sit there and worry that they're gonna overpeak or not actually step into the action when it's their time. So yeah, they they seem they're hitting a really good level. And they're doing it at a very good time as the major's right around the corner. So Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting to see how high they can push their ceiling heading into Singapore and and see what that can do for them.
speaker-0: It is interesting that you guys mentioned like what they can do with the players because I agree with everything you guys said, but also at the same time it's I feel like it you can always make the point it's detrimental. And I feel like that's actually where Paravision's kind of struggled and why we've seen them fall off is I do think that I think the game has evolved, but I also feel like it is still such a unique team to play for that it requires the right people to be in that team to have success. And that's where I'm gonna segue it to one win and Belchinock absolutely looking fantastic for one win. And
speaker-1: Yeah, they were
speaker-0: Yeah, and I just feel like it's so nice. It's so nice to see
speaker-2: Call the one. The one. That's what we have to call them now for the playoffs. They'll called the one.
speaker-1: The one and we have the same tradition.
speaker-0: Well,
speaker-2: P vision. Yes, P vision and the one. That's the name one wouldn't have chosen for them to be called. The one.
speaker-0: So they're the one.
speaker-1: That's not gonna break my fucking brain at all.
speaker-0: The one and P vision, but I just I I don't know, man. I actually unfortunately I I really didn't feel all that great. so I missed the spirit one one or sorry, the one game. and but I I watched some of it after and I was catching like Belchernock lifts comfortable, Axile. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like they're all back, but it is really nice to see these players that I feel like we all know what they're capable of essentially playing the way we know they're capable of all on a team together now because if they can even maintain like some of this, they're gonna basically, in my mind, immediately be a top 20, top 15 team at all times. if they can maintain that individual level. And I just thought it was interesting to think about, you know, we're talking about how you need those veteran players now that it makes Jay more comfortable. But also like I think Paravision really failed some of those younger players and developing them. And I actually don't think that they did a a fantastic job in that sense. I think they did a good job of identifying talent, but the actual development of them I think is tough when you consider how unique and specific James plays the game. And that's where having those more experienced players can help. But it's so nice to see when those players can no longer be on that team have success outside of it. Because I think the natural assumption is is Especially when you have such a known IGL as James, people will kind of write you off after you don't succeed with them. Is even if it you you acknowledge that he's unique, it's like, well you played with Para Vision and Jame and they they plucked you out and you were you were supposed to be like, you know, ascending to the top and then you were cut. Like I feel like a lot of people kind of look down on you for the for a while. Like after that time. Like if the IGL is like known and established and kind of revered in like a way that like you are a good IGL, if you are removed from that team as a player and people still feel the same way about that IGL, it it it's like a stain almost or like a just it kind of carries with you a little bit. And to see public immediately do well, it it's it's quite nice.
speaker-1: I think that staying is with you publicly, but I think within within the the professional scene I don't think it would be there to that same extent. Although yes people have had different different different opinions on you already for for varying reasons and yeah in a lot of ways pro players are a lot more harsh than we are in public about their their colleagues and different teams. In different ways. but yeah, you're right. It's cool to see Bel Shannot go over there. I mean, whenever you have a team like that with James and have like such a disparity in terms of experience, the the whole question is how much patience does the veteran have? That's always the question in those teams, is how how long are they willing to wait? We when I when I when I joined Liquid as a coach, I could tell very much that like guys like Stewie and guys like Alige were kind of like a w in a win now mentality. We're like we You we aren't far removed from our grand slam run. We feel like we should be able to get back to the top relatively quickly and soon and and we wanna be winning now and we wanna be challenging for trophies now. But Grimm was very much in like a learning phase of like, Bro, I need some fucking time to figure this
speaker-0: And you're putting that pit.
speaker-1: Yeah. So like it when you have those when you have the expectations at such a different level, that's where things start to get a little bit sketchy 'cause the the the veterans get less forgiving in the mistakes you're making and less forgiving and and how you're not picking things up fast enough and more critical of what you're doing and and that's when things can spiral out of control and I'm I imagine that w that's exactly what happened in Paravision. Was it just got to a point where it was like They were good out of the gate. You know, they surprised us at at the major back in Budapest. They won the event earlier this year, but they couldn't follow up those results. And then those results become, well, we're not winning because you guys are making stupid, you know, like inexperienced mistakes. And the frustration that comes from watching seemingly minor mistakes devastate their gameplay, that's that's where you eventually get to the point where you're like, We need to bring in veterans. Like it's it'd you just hit the point where it's like I can't even think about the skill at the moment. I need to bring in someone who's not gonna make this stupid push.
speaker-2: I think we got to see it's the wheel starting to come off that team, Jason. We were casting in the PGL Bucharest last year, one of the one of the two Bucharests. And we got to see moments where they were meant to throw a smoke, but they would throw a flash on the ground, or like maybe the other way around. Like there was just weird moments that just seemed like they weren't comfortable. And then that was the event where Dashtank got on the couch right after and went on to rant about how like no one's safe. I wish I could kick them all right now. You know, and that obviously doesn't seem like the best environment. Very different couch dash down we've had here. No
speaker-1: But it's so easy from the outside to be critical of that when you don't see the frustration on the inside and you don't see the process on the inside. Like that's one of those things where it's like, Yeah, I agree, Desan shouldn't be saying that publicly but also he's a fucking human in a competitive environment and fucking frustrations rise up and shit comes out and should
speaker-2: I think also there's gotta be an element of frustration if you're dasting
speaker-0: Shit does come out from Dustin though. Just perfect
speaker-1: Yeah. I'm not saying I'm not saying this. But you know what? He's also he's also one of the best fucking coaches we have to talk to about the game and about the team and about the environment.
speaker-0: he loves that.
speaker-2: That's my like next point is just the fact that it I'd imagine it is very frustrating if you are Dastan and James and you've been to you've won a major, you've been to major finals, you know, you've had so many runs for such a long period of time, you know your system works, and you're talking to these young guys who are coming up and they're not buying into your system. You're like, guys, you have been given the opportunity to play on a team with us, like you you have to kind of buy into our system and and I'm sure that's a little bit frustrating.
speaker-1: I'll say I'll say that also I think there's a lot of fucking grace that the the veterans can come down to meet the rookies more at their level. Like they're the it's a two way street as well. And I think there's some experience struggle with that.
speaker-0: Yes, I I completely agree. I think a lot of there's a lot a lot of lack of leadership, honestly, in and esports in general. That's why I think the IGLs that we see be so so successful that ESL put together for that round table, you could see the difference and the understanding that it's not just about It's not just about calling. Like yeah, being a shot caller is great, but if you can't lead the people with you, it's it's a human aspect that you have to be able to manage as well. And if you can't do that then you won't be a a successful IGL at the highest level, not consistently anyway.
speaker-2: Look at the Kiyosuke and and Kerrigan combination. Like how much more comfortables Kiyosuke look since Kerrigan joined the team, you know, just like his emotions are much more balanced. He looks like he's having a great time in the survey. He's playing the sights with Karrigan on some maps too. So cool to see, you know, the he is a player that truly understands like how he needs to be around these young players, like what their limits are, what they need to have developed and and Karrigan's so good at that. So yeah, I think that's a good example of of the importance of the leadership and sort of being a people person in that side of things. And I think I think that moves me on to Falcons though. I think they actually look pretty good at times. And then there's times where Falcons just maybe it's have a couple more Falcons rounds out on the pile. But for the most part, I've really enjoyed watching them at this event.
speaker-0: The high test of Falcons to me reminds me of how they looked when they didn't win the major. W that's that's what this version of Falcons looked like to me. The
speaker-2: Like pre major.
speaker-0: The Yeah, like the we're gonna probably make it to the finals, but we we I don't know, they don't look Yeah, there's something about it. I don't know how to describe it. And it's not just like the Falcons moments. Like something about their game doesn't look cutthroat. I guess is maybe the best way to put it. Like there's aspects where I just see like I should not be seeing Tessus and Kerrigan basically have to get your team across the finish line. And that isn't Tessus should have got way more credit for their major run, just in general, I feel like. I feel like he was overlooked a lot. But
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I something feels still like I don't fully believe it from Falcons again, which feels insane to say. It feels so insane to be saying shit like that when they go three and one through groups. They had the major run that they had in the players that they have. I don't know what it is. I don't know. Yeah, it just doesn't look I think it might be some of the calling too is some of the calling looked really just on the nose, like less chaotic in a positive way. Like like I think where Falcons really started to shine is some of those rounds would dissolve a little bit and then but they looked very composed in those moments. Where right now they're not getting into those rounds as much. It feels like it's like this is the call, we're going to execute our plan and sometimes it goes really well and sometimes it goes really bad. And I'm not really seeing as much of that, I guess. I'm seeing clutches, but these mid round scenarios don't look as good and they're not look like they I don't know. It's like I don't know if they're Not able to get into them. I don't know if they're like not trying to force them. It's an odd thing. And then I think their map pool is still their biggest weakness.
speaker-2: That's the biggest weakness, right? Is the the map pool for Falcons is always the conversation. I think the big conversation we've had so far at this event is Falcons bringing Anubis back into the pool. Obviously, Dust 2 is a map they love to go to, but the problem is all the other top teams also enjoy Dust Two and are very, very good on it. And we got to see that in the game against Vitality. Falcons got absolutely destroyed. Like 13 4 loss, didn't get into it at all. Mirage was the same, it was just too weak to even compete against Vitality going into that third map. So for the most part, yeah, I think Falcons map pool is the is definitely still their weakness. I I think it's cool to see that Inferno's gotten better for them in their map pool, but you know, we're looking at Anubis is is like the the one clear shining light for Falcons in this first stage of the tournament. And that yeah, exactly.
speaker-0: The major as well. Kind of
speaker-1: So
speaker-0: reminder to me. Yeah. Like it was a big reminder to me. It was like the the Anubis was basically their major. Like if you go back and look at the games and what they were doing, that was like their that that's where they basically just pinned everybody. Where previously I don't think they had some it was like accidentally their best map, basically, is what it it it looks like for the major. And I think they're trying to tap back into that again. And I think ancient we still don't even know, I think. They're trying to avoid it, but we don't really know what's going on there right now. Yeah. I think it's map the problem though, Jason. I think the problem that they run into is like like Dinka was saying, the map pool from them isn't horrible. It's that the teams that they're running into at the tippy top, it it kinda gets weird.
speaker-1: yeah, but it's always gonna get weird, isn't it, at the tippy top?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They do have a map where I feel like I believe they're in the driver's seat. You know what I mean? Where Falcons, I don't know outside
speaker-1: Here's a couple things I think that's good about here's a couple things I think that's good about their map pool. One is they ban cash. Like I'd like to see them play because I think they'd be good on it. But banning it right now, it's the third most played map here at ESL Pro League. A lot of teams are loving to play it, and a lot of teams are starting to establish that it's a map they want to go to. So all of a sudden that's a map that's taken away from their opponents. Mirage and Dust Two are the number one and number two played maps. Their Dust Two is really good. Their Mirage is what, like their third best map as well. So I mean on the high level of the maps that are being played at this event right now They're very competent on or they fucking remove the map. Fourth bet most played map at Pro League is Anubis, which they're the fucking goats on at the moment. You know what I mean? Like the like I I think they're actually sitting in a pretty decent place, but
speaker-0: They can Elden Navi on it, but yeah, they they it is the best map, I think, right now. Mikazi went fucking crazy.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's just like when you get to the best teams in the world, when you get to those top three, top four teams, like, you know, no matter how good the map is for you, that other team is good on it as well. And and you know, that's the game. That's countership.
speaker-0: Yeah, alright. Alright, Jason. Fine, that's a game. That's a game. But you know, now that I got Jason right where I want him.
speaker-1: Here we go.
speaker-0: Are you ready to admit when Vitality wins pro league that this is still their era? And once they tie this together with the major, 'cause holy shit do they look good. They look good, bro. They look good and they do. I test to me. And I test to me tells me he says they're literally getting better. Like not saying than before. Yeah.
speaker-1: yeah, they're getting some swagger back, for sure.
speaker-0: They're literally three and I just feel like when you cut to the cams they all just it's remind I I'm getting that feeling again, Jason.
speaker-2: I love listening to them. Honestly, the coolest thing about Pro League is the fact that we've been sitting in front of the best teams in the world for like a week straight. And they're like so close to us. We can hear them talking. I take an ear cup off. I listen. I listen to like the c the in-game leaders, how they're communicating. Vitality are the most fun to listen to. Like they just have they just sound like they're having a good time. Everyone's making jokes, laughing. Like during the halftime breaks, everyone's having a great time. It was so cool to have Apex up and talk about how he doesn't call pistol rounds 'cause they're stupid random rounds. And he just lets the rest of the team come up with it. Like, I think that's been the coolest part of Vitality is they just have such a fun vibe inside of the team and they're playing incredible counter strike at the moment. I feel like th if they win pro league and then go on to win a major Jason, you y even you you have gotta admit that this isn't over. Like it's still going.
speaker-1: No.
speaker-0: come on Jason, hop on.
speaker-2: he's left us with a teaser.
speaker-1: I don't what do you want me to say? You want me to predict the future? What happens if Spirit wins it? What are you guys gonna tell me the vitality error is in fact over and I'm right? Okay.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, no, like yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Great. Wait, hold
speaker-1: See you on the next episode of the NQ and
speaker-0: on. I have to do a sponsor plug if we're ending it there. Hold on, wait a second. No, I just I don't
speaker-1: I'm just That was my closeout to the short.
speaker-0: how do you like what do what do you think about vitality? Like what are you thinking?
speaker-1: No, they look great. They look great. I th I think they're gonna win the event. I think I think they're they're the best team at the event so far by far. And and it's really cool to see
speaker-2: Mouse, I raise you mouse.
speaker-1: No, get the fuck out.
speaker-0: until Mause actually wins their fight.
speaker-2: I think mouse should be mentioned.
speaker-0: because we've done this already older.
speaker-2: No, that was incredible. No? Like they're watching Mouse, the way they beat Team Spirit, the way they absolutely destroyed Donk. Like, come on, that looked awesome.
speaker-1: I think Maus deserves.
speaker-0: I've seen him do that to Spirit before. I've seen I've seen Mao's be like one of the first teams to like not even recent
speaker-2: They are the
speaker-0: I just remember vividly when Donk was on the come up. Like I remember like the vividly the nuke game that like Donk had to play against Mause where they basically naded him everywhere. I remember I think it was Ancient was an ancient game versus Mause as well, where they they did some devious shit to him in mid. I can't remember if it was Mao's or somebody else, but I remember the nuke game. The nuke game where I f for the first time I watched a team target Donk and go at Donk and kill Donk for an entire map. And it was so when I I it's hard because everything when we talk about Mouse, I've seen them do it before. And it's not that it's not impressive. It's that I don't trust them to win. So until they win, it's like, yes, the way they handled Spirit, that was fantastic. Yes, do I think that this project and the players that they got look better and They're on an upward trajectory. Yeah, they 3-0 groups again. They look like they are one of the best teams in the world that's gonna go toe-to-toe with vitality. And I've just seen this shit before. So it's hard as a person that has has eyes and has to watch these games to just be like, Yeah, this one will be different. Why? I could not tell you why. Nothing feels different. It actually all feels the same despite it being positive. And that's where I'm at with Mouse is I think they look fucking great. Only once you fetch a big
speaker-2: Figures against them on a map in the entire pro league.
speaker-0: And you know what, Dinko? It that's called a group stage with mouse.
speaker-2: I'm gonna buy MML this week I'm buying MLs this week. This week one time only.
speaker-0: So this Dinko says Mouse is the best team in the world.
speaker-2: I mean they're playing Furia in the playoffs.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a good recipe for that.
speaker-2: Then they're on the Falcons versus Spirit side. I'm gonna say Falcon Spirit could go either way. So if they get Spirit, feel like that's a great job. And you got Miles in the grand final. So I believe. I believe they're gonna do very well.
speaker-0: Let me see let me go let me go through this whole pro league really quick. Let me look at these matchups.
speaker-1: I think it's it's worth mentioning as well that I mean you should we should give exertion credit for stepping into IGL and once again making it look like nothing's dropped off. Like I I'm I'm very surprised by that.
speaker-0: Sorry, this shit starts at one thirty in the morning tomorrow.
speaker-2: What's We got four BO threes coming your way, Flawn, flo four best of threes in the Spo deck all day.
speaker-0: my god.
speaker-2: We're on the late shift though, Jason.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: You have to do all four?
speaker-0: Me? Yeah. I don't I don't have to. I I probably won't. It's one it's it's way was it the one? It's the one versus game. Yeah, yeah. I'll be skipping that one. Vitality parent
speaker-2: I'm actually most interested to see. I actually I feel like Aurora. We haven't talked about them yet. But I feel like this is the team that I'm actually most looking forward to seeing in the arena. Just because every other team well, because every other team like Starbucks Fuhrer, Vitality, yeah, I'm not expecting them to do very well in terms of like getting the big results.
speaker-1: They beat him at Star Ladder.
speaker-2: Well, because it's the spodack, isn't it, Jason? There's like there's a whole other level to it. That but that's why
speaker-1: They're all experienced. They're all experienced on a rotor.
speaker-2: Yeah yeah, but that's why it's that's why it's experien that's why it's interesting to me. It's just like how good are Aurora? Like how how capable are they? Like this is happening very quickly. Like they're getting better and better very quickly. So, you know, this is the next step. You know, how how are you gonna fare? You've got a lot of talent on this team. Impat looks great, Ash has been a good coach. I I've really enjoyed watching Aurora so far. So let's see how much of a fight they can put up inside of this bodeg.
speaker-1: Just to be clear, if this was the vitality era, that's not the conversation we would be having. You'd be saying, It's the vitality era, Roar is gonna get fucking pummeled.
speaker-0: no, they're I said that in under my breath, like just a little bit when Dinko started, I said they're gonna run into vitality. I was like it's not gonna matter.
speaker-2: We know we know we know they're gonna run into vitality and that but that's like how how close can they even get it against vitality, you know, in their era.
speaker-0: Vi you know, if there is a team that can maybe like actually derail vitality, not like in a skillful way, but I do feel like Paravision versus Vitality could be funny. I like just the
speaker-1: It could get weird.
speaker-0: types of players on Vitality. You Flames gets bored, Apex is not necessarily known for his patience and I don't know. They they're gonna make it unfun for vitality, I'll tell you that right now. They they might
speaker-2: viewers at home. Tune in to ESL Pro League to make sure it's gonna be a really fun game to watch everybody. Every single game we have here is gonna be super fun.
speaker-0: really have to start getting paid for me to sell for these plugs. This is crazy. the I don't know. Yeah, I think it'll be Vitality Aurora, and then I think Vitality will be in the final. I think Falcons will probably they should beat Spirit. I the the I hope we get Falcons Mouse because I do feel like that's really a fun matchup actually. Because then I don't have to watch Mouse Well actually that is the fucking stereotype. This is actually we're like just time traveling. Mause vers Falcons, Maus beats Falcons, then they play versus Vitality in the best of five final and get three o'd. This is actually
speaker-1: Falcons have their major run refreshed at this event. All you know, Spirit, Furia, and then Vitality if they make it to the finals. Different
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: order.
speaker-0: A little bit different order. I mean
speaker-2: The order we wish we had in Cologne. Please, why couldn't we have had this?
speaker-0: Yeah, the fury of being on the other side was always a bit sad. But at least we have
speaker-2: We got the cast we got to cast Vitality Falcons. I think we were pretty happy about how how it went down in Columbia.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that was a that was a fun one. Can't complain. I think unless you guys got too much more to that, I think it's a good one, boys. I think Jason's talked enough today. I think that was so we all agree that Vitality's back, they have their era and they're winning this event, right, Jason?
speaker-1: Two out of the three sound fucking great. No, I I I do. I have Vitality win event. I think they're gonna I think they're gonna smoke it. They l they look really good. And they look very chill and relaxed and talking to them is you're getting some of that feeling back. Like when we talk to them
speaker-2: On the couch.
speaker-1: Not even that, like this'll this'll sound like crazy. like i e even at the major, I remember doing I don't know. I I remember the first game Dako we casted a Vitality in Cologne at the major and it looked like they hadn't like touched the game. in a while. Like I was watching players move around the map looking like they were looking like me. Like when I haven't played in a while and I get in the map, I feel like I'm running in like fucking sharp right angles.
speaker-0: But if you don't play the game, so that's
speaker-1: Yeah, I know. But this might be played with Vitality looked completely fucking I don't know. Like I was just watching I don't care shit at the major, but here they all look like they've been fucking zeroed in. They all
speaker-2: Zaiwu, Zaiwu definitely in those games was like slow to start every map. It was like, Mr. Zaiwu.
speaker-1: Drops was the one that I noticed the most. Props' movement of Cologne,
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: I felt like it was like I was like, Man, it feels like it's been a minute for you, you know, like you're rediscovering what it feels like to sit down at a mouse and keyboard. You know, there's like the your appendages don't feel like they don't feel like your own arms anymore. but now everything seems it seems gravy, so whatever. Yeah. The only thing that can hinder vitality is Apex getting that phone call.
speaker-2: That's true. J L coming up. That would be
speaker-0: That would be crazy. Holy fuck. If
speaker-2: And their mouths were in there though.
speaker-0: you're the manager and you get the phone call in the middle of the best of five final, do you tell him? You better do two.
speaker-2: Otherwise you I know you know what it's up.
speaker-0: Last map though, last map was you You have to tell him, but could you imagine outside
speaker-1: Imagine being jammed.
speaker-0: and you're the c you're literally the manager and you get the call or something and like you're like no You're like one map away.
speaker-1: It depends. Is the call like she's she's going into the hospital and it's coming tomorrow? Is the call
speaker-0: Into Little
speaker-1: or is the call baby's here? Do you wanna leave?
speaker-0: Maybe baby's on the way. Holy shit.
speaker-1: I don't
speaker-0: Surely the manager has to tell him, but there is a world where I'm just thinking about like maybe I don't know. Yeah. Yeah,
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm so glad I'm not in that situation.
speaker-0: that'd be crazy. You're wrong no matter what you do. shit. All right, but you know what you're never wrong with? Trading on CS money. That's right. You can always win there. Trade on CS Money, thank you very much for sponsoring the podcast. Thank you for everybody that's been listening to the podcast. I'm clearly a fantastic host of these two. I I'm clearly the one leading all these conversations and doing a fantastic job. And I'm glad that these two can agree and we'll wrap it up there.
