speaker-0: Those are all good, Dinko. You're you're carrying me. So wait, this is where you guys said, ⁓ welcome to the AQ podcast with Dinko and Moses. Look at it. Moses is bright. Look at him go. Yeah, you're looking the wrong way. Yeah, yeah. Dinko's trying to survive. It's hotter where he's at than where I'm at currently, has no air conditioning whatsoever. So this is actually just a podcast of survival games for him. And ⁓ Moses is just looking like a model, which is why ESL recruited him to sell their hoodies along with Dinko. So
speaker-1: ⁓ my god, we're we're actually
speaker-0: Hopefully they sold the most they've ever sold. It's about time they use you for your real talent, which is your looks. That's true.
speaker-1: Which is
speaker-2: They should have done that ages ago, man.
speaker-1: Yeah, well I think they're trying to capture the the like the the middle aged market these days. I think there's enough esports people now hitting middle age. They're like that's where the money's at. Let's go there.
speaker-0: They're seeing me sell out events and they're like, Who the fuck is watching Flawn? They gotta have money. We gotta get some How old are these people, dude?
speaker-2: Dude, we were ⁓ we were walking the floor at the event during the semifinal, I think, during the Spirit G two game. ⁓ no the one the semi that was a quarter final. The semifinal was yeah, Spirit Falcons. And we ⁓ we met some guys who were at the F ML land, just walking around the floor in Cologne and that was sick. Like they had FML merch on, everything man. It was sick.
speaker-0: Are you sure they were actually at the event? Wait, you're talking about the Europeans, the guys that sat up front with the signs?
speaker-2: No no no. They were like near the back on the floor, they had ⁓ FML hoodies.
speaker-0: Okay. There was a lot of them. Yeah, the guys up front that always give out the custom signs. You know who I'm talking about? They go to a lot of events. They made the one behind me. ⁓ wait. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They always make custom ones. They had a bunch of FML merch on too. That was pretty cool to see. Definitely is always an ego boost. I won't lie. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, I saw that.
speaker-1: I notice more ⁓ I'm I notice more just fuck flom signs out in the crowd than anything I don't real fans stopping me. Does that make you feel what does that make you feel?
speaker-0: No, it's good. That's good. I I mean I know you're not like a Twitch goer, but like it's a literal emote in my chat. I know. I know. So ESL finally figured it out though that like it's not a bad thing. I think that one took him a while. I kept telling him I like, it's fine. I think before they literally would
speaker-1: Ven.
speaker-2: Well I think I think it helps that fuck you Apex has become a global phenomenon, so I I think everything's okay there.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. North American culture's expanding. We're we had a win, but we got some chances.
speaker-2: Taxi driver and he was talking about the the fuck you apex chant. Like he was like a loose follower of Counter Strike. He was Turkish guy and and knew about Aurora and he goes, Why does everybody say like ⁓ fuck you Apex? and and that was you know it's bad when taxi drivers going around Kahlow and know about the chant. Everyone's fucking Apex apparently.
speaker-1: Why do you say North America can't win when we just when we just have a super team forming?
speaker-0: ⁓ brother.
speaker-1: I see.
speaker-0: That's not on the list first off. That is nowhere on the list
speaker-2: That wasn't included on the list of topics, Jason. That is a curveball.
speaker-1: Yeah, None of you want to talk about that. None of you want to bring it up.
speaker-2: I guess we could.
speaker-0: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also we gotta talk about the fact that ⁓ we gotta interrupt Moses real quick. But don't forget that the podcast is sponsored by CS Money. That way I can pay Moses and Dinko to keep showing up on time even when it's fucking hot as the devil's anus where Dinko's at, and he's got a bright and shining smile on his face. So perfect segue out of me to get the sponsor.
speaker-1: Snow or sleep, I'll be there, just like the post office.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, I mean, okay. The answer is we're not talking about that roster until they like do something. I'm here for it. I'm honestly, you know what the worst part is, Jason? They could probably beat a lot of the teams in North America right now. That's like that's like the that's the honest truth. That's what I that's what actually scares me. What scares me is I see that team and I'm like, you know, they could probably in like six months qualify for my land, which means they're like top six and
speaker-1: Yeah, but I guess the question is can they survive for six months?
speaker-0: That's my point. That's why I'm saying I wait. You know what I mean? That's like that's why like I I believe the players ability. I don't believe the players drive. I'm not sure where they're at. Sure. ⁓ and that's not the I like the guys. But that's fair. Yeah. But like I like the guys. I just think that I can't tell if this is a last raw because we don't know what else, or we tried other things and we realized that maybe like this is actually like I really want this to be like a last raw, you know what I mean? And like let's see how this goes. So Yeah, I I'm here for it. I'll we'll see. I ⁓ I don't think there's really much to talk about right now. I think
speaker-1: It's grabbed your interest, but you're not ready yet. You're not ready yet to open.
speaker-0: No, no I'm not.
speaker-2: If anybody's unaware what we're talking about, Stuart 2K's bad T. But the NA qualifier roster already has a stand in. So I'm not feeling too confident about the future of the situation over there.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Well yeah. That one's just that one's just a little bit of banter to kick the
speaker-0: Yeah, we'll just we'll wait and see. We're gonna bend that one. We'll we'll bend that one like full on.
speaker-1: Can you have a stand in if you don't even have a full official roster? Like as a philosophical question.
speaker-0: I mean when I think yes you can because on FaceIT you list your starters. You have to list your starters. So I can see that they are using a substitute. And that is not the intended five, at least according to the face it website, which we all know is perfect in every way with zero flaws. So the ⁓ yeah, I think that's that's we'll wait and see. But speaking of stury, how about ⁓ we'll get right into Nico winning his first major After, you know, obviously Nico was carried by Stu at Dallas and it clearly, you know, that was that was my segue there. Yeah, he was carried by Stu in Dallas and now he finally got his major. Now that Stu's not playing, Stu simply allowed Nico to get his major, I think, is the angle we want to take here. Thoughts?
speaker-2: Yeah, it really taught him how to win, you know, give him that mentality. And I think ⁓ that was the thing that got him over the line finally, a grand final on the IM.
speaker-0: That was it. That was it. Now how do you guys actually feel though? Do you guys feel like it's ⁓ it's changed anything like ⁓ for you? Like like like legacy, how you view ⁓ like
speaker-2: Well yeah, big time. ⁓ I feel a lot less sad ⁓ about about Nico's career, man. Like he's finally got a major. He's been waiting for such a long time. ⁓ you know, I ⁓ we were all sitting there at the edge of our seats kind watching in that final and it was a row of us up in the HL TV booth and we were watching it just on on the side and we're like, Are we actually gonna watch Nico finally win a major? And yeah, you know, every everyone in that line of people who had been watching him for ten years actually kind of got emotional, you know, and that was a super nice thing to be a part of. And I think we all realised like in in a weird way we've all kind of been a part of his journey to get to this point. And it was just such a relief, even as like a just a fan of watching Counter Strike and someone who's been involved in the scene to see Nico, who so deserves a major title, finally get one. ⁓ and do it in one of the best events, if not the best event ever. You know, the scale of that event, the storytelling from ESL and the other broadcast on was incredible. ⁓ I was just happy that it got to be told in that way. Like all these VTs before, you know, footage of him in the little land cafe where he grew up, all the way to like ten years ago playing in Mouse and now in Falcons. So I think that was ⁓ a beautiful way for him to finally win the major and ⁓ it obviously cements his legacy as one of the greatest of all time.
speaker-1: That was very that was very sentimental. I don't know how I'm supposed to follow that up. ⁓
speaker-2: No it doesn't change shit.
speaker-0: It didn didn't change shit for me. There you go. That's ⁓ Moses nailed it on the desk. He moved the goalpost immediately and I was so there for it because I No
speaker-1: This is PM if I say it out loud.
speaker-0: Yeah, like I'm with you. Like when you sit on the desk I was like, Thank you. Not because not and this is actually because out of respect for Nico, not it's not a disrespectful thing. Like I feel like the major was a formality, not something I needed to change how I feel about Nico and his career. I I like it doesn't make him more of a great player or less it it's just like, Hey you got yours and I'm happy you got yours. Like it's
speaker-2: leaves him with no caveats, you when we look back in the past we can't say Nico this, he did all that. But he never won a major. You know, didn't now he have
speaker-0: ⁓ no, that's one.
speaker-1: I think having that having that one major, like it's just is like kind of like unlocks the door to like certain conversations where not having it is always gonna hold you back. But like in like an actual practical sense, no, it didn't change anything. Like he's still I still kind of waver st on who I think is the greatest rifler of all time between between him and Rops. Like I still kind of bounce back and forth at the moment and not really sure which way I want to go. So winning the major didn't didn't really change that. He's not there yet, but but it seems like there's a likelihood he might at some point in the future if he keeps this shit up. but yeah. I'm with you. It didn't it didn't like change much in my grand scheme of where I'm placing him or what I think he's capable of. I think I was most impressed by how everything came together with him like everything kind of being realized with the whole conversation on him stepping back to be more of a third star. And he still had insane stats and he still had insane impact and he still had insane eye tests in the games, but you could see him finding ways to flourish while also Monasy and Kiyosuke were were blowing up the scoreboard and the server as well. Which I think is something he struggled with in the past where it felt like that team was like you get Nico popping off and no one else, or you get other people popping off but not Nico. I thought that was very impressive to see whether it was him or Kerrigan, whatever whatever happened, it like it was just like, ⁓ it's you're like, ⁓ that's the way this feels like it should have been working for a long time. so that was cool seeing him kind of take that step back and find the ability to still have a crazy level of impact.
speaker-0: Do you think that was the single greatest thing as to why Falcons won? What would you attribute the Falcons win to the most? I personally would go the Kerrigan angle, which is as the number one Kerrigan flamer on here for his kills, I will take the L and I will say Moses good job. ⁓ I'm not I'm not changing my tune. I s I think that but I think that was the run. I mean, I think like when I see that team play and when I watch them, I actually do think that
speaker-1: Not you two, Flum. ⁓
speaker-0: You know, it's never that I doubted Kerrigan's IGLing ability, but what I did doubt was his ability to get the kills in the server that were needed, which he did. And it doesn't matter how many times I think some of those plays might work again. They did work there, and that's what matters most. And then I think also when I watched that Falcons team, something that I saw him do, and ⁓ he did actually rein them in somehow. Like he actually did. ⁓ there was a
speaker-1: Calmed him down.
speaker-0: I I remember an exact moment on Inferno that Kosuke completely fucked up the round where I almost lost my shit where this guy decided to jiggle peek Porch with bomb on him and they were gonna go for an arch rap late into the round and Kerrigan had to completely change his call because Kiosk over peeked and died. But that they called a timeout, Kerrigan reeled it back in and then they regrouped. But those types of moments are what I didn't see anymore. Like I'm using that as an example as what I saw like w that would constantly hinder Falcons. And I just want to give Kerrigan his flowers because genuinely I still think his fracking is liability to the point where I still doubt the long term consistency of this roster. But also at the same time, I did see Kiosk grow immensely under him in a short period of time that I can't also ignore and not be like, that is to me what unlocked Falcons. Is you mentioned the Nico being the third star alongside them. But I saw a level of consistency out of Kiyosuke that I've never previously seen in a way that I feel like I can trust him in a game and Kerrigan, I believe, unlocked that.
speaker-2: Yeah, I would ⁓ agree a hundred percent with it that angle, you know, like the fact that Kiyosuke was just a whole different level. Finally we could almost believe the hype in him. We got to see what everybody was talking about, why everybody was excited about him. 'Cause I think in the other version of the team with Kick Sand he showed little glimpses of it, but in the especially important games he was he just literally looked lost. ⁓ so I think just Managing hin inside the server and managing him outside the server, I think Kerrigan did a fantastic job. I mean if you watch the behind the scenes vlogs and stuff, like you can see Kerrigan directly talking to him. K Suke is always around him, like around the hotel and hanging out. Like he's definitely taking him on through his wing, and I think that's such an important thing for this Falcon squad. And we heard Nico talking about in a couple of interviews with the press at the event saying You know, the difference in in Kiyosuke when Kerrigan's coming to the squad is fantastic. He's such an important player for Falcon system, takes the space, is the front man for the attacks. And he's he was such a good playoff player in Astana and it only got better here in Cologne. ⁓ and I think obviously Kerrigan's a massive part of that. ⁓ but also Zonic was saying, you know, he's won all major finals that he's been in. That's six and now he's got six titles. It's incredible. But he was saying that he's never won a major final without players being willing to Play outside of the box, you know, make that play through a smoke, push something they normally wouldn't, and having the the balls basically to make a play that's gonna win you a round. And Kerrigan like made all those plays, especially in those playoffs, you know, making the push of the double doors on dust too and that beat bomb side through the smoke, somehow getting a multi-kill out of it. Like these are plays that he wasn't scared to do, and and I think just the impact he had in those rounds as well, in such important swing points of the games. ⁓ really important from Kerrigan as well. So yeah, it's it's obviously Kerrigan's the missing piece and just unlock that magic for Falcons that are on the hallway.
speaker-1: Mean the g I mean the question is kinda like boring if you just go to Kerrigan because that is like the only true answer. Like if you take away Kerrigan, 'cause like Kerrigan activated everything, right? Like Kerrigan got everyone feeling w like so like it's all the answer is obviously Kerrigan, but if you take that away, like what's the most important? Is it Nico being able to find consistency as the quote third star? Is it the the performance of Kiyasuki Kiyosuke, who I still can't pronounce his name the same way every single time I say it? Is it Mossy part of the spot with the A W P I know it's just a game within a game, really. ⁓ it was one I don't know. I think for for me it's for it's Kiyosuke. Like for me, I think his his pop-off, like I think in like the consistency he had, like after Kerrigan, I think that's the most important part. If you'll notice like all throughout the game too, like he was getting the hero AK forty seven drops, you in Anubis when they needed that the force by win. He's the one who got the two entries with the dropped AK Hero AK. So it's like they're they're putting those resources in his hand And I think, yeah, I don't I don't I don't know I what it what it truly is on the inside. Maybe it's the confidence he feels from Kerrigan is making him feel much more comfortable. Maybe there's something tactically that's being done. But either way, I think his development and the impact he's able to find as such a young player is like that was that was the first event that I saw from start to finish where I was like, Okay, I I get I get I truly get the excitement around him. You know what I mean? Like you see glimpse of it of it in the past, but like that was the this was like the first time I was like, ⁓ shit, like that's this kid's actually a monster.
speaker-0: Yeah. Well I think let me let me clickbait it real quick. Do you do you guys think 'cause that 'cause I think we could talk about Falcons for a minute. So let me clickbait this one. Do you think Falcons, after what you saw, wins one more tournament this year?
speaker-1: Show me how it's done.
speaker-2: Yes. One. I think they could win EWC. And I think it's because of the map pool change as well. Like it just helps Falcons even more, I think, with overpass being gone. Like you remove a tactical map out of the pool and you you add another one where it's like aim stars are gonna start popping off. You remove a big strength of their biggest competitor in Vitality. I think Falcons definitely win at least one more trophy this season. ⁓ and that's exciting because now you have like another team to go up against Vitality for the second half of the year.
speaker-0: Do they win one? So you think there's potential for more, but for sure one. Yeah. Okay. Moses, what do think? So before we continue that wonderful conversation, I need to thank today's sponsor for the NQ podcast, CS Money, because without them, Money Man Moses wouldn't be able to be here and he wouldn't be able to make time for us. So thank you very much, CS Money, for sponsoring NQ. As many of you guys already know, if you're familiar with my content, CS Money is strictly a trading and marketplace website. So I got lower prices than Steam. You can do quick trades. They have probably one of the biggest inventories, if not the biggest, of any site out there. You could use PayPal or crypto if you want to buy through the marketplace. They also have like an instant sell feature. So if you're just trying to move your stuff quick for whatever reason, you could do that directly through them and sell some of your inventory. If that sounds interesting, make sure you guys check out the link in the description below. As always, like to say, be careful, guys, not just like with this or with anything. Just be careful with clicking links out there. There's a lot of impersonators of all of these sites, and I just want people to be careful. Genuinely. So just you know, just a little warning for me. We'll get back into the video now.
speaker-1: ⁓ without looking up what events they're going to for the rest of the year, I would just say yes. I I would think they're gonna win at least one more. There's gotta be some events that some of the other top teams aren't at. And then I mean, they beat all of them. Let's see, you know, Spirit's probably the one I'm most comfortable with their performance. Let's see how Vitality comes back and responds because they looked flat. Let's see if Navi ends up making any changes. A rover's gonna have changes, G2 has changes. So I mean, you're in a field now where like a good amount of the other top teams that have been around are making some moves ⁓ to try and catch up to you now. ⁓ so yeah, I think one more, I think with more time with Kerrigan. I mean, I think I think even Kerrigan falls on the same line as your your thinking too, where it's like, Is this actually going to be viable long term? You know, he even kind of has been saying, I know my fracking output isn't isn't there where it needs to be. I've just been focusing entirely on the team stuff and the playbook and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the IGL angle of it. So when he gets more time and he can settle in a little bit more and feel comfortable a little bit more to focus on his individuals, I think they can get even better. ⁓ so I mean This'll it'll be interesting to see what what happens, but yeah, one more I don't think is a a bad bad bet by any means.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I I still kind of feel like they could
speaker-1: That wasn't very that wasn't a very clickbaity answer. You gave a clickbaity question, I didn't give a clickbait.
speaker-0: No, that's okay. I wasn't expecting it. Don't worry. Perfect. Yeah. Sick will work on that. Yeah. ⁓ we'll just get ⁓ to like say like if you said no at any point in there, we just put no. ⁓
speaker-1: I'm glad I needed to learn a close up from the master.
speaker-2: I have with Falcons, and it's the fact that they were built to win a major, and they've got some really young pieces that are gonna move forward for the future, right? Like Monasi, Kiyosuke, these players are going nowhere. But it's the Nico, Karrigan, Zonic, like that part of the team for me. Like Nico will stick around for a while longer, but obviously his pursuit, his main goal has been winning a major. Now he's now he's done it. Zonic's talking about in these interviews, you know, how he's been away from his kids for a long time. Considering like retirement at some point in the future. He's gonna have to have that conversation with his family before he re-signs the contract with Falcons. You know, Kerrigan probably doesn't have a huge amount of playing time left in in his career, you know, down the line. So the the thing for me for Falcons is there g there's gonna have to be a transition to know you've got these pieces that are obviously gonna be for the future, but you know that you've got some that are aging out relatively soon and you've got to somehow get proactive on those before you just fizzle out and not be competitive. So that's the only worrying thing for me, Falcons. I feel like it's a win now, win as much as you can.
speaker-1: No short term scary things, all long term scary things for Dinko.
speaker-2: Exactly. I'm just kind of seeing down the line. Seeing that Falcons, if they are gonna win, you gotta do it now. You know, make the most of this, run off the matrix, get that momentum going. 'Cause I don't think long term this Falcons team is one we're gonna consistently see deep into the years.
speaker-1: It's a good problem to have though, isn't it, when you have like a nice experience, like leadership figures and like the young core that you can kinda lean on. Like they have a good mix. It's all about styling it out and sticking the landing, which is difficult apparently in in esports these days.
speaker-0: It is. Well, I was gonna say, I mean, I I think I mean, this is my if I were picking things and I was making it a video game of like roster moves, I mean the the natural and most logical thing to me is Kerrigan becomes a coach when Zonic retires and Nico takes over the IGL role. I think that actually the longer that those two stay together on a team I have this personal theory that Nico, it's always his team, and whoever the IGL is there is along for the ride, and that will be how it always is, which is a detrimental thing if Nico ever thinks that he knows better than you. And that's not it necessarily always a toxic thing. It's not it's like I know on the internet everybody's loves like this idea that one person just hates the other or something and then they like kick the other one, but Really what I see more so happening is over time as things happen is if Nico starts to believe less than Kerrigan once again at any point in time, and maybe he starts making some mid round decisions himself, and then people start wanting to do what Nico does because modesty is basically his child at this point. And then KOSK might fall under the like you just kind of have like a thing where it can create like separation in the team, where the longer that that happens and if they don't have or carry their success, I just wonder If you don't move out Zonic, then get Kerrigan as like the coach. Like it does this kind of create like a something you can't stop and then it just makes all of it blow up in your face.
speaker-1: I think it's ⁓ it's a hard conversation to have just because of we I don't know like the time scale, like when we said that he doesn't have a la whole lot of time, are you expect him to be retired by the end of next year? Like, you know, is it end of twenty twenty si like what's so in that sense, like I don't want to speculate too much down that road. Yeah, exactly. I think also that that whole effect that you that you're talking about between Kerrigan and Nico there, I think that's just actually a natural thing that Kerrigan's gone through already like a number of times in his career, whether it's with Astralis, whether it's with FaZe, ⁓ all of his rosters, that's like the number one thing they all say is eventually you get to a point where those calls start working a little bit less and then you have less faith in them. And then when he calls them, you're kind of half asking them because you've lost faith in it step by step over time. And I think Depreze even explains it on a desk a number of times as well over the years. So I think that's just like a natural, natural thing with this calling style, which again is like, I guess what how how long do you expect this period of faith to last? Like certainly winning the major is gonna boost it, at least till the end of the year. And then if that starts fading away, how long do they have like We all kind of anticipate the Nico to IGL move to happen at some point. Again, the time scale I just no fun.
speaker-0: time so it's yeah yeah it's not like we're just manufacturing fantasies either so it's it's something where i everybody's talked about different things. Zonic's talked about retirement. Kerrigan's talked about basically wanting to go until the wheels fall off, but I think he wants to stick around when that happens. So I think he's never said explicitly he wants to coach but also I think he said that he wants to basically ride it out and then he doesn't want to necessarily just leave either. ⁓ well I don't know
speaker-2: I want him in the broadcast world. That would be so sick if we could get Kerrigan on the top.
speaker-0: Desk would be so sick, but also I feel like he's not I don't think you play as long as Kerrigan has and like I don't know. Maybe I don't know. We'll we'll see. I
speaker-1: He might he might do like a little stop gap in the broadcast. Yeah, bring him all like he looks while he looks for a team, you know what I'm saying? He's like another ⁓
speaker-0: The coach, ⁓ yeah, we love that arc around here, don't we, Mos
speaker-2: I do.
speaker-1: Most of them have killed it. Most of ⁓ have done a great job. I'd say at least half of them.
speaker-2: You know, there's there's a story ⁓ with our casting, you know, speaking about Kiyosuke. We were a couple of things we were talking about before we got into that playoff game. We looked at each other, we're like, Yeah, we okay, couple of things we need to know. We need to make sure we're saying Kiyosuke the same way, you know. Okay, that's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna say Falcons instead of Falcons, 'cause like the British pronunciation is Falcon. Yeah. So that's the British way of saying it. So Falcons, right? So ⁓ we c we got up there. First half goes live, everything kinda Jason goes.
speaker-0: Not falcons, man.
speaker-2: Kayasuke or whatever, we both just look at each other, laugh, start casting. I'm just going I finish the half, I'm like, I knew Falcons, Falcons, Falcons. Like it just gets stuck in your head, man. It's so hard. Once the game goes live, things just start you stop thinking about things like that.
speaker-1: Well it's cause I worked so hard to get the proper one, the Kiyasuke. And then ⁓ everyone switched back. Yeah. And now I've got it all messed up in my brain about six different ways that it's been locked in at various points. So it's just it's just spur of the moment.
speaker-0: I'll keep we'll keep it different here too, man. But ⁓ all right, all right, that's enough glazing of Falcons, I think. I think that's good. What do we ⁓ we'll go with the runner up real quick. How do you guys feel about Fury right now? You guys think that I I I like their run, but I still that run, especially the way it ended in the final for me, I don't really have faith in this roster like to really make any deep runs ⁓ for the foreseeable future for the rest of the year. Like the the ideal like fallen send off I think literally died in that final. I don't think he's gonna win it. I don't think Fury's winning a tournament for the rest of the year.
speaker-2: I think when you look at that other side of the bracket where all the good teams were, Furia would be at the bottom of that list. I think potentially even below G two, who have now made a change, right? And the thing going into the final The thing going into that final was like Furia haven't really been battle tested at all through the major. Like they didn't really play a huge team on their way there and even their playoff side of the bracket, you know, not playing great teams. So once you get to that final, Falcons have already played against every one of the best teams in the world. ⁓ so I wasn't surprised to s see them get blown out of the water to be honest. ⁓ I think it's a great result for Fury ⁓ showing that they can make it to a major if the cards fall in their favor. But yeah, I'm with you. I don't think they're gonna be trophy challengers down the line. I think it's just gonna be a difficult team to get through. And if the bracket really favors them then yeah it can be a runners up. But I think that's the best for Fury. I think runners up at a major is an incredible result but I think that's just kind of the best.
speaker-0: What was going on with Queserado, you think, man? I like I just felt like Queserado was like not Queserado, that event. I feel like Yuri was so back and it was like holy shit. And we saw glimpses of Maldon.
speaker-1: He didn't feel like he had a killer instinct, did he? Like I feel like the only time I saw him having ⁓ having great games is if Molodoy was popping off or if ⁓ if your Kinder was popping off with opening kills and K Serata kinda like sliding into some space, but he didn't seem to have like any like real initiative or like go for the throat kind of mentality at this event. I don't know. So part of me feels that I watch Furia, I don't feel like they have like the same level of like polish and like detail and depth to their game. I feel like a lot of like a lot of the moves they make are still kind of d you know, done done on vibes and you know, like Done on like just kind of like improving calling, like there's not as much protocols and layers to the decision making. I could be I could be very wrong on that. It's just a feeling I get when I when I watch them play that I I'm like, these guys are kind of just working this out. They didn't like really have this planned out. This is just kind of something they're they're working with on the fly in terms of how they're gonna approach it. So I don't know. I I'm with you guys though. I like I wasn't high on them coming into the major either either. Was surprised to see how well they they looked going into things and throughout the the playoff run. ⁓ but I'm not I'm still not all that high on them despite the second place finish. It's cool. created a cool story. Not a great game. I think it was clear it was clear seeing seeing as as Dinko said, it was clear seeing Falcons come out of the other side and just be like, ⁓ shit, this team is ready to fuck. You know, like they were they were just ready for that grand final.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a little unfortunate. I I feel like if Case Rado was even playing like ninety-five percent, we actually have such an insane final. Not that he was like terrible necessarily, but it's yeah, you just lacked like that killer instinct is because I think you know, when you consider how slow of start the Fury had in those finals, still getting to eight each time, and then you realize like that they basically spotted them six rounds or like every even when they won the pistol they they they lost the force by if I remember correctly. It's pretty brutal. Like that's just like you can't That's why that final also felt so dominant, is because the entire time it just felt like Fury was gasping for air, trying to do anything, and Falcons was just in the driver's seat. And where every single time there was a a mistake from Falcons, I feel like Kerrigan immediately corrected it. Like almost instantaneously, the very next round, they just got right back on it. Everybody moved on. And that's new for that that I would say an eco roster. Like just to put it bluntly, I think that's new. And ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. It was a little disappointing. Little little slow start, I guess, out of the disappointing final, but man, we got lucky with the one side of the bracket. That was absolute whole I mean, holy shit. That was
speaker-2: Hella like. the greatest games you could ask for really like and on probably the one I wasn't expecting to pop off was the G two spirit game. And yeah. It was the best one. I feel like that was the best game out of all of them in the major
speaker-1: I had to like stop watching that game. I had to like walk away and stop tuning into it. Because we were casting the next game and it it had been going on for like five and a half hours and I was getting so excited by the game that I was like getting tired. I was like, Okay, well, I can't fucking watch this anymore. It it was crazy how how how awesome those games were on that day. The both quarterfinals, then the semifinal on that side was wild as well.
speaker-2: Yeah, I was sitting in the green room with Yanko during that game and he was like, ⁓ do you wanna go watch in the arena? And then we didn't get up. And then the Magics one V four happened and we were like, Should have went in the fucking arena. Like should have got off and missed it. We watched that one in the green room, everyone was just going crazy. ⁓ but then we went out and watched the rest of the game. It was nuts. That was just such a sick game. The the Magics one v four, like that is that was special. That was a special moment. ⁓ so really cool to see that. ⁓ and great to see like G two get to a level where they can compete. I d I really didn't expect to have G two coming into the playoffs, to be honest. Like I gotta say, you're right, Jason. Heavy guard is the truth.
speaker-0: Heavy god is heavy god.
speaker-1: But he
speaker-0: Did go missing in the third map, gotta be honest.
speaker-1: It's sorry, his PC crashed, you know, threw threw him off his game a little bit. You know? Yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: No, honestly fair, that was a giant cluster. Fuck that. I felt but yeah, what a fucking major out of him. I mean, the the third map being a bit rough is to be expected, I guess. But dude, holy shit magics, man. Like, no coach. Yep. A team known to kind of struggle emotionally, right? Like, even if we don't see them as much, like maybe They don't give us like maybe the Alish cams as much. We'll get like a nice slam every once in a while or Donk like visibly getting upset. But the rest of ⁓ are pretty kinda like to themselves, I'd say. But dude, magics. Holy shit. Like I I I I like I've been homing, you know, big homer for Spirit, just like thinking that they could do it, but I did not expect that actually. The amount of resilience that they showed without a coach and some of the like just finding new ways to win and not just G two, the nine Z game too. Like I know people might not rate nine Z as highly, but to do
speaker-1: At least for those games they were ⁓
speaker-0: Multiple of those types of series for Magics with just no breathing room for a coach, not calling timeouts at all, even for himself, and just always having a next round, like, was genuinely truly impressive. Like maybe if Kerrigan didn't have the run with Falcons, I'd say Magic's was the best IGL for sure of the of the entire major in terms of what he was doing. And I was really impressed. I was just I was super impressed. ⁓ do you guys think that they bring in Halley or do you think they're gonna do ⁓ was it Softic is is his name? You guys have like I
speaker-1: They were saying, I have no insight, I'll tell you what I'd do.
speaker-0: Yeah, so.
speaker-1: Which is soft tech? Yeah. Yeah, I would I would
speaker-2: Not thick.
speaker-0: Yeah, such yeah, yeah, one of them.
speaker-2: So actually
speaker-1: You threw me off. I I would tell Halley to continue with the big picture stuff and I'd be like, Whatever we need on in the you know, do the big picture stuff. Satfake got the detail work, he's gonna be with the team. That seems to have knighted things. We're gonna continue going this road.
speaker-2: That's what they said was happening during this major ride. Like the the idea was that Solfik was doing the micro side of the game, Holly doing the the macro side of the game and and that system is working. So I think that would be ⁓ like h they just switch roles, you know, Solfik becomes main coach, Holly to the assistant coach. I think that's a far better plan. I think that's a much, much better setup for spirit.
speaker-1: It's it's not just the coaching stuff though. Like Tanier, you know, had like, you know, some up and down games, but I think overall I was I saw a lot more like heavy impact games out of him for the spirit side. I thought that was cool. Shiro had another really good event. Like they also in the Falcon scent kinda ha in the Falcon scent also had most of the players they needed to show that like step up in development also delivered for him in the big moments. Like Donk was a beast all the way throughout. We know that's gonna happen. Shiro with the way he played top ten player of the event. Tanir I think did good with the impact, but you're right, the magic's the magic's calling with all those overtimes, whether it was a small st small stage and small crowd or big stage and fifteen thousand people, he he fucking handled like like eight different overtimes throughout this event. That's a wild thing to do without a code.
speaker-2: The only issue was Donk actually. Like that that's the weird thing about spirits. Like Donk wasn't
speaker-1: Ooh, here we go. ⁓
speaker-0: Finish line.
speaker-2: The finish line wasn't wasn't doing donk things. Like he was actually kind of missing ⁓ in terms of what you need from him and what you need him to be for spirit to be the best. I mean, that's what we've always said though on the podcast, especially you Jason, you know, leaning into the spirit side of things, it's like if they don't have Donk, like all the positives you just said about spirit like Syrah playing better, Tanir being unlocked, Magic's calling great, it still wasn't enough for them to get it through to the major final. And that's because Donk wasn't quite at his top level.
speaker-1: Almost though.
speaker-2: Yeah almost you.
speaker-0: Almost. ⁓
speaker-1: So I mean, yeah, which is like if your spirit and you made these roster changes to kind of like proof yourself against a bad donk series or bad donk game, like you have to say on one level one level you got a perfect example, mission accomplished, you played the team who goes on to win the major took close overtime. And there's no consolation in that as a player, but I think from like a front office perspective, you see that and you're like, Okay, good. We we have some players in positions now that can deliver if he if he's having a quiet game and can kind of carry him through some tough stretches, and that's exactly what we wanted to do. was make this a dane more dangerous roster top to bottom. And they've they've done exactly that.
speaker-0: Do you think they beat Falcons with Sophic there? ⁓ shit, I lagged him up. Okay, there we go. ⁓
speaker-1: n ⁓ no. But I mean, I don't know. Like I don't know. I really don't know.
speaker-0: I know it's a big it's a it's a it's a you know this is clickbait, but I was just curious like
speaker-1: Do I do I think he's gonna have that one answer? Maybe maybe he would have had a cool note, maybe he would have had a cool trick or something to say, but I think also, you know, I look at how Falcons was playing in that series and in that map, and you know, you had some truly fucking like, you know, God sent moments that go in the way of Falcon this was the Kerrigan playing to the beat bomb site, like that's what it took to beat you. So on some sense there's nothing a coach is gonna do to prevent that from happening, you know, you know.
speaker-2: Yeah. ⁓ I think the only way that could have happened is if you know, Saltfake had noticed something Donk was doing individually, he was able to call a timeout and get a little bit more out of Dawnk. Well, I think that would be the only way, right? Like you maybe unlock him a little deeper into the game.
speaker-0: Well, because that's what we're giving us credit.
speaker-2: Kyosuke beating up on Spirit, once had him in their ranks, sold him off over there for the big money dust.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's just interesting 'cause everybody always talks and praises Sophic for what he's done on the micro level to enable players to do more, especially when it comes to Donk success. So that's why I was kind of like, Well, maybe maybe in the in a bad Donk game, if he was actually there, he could have said something to help magics call something or enable Donk it away that gets him more into the game. I definitely couldn't have found it. It's a it's a butterfly. Yeah. Yeah, it's a butterfly effect type thing. It's it's whatever.
speaker-1: Also, let's be real, nobody actually truly knows what the hell he does or provides that we're all using buzzwords picked out of the PR press releases, just the same as anybody, 'cause it sounds kinda cool to be like, Yeah, this guy's macro and this guy's doing the detail like
speaker-0: Some macro and some micro gameplay. Yeah. Yeah. He showed me a flash once. It was sick. It worked. All right. Yeah. I I I think we're walking into a season though of really it's gonna be Spirit versus Falcons. I I have this weird feeling with vitality right now. I don't know what it is. I'm starting to not not fully. They still get the benefit of the doubt.
speaker-1: They gonna win one tournament this year?
speaker-0: I don't know. I I don't ⁓ it's that bad. I really feel like they don't have the engine on. I feel like it's turned off. And when I see them play, that's where I that before, that's where I give A Apex his IGLing and his ability to lead the most amount of credit. And when I saw them at the ma like if you can't turn it on for the major, what will turn it on? Like like the just losing? Maybe and then the next step is like, okay, but they lost and I Maybe it's the they brushed it off because they didn't crack. So then the loss really didn't hit him as much ⁓ in the ego as it as it they needed it to to turn on the engine again. And maybe this is what actually cold starts the engine 'cause it was a big enough loss to get him going. But yeah, like I don't know, it just it looked flat. They looked flat. They didn't come out Yeah. I know, well that but that's that's not who I'm doubting, right? It's the how much like that that's I d I don't doubt his
speaker-1: Looks like a truck.
speaker-0: Grind and and what he wants to do, even for a second. But his ability as a leader was what was so impressive. Is he got the young guys, he got the Rops and the Zywas never lose the focus on that. And this is the first time because previously, when you lose some of the smaller tournaments leading up to the major, I feel very confident in saying, I don't believe it yet. I'm gonna wait till the major. When you fuck up at the major and it doesn't look like you you're on, and That's where th yeah, that's where I have concerns. If you can't turn it on for a major then what the fuck
speaker-2: agree with you like I think coming out of Atlanta, that loss, I think every player probably in the back well in the back of their head or the front of their head, they're just say, okay, we that only happened 'cause we went on vacation, we were weren't practicing ahead of this. ⁓ so I think th not necessarily it wasn't like a a kick up the ass to the level it maybe needed to be. ⁓ then they came to this event put and you did practice leading into this and you know you took loss to nine Z earlier in the competition, you lost a map in your opening game to foot. You know, it wasn't looking great for Vitality the whole way through that tournament. And even in the playoffs, not looking great, but s they're still so good that they got thirteen eleven on all three maps against the eventual winners of the event. You know, so like I I think no one would say that Vitality were playing anywhere near close to what they can play at that major and they were still thirteen eleven, every map should have pushed into overtime. I this is a situation where I just think Vitality are going to leave the rest of the players are gonna pick it up and I I definitely see them just coming back to the top of the world after this event. I think it's gonna be enough of a wake up call. ⁓ Vitality have too much class and too much of a system, I think they're gonna be back to winning ways.
speaker-1: Think I think they're at least gonna be competitive in the conversation. I think it'll be Spirit, Vitality, Falcons as like a top three that are gonna be battling out for for trophies. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, I don't I don't know. I can't see Vitality disappearing that much. But I do remember ⁓ the very first game we casted their very first game at stage three against Foot. I remember getting done with that series after Vitality won and I was just like, It doesn't look like Vitality's played this game in a while, you know, like I just like saw some of like the movement on the map, it looked like they'd You just been away from it a little bit too long and had a little bit.
speaker-2: the nine Z loss, right? That's what we the one we casted was them losing to nine Z. And that was like nine Z were also playing really well, you know, but
speaker-1: Shooting really hard, but the player I followed.
speaker-2: Zaiwoo, like those that's you ⁓ Like we're just missing like Zaiwu is missing so many AWP shots in that game against Nine Z. It was like another miss from Xaiwoo. I feel like that was the most common phrase that I used throughout that game.
speaker-0: Like an ultimate game. Yeah, literally. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.
speaker-2: Special move.
speaker-1: I'm not I'm not significantly worried about him, but I know what you mean when you say like you have like a funny feeling about him 'cause I think like, you know, I think that's part of the reason why that hit Apex so hard was because like he probably in his mind is like we didn't even fucking fight, you know, we didn't play count the game of Counter Strike, you know, we we just came in limp and the stylistic loss. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I'm not super worried about them while also saying that was weird. I think the the
speaker-0: I could slip a word.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: The biggest thing they're gonna be missing now is that kind of aura of invincibility and of dominance that they had over everyone. Like they they had that same quality that like old school fanatic, old school nip, old school ⁓ Astralis had for a while where it was just like to some level they stepped into the server like eighty percent of the time having already won the series before the game went live. And now Vitality doesn't have that in any way. So it's gonna be way more competitive, way more brawly, I think, between all these teams, and it's not gonna be one of them just taking over the circuit.
speaker-0: Well, it would be sick though. Like, this is their opportunity. Like, I already kind of had them as like in my mind. I I'm more impressed than the Astralis run personally. ⁓ maybe that's because I'm a anti Astralis person with them beating up liquid the entire time and I just try to like shove that away. So maybe that's my bias. But like this run to me was always like their strength was always more impressive to me ⁓ with vitality than the Astralis one. But now the way I see this is like now that I've kind of seen you actually slip up. I feel like I've actually never seen a team turn the engine back on with the same five. Like without a roster change, without something changing. I'm not saying they will. I'm not saying but this is like the like to me, I'm just building this up in my head where if they can turn on the engine again and actually like win the next major and win like two more tournaments or like one more tournament in the second half of the year. That's like something I feel like is very that. I I'm trying to actually think, like maybe astrolists you can argue a little bit with like how their breaks, which is kinda it that one's just weirder in general because the circuit worked a lot different. Like the the like a lot different. So it's
speaker-1: That's where I was gonna go with this.
speaker-2: To an extent have already done it with this roster. Like this is a team that still made playoff the two tournaments that were disappointing is Cologne major playoffs where they lost to the eventual winners of the event, Atlanta where they didn't practice. But last year, you know, this same situation, they got they got beat by Mals during Cologne. Like th they dropped off, then they came back, they got an EPL when they went on to win the second major of the year. So I feel like there was a point al already last year, around this time of year at the end of the first season going into the start of the next, where vitality actually dropped off and they managed to get it back online again. And I think I think they just I I think they'll look back in the performance review and see the ramp up to the major needs to be a little different. Cause I think the we heard the performance coach was talking about if they didn't win Rio, they were gonna they wouldn't have taken the break going into the major, they would have kept up the practice, right? ⁓ but I think the fact they win Rio might actually have been a bad thing long term 'cause ⁓ the end up going on that break and losing the momentum.
speaker-0: no, I won an extra million dollars on it.
speaker-2: No, but imagine they don't win Rio, they win it in Cologne. How much better would that be? You want a major and a grand slam? That'd be so much cooler.
speaker-1: Liquid's the only team allowed to do that. I think we're gonna keep that one. Yeah.
speaker-2: ⁓ but th one of the sad things was like G two played so well ⁓ so it was so impressive but there's a couple of things that have gone wrong for G two. The decision making and switching out Wrinkle is coming in instead of some pies and also overpass just got removed from the pool. So they've just lost their best map as well. So I don't really know how to feel about G two. I was so positive coming out of the major and now I feel kind of meh.
speaker-1: G two's gonna be fine, boys. Everybody relax.
speaker-0: Do you think it do you think it moves the needle like in any pot? Like like just individually speaking, is like is really
speaker-1: I'll be honest with you. I'll I'll be honest with you. At the at the moment, just based off the announcement, this feels more like a lateral move than anything. Yeah. But I mean, I guess at this point, if you're making this move, you're putting faith in what your coach and your IGL have seen and discussed and decided they want to bring into the team and what what benefits he has and what things he can do and how they want to utilize him. And at least for me, I think Saul's one of the more underrated coaches. I probably think he doesn't get enough credit, you know, that we talk about part of that is because hasn't lifted enough trophies to like be matching Blade and or like he really be in that conversation. But I think, you know, his work on ends, his work in heroic, I think he's a really smart, really good coach. So I I'm just gonna put faith in that he's seen something here. And you have to remember too, like I Sampaio, while I think he's I don't want to say scapegoated, I think he's being treated probably a little bit too harshly. ⁓ yes for for his for his performance. Over the past few months. Yeah, yeah, they do. And that seems a little bit un that seems actually extremely unreasonable. But I think, you know, the angle with this is also you're bringing in a younger guy, twenty one years old, who hasn't had a lot of experience, who's still kind of moldable and who has shown a a level of potential that that made him interesting for for NIP to keep him in the roster for for two years, you know what mean? And while it hasn't panned out in that way, I think we can all agree that NIP as an organization meant to activate activate players and improve them hasn't exactly got the best track record. So no
speaker-2: Every
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: When Broland left that team, everyone was like, ⁓ fuck, this guy's a revelation. Where did he come from? So let's give Rinkle a little bit of a chance to have his little moment.
speaker-0: NIP is Swedish liquid Swedish liquid, man. Telling you right now, 100%. So you're you're probably right actually. I actually did hear a rumor that they were that Liquid was going for Wrinkle. I did hear that rumor. I thought that that was actually well, I was very surprised to see that Wrinkle was going to G two today because I heard the rumor that he was supposed to be going to Liquid, so I'm curious how that one went down. I don't my I don't know if that was for sure, but like you know how these roster moves go, everybody's in like a little bit of a bidding war, and then last second it's up to the players.
speaker-1: right around the major when every team is a little bit more open to ideas while they kinda figure out how they want to gear the next season.
speaker-2: I think the the some pies angle, my my take on it is some payas has already peaked. Like I don't think he's ever gonna get back to the Oprah he was when he broke out at the end of CSGO and the Ents team out of Movistar riders into Ents. I don't he was better in heroic ⁓ at the start of CS two for little glimpses and the Falcons team yeah, he got better towards his end of his tenure there, but he was never quite at the level at the end of CSGO. So I think we're not never going to see some paias ever get back to that. level again and in that sense G2 know what you're getting and it's not enough. And the thing everybody says about Simpius is he's always in the right position. He makes the right decisions. He just overthinks and doesn't always hit the shots he needs, right? Whereas the thing Rinkle from watching him, he's usually not in the right positions and he can hit some great shots. So like you've got the opposite situation. And I think he can be coached into that. Like if you can somehow coach him like dude stop playing this shitty spot. Like play this. This is the decision you should make. But you see the mechanics he's got, he's like definitely like a diamond in the rough. And I think obviously if Team Liquor are going for him, if th and and you know, G2 have got him into the team, you have to go with back to what Jason was saying that Saw's such a great coach. One of the things we talk about him in his past is like he's been able to scout players really well. ⁓ so I think hopefully what he's seen of Wrinkle is that yo, we've got so much raw talent here if we can just kind of harness it and put it in a system and teach him how to play properly. I think that you can see the upswing. So right now, yes, a lateral move, but I think definitely gonna be an upswing.
speaker-0: Yeah, they're gambling on its potential for sure. I mean, that's it. Like you're just hoping that you can get those peaks a little bit more frequently and actually give your team a little bit of an X factor in games like maybe the Spirit Game or something like that, where Sympaeus, I think, always provided a level of comfort, especially. That's why I think it worked really well with Saw, where Saw knows exactly how Sympaus wants to play, vice versa. They kind of know That's gonna be like the interesting part is like now that Saw doesn't have the offer that he's notoriously works with quite a bit, and he has like nerds again. He has play he's always had like one or two pieces that I feel like are very familiar with him in his teams, ⁓ that have jumped around with him. So it'll be interesting to me that like does like cause Wrinkle plays very differently. Not even just I mean, you mentioned like the game sense, ⁓ but like just in general, the decision making and the angles and how he likes to play is very different. ⁓ I I'm curious to see if like that. increases the overall level of G two and if Saw can basically just make him a more consistent opera and have occasionally more pop offs and that can make G two an actual contender with the Vitality Spirit Falcons conversation, which they are currently sitting on the outside of where they know that they just right now on their best days, they probably can't run with those teams with some pious in the roster.
speaker-2: I think another thing that I'll reveal as well, I was talking to a few people that when the move was going through of Sampaius and Saw joining G two, is G two didn't want both pla like both of them. They really only wanted Saw. Saw was a priority. But heroic were trying to sell off both players because Sampaias' salary was higher than the kind of business disruption they wanna
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Exactly. So they like Take ⁓ both ⁓ baby. You know, that that's it. We we don't really want this expensive sniper lying around without the coach to get the most out of him. So in G two sense it probably felt like okay, well, we're gonna take some Pires into the team and we've got him for a while. It he's a serviceable auper, but now the time has come we need an upgrade. ⁓
speaker-1: I mean, he hit the team like he was about here for a year. That's pretty legit for a player that kinda came in and they probably had some opportunities to to let him go at at different points. So I think he actually played himself well enough to stay in there for a year. I think he'd still be a benefit for like a like I don't know, a team like around like the fifteenth place mark that and you could still see if he's got some room and some growth to improve back to where he was. Well, let's calm down.
speaker-0: Not anymore. probably not. I don't know. I don't think I don't think he's gonna do it.
speaker-1: ⁓ he's feeling frisky.
speaker-0: Nah, dude. I don't know. What do you think? Do you like ⁓ the liquid roster in general? Yeah, let's just dive into it. Whatever the clusterfuck that this is gonna be. You like ⁓ you like JT there? We'll just start there. We'll we'll start with what we probably know is gonna happen or should happen. I don't think that's official yet, but it's the rumor and I'll just it should be happening.
speaker-1: What's the liquid roster we're talking about right now? Yeah, the rumor I saw I
speaker-2: Package Dale himself at the moment, is what the rumors are getting.
speaker-0: Yeah, the rumor that he's trying to bring T C with him as well, instead of having Flashy, which I don't have any animosity or anything towards Flashy. I'm kind of just indifferent. ⁓ so if he wants to But I actually don't like T C with JT anymore. That's actually my issue. The issue that I have with Go ahead.
speaker-1: Maybe I I was gonna say maybe well I was just maybe T C can handle the the macro and Flash C can handle the micro, get a whole spirit thing going on. I was just gonna tell a joke, that's why I interrupted you go on.
speaker-0: No, that's fine. I'm patch. But ⁓ you know, I I'm tired of seeing JT and T C because they they do really well together and I think they have a lot of things that they do really well each time, and I think every single time I feel the same way about their teams that I feel about Liquid right now, which I don't want to see happening again. Get a fucking vibes guy in this fucking team or I will lose my goddamn mind. I have nothing but the utmost respect for JT's IGLing ability. Him as a leader of men is not up to snuff. I think his calling is good. I think that from whatever thing I can see as an armchair analyst that has never been in the team, Liquid always looks like a fucking dead on a rival team when they show up. They look like absolute fucking zombies. They lose a pistol round. I watch everybody go inside of themselves, and nobody's there to actually tell them you're not bad at the fucking game. You can still play. It's just three nothing. Like, just go fucking play. And I think JT is a really good caller. But I don't think he's the right guy to get those situations away like away from the team. And I've seen T C and JT outside of Liquid and with NA players run into very similar things. So that I don't like I didn't like how passion looked in some of these games when they would start slow. Like they just kind of looked like they lacked like a little bit of let's get this thing going a little bit. And I I just would like to see a different coach in there. I don't know. I'm not saying go get Taz for your vibes guy necessarily, but I like either somebody in the roster or somebody as a coach. I just wanna see somebody fucking happy to be there. And JT is No, stop. He just that's all he's got is a goddamn smile and JT just looks like he ⁓ he's just ⁓ goddamn it man. So no I don't
speaker-2: He's always got smile on his face.
speaker-1: I'm with you. I mean I no, I I I think it's a fair point 'cause it's not just that, it's it's then it's JT, T C Alige, NAF. you know, you have you have no one down the line at all who's who's involved in any of that. Yeah. So I mean it's a fair point when you look at the whole team as like men is like all really passive, really chill personalities without a whole lot of entry energy. Like you can't you just can't do that. Like I don't know if you know we're sitting down playing video games, but you can't do that.
speaker-2: If you're liquid though and you're the joker Steve, you're just sitting there and you're like, All right, obviously we need to get a ⁓ a change here. We're gonna get JT as the IGL. Finally we're gonna get rid of that coach IGL conflict where, you know, they don't see the game the same way. I want my coach or I'm not gonna be happy. Immediately. The first same problem. It's it's the same situation with Team Liquid instantly. Do you wanna do that? Like, do you wanna immediately start where your your IGL is coming in? He's like, By the way, I didn't even really want you around. Like that's a that's a bad start on day one.
speaker-1: I also I also don't know I d I d I mean I don't really have any strong opinion on the flashy situation either. Like I don't I don't think he's necessarily done a bad job. I don't think he's necessarily done a great job. I don't really know where the problems lie within the team and why they haven't been able to Well, I kinda do, but I think I think like you can now that I say that now that I say that out loud, I do kinda know.
speaker-0: I mean there's a few.
speaker-2: Thank you.
speaker-1: For me, I for me, I look at that situation and even just away from like the personality and like the energy energetic black hole that that team would become, I I do think on some level you have to say, and and I'm with you, without any kind of personal hatred or dislike of either of them, I think we've kind of seen what that combination of coach IGL can do. We've seen the limits of it, we've seen the ceiling of it, we've seen where it can take you. ⁓ and I think, you know, it it's it's you know, you can argue maybe they didn't have the the kind of talent that they might have on this rust or in those other teams, but I still don't think You know, if if your biggest success was like that one month period in the transition into CS2 where complexity made it to a final, like, you know, that's there's there's not there. There's not a lot there to like hang my hat on. Yeah. Yeah. So I if I'm if I'm liquid, I'm like, no, you can you can go somewhere else if that's a condition, but we have flashy and we want flashy. But this gets to the next issue, which is, you know, all of a sudden if that's if that's true, I don't know if the I'm just operating on the assumption that this whole thing is true, that it wants TC is
speaker-0: Yeah, that's fun.
speaker-1: I think this was part of the issue between between of the last roster where Flashy and and Sue likely didn't see eye to eye. So I think if you're liquid, you almost have to say like you have to give Flashy the the kind of belief that he's gonna f he needs to find an IGL that he can work with too. And if already you're gonna bring in a new IGL who's like I want my coach, you already have a barrier right there out of the gate. Yeah, which is which is like kind of fun.
speaker-2: Such bad start for day one of the team.
speaker-0: Yeah, I do think that there's a lot of like ⁓ benefit too that's all allegedly power. ⁓ we're a podcast, it's vibes. Who cares? Don't calm down, Moses. No, it's vibes. Okay. ⁓ see that's how you just like we're we're we're we're vibes based podcasts here. We don't fact check anything and like this is all just vibes. But no, I'm tired of watching Liquid and feeling like they personify how I feel about North American Counter Strike while I'm watching the game.
speaker-1: I'm just making sure I just want the people.
speaker-0: I that is like like I don't just mean like they play bad. I mean like literally I'm watching a team that I feel like doesn't believe that they can win and then I also am watching them. I don't think we can lose. I don't that but that's literally what they look like, man. That's what all these North American teams look like. Is like as soon as they lose a round, they're just like, ⁓ yeah, we're an NACS team. We're just gonna lose this one. Like and fucking big NRG don't even get me started. Like these guys just believed it three rounds in. Like they a hundred per like that's what this shit is actually like a plague in our scene. Like it they they they genuinely believe what is said about them now to the point where it's a self fulfilling prophecy. In all of these fucking teams. This is why we this is why when you ask me at the start of this goddamn podcast, how do I feel? I feel like that's fucking unk goddamn roster could still beat some of these teams because they're delusional enough to believe it themselves, where these other rosters aren't. They're like way too pragmatic. They actually are way too realistic, and none of them have a goddamn ego. Like, name one player, North American Counter-Strike, that actually believes they could beat anyone in the top five.
speaker-1: It's probably somewhat in like ESEA Premiere, if that still exists.
speaker-0: Like these guys wake up and if I go to ⁓ eighty ⁓
speaker-1: I'll you a secret. I'll tell you a secret. If I came back right now, I could probably get on a North American team and qualify to a major series. ⁓ If I came back right now applied myself to I'd I'd be at a fucking
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-2: Okay.
speaker-0: That's the level of delusion we need.
speaker-2: That's what we need.
speaker-0: No, and I believe Moses because he believes it. But these players don't believe it. Like, I don't know. They're all just here and they're just like waiting to be the punching bag. Like Grim is literally putting fucking masks on to like it, but like it's like maybe it's kind of true. Like it's like maybe this is where we're at, dude. This is actually all just true. It's not a bit. And so ⁓ to make this back about liquid again, I need somebody in that fucking team that thinks they can actually beat people.
speaker-2: But the the thing about liquid is they just break your soul when you're there. Like they had they had your kind on the
speaker-0: Do better than everyone and that yeah, but like who did it? Like what what is causing it? Besides the but is it is it the players doing something evil or is it the self-belief that I'm telling you? Like like the the NA players have like actually I think internalized what the community has said about them. I I truly am starting to get to this point where they actually just well, I I feel like I have to say it out loud where somebody can just fucking hear this and like, ⁓ yeah, like
speaker-1: So made
speaker-0: No, bro, you can actually just go play really well counter-strike, like good counter-strike on your best day, and you can beat some of these teams. I have watched Xaiwoo miss three op shots at fucking party because he's off his game. You can go shoot him when he does that. Like I promise you, you can do it. You don't need to freak out. There's you might not be the best team in the world. You might not beat them every single time. But if you don't have the delusion to think that you can beat them on your best day, you shouldn't be in the server. And Nobody on Liquid's roster right now has that instinct. Alige lost it when he went from probably the 17th time of going back between Liquid and FaZe, and nobody else on that roster had it. Nav's just happy to be along for the ride. Like JT doesn't think he could do it. He just wants to have his comfortable old coach again. And literally, there's no answer in that fucking team that tells me. Yeah, we're gonna go win and be a top five team again. So until they've signed somebody in that roster that I feel like is delusional enough to believe that, that's where I'm at with this liquid team. I don't believe in them still because they don't believe in themselves. Like they don't. They they lost before they entered the server. Sorry. I just got that all off my chest.
speaker-1: Dude, all I all I all I took from that rant is that you want Stewie 2K to rejoin this roster and bring some fucking vibe back. Just get him back. Put him in the jersey.
speaker-0: Well bro, like what are we gonna do? Are we gonna play worse at this point, Moses? Are we gonna like like ⁓
speaker-1: Exactly. Face face on every alienware PC out there and party rock and roll.
speaker-0: Yeah, fuck it. Get the get the tunes going for for Moses. We'll get Moses will be we'll get Moses back on Ross. Moses will coach the team. Fuck it. Get Flashy out of here. Get Suey calling and I want Moses.
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: No, I want I want Yanko to coach this team.
speaker-0: Holy shit. Yankee killed him. I said delusional people that think NA can win, not the one guy.
speaker-2: Now that that would be a play. you mentioned the like lack of belief in themselves, but it's the lack of belief in your teammates as well, is the big problem for Team Liquid. Like if you're you've got nothing to believe in, like you have no faith in the people sitting next to you that they're gonna be able to make the right decision, do the right thing. Like when I I was watching this little bridge, ⁓ so you on the stage w one, two and three stage on the A stream, they had these set ups on
speaker-1: Yanko can do it.
speaker-2: The little hill and then there would like be a bridge you could walk across to get to the casting area. And Team Liquid had just lost their second series, about to get knocked out. And as they got up, I just looked that that wasn't a team. Like when you look down at how they're all getting up and leaving their PCs, it's not a team. And I I I just thought to myself, there is no way that I can even imagine those people going into a room at the hotel into the Prack Room and rallying together, getting on the same level and being a team and coming back out to challenge for the final game to run.
speaker-0: It is right, Dinko. They're coworkers. They're all just coworkers. They're all they're all clocked in. They're clocked in for the day. And this is their job. And that is what they do. And that is like I said, ⁓ they've lost ⁓ to me, I and I don't think they mean to do it. I just think that they've lost I think and it's not just liquid, like like I said, I feel like I'm bullying liquid, but I just want to reiterate I feel like this is everyone on the North American teams. I I feel like a lot of them and they're not trying to paycheck steal. Like I don't think that I I think they're actually they think they're invested. Like they think they're doing it. They think like they're doing what they're supposed to do, but they're not like they they've just lost it. Like they they they've literally believed what people have said about them to the point where they're not delusional anymore. And you if you don't have a little bit of delusion, there there's just no way that like they're ever gonna get out of the the rut until you bring another person in there that shakes it all loose. You need the Fuck it. Give me like I mean, like a good example of this would be simple. Like, I mean, like simple is a prime example of somebody that, you know, Kerrigan previously just talked about him being in the team and you know, people calling him toxic and how really he was just saying what Kerrigan would say. He just wouldn't even let it slide for a second. Like he wouldn't he wouldn't bring it up after the end of the round. He'd say, in the middle of the round, what the fuck are we doing? Like, what are you doing? Are you like actually playing this game to win or are you just fucking like just fucking around? And I I just need that, bro. I need somebody that is just gonna actually get in there, be s delusional, fucking flame somebody, tell ⁓ you're just being a fucking weenie. Stop clocking in and just go for it. But I don't even know.
speaker-2: I like that too. And and maybe we don't have to even ⁓ the thing about Liquid that annoys me is I don't think this organization gets the respect that it should, right? Like as an org. I think a lot of like these big team, like these big players who have done a lot of in Counter Strike, they kinda look at it as a almost like a retirement home. Like you can go there and get a nice stable paycheck and you can have all these sick facilities. You can have great branding, great organization. All of those things should
speaker-1: Wheeny.
speaker-2: help you become one of the best counter strike teams in the world. And I would like Liquid as an organization to get a little bit more respect out there in the Counter Strike world. Like I wouldn't want I want them to find an a new young hungry team that's coming up and actually like not not keep recycling these names we know that are out there in the world that have done great things in rosters but we know they're past their best. I think Team Liquid should be an organization like Falcons, ⁓ who are like they obviously not gonna have as much disposable income, but you're throw you're finding the next gem, finding the next player coming up and having a long term project you're moving forward with. And I think something Team Liquid do is they're a bit too nice. I think NAFT's been past his best for a long time. I think great, you've done an amazing job over the last few years with Team Liquid. You did an amazing time with the Grand Slam, but dude, this is a competitive team and you're not good enough anymore. Get rid of get rid of him, get rid of a liege and move towards like a new dawn for Team Liquid. I think they're an organization
speaker-1: Full gut of the
speaker-2: Dude, they they like if VRS wasn't a thing, like you could just restart the thing up. But right now you have to be kind of smart about it. And I honestly don't think there's like much positive ⁓ vibes over in Liquid ⁓ in terms of anybody. Like there's only ⁓ I I don't even know who would keep
speaker-1: I mean, if you wanna talk realistically, I think with the move you're gonna your move that I I would lean towards in their situation is because of the VRS you have to keep a core. So you're gonna look to remove Shuhei and the report is JT coming in at the moment, and then the other one you're gonna look to remove is ultimate. You're gonna want an opera coming in. If I'm an A you have that you have that kind of America's ⁓ you'd you'd wanna keep the America's core. I don't know who they're looking at at that point.
speaker-0: Try with those three. Try.
speaker-1: Right, yeah, yeah, the j they have the core no matter what. Try is like a name that I've heard has been on the list from from Passion as well. So maybe if that's the route you wanna go, but I don't think you have to be married to anything in those other twos. Well th there's I mean, there's not much you can do at the moment. We don't have enough star
speaker-2: Get a shitty team for another season, ⁓ pay them nothing. And then
speaker-1: The last time they did that they got blasted out of the water. You want ⁓ to go for it again? People still talking about the Rain Waker roster. Yeah.
speaker-2: Well look at
speaker-0: But that's like why didn't you just do that with an A? You're just gonna shoot the shit. Just go with it with an A. Like that's cut that's the beef that people have at that roster. It's not the it's not that they went with no names, Jason. It's that they went with no names and moved regions like to just like give you a giant middle finger.
speaker-2: I think Alex C P
speaker-1: How is that a middle figure?
speaker-0: But bro, they're the NA talisman team. What do you mean? Why is that the middle finger? You literally know that the entire North American Counter-Strike scene supports you, and you are basically with C9 gone, the reigning team, and you fucking dropped a liege to get Rain Waker. I don't care what situation happened behind the scenes. I'm aware that there's more to it than that. Like, I'm not like I know more than I should. That doesn't matter. Like, that is what you did, though. Like, that is publicly what. What you did. You fucking gave the middle finger to the NAC. How it happened and how it all went down doesn't matter. That's your fucking job, right? That's not my job. That's not our job here. That's their job. So you can't also then be like, well, they did that with another team when they gave people a shot. Sure. Okay. Yeah. They gave Rain Waker and Apaze, who had like a nice run at a major one time, a shot so they could go EU and then no longer have their most popular player leave the fucking team and then they can switch regions. Yeah, great job guys. Yeah, whoever thought that one up in the fucking room was like, yeah, this is it.
speaker-1: Okay. You've taken that to a direction I didn't really expect. I'm not gonna lie to you there.
speaker-0: Yeah, sorry, I get I get into this bro. I I unfortunately I feel like I'm the only one around here that actually is invested. I think I'm more invested in the player
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: I mean I'm I I I just didn't take that from Liquid as like a personal I didn't take that as like a middle finger. But you know, I I operate on the orc side of things more often than not and I'm not super involved in the NA scene, so I can understand how that person
speaker-0: represent the entirety of the NA scene, so I will not say it does, but I feel like a very large portion of the North American Counter Strike scene when that moment happened, that felt like a giant middle finger. Then they stayed a year. Then they came back to NA and only came back to NA so they could get in the fucking major.
speaker-2: I don't think anybody's
speaker-1: the don't I don't think that's a fair painting of that situation.
speaker-2: It's definitely what it was.
speaker-0: What the what they weren't gonna make the major, Jason, if they
speaker-1: Well I think I think I don't think that was the reason for the trade. I think the trade came to them and that was a fucking cherry on top. I don't think they said let's make a trade to get into the major. And there's there's that's an important distinction to make.
speaker-0: Well if you know It is, but nobody ever made it publicly, so that's not how it looks, Jason. If you want to make would you turn down that Sunday?
speaker-1: Would you turn down this Sunday with that chariot? Sunday and I would never second guess it. I'd pour some sprinkles, some rainbow sprinkles, and a little bit of caramel sauce, maybe some heated up butterscotch, and I'd have a fucking delicious
speaker-0: Why not just hammer it home and just say that's what happened? Like even or just hint at it. What is the downside to even doing that?
speaker-2: Yeah, I don't know why.
speaker-0: Right, if that is actually what happened, you just actually just missed an opportunity to tell people like this was presented to us and we decided to make a trade with G two. Like they could literally just even silver line it like that. Like
speaker-1: I don't even think that that would have significantly changed the conversation. I think people had way too much fun with the memes.
speaker-0: ⁓ for sure. But like at least at that point you've said how it went down a little bit. Like it could at least like like then people when they have real conversations about it can know. Like myself, like I I wouldn't have guessed that. Like I would not because I I'm not there to like sit there and I'll punch down for a little bit, but like not all the time. And then after I'm done with it, I wanna know how it went down. And yeah, outside looking in, yeah, it just looked like they made a trade to get in the radio.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. A hundred percent.
speaker-2: ⁓ the thing about Locke as well, they I think they lost all the
speaker-0: Sorry, my bad.
speaker-1: I like it. I'm into it. Let's get to fight about today. Do I have something I'm angry?
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ you give me time.
speaker-2: So think about Liquid is my final point is they always seem to they lost all the the right players. Like they lost all the players they should have kept and kept all the ones they should have gotten rid of. Like you had nerds on your team, you had your Kendo on your team, you had twists on your team. All those players left and you kept NAF and you got a leash back. I think they just kept all the wrong players. And then also obviously those players wanted to leave, wanted to go elsewhere. That's definitely something, but you didn't create the environment that to entice them to stay. I think that's a problem. And then the other thing is for Team Liquid, I I think do you think Navi are gonna keep Alexey B for a long time? Like I eventually I think they're gonna get rid of him. With if they if Navi don't pick it up this season, I think there's a really good chance Alexi B gets kicked from that team. And I think he would be a good idea for Team Liquid down the line. Like I think if you you gotta like look at the landscape, I think that would be something that could happen.
speaker-1: I think ⁓ I don't I doubt Alexi I I can't imagine Alexi would be interested in coming to like a rebuilding project. If like there's some progress made, maybe the project gets a little bit better, but I think he'll have better offers than than coming to rebuild anything.
speaker-0: He's rebuilt his entire image. Like w it shouldn't have been that that down to begin with, but like I'm just saying i if he gets whenever the day comes that Alexey's no longer a Navi, I'd be very surprised if he's not immediately picked up in like some top twenty team that's like truly in a position to make a jump or be competitive. But they're not. They're not. That's their fault. Like like that's that's the situation they've created themselves. And
speaker-2: Should be a top twenty team. Like
speaker-1: Well that's my point.
speaker-2: Well, we just live in this limbo forever or do we actually come up with a great plan and set up a deal and make it enticing for the world's best talent to come back to Team Liquid? 'Cause I if if that doesn't happen then what are we even doing? Like then
speaker-0: You're talking about liquid and we're but real remember we're talking about the forty first best team in the world right now. That that is liquid. And liquid and this is
speaker-1: It's well I've twenty five at the moment, but I might be using eight.
speaker-0: HL TV, HL TV, buddy. Yeah, and HL TV holds on to the discord like a motherfucker.
speaker-2: Damn good thing there in the Americas qualification process.
speaker-1: It's rough. but I don't know what I was gonna say next. I lost it already. it's not that they're not trying. It's not that they're not trying. It just it just takes time. But I mean I like I yeah, I don't know. It's not it's not an easy it's not an easy thing to do. And I and I think like I think sometimes what see what equally gets me mad ⁓ in this conversation about Team Liquid is the other side of the angle where it's like
speaker-0: Well I'll go ahead
speaker-1: This team has swung for the fences quite a bit and none of them have panned out and that deserves its it's like that deserves its criticism and its critiques. But let's not act like this team hasn't tried to put together some really fucking cool rosters and gone out and gotten really good players right after they've been you know, like they've they've made some swings and they haven't panned out at all the way they would have liked any of them to be fair.
speaker-0: Kinder one was the best swing and it was and it was decent for a moment.
speaker-1: They're fucking swigging. Well
speaker-2: You know, it the VRS system makes everything difficult to rebuild and a chance for North American teams to get some very much needed VRS points is by going to Flawm Land two coming up ⁓ a little bit later on the year.
speaker-0: Segwing for me for my own event. This is insane. Yeah, you're definitely getting rehired, buddy. You're doing great. Yeah. No, I mean yeah, they're I mean they're definitely gonna be there. We're the only thing right now for my land event that we're considering or like wondering is which South American teams will be there because ⁓ right now the answer is pain. It should be pain and it should be ⁓ IBR, but ⁓ the realistic
speaker-2: Hell yeah.
speaker-1: Wait.
speaker-0: situation is is they might have so much VRS that they might both decline. Because they have so much more VRS than ⁓ eighty, then energy, then Liquid, than Voka, that if they basically don't win if they don't win the event, there's a chance that but I don't know because there's strategy to this as well where like they might have previous events falling off. So I don't we don't really know. But the the invites will be going to ⁓ IBR in pain unless something I'm not accounting for happens, which is pretty rare. It's most likely we'll have like a bestia and like a sharks at the event. Sharks would be cool. Yeah. So it'd be cool. I mean, honestly, I'd love to see ⁓ IBR, just selfishly, because I'd love to see Insanity play on land, ⁓ versus North American teams and I do not sorry, hold on one sec.
speaker-1: Do you have a wild card invite?
speaker-2: Well th this Jason, how much of a tease was it this week in the news that Insani could potentially be free from MIPR? Like that was gonna happen. Like he was about to be set free, but he ⁓ seemed to have declined the offer from Legacy. ⁓ and hasn't gone to that organization. But I'd I'd like if if Insani leaves MIBR, send him to a really good team. Send him to Liquid. Send send send him to Liquid. Insani to Liquid, that's a great
speaker-0: Bro, how delusion ⁓ dude I love how Diko is actually so far more delusional about like how like Diko tells us how people don't view Liquid in a positive way anymore, but then simultaneously is like, Yeah, he's gonna and Sani and Sani's holding out not going to legacy right now, so he can go to Liquid
speaker-2: He would love that. I like that. I'd tell him I he wanted it.
speaker-1: You wanted you wanted the delusions. You wanted you wanted the hands.
speaker-2: T C and Flashy is the micro macro coach combo and Sonny and ⁓ you throw in a little some pious
speaker-0: We're so fucked. We're so fucked, man. I don't know. Okay. But for yeah, for the land of it, that should I mean so I mean for the NA side we should have a good like little lineup. But because everybody sucks so much, nobody can decline. So it'll be ⁓ eighty, it'll be wildcard, liquid, energy, voca, and then probably the like a team function Cooper Marsh run. Yeah, more more fans sold out VIP in fifty two seconds. I might actually break even this time. Moses, I'm having your day right.
speaker-1: ⁓ w what, excuse me?
speaker-0: ⁓ well I had to we looked at the budget and for some reason Moses took up like half the budget last time so yeah that's a good aggressively. Yeah, no, no. But no the ⁓ yeah, it's sold out in like VIP is like ⁓ yeah, yeah
speaker-1: So on that original right there, right?
speaker-2: Exposure's really good today, man.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, it should it should be good. Everybody more people. I'm seeing if I can do one day, but I just I think if I do one day tickets, ⁓ first world problems, we might have a fire hazard. So I don't know if we can sure ⁓ we'll see. I think Friday we might try to do one day tickets because like Friday we're gonna be starting earlier. Now the schedule, I don't know if you guys have had a chance to look at it. I haven't officially announced it yet, but if they'll listen to the podcast, you guys will be there. Like I don't care, it's fine.
speaker-1: Hey, we're gonna be there. ⁓
speaker-0: Happy to be in my Yeah, Dick Covoses will be on the couch again, keeping me company. But ⁓ no, I I mean I think like ⁓ yeah, it's it's gonna be fucking slammed. So the the schedule is is Friday actually starts at ten AM. So it'll be kind of like the Saturday day. Remember the the really long Saturday? So but it actually builds nicely. So Saturday will end with like the semifinals and then we have a show match, a third place decider, and then a final. The players requested a third place decider because it gives more VRS. For the teams and obviously this being a tier two event, wanna help build yep VRS as much as we can, so it helps. And then show match. I haven't officially announced it yet, but most people know that it'll probably be me with like I don't know if you guys followed the Ludwig land much, but my it'll basically be my team from the Ludwig Land, the Flommely. And then no, that'd be insane. That'd actually be insane. That's pretty cool. No. Okay, well played. Well played. No. I was thinking about the we have a bunch of other streamers that will be there, so I might recruit them and throw them on the other side. Nothing official yet though, but that's the idea. But yeah, so it should build nicely, is my point. And then Friday, since it starts so early, I don't know how many people are gonna be there at 10 a.m. on the Friday, and instead of just like Catching their flight, getting in there later, you know, enjoying their not burning up
speaker-2: Vegas. The ten a.m. is like eleven PM. It's the same time. Everyone's gonna turn out.
speaker-0: I think Friday is gonna be slow and Saturday everybody's gonna be hung over and Sunday is gonna be an absolute fucking zoo. I think that's what is gonna what's gonna happen. We'll see.
speaker-1: You had more you had more in person viewers at Flamland One than DreamHack Masters Las Vegas had.
speaker-0: I was there too and I'm well aware. But didn't okay, but actually Yeah, way back in the day, didn't didn't that like get moved? That's why it was so fucked up, right? Like wasn't there like didn't they have to last second move that event and that's why it ended up in Vegas and then they for they got the venue for free and then they put ⁓ center stage.
speaker-1: We're the one. We were the one in that I'm not sure I'm not sure how late in the day it got moved, but I've seemed to remember something, but maybe you just implanted that memory in my brain.
speaker-0: Maybe I did maybe I'll maybe I'll drop but I if I remember right the Vegas event never was total dog but I think like if I rem Boomer memory serves them right they had it planned somewhere else and then it like fucked up and then they had to pivot everything to Vegas. ⁓ don't remember. But yeah, like it yeah, you th we got a fair amount of spectators. It should be good. I I we sold out so much I'm genuinely considering if I have to like try to
speaker-1: Sounds like there's some familiarity. Very possible.
speaker-0: ⁓ to a bigger venue for the next one, but I don't really know what the cut up
speaker-1: Fifty seven seconds. ⁓ you should at least try and make it to a minute and a half. I think
speaker-2: That's my motto, Jason. It's ⁓ it's a good goal to set.
speaker-0: That's good. That's maybe next year. You'll catch up to me and Moses soon enough. That's about how it Baby steps. This guy is a professional. But ⁓ no, I I'm excited, bro. I'm excited. It should be really good. Hopefully, hopefully Liquid isn't at more of these events in the future, but I do think that the the unfortunate reality of NA being terrible
speaker-1: Segmental baby steps. Proud to have them here. I'd appreciate if they were never here again.
speaker-0: Yeah, like ⁓ like it's like a double edged sword. Like I'm I'm really happy that we're gonna actually have a stacked North American lineup at my land, but we're it's happening because of bad things. So
speaker-2: Speaking of, I think it's a good transition into this as well, because you're talking about the fact you can go to an event like this, ⁓ IPR would go to your Flawlands, you would, but they they risk losing a lot of VRS points. And that's exactly what happened to Gamer Legion, who went to the Draculan, like the Super One, and they came out last place. And it's like all that hard work making a final in Atlanta, and you just tank your VRS like you low losing points, losing momentum, losing confidence. Disastrous, really, for Gamer Legion. That zero three in stage three was terrible. ⁓ like just in general, not a not a good or stage two, sorry. It was just a a terrible look from Game of Legion, ⁓ at the major and now on continuing to have problems. ⁓ it's okay.
speaker-1: We'll always have Atlanta though. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: And that didn't really plan out for the RV either, did it?
speaker-1: It'll always it'll always be there. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. This game religion I'll be honest with you, it doesn't really it doesn't really get me excited in any way. To I mean this is that's yeah, it's been a gross look. I don't I haven't watched any of the games. They looked bad at the major in stage two, so here here we
speaker-2: No, it makes me sad.
speaker-0: I ⁓ I wasn't super hyped seeing this one on the list. I was like, Yeah, 'cause I just feel like we'll be dunking on ⁓ I think yeah, I think it's poo. I do yeah, but that is you're right. Like with VRS, that's like the double edged sword is if you're the big dog going to the tournament, it's like having the nicest house in the neighborhood, you know? You don't really always wanna have the most valuable house. You wanna have like, you know, you want you want somebody else to have Yeah, exactly, dude. They they th that way they raise your value up and you didn't have to spend all the money. Like
speaker-1: Fucking this turned into a real estate podcast real
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, dude, this is the UNC podcast. We can do shit like this here. Like the people here got crippling student debt and probably three mortgages and seven kids. Like ⁓
speaker-2: New property for you to buy. It's cash. It's in. It's in. Overpass out. So things get worse. They've lost now a great map for them as well. And like we got overpass out there. ⁓ how do you feel about that? 'Cause I see a lot of cool dialogue about like the tactical teams. Every team like picked it was winning it. ⁓ and it and it removes like a tactical element of the game for a very puggy map. Like should be
speaker-0: Holy forgetting I like this. I hate that it was overpass. Nah, I just hate that it was overpass. I really do. Like, I mean, I understand why, but if we're just gonna keep doing this thing where like because the player base doesn't play a difficult map that's completely unorthodox to what's it played in the rest of the pool, that genuinely is uncomfortable to learn. ⁓ you're never we're we're just gonna be stuck with these say like I'm sorry at this point, but like Cash, Mirage, Dust Two, Ancient are just like They're not the same. I'm not trying to like, but they're the same. Especially on a I'm not playing professional counter-strike level. Holy fuck, they're just the same. And I it like I'm happy that Cash is back, but I hate that we're basically just saying, well, people don't want to learn train because it's a hard map. And I I went on this rant previously because a lot of people asked me. And I feel like the problem is also tied to matchmaking and how we incentivize it into the point where Counter Strike used to be public servers and like you you used to like ESCA used to be you join a server and then you sit in there all day and you just ready and people join in and they could choose to join or not. And you'd be basically immersed with like, you know, the same people relatively throughout the day. And this built like more of a ⁓ you had to be a bit more invested in who you're playing with because there's a good chance that you'll just have them on your team again in the same game. And that happens to an extent in like certain speci like scenarios, but for the casual player base, you hop on, you play, you play by yourself, you go into a game and nobody knows a single fucking nade on the map, and you have no cohesion and you have no incentive to work together. And when you play a map like Train, or you play a map like Overpass, you play a map like Nuke, or even a map like Inferno, even though you've played it for a long period time, it's a very hard map to play. And it's very it's not fun or engaging in any sort of way. And What we've done now is like cash is accessible, Mirage is accessible, dust tier is accessible, like they're very simple maps that you can go through. And it's not that they can't be played on a high level, but when you are sitting there, not playing with others in any sort of team play aspect, they're the most accessible maps. And that's why people play them and they sti they stick to them because they're accessible and easy and not you're not rolling the the dice as much playing them. But then what ends up happening is we just have the same shit, man. Like we just we're we're just incentivizing the same types of games to be played each and every single time. And my my issue is is that matchmaking unfortunately has become such a seamless experience that you can just hop in and out of. ⁓ that you get people to play more, and you probably even get them to play more games and more counter strike throughout the day. But it really does just make playing these maps incredibly difficult. And then Valve sees, well, people don't play these maps as much. We should remove it and get people to play more balanced maps. But then we're just encouraging like one style of play, whether we realize it or not. We're almost borderline saying like run it down mid is kind of how this feels. And I don't know how to fix that. Like this is like a grander topic of like matchmaking as a whole and like these systems. And I understand why they exist and they've probably made the game incredibly popular because they exist, but it it just fucking sucks, man. 'Cause I want I want like I want to be able to play those maps, you know? And we can't right now. And my dogs agree.
speaker-2: They hate it.
speaker-1: That didn't sound like an a that didn't sound like an agreement. That sounded like a yeah, fuck overpass. Get it get it out of here. ⁓
speaker-0: Come on, man.
speaker-2: I think See the the point the point about like I feel like we're diluting Counter Strike. Like everything's becoming the same thing. over I'm not a big fan of Overpass, to be honest. I don't I don't really like watching it a huge amount. I think when T sides don't get going, it's like the most mind numbing map to be a part of, like whether you're casting or playing it, like just watching the C T side just destroy this like that Astralis game where they just on overpass did nothing on T side that was One of the worst looks. Obviously Astralis is problem, but for me, I'm happy to have overpass out of there, to be honest. But I would I have I enjoy the sentiment of like another tactical map needs to be out of the game. I want train to come back. I'm I'm I was shocked that train was put out of the pool that quickly. ⁓ I would love to see at least one of those still in the rotation.
speaker-1: Y'all are y'all are very doom and gloom. I I love this change. I'm so glad Overpass is gone. I'm so glad Cash is in. I'm ready to party. Like this is I I think like this is still gonna be a tactical map. I think it was still a very, very tactical map, you know, in in s in early CSGO before it was removed as well. Well think too with the skybox wide open now, the ability to throw fakes, how important mid control is. Like, yeah, there's some there's some philosophical, you know, similarities to some of the other maps, but there but there's always that kind of overlap. You know, there's some there's some strategic elements that go from map to map to map regardless. I thought overpass was significantly boring. I think Cash is just going to have like a it's like a I think there's you know, when it when it I'm I'm curious what's gonna happen when it comes back in because when it left the pool it was right when teams started getting really Much more active on having like aggressive CT game plans. Like that wasn't always a thing for CT sides. Playbooks and IGLs were mostly on like the T side. Nowadays, even your CT side has some crazy ass plays that you bust out. So that's where the map was headed when it got removed. I'm excited to see what's going to be added in when it comes back. And I think it's going to play really interesting. I think it's going to make some really cool clutch and retakeable bomb sites as well, which are always where the most intense moments do. So I think like yeah, you can lament overpass, it's always gonna be subjective based on if you like or or or don't like the map, which I I'm not a huge fan of obviously. ⁓ but I think no one's gonna be complaining when we see this cash get into the kind of counter strike that's being placed played these days.
speaker-0: Let me let me let me just say I like Cash is I like the map. I'm not I'm not like standard cash
speaker-1: This is when NA comes back.
speaker-0: I'm just saying it I I just like ⁓ to get like a little boomer and doom and gloom, like I just don't like the idea that yeah, we're we're just like removing tactical maps, it feels like w that actually have like unique personalities. And it's not that cash doesn't have its own personality or like its own feel to it, but th thank you.
speaker-1: Just say can I can I actually just say something? I and this ⁓ we don't need to have like a deep crazy conversation if you don't want to. I ⁓ yeah, we can. ⁓ I would push back. Like I actually feel like the this whole conversation around like these maps being like a tactical map is like the similar kind of conversation we had when everyone was like, Well, Sanji's an important support player. What are we talking about when it comes to I want I want Airvision
speaker-0: Like, do it. Give me train. ⁓
speaker-1: I watched ParaVision on Overpass win a game going to the B bomb site on T-side twelve times in a row. And then the next day I watched them do the exact same thing. Why how is that a tactical? If you could go to the same bomb site twenty-four rounds in a row and win two games, it is not a tactical map.
speaker-0: Alright, then remove Inferno because that's all we do at Banana. Inferno Inferno right now. Get it get the get Inferno out of here right fucking now because I swear to God that's how we just play every round. Alright? Like let's be honest. The entire We like there's a map that exists that's called Inferno, but one part of the map only matters.
speaker-1: Inferno's rough. The because when you play it in a pug, everyone's got ADD and everyone wants to run towards the big flashy lights, which is Molotovs and H E grenades and banana. Nobody wants to do the blue-collar work of taking over halls, controlling middle. Nobody wants to handle that shit. They just want to run straight into the action and be rampant.
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm not mostly because I'm trying to get the fuck out of the map. I'm like I'm trying to go kill two and get the fuck out of here. Yeah, if I die. Fuck it. Good job. No, like I don't know. It doesn't need to be overpassed though, is all I'm saying, Moses. Like I like I would I'm with Dinko, actually. I really like new train. ⁓ holy fuck, people just can't even I'm not but that's the other thing. Did you see ⁓ man, I wish I see this is where I wish I was like more of a stats guy, like that just had all these folders saved up. If I remember right.
speaker-1: Surprised when I got removed.
speaker-0: Like the numbers of like on train in terms of how much the casual player base played it, like if you just like looked it, even including face it, like you put face it and you put the premiere stats, like nobody fucking played that map. I mean like played train.
speaker-2: No one thing.
speaker-1: It requires way too much calms, way too much communication.
speaker-0: Well that's what I mean is like and so when you say like, you know, I'm not I do like overpass, so I'm not gonna like pretend that I don't just to like appease you. I do like the map. But it doesn't need to be overpass. It could have been like, yeah, like train or man, if we're ever gonna remove like what in the Holy Trinity, ⁓ a Mirage Dust to Inferno, Cash was like the only map that you're bringing in that was gonna be able to match their level of popularity where you could have done that. Like this is This is like to me one one of the few maps where you could have brought in cash and maybe you just sideline Inferno, right? And you actually try to make like a real change to the map. Or that's my own that's what I would like the most. But then even you could say the same for like Mirage. Mirage has not been touched in forever. I know it's it's honestly a good map. I don't have an issue with the map as a whole. I just have an issue that the map is not significantly changed. To the point where I feel like the rounds do feel a bit predictable. And I feel like a lot of the calling on T-side has got to the point where people are just in Vegas gambling. Like the calls are not necessarily built in something where they truly are building out rounds. There was a moment where I was starting to feel like that was being pushed against where Navi was building something like that. And I was like, okay, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's like an actual philosophical way you can consistently win T-side rounds on Mirage. But then as soon as this major rolled around, especially with the C T sides, it just If you played a basic round of Mirage, you got absolutely throttled. And people's response to that was more like all in I don't want to say gimmick, but timing plays. Like just like we're trying to create this one element of timing on this map right now on this T side to get an avenue in, and that's how we'll win the round. And that's all like the the round is to to be able to win. And I ⁓ yeah, so like if if Cash or or Dust Two Inferno were to come out, I just was a little disappointed that something wasn't Like one of those weren't removed for cash because Yeah, because if we bring in like what are you gonna do? You're gonna bring in train next and you're gonna remove Mirage? Yeah, that's gonna go well. Right. Like that's gonna totally play. Like that's not gonna work.
speaker-2: removing ancient because you mentioned like with this gambling side on the T side. Like I feel like the mid fight is such a gamble. Like I feel like I'm watching the same ancient game no matter who's playing it at the moment. ⁓ so I think Cash for Ancient might have been a decent move as well. ⁓ but I I I think moving forward we at some point need to have new maps being introduced because I love
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-2: when Anubis came in and and Ancient came in, like that was fun. Like and they've now become strong staples. I'd like a new map down the line as well. Like a a new one.
speaker-1: Boy. Let's all be careful what we wish for here. We're de we're venturing into dark territory.
speaker-2: Bring for the goodness.
speaker-0: One back.
speaker-1: Just saying, you venture into some dark territory.
speaker-0: Back the old vertigo patch, like the that last one where they I feel like they actually ran out of ideas, so they just said fuck it, we try everything all at once at
speaker-1: They removed they moved the wall and and added the passage wall up.
speaker-0: Yeah, that was absolute psychotic shit. They were just bored, I think, one day and just like simulator, but I still like the map. Like actually. I I didn't I didn't
speaker-2: I think
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, I I liked Vertigo. ⁓ the unpopular opinion. I actually am but not the latest version. I do want to say that. That last version was batshit insane. And that was super unfun to play. It wasn't fun to watch. It just felt like nobody knew what they were allowed to do and everything was just a a clusterfuck. ⁓ but no, I don't know. I'm dude, I'm down. I'm down for new maps. I know you say we opened a dark passage here. You're you're not wrong.
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-1: No, ⁓ it's gotta at some point. We've had this conversation a bunch and I I'm with you. I I don't mind ha I wouldn't mind having some kind of a system of a new map coming in, but it there is an element of once you go down that road, for every ancient that comes in that that seems to be accepted right out of the gate, there's gonna be three vertigos that take two years to get wrong. You know, like yeah Yeah. It's just ⁓ Counter Strike is a hard game to map for, and especially when we have high expectations of the competitive aspect, which
speaker-0: ⁓ Don't don't forget, like it did it took a while to get in. Remember there used to I mean
speaker-1: I don't know about a lot. Maybe Anubis is the one that came in for the most part unchanged for its first
speaker-0: Anubis didn't change at Like I think there was one change. It was the clipping issues on Anubis at the start. Ancient remember they're start. Yeah, they remember the the temple used to have two holes. You used to be able to opt temple into donuts. ⁓ yeah. And then also remember the boxes on cat? Yeah. I'm very proud of that one because I fucking flamed well I call him handsome dev, but I think you know the most talkative dev, I kept telling him delete the fucking boxes. I was like, this is a cluster fight. This is absolutely gross. Get rid of So I'm very
speaker-1: That's right.
speaker-0: And then one day he just sent me a screenshot of the boxes removed on the map. And then I was like, Yes, like let's go. Like so there there was some significant changes to Ancient before I think it got to the point where it is now. I s I still don't necessarily love the map, but Anubis actually came from the community where Ancient was made by Valve, if I remember correctly, on both of those. Yes.
speaker-2: Yeah, Luba's community map. It was very popular.
speaker-1: I think it was the map core, wasn't it?
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. ⁓ I don't know. I I we do need new maps. I've I do think there's a balancing that needs to be accounted for. And I know what you mean with like the Sanji thing, and you're just like basically saying, you know, you you go ahead and rant at a wall, old band, because like some of these maps aren't really tactical, they're just different and that doesn't necessarily mean they're good. And I think that's kind of the point you're getting to with like overpass is you you feel like it's unique but not necessarily in a good way, and that doesn't mean it's a good map just 'cause it's unique and I would
speaker-1: I think it's just too limiting in in too many ways in today's counter strike. So the the size of it is just insane.
speaker-0: It's it's massive, yeah. It's like old cobble. ⁓ and yeah, so I get it. I just yeah, I don't want everything to become run it down mid simulator because once players figure out how cash used to play, which is like you just everything runs through mid and somewhere or another. Nah, dude, they don't. Like face it players are fucking terrified of playing at North America. It's actually embarrassing that our region bans cash a single time and I never get to play it. I had somebody dodge it today. I was like, honestly, we should fucking we should revoke the
speaker-1: Generation.
speaker-0: Nah, we should reverse citizenship if they don't play cash, like at this point. Cause like that like we need a good that gets insane, bro. Like 'cause but no, like once they figured out that it all runs through mid, it's just gonna be like we're coin flipping mid on cash, we're coin flipping mid on ancient, we're coin flipping mirage mid, like we're coin flipping dust too on who wants to be stupid on the
speaker-1: What is
speaker-2: Bring back season.
speaker-0: Alright, I think that's a good place to end it. I think we end it here. I think that's it. And guys, this is your episode of the NQ podcast. CS Money, thank you for sponsoring this. This is me, Dinko, Moses. Source was absolutely great and Moses loved it. But yeah, I think we actually ended there. We leave it right there. No season talk. I'm actually cut it. Cut it, Sico. And the hit the end button.
speaker-1: ⁓ my god, we're we're actually
speaker-0: Hopefully they sold the most they've ever sold. It's about time they use you for your real talent, which is your looks. That's true.
speaker-1: Which is
speaker-2: They should have done that ages ago, man.
speaker-1: Yeah, well I think they're trying to capture the the like the the middle aged market these days. I think there's enough esports people now hitting middle age. They're like that's where the money's at. Let's go there.
speaker-0: They're seeing me sell out events and they're like, Who the fuck is watching Flawn? They gotta have money. We gotta get some How old are these people, dude?
speaker-2: Dude, we were ⁓ we were walking the floor at the event during the semifinal, I think, during the Spirit G two game. ⁓ no the one the semi that was a quarter final. The semifinal was yeah, Spirit Falcons. And we ⁓ we met some guys who were at the F ML land, just walking around the floor in Cologne and that was sick. Like they had FML merch on, everything man. It was sick.
speaker-0: Are you sure they were actually at the event? Wait, you're talking about the Europeans, the guys that sat up front with the signs?
speaker-2: No no no. They were like near the back on the floor, they had ⁓ FML hoodies.
speaker-0: Okay. There was a lot of them. Yeah, the guys up front that always give out the custom signs. You know who I'm talking about? They go to a lot of events. They made the one behind me. ⁓ wait. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They always make custom ones. They had a bunch of FML merch on too. That was pretty cool to see. Definitely is always an ego boost. I won't lie. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, I saw that.
speaker-1: I notice more ⁓ I'm I notice more just fuck flom signs out in the crowd than anything I don't real fans stopping me. Does that make you feel what does that make you feel?
speaker-0: No, it's good. That's good. I I mean I know you're not like a Twitch goer, but like it's a literal emote in my chat. I know. I know. So ESL finally figured it out though that like it's not a bad thing. I think that one took him a while. I kept telling him I like, it's fine. I think before they literally would
speaker-1: Ven.
speaker-2: Well I think I think it helps that fuck you Apex has become a global phenomenon, so I I think everything's okay there.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. North American culture's expanding. We're we had a win, but we got some chances.
speaker-2: Taxi driver and he was talking about the the fuck you apex chant. Like he was like a loose follower of Counter Strike. He was Turkish guy and and knew about Aurora and he goes, Why does everybody say like ⁓ fuck you Apex? and and that was you know it's bad when taxi drivers going around Kahlow and know about the chant. Everyone's fucking Apex apparently.
speaker-1: Why do you say North America can't win when we just when we just have a super team forming?
speaker-0: ⁓ brother.
speaker-1: I see.
speaker-0: That's not on the list first off. That is nowhere on the list
speaker-2: That wasn't included on the list of topics, Jason. That is a curveball.
speaker-1: Yeah, None of you want to talk about that. None of you want to bring it up.
speaker-2: I guess we could.
speaker-0: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also we gotta talk about the fact that ⁓ we gotta interrupt Moses real quick. But don't forget that the podcast is sponsored by CS Money. That way I can pay Moses and Dinko to keep showing up on time even when it's fucking hot as the devil's anus where Dinko's at, and he's got a bright and shining smile on his face. So perfect segue out of me to get the sponsor.
speaker-1: Snow or sleep, I'll be there, just like the post office.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, I mean, okay. The answer is we're not talking about that roster until they like do something. I'm here for it. I'm honestly, you know what the worst part is, Jason? They could probably beat a lot of the teams in North America right now. That's like that's like the that's the honest truth. That's what I that's what actually scares me. What scares me is I see that team and I'm like, you know, they could probably in like six months qualify for my land, which means they're like top six and
speaker-1: Yeah, but I guess the question is can they survive for six months?
speaker-0: That's my point. That's why I'm saying I wait. You know what I mean? That's like that's why like I I believe the players ability. I don't believe the players drive. I'm not sure where they're at. Sure. ⁓ and that's not the I like the guys. But that's fair. Yeah. But like I like the guys. I just think that I can't tell if this is a last raw because we don't know what else, or we tried other things and we realized that maybe like this is actually like I really want this to be like a last raw, you know what I mean? And like let's see how this goes. So Yeah, I I'm here for it. I'll we'll see. I ⁓ I don't think there's really much to talk about right now. I think
speaker-1: It's grabbed your interest, but you're not ready yet. You're not ready yet to open.
speaker-0: No, no I'm not.
speaker-2: If anybody's unaware what we're talking about, Stuart 2K's bad T. But the NA qualifier roster already has a stand in. So I'm not feeling too confident about the future of the situation over there.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Well yeah. That one's just that one's just a little bit of banter to kick the
speaker-0: Yeah, we'll just we'll wait and see. We're gonna bend that one. We'll we'll bend that one like full on.
speaker-1: Can you have a stand in if you don't even have a full official roster? Like as a philosophical question.
speaker-0: I mean when I think yes you can because on FaceIT you list your starters. You have to list your starters. So I can see that they are using a substitute. And that is not the intended five, at least according to the face it website, which we all know is perfect in every way with zero flaws. So the ⁓ yeah, I think that's that's we'll wait and see. But speaking of stury, how about ⁓ we'll get right into Nico winning his first major After, you know, obviously Nico was carried by Stu at Dallas and it clearly, you know, that was that was my segue there. Yeah, he was carried by Stu in Dallas and now he finally got his major. Now that Stu's not playing, Stu simply allowed Nico to get his major, I think, is the angle we want to take here. Thoughts?
speaker-2: Yeah, it really taught him how to win, you know, give him that mentality. And I think ⁓ that was the thing that got him over the line finally, a grand final on the IM.
speaker-0: That was it. That was it. Now how do you guys actually feel though? Do you guys feel like it's ⁓ it's changed anything like ⁓ for you? Like like like legacy, how you view ⁓ like
speaker-2: Well yeah, big time. ⁓ I feel a lot less sad ⁓ about about Nico's career, man. Like he's finally got a major. He's been waiting for such a long time. ⁓ you know, I ⁓ we were all sitting there at the edge of our seats kind watching in that final and it was a row of us up in the HL TV booth and we were watching it just on on the side and we're like, Are we actually gonna watch Nico finally win a major? And yeah, you know, every everyone in that line of people who had been watching him for ten years actually kind of got emotional, you know, and that was a super nice thing to be a part of. And I think we all realised like in in a weird way we've all kind of been a part of his journey to get to this point. And it was just such a relief, even as like a just a fan of watching Counter Strike and someone who's been involved in the scene to see Nico, who so deserves a major title, finally get one. ⁓ and do it in one of the best events, if not the best event ever. You know, the scale of that event, the storytelling from ESL and the other broadcast on was incredible. ⁓ I was just happy that it got to be told in that way. Like all these VTs before, you know, footage of him in the little land cafe where he grew up, all the way to like ten years ago playing in Mouse and now in Falcons. So I think that was ⁓ a beautiful way for him to finally win the major and ⁓ it obviously cements his legacy as one of the greatest of all time.
speaker-1: That was very that was very sentimental. I don't know how I'm supposed to follow that up. ⁓
speaker-2: No it doesn't change shit.
speaker-0: It didn didn't change shit for me. There you go. That's ⁓ Moses nailed it on the desk. He moved the goalpost immediately and I was so there for it because I No
speaker-1: This is PM if I say it out loud.
speaker-0: Yeah, like I'm with you. Like when you sit on the desk I was like, Thank you. Not because not and this is actually because out of respect for Nico, not it's not a disrespectful thing. Like I feel like the major was a formality, not something I needed to change how I feel about Nico and his career. I I like it doesn't make him more of a great player or less it it's just like, Hey you got yours and I'm happy you got yours. Like it's
speaker-2: leaves him with no caveats, you when we look back in the past we can't say Nico this, he did all that. But he never won a major. You know, didn't now he have
speaker-0: ⁓ no, that's one.
speaker-1: I think having that having that one major, like it's just is like kind of like unlocks the door to like certain conversations where not having it is always gonna hold you back. But like in like an actual practical sense, no, it didn't change anything. Like he's still I still kind of waver st on who I think is the greatest rifler of all time between between him and Rops. Like I still kind of bounce back and forth at the moment and not really sure which way I want to go. So winning the major didn't didn't really change that. He's not there yet, but but it seems like there's a likelihood he might at some point in the future if he keeps this shit up. but yeah. I'm with you. It didn't it didn't like change much in my grand scheme of where I'm placing him or what I think he's capable of. I think I was most impressed by how everything came together with him like everything kind of being realized with the whole conversation on him stepping back to be more of a third star. And he still had insane stats and he still had insane impact and he still had insane eye tests in the games, but you could see him finding ways to flourish while also Monasy and Kiyosuke were were blowing up the scoreboard and the server as well. Which I think is something he struggled with in the past where it felt like that team was like you get Nico popping off and no one else, or you get other people popping off but not Nico. I thought that was very impressive to see whether it was him or Kerrigan, whatever whatever happened, it like it was just like, ⁓ it's you're like, ⁓ that's the way this feels like it should have been working for a long time. so that was cool seeing him kind of take that step back and find the ability to still have a crazy level of impact.
speaker-0: Do you think that was the single greatest thing as to why Falcons won? What would you attribute the Falcons win to the most? I personally would go the Kerrigan angle, which is as the number one Kerrigan flamer on here for his kills, I will take the L and I will say Moses good job. ⁓ I'm not I'm not changing my tune. I s I think that but I think that was the run. I mean, I think like when I see that team play and when I watch them, I actually do think that
speaker-1: Not you two, Flum. ⁓
speaker-0: You know, it's never that I doubted Kerrigan's IGLing ability, but what I did doubt was his ability to get the kills in the server that were needed, which he did. And it doesn't matter how many times I think some of those plays might work again. They did work there, and that's what matters most. And then I think also when I watched that Falcons team, something that I saw him do, and ⁓ he did actually rein them in somehow. Like he actually did. ⁓ there was a
speaker-1: Calmed him down.
speaker-0: I I remember an exact moment on Inferno that Kosuke completely fucked up the round where I almost lost my shit where this guy decided to jiggle peek Porch with bomb on him and they were gonna go for an arch rap late into the round and Kerrigan had to completely change his call because Kiosk over peeked and died. But that they called a timeout, Kerrigan reeled it back in and then they regrouped. But those types of moments are what I didn't see anymore. Like I'm using that as an example as what I saw like w that would constantly hinder Falcons. And I just want to give Kerrigan his flowers because genuinely I still think his fracking is liability to the point where I still doubt the long term consistency of this roster. But also at the same time, I did see Kiosk grow immensely under him in a short period of time that I can't also ignore and not be like, that is to me what unlocked Falcons. Is you mentioned the Nico being the third star alongside them. But I saw a level of consistency out of Kiyosuke that I've never previously seen in a way that I feel like I can trust him in a game and Kerrigan, I believe, unlocked that.
speaker-2: Yeah, I would ⁓ agree a hundred percent with it that angle, you know, like the fact that Kiyosuke was just a whole different level. Finally we could almost believe the hype in him. We got to see what everybody was talking about, why everybody was excited about him. 'Cause I think in the other version of the team with Kick Sand he showed little glimpses of it, but in the especially important games he was he just literally looked lost. ⁓ so I think just Managing hin inside the server and managing him outside the server, I think Kerrigan did a fantastic job. I mean if you watch the behind the scenes vlogs and stuff, like you can see Kerrigan directly talking to him. K Suke is always around him, like around the hotel and hanging out. Like he's definitely taking him on through his wing, and I think that's such an important thing for this Falcon squad. And we heard Nico talking about in a couple of interviews with the press at the event saying You know, the difference in in Kiyosuke when Kerrigan's coming to the squad is fantastic. He's such an important player for Falcon system, takes the space, is the front man for the attacks. And he's he was such a good playoff player in Astana and it only got better here in Cologne. ⁓ and I think obviously Kerrigan's a massive part of that. ⁓ but also Zonic was saying, you know, he's won all major finals that he's been in. That's six and now he's got six titles. It's incredible. But he was saying that he's never won a major final without players being willing to Play outside of the box, you know, make that play through a smoke, push something they normally wouldn't, and having the the balls basically to make a play that's gonna win you a round. And Kerrigan like made all those plays, especially in those playoffs, you know, making the push of the double doors on dust too and that beat bomb side through the smoke, somehow getting a multi-kill out of it. Like these are plays that he wasn't scared to do, and and I think just the impact he had in those rounds as well, in such important swing points of the games. ⁓ really important from Kerrigan as well. So yeah, it's it's obviously Kerrigan's the missing piece and just unlock that magic for Falcons that are on the hallway.
speaker-1: Mean the g I mean the question is kinda like boring if you just go to Kerrigan because that is like the only true answer. Like if you take away Kerrigan, 'cause like Kerrigan activated everything, right? Like Kerrigan got everyone feeling w like so like it's all the answer is obviously Kerrigan, but if you take that away, like what's the most important? Is it Nico being able to find consistency as the quote third star? Is it the the performance of Kiyasuki Kiyosuke, who I still can't pronounce his name the same way every single time I say it? Is it Mossy part of the spot with the A W P I know it's just a game within a game, really. ⁓ it was one I don't know. I think for for me it's for it's Kiyosuke. Like for me, I think his his pop-off, like I think in like the consistency he had, like after Kerrigan, I think that's the most important part. If you'll notice like all throughout the game too, like he was getting the hero AK forty seven drops, you in Anubis when they needed that the force by win. He's the one who got the two entries with the dropped AK Hero AK. So it's like they're they're putting those resources in his hand And I think, yeah, I don't I don't I don't know I what it what it truly is on the inside. Maybe it's the confidence he feels from Kerrigan is making him feel much more comfortable. Maybe there's something tactically that's being done. But either way, I think his development and the impact he's able to find as such a young player is like that was that was the first event that I saw from start to finish where I was like, Okay, I I get I get I truly get the excitement around him. You know what I mean? Like you see glimpse of it of it in the past, but like that was the this was like the first time I was like, ⁓ shit, like that's this kid's actually a monster.
speaker-0: Yeah. Well I think let me let me clickbait it real quick. Do you do you guys think 'cause that 'cause I think we could talk about Falcons for a minute. So let me clickbait this one. Do you think Falcons, after what you saw, wins one more tournament this year?
speaker-1: Show me how it's done.
speaker-2: Yes. One. I think they could win EWC. And I think it's because of the map pool change as well. Like it just helps Falcons even more, I think, with overpass being gone. Like you remove a tactical map out of the pool and you you add another one where it's like aim stars are gonna start popping off. You remove a big strength of their biggest competitor in Vitality. I think Falcons definitely win at least one more trophy this season. ⁓ and that's exciting because now you have like another team to go up against Vitality for the second half of the year.
speaker-0: Do they win one? So you think there's potential for more, but for sure one. Yeah. Okay. Moses, what do think? So before we continue that wonderful conversation, I need to thank today's sponsor for the NQ podcast, CS Money, because without them, Money Man Moses wouldn't be able to be here and he wouldn't be able to make time for us. So thank you very much, CS Money, for sponsoring NQ. As many of you guys already know, if you're familiar with my content, CS Money is strictly a trading and marketplace website. So I got lower prices than Steam. You can do quick trades. They have probably one of the biggest inventories, if not the biggest, of any site out there. You could use PayPal or crypto if you want to buy through the marketplace. They also have like an instant sell feature. So if you're just trying to move your stuff quick for whatever reason, you could do that directly through them and sell some of your inventory. If that sounds interesting, make sure you guys check out the link in the description below. As always, like to say, be careful, guys, not just like with this or with anything. Just be careful with clicking links out there. There's a lot of impersonators of all of these sites, and I just want people to be careful. Genuinely. So just you know, just a little warning for me. We'll get back into the video now.
speaker-1: ⁓ without looking up what events they're going to for the rest of the year, I would just say yes. I I would think they're gonna win at least one more. There's gotta be some events that some of the other top teams aren't at. And then I mean, they beat all of them. Let's see, you know, Spirit's probably the one I'm most comfortable with their performance. Let's see how Vitality comes back and responds because they looked flat. Let's see if Navi ends up making any changes. A rover's gonna have changes, G2 has changes. So I mean, you're in a field now where like a good amount of the other top teams that have been around are making some moves ⁓ to try and catch up to you now. ⁓ so yeah, I think one more, I think with more time with Kerrigan. I mean, I think I think even Kerrigan falls on the same line as your your thinking too, where it's like, Is this actually going to be viable long term? You know, he even kind of has been saying, I know my fracking output isn't isn't there where it needs to be. I've just been focusing entirely on the team stuff and the playbook and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the IGL angle of it. So when he gets more time and he can settle in a little bit more and feel comfortable a little bit more to focus on his individuals, I think they can get even better. ⁓ so I mean This'll it'll be interesting to see what what happens, but yeah, one more I don't think is a a bad bad bet by any means.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I I still kind of feel like they could
speaker-1: That wasn't very that wasn't a very clickbaity answer. You gave a clickbaity question, I didn't give a clickbait.
speaker-0: No, that's okay. I wasn't expecting it. Don't worry. Perfect. Yeah. Sick will work on that. Yeah. ⁓ we'll just get ⁓ to like say like if you said no at any point in there, we just put no. ⁓
speaker-1: I'm glad I needed to learn a close up from the master.
speaker-2: I have with Falcons, and it's the fact that they were built to win a major, and they've got some really young pieces that are gonna move forward for the future, right? Like Monasi, Kiyosuke, these players are going nowhere. But it's the Nico, Karrigan, Zonic, like that part of the team for me. Like Nico will stick around for a while longer, but obviously his pursuit, his main goal has been winning a major. Now he's now he's done it. Zonic's talking about in these interviews, you know, how he's been away from his kids for a long time. Considering like retirement at some point in the future. He's gonna have to have that conversation with his family before he re-signs the contract with Falcons. You know, Kerrigan probably doesn't have a huge amount of playing time left in in his career, you know, down the line. So the the thing for me for Falcons is there g there's gonna have to be a transition to know you've got these pieces that are obviously gonna be for the future, but you know that you've got some that are aging out relatively soon and you've got to somehow get proactive on those before you just fizzle out and not be competitive. So that's the only worrying thing for me, Falcons. I feel like it's a win now, win as much as you can.
speaker-1: No short term scary things, all long term scary things for Dinko.
speaker-2: Exactly. I'm just kind of seeing down the line. Seeing that Falcons, if they are gonna win, you gotta do it now. You know, make the most of this, run off the matrix, get that momentum going. 'Cause I don't think long term this Falcons team is one we're gonna consistently see deep into the years.
speaker-1: It's a good problem to have though, isn't it, when you have like a nice experience, like leadership figures and like the young core that you can kinda lean on. Like they have a good mix. It's all about styling it out and sticking the landing, which is difficult apparently in in esports these days.
speaker-0: It is. Well, I was gonna say, I mean, I I think I mean, this is my if I were picking things and I was making it a video game of like roster moves, I mean the the natural and most logical thing to me is Kerrigan becomes a coach when Zonic retires and Nico takes over the IGL role. I think that actually the longer that those two stay together on a team I have this personal theory that Nico, it's always his team, and whoever the IGL is there is along for the ride, and that will be how it always is, which is a detrimental thing if Nico ever thinks that he knows better than you. And that's not it necessarily always a toxic thing. It's not it's like I know on the internet everybody's loves like this idea that one person just hates the other or something and then they like kick the other one, but Really what I see more so happening is over time as things happen is if Nico starts to believe less than Kerrigan once again at any point in time, and maybe he starts making some mid round decisions himself, and then people start wanting to do what Nico does because modesty is basically his child at this point. And then KOSK might fall under the like you just kind of have like a thing where it can create like separation in the team, where the longer that that happens and if they don't have or carry their success, I just wonder If you don't move out Zonic, then get Kerrigan as like the coach. Like it does this kind of create like a something you can't stop and then it just makes all of it blow up in your face.
speaker-1: I think it's ⁓ it's a hard conversation to have just because of we I don't know like the time scale, like when we said that he doesn't have a la whole lot of time, are you expect him to be retired by the end of next year? Like, you know, is it end of twenty twenty si like what's so in that sense, like I don't want to speculate too much down that road. Yeah, exactly. I think also that that whole effect that you that you're talking about between Kerrigan and Nico there, I think that's just actually a natural thing that Kerrigan's gone through already like a number of times in his career, whether it's with Astralis, whether it's with FaZe, ⁓ all of his rosters, that's like the number one thing they all say is eventually you get to a point where those calls start working a little bit less and then you have less faith in them. And then when he calls them, you're kind of half asking them because you've lost faith in it step by step over time. And I think Depreze even explains it on a desk a number of times as well over the years. So I think that's just like a natural, natural thing with this calling style, which again is like, I guess what how how long do you expect this period of faith to last? Like certainly winning the major is gonna boost it, at least till the end of the year. And then if that starts fading away, how long do they have like We all kind of anticipate the Nico to IGL move to happen at some point. Again, the time scale I just no fun.
speaker-0: time so it's yeah yeah it's not like we're just manufacturing fantasies either so it's it's something where i everybody's talked about different things. Zonic's talked about retirement. Kerrigan's talked about basically wanting to go until the wheels fall off, but I think he wants to stick around when that happens. So I think he's never said explicitly he wants to coach but also I think he said that he wants to basically ride it out and then he doesn't want to necessarily just leave either. ⁓ well I don't know
speaker-2: I want him in the broadcast world. That would be so sick if we could get Kerrigan on the top.
speaker-0: Desk would be so sick, but also I feel like he's not I don't think you play as long as Kerrigan has and like I don't know. Maybe I don't know. We'll we'll see. I
speaker-1: He might he might do like a little stop gap in the broadcast. Yeah, bring him all like he looks while he looks for a team, you know what I'm saying? He's like another ⁓
speaker-0: The coach, ⁓ yeah, we love that arc around here, don't we, Mos
speaker-2: I do.
speaker-1: Most of them have killed it. Most of ⁓ have done a great job. I'd say at least half of them.
speaker-2: You know, there's there's a story ⁓ with our casting, you know, speaking about Kiyosuke. We were a couple of things we were talking about before we got into that playoff game. We looked at each other, we're like, Yeah, we okay, couple of things we need to know. We need to make sure we're saying Kiyosuke the same way, you know. Okay, that's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna say Falcons instead of Falcons, 'cause like the British pronunciation is Falcon. Yeah. So that's the British way of saying it. So Falcons, right? So ⁓ we c we got up there. First half goes live, everything kinda Jason goes.
speaker-0: Not falcons, man.
speaker-2: Kayasuke or whatever, we both just look at each other, laugh, start casting. I'm just going I finish the half, I'm like, I knew Falcons, Falcons, Falcons. Like it just gets stuck in your head, man. It's so hard. Once the game goes live, things just start you stop thinking about things like that.
speaker-1: Well it's cause I worked so hard to get the proper one, the Kiyasuke. And then ⁓ everyone switched back. Yeah. And now I've got it all messed up in my brain about six different ways that it's been locked in at various points. So it's just it's just spur of the moment.
speaker-0: I'll keep we'll keep it different here too, man. But ⁓ all right, all right, that's enough glazing of Falcons, I think. I think that's good. What do we ⁓ we'll go with the runner up real quick. How do you guys feel about Fury right now? You guys think that I I I like their run, but I still that run, especially the way it ended in the final for me, I don't really have faith in this roster like to really make any deep runs ⁓ for the foreseeable future for the rest of the year. Like the the ideal like fallen send off I think literally died in that final. I don't think he's gonna win it. I don't think Fury's winning a tournament for the rest of the year.
speaker-2: I think when you look at that other side of the bracket where all the good teams were, Furia would be at the bottom of that list. I think potentially even below G two, who have now made a change, right? And the thing going into the final The thing going into that final was like Furia haven't really been battle tested at all through the major. Like they didn't really play a huge team on their way there and even their playoff side of the bracket, you know, not playing great teams. So once you get to that final, Falcons have already played against every one of the best teams in the world. ⁓ so I wasn't surprised to s see them get blown out of the water to be honest. ⁓ I think it's a great result for Fury ⁓ showing that they can make it to a major if the cards fall in their favor. But yeah, I'm with you. I don't think they're gonna be trophy challengers down the line. I think it's just gonna be a difficult team to get through. And if the bracket really favors them then yeah it can be a runners up. But I think that's the best for Fury. I think runners up at a major is an incredible result but I think that's just kind of the best.
speaker-0: What was going on with Queserado, you think, man? I like I just felt like Queserado was like not Queserado, that event. I feel like Yuri was so back and it was like holy shit. And we saw glimpses of Maldon.
speaker-1: He didn't feel like he had a killer instinct, did he? Like I feel like the only time I saw him having ⁓ having great games is if Molodoy was popping off or if ⁓ if your Kinder was popping off with opening kills and K Serata kinda like sliding into some space, but he didn't seem to have like any like real initiative or like go for the throat kind of mentality at this event. I don't know. So part of me feels that I watch Furia, I don't feel like they have like the same level of like polish and like detail and depth to their game. I feel like a lot of like a lot of the moves they make are still kind of d you know, done done on vibes and you know, like Done on like just kind of like improving calling, like there's not as much protocols and layers to the decision making. I could be I could be very wrong on that. It's just a feeling I get when I when I watch them play that I I'm like, these guys are kind of just working this out. They didn't like really have this planned out. This is just kind of something they're they're working with on the fly in terms of how they're gonna approach it. So I don't know. I I'm with you guys though. I like I wasn't high on them coming into the major either either. Was surprised to see how well they they looked going into things and throughout the the playoff run. ⁓ but I'm not I'm still not all that high on them despite the second place finish. It's cool. created a cool story. Not a great game. I think it was clear it was clear seeing seeing as as Dinko said, it was clear seeing Falcons come out of the other side and just be like, ⁓ shit, this team is ready to fuck. You know, like they were they were just ready for that grand final.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a little unfortunate. I I feel like if Case Rado was even playing like ninety-five percent, we actually have such an insane final. Not that he was like terrible necessarily, but it's yeah, you just lacked like that killer instinct is because I think you know, when you consider how slow of start the Fury had in those finals, still getting to eight each time, and then you realize like that they basically spotted them six rounds or like every even when they won the pistol they they they lost the force by if I remember correctly. It's pretty brutal. Like that's just like you can't That's why that final also felt so dominant, is because the entire time it just felt like Fury was gasping for air, trying to do anything, and Falcons was just in the driver's seat. And where every single time there was a a mistake from Falcons, I feel like Kerrigan immediately corrected it. Like almost instantaneously, the very next round, they just got right back on it. Everybody moved on. And that's new for that that I would say an eco roster. Like just to put it bluntly, I think that's new. And ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. It was a little disappointing. Little little slow start, I guess, out of the disappointing final, but man, we got lucky with the one side of the bracket. That was absolute whole I mean, holy shit. That was
speaker-2: Hella like. the greatest games you could ask for really like and on probably the one I wasn't expecting to pop off was the G two spirit game. And yeah. It was the best one. I feel like that was the best game out of all of them in the major
speaker-1: I had to like stop watching that game. I had to like walk away and stop tuning into it. Because we were casting the next game and it it had been going on for like five and a half hours and I was getting so excited by the game that I was like getting tired. I was like, Okay, well, I can't fucking watch this anymore. It it was crazy how how how awesome those games were on that day. The both quarterfinals, then the semifinal on that side was wild as well.
speaker-2: Yeah, I was sitting in the green room with Yanko during that game and he was like, ⁓ do you wanna go watch in the arena? And then we didn't get up. And then the Magics one V four happened and we were like, Should have went in the fucking arena. Like should have got off and missed it. We watched that one in the green room, everyone was just going crazy. ⁓ but then we went out and watched the rest of the game. It was nuts. That was just such a sick game. The the Magics one v four, like that is that was special. That was a special moment. ⁓ so really cool to see that. ⁓ and great to see like G two get to a level where they can compete. I d I really didn't expect to have G two coming into the playoffs, to be honest. Like I gotta say, you're right, Jason. Heavy guard is the truth.
speaker-0: Heavy god is heavy god.
speaker-1: But he
speaker-0: Did go missing in the third map, gotta be honest.
speaker-1: It's sorry, his PC crashed, you know, threw threw him off his game a little bit. You know? Yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: No, honestly fair, that was a giant cluster. Fuck that. I felt but yeah, what a fucking major out of him. I mean, the the third map being a bit rough is to be expected, I guess. But dude, holy shit magics, man. Like, no coach. Yep. A team known to kind of struggle emotionally, right? Like, even if we don't see them as much, like maybe They don't give us like maybe the Alish cams as much. We'll get like a nice slam every once in a while or Donk like visibly getting upset. But the rest of ⁓ are pretty kinda like to themselves, I'd say. But dude, magics. Holy shit. Like I I I I like I've been homing, you know, big homer for Spirit, just like thinking that they could do it, but I did not expect that actually. The amount of resilience that they showed without a coach and some of the like just finding new ways to win and not just G two, the nine Z game too. Like I know people might not rate nine Z as highly, but to do
speaker-1: At least for those games they were ⁓
speaker-0: Multiple of those types of series for Magics with just no breathing room for a coach, not calling timeouts at all, even for himself, and just always having a next round, like, was genuinely truly impressive. Like maybe if Kerrigan didn't have the run with Falcons, I'd say Magic's was the best IGL for sure of the of the entire major in terms of what he was doing. And I was really impressed. I was just I was super impressed. ⁓ do you guys think that they bring in Halley or do you think they're gonna do ⁓ was it Softic is is his name? You guys have like I
speaker-1: They were saying, I have no insight, I'll tell you what I'd do.
speaker-0: Yeah, so.
speaker-1: Which is soft tech? Yeah. Yeah, I would I would
speaker-2: Not thick.
speaker-0: Yeah, such yeah, yeah, one of them.
speaker-2: So actually
speaker-1: You threw me off. I I would tell Halley to continue with the big picture stuff and I'd be like, Whatever we need on in the you know, do the big picture stuff. Satfake got the detail work, he's gonna be with the team. That seems to have knighted things. We're gonna continue going this road.
speaker-2: That's what they said was happening during this major ride. Like the the idea was that Solfik was doing the micro side of the game, Holly doing the the macro side of the game and and that system is working. So I think that would be ⁓ like h they just switch roles, you know, Solfik becomes main coach, Holly to the assistant coach. I think that's a far better plan. I think that's a much, much better setup for spirit.
speaker-1: It's it's not just the coaching stuff though. Like Tanier, you know, had like, you know, some up and down games, but I think overall I was I saw a lot more like heavy impact games out of him for the spirit side. I thought that was cool. Shiro had another really good event. Like they also in the Falcon scent kinda ha in the Falcon scent also had most of the players they needed to show that like step up in development also delivered for him in the big moments. Like Donk was a beast all the way throughout. We know that's gonna happen. Shiro with the way he played top ten player of the event. Tanir I think did good with the impact, but you're right, the magic's the magic's calling with all those overtimes, whether it was a small st small stage and small crowd or big stage and fifteen thousand people, he he fucking handled like like eight different overtimes throughout this event. That's a wild thing to do without a code.
speaker-2: The only issue was Donk actually. Like that that's the weird thing about spirits. Like Donk wasn't
speaker-1: Ooh, here we go. ⁓
speaker-0: Finish line.
speaker-2: The finish line wasn't wasn't doing donk things. Like he was actually kind of missing ⁓ in terms of what you need from him and what you need him to be for spirit to be the best. I mean, that's what we've always said though on the podcast, especially you Jason, you know, leaning into the spirit side of things, it's like if they don't have Donk, like all the positives you just said about spirit like Syrah playing better, Tanir being unlocked, Magic's calling great, it still wasn't enough for them to get it through to the major final. And that's because Donk wasn't quite at his top level.
speaker-1: Almost though.
speaker-2: Yeah almost you.
speaker-0: Almost. ⁓
speaker-1: So I mean, yeah, which is like if your spirit and you made these roster changes to kind of like proof yourself against a bad donk series or bad donk game, like you have to say on one level one level you got a perfect example, mission accomplished, you played the team who goes on to win the major took close overtime. And there's no consolation in that as a player, but I think from like a front office perspective, you see that and you're like, Okay, good. We we have some players in positions now that can deliver if he if he's having a quiet game and can kind of carry him through some tough stretches, and that's exactly what we wanted to do. was make this a dane more dangerous roster top to bottom. And they've they've done exactly that.
speaker-0: Do you think they beat Falcons with Sophic there? ⁓ shit, I lagged him up. Okay, there we go. ⁓
speaker-1: n ⁓ no. But I mean, I don't know. Like I don't know. I really don't know.
speaker-0: I know it's a big it's a it's a it's a you know this is clickbait, but I was just curious like
speaker-1: Do I do I think he's gonna have that one answer? Maybe maybe he would have had a cool note, maybe he would have had a cool trick or something to say, but I think also, you know, I look at how Falcons was playing in that series and in that map, and you know, you had some truly fucking like, you know, God sent moments that go in the way of Falcon this was the Kerrigan playing to the beat bomb site, like that's what it took to beat you. So on some sense there's nothing a coach is gonna do to prevent that from happening, you know, you know.
speaker-2: Yeah. ⁓ I think the only way that could have happened is if you know, Saltfake had noticed something Donk was doing individually, he was able to call a timeout and get a little bit more out of Dawnk. Well, I think that would be the only way, right? Like you maybe unlock him a little deeper into the game.
speaker-0: Well, because that's what we're giving us credit.
speaker-2: Kyosuke beating up on Spirit, once had him in their ranks, sold him off over there for the big money dust.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's just interesting 'cause everybody always talks and praises Sophic for what he's done on the micro level to enable players to do more, especially when it comes to Donk success. So that's why I was kind of like, Well, maybe maybe in the in a bad Donk game, if he was actually there, he could have said something to help magics call something or enable Donk it away that gets him more into the game. I definitely couldn't have found it. It's a it's a butterfly. Yeah. Yeah, it's a butterfly effect type thing. It's it's whatever.
speaker-1: Also, let's be real, nobody actually truly knows what the hell he does or provides that we're all using buzzwords picked out of the PR press releases, just the same as anybody, 'cause it sounds kinda cool to be like, Yeah, this guy's macro and this guy's doing the detail like
speaker-0: Some macro and some micro gameplay. Yeah. Yeah. He showed me a flash once. It was sick. It worked. All right. Yeah. I I I think we're walking into a season though of really it's gonna be Spirit versus Falcons. I I have this weird feeling with vitality right now. I don't know what it is. I'm starting to not not fully. They still get the benefit of the doubt.
speaker-1: They gonna win one tournament this year?
speaker-0: I don't know. I I don't ⁓ it's that bad. I really feel like they don't have the engine on. I feel like it's turned off. And when I see them play, that's where I that before, that's where I give A Apex his IGLing and his ability to lead the most amount of credit. And when I saw them at the ma like if you can't turn it on for the major, what will turn it on? Like like the just losing? Maybe and then the next step is like, okay, but they lost and I Maybe it's the they brushed it off because they didn't crack. So then the loss really didn't hit him as much ⁓ in the ego as it as it they needed it to to turn on the engine again. And maybe this is what actually cold starts the engine 'cause it was a big enough loss to get him going. But yeah, like I don't know, it just it looked flat. They looked flat. They didn't come out Yeah. I know, well that but that's that's not who I'm doubting, right? It's the how much like that that's I d I don't doubt his
speaker-1: Looks like a truck.
speaker-0: Grind and and what he wants to do, even for a second. But his ability as a leader was what was so impressive. Is he got the young guys, he got the Rops and the Zywas never lose the focus on that. And this is the first time because previously, when you lose some of the smaller tournaments leading up to the major, I feel very confident in saying, I don't believe it yet. I'm gonna wait till the major. When you fuck up at the major and it doesn't look like you you're on, and That's where th yeah, that's where I have concerns. If you can't turn it on for a major then what the fuck
speaker-2: agree with you like I think coming out of Atlanta, that loss, I think every player probably in the back well in the back of their head or the front of their head, they're just say, okay, we that only happened 'cause we went on vacation, we were weren't practicing ahead of this. ⁓ so I think th not necessarily it wasn't like a a kick up the ass to the level it maybe needed to be. ⁓ then they came to this event put and you did practice leading into this and you know you took loss to nine Z earlier in the competition, you lost a map in your opening game to foot. You know, it wasn't looking great for Vitality the whole way through that tournament. And even in the playoffs, not looking great, but s they're still so good that they got thirteen eleven on all three maps against the eventual winners of the event. You know, so like I I think no one would say that Vitality were playing anywhere near close to what they can play at that major and they were still thirteen eleven, every map should have pushed into overtime. I this is a situation where I just think Vitality are going to leave the rest of the players are gonna pick it up and I I definitely see them just coming back to the top of the world after this event. I think it's gonna be enough of a wake up call. ⁓ Vitality have too much class and too much of a system, I think they're gonna be back to winning ways.
speaker-1: Think I think they're at least gonna be competitive in the conversation. I think it'll be Spirit, Vitality, Falcons as like a top three that are gonna be battling out for for trophies. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, I don't I don't know. I can't see Vitality disappearing that much. But I do remember ⁓ the very first game we casted their very first game at stage three against Foot. I remember getting done with that series after Vitality won and I was just like, It doesn't look like Vitality's played this game in a while, you know, like I just like saw some of like the movement on the map, it looked like they'd You just been away from it a little bit too long and had a little bit.
speaker-2: the nine Z loss, right? That's what we the one we casted was them losing to nine Z. And that was like nine Z were also playing really well, you know, but
speaker-1: Shooting really hard, but the player I followed.
speaker-2: Zaiwoo, like those that's you ⁓ Like we're just missing like Zaiwu is missing so many AWP shots in that game against Nine Z. It was like another miss from Xaiwoo. I feel like that was the most common phrase that I used throughout that game.
speaker-0: Like an ultimate game. Yeah, literally. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.
speaker-2: Special move.
speaker-1: I'm not I'm not significantly worried about him, but I know what you mean when you say like you have like a funny feeling about him 'cause I think like, you know, I think that's part of the reason why that hit Apex so hard was because like he probably in his mind is like we didn't even fucking fight, you know, we didn't play count the game of Counter Strike, you know, we we just came in limp and the stylistic loss. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I'm not super worried about them while also saying that was weird. I think the the
speaker-0: I could slip a word.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: The biggest thing they're gonna be missing now is that kind of aura of invincibility and of dominance that they had over everyone. Like they they had that same quality that like old school fanatic, old school nip, old school ⁓ Astralis had for a while where it was just like to some level they stepped into the server like eighty percent of the time having already won the series before the game went live. And now Vitality doesn't have that in any way. So it's gonna be way more competitive, way more brawly, I think, between all these teams, and it's not gonna be one of them just taking over the circuit.
speaker-0: Well, it would be sick though. Like, this is their opportunity. Like, I already kind of had them as like in my mind. I I'm more impressed than the Astralis run personally. ⁓ maybe that's because I'm a anti Astralis person with them beating up liquid the entire time and I just try to like shove that away. So maybe that's my bias. But like this run to me was always like their strength was always more impressive to me ⁓ with vitality than the Astralis one. But now the way I see this is like now that I've kind of seen you actually slip up. I feel like I've actually never seen a team turn the engine back on with the same five. Like without a roster change, without something changing. I'm not saying they will. I'm not saying but this is like the like to me, I'm just building this up in my head where if they can turn on the engine again and actually like win the next major and win like two more tournaments or like one more tournament in the second half of the year. That's like something I feel like is very that. I I'm trying to actually think, like maybe astrolists you can argue a little bit with like how their breaks, which is kinda it that one's just weirder in general because the circuit worked a lot different. Like the the like a lot different. So it's
speaker-1: That's where I was gonna go with this.
speaker-2: To an extent have already done it with this roster. Like this is a team that still made playoff the two tournaments that were disappointing is Cologne major playoffs where they lost to the eventual winners of the event, Atlanta where they didn't practice. But last year, you know, this same situation, they got they got beat by Mals during Cologne. Like th they dropped off, then they came back, they got an EPL when they went on to win the second major of the year. So I feel like there was a point al already last year, around this time of year at the end of the first season going into the start of the next, where vitality actually dropped off and they managed to get it back online again. And I think I think they just I I think they'll look back in the performance review and see the ramp up to the major needs to be a little different. Cause I think the we heard the performance coach was talking about if they didn't win Rio, they were gonna they wouldn't have taken the break going into the major, they would have kept up the practice, right? ⁓ but I think the fact they win Rio might actually have been a bad thing long term 'cause ⁓ the end up going on that break and losing the momentum.
speaker-0: no, I won an extra million dollars on it.
speaker-2: No, but imagine they don't win Rio, they win it in Cologne. How much better would that be? You want a major and a grand slam? That'd be so much cooler.
speaker-1: Liquid's the only team allowed to do that. I think we're gonna keep that one. Yeah.
speaker-2: ⁓ but th one of the sad things was like G two played so well ⁓ so it was so impressive but there's a couple of things that have gone wrong for G two. The decision making and switching out Wrinkle is coming in instead of some pies and also overpass just got removed from the pool. So they've just lost their best map as well. So I don't really know how to feel about G two. I was so positive coming out of the major and now I feel kind of meh.
speaker-1: G two's gonna be fine, boys. Everybody relax.
speaker-0: Do you think it do you think it moves the needle like in any pot? Like like just individually speaking, is like is really
speaker-1: I'll be honest with you. I'll I'll be honest with you. At the at the moment, just based off the announcement, this feels more like a lateral move than anything. Yeah. But I mean, I guess at this point, if you're making this move, you're putting faith in what your coach and your IGL have seen and discussed and decided they want to bring into the team and what what benefits he has and what things he can do and how they want to utilize him. And at least for me, I think Saul's one of the more underrated coaches. I probably think he doesn't get enough credit, you know, that we talk about part of that is because hasn't lifted enough trophies to like be matching Blade and or like he really be in that conversation. But I think, you know, his work on ends, his work in heroic, I think he's a really smart, really good coach. So I I'm just gonna put faith in that he's seen something here. And you have to remember too, like I Sampaio, while I think he's I don't want to say scapegoated, I think he's being treated probably a little bit too harshly. ⁓ yes for for his for his performance. Over the past few months. Yeah, yeah, they do. And that seems a little bit un that seems actually extremely unreasonable. But I think, you know, the angle with this is also you're bringing in a younger guy, twenty one years old, who hasn't had a lot of experience, who's still kind of moldable and who has shown a a level of potential that that made him interesting for for NIP to keep him in the roster for for two years, you know what mean? And while it hasn't panned out in that way, I think we can all agree that NIP as an organization meant to activate activate players and improve them hasn't exactly got the best track record. So no
speaker-2: Every
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: When Broland left that team, everyone was like, ⁓ fuck, this guy's a revelation. Where did he come from? So let's give Rinkle a little bit of a chance to have his little moment.
speaker-0: NIP is Swedish liquid Swedish liquid, man. Telling you right now, 100%. So you're you're probably right actually. I actually did hear a rumor that they were that Liquid was going for Wrinkle. I did hear that rumor. I thought that that was actually well, I was very surprised to see that Wrinkle was going to G two today because I heard the rumor that he was supposed to be going to Liquid, so I'm curious how that one went down. I don't my I don't know if that was for sure, but like you know how these roster moves go, everybody's in like a little bit of a bidding war, and then last second it's up to the players.
speaker-1: right around the major when every team is a little bit more open to ideas while they kinda figure out how they want to gear the next season.
speaker-2: I think the the some pies angle, my my take on it is some payas has already peaked. Like I don't think he's ever gonna get back to the Oprah he was when he broke out at the end of CSGO and the Ents team out of Movistar riders into Ents. I don't he was better in heroic ⁓ at the start of CS two for little glimpses and the Falcons team yeah, he got better towards his end of his tenure there, but he was never quite at the level at the end of CSGO. So I think we're not never going to see some paias ever get back to that. level again and in that sense G2 know what you're getting and it's not enough. And the thing everybody says about Simpius is he's always in the right position. He makes the right decisions. He just overthinks and doesn't always hit the shots he needs, right? Whereas the thing Rinkle from watching him, he's usually not in the right positions and he can hit some great shots. So like you've got the opposite situation. And I think he can be coached into that. Like if you can somehow coach him like dude stop playing this shitty spot. Like play this. This is the decision you should make. But you see the mechanics he's got, he's like definitely like a diamond in the rough. And I think obviously if Team Liquor are going for him, if th and and you know, G2 have got him into the team, you have to go with back to what Jason was saying that Saw's such a great coach. One of the things we talk about him in his past is like he's been able to scout players really well. ⁓ so I think hopefully what he's seen of Wrinkle is that yo, we've got so much raw talent here if we can just kind of harness it and put it in a system and teach him how to play properly. I think that you can see the upswing. So right now, yes, a lateral move, but I think definitely gonna be an upswing.
speaker-0: Yeah, they're gambling on its potential for sure. I mean, that's it. Like you're just hoping that you can get those peaks a little bit more frequently and actually give your team a little bit of an X factor in games like maybe the Spirit Game or something like that, where Sympaeus, I think, always provided a level of comfort, especially. That's why I think it worked really well with Saw, where Saw knows exactly how Sympaus wants to play, vice versa. They kind of know That's gonna be like the interesting part is like now that Saw doesn't have the offer that he's notoriously works with quite a bit, and he has like nerds again. He has play he's always had like one or two pieces that I feel like are very familiar with him in his teams, ⁓ that have jumped around with him. So it'll be interesting to me that like does like cause Wrinkle plays very differently. Not even just I mean, you mentioned like the game sense, ⁓ but like just in general, the decision making and the angles and how he likes to play is very different. ⁓ I I'm curious to see if like that. increases the overall level of G two and if Saw can basically just make him a more consistent opera and have occasionally more pop offs and that can make G two an actual contender with the Vitality Spirit Falcons conversation, which they are currently sitting on the outside of where they know that they just right now on their best days, they probably can't run with those teams with some pious in the roster.
speaker-2: I think another thing that I'll reveal as well, I was talking to a few people that when the move was going through of Sampaius and Saw joining G two, is G two didn't want both pla like both of them. They really only wanted Saw. Saw was a priority. But heroic were trying to sell off both players because Sampaias' salary was higher than the kind of business disruption they wanna
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Exactly. So they like Take ⁓ both ⁓ baby. You know, that that's it. We we don't really want this expensive sniper lying around without the coach to get the most out of him. So in G two sense it probably felt like okay, well, we're gonna take some Pires into the team and we've got him for a while. It he's a serviceable auper, but now the time has come we need an upgrade. ⁓
speaker-1: I mean, he hit the team like he was about here for a year. That's pretty legit for a player that kinda came in and they probably had some opportunities to to let him go at at different points. So I think he actually played himself well enough to stay in there for a year. I think he'd still be a benefit for like a like I don't know, a team like around like the fifteenth place mark that and you could still see if he's got some room and some growth to improve back to where he was. Well, let's calm down.
speaker-0: Not anymore. probably not. I don't know. I don't think I don't think he's gonna do it.
speaker-1: ⁓ he's feeling frisky.
speaker-0: Nah, dude. I don't know. What do you think? Do you like ⁓ the liquid roster in general? Yeah, let's just dive into it. Whatever the clusterfuck that this is gonna be. You like ⁓ you like JT there? We'll just start there. We'll we'll start with what we probably know is gonna happen or should happen. I don't think that's official yet, but it's the rumor and I'll just it should be happening.
speaker-1: What's the liquid roster we're talking about right now? Yeah, the rumor I saw I
speaker-2: Package Dale himself at the moment, is what the rumors are getting.
speaker-0: Yeah, the rumor that he's trying to bring T C with him as well, instead of having Flashy, which I don't have any animosity or anything towards Flashy. I'm kind of just indifferent. ⁓ so if he wants to But I actually don't like T C with JT anymore. That's actually my issue. The issue that I have with Go ahead.
speaker-1: Maybe I I was gonna say maybe well I was just maybe T C can handle the the macro and Flash C can handle the micro, get a whole spirit thing going on. I was just gonna tell a joke, that's why I interrupted you go on.
speaker-0: No, that's fine. I'm patch. But ⁓ you know, I I'm tired of seeing JT and T C because they they do really well together and I think they have a lot of things that they do really well each time, and I think every single time I feel the same way about their teams that I feel about Liquid right now, which I don't want to see happening again. Get a fucking vibes guy in this fucking team or I will lose my goddamn mind. I have nothing but the utmost respect for JT's IGLing ability. Him as a leader of men is not up to snuff. I think his calling is good. I think that from whatever thing I can see as an armchair analyst that has never been in the team, Liquid always looks like a fucking dead on a rival team when they show up. They look like absolute fucking zombies. They lose a pistol round. I watch everybody go inside of themselves, and nobody's there to actually tell them you're not bad at the fucking game. You can still play. It's just three nothing. Like, just go fucking play. And I think JT is a really good caller. But I don't think he's the right guy to get those situations away like away from the team. And I've seen T C and JT outside of Liquid and with NA players run into very similar things. So that I don't like I didn't like how passion looked in some of these games when they would start slow. Like they just kind of looked like they lacked like a little bit of let's get this thing going a little bit. And I I just would like to see a different coach in there. I don't know. I'm not saying go get Taz for your vibes guy necessarily, but I like either somebody in the roster or somebody as a coach. I just wanna see somebody fucking happy to be there. And JT is No, stop. He just that's all he's got is a goddamn smile and JT just looks like he ⁓ he's just ⁓ goddamn it man. So no I don't
speaker-2: He's always got smile on his face.
speaker-1: I'm with you. I mean I no, I I I think it's a fair point 'cause it's not just that, it's it's then it's JT, T C Alige, NAF. you know, you have you have no one down the line at all who's who's involved in any of that. Yeah. So I mean it's a fair point when you look at the whole team as like men is like all really passive, really chill personalities without a whole lot of entry energy. Like you can't you just can't do that. Like I don't know if you know we're sitting down playing video games, but you can't do that.
speaker-2: If you're liquid though and you're the joker Steve, you're just sitting there and you're like, All right, obviously we need to get a ⁓ a change here. We're gonna get JT as the IGL. Finally we're gonna get rid of that coach IGL conflict where, you know, they don't see the game the same way. I want my coach or I'm not gonna be happy. Immediately. The first same problem. It's it's the same situation with Team Liquid instantly. Do you wanna do that? Like, do you wanna immediately start where your your IGL is coming in? He's like, By the way, I didn't even really want you around. Like that's a that's a bad start on day one.
speaker-1: I also I also don't know I d I d I mean I don't really have any strong opinion on the flashy situation either. Like I don't I don't think he's necessarily done a bad job. I don't think he's necessarily done a great job. I don't really know where the problems lie within the team and why they haven't been able to Well, I kinda do, but I think I think like you can now that I say that now that I say that out loud, I do kinda know.
speaker-0: I mean there's a few.
speaker-2: Thank you.
speaker-1: For me, I for me, I look at that situation and even just away from like the personality and like the energy energetic black hole that that team would become, I I do think on some level you have to say, and and I'm with you, without any kind of personal hatred or dislike of either of them, I think we've kind of seen what that combination of coach IGL can do. We've seen the limits of it, we've seen the ceiling of it, we've seen where it can take you. ⁓ and I think, you know, it it's it's you know, you can argue maybe they didn't have the the kind of talent that they might have on this rust or in those other teams, but I still don't think You know, if if your biggest success was like that one month period in the transition into CS2 where complexity made it to a final, like, you know, that's there's there's not there. There's not a lot there to like hang my hat on. Yeah. Yeah. So I if I'm if I'm liquid, I'm like, no, you can you can go somewhere else if that's a condition, but we have flashy and we want flashy. But this gets to the next issue, which is, you know, all of a sudden if that's if that's true, I don't know if the I'm just operating on the assumption that this whole thing is true, that it wants TC is
speaker-0: Yeah, that's fun.
speaker-1: I think this was part of the issue between between of the last roster where Flashy and and Sue likely didn't see eye to eye. So I think if you're liquid, you almost have to say like you have to give Flashy the the kind of belief that he's gonna f he needs to find an IGL that he can work with too. And if already you're gonna bring in a new IGL who's like I want my coach, you already have a barrier right there out of the gate. Yeah, which is which is like kind of fun.
speaker-2: Such bad start for day one of the team.
speaker-0: Yeah, I do think that there's a lot of like ⁓ benefit too that's all allegedly power. ⁓ we're a podcast, it's vibes. Who cares? Don't calm down, Moses. No, it's vibes. Okay. ⁓ see that's how you just like we're we're we're we're vibes based podcasts here. We don't fact check anything and like this is all just vibes. But no, I'm tired of watching Liquid and feeling like they personify how I feel about North American Counter Strike while I'm watching the game.
speaker-1: I'm just making sure I just want the people.
speaker-0: I that is like like I don't just mean like they play bad. I mean like literally I'm watching a team that I feel like doesn't believe that they can win and then I also am watching them. I don't think we can lose. I don't that but that's literally what they look like, man. That's what all these North American teams look like. Is like as soon as they lose a round, they're just like, ⁓ yeah, we're an NACS team. We're just gonna lose this one. Like and fucking big NRG don't even get me started. Like these guys just believed it three rounds in. Like they a hundred per like that's what this shit is actually like a plague in our scene. Like it they they they genuinely believe what is said about them now to the point where it's a self fulfilling prophecy. In all of these fucking teams. This is why we this is why when you ask me at the start of this goddamn podcast, how do I feel? I feel like that's fucking unk goddamn roster could still beat some of these teams because they're delusional enough to believe it themselves, where these other rosters aren't. They're like way too pragmatic. They actually are way too realistic, and none of them have a goddamn ego. Like, name one player, North American Counter-Strike, that actually believes they could beat anyone in the top five.
speaker-1: It's probably somewhat in like ESEA Premiere, if that still exists.
speaker-0: Like these guys wake up and if I go to ⁓ eighty ⁓
speaker-1: I'll you a secret. I'll tell you a secret. If I came back right now, I could probably get on a North American team and qualify to a major series. ⁓ If I came back right now applied myself to I'd I'd be at a fucking
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-2: Okay.
speaker-0: That's the level of delusion we need.
speaker-2: That's what we need.
speaker-0: No, and I believe Moses because he believes it. But these players don't believe it. Like, I don't know. They're all just here and they're just like waiting to be the punching bag. Like Grim is literally putting fucking masks on to like it, but like it's like maybe it's kind of true. Like it's like maybe this is where we're at, dude. This is actually all just true. It's not a bit. And so ⁓ to make this back about liquid again, I need somebody in that fucking team that thinks they can actually beat people.
speaker-2: But the the thing about liquid is they just break your soul when you're there. Like they had they had your kind on the
speaker-0: Do better than everyone and that yeah, but like who did it? Like what what is causing it? Besides the but is it is it the players doing something evil or is it the self-belief that I'm telling you? Like like the the NA players have like actually I think internalized what the community has said about them. I I truly am starting to get to this point where they actually just well, I I feel like I have to say it out loud where somebody can just fucking hear this and like, ⁓ yeah, like
speaker-1: So made
speaker-0: No, bro, you can actually just go play really well counter-strike, like good counter-strike on your best day, and you can beat some of these teams. I have watched Xaiwoo miss three op shots at fucking party because he's off his game. You can go shoot him when he does that. Like I promise you, you can do it. You don't need to freak out. There's you might not be the best team in the world. You might not beat them every single time. But if you don't have the delusion to think that you can beat them on your best day, you shouldn't be in the server. And Nobody on Liquid's roster right now has that instinct. Alige lost it when he went from probably the 17th time of going back between Liquid and FaZe, and nobody else on that roster had it. Nav's just happy to be along for the ride. Like JT doesn't think he could do it. He just wants to have his comfortable old coach again. And literally, there's no answer in that fucking team that tells me. Yeah, we're gonna go win and be a top five team again. So until they've signed somebody in that roster that I feel like is delusional enough to believe that, that's where I'm at with this liquid team. I don't believe in them still because they don't believe in themselves. Like they don't. They they lost before they entered the server. Sorry. I just got that all off my chest.
speaker-1: Dude, all I all I all I took from that rant is that you want Stewie 2K to rejoin this roster and bring some fucking vibe back. Just get him back. Put him in the jersey.
speaker-0: Well bro, like what are we gonna do? Are we gonna play worse at this point, Moses? Are we gonna like like ⁓
speaker-1: Exactly. Face face on every alienware PC out there and party rock and roll.
speaker-0: Yeah, fuck it. Get the get the tunes going for for Moses. We'll get Moses will be we'll get Moses back on Ross. Moses will coach the team. Fuck it. Get Flashy out of here. Get Suey calling and I want Moses.
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: No, I want I want Yanko to coach this team.
speaker-0: Holy shit. Yankee killed him. I said delusional people that think NA can win, not the one guy.
speaker-2: Now that that would be a play. you mentioned the like lack of belief in themselves, but it's the lack of belief in your teammates as well, is the big problem for Team Liquid. Like if you're you've got nothing to believe in, like you have no faith in the people sitting next to you that they're gonna be able to make the right decision, do the right thing. Like when I I was watching this little bridge, ⁓ so you on the stage w one, two and three stage on the A stream, they had these set ups on
speaker-1: Yanko can do it.
speaker-2: The little hill and then there would like be a bridge you could walk across to get to the casting area. And Team Liquid had just lost their second series, about to get knocked out. And as they got up, I just looked that that wasn't a team. Like when you look down at how they're all getting up and leaving their PCs, it's not a team. And I I I just thought to myself, there is no way that I can even imagine those people going into a room at the hotel into the Prack Room and rallying together, getting on the same level and being a team and coming back out to challenge for the final game to run.
speaker-0: It is right, Dinko. They're coworkers. They're all just coworkers. They're all they're all clocked in. They're clocked in for the day. And this is their job. And that is what they do. And that is like I said, ⁓ they've lost ⁓ to me, I and I don't think they mean to do it. I just think that they've lost I think and it's not just liquid, like like I said, I feel like I'm bullying liquid, but I just want to reiterate I feel like this is everyone on the North American teams. I I feel like a lot of them and they're not trying to paycheck steal. Like I don't think that I I think they're actually they think they're invested. Like they think they're doing it. They think like they're doing what they're supposed to do, but they're not like they they've just lost it. Like they they they've literally believed what people have said about them to the point where they're not delusional anymore. And you if you don't have a little bit of delusion, there there's just no way that like they're ever gonna get out of the the rut until you bring another person in there that shakes it all loose. You need the Fuck it. Give me like I mean, like a good example of this would be simple. Like, I mean, like simple is a prime example of somebody that, you know, Kerrigan previously just talked about him being in the team and you know, people calling him toxic and how really he was just saying what Kerrigan would say. He just wouldn't even let it slide for a second. Like he wouldn't he wouldn't bring it up after the end of the round. He'd say, in the middle of the round, what the fuck are we doing? Like, what are you doing? Are you like actually playing this game to win or are you just fucking like just fucking around? And I I just need that, bro. I need somebody that is just gonna actually get in there, be s delusional, fucking flame somebody, tell ⁓ you're just being a fucking weenie. Stop clocking in and just go for it. But I don't even know.
speaker-2: I like that too. And and maybe we don't have to even ⁓ the thing about Liquid that annoys me is I don't think this organization gets the respect that it should, right? Like as an org. I think a lot of like these big team, like these big players who have done a lot of in Counter Strike, they kinda look at it as a almost like a retirement home. Like you can go there and get a nice stable paycheck and you can have all these sick facilities. You can have great branding, great organization. All of those things should
speaker-1: Wheeny.
speaker-2: help you become one of the best counter strike teams in the world. And I would like Liquid as an organization to get a little bit more respect out there in the Counter Strike world. Like I wouldn't want I want them to find an a new young hungry team that's coming up and actually like not not keep recycling these names we know that are out there in the world that have done great things in rosters but we know they're past their best. I think Team Liquid should be an organization like Falcons, ⁓ who are like they obviously not gonna have as much disposable income, but you're throw you're finding the next gem, finding the next player coming up and having a long term project you're moving forward with. And I think something Team Liquid do is they're a bit too nice. I think NAFT's been past his best for a long time. I think great, you've done an amazing job over the last few years with Team Liquid. You did an amazing time with the Grand Slam, but dude, this is a competitive team and you're not good enough anymore. Get rid of get rid of him, get rid of a liege and move towards like a new dawn for Team Liquid. I think they're an organization
speaker-1: Full gut of the
speaker-2: Dude, they they like if VRS wasn't a thing, like you could just restart the thing up. But right now you have to be kind of smart about it. And I honestly don't think there's like much positive ⁓ vibes over in Liquid ⁓ in terms of anybody. Like there's only ⁓ I I don't even know who would keep
speaker-1: I mean, if you wanna talk realistically, I think with the move you're gonna your move that I I would lean towards in their situation is because of the VRS you have to keep a core. So you're gonna look to remove Shuhei and the report is JT coming in at the moment, and then the other one you're gonna look to remove is ultimate. You're gonna want an opera coming in. If I'm an A you have that you have that kind of America's ⁓ you'd you'd wanna keep the America's core. I don't know who they're looking at at that point.
speaker-0: Try with those three. Try.
speaker-1: Right, yeah, yeah, the j they have the core no matter what. Try is like a name that I've heard has been on the list from from Passion as well. So maybe if that's the route you wanna go, but I don't think you have to be married to anything in those other twos. Well th there's I mean, there's not much you can do at the moment. We don't have enough star
speaker-2: Get a shitty team for another season, ⁓ pay them nothing. And then
speaker-1: The last time they did that they got blasted out of the water. You want ⁓ to go for it again? People still talking about the Rain Waker roster. Yeah.
speaker-2: Well look at
speaker-0: But that's like why didn't you just do that with an A? You're just gonna shoot the shit. Just go with it with an A. Like that's cut that's the beef that people have at that roster. It's not the it's not that they went with no names, Jason. It's that they went with no names and moved regions like to just like give you a giant middle finger.
speaker-2: I think Alex C P
speaker-1: How is that a middle figure?
speaker-0: But bro, they're the NA talisman team. What do you mean? Why is that the middle finger? You literally know that the entire North American Counter-Strike scene supports you, and you are basically with C9 gone, the reigning team, and you fucking dropped a liege to get Rain Waker. I don't care what situation happened behind the scenes. I'm aware that there's more to it than that. Like, I'm not like I know more than I should. That doesn't matter. Like, that is what you did, though. Like, that is publicly what. What you did. You fucking gave the middle finger to the NAC. How it happened and how it all went down doesn't matter. That's your fucking job, right? That's not my job. That's not our job here. That's their job. So you can't also then be like, well, they did that with another team when they gave people a shot. Sure. Okay. Yeah. They gave Rain Waker and Apaze, who had like a nice run at a major one time, a shot so they could go EU and then no longer have their most popular player leave the fucking team and then they can switch regions. Yeah, great job guys. Yeah, whoever thought that one up in the fucking room was like, yeah, this is it.
speaker-1: Okay. You've taken that to a direction I didn't really expect. I'm not gonna lie to you there.
speaker-0: Yeah, sorry, I get I get into this bro. I I unfortunately I feel like I'm the only one around here that actually is invested. I think I'm more invested in the player
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: I mean I'm I I I just didn't take that from Liquid as like a personal I didn't take that as like a middle finger. But you know, I I operate on the orc side of things more often than not and I'm not super involved in the NA scene, so I can understand how that person
speaker-0: represent the entirety of the NA scene, so I will not say it does, but I feel like a very large portion of the North American Counter Strike scene when that moment happened, that felt like a giant middle finger. Then they stayed a year. Then they came back to NA and only came back to NA so they could get in the fucking major.
speaker-2: I don't think anybody's
speaker-1: the don't I don't think that's a fair painting of that situation.
speaker-2: It's definitely what it was.
speaker-0: What the what they weren't gonna make the major, Jason, if they
speaker-1: Well I think I think I don't think that was the reason for the trade. I think the trade came to them and that was a fucking cherry on top. I don't think they said let's make a trade to get into the major. And there's there's that's an important distinction to make.
speaker-0: Well if you know It is, but nobody ever made it publicly, so that's not how it looks, Jason. If you want to make would you turn down that Sunday?
speaker-1: Would you turn down this Sunday with that chariot? Sunday and I would never second guess it. I'd pour some sprinkles, some rainbow sprinkles, and a little bit of caramel sauce, maybe some heated up butterscotch, and I'd have a fucking delicious
speaker-0: Why not just hammer it home and just say that's what happened? Like even or just hint at it. What is the downside to even doing that?
speaker-2: Yeah, I don't know why.
speaker-0: Right, if that is actually what happened, you just actually just missed an opportunity to tell people like this was presented to us and we decided to make a trade with G two. Like they could literally just even silver line it like that. Like
speaker-1: I don't even think that that would have significantly changed the conversation. I think people had way too much fun with the memes.
speaker-0: ⁓ for sure. But like at least at that point you've said how it went down a little bit. Like it could at least like like then people when they have real conversations about it can know. Like myself, like I I wouldn't have guessed that. Like I would not because I I'm not there to like sit there and I'll punch down for a little bit, but like not all the time. And then after I'm done with it, I wanna know how it went down. And yeah, outside looking in, yeah, it just looked like they made a trade to get in the radio.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. A hundred percent.
speaker-2: ⁓ the thing about Locke as well, they I think they lost all the
speaker-0: Sorry, my bad.
speaker-1: I like it. I'm into it. Let's get to fight about today. Do I have something I'm angry?
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ you give me time.
speaker-2: So think about Liquid is my final point is they always seem to they lost all the the right players. Like they lost all the players they should have kept and kept all the ones they should have gotten rid of. Like you had nerds on your team, you had your Kendo on your team, you had twists on your team. All those players left and you kept NAF and you got a leash back. I think they just kept all the wrong players. And then also obviously those players wanted to leave, wanted to go elsewhere. That's definitely something, but you didn't create the environment that to entice them to stay. I think that's a problem. And then the other thing is for Team Liquid, I I think do you think Navi are gonna keep Alexey B for a long time? Like I eventually I think they're gonna get rid of him. With if they if Navi don't pick it up this season, I think there's a really good chance Alexi B gets kicked from that team. And I think he would be a good idea for Team Liquid down the line. Like I think if you you gotta like look at the landscape, I think that would be something that could happen.
speaker-1: I think ⁓ I don't I doubt Alexi I I can't imagine Alexi would be interested in coming to like a rebuilding project. If like there's some progress made, maybe the project gets a little bit better, but I think he'll have better offers than than coming to rebuild anything.
speaker-0: He's rebuilt his entire image. Like w it shouldn't have been that that down to begin with, but like I'm just saying i if he gets whenever the day comes that Alexey's no longer a Navi, I'd be very surprised if he's not immediately picked up in like some top twenty team that's like truly in a position to make a jump or be competitive. But they're not. They're not. That's their fault. Like like that's that's the situation they've created themselves. And
speaker-2: Should be a top twenty team. Like
speaker-1: Well that's my point.
speaker-2: Well, we just live in this limbo forever or do we actually come up with a great plan and set up a deal and make it enticing for the world's best talent to come back to Team Liquid? 'Cause I if if that doesn't happen then what are we even doing? Like then
speaker-0: You're talking about liquid and we're but real remember we're talking about the forty first best team in the world right now. That that is liquid. And liquid and this is
speaker-1: It's well I've twenty five at the moment, but I might be using eight.
speaker-0: HL TV, HL TV, buddy. Yeah, and HL TV holds on to the discord like a motherfucker.
speaker-2: Damn good thing there in the Americas qualification process.
speaker-1: It's rough. but I don't know what I was gonna say next. I lost it already. it's not that they're not trying. It's not that they're not trying. It just it just takes time. But I mean I like I yeah, I don't know. It's not it's not an easy it's not an easy thing to do. And I and I think like I think sometimes what see what equally gets me mad ⁓ in this conversation about Team Liquid is the other side of the angle where it's like
speaker-0: Well I'll go ahead
speaker-1: This team has swung for the fences quite a bit and none of them have panned out and that deserves its it's like that deserves its criticism and its critiques. But let's not act like this team hasn't tried to put together some really fucking cool rosters and gone out and gotten really good players right after they've been you know, like they've they've made some swings and they haven't panned out at all the way they would have liked any of them to be fair.
speaker-0: Kinder one was the best swing and it was and it was decent for a moment.
speaker-1: They're fucking swigging. Well
speaker-2: You know, it the VRS system makes everything difficult to rebuild and a chance for North American teams to get some very much needed VRS points is by going to Flawm Land two coming up ⁓ a little bit later on the year.
speaker-0: Segwing for me for my own event. This is insane. Yeah, you're definitely getting rehired, buddy. You're doing great. Yeah. No, I mean yeah, they're I mean they're definitely gonna be there. We're the only thing right now for my land event that we're considering or like wondering is which South American teams will be there because ⁓ right now the answer is pain. It should be pain and it should be ⁓ IBR, but ⁓ the realistic
speaker-2: Hell yeah.
speaker-1: Wait.
speaker-0: situation is is they might have so much VRS that they might both decline. Because they have so much more VRS than ⁓ eighty, then energy, then Liquid, than Voka, that if they basically don't win if they don't win the event, there's a chance that but I don't know because there's strategy to this as well where like they might have previous events falling off. So I don't we don't really know. But the the invites will be going to ⁓ IBR in pain unless something I'm not accounting for happens, which is pretty rare. It's most likely we'll have like a bestia and like a sharks at the event. Sharks would be cool. Yeah. So it'd be cool. I mean, honestly, I'd love to see ⁓ IBR, just selfishly, because I'd love to see Insanity play on land, ⁓ versus North American teams and I do not sorry, hold on one sec.
speaker-1: Do you have a wild card invite?
speaker-2: Well th this Jason, how much of a tease was it this week in the news that Insani could potentially be free from MIPR? Like that was gonna happen. Like he was about to be set free, but he ⁓ seemed to have declined the offer from Legacy. ⁓ and hasn't gone to that organization. But I'd I'd like if if Insani leaves MIBR, send him to a really good team. Send him to Liquid. Send send send him to Liquid. Insani to Liquid, that's a great
speaker-0: Bro, how delusion ⁓ dude I love how Diko is actually so far more delusional about like how like Diko tells us how people don't view Liquid in a positive way anymore, but then simultaneously is like, Yeah, he's gonna and Sani and Sani's holding out not going to legacy right now, so he can go to Liquid
speaker-2: He would love that. I like that. I'd tell him I he wanted it.
speaker-1: You wanted you wanted the delusions. You wanted you wanted the hands.
speaker-2: T C and Flashy is the micro macro coach combo and Sonny and ⁓ you throw in a little some pious
speaker-0: We're so fucked. We're so fucked, man. I don't know. Okay. But for yeah, for the land of it, that should I mean so I mean for the NA side we should have a good like little lineup. But because everybody sucks so much, nobody can decline. So it'll be ⁓ eighty, it'll be wildcard, liquid, energy, voca, and then probably the like a team function Cooper Marsh run. Yeah, more more fans sold out VIP in fifty two seconds. I might actually break even this time. Moses, I'm having your day right.
speaker-1: ⁓ w what, excuse me?
speaker-0: ⁓ well I had to we looked at the budget and for some reason Moses took up like half the budget last time so yeah that's a good aggressively. Yeah, no, no. But no the ⁓ yeah, it's sold out in like VIP is like ⁓ yeah, yeah
speaker-1: So on that original right there, right?
speaker-2: Exposure's really good today, man.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, it should it should be good. Everybody more people. I'm seeing if I can do one day, but I just I think if I do one day tickets, ⁓ first world problems, we might have a fire hazard. So I don't know if we can sure ⁓ we'll see. I think Friday we might try to do one day tickets because like Friday we're gonna be starting earlier. Now the schedule, I don't know if you guys have had a chance to look at it. I haven't officially announced it yet, but if they'll listen to the podcast, you guys will be there. Like I don't care, it's fine.
speaker-1: Hey, we're gonna be there. ⁓
speaker-0: Happy to be in my Yeah, Dick Covoses will be on the couch again, keeping me company. But ⁓ no, I I mean I think like ⁓ yeah, it's it's gonna be fucking slammed. So the the schedule is is Friday actually starts at ten AM. So it'll be kind of like the Saturday day. Remember the the really long Saturday? So but it actually builds nicely. So Saturday will end with like the semifinals and then we have a show match, a third place decider, and then a final. The players requested a third place decider because it gives more VRS. For the teams and obviously this being a tier two event, wanna help build yep VRS as much as we can, so it helps. And then show match. I haven't officially announced it yet, but most people know that it'll probably be me with like I don't know if you guys followed the Ludwig land much, but my it'll basically be my team from the Ludwig Land, the Flommely. And then no, that'd be insane. That'd actually be insane. That's pretty cool. No. Okay, well played. Well played. No. I was thinking about the we have a bunch of other streamers that will be there, so I might recruit them and throw them on the other side. Nothing official yet though, but that's the idea. But yeah, so it should build nicely, is my point. And then Friday, since it starts so early, I don't know how many people are gonna be there at 10 a.m. on the Friday, and instead of just like Catching their flight, getting in there later, you know, enjoying their not burning up
speaker-2: Vegas. The ten a.m. is like eleven PM. It's the same time. Everyone's gonna turn out.
speaker-0: I think Friday is gonna be slow and Saturday everybody's gonna be hung over and Sunday is gonna be an absolute fucking zoo. I think that's what is gonna what's gonna happen. We'll see.
speaker-1: You had more you had more in person viewers at Flamland One than DreamHack Masters Las Vegas had.
speaker-0: I was there too and I'm well aware. But didn't okay, but actually Yeah, way back in the day, didn't didn't that like get moved? That's why it was so fucked up, right? Like wasn't there like didn't they have to last second move that event and that's why it ended up in Vegas and then they for they got the venue for free and then they put ⁓ center stage.
speaker-1: We're the one. We were the one in that I'm not sure I'm not sure how late in the day it got moved, but I've seemed to remember something, but maybe you just implanted that memory in my brain.
speaker-0: Maybe I did maybe I'll maybe I'll drop but I if I remember right the Vegas event never was total dog but I think like if I rem Boomer memory serves them right they had it planned somewhere else and then it like fucked up and then they had to pivot everything to Vegas. ⁓ don't remember. But yeah, like it yeah, you th we got a fair amount of spectators. It should be good. I I we sold out so much I'm genuinely considering if I have to like try to
speaker-1: Sounds like there's some familiarity. Very possible.
speaker-0: ⁓ to a bigger venue for the next one, but I don't really know what the cut up
speaker-1: Fifty seven seconds. ⁓ you should at least try and make it to a minute and a half. I think
speaker-2: That's my motto, Jason. It's ⁓ it's a good goal to set.
speaker-0: That's good. That's maybe next year. You'll catch up to me and Moses soon enough. That's about how it Baby steps. This guy is a professional. But ⁓ no, I I'm excited, bro. I'm excited. It should be really good. Hopefully, hopefully Liquid isn't at more of these events in the future, but I do think that the the unfortunate reality of NA being terrible
speaker-1: Segmental baby steps. Proud to have them here. I'd appreciate if they were never here again.
speaker-0: Yeah, like ⁓ like it's like a double edged sword. Like I'm I'm really happy that we're gonna actually have a stacked North American lineup at my land, but we're it's happening because of bad things. So
speaker-2: Speaking of, I think it's a good transition into this as well, because you're talking about the fact you can go to an event like this, ⁓ IPR would go to your Flawlands, you would, but they they risk losing a lot of VRS points. And that's exactly what happened to Gamer Legion, who went to the Draculan, like the Super One, and they came out last place. And it's like all that hard work making a final in Atlanta, and you just tank your VRS like you low losing points, losing momentum, losing confidence. Disastrous, really, for Gamer Legion. That zero three in stage three was terrible. ⁓ like just in general, not a not a good or stage two, sorry. It was just a a terrible look from Game of Legion, ⁓ at the major and now on continuing to have problems. ⁓ it's okay.
speaker-1: We'll always have Atlanta though. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: And that didn't really plan out for the RV either, did it?
speaker-1: It'll always it'll always be there. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. This game religion I'll be honest with you, it doesn't really it doesn't really get me excited in any way. To I mean this is that's yeah, it's been a gross look. I don't I haven't watched any of the games. They looked bad at the major in stage two, so here here we
speaker-2: No, it makes me sad.
speaker-0: I ⁓ I wasn't super hyped seeing this one on the list. I was like, Yeah, 'cause I just feel like we'll be dunking on ⁓ I think yeah, I think it's poo. I do yeah, but that is you're right. Like with VRS, that's like the double edged sword is if you're the big dog going to the tournament, it's like having the nicest house in the neighborhood, you know? You don't really always wanna have the most valuable house. You wanna have like, you know, you want you want somebody else to have Yeah, exactly, dude. They they th that way they raise your value up and you didn't have to spend all the money. Like
speaker-1: Fucking this turned into a real estate podcast real
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, dude, this is the UNC podcast. We can do shit like this here. Like the people here got crippling student debt and probably three mortgages and seven kids. Like ⁓
speaker-2: New property for you to buy. It's cash. It's in. It's in. Overpass out. So things get worse. They've lost now a great map for them as well. And like we got overpass out there. ⁓ how do you feel about that? 'Cause I see a lot of cool dialogue about like the tactical teams. Every team like picked it was winning it. ⁓ and it and it removes like a tactical element of the game for a very puggy map. Like should be
speaker-0: Holy forgetting I like this. I hate that it was overpass. Nah, I just hate that it was overpass. I really do. Like, I mean, I understand why, but if we're just gonna keep doing this thing where like because the player base doesn't play a difficult map that's completely unorthodox to what's it played in the rest of the pool, that genuinely is uncomfortable to learn. ⁓ you're never we're we're just gonna be stuck with these say like I'm sorry at this point, but like Cash, Mirage, Dust Two, Ancient are just like They're not the same. I'm not trying to like, but they're the same. Especially on a I'm not playing professional counter-strike level. Holy fuck, they're just the same. And I it like I'm happy that Cash is back, but I hate that we're basically just saying, well, people don't want to learn train because it's a hard map. And I I went on this rant previously because a lot of people asked me. And I feel like the problem is also tied to matchmaking and how we incentivize it into the point where Counter Strike used to be public servers and like you you used to like ESCA used to be you join a server and then you sit in there all day and you just ready and people join in and they could choose to join or not. And you'd be basically immersed with like, you know, the same people relatively throughout the day. And this built like more of a ⁓ you had to be a bit more invested in who you're playing with because there's a good chance that you'll just have them on your team again in the same game. And that happens to an extent in like certain speci like scenarios, but for the casual player base, you hop on, you play, you play by yourself, you go into a game and nobody knows a single fucking nade on the map, and you have no cohesion and you have no incentive to work together. And when you play a map like Train, or you play a map like Overpass, you play a map like Nuke, or even a map like Inferno, even though you've played it for a long period time, it's a very hard map to play. And it's very it's not fun or engaging in any sort of way. And What we've done now is like cash is accessible, Mirage is accessible, dust tier is accessible, like they're very simple maps that you can go through. And it's not that they can't be played on a high level, but when you are sitting there, not playing with others in any sort of team play aspect, they're the most accessible maps. And that's why people play them and they sti they stick to them because they're accessible and easy and not you're not rolling the the dice as much playing them. But then what ends up happening is we just have the same shit, man. Like we just we're we're just incentivizing the same types of games to be played each and every single time. And my my issue is is that matchmaking unfortunately has become such a seamless experience that you can just hop in and out of. ⁓ that you get people to play more, and you probably even get them to play more games and more counter strike throughout the day. But it really does just make playing these maps incredibly difficult. And then Valve sees, well, people don't play these maps as much. We should remove it and get people to play more balanced maps. But then we're just encouraging like one style of play, whether we realize it or not. We're almost borderline saying like run it down mid is kind of how this feels. And I don't know how to fix that. Like this is like a grander topic of like matchmaking as a whole and like these systems. And I understand why they exist and they've probably made the game incredibly popular because they exist, but it it just fucking sucks, man. 'Cause I want I want like I want to be able to play those maps, you know? And we can't right now. And my dogs agree.
speaker-2: They hate it.
speaker-1: That didn't sound like an a that didn't sound like an agreement. That sounded like a yeah, fuck overpass. Get it get it out of here. ⁓
speaker-0: Come on, man.
speaker-2: I think See the the point the point about like I feel like we're diluting Counter Strike. Like everything's becoming the same thing. over I'm not a big fan of Overpass, to be honest. I don't I don't really like watching it a huge amount. I think when T sides don't get going, it's like the most mind numbing map to be a part of, like whether you're casting or playing it, like just watching the C T side just destroy this like that Astralis game where they just on overpass did nothing on T side that was One of the worst looks. Obviously Astralis is problem, but for me, I'm happy to have overpass out of there, to be honest. But I would I have I enjoy the sentiment of like another tactical map needs to be out of the game. I want train to come back. I'm I'm I was shocked that train was put out of the pool that quickly. ⁓ I would love to see at least one of those still in the rotation.
speaker-1: Y'all are y'all are very doom and gloom. I I love this change. I'm so glad Overpass is gone. I'm so glad Cash is in. I'm ready to party. Like this is I I think like this is still gonna be a tactical map. I think it was still a very, very tactical map, you know, in in s in early CSGO before it was removed as well. Well think too with the skybox wide open now, the ability to throw fakes, how important mid control is. Like, yeah, there's some there's some philosophical, you know, similarities to some of the other maps, but there but there's always that kind of overlap. You know, there's some there's some strategic elements that go from map to map to map regardless. I thought overpass was significantly boring. I think Cash is just going to have like a it's like a I think there's you know, when it when it I'm I'm curious what's gonna happen when it comes back in because when it left the pool it was right when teams started getting really Much more active on having like aggressive CT game plans. Like that wasn't always a thing for CT sides. Playbooks and IGLs were mostly on like the T side. Nowadays, even your CT side has some crazy ass plays that you bust out. So that's where the map was headed when it got removed. I'm excited to see what's going to be added in when it comes back. And I think it's going to play really interesting. I think it's going to make some really cool clutch and retakeable bomb sites as well, which are always where the most intense moments do. So I think like yeah, you can lament overpass, it's always gonna be subjective based on if you like or or or don't like the map, which I I'm not a huge fan of obviously. ⁓ but I think no one's gonna be complaining when we see this cash get into the kind of counter strike that's being placed played these days.
speaker-0: Let me let me let me just say I like Cash is I like the map. I'm not I'm not like standard cash
speaker-1: This is when NA comes back.
speaker-0: I'm just saying it I I just like ⁓ to get like a little boomer and doom and gloom, like I just don't like the idea that yeah, we're we're just like removing tactical maps, it feels like w that actually have like unique personalities. And it's not that cash doesn't have its own personality or like its own feel to it, but th thank you.
speaker-1: Just say can I can I actually just say something? I and this ⁓ we don't need to have like a deep crazy conversation if you don't want to. I ⁓ yeah, we can. ⁓ I would push back. Like I actually feel like the this whole conversation around like these maps being like a tactical map is like the similar kind of conversation we had when everyone was like, Well, Sanji's an important support player. What are we talking about when it comes to I want I want Airvision
speaker-0: Like, do it. Give me train. ⁓
speaker-1: I watched ParaVision on Overpass win a game going to the B bomb site on T-side twelve times in a row. And then the next day I watched them do the exact same thing. Why how is that a tactical? If you could go to the same bomb site twenty-four rounds in a row and win two games, it is not a tactical map.
speaker-0: Alright, then remove Inferno because that's all we do at Banana. Inferno Inferno right now. Get it get the get Inferno out of here right fucking now because I swear to God that's how we just play every round. Alright? Like let's be honest. The entire We like there's a map that exists that's called Inferno, but one part of the map only matters.
speaker-1: Inferno's rough. The because when you play it in a pug, everyone's got ADD and everyone wants to run towards the big flashy lights, which is Molotovs and H E grenades and banana. Nobody wants to do the blue-collar work of taking over halls, controlling middle. Nobody wants to handle that shit. They just want to run straight into the action and be rampant.
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm not mostly because I'm trying to get the fuck out of the map. I'm like I'm trying to go kill two and get the fuck out of here. Yeah, if I die. Fuck it. Good job. No, like I don't know. It doesn't need to be overpassed though, is all I'm saying, Moses. Like I like I would I'm with Dinko, actually. I really like new train. ⁓ holy fuck, people just can't even I'm not but that's the other thing. Did you see ⁓ man, I wish I see this is where I wish I was like more of a stats guy, like that just had all these folders saved up. If I remember right.
speaker-1: Surprised when I got removed.
speaker-0: Like the numbers of like on train in terms of how much the casual player base played it, like if you just like looked it, even including face it, like you put face it and you put the premiere stats, like nobody fucking played that map. I mean like played train.
speaker-2: No one thing.
speaker-1: It requires way too much calms, way too much communication.
speaker-0: Well that's what I mean is like and so when you say like, you know, I'm not I do like overpass, so I'm not gonna like pretend that I don't just to like appease you. I do like the map. But it doesn't need to be overpass. It could have been like, yeah, like train or man, if we're ever gonna remove like what in the Holy Trinity, ⁓ a Mirage Dust to Inferno, Cash was like the only map that you're bringing in that was gonna be able to match their level of popularity where you could have done that. Like this is This is like to me one one of the few maps where you could have brought in cash and maybe you just sideline Inferno, right? And you actually try to make like a real change to the map. Or that's my own that's what I would like the most. But then even you could say the same for like Mirage. Mirage has not been touched in forever. I know it's it's honestly a good map. I don't have an issue with the map as a whole. I just have an issue that the map is not significantly changed. To the point where I feel like the rounds do feel a bit predictable. And I feel like a lot of the calling on T-side has got to the point where people are just in Vegas gambling. Like the calls are not necessarily built in something where they truly are building out rounds. There was a moment where I was starting to feel like that was being pushed against where Navi was building something like that. And I was like, okay, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's like an actual philosophical way you can consistently win T-side rounds on Mirage. But then as soon as this major rolled around, especially with the C T sides, it just If you played a basic round of Mirage, you got absolutely throttled. And people's response to that was more like all in I don't want to say gimmick, but timing plays. Like just like we're trying to create this one element of timing on this map right now on this T side to get an avenue in, and that's how we'll win the round. And that's all like the the round is to to be able to win. And I ⁓ yeah, so like if if Cash or or Dust Two Inferno were to come out, I just was a little disappointed that something wasn't Like one of those weren't removed for cash because Yeah, because if we bring in like what are you gonna do? You're gonna bring in train next and you're gonna remove Mirage? Yeah, that's gonna go well. Right. Like that's gonna totally play. Like that's not gonna work.
speaker-2: removing ancient because you mentioned like with this gambling side on the T side. Like I feel like the mid fight is such a gamble. Like I feel like I'm watching the same ancient game no matter who's playing it at the moment. ⁓ so I think Cash for Ancient might have been a decent move as well. ⁓ but I I I think moving forward we at some point need to have new maps being introduced because I love
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-2: when Anubis came in and and Ancient came in, like that was fun. Like and they've now become strong staples. I'd like a new map down the line as well. Like a a new one.
speaker-1: Boy. Let's all be careful what we wish for here. We're de we're venturing into dark territory.
speaker-2: Bring for the goodness.
speaker-0: One back.
speaker-1: Just saying, you venture into some dark territory.
speaker-0: Back the old vertigo patch, like the that last one where they I feel like they actually ran out of ideas, so they just said fuck it, we try everything all at once at
speaker-1: They removed they moved the wall and and added the passage wall up.
speaker-0: Yeah, that was absolute psychotic shit. They were just bored, I think, one day and just like simulator, but I still like the map. Like actually. I I didn't I didn't
speaker-2: I think
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, I I liked Vertigo. ⁓ the unpopular opinion. I actually am but not the latest version. I do want to say that. That last version was batshit insane. And that was super unfun to play. It wasn't fun to watch. It just felt like nobody knew what they were allowed to do and everything was just a a clusterfuck. ⁓ but no, I don't know. I'm dude, I'm down. I'm down for new maps. I know you say we opened a dark passage here. You're you're not wrong.
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-1: No, ⁓ it's gotta at some point. We've had this conversation a bunch and I I'm with you. I I don't mind ha I wouldn't mind having some kind of a system of a new map coming in, but it there is an element of once you go down that road, for every ancient that comes in that that seems to be accepted right out of the gate, there's gonna be three vertigos that take two years to get wrong. You know, like yeah Yeah. It's just ⁓ Counter Strike is a hard game to map for, and especially when we have high expectations of the competitive aspect, which
speaker-0: ⁓ Don't don't forget, like it did it took a while to get in. Remember there used to I mean
speaker-1: I don't know about a lot. Maybe Anubis is the one that came in for the most part unchanged for its first
speaker-0: Anubis didn't change at Like I think there was one change. It was the clipping issues on Anubis at the start. Ancient remember they're start. Yeah, they remember the the temple used to have two holes. You used to be able to opt temple into donuts. ⁓ yeah. And then also remember the boxes on cat? Yeah. I'm very proud of that one because I fucking flamed well I call him handsome dev, but I think you know the most talkative dev, I kept telling him delete the fucking boxes. I was like, this is a cluster fight. This is absolutely gross. Get rid of So I'm very
speaker-1: That's right.
speaker-0: And then one day he just sent me a screenshot of the boxes removed on the map. And then I was like, Yes, like let's go. Like so there there was some significant changes to Ancient before I think it got to the point where it is now. I s I still don't necessarily love the map, but Anubis actually came from the community where Ancient was made by Valve, if I remember correctly, on both of those. Yes.
speaker-2: Yeah, Luba's community map. It was very popular.
speaker-1: I think it was the map core, wasn't it?
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. ⁓ I don't know. I I we do need new maps. I've I do think there's a balancing that needs to be accounted for. And I know what you mean with like the Sanji thing, and you're just like basically saying, you know, you you go ahead and rant at a wall, old band, because like some of these maps aren't really tactical, they're just different and that doesn't necessarily mean they're good. And I think that's kind of the point you're getting to with like overpass is you you feel like it's unique but not necessarily in a good way, and that doesn't mean it's a good map just 'cause it's unique and I would
speaker-1: I think it's just too limiting in in too many ways in today's counter strike. So the the size of it is just insane.
speaker-0: It's it's massive, yeah. It's like old cobble. ⁓ and yeah, so I get it. I just yeah, I don't want everything to become run it down mid simulator because once players figure out how cash used to play, which is like you just everything runs through mid and somewhere or another. Nah, dude, they don't. Like face it players are fucking terrified of playing at North America. It's actually embarrassing that our region bans cash a single time and I never get to play it. I had somebody dodge it today. I was like, honestly, we should fucking we should revoke the
speaker-1: Generation.
speaker-0: Nah, we should reverse citizenship if they don't play cash, like at this point. Cause like that like we need a good that gets insane, bro. Like 'cause but no, like once they figured out that it all runs through mid, it's just gonna be like we're coin flipping mid on cash, we're coin flipping mid on ancient, we're coin flipping mirage mid, like we're coin flipping dust too on who wants to be stupid on the
speaker-1: What is
speaker-2: Bring back season.
speaker-0: Alright, I think that's a good place to end it. I think we end it here. I think that's it. And guys, this is your episode of the NQ podcast. CS Money, thank you for sponsoring this. This is me, Dinko, Moses. Source was absolutely great and Moses loved it. But yeah, I think we actually ended there. We leave it right there. No season talk. I'm actually cut it. Cut it, Sico. And the hit the end button.
