speaker-0: So this is another podcast where I'm gonna try to attempt to host another Counter Strike podcast that quite literally nobody asked for with Dinko and Moses. ⁓ I figured FML went so well, we just yapped for about twelve hours a day that why not just keep doing it? So we don't have a name, we don't have any branding, we're just gonna sit here and talk entirely way too much about Counter Strike. And maybe we'll pay a little bit of attention to the North American scene while we're at it. Just maybe.
speaker-1: I think just another podcast is pretty good. It's a is a really nice starting point for a title. I think we just get right into Just Another CS podcast. There's a lot of ⁓ now. We're we're entering territory. Yeah.
speaker-0: Another Counter Strike podcast. ⁓ so we'll get right into it though. So we'll ⁓ we'll rip right into it. I don't care how Jason's doing. Dinko's stuck in Jason's basement.
speaker-2: Yeah, he's locked me up in his basement. But at least I've got a microphone and
speaker-1: You guys make it sound a lot more weird than it has to sound. I'm just gonna throw
speaker-0: When we did the testing of like these little photos, I don't know if Chris has any of these saved. Dinko literally looks like he's trapped in your basement 'cause he didn't have a light on. He looked like he was grounded, like talk about
speaker-1: Well, I can't help it if the man wants to live in the darkness. I don't know what to do about that. There's there's six lights installed in that room. Actually I think there's eight lights in that room.
speaker-2: Yeah, I turned one of them on and it's pretty bright, so I'll take it. Also, yesterday in Michigan was sunny today. It's back to grey skies, Jason. We had one one good day.
speaker-1: Yep, just like Ireland.
speaker-0: Yeah. It might it might make a small appearance, so we could have fun with it anyway. Do you ⁓ would you like to share with the class about what's going on in the background, Jason?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-2: Okay. Started again.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I'm wearing noise cancelling headphones. I should turn that off. Yeah, I have a leak in my roof, so we have some guys here to repair it. I'm just surprised they're still here. You know? ⁓ that's it. So
speaker-0: Have you considered making Dinko like pay for your stay by just doing like handyman work in your house? Like make Dinko do it?
speaker-2: It would take way longer and there would be a lot more issues, but
speaker-1: With certain things I'd be fine with it, with him climbing onto my roof and taking out, you know, roofing portions. I d I don't know if I'm gonna give that one.
speaker-2: We could give it a go and we could maybe, you know, get a camera out there, Jason. That could be good content.
speaker-1: Perfect.
speaker-0: Perfect content. That's what we always everyone loves that. IRL stream it. Jason Moses O'Toole with the IRL Twitch stream of home improvement with Dinko just following around. That'd be that'd work.
speaker-1: It was a great T V show in the nineties, that's all I'm gonna say. ⁓ you know, I'm happy to follow up in that
speaker-2: I wasn't even around then, so
speaker-0: Fucking Christ. I always forget Dinko is not yeah, okay, that's right. Yeah, it's it's grandpa grandson casting. That's right. Grandpa Grandson
speaker-2: Yeah. Legit. Well, what have you been up to, Flaun since Flawm Line? We got to I think it's been pretty fun, like starting the year doing the Flom Line and then going out. I came in like so hyped about North American teams and I was like gassing them up to everybody, like actually no, they're gonna be sick this time. I actually feel good about NRG. And then Pearlie comes along like, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, maybe not. Maybe there's
speaker-2: Next next one. Next one they got it. But I think it's been cool. It's been a n it was a nice way to start the year, honestly. So
speaker-1: The OC supremacy hype to fall off at the start this year was was very shocking roller coaster to be on. That's one of those like streaming plummets. Not like shocking that it occurred, just like shocking in terms of the harshness of it. Wasn't shocking to me. Might have been shocking to other people.
speaker-0: What are you trying to say? You they're not shocking what you is this reminding of Coost all over again?
speaker-1: You can't believe that one's still around. But no no it doesn't not not quite coosa levels, but it it's like ⁓ I don't know. It was just like another it's like we've seen we've seen it all play out before. Maybe there is a little bit of cooster.
speaker-0: The the North American script of operas is what you're saying. Man, why you gotta say God w we're trying to be uplifting here. You just immediately brought it back down to reality. No, that you're fine. There's no nobody's taking out your roof right now. But No, it was it was fun. I mean, it obviously I'm biased. The event was fun. I decided that ⁓ you know, I l I lost enough money on the first one, why not do it again? Yeah. So we're doing the second one. and I don't know. I
speaker-1: Missed the timing of the mute.
speaker-0: I had a good time. I think for the scene it's good. It was cool to see these players like playing a little bit of stage. But yeah, I'm sorry, Dinko. Like I did that to you where you now are in the same trap as the rest of us. We're like, wow, they actually can play Counter-Strike, but then they see a European name on the scoreboard and it's just like Yeah, okay, maybe not. Maybe we just, you know, pump the brakes a little bit here and see what we got. ⁓ so I'm sorry. I did that to you. That's kinda like my thing. ⁓ you know
speaker-2: That's okay. I'm I'm ready to do it all over again. So I I I'm down for the ride. It I think I think for NRG though, I still have a little bit of faith in them. I mean they took a map off Furia, ⁓ at Blast Rotterdam. So, you know, that that's gotta be a a positive step in the right direction. We're not expecting them to beat all these top teams, but the fact you're taking a map off them in competitive series here and there. I think that's the best we can really hope for. And I think that's what we seen c and we spoke to to Nitro about earlier this year. But it is kind of the best what we could hope for. I I I'm sad to say, but it's
speaker-0: It's just already in the bin. We s we're like two seconds in. It's really great. Everything went really well. We just hope they get one singular map. Like And they did Which was which is great job guys. I mean I guess with what liquid's doing, yeah, you're not wrong. Like might as well just get like one map. Like let's just start somewhere.
speaker-2: They're Yeah, became America's since the last you know, Flawm Lance. That was good. They they actually are America's team again.
speaker-1: Are either of you ready to admit that Team Liquid is the best North American team?
speaker-0: No, what the fuck? How did you do that?
speaker-1: I just wanna I just wanted to know if either of you think that Team Liquid's the best American team.
speaker-0: No, no, absolutely not. I I'd actually I'd say NOG. I and I'd actually take ⁓ A D. I'd take both of them over Liquid. Genuinely, they played a best of three right now. You put ⁓ in the server right now. I think Liquid loses to both of them, yes.
speaker-1: Who's better than him?
speaker-2: I I think I think Lick I actually think Liquid are probably the best team. ⁓ which is kinda worse. So I I know I look at you know, that's pretty it tells you everything you really need to know. I mean they're not a great team right now, but ⁓ I d sadly I do think they they without pressure
speaker-0: Just with just with just without pressure. When do they not play with pressure? What is exactly
speaker-2: Exactly. But that's what I that's what I'm putting the scenario in. It's like if if we put Liquid and ⁓ eighty into like a deciding game going into the group into the playoffs, I think Team Liquid would wouldn't that. Like I just feel like if you put it into a really important matchup, I feel like just the stakes of you know the ego surely comes out from a liege. The the experience from some of these players really pops off. The skill ceilings higher, I think, on Team Liquid than any of the other squads. So I do feel like if you put it into crunch time, ⁓ if it's a non pressure game, I think these other teams could beat Liquid. But I think if it's a deciding group stage game going into the playoffs, I think Team Liquid beat them and I think that's where I would then make Team Liquid the best North American team.
speaker-0: Fuck no. Hell no. They couldn't even play themselves into the major. They shitter lucked their way in, man. They did it. They literally Alicia's own words, he's like, it doesn't even feel like we made the major because they just had to win and they couldn't even do that. Like they they had the pressure. They had the synaph way to put the bar high. We're talking about NA here, not clown car. Well, actually they're
speaker-1: However you gotta get to the major. You get you get to the major.
speaker-0: I didn't say they didn't make it fair and square. I'm just w back to the who's the best NA team and then saying they're gonna turn up under the pressure. They had a little bit of pressure to qualify for the major and they crumbled.
speaker-2: Pressure against North American teams in the context specifically against other North American
speaker-0: I think. Yeah. I just don't think they have the same fear like like ⁓ the other teams don't. Liquid used to be the big brother that would come back and beat the shit out of the little brother and be like, yeah, yeah, I'm still liquid and you're still who you are. I think that's gone. I think they've lost that within the region for sure. Like that that like you're not gonna you're not gonna you're not gonna start like struck ⁓ eighty or energy. In fact They are probably so excited to see you over anybody else consider what they you normally have to play against. I would take both those teams in a heartbeat over Liquid. And the big part is I still don't know what Liquid is. I don't know, like, do they want to win with a liege? Like, it doesn't really feel like it. Do they want to win with like incredible mid-rounding and like trying to manipulate what the other team No, it doesn't really feel like that. Are you trying to just brute force teams with mulbs and a liege? It doesn't feel like. That either and ultimate is a once in every 10-map wonder. So I don't really know how they're like, I know when I watch M80, if Lake has a good game, I know they're gonna win that game. Like, not like if he plays strong, now that doesn't mean they're gonna beat Liquid or something, but I know what that team is about. When I watch MRG play, I I feel like the same thing. Like when I see like Grim have his his thing, and I feel like O C actually has a strong map and Sonic is actually just super stable. I don't know. I Sonic is actually super underrated in my opinion. I I like what they bring where I don't know what Liquid wants to do to actually win the game. I don't know if they even know.
speaker-1: I don't I don't either yet, and I I don't think they do either. And I agree with everything you said, but I still think they would beat NRG more often than not in series play. MAD MAD is a a different question. But I think they would still I think I think they'd still have the edge on NRG. I think ⁓ as the hammers go wild, I I think that I actually think MAD could could challenge Liquid more often than not, but I think it's a product of Liquid's own like struggles. I think, you know, if you had a mobs who was playing his best and a leash who was playing his best, NAF playing his best, ⁓ You know, and even even Ultimate playing seventy percent, I think they're gonna be able to handle MD without too many issues. And this is all very generally speaking, but I actually just think the ceiling is so much higher. I think Liquid is its own its own worst enemy at the moment, and it's been that way for a while. And yeah, they haven't found an identity. These changes and disagreements and ⁓ you know, probably wasn't fucking Sunshine and Roses at the end of Twist tenure. We know it wasn't. Probably wasn't Sunshine and Roses just before Nerds left as well. ⁓ Shuhei coming in, there's a new coach in the team also. So I think I think they're just struggling to get a grip of it. But I mean that's not to excuse anything. I mean I don't know if they're gonna fix it. But I think they're still better than at least NRG.
speaker-2: I just think back to March and the the pro league ⁓ game that we had, whereas it's like the last game of the group stages a one-two game, Team Liquid versus ⁓ eighty. ⁓ I mean, this is a Team Liquid that already knew that Nerds was leaving the team right after the event. They were it was online. You were dealing with a bunch of, you know, chaos over there and Team Liquid. This was ⁓ this should have been a game ⁓ eighty go into and just think that they're taking it all day long. You know, you're going up against a team that are against the ropes, a team you're familiar with. And Euro team that's actually been together for a while, start of the year's been positive. All signs are looking good for ⁓ A D. ⁓ and they come into that, they lose their map pick thirteen three and they go on to lose the series to liquid. Yes, it was competitive throughout the rest of the game, but
speaker-1: Online counter strike Zinco.
speaker-2: I love that.
speaker-0: Have you looked at when they played at Lan where Dracula for Liquids when it when it was for Liquids major spot? You know, did you see how they played? It's a good point. It's a good point. They fucking crumbled. They fucking crumbled. They looked like dick. They were so bad. I just didn't quite
speaker-2: I just think when they ⁓ figure it out with mobs, like th I think that just is such an early game in this roster's history that you know hopefully I'll give them a little bit of leeway there. But
speaker-1: guess I'd have I guess I'd have M80 as the best North American team, but I actually don't think I think it's so fucking close. Like I d I actually don't think it's I don't think there's any level of like ⁓ excessive
speaker-2: I think liquid have a big swing. Like they could swing and there could be a massive upside. What like if they figure it out. That's my insight.
speaker-1: ⁓ The only problem with that is we felt that swing coming for like a year now. I'm still waiting for the fucking swing.
speaker-0: That's yes. That's that's what I'm saying.
speaker-1: We ⁓ we know it's there. We they we know the pieces are there, but where is it?
speaker-0: it never comes, then it's just is it's like when somebody tells you about potential for the fiftieth fucking time. If it's unrealized potential, no one gives a shit. Like at some point you have to realize the potential.
speaker-1: Yeah, so there's a short window of opportunity with potential before we have to start calling it something else, which is I guess just failure.
speaker-0: But the problem is with Liquid is how many times do we sit here and we're like, yeah, this roster on paper is pretty good. Like, I agree with everything you guys said when you're like when you go down the list, I don't dislike the roster. I love that they got mules. Mulves is like one of my favorite players. I love watching Mulves play. But even Mul Mulves Mulves embodies Liquid before he got to Liquid in the worst ways, which is He was doing great on G2. They brought him in. He was super comfy. He was having a a great time. And then they were like, Nico's leaving. Can you just be Nico? And that man's confidence has been he's never been the same since. He's not been the same.
speaker-1: He got he got fucking coosted.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, he did. They just just be just be Nico forehead is basically what they said. He couldn't do it. And then he completely spiraled. And he's never really like he's had like his moments where you see mobs again. But it he I feel like that's liquid to a tease. Like all these things kind of like this should work or could work or it looks good. And like these people have these potential, but then they always fall short, and then they get in their own head, and then things just spiral. Like everybody knows what they're supp what they're capable of, but when they don't achieve it immediately, they just start to It it just becomes overbearing.
speaker-1: I think also you have this like situation too where you have someone on this liquid rust. Have someone on this liquid roster in Alige who's like just who's got like the Nico talents, the Nico game understanding, the Nico abilities, but he's not like a mentor figure in the way Nico is. You know, he like he doesn't have that. Nico over the last few years has really developed like, let me take this guy under my wing. You know, Mobbs has been there, Monasy's been there. He's kind of developed that sort of attitude within his squads. Allige Allege doesn't have that. So it's you're playing with something equally good and equally as much of a star, but He's probably not like pulling you in and being like, All right, let's figure this shit out together quite the same way.
speaker-2: You really hammered that one home, Jason. I do appreciate that point. ⁓ Thank you. I think you know, you look earlier in the year as well with with Molves and the interviews he was giving, it's like, I'm trying to think about the game like Nico did. It's like the reason that Nico is like a phenomenon so much like above all other players, you know, within that top echelon of of great players is because he thinks about the game naturally, some in ways that other players just won't. So everyone's trying to think about the game the way Nico thinks about it. And like Newsflash, everyone's trying that and have been trying it for a long time. And I think
speaker-1: Yeah, thank you.
speaker-2: The the thing for Mulves, I'm glad to see when he's joined Team Liquid is like, okay, I'm actually done trying to emulate Nico and trying to be like Nico. It's time to to be Molps. ⁓ so I I do think, you know, he's a great player. I liked watching him in G two when he first joined the team. And ⁓ I do think steadily he's just had more and more inconsistent games. But Molves is a very talented player, and I think once he gets out of that mental funk, I mean he's not going into the greatest team for ⁓ getting out of a mental funk, I have to say. He's
speaker-1: Liquid's kind of kings of the mental funks. Yeah. You know, it's kind of ⁓ you you enter a mental funk as soon as you step in a strict cut starting lineup. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. Speaking from experience for sure. ⁓ absolutely.
speaker-2: Speaking of experience, Jason.
speaker-1: Yeah. It's a weird one. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It'll be ⁓ that's why I like events like like FML are fun, like Frag are fun, is like seeing some of the NA teams go up against each other. I'd I'd love to see like just a an event where like these teams just like get a fucking slog against each other, like two best of threes apiece getting through a fucking group stage. I think that'd be great to have them all just fucking duke it out.
speaker-2: I think
speaker-0: Running it back in September, so you'll get that. You'll get that. You'll get you'll get what you're asked for.
speaker-2: Can't wait for that. That's gonna be sick. But I think another one to look at is like we talked about who's the best North American team, who's the best North American player right now, is the other side of things. No, is it is it twists or elite?
speaker-1: I don't care about this debate. I d I I don't care in any way. ⁓ It's not worth speaking about. It's not worth talking about.
speaker-0: Why? It's like yeah. Nope. Nope. Best player on the fiftieth best team in the world.
speaker-1: Just don't care.
speaker-0: He said Twist too, like Twist doesn't disown the the North American scene based. I feel like he hates us. He's like, Yeah, like I guess I'm Canadian, like whatever. He's actually
speaker-1: Actually I'd prefer to give this record back to a different North American.
speaker-0: That's what it feels like. Sometimes, dude, come on, man. Like you're really good. Help us out. Well, I think that's I've actually only seen him get like that one other time. That was there was like a visceral response.
speaker-2: I I will not answer this question.
speaker-0: I've done this before I'm out. He's like, I'm sick of this shit, shut up, we're moving on
speaker-1: J is cause I'm so ti I'm so tired of watching Mongolian players pop up out of nowhere and kick the shit out of the international scene. Where are our Mongolians? We have one and he hasn't joined a team yet.
speaker-2: No Christ is holding. Yeah what did happen with no cries?
speaker-1: How is it possible that none of our players have popped off international?
speaker-0: I'm gonna actually host FML in Mongolia and then get players' citizenship back. What do we think?
speaker-2: Flom's Mongolian land. I'm with it. F ⁓ also works.
speaker-1: Honest question though, when was the last Ed A player pop off that was like the prodigal son actually showed up?
speaker-2: Toys.
speaker-0: I mean I'd say molves, actually. Like probably.
speaker-1: Sure, it but kind of a bittersweet now that it's been so short lived.
speaker-0: Well, yeah, I mean w he beat the shit out of Nico so bad that Nico's like, please play on that team and then join the team and then he had a good Yeah.
speaker-1: We're But now it's gone.
speaker-0: Yeah, so well not everybody can be Zywood and Donk, Jason. So we gotta take what we can get, you know? I mean, you know, for the the the shitty thing is you're absolutely right, is the Mongolians are like, yeah, Sensu, we don't really know what happened over there, but like Sensu he's out, and then they're just like, But like Cobrazera's pretty good, and also I don't know, we just have world class opera that used to play Dota, so he's pretty good too, and we're just gonna kinda own everybody. So I guess what you mean, they just kind of show up to a fucking land cafe, I guess, and they just have world class Like world class players sitting around ready to fry. I don't know.
speaker-2: I mean I went to Mongolia one year ago today and I went to those land centers. and it is like a farm of Counter Strike players, dude. Like you go we went to a bar and you know, we're just gonna go grab a drink and on the way up, everything's like a multi story building. So like floor one you go in, it's like a business district, floor two is Korean barbecue, floor three is a counter strike cafe and then karaoke's on the top floor, so kinda has everything you really need. ⁓
speaker-1: Really?
speaker-0: You progress through life. You go to work, you eat, you play Counter Strike, then you get drunk and sing.
speaker-2: Exactly. It's kind of one floor for every hour that passes on. So, ⁓ we went in there and it's just like maybe three hundred to four hundred PCs just all stacked up one in a row and it's just people playing Counter Strike all day. ⁓ and you know, most of them are very young, you know, teenagers. So I think the Mongols obviously did a great job at, you know, popularizing it and everybody kind of aspires to to go and try and be like the Mongols. But it's just the amount of how how Counter Strike is part of culture in Mongolia. I just don't think it's the same, ⁓ vast culture here in America. There's too many things to enjoy here in America. So there's a lot more distractions. No.
speaker-0: ⁓ he actually kinda nailed that one. I really don't know what to say to that. Yeah. So what he's saying is I need to create I need to create a North American Counter-Strike farm of peace.
speaker-2: Of teenagers with a karaoke bar upstairs.
speaker-0: Just get on my power and a sponsor. We'll have like six hundred people. Instead of hosting lands, we just have them play I don't know, DreamHack, I guess? NA DreamHack? But like all the time
speaker-1: You need you need a you need to build like a Rocky montage of Counter Strike, like a just a facility that you run them through the Rocky montage of training Counter-Strike. Just one by one.
speaker-0: You think people coming up these days are gonna know about Rocky? I th I don't think they're gonna
speaker-1: No, but they'll get into the montage. You know, like no one can resist a good montage.
speaker-0: Showing.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: I'm gonna try to run up the stairs and probably pass out halfway through.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'll watch that. I'm in. And if you slap it up to some of that old school Lincoln Park like the Frag movies were, it'd be even better. You know, Crystal Method in there, get some of the old tunes going.
speaker-2: Ha ha ha.
speaker-0: This could save the the you you nailed it. This could save North American Counter-Strike right now. I think we're missing a Rocky montage fixes all of our
speaker-1: Genuinely and this is no joke, this is one of my least discussed opinions in public, but I think actually if we started making frag movies and like event highlight frag movies to rock music instead of EDM, I think it would c take Counter Strike to a whole new level. And I'm not fucking joking about that. I'm dead serious. God damn it.
speaker-2: I'm just waiting for them to come. I'm literally ready for them to come through the ceiling and just collapse behind you, Jason.
speaker-0: You get amped up.
speaker-1: Dead serious. It'll create a whole new atmosphere in this scene. Create a whole new tone for the game.
speaker-2: ⁓ we're missing.
speaker-0: I saying that you just threw shade at Chris, ⁓ who's producing right now, 'cause he did make a frag movie for F ⁓ L and he did use E D ⁓ So Chris, this is actually a direct insult at you. It's not
speaker-1: Directed at you into the world that you happen to be a part of as well.
speaker-2: Just people like you.
speaker-0: Well, don't blame him. It's because we can't use any of that music and monetize it. Or we just get we get nuked into oblivion.
speaker-2: I think we look at people like ⁓ you know, the musicians, Jason really I think you should call out all ⁓ musicians because they're just not making very good copyright free rock music. So
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: I bet there's some. I bet we haven't explored it.
speaker-0: We need some good divorced dad rock to really get a nice rag movie too. Just like pop off. That'd be that'd go crazy. That'd be insane. Okay, okay. We've actually derailed. I'm a host. We got it. We're ⁓
speaker-1: Divorce dad rock music. That's a f
speaker-2: There's a Segway available somewhere.
speaker-0: I know when I said divorce dad rock, I like wait a second, I need to I need to reel some back So wait, well we've we've beaten the North American dead horse I think. We got ra Rocky montage, rock music needs to come back, and we need to Yeah, and Tris hates us and that's okay 'cause
speaker-2: He's coming back to America with FaZe to play at Blast Fort Worth ⁓ the Rivals event. ⁓ so you know, at least he's returning in that way. But they're not gonna be very competitive whatsoever, so they'll probably not make the arena.
speaker-0: Damn. Sh shit. Well well wait. Okay, so we just skip this topic then? Like
speaker-2: I think you look at the teams going to Blast Fort Worth, it's and Vitality, Navi, Furia, Astralis, Foot, G2, FaZe and Gamer Legion.
speaker-0: So Yeah. I like it. Yeah, you really said those last two the appropriate way. That was good. Yeah. I ⁓ I mean I you know what this this event just is a little bittersweet because I just hate the timing of it with the VRS stuff. I think I told Jason this when we were call on where we were yapping the other day where I I hope all the events kind of do a closer cutoff. Cause I just think ⁓ you know, from like ⁓ from I I watch all the games, you know, despite all the co-streaming changes, they didn't really affect me because I just never turn off the stream because I'm an addict anyway. ⁓ I I just I I wish that this event was like the cutoff was closer, not so FaZe could be in the major. They'd probably bomb out even harder, let's be honest. ⁓ but like it just sucks because if we're gonna be after the major and then we're gonna start talking about Singapore and then you're gonna have to backtrack.
speaker-2: We definitely can't strike.
speaker-0: You're gonna have to backtrack before this upcoming major cologne and then think about blast in terms of the VRS and the implications of this event. And that kind of sucks. I don't I don't like that. That just ⁓ it like this is I this should be such a hype event, but for me, I I'm looking forward to the matchups. But this is like let's just see, I guess, who's in best form for the major vitality, even if they lose, I don't really care. but let's just see who's gonna be second.
speaker-1: You just put it you just put it right there. Everything from now to the major is gathering evidence to see if anyone can increase our faith that they can compete with vitality. Every event from here on is su is pr praying that some other team shows us a sign that they're making the steps to get closer to competing with Vitality. And nothing else really matters because as you said, even if Vitality don't win this event, we don't care. Even if Vitality don't win in Atlanta, we don't care. You know, like None of it truly unless they like bomb out in last place with some severe critical issues, it won't even be a talking point. So, you know, someone else needs to show us something, or else, you know, that's just what made up to the major is.
speaker-2: I really hope it's foot. I really have enjoyed watching them. I think
speaker-1: ⁓ you sweet summer child. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: Yes, he's good.
speaker-2: They're not gonna they're not gonna challenge vitality, sure. But ⁓ but I think them showing that if they could get to another final, I think that would be really impressive, you know, if they're beating up on the rest because we lost phase ⁓ as the most entertaining team in Counter Strike. And now I think for for me or the team I enjoy watching the most. So I think I'm I'm glad to see them onto the to come out of the world stage this season. I think the fact they were obviously lifting a trophy at the last event and and PGL, Bucharest, and you know, getting closer and closer to that and it's sort of seeing this progression, I think this would be a great time to do it. You know, you're already qualified for the major, ⁓ you're gonna be in a good form going into it. If you can make it to a final, I think it'll be really, really impressive for a foot. And I think that's a fun story to follow at this
speaker-1: What's your high point expectation for foot at the major?
speaker-2: High point, ⁓ quarter final.
speaker-1: What do you what do you okay, so you're saying best best you'd expect out of them at the majors a quarter final? Yeah. It's not bad. I mean, yeah.
speaker-2: And I think if they got some experience playing in front of a crowd, then I would actually feel a lot better about their chances maybe for Yeah, but that's very small. I think this'll be cool 'cause the Dickies Arena is cool, ⁓ venue in in Fort Worth. So I think that'll be cool. And the American crowd is always super loud and and passionate. I think they could get everyone is going to hate Vitality, right? So you're going to get the American crowd on your side, no matter who's going up against
speaker-1: Not a little bit in Stockholm. ⁓ Everyone's gonna hate Apex. Yes. It's gonna be a lot of fuck you Apexes. That's gonna be like a permanent fixture in the Vitality games.
speaker-0: That's all we got going on in North America is we got we got fuck you Apex. Yeah, it's a g it's a solid one. I think ⁓ I agree with you. I think Foot is probably the most entertaining team in Counter Strike. I kinda like how you put that. I will say one team I the good news with the blast event is we're only missing one team that I feel like is contending for number two right now. Like the the best of the rest kings, which is yeah, Navi Spirit, and then I had I I will or sorry, not Navi. Yeah, Navi, Spirit, Furia, Astralis, which I don't know if you guys agree with that or not. And then Foot. And those are kind of like the teams to me that are the most interesting right now. And then I kind of like put in like a power ranking where I'd put probably Navi is the best between those, then Foot. Then I'd actually probably take Astralis over Furia right now. We'll see. We'll see. Molodoy is really scaring the shit out of me right now. So then I'd probably ⁓ wait, no. No, I forgot Spirit. I'm looking at the blast event right now and I just fucking s fucked up my order. Probably like Navi Spirit. Like those are probably the two that I think have the closest chance of beating a vitality. But then when you get the matchups against the rest of them, I don't know. It's a clusterfuck. I think it's just. ⁓
speaker-2: It's just unfortunate, it's hard to see anybody at this event beating Vitality.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, I yeah I know, I know, I know. I'm just saying like best of the rest though. Like I think Navi is probably the best of the rest. their map pool is actually pretty decent. Mikaze finally looks like you know, I was I was starting to kind of write off Mikaze, I'll just be brutally honest. I was kinda like everybody's been hyping him up, but I didn't like see it for a while. Yeah, now I'm like now I'm like, okay, I understand I understand now. Like it it took a while. I'd say it literally took like Probably four months, maybe a little bit longer. And now that he's playing well, you can see the rest of it's like when JL played well, which is, you know, an easy comparison to make and easy to understand. But having that player that can be that X factor unlocks bit in the lurk. And ⁓ it allows Wonderful to play post plants better, which is where they want him to be. It allows Emma to not feel as stressed to force openings, right? Like it it's Mikaze playing so much stronger has made Navi. I don't want to say dangerous. Yeah, I don't want to say that they're gonna beat Vitality, but I do feel like they're the firm number two right now. Yeah. But I think Spirit is kind of sneaky at the moment where everybody's kind of down on Magic's calling and it went really rough and it's been really poorly. But they still have Don Kenshiro. They look at how decent, like, or honestly, look at how good Spirit now that Tenir shot well. And then
speaker-1: Yeah. Like Donk played one of his worst games of his career back in Stockholm in the pro league final or then he played the next worst game in his career just like last week against was it Red Kinids or something that he had like the worst map of his career?
speaker-2: Yes, it's right.
speaker-0: You're saying donk's fallen off? You think that's you think that's
speaker-1: I'm just saying if you're gonna point to Donk as ⁓ a reason to keep hoping him, I'm gonna say that he's having a he's having a few more inconsistencies pop up here and there. And granted he said he was sick ⁓ at the previous. Yeah, it's like take from it what you will. But you know, he's shown I think his first two years were so crazy, people generally started believing that like he was like w another one of those like ⁓ just immortal players who never has bad games.
speaker-2: He didn't.
speaker-1: ⁓ I think a lot of people thought that that kind of like baseline that he established over his first two years was something that was just gonna be kept up because we hadn't seen it done in two years. So I think yeah, I mean he's he's time to have like it's time for him to have like a downshift, you know, where you'd think like you can't keep up that pace surely for like the entirety of things. Especially So now it's like can you can you outlast the downshift? If he is gonna have like a rough stretch, what do you look like for the first time in two years? Let's see what you look like if Donk isn't this overwhelmingly dominant player inside the server. Yeah, I think it's a cool test for the team.
speaker-2: He's kept him competitive, he's kept him in the conversation at the top of the world. But I think when you look at a team like Vitality, the reason they're so good they have Zywu, obviously. But then you look at everyone else and it's like Rops is inc incredible, Apex is the best performing IGL right now, Mezi's great at his role, Flanes is great at his role. I mean, there's literally no weak link. Whereas when you look at Team Spirit, yes, you have one huge outlier, an overperformer in his role and Donk. And Shiro's a Oper, but can be a bit inconsistent. But like you don't you're not gonna say that Magic's is a good IGL, he's just started doing it. There's like so many reasons as to why Spirit I don't even see how they could all figure even if they figured it all out, right, and started like playing well, they still wouldn't match every single department that vitality have.
speaker-1: They have they have like a similar a similar issue as like Team Liquid, where you look at this roster and know that like the past like three events you've been watching have been underperforming for what this roster should be able to output. And it's one of those things where it looks so ugly, but you know if they put it together it's gonna go from looking ugly to looking like really good. Like the turnaround's gonna happen really fast if slash when they figure it out. And I think this this event was a good turnaround where it felt like they figured something out part of the way through. And they went from dropping a map to Red Kinids and being like, what the fuck is up with Spirit to then destroying fucking everybody on the path to the grand finals. And that was like a great bucket of cold water to get hit in the face with, like from his from from watching Spirit, in the sense that Pro League was disappointing. The last like two outings had been disappointing. Didn't really know what to think. All the upheaval. Halley's not there. Everything around the team has been pretty negative for like a good six weeks up until this last event. So I think people people are ready to get back to being excited about spirit because the player quality and what we've seen them do in the past already makes us feel like it can get back there very quickly.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I just think that you to to really dumb it down, I feel like you need a generational talent to be able to deal with vitality. You need that's that has to be your starting point. That's why I actually don't think I don't think that's why I think that's literally why Navi's gonna always struggle, like to consistently beat vitality. I mean, you can even hear when Blade does like an interview, is like he's like, We need to hypnotize them. You know what I mean? Like he's joking, but like he knows that when you they're built in similar ways and vitality is just better across the board when you go down Like in every single position, where I feel like that outlier that you guys are talking about with Donk, I am one of those delusional motherfuckers that thinks maybe that is Donk's normality. I mean, we're talking about him being down right now, and he is literally the second best player in the world, and it's not even close.
speaker-1: Flum, did you did you jump on the overhyped bandwagon of calling Donk the goat last year? Do you remember there was that stretch of time where people were already crowning him the goat? I'm happy to hear that.
speaker-0: No, I know. But I do think I do I would tell you that individually I think Donk was better than Zaiwu last year. But I also understand why Zaiwu had to win best player of the year, if that makes sense. Because I think at a certain point achievements do have to matter. But if I think if I watched a demo of either one and somebody said which player is better, I would tell you Donk. And if you just remove nameplates. If I just watch the game and I just said wow and I'm watching it without any context and I see Who is playing what, I would have probably picked dog. And I'm trying to be honest with myself without knowing. But then I'm not trying to start that whole debate. I'm not. I'm just telling you why I felt that way. So when I go back to the I know he was revved up, I could see it. But I think when it comes to spirit, that's why I like them being able to maybe potentially take vitality. Where if Magics can get his shit together, which is hard to do. I'm not really I I'm one of those people where I think it's gonna take a lot more time with magics. I'm not saying they need to
speaker-2: Yeah, Jason, go on.
speaker-0: Do it now, but if there is gonna be a team, I think over time, if they mature into this, and if Tanier can reproduce what he just did at the last event, this is a team that truly can like if Magic grows into being a leader more for that team, and actually I would say as corny as this sounds, some of the interviews that he gives now as the IGL are more mature than what he did before. And I know, like, you know, you could like his old interviews before, you could say the bar isn't high, whatever. But you can tell that he's like ⁓ he's taking responsibility more for what's happening with the team. He actually explained what went wrong in the games after when when they lost, where previously he would just like brush it off as like a meme. Where now it's like he's kind of getting into what he thinks went wrong. You can hear him breaking down the game. And to me, I almost see that as him taking accountability for what's going on in the team and taking on that role. So if he can do that and continue to build himself and allow his players to play, he literally has one of the best operas in the world on his team. He has undeniably the best rifler, like pure rifler on his team. And if Tanier can get back to that form where we saw him in heroic, even just close to it, this team goes from something where we're like, yeah, they're kind of just like wishy washy, top five team, and they rely on Donk to okay, they're firm number two. And I think they would start beating Navi. in a lot of scenarios because of what I just said, where I would take dunk over Mikaze and then like over over anybody, right? That's why you need like one of those players. You need like a dunk, you need a monasy to really when the game gets crazy, you need that.
speaker-1: Here's ⁓ here's my question because I'm one of those people that you would probably label the ⁓ Magic's doubter, but it's not so much doubting Magics himself as much as doubting like this this team I feel like is aiming to win majors now. So it's kind of more doubting the timeline or questioning the timeline.
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, well yeah, co well, I mean Overdrive said two years, which was which was fucking crazy. I think someone from Vitality came out or ⁓ you know, I shouldn't say that. ⁓ some some other pro player came out and said they expected probably to take like within a year, magic, so it'll kind of get to a point where he he becomes stronger IGL. But so so you say they're gonna be able to compete, you think down the road when all that develops, but it's like, okay, well ⁓ are you expecting that development to hit at the major? What like this team is gonna compete with them down the road, but probably not at the major.
speaker-2: Would we agree that would we agree that this last event was their best event yet with Magics as the in-game leader?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, it's that's not even close.
speaker-2: Then the question becomes, you know, this is an event without Halley at the event. You know, what what does that mean for the team? You know, you don't have your coach and suddenly, you know, this is the best event where you've looked looked the best. And then your next event's coming up is Stana. If they look better even there, you know, starting to question, you know, would Magic's maybe benefit with the coaching change coming in? There's a there's a lot of great minds in Counter Strike to speak Russian. Like you can get a great there's a lot of options to g if you want to move in a different direction there.
speaker-1: I think I think changing out Holly would be really, really premature. I think that'd actually be really bad for Spirit. I I'd I would be very hesitant to do that if if I were them. So I mean I don't know what they're thinking and considering but and what that situation is as well. But I think that'd be an overreaction to a point where I think you're gonna want Holly's experience down the road, ⁓ especially with the new IGL ⁓ in the mix. ⁓ but ⁓ certainly, I mean, that'll be something to keep track of as they go on. But I think the I had a point that I think I just lost that I was gonna say right before I got sidetracked into the other point. ⁓ Yep, someone else start talking.
speaker-0: Alright, I got you. I'm gonna get it back. You're you're premature for Hallie leaving, maybe? Magic's ideals and Okay, okay. I was trying to backtrack a little bit to help you. Alright, we won't help him. Fuck it.
speaker-2: That's all good. We can just move on and maybe I'll come back to him.
speaker-0: Well no, I do think ⁓ just to build on what it I think it is premature to for the Holly thing.
speaker-1: He's got it. ⁓ I think ⁓ we have to realize too, let's be honest about what Spirit did at this event, because it was their best result. It was their best performance with Tanier, it was their best result with Magics as the IGL. But it was also one of those events where I think they'd they'd hit a slew of like rock bottom. And I think what kind of worked out for them eventually was that upset l map loss to Red Kinids, where that just pisses everyone off so much, and you go out and have that conversation and say, Why the fuck is everyone playing like pussies? Can we stop can we stop doing this? Can we actually play Counter Strike? And then you go in and you steamroll them in that game because you're not thinking anymore. You're just swinging. Someone said, These guys suck. Take the fights. We don't need to think about this. And then they did that. And they steamrolled. And then they just carried that confidence into the next game, into the next game, into the next game. So yeah, I think tactically they showed improvements. And obviously when you start playing better individually, you get more into the groove of the team elements of the game as well. But, you know, let's see if this was a flash in the pan, you know, for a positive. So like they could still crumble at the next event, which would be which would suck.
speaker-0: No, yeah. I I completely agree. I'm a bit of a psychopath. I thought this before their before their run. That's like that's why I feel com I was saying this after Pro League. 'Cause I don't know. I just I I feel like they have too much talent on that roster not to be relevant as like the closest team. If Tanir can get online, like that's a big if. I know we hadn't seen that, but I just
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-0: Dude, he's too good. You watch this guy play, like it's clearly just a mental thing. Just get out of your own fucking way. And I think that plays into your point, which is somebody just went out there and was like, fuck it, run it down. And it you know what it is, in my opinion, is when I think about what caused that over like over analytical game plan is probably Magic's IGLing. It's probably Halley trying to p fucking boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, cram a bunch of things with magics, and they're trying to do all these things all at once, and everybody's trying to like play what they're talking about, right? They talk about their boot camp for the first time. Everybody's practicing and like trying to play a certain way instead of just playing. And I think that once they take a L to K ⁓ Kenid's, like you you're just like, nah, fuck it. We don't care. And but they start playing about with everything that they talked about. But now there's like this intent to just like play the game rather than think about the game. And I think that happens a lot with newer teams. It's actually This is gonna go back to NA here, but I think it's actually why Alis teams struggle a lot. ⁓ which is yes, because Alish is such an analytical guy. If you've ever talked to a cat like Counter-Strike with Alige, he is such ⁓ like he has a reason for everything. He's min-maxed every single like scenario in his head, but when he starts like bringing that to other people, they don't all think that way. And I think it overwhelms a lot of people. And I'm saying Like I see that a lot in Counter Strike. It's not like a liege. It's not just spirit. I think when there's like this, this is what we should do. And we have all these systems in place and all these protocols, you just forget to play. You're just you're you're trying to like play like by the by the book so much that you you forget your own identity in the process and you forget how you were supposed what you were supposed to be doing. That's why I Tanir is sucked in spirit the entire time. It's why I think that they've struggled so much to bring in magics. I think that they try to like instill this. This is how we're supposed to play and they forget who they are in the process and then they they can't get it back sometimes.
speaker-1: Yeah, you lose an individual identity because you're no longer thinking the way that you would think intuitively, you're thinking the way you've been told to think. So it just takes more time to click in.
speaker-2: bring it back to foot and why I think they're so enjoyable to watch. They're not trying to play like anybody else. They're playing like foot, right? And ⁓ I think the fact that they've stuck together for so long and Kerbeni is so confident in the way that they play. I mean, we were just constantly saying, you know, we've seen teams come up playing a little bit like Foot in the past. And then they eventually get figured out and they just slow down right away. But I think Foot have a little bit more to their game and I just love that the the way they do approach Counter Strike. So I think that's gotten them so far just playing Counter Strike that they're comfortable with. You know, even when they go into the big games, you see them go down. I remember this pro league game against Miles where they're just getting wrecked on dust too and they come back into it. ⁓ and I think that's definitely something that has helped foot is just the fact that this is a team who just play their style of counter-strike unapologetically.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I mean they're they're they play They play good counter strike. It's it's very rough around the edges, right? Like they don't do anything like mind blowing. They end up throwing a lot away away a lot of rounds too. They make tons mistakes. Yeah, yeah. And I mean that that happens I mean to even to the best teams, but it's certainly a team of this experience level, and as they're going in, you can see the kind of roughness to the game. But I think that that's also what makes it so much fun. Is like yeah, they are just I mean, they're gonna make a mistake, but they're gonna make it, you know, going a hundred and ten percent through the fucking wall while they make the mistake and they're gonna smile while doing it. So yeah, they're they're Cool team to watch, but I'll be honest, ⁓ there's only one. There's one extremely interesting team at at Dallas, at Blast Rivals, and that's G2. I think they're far more interesting than any other team at this event. Because I think no other team at this event has a chance of beating Vitality. I think G2 is one of One of I think two teams I'm gonna say has a decent chance to beat Vitality.
speaker-2: What's the other one?
speaker-0: He's gonna say Fay.
speaker-1: You want me to drop this? ⁓
speaker-2: Yeah, go for it.
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-2: That I was about to get I was like, Okay, well,
speaker-1: We'll do that I'll think this is the Dallas segment. Next one's the Who's Gonna Beat Vitality segment. We'll get into
speaker-2: Bro, we need to we need to start calling it Fort Worth. Otherwise Fort Worth locals are gonna hate you, Jason. I was I'm just gonna say it. People I seen people walking around Barbecue Place the other day wearing We Are Not Dallas T shirts. This is just on a random evening. Like they're gonna they're gonna get you one. It's gonna I'm
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: You know, I was gonna correct him, but I I I'm not from there, so I was like, Yeah, but you know, Dinko's in the area a little bit more, so he's a little bit more in tune with what's going on.
speaker-1: But it's good to do that just to segment my brain away from IEM Dallas.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Last four four three. Yeah, that'll be good.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, I think G2 is probably for me the most exciting team in this group because I wanna ⁓ you know, you wanna talk about another kind of new guy switching into IGL position, Hunter, ⁓ and how well he's able to play. And I I think how well he can gear this team and how well he's stepped into that role. Again, another IGL who's not yet showing us anything like mind blowing. He's not like blowing our socks off strategically the way he moves the team around the map, but he calls good counter strike and he's got good players. The nerds reuniting, ⁓ Over with ⁓ with with Saw standing behind him as a coach, I think is huge with Sunpaeus as well, who I think is still showing signs of being able to get back to his previous peak. Heavigod, I think, is going to be a generational talent ⁓ that you wanted Flam. I think at some point in his career we're gonna be talking about him that way. Probably more in the vein of like a Rops where he's just like so good at so many things and so well rounded. That, you know, it's not gonna be like a simple kind of a conversation. It'll be more like this guy's just fucking amazing at everything he touches. And Mattis has been about a million times better than I expected when G two picked him up. So I actually think this team has a ton of talent behind it. I think they have one of the best coaches in Counter Strike. I think Saw's gonna get a lot of flowers or I hope he gets a lot of flowers as this G two team continues to get better and better. But you've re cited re reunited him with one of them what, he was rookie of the year three years ago and then got that liquid funk, you know? But we don't need
speaker-0: Yeah, the classic.
speaker-1: So yeah, I think this G2 team is actually like sneakily and quietly geared up. And this didn't factor into my my thought process, but just as an aside, I think Hunter blowing out his fucking ankle and missing an event is maybe one of the best things that could have happened. Like giving giving an IGL, like after like he's had like his like first year of doing it and like kind of stepping into the role, just giving him the extra week to breathe and like Honestly, when you're on these teams and going and playing event to invent and trying to improve the team and prepare for opponents and practicing and doing your own individual prep and just trying to live as a human being occasionally, like you don't have all the fucking time in the world. So that like one extra week off where you don't have to travel to the event and don't get stuck into the day-to-day event grind of like match preparation and you can take like a step back and look more big picture holistically at how things have been going. Dude, that's that's so that's such a fucking gift. That's such a gift in this scene at the moment to have that come up like right before the major. I think it's like ⁓ I mean it's obviously not gonna be the fucking difference between winning and fucking losing the entire major and lifting the trophy, but I think it's a huge benefit to be able to like have that reset mode before you go take the deep plunge of the major.
speaker-0: Not honestly, that was hold on wait, hold on. Let me just wow, that was great. That was great. Yeah, this is you're no no, you were you were going there, you were spitting, you're going crazy. I I really like the G2 roster. I mean, I will say that my own side. No, I do. I do like the roster. It it kind of feels like they're an afterthought a lot of the time because we just really haven't seen them too much right now. And then obviously when we would have seen them, they didn't have Hunter, so it's kind of like
speaker-1: It feels like they've taken more of a slow burn strategy since most of these changes like since they've made the roster changes, we haven't seen them too much and at nothing like crazy high profile if I recall, right? Like they
speaker-0: No, they haven't planned. They just at yeah, they were just at the Imperiums and the Stake ⁓
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, that's what I mean. Like you know, well there it's it's gonna get overshadowed by, you know, I am Rio going on. You know you know what I mean? Like they played it, yeah, stake, radio popular, Roman Imperium, B C G mas like they've yeah, they've just kind of been chilling in like the smaller grind, ⁓ getting some experience. So I think it's kind of a cool cool tactic to like have that that quiet sort of a grind before things begin once you've already qualified and getting the roster up to date and like easing into it.
speaker-2: It's like a comedian doing jokes to smaller venues before the big show.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, test test knowledge. Because
speaker-2: These events are full of really cool ideas and cool teams. Like the the likes of ⁓ you know tier two teams come up with new strats and ideas and new pieces of utility more so because like you were just saying, ⁓ the the teams who are at the tier one level never get time to go home, right? So you you see if so many teams actually start lagging behind a a new meta that's kind of developing in tier two, because they're just playing online whole time, right? So I've heard and spoke to teams who play tier two teams, like okay, we actually steal utility from these guys and ideas from these guys. So I think it's quite cool for G2 to actually go to some of these like tier two events as well, ⁓ and get a taste of the level down there and and maybe pick a few things up going into these tier one games again. But ⁓ I do have to agree with the heavy god point as well, Jason. I think he's just gonna get better and better. It's just his career is crazy so far, you know, where he's been and what he's done. ⁓ and I think even with that mobs team, there were so many games where you're just wondering, you know, are G2 gonna lose this? And and Heavy God would save them on maps and sometimes entire series. So Yeah, it takes them takes them up a step for sure.
speaker-1: He's player's player.
speaker-0: Players, players He could play for Team Spirit someday. ⁓ wait the Dinka. Okay, Dinka. Now we're that yeah, that's it. That's could you imagine heavy god to spirit? That's how we That would that team beats Vitality.
speaker-1: Spirit. That team beats vitality. Two generational players.
speaker-2: No he also tweeted back in ⁓ twenty twenty four, for all those asking, ⁓ I am speaking Russian and we're going to speak Russian in this cloud nine team. It's been a while since Spirit Academy and Webster's. So, you know, he's he's even been in contact with this guys too. Back in there.
speaker-0: Get him get him back, dude. Get him back. G2 stumbles, get him back. Cause I I I actually love Hunter as an IGL, by the way. I wanted to say this before I could. I've always been a I always thought he should be IGL. This I also think Nico should be the IGL, but we'll we'll table that for a second. I know. Give him and Hunter Hunter was always painfully obvious. What are these players where there's certain players that play better ⁓ when they talk more and they communicate and they control more? And Hunter always seemed like the perfect fit. And then G tier management. I think they got a lot of shit for what happened with Montesty and Nico. And I think if you look at what they've done with this roster, and then when now you have a great comparison, really. Maybe not in terms of gen well, no, honestly, generational talents too. When you look at what happened with FaZe, and when you look at what happened now with G2 and how both organizations have handled their situations, like with their star players leaving in different ways, different timelines, it doesn't even feel like G2. I mean, G2 has literally won a tournament with this roster. They've won an event with Hunter as the IGL. Isn't that insane? I think they've won two. I if they wanted
speaker-1: They wanted over monas ⁓ no, they won it with monasy over falcons, wasn't it? No.
speaker-0: Well no, no, Monesty was gone and they won it without it. Let me see. They they've won an event. It like literally
speaker-2: That's London.
speaker-1: They won the event, but no I'm talking sorry, I've mixed it up. I was talking about Falcons won an event with Dexter beating Monese on G two.
speaker-0: That's
speaker-2: It was the black that was P GL Bucharest twenty twenty five. Like in the
speaker-1: And then yeah, and then it was it was the blast event af right after Hunter joined, right? It was the blast lunch.
speaker-2: It was Blast London with the G three two one.
speaker-0: And ⁓ I just want to s like so I just want to kind of give flowers to the G2 org because you really can see where I think as money gets tighter too, unless you're basically Falcons, you can really start to see where the academy teams have paid off or like good general management has started to pay off because you're really starting to see like who is picking the right players and building teams and who is just like buying things and hoping it works or just like making random signings be and they're kind of more like panic rather than like plans. And I feel like G2. You know, I was critical of them when everything went down. I'm not gonna try to sit here and I'm not gonna sit here and try to like backtrack or something like that. But I am also going to admit that they kind of know what the fuck they're doing. And they've built a great roster. I think when I think of this peak, I think you're right. I I view Heavy God, everything you said about Heavy God, I agree entirely. 100% generational talent on the way, and he would be very similar to how Rops is. I agree with that entire like lens of Heavy God of how you framed it. I think. The interesting thing though is some paias has been a bit weaker. ⁓ he is teamed up with Saw. So, you know, you would like to see a little bit more considering you feel like he should be comfortable in what they're doing. He should be knowing what he's doing at all times. He knows exactly what's needed of him. So it's a little disappointing, but he is on an uptick. And then the other thing is, is I just feel like it is entirely up to some paias and nerds for the G2 roster to be successful. I don't ⁓ I'm Dumbing it down, but when I look at this roster, I know Matty's is gonna be a little hit or miss, but he's really fucking good at what he does most of the time. He's not gonna be, he's like your Flames type. And I know Flames is having like an insane year right now, but he's very much like a Flames type. You have Heavy God, who like a like we said, we just compared to Robs. The problem is though, is you're missing you're missing a Zywoo or like, you know, not everybody's gonna be vitality, but nerds and some paias have a lot of heavy lifting to do the way that this team is built. and in terms of just overall output of frags, Maddie's is gonna be in there and and have you guys gonna be trying to close this stuff down, but like in these mo for these multi-kills, what I like in the middle of the round, who I'm gonna be seeing is like nerds and some pious a lot of the time. And I feel like I hope the liquid jersey just didn't stick to nerds, is basically what I'm trying to say. Like I I really I can see it. I can see everything that you said, but it's also I it's also like it's really hard for me to get to exactly where you are with what I've seen the individual level from both of them.
speaker-1: Pit he he's hit a one point one seven rating in twenty five maps with G two. It's good for third best on the team.
speaker-0: Yeah, I don't think like I said, I don't think he's doing bad. It's just there's when you start talking about a team, you said beat vitality. So what I'm trying to like build this up in my head, that's tough. I just see like a
speaker-1: You want to know the craziest thing about Vitality. Here's the hardest thing is I actually don't think there's a team there's not a team that I would tell you can beat Vitality in a best of five in the grand final itself. Agreed. I think if Vitality loses this major, they have to A not make the playoffs, which is probably not fucking happening. B losing the quarterfinals or C losing the semifinals, obviously. I think once you get him to a best of five, the map the map pool is too crazy for a best of five. So like one of these teams is just gonna have to beat ⁓ on the path and just say, We'll take you down in the BO three first.
speaker-2: It's really tough to see any team beating them. I think last year when Furio going through some good form, like obviously that was a team that was kind of in the conversation. ⁓ but yeah, like you like you were saying, Flam, the fact that Molodoy's dropped off is just like that team is no longer the the same team at all.
speaker-0: Man, it's sad. Yeah. That w that roster was so sick when Molador was playing as well as he was. ⁓ my god. That w like you say Foot's your favorite team. Fury was my favorite team to watch the last six months of last year.
speaker-1: That made that seem really exciting.
speaker-0: I mean you can do too. I mean and 'cause then like I mean when you just see Case Rada walking around the map playing pass
speaker-1: And fallen too.
speaker-2: And Fallen was clutching.
speaker-0: Well yeah. I'm not trying to gloss over ⁓ It's just like yeah, Molodor and Nikendra were like the fireworks for that roster and Yuri and Case Rado have always been a bit more passive players, so it it really opened up that team. Like it's kinda like when you finally get somebody that doesn't talk a lot start talking too much, and you just get to hear them talk about things like wow, you actually have thought you got lot to say. That's kinda how that team felt. It's like wow, you guys got a lot more packed into this roster than I thought before. And yeah, that so no, I sh Fury it would be so much more fun, man, if Molodoy was just honestly maybe
speaker-2: Are you ⁓ maybe that's the comparison between what you were just talking about with G2 though, Floom is the idea like look what Fury become when their AUPR drops off and isn't competing at the top level, right? Like they just become a lot more of an average team, like good, but not gonna be able to beat the top dog. So I think that's kind of similar. Like if G two, they got all the pieces. Imagine they had ⁓ an AUPR who was performing the way Molodoy was last year, then yeah, that enters the conversation of just having a really, really strong top team there. So but I think yeah, Fury and G two, I think, are pretty comparable at the moment. For for me personally.
speaker-1: I've I've G2 ahead of him, obviously, but I have my angle to it. I don't know, Furia, I don't know if the alarm bells are going off right now, but even even kind of like last year when they were hitting their peaks and it was crazy to watch, I still always got the sense that it wasn't like anything that was gonna it didn't it never felt lasting to me. I could never really put my finger on it, but it didn't feel like it was like a lasting fucking peak. so like I don't know. I I don't have alarm bells going off, but they're certainly struggling at the moment to maintain any kind of serious level. And I don't know, it's it's been a weird few months for them too, so I kind of don't really know how to analyze it. Like there's you tons of tons of shit. Like you pro league, they had Fallen, had to go back to Brazil for some personal stuff, so they couldn't even use him at the playoffs. Bombed out of that event before playoffs, but it's like, okay, that kind of gets a pass. It was online as well. Now you go to Rio and you look you look okay, but you have Fallen's retirement announcement and I know it wasn't on the day of their game, but that's gonna increase, you know, the emotional pressure and importance of the game. It's his last outing in br at an event in Brazil trying to lift a trophy that he's never had in his home country. I mean there's there's a lot of reasons. So I know. It feels like it feels like the vibe around that team has like kind of changed from what it was last year of being like the kind of upstart out of nowhere wrecking ball. Now they've kind of returned to the mean of just being like, Yeah, we got some good fucking players and competing on the right day. You know, on the right day, you better watch out.
speaker-0: On the right day, is there any team you think could beat Vitality? And is it just Falcons? Is it just like if all five of our players play the best they play that we've seen before? Is that the team? Is that just it? For me is that kind of the consensus? I feel like that's what most people say, right? Like ⁓ individually speaking, if you went, you know, across the board, the only team but I feel like that's kinda lame. Surely there's gotta be one more team where if they all have their best day, there's somebody else that can maybe run.
speaker-1: I got one for you.
speaker-2: Okay, here we go. I'm anti.
speaker-1: I got one for a team that might be able to beat Vitality in a series on their best day, Paravision.
speaker-0: Okay now
speaker-2: The team of literally zero.
speaker-1: No generational talents, except for perhaps motherfucking
speaker-2: That's it.
speaker-0: James. James dude. Actually no, I know. I'm with I'm with you. Let's cope. Let's
speaker-1: I'm dead serious too. I'm not even lying. I'm not gonna like I don't want I don't wanna misconstrue this. I'm not pumping this so hard to say that they are going to beat them in their next matchup, but I think if you can't have a generational talent beating these guys, what you what you have to do is go the opposite direction and just have five, four people, let's say four people who know that they should not be in the server with vitality. And because they accept and assimilate that knowledge, they lock the fuck into everything James says. They lock into every protocol, they lock into every single round, mistake-free counter-strike, sharp young aim. They're too young, inexperienced, and stupid to realize that the stove is hot. So they keep fucking touching it and coming back to the stove, coming back for more, breaking down Zaiwoo over and over again. See him smashing the desk for the first time in his career. But literally, these guys have the ability when you see them play really mistake-free counter-strike. We've never seen a leader like James and his VP team was really good at doing this. Para vision not as good yet, but I've s I feel like I've felt elements of it. I don't think there's anyone who brings a style of Counter-Strike into the game better that that makes the opponent opposing players feel uncomfortable in just about like every aspect of the game. Like playing against Jame teams is like the map is quiet when it shouldn't be. Like, you know, like you don't know what's happening, and because they're so quiet all the time, you never know what's what's going on. But you also always know they like to leave some fucking douchey lurker in some weird position on the map as well. So whenever you step out to go find that information, you just get deleted by like an off-angle that you've never seen before. Like it's it's it's weird. He has the ability to make opposing teams and players play this really uncomfortable style where I think it never lets them get into the rhythm. So it's almost like they take the opposing star players and bring them down to their level. But I genuinely think that there's an element of this paravision team on their best day. Of being able to play weird enough counter strike and making Vitality feel as uncomfortable as possible out of their rhythm and is able to match up with them in that way.
speaker-2: I think it's just so worrying seeing their last event. The PJ Bucharest was terrible from Paravision like genuinely terrible.
speaker-1: That that's the other side of the coin. But you know what? If you're gonna have a shit event, it might as well be there. Deston got what he needed to say out, you know? It feels like that.
speaker-2: They have they have a bad event and then they have a good event and then they have a really bad event and then they have another good event. Like I think that's just part of being in such a young and experienced team. But I mean some of the mistakes we were seeing from them were just crazy. Like I remember you, Jason, molding over the fact that they tried to throw a flashbang and threw a smoke instead.
speaker-0: It's like ocean. They're just big ocean fans.
speaker-1: Ha ha ha.
speaker-2: ⁓ but I think for for Paravision to beat Vitality, I just think that's so so difficult to to see happening for me right now. Like I think it'll it'll take ⁓ I think it'll take a lot longer for them to get into that form. ⁓ I don't think it's gonna even come close this season for sure.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, probably not. I just think I just think it's a really cool possibility. Like the the little downturn, like this this poor event, like I didn't like I didn't like know which which event it was gonna be, but it makes complete sense. I said this a few episodes ago on like Talking Counter, where I think this paravision team is like it's all really cool, but it's all kind of predicated right now on guys like Belchinok, ⁓ Zello, and Noda, the inexperienced kind of trio, like putting faith in like this kind of fundamental. the fundamentals and and the protocols and the style that Jam and Destan wanna play. But at a certain point, if you're these young faced kids off the streak that are just fucking popping heads and like you blow up at the major in Budapest and that just continues into the new year. You win an event, you're like living the fucking high life. Like your ego is just naturally gonna flex. Like it I don't think any of them consciously probably realize it happens, but you're gonna kind of like flex against those rules and be like, I don't have to follow all these rules because I can compete with these guys. You know, I can actually handle this guy one on one. I'm You know, I've already played a game against him and felt like I was better than him, like I was actually getting the edge on him. And that that's all it takes to kind of go away from like the mistake free counter-strike that they're that they're known for playing when they're at their best. So I think having that poor event is like a really good timing of it to snap back to where Jam and Destan get to go go back and be like, see? Like we fucking told you, you guys suck if you don't listen to it. You know, like maybe they'll pretty it up. No
speaker-2: I think they will.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think they'll be way worse than that actually.
speaker-2: Based on the interviews they give with HL T V during that event, where they come out and they're like really mad at them, highlighting all the mistakes and then Dasta and saying that we if it keeps up then we yes we'll we'll kick anyone. Like you know
speaker-0: He just said that on the couch. Yeah. He just said, Yeah, if I could cut him right now before the major I would is literally what he said.
speaker-2: So yeah, I think they will be pretty rough with them, ⁓ after
speaker-0: I think that's a you know, talking about that team, it is an interesting dilemma because you if you're James the way that he calls, you need complete and utter trust and discipline in listening to your calls for it to really work. Otherwise, you just kind of lose the ⁓ what's the uncomfortableness, right? Like if players start taking their they start having more individuality, you start now you just start kind of looking like the rest of the European teams that like how they play Counter Strike where Lot of individuals get a lot of say and get a lot of space in what they do in in their areas of of or sphere of control on the map. But that's that that's the double-edged sword, though, is as you play better with these players that are untested, is like, how do you evolve that? And you know, I I don't know the answer. I don't think that's the tricky part, is yeah, you have more success. So how do you get more confidence in these players so that they but also maintain their trust so that way you can create because really what I think they're lacking is confidence, actually, a lot of times where That's where the inconsistency and the inexperience comes from. I actually think you think it's overconfidence. I think that it might be the opposite. I think it could be that once again, like I was saying earlier, that dilemma of trying so hard to play a certain way, they kind of sometimes don't look at their crosshair enough and they're and they just kind of like mentally you just kind of lose it sometimes. Like you just you just lose your game.
speaker-1: You know, I I'll this is all speculation 'cause I don't I don't know them and haven't really spoken to any of them, but I don't know if I'd call it overconfidence. I think I'd call it more maybe misplaced confidence. You know, like I think they should have probably all the confidence in the world in their individual ability and skills. But I think they probably put too much confidence in their own decision making off the back of all the success, right? Like I think that's where maybe the the overconfidence would come from. ⁓ you know, I remember over the years of having talked talked to someone, I for I forget who it was, one of the old guard in Counter Strike, I think. ⁓ and one things we we one thing we we talked about and we used to discuss was like the concept of in counter strike like There's like stages you get as like an individual, right? As like you rise through the ranks and everything. And then the first time you play against like a professional player and team and you get your ass kicked. And then the turning point of when you realize you can compete with the individual players and teams. There's this one like fascinating thing about, I think probably any endeavor, but Counter-Strike is like you have to like learn the textbook of Counter-Strike. Like you have to grind it so much that you assimilate like the Counter-Strike foundational textbook. And then you have to get so good that you've mastered it. And then you have to get so good that you know when you don't have to fucking listen to the textbook anymore. And that's like that those are the pro players, those guys who like reach that third step, you know, who are like, I know, I know what the right decision is, but I also know I have no like, yeah, I I also know that I'm able to like branch out of the fundamental be based off Who's dead, where my teammate is, what the situation is. Like this is a moment where I have the opportunity to be that individual player. And I think there's probably too many of those moments for the younger guys where that fucking instinct kicks in, you know?
speaker-2: Yeah, I think we ⁓ we had a chance a couple of years ago at the p in the blast Paris major, and I think this was a a good memory of mine from events where we had simple there and we were just having a conversation with him and we said, It seems like sometimes you find the way to a round win that no one else could possibly even think was the on the table. ⁓ he just says that yeah, like that just you you always find the the percentage chance to win the round and like just from playing so much and like The way he thinks about the game, obviously, it unlocks a pathway to a round win that like n you wouldn't be able to figure out if you play textbook counter strike. There's a certain level where that you have to have the ability to take that risk that somehow unlocks the opening to get into the round again. and obviously when you have the skill of simple, like more often than not, that did work out. But like for a lot of other players, you know, they'll go and try and do that and and then it'll lead to that'll ⁓ that mistake will cause a domino effect to happen and the whole round collapses off of it. But ⁓ I mean you there's a certain balance I think you have to strike between being willing to do something that makes you different and why you're there in that seat and then also like playing by the book. ⁓ I think it's quite a hard balance to strike strike.
speaker-1: This is also why we always said never watch Simple if you wanna learn how to play Counter Strike.
speaker-0: Watch device, don't watch simple. That's that's the number one rule. Yeah.
speaker-1: Simple was just like it's actually not cool enough for me to just destroy you and beat you on stage. I have to do it in a way that entertains the crowd like they've never been entertained before. And I mean it's been the fun of Simple. Yeah, but like it has also bit him in the ass plenty of times too, you know, like we don't really talk about those moments as well. I think you know, if I was honest with you, I'd say that clutch attempt on Mirage against Ents at Katavitza twenty nineteen. ⁓ yeah, absolutely the famous one going back for that kill.
speaker-2: Knife attempt for example.
speaker-0: The knife attempted.
speaker-1: That's not the optimal weird. But that's why we love the guy. You know, like that those moments are why we love him anyway. Dropping down off of the B rafters on cap.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Not scared. Probably has. He may need to step away. He's been like clockworked orange with all the simple highlights over the years.
speaker-2: Good. Okay. We need someone that's interding like that.
speaker-0: Been doing this a little bit, but and I won't, we won't we ⁓ we're not gonna beat the dead horse of the roster moves. All right, we're not gonna go down and say, Is this good or bad? But with what you've seen come out so far with the changes, you I'll say you can include mouse. It does not have to be this major because let's be honest, it's really hard to create any sort of narrative beyond what we've already talked about. ⁓ that's like interesting going into this major. We're unless somebody does something at Fort Worth or Atlanta that's like worth talking about leading into it. This isn't gonna change too much how we feel currently, right? For Cologne, I think that's fair to say. But w going into Singapore or just the rest of the counter strike calendar year, do you think any of these roster moves with like Mao's and Falcons actually moves the needle in any significant way?
speaker-1: Falcons, yes. Actually I mean Falcons I'll just say the only the only roster move that's come out recently that feels like it moves the needle in a significant way to make this a dangerous team for the rest of the year. ⁓ the mouse changes don't feel like they're gonna get there, don't look like they're gonna get there, but you know, maybe maybe we'll get surprised. But I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say that that's gonna happen. ⁓ the phase changes look even worse.
speaker-2: That to me that's temporary. To me that's just like we need to hold this until after the major and that we need a team to go to a tournament, so we'll just sign these guys. I don't think
speaker-1: Well one thing one thing one that went under the under the radar and I'm not saying this as a criticism because I actually like him is N NKJ was announced as coach and that didn't get a whole lot of attention to it, I think, because there was so much other like scene destroying news going around at the time. ⁓ but that that surprised me seeing him kind of brought on as the coach. He'd coached big in the past, I know that. ⁓ and I think he had Sprout maybe been with ⁓ he was with Ents recently But he's never I don't think he's ever had like a full coaching job of a team as high profile as this, with the expectations of this. And also managing coming out of rock bottom as your team of superstar ego players has fallen apart. You know, like I I think like It's nothing against him. I d like I don't wanna be critical. I've I've liked his work in the past. I thought he was a good analyst, especially in a good coach over at Big. I remember that's when I w I was most following his his track and his journey. but this is gonna be a really tough task for someone who's just kind of not really experienced at this level. I would say ⁓ you have about as much experience as you could get, you know, no one's gonna have more, I guess, in a way.
speaker-2: Well, I think we were hearing like rumors coming out of FaZe that they wanted to go for a coach that was more like structured and would build the system for the team for the future. That doesn't really work with Kerrigan. So I think it was good that Kerrigan's got to go. I think for FaZe, this I think there's a comparison slightly to be made with maybe like Astralis, where it's you know, this is a team that had all the legacy and then it gets stripped down to nothing and now this is like a new team and that sort of had a a breath of fresh air blown into the team, right? The expectations are kind of out the window. If you have expectations for this phase team, I think you're just crazy. Like there's just nothing here that suggests that you should have any expectations of them. So hope the players are certainly going to put pressure on their own shoulders, but there isn't as much outside pressure, I don't think, looking at this team and expecting them to perform. I wouldn't be surprised if FaZe come last at the next tournament, for example. But ⁓ I think there's a certain relief that comes from that. But I also think this is just ⁓ if if FaZe are willing to spend more money, I think this has to be just ⁓ a stop gap until we finally get you know, players available and they can rebuild the team properly. Like this is just ⁓ shit, we signed up for a bunch of tournaments. We don't really want to take the fines or pull out. Let's put players in the spots and see what we can do. ⁓
speaker-1: I'm I'm gonna put myself on a limb and potentially make myself sound very stupid here for a second. Just because I don't I don't necessarily like fully have the full you know, like the VRS is still an entity that that sometimes throws throws a curveball at me. But I remember having this conversation before like maybe like two weeks ago, and I made the argument that FaZe should wait until after the major to make a roster change because you'd have a bigger pool of player, bigger list of people who'd be available, more conversations could be had, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the counterargument was made to me, which I actually came around to and agreed with to a certain extent, was that it the best time to make sweeping changes is right now because you want to start getting points at these next events for the next season of the VRS. And I was like, okay, that's a fair point. Let's rock and roll. But now FaZe has found like the middle ground where they're making the changes now, but they're using a stand in who's not going to be permanent. And I guess that could affect VRS down the stre I don't you that's where I'm kinda like and then you have to have those considerations, right?
speaker-2: Surely FaZe are a team that just ⁓ that want to actually have like a team that has some element of excitement around them and some big names. Like they always have been. ⁓ a team that have done that. You know, obviously they've taken risks down the in the past, you know, with Brokey coming to the team first of all. Like he wasn't ⁓ a big name or anything, and it worked out. But for this when you look at this team, it just doesn't look like a team that should be under phase. You know, they've got some players in there like, okay, but you know, how are you going to keep People like twists and f and and frozen, like how are you gonna keep these players like at all interested in staying with phase if this is what you're gonna present day after day? I just don't see it happening. ⁓ and then from the mal side of things, I just literally I feel like this doesn't change anything. Like if anything, I feel like it might just get worse. So I I don't think Mao's with their roster change really. ⁓ it doesn't excite me at all, to be honest. Just s it's either the same or it's worse.
speaker-0: Yeah. With ⁓
speaker-1: I like having JL back. He's fun.
speaker-2: Right.
speaker-0: He's fun. He's fun. He's fun. I don't know. The phase thing is ⁓ I I'm of the the I you know, you say there's no pressure. I think there's actually this is why it's so weird to me. I feel like there's more pressure for phase. I know that players might not see it this way, but the organization should. You have basically these are your last two tier one events that you're gonna play. This is it. Like, because you there so I'm still trying to understand VRS too. I got a lot of people around me that Tell me things that are a lot smarter than me. And I keep them around for my events. So that way I know what the fuck I'm doing. But from my understanding, this is it. Like these are their last two invites. They're out of the invite window. They're gonna have to start grinding out Draculans, Imperial, like Roman cups. You're not gonna see them again in an ESL event. Like there's no way there's literally if they do not perform well at either one of these events, they are not going to be in a tier one event that you guys are casting. Until the major, if they have unless they have a good run. That but if they were to actually perform well at these, this will help them build their VRS back up. They're not in the major either. Like this is so bad. They are going to they're gonna be at a point where it would literally maybe just be easier to blow up the entire roster than it would be to keep these players.
speaker-1: Honestly, it it might actually be at some point come to it. Because I know like especially the grind back up from those events and having to potentially like I mean I don't know what it's gonna all entail, but having if you ever have to play like an online qualifier for someone like Twists and Frozen and Brooky who have played in the big stages on LAN, that's gonna make them wanna you know jump out of the window.
speaker-2: And I don't think ⁓ they
speaker-1: A little appetizer.
speaker-0: And they and they lost in the finals, like that could have secured like it's not this is to me, this is like actually the most important time. I agree with your take that you're gonna have more potential players available after the major. But like also at the same time, I think the landscape that's not necessarily true. I think that used to be true.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think it used to be true. I think with the VRS now, that's changed it. And that was my mistake originally. And that was why I came around to the other line of thinking of like, ⁓ actually, okay, tonight tonight right now is the best time to do it. Yeah. I just thought there'd be a little bit more of like something that felt like a more of a cohesive plan. Yeah.
speaker-0: Blockbuster moves.
speaker-2: If they do go down the path of actually like rebuilding, blowing up the roster and like redoing it all, I mean, waiting if you are going to do that, then waiting after the major is the right idea. You know, like because then you will have extra players available to restart a roster and grind your way up and with a team you actually believe can eventually do some damage. You know, if you have a great team as well, ⁓ you can fly through those tier two tournaments, you know. Like if you if we see that some of these teams, like Hunter Thieves, or a team I'm expecting to see a little bit more next season. You know, if you if you want You get a team like FaZe, you get good players in there. You're like, okay, the unfortunate thing is I know you could be playing at a way bigger ⁓ team right now, but if you come to FaZe, you know, and perform the incentive is you get into the qualification process and eventually next season is when things start taking off and you have to view it as a player if you're gonna join ⁓ as a long term project with phase. And I do think there's enough history and enough talent obviously still on phase to attract some bigger names down line.
speaker-1: Yes, ⁓
speaker-0: I don't agree. I ⁓ just real quick before I don't agree because I think if you after the major, if frozen gets really upset with what's going on and leaves or like twist wants to leave, if you lose frozen or twist, you have no leverage. I'm sorry, no one's gonna care to come to phase if you don't have twist or frozen, which is why once again kind of I think it's panic time. Like and I I think you should be And I've seen a few of the clips. I won't lie, like I haven't watched Kyson's stream, the one of the guys that's like, you know, had like very outspoken for the phase esports side of things over there. So, but I see some of the clips and I feel like you could, and I'm not blaming him, but you can start to see some of the frustration coming out from with the situation where before it was like, Yeah, we let our players do what they need to do, like we don't want people here that are unhappy. That's cool and all, but you also have to look out for yourself. And I feel like that not I feel like FaZe maybe not have looked at You know, looked out for themselves enough. And I think they're now in this situation where they really need to pedal to the metal and like get somebody in there. They need to be aggressive, like right now, because you're not gonna get a top ten rifler in the world that you're just gonna buy out at the end of this major. That's not happening. You have two of them already. You need to go get young talent aggressively right now, while people still respect Frozen and Twists on this roster and want to play with them. Because if you lose either one of them, you're buying power, you're gonna have to spend more. People are gonna be less willing to join your team. The the road back isn't gonna feel good. Like you're it it it all just kind of falls apart if they don't make some sort of run here to me, like or if they don't get players now. The idea that they just like, you know, stable the or just like you know stabilize the ship for a little bit and ride it out and hope to see what happens after the major is how it should like that's how it used to work. And I think that that's gone. They need to be aggressive at all times. There's no sitting on your ass with VRS. You just you might as well just blow up the roster and start again.
speaker-2: And I think you also, you know, being nice to your players that you have on your team now, I think that has to slightly go out the window too. It's like a professional sense. You're going, ⁓ nope, frozen and twist, you're both under contract. We're gonna have to hold you here for not for our business. ⁓ to to try and have some leverage, as you're saying. But you know, you mentioned ship, and ⁓ and I have this image of of FaZe as a sinking ship. And I just think if you know the adage of the captain should go down with the ship. I love how Carrigan, this the ship is just sunk sinking, he jumps off, he gets rescued by a yacht, you know, like he's just on the super yacht right now. With the boys, the rest of his teammates are at the bottom of the ocean, and ⁓ he's managed to get onto the super yacht with all the the famous celebrities. It's sick.
speaker-1: Fuck your ship. Goat of all time IGL candidates on the first boat out. Yeah. Fucking pack ⁓ in to the women and children from Have you did you see that documentary they just released of like the closing events? No, I didn't I didn't. That team was that team was fucking that team was in a rough place, man. Rough place. I don't I don't fault Kerrigan for that whatsoever. Like I don't know. I don't
speaker-0: ⁓ I'm sure I blame him, but I'm also not gonna blame the other players if they're a bit bitter. You know what I mean? It's like both sides. So But but we we should about mouths though, no? So we don't go too far down the phase rabbit.
speaker-1: Well let me let me transition us two mouse through the phase rabbit. It'll turn it into a wormhole. It'll go out the other fucking side. yeah, 'cause if I mean I just pulled this up on on HLTV, like the the free agents of like free agents and bench players ranking filter from top thirty teams, ⁓ and just going down the list of who is available. I'm surprised. I guess it's kind of telling in a way that this trade to bring Kerrigan to Falcons wasn't a trade to also bring Kixon
speaker-0: Happy with it.
speaker-1: To FaZe, knowing that they're replacing an IGL. So apparently just straight up not wanting him whatsoever. But Brolin now benched, Jimmy now benched on Mause. Wrinkle benched on NIP if you want to experiment with an Oper. where else are we gonna go down? Holzirk is out there in the world if you want to go that route. Lux is an interesting IGL from Legacy if you wanted to go that route. Like you'd actually there's actually not a great amount of like experienced talent. Waiting to be picked up. Magisk is down there, Dexter's down there, but that's gotta be Visa issues. So that's a sticky situation to try to get behind. Other than that, most of the guys you're gonna find are just like still kind of like in the unproven territory. So my transition in the wormhole we take over to Mouse is Berlin and Jimmy are there. If you're phasing you wanna make a fast move, you've got Berlin and Jimmy. Now, for them being removed from Mao's not Not necessarily the direction I would have personally gone, however, obviously not involved in the team whatsoever. ⁓ this is just an interesting move to now go to another change where you're bringing another player who's never IGL'd into the role and saying, What can you bring us?
speaker-0: Yeah, I I actually like
speaker-1: Except you have the additional factor of your old IGL coming back onto the team for the major.
speaker-0: Yeah, that so the timing of the move I think is dog shit. I don't know what's going 'cause that to me, like like what there the how the the ⁓ what's it, the order of operations of how they did everything, terrible. This just feels like half baked, you rushed it. It's like you thought this would be something you might want to do, but you're like, ⁓ fuck it, what if we just do it now? Like, ⁓ fuck, wait, we can't do that now. Well, we already did it. That's kind of what this feels like. But
speaker-1: Just just so the viewers get it too, it was Brolin and Jimmy benched, if for some reason you don't know. JL brought in on loan as a trial run and Zex promoted up from the Academy team. ⁓ and then JL steps out for the major and Brolin steps back in for the major. That's the fun we're having over at Miles.
speaker-2: No. And ⁓ exertion gonna be in game leading, so Yeah, everyone's got their talk.
speaker-1: He's got a dog fucking gone. First first episode's gone fucking great.
speaker-2: That could be the n maybe that's the name of the podcast.
speaker-0: I got dogs and I got guy with leaf blower right now.
speaker-2: ⁓ I hear the leaf blower too, yeah. Dogs and hammers. I think, yeah, for for mouse, the the fact yeah, th I think you raised a great point. It's like, okay, cool, making making moves, definitely needed. The time that they make the moves and the kind of moves they make, seem like a very it's a very long term project and you're going into the most important event of the year coming up here, so
speaker-1: It's honestly it's one of those moves where I want to just talk to someone on the team and just be like, hey man, let's have a chat. I got a little glass of whiskey, you got a little glass of whiskey, let's have a drink and just chat. Give me your thought process. Show me some logic. I just want to see your work, you know? Like where where was the th where was the brain going in this in this kind of conversation? I don't I don't necessarily hate it.
speaker-2: What happened here?
speaker-1: I don't really know how I feel about it 'cause I grew to be just so apathetic about Mals over the past few events.
speaker-0: You just feel bad for all the
speaker-1: I don't know the logic behind it.
speaker-2: No.
speaker-0: I got it. I do. Yeah. Tell me something. Leaf Blower's gone. This is our time. Okay. Yeah. I think it was painfully obvious when they removed Shure and they brought in Brolin and why it actually looked good for a second is because I don't think Brolin's a bad eye jail necessarily, but he's there more so to just be the voice that like steers the ship and is maybe even the emotional rock of the team to make sure it doesn't sway too much, is what it felt like for me outside looking in. And this is kind of confirmed a little bit longer, which is ⁓ Xershin and Torji are the callers. They just are. They're building all the rounds. They have been building all the rounds, I think, since Shuhei's been there, which is why Shuhei, I don't think, actually has been looking incredibly strong. I think the way that Torji and Xershin both activate in rounds also basically snowballed many of their rounds, which is why it looked great in groups and bad in playoffs when Xershin would play poorly, and when Torji started having his falloff as well. So Xercian and Torji were really to me. The voices of Mouse. And then really, they just had a guy that kind of was, I don't want like I do think they had more impact, but it's hard to know what they did and didn't do ⁓ outside looking in. But it any the the ESL ⁓ production really confirmed this for me, which is like every time there's a tactical timeout, you see Coach Yapin and you see Xershin Torgi, Zershin, Torji, Zersh, and Torji on both sides. Both sides, it's always those two. And you can see Brolin is like he'll he'll add at the end. So, but those two are building the rounds, which isn't abnormal because your entry and your Oper have a lot of impact and voice in the team. Normally, some teams it varies, but it's very clear that those two have like extra voice in those teams. So Xershin becoming the IGL, I think, is actually the natural progression for that team. ⁓ and I think individually speaking, the way that he plays ⁓ like really lends itself to that. So if they can have this Academy kid who when he came up, he impressed me like with his raw mechanics, like in general. ⁓ I can see it. Like I can see what they're trying to do. How they got there is fucking terrible. I don't know because this feels like something that they've thought about when when I look at the roster and I'm I'm working my way down. But the Jimmy move felt a little forced, but I guess that's kind of how they just felt like it had to ha happen. Cause Thanks has been playing so well. It felt like Jimmy was more of a we just have to move off of him because we need something to to make up for what we're losing in Zerchin, rather than Jimmy being so bad. But I do think his individual level fell off. So it made it less if it it felt less shitty to do now compared to like last year if they wanted to do something like that.
speaker-1: I'll tell you the weird thing with Jimmy was I actually felt like ⁓ when did it happen? I actually thought Jimmy's contract extension felt very for
speaker-2: It was after twenty twenty four after Rio when the rumors
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. And then he's been linked to like vitality once or twice as well, like over the different like
speaker-2: Man, he really should have got on that yacht.
speaker-1: Well, yeah, it might be regretting that one now. But I think more than anything, I think if yeah if you're like Maliz and he's flirted with it twice, I think it's an easy and natural place to go if you're the GM of like, you know, this guy has kind of been half in, half out regardless, and you know, let's just do it now. ⁓ yeah, I don't know. The exertion w what what makes me feel un part of what makes me feel uneasy about this move or just like kind of looking at it with like a weird side glance is I'm kinda like, I don't know what I'm supposed to think right now because my counter strike experience My Counter-Strike experience tells me I'm supposed to be thinking that a move like this is them saying, Exertion isn't really delivering for us in the roles that we have him in, but we really like ⁓ and we wanna and we wanna have him on the team. So let's see if he can IGL. And like I phrased it kind of like a dick to be to be on like on purpose.
speaker-0: Kind what they did with Brolin though too, right? Is that kinda I mean same same energy I would say. And and with Shue. That's kind of been like
speaker-1: Bro, the Brolin one came like what, like a month after he joined the team or something. So it was so fast that like I didn't I didn't necessarily care. I like, ⁓ he's the brand new guy anyways. But like this one is kinda like we realize that you you the change in your play from group stage to playoffs is detrimental to us being able to perform in the playoffs. The playmaking disappears from your position in the playoffs, but we like you. And you've been around, you know, since we were an academy team, so Here's IGL since the last guy's not exactly doing anything crazy to begin. You know, like that's what that's what my counter strike experience tells me to say. And I and I want to be wrong, you know, cause that just sucks.
speaker-2: And I think part of that as well, you can understand why they would think that. I mean, this is a guy who every interview we have with him, he seems very articulate. You know, he's can speak well, he can translate his thoughts very well to to other people. And I think obviously a great skill to have. You know, I would if I took Brolin and I took exertion and I had them talk to them for a bit, I would a hundred percent say that I would rather have exertion as the in-game leader based on like if you didn't know them. but you know, I thought there was no way in which Brolin was going to be capable of in game leading a team for as long as he did. performed decently for as long as he did. ⁓ when that first happened and Shui left, I was like, Broolin just isn't an IGL. Like if we heard this guy speak for more than a minute straight, like it just hasn't happened. ⁓ so I I think for exertion at least he'll be very communicative. ⁓ I can see why they think he's gonna be capable of doing it. and every time we listen to the listens ins and the columns, like he's definitely him and Torres your app in the whole time. So yeah, I mean that he's not gonna be alone in that department for sure.
speaker-1: I'll tell you what though, there's there's a world in which there's a decent upswing of events from this mouse team with this change. I don't know if it I don't think it'll last, but
speaker-0: After the mood rooms?
speaker-1: No, I think I think it would probably I think if it's gonna hit it would be the events leading into the major and then the major would probably get a little bit of love from other no no, well, 'cause I'm assuming when Berlin comes back, exertion is still gonna be calling. I'm assuming my reason for thinking this is because exertion is like typically a guy who wants to be an entry playmaking frontline kind of a guy. And if you make that your IGL, he's the go signal. Like so he's his own go and s go signal all of a sudden, right? Like and I think there's
speaker-0: No, you're saying
speaker-1: a short term benefit in the transition you can get where an IGL can make it like in especially in that position, can call around himself and what he wants to do as the opener, you know?
speaker-0: Yeah. So I think ⁓ what's interesting is we haven't even talked about jail. Do you guys think that's gonna stick? I I mean it's hard to talk about it. You think like he's just there? Like or you think he's actually standing or
speaker-2: I think if you if you bring up Yim Pat and you say like he's half in, half out from Maus' organization, I think JL's half in, half out on Counter Strike being a player, like actually making this a job, right? Like I I don't know. the fact he leaves Navi to go and be a streamer and content creator, he's tried being on the desk. I think he probably missed the competitive side, like he played for with Liquid for that one event. It wasn't awful. But I mean you're gonna get JL coming back into ⁓ a team that has You you make a roster move think hoping that it's gonna take you to the level. Mals are a team that make the playoffs over and over again. So the next level is winning trophies. You know, you bring a player who hasn't played. ⁓ I mean that's not really necessarily a a winning condition, is it? Like you're bringing JL trying to bring him back. I don't even know if he has that much aura really, but he's got a fucking No, he's got aura.
speaker-0: Come on. Listen to that camera, I'm gonna go.
speaker-2: Right, right. You know personality and aura, but what I mean is like the aura that's gonna win you the the g the whole trophy to win you the events, you don't think he's that kind of player that just
speaker-1: Right. He did it for Navi for a year.
speaker-2: Yeah, but Novi had the ⁓ Alexi B.
speaker-1: No no no no no. Watch some of them highlights. JL was the man providing the impact round when it was needed. That
speaker-2: He definitely adds personality to this team and and definitely has impact potential, but he's been out of the game for a while. ⁓ I've I'm just doubtful that this is gonna be the move. I'm not doubting JL's a person or a player like overall, but I just think I I doubt the move fixing Maus and making them
speaker-0: Yeah, I I'll pick it up with you but
speaker-1: I hope it does. I wouldn't mind if it does.
speaker-2: I mean it'd be good. I'm not saying that I'm like I really hope my
speaker-0: I'm surprised FaZe wasn't you know he's been looking to come back. Like maybe it's just ridiculous.
speaker-1: No, I mean He's unfortunate because of the way he was so admirably open and honest stepping away from the game and the competition to go be a streamer, that's gonna follow him for whatever if he wants to step back. You just have to prove that mentally you're gonna be there for the competition. Otherwise, and by the way, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I wouldn't fucking hate it. Like ⁓ JL just turns into the fucking streamer stand in. Yeah, you know, like
speaker-2: Attached to you.
speaker-0: Hey, that's contact.
speaker-1: Which is not a bad way to make a living. Just being a journeyman, fucking professional Just being like the fucking hustler in the fucking countryside going from
speaker-2: I ⁓ will play
speaker-0: Streamer for higher.
speaker-2: Probably scratches competitive itch as well and without the f long term commitment.
speaker-1: I don't I don't hate it. I don't hate it. As long as he keeps up the skills. But here's a fun question for you. Who's gonna have the better major? ⁓ no, Jay L's not gonna be there. Sorry.
speaker-2: Brolin.
speaker-0: Yes, we
speaker-1: No no no, I was gonna say fur. Because furs come out of fucking left field to play in the major as well.
speaker-0: Holy shit. I forgot about that. That's a mess too, man. What the fuck? It's funny. ⁓
speaker-1: No I don't want to go into it. I don't know any of the details. I've heard a couple of things. I don't want to go into it.
speaker-0: You just see really vague posted shit that just seems all cryptic as hell and it's like, you know, maybe I just stay away from
speaker-2: No, it's so funny that Fur is replacing Phelps. Like that's just it's just the funniest thing. Like these two are just forever entangled in some way, one way or another. Like we
speaker-0: Check the date on the post. Did somebody shit post and retweet like an old update or something? ⁓
speaker-1: Dude, I get caught by those all the time. Fuck those people.
speaker-0: I bet you do. Most of the strikes me as the type to be up at like four AM, see some news, like, holy shit, really? And then he's making his coffee and like an hour later, he's like, son of a bitch.
speaker-2: I bet you saw for the AI videos. Well to be fair, Jason, we are living in a world where you can't really believe anything. They you you see you don't know which one's a meme and which one's a
speaker-1: Well, that's happened many times.
speaker-0: I we don't even know if you two are real or if I'm real. Like could this all be fake?
speaker-1: The worst is now I don't trust anything at all. I don't even retweet anyone's shit. I'm like, nope.
speaker-2: That's good. That's a good way to be Living in in permanent chronic distrust is a great way to be, Jason.
speaker-0: I've never burned you, Jason. I've only paid you. Yeah. Yeah, yet. Give me give me time. Give me time.
speaker-1: Yep, I know. You're gonna hit the fucking Hall of Fame.
speaker-0: ⁓ man, we're gonna go big. I think that's a good spot though. I think that's nice. We can we can have a drink and talk about more stuff maybe in person and and maybe brainstorm the next one of these. You guys feeling good about that? Yeah, we'll get we'll get drunk and like write down some ideas that we forget about in like two weeks and be like, ⁓ yeah, that was a terrible idea.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's perfect. When we revisit it'll be fucking sweet. Are you in Dallas for the whole thing or just the playoffs?
speaker-2: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-0: I will be leaving the middle of the game's Thursday. So I'm gonna be co streaming and I just leave during a co stream and I'm gonna fly and then I land Thursday night and then I'll be there Friday, which apparently my co streaming setup is right next to the stage, which I'm not actually thrilled about. Well we
speaker-2: We'll be there every day until the final.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, well yeah, Jason's buying. That's what I heard.
speaker-2: Always buy.
speaker-1: Okay, I'll put it on the talking counter credit card.
speaker-0: ⁓ hell yeah. Yeah yeah. We don't have what we don't have a name yet, so you can't put it on our card.
speaker-1: No, we we gotta make do for now.
speaker-0: Yeah, well ⁓ no, wait, don't keep the receipts. Don't keep the You're gonna actually my manager's like what the fuck happened? Like I bought the entire bar, you know, everything and Jason ⁓ no. He'll be there too, so actually we could just put on his ⁓ yeah yeah yeah wait, yeah, you're addicted now, right?
speaker-1: First. The infinite old fashioned deals.
speaker-2: Bring your magic cards let's play some magic. Dude, you don't even want to know how many I bought last night. It was it was
speaker-0: I'll bring ⁓ I'll bring like a level two or three spell slinger is it and we'll get we'll get weird. I'll I'll I'll try to wombo combo somebody and just make them hate themselves. Yeah, that's it's
speaker-2: Okay. That's what Jason does, so
speaker-1: Do make them hate themselves.
speaker-1: I think just another podcast is pretty good. It's a is a really nice starting point for a title. I think we just get right into Just Another CS podcast. There's a lot of ⁓ now. We're we're entering territory. Yeah.
speaker-0: Another Counter Strike podcast. ⁓ so we'll get right into it though. So we'll ⁓ we'll rip right into it. I don't care how Jason's doing. Dinko's stuck in Jason's basement.
speaker-2: Yeah, he's locked me up in his basement. But at least I've got a microphone and
speaker-1: You guys make it sound a lot more weird than it has to sound. I'm just gonna throw
speaker-0: When we did the testing of like these little photos, I don't know if Chris has any of these saved. Dinko literally looks like he's trapped in your basement 'cause he didn't have a light on. He looked like he was grounded, like talk about
speaker-1: Well, I can't help it if the man wants to live in the darkness. I don't know what to do about that. There's there's six lights installed in that room. Actually I think there's eight lights in that room.
speaker-2: Yeah, I turned one of them on and it's pretty bright, so I'll take it. Also, yesterday in Michigan was sunny today. It's back to grey skies, Jason. We had one one good day.
speaker-1: Yep, just like Ireland.
speaker-0: Yeah. It might it might make a small appearance, so we could have fun with it anyway. Do you ⁓ would you like to share with the class about what's going on in the background, Jason?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-2: Okay. Started again.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I'm wearing noise cancelling headphones. I should turn that off. Yeah, I have a leak in my roof, so we have some guys here to repair it. I'm just surprised they're still here. You know? ⁓ that's it. So
speaker-0: Have you considered making Dinko like pay for your stay by just doing like handyman work in your house? Like make Dinko do it?
speaker-2: It would take way longer and there would be a lot more issues, but
speaker-1: With certain things I'd be fine with it, with him climbing onto my roof and taking out, you know, roofing portions. I d I don't know if I'm gonna give that one.
speaker-2: We could give it a go and we could maybe, you know, get a camera out there, Jason. That could be good content.
speaker-1: Perfect.
speaker-0: Perfect content. That's what we always everyone loves that. IRL stream it. Jason Moses O'Toole with the IRL Twitch stream of home improvement with Dinko just following around. That'd be that'd work.
speaker-1: It was a great T V show in the nineties, that's all I'm gonna say. ⁓ you know, I'm happy to follow up in that
speaker-2: I wasn't even around then, so
speaker-0: Fucking Christ. I always forget Dinko is not yeah, okay, that's right. Yeah, it's it's grandpa grandson casting. That's right. Grandpa Grandson
speaker-2: Yeah. Legit. Well, what have you been up to, Flaun since Flawm Line? We got to I think it's been pretty fun, like starting the year doing the Flom Line and then going out. I came in like so hyped about North American teams and I was like gassing them up to everybody, like actually no, they're gonna be sick this time. I actually feel good about NRG. And then Pearlie comes along like, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, maybe not. Maybe there's
speaker-2: Next next one. Next one they got it. But I think it's been cool. It's been a n it was a nice way to start the year, honestly. So
speaker-1: The OC supremacy hype to fall off at the start this year was was very shocking roller coaster to be on. That's one of those like streaming plummets. Not like shocking that it occurred, just like shocking in terms of the harshness of it. Wasn't shocking to me. Might have been shocking to other people.
speaker-0: What are you trying to say? You they're not shocking what you is this reminding of Coost all over again?
speaker-1: You can't believe that one's still around. But no no it doesn't not not quite coosa levels, but it it's like ⁓ I don't know. It was just like another it's like we've seen we've seen it all play out before. Maybe there is a little bit of cooster.
speaker-0: The the North American script of operas is what you're saying. Man, why you gotta say God w we're trying to be uplifting here. You just immediately brought it back down to reality. No, that you're fine. There's no nobody's taking out your roof right now. But No, it was it was fun. I mean, it obviously I'm biased. The event was fun. I decided that ⁓ you know, I l I lost enough money on the first one, why not do it again? Yeah. So we're doing the second one. and I don't know. I
speaker-1: Missed the timing of the mute.
speaker-0: I had a good time. I think for the scene it's good. It was cool to see these players like playing a little bit of stage. But yeah, I'm sorry, Dinko. Like I did that to you where you now are in the same trap as the rest of us. We're like, wow, they actually can play Counter-Strike, but then they see a European name on the scoreboard and it's just like Yeah, okay, maybe not. Maybe we just, you know, pump the brakes a little bit here and see what we got. ⁓ so I'm sorry. I did that to you. That's kinda like my thing. ⁓ you know
speaker-2: That's okay. I'm I'm ready to do it all over again. So I I I'm down for the ride. It I think I think for NRG though, I still have a little bit of faith in them. I mean they took a map off Furia, ⁓ at Blast Rotterdam. So, you know, that that's gotta be a a positive step in the right direction. We're not expecting them to beat all these top teams, but the fact you're taking a map off them in competitive series here and there. I think that's the best we can really hope for. And I think that's what we seen c and we spoke to to Nitro about earlier this year. But it is kind of the best what we could hope for. I I I'm sad to say, but it's
speaker-0: It's just already in the bin. We s we're like two seconds in. It's really great. Everything went really well. We just hope they get one singular map. Like And they did Which was which is great job guys. I mean I guess with what liquid's doing, yeah, you're not wrong. Like might as well just get like one map. Like let's just start somewhere.
speaker-2: They're Yeah, became America's since the last you know, Flawm Lance. That was good. They they actually are America's team again.
speaker-1: Are either of you ready to admit that Team Liquid is the best North American team?
speaker-0: No, what the fuck? How did you do that?
speaker-1: I just wanna I just wanted to know if either of you think that Team Liquid's the best American team.
speaker-0: No, no, absolutely not. I I'd actually I'd say NOG. I and I'd actually take ⁓ A D. I'd take both of them over Liquid. Genuinely, they played a best of three right now. You put ⁓ in the server right now. I think Liquid loses to both of them, yes.
speaker-1: Who's better than him?
speaker-2: I I think I think Lick I actually think Liquid are probably the best team. ⁓ which is kinda worse. So I I know I look at you know, that's pretty it tells you everything you really need to know. I mean they're not a great team right now, but ⁓ I d sadly I do think they they without pressure
speaker-0: Just with just with just without pressure. When do they not play with pressure? What is exactly
speaker-2: Exactly. But that's what I that's what I'm putting the scenario in. It's like if if we put Liquid and ⁓ eighty into like a deciding game going into the group into the playoffs, I think Team Liquid would wouldn't that. Like I just feel like if you put it into a really important matchup, I feel like just the stakes of you know the ego surely comes out from a liege. The the experience from some of these players really pops off. The skill ceilings higher, I think, on Team Liquid than any of the other squads. So I do feel like if you put it into crunch time, ⁓ if it's a non pressure game, I think these other teams could beat Liquid. But I think if it's a deciding group stage game going into the playoffs, I think Team Liquid beat them and I think that's where I would then make Team Liquid the best North American team.
speaker-0: Fuck no. Hell no. They couldn't even play themselves into the major. They shitter lucked their way in, man. They did it. They literally Alicia's own words, he's like, it doesn't even feel like we made the major because they just had to win and they couldn't even do that. Like they they had the pressure. They had the synaph way to put the bar high. We're talking about NA here, not clown car. Well, actually they're
speaker-1: However you gotta get to the major. You get you get to the major.
speaker-0: I didn't say they didn't make it fair and square. I'm just w back to the who's the best NA team and then saying they're gonna turn up under the pressure. They had a little bit of pressure to qualify for the major and they crumbled.
speaker-2: Pressure against North American teams in the context specifically against other North American
speaker-0: I think. Yeah. I just don't think they have the same fear like like ⁓ the other teams don't. Liquid used to be the big brother that would come back and beat the shit out of the little brother and be like, yeah, yeah, I'm still liquid and you're still who you are. I think that's gone. I think they've lost that within the region for sure. Like that that like you're not gonna you're not gonna you're not gonna start like struck ⁓ eighty or energy. In fact They are probably so excited to see you over anybody else consider what they you normally have to play against. I would take both those teams in a heartbeat over Liquid. And the big part is I still don't know what Liquid is. I don't know, like, do they want to win with a liege? Like, it doesn't really feel like it. Do they want to win with like incredible mid-rounding and like trying to manipulate what the other team No, it doesn't really feel like that. Are you trying to just brute force teams with mulbs and a liege? It doesn't feel like. That either and ultimate is a once in every 10-map wonder. So I don't really know how they're like, I know when I watch M80, if Lake has a good game, I know they're gonna win that game. Like, not like if he plays strong, now that doesn't mean they're gonna beat Liquid or something, but I know what that team is about. When I watch MRG play, I I feel like the same thing. Like when I see like Grim have his his thing, and I feel like O C actually has a strong map and Sonic is actually just super stable. I don't know. I Sonic is actually super underrated in my opinion. I I like what they bring where I don't know what Liquid wants to do to actually win the game. I don't know if they even know.
speaker-1: I don't I don't either yet, and I I don't think they do either. And I agree with everything you said, but I still think they would beat NRG more often than not in series play. MAD MAD is a a different question. But I think they would still I think I think they'd still have the edge on NRG. I think ⁓ as the hammers go wild, I I think that I actually think MAD could could challenge Liquid more often than not, but I think it's a product of Liquid's own like struggles. I think, you know, if you had a mobs who was playing his best and a leash who was playing his best, NAF playing his best, ⁓ You know, and even even Ultimate playing seventy percent, I think they're gonna be able to handle MD without too many issues. And this is all very generally speaking, but I actually just think the ceiling is so much higher. I think Liquid is its own its own worst enemy at the moment, and it's been that way for a while. And yeah, they haven't found an identity. These changes and disagreements and ⁓ you know, probably wasn't fucking Sunshine and Roses at the end of Twist tenure. We know it wasn't. Probably wasn't Sunshine and Roses just before Nerds left as well. ⁓ Shuhei coming in, there's a new coach in the team also. So I think I think they're just struggling to get a grip of it. But I mean that's not to excuse anything. I mean I don't know if they're gonna fix it. But I think they're still better than at least NRG.
speaker-2: I just think back to March and the the pro league ⁓ game that we had, whereas it's like the last game of the group stages a one-two game, Team Liquid versus ⁓ eighty. ⁓ I mean, this is a Team Liquid that already knew that Nerds was leaving the team right after the event. They were it was online. You were dealing with a bunch of, you know, chaos over there and Team Liquid. This was ⁓ this should have been a game ⁓ eighty go into and just think that they're taking it all day long. You know, you're going up against a team that are against the ropes, a team you're familiar with. And Euro team that's actually been together for a while, start of the year's been positive. All signs are looking good for ⁓ A D. ⁓ and they come into that, they lose their map pick thirteen three and they go on to lose the series to liquid. Yes, it was competitive throughout the rest of the game, but
speaker-1: Online counter strike Zinco.
speaker-2: I love that.
speaker-0: Have you looked at when they played at Lan where Dracula for Liquids when it when it was for Liquids major spot? You know, did you see how they played? It's a good point. It's a good point. They fucking crumbled. They fucking crumbled. They looked like dick. They were so bad. I just didn't quite
speaker-2: I just think when they ⁓ figure it out with mobs, like th I think that just is such an early game in this roster's history that you know hopefully I'll give them a little bit of leeway there. But
speaker-1: guess I'd have I guess I'd have M80 as the best North American team, but I actually don't think I think it's so fucking close. Like I d I actually don't think it's I don't think there's any level of like ⁓ excessive
speaker-2: I think liquid have a big swing. Like they could swing and there could be a massive upside. What like if they figure it out. That's my insight.
speaker-1: ⁓ The only problem with that is we felt that swing coming for like a year now. I'm still waiting for the fucking swing.
speaker-0: That's yes. That's that's what I'm saying.
speaker-1: We ⁓ we know it's there. We they we know the pieces are there, but where is it?
speaker-0: it never comes, then it's just is it's like when somebody tells you about potential for the fiftieth fucking time. If it's unrealized potential, no one gives a shit. Like at some point you have to realize the potential.
speaker-1: Yeah, so there's a short window of opportunity with potential before we have to start calling it something else, which is I guess just failure.
speaker-0: But the problem is with Liquid is how many times do we sit here and we're like, yeah, this roster on paper is pretty good. Like, I agree with everything you guys said when you're like when you go down the list, I don't dislike the roster. I love that they got mules. Mulves is like one of my favorite players. I love watching Mulves play. But even Mul Mulves Mulves embodies Liquid before he got to Liquid in the worst ways, which is He was doing great on G2. They brought him in. He was super comfy. He was having a a great time. And then they were like, Nico's leaving. Can you just be Nico? And that man's confidence has been he's never been the same since. He's not been the same.
speaker-1: He got he got fucking coosted.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, he did. They just just be just be Nico forehead is basically what they said. He couldn't do it. And then he completely spiraled. And he's never really like he's had like his moments where you see mobs again. But it he I feel like that's liquid to a tease. Like all these things kind of like this should work or could work or it looks good. And like these people have these potential, but then they always fall short, and then they get in their own head, and then things just spiral. Like everybody knows what they're supp what they're capable of, but when they don't achieve it immediately, they just start to It it just becomes overbearing.
speaker-1: I think also you have this like situation too where you have someone on this liquid rust. Have someone on this liquid roster in Alige who's like just who's got like the Nico talents, the Nico game understanding, the Nico abilities, but he's not like a mentor figure in the way Nico is. You know, he like he doesn't have that. Nico over the last few years has really developed like, let me take this guy under my wing. You know, Mobbs has been there, Monasy's been there. He's kind of developed that sort of attitude within his squads. Allige Allege doesn't have that. So it's you're playing with something equally good and equally as much of a star, but He's probably not like pulling you in and being like, All right, let's figure this shit out together quite the same way.
speaker-2: You really hammered that one home, Jason. I do appreciate that point. ⁓ Thank you. I think you know, you look earlier in the year as well with with Molves and the interviews he was giving, it's like, I'm trying to think about the game like Nico did. It's like the reason that Nico is like a phenomenon so much like above all other players, you know, within that top echelon of of great players is because he thinks about the game naturally, some in ways that other players just won't. So everyone's trying to think about the game the way Nico thinks about it. And like Newsflash, everyone's trying that and have been trying it for a long time. And I think
speaker-1: Yeah, thank you.
speaker-2: The the thing for Mulves, I'm glad to see when he's joined Team Liquid is like, okay, I'm actually done trying to emulate Nico and trying to be like Nico. It's time to to be Molps. ⁓ so I I do think, you know, he's a great player. I liked watching him in G two when he first joined the team. And ⁓ I do think steadily he's just had more and more inconsistent games. But Molves is a very talented player, and I think once he gets out of that mental funk, I mean he's not going into the greatest team for ⁓ getting out of a mental funk, I have to say. He's
speaker-1: Liquid's kind of kings of the mental funks. Yeah. You know, it's kind of ⁓ you you enter a mental funk as soon as you step in a strict cut starting lineup. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. Speaking from experience for sure. ⁓ absolutely.
speaker-2: Speaking of experience, Jason.
speaker-1: Yeah. It's a weird one. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It'll be ⁓ that's why I like events like like FML are fun, like Frag are fun, is like seeing some of the NA teams go up against each other. I'd I'd love to see like just a an event where like these teams just like get a fucking slog against each other, like two best of threes apiece getting through a fucking group stage. I think that'd be great to have them all just fucking duke it out.
speaker-2: I think
speaker-0: Running it back in September, so you'll get that. You'll get that. You'll get you'll get what you're asked for.
speaker-2: Can't wait for that. That's gonna be sick. But I think another one to look at is like we talked about who's the best North American team, who's the best North American player right now, is the other side of things. No, is it is it twists or elite?
speaker-1: I don't care about this debate. I d I I don't care in any way. ⁓ It's not worth speaking about. It's not worth talking about.
speaker-0: Why? It's like yeah. Nope. Nope. Best player on the fiftieth best team in the world.
speaker-1: Just don't care.
speaker-0: He said Twist too, like Twist doesn't disown the the North American scene based. I feel like he hates us. He's like, Yeah, like I guess I'm Canadian, like whatever. He's actually
speaker-1: Actually I'd prefer to give this record back to a different North American.
speaker-0: That's what it feels like. Sometimes, dude, come on, man. Like you're really good. Help us out. Well, I think that's I've actually only seen him get like that one other time. That was there was like a visceral response.
speaker-2: I I will not answer this question.
speaker-0: I've done this before I'm out. He's like, I'm sick of this shit, shut up, we're moving on
speaker-1: J is cause I'm so ti I'm so tired of watching Mongolian players pop up out of nowhere and kick the shit out of the international scene. Where are our Mongolians? We have one and he hasn't joined a team yet.
speaker-2: No Christ is holding. Yeah what did happen with no cries?
speaker-1: How is it possible that none of our players have popped off international?
speaker-0: I'm gonna actually host FML in Mongolia and then get players' citizenship back. What do we think?
speaker-2: Flom's Mongolian land. I'm with it. F ⁓ also works.
speaker-1: Honest question though, when was the last Ed A player pop off that was like the prodigal son actually showed up?
speaker-2: Toys.
speaker-0: I mean I'd say molves, actually. Like probably.
speaker-1: Sure, it but kind of a bittersweet now that it's been so short lived.
speaker-0: Well, yeah, I mean w he beat the shit out of Nico so bad that Nico's like, please play on that team and then join the team and then he had a good Yeah.
speaker-1: We're But now it's gone.
speaker-0: Yeah, so well not everybody can be Zywood and Donk, Jason. So we gotta take what we can get, you know? I mean, you know, for the the the shitty thing is you're absolutely right, is the Mongolians are like, yeah, Sensu, we don't really know what happened over there, but like Sensu he's out, and then they're just like, But like Cobrazera's pretty good, and also I don't know, we just have world class opera that used to play Dota, so he's pretty good too, and we're just gonna kinda own everybody. So I guess what you mean, they just kind of show up to a fucking land cafe, I guess, and they just have world class Like world class players sitting around ready to fry. I don't know.
speaker-2: I mean I went to Mongolia one year ago today and I went to those land centers. and it is like a farm of Counter Strike players, dude. Like you go we went to a bar and you know, we're just gonna go grab a drink and on the way up, everything's like a multi story building. So like floor one you go in, it's like a business district, floor two is Korean barbecue, floor three is a counter strike cafe and then karaoke's on the top floor, so kinda has everything you really need. ⁓
speaker-1: Really?
speaker-0: You progress through life. You go to work, you eat, you play Counter Strike, then you get drunk and sing.
speaker-2: Exactly. It's kind of one floor for every hour that passes on. So, ⁓ we went in there and it's just like maybe three hundred to four hundred PCs just all stacked up one in a row and it's just people playing Counter Strike all day. ⁓ and you know, most of them are very young, you know, teenagers. So I think the Mongols obviously did a great job at, you know, popularizing it and everybody kind of aspires to to go and try and be like the Mongols. But it's just the amount of how how Counter Strike is part of culture in Mongolia. I just don't think it's the same, ⁓ vast culture here in America. There's too many things to enjoy here in America. So there's a lot more distractions. No.
speaker-0: ⁓ he actually kinda nailed that one. I really don't know what to say to that. Yeah. So what he's saying is I need to create I need to create a North American Counter-Strike farm of peace.
speaker-2: Of teenagers with a karaoke bar upstairs.
speaker-0: Just get on my power and a sponsor. We'll have like six hundred people. Instead of hosting lands, we just have them play I don't know, DreamHack, I guess? NA DreamHack? But like all the time
speaker-1: You need you need a you need to build like a Rocky montage of Counter Strike, like a just a facility that you run them through the Rocky montage of training Counter-Strike. Just one by one.
speaker-0: You think people coming up these days are gonna know about Rocky? I th I don't think they're gonna
speaker-1: No, but they'll get into the montage. You know, like no one can resist a good montage.
speaker-0: Showing.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: I'm gonna try to run up the stairs and probably pass out halfway through.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'll watch that. I'm in. And if you slap it up to some of that old school Lincoln Park like the Frag movies were, it'd be even better. You know, Crystal Method in there, get some of the old tunes going.
speaker-2: Ha ha ha.
speaker-0: This could save the the you you nailed it. This could save North American Counter-Strike right now. I think we're missing a Rocky montage fixes all of our
speaker-1: Genuinely and this is no joke, this is one of my least discussed opinions in public, but I think actually if we started making frag movies and like event highlight frag movies to rock music instead of EDM, I think it would c take Counter Strike to a whole new level. And I'm not fucking joking about that. I'm dead serious. God damn it.
speaker-2: I'm just waiting for them to come. I'm literally ready for them to come through the ceiling and just collapse behind you, Jason.
speaker-0: You get amped up.
speaker-1: Dead serious. It'll create a whole new atmosphere in this scene. Create a whole new tone for the game.
speaker-2: ⁓ we're missing.
speaker-0: I saying that you just threw shade at Chris, ⁓ who's producing right now, 'cause he did make a frag movie for F ⁓ L and he did use E D ⁓ So Chris, this is actually a direct insult at you. It's not
speaker-1: Directed at you into the world that you happen to be a part of as well.
speaker-2: Just people like you.
speaker-0: Well, don't blame him. It's because we can't use any of that music and monetize it. Or we just get we get nuked into oblivion.
speaker-2: I think we look at people like ⁓ you know, the musicians, Jason really I think you should call out all ⁓ musicians because they're just not making very good copyright free rock music. So
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: I bet there's some. I bet we haven't explored it.
speaker-0: We need some good divorced dad rock to really get a nice rag movie too. Just like pop off. That'd be that'd go crazy. That'd be insane. Okay, okay. We've actually derailed. I'm a host. We got it. We're ⁓
speaker-1: Divorce dad rock music. That's a f
speaker-2: There's a Segway available somewhere.
speaker-0: I know when I said divorce dad rock, I like wait a second, I need to I need to reel some back So wait, well we've we've beaten the North American dead horse I think. We got ra Rocky montage, rock music needs to come back, and we need to Yeah, and Tris hates us and that's okay 'cause
speaker-2: He's coming back to America with FaZe to play at Blast Fort Worth ⁓ the Rivals event. ⁓ so you know, at least he's returning in that way. But they're not gonna be very competitive whatsoever, so they'll probably not make the arena.
speaker-0: Damn. Sh shit. Well well wait. Okay, so we just skip this topic then? Like
speaker-2: I think you look at the teams going to Blast Fort Worth, it's and Vitality, Navi, Furia, Astralis, Foot, G2, FaZe and Gamer Legion.
speaker-0: So Yeah. I like it. Yeah, you really said those last two the appropriate way. That was good. Yeah. I ⁓ I mean I you know what this this event just is a little bittersweet because I just hate the timing of it with the VRS stuff. I think I told Jason this when we were call on where we were yapping the other day where I I hope all the events kind of do a closer cutoff. Cause I just think ⁓ you know, from like ⁓ from I I watch all the games, you know, despite all the co-streaming changes, they didn't really affect me because I just never turn off the stream because I'm an addict anyway. ⁓ I I just I I wish that this event was like the cutoff was closer, not so FaZe could be in the major. They'd probably bomb out even harder, let's be honest. ⁓ but like it just sucks because if we're gonna be after the major and then we're gonna start talking about Singapore and then you're gonna have to backtrack.
speaker-2: We definitely can't strike.
speaker-0: You're gonna have to backtrack before this upcoming major cologne and then think about blast in terms of the VRS and the implications of this event. And that kind of sucks. I don't I don't like that. That just ⁓ it like this is I this should be such a hype event, but for me, I I'm looking forward to the matchups. But this is like let's just see, I guess, who's in best form for the major vitality, even if they lose, I don't really care. but let's just see who's gonna be second.
speaker-1: You just put it you just put it right there. Everything from now to the major is gathering evidence to see if anyone can increase our faith that they can compete with vitality. Every event from here on is su is pr praying that some other team shows us a sign that they're making the steps to get closer to competing with Vitality. And nothing else really matters because as you said, even if Vitality don't win this event, we don't care. Even if Vitality don't win in Atlanta, we don't care. You know, like None of it truly unless they like bomb out in last place with some severe critical issues, it won't even be a talking point. So, you know, someone else needs to show us something, or else, you know, that's just what made up to the major is.
speaker-2: I really hope it's foot. I really have enjoyed watching them. I think
speaker-1: ⁓ you sweet summer child. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: Yes, he's good.
speaker-2: They're not gonna they're not gonna challenge vitality, sure. But ⁓ but I think them showing that if they could get to another final, I think that would be really impressive, you know, if they're beating up on the rest because we lost phase ⁓ as the most entertaining team in Counter Strike. And now I think for for me or the team I enjoy watching the most. So I think I'm I'm glad to see them onto the to come out of the world stage this season. I think the fact they were obviously lifting a trophy at the last event and and PGL, Bucharest, and you know, getting closer and closer to that and it's sort of seeing this progression, I think this would be a great time to do it. You know, you're already qualified for the major, ⁓ you're gonna be in a good form going into it. If you can make it to a final, I think it'll be really, really impressive for a foot. And I think that's a fun story to follow at this
speaker-1: What's your high point expectation for foot at the major?
speaker-2: High point, ⁓ quarter final.
speaker-1: What do you what do you okay, so you're saying best best you'd expect out of them at the majors a quarter final? Yeah. It's not bad. I mean, yeah.
speaker-2: And I think if they got some experience playing in front of a crowd, then I would actually feel a lot better about their chances maybe for Yeah, but that's very small. I think this'll be cool 'cause the Dickies Arena is cool, ⁓ venue in in Fort Worth. So I think that'll be cool. And the American crowd is always super loud and and passionate. I think they could get everyone is going to hate Vitality, right? So you're going to get the American crowd on your side, no matter who's going up against
speaker-1: Not a little bit in Stockholm. ⁓ Everyone's gonna hate Apex. Yes. It's gonna be a lot of fuck you Apexes. That's gonna be like a permanent fixture in the Vitality games.
speaker-0: That's all we got going on in North America is we got we got fuck you Apex. Yeah, it's a g it's a solid one. I think ⁓ I agree with you. I think Foot is probably the most entertaining team in Counter Strike. I kinda like how you put that. I will say one team I the good news with the blast event is we're only missing one team that I feel like is contending for number two right now. Like the the best of the rest kings, which is yeah, Navi Spirit, and then I had I I will or sorry, not Navi. Yeah, Navi, Spirit, Furia, Astralis, which I don't know if you guys agree with that or not. And then Foot. And those are kind of like the teams to me that are the most interesting right now. And then I kind of like put in like a power ranking where I'd put probably Navi is the best between those, then Foot. Then I'd actually probably take Astralis over Furia right now. We'll see. We'll see. Molodoy is really scaring the shit out of me right now. So then I'd probably ⁓ wait, no. No, I forgot Spirit. I'm looking at the blast event right now and I just fucking s fucked up my order. Probably like Navi Spirit. Like those are probably the two that I think have the closest chance of beating a vitality. But then when you get the matchups against the rest of them, I don't know. It's a clusterfuck. I think it's just. ⁓
speaker-2: It's just unfortunate, it's hard to see anybody at this event beating Vitality.
speaker-0: Yeah. No, I yeah I know, I know, I know. I'm just saying like best of the rest though. Like I think Navi is probably the best of the rest. their map pool is actually pretty decent. Mikaze finally looks like you know, I was I was starting to kind of write off Mikaze, I'll just be brutally honest. I was kinda like everybody's been hyping him up, but I didn't like see it for a while. Yeah, now I'm like now I'm like, okay, I understand I understand now. Like it it took a while. I'd say it literally took like Probably four months, maybe a little bit longer. And now that he's playing well, you can see the rest of it's like when JL played well, which is, you know, an easy comparison to make and easy to understand. But having that player that can be that X factor unlocks bit in the lurk. And ⁓ it allows Wonderful to play post plants better, which is where they want him to be. It allows Emma to not feel as stressed to force openings, right? Like it it's Mikaze playing so much stronger has made Navi. I don't want to say dangerous. Yeah, I don't want to say that they're gonna beat Vitality, but I do feel like they're the firm number two right now. Yeah. But I think Spirit is kind of sneaky at the moment where everybody's kind of down on Magic's calling and it went really rough and it's been really poorly. But they still have Don Kenshiro. They look at how decent, like, or honestly, look at how good Spirit now that Tenir shot well. And then
speaker-1: Yeah. Like Donk played one of his worst games of his career back in Stockholm in the pro league final or then he played the next worst game in his career just like last week against was it Red Kinids or something that he had like the worst map of his career?
speaker-2: Yes, it's right.
speaker-0: You're saying donk's fallen off? You think that's you think that's
speaker-1: I'm just saying if you're gonna point to Donk as ⁓ a reason to keep hoping him, I'm gonna say that he's having a he's having a few more inconsistencies pop up here and there. And granted he said he was sick ⁓ at the previous. Yeah, it's like take from it what you will. But you know, he's shown I think his first two years were so crazy, people generally started believing that like he was like w another one of those like ⁓ just immortal players who never has bad games.
speaker-2: He didn't.
speaker-1: ⁓ I think a lot of people thought that that kind of like baseline that he established over his first two years was something that was just gonna be kept up because we hadn't seen it done in two years. So I think yeah, I mean he's he's time to have like it's time for him to have like a downshift, you know, where you'd think like you can't keep up that pace surely for like the entirety of things. Especially So now it's like can you can you outlast the downshift? If he is gonna have like a rough stretch, what do you look like for the first time in two years? Let's see what you look like if Donk isn't this overwhelmingly dominant player inside the server. Yeah, I think it's a cool test for the team.
speaker-2: He's kept him competitive, he's kept him in the conversation at the top of the world. But I think when you look at a team like Vitality, the reason they're so good they have Zywu, obviously. But then you look at everyone else and it's like Rops is inc incredible, Apex is the best performing IGL right now, Mezi's great at his role, Flanes is great at his role. I mean, there's literally no weak link. Whereas when you look at Team Spirit, yes, you have one huge outlier, an overperformer in his role and Donk. And Shiro's a Oper, but can be a bit inconsistent. But like you don't you're not gonna say that Magic's is a good IGL, he's just started doing it. There's like so many reasons as to why Spirit I don't even see how they could all figure even if they figured it all out, right, and started like playing well, they still wouldn't match every single department that vitality have.
speaker-1: They have they have like a similar a similar issue as like Team Liquid, where you look at this roster and know that like the past like three events you've been watching have been underperforming for what this roster should be able to output. And it's one of those things where it looks so ugly, but you know if they put it together it's gonna go from looking ugly to looking like really good. Like the turnaround's gonna happen really fast if slash when they figure it out. And I think this this event was a good turnaround where it felt like they figured something out part of the way through. And they went from dropping a map to Red Kinids and being like, what the fuck is up with Spirit to then destroying fucking everybody on the path to the grand finals. And that was like a great bucket of cold water to get hit in the face with, like from his from from watching Spirit, in the sense that Pro League was disappointing. The last like two outings had been disappointing. Didn't really know what to think. All the upheaval. Halley's not there. Everything around the team has been pretty negative for like a good six weeks up until this last event. So I think people people are ready to get back to being excited about spirit because the player quality and what we've seen them do in the past already makes us feel like it can get back there very quickly.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I just think that you to to really dumb it down, I feel like you need a generational talent to be able to deal with vitality. You need that's that has to be your starting point. That's why I actually don't think I don't think that's why I think that's literally why Navi's gonna always struggle, like to consistently beat vitality. I mean, you can even hear when Blade does like an interview, is like he's like, We need to hypnotize them. You know what I mean? Like he's joking, but like he knows that when you they're built in similar ways and vitality is just better across the board when you go down Like in every single position, where I feel like that outlier that you guys are talking about with Donk, I am one of those delusional motherfuckers that thinks maybe that is Donk's normality. I mean, we're talking about him being down right now, and he is literally the second best player in the world, and it's not even close.
speaker-1: Flum, did you did you jump on the overhyped bandwagon of calling Donk the goat last year? Do you remember there was that stretch of time where people were already crowning him the goat? I'm happy to hear that.
speaker-0: No, I know. But I do think I do I would tell you that individually I think Donk was better than Zaiwu last year. But I also understand why Zaiwu had to win best player of the year, if that makes sense. Because I think at a certain point achievements do have to matter. But if I think if I watched a demo of either one and somebody said which player is better, I would tell you Donk. And if you just remove nameplates. If I just watch the game and I just said wow and I'm watching it without any context and I see Who is playing what, I would have probably picked dog. And I'm trying to be honest with myself without knowing. But then I'm not trying to start that whole debate. I'm not. I'm just telling you why I felt that way. So when I go back to the I know he was revved up, I could see it. But I think when it comes to spirit, that's why I like them being able to maybe potentially take vitality. Where if Magics can get his shit together, which is hard to do. I'm not really I I'm one of those people where I think it's gonna take a lot more time with magics. I'm not saying they need to
speaker-2: Yeah, Jason, go on.
speaker-0: Do it now, but if there is gonna be a team, I think over time, if they mature into this, and if Tanier can reproduce what he just did at the last event, this is a team that truly can like if Magic grows into being a leader more for that team, and actually I would say as corny as this sounds, some of the interviews that he gives now as the IGL are more mature than what he did before. And I know, like, you know, you could like his old interviews before, you could say the bar isn't high, whatever. But you can tell that he's like ⁓ he's taking responsibility more for what's happening with the team. He actually explained what went wrong in the games after when when they lost, where previously he would just like brush it off as like a meme. Where now it's like he's kind of getting into what he thinks went wrong. You can hear him breaking down the game. And to me, I almost see that as him taking accountability for what's going on in the team and taking on that role. So if he can do that and continue to build himself and allow his players to play, he literally has one of the best operas in the world on his team. He has undeniably the best rifler, like pure rifler on his team. And if Tanier can get back to that form where we saw him in heroic, even just close to it, this team goes from something where we're like, yeah, they're kind of just like wishy washy, top five team, and they rely on Donk to okay, they're firm number two. And I think they would start beating Navi. in a lot of scenarios because of what I just said, where I would take dunk over Mikaze and then like over over anybody, right? That's why you need like one of those players. You need like a dunk, you need a monasy to really when the game gets crazy, you need that.
speaker-1: Here's ⁓ here's my question because I'm one of those people that you would probably label the ⁓ Magic's doubter, but it's not so much doubting Magics himself as much as doubting like this this team I feel like is aiming to win majors now. So it's kind of more doubting the timeline or questioning the timeline.
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, well yeah, co well, I mean Overdrive said two years, which was which was fucking crazy. I think someone from Vitality came out or ⁓ you know, I shouldn't say that. ⁓ some some other pro player came out and said they expected probably to take like within a year, magic, so it'll kind of get to a point where he he becomes stronger IGL. But so so you say they're gonna be able to compete, you think down the road when all that develops, but it's like, okay, well ⁓ are you expecting that development to hit at the major? What like this team is gonna compete with them down the road, but probably not at the major.
speaker-2: Would we agree that would we agree that this last event was their best event yet with Magics as the in-game leader?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, it's that's not even close.
speaker-2: Then the question becomes, you know, this is an event without Halley at the event. You know, what what does that mean for the team? You know, you don't have your coach and suddenly, you know, this is the best event where you've looked looked the best. And then your next event's coming up is Stana. If they look better even there, you know, starting to question, you know, would Magic's maybe benefit with the coaching change coming in? There's a there's a lot of great minds in Counter Strike to speak Russian. Like you can get a great there's a lot of options to g if you want to move in a different direction there.
speaker-1: I think I think changing out Holly would be really, really premature. I think that'd actually be really bad for Spirit. I I'd I would be very hesitant to do that if if I were them. So I mean I don't know what they're thinking and considering but and what that situation is as well. But I think that'd be an overreaction to a point where I think you're gonna want Holly's experience down the road, ⁓ especially with the new IGL ⁓ in the mix. ⁓ but ⁓ certainly, I mean, that'll be something to keep track of as they go on. But I think the I had a point that I think I just lost that I was gonna say right before I got sidetracked into the other point. ⁓ Yep, someone else start talking.
speaker-0: Alright, I got you. I'm gonna get it back. You're you're premature for Hallie leaving, maybe? Magic's ideals and Okay, okay. I was trying to backtrack a little bit to help you. Alright, we won't help him. Fuck it.
speaker-2: That's all good. We can just move on and maybe I'll come back to him.
speaker-0: Well no, I do think ⁓ just to build on what it I think it is premature to for the Holly thing.
speaker-1: He's got it. ⁓ I think ⁓ we have to realize too, let's be honest about what Spirit did at this event, because it was their best result. It was their best performance with Tanier, it was their best result with Magics as the IGL. But it was also one of those events where I think they'd they'd hit a slew of like rock bottom. And I think what kind of worked out for them eventually was that upset l map loss to Red Kinids, where that just pisses everyone off so much, and you go out and have that conversation and say, Why the fuck is everyone playing like pussies? Can we stop can we stop doing this? Can we actually play Counter Strike? And then you go in and you steamroll them in that game because you're not thinking anymore. You're just swinging. Someone said, These guys suck. Take the fights. We don't need to think about this. And then they did that. And they steamrolled. And then they just carried that confidence into the next game, into the next game, into the next game. So yeah, I think tactically they showed improvements. And obviously when you start playing better individually, you get more into the groove of the team elements of the game as well. But, you know, let's see if this was a flash in the pan, you know, for a positive. So like they could still crumble at the next event, which would be which would suck.
speaker-0: No, yeah. I I completely agree. I'm a bit of a psychopath. I thought this before their before their run. That's like that's why I feel com I was saying this after Pro League. 'Cause I don't know. I just I I feel like they have too much talent on that roster not to be relevant as like the closest team. If Tanir can get online, like that's a big if. I know we hadn't seen that, but I just
speaker-1: Sure.
speaker-0: Dude, he's too good. You watch this guy play, like it's clearly just a mental thing. Just get out of your own fucking way. And I think that plays into your point, which is somebody just went out there and was like, fuck it, run it down. And it you know what it is, in my opinion, is when I think about what caused that over like over analytical game plan is probably Magic's IGLing. It's probably Halley trying to p fucking boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, cram a bunch of things with magics, and they're trying to do all these things all at once, and everybody's trying to like play what they're talking about, right? They talk about their boot camp for the first time. Everybody's practicing and like trying to play a certain way instead of just playing. And I think that once they take a L to K ⁓ Kenid's, like you you're just like, nah, fuck it. We don't care. And but they start playing about with everything that they talked about. But now there's like this intent to just like play the game rather than think about the game. And I think that happens a lot with newer teams. It's actually This is gonna go back to NA here, but I think it's actually why Alis teams struggle a lot. ⁓ which is yes, because Alish is such an analytical guy. If you've ever talked to a cat like Counter-Strike with Alige, he is such ⁓ like he has a reason for everything. He's min-maxed every single like scenario in his head, but when he starts like bringing that to other people, they don't all think that way. And I think it overwhelms a lot of people. And I'm saying Like I see that a lot in Counter Strike. It's not like a liege. It's not just spirit. I think when there's like this, this is what we should do. And we have all these systems in place and all these protocols, you just forget to play. You're just you're you're trying to like play like by the by the book so much that you you forget your own identity in the process and you forget how you were supposed what you were supposed to be doing. That's why I Tanir is sucked in spirit the entire time. It's why I think that they've struggled so much to bring in magics. I think that they try to like instill this. This is how we're supposed to play and they forget who they are in the process and then they they can't get it back sometimes.
speaker-1: Yeah, you lose an individual identity because you're no longer thinking the way that you would think intuitively, you're thinking the way you've been told to think. So it just takes more time to click in.
speaker-2: bring it back to foot and why I think they're so enjoyable to watch. They're not trying to play like anybody else. They're playing like foot, right? And ⁓ I think the fact that they've stuck together for so long and Kerbeni is so confident in the way that they play. I mean, we were just constantly saying, you know, we've seen teams come up playing a little bit like Foot in the past. And then they eventually get figured out and they just slow down right away. But I think Foot have a little bit more to their game and I just love that the the way they do approach Counter Strike. So I think that's gotten them so far just playing Counter Strike that they're comfortable with. You know, even when they go into the big games, you see them go down. I remember this pro league game against Miles where they're just getting wrecked on dust too and they come back into it. ⁓ and I think that's definitely something that has helped foot is just the fact that this is a team who just play their style of counter-strike unapologetically.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I mean they're they're they play They play good counter strike. It's it's very rough around the edges, right? Like they don't do anything like mind blowing. They end up throwing a lot away away a lot of rounds too. They make tons mistakes. Yeah, yeah. And I mean that that happens I mean to even to the best teams, but it's certainly a team of this experience level, and as they're going in, you can see the kind of roughness to the game. But I think that that's also what makes it so much fun. Is like yeah, they are just I mean, they're gonna make a mistake, but they're gonna make it, you know, going a hundred and ten percent through the fucking wall while they make the mistake and they're gonna smile while doing it. So yeah, they're they're Cool team to watch, but I'll be honest, ⁓ there's only one. There's one extremely interesting team at at Dallas, at Blast Rivals, and that's G2. I think they're far more interesting than any other team at this event. Because I think no other team at this event has a chance of beating Vitality. I think G2 is one of One of I think two teams I'm gonna say has a decent chance to beat Vitality.
speaker-2: What's the other one?
speaker-0: He's gonna say Fay.
speaker-1: You want me to drop this? ⁓
speaker-2: Yeah, go for it.
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-2: That I was about to get I was like, Okay, well,
speaker-1: We'll do that I'll think this is the Dallas segment. Next one's the Who's Gonna Beat Vitality segment. We'll get into
speaker-2: Bro, we need to we need to start calling it Fort Worth. Otherwise Fort Worth locals are gonna hate you, Jason. I was I'm just gonna say it. People I seen people walking around Barbecue Place the other day wearing We Are Not Dallas T shirts. This is just on a random evening. Like they're gonna they're gonna get you one. It's gonna I'm
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: You know, I was gonna correct him, but I I I'm not from there, so I was like, Yeah, but you know, Dinko's in the area a little bit more, so he's a little bit more in tune with what's going on.
speaker-1: But it's good to do that just to segment my brain away from IEM Dallas.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Last four four three. Yeah, that'll be good.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, I think G2 is probably for me the most exciting team in this group because I wanna ⁓ you know, you wanna talk about another kind of new guy switching into IGL position, Hunter, ⁓ and how well he's able to play. And I I think how well he can gear this team and how well he's stepped into that role. Again, another IGL who's not yet showing us anything like mind blowing. He's not like blowing our socks off strategically the way he moves the team around the map, but he calls good counter strike and he's got good players. The nerds reuniting, ⁓ Over with ⁓ with with Saw standing behind him as a coach, I think is huge with Sunpaeus as well, who I think is still showing signs of being able to get back to his previous peak. Heavigod, I think, is going to be a generational talent ⁓ that you wanted Flam. I think at some point in his career we're gonna be talking about him that way. Probably more in the vein of like a Rops where he's just like so good at so many things and so well rounded. That, you know, it's not gonna be like a simple kind of a conversation. It'll be more like this guy's just fucking amazing at everything he touches. And Mattis has been about a million times better than I expected when G two picked him up. So I actually think this team has a ton of talent behind it. I think they have one of the best coaches in Counter Strike. I think Saw's gonna get a lot of flowers or I hope he gets a lot of flowers as this G two team continues to get better and better. But you've re cited re reunited him with one of them what, he was rookie of the year three years ago and then got that liquid funk, you know? But we don't need
speaker-0: Yeah, the classic.
speaker-1: So yeah, I think this G2 team is actually like sneakily and quietly geared up. And this didn't factor into my my thought process, but just as an aside, I think Hunter blowing out his fucking ankle and missing an event is maybe one of the best things that could have happened. Like giving giving an IGL, like after like he's had like his like first year of doing it and like kind of stepping into the role, just giving him the extra week to breathe and like Honestly, when you're on these teams and going and playing event to invent and trying to improve the team and prepare for opponents and practicing and doing your own individual prep and just trying to live as a human being occasionally, like you don't have all the fucking time in the world. So that like one extra week off where you don't have to travel to the event and don't get stuck into the day-to-day event grind of like match preparation and you can take like a step back and look more big picture holistically at how things have been going. Dude, that's that's so that's such a fucking gift. That's such a gift in this scene at the moment to have that come up like right before the major. I think it's like ⁓ I mean it's obviously not gonna be the fucking difference between winning and fucking losing the entire major and lifting the trophy, but I think it's a huge benefit to be able to like have that reset mode before you go take the deep plunge of the major.
speaker-0: Not honestly, that was hold on wait, hold on. Let me just wow, that was great. That was great. Yeah, this is you're no no, you were you were going there, you were spitting, you're going crazy. I I really like the G2 roster. I mean, I will say that my own side. No, I do. I do like the roster. It it kind of feels like they're an afterthought a lot of the time because we just really haven't seen them too much right now. And then obviously when we would have seen them, they didn't have Hunter, so it's kind of like
speaker-1: It feels like they've taken more of a slow burn strategy since most of these changes like since they've made the roster changes, we haven't seen them too much and at nothing like crazy high profile if I recall, right? Like they
speaker-0: No, they haven't planned. They just at yeah, they were just at the Imperiums and the Stake ⁓
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, that's what I mean. Like you know, well there it's it's gonna get overshadowed by, you know, I am Rio going on. You know you know what I mean? Like they played it, yeah, stake, radio popular, Roman Imperium, B C G mas like they've yeah, they've just kind of been chilling in like the smaller grind, ⁓ getting some experience. So I think it's kind of a cool cool tactic to like have that that quiet sort of a grind before things begin once you've already qualified and getting the roster up to date and like easing into it.
speaker-2: It's like a comedian doing jokes to smaller venues before the big show.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, test test knowledge. Because
speaker-2: These events are full of really cool ideas and cool teams. Like the the likes of ⁓ you know tier two teams come up with new strats and ideas and new pieces of utility more so because like you were just saying, ⁓ the the teams who are at the tier one level never get time to go home, right? So you you see if so many teams actually start lagging behind a a new meta that's kind of developing in tier two, because they're just playing online whole time, right? So I've heard and spoke to teams who play tier two teams, like okay, we actually steal utility from these guys and ideas from these guys. So I think it's quite cool for G2 to actually go to some of these like tier two events as well, ⁓ and get a taste of the level down there and and maybe pick a few things up going into these tier one games again. But ⁓ I do have to agree with the heavy god point as well, Jason. I think he's just gonna get better and better. It's just his career is crazy so far, you know, where he's been and what he's done. ⁓ and I think even with that mobs team, there were so many games where you're just wondering, you know, are G2 gonna lose this? And and Heavy God would save them on maps and sometimes entire series. So Yeah, it takes them takes them up a step for sure.
speaker-1: He's player's player.
speaker-0: Players, players He could play for Team Spirit someday. ⁓ wait the Dinka. Okay, Dinka. Now we're that yeah, that's it. That's could you imagine heavy god to spirit? That's how we That would that team beats Vitality.
speaker-1: Spirit. That team beats vitality. Two generational players.
speaker-2: No he also tweeted back in ⁓ twenty twenty four, for all those asking, ⁓ I am speaking Russian and we're going to speak Russian in this cloud nine team. It's been a while since Spirit Academy and Webster's. So, you know, he's he's even been in contact with this guys too. Back in there.
speaker-0: Get him get him back, dude. Get him back. G2 stumbles, get him back. Cause I I I actually love Hunter as an IGL, by the way. I wanted to say this before I could. I've always been a I always thought he should be IGL. This I also think Nico should be the IGL, but we'll we'll table that for a second. I know. Give him and Hunter Hunter was always painfully obvious. What are these players where there's certain players that play better ⁓ when they talk more and they communicate and they control more? And Hunter always seemed like the perfect fit. And then G tier management. I think they got a lot of shit for what happened with Montesty and Nico. And I think if you look at what they've done with this roster, and then when now you have a great comparison, really. Maybe not in terms of gen well, no, honestly, generational talents too. When you look at what happened with FaZe, and when you look at what happened now with G2 and how both organizations have handled their situations, like with their star players leaving in different ways, different timelines, it doesn't even feel like G2. I mean, G2 has literally won a tournament with this roster. They've won an event with Hunter as the IGL. Isn't that insane? I think they've won two. I if they wanted
speaker-1: They wanted over monas ⁓ no, they won it with monasy over falcons, wasn't it? No.
speaker-0: Well no, no, Monesty was gone and they won it without it. Let me see. They they've won an event. It like literally
speaker-2: That's London.
speaker-1: They won the event, but no I'm talking sorry, I've mixed it up. I was talking about Falcons won an event with Dexter beating Monese on G two.
speaker-0: That's
speaker-2: It was the black that was P GL Bucharest twenty twenty five. Like in the
speaker-1: And then yeah, and then it was it was the blast event af right after Hunter joined, right? It was the blast lunch.
speaker-2: It was Blast London with the G three two one.
speaker-0: And ⁓ I just want to s like so I just want to kind of give flowers to the G2 org because you really can see where I think as money gets tighter too, unless you're basically Falcons, you can really start to see where the academy teams have paid off or like good general management has started to pay off because you're really starting to see like who is picking the right players and building teams and who is just like buying things and hoping it works or just like making random signings be and they're kind of more like panic rather than like plans. And I feel like G2. You know, I was critical of them when everything went down. I'm not gonna try to sit here and I'm not gonna sit here and try to like backtrack or something like that. But I am also going to admit that they kind of know what the fuck they're doing. And they've built a great roster. I think when I think of this peak, I think you're right. I I view Heavy God, everything you said about Heavy God, I agree entirely. 100% generational talent on the way, and he would be very similar to how Rops is. I agree with that entire like lens of Heavy God of how you framed it. I think. The interesting thing though is some paias has been a bit weaker. ⁓ he is teamed up with Saw. So, you know, you would like to see a little bit more considering you feel like he should be comfortable in what they're doing. He should be knowing what he's doing at all times. He knows exactly what's needed of him. So it's a little disappointing, but he is on an uptick. And then the other thing is, is I just feel like it is entirely up to some paias and nerds for the G2 roster to be successful. I don't ⁓ I'm Dumbing it down, but when I look at this roster, I know Matty's is gonna be a little hit or miss, but he's really fucking good at what he does most of the time. He's not gonna be, he's like your Flames type. And I know Flames is having like an insane year right now, but he's very much like a Flames type. You have Heavy God, who like a like we said, we just compared to Robs. The problem is though, is you're missing you're missing a Zywoo or like, you know, not everybody's gonna be vitality, but nerds and some paias have a lot of heavy lifting to do the way that this team is built. and in terms of just overall output of frags, Maddie's is gonna be in there and and have you guys gonna be trying to close this stuff down, but like in these mo for these multi-kills, what I like in the middle of the round, who I'm gonna be seeing is like nerds and some pious a lot of the time. And I feel like I hope the liquid jersey just didn't stick to nerds, is basically what I'm trying to say. Like I I really I can see it. I can see everything that you said, but it's also I it's also like it's really hard for me to get to exactly where you are with what I've seen the individual level from both of them.
speaker-1: Pit he he's hit a one point one seven rating in twenty five maps with G two. It's good for third best on the team.
speaker-0: Yeah, I don't think like I said, I don't think he's doing bad. It's just there's when you start talking about a team, you said beat vitality. So what I'm trying to like build this up in my head, that's tough. I just see like a
speaker-1: You want to know the craziest thing about Vitality. Here's the hardest thing is I actually don't think there's a team there's not a team that I would tell you can beat Vitality in a best of five in the grand final itself. Agreed. I think if Vitality loses this major, they have to A not make the playoffs, which is probably not fucking happening. B losing the quarterfinals or C losing the semifinals, obviously. I think once you get him to a best of five, the map the map pool is too crazy for a best of five. So like one of these teams is just gonna have to beat ⁓ on the path and just say, We'll take you down in the BO three first.
speaker-2: It's really tough to see any team beating them. I think last year when Furio going through some good form, like obviously that was a team that was kind of in the conversation. ⁓ but yeah, like you like you were saying, Flam, the fact that Molodoy's dropped off is just like that team is no longer the the same team at all.
speaker-0: Man, it's sad. Yeah. That w that roster was so sick when Molador was playing as well as he was. ⁓ my god. That w like you say Foot's your favorite team. Fury was my favorite team to watch the last six months of last year.
speaker-1: That made that seem really exciting.
speaker-0: I mean you can do too. I mean and 'cause then like I mean when you just see Case Rada walking around the map playing pass
speaker-1: And fallen too.
speaker-2: And Fallen was clutching.
speaker-0: Well yeah. I'm not trying to gloss over ⁓ It's just like yeah, Molodor and Nikendra were like the fireworks for that roster and Yuri and Case Rado have always been a bit more passive players, so it it really opened up that team. Like it's kinda like when you finally get somebody that doesn't talk a lot start talking too much, and you just get to hear them talk about things like wow, you actually have thought you got lot to say. That's kinda how that team felt. It's like wow, you guys got a lot more packed into this roster than I thought before. And yeah, that so no, I sh Fury it would be so much more fun, man, if Molodoy was just honestly maybe
speaker-2: Are you ⁓ maybe that's the comparison between what you were just talking about with G2 though, Floom is the idea like look what Fury become when their AUPR drops off and isn't competing at the top level, right? Like they just become a lot more of an average team, like good, but not gonna be able to beat the top dog. So I think that's kind of similar. Like if G two, they got all the pieces. Imagine they had ⁓ an AUPR who was performing the way Molodoy was last year, then yeah, that enters the conversation of just having a really, really strong top team there. So but I think yeah, Fury and G two, I think, are pretty comparable at the moment. For for me personally.
speaker-1: I've I've G2 ahead of him, obviously, but I have my angle to it. I don't know, Furia, I don't know if the alarm bells are going off right now, but even even kind of like last year when they were hitting their peaks and it was crazy to watch, I still always got the sense that it wasn't like anything that was gonna it didn't it never felt lasting to me. I could never really put my finger on it, but it didn't feel like it was like a lasting fucking peak. so like I don't know. I I don't have alarm bells going off, but they're certainly struggling at the moment to maintain any kind of serious level. And I don't know, it's it's been a weird few months for them too, so I kind of don't really know how to analyze it. Like there's you tons of tons of shit. Like you pro league, they had Fallen, had to go back to Brazil for some personal stuff, so they couldn't even use him at the playoffs. Bombed out of that event before playoffs, but it's like, okay, that kind of gets a pass. It was online as well. Now you go to Rio and you look you look okay, but you have Fallen's retirement announcement and I know it wasn't on the day of their game, but that's gonna increase, you know, the emotional pressure and importance of the game. It's his last outing in br at an event in Brazil trying to lift a trophy that he's never had in his home country. I mean there's there's a lot of reasons. So I know. It feels like it feels like the vibe around that team has like kind of changed from what it was last year of being like the kind of upstart out of nowhere wrecking ball. Now they've kind of returned to the mean of just being like, Yeah, we got some good fucking players and competing on the right day. You know, on the right day, you better watch out.
speaker-0: On the right day, is there any team you think could beat Vitality? And is it just Falcons? Is it just like if all five of our players play the best they play that we've seen before? Is that the team? Is that just it? For me is that kind of the consensus? I feel like that's what most people say, right? Like ⁓ individually speaking, if you went, you know, across the board, the only team but I feel like that's kinda lame. Surely there's gotta be one more team where if they all have their best day, there's somebody else that can maybe run.
speaker-1: I got one for you.
speaker-2: Okay, here we go. I'm anti.
speaker-1: I got one for a team that might be able to beat Vitality in a series on their best day, Paravision.
speaker-0: Okay now
speaker-2: The team of literally zero.
speaker-1: No generational talents, except for perhaps motherfucking
speaker-2: That's it.
speaker-0: James. James dude. Actually no, I know. I'm with I'm with you. Let's cope. Let's
speaker-1: I'm dead serious too. I'm not even lying. I'm not gonna like I don't want I don't wanna misconstrue this. I'm not pumping this so hard to say that they are going to beat them in their next matchup, but I think if you can't have a generational talent beating these guys, what you what you have to do is go the opposite direction and just have five, four people, let's say four people who know that they should not be in the server with vitality. And because they accept and assimilate that knowledge, they lock the fuck into everything James says. They lock into every protocol, they lock into every single round, mistake-free counter-strike, sharp young aim. They're too young, inexperienced, and stupid to realize that the stove is hot. So they keep fucking touching it and coming back to the stove, coming back for more, breaking down Zaiwoo over and over again. See him smashing the desk for the first time in his career. But literally, these guys have the ability when you see them play really mistake-free counter-strike. We've never seen a leader like James and his VP team was really good at doing this. Para vision not as good yet, but I've s I feel like I've felt elements of it. I don't think there's anyone who brings a style of Counter-Strike into the game better that that makes the opponent opposing players feel uncomfortable in just about like every aspect of the game. Like playing against Jame teams is like the map is quiet when it shouldn't be. Like, you know, like you don't know what's happening, and because they're so quiet all the time, you never know what's what's going on. But you also always know they like to leave some fucking douchey lurker in some weird position on the map as well. So whenever you step out to go find that information, you just get deleted by like an off-angle that you've never seen before. Like it's it's it's weird. He has the ability to make opposing teams and players play this really uncomfortable style where I think it never lets them get into the rhythm. So it's almost like they take the opposing star players and bring them down to their level. But I genuinely think that there's an element of this paravision team on their best day. Of being able to play weird enough counter strike and making Vitality feel as uncomfortable as possible out of their rhythm and is able to match up with them in that way.
speaker-2: I think it's just so worrying seeing their last event. The PJ Bucharest was terrible from Paravision like genuinely terrible.
speaker-1: That that's the other side of the coin. But you know what? If you're gonna have a shit event, it might as well be there. Deston got what he needed to say out, you know? It feels like that.
speaker-2: They have they have a bad event and then they have a good event and then they have a really bad event and then they have another good event. Like I think that's just part of being in such a young and experienced team. But I mean some of the mistakes we were seeing from them were just crazy. Like I remember you, Jason, molding over the fact that they tried to throw a flashbang and threw a smoke instead.
speaker-0: It's like ocean. They're just big ocean fans.
speaker-1: Ha ha ha.
speaker-2: ⁓ but I think for for Paravision to beat Vitality, I just think that's so so difficult to to see happening for me right now. Like I think it'll it'll take ⁓ I think it'll take a lot longer for them to get into that form. ⁓ I don't think it's gonna even come close this season for sure.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, probably not. I just think I just think it's a really cool possibility. Like the the little downturn, like this this poor event, like I didn't like I didn't like know which which event it was gonna be, but it makes complete sense. I said this a few episodes ago on like Talking Counter, where I think this paravision team is like it's all really cool, but it's all kind of predicated right now on guys like Belchinok, ⁓ Zello, and Noda, the inexperienced kind of trio, like putting faith in like this kind of fundamental. the fundamentals and and the protocols and the style that Jam and Destan wanna play. But at a certain point, if you're these young faced kids off the streak that are just fucking popping heads and like you blow up at the major in Budapest and that just continues into the new year. You win an event, you're like living the fucking high life. Like your ego is just naturally gonna flex. Like it I don't think any of them consciously probably realize it happens, but you're gonna kind of like flex against those rules and be like, I don't have to follow all these rules because I can compete with these guys. You know, I can actually handle this guy one on one. I'm You know, I've already played a game against him and felt like I was better than him, like I was actually getting the edge on him. And that that's all it takes to kind of go away from like the mistake free counter-strike that they're that they're known for playing when they're at their best. So I think having that poor event is like a really good timing of it to snap back to where Jam and Destan get to go go back and be like, see? Like we fucking told you, you guys suck if you don't listen to it. You know, like maybe they'll pretty it up. No
speaker-2: I think they will.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think they'll be way worse than that actually.
speaker-2: Based on the interviews they give with HL T V during that event, where they come out and they're like really mad at them, highlighting all the mistakes and then Dasta and saying that we if it keeps up then we yes we'll we'll kick anyone. Like you know
speaker-0: He just said that on the couch. Yeah. He just said, Yeah, if I could cut him right now before the major I would is literally what he said.
speaker-2: So yeah, I think they will be pretty rough with them, ⁓ after
speaker-0: I think that's a you know, talking about that team, it is an interesting dilemma because you if you're James the way that he calls, you need complete and utter trust and discipline in listening to your calls for it to really work. Otherwise, you just kind of lose the ⁓ what's the uncomfortableness, right? Like if players start taking their they start having more individuality, you start now you just start kind of looking like the rest of the European teams that like how they play Counter Strike where Lot of individuals get a lot of say and get a lot of space in what they do in in their areas of of or sphere of control on the map. But that's that that's the double-edged sword, though, is as you play better with these players that are untested, is like, how do you evolve that? And you know, I I don't know the answer. I don't think that's the tricky part, is yeah, you have more success. So how do you get more confidence in these players so that they but also maintain their trust so that way you can create because really what I think they're lacking is confidence, actually, a lot of times where That's where the inconsistency and the inexperience comes from. I actually think you think it's overconfidence. I think that it might be the opposite. I think it could be that once again, like I was saying earlier, that dilemma of trying so hard to play a certain way, they kind of sometimes don't look at their crosshair enough and they're and they just kind of like mentally you just kind of lose it sometimes. Like you just you just lose your game.
speaker-1: You know, I I'll this is all speculation 'cause I don't I don't know them and haven't really spoken to any of them, but I don't know if I'd call it overconfidence. I think I'd call it more maybe misplaced confidence. You know, like I think they should have probably all the confidence in the world in their individual ability and skills. But I think they probably put too much confidence in their own decision making off the back of all the success, right? Like I think that's where maybe the the overconfidence would come from. ⁓ you know, I remember over the years of having talked talked to someone, I for I forget who it was, one of the old guard in Counter Strike, I think. ⁓ and one things we we one thing we we talked about and we used to discuss was like the concept of in counter strike like There's like stages you get as like an individual, right? As like you rise through the ranks and everything. And then the first time you play against like a professional player and team and you get your ass kicked. And then the turning point of when you realize you can compete with the individual players and teams. There's this one like fascinating thing about, I think probably any endeavor, but Counter-Strike is like you have to like learn the textbook of Counter-Strike. Like you have to grind it so much that you assimilate like the Counter-Strike foundational textbook. And then you have to get so good that you've mastered it. And then you have to get so good that you know when you don't have to fucking listen to the textbook anymore. And that's like that those are the pro players, those guys who like reach that third step, you know, who are like, I know, I know what the right decision is, but I also know I have no like, yeah, I I also know that I'm able to like branch out of the fundamental be based off Who's dead, where my teammate is, what the situation is. Like this is a moment where I have the opportunity to be that individual player. And I think there's probably too many of those moments for the younger guys where that fucking instinct kicks in, you know?
speaker-2: Yeah, I think we ⁓ we had a chance a couple of years ago at the p in the blast Paris major, and I think this was a a good memory of mine from events where we had simple there and we were just having a conversation with him and we said, It seems like sometimes you find the way to a round win that no one else could possibly even think was the on the table. ⁓ he just says that yeah, like that just you you always find the the percentage chance to win the round and like just from playing so much and like The way he thinks about the game, obviously, it unlocks a pathway to a round win that like n you wouldn't be able to figure out if you play textbook counter strike. There's a certain level where that you have to have the ability to take that risk that somehow unlocks the opening to get into the round again. and obviously when you have the skill of simple, like more often than not, that did work out. But like for a lot of other players, you know, they'll go and try and do that and and then it'll lead to that'll ⁓ that mistake will cause a domino effect to happen and the whole round collapses off of it. But ⁓ I mean you there's a certain balance I think you have to strike between being willing to do something that makes you different and why you're there in that seat and then also like playing by the book. ⁓ I think it's quite a hard balance to strike strike.
speaker-1: This is also why we always said never watch Simple if you wanna learn how to play Counter Strike.
speaker-0: Watch device, don't watch simple. That's that's the number one rule. Yeah.
speaker-1: Simple was just like it's actually not cool enough for me to just destroy you and beat you on stage. I have to do it in a way that entertains the crowd like they've never been entertained before. And I mean it's been the fun of Simple. Yeah, but like it has also bit him in the ass plenty of times too, you know, like we don't really talk about those moments as well. I think you know, if I was honest with you, I'd say that clutch attempt on Mirage against Ents at Katavitza twenty nineteen. ⁓ yeah, absolutely the famous one going back for that kill.
speaker-2: Knife attempt for example.
speaker-0: The knife attempted.
speaker-1: That's not the optimal weird. But that's why we love the guy. You know, like that those moments are why we love him anyway. Dropping down off of the B rafters on cap.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Not scared. Probably has. He may need to step away. He's been like clockworked orange with all the simple highlights over the years.
speaker-2: Good. Okay. We need someone that's interding like that.
speaker-0: Been doing this a little bit, but and I won't, we won't we ⁓ we're not gonna beat the dead horse of the roster moves. All right, we're not gonna go down and say, Is this good or bad? But with what you've seen come out so far with the changes, you I'll say you can include mouse. It does not have to be this major because let's be honest, it's really hard to create any sort of narrative beyond what we've already talked about. ⁓ that's like interesting going into this major. We're unless somebody does something at Fort Worth or Atlanta that's like worth talking about leading into it. This isn't gonna change too much how we feel currently, right? For Cologne, I think that's fair to say. But w going into Singapore or just the rest of the counter strike calendar year, do you think any of these roster moves with like Mao's and Falcons actually moves the needle in any significant way?
speaker-1: Falcons, yes. Actually I mean Falcons I'll just say the only the only roster move that's come out recently that feels like it moves the needle in a significant way to make this a dangerous team for the rest of the year. ⁓ the mouse changes don't feel like they're gonna get there, don't look like they're gonna get there, but you know, maybe maybe we'll get surprised. But I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say that that's gonna happen. ⁓ the phase changes look even worse.
speaker-2: That to me that's temporary. To me that's just like we need to hold this until after the major and that we need a team to go to a tournament, so we'll just sign these guys. I don't think
speaker-1: Well one thing one thing one that went under the under the radar and I'm not saying this as a criticism because I actually like him is N NKJ was announced as coach and that didn't get a whole lot of attention to it, I think, because there was so much other like scene destroying news going around at the time. ⁓ but that that surprised me seeing him kind of brought on as the coach. He'd coached big in the past, I know that. ⁓ and I think he had Sprout maybe been with ⁓ he was with Ents recently But he's never I don't think he's ever had like a full coaching job of a team as high profile as this, with the expectations of this. And also managing coming out of rock bottom as your team of superstar ego players has fallen apart. You know, like I I think like It's nothing against him. I d like I don't wanna be critical. I've I've liked his work in the past. I thought he was a good analyst, especially in a good coach over at Big. I remember that's when I w I was most following his his track and his journey. but this is gonna be a really tough task for someone who's just kind of not really experienced at this level. I would say ⁓ you have about as much experience as you could get, you know, no one's gonna have more, I guess, in a way.
speaker-2: Well, I think we were hearing like rumors coming out of FaZe that they wanted to go for a coach that was more like structured and would build the system for the team for the future. That doesn't really work with Kerrigan. So I think it was good that Kerrigan's got to go. I think for FaZe, this I think there's a comparison slightly to be made with maybe like Astralis, where it's you know, this is a team that had all the legacy and then it gets stripped down to nothing and now this is like a new team and that sort of had a a breath of fresh air blown into the team, right? The expectations are kind of out the window. If you have expectations for this phase team, I think you're just crazy. Like there's just nothing here that suggests that you should have any expectations of them. So hope the players are certainly going to put pressure on their own shoulders, but there isn't as much outside pressure, I don't think, looking at this team and expecting them to perform. I wouldn't be surprised if FaZe come last at the next tournament, for example. But ⁓ I think there's a certain relief that comes from that. But I also think this is just ⁓ if if FaZe are willing to spend more money, I think this has to be just ⁓ a stop gap until we finally get you know, players available and they can rebuild the team properly. Like this is just ⁓ shit, we signed up for a bunch of tournaments. We don't really want to take the fines or pull out. Let's put players in the spots and see what we can do. ⁓
speaker-1: I'm I'm gonna put myself on a limb and potentially make myself sound very stupid here for a second. Just because I don't I don't necessarily like fully have the full you know, like the VRS is still an entity that that sometimes throws throws a curveball at me. But I remember having this conversation before like maybe like two weeks ago, and I made the argument that FaZe should wait until after the major to make a roster change because you'd have a bigger pool of player, bigger list of people who'd be available, more conversations could be had, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the counterargument was made to me, which I actually came around to and agreed with to a certain extent, was that it the best time to make sweeping changes is right now because you want to start getting points at these next events for the next season of the VRS. And I was like, okay, that's a fair point. Let's rock and roll. But now FaZe has found like the middle ground where they're making the changes now, but they're using a stand in who's not going to be permanent. And I guess that could affect VRS down the stre I don't you that's where I'm kinda like and then you have to have those considerations, right?
speaker-2: Surely FaZe are a team that just ⁓ that want to actually have like a team that has some element of excitement around them and some big names. Like they always have been. ⁓ a team that have done that. You know, obviously they've taken risks down the in the past, you know, with Brokey coming to the team first of all. Like he wasn't ⁓ a big name or anything, and it worked out. But for this when you look at this team, it just doesn't look like a team that should be under phase. You know, they've got some players in there like, okay, but you know, how are you going to keep People like twists and f and and frozen, like how are you gonna keep these players like at all interested in staying with phase if this is what you're gonna present day after day? I just don't see it happening. ⁓ and then from the mal side of things, I just literally I feel like this doesn't change anything. Like if anything, I feel like it might just get worse. So I I don't think Mao's with their roster change really. ⁓ it doesn't excite me at all, to be honest. Just s it's either the same or it's worse.
speaker-0: Yeah. With ⁓
speaker-1: I like having JL back. He's fun.
speaker-2: Right.
speaker-0: He's fun. He's fun. He's fun. I don't know. The phase thing is ⁓ I I'm of the the I you know, you say there's no pressure. I think there's actually this is why it's so weird to me. I feel like there's more pressure for phase. I know that players might not see it this way, but the organization should. You have basically these are your last two tier one events that you're gonna play. This is it. Like, because you there so I'm still trying to understand VRS too. I got a lot of people around me that Tell me things that are a lot smarter than me. And I keep them around for my events. So that way I know what the fuck I'm doing. But from my understanding, this is it. Like these are their last two invites. They're out of the invite window. They're gonna have to start grinding out Draculans, Imperial, like Roman cups. You're not gonna see them again in an ESL event. Like there's no way there's literally if they do not perform well at either one of these events, they are not going to be in a tier one event that you guys are casting. Until the major, if they have unless they have a good run. That but if they were to actually perform well at these, this will help them build their VRS back up. They're not in the major either. Like this is so bad. They are going to they're gonna be at a point where it would literally maybe just be easier to blow up the entire roster than it would be to keep these players.
speaker-1: Honestly, it it might actually be at some point come to it. Because I know like especially the grind back up from those events and having to potentially like I mean I don't know what it's gonna all entail, but having if you ever have to play like an online qualifier for someone like Twists and Frozen and Brooky who have played in the big stages on LAN, that's gonna make them wanna you know jump out of the window.
speaker-2: And I don't think ⁓ they
speaker-1: A little appetizer.
speaker-0: And they and they lost in the finals, like that could have secured like it's not this is to me, this is like actually the most important time. I agree with your take that you're gonna have more potential players available after the major. But like also at the same time, I think the landscape that's not necessarily true. I think that used to be true.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think it used to be true. I think with the VRS now, that's changed it. And that was my mistake originally. And that was why I came around to the other line of thinking of like, ⁓ actually, okay, tonight tonight right now is the best time to do it. Yeah. I just thought there'd be a little bit more of like something that felt like a more of a cohesive plan. Yeah.
speaker-0: Blockbuster moves.
speaker-2: If they do go down the path of actually like rebuilding, blowing up the roster and like redoing it all, I mean, waiting if you are going to do that, then waiting after the major is the right idea. You know, like because then you will have extra players available to restart a roster and grind your way up and with a team you actually believe can eventually do some damage. You know, if you have a great team as well, ⁓ you can fly through those tier two tournaments, you know. Like if you if we see that some of these teams, like Hunter Thieves, or a team I'm expecting to see a little bit more next season. You know, if you if you want You get a team like FaZe, you get good players in there. You're like, okay, the unfortunate thing is I know you could be playing at a way bigger ⁓ team right now, but if you come to FaZe, you know, and perform the incentive is you get into the qualification process and eventually next season is when things start taking off and you have to view it as a player if you're gonna join ⁓ as a long term project with phase. And I do think there's enough history and enough talent obviously still on phase to attract some bigger names down line.
speaker-1: Yes, ⁓
speaker-0: I don't agree. I ⁓ just real quick before I don't agree because I think if you after the major, if frozen gets really upset with what's going on and leaves or like twist wants to leave, if you lose frozen or twist, you have no leverage. I'm sorry, no one's gonna care to come to phase if you don't have twist or frozen, which is why once again kind of I think it's panic time. Like and I I think you should be And I've seen a few of the clips. I won't lie, like I haven't watched Kyson's stream, the one of the guys that's like, you know, had like very outspoken for the phase esports side of things over there. So, but I see some of the clips and I feel like you could, and I'm not blaming him, but you can start to see some of the frustration coming out from with the situation where before it was like, Yeah, we let our players do what they need to do, like we don't want people here that are unhappy. That's cool and all, but you also have to look out for yourself. And I feel like that not I feel like FaZe maybe not have looked at You know, looked out for themselves enough. And I think they're now in this situation where they really need to pedal to the metal and like get somebody in there. They need to be aggressive, like right now, because you're not gonna get a top ten rifler in the world that you're just gonna buy out at the end of this major. That's not happening. You have two of them already. You need to go get young talent aggressively right now, while people still respect Frozen and Twists on this roster and want to play with them. Because if you lose either one of them, you're buying power, you're gonna have to spend more. People are gonna be less willing to join your team. The the road back isn't gonna feel good. Like you're it it it all just kind of falls apart if they don't make some sort of run here to me, like or if they don't get players now. The idea that they just like, you know, stable the or just like you know stabilize the ship for a little bit and ride it out and hope to see what happens after the major is how it should like that's how it used to work. And I think that that's gone. They need to be aggressive at all times. There's no sitting on your ass with VRS. You just you might as well just blow up the roster and start again.
speaker-2: And I think you also, you know, being nice to your players that you have on your team now, I think that has to slightly go out the window too. It's like a professional sense. You're going, ⁓ nope, frozen and twist, you're both under contract. We're gonna have to hold you here for not for our business. ⁓ to to try and have some leverage, as you're saying. But you know, you mentioned ship, and ⁓ and I have this image of of FaZe as a sinking ship. And I just think if you know the adage of the captain should go down with the ship. I love how Carrigan, this the ship is just sunk sinking, he jumps off, he gets rescued by a yacht, you know, like he's just on the super yacht right now. With the boys, the rest of his teammates are at the bottom of the ocean, and ⁓ he's managed to get onto the super yacht with all the the famous celebrities. It's sick.
speaker-1: Fuck your ship. Goat of all time IGL candidates on the first boat out. Yeah. Fucking pack ⁓ in to the women and children from Have you did you see that documentary they just released of like the closing events? No, I didn't I didn't. That team was that team was fucking that team was in a rough place, man. Rough place. I don't I don't fault Kerrigan for that whatsoever. Like I don't know. I don't
speaker-0: ⁓ I'm sure I blame him, but I'm also not gonna blame the other players if they're a bit bitter. You know what I mean? It's like both sides. So But but we we should about mouths though, no? So we don't go too far down the phase rabbit.
speaker-1: Well let me let me transition us two mouse through the phase rabbit. It'll turn it into a wormhole. It'll go out the other fucking side. yeah, 'cause if I mean I just pulled this up on on HLTV, like the the free agents of like free agents and bench players ranking filter from top thirty teams, ⁓ and just going down the list of who is available. I'm surprised. I guess it's kind of telling in a way that this trade to bring Kerrigan to Falcons wasn't a trade to also bring Kixon
speaker-0: Happy with it.
speaker-1: To FaZe, knowing that they're replacing an IGL. So apparently just straight up not wanting him whatsoever. But Brolin now benched, Jimmy now benched on Mause. Wrinkle benched on NIP if you want to experiment with an Oper. where else are we gonna go down? Holzirk is out there in the world if you want to go that route. Lux is an interesting IGL from Legacy if you wanted to go that route. Like you'd actually there's actually not a great amount of like experienced talent. Waiting to be picked up. Magisk is down there, Dexter's down there, but that's gotta be Visa issues. So that's a sticky situation to try to get behind. Other than that, most of the guys you're gonna find are just like still kind of like in the unproven territory. So my transition in the wormhole we take over to Mouse is Berlin and Jimmy are there. If you're phasing you wanna make a fast move, you've got Berlin and Jimmy. Now, for them being removed from Mao's not Not necessarily the direction I would have personally gone, however, obviously not involved in the team whatsoever. ⁓ this is just an interesting move to now go to another change where you're bringing another player who's never IGL'd into the role and saying, What can you bring us?
speaker-0: Yeah, I I actually like
speaker-1: Except you have the additional factor of your old IGL coming back onto the team for the major.
speaker-0: Yeah, that so the timing of the move I think is dog shit. I don't know what's going 'cause that to me, like like what there the how the the ⁓ what's it, the order of operations of how they did everything, terrible. This just feels like half baked, you rushed it. It's like you thought this would be something you might want to do, but you're like, ⁓ fuck it, what if we just do it now? Like, ⁓ fuck, wait, we can't do that now. Well, we already did it. That's kind of what this feels like. But
speaker-1: Just just so the viewers get it too, it was Brolin and Jimmy benched, if for some reason you don't know. JL brought in on loan as a trial run and Zex promoted up from the Academy team. ⁓ and then JL steps out for the major and Brolin steps back in for the major. That's the fun we're having over at Miles.
speaker-2: No. And ⁓ exertion gonna be in game leading, so Yeah, everyone's got their talk.
speaker-1: He's got a dog fucking gone. First first episode's gone fucking great.
speaker-2: That could be the n maybe that's the name of the podcast.
speaker-0: I got dogs and I got guy with leaf blower right now.
speaker-2: ⁓ I hear the leaf blower too, yeah. Dogs and hammers. I think, yeah, for for mouse, the the fact yeah, th I think you raised a great point. It's like, okay, cool, making making moves, definitely needed. The time that they make the moves and the kind of moves they make, seem like a very it's a very long term project and you're going into the most important event of the year coming up here, so
speaker-1: It's honestly it's one of those moves where I want to just talk to someone on the team and just be like, hey man, let's have a chat. I got a little glass of whiskey, you got a little glass of whiskey, let's have a drink and just chat. Give me your thought process. Show me some logic. I just want to see your work, you know? Like where where was the th where was the brain going in this in this kind of conversation? I don't I don't necessarily hate it.
speaker-2: What happened here?
speaker-1: I don't really know how I feel about it 'cause I grew to be just so apathetic about Mals over the past few events.
speaker-0: You just feel bad for all the
speaker-1: I don't know the logic behind it.
speaker-2: No.
speaker-0: I got it. I do. Yeah. Tell me something. Leaf Blower's gone. This is our time. Okay. Yeah. I think it was painfully obvious when they removed Shure and they brought in Brolin and why it actually looked good for a second is because I don't think Brolin's a bad eye jail necessarily, but he's there more so to just be the voice that like steers the ship and is maybe even the emotional rock of the team to make sure it doesn't sway too much, is what it felt like for me outside looking in. And this is kind of confirmed a little bit longer, which is ⁓ Xershin and Torji are the callers. They just are. They're building all the rounds. They have been building all the rounds, I think, since Shuhei's been there, which is why Shuhei, I don't think, actually has been looking incredibly strong. I think the way that Torji and Xershin both activate in rounds also basically snowballed many of their rounds, which is why it looked great in groups and bad in playoffs when Xershin would play poorly, and when Torji started having his falloff as well. So Xercian and Torji were really to me. The voices of Mouse. And then really, they just had a guy that kind of was, I don't want like I do think they had more impact, but it's hard to know what they did and didn't do ⁓ outside looking in. But it any the the ESL ⁓ production really confirmed this for me, which is like every time there's a tactical timeout, you see Coach Yapin and you see Xershin Torgi, Zershin, Torji, Zersh, and Torji on both sides. Both sides, it's always those two. And you can see Brolin is like he'll he'll add at the end. So, but those two are building the rounds, which isn't abnormal because your entry and your Oper have a lot of impact and voice in the team. Normally, some teams it varies, but it's very clear that those two have like extra voice in those teams. So Xershin becoming the IGL, I think, is actually the natural progression for that team. ⁓ and I think individually speaking, the way that he plays ⁓ like really lends itself to that. So if they can have this Academy kid who when he came up, he impressed me like with his raw mechanics, like in general. ⁓ I can see it. Like I can see what they're trying to do. How they got there is fucking terrible. I don't know because this feels like something that they've thought about when when I look at the roster and I'm I'm working my way down. But the Jimmy move felt a little forced, but I guess that's kind of how they just felt like it had to ha happen. Cause Thanks has been playing so well. It felt like Jimmy was more of a we just have to move off of him because we need something to to make up for what we're losing in Zerchin, rather than Jimmy being so bad. But I do think his individual level fell off. So it made it less if it it felt less shitty to do now compared to like last year if they wanted to do something like that.
speaker-1: I'll tell you the weird thing with Jimmy was I actually felt like ⁓ when did it happen? I actually thought Jimmy's contract extension felt very for
speaker-2: It was after twenty twenty four after Rio when the rumors
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. And then he's been linked to like vitality once or twice as well, like over the different like
speaker-2: Man, he really should have got on that yacht.
speaker-1: Well, yeah, it might be regretting that one now. But I think more than anything, I think if yeah if you're like Maliz and he's flirted with it twice, I think it's an easy and natural place to go if you're the GM of like, you know, this guy has kind of been half in, half out regardless, and you know, let's just do it now. ⁓ yeah, I don't know. The exertion w what what makes me feel un part of what makes me feel uneasy about this move or just like kind of looking at it with like a weird side glance is I'm kinda like, I don't know what I'm supposed to think right now because my counter strike experience My Counter-Strike experience tells me I'm supposed to be thinking that a move like this is them saying, Exertion isn't really delivering for us in the roles that we have him in, but we really like ⁓ and we wanna and we wanna have him on the team. So let's see if he can IGL. And like I phrased it kind of like a dick to be to be on like on purpose.
speaker-0: Kind what they did with Brolin though too, right? Is that kinda I mean same same energy I would say. And and with Shue. That's kind of been like
speaker-1: Bro, the Brolin one came like what, like a month after he joined the team or something. So it was so fast that like I didn't I didn't necessarily care. I like, ⁓ he's the brand new guy anyways. But like this one is kinda like we realize that you you the change in your play from group stage to playoffs is detrimental to us being able to perform in the playoffs. The playmaking disappears from your position in the playoffs, but we like you. And you've been around, you know, since we were an academy team, so Here's IGL since the last guy's not exactly doing anything crazy to begin. You know, like that's what that's what my counter strike experience tells me to say. And I and I want to be wrong, you know, cause that just sucks.
speaker-2: And I think part of that as well, you can understand why they would think that. I mean, this is a guy who every interview we have with him, he seems very articulate. You know, he's can speak well, he can translate his thoughts very well to to other people. And I think obviously a great skill to have. You know, I would if I took Brolin and I took exertion and I had them talk to them for a bit, I would a hundred percent say that I would rather have exertion as the in-game leader based on like if you didn't know them. but you know, I thought there was no way in which Brolin was going to be capable of in game leading a team for as long as he did. performed decently for as long as he did. ⁓ when that first happened and Shui left, I was like, Broolin just isn't an IGL. Like if we heard this guy speak for more than a minute straight, like it just hasn't happened. ⁓ so I I think for exertion at least he'll be very communicative. ⁓ I can see why they think he's gonna be capable of doing it. and every time we listen to the listens ins and the columns, like he's definitely him and Torres your app in the whole time. So yeah, I mean that he's not gonna be alone in that department for sure.
speaker-1: I'll tell you what though, there's there's a world in which there's a decent upswing of events from this mouse team with this change. I don't know if it I don't think it'll last, but
speaker-0: After the mood rooms?
speaker-1: No, I think I think it would probably I think if it's gonna hit it would be the events leading into the major and then the major would probably get a little bit of love from other no no, well, 'cause I'm assuming when Berlin comes back, exertion is still gonna be calling. I'm assuming my reason for thinking this is because exertion is like typically a guy who wants to be an entry playmaking frontline kind of a guy. And if you make that your IGL, he's the go signal. Like so he's his own go and s go signal all of a sudden, right? Like and I think there's
speaker-0: No, you're saying
speaker-1: a short term benefit in the transition you can get where an IGL can make it like in especially in that position, can call around himself and what he wants to do as the opener, you know?
speaker-0: Yeah. So I think ⁓ what's interesting is we haven't even talked about jail. Do you guys think that's gonna stick? I I mean it's hard to talk about it. You think like he's just there? Like or you think he's actually standing or
speaker-2: I think if you if you bring up Yim Pat and you say like he's half in, half out from Maus' organization, I think JL's half in, half out on Counter Strike being a player, like actually making this a job, right? Like I I don't know. the fact he leaves Navi to go and be a streamer and content creator, he's tried being on the desk. I think he probably missed the competitive side, like he played for with Liquid for that one event. It wasn't awful. But I mean you're gonna get JL coming back into ⁓ a team that has You you make a roster move think hoping that it's gonna take you to the level. Mals are a team that make the playoffs over and over again. So the next level is winning trophies. You know, you bring a player who hasn't played. ⁓ I mean that's not really necessarily a a winning condition, is it? Like you're bringing JL trying to bring him back. I don't even know if he has that much aura really, but he's got a fucking No, he's got aura.
speaker-0: Come on. Listen to that camera, I'm gonna go.
speaker-2: Right, right. You know personality and aura, but what I mean is like the aura that's gonna win you the the g the whole trophy to win you the events, you don't think he's that kind of player that just
speaker-1: Right. He did it for Navi for a year.
speaker-2: Yeah, but Novi had the ⁓ Alexi B.
speaker-1: No no no no no. Watch some of them highlights. JL was the man providing the impact round when it was needed. That
speaker-2: He definitely adds personality to this team and and definitely has impact potential, but he's been out of the game for a while. ⁓ I've I'm just doubtful that this is gonna be the move. I'm not doubting JL's a person or a player like overall, but I just think I I doubt the move fixing Maus and making them
speaker-0: Yeah, I I'll pick it up with you but
speaker-1: I hope it does. I wouldn't mind if it does.
speaker-2: I mean it'd be good. I'm not saying that I'm like I really hope my
speaker-0: I'm surprised FaZe wasn't you know he's been looking to come back. Like maybe it's just ridiculous.
speaker-1: No, I mean He's unfortunate because of the way he was so admirably open and honest stepping away from the game and the competition to go be a streamer, that's gonna follow him for whatever if he wants to step back. You just have to prove that mentally you're gonna be there for the competition. Otherwise, and by the way, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I wouldn't fucking hate it. Like ⁓ JL just turns into the fucking streamer stand in. Yeah, you know, like
speaker-2: Attached to you.
speaker-0: Hey, that's contact.
speaker-1: Which is not a bad way to make a living. Just being a journeyman, fucking professional Just being like the fucking hustler in the fucking countryside going from
speaker-2: I ⁓ will play
speaker-0: Streamer for higher.
speaker-2: Probably scratches competitive itch as well and without the f long term commitment.
speaker-1: I don't I don't hate it. I don't hate it. As long as he keeps up the skills. But here's a fun question for you. Who's gonna have the better major? ⁓ no, Jay L's not gonna be there. Sorry.
speaker-2: Brolin.
speaker-0: Yes, we
speaker-1: No no no, I was gonna say fur. Because furs come out of fucking left field to play in the major as well.
speaker-0: Holy shit. I forgot about that. That's a mess too, man. What the fuck? It's funny. ⁓
speaker-1: No I don't want to go into it. I don't know any of the details. I've heard a couple of things. I don't want to go into it.
speaker-0: You just see really vague posted shit that just seems all cryptic as hell and it's like, you know, maybe I just stay away from
speaker-2: No, it's so funny that Fur is replacing Phelps. Like that's just it's just the funniest thing. Like these two are just forever entangled in some way, one way or another. Like we
speaker-0: Check the date on the post. Did somebody shit post and retweet like an old update or something? ⁓
speaker-1: Dude, I get caught by those all the time. Fuck those people.
speaker-0: I bet you do. Most of the strikes me as the type to be up at like four AM, see some news, like, holy shit, really? And then he's making his coffee and like an hour later, he's like, son of a bitch.
speaker-2: I bet you saw for the AI videos. Well to be fair, Jason, we are living in a world where you can't really believe anything. They you you see you don't know which one's a meme and which one's a
speaker-1: Well, that's happened many times.
speaker-0: I we don't even know if you two are real or if I'm real. Like could this all be fake?
speaker-1: The worst is now I don't trust anything at all. I don't even retweet anyone's shit. I'm like, nope.
speaker-2: That's good. That's a good way to be Living in in permanent chronic distrust is a great way to be, Jason.
speaker-0: I've never burned you, Jason. I've only paid you. Yeah. Yeah, yet. Give me give me time. Give me time.
speaker-1: Yep, I know. You're gonna hit the fucking Hall of Fame.
speaker-0: ⁓ man, we're gonna go big. I think that's a good spot though. I think that's nice. We can we can have a drink and talk about more stuff maybe in person and and maybe brainstorm the next one of these. You guys feeling good about that? Yeah, we'll get we'll get drunk and like write down some ideas that we forget about in like two weeks and be like, ⁓ yeah, that was a terrible idea.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's perfect. When we revisit it'll be fucking sweet. Are you in Dallas for the whole thing or just the playoffs?
speaker-2: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-0: I will be leaving the middle of the game's Thursday. So I'm gonna be co streaming and I just leave during a co stream and I'm gonna fly and then I land Thursday night and then I'll be there Friday, which apparently my co streaming setup is right next to the stage, which I'm not actually thrilled about. Well we
speaker-2: We'll be there every day until the final.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, well yeah, Jason's buying. That's what I heard.
speaker-2: Always buy.
speaker-1: Okay, I'll put it on the talking counter credit card.
speaker-0: ⁓ hell yeah. Yeah yeah. We don't have what we don't have a name yet, so you can't put it on our card.
speaker-1: No, we we gotta make do for now.
speaker-0: Yeah, well ⁓ no, wait, don't keep the receipts. Don't keep the You're gonna actually my manager's like what the fuck happened? Like I bought the entire bar, you know, everything and Jason ⁓ no. He'll be there too, so actually we could just put on his ⁓ yeah yeah yeah wait, yeah, you're addicted now, right?
speaker-1: First. The infinite old fashioned deals.
speaker-2: Bring your magic cards let's play some magic. Dude, you don't even want to know how many I bought last night. It was it was
speaker-0: I'll bring ⁓ I'll bring like a level two or three spell slinger is it and we'll get we'll get weird. I'll I'll I'll try to wombo combo somebody and just make them hate themselves. Yeah, that's it's
speaker-2: Okay. That's what Jason does, so
speaker-1: Do make them hate themselves.
