31. *Expert Alert* Lisa Zeiderman NY Divorce Atty - Do Divorce Better, Hello Prenup & Savvy Ladies

Shannon: Well hello Lisa. Thank you so much for being on In Between Them today.
Lisa Zeiderman: Thanks so much, Shannon, for having me. I'm so excited to be here and have this conversation with you.
Shannon: I am also so excited. I have been thinking a lot about it since we first spoke, and I think there's so many exciting things that we can weave together today. I'd love to start by just introducing you. You are Lisa Ziderman, a managing partner at Miller Zyderman in New York. You are a family law attorney and certified divorce financial analyst with over two decades in. Inside Manhattan's high conflict divorce arena, which I'm sure arena is a very fitting, fitting, fitting word for it. You are also board chair of savvy ladies. You are also which is a financial literacy nonprofit for women that we will talk about. you're also connected to Hello Prenup, which is an exciting adventure, I'm sure, in trying to bring light to a whole different way to look at things. and a relentless advocate for keeping kids out of the line of fire, which is really how we connected and where I think, you know, we want to camp out on while we weave all of these things together. Is there anything, I mean, I'm sure there's many significant pieces, but is there anything else that you'd like to share about you that I missed or that you think is important to today?
Lisa Zeiderman: So the only thing I'm gonna say is I'm also on the board of Family Legal Care, which is a very significant nonprofit organization in New York State, which helps people who represent themselves advocate for themselves in family court about issues of custody and child support and orders of protection. So it's it's a valuable organization for many people.
Shannon: It it is. I've actually sat in and watched people represent themselves and wow. You know, I realize some people want to do it, some people can't afford representation. what these people take on and what the the strength and courage that they muster to stand in front of a judge and to fight for things that are very emotional to them. I just I really have a lot of respect for that. So wonderful to hear when there's resources for them because it it's a hard thing to navigate for sure. So I I want to start, you know, I've talked to you about my podcast is really about giving, building awareness around what child what children are actually experiencing through divorce. And I'm doing it by really talking to adults who grew up that way, who are telling me their stories and shedding light on a lot of the things that maybe parents aren't aware of, or they just in the midst of everything, they're not thinking about some of these seemingly little things that impact kids in very big ways. I think we all know that, you know, divorce can be this very emotional experience for people. And so honing in on your children, even in a well-intended way, is very hard because of all the chaos and everything that's going on around it. And You know, with all of your experience and dealing with especially high conflict people, I'm interested in in how you keep people focused on their children. I would imagine that many times you have to redirect them. and if you can share some examples of like a moment that you can remember, I said this to someone and the light bulb went off. You know, give us some I ideas around that. So maybe it resonates with people who. Are in the midst of this right now.
Lisa Zeiderman: So I'm gonna tell a story actually, based upon this, because I think that people don't realize when they're actually putting their children in the middle, how upsetting it is for the children as they're going through the conflict between their parents. And years ago when I went through my divorce, it was pretty contentious, frankly. And I remember my child going to sleepaway camp and she she would have vis visiting days, and those visiting days For many children, believe it or not, are the most intense days because their parents are arriving and yelling at each other all day long when they're going through a divorce. And so we're going into the summer right now. I don't know when this will air, but I will tell you that putting your children in the middle is the most difficult thing. And my daughter, who had already been through it and we had kind of gone past it, watched her very good friend, her best friend, whose parents were there for the day. they argued all day long, I guess. And at the end, my daughter, who was probably like, I don't know, 11 or 12, she said, Why don't you do what my parents do? They come on different days. And that and and for me, that was a huge light bulb because A, I realized that my daughter had experienced the conflict, but she had figured out like how we deal with it and how not to be exposing it to her. And more importantly, she was able to actually give advice to another friend. About how to make their lives easier. And she said it to the other friend's parents like, why don't you come a different day from each other? And I'm thinking, this is so smart that that she's picked this up. So I think that many times parents don't realize when they disparage each other to their child how upsetting it is for the child. And for me, okay, the light bulb. moment for our clients is to really say to them, you understand when you disparage your your other parent, okay, you're also disparaging your child because your child is half of that other parent. And at the same time, many people lose their relationships with their children because their children do not want to listen to the disparagement of the other parent that they also love.
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Zeiderman: And so that that's kind of what we say to our clients. Besides the obvious things that You know, you're supposed to foster a relationship with the other parent. you will lose custody if you continue to disparage your your the other parent, right? It's not, it's it if you are alienating the other parent, it is definitely not good for your custodial access or your parenting time or even legal decision making because it shows a lack of judgment and courts really dislike that. But most of all, your relate your own relationship. with your child will be affected. It may not be affected at the moment, but your child will at some point catch on to the fact that you're saying hateful things about their other parent and they will
Shannon: Right.
Lisa Zeiderman: not like it.
Shannon: Right. I have experienced a lot of people give me that kind of childhood behavior with their parents. And what I've noticed is kind of the commonality with a lot of those kids is they could not wait to be eighteen and get out of the house. And it was they might have had a very affluent, a very nice, a very privileged life, but when it came down to it, they could no longer listen. To either parent talk about the other, and they literally just had to get away. And I think to your point, I really don't think that people realize. And I, it's probably, you know, we could dive into psychology about what that is about a parent's inability to really get in the shoes of their child and understand that. I think realizing, like you said, they are half of this other person. So kind of inherently. when you're bashing that person, they are hearing that as you're bashing that and that side of them. And I do I have had many people talk to me about how my mom, you know, hates my dad and I'm very much like my dad. And my mom would remind me of that all the time. And it's just like, my gosh, how horrible is that, and and so I I think what a great way to try. to get them to see. I mean, ultimately, I'm sure many times you're like, gosh, just pay attention. I I think too, that story of your daughter reminds me of a story of my son where he was probably in maybe he was eight, seven or eight. And it dawned on me recently that parents get divorced and, you have friends who have been divorced, you have family members, you have Someone will say, you can talk to my friend, you know, my friend's sister, she just went through a horrible divorce and she can tell you all of this stuff. And so adults really talk and they build this kind of common support structure that they can lean on and get advice from. Kids, when they go to school, they don't know parents' status. They don't know whose parents are married and who aren't. And when my son was like eight years old, I think it was around six or seven that he realized his life looked a little different than other kids. And he came home one day and he said, I need a group at school called Splits. And it needs to be where all the kids like me can meet and talk. And I was like, wow. And it really was something that resonated with me for a long time that these kids feel so much of the shame and embarrassment that that the parents feel, but they have no way to feel that commonality and and feel and build their own little support system Those kids are so aware and for your daughter to be like, what you guys are doing is not making my friend feel okay, And
Lisa Zeiderman: Exactly.
Shannon: here's a solution. maybe we tap into them a little bit more because it they do, they see it all, they feel it all, and they're so intuitive,
Lisa Zeiderman: They are. And I I do think that to some degree kids who are and you mentioned the splits group, that is a huge it's a group that we have in our area. We we used to call it banana splits. and it's it's a fabulous group because the kids get to meet other kids going through the same issue of divorce and and share information and and have sort of this this place to go and talk about the things that are coming up for them. But I think that kids, I think parents are often also unaware that many other kids have gone through this in their in their kids' universe, right? And in the community. And kids do pick up on things. So even you know, kids who whose parents are intact but in high conflict because they're staying together, frankly, those kids are hearing stories from other kids and they are much more aware. Of what's
Shannon: Yes.
Lisa Zeiderman: going on in the household, then I think parents actually give them credit for. There are many times that I'll see a kid who I represent, the child will come in for the first time and we'll talk about it. And I'll, you know, they'll say it wasn't a surprise. I knew it was going to come because this was happening, that was happening, that my friend, you know, was so-and-so, that's what their parents did. And and so people think that their kids are just not aware, and many times their kids are not surprised they're getting divorced.
Shannon: Yeah. I definitely think the the the willingness and the ability to just kind of say, they're just they're kids, they're not paying attention or they're not listening or they're watching TV, they're in the other room. It's the kids, it's weird because yes, many times you want them to listen to you and they're not. But
Lisa Zeiderman: Right.
Shannon: when but when you're not paying attention to the fact that they're it you know, within earshot and can hear It's like they turn on a little microphone straight to their ears. And they do. And I think that's what I've learned too in talking to all these people is they were so aware of so many little nuances to what was going on that they never should have been aware of. And or if they were aware of it, then it needed to be talked about. It needed to be addressed. So for example, a woman overheard her mom on the phone saying that her dad had cheated on her. I think the girl was in like maybe second or fourth grade, something like that. And so now she knows this and she has to live with this, and no one's talking about this. And, it's just an example of the things they hear that then they process in their little brains. And what in the world are they processing around that? so it's just. It's just about being very careful about having conversations and communicating in certain ways so that you're not leaving them out there to hear things and fill in the gaps on their own, because it just creates more issues for them. and that probably, you know, a little bit leads us into this prenup conversation because when we talked before, you said that, you know, you're seeing a rise in prenumps. But that you are seeing a lot of it around people who grew up in divorced homes that now want to avoid that. And we talked about how what it's also doing is it's causing people to have conversations that lots of people who get married don't ever have. So if you can kind of give a little bit about, you know, how this came to be and the rise that you're seeing, that would be wonderful.
Lisa Zeiderman: So there's no question, Shannon, I am seeing a huge rise in prenuptial agreements. In fact, I can't tell you, I feel like we're in the wedding rush right now, because it's June and I realize now that I am part of a seasonal business that I never knew I would be part of, because frankly, divorce is all year round. But
Shannon: Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: prenups, okay, there is definitely a surge for those June weddings.
Shannon: Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: And so, and maybe October weddings too. And then, you know, people get engaged in January. So it's it definitely has to do with the seasons as well. but prenup after prenup now. And I was saying it to somebody this morning and I said it maybe to you a couple of weeks ago, I don't know, but I really feel like there's a couple of things about prenups. One is that a lot of younger people are doing prenups because they don't want to have their parents divorce. They live through their parents' divorce, maybe they live Live through a custody battle, maybe it was just high conflict in terms of money. But the bottom line was that they they heard the arguing, they couldn't stand it, they don't want to have it for themselves or for their children. And so they want to be very transparent about their finances and they want to have a roadmap and they want to stick to that roadmap, and that is going to be how they live their lives. And so we are having very detailed, very complex, frankly, prenuptial agreements that we are doing in our office. I also think that to some extent prenups are being democratized by companies. And as I told you, I'm an investor and an advisor for Hello Prenup, which does prenups at a very low price. and you go online and you do it with your your fiance and you put it together and then you can have two review attorneys, there's a list of attorneys, etc. but it it there's no excuse now that you can't afford it or that you can't do it. and it makes people start to think about important questions about how not only how they want to divide their finances, but are they going to have children? are they going to, if they have children, is one parent going to be a stay-at-home parent? Is one parent going to need to be compensated in some way for being a stay-at-home parent and supporting the family in that way? There's so many different parts about prenups that make you have an honest and transparent conversation. about difficult issues, but I think in a very very truthful, transparent, and really romantic way because here you are two people who are getting married, who are in love, and having these very honest conversations. And what could be like better than that?
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Zeiderman: And so I I think it's it's so important. And obviously it keeps the children later, there'll still be issues about child support, I am sure. There'll still be issues about custody because these are things we cannot put into prenups if there's no children born of the yet. But it eliminates issues about division of assets and spousal support and who's gonna get to keep the primary marital residence, and if so, how it's going to be done, and what happens in the event of a death, and what happens if there were school loans before the marriage, or is there a partnership that has to be valued? All of these things, restricted stock units. I mean, the list goes on and on. The more we're doing them, the longer, frankly, the list grows because they cover more and more issues. Even issues of IVF are now covered in prenups. because in New York State you can do that. So I I think that it will keep children out of much, I'm not saying all, but much of the high conflict divorce if you have that prenup.
Shannon: any way you can mitigate conflict is good. I mean, you're never going to be able to remove it all. And like you said, those two big pieces, support and custody, parenting time, that's always going to be an issue. But if that's all you have to fight over because this has already been determined, then it is less to it's less balls in the air, so to speak.
Lisa Zeiderman: So here's my theory, and and and I don't know if it's true or not, but I actually do believe in it. and I've seen certain judges do it too. If you take start taking off issues off the table, even the easy issues, like division of personal property. I know it seems so silly that you would do personal property, that that would be a priority, but I will tell you at the end of a divorce, what do people fight about is their personal property. Like you're all done. You've like divided up. All these assets and here you are like fighting over the the the the tools of the fireplace, literally.
Shannon: I've got you.
Lisa Zeiderman: I've had that happen, okay? The artwork on the walls, okay, the you know, the the the sculpture, the the s the just like all all of the stuff, the couch, okay, the chair, the lamps, okay, all of that stuff. And so if you can start to take issues off the table and resolve them. Your attorney's gonna know if it's gonna affect another issue. It's like a chessboard, okay? But some issues are gonna have no effect and or little effect. And so take them off because they will be less to fight about. And once you're in the mode of starting to resolve things, one thing leads to another to get resolved. And I think that that's the way in many cases to start to resolve a case. I really do.
Shannon: I find it interesting when you were talking about Helloprenup that people sit down together to do it, you know, which is just it kind of mind-blowing, but also is wonderful. If if if people can do it, I just think wow, that actually speaks volumes for you two people as a couple, you know. I did have a question. If you execute a prenup, get married. What does it look like to amend it? You know, I know that I I think that you had mentioned to me that they're pretty hard to challenge. but from an amendment standpoint, you know, if your life looks very different, what do you do?
Lisa Zeiderman: So you can actually enter into what we call a postnuptial agreement. Certainly in New York State, postnuptial agreements are enforceable as long as we remember a few things about them, which I'll go through. I think there are some states, although I'm not going to tell you for sure because I don't practice in those states, that you can amend. And it's actually something that I was just discussing the other day with the people from Helloprenup. But so there are some states that allow you to amend, and again, you have to look at your individual state and speak to counsel. But in New York, the easiest way to deal with it is just to do a postnuptial agreement. And that's a it's like a prenup but after marriage. The only difference a postnup does have a bit more of a cloak that the court will utilize to make sure that it's fair. Okay. It doesn't have to be equal, but it has to have some amount of fairness because now you are married to the person and you have a fiduciary duty to watch out for that person because you are their husband or their wife or their spouse. And so it is important that you keep in mind that there needs to be consideration, meaning something has to be given and something has to be given on the other side. Again, it doesn't have to be equal. It can be unequal, but it has to be so that nobody in their right mind would think that somebody just was just not in their right mind when they signed
Shannon: Right.
Lisa Zeiderman: it.
Shannon: Right. That makes sense. When these people come to you for a prenup and they are coming to you because of their childhood of divorce, what version of a conflict are they trying to avoid in the future? D is it similar or is it just different across the board?
Lisa Zeiderman: think it's it's pretty similar actually. It's two issues. One is division of assets, and many of those people are very happy to do well, I should say there's two two schools here, right? So there is the division of assets and somebody sometimes was watched or witnessed a parent really getting the short end of the stick. And that person was left with very little perhaps, while the other person went on to lead a very lavish and luxurious life. And there is a concern that that could happen to me. So there's that one, okay? there is also this idea, I think that what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours, and then what we decide to put into a joint account we do. And that alleviates basically all the conflict in some ways, because now everybody has a roadmap that they need to go out and they need to be earning and producing and and and that's just the way it's gonna be. And that is the big conversation, right? That's one of the big conversations that I think is so important to have. Is there an expectation that everyone is going to be pulling their own weight, literally? Or is there an expectation that someone is going to stay home and maybe raise a family or be supportive of somebody else's career? And so I think that that also comes from seeing a bad divorce where perhaps somebody did, frankly, help somebody else's career raise children and then was left with a short end of a stick. And so there's there's two ways to look at that, but that's a very big part of it. and I think the other piece of course is this idea that they want to make sure that they are not looking at a situation where there's going to be infidelity and somebody's going to be going off into the night with all of the money. I think that that's that's another thought process.
Shannon: Yeah. Seems to be that it a lot of it revolves around the financial pieces where there's a lot of that fear, you know, that you can't
Lisa Zeiderman: It's all about the year.
Shannon: control what someone's going to do. And so you're trying to kind of preempt that being left in a way in a you know in a position that you can't sustain something or that maybe you, you know, should benefit from something and someone's trying to
Lisa Zeiderman: Right.
Shannon: weasel it away from you.
Lisa Zeiderman: Right. And I think that that's that's a hundred percent correct. And I think it's also about transparency because perhaps there was a a parent who was hiding assets or not you know, or controlling assets. And so there is definitely that other need to have my own money, my own accounts, etcetera, and being able to access that money.
Shannon: Do you see when people have prenumps or come in for them? So they, well, I guess I should say, how many people come in by themselves that they then have to get their partner involved? How many people come in to you together?
Lisa Zeiderman: So for for me, okay, unlike HomePlow prenup, where you're going online and you're doing
Shannon: Right, right.
Lisa Zeiderman: it together, they don't do it together with me. They are
Shannon: Okay.
Lisa Zeiderman: coming to me, one person is coming to me because I don't see two people together ever. Okay. I I represent one person and then I am either drafting or reviewing an agreement, usually drafting the agreement, and then sending it, that person is then sending it to their spouse to be, or I am sending it to their spouse's attorney.
Shannon: So quite a difference coming to you versus hello prenup.
Lisa Zeiderman: Yes, and and and frankly the pricing is very different too. But, you know, again, complexity, you know, we deal with very high stakes, complex issues, division of restricted stock units and options and you know, carry forward losses and I mean things
Shannon: Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: that are not easy and have to be really well thought out.
Shannon: And probably people that are coming into it with either generational wealth or something that maybe is family. So there's a lot of other needs to protect certain things, I would imagine. I mean, Helloprenum
Lisa Zeiderman: A hundred percent.
Shannon: seems like such a wonderful outlet for people who just they just want to sit down together and kind of go through this exercise and have these conversations. And again. If you should be getting married, then you should be able to talk these things through. And for peace of mind, you know, what a wonderful way to be able to do that. I wanted to ask you, what about if you knew, like you agreed, we want to raise our child and we want them to go through private school. You know, or you know, let's just say there's something that you can foresee like that. Can you associate the cost ahead of time to a person? No.
Lisa Zeiderman: No, because there is no child at the time. And the court could always look later, right, and look at whether it's really in the best interests of the child to even be going to private school, right?
Shannon: That's
Lisa Zeiderman: So maybe this is a child who is dyslexic and needs to go to a special school. Maybe this child actually needs to be mainstreamed in some way. You know, it's they you cannot contract for a child that is not born for any purpose, basically. If the child is born. That is a different story. But if the child is not born, no, you cannot.
Shannon: Interesting. Okay. I didn't know if there were ways to get around it, you know, to kind of get a few things in there. Okay.
Lisa Zeiderman: No. Also some of that will have to do with support. And so we have in New York, we have what's called Child Support Standards Act language that would have to go into any agreement to be enforceable later in terms of all of this. So where you're stating your income and the other person is stating their income, and then you're you're doing various calculations in accordance with the statute so that everybody again knows right when they're entering into the agreement what the story really is. what the pro rad or percentage should be under the law and the it it's impossible to do this at the at that time because there's no child.
Shannon: Right. I would imagine though that some of these things may come up in conversation at least, as people are thinking things through, which, going back to just mitigating conflict, anything that can come up before, I think can be helpful. And maybe here's a question. I mean, how many people sit down to do a prenum and they end up not getting married?
Lisa Zeiderman: So we've only had I think one person who we did a prenup for, and they did actually I shouldn't say that we had two. Two that we did a prenup for, or that we even started the conversation. One we started the conversation, the second one we actually drafted in all the time that I practiced, and they did not get married. most people will get through it, okay? and I think that that's generally true. Most people will get through it. And I've also learned that now what I tell clients to do is to go back and ha after I do the initial consult. I usually say to them, have you had the discussion with your fiance about the terms that we are discussing? Okay. Or, and if they haven't, then I usually say, why don't you go back and have the discussion? So that we're not drafting for just you and me. We're actually drafting for you and this person. And that we're not spending all this time and money and effort. And then we get to the end, and then it was like, why did we do this? Because nobody was
Shannon: Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: doing this.
Shannon: Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: And so it's better for you to have the conversation with your spouse to be, maybe after the consult, maybe before, but certainly to have the discussion before the draft starts. And I'm gonna say people also feel that they haven't been sandbagged when that happens. So
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Zeiderman: many times I think, you know, we've gotten prenups from fan from somebody who has a family who there's generational wealth, and we get the draft, and maybe it's two weeks before like. that's a prime time for some reason. Two weeks before the wedding, right? Okay. And it's like arrives, okay. And everybody is scrambling. And the answer on the other side is, well, we've done it this way for Joe the brother and Simone the sister and and this person. And that's the way we're doing it. Well, how do you think that person feels on the other side of that?
Shannon: Right.
Lisa Zeiderman: Right? They they're not Joe or Simone or whatever. And these are not names of any of my clients, by the way. But they're not any of of those people, right? And they are now have two weeks and less, because they had to find the attorney too, right? And and there's attorneys who won't even take it, right? I won't take it. If you come to me like the same week, I'm not doing it. Right. So I I I might do it at two weeks if I if I can do it, but one week and you come to me with an agreement, no, I'm not doing it. Because it's too difficult. And so you're not even getting the chance to negotiate it or think about it. It's like kind of like the wedding has been planned, the invitations were sent, the people are here. They're getting on planes to come.
Shannon: Yes. I mean, your initial thought might be, what are you trying to pull over me because you're giving me no time? I mean, talk about a red flag. You know? Yeah. I
Lisa Zeiderman: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so planning when you get engaged, like when Valentine's Day happens and you've just gotten engaged, that is the time to say, you know, we're maybe before the engagement even happens, you know, I will expect that we're gonna have a prenuptial agreement and we should both find lawyers to do that. And that's the time to start having those conversations.
Shannon: Right. I would imagine the stigma of them is a hard one. I mean, some people, like you've said, it's just a part of their family. It's the way that a f family works. But that's not your average person in the world, is that everybody's, you know, living in a life where they just know that all their siblings and their parents and everybody's always signed a prenup. But you can see the benefit of it to every person who gets married. But the jump over that stigma that I think that, you know, when we think prenup, you think, you know, we all know what we think in our heads. that if there's a way to move past that and really explain the benefits and explain the long-term, even down to the mitigation of conflict to your potential future children if you unfortunately get a divorce, that side of it should be a huge piece to why it makes more sense to do it. But I would think that it's just gonna be a slow crawl to get over what people think when they hear prenup.
Lisa Zeiderman: So I'm going say something, and I think this is one of the most important things that people overlook. They are they already have a prenup. The minute they said I do in New York, they actually had a prenup. Their prenup is made of the statute in New York, the case law in New York, right? And and all of those, like those books, okay, that we all have read, all right, that are now online, but all of the those that information, that's your prenup. Okay, you just didn't. Read it. You didn't read the statutes, you didn't read the cases, you don't have the knowledge base for it, and you just you entered into your marriage, but that's your prenup. Now you have an opportunity, whether it be with lawyers, with hello prenup, with however you are going to do it, you have an opportunity to craft your own prenup. But don't make any mistake about it. You already have one automatically when you actually said I do in New York or in any of these states, frankly. You just didn't realize it. And that prenup has so many gray areas that you're going to be fighting over, frankly, in the event of a divorce, particularly in a high-stakes divorce. And you could simplify that prenup and craft it by entering into your whole prenup. So I think it is short-sighted, frankly, of people to think that they have to like they have this huge stigma to get over, because what they should be thinking is. This is like a real opportunity for us to create something that's for us. Not for all of New York State, not for all of the country, but for us that's going to work for us. One way or the other, it's going to work for us because we're going to talk about it, have discussions about it, negotiate it. It may not ever be perfect for either one of us, but we have the opportunity to make it more perfect than all the gray areas of the law that we are entering into anyway.
Shannon: Yeah, I think that's a huge it's a huge point. It might be the most important message to point out is it it's essentially a way for you to create your own law around your family dynamic. And I think it's no different than when you get divorced, if you have, you know, I hate to say, but if you have just kind of a basic attorney that just kind of boilerplates their your divorce judgment. And there's nothing specific around your family dynamic, you're gonna have problems forever because nothing, nothing has been specified. And so every time something pops up, you have no guidance around it. And not exactly the same, but in terms of what you're saying is this is gonna be things that apply to you whether you like it or not. Just because you said I do, and you've not thought anything about the way you would like to live in the world with your spouse.
Lisa Zeiderman: Exactly. Exactly.
Shannon: Yeah, that's pretty amazing. I mean, when you say it like that, okay, somehow that needs to be in a marketing slogan.
Lisa Zeiderman: Ha ha ha.
Shannon: Like you're already you're already locked in, but you just didn't agree to these terms, essentially, you know. Yeah, that's pretty amazing.
Lisa Zeiderman: Exactly. Exactly. So Yeah, I think people overlook it.
Shannon: So yeah, for sure. gosh, I think all the conversations that you have leading up to a prenumber so important. It would probably change so much for people. You know.
Lisa Zeiderman: It would. They would have conversations. You know, you asked about private school and and I was just speaking with somebody about their prenup. And although I was I said, we can't actually discuss private school in the prenup, but I said when you agree to this and this and this, you also have to remember that you're gonna probably be paying some percentage of private school and some percentage of summer camp and some percentage of extracurricular activities and and child support and you've got to remember all of this. And so Keep this in mind when you're when you're actually figuring out the finances that are involved in in going into a prenup.
Shannon: Yeah, you're able to sneak in a lot of those things for them to consider and talk about for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: Yes, yes, exactly.
Shannon: Yeah. So I think this, you know, is a really nice opportunity to have you talk about savvy ladies. we've talked a lot about how the finances drive so much of this. And yes, there are other components, but like what you said where if you just go together to your financial financial advisor, then first of all, the peace that that's giving both people by both people hearing the same thing. you know, whether it's the man or the woman who's kind of leading the charge, everybody's then everybody gets the opportunity to ask questions. It just it all of that. It it demystifies so much about what do we have? What are we doing? What if something happens, you know? And so with savvy ladies, I would imagine that it's really giving women the support to understand finances and to know what to look for, what to ask for. So tell me about how that came about and what that is doing for women across the board.
Lisa Zeiderman: So Savvy Ladies is is really my passion. it is about women's financial literacy and and through that women's financial empowerment. And I met Stacey Francis around 2018 or 19, and Stacy was the founder is the founder of Savvy Ladies. She had started the organization because her grandmother actually had been abused by her grandfather and physically abused, but also financially abused. So she didn't have control of her finances. There was sufficient monies, but because she had no control, she it became a gateway for other abuse. And so at some point she was literally pushed to her death by her grandfather and the grandmother, and Stacy started Savvy Ladies. And Savvy Ladies, I would say the secret sauce that we have is our helpline, which was turned into an app as well, which was built by both NASDAQ and Salesforce, and we helped with. About 3,000 women now a year, nationwide. I just learned actually California is one of our biggest areas, which is interesting. but we really help them nationwide across the country. They call in or put a question on the app, they download the app and they put their financial question on, and then we have 300 really fabulous financial professionals who are able to connect with these women. They take the question off the app that is interesting or or something that they feel they can really help with and connect with the woman. And and we are told that this alleviates so much stress, so much anxiety for women. And it helps them actually learn about how to get a mortgage or how to diversify their portfolio or just the conceptual. We're not giving financial, we're not saying, you should go buy Apple stock, but we are saying, you know, you should diversify. Are you planning for your 401k? If so, how are you doing it? Those kinds of questions of how to put yourself in a better financial position so that you can feel more in control and you can feel more empowered. And we we have touched literally the the about 10,000 women in 2025 through our helpline. our panel discussions, webinars, our website, our gala, which happens yearly. And we are also starting to build a pipeline of women actually who want to actually go into a career as financial advisors. And so which is amazing, absolutely amazing. And we're starting to have and we talked about you know kids who have grown up in some of these households And how and the difficulties that they've watched. Well, we're also starting to have money conversations, money conversations in the high schools, money conversations in the libraries, and they are we use these cards to start the conversation going, and they are so meaningful to people because all of a sudden women are talking about money, okay?
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Zeiderman: And that has been so taboo. It's the same women perhaps who didn't go to the financial advisor for their meetings, right? Their husband was going, but they weren't going. They either said, I'm too busy, I don't feel like it, or the husband said, Don't worry, I've got it. Well, that's one of the problems for women is that they don't attend the meetings, or the financial advisor doesn't really reach out to them. And the more you don't go, the less the financial advisor is going to reach out to you. And and there there are not enough, although, as I said, pipelines are growing, I think, across the country to have more female financial advisors. And so Savvy Ladies is supported by so many great institutions, financial institutions, retailers across the country who have been supportive of our cause. And as a result, I think women really are feeling more empowered financially.
Shannon: do you know w the target audience? So is it married women that are trying to get educated, single women? What what is the the makeup of that?
Lisa Zeiderman: So it it is low to moderate income women, first of all. But okay, we serve women of all income levels. Okay. And so there are also there's a large group, I think about seventeen percent of the women who are coming to us actually are contemplating or going through a divorce. And so that is a huge audience for us. there is another like sixteen or seventeen percent of women who are coming to us because they want to actually grow a portfolio, grow their finances. And so they are trying to figure that all out. but we help women of all really across the country, you know, all nationalities, all races, all income levels, but low to moderate income is still where we are you know, getting the most most people. And definitely there is a huge amount of people who are going through a divorce who are using that helpline.
Shannon: Can you speak to that fear and that financial awareness or lack of awareness? and how you see that play out in divorces? So if you have a kind of an unequal financial situation come in the door, but then somebody gains some awareness, do you see how that transitions in terms of their ability to negotiate, their desire to have less conflict. do you see the evolution of that awareness change things?
Lisa Zeiderman: So I'll say a couple of things about that. You know, the reason I became so interested in savvy ladies was because I saw so many women come into my office for that first consultation where they just had no awareness of their finances. And that is scary for women. It they how do they know what they're going to have at the end if they don't know what they have at the beginning of the process, right? So they come in and they just like, What am I rights? Well, what are your assets? Well, I don't know. And therein lies the problem, right? Because we, you know, they really are scared that they're gonna have no income. They have been out of the workforce, many, many of them. they they have no insight into the accounts. I think he has, you know, this much, but I'm not sure because I don't get to see any of the accounts. So the answer is yes. And by the end of the process, I will say this. They often are surprised about how much there really is. Okay. That's a very big surprise to a lot of women. I s sometimes hear, but he told me there was no money and I couldn't spend any money. Okay, and there's all this money, okay, and and he was spending it really well. Okay, so that's that's one, okay. Or unfortunately the money has been gambled away or used for other other purposes outside the marriage, perhaps drugs, perhaps alcohol, perhaps other partners, okay. I'll call them partners to be, you know, nice about it, but infidelity, marital waste, etc. And so they are learning about that. and and perhaps nothing bad happened and we just have to divide it up and it's all fine, right? But but they they will not be in that situation again. Okay. They
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Zeiderman: will not be in that situation again where they are not in control of their finances. And what is also interesting Right. And we talked about conflict for the children. I think that when money is tighter, okay, it may and when everybody is anxious about money, or one person is, it's going to create conflict. So somebody says in the household, you can't spend that money the way you're spending it, but I don't know how much I'm spending compared to what we have, because you haven't told me what we have, right? And I have no in no insight into what we have. So how do I know?
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Zeiderman: I want you to budget this, or I want you to stop spending on this, or no camp for the kids this year, or but I don't know any of this, right? And so there's that. There's also the part that I think that there's an aspect of control, but then that control also has an aspect of pressure because now the pressure is on that person who's in control to make sure that they're earning enough, that they're creating enough to actually. be able to support the family. And I think if people were more honest and transparent about their finances, then everybody would be in the same have the same line of thinking and they could work together and collaborate together. And the children, to your point, okay, would be in less of an anxious, stressful,
Shannon: I don't know.
Lisa Zeiderman: conflicted situation because everybody
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Zeiderman: would be on the same page. And it's not a bad lesson, by the way, to teach your kids too. It's okay if there isn't money to go to camp, but everybody has to really understand that that's the case.
Shannon: It's actually interesting. As you were saying that, I was thinking back to some of the different people that I've talked to who describe different financial situations in their childhood, whether it was pre divorce or post divorce, but there was just financial strife in some way, shape, or form, and how that then showed up in their adulthood. So also I'm thinking of people that, maybe it's Single married or whoever is is coming to you or coming to Savvy Ladies for the financial literacy, in a lot of ways, they may be trying to heal kind of financial wounds from their own childhood that they're never going to potentially get in any other way, you know? And so in a way, it's it's helping them feel more at peace and give them awareness. But it's also, especially for single women, I would think. It's setting them up for such greater success going into a relationship, And then if we think of the ripple effects, then they're the children that they are going to have are going to learn good lessons from these people what a wonderful way to hit people in so many different ways at so many different points in life. And to get them to be thinking of things in a way where they feel supported and not judged or condescended to. Because I think that's so much of why people don't reach out they don't want to say they don't know. They don't, you know, there's so much shame around not understanding finances to say I don't know what we have and I'm married is really it's very hard for people, I think, to to come to terms with that.
Lisa Zeiderman: There's no question about it. Look, I I'm gonna say, you know, sometimes I have a client who I might see years earlier, right? And I say to them, You really need to to get divorced, like you just need to do this, right? And they don't do it. And recently we had a client who came back years later, right? And and she had told one of the people who was working on the case with me that she was afraid or embarrassed to come back to me because I had told her that this was gonna happen, right? And that it did. And she felt really embarrassed by it that it had happened and and she didn't want to have to tell me. So she went first to another attorney and then that didn't work out and then she came back to me, right? And she said, Okay, like I have to deal with it, I guess. But but the bottom line is is that it's it's so important to be having these conversations, to be honest with yourself, to live in the truth. Right, of what the situation is. And and I think that people tend not to do that because of shame or fear. And unfortunately it's not gonna help.
Shannon: Right, right. so is the helpline the number one way to get involved or is there another way? So it just the helpline is how you do it.
Lisa Zeiderman: Well, so getting involved is a couple of things, right? You can obviously get involved by being on committees with us. you can get involved by attending panel discussions, by attending the gala, by I mean, there's so many different ways to be involved. and we do events during the year, we do like a a a big breakfast where we do a huge panel discussion in Financial Literacy Month. and we do some other things to connect people. And then if you have a specific need. It's the helpline or our webinars. And we do a lot of webinars. The website has tons of information on it. So that is a great way to check us out is to go to savvyladies.org and to check us out and to see what's on there and go through the website. There is articles and blogs and all sorts of information. there's like a whole budgeting section and and then these money conversations that we're starting to do if people are interested. in learning how to do these money conversations in their community. We would love to train people to do them across the country and and we as I said, libraries, schools, all of that.
Shannon: If someone wants to tap into it, Does it give them guidance in how to talk to their spouse or how to start to uncover what they don't know? Because I would think that can be very hard if you know nothing. Where do you start?
Lisa Zeiderman: So we do do a divorce panel series. It's a four-part series that we usually do in January and February. and we do it for four weeks. and on each one of those series, they we have like a forensic accountant who's gonna talk to you about how to look for hidden assets. We have a computer forensic person, we have a vocational analyst, so we have a whole group of people who are professionals who are gonna actually talk about these different topics. So that's one way. and the computer forensic person is going to talk to you about learning how to read your tax return, for example. So your tax return has a whole bunch of information, right? It has a schedule whereby dividends and interest are actually usually on that schedule, and you can see what accounts exist. And you can kind of almost back it out by the dividends and interest to some degree. Getting those tax returns is one of the most important features. And so you could call the helpline and find out well what documents would I want to look for? That's a question that I think women could ask on
Shannon: Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: the helpline. They're not going to be able to deal with your specific air issues of your divorce. You're going to need an attorney for that. But they certainly could tell you what each of the documents are, you know, what the tax returns would be able to tell you or what account statements you might want to be looking for or any of that information. And
Shannon: Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: and I think that that's very helpful to women.
Shannon: I think that's really helpful because if you are in that situation, you don't even know where to begin. And that feels so daunting. And so, yes, if you know what to look for, to take to your attorney, you know, versus then going to your attorney and telling them, I don't know, and your attorney doesn't know exactly how to help you, maybe. And so I think that that's a wonderful way to give them the tools to get the resources to take to the right person. who can actually
Lisa Zeiderman: Yes.
Shannon: look at their specifics.
Lisa Zeiderman: So I mean it it's great, there are going to be people who are going to be probably listening to this and they probably won't even get to see their tax returns, right? And that's gonna be a situation where they just need to find an attorney who's going to be able to do the discovery, what we call discovery, and they may have to subpoena accountants, they may have to subpoena the transcripts from the IRS. There are things that can be done. There all is not not lost. there there is a way.
Shannon: Yeah, yeah. we talked a lot about finances and we talked a lot about numbers, but I think that which which may seem weird to people who have not lived through a divorce or lived, you know, in any way exposed to this type of situation in life. But I think if anyone just knows the angst that people can feel around money in general. And then you lump in children and you lump in who gets the house? Do I have to move? We, you know, all of the pieces. If you are a parent who is really trying so hard to not mess up your kids more, even though you're getting divorced, it's so hard to stay focused on that with all of this stuff swarming around. anything that is helping educate, make people aware, give them little things that they can do that just kind of quell some of that storm that may come, your your kids are always going to benefit from that, Even if you still have conflict, I commend you for. All of these ways that you're seeing opportunities to try and and help mitigate that. And and I just hope people pay attention to these things might sound hard. You know, it might be hard to have a prenup conversation. It might be hard to say, I don't know anything about my finances and I feel like an idiot. But if you're all if you're trying to get to a better place and or if you can use your children. as motivation to do better or to learn more or to set yourself up for a little bit more peace, maybe that's enough of a nugget for people to kind of get over the hump of some of these hard things.
Lisa Zeiderman: I I think that's a hundred percent correct. I I think that anything that you can do to put yourself more at ease, not to disparage your spouse in some ways, to bring down the conflict, the stress, the anxiety that is in the household is going to help your children. It it just will.
Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, can you think of anything else that you would say if you were talking to people who are in these situations and they really want to keep their children centered and keep their children first in what they're doing, but they do have all this stuff swarming around them. I mean, what is your kind of go to advice to help them?
Lisa Zeiderman: So I think the first thing is you have to take the level down in the household. That's that's the most important thing. And you know, use a therapist, okay? use your attorney, use professionals to help you. Don't two people can't be arguing if one person isn't standing there any longer. Okay. So if you just learn to walk away, there used to be a judge on the bench who used to say, just walk away and you then there can be no argument. And you don't have to have everything is not a win. It doesn't have to be a win. You can just say simply, that's not accurate, or I hear you, or I'm sorry you feel that way, and leave the room. And, you know, take a walk. Do something that is going to bring the level of of hostility down because that is what's going to affect your kids the most.
Shannon: Yep. Yep. Yep. I I I hear it all the time. And I I hope and pray that there just can be some greater awareness around that because ultimately the kids the kids are just I hate to say victims in this, but they just are victims of divorce. And parents get to choose if they if they do it better or if they do it worse, because a divorce is a divorce and yes, it sucks. Nobody wants that. That's not why anybody gets married, but At the end of the day, the parents get to choose if they compound that pain for their kids, or if the divorce was just this piece of their story, but they were still able to thrive. And so so much of what you're talking about is on that path where you're saying, okay, this is what we we ended up in. And it's unfortunate, but hey, let's decide to do it better so that our kids don't continue to suffer, Yeah.
Lisa Zeiderman: Exactly. I'll say one other thing.
Shannon: okay.
Lisa Zeiderman: Posting on social media. Be careful of what you're posting about the other parent. That's like the worst
Shannon: Yes.
Lisa Zeiderman: offense. And we see it so much of the time. Don't post something that is disparaging about your other parent. Because it really it affects your children. The community sees it. Their friends' parents see it. Their friends see it. It is so embarrassing and difficult for the children. So be careful about that.
Shannon: Seems like such common sense, but in this
Lisa Zeiderman: Yeah.
Shannon: world you just have to point things out.
Lisa Zeiderman: You have to say it all because if you miss it, I'm telling you, you don't say it. It it happens.
Shannon: My gosh. well, Lisa, thank you so much for your time. This has been so wonderful and eye-opening that there are all these ways that people can do better, you know, and set themselves up before to do better. And I think that, you know, from for all the kids out there that are going through it, if parents can hear this and just make some better decisions, I think it's a wonderful thing. So thank you for being so, so Open in sharing your time, but also so resourceful in all of the information. I think that, you know, if people can go to Helloprenup, if they can go to Savvy Ladies, if those things, you know, fit into their world, I think that the it's never gonna be a bad decision, you know, to to do that extra stuff. And and if it if it makes you more sure to get married, that's always a plus too, right?
Lisa Zeiderman: Agreed. A hundred percent. A hundred percent, Shannon. And you do such great stuff. I'm I'm so thrilled to have been on this podcast. I really thank you. your mission on helping children and and people is so great.
Shannon: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Have a wonderful day.
Lisa Zeiderman: You too.