Murder in slow motion: Claude Robinson & Vince Hurley Pt.2

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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. In Part two of I Catch Killers, I continue discussions with my two guests, Claude Robertson, a former prisoner who is literally making society a better place with his innovative approach to reducing crime. And it comes as no to me that the politicians are sitting up and taking notice of the work that Claude is doing in the managing of the Rainbow Lodge. And we also have doctor Vince Hurley, who has a unique understanding of crime, having been a former cop now academic. We talk about the dangers of people like Desi Freeman, and importantly a program to reduce domestic violence, which I think is a great idea, and also touch on how the justice system doesn't treat everyone equally. Have a listen. Vince Hurley and Claude Robertson, Welcome back to part two of Eye Catch Killers. What I want to talk about and I enjoyed the chat because it's good in part one getting your thoughts on crime from different perspectives. But what I want to talk about is domestic violence. How do we prevent it? What are the issues that we face. Claude, firstly to you, you sent me some statistics that in the past thirty years the murders of women have heard.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I started doing some research, you know, because I was getting we're getting bombarded. Oh this is there's a national crisis. You know. I think they even convened a national cabinet. I'm not meeting like one. There's too many why I you know, similar to similar to both of you in like, if you don't get the facts, you can't get a solution. You're going the wrong thing.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think that's important because again saying that not what raising that's saying. I look, we're talking about domestic violence. That's not really an issue. As you said.
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Speaker 2: One inside My thing is so when I a Bureau of Statistics went back, so ninety ninety one hundred and forty eight women were murdered last year, seventy eight. I know the year before was the biggest peak we'd had in twenty years. I think it was one hundred and one. And I'm thinking, what if we've done something right, if we have halved it, why aren't we talking about what have we done that's worked? We've done something? And when I looked at it, I'm not an academic, but you know, the research that I could look at, I saw a direct relation that was from ninety one, I think ninety three the new gun, you know, Howard the buyback, and unlike Americans who go you know, nothing wrong with guns. Its humans a lader crap as someone who's been shot if there's a gun there. And I say this to people, to stab or strangle someone's a really personal thing. To shoot someone, he's nothing you can do it. You don't even know that the outcome of it when you pull that trigger. And I'm not an expert, but I looked at that and thought, there's got to be a correlation with all the guns. The access to guns stopped, you know, and then there been some peaks, and then when I looked at the Liberals and the Nationals, over the last five or ten years is starting to chip away at those gun laws, you know, And I think we saw that with the Bondai. Think you know that, you know, I can't believe that a father was able to have six guns in a house with someone who's been on a terrorist washed list. And I'm not a terrorism it but common sense would say that you don't have guns with someone who's been on a list at any stage, you know. So yeah, and I thought, why are we, you know, focusing and don't get me wrong, women's too much, but when that's not the true narrative, and you know, I met with the Chief Magistrate of New South Wales and another magistrate and someone was there from Boxer and you know that they were upset about that too, because what they said was the three hundred thousand women who were assaulted in hospitalized hasn't changed and nobody talks about it.
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Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
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Speaker 2: So it's like we're saying so and I go, because what will happen The politicians will go and change a law or make a law about based on something that's not real. Why this underlying thing. It's not pretty or it's not good story. It doesn't make it great, it doesn't make the news.
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Speaker 1: When we last caught up the three of us, you guys were working on a plan, an idea to help combat domestic violence. Stop it when it's occurring, so it just doesn't a person doesn't get caught up in the system. Do you guys want to talk about the concept you were talking about?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so obviously from the Q and A thing, we had some more conversations and what I.
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Speaker 1: And just because we've made reference to the Q and A thing, but that was Vince and just do you go Vince hashtag Vince, you're on Q and A on the ABC on the I think the topic of discussion was domestic violence and you unleashed about your frustration and the frustration that you've seen from your early times in policing, and we don't seem to be doing anything that's actually working.
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Speaker 3: No, No, I think just going back to call the point earlier about the number of women, and that has actually halved, surprisingly, But what I think has taken its place is other type of domestic violence with the coecid control that's captured a lot of things. Emotional, financial, You've got elder abuse, You've got dowry abuse, so Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian countries, when the wife's family has to give a dowry to the husband's family. If that dowry is insufficient, but the family is still willing to take that bride, that then plunges that bride into a life of marriage slavery.
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Speaker 2: I worked in forced marriage at one when I was at town to Monday, so we ran one of the only forced marriage houses for young girls escaping. But yeah, generally young Muslim girls out of Western Sydney. And when I looked at all the data and all the things and all that, you know, it's not a religious thing. It's about money. Yeah, yeah, that's all It's about you control, money and power.
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Speaker 3: Just getting off the point, because we always do, but I'm not talking about it, talking about cosy control. A friend of ours he did in the police. He went to a domestic argument and they went in and the bloke was doing all the talking and one of the police, thank god they switched on, goes, oh, this is not quite right. So the other bloke so, i'm's going to go for walk through the house to have a look. And on the kitchen fridge was a list of chores this woman had to do and she signed it. It was a fucking contract and they took that and they charged him of coercive control. And the fucking fuck, what a fucking human. But not even that imbecile does that.
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Speaker 2: That's not on new. When I worked at the Salvos, we did some stuff with domestic violence and we had a lady and we had to drive down this street at the same time every day because the only time she could leave the house without a husband or the sons was at this particular time. So we would have to drive down this street to see if she was there to pick her up. You know, one day we picked her up, Like that's the level of controller with the forced marriage. I remember, we're getting a young girl out of a Western Sydney high school. So this is the level of control they have over their life, and it's a form of domestic violence. We just call it forced marriage and it was great. I work with the Federal police on this, who were amazing, you know, yeah, really really good things. So what we would do with her when we knew she was going to come out, because the Federal police had flagged it, they referred to her to us. She brought one item a data school for six months. That's the level of control that they had over her life. That if she had too much, too many clothes or two extra things in her bag, they'd be on to her. So she would bring it to the school every day and leave it in the principal's office. And at six months, because you know, you're asking people, especially in force, to leave the whole life. They found everyone, but you can't go back, and potentially it's here. It's not at a level where you go to England they kill you.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 2: And when you would hear their stories of the control, like I remember this young girl telling me this is and this is fridening. My daughter's ten years old. I think she was ten or eleven. And the frightening thing this is not just the man. The mother's part of this is, you know, So they would have these men around. The girl just thought that friends of the family and she would serve them tea and biscuits and all this sort of stuff. But what they were doing was showing, you know, and I just go like, well, you know, and some of these, you know, we're taken overseas. We had one who ended up overseas because we actually got the got her away from the husband and then coersively got her out and got her to America. America has no forced marriage laws and you can marry fourteen year olds in some states. Still. I remember working with the federal police and all we could do was we just had to get her to an Australian embassy or consulate, which was our property, yes, yes, and then we could get her. Apart from that, like they couldn't call the police because it's not breaking the law over there. So that's the level of control. And I think, you know, with the murders have dropped down, so I think Vincent's right, they're using other means. And I was speaking to some people at the Note of Violence conference and I sat in on a meeting with that the other day and a young female professor had done some research and we were speaking about this off camera before around young girls and they're young girls, young women experience of technology and dating and the control over it. And one of the things that I've been speaking to people about is, you know our kids, you know, we have trackers on their phones now because we love them, we worry where they are and some of the research that they are coming back with. So when these girls go into a relationship and the boyfriend says, oh, we'll put a tracker on your phone, they relate that to well, that's what people who love me doing. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. I think we were talking about the Apple tags and all that, you know, and I've heard people say, oh, well you put that on things of value, So if my partner wants it to be in my car, that's what I think. It is frightening.
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Speaker 1: It is again that's technology overtaking us. And it was hard to track people. Now it's quite easy to track people. If we look at domestic violence, breaking it down wise of the curve, which is you know that society issues and we talked in part one about what young boys are being exposed to when it does start to happen. I think coercive control is a good thing, as in the legislation coming in. I think it's good because from a policing point of view. I don't know about you, Vince, but I always had problems with you walk into a domestic violence situation unless someone's being a soulted, even you know you know the person's going to be a soult at the moment you walk out the door. If the offence hadn't been committed, you were sort of powerless in what you could do. So coercive control it's complex. I think it'll be interesting how the courts process it, how the police investigate it. Then you've got the AVOs when yeah, invariably you see a build up. It's like a timeline too. When it gets to the extreme of murder, it's like a timeline. It's murdering slow motion. You see, initially there's an assault, then they start stalking the person. Then you know happens like that. Whether we put the circuit breaker in for the AVOs, are they good enough? And I want to talk about ankle bracelets too, if someone is being charged or I think you said put chips in them like dogs would be our specie.
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Speaker 2: Well, actually we'll get to that.
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Speaker 1: I think we've got to try. And you know, the actual murders might have been reduced, but still there's too much domestic violence, and any incident of domestic violence is something that we've got to work on. Then you guys come in with this plan, and initially when we sat down for a coffee, it made a lot of sense to me because, Okay, someone breaches the AVA, they get put in prison. Are they getting any counseling or any direction or are they sitting in a cell with another angry man going all women are bitches, blah blah blah, and it's just whipping it up and look what she's done to me. We're not teaching them anything. Then they get out. But the program that you guys were talking about, there's a circuit breaker in there, something creative. So do you want to explain that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, sayer men say for families is what the programs called. And you know, as I said, I've worked in domestic violence, I've worked in new service. In new Services, we had sixty eight kids. They are all there because of domestic violence. It's you know, because the family homes. It's a huge problem. And I kept saying the same thing is like what we do is, you know, there's an incident and we grab mum and the kids and scamper and a lot of the time, and he's left in the house. And I thought, it's insane. And I don't know if you've been to a women's refuge, but the best ones are shit.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, a good place now.
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Speaker 2: And the other thing I saw when I was worked in youth services, and I don't know what's in the food or the chicken the kids eat today, but the boys are so much bigger, so the family would escape, And twelve thirteen year old boys can't go into the refuge because they're too big and they scare the other women. So not only does mum escaping with the kids, then they're then separating. They've got to send the boy to a youth service because he's too big. And I go, this is insane. And again from you know, I've spent half my career working with youth and my own experience is that we know that schools and education and sporting and community are the best protective factor for all those sort of things. Yet we're taking mum and the kids out. And when I went around and spoke to all the women's services, and I did, I spoke to some victims survivors because I had this idea, but I thought, like, if they don't, yeah, you know, first I went to the judiciary and they agreed, and then I went to the you know, and one hundred percent they all went, oh, this would be so much different. Two things that was interesting. They said, if the so our idea is mum and the kids stay in the house, we removed the mail and were bringing in protective fact he would come into it.
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Speaker 1: Can we just break it down so people are following it? Domestic situation in a suburban house. Police have attended often that it would be a situation that the women would go into a refuge and take the children. What you're suggesting is that the women stay in the place. But then the risk from the police point of view and from the potential victims is are they safe there?
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Speaker 2: Yep?
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Speaker 1: Because if the person, if the male gets taken away, charged, possibly gets bail, do they feel safe in that environment? You're sort of flipping it and saying, well, let the women stay there. If the man is charged that then they go what you're suggesting into.
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Speaker 2: Our service, so they would be bailed to our service and we already have that experience now, you know.
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Speaker 1: Can you just explain the service, So people like the rain Bay say you've got accommodation there, so the man could be taken away if there is domestic situation, the women and children are staying in the place, the man's taken away, taken to the police station. At the police station without what you're talking about, the only options are, well, you get bail or you get held in custody. What you're saying is that they could get bail.
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Speaker 2: To our service service. So too it is, and this is where Vincent's idea came into it. He's frustration. I'm sure you wouldn't know was a lot of the public don't realize that most AVOs are contact AVOs. I speak to general public, and they think if you get an OVO, you can't go back and see the person, you can't go near them. That's actually not true. Yeah, there's usually you can. Most a vos are contact. Then they might say you can't be there if you're drunk in twelve hours from other things. But the public's idea of what I know is in the reality is different, you know, So generally, you know, I think, as Vincent said to me, they'd come to the police station, you knew they're going to get police bar it's not bad enough, you know. I think Vince said to me, you release him and you know six hours, Ay be back at the Brown's house.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.
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Speaker 2: And Vincent would say, you know, you say, have you got somewhere to go for the night at least, you know. And even when I thought about that, I thought, on what do you do? You go to your mate's house and have six beers and this and that, you know, And because it wasn't in my first idea, and I thought, wow, we need a circuit breaker. So the two ideas were the program is so the police would arrest the person, come back place in Ava and they would bail them to our service. So generally, as you guys are not of the public, know, so when you're arrested and into police custody, you generally have to go before a magistrate within seven days, you know what I mean for that to be kept going where they will keep you in custody, or the magistrate may make a bailed determination that you can go back into the community with more restrictions, you know, the police at the sergeant. That's just the first instance of it, you know. So our idea was in the first instance, so they referred to our service, so they're not home, so mum's safe. We would bring in our organization Wayjeck to work with mum straight away. So as soon as they are referred to us, we would call waycheck and have a work and they go out to mum and the family. That doesn't happen now at best, if you're a victim of domestic violence, I think if you go over the police matrix, they then refer you to us out and they got to call you within seventy two hours or that's our currency. This they would have a worker straightaway out there. If the police dean that this person, the man can come into our service. He would come in for seven days initially before he goes before the magistrate. We would work with him with psychologists and give him some interview.
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Speaker 1: You have psychologists set up there, yeah, yeah, to do with this.
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Speaker 2: The case work will be working with mum and the kids about what they want. Because one of the things that was brought to my attention and our current system, the police come in and all that. If mum and the kids get a service, generally, what happens is we've got a better refuge, You've got an hour to make a determination on whether you want to go, cause the bet'll go our way. They've got seven days so I don't have to make any rash decision. They've got their own worker so mum and the kids can talk to them. And the other thing that was really important, and this is what the courts liked and the victim survivors liked, was that they'll write a letter. So mum and the kids will actually get to write a letter to the magistrate so when he comes up before about what they would like, because that doesn't happen now, you know, as you know, a magistrate at best gets it from the police face, which is scratchy, you know what I mean, And you know he generally doesn't turn up. She doesn't turn up. It's not safe. So the magistrate's trying to make a determination of police facts with ours. So you know, wayjeck worker would work with mum and they write a letter to court on the outcome they would like or conditions they would like, and we would work with the mail and we would put forward our recommendations with a psychologist about what we think would work, and then of course the police would put their position and then the magistrate and the magistrate said to us, that would be amazing that we would be able to make this determination, a much more informed determination. And so at best if they go I know, look, we think he can go home. They would let him go home, but he's had seven days from the incident. And as I think you guys both told me, at the most dangerous time for a woman is within fourteen days of the initial AVO being put in place.
00:19:26
Speaker 1: So that seven days. What interests me about it because I worry, I just know the mentality of someone put in a cell for seven days. They're going to come out angry. They might say they're sorry, but they're going to be in there with other people that have done the same thing. That's seven days. At your establishment, you've got councilor as psychologists, you've got people.
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Speaker 2: Men's programs that they're doing pretty intensive seven days. Because one of the things the way to do is a bit like poking the bear. So they have no contact with her. So what we want to know is because as you would know, so a lot of the times they'll get family, the mom, the brother, sister. Yeah, so we'll know that in real because at the moment, we work in silos you know, the man, we might bail and somewhere else you can't go home and the women's waiting for that phone call. With this way, we're working in real time. So if he's you know, waygek will call us gone like he's just had the mum contact her over social media threat and boom, So we can take that straight to the courts and this is what the magistrate like. So because our current system is we give them a navy ar and wait for that to breach it. Yeah, with no super you know, and that's.
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Speaker 1: A claud You're you're in that seven day program that they're there. You're challenging on things that it's not the just settle down and don't do anything for the next week and you'll be fine and then they move on. You've got people that have done that.
00:20:52
Speaker 2: It's intensive. It's intensive. It's interesting. I had the the act Minister of Corrections was in Sydney and she wrung me up and said, oh, can I come and talk to you and visit and we got talking about that program and part of the program is that they have to cook and clean and she was chuckling. I said, no, no, it's about breaking down all those stereotypical. You don't have the power here, you know what I mean, Like, this is the system, that's how it goes. I'll be doing men's groups, forensic psychologists in that seven days, you know, to really have a look because what we're hoping for those that are at the start is there's a circuit break and we can refer them off to places and point out some stuff and if they play up when they go back to court and they're so they're on house arrest.
00:21:40
Speaker 1: We already did that at Rainbow conditions.
00:21:42
Speaker 2: So they're at Rainbow now. We have men baled there who are on house arrest, so they cannot leave Rainbow without staff now, and we already do this. We do one of them with her out through Judge Beckett at Paramatta. We have a system that we've had seven come through. The've all completed, so we go back every month, you know, and they'll lessen the bail if they've done all right, or they'll street and you make it strict, you know, up to an including they'll remove the bar and send them to custody if they play up. But we're doing it. It's proactive, so we want to get them before they do that.
00:22:14
Speaker 1: Next, what we're described up until this point, Why do you see the benefits?
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Speaker 3: Oh look, first of all, yeah, bizarrely were saying this keeps them out of the criminal justice system straight into jail. I think what's really important is that different people react to different pressures or stresses to readjust their behavior. So you can't just put everyone in jail. As much as you know, sometimes I would like to think that that would be the easiest way, but of course there's massive downsides to that. But people will react differently to different pressures on their life, positive pressures. Like Claude said, you poke the bear to hold them to account, just to see Yeah, yeah, because bullshit, you know what I mean.
00:22:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'd rather poke the bear under those controlled yes, then going up then you know, him saying all the right stuff and going home to Mum and the kids and going you know, and to also know our experience and not everyone. But you know this ten percent of man, we can't help. Yeah, they're no good. They need to be in present. We don't say it, but we think that there's ninety percent of and we see that broken down into two lights. Sixty percent are those who have grown up in domestic family violence and learned it at Rainbow. Ninety six percent of the men that come to us have grown up in family and domestic violence homes, and ninety percent go on to have, if not their index offense, at least some sort of So there's a cause and effect. And that sixty percent we see are generally non white or low socioeconomic white people. The other thirty percent of the middle upper class white guys, where it's more of an entitlement thing and they're more difficult. And again the minister from ACT he said, oh, how are you going to get them two together? And our thinking is that can you imagine sitting in a group. You're the middle class up of a white guy and you're behaving this way, and the guy next year, who's grown up in the he's your son. He's what you're doing to your children. She went, oh, my god, like personal, Yeah, so we're really like the guy next year is talking about what his dad did, and he's really talking about the guy next to him. That's exactly right, I mean, because the other thing we found was at the moment with our men's change programs is they focus on you got to stop doing it because you're heard in her, which is someone who's had done crime and crowd.
00:24:33
Speaker 3: It doesn't give it for you, for you to do it for you.
00:24:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're innately selfish humans and you're in conflict with that person. So I looked at some stuff around the world and I found I think was out of Oxford University did some men's change programs in the UK where they change the focus to the kids and their success rate jump by fifty percent. So our program we don't work with only with families, so we're with kids because we know that if we're to change domestic violence in Australia, it has to be intergenerational, so you have to stop the kids impact. So we don't work with people who don't have kids. It is all based on the kids. So you think if we challenge them that ninety percent and we're not going to get It's not a golden thing. It's not going to make it perfect. But we do believe it's different than what we've got now sending them to prison, you know, where they're just learning getting well.
00:25:28
Speaker 1: I think what's good about that system too. With domestic violence, by the nature of the crime, it's done behind closed doors, so it's you very rarely see domestic violence carried out in public like where people are watching because it's a shameful, shameful rhyme. And if they commit those offenses and no one's actually challenging. But then if they landed in your environment, you're actually calling them on the bullshit. Yeah, And I think that's what because.
00:25:54
Speaker 2: In a control in safe environ and when I.
00:25:57
Speaker 1: Just can't control myself, no no, I fuck, you can control yourself. You choose not to control yourself when that's behind closed doors, but in public, you're not going to go around slapping your wife. But you'll do that when the doors are closed. And I would imagine they're the type of conversations that you guys would be having in that em.
00:26:13
Speaker 2: Fact, similar to a rainbow, but more intense. So the idea is that they'll be seeing the psychologists weekly. There'll be groups, two groups a day, men's groups and all that. And what we see the five drivers I think I got this right is drugs, alcohol, financial techno, gambling, and pornography. Now, pornography is the thing we don't do well in this country. The Americans are decades ahead of us. All the evidence tells us. And I think especially when it's homicide related domestic violence, the impact of pornography and violent expertise like, yeah, so it's an area and when I bring it up, people go yees, especially women. It surprised me when I spoke to services how they said the amount of women who were made to watch or act out pornographic scenes that the husband had watched.
00:27:05
Speaker 1: I haven't had this type of discussion about the pornography and the impact that's had. I hear you people make comments of pornography and it says the store of the view for kids that see it on what their sex life should be. But I didn't. You're the first one I've sat down talking about how that can play out in the way the crimes are committed.
00:27:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's it's another expectation, another form of control, you know. Yeah, you're my partner, my what whatever? You need to do this to satisfy mate, you know, so just another level of control. I'm lucky that I know someone who's actually been to America and trained in diversionary programs, the systems there, you know that he went on and learn off is So if you're on a few Google porn or what on your computer, it shoots an email to a support person to hold each other accountable, to go hey, I've just got it, and you can ring them and go, hey, Gary, I just got a notification. Because it's crazy how much time and money people can spend on it, and that becomes their reality, and then so it becomes the expectation of their partner, you know. And you know from the stuff that I've read, the especially where there's homicides involved where the women say they're are raped and we and you go, but they're married, you know, but it's not like that, you know what I mean. And the other one, the financial one, and gambling is gambling. I call it the silent killer. I can't smell it, you can't see it, and you know, I think we are the worst gamblers in the world in Australia. So I think those five drive there, that's what we see. And then the second part of it is that we don't do well at the moment is giving the guys parenting programs, a circle of security, keeping kids in mind, post separation, program tuning into teams. We don't give them the resources. So one of the antidotal stuff that we've got from the guys who come through rain but they all say this story to me eighteen years old. I don't want to hurt my family like my dad does. I don't want to drink like my dad does, and I don't want to take drugs like my dad does. Like magine having an eight and ten year olds having to already know that that goes. Yeah, but we leave them in that environment, right, And what they all say is the first time a stressor comes into their lives when they're in a relationship, it's like it's in their daynight they're doing it and they're like fuck, I'm like my dad. So they're going to shame. So what do they do? Drink? Drug and then just you know, the police and this in this cycle and it's quite crazy and I just go wow. So like a lot, what we see in crime is, you know, we deal with them and punishing them for their response to being let down by society. And I don't think we like to admit it, but what we do is we've created these children who become men and our response to it. And you know, I saw this with you know, minister did the other day. You know, one hundred and twenty eight million dollars on juvenile more juvenile prisons and making rebe which is our ten to fifteen year old prison out in the Western Bigger We criminalize the kids trauma response to their abuse.
00:30:05
Speaker 1: And you put them in the system and it's always becomes probably.
00:30:09
Speaker 2: To Rainbow Lodge again, seventy five percent of the men that come to us have juvenile justice engagement, so we know it's a it's not a circuit breaker.
00:30:18
Speaker 1: It's a great way to So this program that you're talking about, have you had people coming through and seeing you being able to document the success.
00:30:28
Speaker 2: From Well, we haven't. We haven't got it off the ground. We've got bits of it running, but we haven't got the funding yet from the government.
00:30:34
Speaker 1: Okay, unfortunately you too can't get funding from the government. Yeah, i'll pay you if you to just keep attacking from one left side right side.
00:30:43
Speaker 2: Had a meeting on Monday, to.
00:30:45
Speaker 1: Me, if you're just looking at it from a fiscal point of view, it makes a lot of sense to put money into a project like that that could reduce it.
00:30:53
Speaker 2: When we were in the meeting with Rose Jackson, the Minister Housing, going like, it's a no brainer for us, because one of the things I thought was we're getting the man out in the most safe way. But the reality is when I went and did the research, fifty percent of the women want the relation to continue. They want the violence to stop. And I was like, oh, I have to think about this. It's much more complex than another level than that. And I was like, all right, so we have two streams. We've either got to work with the man so they can come back into the family in a healthy way, or we have to exit them from the family in the most the least damaging way that's safe for everyone. And you know, Rowe said at that meeting, you know, much easier if we've got to get the man out of the house. He does your program to house one man than a wife with three kids, a woman with three kids, you know, like it's a no brainer.
00:31:40
Speaker 1: Or the costs of if you incarcerated the men.
00:31:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, you brought up and said, like, I know, I do some work with Habitat for Humanity and Greg who's one of the guys there. You know, they just built this, they were halfway through building this new Aboriginal DV refuge out of Mount Drudinney and he was despondent. He's like, we're not even halfway through on, it's full, it's booked out. Yeah, yeah, we can't keep this doesn't work. This is insanity. And that's the other thing where I hate this idea. We celebrate the opening of a new women's refuge, I go, that's a famil Yeah, and we sell it like that we're failing. And it's not that we don't need those services, but it's not We shouldn't be celebrated. We should be sitting there going we're aiming another one and we shouldn't be we're not doing something right.
00:32:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're.
00:32:26
Speaker 3: Probably not saying anything new to anyone. We've been in meetings with various ministers card and I. You know, you go in and ask for a poultry, say six hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars now in the overall budget of New South Wales government, that's nothing.
00:32:42
Speaker 1: What the figures you were talking? What did you say then?
00:32:45
Speaker 2: Six six hundred thousand for me?
00:32:47
Speaker 1: But I look at the look at if we have a protest in the city, you know that, Yeah, well yeah, how much would you? Yeah? And I'm not saying we don't need the police, but that puts it in perspective.
00:32:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, over time, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And what.
00:33:02
Speaker 1: We're talking about is that we're trying to stop the victims. We're trying to stop the perpetrators. But if it's victims each time, and then the flow on effect and you've identified or one of you spoke about the amount of people that have grown up in the domestic violence situation end up back in the system in some capacity.
00:33:21
Speaker 2: The other thing that was interesting and our data and I spoke to the police in our area, is that the average male offender will have three victims in their domestic violence offending cycle. So we get mum and kids out the first we're two behind. I emphatically know this and I'm not one of these guys, and I tellent to fuck off. Pardon the language, you know, when they go, oh, what about the male victims? Like, seriously, it's so it's so small. The reality is eighty five percent of all violence is committed by men, sixty six percent of that against other men. But we are the violent people, right, So if manner the problem, the manner the solution. So if we can pull that man in, and yes, he's affected one family, but if we can do something so he doesn't affect the next two, like we've won. And even if we did that half the time, compared to what we're doing now, you imagine those women and children go out without the impact of that trauma. And on top of that, the cost. Like on Monday, you know, we asked the government for six point one million dollars to run the program. That included about five hundred thousand dollars set up costs. It's about one point seven million to run it for over three years, and that includes working with the men and with the women. I had a philanthropic organization already talk about giving us a million dollars to help the women because one of the things that we identified was to keep the women safe. So we want to be able in real time. If we bring him into our service, change the locks, put security reals on, pull camera, whatever they need, whatever they believe, not what we think they whatever they believe they need in that house to feel safer. We can do in real time. We don't have to fill out a bit of paper and send it off and try and get some money. We need to be able to do this in real time. So I was horrendous to understand, you know, the amount of pets that were put down because you can't take pets with you when you leave.
00:35:12
Speaker 3: Oh no, I didn't thought of that yet.
00:35:13
Speaker 2: And the impact on children, teams or that the kids have to learn. And the thing that really blew me away when I went to this refuge was the amount of hatred the kids had towards mum because you know, she's making it.
00:35:29
Speaker 1: A good man well their environment, you know.
00:35:35
Speaker 2: And again I went to five schools. You know, most people that you guys would have interceded with in your career had that, you know, broken families, no role models, lots of schools. Because what that does is you lose your connection and those relationships the formers, and it teaches you that everything's transactional. And I'm sorry, but we're man. We're not that smart and we're big are so when it comes down to it, we use our strengths. So if we don't teach man emotional intelligence and I hate that word, yeah, I just hate it, Like his angers are really healthy. Emotion rage isn't. And that's our expression of that is the problem. You know, we men rage Like I grew up in the seventies, you know, where you fucking didn't talk about shit, Like I don't remember my dad ever telling me you love me? You know, my ten year old daughter, she's fucking sick of it. Oh god, dad, you know what I mean.
00:36:33
Speaker 1: The program that you're talking about, it makes a lot of sense to me from a practical point of view, looking at it from a policing point of view, but now also looking at it from where I sit now speaking to people who have been caught up in the system. Vince, you're obviously a believer in it.
00:36:49
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean Claude summed it up is yeah.
00:36:53
Speaker 1: Perfect, Okay, So we can't get funding for it, not currently? So yeah, you know where else do you put where else do you put money into prison?
00:37:04
Speaker 3: Well?
00:37:05
Speaker 2: You know, I wrote a post on LinkedIn.
00:37:07
Speaker 1: Sorry, we're just I'm thinking because it's trying to mountain argument. We're sure the police and there is yeah, that's accepted that there is a shure the gin New South Wales and I think pretty much across the country of police. And then there's also the situation that the police time taken up with domestic violence is yeah.
00:37:28
Speaker 2: Six I think mount drawid.
00:37:32
Speaker 3: I've got a mate who's between Paramatta. What cities out of western suburbs eighty five percent of police work is domestic violence.
00:37:43
Speaker 1: Okay, so eighty five, I.
00:37:46
Speaker 2: Remember you telling me a story when you're at Mount Druid that I think in your whole shift there was twenty callers and all domestic violce like it's insane.
00:37:54
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're not accountants or economists or whatever. However, and if you did the figures, you could solve a lot of problems by solving domestic violence. And then the flow on effect, the negative offense of it, not just the victims, the impact that has on the children caught up in domestic violence and the flow on effect for their life, the shortage of police and the percentage of time spent investigating or being called out to domestic violence situations. You'd be wanting to front through money at the project that could potentially prevent that from happening. And then the next time it's a front page and it'll be shock, horror, woman being killed domestic violence, and everyone will sit back and go that that's horrendous, We've got to do something about it. And well, we've got to do something about it before it happens. So yeah, keep well, I don't know, I don't want to get a call from the local police by these two storm Parliament House. I don't know, I didn't tell them to do that, but seriously, like all jokes aside, it's just serious things. But it does seem like a no brain and a practical, practical way of dealing with it, you know.
00:39:05
Speaker 2: And I wrote this post on LinkedIn, but you know what I brought it down to is the women and children, and especially First Nations women and children. Men don't have any political currency to the government. They don't have enough votes, they don't care.
00:39:18
Speaker 1: We're perhaps in a little bit cynical towards politicians that if something was introduced now, like the program that you're talking about, the benefits mightn't be immediate, might be after the next selection cycle.
00:39:32
Speaker 2: And then we said that with Rose Jackson, who Kinjin said. What I love about this is this is intergenerations are going to change the kids because we know that the parents are damaged, they're in the cycle. We hopefully can make their life better. But the real change to the community comes from removing the children from harm and giving them skills. Like that's the Jax's generation. When they become older, they know that that's not acceptable. Yeah, like that that is the real change. I think it is possible, but I think as we talked about before on air, like you know, we couldn't build the Snowy River dam.
00:40:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, because where's the immediate.
00:40:10
Speaker 2: There's no political currency in it.
00:40:13
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:40:13
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a way of approaching it, and I think it's got more berets merits than getting tough legislation that type of thing. And there was other statistics you sent the amount of people on remand now.
00:40:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, fifty New South ones.
00:40:29
Speaker 1: And I base this and I look at it like domestic violence, even when I was in the cops and even in my role now, a lot of it. I see at the tail end of it when someone's been murdered and there's this trail of domestic violence leading up to its stalking, breaching avas and all that. I've been at pains to say, and I keep saying that that just seems to fall on death. Is about ankle bracelets. Now we call them ankle bracelets. That could be a ring in this day and age. But the tracking device if someone's with domestic violence and an AVA has been taken out and it's got to the point where you're not to approach or come within so many kilometers of the person in need of protection, a tracking device, I think a tracking device in the form will call it ankle bracelet. To me, it seems like a no brainer. And I've spoken to people that have lost their families domestic violence situation where AVOs have been breached, and each and every one of them that I've spoken to has said it would have helped because the victims living in fear of their life. It's almost like, you know, this murder, this horrendous thing is going to happen.
00:41:36
Speaker 2: In slow but in slow motion.
00:41:38
Speaker 1: But if you've got a tracking device, if you two in conflict, and any time that you come within five kilometers of clawed notification, you get notified. Now that has to give you a degree of And then I've raised and a few people said, oh, but the technology sometimes it breaks down. Okay, if it runs out of battery, you get notified. Anyway, we don't know where the person is.
00:42:01
Speaker 2: They're actually if you're wearing a bracelet, because it is your responsibility under the condition. So if it runs out about you, it's actually a breach. That's a breach because I know because I've had guys at my service on a s O s who are on bracelets and that is a breach.
00:42:17
Speaker 1: Condition and my concern. I know they're bordered in some incidents, but why across the board. That might be the first time someone's charged with an a v O. But when they breach that, okay, they've shown that they're not respecting the piece of paper it's written on. You are now a going to we're tracking device.
00:42:37
Speaker 2: I think it comes down to we have different views on O vos. I think mandatory as are wrong, and the police and everyone's overwhelmed they mean nothing, Whereas I know I've had conversation with Vincent and you said you've done some incident or research that targeted AVOs. Stop certainly, I think you said that that stops men who have something to lose. Then I see the guys who are in the criminal system, we don't give a shit. Yeah. So you know what I see at the moment is we just have this one size fits all.
00:43:06
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:43:06
Speaker 2: And you know, and I hear this, I go, oh, you know the police did nothing, And I go yeah, because you're the twenty person that's come into the desk that day. You know, when they go out there and nothing's done, nobody wants to make a report because they're so overwhelmed. Every time they go to something, they've got to put an AVO on someone.
00:43:22
Speaker 3: You know, I think I can't remem if it was last ye year before. Just rounding it up, there was fifty thousand abos taken out in New South Wales. Twenty two thousand were breached.
00:43:33
Speaker 2: There's just not enough people in the world that could even So that's my thing is why aren't we using the tools. We haven't targeted them, Like if it works on those men, then why aren't we targeting those man And the ones that it doesn't work on, then why aren't we using brak You know what I mean?
00:43:50
Speaker 1: I think it has to be a multi layer. There's one that I'm dealing with and this just irks me. Audrey Griffin who has murdered on the Central Coase twelve and a half months ago, nineen year old girl walking home from a hotel and she's found deceased in a river at Gosford. The person that was charged with it. There was failings in the initial investigation because they raided it off as a misadventure, which was outrageous. But when he was charged with the murder, when they eventually agreed it was suspicious and tracked the person down. He was charged with murder and eleven breaches of avis over a couple of months period of time. Eleven. Now this wasn't on the victim, that was on his ex wife. The breaches were does. Yeah, so it shows a pat This person went to prison and he took his own life three or four days after he was arrested. But that history there, He had a history of violence, and the system, whether it's and I'm not blaming individual, I'm just saying the system didn't identify that. I look at and I look at it and go, what the hell that was always going to happen? That someone was going to pay for this and it was just a random stranger. She was walking home. He'd been harassing his ex wife. He was angry and she was.
00:45:15
Speaker 2: Surely with the technology of availables, with AI and all that, we can take the human error part out of it and make it at least flag instances.
00:45:25
Speaker 1: I think there needs to And this is whether it's more training in police or whether we haven't got the experience in policing. But the offense of stalking always concerns me, and invariably if you see a murder that there's been some stalking beforehand, it doesn't seem to be given the weight of concern that shouldn't do you Do you agree with.
00:45:43
Speaker 2: That we're normal normalized.
00:45:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, just going back to the coorship control and what stalking can be a part of it. It's not a criminal offense. Like that girl, that woman who had that list on her frie that in itself, it's not a criminal offense. It's not a criminal offense. If you and I are in a relationship and I just ship bagged you, it's not a criminal offense. It's not a criminal offense. And most people do it. There could be in the relationship, one person that does the budgeting. None of those things are criminal offense in themselves, but collectively they are. It's coercive control. There's more to domestic violence than just the physical and I would agree totally that it was. And it's really crass to say that charging someone with a physical assault it was much easier and they say they had a.
00:46:33
Speaker 1: Black eye, that's what you're looking for.
00:46:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's so much easier.
00:46:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I think with domestic violence so many ways that we've got to try and prevent it. Don't Let It Repeat, which is a program that you guys are talking about that that potentially could break the cycle. I think we need to protect victims. And like you know, we talk technology is causing crime, Well, let's use technology to prevent crime. I think these are the type of things that need that need to be done. To really hit on the domestic violence.
00:47:04
Speaker 2: We need the political willwhere you know, I tell you one of the things I see that's a real problem when I go to meetings with my work and all that. And I was down here at uts just up the road, Jess Hill, Tanya Plebsek and another professor was speaking about domestic violence one hundred and forty in the room.
00:47:23
Speaker 3: Let me guessed, I have no idea what you're going to say next, wrong and take a punt.
00:47:27
Speaker 2: Four men, yeah, six maybe. And that's the problem until the room. You know, even at the Note of Violence conference, you know there was more, but you know, I see the problem. Until the room's half man, we're not going to solve it. And Ivan who runs our Aboriginal stuff, where he was speaking out of Paul Ramsey breakfast this morning, and somebody in the audience said, oh, you know what we what's the problem with domestic violence? And he said this room. She was like, you know, there's one hundred people who was like ninety five women and five men in change too.
00:47:59
Speaker 1: And I think men do have responsibility with domestic violence. Like we go out to a pub, you sit round and we're all seeing there joking, and you'll say something derogatory about your partner and no one checks your watch. Domestic violence happens behind closed doors, and people that commit it put little feelers out. She's going to yell at me when they get home, she's going to be in trouble. We should call those blokes out. I think good men need to stand up to you.
00:48:25
Speaker 3: You have to go.
00:48:26
Speaker 2: And this is what when I speak to the boys at the schools is what I say to them. My mates don't ring out and say let's get smashed. Let's shes a this. They ring me out and go And this is not like it's painful. It hurts. Yeah, we're not saying it's not. But that's what you don't need to destroy hurt the person into that, you know what I mean. And I say to these boys, I said, you know the next time you're in that WhatsApp group and they're going to make the fake be the one to go. I don't want to do that. I said, you can leave the group, but it's even better to go. No, we don't do that. We don't need to do this. You know, that's where change comes. And I say, and I speak to them about you know, I've been in jail and hung with, you know, not good people and been a not good person myself friends, and yeah, yeah, but change. One of the things that I learned when I stopped using drugs, and that was I had to learn how to be a man. And I was very lucky.
00:49:17
Speaker 3: You know.
00:49:17
Speaker 2: I went to Narcotics Synonymous, and I had a really strong group of men who said to me, you know that shit, we got to sports. It ain't serving us. It doesn't serve us, you know what I mean. And I heard this man who's my sponsor at this Amen's me's like two hundred and fifty men. I'm not long out of jail. I was still in rehab, and you know, he spoke about how he loved his wife and his children, and I was thinking, I've never and no one in the audis is going, oh, you're weak. Fucking you know, I laugh, and I was just like like a litter a flame in me. I thought, Wow, like that's I didn't even know, but I thought, that's what I've been searching for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I want. Not there, you know, because people go, oh, you've been shot, you've been in jail. All those things I did because I was terrified, because I was tough, you know, and you know, being able to sit down with my daughter and have her say to me, I don't like it when you raise your voice, you know what I mean, called on it. Yeah, that's the stuff you want to do.
00:50:11
Speaker 1: Whining back with the right at the start, when we're talking about resilience in men and being able to handle rejection, that's where you see. It happened a lot too where I don't want to go out with you, and that's sort of this sense of entitlement. We've got to change that, the narrative of thinking of blakes were bad mate, she doesn't like you walk away from it.
00:50:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, thats right, the end of the world. No, there's lots of other people, and there's lots of reasons why we don't connect. You know, I've been married and divorce I think you've had a couple all right, Vince is still doing I can't know. I don't know how, but you know what I mean. Like it is a like you have different relationships at different times where you're in different places for different reasons, you know. And even people have been married a long time, you know, separate and move apart, you know, because they've like I don't think it's a bad thing, no, you know, I don't often, but sometimes I run men's group at Rainbow. I'll usually let the other bit up on the boss. So it's hard. But when I do one of the questions I give to them and I say them, and that horrifies them. I go, you know, your partner, your wife has every right to have sex with her as she wants. Fuck. They just you know what I mean? And they like no, no, and I go, no, she is as you are. The thing is, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, and that's not there's a difference that's really hurtful, and that's really painful. That the thing for you, as a man in it is to remove yourself, to take that and go this is not right for me. That's the thing you do is to go, oh, she's shown me she is and vice versa. Not to goh like, if they're doing that, there's obviously a problem. And I think this comes back to the rejection, this idea our current system is to I think we can grab them and strangle them back into our love. But you know what I mean, and it really challenges them when I bring it under it like you can provocative question it is it is? But it's true. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. You know, and honor yourself, yeah, and separate. That doesn't mean it's okay and painful.
00:52:28
Speaker 1: You know.
00:52:28
Speaker 2: I had a good friend of mine, you know, and his brother slept with his partner. Was but everyone got through it, you know what I mean. That's everyone got through it.
00:52:37
Speaker 1: Well, they're tough conversations and they went.
00:52:40
Speaker 2: To their mum's funeral together and carried the coffin. And I'm telling you it was painful and crazy, you know what I mean. That's it's not that you know, that's what people think. If I don't react like this way, it's not hurting No, it's hurting me. And I think that comes back to the thing with rejection. You know, we teach algebra, but we don't teach conflict resolution and relation.
00:53:02
Speaker 1: Going very broad here, but should more of that stuff be taught in schools? The form of the years?
00:53:10
Speaker 2: You know, as I said earlier, you know the research from notive violence and other stuff. They're talking five and six year old boys need to be started.
00:53:16
Speaker 1: You know, Well that that might be the way we swing the balance back in our favor of what they're exposed to in social media and in today's world. We need to bring good on the school, like survival skills for life.
00:53:28
Speaker 2: Well, if you look at it in one of the professors I spoke to it, the note of violence had been a school teacher and was a professor now, so you know, and I grew up my mum was a school teacher. I'd never go to a school teacher. And then you're in class all the time. But there is no other time in life that we potentially have our citizens together in years place where they're going six hours a day. Like we just missed these opportunities to really set some parameters of.
00:54:00
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny we've come around to this, like the education, because I always one of my frustrations is the state elections. If it becomes a law and the order issue, and we're going to we're going to crack down on this. We're going to do this. I've always said, look, we don't need more police, but more teachers or better teachers or quality teachers I think will definitely the way they go.
00:54:22
Speaker 2: And I you know, when I speak to people, I usually to these two narratives, you know. I speak about the impact and trauma that people who go on to mant crimes. And then there's usually more wealthy people. I don't use that because I don't really give two fucks about little Johnny. I speak about, you know, in this country, your private health insurance doesn't help you in a car crash. You go to the public hospital if you want to wait six hours. That's because we were in prison, Johnny. Because every time you in prison, Johnny, that's a teacher, a doctor, a nurse that we don't pay for. And I look at it, you know, and I said to this guy, and this time, he's worth hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, I said, can you imagine if a teach which is in a class with eight kids instead of twenty eight, Little Johnny who in the class of twenty eight is bad. And I was little Johnny gets put up the back and left for his own path. That ends up in the system of cos. You know, I think I worked out over my criminal. He's across the community five million.
00:55:19
Speaker 1: It's frightening, isn't it.
00:55:20
Speaker 2: I appealed my thing to the Court of Criminal Appeal and.
00:55:25
Speaker 1: That's what that's what we got after spend no value.
00:55:32
Speaker 2: I appealed one of my cases that are in the district Court to the Criminal Court of Appeal and got a five thousand dollars a day public defender.
00:55:38
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
00:55:39
Speaker 2: And you know, honestly, when I look at it and this is about like this has taken me years to heal and go fuck like, this is not okay. I did it because I was in prison.
00:55:47
Speaker 1: I had nothing matter understandable from what you're saying. But that's when it comes down to a way of looking at the problems. If you look at it just from a fiscal point of view, crime costs so much my.
00:55:59
Speaker 2: Daughter's school to give them paper towel and all that. I'm thinking, and they're giving me a public defended. You know, Annabel who's on the president on the board and spent at Rainbow and spent a lot of years. You know, she goes give them one hundred and thirty grand a year to buy their drugs. I won't ever commit any crime. Well say, it's all for drama.
00:56:19
Speaker 1: Tim Watson Monroe, the criminal psychologist. He was talking about the money spent in prisons for each inmate. They could virtually have their own psychologists to point them.
00:56:30
Speaker 2: Talking around and talks about that. You could get a social work follow and the kids like in New South Wales a million dollars to keep a kidding in juvenile prison and I think it's ninety nine point four percent will never be convicted and certain sentence. All their juvenile detention is remand it's crazy, It is crazy. A million you know, imagine if you put that money into schooling and educator and now you know, back in the old days you could do education and stuff in prison. They've removed all that. You know, there's no money for it now. Whereas again, you know, and I do believe people need to go to prison, you know what I mean. And you know I didn't go to prison for something I didn't do it.
00:57:17
Speaker 3: You know, he probably could have gone to prison longer, a lot lot more you ca him now.
00:57:23
Speaker 2: You know, but I go again, it's a bit like the thirteen years we have them at school. If we're going to have these people, you know, because in this country the worst thing we do to people who has removed their liberty. Yeah, so I think we have a responsibility to do something while we have them, not fucking have them put in headphones in quantus things, you know what I mean for nine dollars a day, like surely the And again when I've spoken to people, they're stunned when I go, oh, no, I went to drugs for crime. Do they make No, I didn't do any programs, not until the end of my sentence.
00:57:54
Speaker 3: They're like, what you know?
00:57:55
Speaker 2: And people think if you go to jail for domestic violence you have to do preg you know, the general public. When you speak, they go, why don't we know that? And I go because there's no vesting interest in telling you that.
00:58:07
Speaker 3: You know.
00:58:08
Speaker 2: The criminal system so police, prisons and courts is ten billion dollars just in New South Wales. Yeah, you know, I took. I had a new caseworker starting. She's an English girl at my work and we were not at the dann In Center was closed. You know, the tall the Federal building at the other end was sitting there. I said, watch this, have a look at all the fat, old white guys who are lawyers who have become rich off the disparity soide, and she was just like, I've never looked at it, like look like it was like they were all out of a mile.
00:58:42
Speaker 3: Yes, fucking you know what I mean.
00:58:45
Speaker 2: Like it's a business. I spoke at a domestic violencing a couple of years ago, and last year I was in a Hunter correction with the same as Macquarie and this lady come on up. I'm thinking, oh, she goes, I was there when you spoke. I haven't met I was stopped thinking about that. And you explain it's a business, the money, like people have got rich off this.
00:59:06
Speaker 1: It's an industry.
00:59:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's immoral. Yeah you no, it is. You know what I mean, Like you go you go to trial or trial because hundred thousand dollars a day.
00:59:14
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and the poor buses at Saint Mary's Mount Penrith they can't afford that.
00:59:19
Speaker 2: No, no, And that's why I say, there's you know, three levels of justice. There's the white system, the black system, and then the one you can afford and they're all vastly different outcomes. And I think there was some stuff today I saw on the in the news or something about, you know, that a black person was more likely to be shot than a wide offender.
00:59:38
Speaker 3: You know, I mean domestic violence in far western New South Wales by the Bureau Crime Statistic.
00:59:43
Speaker 2: It's crazy.
00:59:43
Speaker 3: It's just nearly four times higher than we were saying.
00:59:47
Speaker 2: The Aboriginal guy who's on the run still, yeah, who killed two or three? You know, but it's not.
00:59:54
Speaker 1: In the meeting, we were talking off camera about well we're recording this a couple of days after Desi Freeman was shot and killed by police. But there was also that triple murder up in northern New South Wales where a person is on the run and I haven't heard of it. Yeah, I haven't heard about that.
01:00:13
Speaker 2: I went out of the media quick. Yeah, they are Aboriginal. There is different outcomes.
01:00:17
Speaker 1: I had journalists contacting me after Desi Freeman had been shot and I mentioned that, well, yeah, that's one person that was on the run. There's another person that's on the run here in New South Wales. It's murdered three people. But again that's the disparity in resources that are put into put in the things.
01:00:34
Speaker 2: Well, it is and I'm not obviously not been a police officer. If I wasn't a criminal, I would have.
01:00:43
Speaker 1: If we weren't police, we would be. I am a criminal, but at least I've done both things.
01:00:50
Speaker 2: But if you look at the Desi freeman, he shot two police, which is bad, but they are actually doing a job. That one of the risks that you can get shot. The three people that the Aboriginal go murdered, we're just citizens, you know what I mean, Nothing in their day was said that they could get killed, right, you know, and it's not okay. You know, it's a risk of their job, so you know it is. And especially when they went to that because I'm pretty sure they had the bulletproofess and so there was a high risk arrest they are going to, so they knew there was risks involved in it. But the resources you look at that are put into that, and I think it's part of what you got back to because it puts fear in the community. If you're willing to kill the police, that scares us because if the police can't protect us, them are in trouble.
01:01:36
Speaker 1: That's that's right. That's why it's got to be looked at them the resources put into the air as they should be put into the other one. Guys, we're run out of.
01:01:45
Speaker 3: Time and didn't talk anything about what we wanted to.
01:01:48
Speaker 1: I just framed my notes out. Sorry, Vince, we haven't got time to talk about your remote control submarine, but there's and we didn't get time to talk about the prison system and all that. But let's let's try and get you guys back in in a couple of months. And I may as well keep these notes because I use them next time, because I didn't think i'd be able to control you too. But with the with the program. On the serious note, I seriously hope people start to look at ways of changing the problem. Because if we're doing the same thing over and over again that hasn't worked, well, it's not going to work. That's the definition, isn't it. So yeah, good good luck with it. Stay angry, we will, we will don't get locked up, saying Jubilan said to do this, but stay angry, keep annoying the politicians, and let's let's get you guys back again in a couple of months time. So if we've made any progress.
01:02:46
Speaker 2: With some good news.
01:02:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always great to catch up, either on camera or off camera.
01:02:51
Speaker 1: Now, can I just ask one question before we got that brace on your elbow? Is that an injury?
01:02:56
Speaker 3: Still from the front, I've don curls with girls and I blew a tricep.
01:03:03
Speaker 1: All right, muscles, we'll wrap it up. But guys, seriously, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat and the work that you guys are doing too. And Claude, you're you're just inspirations. Where we catch up at the end of the year function at Rainbow House, it just blows me away. And the respect that everyone shows you there is testament to what you've done. Thank you and what you're doing and.
01:03:24
Speaker 3: Totally deserve that nomination for Austrain of the Year.
01:03:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, well done. And and Vince, thanks for the thanks, Thanks for your your policing career. And I always enjoyed, enjoyed when our pasts crossed. But the work that you're doing now and I see you when you come up angry or come commenting on matters to do with crime, and I think you always give a good honest account and a good honest viewpoints.
01:03:52
Speaker 2: So keep up, keep up the good work, thank you, thanks pleasure okay jeers