WEBVTT
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Hi, welcome to our podcast, Huma
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Rights,Conversations Across
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Generations. I'm Meredith
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Lockwood, founder of Lockwood
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Creative, a purpose-driven
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creative agency. And I'm here
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with my dad.
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And I'm Professor Bert Lockwood,
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the director of the Urban Morgan
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Institute for Human Rights at
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the University of Cincinnati
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College of Law.
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Together, we are your
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father-daughter co-hosts.
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For over 50 years, I've had a
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front-row seat to the evolution
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of international human rights.
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And now, we're sharing that
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expertise with you by connecting
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to the powerful stories and
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insights of human rights voices
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from around the world.
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We bridge the past and the
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present, making complex human
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rights issues more approachable
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and understandable.
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So, pull up a chair and join our
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table as we speak with Nobel
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Peace Prize recipients,
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political leaders and the
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world's leading human rights
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scholars and activists.
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From Rising Seas, threatening
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entire island nations, to the
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extraordinary advances in
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technology reshaping our world,
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climate change is raising some
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of the most urgent questions of
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our time. And while the
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challenges are enormous, so is
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the work happening around the
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world to address them. Today, we
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welcome my friend, Aleš Mishko,
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to the show, who has dedicated
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her career to working on climate
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solutions.
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is a fellow and lecturer at the
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Abrams Environmental Law Clinic
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at the University of Chicago Law
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School. Previously, she served
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as a senior advisor to Secretary
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John Kerry in the Biden
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administration, helping
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negotiate international climate
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agreements and advance policies
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on climate resilience. A
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graduate of MIT and Yale Law
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School. Aleš has worked across
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engineering, environmental
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policy, international diplomacy,
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and human rights law.
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And we're delighted to have Alex
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joining us today.
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Alex, welcome to the show. My
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dad and I are so honored to have
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you here.
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Thank you. I'm honored to be
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here. Thanks for inviting me
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today.
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Alex, it's wonderful for you to
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join us and looking forward to
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seeing you in a couple weeks at
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our November Human Rights
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Conference in Cincinnati.
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Yeah, me as well. Meredith, I've
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met in person, but I'm excited
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to meet you in person, Bert.
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For our listeners,going to be,
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Alex, your first time in
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Cincinnati, Ohio, where my dad
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is teaching for any newcomers at
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the University of Cincinnati
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College of Law. Dad, along with
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his Urban Morgan Institute of
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Human Rights colleagues, are
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hosting an international
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conference dedicated to what's
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happening in human rights around
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the world in 2026 and looking
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ahead.And one of our dear
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shared family friends will be
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kicking off that conference.
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Alex, Professor Harold Coe,
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along with Paul Hoffman, wil be
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leading us. you'll get to see
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Harold in Cincinnati as well.
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Alex, I have my sweatshirt from
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our Chicago trip together at the
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Obama Presidential Center. And I
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think our message today for
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climate, we're going to really
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talk about climate from hope and
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optimism. There is a lot of doom
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scrolling these days. There's a
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lot of data dump. Sometimes
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things feel overly complicated
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for everyday persons trying to
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stay on top of migration,
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technology advances, water
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shortages, wildfires. But Alex
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and I got to prepare today's
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agenda and research points
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together, and I'm really excited
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on where we have decided to
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focus this discussion.But it's
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good to understand that we could
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have talked for hours about how
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expansive climate change is. So
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we're really going to dial in on
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certain key topics. Alex, you
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just got back from New York City.
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A my dad and I were curious, how
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did Climate Week go? What were
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some key takeaways?
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Yeah, super happy to start there.
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And thank you again for having
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me on today to have this
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discussion with you. Meredith,
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just to start, I think you hit
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the nail on the head already,
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which is that climate change is
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an issue that basically touches
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on everything in our lived
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society and everybody around the
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world. I think that
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expansiveness is reflected in
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convenings like New York Climate
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Week. You know, there are, quote,
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clim weeks all around the just
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came back from the one in New
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York that was at the end of
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September that also coincides
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with the UN General Assembly
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meeting. And so you can imagine
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there is a real influx of people
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into the city to have a lot of
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conversations on a lot of topics.
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It was my fourth consecutive
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climate week. I was tracking
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that. I was looking back on the
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last few years and kind of just
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thinking about what stood out to
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me this climate Like, I came
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back feeling very energized,
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which I will say from giant
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conferences, I know, even for
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myself is not always the case.
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And I think one of the reasons I
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felt really energized is that I
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felt that every conversation I
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was a part of, which, to be fair,
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was at most maybe like 10% of
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the actual happenings in New
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York You know, just to add a
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disclaimer, I'm sure many people
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had many other experiences
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during that week. But I felt
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like every conversation I was
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there was this focus on, okay,
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what are forward-looking
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solutions? We recognize there
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are a multitude of problems in
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front of us. And what are we
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tangibly doing about it? And
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kind of walking away with those,
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like, what are our actual next
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steps that we're going to take
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from this meeting? The other
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thing I felt, which maybe of
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coincides with that, though, is
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kind of a feeling like the
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tracks that I was on, right? And
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a lot of my conversations were
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focused on resilience or
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environmental advocacy or
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artificial intelligence. I felt
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like there were people who I
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know in the climate community
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who work on other topics who I
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didn't see during the entire
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week. so perhaps because there
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was so much happening, becau
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people were so of focused on
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particular solutions, there was
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less intersection of issues. But
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I was surprised by the people
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that I was thinking of, where I
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was like, wow, I wish I had seen
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this person or that person, or
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I'll need to reach out to have a
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follow-up conversation. And so
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those two of reflections were my
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main ones this time around.
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know, Alex, I've been to
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multiple climate weeks in New
06:24.024 --> 06:25.804
York as well and have had the
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honor of doing two trainings
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with Al Gore's organization, the
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Climate Reality Project. the
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last one I did was in 2024. it
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was really interesting because
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we didn't have the big
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discussions around advancing
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technology, artificial
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intelligence. It was actually
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really reactive to, the big
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federal elections. And I think
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that's also very important for
06:44.651 --> 06:44.711
me to go back to the
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presidential election we had
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with the presidency. I kind of
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felt like there were nerves in
06:49.105 --> 06:50.305
different panels and different
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discussions. I made it a point
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that I really wanted to hear
06:53.137 --> 06:55.894
from who were looking at wanting
06:55.894 --> 06:59.274
to be of service to protect our
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planet, running. Ancestral lands,
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discussed the water shortages,
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they were kind of curious where
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their education, getting to
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learn about sustainability,
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diffe science and engineering
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roles could take them. I'm so
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curious if I got to sit down
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with them two years how they
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would be doing. it was
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incredibly reflective for me to
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listen to your take on Climate
07:24.927 --> 07:27.107
Week and just realize, like, how
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much has changed in just two
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years?
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Yes. I think so much has changed
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in two years. here in the U. S.,
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also around the I think at the
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same time, you know, that are
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political or policy changes.
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There's also been lot of climate
07:44.236 --> 07:45.676
impacts that have been happening
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and that are a part of our
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day-to-day, maybe not news
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cycles, but, you know, I think
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people are experiencing climate
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change, perhaps, in ways that
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even a few years before wasn't
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as common. And so at least in my
07:58.424 --> 07:59.895
conversations, I felt there was
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this real sense of, okay, what
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are we doing about, like extreme
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heat in the Midwest? Or what are
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we doing about insurance and sea
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level rise? Or what are we doing
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about this problem that is
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surfacing and is now starting to
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become a part of people's lives?
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Alex. I'm how did you come to
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this field?
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confess, I tried to find my
08:22.191 --> 08:23.871
college application essay in
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advance of this podcast because
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I wrote about this in that. And
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you know what? For the best, I
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could not. I'm very happy I
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could not. I don't think I ever
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want to read that again. But, I
08:37.184 --> 08:39.607
was born and outside of Hanford,
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Washington, so in a town called
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the Tri-Cities,
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is the site of a Manhattan
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Project era plutonium production
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facility, And pretty much in the
08:51.670 --> 08:54.748
U. S., I understand, one of the
08:54.748 --> 08:56.968
most toxic radioactive places in
08:56.968 --> 08:59.369
this country because of the
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history know, various like
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nuclear fuels out there. And
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when I was in high school, I
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remember I started to just
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become aware of the area that I
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lived in. You know, like I
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always loved being outdoors and
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outside. And I started to just
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become aware of development and
09:18.656 --> 09:19.796
suburban sprawl that was
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happening in my community. I
09:22.007 --> 09:23.727
learning more about the history
09:23.727 --> 09:25.288
of, the place that I grew up in.
09:26.275 --> 09:29.208
I... Got really involved in kind
09:29.208 --> 09:31.148
of recycling and conservation,
09:31.148 --> 09:33.061
and that was first foray into
09:33.061 --> 09:34.361
this. And, you know, it's hard
09:34.361 --> 09:35.884
to describe, except have, I have
09:35.884 --> 09:38.925
these memories of being maybe 14,
09:38.925 --> 09:41.620
15, and realizing that, it was
09:41.620 --> 09:44.220
not common for many people in my
09:44.220 --> 09:45.760
hometown to recycle or to think
09:45.760 --> 09:47.340
about water conservation, even
09:47.340 --> 09:49.060
though we were in a semi-arid
09:49.060 --> 09:50.680
area. And I felt this, like,
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very deep-rooted sense of
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justice in a way that I feel
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like young people can only have
09:55.760 --> 09:57.280
sometimes of, like, oh,this is
09:57.280 --> 09:58.500
something that I must do
09:58.500 --> 10:00.140
something about, right? And so
10:00.140 --> 10:02.060
I'm sure I was quite an
10:02.060 --> 10:03.320
annoyance to my family, but I
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made us all get into recycling.
10:05.160 --> 10:06.560
And then I got involved in a
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local hospital where I helped
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volunteer to pick up recycling.
10:10.603 --> 10:12.183
Like, I would go on Saturdays
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and just gather recycling at a
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hospital myself and then, know,
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properly dispose of it. And it
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was, like, a program that I did
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for a while. And that kind of
10:21.456 --> 10:22.576
kicked off a passion that has
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never really left me. And so I
10:24.196 --> 10:26.127
feel like I learned about this
10:26.127 --> 10:27.727
whole field of environmentalism
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and advocacy and climate change.
10:29.747 --> 10:31.067
And the more I got into it, the
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more I knew that this is what I
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wanted to spend my, know, life's
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work, so to speak, around. I
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started on the engineering side.
10:38.406 --> 10:40.336
I went to MIT. And, I'm sure you
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can imagine that there, if
10:42.056 --> 10:43.336
you're interested in science and
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math, it's just like a world of
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possibilities that are open to
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you. And so I really dabbled in
10:48.229 --> 10:50.169
of clean energy engineering,
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seeing if there was a path there
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for me and I might be a climate
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scientist or something, you know,
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or work at a solar company,
10:57.113 --> 10:59.293
putting solar on roofs. And I
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found that I didn't really like
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practical, like, day-to-day side
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of working in a lab or, being an
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engineer, even though I loved
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studying it. And so then I got
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involved in of negotiations and
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business. And I had a mentor
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that was the first person to
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tell me that there is this whole
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world of, like, international
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work and UN-related work and,
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like, a whole community of
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practice around that. And he
11:22.827 --> 11:23.787
really inspired me to think
11:23.787 --> 11:25.807
about law school. And after
11:25.807 --> 11:27.327
working for a couple years doing
11:27.327 --> 11:28.947
kind of climate risk modeling, I
11:28.947 --> 11:30.797
ended up going to law school.
11:31.177 --> 11:32.604
And it was there that like, I
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found my niche. I was like, yes,
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this is the intersection in this
11:37.104 --> 11:38.624
broad world of climate change
11:38.624 --> 11:40.644
advocacy that I love. And, you
11:40.644 --> 11:41.924
know, whether it's been in and
11:41.924 --> 11:44.304
outside of government or
11:44.304 --> 11:46.264
institutions or from the more
11:46.264 --> 11:48.844
legal or policy lens, this world
11:48.844 --> 11:50.944
has been the one that I really,really
11:50.944 --> 11:52.204
find a lot of personal passion
11:52.204 --> 11:53.704
in and kind of thinking about
11:53.704 --> 11:54.644
solutions to this challenge.
11:54.999 --> 11:56.960
You mentioned there was a
11:56.960 --> 12:00.217
nuclear plant outside hometown.Can
12:00.217 --> 12:02.398
you educate me? sort of
12:02.398 --> 12:04.396
confused. I think read at
12:04.396 --> 12:07.094
different places that if you can
12:07.372 --> 12:11.219
control for not getting leakage
12:11.219 --> 12:14.579
and stuff from nuclear plants,
12:14.579 --> 12:15.859
that that would be the most
12:15.859 --> 12:18.698
efficient way of producing
12:18.698 --> 12:20.078
energy, that it would be the
12:20.078 --> 12:23.398
most climate friendly. Is that
12:23.398 --> 12:24.216
accurate not?
12:24.641 --> 12:26.861
I fear I am not an actual expert
12:26.861 --> 12:28.481
on nuclear energy. I did take
12:28.481 --> 12:30.561
one nuclear or I attempted to
12:30.561 --> 12:31.781
take one nuclear engineering
12:31.781 --> 12:33.201
class when I was in college. And
12:33.201 --> 12:34.881
then two weeks in, I was like,
12:34.881 --> 12:36.441
oh, definitely. I'm not smart
12:36.441 --> 12:36.971
enough for this.
12:37.350 --> 12:37.666
I would
12:38.819 --> 12:41.475
T did not stick. so the place
12:41.475 --> 12:42.855
that I grew up in is, I would
12:42.855 --> 12:44.315
say, a special case. It was a
12:44.315 --> 12:46.375
Superfund site. Right. Like, I
12:46.375 --> 12:47.895
think there is a long history
12:47.895 --> 12:49.416
there of of environmental
12:49.416 --> 12:49.426
cleanup.
12:49.931 --> 12:50.251
OK.
12:50.441 --> 12:52.124
don't know all the details why
12:52.124 --> 12:54.124
that is. But certainly, I don't
12:54.124 --> 12:56.624
think every nuclear site is that
12:56.624 --> 12:57.784
way. And I would also maybe
12:57.784 --> 12:58.734
distinguish between, like,
12:58.734 --> 13:01.272
nuclear power plants. And, the
13:01.272 --> 13:02.592
area that I grew up in, I
13:02.592 --> 13:03.572
believe there was, like,
13:03.572 --> 13:05.472
plutonium production that was
13:05.472 --> 13:06.941
part of, the Manhattan Project.
13:07.601 --> 13:08.411
And I think there were different
13:08.411 --> 13:10.235
things happening here. You know,
13:10.235 --> 13:12.075
in general, I would say nuclear
13:12.075 --> 13:14.206
energy, can be a complicated
13:14.206 --> 13:15.528
topic because a lot of people
13:15.528 --> 13:16.968
have different perspectives. And
13:16.968 --> 13:18.728
I think after Three Mile Island,
13:18.728 --> 13:20.948
there was a lot of concerns over,
13:20.867 --> 13:22.447
like, safety and, you know, what
13:22.447 --> 13:23.907
are, like, the risks of this
13:23.907 --> 13:26.284
energy? I tend to think about it
13:26.284 --> 13:28.751
always from a, which maybe isn't
13:28.751 --> 13:29.811
super optimistic of me, but,
13:29.811 --> 13:31.651
like, a risk-risk kind of
13:31.651 --> 13:32.891
analysis on every lens.
13:34.210 --> 13:35.990
certainly, there are risks with,
13:35.990 --> 13:37.770
that could come with nuclear
13:37.770 --> 13:39.130
energy. I also think there's a
13:39.130 --> 13:42.110
lot of risks of climate change
13:42.110 --> 13:44.010
and increased fossil fuel
13:44.010 --> 13:45.750
production. And so being able to
13:45.750 --> 13:46.870
think about, like, what is the
13:46.870 --> 13:49.030
energy mix of the future? I'm
13:49.030 --> 13:50.110
certainly not an expert on that,
13:50.110 --> 13:51.237
but I think, know, these are
13:51.727 --> 13:52.607
complicated questions that
13:52.607 --> 13:53.607
people are trying to figure out.
13:53.649 --> 13:55.601
Absolutely. that I'll just know,
13:55.601 --> 13:58.152
pinpoint that Erin Brockovich
13:58.152 --> 13:59.572
really brought a lot of these
13:59.572 --> 14:01.892
topics to mainstream.Hollywood
14:01.892 --> 14:03.788
helped with her film. she's been
14:03.788 --> 14:05.308
outspoken about nuclear
14:05.308 --> 14:07.628
facilities, rad concerns, but
14:07.628 --> 14:11.968
her famous case was against PG&E
14:11.968 --> 14:13.848
at the Hinkley groundwater
14:13.848 --> 14:14.975
contamination. but it's been
14:14.975 --> 14:17.175
interesting to see her now take
14:17.175 --> 14:19.795
up activism with her platform on
14:19.795 --> 14:21.517
AI. We data centers for electric
14:22.112 --> 14:24.212
grid water shortages, which we
14:24.212 --> 14:27.412
will get in later on that topic.
14:27.466 --> 14:28.646
Alex, I was curious. I was
14:28.646 --> 14:30.611
looking on the 'cause we, you
14:30.611 --> 14:32.234
grew up in Washington. I'm
14:32.234 --> 14:34.331
currently based in Oregon. so it
14:34.331 --> 14:35.296
looks like you were about hour
14:35.296 --> 14:37.016
and a half to two hours away
14:37.016 --> 14:40.556
from the Yacama Reservation. Did
14:40.851 --> 14:42.731
in your studies or growing up in
14:42.731 --> 14:43.891
that region, get to learn how
14:43.891 --> 14:43.971
that's going to be able to be?
14:44.041 --> 14:45.951
learn about those tribal lands
14:45.951 --> 14:47.497
and the different cultures?
14:47.598 --> 14:49.571
Yeah, it's a great question. I'm
14:49.571 --> 14:51.371
trying to think back to what we
14:51.371 --> 14:53.568
were taught. you know, I have a
14:53.568 --> 14:55.368
memory of being in middle school
14:55.368 --> 14:57.253
and Washington state history
14:57.243 --> 14:58.963
being a part of the mandated
14:58.973 --> 15:00.503
curriculum, wh, of course,
15:00.503 --> 15:02.432
included, you know, past history.
15:02.900 --> 15:05.434
history of the relationship
15:05.434 --> 15:07.374
between all the various
15:07.374 --> 15:10.324
indigenous in the area as well
15:10.324 --> 15:13.939
as like settlers moving in from
15:13.939 --> 15:15.999
the eastern united states in the
15:15.999 --> 15:19.589
past actually is an area that it
15:19.589 --> 15:21.509
was later in my life like maybe
15:21.509 --> 15:23.399
after as i started to delve more
15:23.399 --> 15:25.689
into this field and this work as
15:25.689 --> 15:27.549
an adult as in my various
15:27.549 --> 15:29.469
educational processes that i
15:29.469 --> 15:30.829
almost remember being called
15:30.829 --> 15:32.709
back to learn more about my
15:32.709 --> 15:34.709
hometown after i had left it
15:34.709 --> 15:35.829
which is really interesting
15:35.829 --> 15:37.821
right think of i gained a
15:37.821 --> 15:39.251
fascination i'd say when i was
15:39.251 --> 15:41.681
around grad school of kind of
15:41.681 --> 15:42.541
understanding the place that i
15:42.541 --> 15:44.401
had come from the history there
15:44.472 --> 15:46.252
my family's history there all of
15:46.252 --> 15:47.412
that and so i actually think it
15:47.412 --> 15:48.592
was more later in life that i
15:48.592 --> 15:50.072
started to think about those
15:50.072 --> 15:52.272
intersections than necessarily a
15:52.272 --> 15:54.152
memory that strikes up from my
15:54.152 --> 15:54.922
education and my youth
15:55.630 --> 15:58.306
that makes alex to date you've
15:58.306 --> 15:59.866
worked across engineering
16:00.202 --> 16:02.951
business law public service i'd
16:02.951 --> 16:05.271
love to hear about your time at
16:05.271 --> 16:07.351
the state department you were a
16:07.351 --> 16:08.221
senior advisor to former
16:08.921 --> 16:10.918
secretary John Kerrey office of
16:10.918 --> 16:12.658
the special presidential envoy
16:12.658 --> 16:14.333
for climate under the biden
16:14.333 --> 16:16.461
harris administration could you
16:16.461 --> 16:17.620
share a little bit about what
16:17.670 --> 16:19.070
that experience was
16:19.287 --> 16:22.783
yeah Uh, so, Secretary Kerry
16:22.783 --> 16:24.303
came in as the Special
16:24.303 --> 16:26.103
Presidential Envoy for Climate
16:26.103 --> 16:27.823
right at the start of the Biden
16:27.823 --> 16:28.823
administration, and there was
16:28.823 --> 16:32.493
kind of a team that... supported
16:32.493 --> 16:35.763
him worked on a variety of
16:35.763 --> 16:38.923
topics um and my role when i
16:38.923 --> 16:41.203
joined the team was to focus on
16:41.203 --> 16:43.046
a few different things i did a
16:43.046 --> 16:45.882
lot of work on Things that cross
16:45.882 --> 16:47.702
the climate resilience
16:47.702 --> 16:49.588
intersection. So think the way I
16:49.588 --> 16:51.128
would describe that is climate
16:51.128 --> 16:52.658
and health, thinking about the
16:52.658 --> 16:54.508
implications of climate change
16:54.508 --> 16:56.168
on people's health, but also
16:56.168 --> 16:57.408
thinking about like the
16:57.408 --> 16:58.788
decarbonization of health
16:58.788 --> 17:01.918
systems, um climate and ocean at
17:01.918 --> 17:03.258
certain points in time, climate
17:03.258 --> 17:04.388
sea level rise, climate
17:05.636 --> 17:08.108
migration, all these kinds of
17:08.108 --> 17:09.828
intersections where climate
17:09.828 --> 17:10.898
change is also impacting other
17:11.298 --> 17:14.794
areas of work or the economy and
17:14.794 --> 17:16.074
thinking about the complex kind
17:16.074 --> 17:17.474
of ecosystems around those
17:18.224 --> 17:19.174
intersections and how we
17:19.174 --> 17:20.884
actually move forward solutions.
17:21.144 --> 17:22.622
Some of the work was, know,
17:22.632 --> 17:24.602
within negotiation processes. So
17:24.612 --> 17:26.066
sometimes I negotiated, under
17:26.076 --> 17:28.439
the Paris Agreement or, the UN
17:28.439 --> 17:29.539
General Assembly or these
17:29.539 --> 17:31.539
multilateral institutions. Other
17:31.539 --> 17:33.162
time it was coordination, know,
17:33.162 --> 17:34.362
across the federal government
17:34.362 --> 17:35.977
thinking about, what's the
17:35.977 --> 17:37.612
priority, what's the opportunity
17:37.612 --> 17:38.902
here to move forward new ideas
17:39.062 --> 17:41.099
and solutions. Um, I will say
17:41.099 --> 17:42.859
like, I look back on that time
17:42.859 --> 17:44.243
as working with one of the most
17:44.553 --> 17:46.133
amazing teams I've ever worked
17:46.133 --> 17:47.833
with who were all like so
17:47.833 --> 17:49.173
dedicated towards thinking about
17:49.683 --> 17:51.693
what can we do right now in this
17:51.693 --> 17:53.173
moment. and they're really
17:53.173 --> 17:54.273
complicated problems and nothing
17:54.273 --> 17:56.263
ever happens as quickly as we
17:56.263 --> 17:58.373
would like it to, but I feel
17:58.373 --> 18:00.156
really both like grateful and
18:00.156 --> 18:01.496
lucky to have had such an
18:01.496 --> 18:02.876
amazing opportunity, especially
18:02.876 --> 18:04.509
for me earlier on in my career.
18:04.865 --> 18:07.377
i'm what countries would you um
18:07.890 --> 18:10.700
identify as sort of being the
18:10.700 --> 18:12.460
progressive leaders on this
18:12.460 --> 18:14.841
issue now i'm assuming the
18:14.841 --> 18:17.600
united states is not what what
18:17.600 --> 18:19.783
countries have active in this
18:19.783 --> 18:20.093
area
18:20.846 --> 18:22.068
yeah it's a great question um
18:22.953 --> 18:24.379
one thing that, has struck me
18:24.379 --> 18:25.639
over the last year is just kind
18:25.639 --> 18:27.499
of looking at the international
18:27.499 --> 18:30.385
ecosystem of actors is that it
18:30.385 --> 18:33.475
really feels like everywhere
18:33.475 --> 18:35.575
else in the world, people are
18:35.575 --> 18:37.431
still very much know, aware of
18:37.431 --> 18:39.751
the challenge, looking at like
18:39.751 --> 18:41.071
the climate impacts that people
18:41.071 --> 18:43.371
are facing and trying to move
18:43.371 --> 18:45.683
forward ideas and solutions. And,
18:45.683 --> 18:47.783
you know, I think the long, time
18:47.783 --> 18:49.972
advocates that I, can point to
18:49.972 --> 18:51.452
on particular issues, I think
18:51.452 --> 18:53.752
are still driving those forward
18:53.752 --> 18:55.371
in the best way, right? So, an
18:55.371 --> 18:57.479
example that comes to mind, um,
18:57.425 --> 18:59.755
is, island nations, low-lying
18:59.755 --> 19:01.455
coastal areas have for a long
19:01.455 --> 19:03.703
time been advocating for of
19:03.703 --> 19:05.883
adaptation, resili, support. And
19:05.883 --> 19:07.683
I think I've seen, you know,
19:07.683 --> 19:09.455
movement and changes not only in
19:09.455 --> 19:10.935
the last few years, but even in
19:10.935 --> 19:13.135
the last year on thinking about,
19:12.831 --> 19:14.934
know, protection of persons in
19:14.934 --> 19:16.834
the face of sea level rise, or
19:16.834 --> 19:19.214
kind of continuing to be that
19:19.214 --> 19:20.674
voice on a global stage saying
19:20.674 --> 19:22.374
like, here's what's happening to
19:22.374 --> 19:24.683
us on the front lines. my
19:24.673 --> 19:25.743
perception has been that the
19:25.743 --> 19:27.782
global community is still of
19:27.782 --> 19:29.332
driving things forward. And I
19:29.342 --> 19:30.652
feel like we see that, you know,
19:30.652 --> 19:33.052
in news alerts that come around
19:33.062 --> 19:34.842
about, what did people discuss
19:34.842 --> 19:36.222
at, you know, this big convening
19:36.212 --> 19:38.022
that happened just, I think,
19:38.012 --> 19:39.142
last week, or might be happening
19:39.142 --> 19:41.618
right now, in Fiji in advance of
19:41.628 --> 19:44.432
COP 31, which is in, just a
19:44.432 --> 19:46.146
month away. And so those, those
19:46.146 --> 19:47.566
convenings are still happening.
19:47.576 --> 19:49.208
Those countries are thinking of
19:49.208 --> 19:50.208
solutions, pushing things
19:50.208 --> 19:50.478
forward.
19:51.225 --> 19:52.826
the State Department sent me thi
19:52.836 --> 19:54.655
is a number of years ago to the
19:54.645 --> 19:57.395
Maldives. And I remember when I
19:57.385 --> 20:00.522
was preparing for my trip one of
20:01.252 --> 20:05.112
dramatic examples that they did
20:05.112 --> 20:07.269
to, capture attention to this
20:07.269 --> 20:09.942
issue was that held a session of
20:09.942 --> 20:11.782
their parliament underwater.
20:12.045 --> 20:12.826
oh, wow.
20:12.884 --> 20:13.104
Yeah.
20:12.931 --> 20:14.924
How cool is that? That's
20:14.924 --> 20:16.072
definitely, one of his
20:16.072 --> 20:17.492
international trips that I would
20:17.492 --> 20:19.012
have to go on.
20:19.071 --> 20:19.821
sacrifice. Me too.
20:20.105 --> 20:22.903
it was a That I, had to make,
20:23.190 --> 20:24.450
you have to do these things in
20:24.450 --> 20:26.783
the human rights field. it was
20:26.783 --> 20:27.315
very beautiful.
20:27.994 --> 20:29.954
Alex, that's a perfect segue, to
20:29.954 --> 20:31.314
talk about the Maldives, but
20:31.314 --> 20:33.384
also to spotlight Fiji,
20:33.596 --> 20:36.174
Bangladesh, Peru. you shared
20:36.174 --> 20:39.154
with from the organization, we
20:39.154 --> 20:41.477
adapt, which is maintained by
20:41.477 --> 20:42.787
Stockholm environment Institute.
20:43.507 --> 20:45.157
It's an independent nonprofit
20:45.157 --> 20:46.657
research and policy organization
20:46.657 --> 20:49.776
that was established in 2007. It
20:49.776 --> 20:51.256
connects researchers,
20:51.256 --> 20:53.336
policymakers, practitioners to
20:53.336 --> 20:55.076
share research, case studies,
20:55.675 --> 20:58.017
like truly guidance on climate
20:58.017 --> 21:00.216
adaptation. and if I may just
21:00.216 --> 21:01.916
share some key statistics from
21:01.916 --> 21:05.439
that report that in Fiji in 2017,
21:05.439 --> 21:08.499
their government identified 830
21:08.499 --> 21:10.959
communities requiring relocation
21:10.959 --> 21:12.409
because of climate-related risks.
21:12.989 --> 21:14.619
48 of them were classified as
21:14.619 --> 21:17.639
urgent. also between 2006 and
21:17.639 --> 21:21.359
2014, 153 residents in Fiji were
21:21.359 --> 21:23.139
relocated inland because of
21:23.139 --> 21:25.939
tidal flooding, coastal erosion,
21:25.939 --> 21:28.439
and saltwater intrusion. So I
21:28.439 --> 21:29.899
think this is a really important
21:29.899 --> 21:32.307
subject to talk communities that
21:32.307 --> 21:34.407
are islanders, that are affected
21:34.407 --> 21:36.607
by low-lying island nations,
21:36.607 --> 21:39.298
rising sea levels. but also
21:39.298 --> 21:41.679
about, these vulnerable
21:41.679 --> 21:43.047
communities who haven't haven't
21:43.047 --> 21:44.747
really had a big carbon
21:44.747 --> 21:46.507
footprint. They haven't,
21:46.873 --> 21:49.673
impacted the climate crisis, but
21:49.673 --> 21:51.773
yet they're some of the first on
21:51.773 --> 21:53.693
the front lines that are being
21:53.693 --> 21:55.467
affected. going to pass that off
21:55.467 --> 21:57.814
to you, Alex, and let of walk us
21:57.814 --> 21:59.404
through this subject now.
21:59.866 --> 22:02.140
Yes, Uh, well, so, Bert, when
22:02.140 --> 22:03.449
you, you mentioned that you saw
22:03.449 --> 22:05.009
a meeting that was held
22:05.009 --> 22:06.509
underwater, the first thing that
22:06.509 --> 22:08.826
came to mind was actually, I
22:08.826 --> 22:09.926
remember watching, I think it
22:09.926 --> 22:12.966
was in advance of COP26. And so,
22:12.966 --> 22:14.466
COP is, you know, the big
22:14.466 --> 22:15.726
conference of parties that
22:15.726 --> 22:17.886
happen the Paris Agreement and
22:17.886 --> 22:19.406
the UN Framework Convention on
22:19.406 --> 22:21.466
Climate Change, which is the
22:21.466 --> 22:23.916
1992 agreement related to, um,
22:23.916 --> 22:24.916
climate change that kind of
22:24.916 --> 22:26.216
launched. This whole
22:26.216 --> 22:27.828
international process. I
22:27.828 --> 22:29.288
remember, I think the foreign
22:29.288 --> 22:32.225
minister of Tuvalu had, was
22:32.225 --> 22:34.345
standing knee-deep in water,
22:34.345 --> 22:35.925
giving an address know, to
22:36.210 --> 22:38.590
global community saying, this is
22:38.590 --> 22:39.970
already affecting us now. Like,
22:39.970 --> 22:41.630
wha are we going to do about it,
22:41.630 --> 22:44.070
right? And so, maybe just to
22:44.070 --> 22:46.537
take a step you know, I've
22:46.537 --> 22:47.657
mentioned a couple times already
22:47.670 --> 22:48.961
that I, find a lot of personal
22:48.961 --> 22:50.631
passion working on thinking
22:50.631 --> 22:53.771
about how we adapt to climate
22:53.771 --> 22:55.471
impacts. And climate impacts is
22:55.471 --> 22:57.011
an extremely broad term, right?
22:57.011 --> 22:58.631
Uh, it can mean a lot of
22:58.631 --> 23:01.047
different Uh, I tend to think of
23:01.047 --> 23:03.436
things in terms what I'll call,
23:03.436 --> 23:05.136
like, extreme events. And so,
23:05.136 --> 23:07.224
like, a hurricane or, like,
23:07.224 --> 23:08.924
major flooding that has an, all
23:08.924 --> 23:11.241
of a sudden, pretty severe
23:11.241 --> 23:14.081
impact on a community, an area.
23:14.081 --> 23:16.041
There's often, like, really,
23:15.734 --> 23:17.664
complicated reconstruction and
23:17.664 --> 23:19.284
recovery efforts that have to
23:19.284 --> 23:20.544
occur in the wake of something
23:20.544 --> 23:22.504
like that. And then I also think
23:22.504 --> 23:23.584
about what I'll maybe call slow
23:23.894 --> 23:25.979
onset events, which are, this
23:25.979 --> 23:27.479
isn't a perfect distinction by
23:27.479 --> 23:29.659
any means, but maybe we at least
23:29.659 --> 23:31.499
tend to think of them as things
23:31.499 --> 23:32.899
that are happening over a longer
23:32.899 --> 23:35.199
period of time, right? And so,
23:35.249 --> 23:37.049
sea level rise is one of those
23:37.049 --> 23:38.189
things that I think people have
23:38.189 --> 23:40.089
long called a slow onset event.
23:40.089 --> 23:42.679
I think that name can maybe mask
23:42.679 --> 23:44.499
that there many places in the
23:44.499 --> 23:46.719
world that are already acutely
23:46.719 --> 23:48.279
experiencing sea level rise in a
23:48.279 --> 23:49.919
way that is, like, actively
23:49.919 --> 23:51.619
affecting their day-to-day lives,
23:51.619 --> 23:53.911
right? and so, the nations and
23:53.911 --> 23:55.671
communities that you referenced,
23:55.671 --> 23:56.732
Meredith, are, that have really
23:56.732 --> 23:58.832
been the long-time advocates on
23:58.832 --> 24:00.352
this topic and really deserve
24:00.352 --> 24:02.632
the credit for continuously,
24:02.457 --> 24:04.397
like, raising awareness while
24:04.397 --> 24:06.077
they're on the front lines of
24:06.077 --> 24:08.657
the climate impact and coming up
24:08.657 --> 24:10.597
with really creative solutions
24:10.597 --> 24:11.977
and really,I would say, like,
24:11.977 --> 24:13.677
leading international efforts on
24:13.677 --> 24:15.927
this, right? U, and so, you can
24:15.927 --> 24:18.378
imagine that, nations that have
24:18.378 --> 24:20.158
a lot of low-lying coastal areas,
24:20.158 --> 24:21.638
whether it's island nations in
24:21.638 --> 24:23.858
the Pacific or other areas that
24:23.858 --> 24:25.738
have coastal land that is quite,
24:25.738 --> 24:27.978
like, acutely vulnerable to sea
24:27.978 --> 24:30.258
level rise, are kind of looking
24:30.258 --> 24:31.438
at the way that climate change
24:31.438 --> 24:32.998
is impacting them. And there is
24:32.998 --> 24:34.778
this question of, are these
24:34.778 --> 24:36.858
areas going to be inhabitable?
24:36.671 --> 24:38.331
And especially when you are an
24:38.331 --> 24:40.491
island that doesn't have tons of
24:40.491 --> 24:41.401
land and a lot of land and a lot
24:41.401 --> 24:42.591
of land that is at risk from sea
24:42.591 --> 24:44.731
level rise, then that leads to
24:44.731 --> 24:46.191
the question of, is the whole
24:46.191 --> 24:47.091
country going to be
24:47.091 --> 24:49.351
uninhabitable one day, right?
24:49.141 --> 24:50.881
day, when I say that, I kind of
24:50.881 --> 24:52.841
think on the scale of the next
24:52.841 --> 24:55.217
25 years, which isn't that far
24:55.217 --> 24:59.037
away. that's a very tough And
24:59.037 --> 25:01.717
I've seen solutions that are
25:01.717 --> 25:04.077
extremely creative and also
25:04.077 --> 25:06.057
reflective of just, like, how
25:06.057 --> 25:08.252
big of challenge we are facing
25:08.252 --> 25:09.952
as a community and managing all
25:09.952 --> 25:11.954
of these impacts. Um, I think it
25:11.954 --> 25:13.654
was also Tuvalu that said that
25:13.654 --> 25:15.054
they were going to start
25:15.054 --> 25:16.394
preserving their land and
25:16.394 --> 25:18.114
culture and history through kind
25:18.114 --> 25:20.327
of digital means. I think the
25:20.327 --> 25:21.727
phrase was like first digital
25:21.727 --> 25:23.829
nation almost. Right. there's
25:23.829 --> 25:25.029
obviously a lot of coastal
25:25.029 --> 25:26.509
adaptation work that happens and
25:26.509 --> 25:28.049
you see international funding
25:28.049 --> 25:30.366
for those projects. there's
25:30.366 --> 25:31.806
planned relocation, which is, I
25:31.806 --> 25:33.166
think what you were getting at
25:33.166 --> 25:34.906
Meredith as well, which is what
25:34.906 --> 25:36.686
if you have to physically move a
25:36.686 --> 25:38.026
whole community? And that might
25:38.026 --> 25:40.426
be because literally the lands
25:40.426 --> 25:42.426
that you are living on will be
25:42.426 --> 25:43.686
underwater one day. It could
25:43.686 --> 25:45.696
also be because, you know,
25:45.696 --> 25:47.514
you're coastal community that
25:47.514 --> 25:49.314
relies on fishing, for example,
25:49.314 --> 25:51.354
for your economic means. And
25:51.354 --> 25:53.054
because of climate change, the
25:53.054 --> 25:54.674
fish are dying or because of
25:54.674 --> 25:56.374
overfishing and climate change,
25:56.374 --> 25:57.194
right? Like there is a
25:57.194 --> 25:58.974
confluence of factors that
25:58.974 --> 26:00.254
affect your ability to live
26:00.254 --> 26:02.034
somewhere. And so countries are
26:02.034 --> 26:03.054
kind of grappling with the
26:03.054 --> 26:04.774
question of, can you move an
26:04.774 --> 26:06.394
entire community? What are the
26:06.394 --> 26:07.334
cultural ramifications? What are
26:07.334 --> 26:07.754
the cultural ramifications of
26:07.754 --> 26:10.034
that? How do you do it
26:10.034 --> 26:11.314
financially? What is the support
26:11.314 --> 26:14.325
that you need? And, that planned
26:14.325 --> 26:15.605
relocation question, I'll just
26:15.605 --> 26:17.605
note, isn't something that is,
26:17.676 --> 26:18.856
just for those of us that are
26:18.856 --> 26:20.036
listening from the U. S., like,
26:20.036 --> 26:21.336
in a faraway place, right? Like,
26:21.336 --> 26:22.696
there are places here that are
26:22.696 --> 26:24.596
grappling with those same
26:24.596 --> 26:25.436
questions, right? Like, there
26:25.436 --> 26:28.074
are, are places in Louisiana or,
26:27.970 --> 26:29.270
I think of Alaska where
26:29.270 --> 26:31.110
permafrost may be melting and
26:31.110 --> 26:32.390
impacting the literal, like,
26:32.390 --> 26:33.590
ground that communities are
26:33.590 --> 26:34.690
built on that have to think
26:34.690 --> 26:36.670
about these questions of what
26:36.670 --> 26:38.538
does our long-term, like,
26:38.538 --> 26:39.898
ability to live in this
26:39.898 --> 26:40.808
particular place mean?
26:42.039 --> 26:44.039
I was just thinking as you were
26:44.039 --> 26:46.669
speaking one of the examples in
26:46.669 --> 26:49.254
international law traditionally
26:49.254 --> 26:52.114
is cited as being successful,
26:52.237 --> 26:54.037
was the Law of the Sea
26:54.037 --> 26:54.337
Convention.
26:54.609 --> 26:54.869
Mm.
26:54.743 --> 26:57.333
But the country that led that
26:57.333 --> 27:00.790
effort was Malta, one of the
27:00.790 --> 27:03.117
reasons, they cite that it was
27:03.117 --> 27:06.441
successful was at the time,
27:07.008 --> 27:09.208
technology had not advanced to
27:09.218 --> 27:12.372
the point where, countries would
27:12.372 --> 27:15.432
be able to mind beyond the
27:15.432 --> 27:16.292
continental shelf, um, be on the
27:16.292 --> 27:18.130
continental now we're at a point
27:18.130 --> 27:20.348
where they can, and, and so,
27:20.404 --> 27:22.384
there's some analogy that
27:22.384 --> 27:25.519
they've drawn the current
27:25.519 --> 27:27.359
efforts to try to get regulation
27:27.359 --> 27:30.361
of outer space. again, we're
27:30.681 --> 27:33.120
running up uh, a ticking clock
27:33.120 --> 27:36.625
because some countries are even
27:36.625 --> 27:38.752
private companies. Elon Musk.
27:39.506 --> 27:42.320
they now are. there's, t risk
27:42.320 --> 27:43.840
now because they're sort of at a
27:43.840 --> 27:46.507
point where they can, start
27:46.883 --> 27:48.983
activities, mining the moon. And,
27:48.983 --> 27:51.793
you know, they're talking about,
27:53.388 --> 27:54.942
facilities on the moon will
27:54.942 --> 27:58.051
allow them um, take minerals and
27:58.051 --> 28:01.850
things But also use it as a base
28:01.850 --> 28:03.898
for, beginning exploration
28:03.898 --> 28:05.646
toward other, uh, planets. So,
28:05.753 --> 28:06.893
you know, dad, you just reminded
28:06.893 --> 28:09.866
me of report I just watched by
28:09.866 --> 28:11.626
the media nonprofit, More
28:11.626 --> 28:13.244
Perfect Union. Alex, I'll send
28:13.244 --> 28:14.324
it to you. And I'll also, for
28:14.324 --> 28:15.344
our listeners, put it in our
28:15.344 --> 28:18.667
show notes. They go to the town
28:18.667 --> 28:21.407
in Texas where Musk has his
28:21.407 --> 28:24.127
launch pad for his rockets and
28:24.127 --> 28:27.447
interviews homeowners, renters
28:27.447 --> 28:30.487
there. And I had no idea the
28:30.487 --> 28:33.367
implications on people's homes
28:33.367 --> 28:35.327
that the rocket blasts are
28:35.327 --> 28:37.187
creating earthquakes. And their
28:37.187 --> 28:38.407
houses are starting to have
28:38.407 --> 28:39.667
cracks in the ceiling, cracks in
28:39.667 --> 28:42.467
the walls. You can literally see
28:42.467 --> 28:45.067
homes and windows just shaking
28:45.067 --> 28:46.197
when these blasts are going off.
28:46.577 --> 28:48.167
And then they also interviewed
28:48.167 --> 28:49.587
scientists and conservationists
28:49.587 --> 28:52.387
of the implications these rocket
28:52.387 --> 28:53.387
parts that are just falling to
28:53.387 --> 28:55.807
the ground are having on, you
28:55.807 --> 28:57.307
know, the sand, the erosion.
28:57.907 --> 28:59.817
What's also happening with
28:59.817 --> 29:01.877
native species. There's turtles
29:01.877 --> 29:03.677
down there that are already high
29:03.677 --> 29:06.037
risk and endangered. It was
29:06.037 --> 29:06.966
fascinating. this And to tell
29:06.966 --> 29:08.106
you the truth, I didn't know a
29:08.106 --> 29:09.566
lot about it from the people
29:09.566 --> 29:11.266
that live there and are
29:11.266 --> 29:13.286
experiencing this because Musk
29:13.286 --> 29:15.266
put out a statement that this is
29:15.266 --> 29:17.266
like no man's land. Nobody lives
29:17.266 --> 29:18.686
there. And then these people
29:18.686 --> 29:21.505
were like, we live here. We are
29:21.505 --> 29:23.865
a complete community down here
29:23.865 --> 29:25.645
that are being implicated not
29:25.645 --> 29:28.585
just as humans, but also as
29:28.585 --> 29:31.045
animals, sea life, plants, etc.
29:31.548 --> 29:34.228
Yes, absolutely. would love to
29:34.384 --> 29:35.669
watch, read all about that.
29:35.798 --> 29:37.138
if I may, just really quick,
29:37.138 --> 29:38.878
because Alex, you brought up the
29:38.878 --> 29:41.238
island Tuvalu, I don't always
29:41.238 --> 29:42.698
think they get the limelight
29:42.698 --> 29:45.487
that they a video I shared with
29:45.487 --> 29:48.124
you, and Dad as well, by Al
29:48.124 --> 29:49.944
Jazeer. And it featured a
29:49.944 --> 29:52.004
13-year-old who was speaking to
29:52.004 --> 29:54.344
world leaders ahead of the COP
29:54.344 --> 29:56.421
31. I just want to quote her
29:56.421 --> 29:58.661
because she was happy. Making
29:58.661 --> 30:00.681
her voice heard and representing
30:00.681 --> 30:03.156
her entire community. she said,
30:03.156 --> 30:05.196
quote, We are not asking for
30:05.196 --> 30:07.396
pity. We are asking for help in
30:07.396 --> 30:09.446
partnership she is pleading with
30:09.446 --> 30:11.846
global leaders to take action to
30:11.846 --> 30:13.746
protect her country's future
30:13.746 --> 30:16.066
because they may very well have
30:16.066 --> 30:17.436
to look ahead at planned
30:17.716 --> 30:19.466
relocation. But just like you
30:19.466 --> 30:21.606
said, Alex, what does that mean
30:21.606 --> 30:24.236
for culture? it's not just about
30:24.236 --> 30:27.396
land. It's also their heritage,
30:28.236 --> 30:30.196
their traditions, and also where
30:30.196 --> 30:30.956
do they go?
30:31.550 --> 30:34.050
Me, I also wanted to mention,
30:34.151 --> 30:36.452
that came to mind with your,
30:36.623 --> 30:39.309
last comment that, there's now,
30:39.212 --> 30:41.592
a new effort, a recent effort,
30:41.622 --> 30:44.639
that I read that is attempting
30:44.639 --> 30:49.389
to get animals some kind of
30:49.399 --> 30:52.619
status. mean, similar to humans
30:52.619 --> 30:54.702
and human rights, that where
30:54.702 --> 30:57.062
like you can sue on behalf of
30:57.062 --> 31:01.077
animals for, co or governments
31:01.077 --> 31:03.417
that are taking actions that are
31:03.417 --> 31:05.297
detrimental to their,
31:05.431 --> 31:09.609
livelihoods. and this is
31:09.609 --> 31:11.089
connected with indigenous
31:11.089 --> 31:12.697
peoples and of their
31:12.697 --> 31:15.174
relationships the animals,uh ,
31:15.174 --> 31:16.444
the part you're talking about,
31:16.444 --> 31:18.477
cultu and the like. it's going
31:18.477 --> 31:20.784
to be interesting to see how if
31:20.784 --> 31:23.588
it takes but how that, u,develops
31:23.671 --> 31:26.121
, with respect to status, uh, as
31:26.131 --> 31:27.571
far as international law is
31:27.941 --> 31:28.171
concerned.
31:28.524 --> 31:30.474
Maybe just a couple reactions,
31:30.946 --> 31:32.466
to your first point, Meredith.
31:32.666 --> 31:35.221
mean, absolutely. Right. is, it
31:35.221 --> 31:37.221
is difficult to even
31:37.221 --> 31:39.401
conceptually fathom the idea of
31:39.401 --> 31:41.361
moving an entire community of
31:41.361 --> 31:43.660
people that has lived in an area
31:44.041 --> 31:46.351
however long years, decades,
31:46.351 --> 31:47.905
hundreds of years. Right. there
31:47.905 --> 31:51.377
is so much culture, heritage, I
31:51.377 --> 31:53.317
would call it non-economic loss
31:53.317 --> 31:54.357
necessarily, things that you
31:54.357 --> 31:56.517
can't put a, like a dollar price
31:56.517 --> 31:57.993
on, but are clearly like
31:57.993 --> 31:59.673
immeasurably valuable to people
31:59.673 --> 32:01.673
in communities. The, you know,
32:01.673 --> 32:03.013
mental health implications of
32:03.013 --> 32:04.570
that, all of, all of that, I
32:04.570 --> 32:06.690
think are deeply important
32:06.690 --> 32:08.189
considerations. I would also
32:08.189 --> 32:09.589
maybe point to, I think it was
32:09.589 --> 32:12.594
in March of this year, there the
32:12.594 --> 32:15.714
launch of regional guidance by
32:15.714 --> 32:17.874
Pacific governments on planned
32:17.874 --> 32:19.984
relocation. And in that, you
32:19.984 --> 32:21.134
know, I think the language that
32:21.134 --> 32:23.364
was used was, this should be
32:23.364 --> 32:25.424
grounded in self-determination
32:25.424 --> 32:27.324
of communities, right? Like it
32:27.440 --> 32:28.960
is critically important that it
32:28.960 --> 32:31.640
is the communities that are
32:31.640 --> 32:33.400
deciding that only have a voice,
32:33.400 --> 32:35.480
but have like the ability to
32:35.480 --> 32:38.060
make decisions and to lead
32:38.060 --> 32:39.640
themselves into whatever comes
32:39.640 --> 32:41.387
next. Right. And those
32:41.387 --> 32:42.833
guidelines also noted, right.
32:42.643 --> 32:44.558
That, something like planned
32:44.558 --> 32:48.118
relocation really occurs after
32:48.118 --> 32:50.738
the adaptation strategies that
32:50.738 --> 32:53.078
are locally preferred by that
32:53.078 --> 32:55.178
community have been explored and
32:55.178 --> 32:56.738
exhausted, right? Like, this is
32:56.738 --> 32:59.263
a, I hesitate to use the phrase,
32:59.263 --> 33:01.257
like, intervention of last
33:01.257 --> 33:02.247
resort, but it's like, it's not
33:02.237 --> 33:03.287
the first thing you reach for
33:03.547 --> 33:04.897
because of the implications that
33:04.897 --> 33:06.307
I think we can all think through
33:06.297 --> 33:08.140
that, that it has. and so just
33:08.130 --> 33:10.250
to say, this is an area that
33:10.260 --> 33:11.980
people are actively dealing with.
33:12.010 --> 33:13.720
It's not some like far off in
33:13.720 --> 33:15.050
the future thing where it's like,
33:15.050 --> 33:16.130
oh, well, in 20 years, we're
33:16.220 --> 33:17.560
going to have to start grappling
33:17.550 --> 33:18.920
with this issue. So we don't
33:18.910 --> 33:20.800
have to think about it now. This
33:20.800 --> 33:22.826
is very a, like, no, people on
33:22.826 --> 33:23.936
the front lines are actively
33:23.926 --> 33:25.476
thinking about it, pulling
33:25.476 --> 33:27.516
together guidelines, already
33:27.516 --> 33:29.656
relocating individuals and
33:29.656 --> 33:30.700
communities, right?Like this
33:30.710 --> 33:32.450
isn't like a, a thing of the
33:32.440 --> 33:33.630
future that is being dealt with,
33:33.630 --> 33:36.300
but rather a real challenge. And,
33:36.352 --> 33:38.182
the ability of the international
33:38.182 --> 33:39.802
community to provide funding and
33:39.812 --> 33:42.032
other help and partnership is, I
33:42.022 --> 33:44.112
think, essential to being able
33:44.102 --> 33:44.982
to ensure that those communities
33:45.262 --> 33:46.382
have the autonomy and
33:46.392 --> 33:48.022
self-determination that they
33:48.022 --> 33:50.413
deserve. and then Bert to your
33:50.413 --> 33:52.268
point, uh, this is an area, this,
33:52.268 --> 33:53.428
this kind of separate legal
33:53.428 --> 33:55.331
question like rights of nature,
33:55.331 --> 33:57.192
rights of animals. this is
33:57.192 --> 33:58.992
something I am fascinated by and
33:58.992 --> 33:59.992
actually have been wanting to
33:59.992 --> 34:01.552
dig into more myself and when
34:01.552 --> 34:03.732
I'm able to, because, you know,
34:03.904 --> 34:05.429
kind of this question of, uh,
34:05.786 --> 34:08.166
does nature, for example, like a
34:08.166 --> 34:10.246
river inherently have rights
34:10.246 --> 34:12.042
that you can use the, like,
34:12.042 --> 34:14.962
legal tools to protect? And if
34:14.962 --> 34:17.216
so, does that open up avenues
34:17.216 --> 34:18.876
for, like, legal recourse or
34:18.876 --> 34:20.636
litigation that might not exist?
34:20.022 --> 34:22.682
Um, of course, in the U. S., uh,
34:22.682 --> 34:24.262
we have, like,standing doctrine
34:24.262 --> 34:25.945
and lots of, of things that go
34:25.945 --> 34:27.805
into being able to bring a And,
34:27.805 --> 34:29.245
but there are other countries,
34:29.666 --> 34:30.706
perhaps this is something we can
34:30.706 --> 34:31.846
link to in the comments, and
34:31.846 --> 34:33.426
I'll, I'll do some research and
34:33.426 --> 34:34.386
send you some stuff, Meredith.
34:34.386 --> 34:35.906
But I think there are other
34:35.906 --> 34:37.226
countries in the world that are
34:37.226 --> 34:38.446
pushing forward this idea of,
34:38.446 --> 34:40.026
like, rights of nature. And it's
34:40.026 --> 34:41.646
a really interesting area to
34:41.646 --> 34:43.282
think about, like, what are new
34:43.282 --> 34:45.082
types of legal protections that
34:45.082 --> 34:48.076
could come from a to that type
34:48.076 --> 34:49.776
of, like, legal possibility,
34:49.776 --> 34:50.916
right? And, like, what comes
34:50.916 --> 34:51.876
after if you're able to
34:51.876 --> 34:52.286
establish that?
34:53.483 --> 34:55.623
ta me back about 40 years or
34:55.424 --> 34:57.832
animals but father, who was a
34:58.832 --> 35:00.952
brought a, uh, action on behalf
35:01.208 --> 35:04.708
a tree on one of uncle's,
35:04.961 --> 35:07.221
properties, which had been there,
35:07.135 --> 35:10.435
at the time of George Washington.
35:09.945 --> 35:10.445
Wow.
35:10.435 --> 35:13.725
And. This, the state was,
35:13.900 --> 35:15.760
widening the road and they
35:15.760 --> 35:18.136
wanted to tear down the tree. so
35:18.136 --> 35:19.676
he brought this action on behalf
35:19.676 --> 35:21.847
of the tree uh, uh, actually won
35:21.847 --> 35:24.527
it. so the tree prevailed and
35:24.860 --> 35:26.747
weren't able take it down.
35:27.139 --> 35:28.699
I would love to read about that.
35:29.151 --> 35:30.391
by any chance, do you remember
35:30.391 --> 35:31.851
the name of that case and the
35:31.851 --> 35:33.331
court from 40 years ago?
35:33.483 --> 35:35.613
Well, and, and, and I'm not even
35:35.613 --> 35:37.213
sure that it would have been, I
35:37.213 --> 35:38.929
mean, cause it was local
35:38.678 --> 35:38.698
sure.
35:38.929 --> 35:38.979
court.
35:39.008 --> 35:39.398
Yeah.
35:39.319 --> 35:41.609
I'm not even That it would have
35:41.609 --> 35:42.909
been reported
35:42.568 --> 35:42.778
Yeah.
35:42.909 --> 35:44.749
and published. So no, I don't
35:44.749 --> 35:45.801
think I can locate it.
35:46.881 --> 35:49.181
can we technically call gone?
35:49.261 --> 35:50.201
That's what I called my
35:50.201 --> 35:51.315
grandfather, an environmentalist.
35:52.374 --> 35:55.512
Well, you could, he certainly, l
35:55.512 --> 35:57.246
nature. that was something very
35:57.246 --> 35:59.378
important, to him. you remember
35:59.378 --> 36:00.138
Lake Titus.
36:00.300 --> 36:01.910
Yeah. Alex, our, our Lockwood
36:01.910 --> 36:03.450
side of the family, we're so
36:03.450 --> 36:04.597
blessed that, in the Adirondacks
36:04.777 --> 36:07.077
upstate New York, Very close to
36:07.077 --> 36:09.765
Montreal. we have a family
36:09.765 --> 36:13.516
bungalow camp, beautiful lake
36:13.092 --> 36:15.001
side house, in Lake Titus. It's
36:15.001 --> 36:16.481
a very small lake. The only way
36:16.481 --> 36:19.441
to get to our bungalow is by
36:19.646 --> 36:22.329
boat. and also every night you
36:22.329 --> 36:23.669
get to just see the loons and
36:23.669 --> 36:25.847
hear them all night long. we
36:25.847 --> 36:26.826
just wish we didn't live so
36:28.223 --> 36:28.423
Yeah.
36:29.292 --> 36:31.480
and it's, perfect, Alex, as
36:31.480 --> 36:32.700
Meredith said, y can only get to
36:32.710 --> 36:35.587
by boat. So, you don't have to,
36:35.832 --> 36:38.112
entertain people that you don't
36:38.112 --> 36:41.793
want to. You just don't. But
36:41.793 --> 36:42.653
Meredith, I don't know if you
36:42.653 --> 36:44.373
can see this. I just read last
36:44.373 --> 36:46.453
night, this book you sent me by
36:46.453 --> 36:47.103
Emma Gilligan.
36:47.298 --> 36:48.948
Oh yes. She's at Indiana
36:48.948 --> 36:49.788
university. Yeah.
36:49.925 --> 36:53.025
Yeah. the future and you, her
36:53.025 --> 36:53.125
primary advice
36:55.185 --> 36:58.859
is take time and go to nature, a
36:58.859 --> 37:00.949
lake or a mountain and hike and,
37:00.949 --> 37:04.579
but be totally off the grid, no
37:04.579 --> 37:05.939
contact. You don't bring your
37:05.939 --> 37:08.451
cell phone or anything. it's
37:08.451 --> 37:10.697
what we need to have for, a
37:10.697 --> 37:11.447
healthy living.
37:11.855 --> 37:13.505
well, the Japanese call that
37:13.495 --> 37:15.278
forest bathing um, therapeutic
37:15.278 --> 37:17.158
to go into nature and walk among
37:17.158 --> 37:20.023
trees and, listen to birds. U, a
37:20.023 --> 37:21.383
Alex, for your love of nature,
37:21.383 --> 37:22.343
you grew up in the Pacific
37:22.343 --> 37:23.643
Northwest, but you've spent
37:23.643 --> 37:25.683
recent years in D. C. and now
37:25.683 --> 37:27.303
Chicago, which Chicago is
37:27.303 --> 37:28.183
absolutely beautiful,
37:28.183 --> 37:29.123
particularly in the summertime
37:29.123 --> 37:31.049
with the lake everything. do you
37:31.049 --> 37:32.749
miss a little bit of that more
37:32.749 --> 37:34.639
Pacific Northwest nature?
37:35.322 --> 37:37.829
I always miss nature. I love
37:37.829 --> 37:39.149
living in cities. Like I love
37:39.149 --> 37:40.349
being around community and
37:40.349 --> 37:42.149
people and, you know, the city
37:42.149 --> 37:43.929
life, but everywhere I've lived,
37:43.929 --> 37:46.418
I've I imagine just walking and
37:46.418 --> 37:48.018
sitting in a forest to the point
37:48.018 --> 37:49.158
you just made, right? Like at
37:49.158 --> 37:50.658
any point in time to rest and
37:50.658 --> 37:52.488
recharge. where I grew up in the
37:52.488 --> 37:53.988
Pacific Northwest is a little
37:53.988 --> 37:55.546
unique because it's a, a
37:55.546 --> 37:57.266
semi-arid climate. And so it's
37:57.266 --> 37:59.046
actually quite dry. So I have
37:59.046 --> 38:00.466
this like deep rooted love of
38:00.466 --> 38:03.246
deserts from my time in like
38:03.246 --> 38:04.326
where I grew up.So it's a
38:04.326 --> 38:05.846
little different than the usual
38:05.846 --> 38:07.746
Pacific Northwest, like
38:07.746 --> 38:10.466
rainforest trees. And to answer
38:10.466 --> 38:11.926
your question, yes, but it's
38:11.926 --> 38:13.406
funny because I almost, I miss
38:13.406 --> 38:15.681
like, the literal tumbleweaves
38:15.681 --> 38:17.401
that would roll down the street.
38:17.401 --> 38:19.131
Right. I love desert climates.
38:19.221 --> 38:20.231
So I think they're like
38:20.231 --> 38:21.931
beautiful, wonderful ecosystems.
38:21.931 --> 38:24.202
And so, I always miss nature,but
38:24.202 --> 38:25.482
my, my version of the Pacific
38:25.482 --> 38:26.782
Northwest is a little different.
38:26.782 --> 38:27.032
Yeah.
38:27.307 --> 38:29.108
That makes sense. Um, I wanted
38:29.108 --> 38:32.076
to ask a legal question that we
38:32.076 --> 38:33.956
were talking about protecting
38:33.956 --> 38:35.719
species. Alex, I'm right there
38:35.719 --> 38:37.239
with you. I would love to dive
38:37.239 --> 38:39.419
into this using law,
38:39.419 --> 38:41.239
international law to protect
38:41.239 --> 38:43.434
species, both animals and even
38:43.434 --> 38:45.289
plants. And I'm thinking of the
38:45.289 --> 38:46.869
devastating oil spills we've
38:46.869 --> 38:48.575
seen at the hand of Shell. know,
38:49.891 --> 38:51.751
sorry, 2016, t Gulf of Mexico
38:51.751 --> 38:54.313
spill. they discharged over
38:54.303 --> 38:57.663
88,000 gallons of crude oil
38:58.664 --> 39:00.334
around 97 miles off the
39:00.324 --> 39:02.607
Louisiana coast. So I think all
39:02.607 --> 39:03.767
of us remember looking at the
39:03.757 --> 39:06.547
newsfeed and seeing the live
39:06.547 --> 39:09.267
videos and images of seabirds
39:09.257 --> 39:11.831
and turtles and other, marine
39:11.831 --> 39:14.321
life devastated by the oil spill.
39:15.001 --> 39:16.697
So I hope it never happens again,
39:16.697 --> 39:17.917
but the sad part is it will
39:17.917 --> 39:20.069
happen again if we were to use
39:20.069 --> 39:22.099
international law, maybe it's
39:22.099 --> 39:23.992
different in the ocean versus in
39:23.992 --> 39:26.839
a country's territory, who would
39:26.839 --> 39:30.099
be the legal force to sue on
39:30.099 --> 39:32.997
behalf of about sea life, it's
39:32.997 --> 39:34.757
uncharted territory with the
39:34.757 --> 39:34.997
oceans.
39:35.294 --> 39:37.567
So I imagine Burt has more smart
39:37.567 --> 39:38.727
things than I do to say about
39:38.727 --> 39:41.081
this. but with the classic
39:41.081 --> 39:43.081
lawyer qualifier of I'm not an
39:43.081 --> 39:44.601
expert in this area of law. So
39:44.601 --> 39:46.461
take this with a grain of salt,
39:46.461 --> 39:48.781
uh, not legal advice as lawyers
39:48.781 --> 39:51.289
love to say. Ri. Um, my general
39:51.289 --> 39:52.789
understanding is that under the
39:52.789 --> 39:54.429
UN convention on the law of the
39:54.429 --> 39:57.149
sea, there is a particular
39:57.149 --> 39:59.509
distance from territorial land.
40:00.099 --> 40:02.269
Like into the ocean that
40:02.269 --> 40:04.429
countries have kind of sovereign
40:03.722 --> 40:06.659
like rights to. so to your
40:06.659 --> 40:08.572
question of things that happen
40:08.572 --> 40:10.072
in that, you know, quo,
40:10.072 --> 40:12.052
exclusive economic zone or
40:12.052 --> 40:13.232
territorial sea, right. There's,
40:13.232 --> 40:14.412
there's different boundaries.
40:14.870 --> 40:15.590
200 miles.
40:15.598 --> 40:17.777
about 200 miles. Yes. I imagine
40:17.777 --> 40:19.937
that is within a particular
40:19.937 --> 40:21.302
country's of jurisdiction,
40:21.302 --> 40:22.482
though. I would want to go look
40:22.482 --> 40:24.622
that up in terms of the high
40:24.622 --> 40:26.282
seas. Right. So areas where no
40:26.282 --> 40:28.348
country has, of economic right
40:28.348 --> 40:29.668
or territorial right, whatever
40:29.668 --> 40:31.413
it is. I don't know the answer
40:31.413 --> 40:32.713
off the top of my head. I do
40:32.713 --> 40:34.251
know that, over the last couple
40:34.251 --> 40:35.831
of years, there were
40:35.831 --> 40:37.414
negotiations and a new, new
40:37.414 --> 40:40.706
treaty has come about I call it
40:40.706 --> 40:42.626
BBNJ because that's kind of the
40:42.626 --> 40:44.506
short acronym. I, I need to look
40:44.506 --> 40:46.266
up the exact name, but it's
40:46.266 --> 40:47.326
basically like the high seas
40:47.326 --> 40:48.906
treaty. I don't know if there
40:48.906 --> 40:50.486
are provisions for that sort of
40:50.486 --> 40:51.826
thing in there for like
40:51.826 --> 40:53.146
environmental damage on the high
40:53.146 --> 40:54.126
seas. I would need to go read
40:54.126 --> 40:55.646
the text of that, that latest
40:55.646 --> 40:56.256
treaty.
40:56.132 --> 40:58.442
there's, there's a recent case
40:58.442 --> 41:00.413
and I'm trying to if it was the,
41:01.023 --> 41:02.844
international court of justice
41:02.977 --> 41:05.942
or not on behalf of children who
41:05.942 --> 41:07.922
were suing for future
41:07.922 --> 41:10.336
generations on environmental
41:10.645 --> 41:12.605
issues. And they found they had
41:12.605 --> 41:15.246
standing safety. to bring action
41:15.246 --> 41:17.401
against countries, that would be
41:17.412 --> 41:20.078
if I'm correct, a good example
41:20.078 --> 41:23.038
of possible being able to
41:23.038 --> 41:24.768
establish that you have an
41:24.768 --> 41:27.428
interest in present-day actions
41:27.428 --> 41:30.828
because of its future impacts,
41:30.828 --> 41:32.912
um, so, yeah, I think there are
41:32.912 --> 41:35.074
some fairly recent, within the
41:35.074 --> 41:37.990
past two years, uh, cases I
41:37.990 --> 41:41.251
would good precedence for being
41:41.251 --> 41:44.012
able to find a broader group of
41:44.012 --> 41:45.494
individuals that can sue on this
41:45.494 --> 41:45.604
matter.
41:46.391 --> 41:47.931
I really hope we see that more
41:47.931 --> 41:50.304
and more, um, and if I may guide
41:50.304 --> 41:52.983
us to our last two topics, which,
41:52.974 --> 41:54.394
for AI, we've already touched a
41:54.394 --> 41:55.894
little bit on the iceberg, but
41:55.894 --> 41:58.734
I'd love to compassionately
41:58.734 --> 42:01.219
spotlight and what happened this
42:01.219 --> 42:02.759
year with the devastating
42:03.838 --> 42:05.308
looking up some of the key key
42:05.947 --> 42:09.472
of elevation of how high the
42:09.472 --> 42:12.473
flood reached in the valley was
42:12.473 --> 42:17.186
2,600 feet. it went well over
42:17.186 --> 42:19.046
four to five miles from the
42:19.046 --> 42:21.726
origin point. And we know one of
42:21.726 --> 42:25.626
the core causes was the melting
42:25.626 --> 42:27.786
of the snow on the mountains
42:27.786 --> 42:30.224
into the glacier. and Alex,
42:30.224 --> 42:31.204
since we have the honor of
42:31.204 --> 42:33.504
having you and your climate
42:33.504 --> 42:35.124
expertise, could you share with
42:35.124 --> 42:36.983
our listeners a little bit about
42:36.983 --> 42:39.023
the Nepal flooding and also the
42:39.023 --> 42:41.534
implications Nepalese and
42:41.534 --> 42:42.712
Tibetan the border region
42:43.131 --> 42:44.471
there are a lot of shocking
42:44.471 --> 42:46.051
climate events that happen and
42:46.051 --> 42:48.711
have happened over the last few
42:48.711 --> 42:51.414
years. this one, I feel like I'm
42:51.414 --> 42:53.134
still somewhat in shock over
42:53.134 --> 42:54.814
just seeing the scale of the
42:54.814 --> 42:56.304
destruction and devastation.
42:56.974 --> 42:58.454
just reading yesterday or two
42:58.454 --> 42:59.514
days ago that there are
42:59.514 --> 43:01.294
something like over 5,000 people
43:01.294 --> 43:02.954
that are still missing and
43:02.954 --> 43:05.986
unaccounted for. I guess from a
43:06.074 --> 43:07.974
climate perspective, if is a
43:07.974 --> 43:09.329
climate perspective here, that,
43:09.237 --> 43:10.477
there have been some studies
43:10.477 --> 43:12.861
that, of came out after the
43:12.861 --> 43:14.281
flooding where it was like, okay,
43:14.281 --> 43:15.801
well, perhaps there were
43:15.801 --> 43:17.811
multiple factors at play here.
43:18.341 --> 43:20.404
So it's, know, climate change
43:20.737 --> 43:22.397
caused glacial retreat, right.
43:22.407 --> 43:25.837
Which is then fine frozen ground
43:25.837 --> 43:27.637
that bound mountain rock
43:27.637 --> 43:29.017
together. And so as that starts
43:29.017 --> 43:30.887
to melt of because of climate
43:30.887 --> 43:33.366
change, that plus, past
43:33.366 --> 43:34.306
earthquakes, like all of this,
43:34.306 --> 43:36.086
like confluence of factors can
43:36.086 --> 43:37.338
result in some of these like
43:37.338 --> 43:39.058
events that we are seeing, and
43:38.912 --> 43:39.992
of climate change is
43:39.992 --> 43:42.732
intensifying processes that,
43:42.637 --> 43:43.627
make everything less stable.
43:43.637 --> 43:46.371
Right. Um, that and I think the
43:46.371 --> 43:47.908
thing strikes me in thinking
43:47.908 --> 43:49.858
about that is, earlier in this
43:49.858 --> 43:51.018
conversation, I made a
43:51.018 --> 43:52.658
distinction between like extreme
43:52.658 --> 43:54.058
events and slow onset events.
43:54.318 --> 43:56.798
And I'm maybe questioning my own
43:56.798 --> 43:58.398
use of that distinction to this
43:58.398 --> 44:00.538
day. Right. Because I think
44:00.538 --> 44:02.898
glacial retreat as a climate
44:02.898 --> 44:04.598
impact is something most folks
44:04.598 --> 44:06.118
would largely have considered a
44:06.118 --> 44:08.058
slow onset event, right. It
44:08.058 --> 44:09.552
happens because of warming
44:09.552 --> 44:10.972
temperatures over time. But
44:10.972 --> 44:13.688
here's an example of like a like
44:13.688 --> 44:15.208
shocking and extreme event that
44:15.208 --> 44:16.468
happened as a result, at least
44:16.468 --> 44:18.428
in part because of glacial
44:18.428 --> 44:20.961
retreat. And so, know, maybe
44:20.961 --> 44:22.721
breaking down that artificial
44:22.721 --> 44:24.381
barrier between like immediate
44:24.381 --> 44:26.921
and long-term climate effects
44:26.921 --> 44:29.941
we're seeing now just in Nepal
44:29.941 --> 44:32.010
about what it looks when you
44:32.010 --> 44:33.490
start to see this scale of
44:33.490 --> 44:35.030
devastation and the amount of
44:35.030 --> 44:36.110
recovery and reconstruction
44:36.110 --> 44:38.505
that's going to, be happening,
44:38.300 --> 44:39.230
just in the wake of this event.
44:39.240 --> 44:40.420
Right. And much less the things
44:40.420 --> 44:42.247
that may still be to come. so,
44:42.247 --> 44:43.192
you know, perhaps we can't
44:43.192 --> 44:44.382
really think long-term anymore.
44:44.462 --> 44:45.612
Like there's nothing that we can
44:45.612 --> 44:47.032
in our minds say, well, that's a
44:47.032 --> 44:48.432
problem for the future. Right.
44:48.792 --> 44:50.152
We need to start like grappling
44:50.152 --> 44:51.372
with the fact that these impacts
44:51.372 --> 44:52.652
are happening now and we're
44:52.652 --> 44:54.252
seeing such stark implications
44:54.252 --> 44:54.642
right now.
44:54.761 --> 44:55.941
I think I'm the same way. I
44:55.941 --> 44:57.808
don't think I've even fully
44:58.059 --> 45:00.459
comprehended those videos we
45:00.459 --> 45:02.097
watched and, the loss of life.
45:02.267 --> 45:04.024
And like you said, they were
45:04.024 --> 45:05.664
still trying to recover workers
45:05.664 --> 45:07.749
in the hydro plant. and we also
45:07.749 --> 45:10.545
know that global media, Moves
45:10.555 --> 45:12.215
quickly to the next devastation,
45:12.215 --> 45:13.931
the next headline. so even for
45:13.931 --> 45:15.711
our conversation today, I know
45:15.711 --> 45:17.361
you and I, Alex, were actively
45:17.351 --> 45:20.224
looking for updates it wasn't as
45:20.224 --> 45:22.695
easy to find them. and then
45:22.695 --> 45:26.355
we're going to move over to AI
45:26.355 --> 45:28.135
data centers. and I think it's
45:28.135 --> 45:30.295
important to note that this
45:30.295 --> 45:33.250
topic isn't just going to be all
45:33.250 --> 45:34.770
negative about AI data centers.
45:35.270 --> 45:36.890
I think there is a balance of
45:36.890 --> 45:39.650
good AI and also consequential
45:39.650 --> 45:42.410
AI. Dad, you shared with me and
45:42.410 --> 45:43.850
I forwarded it to Alex an
45:43.850 --> 45:45.150
interesting New York Times
45:45.150 --> 45:47.530
article that actually put a
45:47.530 --> 45:50.410
positive light on AI and coastal
45:50.410 --> 45:50.727
regions. Yes.
45:52.171 --> 45:54.976
And didn't it indicate us AI
45:54.976 --> 45:58.036
like it would only take a day to
45:58.036 --> 46:02.113
be able to, adjust the waters in
46:02.113 --> 46:05.620
the coastal area to, uh, avoid
46:05.620 --> 46:07.695
erosion and to have actually,
46:07.695 --> 46:09.535
actually be building up
46:09.535 --> 46:10.105
sandbars-
46:10.266 --> 46:12.646
Yeah, so the article title is
46:12.646 --> 46:14.026
Rising Seas Are Gobbling Up
46:14.026 --> 46:17.086
Beaches Around the World. AI
46:17.086 --> 46:18.366
Might Restore Them. And for
46:18.229 --> 46:18.780
it'll
46:18.366 --> 46:19.546
our audience, that'll be linked
46:19.546 --> 46:22.675
in our show notes. Alex, this
46:22.675 --> 46:24.175
organization called Coastal
46:24.175 --> 46:25.956
Assembly. It's a company that
46:25.956 --> 46:28.149
originates from MIT Research.
46:28.263 --> 46:30.583
they're using AI and ocean
46:30.583 --> 46:32.823
current data to extend a beach
46:32.823 --> 46:34.359
in the Maldives, which we just
46:34.349 --> 46:36.953
talked about. And that beach,
46:36.953 --> 46:38.733
approximately 90 feet toward the
46:38.733 --> 46:41.093
ocean, and it's a 300-foot
46:41.093 --> 46:43.193
stretch. And the timeline my dad
46:43.193 --> 46:45.753
is talking about is that this AI
46:45.753 --> 46:47.977
model has helped reduce the time
46:47.977 --> 46:50.388
needed to assess coastal erosion
46:50.388 --> 46:52.768
and develop solutions from
46:52.768 --> 46:54.568
months and months of work to
46:54.568 --> 46:56.928
approximately one day. And now
46:56.928 --> 46:58.588
Coastal Assembly has grown so
46:58.588 --> 47:00.868
much that they're monitoring 90
47:00.868 --> 47:03.748
coastal sites, including more
47:03.748 --> 47:04.098
insulation. And here's a lot of
47:04.098 --> 47:05.748
solutions in the Maldives with
47:05.748 --> 47:08.708
projects also for the Bahamas,
47:08.708 --> 47:13.036
Boston Harbor, and isn't that
47:13.036 --> 47:15.816
fascinating? I really had no
47:15.816 --> 47:18.476
idea that that was that
47:18.476 --> 47:19.396
successful so quickly. Yeah.
47:20.253 --> 47:21.768
and it's always helpful you want
47:21.768 --> 47:23.408
to solve a problem, if you can,
47:23.614 --> 47:25.004
make a profit doing it.
47:25.346 --> 47:27.886
That is extremely true. That is
47:27.886 --> 47:28.317
extremely true.
47:30.834 --> 47:32.264
Which gets into the topic about
47:32.264 --> 47:32.904
corporate accountability.
47:35.594 --> 47:37.814
Again, weighing the good and bad.
47:38.702 --> 47:39.602
Of course, which I know you're
47:39.602 --> 47:41.664
an expert in, Meredith. you know,
47:41.664 --> 47:44.204
I feel like examples like these,
47:44.129 --> 47:48.419
I AI to be such a fascinating
47:48.419 --> 47:49.439
conversation. It's like, I feel
47:49.439 --> 47:50.879
like, especially these days, it
47:50.879 --> 47:52.799
almost to me feels like, it's
47:52.799 --> 47:54.659
like, okay, do we want to talk
47:54.659 --> 47:56.279
about, which as, as you
47:56.279 --> 47:57.119
mentioned at the beginning,
47:57.119 --> 47:58.019
Meredith, I actually am trying
47:58.019 --> 47:59.219
to avoid these days, like the
47:59.219 --> 48:01.099
apocalyptic scenarios of climate
48:01.099 --> 48:01.779
change. Or do you want to talk
48:01.779 --> 48:03.429
about the apocalyptic scenarios
48:03.429 --> 48:05.709
of AI? And sometimes I'm like,
48:05.709 --> 48:06.889
well, it'd be fun to think about
48:06.889 --> 48:09.231
like the positive things could
48:09.231 --> 48:10.531
happen and the way that society
48:10.531 --> 48:12.091
could be bettered by all of this
48:12.091 --> 48:13.471
rapid change if we're able to do
48:13.471 --> 48:15.311
it responsibly in a way that,
48:15.311 --> 48:16.952
that makes sense. and it's
48:16.952 --> 48:18.032
stories like that, or I feel
48:18.032 --> 48:19.552
like I, I' talked to some
48:19.552 --> 48:20.852
friends who work in the
48:20.852 --> 48:21.932
environmental space who have
48:21.932 --> 48:23.532
shared examples with me about
48:23.532 --> 48:25.732
particularly data and science
48:25.732 --> 48:27.672
applications where like new
48:27.672 --> 48:29.538
areas of, of research or data
48:29.538 --> 48:30.818
analysis have come about. That's
48:30.818 --> 48:32.298
really like helped support their
48:32.298 --> 48:33.803
work because of, know,
48:33.803 --> 48:36.085
advancements in AI. I tend to
48:36.085 --> 48:37.645
think of AI also sometimes a
48:37.645 --> 48:38.905
little separate, it's like, it's
48:38.905 --> 48:40.425
almost separated in my mind
48:40.425 --> 48:43.365
sometimes between like machine
48:43.365 --> 48:44.823
learning, know, scientific
48:44.823 --> 48:46.163
advancements. That's like a
48:46.163 --> 48:47.603
field that I think back to my
48:47.603 --> 48:49.303
time when I was an undergraduate
48:49.303 --> 48:51.023
at MIT and people were talking
48:51.023 --> 48:52.503
about it then and thinking about
48:52.503 --> 48:53.843
like, what's like the next
48:53.843 --> 48:55.579
generation of, of science and
48:55.579 --> 48:57.259
how do we think about how the
48:57.259 --> 48:59.177
future here. And then in my mind,
48:59.177 --> 49:00.517
that's a little bit separated
49:00.517 --> 49:02.197
from these large like language
49:02.197 --> 49:03.437
learning models that are all of
49:03.437 --> 49:04.897
a sudden kind of at the
49:04.897 --> 49:06.240
forefront of the discourse.
49:06.350 --> 49:09.017
Right. but certainly I do find
49:09.017 --> 49:10.697
it fascinating to read about,
49:10.697 --> 49:12.897
hear about examples of
49:12.673 --> 49:15.073
technology, technology, or for
49:15.073 --> 49:16.653
example, like extreme weather
49:16.653 --> 49:18.746
monitoring, better understanding
49:18.746 --> 49:22.761
of how, land or water is, being
49:22.761 --> 49:24.198
impacted at any point in time
49:24.198 --> 49:26.261
and how much, like water there
49:26.261 --> 49:27.901
are in freshwater reserves, like
49:27.901 --> 49:30.481
the, the uses of new types of
49:30.481 --> 49:31.681
machine learning that can help
49:31.681 --> 49:33.041
us as a society better
49:33.041 --> 49:34.821
understand those things. And it
49:34.821 --> 49:36.041
sounds like this article is, is
49:36.041 --> 49:36.651
one of those.
49:36.560 --> 49:38.801
Absolutely.you know, a report
49:38.801 --> 49:42.281
you shared with us, was the. By
49:42.281 --> 49:44.241
the United Nations University
49:44.241 --> 49:45.961
titled Environmental Costs of
49:45.961 --> 49:48.981
AI's Energy Use, Carbon, Water,
49:48.981 --> 49:52.087
and Land Footprint. I dived into
49:52.087 --> 49:54.726
all the research some of the
49:54.726 --> 49:56.626
data in science was hard for me
49:56.626 --> 49:58.918
to equate. So when I looked
49:58.918 --> 50:00.858
further into it, and I'll share
50:00.858 --> 50:02.618
a little bit about the research,
50:02.641 --> 50:04.914
it was saying that, know, if AI
50:04.914 --> 50:07.174
data centers continue at the
50:07.174 --> 50:09.846
speed they are currently at, and
50:09.846 --> 50:11.886
we're only going to see probably
50:11.886 --> 50:16.210
more rapid is right now, 945
50:16.210 --> 50:19.710
terawatts per hour are projected
50:19.710 --> 50:21.570
annual global electricity
50:21.570 --> 50:23.390
consumption of these data
50:23.390 --> 50:26.640
centers by 2030. Now, to give
50:26.640 --> 50:28.840
perspective, that's roughly the
50:28.840 --> 50:30.860
electricity used by the entire
50:30.860 --> 50:32.960
country of Japan. I just
50:32.960 --> 50:34.720
mentioned they're forced bathing,
50:34.720 --> 50:38.187
so this is a very big Or, to
50:38.187 --> 50:39.687
bring it to an American lens,
50:39.687 --> 50:42.467
that's about 85 million U. S.
50:42.467 --> 50:44.247
homes, which includes our
50:44.247 --> 50:46.847
heating, ACs, fridges, lights,
50:46.847 --> 50:50.007
TVs, cooking appliances, etc.
50:50.002 --> 50:53.722
also, these data centers will
50:53.722 --> 50:56.322
consume an estimated of 9.3
50:56.322 --> 50:59.122
trillion liters as an estimation
50:59.122 --> 51:01.102
of annual water footprint
51:01.102 --> 51:04.558
associated again by 2030. last
51:04.558 --> 51:05.458
but not least, when we look at
51:05.458 --> 51:08.658
the land usage, the estimate is
51:08.658 --> 51:13.018
14,500 square kilometers of
51:13.018 --> 51:15.731
projected land mass say needed
51:15.731 --> 51:19.121
by said AI centers. mean, I mean,
51:19.121 --> 51:21.391
I think a good question to ask
51:21.391 --> 51:22.331
both to ask both you, Alex, and
51:22.331 --> 51:25.775
my dad, is from a human rights
51:25.775 --> 51:26.875
perspective and environmental
51:26.875 --> 51:28.975
justice perspective, with
51:28.975 --> 51:30.755
communities that are being
51:30.755 --> 51:34.525
impacted by this, who pays for
51:34.525 --> 51:38.525
the build-out? Who pays the high
51:38.525 --> 51:40.465
cost of electricity? And also,
51:40.465 --> 51:42.805
how do we shield households from
51:42.805 --> 51:43.853
said implications?
51:44.700 --> 51:46.805
I mean, feel like that's the
51:47.291 --> 51:49.331
million-dollar, billion-dollar
51:49.331 --> 51:50.911
question these days, right,
51:50.911 --> 51:50.951
Meredith?
51:51.311 --> 51:52.841
I love that you just took it to
51:52.841 --> 51:54.521
billion, beca I just did the
51:54.521 --> 51:55.441
exact same thing as you. I was
51:55.441 --> 51:55.921
like, well, that's the
51:55.921 --> 51:56.741
million-dollar question. Then my
51:56.741 --> 51:58.221
brain was like, we're in
51:58.221 --> 51:58.859
billions now.
51:59.758 --> 52:01.948
Even more, right, which is, yeah,
52:01.948 --> 52:04.218
a bit energy, That's the
52:04.218 --> 52:06.329
question, you know, you have
52:06.329 --> 52:08.751
these data centers that require
52:08.751 --> 52:10.731
a lot of energy, that are being
52:10.731 --> 52:12.631
connected to grid systems. Are
52:12.631 --> 52:15.251
costs passed on to rate payers
52:15.251 --> 52:17.212
who then see electricity bills
52:17.212 --> 52:20.559
raised? Do you require data
52:20.559 --> 52:22.599
centers to bring their own
52:22.599 --> 52:24.759
energy to the grid and pay for
52:24.759 --> 52:26.379
it separately? How does that
52:26.379 --> 52:28.788
work if they do that? there a
52:28.788 --> 52:30.348
requirement that it's renewable
52:31.025 --> 52:33.305
Or is it gas plants? Is it
52:33.305 --> 52:34.925
diesel generators? Like, what is
52:34.925 --> 52:37.382
the mix of energy? Nucl, we
52:37.382 --> 52:38.242
talked about a little bit
52:38.242 --> 52:40.467
earlier, right? I think the
52:40.467 --> 52:42.287
question to be grappled with.That
52:42.287 --> 52:44.787
is a huge amount of energy that
52:44.787 --> 52:48.908
you mentioned, adding to our
52:48.898 --> 52:50.498
grid systems in a very short
52:50.508 --> 52:53.348
amount of time, right? And so I
52:53.348 --> 52:55.568
don't know, I can imagine a
52:55.568 --> 52:57.428
world where perhaps everything
52:57.428 --> 53:01.488
is required to be renewables and
53:01.488 --> 53:04.268
that actually then helps
53:04.268 --> 53:05.828
facilitate a clean energy
53:05.828 --> 53:07.248
transition. And you could
53:07.248 --> 53:08.988
imagine it in a way where
53:08.988 --> 53:10.648
communities have a lot of
53:10.648 --> 53:13.228
autonomy and decision-making
53:13.228 --> 53:14.548
authority that also helps
53:14.548 --> 53:16.631
facilitate a just transition.That
53:16.631 --> 53:17.731
you can imagine a lot of ways
53:17.731 --> 53:19.411
in which it doesn't really go
53:19.411 --> 53:20.761
down that path too, right?
53:21.286 --> 53:26.402
There's a lot of to this and the
53:26.402 --> 53:31.384
reactions of local where
53:31.022 --> 53:35.531
citizens public protests city
53:35.531 --> 53:38.202
councils, the local level in
53:38.202 --> 53:40.492
addition the states, but there
53:40.492 --> 53:42.982
are a number challenges that are
53:42.982 --> 53:46.692
taking place and protesting the
53:46.692 --> 53:49.292
location. And there's been
53:49.292 --> 53:52.612
marked success so far of their
53:52.612 --> 53:55.432
being able to defeat those
53:55.432 --> 53:57.804
efforts of... And not democratic
53:57.804 --> 54:00.610
or Republican. It's in for some
54:00.610 --> 54:03.947
of these the impact will be that
54:03.947 --> 54:06.642
it's gonna use all the water,
54:07.223 --> 54:09.803
it'd be devastating to their
54:09.803 --> 54:11.866
sewage systems and just, they,
54:11.866 --> 54:14.312
they don't the resources to be
54:14.312 --> 54:18.030
able to accommodate these. I
54:18.020 --> 54:20.180
think companies have been
54:20.180 --> 54:22.097
somewhat sensitive to uh,
54:22.107 --> 54:24.415
reaction of the public, to what
54:24.415 --> 54:26.500
they're attempting to do. But, I
54:26.500 --> 54:27.540
think it's fair to say it's
54:27.540 --> 54:29.300
probably gonna be a, a mixed
54:29.300 --> 54:29.350
result.
54:30.282 --> 54:33.038
Well, I wanted ask you about
54:33.193 --> 54:35.580
being an Ohioan such a key state
54:35.580 --> 54:37.732
for the midterms. when I was
54:37.732 --> 54:40.092
home recently, there were so
54:40.092 --> 54:42.592
many political ads on your TV
54:42.592 --> 54:44.452
and it was an onslaught of
54:44.452 --> 54:47.072
negativity and just really
54:47.072 --> 54:50.012
unattractive targeting opponents
54:49.783 --> 54:52.832
and but I do think a bipartisan
54:52.832 --> 54:54.353
issue that we've seen
54:55.040 --> 54:56.680
Republicans and Democrats come
54:56.680 --> 54:58.180
together on is these AI data
54:58.180 --> 55:00.040
centers. Do you feel like that's
55:00.040 --> 55:03.091
a big talking point on the
55:03.081 --> 55:04.421
ballot, dad, for the state of
55:04.421 --> 55:04.651
Ohio?
55:05.120 --> 55:05.720
Uh, no.
55:05.638 --> 55:06.878
are you answering for the state
55:06.878 --> 55:08.278
of Ohio or are you answering for
55:08.278 --> 55:09.193
the city of Cincinnati?
55:09.604 --> 55:13.424
Well, I'm basing it and.
55:13.606 --> 55:16.012
Television and, and reactions uh,
55:15.914 --> 55:18.274
I think the economy is what is
55:18.274 --> 55:20.592
the top ranked issue. uh,
55:20.592 --> 55:22.652
currently, a having said that
55:22.606 --> 55:26.062
it's the Bill Clinton line. it's
55:26.458 --> 55:27.958
basically the wallet based
55:27.958 --> 55:29.777
issues and mean, people being
55:29.777 --> 55:31.515
priced out the healthcare, And
55:31.515 --> 55:34.235
that's really scary for lots of
55:34.949 --> 55:36.629
it changes your whole
55:36.629 --> 55:37.703
perspective and life.
55:38.418 --> 55:40.217
I add that I think, to this
55:40.217 --> 55:43.318
point what hits the I think
55:43.318 --> 55:45.149
people throw around the word
55:45.149 --> 55:48.094
affordability quite a bit. in
55:48.094 --> 55:50.061
this context, perhaps there's
55:49.946 --> 55:51.826
like one link in the causal
55:51.826 --> 55:53.786
chain. Right. But certainly I
55:53.786 --> 55:55.566
think utility bills are like
55:55.566 --> 55:57.766
genuinely so high for so many
55:57.766 --> 56:00.335
people. like 20% of your income,
56:00.335 --> 56:01.895
15% of your income. Like that is
56:01.895 --> 56:03.575
a huge amount. Right.
56:04.009 --> 56:04.806
so high,
56:05.381 --> 56:06.361
especially for folks that are
56:06.361 --> 56:08.661
maybe on fixed incomes or
56:08.737 --> 56:10.117
dealing with multiple things at
56:10.117 --> 56:12.600
once. like utility bills are of
56:12.610 --> 56:14.040
course increasing generally,
56:14.040 --> 56:15.300
this is a broad generalization,
56:15.310 --> 56:17.440
but just year on year. And when
56:17.450 --> 56:19.650
you add in like additional costs
56:19.650 --> 56:21.030
because of something like data
56:21.030 --> 56:22.300
centers, right. I think that
56:22.300 --> 56:23.350
hits really hard right now.
56:23.890 --> 56:25.989
think, like home insurance,
56:25.989 --> 56:27.599
there are places in, in this
56:27.609 --> 56:30.243
country where home insurance is
56:30.243 --> 56:32.033
more and more expensive because
56:32.033 --> 56:33.503
of climate impacts, right. Like
56:33.493 --> 56:36.451
wildfires or sea level rise, or
56:36.216 --> 56:38.006
like those costs start to
56:38.006 --> 56:39.756
increase too. I don't know if
56:39.756 --> 56:41.626
you guys would agree, but I feel
56:41.626 --> 56:43.438
like, especially maybe in the
56:43.438 --> 56:46.839
last five ish years, things that
56:46.839 --> 56:48.919
previously maybe were steady and
56:48.919 --> 56:50.539
cost, even if they were high,
56:50.539 --> 56:52.507
are all of a sudden now like
56:52.507 --> 56:53.947
rising up on the like, well, th
56:53.947 --> 56:55.544
is really hitting my, my bottom
56:55.544 --> 56:56.824
line in my wallet. Right. It's
56:56.824 --> 56:58.244
like all these costs are
56:58.244 --> 56:59.384
increasing, everything's
56:59.384 --> 57:01.285
increasing. And I would say like
57:01.285 --> 57:03.025
circling back to climate change,whether
57:03.025 --> 57:05.325
it's energy or kind of
57:05.325 --> 57:07.625
adaptation side, you know, in
57:07.625 --> 57:08.855
terms of the insurance
57:08.855 --> 57:10.398
discussion, it's like starting
57:10.398 --> 57:11.860
to hit wallets in a way that
57:11.860 --> 57:13.160
maybe it wasn't like 10 years
57:13.160 --> 57:14.200
ago or 20 years ago.
57:14.189 --> 57:15.459
to give you an example, there
57:15.469 --> 57:17.039
was just an article, I think
57:17.049 --> 57:19.011
yesterday in, the local paper
57:19.011 --> 57:22.490
that Kroger, which is a, Grocery
57:22.240 --> 57:23.420
chain, but located,
57:23.420 --> 57:25.420
headquartered in Cincinnati,
57:25.938 --> 57:31.780
they have seen a 25% increase in
57:31.828 --> 57:35.288
people buying their name brand
57:35.288 --> 57:38.048
of like soup and things instead
57:38.048 --> 57:39.856
of getting the, you know, uh,
57:39.856 --> 57:42.074
Campbell's, to save money. And
57:42.074 --> 57:43.684
that's fairly dramatic, uh,
57:43.684 --> 57:44.914
change within just a month.
57:45.548 --> 57:47.690
Yeah. And like you said, they're
57:47.690 --> 57:50.208
also profit making business and
57:50.208 --> 57:51.638
they might see opportunity there.
57:51.779 --> 57:54.949
I've even seen a few, local and
57:55.696 --> 57:57.756
lawsuits that consumers are
57:57.756 --> 57:59.896
suing some of these grocery
57:59.896 --> 58:02.647
chains for price gouging Alex, I
58:02.647 --> 58:04.587
also thought of you with your
58:04.587 --> 58:06.247
time at the Biden Harris
58:06.247 --> 58:10.017
administration that last Trump
58:10.017 --> 58:12.397
removed the fuel economy
58:12.397 --> 58:14.017
standards that eliminate the
58:14.017 --> 58:16.157
electric vehicle mandate that
58:16.157 --> 58:17.997
Biden and Harris previously
58:17.997 --> 58:20.377
introduced. And within, I think
58:20.377 --> 58:22.357
it was like a week difference,
58:22.357 --> 58:24.097
the Trump administration also
58:24.097 --> 58:27.624
removed roughly 760,000
58:27.624 --> 58:29.624
enrollees from the Affordable
58:29.624 --> 58:33.119
Care Act. it's never linear
58:33.119 --> 58:34.819
progress, you know, it always
58:34.819 --> 58:36.389
goes up and down, ebb and flows.
58:37.252 --> 58:40.012
but when Alex and I were talking
58:40.012 --> 58:42.176
this um, came up with a really
58:42.176 --> 58:43.876
good quote on this topic of
58:43.876 --> 58:47.492
climate Let's not despair, let's
58:47.492 --> 58:50.874
repair, so on that note of
58:50.874 --> 58:53.654
repairing what we may be losing,
58:53.579 --> 58:55.938
for our audience who want to
58:55.938 --> 58:57.598
make a difference, but perhaps
58:57.598 --> 58:59.898
are overwhelmed by the scale of
58:59.898 --> 59:01.318
climate change. And as we
59:01.318 --> 59:03.158
mentioned, it's a lot of
59:03.158 --> 59:05.018
categories. Alex, where would
59:05.018 --> 59:06.808
you encourage them to begin?
59:07.430 --> 59:09.110
Yes, and I, and I still love
59:09.120 --> 59:10.680
this quote. I love a good rhyme
59:10.670 --> 59:12.560
that just bubbles up naturally
59:12.550 --> 59:13.950
and, you know, sticks, sticks
59:13.960 --> 59:15.723
with you. Um, I mean, it's just,
59:15.733 --> 59:17.163
it's so fair, right? Like we
59:17.163 --> 59:18.502
talked about the barrage of like
59:18.512 --> 59:19.812
negative information that's
59:19.802 --> 59:21.382
always coming at folks, the
59:21.392 --> 59:22.512
challenge of sifting through
59:22.512 --> 59:24.882
that information, staying locked
59:24.892 --> 59:27.517
in, you know, a, s who wants to
59:27.507 --> 59:29.138
work on, issues that you care
59:29.148 --> 59:30.288
about, but are also dealing with
59:30.278 --> 59:31.651
things in your own life. and
59:31.651 --> 59:32.921
climate change obviously is one
59:32.931 --> 59:34.706
where the conversation can, can
59:34.706 --> 59:36.546
quickly jump to catastrophe or
59:36.546 --> 59:38.236
feeling like hopelessness or
59:38.246 --> 59:39.747
it's not even worth like doing
59:39.757 --> 59:41.137
something because we've already
59:41.127 --> 59:42.405
lost. just,I feel like there's a
59:42.405 --> 59:43.535
few things that come to mind.
59:43.505 --> 59:45.295
One is always, you know, with,
59:45.055 --> 59:47.135
with climate change, I always
59:47.135 --> 59:48.835
remind myself, right? Like every
59:48.825 --> 59:50.699
single little bit matters. this
59:50.689 --> 59:52.079
is a whole of society problem.
59:52.179 --> 59:52.999
We were talking
59:52.921 --> 59:55.076
you're almost quoting Lockwood
59:55.076 --> 59:55.816
family saying.
59:56.519 --> 59:57.739
What's the Lockwood family
59:57.739 --> 59:57.889
saying?
59:58.243 --> 01:00:00.603
So when I taught the cumulative
01:00:00.603 --> 01:00:01.683
effects
01:00:01.556 --> 01:00:01.976
Uh-huh.
01:00:01.683 --> 01:00:03.663
doctrine of the Commerce clause
01:00:03.663 --> 01:00:04.843
in constitutional law.
01:00:05.386 --> 01:00:05.766
Okay.
01:00:05.761 --> 01:00:07.371
they always remembered it
01:00:07.371 --> 01:00:09.980
because I, I quoted the Lockwood
01:00:09.990 --> 01:00:11.900
family saying, which my father
01:00:11.910 --> 01:00:14.430
would say, every little bit
01:00:14.420 --> 01:00:16.650
counts, said the flea as he
01:00:16.650 --> 01:00:17.490
pissed in the ocean.
01:00:18.167 --> 01:00:20.107
Many of his former fellows and
01:00:20.107 --> 01:00:22.827
students mention that saying Out
01:00:22.827 --> 01:00:24.107
of all the things they remember
01:00:24.107 --> 01:00:25.707
learning from him, that saying
01:00:25.707 --> 01:00:26.477
has stuck.
01:00:26.883 --> 01:00:29.133
Stopped on the streets in, uh,
01:00:29.133 --> 01:00:31.033
Cincinnati former students
01:00:31.033 --> 01:00:32.233
coming up and that's the one
01:00:32.233 --> 01:00:33.103
thing they remember.
01:00:34.076 --> 01:00:37.301
I will look. Amongst the public
01:00:37.291 --> 01:00:39.341
discourse at the conference in
01:00:39.331 --> 01:00:41.681
Cincinnati next month. But, you
01:00:41.671 --> 01:00:44.151
know, the climate analogy is not,
01:00:44.251 --> 01:00:45.421
funnily enough, it's not so
01:00:45.431 --> 01:00:46.789
different, right? month. was a
01:00:46.779 --> 01:00:48.509
kid and I was, you know, forcing
01:00:48.499 --> 01:00:50.469
my family to recycle and
01:00:50.459 --> 01:00:51.589
dragging those recycling bins
01:00:51.579 --> 01:00:53.058
out to the street, that do
01:00:53.058 --> 01:00:55.078
anything to actually, like, stop
01:00:55.068 --> 01:00:56.718
global warming? Of course not,
01:00:56.718 --> 01:00:58.218
right? But that is, like, one
01:00:58.218 --> 01:01:00.628
action in, the bucket, you know,
01:01:00.628 --> 01:01:02.138
it is one bucket of action in,
01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:03.679
the ocean of action, right, that
01:01:03.669 --> 01:01:05.629
people need to be taking as part
01:01:05.629 --> 01:01:07.409
of a broader societal shift.
01:01:07.409 --> 01:01:08.149
Because this is an
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:09.864
intergenerational issue, it's,
01:01:09.864 --> 01:01:11.654
it is an issue that affects
01:01:11.644 --> 01:01:13.432
everybody. And, it's always
01:01:13.432 --> 01:01:15.632
worth remembering that it's not
01:01:15.622 --> 01:01:17.863
like, oh, if we haven't stopped
01:01:17.863 --> 01:01:19.033
global warming to a certain
01:01:19.033 --> 01:01:20.293
degree, then we've totally
01:01:20.283 --> 01:01:21.453
failed and there's no action
01:01:21.453 --> 01:01:22.843
worth taking, right? Like, every
01:01:22.853 --> 01:01:24.871
tenth of a degree matters. It,
01:01:24.871 --> 01:01:27.783
every life saved or, like, life
01:01:27.773 --> 01:01:29.183
improved matters at the end of
01:01:29.183 --> 01:01:31.563
the day. And I think holding on
01:01:31.563 --> 01:01:33.383
to that is part of being a part
01:01:33.383 --> 01:01:35.466
of long-term advocacy and, know,
01:01:35.456 --> 01:01:36.556
grappl with these issues that
01:01:36.566 --> 01:01:37.886
you might never see a resolution
01:01:37.876 --> 01:01:39.796
on, even the course of your own
01:01:39.796 --> 01:01:41.266
career or life. But, you know, I
01:01:41.276 --> 01:01:41.376
think, like, you know, I think
01:01:41.376 --> 01:01:42.206
you're going to be doing
01:01:42.206 --> 01:01:44.293
something You know, we'll look
01:01:44.293 --> 01:01:46.453
towards icons who have done
01:01:46.453 --> 01:01:47.771
generational work and know,
01:01:47.771 --> 01:01:48.991
watch what they've said and read
01:01:48.991 --> 01:01:50.591
their words and be inspired by
01:01:50.591 --> 01:01:53.346
that. Um, I will listen to, cool
01:01:53.346 --> 01:01:54.506
podcasts such as this one that
01:01:54.506 --> 01:01:55.815
talk about the solutions that
01:01:55.815 --> 01:01:57.415
are out there and what people
01:01:57.415 --> 01:01:58.635
are doing to meaningfully
01:01:58.635 --> 01:02:00.942
advance action. Um, I often look
01:02:00.942 --> 01:02:02.662
really locally too, right, and
01:02:02.662 --> 01:02:03.582
think, well, what are things I
01:02:03.582 --> 01:02:05.522
can change in my day-to-day life
01:02:05.522 --> 01:02:07.122
that make me feel like I'm
01:02:07.122 --> 01:02:08.962
taking a tangible action, even
01:02:08.962 --> 01:02:10.062
if I don't in this moment in
01:02:10.062 --> 01:02:10.892
time have the capacity to change.
01:02:11.272 --> 01:02:12.539
to, like start a new
01:02:12.539 --> 01:02:13.419
organization or try to
01:02:13.419 --> 01:02:15.259
single-handedly, you know, stop
01:02:15.259 --> 01:02:17.019
a global problem, right, which I
01:02:17.019 --> 01:02:18.759
think nobody can actually can do,
01:02:18.759 --> 01:02:20.852
of course. And so,to the folks
01:02:20.852 --> 01:02:22.392
that are wondering where to
01:02:22.392 --> 01:02:23.792
begin to your question, Meredith,
01:02:23.792 --> 01:02:25.689
it's like, you can do that makes
01:02:25.689 --> 01:02:26.769
you feel like you're having an
01:02:26.769 --> 01:02:27.889
impact and also brings you a
01:02:27.889 --> 01:02:29.534
little bit of joy, right? Like,
01:02:29.534 --> 01:02:31.454
like organizing a cleanup day on
01:02:31.454 --> 01:02:32.874
a local river. And even if
01:02:32.874 --> 01:02:34.054
you're the only one that shows
01:02:34.054 --> 01:02:35.274
up, then you can take that time
01:02:35.274 --> 01:02:36.534
to turn off your phone. And as
01:02:36.534 --> 01:02:38.196
we talked about earlier, know,
01:02:38.196 --> 01:02:39.476
spend some time in nature, like
01:02:39.476 --> 01:02:41.716
get involved in your local
01:02:41.716 --> 01:02:43.438
communities, um, and even local
01:02:43.438 --> 01:02:45.398
like policy or politics, and
01:02:45.398 --> 01:02:47.658
then just keep touching in with
01:02:47.658 --> 01:02:48.707
the, the community of folks that
01:02:48.707 --> 01:02:50.507
are working on this. It's, it's
01:02:50.507 --> 01:02:51.987
easier to feel like your kind of
01:02:52.692 --> 01:02:54.292
matters when you're also seeing
01:02:54.292 --> 01:02:55.572
everything else that's happening
01:02:55.572 --> 01:02:56.462
out there in the world. Exactly.
01:02:56.625 --> 01:02:59.075
Thank you, Alex. This has been
01:03:00.112 --> 01:03:02.957
Very appreciate sagacity
01:03:03.601 --> 01:03:06.081
insights. And we forward to
01:03:06.081 --> 01:03:07.801
seeing you in just a couple of
01:03:07.801 --> 01:03:08.096
weeks
01:03:08.429 --> 01:03:09.849
Thank you so much for having me.
01:03:09.591 --> 01:03:10.051
in
01:03:09.849 --> 01:03:10.129
I
01:03:10.051 --> 01:03:10.331
Cincinnati.
01:03:10.129 --> 01:03:11.569
feel like we touched only the
01:03:11.569 --> 01:03:13.078
surface a few things, and this
01:03:13.078 --> 01:03:14.818
could have been a week-long
01:03:14.818 --> 01:03:16.054
conversation. So thank you.
01:03:16.433 --> 01:03:19.096
Oh, absolutely. can't wait to
01:03:19.096 --> 01:03:20.696
see you in my hometown of Cincy
01:03:20.641 --> 01:03:21.171
very soon.
01:03:21.691 --> 01:03:23.071
I can't wait. It'll be my first
01:03:23.071 --> 01:03:24.351
time there. So I'm looking
01:03:24.351 --> 01:03:25.482
forward seeing the beauty of it.
01:03:25.653 --> 01:03:26.703
Terrific.
01:03:29.828 --> 01:03:31.738
One thing I hope you, our
01:03:31.738 --> 01:03:33.138
listeners, can take away from
01:03:33.138 --> 01:03:34.818
today's conversation is that
01:03:34.818 --> 01:03:36.498
there are many meaningful ways
01:03:36.498 --> 01:03:37.958
to contribute to climate
01:03:37.958 --> 01:03:39.555
solutions, whether through your
01:03:39.555 --> 01:03:41.495
own communities or by supporting
01:03:41.495 --> 01:03:43.475
the people and organizations
01:03:43.475 --> 01:03:44.145
doing this work.
01:03:44.911 --> 01:03:46.591
For those interested in learning
01:03:46.591 --> 01:03:49.131
more, we've included the
01:03:49.131 --> 01:03:51.671
research articles and videos and
01:03:51.671 --> 01:03:53.191
other resources discussed
01:03:53.191 --> 01:03:55.091
throughout this episode in our
01:03:55.091 --> 01:03:55.651
show notes.
01:03:56.707 --> 01:03:58.927
as always, if you enjoy Human
01:03:58.927 --> 01:04:00.667
Rights Conversations Across
01:04:00.667 --> 01:04:02.547
Generations podcast, please
01:04:02.547 --> 01:04:03.987
share with your family, friends,
01:04:03.987 --> 01:04:06.007
and extended community. We also
01:04:06.007 --> 01:04:07.667
welcome your suggestions for
01:04:07.667 --> 01:04:09.947
future guests and topics. Thank
01:04:09.947 --> 01:04:10.797
you for tuning in.
00:03.941 --> 00:06.721
Hi, welcome to our podcast, Huma
00:06.721 --> 00:08.281
Rights,Conversations Across
00:08.281 --> 00:09.881
Generations. I'm Meredith
00:09.881 --> 00:11.421
Lockwood, founder of Lockwood
00:11.421 --> 00:12.741
Creative, a purpose-driven
00:12.741 --> 00:14.721
creative agency. And I'm here
00:14.721 --> 00:15.321
with my dad.
00:16.031 --> 00:18.641
And I'm Professor Bert Lockwood,
00:18.641 --> 00:21.701
the director of the Urban Morgan
00:21.701 --> 00:23.641
Institute for Human Rights at
00:23.641 --> 00:25.461
the University of Cincinnati
00:25.461 --> 00:26.241
College of Law.
00:26.311 --> 00:27.761
Together, we are your
00:27.761 --> 00:29.141
father-daughter co-hosts.
00:29.251 --> 00:31.161
For over 50 years, I've had a
00:31.161 --> 00:32.801
front-row seat to the evolution
00:32.801 --> 00:34.291
of international human rights.
00:34.611 --> 00:36.181
And now, we're sharing that
00:36.181 --> 00:37.901
expertise with you by connecting
00:37.901 --> 00:39.181
to the powerful stories and
00:39.151 --> 00:41.501
insights of human rights voices
00:41.501 --> 00:42.421
from around the world.
00:42.681 --> 00:44.441
We bridge the past and the
00:44.441 --> 00:46.421
present, making complex human
00:46.421 --> 00:48.561
rights issues more approachable
00:48.561 --> 00:49.471
and understandable.
00:50.042 --> 00:52.252
So, pull up a chair and join our
00:52.252 --> 00:54.112
table as we speak with Nobel
00:54.112 --> 00:55.802
Peace Prize recipients,
00:55.802 --> 00:57.272
political leaders and the
00:57.272 --> 00:58.532
world's leading human rights
00:58.532 --> 00:59.602
scholars and activists.
01:03.433 --> 01:05.573
From Rising Seas, threatening
01:05.573 --> 01:07.493
entire island nations, to the
01:07.493 --> 01:08.973
extraordinary advances in
01:08.973 --> 01:10.273
technology reshaping our world,
01:10.903 --> 01:12.693
climate change is raising some
01:12.693 --> 01:14.453
of the most urgent questions of
01:14.453 --> 01:16.540
our time. And while the
01:16.540 --> 01:18.420
challenges are enormous, so is
01:18.420 --> 01:19.960
the work happening around the
01:19.960 --> 01:22.587
world to address them. Today, we
01:22.587 --> 01:24.447
welcome my friend, Aleš Mishko,
01:24.447 --> 01:26.407
to the show, who has dedicated
01:26.407 --> 01:28.667
her career to working on climate
01:28.667 --> 01:28.977
solutions.
01:30.236 --> 01:32.476
is a fellow and lecturer at the
01:32.476 --> 01:34.776
Abrams Environmental Law Clinic
01:34.776 --> 01:36.816
at the University of Chicago Law
01:36.816 --> 01:39.257
School. Previously, she served
01:39.257 --> 01:42.157
as a senior advisor to Secretary
01:42.157 --> 01:44.657
John Kerry in the Biden
01:44.657 --> 01:46.605
administration, helping
01:46.605 --> 01:48.765
negotiate international climate
01:48.765 --> 01:50.985
agreements and advance policies
01:50.985 --> 01:53.836
on climate resilience. A
01:53.836 --> 01:56.456
graduate of MIT and Yale Law
01:56.456 --> 01:59.437
School. Aleš has worked across
01:59.437 --> 02:01.137
engineering, environmental
02:01.137 --> 02:03.857
policy, international diplomacy,
02:03.857 --> 02:04.887
and human rights law.
02:05.367 --> 02:06.947
And we're delighted to have Alex
02:06.947 --> 02:07.707
joining us today.
02:12.417 --> 02:14.617
Alex, welcome to the show. My
02:14.617 --> 02:16.097
dad and I are so honored to have
02:16.097 --> 02:16.687
you here.
02:16.987 --> 02:18.237
Thank you. I'm honored to be
02:18.237 --> 02:19.337
here. Thanks for inviting me
02:19.337 --> 02:19.527
today.
02:20.322 --> 02:22.065
Alex, it's wonderful for you to
02:22.065 --> 02:23.674
join us and looking forward to
02:23.879 --> 02:25.628
seeing you in a couple weeks at
02:25.628 --> 02:27.455
our November Human Rights
02:27.455 --> 02:28.535
Conference in Cincinnati.
02:28.574 --> 02:30.284
Yeah, me as well. Meredith, I've
02:30.284 --> 02:31.544
met in person, but I'm excited
02:31.544 --> 02:32.554
to meet you in person, Bert.
02:33.422 --> 02:34.895
For our listeners,going to be,
02:34.895 --> 02:36.755
Alex, your first time in
02:36.755 --> 02:38.115
Cincinnati, Ohio, where my dad
02:38.115 --> 02:40.714
is teaching for any newcomers at
02:40.714 --> 02:41.954
the University of Cincinnati
02:41.954 --> 02:44.055
College of Law. Dad, along with
02:44.055 --> 02:46.215
his Urban Morgan Institute of
02:46.215 --> 02:48.435
Human Rights colleagues, are
02:48.435 --> 02:49.835
hosting an international
02:49.835 --> 02:52.215
conference dedicated to what's
02:52.215 --> 02:53.115
happening in human rights around
02:53.115 --> 02:55.615
the world in 2026 and looking
02:55.615 --> 02:58.124
ahead.And one of our dear
02:58.124 --> 02:59.644
shared family friends will be
02:59.644 --> 03:00.764
kicking off that conference.
03:00.764 --> 03:02.487
Alex, Professor Harold Coe,
03:03.038 --> 03:04.778
along with Paul Hoffman, wil be
03:04.778 --> 03:06.348
leading us. you'll get to see
03:06.348 --> 03:07.701
Harold in Cincinnati as well.
03:08.135 --> 03:10.415
Alex, I have my sweatshirt from
03:10.415 --> 03:11.984
our Chicago trip together at the
03:12.265 --> 03:14.595
Obama Presidential Center. And I
03:14.595 --> 03:16.335
think our message today for
03:16.335 --> 03:18.017
climate, we're going to really
03:18.017 --> 03:20.707
talk about climate from hope and
03:20.707 --> 03:22.687
optimism. There is a lot of doom
03:22.687 --> 03:23.787
scrolling these days. There's a
03:23.787 --> 03:25.857
lot of data dump. Sometimes
03:25.857 --> 03:27.697
things feel overly complicated
03:27.697 --> 03:29.217
for everyday persons trying to
03:29.217 --> 03:32.497
stay on top of migration,
03:32.497 --> 03:34.157
technology advances, water
03:34.157 --> 03:36.626
shortages, wildfires. But Alex
03:36.626 --> 03:38.226
and I got to prepare today's
03:38.226 --> 03:39.666
agenda and research points
03:39.666 --> 03:41.926
together, and I'm really excited
03:41.926 --> 03:43.326
on where we have decided to
03:43.326 --> 03:45.666
focus this discussion.But it's
03:45.666 --> 03:47.146
good to understand that we could
03:47.146 --> 03:49.666
have talked for hours about how
03:49.666 --> 03:51.966
expansive climate change is. So
03:51.966 --> 03:53.646
we're really going to dial in on
03:53.646 --> 03:56.106
certain key topics. Alex, you
03:56.106 --> 03:57.388
just got back from New York City.
03:57.676 --> 03:59.496
A my dad and I were curious, how
03:59.496 --> 04:00.796
did Climate Week go? What were
04:00.796 --> 04:01.856
some key takeaways?
04:02.124 --> 04:04.114
Yeah, super happy to start there.
04:04.114 --> 04:05.214
And thank you again for having
04:05.214 --> 04:06.614
me on today to have this
04:06.614 --> 04:08.098
discussion with you. Meredith,
04:08.098 --> 04:09.498
just to start, I think you hit
04:09.498 --> 04:10.978
the nail on the head already,
04:10.978 --> 04:13.178
which is that climate change is
04:13.178 --> 04:14.878
an issue that basically touches
04:14.878 --> 04:16.858
on everything in our lived
04:16.858 --> 04:18.698
society and everybody around the
04:18.698 --> 04:20.258
world. I think that
04:20.258 --> 04:22.385
expansiveness is reflected in
04:22.588 --> 04:24.088
convenings like New York Climate
04:24.088 --> 04:25.677
Week. You know, there are, quote,
04:25.677 --> 04:28.757
clim weeks all around the just
04:28.757 --> 04:29.937
came back from the one in New
04:29.937 --> 04:31.377
York that was at the end of
04:31.377 --> 04:33.417
September that also coincides
04:33.417 --> 04:35.117
with the UN General Assembly
04:35.117 --> 04:36.697
meeting. And so you can imagine
04:36.697 --> 04:38.657
there is a real influx of people
04:38.657 --> 04:40.577
into the city to have a lot of
04:40.577 --> 04:41.937
conversations on a lot of topics.
04:42.438 --> 04:45.048
It was my fourth consecutive
04:45.048 --> 04:46.518
climate week. I was tracking
04:46.518 --> 04:48.298
that. I was looking back on the
04:48.298 --> 04:50.038
last few years and kind of just
04:50.038 --> 04:51.618
thinking about what stood out to
04:51.618 --> 04:54.242
me this climate Like, I came
04:54.242 --> 04:56.195
back feeling very energized,
04:56.195 --> 04:57.795
which I will say from giant
04:57.795 --> 04:59.495
conferences, I know, even for
04:59.495 --> 05:01.095
myself is not always the case.
05:01.185 --> 05:02.915
And I think one of the reasons I
05:02.915 --> 05:04.875
felt really energized is that I
05:04.875 --> 05:07.225
felt that every conversation I
05:07.225 --> 05:09.375
was a part of, which, to be fair,
05:09.375 --> 05:11.935
was at most maybe like 10% of
05:11.935 --> 05:13.775
the actual happenings in New
05:13.775 --> 05:15.790
York You know, just to add a
05:15.790 --> 05:16.870
disclaimer, I'm sure many people
05:16.870 --> 05:18.530
had many other experiences
05:18.530 --> 05:19.890
during that week. But I felt
05:19.890 --> 05:21.450
like every conversation I was
05:21.870 --> 05:24.190
there was this focus on, okay,
05:24.190 --> 05:25.610
what are forward-looking
05:25.610 --> 05:27.190
solutions? We recognize there
05:27.190 --> 05:28.939
are a multitude of problems in
05:28.939 --> 05:30.659
front of us. And what are we
05:30.659 --> 05:32.439
tangibly doing about it? And
05:32.439 --> 05:34.459
kind of walking away with those,
05:34.459 --> 05:35.879
like, what are our actual next
05:35.879 --> 05:37.059
steps that we're going to take
05:37.059 --> 05:38.848
from this meeting? The other
05:38.848 --> 05:40.321
thing I felt, which maybe of
05:40.321 --> 05:42.581
coincides with that, though, is
05:42.581 --> 05:44.661
kind of a feeling like the
05:44.661 --> 05:46.001
tracks that I was on, right? And
05:46.001 --> 05:47.501
a lot of my conversations were
05:47.501 --> 05:50.141
focused on resilience or
05:50.141 --> 05:51.921
environmental advocacy or
05:51.921 --> 05:53.661
artificial intelligence. I felt
05:53.661 --> 05:55.161
like there were people who I
05:55.161 --> 05:56.361
know in the climate community
05:56.361 --> 05:58.141
who work on other topics who I
05:58.141 --> 05:59.601
didn't see during the entire
05:59.601 --> 06:01.634
week. so perhaps because there
06:01.634 --> 06:03.214
was so much happening, becau
06:03.214 --> 06:05.004
people were so of focused on
06:05.004 --> 06:06.404
particular solutions, there was
06:06.404 --> 06:08.744
less intersection of issues. But
06:08.744 --> 06:10.264
I was surprised by the people
06:10.264 --> 06:11.424
that I was thinking of, where I
06:11.424 --> 06:13.342
was like, wow, I wish I had seen
06:13.342 --> 06:14.887
this person or that person, or
06:15.253 --> 06:16.473
I'll need to reach out to have a
06:16.473 --> 06:18.293
follow-up conversation. And so
06:18.293 --> 06:19.617
those two of reflections were my
06:19.617 --> 06:20.787
main ones this time around.
06:20.924 --> 06:22.504
know, Alex, I've been to
06:22.504 --> 06:24.024
multiple climate weeks in New
06:24.024 --> 06:25.804
York as well and have had the
06:25.804 --> 06:27.364
honor of doing two trainings
06:27.364 --> 06:29.784
with Al Gore's organization, the
06:29.784 --> 06:31.836
Climate Reality Project. the
06:31.836 --> 06:34.895
last one I did was in 2024. it
06:34.895 --> 06:35.755
was really interesting because
06:35.755 --> 06:37.495
we didn't have the big
06:37.495 --> 06:39.675
discussions around advancing
06:39.675 --> 06:40.775
technology, artificial
06:40.775 --> 06:42.275
intelligence. It was actually
06:42.111 --> 06:44.471
really reactive to, the big
06:44.471 --> 06:44.591
federal elections. And I think
06:44.591 --> 06:44.651
that's also very important for
06:44.651 --> 06:44.711
me to go back to the
06:44.711 --> 06:45.531
presidential election we had
06:45.531 --> 06:47.565
with the presidency. I kind of
06:47.565 --> 06:49.105
felt like there were nerves in
06:49.105 --> 06:50.305
different panels and different
06:50.305 --> 06:52.097
discussions. I made it a point
06:52.097 --> 06:53.137
that I really wanted to hear
06:53.137 --> 06:55.894
from who were looking at wanting
06:55.894 --> 06:59.274
to be of service to protect our
06:59.274 --> 07:01.841
planet, running. Ancestral lands,
07:01.841 --> 07:04.311
discussed the water shortages,
07:04.033 --> 07:06.733
they were kind of curious where
07:06.733 --> 07:08.846
their education, getting to
07:08.846 --> 07:10.906
learn about sustainability,
07:10.906 --> 07:12.826
diffe science and engineering
07:12.826 --> 07:15.565
roles could take them. I'm so
07:15.565 --> 07:16.825
curious if I got to sit down
07:16.825 --> 07:19.177
with them two years how they
07:19.177 --> 07:22.084
would be doing. it was
07:22.084 --> 07:23.124
incredibly reflective for me to
07:23.124 --> 07:24.664
listen to your take on Climate
07:24.927 --> 07:27.107
Week and just realize, like, how
07:27.107 --> 07:28.967
much has changed in just two
07:28.967 --> 07:29.367
years?
07:29.854 --> 07:32.811
Yes. I think so much has changed
07:32.811 --> 07:36.037
in two years. here in the U. S.,
07:36.037 --> 07:38.017
also around the I think at the
07:38.017 --> 07:39.665
same time, you know, that are
07:39.665 --> 07:41.665
political or policy changes.
07:41.665 --> 07:44.236
There's also been lot of climate
07:44.236 --> 07:45.676
impacts that have been happening
07:45.676 --> 07:46.876
and that are a part of our
07:47.104 --> 07:49.084
day-to-day, maybe not news
07:49.084 --> 07:50.584
cycles, but, you know, I think
07:50.584 --> 07:52.244
people are experiencing climate
07:52.244 --> 07:53.644
change, perhaps, in ways that
07:53.644 --> 07:55.544
even a few years before wasn't
07:55.544 --> 07:58.424
as common. And so at least in my
07:58.424 --> 07:59.895
conversations, I felt there was
07:59.895 --> 08:02.095
this real sense of, okay, what
08:02.095 --> 08:04.255
are we doing about, like extreme
08:04.255 --> 08:05.775
heat in the Midwest? Or what are
08:05.775 --> 08:08.135
we doing about insurance and sea
08:08.135 --> 08:09.735
level rise? Or what are we doing
08:09.735 --> 08:11.354
about this problem that is
08:11.354 --> 08:13.194
surfacing and is now starting to
08:13.194 --> 08:14.634
become a part of people's lives?
08:14.897 --> 08:18.421
Alex. I'm how did you come to
08:18.421 --> 08:19.348
this field?
08:19.931 --> 08:22.191
confess, I tried to find my
08:22.191 --> 08:23.871
college application essay in
08:23.871 --> 08:25.811
advance of this podcast because
08:25.811 --> 08:29.682
I wrote about this in that. And
08:29.682 --> 08:31.502
you know what? For the best, I
08:31.502 --> 08:32.982
could not. I'm very happy I
08:32.982 --> 08:34.422
could not. I don't think I ever
08:34.422 --> 08:37.184
want to read that again. But, I
08:37.184 --> 08:39.607
was born and outside of Hanford,
08:39.607 --> 08:40.707
Washington, so in a town called
08:40.707 --> 08:41.827
the Tri-Cities,
08:43.948 --> 08:46.608
is the site of a Manhattan
08:46.608 --> 08:49.908
Project era plutonium production
08:49.908 --> 08:51.670
facility, And pretty much in the
08:51.670 --> 08:54.748
U. S., I understand, one of the
08:54.748 --> 08:56.968
most toxic radioactive places in
08:56.968 --> 08:59.369
this country because of the
08:59.369 --> 09:01.419
history know, various like
09:01.419 --> 09:03.917
nuclear fuels out there. And
09:03.917 --> 09:06.797
when I was in high school, I
09:06.797 --> 09:09.316
remember I started to just
09:09.316 --> 09:11.316
become aware of the area that I
09:11.316 --> 09:13.116
lived in. You know, like I
09:13.116 --> 09:15.136
always loved being outdoors and
09:15.136 --> 09:16.576
outside. And I started to just
09:16.576 --> 09:18.656
become aware of development and
09:18.656 --> 09:19.796
suburban sprawl that was
09:19.796 --> 09:21.716
happening in my community. I
09:22.007 --> 09:23.727
learning more about the history
09:23.727 --> 09:25.288
of, the place that I grew up in.
09:26.275 --> 09:29.208
I... Got really involved in kind
09:29.208 --> 09:31.148
of recycling and conservation,
09:31.148 --> 09:33.061
and that was first foray into
09:33.061 --> 09:34.361
this. And, you know, it's hard
09:34.361 --> 09:35.884
to describe, except have, I have
09:35.884 --> 09:38.925
these memories of being maybe 14,
09:38.925 --> 09:41.620
15, and realizing that, it was
09:41.620 --> 09:44.220
not common for many people in my
09:44.220 --> 09:45.760
hometown to recycle or to think
09:45.760 --> 09:47.340
about water conservation, even
09:47.340 --> 09:49.060
though we were in a semi-arid
09:49.060 --> 09:50.680
area. And I felt this, like,
09:50.680 --> 09:52.620
very deep-rooted sense of
09:52.620 --> 09:53.960
justice in a way that I feel
09:53.960 --> 09:55.760
like young people can only have
09:55.760 --> 09:57.280
sometimes of, like, oh,this is
09:57.280 --> 09:58.500
something that I must do
09:58.500 --> 10:00.140
something about, right? And so
10:00.140 --> 10:02.060
I'm sure I was quite an
10:02.060 --> 10:03.320
annoyance to my family, but I
10:03.320 --> 10:05.160
made us all get into recycling.
10:05.160 --> 10:06.560
And then I got involved in a
10:06.560 --> 10:08.540
local hospital where I helped
10:08.540 --> 10:10.603
volunteer to pick up recycling.
10:10.603 --> 10:12.183
Like, I would go on Saturdays
10:12.183 --> 10:14.343
and just gather recycling at a
10:14.343 --> 10:16.546
hospital myself and then, know,
10:16.546 --> 10:17.846
properly dispose of it. And it
10:17.846 --> 10:19.446
was, like, a program that I did
10:19.446 --> 10:21.456
for a while. And that kind of
10:21.456 --> 10:22.576
kicked off a passion that has
10:22.576 --> 10:24.196
never really left me. And so I
10:24.196 --> 10:26.127
feel like I learned about this
10:26.127 --> 10:27.727
whole field of environmentalism
10:27.727 --> 10:29.747
and advocacy and climate change.
10:29.747 --> 10:31.067
And the more I got into it, the
10:31.067 --> 10:32.327
more I knew that this is what I
10:32.327 --> 10:34.623
wanted to spend my, know, life's
10:34.623 --> 10:37.026
work, so to speak, around. I
10:37.026 --> 10:38.406
started on the engineering side.
10:38.406 --> 10:40.336
I went to MIT. And, I'm sure you
10:40.336 --> 10:42.056
can imagine that there, if
10:42.056 --> 10:43.336
you're interested in science and
10:43.336 --> 10:45.036
math, it's just like a world of
10:45.036 --> 10:46.176
possibilities that are open to
10:46.176 --> 10:48.416
you. And so I really dabbled in
10:48.229 --> 10:50.169
of clean energy engineering,
10:50.169 --> 10:51.389
seeing if there was a path there
10:51.389 --> 10:53.049
for me and I might be a climate
10:53.049 --> 10:54.729
scientist or something, you know,
10:54.729 --> 10:56.729
or work at a solar company,
10:57.113 --> 10:59.293
putting solar on roofs. And I
10:59.293 --> 11:00.693
found that I didn't really like
11:01.499 --> 11:02.859
practical, like, day-to-day side
11:02.859 --> 11:05.480
of working in a lab or, being an
11:05.480 --> 11:06.640
engineer, even though I loved
11:06.640 --> 11:08.540
studying it. And so then I got
11:08.540 --> 11:11.293
involved in of negotiations and
11:11.293 --> 11:12.633
business. And I had a mentor
11:12.633 --> 11:13.747
that was the first person to
11:13.747 --> 11:15.627
tell me that there is this whole
11:15.627 --> 11:17.287
world of, like, international
11:17.287 --> 11:19.827
work and UN-related work and,
11:19.827 --> 11:21.087
like, a whole community of
11:21.087 --> 11:22.827
practice around that. And he
11:22.827 --> 11:23.787
really inspired me to think
11:23.787 --> 11:25.807
about law school. And after
11:25.807 --> 11:27.327
working for a couple years doing
11:27.327 --> 11:28.947
kind of climate risk modeling, I
11:28.947 --> 11:30.797
ended up going to law school.
11:31.177 --> 11:32.604
And it was there that like, I
11:32.604 --> 11:34.604
found my niche. I was like, yes,
11:34.604 --> 11:37.104
this is the intersection in this
11:37.104 --> 11:38.624
broad world of climate change
11:38.624 --> 11:40.644
advocacy that I love. And, you
11:40.644 --> 11:41.924
know, whether it's been in and
11:41.924 --> 11:44.304
outside of government or
11:44.304 --> 11:46.264
institutions or from the more
11:46.264 --> 11:48.844
legal or policy lens, this world
11:48.844 --> 11:50.944
has been the one that I really,really
11:50.944 --> 11:52.204
find a lot of personal passion
11:52.204 --> 11:53.704
in and kind of thinking about
11:53.704 --> 11:54.644
solutions to this challenge.
11:54.999 --> 11:56.960
You mentioned there was a
11:56.960 --> 12:00.217
nuclear plant outside hometown.Can
12:00.217 --> 12:02.398
you educate me? sort of
12:02.398 --> 12:04.396
confused. I think read at
12:04.396 --> 12:07.094
different places that if you can
12:07.372 --> 12:11.219
control for not getting leakage
12:11.219 --> 12:14.579
and stuff from nuclear plants,
12:14.579 --> 12:15.859
that that would be the most
12:15.859 --> 12:18.698
efficient way of producing
12:18.698 --> 12:20.078
energy, that it would be the
12:20.078 --> 12:23.398
most climate friendly. Is that
12:23.398 --> 12:24.216
accurate not?
12:24.641 --> 12:26.861
I fear I am not an actual expert
12:26.861 --> 12:28.481
on nuclear energy. I did take
12:28.481 --> 12:30.561
one nuclear or I attempted to
12:30.561 --> 12:31.781
take one nuclear engineering
12:31.781 --> 12:33.201
class when I was in college. And
12:33.201 --> 12:34.881
then two weeks in, I was like,
12:34.881 --> 12:36.441
oh, definitely. I'm not smart
12:36.441 --> 12:36.971
enough for this.
12:37.350 --> 12:37.666
I would
12:38.819 --> 12:41.475
T did not stick. so the place
12:41.475 --> 12:42.855
that I grew up in is, I would
12:42.855 --> 12:44.315
say, a special case. It was a
12:44.315 --> 12:46.375
Superfund site. Right. Like, I
12:46.375 --> 12:47.895
think there is a long history
12:47.895 --> 12:49.416
there of of environmental
12:49.416 --> 12:49.426
cleanup.
12:49.931 --> 12:50.251
OK.
12:50.441 --> 12:52.124
don't know all the details why
12:52.124 --> 12:54.124
that is. But certainly, I don't
12:54.124 --> 12:56.624
think every nuclear site is that
12:56.624 --> 12:57.784
way. And I would also maybe
12:57.784 --> 12:58.734
distinguish between, like,
12:58.734 --> 13:01.272
nuclear power plants. And, the
13:01.272 --> 13:02.592
area that I grew up in, I
13:02.592 --> 13:03.572
believe there was, like,
13:03.572 --> 13:05.472
plutonium production that was
13:05.472 --> 13:06.941
part of, the Manhattan Project.
13:07.601 --> 13:08.411
And I think there were different
13:08.411 --> 13:10.235
things happening here. You know,
13:10.235 --> 13:12.075
in general, I would say nuclear
13:12.075 --> 13:14.206
energy, can be a complicated
13:14.206 --> 13:15.528
topic because a lot of people
13:15.528 --> 13:16.968
have different perspectives. And
13:16.968 --> 13:18.728
I think after Three Mile Island,
13:18.728 --> 13:20.948
there was a lot of concerns over,
13:20.867 --> 13:22.447
like, safety and, you know, what
13:22.447 --> 13:23.907
are, like, the risks of this
13:23.907 --> 13:26.284
energy? I tend to think about it
13:26.284 --> 13:28.751
always from a, which maybe isn't
13:28.751 --> 13:29.811
super optimistic of me, but,
13:29.811 --> 13:31.651
like, a risk-risk kind of
13:31.651 --> 13:32.891
analysis on every lens.
13:34.210 --> 13:35.990
certainly, there are risks with,
13:35.990 --> 13:37.770
that could come with nuclear
13:37.770 --> 13:39.130
energy. I also think there's a
13:39.130 --> 13:42.110
lot of risks of climate change
13:42.110 --> 13:44.010
and increased fossil fuel
13:44.010 --> 13:45.750
production. And so being able to
13:45.750 --> 13:46.870
think about, like, what is the
13:46.870 --> 13:49.030
energy mix of the future? I'm
13:49.030 --> 13:50.110
certainly not an expert on that,
13:50.110 --> 13:51.237
but I think, know, these are
13:51.727 --> 13:52.607
complicated questions that
13:52.607 --> 13:53.607
people are trying to figure out.
13:53.649 --> 13:55.601
Absolutely. that I'll just know,
13:55.601 --> 13:58.152
pinpoint that Erin Brockovich
13:58.152 --> 13:59.572
really brought a lot of these
13:59.572 --> 14:01.892
topics to mainstream.Hollywood
14:01.892 --> 14:03.788
helped with her film. she's been
14:03.788 --> 14:05.308
outspoken about nuclear
14:05.308 --> 14:07.628
facilities, rad concerns, but
14:07.628 --> 14:11.968
her famous case was against PG&E
14:11.968 --> 14:13.848
at the Hinkley groundwater
14:13.848 --> 14:14.975
contamination. but it's been
14:14.975 --> 14:17.175
interesting to see her now take
14:17.175 --> 14:19.795
up activism with her platform on
14:19.795 --> 14:21.517
AI. We data centers for electric
14:22.112 --> 14:24.212
grid water shortages, which we
14:24.212 --> 14:27.412
will get in later on that topic.
14:27.466 --> 14:28.646
Alex, I was curious. I was
14:28.646 --> 14:30.611
looking on the 'cause we, you
14:30.611 --> 14:32.234
grew up in Washington. I'm
14:32.234 --> 14:34.331
currently based in Oregon. so it
14:34.331 --> 14:35.296
looks like you were about hour
14:35.296 --> 14:37.016
and a half to two hours away
14:37.016 --> 14:40.556
from the Yacama Reservation. Did
14:40.851 --> 14:42.731
in your studies or growing up in
14:42.731 --> 14:43.891
that region, get to learn how
14:43.891 --> 14:43.971
that's going to be able to be?
14:44.041 --> 14:45.951
learn about those tribal lands
14:45.951 --> 14:47.497
and the different cultures?
14:47.598 --> 14:49.571
Yeah, it's a great question. I'm
14:49.571 --> 14:51.371
trying to think back to what we
14:51.371 --> 14:53.568
were taught. you know, I have a
14:53.568 --> 14:55.368
memory of being in middle school
14:55.368 --> 14:57.253
and Washington state history
14:57.243 --> 14:58.963
being a part of the mandated
14:58.973 --> 15:00.503
curriculum, wh, of course,
15:00.503 --> 15:02.432
included, you know, past history.
15:02.900 --> 15:05.434
history of the relationship
15:05.434 --> 15:07.374
between all the various
15:07.374 --> 15:10.324
indigenous in the area as well
15:10.324 --> 15:13.939
as like settlers moving in from
15:13.939 --> 15:15.999
the eastern united states in the
15:15.999 --> 15:19.589
past actually is an area that it
15:19.589 --> 15:21.509
was later in my life like maybe
15:21.509 --> 15:23.399
after as i started to delve more
15:23.399 --> 15:25.689
into this field and this work as
15:25.689 --> 15:27.549
an adult as in my various
15:27.549 --> 15:29.469
educational processes that i
15:29.469 --> 15:30.829
almost remember being called
15:30.829 --> 15:32.709
back to learn more about my
15:32.709 --> 15:34.709
hometown after i had left it
15:34.709 --> 15:35.829
which is really interesting
15:35.829 --> 15:37.821
right think of i gained a
15:37.821 --> 15:39.251
fascination i'd say when i was
15:39.251 --> 15:41.681
around grad school of kind of
15:41.681 --> 15:42.541
understanding the place that i
15:42.541 --> 15:44.401
had come from the history there
15:44.472 --> 15:46.252
my family's history there all of
15:46.252 --> 15:47.412
that and so i actually think it
15:47.412 --> 15:48.592
was more later in life that i
15:48.592 --> 15:50.072
started to think about those
15:50.072 --> 15:52.272
intersections than necessarily a
15:52.272 --> 15:54.152
memory that strikes up from my
15:54.152 --> 15:54.922
education and my youth
15:55.630 --> 15:58.306
that makes alex to date you've
15:58.306 --> 15:59.866
worked across engineering
16:00.202 --> 16:02.951
business law public service i'd
16:02.951 --> 16:05.271
love to hear about your time at
16:05.271 --> 16:07.351
the state department you were a
16:07.351 --> 16:08.221
senior advisor to former
16:08.921 --> 16:10.918
secretary John Kerrey office of
16:10.918 --> 16:12.658
the special presidential envoy
16:12.658 --> 16:14.333
for climate under the biden
16:14.333 --> 16:16.461
harris administration could you
16:16.461 --> 16:17.620
share a little bit about what
16:17.670 --> 16:19.070
that experience was
16:19.287 --> 16:22.783
yeah Uh, so, Secretary Kerry
16:22.783 --> 16:24.303
came in as the Special
16:24.303 --> 16:26.103
Presidential Envoy for Climate
16:26.103 --> 16:27.823
right at the start of the Biden
16:27.823 --> 16:28.823
administration, and there was
16:28.823 --> 16:32.493
kind of a team that... supported
16:32.493 --> 16:35.763
him worked on a variety of
16:35.763 --> 16:38.923
topics um and my role when i
16:38.923 --> 16:41.203
joined the team was to focus on
16:41.203 --> 16:43.046
a few different things i did a
16:43.046 --> 16:45.882
lot of work on Things that cross
16:45.882 --> 16:47.702
the climate resilience
16:47.702 --> 16:49.588
intersection. So think the way I
16:49.588 --> 16:51.128
would describe that is climate
16:51.128 --> 16:52.658
and health, thinking about the
16:52.658 --> 16:54.508
implications of climate change
16:54.508 --> 16:56.168
on people's health, but also
16:56.168 --> 16:57.408
thinking about like the
16:57.408 --> 16:58.788
decarbonization of health
16:58.788 --> 17:01.918
systems, um climate and ocean at
17:01.918 --> 17:03.258
certain points in time, climate
17:03.258 --> 17:04.388
sea level rise, climate
17:05.636 --> 17:08.108
migration, all these kinds of
17:08.108 --> 17:09.828
intersections where climate
17:09.828 --> 17:10.898
change is also impacting other
17:11.298 --> 17:14.794
areas of work or the economy and
17:14.794 --> 17:16.074
thinking about the complex kind
17:16.074 --> 17:17.474
of ecosystems around those
17:18.224 --> 17:19.174
intersections and how we
17:19.174 --> 17:20.884
actually move forward solutions.
17:21.144 --> 17:22.622
Some of the work was, know,
17:22.632 --> 17:24.602
within negotiation processes. So
17:24.612 --> 17:26.066
sometimes I negotiated, under
17:26.076 --> 17:28.439
the Paris Agreement or, the UN
17:28.439 --> 17:29.539
General Assembly or these
17:29.539 --> 17:31.539
multilateral institutions. Other
17:31.539 --> 17:33.162
time it was coordination, know,
17:33.162 --> 17:34.362
across the federal government
17:34.362 --> 17:35.977
thinking about, what's the
17:35.977 --> 17:37.612
priority, what's the opportunity
17:37.612 --> 17:38.902
here to move forward new ideas
17:39.062 --> 17:41.099
and solutions. Um, I will say
17:41.099 --> 17:42.859
like, I look back on that time
17:42.859 --> 17:44.243
as working with one of the most
17:44.553 --> 17:46.133
amazing teams I've ever worked
17:46.133 --> 17:47.833
with who were all like so
17:47.833 --> 17:49.173
dedicated towards thinking about
17:49.683 --> 17:51.693
what can we do right now in this
17:51.693 --> 17:53.173
moment. and they're really
17:53.173 --> 17:54.273
complicated problems and nothing
17:54.273 --> 17:56.263
ever happens as quickly as we
17:56.263 --> 17:58.373
would like it to, but I feel
17:58.373 --> 18:00.156
really both like grateful and
18:00.156 --> 18:01.496
lucky to have had such an
18:01.496 --> 18:02.876
amazing opportunity, especially
18:02.876 --> 18:04.509
for me earlier on in my career.
18:04.865 --> 18:07.377
i'm what countries would you um
18:07.890 --> 18:10.700
identify as sort of being the
18:10.700 --> 18:12.460
progressive leaders on this
18:12.460 --> 18:14.841
issue now i'm assuming the
18:14.841 --> 18:17.600
united states is not what what
18:17.600 --> 18:19.783
countries have active in this
18:19.783 --> 18:20.093
area
18:20.846 --> 18:22.068
yeah it's a great question um
18:22.953 --> 18:24.379
one thing that, has struck me
18:24.379 --> 18:25.639
over the last year is just kind
18:25.639 --> 18:27.499
of looking at the international
18:27.499 --> 18:30.385
ecosystem of actors is that it
18:30.385 --> 18:33.475
really feels like everywhere
18:33.475 --> 18:35.575
else in the world, people are
18:35.575 --> 18:37.431
still very much know, aware of
18:37.431 --> 18:39.751
the challenge, looking at like
18:39.751 --> 18:41.071
the climate impacts that people
18:41.071 --> 18:43.371
are facing and trying to move
18:43.371 --> 18:45.683
forward ideas and solutions. And,
18:45.683 --> 18:47.783
you know, I think the long, time
18:47.783 --> 18:49.972
advocates that I, can point to
18:49.972 --> 18:51.452
on particular issues, I think
18:51.452 --> 18:53.752
are still driving those forward
18:53.752 --> 18:55.371
in the best way, right? So, an
18:55.371 --> 18:57.479
example that comes to mind, um,
18:57.425 --> 18:59.755
is, island nations, low-lying
18:59.755 --> 19:01.455
coastal areas have for a long
19:01.455 --> 19:03.703
time been advocating for of
19:03.703 --> 19:05.883
adaptation, resili, support. And
19:05.883 --> 19:07.683
I think I've seen, you know,
19:07.683 --> 19:09.455
movement and changes not only in
19:09.455 --> 19:10.935
the last few years, but even in
19:10.935 --> 19:13.135
the last year on thinking about,
19:12.831 --> 19:14.934
know, protection of persons in
19:14.934 --> 19:16.834
the face of sea level rise, or
19:16.834 --> 19:19.214
kind of continuing to be that
19:19.214 --> 19:20.674
voice on a global stage saying
19:20.674 --> 19:22.374
like, here's what's happening to
19:22.374 --> 19:24.683
us on the front lines. my
19:24.673 --> 19:25.743
perception has been that the
19:25.743 --> 19:27.782
global community is still of
19:27.782 --> 19:29.332
driving things forward. And I
19:29.342 --> 19:30.652
feel like we see that, you know,
19:30.652 --> 19:33.052
in news alerts that come around
19:33.062 --> 19:34.842
about, what did people discuss
19:34.842 --> 19:36.222
at, you know, this big convening
19:36.212 --> 19:38.022
that happened just, I think,
19:38.012 --> 19:39.142
last week, or might be happening
19:39.142 --> 19:41.618
right now, in Fiji in advance of
19:41.628 --> 19:44.432
COP 31, which is in, just a
19:44.432 --> 19:46.146
month away. And so those, those
19:46.146 --> 19:47.566
convenings are still happening.
19:47.576 --> 19:49.208
Those countries are thinking of
19:49.208 --> 19:50.208
solutions, pushing things
19:50.208 --> 19:50.478
forward.
19:51.225 --> 19:52.826
the State Department sent me thi
19:52.836 --> 19:54.655
is a number of years ago to the
19:54.645 --> 19:57.395
Maldives. And I remember when I
19:57.385 --> 20:00.522
was preparing for my trip one of
20:01.252 --> 20:05.112
dramatic examples that they did
20:05.112 --> 20:07.269
to, capture attention to this
20:07.269 --> 20:09.942
issue was that held a session of
20:09.942 --> 20:11.782
their parliament underwater.
20:12.045 --> 20:12.826
oh, wow.
20:12.884 --> 20:13.104
Yeah.
20:12.931 --> 20:14.924
How cool is that? That's
20:14.924 --> 20:16.072
definitely, one of his
20:16.072 --> 20:17.492
international trips that I would
20:17.492 --> 20:19.012
have to go on.
20:19.071 --> 20:19.821
sacrifice. Me too.
20:20.105 --> 20:22.903
it was a That I, had to make,
20:23.190 --> 20:24.450
you have to do these things in
20:24.450 --> 20:26.783
the human rights field. it was
20:26.783 --> 20:27.315
very beautiful.
20:27.994 --> 20:29.954
Alex, that's a perfect segue, to
20:29.954 --> 20:31.314
talk about the Maldives, but
20:31.314 --> 20:33.384
also to spotlight Fiji,
20:33.596 --> 20:36.174
Bangladesh, Peru. you shared
20:36.174 --> 20:39.154
with from the organization, we
20:39.154 --> 20:41.477
adapt, which is maintained by
20:41.477 --> 20:42.787
Stockholm environment Institute.
20:43.507 --> 20:45.157
It's an independent nonprofit
20:45.157 --> 20:46.657
research and policy organization
20:46.657 --> 20:49.776
that was established in 2007. It
20:49.776 --> 20:51.256
connects researchers,
20:51.256 --> 20:53.336
policymakers, practitioners to
20:53.336 --> 20:55.076
share research, case studies,
20:55.675 --> 20:58.017
like truly guidance on climate
20:58.017 --> 21:00.216
adaptation. and if I may just
21:00.216 --> 21:01.916
share some key statistics from
21:01.916 --> 21:05.439
that report that in Fiji in 2017,
21:05.439 --> 21:08.499
their government identified 830
21:08.499 --> 21:10.959
communities requiring relocation
21:10.959 --> 21:12.409
because of climate-related risks.
21:12.989 --> 21:14.619
48 of them were classified as
21:14.619 --> 21:17.639
urgent. also between 2006 and
21:17.639 --> 21:21.359
2014, 153 residents in Fiji were
21:21.359 --> 21:23.139
relocated inland because of
21:23.139 --> 21:25.939
tidal flooding, coastal erosion,
21:25.939 --> 21:28.439
and saltwater intrusion. So I
21:28.439 --> 21:29.899
think this is a really important
21:29.899 --> 21:32.307
subject to talk communities that
21:32.307 --> 21:34.407
are islanders, that are affected
21:34.407 --> 21:36.607
by low-lying island nations,
21:36.607 --> 21:39.298
rising sea levels. but also
21:39.298 --> 21:41.679
about, these vulnerable
21:41.679 --> 21:43.047
communities who haven't haven't
21:43.047 --> 21:44.747
really had a big carbon
21:44.747 --> 21:46.507
footprint. They haven't,
21:46.873 --> 21:49.673
impacted the climate crisis, but
21:49.673 --> 21:51.773
yet they're some of the first on
21:51.773 --> 21:53.693
the front lines that are being
21:53.693 --> 21:55.467
affected. going to pass that off
21:55.467 --> 21:57.814
to you, Alex, and let of walk us
21:57.814 --> 21:59.404
through this subject now.
21:59.866 --> 22:02.140
Yes, Uh, well, so, Bert, when
22:02.140 --> 22:03.449
you, you mentioned that you saw
22:03.449 --> 22:05.009
a meeting that was held
22:05.009 --> 22:06.509
underwater, the first thing that
22:06.509 --> 22:08.826
came to mind was actually, I
22:08.826 --> 22:09.926
remember watching, I think it
22:09.926 --> 22:12.966
was in advance of COP26. And so,
22:12.966 --> 22:14.466
COP is, you know, the big
22:14.466 --> 22:15.726
conference of parties that
22:15.726 --> 22:17.886
happen the Paris Agreement and
22:17.886 --> 22:19.406
the UN Framework Convention on
22:19.406 --> 22:21.466
Climate Change, which is the
22:21.466 --> 22:23.916
1992 agreement related to, um,
22:23.916 --> 22:24.916
climate change that kind of
22:24.916 --> 22:26.216
launched. This whole
22:26.216 --> 22:27.828
international process. I
22:27.828 --> 22:29.288
remember, I think the foreign
22:29.288 --> 22:32.225
minister of Tuvalu had, was
22:32.225 --> 22:34.345
standing knee-deep in water,
22:34.345 --> 22:35.925
giving an address know, to
22:36.210 --> 22:38.590
global community saying, this is
22:38.590 --> 22:39.970
already affecting us now. Like,
22:39.970 --> 22:41.630
wha are we going to do about it,
22:41.630 --> 22:44.070
right? And so, maybe just to
22:44.070 --> 22:46.537
take a step you know, I've
22:46.537 --> 22:47.657
mentioned a couple times already
22:47.670 --> 22:48.961
that I, find a lot of personal
22:48.961 --> 22:50.631
passion working on thinking
22:50.631 --> 22:53.771
about how we adapt to climate
22:53.771 --> 22:55.471
impacts. And climate impacts is
22:55.471 --> 22:57.011
an extremely broad term, right?
22:57.011 --> 22:58.631
Uh, it can mean a lot of
22:58.631 --> 23:01.047
different Uh, I tend to think of
23:01.047 --> 23:03.436
things in terms what I'll call,
23:03.436 --> 23:05.136
like, extreme events. And so,
23:05.136 --> 23:07.224
like, a hurricane or, like,
23:07.224 --> 23:08.924
major flooding that has an, all
23:08.924 --> 23:11.241
of a sudden, pretty severe
23:11.241 --> 23:14.081
impact on a community, an area.
23:14.081 --> 23:16.041
There's often, like, really,
23:15.734 --> 23:17.664
complicated reconstruction and
23:17.664 --> 23:19.284
recovery efforts that have to
23:19.284 --> 23:20.544
occur in the wake of something
23:20.544 --> 23:22.504
like that. And then I also think
23:22.504 --> 23:23.584
about what I'll maybe call slow
23:23.894 --> 23:25.979
onset events, which are, this
23:25.979 --> 23:27.479
isn't a perfect distinction by
23:27.479 --> 23:29.659
any means, but maybe we at least
23:29.659 --> 23:31.499
tend to think of them as things
23:31.499 --> 23:32.899
that are happening over a longer
23:32.899 --> 23:35.199
period of time, right? And so,
23:35.249 --> 23:37.049
sea level rise is one of those
23:37.049 --> 23:38.189
things that I think people have
23:38.189 --> 23:40.089
long called a slow onset event.
23:40.089 --> 23:42.679
I think that name can maybe mask
23:42.679 --> 23:44.499
that there many places in the
23:44.499 --> 23:46.719
world that are already acutely
23:46.719 --> 23:48.279
experiencing sea level rise in a
23:48.279 --> 23:49.919
way that is, like, actively
23:49.919 --> 23:51.619
affecting their day-to-day lives,
23:51.619 --> 23:53.911
right? and so, the nations and
23:53.911 --> 23:55.671
communities that you referenced,
23:55.671 --> 23:56.732
Meredith, are, that have really
23:56.732 --> 23:58.832
been the long-time advocates on
23:58.832 --> 24:00.352
this topic and really deserve
24:00.352 --> 24:02.632
the credit for continuously,
24:02.457 --> 24:04.397
like, raising awareness while
24:04.397 --> 24:06.077
they're on the front lines of
24:06.077 --> 24:08.657
the climate impact and coming up
24:08.657 --> 24:10.597
with really creative solutions
24:10.597 --> 24:11.977
and really,I would say, like,
24:11.977 --> 24:13.677
leading international efforts on
24:13.677 --> 24:15.927
this, right? U, and so, you can
24:15.927 --> 24:18.378
imagine that, nations that have
24:18.378 --> 24:20.158
a lot of low-lying coastal areas,
24:20.158 --> 24:21.638
whether it's island nations in
24:21.638 --> 24:23.858
the Pacific or other areas that
24:23.858 --> 24:25.738
have coastal land that is quite,
24:25.738 --> 24:27.978
like, acutely vulnerable to sea
24:27.978 --> 24:30.258
level rise, are kind of looking
24:30.258 --> 24:31.438
at the way that climate change
24:31.438 --> 24:32.998
is impacting them. And there is
24:32.998 --> 24:34.778
this question of, are these
24:34.778 --> 24:36.858
areas going to be inhabitable?
24:36.671 --> 24:38.331
And especially when you are an
24:38.331 --> 24:40.491
island that doesn't have tons of
24:40.491 --> 24:41.401
land and a lot of land and a lot
24:41.401 --> 24:42.591
of land that is at risk from sea
24:42.591 --> 24:44.731
level rise, then that leads to
24:44.731 --> 24:46.191
the question of, is the whole
24:46.191 --> 24:47.091
country going to be
24:47.091 --> 24:49.351
uninhabitable one day, right?
24:49.141 --> 24:50.881
day, when I say that, I kind of
24:50.881 --> 24:52.841
think on the scale of the next
24:52.841 --> 24:55.217
25 years, which isn't that far
24:55.217 --> 24:59.037
away. that's a very tough And
24:59.037 --> 25:01.717
I've seen solutions that are
25:01.717 --> 25:04.077
extremely creative and also
25:04.077 --> 25:06.057
reflective of just, like, how
25:06.057 --> 25:08.252
big of challenge we are facing
25:08.252 --> 25:09.952
as a community and managing all
25:09.952 --> 25:11.954
of these impacts. Um, I think it
25:11.954 --> 25:13.654
was also Tuvalu that said that
25:13.654 --> 25:15.054
they were going to start
25:15.054 --> 25:16.394
preserving their land and
25:16.394 --> 25:18.114
culture and history through kind
25:18.114 --> 25:20.327
of digital means. I think the
25:20.327 --> 25:21.727
phrase was like first digital
25:21.727 --> 25:23.829
nation almost. Right. there's
25:23.829 --> 25:25.029
obviously a lot of coastal
25:25.029 --> 25:26.509
adaptation work that happens and
25:26.509 --> 25:28.049
you see international funding
25:28.049 --> 25:30.366
for those projects. there's
25:30.366 --> 25:31.806
planned relocation, which is, I
25:31.806 --> 25:33.166
think what you were getting at
25:33.166 --> 25:34.906
Meredith as well, which is what
25:34.906 --> 25:36.686
if you have to physically move a
25:36.686 --> 25:38.026
whole community? And that might
25:38.026 --> 25:40.426
be because literally the lands
25:40.426 --> 25:42.426
that you are living on will be
25:42.426 --> 25:43.686
underwater one day. It could
25:43.686 --> 25:45.696
also be because, you know,
25:45.696 --> 25:47.514
you're coastal community that
25:47.514 --> 25:49.314
relies on fishing, for example,
25:49.314 --> 25:51.354
for your economic means. And
25:51.354 --> 25:53.054
because of climate change, the
25:53.054 --> 25:54.674
fish are dying or because of
25:54.674 --> 25:56.374
overfishing and climate change,
25:56.374 --> 25:57.194
right? Like there is a
25:57.194 --> 25:58.974
confluence of factors that
25:58.974 --> 26:00.254
affect your ability to live
26:00.254 --> 26:02.034
somewhere. And so countries are
26:02.034 --> 26:03.054
kind of grappling with the
26:03.054 --> 26:04.774
question of, can you move an
26:04.774 --> 26:06.394
entire community? What are the
26:06.394 --> 26:07.334
cultural ramifications? What are
26:07.334 --> 26:07.754
the cultural ramifications of
26:07.754 --> 26:10.034
that? How do you do it
26:10.034 --> 26:11.314
financially? What is the support
26:11.314 --> 26:14.325
that you need? And, that planned
26:14.325 --> 26:15.605
relocation question, I'll just
26:15.605 --> 26:17.605
note, isn't something that is,
26:17.676 --> 26:18.856
just for those of us that are
26:18.856 --> 26:20.036
listening from the U. S., like,
26:20.036 --> 26:21.336
in a faraway place, right? Like,
26:21.336 --> 26:22.696
there are places here that are
26:22.696 --> 26:24.596
grappling with those same
26:24.596 --> 26:25.436
questions, right? Like, there
26:25.436 --> 26:28.074
are, are places in Louisiana or,
26:27.970 --> 26:29.270
I think of Alaska where
26:29.270 --> 26:31.110
permafrost may be melting and
26:31.110 --> 26:32.390
impacting the literal, like,
26:32.390 --> 26:33.590
ground that communities are
26:33.590 --> 26:34.690
built on that have to think
26:34.690 --> 26:36.670
about these questions of what
26:36.670 --> 26:38.538
does our long-term, like,
26:38.538 --> 26:39.898
ability to live in this
26:39.898 --> 26:40.808
particular place mean?
26:42.039 --> 26:44.039
I was just thinking as you were
26:44.039 --> 26:46.669
speaking one of the examples in
26:46.669 --> 26:49.254
international law traditionally
26:49.254 --> 26:52.114
is cited as being successful,
26:52.237 --> 26:54.037
was the Law of the Sea
26:54.037 --> 26:54.337
Convention.
26:54.609 --> 26:54.869
Mm.
26:54.743 --> 26:57.333
But the country that led that
26:57.333 --> 27:00.790
effort was Malta, one of the
27:00.790 --> 27:03.117
reasons, they cite that it was
27:03.117 --> 27:06.441
successful was at the time,
27:07.008 --> 27:09.208
technology had not advanced to
27:09.218 --> 27:12.372
the point where, countries would
27:12.372 --> 27:15.432
be able to mind beyond the
27:15.432 --> 27:16.292
continental shelf, um, be on the
27:16.292 --> 27:18.130
continental now we're at a point
27:18.130 --> 27:20.348
where they can, and, and so,
27:20.404 --> 27:22.384
there's some analogy that
27:22.384 --> 27:25.519
they've drawn the current
27:25.519 --> 27:27.359
efforts to try to get regulation
27:27.359 --> 27:30.361
of outer space. again, we're
27:30.681 --> 27:33.120
running up uh, a ticking clock
27:33.120 --> 27:36.625
because some countries are even
27:36.625 --> 27:38.752
private companies. Elon Musk.
27:39.506 --> 27:42.320
they now are. there's, t risk
27:42.320 --> 27:43.840
now because they're sort of at a
27:43.840 --> 27:46.507
point where they can, start
27:46.883 --> 27:48.983
activities, mining the moon. And,
27:48.983 --> 27:51.793
you know, they're talking about,
27:53.388 --> 27:54.942
facilities on the moon will
27:54.942 --> 27:58.051
allow them um, take minerals and
27:58.051 --> 28:01.850
things But also use it as a base
28:01.850 --> 28:03.898
for, beginning exploration
28:03.898 --> 28:05.646
toward other, uh, planets. So,
28:05.753 --> 28:06.893
you know, dad, you just reminded
28:06.893 --> 28:09.866
me of report I just watched by
28:09.866 --> 28:11.626
the media nonprofit, More
28:11.626 --> 28:13.244
Perfect Union. Alex, I'll send
28:13.244 --> 28:14.324
it to you. And I'll also, for
28:14.324 --> 28:15.344
our listeners, put it in our
28:15.344 --> 28:18.667
show notes. They go to the town
28:18.667 --> 28:21.407
in Texas where Musk has his
28:21.407 --> 28:24.127
launch pad for his rockets and
28:24.127 --> 28:27.447
interviews homeowners, renters
28:27.447 --> 28:30.487
there. And I had no idea the
28:30.487 --> 28:33.367
implications on people's homes
28:33.367 --> 28:35.327
that the rocket blasts are
28:35.327 --> 28:37.187
creating earthquakes. And their
28:37.187 --> 28:38.407
houses are starting to have
28:38.407 --> 28:39.667
cracks in the ceiling, cracks in
28:39.667 --> 28:42.467
the walls. You can literally see
28:42.467 --> 28:45.067
homes and windows just shaking
28:45.067 --> 28:46.197
when these blasts are going off.
28:46.577 --> 28:48.167
And then they also interviewed
28:48.167 --> 28:49.587
scientists and conservationists
28:49.587 --> 28:52.387
of the implications these rocket
28:52.387 --> 28:53.387
parts that are just falling to
28:53.387 --> 28:55.807
the ground are having on, you
28:55.807 --> 28:57.307
know, the sand, the erosion.
28:57.907 --> 28:59.817
What's also happening with
28:59.817 --> 29:01.877
native species. There's turtles
29:01.877 --> 29:03.677
down there that are already high
29:03.677 --> 29:06.037
risk and endangered. It was
29:06.037 --> 29:06.966
fascinating. this And to tell
29:06.966 --> 29:08.106
you the truth, I didn't know a
29:08.106 --> 29:09.566
lot about it from the people
29:09.566 --> 29:11.266
that live there and are
29:11.266 --> 29:13.286
experiencing this because Musk
29:13.286 --> 29:15.266
put out a statement that this is
29:15.266 --> 29:17.266
like no man's land. Nobody lives
29:17.266 --> 29:18.686
there. And then these people
29:18.686 --> 29:21.505
were like, we live here. We are
29:21.505 --> 29:23.865
a complete community down here
29:23.865 --> 29:25.645
that are being implicated not
29:25.645 --> 29:28.585
just as humans, but also as
29:28.585 --> 29:31.045
animals, sea life, plants, etc.
29:31.548 --> 29:34.228
Yes, absolutely. would love to
29:34.384 --> 29:35.669
watch, read all about that.
29:35.798 --> 29:37.138
if I may, just really quick,
29:37.138 --> 29:38.878
because Alex, you brought up the
29:38.878 --> 29:41.238
island Tuvalu, I don't always
29:41.238 --> 29:42.698
think they get the limelight
29:42.698 --> 29:45.487
that they a video I shared with
29:45.487 --> 29:48.124
you, and Dad as well, by Al
29:48.124 --> 29:49.944
Jazeer. And it featured a
29:49.944 --> 29:52.004
13-year-old who was speaking to
29:52.004 --> 29:54.344
world leaders ahead of the COP
29:54.344 --> 29:56.421
31. I just want to quote her
29:56.421 --> 29:58.661
because she was happy. Making
29:58.661 --> 30:00.681
her voice heard and representing
30:00.681 --> 30:03.156
her entire community. she said,
30:03.156 --> 30:05.196
quote, We are not asking for
30:05.196 --> 30:07.396
pity. We are asking for help in
30:07.396 --> 30:09.446
partnership she is pleading with
30:09.446 --> 30:11.846
global leaders to take action to
30:11.846 --> 30:13.746
protect her country's future
30:13.746 --> 30:16.066
because they may very well have
30:16.066 --> 30:17.436
to look ahead at planned
30:17.716 --> 30:19.466
relocation. But just like you
30:19.466 --> 30:21.606
said, Alex, what does that mean
30:21.606 --> 30:24.236
for culture? it's not just about
30:24.236 --> 30:27.396
land. It's also their heritage,
30:28.236 --> 30:30.196
their traditions, and also where
30:30.196 --> 30:30.956
do they go?
30:31.550 --> 30:34.050
Me, I also wanted to mention,
30:34.151 --> 30:36.452
that came to mind with your,
30:36.623 --> 30:39.309
last comment that, there's now,
30:39.212 --> 30:41.592
a new effort, a recent effort,
30:41.622 --> 30:44.639
that I read that is attempting
30:44.639 --> 30:49.389
to get animals some kind of
30:49.399 --> 30:52.619
status. mean, similar to humans
30:52.619 --> 30:54.702
and human rights, that where
30:54.702 --> 30:57.062
like you can sue on behalf of
30:57.062 --> 31:01.077
animals for, co or governments
31:01.077 --> 31:03.417
that are taking actions that are
31:03.417 --> 31:05.297
detrimental to their,
31:05.431 --> 31:09.609
livelihoods. and this is
31:09.609 --> 31:11.089
connected with indigenous
31:11.089 --> 31:12.697
peoples and of their
31:12.697 --> 31:15.174
relationships the animals,uh ,
31:15.174 --> 31:16.444
the part you're talking about,
31:16.444 --> 31:18.477
cultu and the like. it's going
31:18.477 --> 31:20.784
to be interesting to see how if
31:20.784 --> 31:23.588
it takes but how that, u,develops
31:23.671 --> 31:26.121
, with respect to status, uh, as
31:26.131 --> 31:27.571
far as international law is
31:27.941 --> 31:28.171
concerned.
31:28.524 --> 31:30.474
Maybe just a couple reactions,
31:30.946 --> 31:32.466
to your first point, Meredith.
31:32.666 --> 31:35.221
mean, absolutely. Right. is, it
31:35.221 --> 31:37.221
is difficult to even
31:37.221 --> 31:39.401
conceptually fathom the idea of
31:39.401 --> 31:41.361
moving an entire community of
31:41.361 --> 31:43.660
people that has lived in an area
31:44.041 --> 31:46.351
however long years, decades,
31:46.351 --> 31:47.905
hundreds of years. Right. there
31:47.905 --> 31:51.377
is so much culture, heritage, I
31:51.377 --> 31:53.317
would call it non-economic loss
31:53.317 --> 31:54.357
necessarily, things that you
31:54.357 --> 31:56.517
can't put a, like a dollar price
31:56.517 --> 31:57.993
on, but are clearly like
31:57.993 --> 31:59.673
immeasurably valuable to people
31:59.673 --> 32:01.673
in communities. The, you know,
32:01.673 --> 32:03.013
mental health implications of
32:03.013 --> 32:04.570
that, all of, all of that, I
32:04.570 --> 32:06.690
think are deeply important
32:06.690 --> 32:08.189
considerations. I would also
32:08.189 --> 32:09.589
maybe point to, I think it was
32:09.589 --> 32:12.594
in March of this year, there the
32:12.594 --> 32:15.714
launch of regional guidance by
32:15.714 --> 32:17.874
Pacific governments on planned
32:17.874 --> 32:19.984
relocation. And in that, you
32:19.984 --> 32:21.134
know, I think the language that
32:21.134 --> 32:23.364
was used was, this should be
32:23.364 --> 32:25.424
grounded in self-determination
32:25.424 --> 32:27.324
of communities, right? Like it
32:27.440 --> 32:28.960
is critically important that it
32:28.960 --> 32:31.640
is the communities that are
32:31.640 --> 32:33.400
deciding that only have a voice,
32:33.400 --> 32:35.480
but have like the ability to
32:35.480 --> 32:38.060
make decisions and to lead
32:38.060 --> 32:39.640
themselves into whatever comes
32:39.640 --> 32:41.387
next. Right. And those
32:41.387 --> 32:42.833
guidelines also noted, right.
32:42.643 --> 32:44.558
That, something like planned
32:44.558 --> 32:48.118
relocation really occurs after
32:48.118 --> 32:50.738
the adaptation strategies that
32:50.738 --> 32:53.078
are locally preferred by that
32:53.078 --> 32:55.178
community have been explored and
32:55.178 --> 32:56.738
exhausted, right? Like, this is
32:56.738 --> 32:59.263
a, I hesitate to use the phrase,
32:59.263 --> 33:01.257
like, intervention of last
33:01.257 --> 33:02.247
resort, but it's like, it's not
33:02.237 --> 33:03.287
the first thing you reach for
33:03.547 --> 33:04.897
because of the implications that
33:04.897 --> 33:06.307
I think we can all think through
33:06.297 --> 33:08.140
that, that it has. and so just
33:08.130 --> 33:10.250
to say, this is an area that
33:10.260 --> 33:11.980
people are actively dealing with.
33:12.010 --> 33:13.720
It's not some like far off in
33:13.720 --> 33:15.050
the future thing where it's like,
33:15.050 --> 33:16.130
oh, well, in 20 years, we're
33:16.220 --> 33:17.560
going to have to start grappling
33:17.550 --> 33:18.920
with this issue. So we don't
33:18.910 --> 33:20.800
have to think about it now. This
33:20.800 --> 33:22.826
is very a, like, no, people on
33:22.826 --> 33:23.936
the front lines are actively
33:23.926 --> 33:25.476
thinking about it, pulling
33:25.476 --> 33:27.516
together guidelines, already
33:27.516 --> 33:29.656
relocating individuals and
33:29.656 --> 33:30.700
communities, right?Like this
33:30.710 --> 33:32.450
isn't like a, a thing of the
33:32.440 --> 33:33.630
future that is being dealt with,
33:33.630 --> 33:36.300
but rather a real challenge. And,
33:36.352 --> 33:38.182
the ability of the international
33:38.182 --> 33:39.802
community to provide funding and
33:39.812 --> 33:42.032
other help and partnership is, I
33:42.022 --> 33:44.112
think, essential to being able
33:44.102 --> 33:44.982
to ensure that those communities
33:45.262 --> 33:46.382
have the autonomy and
33:46.392 --> 33:48.022
self-determination that they
33:48.022 --> 33:50.413
deserve. and then Bert to your
33:50.413 --> 33:52.268
point, uh, this is an area, this,
33:52.268 --> 33:53.428
this kind of separate legal
33:53.428 --> 33:55.331
question like rights of nature,
33:55.331 --> 33:57.192
rights of animals. this is
33:57.192 --> 33:58.992
something I am fascinated by and
33:58.992 --> 33:59.992
actually have been wanting to
33:59.992 --> 34:01.552
dig into more myself and when
34:01.552 --> 34:03.732
I'm able to, because, you know,
34:03.904 --> 34:05.429
kind of this question of, uh,
34:05.786 --> 34:08.166
does nature, for example, like a
34:08.166 --> 34:10.246
river inherently have rights
34:10.246 --> 34:12.042
that you can use the, like,
34:12.042 --> 34:14.962
legal tools to protect? And if
34:14.962 --> 34:17.216
so, does that open up avenues
34:17.216 --> 34:18.876
for, like, legal recourse or
34:18.876 --> 34:20.636
litigation that might not exist?
34:20.022 --> 34:22.682
Um, of course, in the U. S., uh,
34:22.682 --> 34:24.262
we have, like,standing doctrine
34:24.262 --> 34:25.945
and lots of, of things that go
34:25.945 --> 34:27.805
into being able to bring a And,
34:27.805 --> 34:29.245
but there are other countries,
34:29.666 --> 34:30.706
perhaps this is something we can
34:30.706 --> 34:31.846
link to in the comments, and
34:31.846 --> 34:33.426
I'll, I'll do some research and
34:33.426 --> 34:34.386
send you some stuff, Meredith.
34:34.386 --> 34:35.906
But I think there are other
34:35.906 --> 34:37.226
countries in the world that are
34:37.226 --> 34:38.446
pushing forward this idea of,
34:38.446 --> 34:40.026
like, rights of nature. And it's
34:40.026 --> 34:41.646
a really interesting area to
34:41.646 --> 34:43.282
think about, like, what are new
34:43.282 --> 34:45.082
types of legal protections that
34:45.082 --> 34:48.076
could come from a to that type
34:48.076 --> 34:49.776
of, like, legal possibility,
34:49.776 --> 34:50.916
right? And, like, what comes
34:50.916 --> 34:51.876
after if you're able to
34:51.876 --> 34:52.286
establish that?
34:53.483 --> 34:55.623
ta me back about 40 years or
34:55.424 --> 34:57.832
animals but father, who was a
34:58.832 --> 35:00.952
brought a, uh, action on behalf
35:01.208 --> 35:04.708
a tree on one of uncle's,
35:04.961 --> 35:07.221
properties, which had been there,
35:07.135 --> 35:10.435
at the time of George Washington.
35:09.945 --> 35:10.445
Wow.
35:10.435 --> 35:13.725
And. This, the state was,
35:13.900 --> 35:15.760
widening the road and they
35:15.760 --> 35:18.136
wanted to tear down the tree. so
35:18.136 --> 35:19.676
he brought this action on behalf
35:19.676 --> 35:21.847
of the tree uh, uh, actually won
35:21.847 --> 35:24.527
it. so the tree prevailed and
35:24.860 --> 35:26.747
weren't able take it down.
35:27.139 --> 35:28.699
I would love to read about that.
35:29.151 --> 35:30.391
by any chance, do you remember
35:30.391 --> 35:31.851
the name of that case and the
35:31.851 --> 35:33.331
court from 40 years ago?
35:33.483 --> 35:35.613
Well, and, and, and I'm not even
35:35.613 --> 35:37.213
sure that it would have been, I
35:37.213 --> 35:38.929
mean, cause it was local
35:38.678 --> 35:38.698
sure.
35:38.929 --> 35:38.979
court.
35:39.008 --> 35:39.398
Yeah.
35:39.319 --> 35:41.609
I'm not even That it would have
35:41.609 --> 35:42.909
been reported
35:42.568 --> 35:42.778
Yeah.
35:42.909 --> 35:44.749
and published. So no, I don't
35:44.749 --> 35:45.801
think I can locate it.
35:46.881 --> 35:49.181
can we technically call gone?
35:49.261 --> 35:50.201
That's what I called my
35:50.201 --> 35:51.315
grandfather, an environmentalist.
35:52.374 --> 35:55.512
Well, you could, he certainly, l
35:55.512 --> 35:57.246
nature. that was something very
35:57.246 --> 35:59.378
important, to him. you remember
35:59.378 --> 36:00.138
Lake Titus.
36:00.300 --> 36:01.910
Yeah. Alex, our, our Lockwood
36:01.910 --> 36:03.450
side of the family, we're so
36:03.450 --> 36:04.597
blessed that, in the Adirondacks
36:04.777 --> 36:07.077
upstate New York, Very close to
36:07.077 --> 36:09.765
Montreal. we have a family
36:09.765 --> 36:13.516
bungalow camp, beautiful lake
36:13.092 --> 36:15.001
side house, in Lake Titus. It's
36:15.001 --> 36:16.481
a very small lake. The only way
36:16.481 --> 36:19.441
to get to our bungalow is by
36:19.646 --> 36:22.329
boat. and also every night you
36:22.329 --> 36:23.669
get to just see the loons and
36:23.669 --> 36:25.847
hear them all night long. we
36:25.847 --> 36:26.826
just wish we didn't live so
36:28.223 --> 36:28.423
Yeah.
36:29.292 --> 36:31.480
and it's, perfect, Alex, as
36:31.480 --> 36:32.700
Meredith said, y can only get to
36:32.710 --> 36:35.587
by boat. So, you don't have to,
36:35.832 --> 36:38.112
entertain people that you don't
36:38.112 --> 36:41.793
want to. You just don't. But
36:41.793 --> 36:42.653
Meredith, I don't know if you
36:42.653 --> 36:44.373
can see this. I just read last
36:44.373 --> 36:46.453
night, this book you sent me by
36:46.453 --> 36:47.103
Emma Gilligan.
36:47.298 --> 36:48.948
Oh yes. She's at Indiana
36:48.948 --> 36:49.788
university. Yeah.
36:49.925 --> 36:53.025
Yeah. the future and you, her
36:53.025 --> 36:53.125
primary advice
36:55.185 --> 36:58.859
is take time and go to nature, a
36:58.859 --> 37:00.949
lake or a mountain and hike and,
37:00.949 --> 37:04.579
but be totally off the grid, no
37:04.579 --> 37:05.939
contact. You don't bring your
37:05.939 --> 37:08.451
cell phone or anything. it's
37:08.451 --> 37:10.697
what we need to have for, a
37:10.697 --> 37:11.447
healthy living.
37:11.855 --> 37:13.505
well, the Japanese call that
37:13.495 --> 37:15.278
forest bathing um, therapeutic
37:15.278 --> 37:17.158
to go into nature and walk among
37:17.158 --> 37:20.023
trees and, listen to birds. U, a
37:20.023 --> 37:21.383
Alex, for your love of nature,
37:21.383 --> 37:22.343
you grew up in the Pacific
37:22.343 --> 37:23.643
Northwest, but you've spent
37:23.643 --> 37:25.683
recent years in D. C. and now
37:25.683 --> 37:27.303
Chicago, which Chicago is
37:27.303 --> 37:28.183
absolutely beautiful,
37:28.183 --> 37:29.123
particularly in the summertime
37:29.123 --> 37:31.049
with the lake everything. do you
37:31.049 --> 37:32.749
miss a little bit of that more
37:32.749 --> 37:34.639
Pacific Northwest nature?
37:35.322 --> 37:37.829
I always miss nature. I love
37:37.829 --> 37:39.149
living in cities. Like I love
37:39.149 --> 37:40.349
being around community and
37:40.349 --> 37:42.149
people and, you know, the city
37:42.149 --> 37:43.929
life, but everywhere I've lived,
37:43.929 --> 37:46.418
I've I imagine just walking and
37:46.418 --> 37:48.018
sitting in a forest to the point
37:48.018 --> 37:49.158
you just made, right? Like at
37:49.158 --> 37:50.658
any point in time to rest and
37:50.658 --> 37:52.488
recharge. where I grew up in the
37:52.488 --> 37:53.988
Pacific Northwest is a little
37:53.988 --> 37:55.546
unique because it's a, a
37:55.546 --> 37:57.266
semi-arid climate. And so it's
37:57.266 --> 37:59.046
actually quite dry. So I have
37:59.046 --> 38:00.466
this like deep rooted love of
38:00.466 --> 38:03.246
deserts from my time in like
38:03.246 --> 38:04.326
where I grew up.So it's a
38:04.326 --> 38:05.846
little different than the usual
38:05.846 --> 38:07.746
Pacific Northwest, like
38:07.746 --> 38:10.466
rainforest trees. And to answer
38:10.466 --> 38:11.926
your question, yes, but it's
38:11.926 --> 38:13.406
funny because I almost, I miss
38:13.406 --> 38:15.681
like, the literal tumbleweaves
38:15.681 --> 38:17.401
that would roll down the street.
38:17.401 --> 38:19.131
Right. I love desert climates.
38:19.221 --> 38:20.231
So I think they're like
38:20.231 --> 38:21.931
beautiful, wonderful ecosystems.
38:21.931 --> 38:24.202
And so, I always miss nature,but
38:24.202 --> 38:25.482
my, my version of the Pacific
38:25.482 --> 38:26.782
Northwest is a little different.
38:26.782 --> 38:27.032
Yeah.
38:27.307 --> 38:29.108
That makes sense. Um, I wanted
38:29.108 --> 38:32.076
to ask a legal question that we
38:32.076 --> 38:33.956
were talking about protecting
38:33.956 --> 38:35.719
species. Alex, I'm right there
38:35.719 --> 38:37.239
with you. I would love to dive
38:37.239 --> 38:39.419
into this using law,
38:39.419 --> 38:41.239
international law to protect
38:41.239 --> 38:43.434
species, both animals and even
38:43.434 --> 38:45.289
plants. And I'm thinking of the
38:45.289 --> 38:46.869
devastating oil spills we've
38:46.869 --> 38:48.575
seen at the hand of Shell. know,
38:49.891 --> 38:51.751
sorry, 2016, t Gulf of Mexico
38:51.751 --> 38:54.313
spill. they discharged over
38:54.303 --> 38:57.663
88,000 gallons of crude oil
38:58.664 --> 39:00.334
around 97 miles off the
39:00.324 --> 39:02.607
Louisiana coast. So I think all
39:02.607 --> 39:03.767
of us remember looking at the
39:03.757 --> 39:06.547
newsfeed and seeing the live
39:06.547 --> 39:09.267
videos and images of seabirds
39:09.257 --> 39:11.831
and turtles and other, marine
39:11.831 --> 39:14.321
life devastated by the oil spill.
39:15.001 --> 39:16.697
So I hope it never happens again,
39:16.697 --> 39:17.917
but the sad part is it will
39:17.917 --> 39:20.069
happen again if we were to use
39:20.069 --> 39:22.099
international law, maybe it's
39:22.099 --> 39:23.992
different in the ocean versus in
39:23.992 --> 39:26.839
a country's territory, who would
39:26.839 --> 39:30.099
be the legal force to sue on
39:30.099 --> 39:32.997
behalf of about sea life, it's
39:32.997 --> 39:34.757
uncharted territory with the
39:34.757 --> 39:34.997
oceans.
39:35.294 --> 39:37.567
So I imagine Burt has more smart
39:37.567 --> 39:38.727
things than I do to say about
39:38.727 --> 39:41.081
this. but with the classic
39:41.081 --> 39:43.081
lawyer qualifier of I'm not an
39:43.081 --> 39:44.601
expert in this area of law. So
39:44.601 --> 39:46.461
take this with a grain of salt,
39:46.461 --> 39:48.781
uh, not legal advice as lawyers
39:48.781 --> 39:51.289
love to say. Ri. Um, my general
39:51.289 --> 39:52.789
understanding is that under the
39:52.789 --> 39:54.429
UN convention on the law of the
39:54.429 --> 39:57.149
sea, there is a particular
39:57.149 --> 39:59.509
distance from territorial land.
40:00.099 --> 40:02.269
Like into the ocean that
40:02.269 --> 40:04.429
countries have kind of sovereign
40:03.722 --> 40:06.659
like rights to. so to your
40:06.659 --> 40:08.572
question of things that happen
40:08.572 --> 40:10.072
in that, you know, quo,
40:10.072 --> 40:12.052
exclusive economic zone or
40:12.052 --> 40:13.232
territorial sea, right. There's,
40:13.232 --> 40:14.412
there's different boundaries.
40:14.870 --> 40:15.590
200 miles.
40:15.598 --> 40:17.777
about 200 miles. Yes. I imagine
40:17.777 --> 40:19.937
that is within a particular
40:19.937 --> 40:21.302
country's of jurisdiction,
40:21.302 --> 40:22.482
though. I would want to go look
40:22.482 --> 40:24.622
that up in terms of the high
40:24.622 --> 40:26.282
seas. Right. So areas where no
40:26.282 --> 40:28.348
country has, of economic right
40:28.348 --> 40:29.668
or territorial right, whatever
40:29.668 --> 40:31.413
it is. I don't know the answer
40:31.413 --> 40:32.713
off the top of my head. I do
40:32.713 --> 40:34.251
know that, over the last couple
40:34.251 --> 40:35.831
of years, there were
40:35.831 --> 40:37.414
negotiations and a new, new
40:37.414 --> 40:40.706
treaty has come about I call it
40:40.706 --> 40:42.626
BBNJ because that's kind of the
40:42.626 --> 40:44.506
short acronym. I, I need to look
40:44.506 --> 40:46.266
up the exact name, but it's
40:46.266 --> 40:47.326
basically like the high seas
40:47.326 --> 40:48.906
treaty. I don't know if there
40:48.906 --> 40:50.486
are provisions for that sort of
40:50.486 --> 40:51.826
thing in there for like
40:51.826 --> 40:53.146
environmental damage on the high
40:53.146 --> 40:54.126
seas. I would need to go read
40:54.126 --> 40:55.646
the text of that, that latest
40:55.646 --> 40:56.256
treaty.
40:56.132 --> 40:58.442
there's, there's a recent case
40:58.442 --> 41:00.413
and I'm trying to if it was the,
41:01.023 --> 41:02.844
international court of justice
41:02.977 --> 41:05.942
or not on behalf of children who
41:05.942 --> 41:07.922
were suing for future
41:07.922 --> 41:10.336
generations on environmental
41:10.645 --> 41:12.605
issues. And they found they had
41:12.605 --> 41:15.246
standing safety. to bring action
41:15.246 --> 41:17.401
against countries, that would be
41:17.412 --> 41:20.078
if I'm correct, a good example
41:20.078 --> 41:23.038
of possible being able to
41:23.038 --> 41:24.768
establish that you have an
41:24.768 --> 41:27.428
interest in present-day actions
41:27.428 --> 41:30.828
because of its future impacts,
41:30.828 --> 41:32.912
um, so, yeah, I think there are
41:32.912 --> 41:35.074
some fairly recent, within the
41:35.074 --> 41:37.990
past two years, uh, cases I
41:37.990 --> 41:41.251
would good precedence for being
41:41.251 --> 41:44.012
able to find a broader group of
41:44.012 --> 41:45.494
individuals that can sue on this
41:45.494 --> 41:45.604
matter.
41:46.391 --> 41:47.931
I really hope we see that more
41:47.931 --> 41:50.304
and more, um, and if I may guide
41:50.304 --> 41:52.983
us to our last two topics, which,
41:52.974 --> 41:54.394
for AI, we've already touched a
41:54.394 --> 41:55.894
little bit on the iceberg, but
41:55.894 --> 41:58.734
I'd love to compassionately
41:58.734 --> 42:01.219
spotlight and what happened this
42:01.219 --> 42:02.759
year with the devastating
42:03.838 --> 42:05.308
looking up some of the key key
42:05.947 --> 42:09.472
of elevation of how high the
42:09.472 --> 42:12.473
flood reached in the valley was
42:12.473 --> 42:17.186
2,600 feet. it went well over
42:17.186 --> 42:19.046
four to five miles from the
42:19.046 --> 42:21.726
origin point. And we know one of
42:21.726 --> 42:25.626
the core causes was the melting
42:25.626 --> 42:27.786
of the snow on the mountains
42:27.786 --> 42:30.224
into the glacier. and Alex,
42:30.224 --> 42:31.204
since we have the honor of
42:31.204 --> 42:33.504
having you and your climate
42:33.504 --> 42:35.124
expertise, could you share with
42:35.124 --> 42:36.983
our listeners a little bit about
42:36.983 --> 42:39.023
the Nepal flooding and also the
42:39.023 --> 42:41.534
implications Nepalese and
42:41.534 --> 42:42.712
Tibetan the border region
42:43.131 --> 42:44.471
there are a lot of shocking
42:44.471 --> 42:46.051
climate events that happen and
42:46.051 --> 42:48.711
have happened over the last few
42:48.711 --> 42:51.414
years. this one, I feel like I'm
42:51.414 --> 42:53.134
still somewhat in shock over
42:53.134 --> 42:54.814
just seeing the scale of the
42:54.814 --> 42:56.304
destruction and devastation.
42:56.974 --> 42:58.454
just reading yesterday or two
42:58.454 --> 42:59.514
days ago that there are
42:59.514 --> 43:01.294
something like over 5,000 people
43:01.294 --> 43:02.954
that are still missing and
43:02.954 --> 43:05.986
unaccounted for. I guess from a
43:06.074 --> 43:07.974
climate perspective, if is a
43:07.974 --> 43:09.329
climate perspective here, that,
43:09.237 --> 43:10.477
there have been some studies
43:10.477 --> 43:12.861
that, of came out after the
43:12.861 --> 43:14.281
flooding where it was like, okay,
43:14.281 --> 43:15.801
well, perhaps there were
43:15.801 --> 43:17.811
multiple factors at play here.
43:18.341 --> 43:20.404
So it's, know, climate change
43:20.737 --> 43:22.397
caused glacial retreat, right.
43:22.407 --> 43:25.837
Which is then fine frozen ground
43:25.837 --> 43:27.637
that bound mountain rock
43:27.637 --> 43:29.017
together. And so as that starts
43:29.017 --> 43:30.887
to melt of because of climate
43:30.887 --> 43:33.366
change, that plus, past
43:33.366 --> 43:34.306
earthquakes, like all of this,
43:34.306 --> 43:36.086
like confluence of factors can
43:36.086 --> 43:37.338
result in some of these like
43:37.338 --> 43:39.058
events that we are seeing, and
43:38.912 --> 43:39.992
of climate change is
43:39.992 --> 43:42.732
intensifying processes that,
43:42.637 --> 43:43.627
make everything less stable.
43:43.637 --> 43:46.371
Right. Um, that and I think the
43:46.371 --> 43:47.908
thing strikes me in thinking
43:47.908 --> 43:49.858
about that is, earlier in this
43:49.858 --> 43:51.018
conversation, I made a
43:51.018 --> 43:52.658
distinction between like extreme
43:52.658 --> 43:54.058
events and slow onset events.
43:54.318 --> 43:56.798
And I'm maybe questioning my own
43:56.798 --> 43:58.398
use of that distinction to this
43:58.398 --> 44:00.538
day. Right. Because I think
44:00.538 --> 44:02.898
glacial retreat as a climate
44:02.898 --> 44:04.598
impact is something most folks
44:04.598 --> 44:06.118
would largely have considered a
44:06.118 --> 44:08.058
slow onset event, right. It
44:08.058 --> 44:09.552
happens because of warming
44:09.552 --> 44:10.972
temperatures over time. But
44:10.972 --> 44:13.688
here's an example of like a like
44:13.688 --> 44:15.208
shocking and extreme event that
44:15.208 --> 44:16.468
happened as a result, at least
44:16.468 --> 44:18.428
in part because of glacial
44:18.428 --> 44:20.961
retreat. And so, know, maybe
44:20.961 --> 44:22.721
breaking down that artificial
44:22.721 --> 44:24.381
barrier between like immediate
44:24.381 --> 44:26.921
and long-term climate effects
44:26.921 --> 44:29.941
we're seeing now just in Nepal
44:29.941 --> 44:32.010
about what it looks when you
44:32.010 --> 44:33.490
start to see this scale of
44:33.490 --> 44:35.030
devastation and the amount of
44:35.030 --> 44:36.110
recovery and reconstruction
44:36.110 --> 44:38.505
that's going to, be happening,
44:38.300 --> 44:39.230
just in the wake of this event.
44:39.240 --> 44:40.420
Right. And much less the things
44:40.420 --> 44:42.247
that may still be to come. so,
44:42.247 --> 44:43.192
you know, perhaps we can't
44:43.192 --> 44:44.382
really think long-term anymore.
44:44.462 --> 44:45.612
Like there's nothing that we can
44:45.612 --> 44:47.032
in our minds say, well, that's a
44:47.032 --> 44:48.432
problem for the future. Right.
44:48.792 --> 44:50.152
We need to start like grappling
44:50.152 --> 44:51.372
with the fact that these impacts
44:51.372 --> 44:52.652
are happening now and we're
44:52.652 --> 44:54.252
seeing such stark implications
44:54.252 --> 44:54.642
right now.
44:54.761 --> 44:55.941
I think I'm the same way. I
44:55.941 --> 44:57.808
don't think I've even fully
44:58.059 --> 45:00.459
comprehended those videos we
45:00.459 --> 45:02.097
watched and, the loss of life.
45:02.267 --> 45:04.024
And like you said, they were
45:04.024 --> 45:05.664
still trying to recover workers
45:05.664 --> 45:07.749
in the hydro plant. and we also
45:07.749 --> 45:10.545
know that global media, Moves
45:10.555 --> 45:12.215
quickly to the next devastation,
45:12.215 --> 45:13.931
the next headline. so even for
45:13.931 --> 45:15.711
our conversation today, I know
45:15.711 --> 45:17.361
you and I, Alex, were actively
45:17.351 --> 45:20.224
looking for updates it wasn't as
45:20.224 --> 45:22.695
easy to find them. and then
45:22.695 --> 45:26.355
we're going to move over to AI
45:26.355 --> 45:28.135
data centers. and I think it's
45:28.135 --> 45:30.295
important to note that this
45:30.295 --> 45:33.250
topic isn't just going to be all
45:33.250 --> 45:34.770
negative about AI data centers.
45:35.270 --> 45:36.890
I think there is a balance of
45:36.890 --> 45:39.650
good AI and also consequential
45:39.650 --> 45:42.410
AI. Dad, you shared with me and
45:42.410 --> 45:43.850
I forwarded it to Alex an
45:43.850 --> 45:45.150
interesting New York Times
45:45.150 --> 45:47.530
article that actually put a
45:47.530 --> 45:50.410
positive light on AI and coastal
45:50.410 --> 45:50.727
regions. Yes.
45:52.171 --> 45:54.976
And didn't it indicate us AI
45:54.976 --> 45:58.036
like it would only take a day to
45:58.036 --> 46:02.113
be able to, adjust the waters in
46:02.113 --> 46:05.620
the coastal area to, uh, avoid
46:05.620 --> 46:07.695
erosion and to have actually,
46:07.695 --> 46:09.535
actually be building up
46:09.535 --> 46:10.105
sandbars-
46:10.266 --> 46:12.646
Yeah, so the article title is
46:12.646 --> 46:14.026
Rising Seas Are Gobbling Up
46:14.026 --> 46:17.086
Beaches Around the World. AI
46:17.086 --> 46:18.366
Might Restore Them. And for
46:18.229 --> 46:18.780
it'll
46:18.366 --> 46:19.546
our audience, that'll be linked
46:19.546 --> 46:22.675
in our show notes. Alex, this
46:22.675 --> 46:24.175
organization called Coastal
46:24.175 --> 46:25.956
Assembly. It's a company that
46:25.956 --> 46:28.149
originates from MIT Research.
46:28.263 --> 46:30.583
they're using AI and ocean
46:30.583 --> 46:32.823
current data to extend a beach
46:32.823 --> 46:34.359
in the Maldives, which we just
46:34.349 --> 46:36.953
talked about. And that beach,
46:36.953 --> 46:38.733
approximately 90 feet toward the
46:38.733 --> 46:41.093
ocean, and it's a 300-foot
46:41.093 --> 46:43.193
stretch. And the timeline my dad
46:43.193 --> 46:45.753
is talking about is that this AI
46:45.753 --> 46:47.977
model has helped reduce the time
46:47.977 --> 46:50.388
needed to assess coastal erosion
46:50.388 --> 46:52.768
and develop solutions from
46:52.768 --> 46:54.568
months and months of work to
46:54.568 --> 46:56.928
approximately one day. And now
46:56.928 --> 46:58.588
Coastal Assembly has grown so
46:58.588 --> 47:00.868
much that they're monitoring 90
47:00.868 --> 47:03.748
coastal sites, including more
47:03.748 --> 47:04.098
insulation. And here's a lot of
47:04.098 --> 47:05.748
solutions in the Maldives with
47:05.748 --> 47:08.708
projects also for the Bahamas,
47:08.708 --> 47:13.036
Boston Harbor, and isn't that
47:13.036 --> 47:15.816
fascinating? I really had no
47:15.816 --> 47:18.476
idea that that was that
47:18.476 --> 47:19.396
successful so quickly. Yeah.
47:20.253 --> 47:21.768
and it's always helpful you want
47:21.768 --> 47:23.408
to solve a problem, if you can,
47:23.614 --> 47:25.004
make a profit doing it.
47:25.346 --> 47:27.886
That is extremely true. That is
47:27.886 --> 47:28.317
extremely true.
47:30.834 --> 47:32.264
Which gets into the topic about
47:32.264 --> 47:32.904
corporate accountability.
47:35.594 --> 47:37.814
Again, weighing the good and bad.
47:38.702 --> 47:39.602
Of course, which I know you're
47:39.602 --> 47:41.664
an expert in, Meredith. you know,
47:41.664 --> 47:44.204
I feel like examples like these,
47:44.129 --> 47:48.419
I AI to be such a fascinating
47:48.419 --> 47:49.439
conversation. It's like, I feel
47:49.439 --> 47:50.879
like, especially these days, it
47:50.879 --> 47:52.799
almost to me feels like, it's
47:52.799 --> 47:54.659
like, okay, do we want to talk
47:54.659 --> 47:56.279
about, which as, as you
47:56.279 --> 47:57.119
mentioned at the beginning,
47:57.119 --> 47:58.019
Meredith, I actually am trying
47:58.019 --> 47:59.219
to avoid these days, like the
47:59.219 --> 48:01.099
apocalyptic scenarios of climate
48:01.099 --> 48:01.779
change. Or do you want to talk
48:01.779 --> 48:03.429
about the apocalyptic scenarios
48:03.429 --> 48:05.709
of AI? And sometimes I'm like,
48:05.709 --> 48:06.889
well, it'd be fun to think about
48:06.889 --> 48:09.231
like the positive things could
48:09.231 --> 48:10.531
happen and the way that society
48:10.531 --> 48:12.091
could be bettered by all of this
48:12.091 --> 48:13.471
rapid change if we're able to do
48:13.471 --> 48:15.311
it responsibly in a way that,
48:15.311 --> 48:16.952
that makes sense. and it's
48:16.952 --> 48:18.032
stories like that, or I feel
48:18.032 --> 48:19.552
like I, I' talked to some
48:19.552 --> 48:20.852
friends who work in the
48:20.852 --> 48:21.932
environmental space who have
48:21.932 --> 48:23.532
shared examples with me about
48:23.532 --> 48:25.732
particularly data and science
48:25.732 --> 48:27.672
applications where like new
48:27.672 --> 48:29.538
areas of, of research or data
48:29.538 --> 48:30.818
analysis have come about. That's
48:30.818 --> 48:32.298
really like helped support their
48:32.298 --> 48:33.803
work because of, know,
48:33.803 --> 48:36.085
advancements in AI. I tend to
48:36.085 --> 48:37.645
think of AI also sometimes a
48:37.645 --> 48:38.905
little separate, it's like, it's
48:38.905 --> 48:40.425
almost separated in my mind
48:40.425 --> 48:43.365
sometimes between like machine
48:43.365 --> 48:44.823
learning, know, scientific
48:44.823 --> 48:46.163
advancements. That's like a
48:46.163 --> 48:47.603
field that I think back to my
48:47.603 --> 48:49.303
time when I was an undergraduate
48:49.303 --> 48:51.023
at MIT and people were talking
48:51.023 --> 48:52.503
about it then and thinking about
48:52.503 --> 48:53.843
like, what's like the next
48:53.843 --> 48:55.579
generation of, of science and
48:55.579 --> 48:57.259
how do we think about how the
48:57.259 --> 48:59.177
future here. And then in my mind,
48:59.177 --> 49:00.517
that's a little bit separated
49:00.517 --> 49:02.197
from these large like language
49:02.197 --> 49:03.437
learning models that are all of
49:03.437 --> 49:04.897
a sudden kind of at the
49:04.897 --> 49:06.240
forefront of the discourse.
49:06.350 --> 49:09.017
Right. but certainly I do find
49:09.017 --> 49:10.697
it fascinating to read about,
49:10.697 --> 49:12.897
hear about examples of
49:12.673 --> 49:15.073
technology, technology, or for
49:15.073 --> 49:16.653
example, like extreme weather
49:16.653 --> 49:18.746
monitoring, better understanding
49:18.746 --> 49:22.761
of how, land or water is, being
49:22.761 --> 49:24.198
impacted at any point in time
49:24.198 --> 49:26.261
and how much, like water there
49:26.261 --> 49:27.901
are in freshwater reserves, like
49:27.901 --> 49:30.481
the, the uses of new types of
49:30.481 --> 49:31.681
machine learning that can help
49:31.681 --> 49:33.041
us as a society better
49:33.041 --> 49:34.821
understand those things. And it
49:34.821 --> 49:36.041
sounds like this article is, is
49:36.041 --> 49:36.651
one of those.
49:36.560 --> 49:38.801
Absolutely.you know, a report
49:38.801 --> 49:42.281
you shared with us, was the. By
49:42.281 --> 49:44.241
the United Nations University
49:44.241 --> 49:45.961
titled Environmental Costs of
49:45.961 --> 49:48.981
AI's Energy Use, Carbon, Water,
49:48.981 --> 49:52.087
and Land Footprint. I dived into
49:52.087 --> 49:54.726
all the research some of the
49:54.726 --> 49:56.626
data in science was hard for me
49:56.626 --> 49:58.918
to equate. So when I looked
49:58.918 --> 50:00.858
further into it, and I'll share
50:00.858 --> 50:02.618
a little bit about the research,
50:02.641 --> 50:04.914
it was saying that, know, if AI
50:04.914 --> 50:07.174
data centers continue at the
50:07.174 --> 50:09.846
speed they are currently at, and
50:09.846 --> 50:11.886
we're only going to see probably
50:11.886 --> 50:16.210
more rapid is right now, 945
50:16.210 --> 50:19.710
terawatts per hour are projected
50:19.710 --> 50:21.570
annual global electricity
50:21.570 --> 50:23.390
consumption of these data
50:23.390 --> 50:26.640
centers by 2030. Now, to give
50:26.640 --> 50:28.840
perspective, that's roughly the
50:28.840 --> 50:30.860
electricity used by the entire
50:30.860 --> 50:32.960
country of Japan. I just
50:32.960 --> 50:34.720
mentioned they're forced bathing,
50:34.720 --> 50:38.187
so this is a very big Or, to
50:38.187 --> 50:39.687
bring it to an American lens,
50:39.687 --> 50:42.467
that's about 85 million U. S.
50:42.467 --> 50:44.247
homes, which includes our
50:44.247 --> 50:46.847
heating, ACs, fridges, lights,
50:46.847 --> 50:50.007
TVs, cooking appliances, etc.
50:50.002 --> 50:53.722
also, these data centers will
50:53.722 --> 50:56.322
consume an estimated of 9.3
50:56.322 --> 50:59.122
trillion liters as an estimation
50:59.122 --> 51:01.102
of annual water footprint
51:01.102 --> 51:04.558
associated again by 2030. last
51:04.558 --> 51:05.458
but not least, when we look at
51:05.458 --> 51:08.658
the land usage, the estimate is
51:08.658 --> 51:13.018
14,500 square kilometers of
51:13.018 --> 51:15.731
projected land mass say needed
51:15.731 --> 51:19.121
by said AI centers. mean, I mean,
51:19.121 --> 51:21.391
I think a good question to ask
51:21.391 --> 51:22.331
both to ask both you, Alex, and
51:22.331 --> 51:25.775
my dad, is from a human rights
51:25.775 --> 51:26.875
perspective and environmental
51:26.875 --> 51:28.975
justice perspective, with
51:28.975 --> 51:30.755
communities that are being
51:30.755 --> 51:34.525
impacted by this, who pays for
51:34.525 --> 51:38.525
the build-out? Who pays the high
51:38.525 --> 51:40.465
cost of electricity? And also,
51:40.465 --> 51:42.805
how do we shield households from
51:42.805 --> 51:43.853
said implications?
51:44.700 --> 51:46.805
I mean, feel like that's the
51:47.291 --> 51:49.331
million-dollar, billion-dollar
51:49.331 --> 51:50.911
question these days, right,
51:50.911 --> 51:50.951
Meredith?
51:51.311 --> 51:52.841
I love that you just took it to
51:52.841 --> 51:54.521
billion, beca I just did the
51:54.521 --> 51:55.441
exact same thing as you. I was
51:55.441 --> 51:55.921
like, well, that's the
51:55.921 --> 51:56.741
million-dollar question. Then my
51:56.741 --> 51:58.221
brain was like, we're in
51:58.221 --> 51:58.859
billions now.
51:59.758 --> 52:01.948
Even more, right, which is, yeah,
52:01.948 --> 52:04.218
a bit energy, That's the
52:04.218 --> 52:06.329
question, you know, you have
52:06.329 --> 52:08.751
these data centers that require
52:08.751 --> 52:10.731
a lot of energy, that are being
52:10.731 --> 52:12.631
connected to grid systems. Are
52:12.631 --> 52:15.251
costs passed on to rate payers
52:15.251 --> 52:17.212
who then see electricity bills
52:17.212 --> 52:20.559
raised? Do you require data
52:20.559 --> 52:22.599
centers to bring their own
52:22.599 --> 52:24.759
energy to the grid and pay for
52:24.759 --> 52:26.379
it separately? How does that
52:26.379 --> 52:28.788
work if they do that? there a
52:28.788 --> 52:30.348
requirement that it's renewable
52:31.025 --> 52:33.305
Or is it gas plants? Is it
52:33.305 --> 52:34.925
diesel generators? Like, what is
52:34.925 --> 52:37.382
the mix of energy? Nucl, we
52:37.382 --> 52:38.242
talked about a little bit
52:38.242 --> 52:40.467
earlier, right? I think the
52:40.467 --> 52:42.287
question to be grappled with.That
52:42.287 --> 52:44.787
is a huge amount of energy that
52:44.787 --> 52:48.908
you mentioned, adding to our
52:48.898 --> 52:50.498
grid systems in a very short
52:50.508 --> 52:53.348
amount of time, right? And so I
52:53.348 --> 52:55.568
don't know, I can imagine a
52:55.568 --> 52:57.428
world where perhaps everything
52:57.428 --> 53:01.488
is required to be renewables and
53:01.488 --> 53:04.268
that actually then helps
53:04.268 --> 53:05.828
facilitate a clean energy
53:05.828 --> 53:07.248
transition. And you could
53:07.248 --> 53:08.988
imagine it in a way where
53:08.988 --> 53:10.648
communities have a lot of
53:10.648 --> 53:13.228
autonomy and decision-making
53:13.228 --> 53:14.548
authority that also helps
53:14.548 --> 53:16.631
facilitate a just transition.That
53:16.631 --> 53:17.731
you can imagine a lot of ways
53:17.731 --> 53:19.411
in which it doesn't really go
53:19.411 --> 53:20.761
down that path too, right?
53:21.286 --> 53:26.402
There's a lot of to this and the
53:26.402 --> 53:31.384
reactions of local where
53:31.022 --> 53:35.531
citizens public protests city
53:35.531 --> 53:38.202
councils, the local level in
53:38.202 --> 53:40.492
addition the states, but there
53:40.492 --> 53:42.982
are a number challenges that are
53:42.982 --> 53:46.692
taking place and protesting the
53:46.692 --> 53:49.292
location. And there's been
53:49.292 --> 53:52.612
marked success so far of their
53:52.612 --> 53:55.432
being able to defeat those
53:55.432 --> 53:57.804
efforts of... And not democratic
53:57.804 --> 54:00.610
or Republican. It's in for some
54:00.610 --> 54:03.947
of these the impact will be that
54:03.947 --> 54:06.642
it's gonna use all the water,
54:07.223 --> 54:09.803
it'd be devastating to their
54:09.803 --> 54:11.866
sewage systems and just, they,
54:11.866 --> 54:14.312
they don't the resources to be
54:14.312 --> 54:18.030
able to accommodate these. I
54:18.020 --> 54:20.180
think companies have been
54:20.180 --> 54:22.097
somewhat sensitive to uh,
54:22.107 --> 54:24.415
reaction of the public, to what
54:24.415 --> 54:26.500
they're attempting to do. But, I
54:26.500 --> 54:27.540
think it's fair to say it's
54:27.540 --> 54:29.300
probably gonna be a, a mixed
54:29.300 --> 54:29.350
result.
54:30.282 --> 54:33.038
Well, I wanted ask you about
54:33.193 --> 54:35.580
being an Ohioan such a key state
54:35.580 --> 54:37.732
for the midterms. when I was
54:37.732 --> 54:40.092
home recently, there were so
54:40.092 --> 54:42.592
many political ads on your TV
54:42.592 --> 54:44.452
and it was an onslaught of
54:44.452 --> 54:47.072
negativity and just really
54:47.072 --> 54:50.012
unattractive targeting opponents
54:49.783 --> 54:52.832
and but I do think a bipartisan
54:52.832 --> 54:54.353
issue that we've seen
54:55.040 --> 54:56.680
Republicans and Democrats come
54:56.680 --> 54:58.180
together on is these AI data
54:58.180 --> 55:00.040
centers. Do you feel like that's
55:00.040 --> 55:03.091
a big talking point on the
55:03.081 --> 55:04.421
ballot, dad, for the state of
55:04.421 --> 55:04.651
Ohio?
55:05.120 --> 55:05.720
Uh, no.
55:05.638 --> 55:06.878
are you answering for the state
55:06.878 --> 55:08.278
of Ohio or are you answering for
55:08.278 --> 55:09.193
the city of Cincinnati?
55:09.604 --> 55:13.424
Well, I'm basing it and.
55:13.606 --> 55:16.012
Television and, and reactions uh,
55:15.914 --> 55:18.274
I think the economy is what is
55:18.274 --> 55:20.592
the top ranked issue. uh,
55:20.592 --> 55:22.652
currently, a having said that
55:22.606 --> 55:26.062
it's the Bill Clinton line. it's
55:26.458 --> 55:27.958
basically the wallet based
55:27.958 --> 55:29.777
issues and mean, people being
55:29.777 --> 55:31.515
priced out the healthcare, And
55:31.515 --> 55:34.235
that's really scary for lots of
55:34.949 --> 55:36.629
it changes your whole
55:36.629 --> 55:37.703
perspective and life.
55:38.418 --> 55:40.217
I add that I think, to this
55:40.217 --> 55:43.318
point what hits the I think
55:43.318 --> 55:45.149
people throw around the word
55:45.149 --> 55:48.094
affordability quite a bit. in
55:48.094 --> 55:50.061
this context, perhaps there's
55:49.946 --> 55:51.826
like one link in the causal
55:51.826 --> 55:53.786
chain. Right. But certainly I
55:53.786 --> 55:55.566
think utility bills are like
55:55.566 --> 55:57.766
genuinely so high for so many
55:57.766 --> 56:00.335
people. like 20% of your income,
56:00.335 --> 56:01.895
15% of your income. Like that is
56:01.895 --> 56:03.575
a huge amount. Right.
56:04.009 --> 56:04.806
so high,
56:05.381 --> 56:06.361
especially for folks that are
56:06.361 --> 56:08.661
maybe on fixed incomes or
56:08.737 --> 56:10.117
dealing with multiple things at
56:10.117 --> 56:12.600
once. like utility bills are of
56:12.610 --> 56:14.040
course increasing generally,
56:14.040 --> 56:15.300
this is a broad generalization,
56:15.310 --> 56:17.440
but just year on year. And when
56:17.450 --> 56:19.650
you add in like additional costs
56:19.650 --> 56:21.030
because of something like data
56:21.030 --> 56:22.300
centers, right. I think that
56:22.300 --> 56:23.350
hits really hard right now.
56:23.890 --> 56:25.989
think, like home insurance,
56:25.989 --> 56:27.599
there are places in, in this
56:27.609 --> 56:30.243
country where home insurance is
56:30.243 --> 56:32.033
more and more expensive because
56:32.033 --> 56:33.503
of climate impacts, right. Like
56:33.493 --> 56:36.451
wildfires or sea level rise, or
56:36.216 --> 56:38.006
like those costs start to
56:38.006 --> 56:39.756
increase too. I don't know if
56:39.756 --> 56:41.626
you guys would agree, but I feel
56:41.626 --> 56:43.438
like, especially maybe in the
56:43.438 --> 56:46.839
last five ish years, things that
56:46.839 --> 56:48.919
previously maybe were steady and
56:48.919 --> 56:50.539
cost, even if they were high,
56:50.539 --> 56:52.507
are all of a sudden now like
56:52.507 --> 56:53.947
rising up on the like, well, th
56:53.947 --> 56:55.544
is really hitting my, my bottom
56:55.544 --> 56:56.824
line in my wallet. Right. It's
56:56.824 --> 56:58.244
like all these costs are
56:58.244 --> 56:59.384
increasing, everything's
56:59.384 --> 57:01.285
increasing. And I would say like
57:01.285 --> 57:03.025
circling back to climate change,whether
57:03.025 --> 57:05.325
it's energy or kind of
57:05.325 --> 57:07.625
adaptation side, you know, in
57:07.625 --> 57:08.855
terms of the insurance
57:08.855 --> 57:10.398
discussion, it's like starting
57:10.398 --> 57:11.860
to hit wallets in a way that
57:11.860 --> 57:13.160
maybe it wasn't like 10 years
57:13.160 --> 57:14.200
ago or 20 years ago.
57:14.189 --> 57:15.459
to give you an example, there
57:15.469 --> 57:17.039
was just an article, I think
57:17.049 --> 57:19.011
yesterday in, the local paper
57:19.011 --> 57:22.490
that Kroger, which is a, Grocery
57:22.240 --> 57:23.420
chain, but located,
57:23.420 --> 57:25.420
headquartered in Cincinnati,
57:25.938 --> 57:31.780
they have seen a 25% increase in
57:31.828 --> 57:35.288
people buying their name brand
57:35.288 --> 57:38.048
of like soup and things instead
57:38.048 --> 57:39.856
of getting the, you know, uh,
57:39.856 --> 57:42.074
Campbell's, to save money. And
57:42.074 --> 57:43.684
that's fairly dramatic, uh,
57:43.684 --> 57:44.914
change within just a month.
57:45.548 --> 57:47.690
Yeah. And like you said, they're
57:47.690 --> 57:50.208
also profit making business and
57:50.208 --> 57:51.638
they might see opportunity there.
57:51.779 --> 57:54.949
I've even seen a few, local and
57:55.696 --> 57:57.756
lawsuits that consumers are
57:57.756 --> 57:59.896
suing some of these grocery
57:59.896 --> 58:02.647
chains for price gouging Alex, I
58:02.647 --> 58:04.587
also thought of you with your
58:04.587 --> 58:06.247
time at the Biden Harris
58:06.247 --> 58:10.017
administration that last Trump
58:10.017 --> 58:12.397
removed the fuel economy
58:12.397 --> 58:14.017
standards that eliminate the
58:14.017 --> 58:16.157
electric vehicle mandate that
58:16.157 --> 58:17.997
Biden and Harris previously
58:17.997 --> 58:20.377
introduced. And within, I think
58:20.377 --> 58:22.357
it was like a week difference,
58:22.357 --> 58:24.097
the Trump administration also
58:24.097 --> 58:27.624
removed roughly 760,000
58:27.624 --> 58:29.624
enrollees from the Affordable
58:29.624 --> 58:33.119
Care Act. it's never linear
58:33.119 --> 58:34.819
progress, you know, it always
58:34.819 --> 58:36.389
goes up and down, ebb and flows.
58:37.252 --> 58:40.012
but when Alex and I were talking
58:40.012 --> 58:42.176
this um, came up with a really
58:42.176 --> 58:43.876
good quote on this topic of
58:43.876 --> 58:47.492
climate Let's not despair, let's
58:47.492 --> 58:50.874
repair, so on that note of
58:50.874 --> 58:53.654
repairing what we may be losing,
58:53.579 --> 58:55.938
for our audience who want to
58:55.938 --> 58:57.598
make a difference, but perhaps
58:57.598 --> 58:59.898
are overwhelmed by the scale of
58:59.898 --> 59:01.318
climate change. And as we
59:01.318 --> 59:03.158
mentioned, it's a lot of
59:03.158 --> 59:05.018
categories. Alex, where would
59:05.018 --> 59:06.808
you encourage them to begin?
59:07.430 --> 59:09.110
Yes, and I, and I still love
59:09.120 --> 59:10.680
this quote. I love a good rhyme
59:10.670 --> 59:12.560
that just bubbles up naturally
59:12.550 --> 59:13.950
and, you know, sticks, sticks
59:13.960 --> 59:15.723
with you. Um, I mean, it's just,
59:15.733 --> 59:17.163
it's so fair, right? Like we
59:17.163 --> 59:18.502
talked about the barrage of like
59:18.512 --> 59:19.812
negative information that's
59:19.802 --> 59:21.382
always coming at folks, the
59:21.392 --> 59:22.512
challenge of sifting through
59:22.512 --> 59:24.882
that information, staying locked
59:24.892 --> 59:27.517
in, you know, a, s who wants to
59:27.507 --> 59:29.138
work on, issues that you care
59:29.148 --> 59:30.288
about, but are also dealing with
59:30.278 --> 59:31.651
things in your own life. and
59:31.651 --> 59:32.921
climate change obviously is one
59:32.931 --> 59:34.706
where the conversation can, can
59:34.706 --> 59:36.546
quickly jump to catastrophe or
59:36.546 --> 59:38.236
feeling like hopelessness or
59:38.246 --> 59:39.747
it's not even worth like doing
59:39.757 --> 59:41.137
something because we've already
59:41.127 --> 59:42.405
lost. just,I feel like there's a
59:42.405 --> 59:43.535
few things that come to mind.
59:43.505 --> 59:45.295
One is always, you know, with,
59:45.055 --> 59:47.135
with climate change, I always
59:47.135 --> 59:48.835
remind myself, right? Like every
59:48.825 --> 59:50.699
single little bit matters. this
59:50.689 --> 59:52.079
is a whole of society problem.
59:52.179 --> 59:52.999
We were talking
59:52.921 --> 59:55.076
you're almost quoting Lockwood
59:55.076 --> 59:55.816
family saying.
59:56.519 --> 59:57.739
What's the Lockwood family
59:57.739 --> 59:57.889
saying?
59:58.243 --> 01:00:00.603
So when I taught the cumulative
01:00:00.603 --> 01:00:01.683
effects
01:00:01.556 --> 01:00:01.976
Uh-huh.
01:00:01.683 --> 01:00:03.663
doctrine of the Commerce clause
01:00:03.663 --> 01:00:04.843
in constitutional law.
01:00:05.386 --> 01:00:05.766
Okay.
01:00:05.761 --> 01:00:07.371
they always remembered it
01:00:07.371 --> 01:00:09.980
because I, I quoted the Lockwood
01:00:09.990 --> 01:00:11.900
family saying, which my father
01:00:11.910 --> 01:00:14.430
would say, every little bit
01:00:14.420 --> 01:00:16.650
counts, said the flea as he
01:00:16.650 --> 01:00:17.490
pissed in the ocean.
01:00:18.167 --> 01:00:20.107
Many of his former fellows and
01:00:20.107 --> 01:00:22.827
students mention that saying Out
01:00:22.827 --> 01:00:24.107
of all the things they remember
01:00:24.107 --> 01:00:25.707
learning from him, that saying
01:00:25.707 --> 01:00:26.477
has stuck.
01:00:26.883 --> 01:00:29.133
Stopped on the streets in, uh,
01:00:29.133 --> 01:00:31.033
Cincinnati former students
01:00:31.033 --> 01:00:32.233
coming up and that's the one
01:00:32.233 --> 01:00:33.103
thing they remember.
01:00:34.076 --> 01:00:37.301
I will look. Amongst the public
01:00:37.291 --> 01:00:39.341
discourse at the conference in
01:00:39.331 --> 01:00:41.681
Cincinnati next month. But, you
01:00:41.671 --> 01:00:44.151
know, the climate analogy is not,
01:00:44.251 --> 01:00:45.421
funnily enough, it's not so
01:00:45.431 --> 01:00:46.789
different, right? month. was a
01:00:46.779 --> 01:00:48.509
kid and I was, you know, forcing
01:00:48.499 --> 01:00:50.469
my family to recycle and
01:00:50.459 --> 01:00:51.589
dragging those recycling bins
01:00:51.579 --> 01:00:53.058
out to the street, that do
01:00:53.058 --> 01:00:55.078
anything to actually, like, stop
01:00:55.068 --> 01:00:56.718
global warming? Of course not,
01:00:56.718 --> 01:00:58.218
right? But that is, like, one
01:00:58.218 --> 01:01:00.628
action in, the bucket, you know,
01:01:00.628 --> 01:01:02.138
it is one bucket of action in,
01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:03.679
the ocean of action, right, that
01:01:03.669 --> 01:01:05.629
people need to be taking as part
01:01:05.629 --> 01:01:07.409
of a broader societal shift.
01:01:07.409 --> 01:01:08.149
Because this is an
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:09.864
intergenerational issue, it's,
01:01:09.864 --> 01:01:11.654
it is an issue that affects
01:01:11.644 --> 01:01:13.432
everybody. And, it's always
01:01:13.432 --> 01:01:15.632
worth remembering that it's not
01:01:15.622 --> 01:01:17.863
like, oh, if we haven't stopped
01:01:17.863 --> 01:01:19.033
global warming to a certain
01:01:19.033 --> 01:01:20.293
degree, then we've totally
01:01:20.283 --> 01:01:21.453
failed and there's no action
01:01:21.453 --> 01:01:22.843
worth taking, right? Like, every
01:01:22.853 --> 01:01:24.871
tenth of a degree matters. It,
01:01:24.871 --> 01:01:27.783
every life saved or, like, life
01:01:27.773 --> 01:01:29.183
improved matters at the end of
01:01:29.183 --> 01:01:31.563
the day. And I think holding on
01:01:31.563 --> 01:01:33.383
to that is part of being a part
01:01:33.383 --> 01:01:35.466
of long-term advocacy and, know,
01:01:35.456 --> 01:01:36.556
grappl with these issues that
01:01:36.566 --> 01:01:37.886
you might never see a resolution
01:01:37.876 --> 01:01:39.796
on, even the course of your own
01:01:39.796 --> 01:01:41.266
career or life. But, you know, I
01:01:41.276 --> 01:01:41.376
think, like, you know, I think
01:01:41.376 --> 01:01:42.206
you're going to be doing
01:01:42.206 --> 01:01:44.293
something You know, we'll look
01:01:44.293 --> 01:01:46.453
towards icons who have done
01:01:46.453 --> 01:01:47.771
generational work and know,
01:01:47.771 --> 01:01:48.991
watch what they've said and read
01:01:48.991 --> 01:01:50.591
their words and be inspired by
01:01:50.591 --> 01:01:53.346
that. Um, I will listen to, cool
01:01:53.346 --> 01:01:54.506
podcasts such as this one that
01:01:54.506 --> 01:01:55.815
talk about the solutions that
01:01:55.815 --> 01:01:57.415
are out there and what people
01:01:57.415 --> 01:01:58.635
are doing to meaningfully
01:01:58.635 --> 01:02:00.942
advance action. Um, I often look
01:02:00.942 --> 01:02:02.662
really locally too, right, and
01:02:02.662 --> 01:02:03.582
think, well, what are things I
01:02:03.582 --> 01:02:05.522
can change in my day-to-day life
01:02:05.522 --> 01:02:07.122
that make me feel like I'm
01:02:07.122 --> 01:02:08.962
taking a tangible action, even
01:02:08.962 --> 01:02:10.062
if I don't in this moment in
01:02:10.062 --> 01:02:10.892
time have the capacity to change.
01:02:11.272 --> 01:02:12.539
to, like start a new
01:02:12.539 --> 01:02:13.419
organization or try to
01:02:13.419 --> 01:02:15.259
single-handedly, you know, stop
01:02:15.259 --> 01:02:17.019
a global problem, right, which I
01:02:17.019 --> 01:02:18.759
think nobody can actually can do,
01:02:18.759 --> 01:02:20.852
of course. And so,to the folks
01:02:20.852 --> 01:02:22.392
that are wondering where to
01:02:22.392 --> 01:02:23.792
begin to your question, Meredith,
01:02:23.792 --> 01:02:25.689
it's like, you can do that makes
01:02:25.689 --> 01:02:26.769
you feel like you're having an
01:02:26.769 --> 01:02:27.889
impact and also brings you a
01:02:27.889 --> 01:02:29.534
little bit of joy, right? Like,
01:02:29.534 --> 01:02:31.454
like organizing a cleanup day on
01:02:31.454 --> 01:02:32.874
a local river. And even if
01:02:32.874 --> 01:02:34.054
you're the only one that shows
01:02:34.054 --> 01:02:35.274
up, then you can take that time
01:02:35.274 --> 01:02:36.534
to turn off your phone. And as
01:02:36.534 --> 01:02:38.196
we talked about earlier, know,
01:02:38.196 --> 01:02:39.476
spend some time in nature, like
01:02:39.476 --> 01:02:41.716
get involved in your local
01:02:41.716 --> 01:02:43.438
communities, um, and even local
01:02:43.438 --> 01:02:45.398
like policy or politics, and
01:02:45.398 --> 01:02:47.658
then just keep touching in with
01:02:47.658 --> 01:02:48.707
the, the community of folks that
01:02:48.707 --> 01:02:50.507
are working on this. It's, it's
01:02:50.507 --> 01:02:51.987
easier to feel like your kind of
01:02:52.692 --> 01:02:54.292
matters when you're also seeing
01:02:54.292 --> 01:02:55.572
everything else that's happening
01:02:55.572 --> 01:02:56.462
out there in the world. Exactly.
01:02:56.625 --> 01:02:59.075
Thank you, Alex. This has been
01:03:00.112 --> 01:03:02.957
Very appreciate sagacity
01:03:03.601 --> 01:03:06.081
insights. And we forward to
01:03:06.081 --> 01:03:07.801
seeing you in just a couple of
01:03:07.801 --> 01:03:08.096
weeks
01:03:08.429 --> 01:03:09.849
Thank you so much for having me.
01:03:09.591 --> 01:03:10.051
in
01:03:09.849 --> 01:03:10.129
I
01:03:10.051 --> 01:03:10.331
Cincinnati.
01:03:10.129 --> 01:03:11.569
feel like we touched only the
01:03:11.569 --> 01:03:13.078
surface a few things, and this
01:03:13.078 --> 01:03:14.818
could have been a week-long
01:03:14.818 --> 01:03:16.054
conversation. So thank you.
01:03:16.433 --> 01:03:19.096
Oh, absolutely. can't wait to
01:03:19.096 --> 01:03:20.696
see you in my hometown of Cincy
01:03:20.641 --> 01:03:21.171
very soon.
01:03:21.691 --> 01:03:23.071
I can't wait. It'll be my first
01:03:23.071 --> 01:03:24.351
time there. So I'm looking
01:03:24.351 --> 01:03:25.482
forward seeing the beauty of it.
01:03:25.653 --> 01:03:26.703
Terrific.
01:03:29.828 --> 01:03:31.738
One thing I hope you, our
01:03:31.738 --> 01:03:33.138
listeners, can take away from
01:03:33.138 --> 01:03:34.818
today's conversation is that
01:03:34.818 --> 01:03:36.498
there are many meaningful ways
01:03:36.498 --> 01:03:37.958
to contribute to climate
01:03:37.958 --> 01:03:39.555
solutions, whether through your
01:03:39.555 --> 01:03:41.495
own communities or by supporting
01:03:41.495 --> 01:03:43.475
the people and organizations
01:03:43.475 --> 01:03:44.145
doing this work.
01:03:44.911 --> 01:03:46.591
For those interested in learning
01:03:46.591 --> 01:03:49.131
more, we've included the
01:03:49.131 --> 01:03:51.671
research articles and videos and
01:03:51.671 --> 01:03:53.191
other resources discussed
01:03:53.191 --> 01:03:55.091
throughout this episode in our
01:03:55.091 --> 01:03:55.651
show notes.
01:03:56.707 --> 01:03:58.927
as always, if you enjoy Human
01:03:58.927 --> 01:04:00.667
Rights Conversations Across
01:04:00.667 --> 01:04:02.547
Generations podcast, please
01:04:02.547 --> 01:04:03.987
share with your family, friends,
01:04:03.987 --> 01:04:06.007
and extended community. We also
01:04:06.007 --> 01:04:07.667
welcome your suggestions for
01:04:07.667 --> 01:04:09.947
future guests and topics. Thank
01:04:09.947 --> 01:04:10.797
you for tuning in.
