speaker-0: Hello everyone and welcome to episode two of the Human Intelligence Podcast. You know the crack by now. Myself and Mark are discussing various topics in the world of human versus AI or the human connected to AI. We're not AI haters in any way, but there's lots of topics to discuss. And today, we obviously asked AI to list out a few options that we could discuss, hence the non-AI haters in us.
speaker-1: I mean you shouldn't be called hypocritical intelligence, not yeah.
speaker-0: It should be really. I named this when I was probably a bit more of an AI hater than I am now. And one of the topics that caught my eye was the whole concept of digital relationships versus ones that have been formed in person. And the theory that digital bonds are shallower than bonds formed in real life. And I think people of a certain generation, Mark and I are middle-aged blokes. And I think perhaps a lot of people of our sort of age, maybe that aren't in the digital space, would definitely go to they would default to definitely better to meet people in real life. Digital bonds are are a bit more shallow. You don't really get to know the person if you're not in person as such. But the research doesn't suggest that. It doesn't support that. Because what the research is saying, and I want to get Mark's take on this in a second, is that digital bonds have More touch points. And what I mean by that is, for instance, Mark and I have known each other for three years. We speak every month. We support each other's social media content. I know a lot more of what's going on in Mark's life than I perhaps do of people I've known for 40 years where who I don't speak to from for six months at a time. Because our relationship was formed in the physical world at school, and we're just not in that digital mindset of. checking in all the time and speaking all the time. So I don't know what's going on with them for for maybe a year at a time. Whereas Mark and I are in contact all the time in various different spaces. And I think that's what the research is saying in in in as a challenge to the concept that digital relationships are more shallow than physical ones. So Mark, what's your take on that based on on what you know and and and I guess how long we've known each other?
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean absolutely I would've been in that first camp of no, it's gotta be in person relationships are definitely stronger. But bringing that point is yeah, we've known each other for three years and we've never met and we might never meet just because of geographical, you're one end of the country and the other end. You know what I mean? And it's an absolute bollack to get ⁓ from from one end of the country to the other. So hopefully not. But yeah, that's a fascinating point that in You use the word, use the T word, I'm gonna have to use the T word. There's more touch points. Sorry, I'm just being a little bit sick of my mouth. ⁓
speaker-0: We've tried so hard to come up with another term for that.
speaker-1: It's not good. I've I'll I will still tie, but no. But there's so many the there's so many touch points. I've said again. I'm not going to say journey. I've just said journey, but I'm not going to. In that context. There's so many there's so many more touch points. So it's it's and I guess easier, more convenient digitally to to to check in with people over there. And I guess it's again it the old model of you you you spend more time with people you work with than you do with people that you don't because you're spending eight hours a day. So, you know, there's that as well, that you're that constant that constant contact, that constant checking in with a purpose. Whereas, yeah, it's got I've got to go all the way into town or I've got to go and draw and you know, it worthwhile doing, but yeah, you don't see your your your in-person friends as much as you do your your digital. And okay, there's a lot of people that will even their friends will be on the digital platforms as well. And they'll still but I'm not I mean my friends group's constantly on on the WhatsApp. ⁓ I don't do the WhatsApp. I'm I'm I can affirm and I will die on that hill. ⁓ much like Trevor and Simon in Duvaise, I don't do WhatsApp. so they don't they they they they message Mrs. T and she passes it on to me. ⁓ but yeah it's just it until you said that Andy I just like yeah you will get to know someone more like I say and it doesn't have to be face to like we're doing you know across video Just commenting, just messaging. All forms it can be all forms of touch in touch in base. God, that's even worse than that.
speaker-0: Do know what Lamar? I think this is different. And this is where I think that the the line kind of gets a bit blurry between digital and real life because many most of my older friends from school, college, whatever, they're not social media creators. They don't really spend much time on social. They're certainly not people that will comment and and support social media content. And because of the world we're in, we've met a lot of people over the years that do. And we've become friendly with those people, therefore, and because we have all of those all of that contact throughout the week, we feel can more connected with those people because we support them, they support us and it and a friendship bond ⁓ forms. But coming back to my point, because they're not creators, we've grown, even though there's there's they would still be classed as my oldest friends, we've massively grown apart. And we might see each other once or twice a year, but we just don't have that type of relationship where we're we're checking in all the time. Whereas the relationships that are initially formed digitally that can then sometimes evolve into personal ones as well. There's lots of people that I've met online through my work that I've then met in person. ⁓ obviously the the Lego crew that we have that we would obviously love for you to be part of, but again, geographically it's not possible.
speaker-1: You have to carry it in a tablet or something like that. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a relationship that started in online, has evolved to in person. We're now very, very good friends, and I'm probably closer with them. I know more about what's going on in their their lives than I do people that I've known for 40 years. So I do I think that the relationship ⁓ that was what I was gonna say. I've nailed it. Where I was going with that is that I think you can
speaker-1: There it is.
speaker-0: Someone you could support someone online through their social media content, whether you follow them, they follow you, mutual situation, for years. And your only contact with them is comments. I think that relationship takes a massive leap forward when you start doing this type of thing. Because you're physically talking, you're physically hearing, you're understanding what you know. I've I've commented on people's content for a year or two, or vice versa. And then I've gone to speak to them. I've gone, I didn't know you you were from wherever.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes.
speaker-0: Even for you, like I didn't know when b until we spoke that you were Scottish. I didn't know that one of our clients was was from one of the Eastern European countries. This was a way back. And I I didn't know that until and it and that connects you so much ⁓ on a deeper level than just typing out a few comments every now and again. That
speaker-1: Yeah. That I mean, yeah, I've had that a lot. I get that a lot when I didn't know you were Scottish. Well I thought the big ginger beard might have given it away. But you know, the Hawaiian shirts I get must must throw people off. ⁓ but yeah, there's that it's almost like the comment in that bit's it's like the small chat that you know that when you first meet someone, you kinda got to go through this back and forth. How was the weather? How was your journey? How was this? How was that? It's kind of that bit's bypass and sometimes that bit and then you can jump straight and go, Right, let's just speak about stuff that we want to speak about. Let's get to know each other, you know. on that kind of deeper level. but yeah. This is this is opening my eyes massively. Because
speaker-0: It does change things. I think and this is where the whole deep versus shallow thing, I wouldn't say that our relationship is shallow. Yet we've never met. Nope. If our relationship was based purely on commenting on social media posts and the odd WhatsApp message, I would say that's shallow.
speaker-1: No.
speaker-0: I would say that there's no there's no real depth to that relationship. We've not really had any form of connection. But even though this isn't physical, we you and I have never actually been able to walk up to one another and shake each other's hands. I certainly wouldn't put this relationship in the category of shallow because we've done this for three years.
speaker-1: Yeah. And we've talked about a lot. ⁓ many subjects, not just business related, you know. That's where the whole thing kind of started why we connected in the first place, 'cause I was looking for someone that that could accurately, you know, give out my tone of voice, sound like me. ⁓ social media. ⁓ so that that was important. And then yeah, we're like minded. But we're different enough that it that it it works as well. But yeah, I mean If it was down to just physical meeting, that wouldn't is form as quickly, potentially. I think looking at the I think you need a a balance of both. I think th in this term, technology is actually helping relationship building or strengthening relationship building. An example I'm going to use, and we can all relate to this, ⁓ is lockdown. I saw my friends of many, many years more during lockdown over Zoom than I did previously meeting them, meeting up with them. Cause that's the thing, it was everybody's busy. We all are. It's not a great excuse, but everybody is. Everybody's got families. Everybody's got stuff to do. Everybody's got adulting to do. You know? That meeting up on a weekend and getting everybody coordinated. But Saturday night, send out a Zoom link. Everybody sits down in their own home and gets I mean, it was every weekend. And it was like, yeah, lockdown was dreadful at the time, but it was stuff like that. It was like and did that deepen our relationships? Probably did. You know what I mean? Even though I've known most of the people for for 30 years. You know what I mean? A lot of that simple technology. Okay, simple. But you know what I mean? It's just that on screen chatting to them. It didn't matter. And I I guess I don't know. I'm probably not unique in this, but regardless if I'm communicating with someone, I ⁓ I I picture it that I'm actually speaking to them face to face.
speaker-0: If if got an imagination, you can do that. And and and I've got ⁓ you know, coming back to your point there, ⁓ another example of this, I worked with lots and lots of people in offices and in retail stores all my life. So before I went self-employed, twenty-six years worked with loads of people. And it's easy to think and I look back and I think I enjoyed being around people, bouncing ideas. I I I love the team camaraderie. But but What would happen when I think back, something would happen within some of the team and I'd I'd something would pop up on my social media. Now, very rarely did my staff that were part of my team add me on Facebook or Instagram, whatever, because they didn't want their manager fucking seeing their shit. Plus they were like half my age. But every now and again someone would show me something or it would pop up because someone else had liked it and and I'd see it. And I'd see a side of them that I I did not know because In work, you think you know people, but you you know the work version. You don't really know them. Yeah. So actually, the people that probably followed them on those s on those outlets, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, whatever it was they were on, where they were really giving away themselves and parts of their own lives, they probably knew them better than I did. And I sat with them every day for ten years. Do you know what mean? I wasn't getting the real version.
speaker-1: Yeah. That and I'm yeah, that's just the point I was gonna go to the real version of it. And that's what's this is the and again, it is we see and sometimes you especially social media or or digitalist i is is seen as a bad thing, as the bad side. So you can give your opinion freely and there's ⁓ no I'd say there's no there's no outcome, but there is. There's the consequences to that. But if we flip it in a positive way, that people open up are more themselves. So you get to know someone more than you would if they were face to face because they would always put on that kind of front or that face or that you know I mean. And no, that doesn't have to be video, because again that might still be too, but in a text box or a comment box or a an email or a text message or whatever it is. ⁓ I know, show me age, text message, old school. ⁓ D is that helping relationships? Is that ⁓ helping make relationships deeper because of that? Because there's that extra level of protection almost that they don't have to put on a front because they're not actually physically there. You know what I mean? Do you like you say there's a work version of you? We all have different versions of ourselves depending who we're talking to. You know what I mean? And it depends on what time we're talking to them. If it's the first meeting, we'll be a different time. I mean, now I'm fifty one, I'm kind of like This is me g I'm I've I think I'm only one version. You know what I mean? All the time. ⁓ probably slightly filtered. Because with friends on Zoom with a few shandies in, the l the language is gonna be more colourful. I'm Scottish. You know, it's gonna be. ⁓
speaker-0: I think that's probably something we should have said at the start of these episodes that we we we're not gonna necessarily hold back. No if you're if you're allergic to swearing, then you should probably turn off. ⁓ not that we're gonna be effing and blinding in in every single sentence, but in context, sometimes the odd the odd F bomb is ⁓ is required.
speaker-1: In context. It's I I'm self editing quite heavily. And I don't want to l lean into a s ⁓ Scottish stereotype, but
speaker-0: I j and again this is this is an interesting topic for this for this episode actually because I went out the other night for a curry with some lads that I I ⁓ have stayed in contact with since I left my last place. And I've been gone from there nearly five years. And there's four of us. Three of us left around the same sort of time. ⁓ I'm the only one that works for myself. And then the last guy left about seven or eight months ago. And went to work with one of the other guys of the four of us. So two of them now work together, and the other one works for someone else, and I obviously work for myself. And the moment I step into their company, I go back into Andy in the office mode. Every other word is fuck. And all four of us are just as bad as each other. We are a nightmare. We're loud, we're brash, and but do you know what? And this is the interesting thing. I see them probably three times a year for that curry. We always revert back to what it was like working in where we worked and what's going on with that place now because it's now been sold on, and all the we talk about the team members and what's happened to them. We're always in the past tense, or a lot of the time we're in the past tense because that is our relationship. Because we don't connect online in any way. They're they're not social media creators, they're not commenters, they don't support content of each other, they're they're very distracted or distanced from that world. We don't necessarily live in the now because we haven't we haven't learnt about what's going on. Whereas my relationships that I've got with people that perhaps I connect with more on a daily basis, they buff a bit more and we don't always harp on about the past.
speaker-1: Yeah. Evolve and
speaker-0: And I I do find that with my friend groups that I don't have a digital connection with and it's and it's based on relationships from years ago in person.
speaker-1: I mean, yeah, I mean that that ye I absolutely right. You go back to the default setting. It's where you last, you know, save point and you're like, right, that's what I was back then. So that's how I can I I mean, it's I it's I guess it comes down to communication. How's the best way of communicating with the with the people that you've got in front of you? You know what I mean? And you I guess that's where the adaptation comes in is I want to be understood, I want to be liked, I want to be, you know, whatever it is. So adapt with the way I'm communicating with these people. You know what I mean? And is that fundamentally changing it? I think there's obviously especially when you're younger and stuff like that and or or in business, you you end up putting up front on it. It's a completely different version of you. ⁓ you talk about quite a lot with you know, you're one this version in the office, but online you're this version. You know what I mean? It's it just makes life a hell easier for you, just those the same. But I think there's different flavours, there's different levels. You dial up and dial down depending on who you're with. I think it all seems to feel like it's coming from the same person. Like you say, that's how you communicate best with the people you work with because you've got nothing else in common apart from work. But if you knew if you met them more regularly, whether that's and I think we're getting to the point where it doesn't matter how you meet people, it's it's the t the amount of times that you meet them that your the relationship evolves because you learn more about each other. And that just grows. But if you don't, just go back to the last time you you you you were all in each other's company, which was just default. Speak about work, speak about people used to work with, jokes used to speak about in the language adjusts to suit more swearing, less swearing. You know. Certainly when I meet up with my friends, I speak about ten times faster than I was speaking right now. Again, a little bit of a conscious effort to slow my speech pattern down. When I get excited and animated, then it it's and I've noticed that in the videos that I put out that it starts sp so subtitles may become a thing down the line.
speaker-0: When when I've edited videos with you in, it throws the subtitle software that I use literally like when I when I subtitle my own videos, I probably only have to change one word in an entire video. If that, sometimes it gets it nail it nails it first time. It's just maybe if there's a bit of a mumble. With yours, it's like I've got it set to English and I've put in a Spanish video. Because it's like And I have to almost rewrite every other word because it's not picked it up.
speaker-1: It's it's wrong, I I serve my applied in that.
speaker-0: It can't deal with accents. ⁓ okay, let me give you this example then. This is this is also relevant. So last night I went to the local the market and meetup networking event that obviously we've been sponsoring for we have now stopped sponsoring that because it served its purpose. It it got me out of the house, got me off my ass, and f helped me build the habit of going every two months and being among humans.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: And actually getting off my house and and not being isolated at home on my own all the time. And and I really, really enjoy it. Problem. Two years ago, that event was probably probably had about 60 people each time. And when I did my talk in November twenty four, it was a packed house. And it was brilliant. Loved it. Loved it. ⁓ since the l in the last 18 months, the numbers have massively dwindled. And I would say last night was probably a record low. There were 27 people signed on, probably about 24, 25 turned up. Now, bearing in mind, three of those are the two hosts, ⁓ Helen and James, who are brilliant, me, and the speaker. So there's probably only 20, 20 people that have actually come to be in ⁓ in amongst it. And where I've been for the last six in a row, I start to I really noticed a big gap of people that I've seen turn up a few times and then then not bother for the last two or three. And we were trying to sort of put our finger on it. Is it across the whole of TMM in all the regions? Is it that potentially there are now more networking events and people have have spread out? Or are we are we in a position and Lynn's even mentioned this? She said post-pandemic, there was a real an extended period of time where people felt they needed to get out more. There was still a massive amount of working from home. Yeah. As we've seen in the last year, lots of offices and and businesses now are pushing their staff back into offices. Yeah. So the isolation isn't there like it used to be. And now people are getting home from the office after a long day and going, ⁓ fuck going out and fucking socializing. I just want to chill out. Whereas when they were in isolation they probably felt like they wanted to. Do you think that's a cause?
speaker-1: I mean that's a valid cause, I think. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 'Cause we were all again, using lockdown. When lockdown came out, it was like, let's get out and meet people. That was now it was a 'cause it was a novelty. It was something we hadn't done and we're we're we're we're desperate for it. Yeah, but now it's kind of finding that equilibrium and imbalance of now more people are going back to work. There's not so much working from from home. That yes, you're like, Well, I don't have to make an effort 'cause I'm seeing people all the time, whether it's on the commute, in the office, you know, I don't want to to be going out. To things like that. I guess well, we're we're different because we do work at home and we are in that that bubble of itself. So we we can see the benefit of well, I want to go out, I should be going out, I need to. There's that motivation to go out. Maybe you don't want to, because it means putting on socks and proper clothes and and ⁓ just okay. I mean somebody needs to do that. Can we have an event where we can just whatever we're wearing, we just go turn up and this you know, you've got to put on. Grown up clothes and or clothes will stop. I mean it's clothes, yes. I mean human decency. I mean
speaker-0: It's cloaked. Wore this because I I got up and did a bit of a talk at the end of the speaker's talk to thank everyone and and basically explain that those type of events you need to go three or four times in a row for the magic of it to really click. Yeah. And that's why I've sponsored it to force me to do that. And it was a really expensive way of building that habit, and I don't recommend people doing that, but it was the best money I ever spent because now I'm in that frame of mind. But would you you also say there's an argument that and again, this is something that Linz and I discussed, there's a lot more people over the last two years that have had small businesses fail and they've gone back into employment. And if you're in an employed role, you're not as motivated to spend your time at networking events because you don't really need to 'cause you're not part of your job role anymore.
speaker-1: No, I mean that yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I worked in places I did zero networking, it wasn't until I started working for myself that networking became a thing. ⁓ and yeah, I mean I think there's a side of it as well as y and it was interesting what you said that you sponsored it as a motivation to go along to it. 'Cause I've spent this money. I there's I've I've a I've ⁓ I've can apportion that value to it because I've bought it, so I'm going to use it. I think where a lot of these networking fall down is obviously when they're free, is people go, ⁓ yeah, that sounds good at the time and sign up and go it's free, so I'm not I'm not missing out on anything. I'm not out of pocket if I don't go. So it's not a motivation. So absolutely, yes, sponsoring something is an expense. But again it comes back to and it's not just networking, it's if there's a military value to it then you we ⁓ we we we see it's mu is more valuable. I've got to get my money's worth out of it. But yeah, there's definitely that That that side of it, if you work for yourself at home, you're probably more inclined to do networking.
speaker-0: It it comes back to our point about the whole shallow relationships thing. The more times I go to that event, the more the deeper the relationships become with the regulars that go. And I tell you what, and I said this to the to the group last night, I've had life-changing conversations with people in that networking group that have changed my view on elements in my business, particularly around AI, funnily enough.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And I wouldn't have had those conversations if I hadn't established those relationships with those individuals. Do you know what I mean? Which sometimes you go. So I think, again, back to the whole personal versus digital, I think there is an argument in that case that that that insight that I've gathered doesn't happen if I don't make the effort to go and and have that personal interaction in that group situation.
speaker-1: the yeah, effort isn't, I mean there's always everything's effort. But I think it what I'm I'm looking at is what's connecting all these things is it's there's effort to go and do them, but there's no effort needed to put on a version of yourself. You can just be yourself in all these things. And I think that's the it works, you've kind of got to be in work mode. I think if there's definitely a different version of you in your life, it's work you, which is completely different from any other version. of you. I think every other version outside work is just a variation on a theme. Did you I had I I had a work me, yeah, yeah. yeah, it was very vast it probably was. I mean I I and I I definitely carried that over when we set up Flux. Is there was a work version of me. There was very much a version of me that was front facing that was nothing like me.
speaker-0: Q.
speaker-1: ⁓ and it was exhausting. And that was a definitely a big turning point in business like, no, can we just be ourselves? And everybody comes to it and everybody tells you that. But y I think you've got to find it yourself. But you it's come to you. You're trying to be something that people you think people want you to be. Mm. And I think it's something you learn, especially when you're younger, you always go through that. And I think businesses are the same. You're trying to be what people you think. You're trying to second guess what what would people want to see. And if you get that point when you go, I'm just me. Take me or leave me. Yeah.
speaker-0: my barrier my barrier to probably doing better in my career than I did and and I don't get me wrong I did okay did got to some decent positions but I think one of my barriers to going further than I did probably particularly in retail was that I didn't I didn't have a work me so I was an arsehole in work and outside work. That was
speaker-1: I some would argue you still are. I mean I am.
speaker-0: And that's what I mean. And and the and I was a pain in the arse. I was difficult to manage. I spoke my mind. Yes. And and to a lot of and and and most of the bosses that I worked for r respected the fact that they'd get honesty out of me, even if they sometimes didn't want it. But unfortunately I was I was rubbish at playing a game that potentially would see me progress beyond where I was because when I saw something I didn't like or when I saw something that I felt could be done better or that was potentially causing the the the company a an issue, the politics of it I just couldn't I couldn't deal with. And I I couldn't hold back on telling people what I thought of those politics.
speaker-1: It politics are massive. Yeah, that's why I couldn't go back. I don't think. I couldn't deal with that. And possibly that's a reason why when you go work for someone, it's you're done with people politics that you just don't want to get involved in any that shape or form. So you apply that to every relationship or any group of people who think, ⁓ I don't want deal with the the game. I don't want to play the game of, you know. ⁓ but yeah, I think definitely there needs to be a balance. So I think that's what I've kind of come out. I went in from the intro of ⁓ no, digital relationships are gonna be much less deep, they're gonna be much more shallow than physical but you know what I mean I I think a a healthy balance of both. Again, technology's there and and we're and as we always said we're not anti AI, we're not anti technology. It's just when it's used for good purposes, I think then it then it's okay. yeah, I mean In my own work, I I there's very little of my clients are local that I can actually physically go and see. So that hasn't really had a massive impact. I thought at the the time it would, and I was very staunch in saying, right, well, if we've got to have that first meeting's got to be in person because it really needs to get that kind of vibe and feel, but but that wasn't possible. You learn to adapt how you pick up on and how you get that vibe. It takes a bit more effort, but You can get it through a screen.
speaker-0: Mm. I I agree. Well, we're we're living proof of that. well it seems like by the end of this episode, like you said, you've gone into it thinking definitely the human ⁓ interaction is is for the win. Nothing else comes close to it. But the reality is I think both of us have probably come to the end of this and we'd be interested to hear what people think, whether they agree with us, whether they're on the fence, whether they swing one way or the other. ⁓ it seems like both of us have come out of it thinking there does need to be a kind of combination of both to especially today where we are so busy and there isn't necessarily that time being made ⁓ or the effort being made to see each other in person like there perhaps used to be when we didn't have other options. So Yeah. ⁓ thank you very, very much for listening. If you are still listening, if you are still with us or if you're watching. And ⁓ we didn't do ⁓ we didn't do a ⁓ An attire change.
speaker-1: We didn't, so see if anybody picks up on that. I might start moving stuff behind me just to see if ⁓ people are spot the difference. Yeah.
speaker-0: I could I couldn't ⁓ we should do a spot the difference.
speaker-1: Yeah, see if anything's been moved or ch I mean mine's gonna be changing because mine's still in fluck streamless plug.
speaker-0: Yeah, mine's in program. We shouldn't be discussing too much about this because that's for another podcast.
speaker-1: ⁓ that we ⁓ mm shamel another shameless plug.
speaker-0: On the Brick Building Dad YouTube channel coming very soon. ⁓ we still need a name for that podcast, by the way, if you've got ⁓ any ⁓ any suggestions. ⁓ I also need suggestions on something that Mark and I could do in every episode that's a little bit of a game, a little bit of an interactive thing that people can get involved with when they're listening and and ⁓ viewing that ⁓ yeah, it's just a bit of fun. And your spot the difference idea reminded me of that. So we need a few suggestions on perhaps what we could do. For a little bit of a game that happens in every ⁓ no. It needs to just be a
speaker-1: Nothing too energetic, please. ⁓ No, no. I don't think it's just It is. But I think they're right in the comment based on this one is would you rather just watch us on screen or would you go for a pint with us? Yeah. So what one would you get more value out of?
speaker-0: Or would you rather do both? Rather do both.
speaker-1: Or do both. As long as you're buying, I'm I'm easy.
speaker-0: Thank you. Thank you very much for listening, watching every guy everyone, and we will see you next time.
speaker-1: Cheers guys.
speaker-1: I mean you shouldn't be called hypocritical intelligence, not yeah.
speaker-0: It should be really. I named this when I was probably a bit more of an AI hater than I am now. And one of the topics that caught my eye was the whole concept of digital relationships versus ones that have been formed in person. And the theory that digital bonds are shallower than bonds formed in real life. And I think people of a certain generation, Mark and I are middle-aged blokes. And I think perhaps a lot of people of our sort of age, maybe that aren't in the digital space, would definitely go to they would default to definitely better to meet people in real life. Digital bonds are are a bit more shallow. You don't really get to know the person if you're not in person as such. But the research doesn't suggest that. It doesn't support that. Because what the research is saying, and I want to get Mark's take on this in a second, is that digital bonds have More touch points. And what I mean by that is, for instance, Mark and I have known each other for three years. We speak every month. We support each other's social media content. I know a lot more of what's going on in Mark's life than I perhaps do of people I've known for 40 years where who I don't speak to from for six months at a time. Because our relationship was formed in the physical world at school, and we're just not in that digital mindset of. checking in all the time and speaking all the time. So I don't know what's going on with them for for maybe a year at a time. Whereas Mark and I are in contact all the time in various different spaces. And I think that's what the research is saying in in in as a challenge to the concept that digital relationships are more shallow than physical ones. So Mark, what's your take on that based on on what you know and and and I guess how long we've known each other?
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean absolutely I would've been in that first camp of no, it's gotta be in person relationships are definitely stronger. But bringing that point is yeah, we've known each other for three years and we've never met and we might never meet just because of geographical, you're one end of the country and the other end. You know what I mean? And it's an absolute bollack to get ⁓ from from one end of the country to the other. So hopefully not. But yeah, that's a fascinating point that in You use the word, use the T word, I'm gonna have to use the T word. There's more touch points. Sorry, I'm just being a little bit sick of my mouth. ⁓
speaker-0: We've tried so hard to come up with another term for that.
speaker-1: It's not good. I've I'll I will still tie, but no. But there's so many the there's so many touch points. I've said again. I'm not going to say journey. I've just said journey, but I'm not going to. In that context. There's so many there's so many more touch points. So it's it's and I guess easier, more convenient digitally to to to check in with people over there. And I guess it's again it the old model of you you you spend more time with people you work with than you do with people that you don't because you're spending eight hours a day. So, you know, there's that as well, that you're that constant that constant contact, that constant checking in with a purpose. Whereas, yeah, it's got I've got to go all the way into town or I've got to go and draw and you know, it worthwhile doing, but yeah, you don't see your your your in-person friends as much as you do your your digital. And okay, there's a lot of people that will even their friends will be on the digital platforms as well. And they'll still but I'm not I mean my friends group's constantly on on the WhatsApp. ⁓ I don't do the WhatsApp. I'm I'm I can affirm and I will die on that hill. ⁓ much like Trevor and Simon in Duvaise, I don't do WhatsApp. so they don't they they they they message Mrs. T and she passes it on to me. ⁓ but yeah it's just it until you said that Andy I just like yeah you will get to know someone more like I say and it doesn't have to be face to like we're doing you know across video Just commenting, just messaging. All forms it can be all forms of touch in touch in base. God, that's even worse than that.
speaker-0: Do know what Lamar? I think this is different. And this is where I think that the the line kind of gets a bit blurry between digital and real life because many most of my older friends from school, college, whatever, they're not social media creators. They don't really spend much time on social. They're certainly not people that will comment and and support social media content. And because of the world we're in, we've met a lot of people over the years that do. And we've become friendly with those people, therefore, and because we have all of those all of that contact throughout the week, we feel can more connected with those people because we support them, they support us and it and a friendship bond ⁓ forms. But coming back to my point, because they're not creators, we've grown, even though there's there's they would still be classed as my oldest friends, we've massively grown apart. And we might see each other once or twice a year, but we just don't have that type of relationship where we're we're checking in all the time. Whereas the relationships that are initially formed digitally that can then sometimes evolve into personal ones as well. There's lots of people that I've met online through my work that I've then met in person. ⁓ obviously the the Lego crew that we have that we would obviously love for you to be part of, but again, geographically it's not possible.
speaker-1: You have to carry it in a tablet or something like that. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a relationship that started in online, has evolved to in person. We're now very, very good friends, and I'm probably closer with them. I know more about what's going on in their their lives than I do people that I've known for 40 years. So I do I think that the relationship ⁓ that was what I was gonna say. I've nailed it. Where I was going with that is that I think you can
speaker-1: There it is.
speaker-0: Someone you could support someone online through their social media content, whether you follow them, they follow you, mutual situation, for years. And your only contact with them is comments. I think that relationship takes a massive leap forward when you start doing this type of thing. Because you're physically talking, you're physically hearing, you're understanding what you know. I've I've commented on people's content for a year or two, or vice versa. And then I've gone to speak to them. I've gone, I didn't know you you were from wherever.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes.
speaker-0: Even for you, like I didn't know when b until we spoke that you were Scottish. I didn't know that one of our clients was was from one of the Eastern European countries. This was a way back. And I I didn't know that until and it and that connects you so much ⁓ on a deeper level than just typing out a few comments every now and again. That
speaker-1: Yeah. That I mean, yeah, I've had that a lot. I get that a lot when I didn't know you were Scottish. Well I thought the big ginger beard might have given it away. But you know, the Hawaiian shirts I get must must throw people off. ⁓ but yeah, there's that it's almost like the comment in that bit's it's like the small chat that you know that when you first meet someone, you kinda got to go through this back and forth. How was the weather? How was your journey? How was this? How was that? It's kind of that bit's bypass and sometimes that bit and then you can jump straight and go, Right, let's just speak about stuff that we want to speak about. Let's get to know each other, you know. on that kind of deeper level. but yeah. This is this is opening my eyes massively. Because
speaker-0: It does change things. I think and this is where the whole deep versus shallow thing, I wouldn't say that our relationship is shallow. Yet we've never met. Nope. If our relationship was based purely on commenting on social media posts and the odd WhatsApp message, I would say that's shallow.
speaker-1: No.
speaker-0: I would say that there's no there's no real depth to that relationship. We've not really had any form of connection. But even though this isn't physical, we you and I have never actually been able to walk up to one another and shake each other's hands. I certainly wouldn't put this relationship in the category of shallow because we've done this for three years.
speaker-1: Yeah. And we've talked about a lot. ⁓ many subjects, not just business related, you know. That's where the whole thing kind of started why we connected in the first place, 'cause I was looking for someone that that could accurately, you know, give out my tone of voice, sound like me. ⁓ social media. ⁓ so that that was important. And then yeah, we're like minded. But we're different enough that it that it it works as well. But yeah, I mean If it was down to just physical meeting, that wouldn't is form as quickly, potentially. I think looking at the I think you need a a balance of both. I think th in this term, technology is actually helping relationship building or strengthening relationship building. An example I'm going to use, and we can all relate to this, ⁓ is lockdown. I saw my friends of many, many years more during lockdown over Zoom than I did previously meeting them, meeting up with them. Cause that's the thing, it was everybody's busy. We all are. It's not a great excuse, but everybody is. Everybody's got families. Everybody's got stuff to do. Everybody's got adulting to do. You know? That meeting up on a weekend and getting everybody coordinated. But Saturday night, send out a Zoom link. Everybody sits down in their own home and gets I mean, it was every weekend. And it was like, yeah, lockdown was dreadful at the time, but it was stuff like that. It was like and did that deepen our relationships? Probably did. You know what I mean? Even though I've known most of the people for for 30 years. You know what I mean? A lot of that simple technology. Okay, simple. But you know what I mean? It's just that on screen chatting to them. It didn't matter. And I I guess I don't know. I'm probably not unique in this, but regardless if I'm communicating with someone, I ⁓ I I picture it that I'm actually speaking to them face to face.
speaker-0: If if got an imagination, you can do that. And and and I've got ⁓ you know, coming back to your point there, ⁓ another example of this, I worked with lots and lots of people in offices and in retail stores all my life. So before I went self-employed, twenty-six years worked with loads of people. And it's easy to think and I look back and I think I enjoyed being around people, bouncing ideas. I I I love the team camaraderie. But but What would happen when I think back, something would happen within some of the team and I'd I'd something would pop up on my social media. Now, very rarely did my staff that were part of my team add me on Facebook or Instagram, whatever, because they didn't want their manager fucking seeing their shit. Plus they were like half my age. But every now and again someone would show me something or it would pop up because someone else had liked it and and I'd see it. And I'd see a side of them that I I did not know because In work, you think you know people, but you you know the work version. You don't really know them. Yeah. So actually, the people that probably followed them on those s on those outlets, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, whatever it was they were on, where they were really giving away themselves and parts of their own lives, they probably knew them better than I did. And I sat with them every day for ten years. Do you know what mean? I wasn't getting the real version.
speaker-1: Yeah. That and I'm yeah, that's just the point I was gonna go to the real version of it. And that's what's this is the and again, it is we see and sometimes you especially social media or or digitalist i is is seen as a bad thing, as the bad side. So you can give your opinion freely and there's ⁓ no I'd say there's no there's no outcome, but there is. There's the consequences to that. But if we flip it in a positive way, that people open up are more themselves. So you get to know someone more than you would if they were face to face because they would always put on that kind of front or that face or that you know I mean. And no, that doesn't have to be video, because again that might still be too, but in a text box or a comment box or a an email or a text message or whatever it is. ⁓ I know, show me age, text message, old school. ⁓ D is that helping relationships? Is that ⁓ helping make relationships deeper because of that? Because there's that extra level of protection almost that they don't have to put on a front because they're not actually physically there. You know what I mean? Do you like you say there's a work version of you? We all have different versions of ourselves depending who we're talking to. You know what I mean? And it depends on what time we're talking to them. If it's the first meeting, we'll be a different time. I mean, now I'm fifty one, I'm kind of like This is me g I'm I've I think I'm only one version. You know what I mean? All the time. ⁓ probably slightly filtered. Because with friends on Zoom with a few shandies in, the l the language is gonna be more colourful. I'm Scottish. You know, it's gonna be. ⁓
speaker-0: I think that's probably something we should have said at the start of these episodes that we we we're not gonna necessarily hold back. No if you're if you're allergic to swearing, then you should probably turn off. ⁓ not that we're gonna be effing and blinding in in every single sentence, but in context, sometimes the odd the odd F bomb is ⁓ is required.
speaker-1: In context. It's I I'm self editing quite heavily. And I don't want to l lean into a s ⁓ Scottish stereotype, but
speaker-0: I j and again this is this is an interesting topic for this for this episode actually because I went out the other night for a curry with some lads that I I ⁓ have stayed in contact with since I left my last place. And I've been gone from there nearly five years. And there's four of us. Three of us left around the same sort of time. ⁓ I'm the only one that works for myself. And then the last guy left about seven or eight months ago. And went to work with one of the other guys of the four of us. So two of them now work together, and the other one works for someone else, and I obviously work for myself. And the moment I step into their company, I go back into Andy in the office mode. Every other word is fuck. And all four of us are just as bad as each other. We are a nightmare. We're loud, we're brash, and but do you know what? And this is the interesting thing. I see them probably three times a year for that curry. We always revert back to what it was like working in where we worked and what's going on with that place now because it's now been sold on, and all the we talk about the team members and what's happened to them. We're always in the past tense, or a lot of the time we're in the past tense because that is our relationship. Because we don't connect online in any way. They're they're not social media creators, they're not commenters, they don't support content of each other, they're they're very distracted or distanced from that world. We don't necessarily live in the now because we haven't we haven't learnt about what's going on. Whereas my relationships that I've got with people that perhaps I connect with more on a daily basis, they buff a bit more and we don't always harp on about the past.
speaker-1: Yeah. Evolve and
speaker-0: And I I do find that with my friend groups that I don't have a digital connection with and it's and it's based on relationships from years ago in person.
speaker-1: I mean, yeah, I mean that that ye I absolutely right. You go back to the default setting. It's where you last, you know, save point and you're like, right, that's what I was back then. So that's how I can I I mean, it's I it's I guess it comes down to communication. How's the best way of communicating with the with the people that you've got in front of you? You know what I mean? And you I guess that's where the adaptation comes in is I want to be understood, I want to be liked, I want to be, you know, whatever it is. So adapt with the way I'm communicating with these people. You know what I mean? And is that fundamentally changing it? I think there's obviously especially when you're younger and stuff like that and or or in business, you you end up putting up front on it. It's a completely different version of you. ⁓ you talk about quite a lot with you know, you're one this version in the office, but online you're this version. You know what I mean? It's it just makes life a hell easier for you, just those the same. But I think there's different flavours, there's different levels. You dial up and dial down depending on who you're with. I think it all seems to feel like it's coming from the same person. Like you say, that's how you communicate best with the people you work with because you've got nothing else in common apart from work. But if you knew if you met them more regularly, whether that's and I think we're getting to the point where it doesn't matter how you meet people, it's it's the t the amount of times that you meet them that your the relationship evolves because you learn more about each other. And that just grows. But if you don't, just go back to the last time you you you you were all in each other's company, which was just default. Speak about work, speak about people used to work with, jokes used to speak about in the language adjusts to suit more swearing, less swearing. You know. Certainly when I meet up with my friends, I speak about ten times faster than I was speaking right now. Again, a little bit of a conscious effort to slow my speech pattern down. When I get excited and animated, then it it's and I've noticed that in the videos that I put out that it starts sp so subtitles may become a thing down the line.
speaker-0: When when I've edited videos with you in, it throws the subtitle software that I use literally like when I when I subtitle my own videos, I probably only have to change one word in an entire video. If that, sometimes it gets it nail it nails it first time. It's just maybe if there's a bit of a mumble. With yours, it's like I've got it set to English and I've put in a Spanish video. Because it's like And I have to almost rewrite every other word because it's not picked it up.
speaker-1: It's it's wrong, I I serve my applied in that.
speaker-0: It can't deal with accents. ⁓ okay, let me give you this example then. This is this is also relevant. So last night I went to the local the market and meetup networking event that obviously we've been sponsoring for we have now stopped sponsoring that because it served its purpose. It it got me out of the house, got me off my ass, and f helped me build the habit of going every two months and being among humans.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: And actually getting off my house and and not being isolated at home on my own all the time. And and I really, really enjoy it. Problem. Two years ago, that event was probably probably had about 60 people each time. And when I did my talk in November twenty four, it was a packed house. And it was brilliant. Loved it. Loved it. ⁓ since the l in the last 18 months, the numbers have massively dwindled. And I would say last night was probably a record low. There were 27 people signed on, probably about 24, 25 turned up. Now, bearing in mind, three of those are the two hosts, ⁓ Helen and James, who are brilliant, me, and the speaker. So there's probably only 20, 20 people that have actually come to be in ⁓ in amongst it. And where I've been for the last six in a row, I start to I really noticed a big gap of people that I've seen turn up a few times and then then not bother for the last two or three. And we were trying to sort of put our finger on it. Is it across the whole of TMM in all the regions? Is it that potentially there are now more networking events and people have have spread out? Or are we are we in a position and Lynn's even mentioned this? She said post-pandemic, there was a real an extended period of time where people felt they needed to get out more. There was still a massive amount of working from home. Yeah. As we've seen in the last year, lots of offices and and businesses now are pushing their staff back into offices. Yeah. So the isolation isn't there like it used to be. And now people are getting home from the office after a long day and going, ⁓ fuck going out and fucking socializing. I just want to chill out. Whereas when they were in isolation they probably felt like they wanted to. Do you think that's a cause?
speaker-1: I mean that's a valid cause, I think. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 'Cause we were all again, using lockdown. When lockdown came out, it was like, let's get out and meet people. That was now it was a 'cause it was a novelty. It was something we hadn't done and we're we're we're we're desperate for it. Yeah, but now it's kind of finding that equilibrium and imbalance of now more people are going back to work. There's not so much working from from home. That yes, you're like, Well, I don't have to make an effort 'cause I'm seeing people all the time, whether it's on the commute, in the office, you know, I don't want to to be going out. To things like that. I guess well, we're we're different because we do work at home and we are in that that bubble of itself. So we we can see the benefit of well, I want to go out, I should be going out, I need to. There's that motivation to go out. Maybe you don't want to, because it means putting on socks and proper clothes and and ⁓ just okay. I mean somebody needs to do that. Can we have an event where we can just whatever we're wearing, we just go turn up and this you know, you've got to put on. Grown up clothes and or clothes will stop. I mean it's clothes, yes. I mean human decency. I mean
speaker-0: It's cloaked. Wore this because I I got up and did a bit of a talk at the end of the speaker's talk to thank everyone and and basically explain that those type of events you need to go three or four times in a row for the magic of it to really click. Yeah. And that's why I've sponsored it to force me to do that. And it was a really expensive way of building that habit, and I don't recommend people doing that, but it was the best money I ever spent because now I'm in that frame of mind. But would you you also say there's an argument that and again, this is something that Linz and I discussed, there's a lot more people over the last two years that have had small businesses fail and they've gone back into employment. And if you're in an employed role, you're not as motivated to spend your time at networking events because you don't really need to 'cause you're not part of your job role anymore.
speaker-1: No, I mean that yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I worked in places I did zero networking, it wasn't until I started working for myself that networking became a thing. ⁓ and yeah, I mean I think there's a side of it as well as y and it was interesting what you said that you sponsored it as a motivation to go along to it. 'Cause I've spent this money. I there's I've I've a I've ⁓ I've can apportion that value to it because I've bought it, so I'm going to use it. I think where a lot of these networking fall down is obviously when they're free, is people go, ⁓ yeah, that sounds good at the time and sign up and go it's free, so I'm not I'm not missing out on anything. I'm not out of pocket if I don't go. So it's not a motivation. So absolutely, yes, sponsoring something is an expense. But again it comes back to and it's not just networking, it's if there's a military value to it then you we ⁓ we we we see it's mu is more valuable. I've got to get my money's worth out of it. But yeah, there's definitely that That that side of it, if you work for yourself at home, you're probably more inclined to do networking.
speaker-0: It it comes back to our point about the whole shallow relationships thing. The more times I go to that event, the more the deeper the relationships become with the regulars that go. And I tell you what, and I said this to the to the group last night, I've had life-changing conversations with people in that networking group that have changed my view on elements in my business, particularly around AI, funnily enough.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And I wouldn't have had those conversations if I hadn't established those relationships with those individuals. Do you know what I mean? Which sometimes you go. So I think, again, back to the whole personal versus digital, I think there is an argument in that case that that that insight that I've gathered doesn't happen if I don't make the effort to go and and have that personal interaction in that group situation.
speaker-1: the yeah, effort isn't, I mean there's always everything's effort. But I think it what I'm I'm looking at is what's connecting all these things is it's there's effort to go and do them, but there's no effort needed to put on a version of yourself. You can just be yourself in all these things. And I think that's the it works, you've kind of got to be in work mode. I think if there's definitely a different version of you in your life, it's work you, which is completely different from any other version. of you. I think every other version outside work is just a variation on a theme. Did you I had I I had a work me, yeah, yeah. yeah, it was very vast it probably was. I mean I I and I I definitely carried that over when we set up Flux. Is there was a work version of me. There was very much a version of me that was front facing that was nothing like me.
speaker-0: Q.
speaker-1: ⁓ and it was exhausting. And that was a definitely a big turning point in business like, no, can we just be ourselves? And everybody comes to it and everybody tells you that. But y I think you've got to find it yourself. But you it's come to you. You're trying to be something that people you think people want you to be. Mm. And I think it's something you learn, especially when you're younger, you always go through that. And I think businesses are the same. You're trying to be what people you think. You're trying to second guess what what would people want to see. And if you get that point when you go, I'm just me. Take me or leave me. Yeah.
speaker-0: my barrier my barrier to probably doing better in my career than I did and and I don't get me wrong I did okay did got to some decent positions but I think one of my barriers to going further than I did probably particularly in retail was that I didn't I didn't have a work me so I was an arsehole in work and outside work. That was
speaker-1: I some would argue you still are. I mean I am.
speaker-0: And that's what I mean. And and the and I was a pain in the arse. I was difficult to manage. I spoke my mind. Yes. And and to a lot of and and and most of the bosses that I worked for r respected the fact that they'd get honesty out of me, even if they sometimes didn't want it. But unfortunately I was I was rubbish at playing a game that potentially would see me progress beyond where I was because when I saw something I didn't like or when I saw something that I felt could be done better or that was potentially causing the the the company a an issue, the politics of it I just couldn't I couldn't deal with. And I I couldn't hold back on telling people what I thought of those politics.
speaker-1: It politics are massive. Yeah, that's why I couldn't go back. I don't think. I couldn't deal with that. And possibly that's a reason why when you go work for someone, it's you're done with people politics that you just don't want to get involved in any that shape or form. So you apply that to every relationship or any group of people who think, ⁓ I don't want deal with the the game. I don't want to play the game of, you know. ⁓ but yeah, I think definitely there needs to be a balance. So I think that's what I've kind of come out. I went in from the intro of ⁓ no, digital relationships are gonna be much less deep, they're gonna be much more shallow than physical but you know what I mean I I think a a healthy balance of both. Again, technology's there and and we're and as we always said we're not anti AI, we're not anti technology. It's just when it's used for good purposes, I think then it then it's okay. yeah, I mean In my own work, I I there's very little of my clients are local that I can actually physically go and see. So that hasn't really had a massive impact. I thought at the the time it would, and I was very staunch in saying, right, well, if we've got to have that first meeting's got to be in person because it really needs to get that kind of vibe and feel, but but that wasn't possible. You learn to adapt how you pick up on and how you get that vibe. It takes a bit more effort, but You can get it through a screen.
speaker-0: Mm. I I agree. Well, we're we're living proof of that. well it seems like by the end of this episode, like you said, you've gone into it thinking definitely the human ⁓ interaction is is for the win. Nothing else comes close to it. But the reality is I think both of us have probably come to the end of this and we'd be interested to hear what people think, whether they agree with us, whether they're on the fence, whether they swing one way or the other. ⁓ it seems like both of us have come out of it thinking there does need to be a kind of combination of both to especially today where we are so busy and there isn't necessarily that time being made ⁓ or the effort being made to see each other in person like there perhaps used to be when we didn't have other options. So Yeah. ⁓ thank you very, very much for listening. If you are still listening, if you are still with us or if you're watching. And ⁓ we didn't do ⁓ we didn't do a ⁓ An attire change.
speaker-1: We didn't, so see if anybody picks up on that. I might start moving stuff behind me just to see if ⁓ people are spot the difference. Yeah.
speaker-0: I could I couldn't ⁓ we should do a spot the difference.
speaker-1: Yeah, see if anything's been moved or ch I mean mine's gonna be changing because mine's still in fluck streamless plug.
speaker-0: Yeah, mine's in program. We shouldn't be discussing too much about this because that's for another podcast.
speaker-1: ⁓ that we ⁓ mm shamel another shameless plug.
speaker-0: On the Brick Building Dad YouTube channel coming very soon. ⁓ we still need a name for that podcast, by the way, if you've got ⁓ any ⁓ any suggestions. ⁓ I also need suggestions on something that Mark and I could do in every episode that's a little bit of a game, a little bit of an interactive thing that people can get involved with when they're listening and and ⁓ viewing that ⁓ yeah, it's just a bit of fun. And your spot the difference idea reminded me of that. So we need a few suggestions on perhaps what we could do. For a little bit of a game that happens in every ⁓ no. It needs to just be a
speaker-1: Nothing too energetic, please. ⁓ No, no. I don't think it's just It is. But I think they're right in the comment based on this one is would you rather just watch us on screen or would you go for a pint with us? Yeah. So what one would you get more value out of?
speaker-0: Or would you rather do both? Rather do both.
speaker-1: Or do both. As long as you're buying, I'm I'm easy.
speaker-0: Thank you. Thank you very much for listening, watching every guy everyone, and we will see you next time.
speaker-1: Cheers guys.
