Finding Solid Ground: An Evidence Based Program For Complex Trauma & Dissociation with Dr. Bethany Brand

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Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast.
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Today, we welcome back to the show Dr.
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Bethany Brand, a leading clinical psychologist, researcher, and internationally recognized expert in trauma and dissociation.
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With over three decades of experience and as the principal investigator of the landmark top DD studies, Dr.
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Brand has helped transform how we understand and treat complex trauma.
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She's the co-creator of Finding Solid Ground, the first evidence-based, research-backed program specifically designed to support individuals living with complex trauma and associative disorders.
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Grounded in both rigorous science and deep clinical compassion, this work offers practical step-by-step tools to help people stabilize, build safety, and reconnect with themselves.
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In today's conversation, we'll focus on what it really means to find solid ground and how this approach is reshaping trauma treatment for both clinicians and survivors.
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I'm so grateful to know Bethany and to be able to work with her in this way.
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We're also presenting at the ISSTD conference in Portland.
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So if you're hearing this on Monday, you can still join us this Saturday at the plenary there in Portland, Oregon.
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We'd love to have you there, and I'm thrilled to share this conversation with you whenever you're listening to it.
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Please join me in welcoming Dr.
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Bethany Brand back to the show.
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I want to give a big shout out and extend a huge thank you to the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, the ISSTD, for sponsoring this episode.
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If you've been listening to the podcast, you've heard me talk about ISSTD countless times and the incredible researchers, clinicians, and advocates I've met during my time as a member and volunteer there.
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Bethany is one of them.
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The ISSTD has been delving into the science and best practice of treating trauma and dissociation for over 40 years, and they have a rich catalog of educational offerings for both professionals and non-professionals on their website, cfas.isst-d.org.
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If you're a mental health professional, I highly recommend you consider becoming a member of ISSTD.
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And I would love to see you during their live educational offerings and at the annual conference coming up so so soon in Portland, Oregon, starting March 26, 2026.
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Visit isst-d.org to learn more.
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And welcome to podcasts.
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Thank you so much, Lisa.
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It's an honor to be here.
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I'm really excited.
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Yeah, so finding solid ground.
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I'm sure some folks listening have read books, listened to you talk about it, heard trainings.
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Can you tell us a little bit just about what finding solid ground is and how it was born?
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Yes.
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We've developed it over about 15 years of research, also with input from people with lived experience with dissociation and from world-class clinicians and researchers.
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We have a dream team of people.
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Ruth Lanius, Frank Putnam, Rich Lowenstein, Hugashilka.
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I mean, we just have some top, not well-recognized names who've been our consultants and helped develop it.
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And we have completed our the first randomized controlled trial that in the world that has been beneficial to people with severe dissociative disorders, as well as the results show, as well as people with less severe symptoms.
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So people with complex PTSD and the dissociative subtype of PTSD.
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So hold on, I have an applause button.
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Yeah.
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It is, it is really huge.
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It's huge.
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And what I love about there's so many things I love about this.
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But one thing is I think for so long in this field, we find things that work well for the most simple cases.
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And then we go, ooh, but I don't know about if it gets more complex.
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And so what you're saying is through research finding this works for the most complex, you know, people diagnosed with dissociative disorders, complex trauma, and it can help other folks too, right?
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So it's the reverse of I think what we've seen for so long, which is, oh, this helps some people.
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Ooh, but not when it gets complicated.
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Exactly right.
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So many regular psychotherapy research studies and the trauma research studies exclude people if they're actively suicidal, if they're actively self-harming or using substances.
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And that's the population that really needs our help, right?
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Yeah, the most.
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And they're the most challenging for clinicians.
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Yes.
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So we took everybody as long as they had a therapist who would work with them through the program, and they both agreed to watch the videos, look at the journaling exercises, and you know, for the clients to actually do the practice skill development exercises.
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And you know, we took all comers.
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We have 200, almost 300 dyads, therapist patients from around the world who volunteered their time.
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Thank you, any of you who are listening.
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Yes.
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And so it I think of it as a crowd-sourced research study.
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Yeah.
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Because, you know, the US National Institute of Mental Health has never supported financially a study on complex dissociative disorders.
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We got no big funding like that.
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We got a lot of donations.
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Yeah.
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And that's how we pulled this all together.
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And I've had some brilliant students who have mostly actually all the consultants, like Frank Putnam, have donated their time.
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Yeah.
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Donated their time.
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Like that kind of research study could cost easily$3 million.
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Yeah.
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No, we did not have three million dollars, but we did it anyway.
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Yeah.
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Because so many people, the participants and research team, donated time.
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It's such an effort of love and commitment to healing across the board, right?
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To understanding what helps mental health professionals in terms of toolkit and what helps people actually start to feel some traction in a sort of treatment that can feel overwhelming and difficult to even find a match for some find where to get help or start to feel a sense of, oh, something's working.
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So it's such a beautiful testament to the human spirit to hear of this crowdfunding.
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And then I dreamstorm in my mind, shout out to Jennifer Gomez, who we're presenting at the conference on dreamstorming with.
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I always shout out to her every episode.
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I tell her she says she listens.
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She's like walking along the Charles River.
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Are you are you there?
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Are you listening?
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Are you walking along with Charles?
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Just a shout out to you.
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Hi, Jen.
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Hi, Jen.
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My dream storm here is that folks who are doing this research get the most funding and the most support because again, this is the hardest stuff.
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Like, why would we like spend all of our resources on the things that are easiest?
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Why wouldn't we do it this way where we're learning from, okay, this is what works in the most complex situations and it helps other people?
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And there's a trickle down or trickle over, trickle up, trickle around effect.
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Right.
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So can you share with us some of the primary components of finding solid ground?
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Like I'm I think it's safe to call it like a stage one sort of resourcing focused program and protocol.
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What are some of the elements?
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How did you come to them?
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How did they arise in your work?
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It's a little brief story.
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Frank Putnam put me up to it.
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Yes, as he does, as he does.
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I have so much respect for Frank Putnam.
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He is a hero.
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He has done so much to improve the world.
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He said to me at an ISS TD conference, some young person needs to find a way to do a treatment study.
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We have not had a rigorous treatment study to date.
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And I kind of scoffed.
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I love him, but I did kind of roll my eyes like there's no funding, Frank.
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Yeah.
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Who's going to do this?
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We don't have any treatment centers where we can train up a bunch of therapists.
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You know, I had some idea about what the psychotherapy research has to look like.
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But he planted the idea in my mind, and I started thinking about it, and I'd be working out down in my basement on my Nordic tract.
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This was a long time ago, and you could get a Nordic track.
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And I'd be working out and I'd get energy and excitement, and I'd be thinking, like, how can we do it?
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And we actually had two goals.
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We absolutely wanted to help even the most challenging clients with the most severe symptoms, down to you know, more minor symptoms, but still complex trauma.
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And we wanted to try and help the therapist because this is such a hard group to help.
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Yeah, it can be very challenging.
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You can feel like you're not making progress, your heart goes out to your clients and you see their suffering.
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It is so hard.
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And so we started talking about what would a program need to be that would be stabilizing.
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Yes.
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And so we didn't create, you know, all of these ideas fresh ourselves.
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Some we did.
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Some of the exercises that are now in our finding solid ground workbook, we created.
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But we started with grounding, which you know, we've almost all heard about grounding and been doing grounding, but we emphasize that as the starting point for finding solid ground, which I may slip and call it FSG.
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So just so people know what I'm talking about.
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And what we all have learned, and I mean the researchers who are all of us were clinicians still, with I think the exception of Frank Putnam, we're all still very actively treating clients.
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We thought we were doing enough grounding.
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Yeah.
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And I don't think any of us have been, probably.
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Um, and now with some of Ruth Lanius's research on the importance of working with the vestibular balance system, we are now emphasizing that.
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I know the yoga work you too.
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Yeah, you've been talking about it and doing it, and OTs have been talking about some of this, but into mainstream regular therapy, probably a lot of people haven't.
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Yeah.
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And so emphasizing we have these eight modules and finding solid ground.
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The program is broken into eight modules.
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In the eight modules across over time, it's we talk about 30 topics.
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So we try and break down.
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I took a lot of thinking and dreamsting.
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Like, all right, if you just had like a year or maybe two years to stabilize somebody, and people can go through finding solid ground much slower than that, and plenty of people need to.
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Yeah.
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But what would be the key ingredients?
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So, of course, grounding.
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Yes.
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Then some other research.
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We've been developing this based on some of our research and other people's research.
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One of our most important studies showed from working with highly dissociative participants.
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We asked them what were their main triggers or any of their triggers they could recall in their entire life that had led them to engage in self-harm or high-risk behaviors.
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And the number one trigger was being flooded by traumatic intrusions.
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Yeah.
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So horrible pictures, body memories, and they couldn't get it to stop.
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And so, of course, we all know they've taught us, our clients have taught us, like using drugs or alcohol to stop the feelings or other kinds of self-indurious behaviors, potentially self-indurious behaviors, stops it.
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Yeah.
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Reliably.
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Yeah.
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But it also keeps people caught up, whether they're aware of it or not, in this idea that it's okay for my body to be hurt.
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And it's a reenactment from childhood, right?
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And that's all folks had when they were little.
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You know, you don't have all the resources you do as you get older.
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So our second module after grounding was separating past from present.
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Really helping contain and give some sense of control over those intrusions, helping them find ways to distinguish is am I safer now or not?
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What are my resources now?
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And did I have those when I was younger?
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And just ways to help, those are some basic ways, and we go into a lot more detail in the program, but the basic ways of calming the nervous system and helping them not be so flooded.
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So they didn't have the triggers to engage in self-harm so much.
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Yeah.
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And then I worked inpatient for on a trauma disorders unit for a number of years, early, early in my career as a postdoc.
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And of course, when you're working inpatient, you jump right to safety problems because that's all the insurance is going to give you time for, right?
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And so, in my experience, you go to safety problems right away.
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But Dr.
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Hugashoka, one of our collaborators, co-developers of the program, led live groups in a forensic psychiatric state hospital in California testing out FSG, an early version.
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And he got lots of feedback, they got lots of feedback from clients saying, can't do that.
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Emotions too big, safety too big, can't talk about that.
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And so we learned from that kind of feedback to make to get into safety.
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We have two modules on safety, but if they come later after people already have the foundational skills so they can help tolerate that safely.
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And then toward the end of the program, we get into emotions and encourage people in baby steps.
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Try to sit for a little bit as long as you can, but respect yourself and your body.
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When you get the sense that that's enough, respect that and move away, outside or around in some other way.
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We do talk about parts, but not a ton, and then not till later, because when you're talking about dissociative self-states or parts, it brings up often trauma memories, maybe conflict about trauma memories, and a lot of emotion.
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And that's so big that we think that's the purview of individual therapists to decide with this client how much can I talk about it and when.
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But we do bring up ideas like all parts are created to help.
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Yeah.
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And you know, compromise, communication, collaboration.
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You may adapt any of these skills for different parts.
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We say some of that, yeah, just not in lots of detail.
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Yeah.
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So we think we have, as you said, a stabilization program that works in manageable chunks.
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And oh, we have these videos too.
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So I'm in these videos talking 10 to 13 minutes typically, and at the end of every single one, I say step by step, you'll get there.
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Yeah.
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And we've heard that that was encouraging, which of course we meant that to be.
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And we wanted to get internalized.
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Um, and so we know of one case, for example, the person has given us permission to share the story.
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One woman who participated in our study, she after at some point got into a real suicidal crisis.
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She was determined to go and kill herself.
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I won't get into details.
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And then right as she prepared to do it, she heard me in her head from those videos saying, Step by step, you'll get there.
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Yeah, wow.
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She went away from where she was gonna hurt herself.
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She went home and she activated her safety plan she had made as part of FSG.
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Yes.
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She lived through it.
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Yeah.
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Wow, what a huge success story to be able to hear and share and know that that voice is getting internalized step by step.
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You'll get there.
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Yeah.
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And I just, as you're talking about it, can feel you're so clearly a clinician, a rare, a rare bird of clinician and researcher, because there's such a sense of compassion and clarity with everything you describe.
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And a researcher's mind has to really think about things in certain ways.
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And it there's a risk at times of losing that sense of humanity there, but it's just so fully enveloped in everything I hear you describe, like the compassion and the perspective, best any of us can do for what our clients are going through, and really meeting that and really delivering something that, you know, we're open to studying, and we're saying, really trying to find what people who've experienced things like you are telling us is working.
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And then we're studying that and packaging it in the best way and getting feedback from therapists and clinicians and honing it over time and continuing to study it, and then working together on it, right?
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Exactly.
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It's not this is the modality.
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Here you go.
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It's so relational, and I hear just so much attunement and care in there with respect for the fact that even care, even safety, all those things can be big no's, especially in the beginning or or over long periods of time, even for folks who've experienced a lot of harm.
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Exactly right.
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You are so sensitive.
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Uh, you're picking up on some things that mattered so much to us.
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So we tried to build in self-compassion, and that is one of our outcome variables that improves over time.
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But we also know that that can feel incredibly threatening, like a trick, disgusting, revulsing.
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And so we put it in a little early and then we come back to it.
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Yeah.
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You know, put your I tell my own personal clients, um, if listeners know the song The Hokey Pokey.
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Yes, yes.
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You put your right foot in, you put your right foot out, you put your right foot in and shake it all about.
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I use that um metaphor and kind of laugh with my own clients.
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Like just put a toe in.
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Yes.
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Try it.
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Think, could you just think about it for a couple of seconds?
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Maybe, like all the other people who are participating in this program.
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Uh you know, our clients are so compassionate toward others.
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So you you you recognize, you know, I'm talking as if I'm doing one of those videos.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:32.240
You recognize that people doing this study, you you understand they don't deserve to be hurt and feel awful about themselves.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.839
But you imagine that perhaps that also is accurate for you.
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:45.680
And what we've heard, um, some of the stories, we've we've had extremely experienced therapists.
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:50.559
Most most people who were participating in the study as therapists had lots of trauma training.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.599
And I know one who can't identify participants, but she reached out to me.
00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:01.599
She was a former postdoc who got great training back in the days when Shepard Pratt had a great trauma unit.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:09.359
And she said, My client and I, as we did the study, she said to me at one point, Why haven't you taught me this stuff?
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:10.240
Yes.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:11.519
Where have you been?
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:12.400
What have you been doing?
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:13.920
What are all these certificates about?
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:14.799
Come on now.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.119
And of course, the therapist had been doing the exact thing.
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:20.079
Of course.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:20.559
Yeah.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.279
And so we think, like, we've sat with this and talked about this.
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.599
Like, why is FSG helping?
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:27.920
Yeah.
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:39.599
And one of our thoughts might be uh Ruth Lanius is very, very short, as sure as you can be without actually doing a study where you take apart all the components and look at it.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.160
She thinks the videos really have made a difference.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.920
And plenty of clients and therapists have said they made a difference.
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:50.960
Some therapists have said it feels like I have a co-therapist so alone.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:21:00.880
And clients, some some who participated said things like, I remember one person, I wish my partner could watch these videos and they would understand me.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.599
And other people said, I am taking in the understanding, the compassion.
00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:12.000
And somebody said, and as I take in self-compassion, I have self-compassion from my parts.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.119
Yeah.
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:14.319
Yeah.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:15.200
Yes.
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:21.119
So I think maybe because my voice, you know, I'm not their therapist.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.680
There's no conflict that they have to pay me to see them.
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:27.279
I can't possibly hurt them.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:28.400
I'm just a video.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:29.200
Yes.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:39.440
And then there we have the workbook now that has all the journaling exercises and all the skill practice exercises from the randomized controlled uh study.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:46.640
And so I think those things help some people think, okay, there is science that shows this helps.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:55.680
If I just keep plugging away and don't give up on myself, like they keep saying in the videos, I'll make progress step by step.
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:56.319
Yeah.
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.759
So it seems like it may be some of a motivation.
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:00.960
Yeah.
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:10.240
A source of hope, but maybe not as threatening because they could turn me off the videos anytime and come back and watch as many times as they want.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:10.880
Yes.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:11.440
Right.
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.079
So we've got this website app we're developing.
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.880
It'll be available soon that'll offer access to those videos.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:29.440
It will be a subscription model because it's expensive to have a really um safe uh website that hosts these things so they can't get corrupted.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:30.079
Yeah.
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:31.759
But it'll be available.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.279
Oh, that's so wonderful.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:47.680
And then folks can tap in and just like you said, play, pause, rewind, stop in total control of the relationship to that without any sense of, oh, Bethany's gonna get mad at me if I need to stop, right?
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.720
Or oh, I want to repeat that one a million times.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:51.359
Is that okay?
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.039
Like, yeah, it's all it's all good.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.519
You can be right where you are and get that support.
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:56.400
Exactly.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.519
You know, uh, I'm sure you've had this, Lisa, where clients feel like it's creepy if they need you.
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:03.279
If they're like, that's gross.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:04.799
I can't be dependent on you.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:18.000
And I think it just offers one more resource that feels exactly as you're saying, under their control and relational, but not as scary as face-to-face relationships, perhaps.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:24.720
Yeah, that intermediary and another resource, another part of the plan, another part of the support network.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:32.000
So if it's the middle of the night, or if your therapist is on vacation and they have a wonderful backup person that you don't really know so well, right?
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:37.440
Like any of those things, it's just another place to get support and care.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:42.480
And that research piece, knowing it's backed by science, right?
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:48.799
Knowing this has been taken apart and put back together and studied and looked at from different angles.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:56.240
And I'd imagine to the degree people know that it's resourced from experience too, right?
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.880
It's not, hey, I have this idea, let's test it.
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:14.960
It's, hey, these themes have emerged and oh, we have some ideas to layer into that, and then let's see how it works well, and then let's study it and ooh, it's working, to have that sense of confidence to be able to lean onto something, especially in work like this, right?
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:24.240
Especially when you know it's up and down and all around and it's challenging to be able to lean just enough on, okay, step by step I'll get there.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.960
If I keep doing this, this is gonna help, right?
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.920
I have a sense of confidence in that.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.039
That can be just priceless.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:34.880
Yes, I agree.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:41.359
It it feels like to go back to the therapist of the woman who had the suicidal crisis.
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:42.960
Um, his name is Dr.
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.720
Nicolas Rodriguez.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.960
He's very pre-eminent in Chile.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.079
He's given me permission to share his story, as has his client.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:59.200
He has shared with us that he thinks it's a game changer that there will be a before and after finding solid ground and uh trauma field.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:04.000
Because him just he's a real expert in EMDR.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:09.519
He trains, he consults, he's gonna be he's starting a FSG research study in Chile.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:21.839
He saw such differences, and as he's training people, he's hearing such differences that he has that level of faith in it that he says it's a game changer.
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:28.160
One piece I didn't address, and I will be presenting this at ISS T D next week.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:34.799
And if you're listening to this in 2026, yeah, in 2026, Friday, what is it, March 20th?
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:35.920
The 27th.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:37.359
March 27th.
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:38.880
I'm doing a training tomorrow.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:40.000
That's the 20th.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.319
No, ISSTD is the 27th.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.200
Yes.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.920
I'll show the slides that will show this.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.039
There's different ways you can do statistical analyses.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.839
The typical way is you group everybody together and you look at the group data.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:56.160
Yeah.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:09.680
When we look at the group data that way, we had people, everybody understood as they came into the study that they could be assigned to continue with your individual therapy and wait six months to get access to finding solid ground.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:16.000
And half of them would continue with your individual therapy and get immediate access to finding solid ground.
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:36.160
In research terms, it had as an extremely challenging design because most treatment studies looking at what they want to see if it works, FSG, they compare it to a watered-down, very light intervention, like let's teach an uh anxiety management exercise or something.
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:37.039
Something.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.559
Let's talk about the importance of diet or exercise.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:41.039
Right.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:41.599
Right?
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:46.000
Like it's not going to compete with changing PTSD and dissociation.
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:51.599
Well, we wanted something that's actually going to be really helpful to the field.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:58.000
Does FSG add something above and beyond individual therapy with therapists who are experienced?
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:00.799
And this is what we found.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.200
And I get I literally get small.
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:04.079
Yes.
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:10.799
It's you know, it's the um top of it's the pinnacle of my career that we've managed to do this.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:15.759
So I do get emotional about it because I've seen this suffering for over 30 years.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:16.400
Okay.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:26.640
So in the group who had individual therapy alone, none of their outcomes improved in six months from individual therapy.
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.960
Not any.
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:29.839
Wow.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:41.039
And then once they got FSG, um, well, the immediate access group just at six months showed really nice improvements in every outcome variable we looked at.
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.640
And then at a year, they showed continued improvement.
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:53.200
Once the wait list that was still getting individual therapy got FSG, then they caught up to the six-month improvements.
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:58.000
And then they continued, and at one year they showed really beautiful improvements.
00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:58.640
Wow.
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:04.079
So we can say with confidence that FSG caused those improvements.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:04.720
Yes.
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:10.240
That is the rock solid highest level of research evidence for any treatment.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:16.799
All right, so that's at the group level, but then we have gone ahead and added some additional analyses.
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:22.160
Thank you, Karen Putnam, Frank Putnam's brilliant statistician wife.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:22.960
Yes.
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.680
She has been analyzing and analyzing and making sure are these analyses correct?
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:31.920
You know, and we trust her with every precious data.
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:33.759
She's extremely good.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.480
We asked her to do reliable change index analyses.
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:57.680
What that does is look at the individuals to find out well, did any individuals make reliable change beyond just, you know, when you take different questionnaires again and again, there's there's some error, there's some noise in people's answers on questionnaires.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:02.880
You know, maybe I won't go into detail, but we wanted to see, well, what about individuals?
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:14.720
And so individuals in that six-month wait list uh condition, some some small percentage did make reliable change improvements.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:18.640
Some also smaller groups deteriorated.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:22.559
We all know that's part of working with complex trauma.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.799
Yeah, that there are periods of waxing and waning symptoms.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:33.200
One of our early studies shows if they've been if a client was re-victimized, so of course their symptoms are going to worsen.
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:45.039
Or if there's a huge amount of family stress or intrusions from past abusers, our research study showed that it's understandable and they did get more symptomatic.
00:29:45.359 --> 00:30:00.000
So over time, looking at reliable change, looking at comparing the rates of reliable change just from those in individual therapy, once they got FSG, their reliable change doubled.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:12.400
The percentage of individual clients who showed reliable change in PTSD dissociation, self-compassion, adaptive capacities doubled.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:16.240
It is very clear to us it's FSG.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:23.839
And once they got into FSG, the rates of deterioration sometimes vanished to zero.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:24.960
Wow.
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.759
Or it went to tiny little percentages.
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.240
So we're still trying to make sense of that.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:33.839
We feel like it's like safety guardrails, maybe.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:43.519
We think we got the sequence right with all that input from people with lived experience and all these wise clinicians around the world as we adapted it over time in our research.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.599
We think we got the sequence right.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:46.160
Yeah.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:57.359
And if people don't give up on themselves, and if they keep step by step going through that program at whatever pace they need, they show improvement.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.079
Yeah.
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:04.960
It is.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:06.880
I mean, it is.
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:13.359
I every single time I get choked up or goosebumps or both, because I didn't think it was possible.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:18.240
When Frank Putnam said somebody ought to study this, like, where's the money?
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:19.200
How do we do it?
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:20.880
And then he added the clincher.
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:24.480
And you know, it would be amazing if we could do an online intervention.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:29.039
And then I just like rolled my like ha ha ha ha, slapping money over here.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.160
That's hilarious.
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:37.519
And hilarious because how do you help folks who've been so mistreated and struggling for you know often decades?
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.079
How do you help them if you don't actually see them?
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:40.640
Yeah.
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:46.319
And an online manualized intervention, come on, that's hogwash.
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:47.119
Yeah.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:49.759
I didn't have a lot of faith in those programs.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:50.559
Yeah.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:59.200
But now, but we worked hard and tinkered with it over time, not just tinkered, it doesn't do it justice.
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:03.920
We improved it over time based on the feedback we got and our research results.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.599
And lo and behold, yeah, we're here.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:12.400
So, what are some of the symptom improvements that people report?
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:20.079
Are they feeling, you know, they're scaling less on sort of dissociative inventories or PTFD inventories?
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:20.400
Yeah.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:35.759
Are there any uh and I don't know how much qualitative data you're collecting here, too, in terms of stories or words, but are there any themes you want to share of how people report their clients or themselves feeling supported, feeling better?
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.720
Yes.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:47.680
Again, thank you to one of my former students who is the students who've worked on the study, Nick Pirazzio and Shay Nestor being the top two.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.440
I'm just giving them a shout out.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.559
Yes, they've gone on to doctoral programs.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:33:00.880
My university didn't have doctoral programs, so they got their masters or were in the process of getting their master's and then moved on to a doctoral program.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.880
And they have stayed linked in with the study.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.640
They are still our co-authors.
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.759
You know, like they're loyal, they're faithful, they have the dream.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.079
Yes, help these clients too.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:10.640
Good.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:16.160
So and they both really love qualitative research.
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.119
So Nick was first author on a paper that came out.
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:22.160
Um, I'm trying to remember, was it 2026, 2025?
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:23.920
I cannot keep it all straight.
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:34.720
He, with a team, I was one of the authors, but I have a minor role, analyzed with an open text box question from the surveys for clients.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.079
What did you find helpful, if anything, in FSG?
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:47.599
And I won't be able to remember all the themes that emerged, but they talked about the actual content of the program was helpful.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.759
They felt like they learned skills, and that was helpful.
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:56.799
They felt it helped strengthen the relationship with their therapist.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:04.799
And relational healing, as you've already pointed out several times, is crucial to working with trauma survivors and helping them.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.400
They felt it helped them develop self-compassion.
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:17.599
And there's these quotes about how they had some they for some people with parts, how they develop more compassion toward their parts.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:22.000
Things like that that they just felt were really helpful.
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:24.639
Ah, another thing, I love this.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:33.760
As I said earlier, you know, typically people who have experienced complex trauma have huge hearts, huge amount of self-compassion for others.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:34.320
Yes.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:40.480
And so they said another theme that emerged was it felt meaningful to be doing something to help other people.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:41.440
Yeah.
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:49.440
Like if they couldn't maybe do it for themselves someday, they would still like think maybe it's going to help somebody else when I help somebody else.
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:55.440
And I hope people listening, any uh anybody out there living with dissociation, adopt that thinking.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:05.440
If there are days you don't feel like you can do it for you, try and do it thinking maybe if I help myself down the road, I'll be there for somebody else.
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:07.840
Maybe my pet, maybe my child, who knows?
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.079
Yeah, maybe it'll help somebody else.
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.119
Or those days you can't do it just solely for yourself.
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:14.639
Yeah, it's true.
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:22.079
I find so much compassion for animals and for right, like so much love and compassion.
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:26.960
It's in there, and it's just finding that really unique pathway, right?
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:31.760
I'm thinking of like a going on a hike and you have to go through the jungle at some point.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:42.400
You there's no path for it, but you find the safest way that you can cut through and and create access that self-compassion or or direct it back, right?
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:55.760
It's like you gotta create a trail and then a road, and then you know, just make that that accessible because I think it does feel really inaccessible for a whole host of reasons for a number of people.
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:58.239
Yeah, it can feel dangerous to have hope.
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:06.639
Yes, yeah, it can feel like the worst level of I am unworthy of getting better.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:08.079
We've heard these things, right?
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:11.360
In our offices with our clients and in the study.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:19.039
No, but uh don't give up on yourself, just keep going, plot you know, step by step, go through that program.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:24.559
And is just to be honest, we've only tested it in two different modalities now.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:31.440
The randomized controlled trial, our strongest methodological study was with people who were in individual therapy.
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:36.159
We have not yet tested it with people just doing it on their own.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:36.639
Yeah.
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:43.840
But if you can't find a therapist or don't want to be in therapy, can't afford it, whatever, I hope it still helps.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:47.599
We desperately hope it still helps, but we just don't have research to say it was.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:48.480
Yeah.
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:55.519
It's also been tested, uh, FSG was tested in a group format by some researchers at Purdue University.
00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:58.079
And their studies have been published now.
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.840
At least one is all the way out, the other one I think is still in press.
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:12.320
Um, but they without a randomized controlled trial, they showed that going in a group format through the program helped patients with these same outcomes.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:30.239
So PTSD improved, dissociation improved, a measure I don't think I've mentioned so far called Progress in Treatment Questionnaire, which we developed early on in our studies, and it's free and it's available out on the web through one of our websites.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.280
I'm trying to remember which website I'm not remembering right now.
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:35.679
I should say what our one of our websites.
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:40.000
The main one now is called finding solidground.info.
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:40.639
Yes.
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:44.239
It's just those words together, no dots or line or dashes.
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:46.079
Finding solid ground.info.
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:48.480
We have information about the studies.
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:52.000
We might have information about how to get to the pit queue on there.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:52.480
We might have.
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:52.960
Yes.
00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:54.320
Sorry, I should have looked it up.
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:55.599
Maybe you can link to it.
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.159
Yeah, we'll definitely link to finding solid ground.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.519
And if if I mean I would imagine we can find it and link to that.
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:03.599
Pick you, I'll send it to you in an email.
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:04.960
Yeah, that's perfect.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.239
But it's there's a version for therapists, there's a version for patients.
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:12.960
So we've analyzed so far the patient version, and so did the Purdue researchers.
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:22.320
And it looks at adaptive capacities, the kind of capacities you want people who have experienced complex trauma to develop over time.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:28.559
So it addresses things like I can work with my therapists and make progress.
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:35.280
I can have urges to do risky, maybe even self-harming things, but I don't engage in that.
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:38.079
Or I use safe coping instead.
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.480
I found meaning in life.
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:44.800
Like things we didn't expect from a stabilizing program would improve.
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:56.320
I've like looking at social support and being able to deal with emotions, recognizing that if there's an item in there about not blaming themselves for trauma.
00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:57.119
Yeah.
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:04.159
Some of these items, some of those capacities are supposed to develop later in treatment.
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:10.480
But at least with one of our papers, we looked at every item on the pit cue and it improved.
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:11.760
Every item.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:27.440
We didn't expect that in a stabilizing stage one program, but I think it's what you've been saying, what I've been saying, about as people take in all this education we teach in FSG about this is what trauma does to people.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:27.920
Yeah.
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:29.599
These are the effects of trauma.
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:35.280
This is not you being weak or a bad person or having asked for it.
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:37.519
This is what trauma does.
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:39.519
They internalize that.
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:44.320
And so even some late-stage stuff or supposedly late stage improvement started improving.
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:51.119
There's an item on there about being able, at least at times, to experience some sexual pleasure.
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:54.320
That's a late-stage improvement.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.559
And it's it changed significantly.
00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:00.239
It's in our network study, we haven't analyzed it from the RCT yet.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:06.079
Anyway, so the Purdue folks showed the pit Q, the adaptive capacities improved.
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.079
Did I say self-compassion?
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:17.199
In a group format, and they they had eight groups, seven were virtual groups, only one was face to face.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:18.000
Wow.
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:22.960
And so Frank Putnam is the first one who started saying, This is scalable.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:24.800
This is a scalable intervention.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.119
Bethany, you've got to start scaling up.
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:28.000
Yes.
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:29.199
Yes, sir.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:32.400
He's so passionate about helping these.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:39.039
And he must be just so overjoyed that that seed, that idea of the research to see this come to life.
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:54.719
I mean, I'm just going to keep dreamstorming on the podcast for hope that one day, decade later, someone, some listener will come and be like, hey, I heard this idea of a better world that you talked about with Bethany Brand and what we did with that, right?
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.079
Oh, that would be my honor if that happens.
00:40:58.400 --> 00:40:58.639
Right.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.880
Well, I mean, it's happening right now for with what Frank Putnam offered to you.
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:07.199
And like that's why the goosebumps, that's why the depth of emotion.
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:24.719
And because both you and Frank and so many of us here listening to know the depth of what this means for people, for someone to be ready to end their life and hear an encouraging voice, to hear your voice saying, step by step, you'll get there.
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:29.280
And to make a choice to live in that moment, that's huge.
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:31.599
And that's one example.
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:41.679
And there's so many more moments of healing, or and the step by step you'll get there, you know, when hope feels far away.
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:44.639
It's hopeful, but it's also very present moments.
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.760
It's very like look at what, okay, one step at a time, just do today.
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.800
That's enough.
00:41:51.039 --> 00:42:02.239
We don't have to go to, hey, everything's gonna be okay, or we don't have to go to anything that starts to feel like a platitude or difficult to connect with from a challenged place, right?
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:04.000
But step by step you'll get there.
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:09.119
I mean, I could use that on a trail run too, and it's very, it's very accurate, right?
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:16.559
Looking at the top of the mountain, like that looks really far away, but step by step you will get there, right?
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:17.679
I love it.
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:19.360
So we tease each other now.
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:21.840
Um, that was Ruth Lanius's quote step by step.
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:24.880
She's the one who told me I had to put that in every single blast of me.
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:26.639
Nice, but she was right.
00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:28.159
Yeah, wisdom.
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:35.280
And I wanted to shout out Huga Shilka is the one who came up with the the term finding solid ground is the name of the program.
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:39.599
Yes, like we do well together, and now we tease each other and ourselves.
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:41.920
Like, okay, we got to write up the paper.
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.639
The final paper for FSG is not yet written.
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.840
Okay, step by step, we'll get there by step, we'll get there.
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:50.159
Come on, come on, don't give up.
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:51.039
Come on, team.
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:52.480
We got this step by step.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:52.800
Yeah.
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:54.239
I mean, it is so much work.
00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:04.880
And I just think it boggles my mind to think about the all the work and all the layers and the people that have to contribute for something like this to come to fruition in the way that is happening.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:12.960
So just celebrate that for all of you and encourage you to continue step by step while you're taking care of yourselves, while you're resting, taking breaks.
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:16.480
I'm curious about clinicians and any themes you've heard too.
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:27.760
Are there are there any things that you're feeling, oh, okay, there's problems with burnout and vicarious trauma, and there's also vicarious resilience in the field with finding solid ground.
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:32.480
What are our therapists or mental health professionals saying this does for them?
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:41.199
We haven't yet analyzed their qualitative feedback, but what we have heard, because I have read through their other comment boxes, yeah.
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:50.880
They've said things like, I feel like I have a co-therapist, or I'm learning ways to say things to my clients that will land better.
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:51.360
Yeah.
00:43:51.760 --> 00:44:00.960
And, you know, figuring out how to say challenging things about safety that won't be blaming, the way that you guys have phrased it in the workbook or the Videos.
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:03.440
We also have published already a study.
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:11.760
Amy Myrick, a former student, who, despite not getting paid, like all of us, when we write these papers, we don't get paid, we give up our time, right?
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:17.760
Bless you, Amy, took on the lead on this paper where we looked at therapists.
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:24.719
Did their knowledge of how to help that specific client improve over time in the study?
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.840
And it did.
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:30.159
We asked them at the beginning, what are those clients' triggers for self-harm?
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:35.599
What are ways that client can use that would help them get through safely at those times?
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.920
And a bunch of kind of questions like that.
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:40.719
And then we asked them again at the end of the study.
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:46.960
And their knowledge score for their client they participated with improved.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.280
So it backs up what the client said that it helped our relationship.
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:52.000
Yes.
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:59.119
You know, these were mostly, I mean, we had some therapists who had less experience, but a lot of them had a lot of training and drama.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.639
Some were doing talks and writing papers of their own.
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.519
Um, but but they still got something out of it.
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:11.199
The range of therapists we had, they personally got something out of this the program.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:18.320
So I mean, that's those were our two goals help therapists, train therapists, and help clients.
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:20.639
And win, win, win.
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:22.719
I like it supporting everyone.
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:36.800
And it also sounds to me like another reminder that building what we want to create, you know, focusing on the feelings that are not the trauma is really important, right?
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:41.199
Like really finding solid ground, connecting to solid ground underneath us.
00:45:41.280 --> 00:46:08.159
I don't know if there's a nature ecotherapy element that you're conscious of there too, but hey, we're all on the same planet here, you know, and there's a very real physicality in time and space that we can tune into in a therapy session that we find helpful and that that can help us navigate through so much without, you know, it's almost like I'm thinking of the term lose the forest for the trees.
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:22.320
Like you kind of end up so impacted by the impact of the trauma in the past that we're like, oh, well, we'll ground for five minutes at the beginning and then we'll run around the forest together, and then we'll ground for five minutes at the end.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.000
It's like, well, what if we slowed?
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:26.639
Like all these things we know, all these things we've heard a million times.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:29.519
What if we slow down even more?
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:36.400
What if we resource with even more slow, steady pace and reassurance?
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:40.480
And what if we commit to that resource over a chunk of time?
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:52.880
And what if we get support from this beautiful research team that created us at FSG and we have some structure and some flexibility in it, and we're all doing this together and we're focused on what we want more of.
00:46:53.119 --> 00:47:03.519
We want to feel solid, we want to feel grounded, we want to feel centered, we want to feel whatever, you know, the vestibular system wants to feel a little more aware of where it is and what's going on.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:09.519
And so all of that just feels like it threads into what we know, but we can go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, grounding.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.039
Okay, check grounding, orienting, let's move into the processing.
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:21.760
It's like, but you're learning that that stuff allows and creates space for some of these later stage goals to arise naturally.
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:32.480
And again, it fits, but we can get so drawn into, well, I have to be doing, I have to be going under the hood and tinkering with this memory or with this part system.
00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:54.320
And it's like, well, if we really create the space for it, things can also self-organize and and people can improve measurably when we hold that kind of space where it has that clarity and intention and structure and research support and humanity, right?
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:59.360
It's not so fixed, it's structured, but it's also human and responsive.
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.400
Wow, you said that beautifully.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:07.119
Well, I'm so glad it's recorded because I probably wouldn't be able to say it again.
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.280
I love it.
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:11.679
You nailed it.
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:13.519
You you really nailed it.
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:25.519
Um, one thing I didn't emphasize, but you just picked up on it anyway, is we gave people access to this program, but we said go at whatever pace fits for you and your client.
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:28.960
So they the team got to decide it together.
00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:32.800
We did not allow them to move faster than one topic a week.
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:42.639
Because to truly take in this information, to truly journal and practice the exercises, we we do believe you need at least a week.
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.239
The Purdue team every single week did a new topic.
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:52.000
I think the vast majority of people will need more than a week on a topic.
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:52.320
Yeah.
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:59.519
And so, yes, it's a manualized program, but there's so much flexibility, just exactly what you said.
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:09.199
People with their clients, client and therapists together as a team can decide what pace works for this client at this point in their healing.
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:15.519
Yeah, maybe in a few months, they're gonna have some life challenges and they're gonna need to slow down even further.
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:16.800
Yeah, that's okay.
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:18.880
Yeah, so it's responsive.
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:19.599
Yeah.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:41.360
So as we wrap up for today, I'm wondering if you could give us a sample of any finding solid ground practice, a moment you've recorded videos, you've probably led a million people through these things, but what's something that might be good for therapists that are listening for any human who's listening that just wants to recenter ground for a moment?
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:43.280
Would you mind guiding us?
00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:44.800
Not at all.
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:55.760
So, again, shouting out to Ruth Lanius that she has really helped me understand the importance of doing this gravitational vestibular balance system grounding.
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:56.639
Let's try that.
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:59.360
And I it's an invitation to anybody out there.
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.800
If you don't want to do it, obviously don't feel compelled.
00:50:03.039 --> 00:50:08.639
But if you could, I'm I'm sitting in a chair right now and I'm bouncing up and down if you don't happen to be looking at me.
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.920
I'm just gently bouncing a little bit.
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:28.719
I mean, up and down, and I can feel, and I'm inviting you to feel along with me, feel how the gravity of the earth gently holds you upright and hold you to the earth.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:41.679
We each have a secure footing on the earth because of this gravitational pull, it keeps us upright.
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:49.360
And for some people, sometimes going side to side helps rocking.
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:54.480
We've seen a lot of our clients sometimes rock in session or move however they move.
00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:58.559
They may at times curl up, they just think if you could.
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:07.599
Now I'm shifting a little bit into a different kind of um, I would stay with a client with gravitational grounding like we just did for a much longer.
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:14.400
But another thing we ask in our we suggest in our trainings is listen to your body.
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:24.400
What is if you can, if you're at that place in your healing, what is it your body, what sensation is your body wanting or needing now?
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:31.599
So as people learn to do that, they learn to develop a sense of trust in their bodies.
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:37.280
And of course, in the beginning, it feels like I am not going there, but over time they can learn.
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:44.320
Maybe I need a warm jacket or a pillow to hold or my pet to hold.
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:47.679
I need that warmth, that fur, whatever.
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:54.800
Listen to that and see if you can allow yourself in safe ways to take care of what your body needs.
00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:58.800
Yes, so much wisdom in that.
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:00.480
Thank you, Bethany.
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:04.159
I get to see you next week in 3D.
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:08.000
Yes, we can dream storm with a whole host of people.
00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:13.679
So, for folks listening, uh, if you listen to this episode the day it comes out, you can still register for the conference.
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:18.800
We'll be in Portland, Oregon, with the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Association.
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:22.400
It'll be Bethany and myself and my dear mama and Dr.
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:23.840
Jennifer Gomez.
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.400
Shout out to Jen for dreamstorming.
00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:29.920
We'll be doing it in the plenary, the four of us on Saturday.
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:32.559
So love to have you there and joining us.
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:37.599
And even if you're not, either way, whether you're there or not, let's keep the dream storm alive.
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.400
Let's bring together all this amazing and beautiful work.
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:41.119
Thank you.
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:57.679
Thank you, Bethany, for everything, for all the moments, for every all the, I want to say all the blood, sweat, and tears, but all the love and compassion and care you've poured into this research and into your work with clients and into your work training other therapists and teaching for so many decades.
00:52:57.760 --> 00:52:59.119
I so appreciate you.
00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:01.199
I know my clients appreciate you.
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:12.400
I can't confirm or deny any names, of course, but uh your name comes up in session, and people say, Oh, I'm just so grateful for her and for her work and more people like that, please.
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:15.519
So made my day.
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:17.440
Wonderful, wonderful human.
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.559
So thank you, thank you for coming back on the show and for sharing Finding Solid Ground with us in all the ways.
00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:28.559
So it's the book, the workbook, the website, findingsolidground.info, and then app coming soon.
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:29.119
Yes.
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:30.320
Thank you so much, Lisa.
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:31.519
Thank you, Bethany.
00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:32.639
I'll see you soon.
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:33.280
All righty.
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:34.400
Bye-bye.
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:40.559
You made it to the end of the episode.
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:42.960
Thanks for listening all the way through.
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:46.559
Now that you've been listening for a while, I'd love to hear back from you.
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:51.280
What's an idea or a story from this episode that sticks with you as we wrap up?
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:57.679
Or what's one small thing you can do today to choose a step in the direction of healing or growth?
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:08.239
Share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments below on YouTube, on Instagram at how we can heal, or send me a message at info at howwecanheal.com.
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:15.920
Also check out howwecanheal.com for free resources, trainings, and the full transcript of each show.
00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:23.840
If you're listening and loving the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you're listening right now.
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:30.880
If you're watching on YouTube, click the buttons to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the show with anyone it could benefit.
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:41.199
Before we wrap today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions, it's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis.
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:50.480
Your decisions are in your hands, and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing.
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:55.360
In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own, and opinions can change.
00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:59.360
Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:06.800
I'd like to thank our guests today again, and everyone who helped support this podcast directly and indirectly.
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:10.639
Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and the fur babes while I record.
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:16.960
Last and never least, I'd like to send some love to my big brother Matt, who passed away in 2002.
00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:20.960
He wrote this music and it makes my heart so very happy to share it with you here.
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:22.400
Till next time.