Borderline Dynamics Through a Trauma & Dissociation-Informed Lens with Dr. Janina Fisher

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Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast.
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Today, our guest is Dr.
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Janina Fisher, a psychotherapist, teacher, and international trainer supporting trauma recovery.
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For more than 30 years, Janina has helped the clinical world move away from the retelling of painful stories and instead orient to gentler, more effective ways of healing the nervous system, the body, and the parts of ourselves shaped by survival.
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As she talks about today, she's learned alongside pioneers like Dr.
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Judith Herman, who's been here on the podcast, Bessel Vanderkoelk, and Pat Ogden.
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But she often says her greatest teachers have been trauma survivors themselves.
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Janina is the creator of trauma-informed stabilization treatment, or TIST, a powerful parts-based approach that honors the wisdom of our survival responses while helping us transform the living legacy of trauma.
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She's also the author of four books, including her most recent, Embracing Our Fragmented Selves, a workbook for trauma survivors and therapists, which brings the wisdom she's gathered together in an accessible workbook.
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At the heart of her work is a hopeful truth.
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Healing isn't about the past, it's about working with the present.
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Please join me in welcoming Dr.
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Janina Fisher to the show.
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I want to give a big shout out and extend a huge thank you to the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, the ISSTD, for sponsoring this episode.
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If you've been listening to this podcast, you've heard me talk about ISSTD and the incredible researchers, clinicians, and advocates I've met during my time as a member and a volunteer there.
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The ISSTD has been delving into the science and best practice of treating trauma and dissociation for over 40 years, and they have a rich catalog of educational offerings for both professionals and non-professionals on their website, cfas.isst-d.org.
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If you're a mental health professional, I highly recommend you consider becoming a member of ISSTD.
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I'd love to see you during the live educational offerings and at the annual conference coming up in Portland, Oregon in March of 2026.
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Visit isst-d dot org to learn more.
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Thank you.
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I'm happy to be here.
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Yeah.
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I've seen you present, and I know you've been teaching and training for many, many years now.
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How'd you get started in this work?
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Oh my goodness.
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Before you were born.
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Yes.
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Now I can for sure.
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Yes.
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I had the good fortune to hear Judith Herman speak in 1989.
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Amazing.
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Which and it was the first week of my pre-doctoral fellowship.
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And I was a total, you know, I had years of schooling, but I was a total newbie as a therapist.
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And I heard her say, doesn't it make more sense that people suffer because of the real things that have happened to them than that they suffer because of their infantile fantasies?
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Yes.
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And I thought, yes, right.
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It's totally ridiculous that people that were thinking about infantile fantasies when real people are getting hurt.
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Yeah.
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And so I just in that moment I decided, okay, this is my work.
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Yeah.
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What a powerful moment and decision and such a moment of clarity from Dr.
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Herman, too.
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Like, of course, it makes so much sense when you hear a resounding truth like that.
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It ricochets into your bones.
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Yeah, yes.
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I mean, she has always been very, very passionate about trauma and trauma survivors.
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Yeah.
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And at that point, were you talking about it through the lens of trauma?
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When did you start seeing things through the lens of trauma and complex trauma and using those words too?
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Well, starting after hearing her one-hour lecture.
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And so I that started to be my way of thinking.
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Ironically, I was a friend socially of Bessel Vanderkoek's.
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He used to tease me all the time and say, because I was doing my doctoral research.
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And he kept saying, I don't know why you're hanging out with these research people.
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You should come and get involved in working with trauma like me.
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And it was kind of a joke between us.
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Little did we know it would end up being the journey we were on.
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Yeah, an entire field and such a central and important one.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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When I think about the leaders in the trauma field, most of them either were introduced by him to the world, or they were mentored by him.
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It's really interesting.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And it's a long and evolving history.
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And one of the things that that I appreciate about his work was when I was working in a group home while I was still in college, I was working with kids with just layers of diagnoses, right?
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They would have an attachment-related diagnosis, they would have an oppositional-related diagnosis, they would have an intentional and a mood and a maybe there was a PDSD thrown in there, but usually not.
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And then in 2005, the developmental trauma proposition for it to go into the DSM came out that he had written.
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And that was really informative and helpful for me because it put words to what I was seeing and how I already understood it.
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I knew, okay, look at what's happened to these young people.
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They're 11 and their parent is incarcerated and they've been exposed to drugs and utero, or they've like all the just layers of things they had already been through from a fetus until their 11-year-old self in front of me.
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And so to think of things in this broader, more open way of of course what happens to us is going to impact our mood, our attention, our sense of self, our relationships, even our employment at a certain point in time.
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And so that wider lens, I think when you're trained in trauma to any degree or depth, you can see it everywhere.
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You can see it in everyday people, you can see it more clearly in clients.
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And that's really helpful when we have the context of what happened to you and we have the context of what's right about your response.
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How is your response or defense, if we're going to call it that, helping and protecting you?
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And then how can we work with it if it's also making life a little harder in the moment or more uncomfortable now?
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So we can start to see many diagnoses I've talked to, for example, Dr.
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Heather Hall on this podcast about dissociation and schizophrenia and trying to differentiate what's going on and get to the root of what's really presenting in front of us.
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And one of the things I've seen you engage in discussion around is borderline diagnoses and complex trauma.
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So I'm really curious to hear, just as a foundation, how would you even describe borderline dynamics to someone who's maybe not familiar with them?
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Well, um, that's really an interesting place to come at it.
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Because of course, you know, the way borderline personality has been described has always been so pathologized.
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Yes.
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And if I think about it, first of all, I've seen it as a trauma-related diagnosis since the early 90s.
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Yeah.
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And Judith Herman was the first person to raise that issue, and she was very passionate about that too.
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That borderline personality disorder should not be considered a personality disorder.
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It should be considered a trauma-related disorder.
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And in fact, she, Bessel Vanderkoek, and someone whose name I've forgotten, did the first study looking at the relationship between trauma and a diagnosis of borderline in 1989.
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Nice.
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And of course, it was completely ignored.
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They had amazing data.
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They interviewed 85 outpatients with a borderline diagnosis, and 85% of them, or something, 90% of them, had histories of abuse, and basically some kind of abuse.
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And everybody ignored it.
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But you don't get those kinds of percentages in research.
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But you don't get huge percentages.
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That study, those studies have been repeated numerous times.
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I have a very long list of them.
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And each time they've been completely ignored.
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So it's as if the powers that be are really attached to the borderline diagnosis.
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And somehow it makes it easier because they are very complex traumatized individuals.
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And as Judy Herman used to say, all of their symptoms make sense in a trauma context.
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Yes.
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So the primary, two primary symptoms are a terror of abandonment, inappropriate clinging, inappropriate need for attention, quote unquote.
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Which makes sense.
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If you're a child in a dangerous world, where you could be raped or beaten at any moment, and then the next most cardinal symptom is inappropriate anger, inappropriate, quote unquote.
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Yeah.
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Again, again, understandable as a trauma response, engaging in self-destructive behavior, which makes sense.
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If you grow up in a world that is violent and interpersonally destructive, how would you ever learn anything else?
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And you know, and if your body is used for all kinds of inappropriate purposes, why would you care if you hurt your body, right?
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And why would you care about living if you feel that you're about to be killed?
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Right.
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Or crushed or humiliated.
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And so all the symptoms make sense.
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And you know, it's interesting because if you actually look at the symptoms, there is also at the very bottom of the symptom list, there is dissociation.
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And a colleague in Canada whose name I am blanking on at the moment, she has done a lot of research on borderline, on quote-unquote borderline patients and dissociation.
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And what she has found in study after study after study is that individuals who are labeled borderline have very high levels of dissociative symptoms.
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In fact, many of the subjects in her studies would have qualified for a diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder, but they'd already been diagnosed as borderline.
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And the more dissociative they were, the more unstable they were, which really makes perfect sense to any therapist.
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I just began treating borderline clients as trauma clients just to see what would happen.
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And shockingly, they did much better than when treated as borderlines.
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Interesting.
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Yeah.
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So what are some of the skills you brought from the trauma world?
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Was it mostly that context that we're talking about of, well, what happened and the three phases of treatment?
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What are some of the things to ground us as we're approaching someone who maybe shows up in our office diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and we see clearly has a significant trauma history?
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What are maybe some anchoring points of how to approach in this trauma-informed way?
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I can give you two answers.
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I'll tell first, I'll tell you what I do, and then I'll I can tell you what some more general things.
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What I've done over the years is created a treatment model based on the structural dissociation model of uh Anno Vanderhart and his colleagues.
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Yes.
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And so their model says that because we have a divided brain, all of us are already fragmented.
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We all have an instinctual left brain mediated going on with normal life part.
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I think anybody who has lived life will say, oh, absolutely, I recognize when I am so sick, I think I'm gonna die.
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When I'm in labor and delivery, when I've had a bereavement or a loss or a crisis in the family, there is this part of me that keeps on keeping on.
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And so their theory says that's our left brain self.
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The right brain self, which by the way, the right brain is nonverbal, holds not event memories, but the feeling memories of traumatic environments.
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Because traumatic events take place in scary environments.
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It's not like it's a nice, safe, lovely environment, and then something bad happens.
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Right.
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And very importantly, they say the right brain side develops subparts representing the survival defenses of fight, flight, freeze in fear, submit, or attach for survival.
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And with that theory, it became very easy to work with clients who had borderline diagnosis because when they were afraid of abandonment, couldn't last two hours between appointments, I could say your attached part gets very scared when there's a separation.
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The attached part needs to feel that somebody is there every minute of every day.
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And when their angry parts got angry at me because I was not able to soothe their attached parts 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I understood that as an angry part.
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And I could help the client notice your angry part is really pissed off that the attached part is hurting.
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And what I found was that when clients notice their parts rather than being driven by them, they really could manage.
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And also psychodynamic psychotherapy is very triggering for people with intense attachment, trauma-related attachment issues, right?
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Because it's all about our relationship.
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And so these clients tended to not have done well in traditional psychotherapy.
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But when it was the therapist and client noticing the parts, right?
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Notice the part and notice you noticing the part, right?
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She's really scared of that, you know, dot dot dot.
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And I found that when clients could notice these parts, when they could notice the suicidal part, that's because I think that's also what makes therapists leery of taking clients with borderline diagnoses because of the risk of self-harm and suicide.
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But in this way of working, the suicidal part is offering mercy, not death, it's saying, hey, I got a parachute, you want to borrow it, or I think you should use your parachute today.
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And I found that when when I talked about suicidal parts instead of your suicidality, that everything calmed down.
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You know, it's one thing to buy into your suicidal parts, um, sort of uh marketing strategy of saying, oh, you'll feel relief, you won't feel any pain, but it's another thing to think that this part is trying to kill me to get me some relief.
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And I began to reframe suicidality as a crisis of confidence that the fight part didn't trust the client to be able to tolerate the feelings, and so it was gonna take over and solve that problem.
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Yeah.
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And again, uh when it's I think it to me, it's still magical what happens when clients begin to relate to these intense reactions and impulses as communications from parts.
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When you're outlining all the symptoms of borderline personality disorder, you know, a lot of people think of that push and pull feeling.
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I know there's the book that was written years ago, I hate you, don't leave me, that conflict of so much emotion and so much intensity that can come into connection.
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And when you actually contain that or deconstruct it, right, rather than diving into it and swimming around in all of that suicidality and the go away and the come here and the I need to call you in the middle of the night or whatever it is, that can feel really overwhelming, not just for clients experiencing it, but also for therapists.
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And if we don't have some anchor point of how are we working with this and what's the context, then we can end up just feeling overwhelmed as well.
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But there's a sense of widening of perspective, I hear, in just bringing that complex trauma and trauma-informed perspective, but also dissociation informed perspective and neurological perspective to zoom out and go, okay, let's look at what's happening and what's happened here.
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Even if we're not mapping it directly to the past together in this moment, you are as the therapist holding that lens and highlighting, okay, here's this part that's responsible.
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Responding to trauma in this way with fight, with freeze, with fawn, with all of the ways we know we do this.
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And when you just identify, hey, can you notice this part?
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Sometimes that deconstruction and that distance helps us to not feel like we're drowning in the feeling, going crazy.
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Yeah, such a beautiful way to provide some space and context.
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And so I'd imagine that sometimes immediately or with a little bit of time, people start to feel a little more grounded, being able to say, oh, here's the suicidal part of me that's really going for an intense solution.
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And maybe I can actually tolerate some of this feeling and get to the other side and still be alive.
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Right.
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And what I do is I ask clients to thank the suicidal part for offering, because the method that I've developed, which is called TIST, which stands for trauma-informed stabilization treatment, the crux of it is not only the parts work, but the goal of healing via creating healthy attachment relationships with one's parts.
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So if it all starts with a traumatic attachment environment, it ends with a healthy, secure attachment relationship with ourselves.
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When people get there, it's a beautiful thing.
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Do you find yourself offering a lot of psychoeducation in sessions around attachment, providing that context or engaging, I'm sure at times with child parts.
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What does it look like to build that map of security over time with a client?
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Well, interesting.
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It involves a little psychoeducation, but mostly it's the mindful noticing.
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Yes.
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Right?
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Yes.
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And I think given what you do, you'd understand that perfectly.
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And it's a relationship that doesn't have the hostility.
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Most people when they first think about having parts, they say, Well, I wish they'd all go away and leave me alone.
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It's a very hostile relationship.
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I wish they were dead.
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Um and so to get from I wish they were dead to I accept them with loving kindness is hugely healing.
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But what we get there really through the mindful building of a relationship.
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So then they begin to see, oh yes, my depressed part helped me to get through those days where I just had to do what I was told and suck it up.
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Yeah.
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My suicidal part gave me hope that there was a way out.
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And they begin to feel some gratitude to these parts.
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They have a part that's very afraid or very agoraphobic, and they begin to think, oh my god, if I hadn't been scared, I would have been in deeper trouble because being scared was necessary in a dangerous world.
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And so there's this appreciation for the parts that develops over time.
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Yeah.
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And I appreciate that it can start with just noticing, just noting, right?
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Like an entire meditation practice could just be noticing, you know, not even with eyes closed, seated, but just wherever you are, just noticing, noticing taste or texture or where your thoughts go or anything.
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And I just remember a client that I worked with and I didn't notice, but I kept saying, noting, note that, note that, note that.
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And so it became a really central part of the therapy was just noted, noted.
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Like I hear the message, I receive it, maybe I'm even going to write it down.
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And that can build, even though it's noticing or noting can be challenging.
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But then it can become neutral.
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There's not a reaction or response to it.
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It's just, okay, I'm noticing anger, I'm noticing suicidality, I'm noticing any range of emotion or thought or experience.
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But that starts to broaden it and I think can naturally set the stage for that sense of compassion or loving-kindness or gratitude for the function of that thing that we're noticing.
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So it broadens the space.
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Again, I just keep thinking as you're talking of rather than diving into this well of all of the reactions and emotions all at once and trying to swim around in it and feeling lost or like you're drowning, it's like, okay, let's make some space here and find some solid ground on the sideline and take a look and listen and notice.
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And then it all goes, oh, okay.
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This actually starts to make some sense of where these things are coming from.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:05.119
So even if you're not offering that education of, okay, well, there's the fight response and there's the flea response and there's the attached crap, like even if you're not using that language or starting with that, you're making space for it and allowing it to come up and out and through and honoring it.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:06.000
Right.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:16.880
And the way it works is let's say there are a bunch of over different overwhelming feelings all coming up at the same time.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:21.839
I ask the client, notice all these parts, right?
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.599
And they're all freaking out.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:28.720
And then notice you noticing them.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:34.319
And when the client can notice the parts, which is this is really meditation, right?
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.559
Yeah, right, right.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:46.480
When they can notice the parts and they can notice them noticing the parts, everything starts to settle.
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:58.559
And then I ask them to keep noticing the parts and to stay, to stay with those parts.
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:08.000
Because, you know, when our clients were young, nobody stayed with, nobody noticed, for at all, nobody noticed.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.920
So the noticing in itself is reparative.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:12.720
Yes.
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:14.720
Nobody stayed.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:29.039
And then when they're able to stay in this relationship for a couple or three minutes, I say, can you care about how this part feels?
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:30.640
Yes, yes.
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:40.079
And to my amazement, if they really are in that noticing space, they said, Yeah.
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:40.799
Yeah.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.680
I care that this part is ashamed.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:47.680
I care that this part is sad.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:50.720
I care that this part is scared.
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:51.279
Yes.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:59.599
And I even remember a client who said, Yeah, I care about this part that's so angry and mean.
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.599
I care about her feelings.
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:36.240
And somehow, I don't quite know how, but I think maybe because it's this sort of spaciousness, yes, fundamental spaciousness, clients can connect what's going on here to the traumatic environment and feel a sense of of course they feel X, Y, and Z without getting overwhelmed by the emotions.
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:38.000
Yeah, again, it just falls into line.
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:38.720
Makes so much sense.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.240
Of course, they're angry, of course, they're hurt, of course, they're running, of course, they're hiding, of course, they're looking for someone.
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:45.519
Exactly.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:52.960
And if they get overwhelmed, I have them notice that as the parts overwhelm.
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:53.759
Hmm.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:04.559
So that always they can go back to being the noticer rather than becoming the parts.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:06.400
Yeah, beautiful.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:07.359
Yeah.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:14.640
I was going to ask you about the role of neglect, but you just started speaking to it in that no one's noticing, right?
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:16.640
No one's responding to needs.
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:32.319
Whether that's looking like abuse or neglect, it ends up being a neglect of that basic attachment need, that need for security and responsiveness and calming and connection and all of the things that uh, quote, good enough parent can provide most of the time.
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:36.640
And so it just makes me think about the role of mindfulness.
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.440
Christine Fourner, you might know, we've had her on the podcast.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:41.680
She and I talk about this as securefulness.
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:47.519
It's like mindfulness, but it's also like parenting yourself, your younger traumatized self, right?
00:31:47.680 --> 00:32:02.640
Because we're noticing the thought, we're noticing the reaction that's rooted in a trauma response, maybe even noticing the connection or the memory to the trauma, but we're being with it in a way like a loving parent would, of like, hey, I'm here.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.839
I got you.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.640
We can breathe through this or we can resource through this.
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:28.000
And some sense of companionship, some sense of connection, even when that's just within ourselves, we're providing that sense of presence or connection with the parts of ourselves or the memories or the experiences or the brain functions that are expressing hurt, are responding to trauma.
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:28.960
Right.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:29.839
Right.
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:37.680
They're the parts are reliving the nonverbal feeling memories of the trauma.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:45.759
And those nonverbal feeling memories I find most often with these types of diagnoses, they don't feel like they're in the past.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.519
They feel very present.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:48.319
Right.
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:59.920
And so that also spaciousness to offer a different experience in the present or just offer neutrality in the present can help start to shift that.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:13.119
So it's not the always going in the background or foreground feeling or the mix of feelings and dynamics that are truly from past experiences and relationships.
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:14.880
Right, right, right.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:15.920
Yes.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:18.160
Exactly.
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:31.440
So what do you see when someone's going through a process of therapy and they're healing from maybe they came with a diagnosis of borderline personality and you're treating them in your model and in this trauma and dissociation-informed way?
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:33.440
What do you see start to change?
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:38.960
What improves in terms of their experience of life, their what they share with you?
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:43.200
It depends on the person in the parts, of course.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:49.200
What I notice is that people are more stable.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:34:11.280
Like one of the most important things in trauma treatment, regardless of method, is helping people to recognize that they're triggered, and that whether it's their parts or their feeling memories, whatever language we want to use, they're triggered.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:25.440
And that when they interpret triggering as a you know, as a communication of what their present lives are, it's demoralizing and overwhelming.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.679
And it also means that reality is always distorted by the triggering.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:41.920
And so that's why the first thing is how to seeing how things settle just by recognizing, triggering signs that they're triggered.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:35:05.119
And then there's a settling that comes with recognizing the parts, because I think it's so hard when people don't know what's going on, they interpret it as some terrible defect in themselves, or sometimes terrible defects in everybody around them, right?
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:15.519
But it's like somebody has to be at fault here, and so just getting that basic what I call it's the logic of trauma.
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:16.719
Yes, right.
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:28.239
The logic of trauma is that there are triggers, you're gonna get triggered, and what you're going to feel are feeling memories.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:28.800
Yeah.
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:36.800
Beginning to get that, like, okay, this is a feeling memory.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:46.400
It's amazing that most people do not feel misunderstood or dismissed or empathically failed.
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.199
They're relieved to know its memory.
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.800
It's like, oh thank God.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:53.679
Yes.
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.440
Yeah, that context can be really helpful.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:58.880
Right.
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:04.960
And then getting the parts part and beginning to recognize.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:05.920
I mean, it depends.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:12.719
I have a client who has DID and probably has a hundred parts.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:18.719
It's very hard to go through a minute of her day without some part being triggered.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:19.840
Yeah.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:30.880
But still, I would say the quality of her life has improved mostly because she can see what's real.
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:37.039
And she can see, oh, actually, I have a wonderful life.
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:41.519
I just feel like crap because I'm triggered.
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:51.280
I'm having a bad day because my parts are having a bad day, not because I've once again failed to have a good day.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:37:04.000
Yeah, so building some sense of perspective and traction and stability over time that again allows more spaciousness, more room for those feelings without them becoming everything.
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:05.599
Right, right.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:19.679
And another very important aspect of TIST is we teach clients that negative judgmental thoughts are the thoughts of a judgmental part.
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:31.039
So that, you know, the freedom to hear a negative thought as just a part really helps.
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:33.599
Again, not as absolute reality.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:35.679
It's just one perspective.
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.280
There's room for so much more.
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:39.760
There's room for other things that are different.
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:46.960
And I think about that role of, you know, people talk about uh internal critic, even in everyday life and everyone.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:55.199
And it's like if we can relate to that as it's just a voice, it's not reality.
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:02.239
And if we can leave room for so many, someone asked me on a podcast, how would you rebrand the inner critic?
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:10.159
And I said, the inner celebrant, I would just make it like you've got someone on your shoulder in your brain that's just like, dang, girl, look at you go.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:11.920
Wow, you look amazing today.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.199
Hey, you're smart.
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:20.480
You know, like it leaves room for something else and even something positive that that that can exist.
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:21.679
Right.
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:27.280
And really in just the internal critic is a protector part.
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:38.880
Because what it's doing is getting clients to adhere to the rules of a dangerous environment.
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:42.000
And usually to try to get attachment needs met.
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:49.519
Like if you fit into this form, maybe you will get the need met, the attachment or the whatever it is that you're seeking.
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.280
They don't want to be killed.
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:56.000
Yeah.
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:57.599
Yeah, that's very real.
00:38:58.320 --> 00:38:58.480
Yeah.
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:00.559
Or tortured or raped, right?
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:02.800
Like you said, like these are things to avoid.
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:04.719
I think everyone can agree.
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:06.320
Avoid at any cost, right?
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:07.920
Okay, inner critic, that's great.
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:10.719
If it's gonna help protect me, I'll take it.
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:11.840
Yeah.
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.320
So we see the things that clients struggle with.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:37.920
And I think one thing that's helpful in our world today is that even though it's challenging for the collective to see and digest and process, we are starting to see more of the realities of abuse that happen, uh, that have happened behind closed doors, that people are speaking about, that there's evidence of that we're starting to digest as a society.
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:44.159
Like this awful abuse of people happens, children, women, all kinds of people around the world.
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:58.320
When we start to see that, we can then look to these tools and use what's been growing in the world of complex trauma and search for healing and make choices towards healing.
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:02.079
What do you see clinicians struggling with the most these days?
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:05.039
I know you offer training, supervision consultation.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.639
What are you hearing clinicians asking for help with?
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:22.159
I mean, it's so interesting because most of the time, clinicians are asking for help based on very old models.
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:31.119
So the majority of questions are: how do I get my client to connect to their emotions?
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:35.840
How do I get my client to connect to their body sensations?
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.519
And I say, I don't try because that's that's about me.
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:42.960
That's not about the client.
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:43.519
Yes.
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.159
I think, hold on, I have an applause button here.
00:40:51.679 --> 00:41:20.000
And and so those are the majority of questions, are really questions about clients who don't fit in to our existing models, which unfortunately our existing models are premised on the idea that all clients will like the model and they will have the and they'll have the capacity to engage in it.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:31.199
Whereas I say, well, the reason your client can't connect to emotion is that it's dangerous to connect to emotion in an unsafe world, right?
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:42.800
So long before the client ever met you, the client's body learned to disconnect from emotion.
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:56.800
And the client is not holding out on you because the client is experiencing having survived in a particular way.
00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:57.360
Yeah.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:10.880
And you know, the wonderful thing about this way of working with parts is that the the parts actually have emotion.
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:14.159
So so I say, what does your client complain about?
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:18.880
What does your client talk about when they come to session?
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:25.280
Because whatever that is, is what the client's interested in.
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:26.159
Yes.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:27.519
Yeah.
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:39.519
So in TIST, we say, okay, let's be interested in this part that has been very up this week.
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:52.960
Whether it's a part with negative thoughts, a part that you know that's afraid of bad weather, whatever kind of part it is, let's be interested in it.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:58.639
Because it's alive in the moment, it's activated, it's up, it's responding to something.
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:00.559
Right, exactly.
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:01.280
Right.
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:10.320
And it's in the best position to be receptive to the client's interest in it.
00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:29.679
And that's also just a very, very simple uh again, people, you know, anyone can use it with themselves, a therapist can use it without training in any of these models, is helping people to be curious.
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:31.280
Yes, right.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:48.800
So I teach my clients every distressing thought, feeling, or physical reaction is a communication from a part, and that part needs to be noticed and needs someone to be interested.
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:49.519
Right?
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:53.840
Just interest, nothing nothing too scary.
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:54.719
Yeah.
00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:04.960
And then usually we go to curiosity, meaning the state of Curiosity, not the you know why kind of curiosity, right?
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:13.119
Right, and uh interest and curiosity change our states, yes, right?
00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:39.039
So we're really helping a client learn to regulate without doing it through a bunch of skills, and by the way, I'm nothing against skills, but what I do think doesn't work for trauma is to teach skills unrelated to what the client is experiencing.
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:41.119
Yes, it's a miss, right?
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:49.840
It's like they're in one place and you're talking about a skill that that doesn't connect in the moment or isn't what they need at that time, right?
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:51.199
Exactly.
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:52.400
Exactly.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:45:06.079
And that that idea of teach skills as the client expresses the need for something that can help in that moment.
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:07.039
Yeah.
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:12.559
And then it could be any kind of skill.
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:20.079
It could be notice the part, it could be just notice the feeling of your feet on the ground.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:21.679
It could be anything.
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:24.400
Yeah, but it's responsive, right?
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:35.039
So it's attachment informed in that way because it's hey, I hear you, I'm listening, I'm interested, let's be curious, and then hey, let's try feeling our feet on the floor.
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:36.159
How does that go?
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:36.719
Right.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:37.760
Oh, it helps.
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:38.800
Okay, great.
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:39.840
Oh, it doesn't help.
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.000
Okay, let's try something else.
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:43.519
Exactly.
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:49.599
And I love the feet on the floor because usually it's either triggering or it's helpful.
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:50.400
Right.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:46:06.079
And I try to get people to notice even things that are 10% helpful because there's nothing that's gonna give them total relief in 30 seconds.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:07.039
Right.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:08.559
Yeah.
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:20.159
So what would you say to someone listening who's raising their hand, like I've experienced complex trauma and I've had a borderline diagnosis, I'm looking for treatment, I haven't found the right therapist yet.
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:25.199
What do you recommend people look for in a therapist or where do you send them?
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:39.360
I would suggest that they ask I mean the thing is the child is very hard, that they ask the therapist if they have experience working with trauma.
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:40.400
Yes.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:42.000
Part one.
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:52.239
And part two, have they had any specialized training in in psychotherapy for trauma?
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:53.039
Yes.
00:46:53.840 --> 00:47:00.719
Because almost every therapist I've ever met will say, Oh yes, I work with trauma.
00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:07.119
But often that means tell me the story of what happened, right?
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:11.280
Feel the feelings, and it will resolve.
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:14.480
And that was a wish.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:17.199
That's what we wished for in the 90s.
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:25.280
We thought, you know, I call it the hydraulic theory of this psychotherapy, you get it up and out, but it didn't work, right?
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:29.679
Because it was still in the brain, in the body, yeah.
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:55.199
And so they need to find someone, I mean, I would also recommend asking a therapist if they would consider borderline personality disorder as a trauma disorder or work with them as a trauma case, not a personality disorder case.
00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:59.199
Yeah, that's a very direct and telling question.
00:47:59.599 --> 00:47:59.840
Yeah.
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:08.000
And one caveat every once in a while I encounter someone who's attached to the borderline diagnosis.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:08.639
Sure.
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:20.079
And so even though I don't like it, if they want it, right?
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:22.400
Yeah, so be it.
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:23.519
That's fine.
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:24.079
Okay.
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:30.239
What would you say to someone who's looking for training in this or in your model?
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:35.280
Oh, I would say definitely come train with us.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:47.599
My model is actually now being taught in one, two, three, four five different countries.
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:55.679
So in the US and in English speaking countries, it's taught by the Academy for Therapy Wisdom.
00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:56.239
Okay.
00:48:56.719 --> 00:49:01.519
Actually, if people go to my website, they'll see all the different trainings.
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:13.679
It's also we're running trainings in virtually in France, Mexico, Germany, and Italy.
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:14.559
Great.
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:27.360
And it's just amazing to see how therapists are taking it and using it and are excited about it.
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:28.000
Yeah.
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:30.159
And that's plenty.
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:33.119
You know, spreading trainings out throughout the world is plenty of work.
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:36.400
Is there anything else you want to share that you have coming up?
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:38.639
Any projects, trainings, writings?
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:43.039
Well, I just published my fourth book.
00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:45.440
I just I'm sad, I think I have it.
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:46.880
Congratulations.
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:47.760
That's great.
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:48.639
Right here.
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:49.840
Here's my baby.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:51.840
Yeah, the book babies.
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:53.360
There it is.
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:55.599
Embracing our fragmented selves.
00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:56.639
It's a workbook.
00:49:56.800 --> 00:49:57.280
Wonderful.
00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:06.239
Yeah, which is great because I wrote it so that it could be used by someone who was not in therapy.
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:06.800
Okay.
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:07.519
Right?
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:12.719
Because I don't want to assume that everyone has access to a therapist.
00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:22.239
So I wrote it for the survivor and for the therapist because I think it can be used jointly in therapy.
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:30.079
And I think it's helpful for therapists because it's a little, it really is a sort of primer on using TIST.
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:31.679
Yeah, great.
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:32.239
Yeah.
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.079
And folks can find that online.
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:37.039
We'll put the link to your website in the show notes as well.
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:42.239
I'm curious in doing this work, and like you said before, you alluded to, and it can be heavy.
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:47.760
These are people who've been through really significant abuse, the worst kinds of torture.
00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:51.920
What brings you hope in this work or in this life?
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:58.960
Well, you know, because our work isn't about the past.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:02.559
That's what trauma treatment used to look like.
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:04.239
It was all about the past.
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:08.960
But this is really about the present and the future.
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:25.840
And that's why I mean, I remember in The Body Keeps the Score, Bessel Vanderkox writes something like the problem in PTSD is not the past, it's the present.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:32.400
The present is sullied by the intrusion of the past.
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.719
And the goal is really to have the present be the present.
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:37.039
Yes.
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:38.719
And the past be the past.
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:39.599
Yeah.
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:40.400
Yeah.
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:41.679
To get to that point.
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:50.320
And I know this is spoken to in a number of different models where of course we can't change what happened, but our relationship to it in the moment is different.
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:53.760
We're maybe aware of what happened, but we're not reliving it.
00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:04.639
And we're able to connect with what's happening here and now with our, we can connect with ourselves internally, we can connect with each other, we can connect with the world, we can see beauty, all of it.
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:06.480
Exactly.
00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:07.760
Exactly.
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:08.559
Yeah.
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:11.199
Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.
00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.039
I really appreciate this conversation.
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:16.159
And thank you for all you've been doing for so many years now.
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:17.039
Thank you.
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:19.039
It's great to talk with you.
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:24.800
You made it to the end of the episode.
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:27.199
Thanks for listening all the way through.
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:30.719
Now that you've been listening for a while, I'd love to hear back from you.
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:35.519
What's an idea or a story from this episode that sticks with you as we wrap up?
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:41.519
What's one small thing you can do today to choose a step in the direction of healing your breath?
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:52.239
Share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments below on YouTube, on Instagram at How We Can Heal, or send me a message at info at how we can heal.com.
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:59.760
Also check out howweekenheal.com for free resources, trainings, and the full transcripts of each show.
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:08.079
If you're listening and loving the show, please leave us a review, Apple, Spotify, Audible, or whatever you're listening right now.
00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:14.719
If you're watching on YouTube, click the buttons to like, subscribe, and keep share the channel with anyone that can benefit.
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:25.280
Before we wrap today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions, it's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis.
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:34.559
Your decisions are in your hands, and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing.
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:37.679
In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own.
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:39.599
Any opinions can change.
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:43.199
Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors.
00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:50.960
I'd like to thank our guests today again, and everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly.
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:54.639
Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and the perfect while I record.
00:53:55.920 --> 00:54:01.119
Another lady, I'd like to send some love to my great brother, who passed away in 2002.
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:04.960
He wrote this music, and it makes my heart feel very happy to share it with you here.
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:06.480
Till next time.