WEBVTT
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Organizational ecosystems actually function.
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A miscalculation?
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How so?
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Well, ethical relativism is not a bug in business management.
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It is an essential feature of survival.
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To understand why, we have to pull apart the critical distinction in the text between ethics and morals.
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Okay, let's break that down.
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Ethics is the overarching idea, right?
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The intrinsic desire to be a good actor in the market.
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Morals, on the other hand, are the specific, actionable rules that define allowable behavior on the ground.
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Right, the actual application.
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Exactly.
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I completely agree with you that the desire to be good, the ethics, can and should be universal.
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But the operational rules, the morals, must shift entirely depending upon the context, because the context determines the blast radius of a decision.
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But if the rules of engagement are constantly shifting based on who is in the room, how is the overarching principle actually guiding the organization?
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You are essentially describing a ship where the compass changes depending on the weather.
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Because the principle is the destination, but the specific rules are how you navigate the terrain.
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Let's look at the actual stakeholder map any modern corporation has to navigate.
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The source outlines this clearly.
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A company sits at the absolute center of at least eleven distinct entities competitors, media, government, environment, investors, retailers, employees, suppliers, customers.
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Right, clients, and the community at large.
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These relationships are deeply asymmetrical.
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Treating an institutional investor who requires precise forward-looking quarterly projections the exact same way you treat a local environmental ecosystem, which demands generational preservation, is fundamentally impossible.
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Because of the different time horizons.
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Yes.
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They operate on entirely different operational physics.
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The application of your values must be relative to the specific stakeholder you are engaging with, or the system collapses.
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I actually see why you think that, but let me give you a different perspective on how that plays out internally.
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Go ahead.
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When you argue that the rules of engagement must be relative to the stakeholder, you are institutionalizing a pathway for rationalization.
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The moment you introduce ethical relativism as a structural philosophy, you erode the internal corporate immune system.
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Erode the immune system?
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Yeah, because ethical lapses in business rarely start as massive Enron-level frauds.
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The text explicitly warns about this.
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They start as small, context-dependent compromises that slowly normalize bad behavior.
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Well Just think about it.
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If leadership communicates to its employees that radical honesty is the ultimate virtue internally, but simultaneously uses aggressive, legally dubious, but technically permissible tactics to bleed a competitor dry, the workforce is watching that.
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They see the disconnect.
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Right.
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They internalize that honesty is just a tool for leverage, not an actual principle.
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How can an organization maintain any cohesive corporate culture if its moral rules shift depending on the immediate objective?
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It breeds cynicism.
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And you think that cynicism destroys the company?
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It absolutely does because cynical employees stop reporting risks.
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That's a compelling argument, but have you considered that adjusting to context isn't inherently an ethical lapse?
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I well, you are conflating relativism with malice there.
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Applying a single uniform standard often completely ignores the nuanced realities of specific contexts and can actually inflict unnecessary harm.
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Harm?
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Okay, let's unpack that.
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How does applying a single standard of transparency, for example, harm those stakeholders?
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Let's map this on to a real-world scenario from the material involving two stakeholders, internal employees and the external media.
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Okay, lay it out.
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Imagine a company is facing a severe liquidity crisis.
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They need to execute a delicate, phased internal restructuring to avoid bankruptcy.
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Transparency with the employees is vital, right?
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Yes, obviously.
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Leadership needs to have vulnerable, open discussions with middle management about potential layoffs so they can adequately prepare their teams and cross-train essential functions.
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That is the ethical standard of care for the employee.
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Agreed.
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However, if you apply that exact same standard of absolute unvarnished transparency to the external media on the same timeline, you trigger a disaster.
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Because the market reacts.
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Exactly.
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The media publishes the restructuring plan, algorithmic traders dump the stock, the company's valuation plummets, creditors panic and pull their revolving credit lines, and suddenly the company is completely insolvent.
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So the transparency itself causes the collapse.
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Yes.
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By adhering to a single standard of transparency, you have just cost every single one of those employees their job.
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The context dictates the moral action.
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Concealing certain realities from the media in that specific moment isn't an ethical lapse or institutional rot.
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It is a highly calibrated protective mechanism for your most vulnerable internal stakeholder.
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Okay, that is a well-constructed scenario, but I would frame the mechanics of it quite differently.
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How so?
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What you're describing there isn't actually a shift in ethical standards.
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It's a shift in strategic communication in legal timing.
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The underlying ethical standard, which might be defined broadly as do no unjust harm, remains perfectly consistent across both interactions.
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But the action changes.
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The action adapts to the fiduciary timing of public disclosures, yeah.
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But your ethics didn't change.
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But when you adopt ethical relativism as your core philosophy, the explicit belief that ethics themselves depend entirely upon context, you legitimize a very different kind of behavior.
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Such as, well, you give managers the philosophical cover to say, well, in the context of our suppliers in developing nations, it's morally acceptable to delay our payments for 90 days to artificially boost our quarterly cash flow.
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That's an extreme example, though.
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But it happens.
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They rationalize it by saying, they rely on us heavily, they lack the legal resources to fight back, and our investors need the margin.
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That isn't nuanced stakeholder management.
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That is the exploitation of asymmetrical power, just disguised as contextual flexibility.
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But notice how your counterexample assumes ethical relativism always spirals into intentional exploitation.
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Relativism simply acknowledges that the weight of our operational obligations changes based on systemic pressures.
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Systemic pressures shouldn't change your baseline ethics, though.
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Let's look at the mechanics of your supplier example.
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What if paying that supplier on a 30-day term means the company violates a strict financial covenant with its government regulators regarding minimum cash reserves?
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Well, that's a planning failure.
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Maybe.
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But violating that covenant triggers an immediate, massive financial penalty that bankrupts the firm.
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The rigid adherence to a single moral rule, always pay suppliers in 30 days because it is universally right, fails to respect the holistic web of the company's survival.
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So you're saying the manager has to play a zero-sum game.
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Exactly.
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Ethical relativism allows the executive to look at the board and say, delaying payment harms the supplier, yes, but bankrupting the firm harms the supplier, the employees, the investors, and the community.
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It is utilitarian math in a closed system with finite resources.
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And this leads us perfectly into the mechanics of outcomes, specifically the divide in the text between short-term survival instincts and long-term profitability.
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Right, the time horizon problem.
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Consistent ethics is the actual engine of long-term success.
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A long-term perspective requires a broad view of profit maximization, understanding that the impact of a business decision may take years to fully manifest in the market.
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I agree that long-term vision is important.
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Right.
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And when an organization maintains a single, reliable ethical standard, it actively compounds goodwill.
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And the text defines goodwill not just as a warm, fuzzy PR metric.
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No, it's a financial asset.
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Exactly.
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It is a quantifiable, intangible asset on a balance sheet that represents a premium of trust.
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It encompasses brand equity, reputation, the frictionless retention of top-tier talent, and entrenched customer loyalty.
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I completely agree with the definition of goodwill.
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It is the premium the marketplaces on trust.
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But And goodwill operates like a complex mycelial network in a forest.
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It takes years of a consistent, stable environment to grow, and it connects everything underground.
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It is the buffer that protects a company when a crisis inevitably hits.
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Okay.
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I follow the analogy.
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If you randomly change the operating environment based on the context of your daily pressures, that network dies.
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Relativism destroys goodwill because external stakeholders can never accurately price their risk of doing business with you.
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Because they don't know what to expect?
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Yes.
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They don't know which version of the company is going to show up.
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If a local community doesn't know whether you will act as a rigorous environmental steward or a corner-cutting polluter this specific quarter, your brand value evaporates.
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See, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that framework as an absolute rule.
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Let me tell you why.
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Okay, go for it.
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You are designing a strategy for a theoretical long-term utopia, but biological and corporate organisms only survive in the short-term reality.
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We cannot ignore the mechanics of how capital markets actually function.
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But capital markets reward long-term stability too.
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Eventually.
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But stockholders demand short-term results because their capital is actively being measured against alternative investments every single day.
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The focus on maximizing periodic, quarterly, and annual profits isn't just greed.
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I'm not saying it's just greed.
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It is the fundamental requirement for maintaining access to capital.
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If you don't survive the short-term liquidity crunch, there is no long-term mycelial network of goodwill left to harvest.
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Ethical relativism acts as the shock absorber.
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A shock absorber that compromises your integrity?
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No, it allows managers to balance these aggressive, short-term temporal demands with long-term stakeholder needs without collapsing the entire enterprise.
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But yielding to short-term capital demands at the expense of consistent ethics is the exact mechanism that compromises an organization's structural integrity.
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How so, if it keeps them alive?
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Because when you optimize exclusively for the short-term, quarterly profit, you aren't just surviving.
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You are inherently borrowing against your long-term goodwill at exorbitant interest rates.
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You are trading permanent trust for temporary margin.
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Let's examine the reality of operational constraints where that trade-off is unavoidable, though.
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Imagine a CEO has an institutional investor demanding a 5% margin increase this quarter, threatening a proxy fight if it doesn't happen.
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Okay, high pressure from the board.
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Simultaneously, the local community is demanding a multimillion dollar reduction in noise pollution from a local manufacturing plant.
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If the CEO applies a single, rigid standard of maximize stakeholder well-being equally at all times, the math literally does not compute.
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Capital is finite.
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I see the bind, but relativism allows the manager to make the difficult temporal choice.
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They can say, in the context of this specific quarter, I must prioritize the stockholders' margin to secure the next round of funding and keep the company alive.
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And just ignore the community?
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No.
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That survival will ultimately allow me to build the quieter factory for the community next year.
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The rules of allowable actions must bend to the temporal financial reality of the business.
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I'm not convinced by that line of reasoning because you are again conflating resource allocation with ethical standards.
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How is that not an ethical dilemma?
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Because telling a community we legally cannot afford the factory upgrade this quarter due to cash constraints is a financial reality.
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It is a harsh truth, but it is honest.
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Right.
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Saying we will falsify or obscure our current noise emission data to appease the community while quietly boosting production to satisfy the stockholders is an ethical lapse.
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One is a budgetary constraint, the other is a violation of integrity.
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Okay, sure, falsifying data is wrong.
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If we accept ethical relativism as a corporate virtue, we undermine the very concept of compliance.
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Wait, how does relativism undermine compliance?
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Compliance is a legal baseline, not the totality of ethical decision making.
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Because compliance requires an objective framework.
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If you look at any of the major normative ethical theories in the text, whether you are looking at rule-based frameworks like deontology, or outcome-based ones like utilitarianism, they all exist to establish an objective baseline of human conduct.
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A baseline, yes.
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They suggest that there are universal truths in business, things like not defrauding clients, honoring contracts, maintaining safe labor conditions, and not poisoning the environment.
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These aren't situational reactions, they are the prerequisites for participating in a functioning market.
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I agree, those are prerequisites.
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When an organization operates consistently on these principles, it lowers the regulatory burden for everyone.
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But if society knows that a corporation's commitment to basic environmental safety is entirely contingent on whether they hit their Q3 revenue targets, global trust deteriorates.
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A functioning economy relies on the assumption that corporate actors share a consistent baseline of reality.
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Yes, a baseline of law is required.
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Absolutely.
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But true ethics is far more granular than just avoiding fraud or honoring contracts.
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Granular in what way?
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Ethics is fundamentally about how our internal values manifest in the highly complex, localized decisions we make every single day.
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And the daily decisions of a manager involve profound asymmetries.
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Back to the stakeholder map?
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Exactly.
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A decision affecting a massive multinational supplier has entirely different power dynamics than a decision affecting an unorganized group of local retailers.
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Because those relationships do not share the same physics, the application of values must adapt.
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I just don't see how.
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Well, a rigid adherence to a single standard of do no harm can sometimes paralyze an organization and actually harm stakeholders in the process.
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Walk me through the mechanics of that.
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Give me a concrete example of how a single ethical standard of do no harm directly causes paralysis or harm in a way that relativism solves.
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Okay.
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Let's take this standard of do no harm and apply it to the tension between competitors and customers.
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Let's say a business invests heavily in RD and launches a highly disruptive, superior, and drastically cheaper product.
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A market breakthrough.
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Right.
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The mechanics of this action deeply benefit the customers.
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It improves their quality of life, increases their purchasing power, and drives societal innovation.
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But simultaneously, this exact same action absolutely harms the competitors.
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It outcompetes them.
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It will erode their market share, potentially drive them out of business, and cost their employees their livelihoods.
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If a leader holds a single rigid ethical standard of do no harm to any stakeholder in our ecosystem, they are completely paralyzed.
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They literally cannot innovate.
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I see where you're going with this.
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Ethical relativism is the framework that allows the business to say, in the context of a free market, our moral obligation to provide transformative value to the customer supersedes the financial harm caused to the competitor.
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The context, the structure of capitalism itself, dictates the ethics.
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That's a really interesting point, though.
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Though I would frame the definition of harm completely differently there.
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How so?
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Competing effectively in a free market isn't causing ethical harm to a competitor.
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Harm, in the ethical sense, implies an injustice, a violation of rights, or deliberate wrongdoing.
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Providing a superior product isn't an injustice.
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It's financial harm, though.
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Sure, but the single ethical standard at play here is fair competition.
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You treat the competitor fairly by not engaging in corporate espionage or stealing their trade secrets.
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And you treat the customer fairly by offering an exceptional product at a good price.
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The standard of fairness remains entirely consistent across both interactions.
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Fair enough, but You are striving to be the best organizational actor in your interactions with all of them.
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The moment a leader dictates that ethics depends entirely upon context, you strip the organization of its internal compass.
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I don't think it strips the compass, it just calibrates it.
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It inadvertently tells your procurement officers that it's morally acceptable to look the other way on a supplier's labor violations if the context is a brutal fiscal quarter and you desperately need cheap materials.
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That is how the intangible asset of goodwill is systematically destroyed from the inside out.
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I think the core disconnect here is that you view relativism purely as a slippery slope to corruption and exploitation.
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I view it as an open door to it, yes.
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Whereas I view it as the only mechanism for realistic human balance.
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Let's examine the sheer scale of the word stakeholder.
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It encompasses individuals, entities, the environment, future generations, governments, and local communities.
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It's a massive web.
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It implies an almost infinite web of competing impacts.
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A single standard assumes an omniscient CEO who can perfectly foresee and balance how a single decision ripples across that entire web simultaneously without contradiction.
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Nobody is omniscient, but principles are principles.
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But relativism acknowledges the fundamental limitation of human leadership.
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It says I cannot perfectly satisfy the environmental lobby, the local tax base, and the institutional investor today.
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The physics won't allow it.
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So I will apply the ethical framework that best navigates the most immediate existential threat to the company so that we survive to fight another day.
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But if the most immediate existential threat is always the sole dictator of the ethical rule, then the company doesn't actually possess core values.
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It only possesses survival instincts.
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Survival is the prerequisite for value creation.
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But survival instincts do not build long-term enterprise value.
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Survival instincts do not build a resilient, positive attitude in the workforce.
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Top-tier talent, the engineers, the strategists, the innovators who actually drive long-term profit, they want to work for an organization that stands for something objective.
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I'm not sure that's their primary concern in a crisis.
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:26.000
They don't want to dedicate their careers to a company that constantly shifts its moral definitions based on which external stakeholders applying the most leverage on any given Tuesday.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:36.480
I would counter that top-tier talent primarily wants to work for a company that is agile enough to survive market volatility and consistently make payroll.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:41.200
The short-term focus on navigating immediate pressures isn't a moral failing.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.680
It's not a failing to survive, but it is to compromise your ethics to do it.
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:54.000
It is the oxygen that allows the business to exist long enough to actually engage in philanthropy, environmental stewardship, or community building.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.880
If you are entirely rigid, you snap.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:05.039
Ethical relativism gives managers the necessary flexibility to bend, to breathe, and to adapt to the asymmetrical demands of reality.
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.680
Well, as we begin to synthesize this discussion, my position remains firm.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:16.240
A single consistent ethical standard is the only reliable engine for enduring organizational success.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:19.039
And I maintain it's about navigating complexity.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:24.960
Right, but for me, it is the mechanism that ensures long-term profit maximization.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:39.839
By maintaining structural integrity in every single interaction, whether navigating a contract with a massive supplier, competing fairly against a rival, or reporting transparently to the government, a business compounds invaluable goodwill.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.240
That intangible premium of trust.
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:43.119
Exactly.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:52.319
That intangible but critical reputation, that deep-seated trust from the market, is the actual buffer that sustains a company through systemic shocks.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:21:06.079
Ultimately, a consistent standard is what lowers transaction costs and ensures that business and society can function properly together, built on a foundation of predictable integrity rather than shifting situational excuses.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:12.960
And my stance is that true business ethics requires the intellectual courage to navigate profound complexity.
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.799
Ethical relativism isn't an excuse for malicious behavior.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:24.480
It is the necessary highly calibrated framework for balancing the immense, often contradictory demands of a diverse stakeholder web.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.160
The realities of the ground game.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:27.119
Precisely.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:38.480
From institutional capital demanding quarterly yield to the global environment requiring long-term preservation, a rigid single standard simply cannot process the competing physics of the real world.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:49.759
Acknowledging that the application of ethics depends upon context empowers leaders to make the difficult, nuanced trade-offs that keep organizations alive, functioning, and capable of delivering value over time.
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:58.079
While we clearly diverge significantly on the structural application of these standards, I think there is a profound point of convergence to take away from this material.
00:21:58.319 --> 00:21:59.200
I agree, yeah.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:04.160
Ethics isn't just a theoretical exercise of knowing right from wrong in a vacuum.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:13.039
Both of us agree that it is fundamentally about the mechanics of how our internal values manifest in the high-stakes, everyday professional decisions we execute.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:17.440
It requires deep, intentional, and constant reflection from leadership.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.720
Absolutely.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:29.839
The tension between the short-term survival and the long-term ideal, between universal principles and granular contextual realities, is exactly where true leadership is forged.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:30.960
Well said.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.359
It is not a static equation you solve once and walk away from.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.599
It is a dynamic living balance that requires constant recalibration every single day.
00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:56.240
So true.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:05.440
We encourage you to reflect on your own operational values and how they influence your approach to the complex dilemmas you face in your own professional landscape.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:13.920
We aren't here to declare a definitive winner or hand you a simplistic answer, but rather to give you the structural frameworks to weigh these realities yourself.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.839
It's up to you to apply them.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.680
Think back to that skyscraper we mentioned at the very beginning of the show.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:27.039
Does it stand tall because every single steel beam rigidly follows the exact same unyielding rule of load bearing physics?
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:35.200
Or does it survive the Category 5 storm precisely because the engineers designed it to sway, bend, and yield to the shifting pressures of the wind?
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:36.559
That is the question.
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.279
The answer might just depend on which floor you're standing on.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.240
Organizational ecosystems actually function.
00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:04.000
A miscalculation?
00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:04.879
How so?
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.279
Well, ethical relativism is not a bug in business management.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:11.839
It is an essential feature of survival.
00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:18.239
To understand why, we have to pull apart the critical distinction in the text between ethics and morals.
00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:19.679
Okay, let's break that down.
00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:22.000
Ethics is the overarching idea, right?
00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:25.359
The intrinsic desire to be a good actor in the market.
00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:30.960
Morals, on the other hand, are the specific, actionable rules that define allowable behavior on the ground.
00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:32.479
Right, the actual application.
00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:33.439
Exactly.
00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:38.799
I completely agree with you that the desire to be good, the ethics, can and should be universal.
00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:47.679
But the operational rules, the morals, must shift entirely depending upon the context, because the context determines the blast radius of a decision.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:55.920
But if the rules of engagement are constantly shifting based on who is in the room, how is the overarching principle actually guiding the organization?
00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:59.759
You are essentially describing a ship where the compass changes depending on the weather.
00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:05.760
Because the principle is the destination, but the specific rules are how you navigate the terrain.
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:10.879
Let's look at the actual stakeholder map any modern corporation has to navigate.
00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.519
The source outlines this clearly.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:25.920
A company sits at the absolute center of at least eleven distinct entities competitors, media, government, environment, investors, retailers, employees, suppliers, customers.
00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.200
Right, clients, and the community at large.
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:32.079
These relationships are deeply asymmetrical.
00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:45.439
Treating an institutional investor who requires precise forward-looking quarterly projections the exact same way you treat a local environmental ecosystem, which demands generational preservation, is fundamentally impossible.
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:47.280
Because of the different time horizons.
00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:48.079
Yes.
00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:51.599
They operate on entirely different operational physics.
00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:58.400
The application of your values must be relative to the specific stakeholder you are engaging with, or the system collapses.
00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:04.400
I actually see why you think that, but let me give you a different perspective on how that plays out internally.
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:05.120
Go ahead.
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:13.280
When you argue that the rules of engagement must be relative to the stakeholder, you are institutionalizing a pathway for rationalization.
00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:21.360
The moment you introduce ethical relativism as a structural philosophy, you erode the internal corporate immune system.
00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:23.120
Erode the immune system?
00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.719
Yeah, because ethical lapses in business rarely start as massive Enron-level frauds.
00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:31.360
The text explicitly warns about this.
00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:37.520
They start as small, context-dependent compromises that slowly normalize bad behavior.
00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:39.599
Well Just think about it.
00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:58.719
If leadership communicates to its employees that radical honesty is the ultimate virtue internally, but simultaneously uses aggressive, legally dubious, but technically permissible tactics to bleed a competitor dry, the workforce is watching that.
00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:00.159
They see the disconnect.
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:00.879
Right.
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:06.719
They internalize that honesty is just a tool for leverage, not an actual principle.
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:14.400
How can an organization maintain any cohesive corporate culture if its moral rules shift depending on the immediate objective?
00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:16.080
It breeds cynicism.
00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.319
And you think that cynicism destroys the company?
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:22.400
It absolutely does because cynical employees stop reporting risks.
00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:28.159
That's a compelling argument, but have you considered that adjusting to context isn't inherently an ethical lapse?
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:32.000
I well, you are conflating relativism with malice there.
00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:40.639
Applying a single uniform standard often completely ignores the nuanced realities of specific contexts and can actually inflict unnecessary harm.
00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:41.439
Harm?
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:43.520
Okay, let's unpack that.
00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:49.120
How does applying a single standard of transparency, for example, harm those stakeholders?
00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:56.479
Let's map this on to a real-world scenario from the material involving two stakeholders, internal employees and the external media.
00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:57.840
Okay, lay it out.
00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.520
Imagine a company is facing a severe liquidity crisis.
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:06.240
They need to execute a delicate, phased internal restructuring to avoid bankruptcy.
00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:08.879
Transparency with the employees is vital, right?
00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:09.840
Yes, obviously.
00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:18.800
Leadership needs to have vulnerable, open discussions with middle management about potential layoffs so they can adequately prepare their teams and cross-train essential functions.
00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:21.360
That is the ethical standard of care for the employee.
00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:22.079
Agreed.
00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:31.360
However, if you apply that exact same standard of absolute unvarnished transparency to the external media on the same timeline, you trigger a disaster.
00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:33.040
Because the market reacts.
00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:33.920
Exactly.
00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:45.519
The media publishes the restructuring plan, algorithmic traders dump the stock, the company's valuation plummets, creditors panic and pull their revolving credit lines, and suddenly the company is completely insolvent.
00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:48.399
So the transparency itself causes the collapse.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:49.040
Yes.
00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:55.920
By adhering to a single standard of transparency, you have just cost every single one of those employees their job.
00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.560
The context dictates the moral action.
00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:04.959
Concealing certain realities from the media in that specific moment isn't an ethical lapse or institutional rot.
00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.680
It is a highly calibrated protective mechanism for your most vulnerable internal stakeholder.
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:14.160
Okay, that is a well-constructed scenario, but I would frame the mechanics of it quite differently.
00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:14.879
How so?
00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:19.199
What you're describing there isn't actually a shift in ethical standards.
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.279
It's a shift in strategic communication in legal timing.
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:32.720
The underlying ethical standard, which might be defined broadly as do no unjust harm, remains perfectly consistent across both interactions.
00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:34.399
But the action changes.
00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:38.879
The action adapts to the fiduciary timing of public disclosures, yeah.
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:40.720
But your ethics didn't change.
00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:51.600
But when you adopt ethical relativism as your core philosophy, the explicit belief that ethics themselves depend entirely upon context, you legitimize a very different kind of behavior.
00:05:51.839 --> 00:06:04.560
Such as, well, you give managers the philosophical cover to say, well, in the context of our suppliers in developing nations, it's morally acceptable to delay our payments for 90 days to artificially boost our quarterly cash flow.
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:06.399
That's an extreme example, though.
00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:07.600
But it happens.
00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:15.839
They rationalize it by saying, they rely on us heavily, they lack the legal resources to fight back, and our investors need the margin.
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.800
That isn't nuanced stakeholder management.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:24.800
That is the exploitation of asymmetrical power, just disguised as contextual flexibility.
00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:31.839
But notice how your counterexample assumes ethical relativism always spirals into intentional exploitation.
00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:38.879
Relativism simply acknowledges that the weight of our operational obligations changes based on systemic pressures.
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.879
Systemic pressures shouldn't change your baseline ethics, though.
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.040
Let's look at the mechanics of your supplier example.
00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:56.000
What if paying that supplier on a 30-day term means the company violates a strict financial covenant with its government regulators regarding minimum cash reserves?
00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:57.759
Well, that's a planning failure.
00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:58.720
Maybe.
00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:06.480
But violating that covenant triggers an immediate, massive financial penalty that bankrupts the firm.
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:17.439
The rigid adherence to a single moral rule, always pay suppliers in 30 days because it is universally right, fails to respect the holistic web of the company's survival.
00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.560
So you're saying the manager has to play a zero-sum game.
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:21.839
Exactly.
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:34.399
Ethical relativism allows the executive to look at the board and say, delaying payment harms the supplier, yes, but bankrupting the firm harms the supplier, the employees, the investors, and the community.
00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.000
It is utilitarian math in a closed system with finite resources.
00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:46.800
And this leads us perfectly into the mechanics of outcomes, specifically the divide in the text between short-term survival instincts and long-term profitability.
00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:48.560
Right, the time horizon problem.
00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.800
Consistent ethics is the actual engine of long-term success.
00:07:52.959 --> 00:08:03.360
A long-term perspective requires a broad view of profit maximization, understanding that the impact of a business decision may take years to fully manifest in the market.
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:05.920
I agree that long-term vision is important.
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:06.480
Right.
00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:12.720
And when an organization maintains a single, reliable ethical standard, it actively compounds goodwill.
00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.879
And the text defines goodwill not just as a warm, fuzzy PR metric.
00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:18.800
No, it's a financial asset.
00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:19.600
Exactly.
00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:25.680
It is a quantifiable, intangible asset on a balance sheet that represents a premium of trust.
00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:32.879
It encompasses brand equity, reputation, the frictionless retention of top-tier talent, and entrenched customer loyalty.
00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.759
I completely agree with the definition of goodwill.
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.679
It is the premium the marketplaces on trust.
00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.360
But And goodwill operates like a complex mycelial network in a forest.
00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:52.960
It takes years of a consistent, stable environment to grow, and it connects everything underground.
00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.600
It is the buffer that protects a company when a crisis inevitably hits.
00:08:58.399 --> 00:08:58.639
Okay.
00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:00.480
I follow the analogy.
00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:08.559
If you randomly change the operating environment based on the context of your daily pressures, that network dies.
00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:17.279
Relativism destroys goodwill because external stakeholders can never accurately price their risk of doing business with you.
00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:19.039
Because they don't know what to expect?
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:19.759
Yes.
00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.120
They don't know which version of the company is going to show up.
00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:33.919
If a local community doesn't know whether you will act as a rigorous environmental steward or a corner-cutting polluter this specific quarter, your brand value evaporates.
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.919
See, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that framework as an absolute rule.
00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:38.960
Let me tell you why.
00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:40.080
Okay, go for it.
00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:50.080
You are designing a strategy for a theoretical long-term utopia, but biological and corporate organisms only survive in the short-term reality.
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.240
We cannot ignore the mechanics of how capital markets actually function.
00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.679
But capital markets reward long-term stability too.
00:09:58.000 --> 00:09:58.799
Eventually.
00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:07.600
But stockholders demand short-term results because their capital is actively being measured against alternative investments every single day.
00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:13.360
The focus on maximizing periodic, quarterly, and annual profits isn't just greed.
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.120
I'm not saying it's just greed.
00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.879
It is the fundamental requirement for maintaining access to capital.
00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:26.080
If you don't survive the short-term liquidity crunch, there is no long-term mycelial network of goodwill left to harvest.
00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.639
Ethical relativism acts as the shock absorber.
00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.360
A shock absorber that compromises your integrity?
00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:41.120
No, it allows managers to balance these aggressive, short-term temporal demands with long-term stakeholder needs without collapsing the entire enterprise.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:51.600
But yielding to short-term capital demands at the expense of consistent ethics is the exact mechanism that compromises an organization's structural integrity.
00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:53.679
How so, if it keeps them alive?
00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:59.279
Because when you optimize exclusively for the short-term, quarterly profit, you aren't just surviving.
00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:04.879
You are inherently borrowing against your long-term goodwill at exorbitant interest rates.
00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:08.080
You are trading permanent trust for temporary margin.
00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:13.200
Let's examine the reality of operational constraints where that trade-off is unavoidable, though.
00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:20.559
Imagine a CEO has an institutional investor demanding a 5% margin increase this quarter, threatening a proxy fight if it doesn't happen.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.639
Okay, high pressure from the board.
00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:30.559
Simultaneously, the local community is demanding a multimillion dollar reduction in noise pollution from a local manufacturing plant.
00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:39.519
If the CEO applies a single, rigid standard of maximize stakeholder well-being equally at all times, the math literally does not compute.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:40.720
Capital is finite.
00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:46.320
I see the bind, but relativism allows the manager to make the difficult temporal choice.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:55.759
They can say, in the context of this specific quarter, I must prioritize the stockholders' margin to secure the next round of funding and keep the company alive.
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.440
And just ignore the community?
00:11:57.679 --> 00:11:58.000
No.
00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:02.960
That survival will ultimately allow me to build the quieter factory for the community next year.
00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:07.919
The rules of allowable actions must bend to the temporal financial reality of the business.
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:14.320
I'm not convinced by that line of reasoning because you are again conflating resource allocation with ethical standards.
00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:16.240
How is that not an ethical dilemma?
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:24.480
Because telling a community we legally cannot afford the factory upgrade this quarter due to cash constraints is a financial reality.
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.799
It is a harsh truth, but it is honest.
00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:27.440
Right.
00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:38.799
Saying we will falsify or obscure our current noise emission data to appease the community while quietly boosting production to satisfy the stockholders is an ethical lapse.
00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.720
One is a budgetary constraint, the other is a violation of integrity.
00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.120
Okay, sure, falsifying data is wrong.
00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:51.120
If we accept ethical relativism as a corporate virtue, we undermine the very concept of compliance.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.879
Wait, how does relativism undermine compliance?
00:12:55.200 --> 00:13:00.080
Compliance is a legal baseline, not the totality of ethical decision making.
00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.960
Because compliance requires an objective framework.
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:16.879
If you look at any of the major normative ethical theories in the text, whether you are looking at rule-based frameworks like deontology, or outcome-based ones like utilitarianism, they all exist to establish an objective baseline of human conduct.
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:18.320
A baseline, yes.
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:28.720
They suggest that there are universal truths in business, things like not defrauding clients, honoring contracts, maintaining safe labor conditions, and not poisoning the environment.
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:34.159
These aren't situational reactions, they are the prerequisites for participating in a functioning market.
00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:36.159
I agree, those are prerequisites.
00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:43.120
When an organization operates consistently on these principles, it lowers the regulatory burden for everyone.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:54.000
But if society knows that a corporation's commitment to basic environmental safety is entirely contingent on whether they hit their Q3 revenue targets, global trust deteriorates.
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:59.840
A functioning economy relies on the assumption that corporate actors share a consistent baseline of reality.
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:02.639
Yes, a baseline of law is required.
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:03.840
Absolutely.
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.679
But true ethics is far more granular than just avoiding fraud or honoring contracts.
00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:11.200
Granular in what way?
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:19.919
Ethics is fundamentally about how our internal values manifest in the highly complex, localized decisions we make every single day.
00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:23.840
And the daily decisions of a manager involve profound asymmetries.
00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:25.519
Back to the stakeholder map?
00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:26.399
Exactly.
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:36.559
A decision affecting a massive multinational supplier has entirely different power dynamics than a decision affecting an unorganized group of local retailers.
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:42.639
Because those relationships do not share the same physics, the application of values must adapt.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:44.240
I just don't see how.
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:53.919
Well, a rigid adherence to a single standard of do no harm can sometimes paralyze an organization and actually harm stakeholders in the process.
00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.000
Walk me through the mechanics of that.
00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:04.799
Give me a concrete example of how a single ethical standard of do no harm directly causes paralysis or harm in a way that relativism solves.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:05.519
Okay.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:12.320
Let's take this standard of do no harm and apply it to the tension between competitors and customers.
00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:20.799
Let's say a business invests heavily in RD and launches a highly disruptive, superior, and drastically cheaper product.
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:22.159
A market breakthrough.
00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:22.799
Right.
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.080
The mechanics of this action deeply benefit the customers.
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:31.440
It improves their quality of life, increases their purchasing power, and drives societal innovation.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:36.559
But simultaneously, this exact same action absolutely harms the competitors.
00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:37.919
It outcompetes them.
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:44.159
It will erode their market share, potentially drive them out of business, and cost their employees their livelihoods.
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:52.879
If a leader holds a single rigid ethical standard of do no harm to any stakeholder in our ecosystem, they are completely paralyzed.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:54.399
They literally cannot innovate.
00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:55.759
I see where you're going with this.
00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:09.039
Ethical relativism is the framework that allows the business to say, in the context of a free market, our moral obligation to provide transformative value to the customer supersedes the financial harm caused to the competitor.
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.519
The context, the structure of capitalism itself, dictates the ethics.
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:15.519
That's a really interesting point, though.
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:19.279
Though I would frame the definition of harm completely differently there.
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:20.240
How so?
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:26.320
Competing effectively in a free market isn't causing ethical harm to a competitor.
00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:32.639
Harm, in the ethical sense, implies an injustice, a violation of rights, or deliberate wrongdoing.
00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.519
Providing a superior product isn't an injustice.
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:37.440
It's financial harm, though.
00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:42.240
Sure, but the single ethical standard at play here is fair competition.
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:48.159
You treat the competitor fairly by not engaging in corporate espionage or stealing their trade secrets.
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:53.039
And you treat the customer fairly by offering an exceptional product at a good price.
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The standard of fairness remains entirely consistent across both interactions.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:04.240
Fair enough, but You are striving to be the best organizational actor in your interactions with all of them.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:11.759
The moment a leader dictates that ethics depends entirely upon context, you strip the organization of its internal compass.
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.640
I don't think it strips the compass, it just calibrates it.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:26.720
It inadvertently tells your procurement officers that it's morally acceptable to look the other way on a supplier's labor violations if the context is a brutal fiscal quarter and you desperately need cheap materials.
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:32.240
That is how the intangible asset of goodwill is systematically destroyed from the inside out.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:38.240
I think the core disconnect here is that you view relativism purely as a slippery slope to corruption and exploitation.
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.559
I view it as an open door to it, yes.
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:46.720
Whereas I view it as the only mechanism for realistic human balance.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.839
Let's examine the sheer scale of the word stakeholder.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:56.880
It encompasses individuals, entities, the environment, future generations, governments, and local communities.
00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:58.319
It's a massive web.
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.799
It implies an almost infinite web of competing impacts.
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:14.400
A single standard assumes an omniscient CEO who can perfectly foresee and balance how a single decision ripples across that entire web simultaneously without contradiction.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.200
Nobody is omniscient, but principles are principles.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:21.680
But relativism acknowledges the fundamental limitation of human leadership.
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:28.720
It says I cannot perfectly satisfy the environmental lobby, the local tax base, and the institutional investor today.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:30.480
The physics won't allow it.
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:39.119
So I will apply the ethical framework that best navigates the most immediate existential threat to the company so that we survive to fight another day.
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:47.440
But if the most immediate existential threat is always the sole dictator of the ethical rule, then the company doesn't actually possess core values.
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:49.839
It only possesses survival instincts.
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:53.200
Survival is the prerequisite for value creation.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.279
But survival instincts do not build long-term enterprise value.
00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:02.319
Survival instincts do not build a resilient, positive attitude in the workforce.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:12.640
Top-tier talent, the engineers, the strategists, the innovators who actually drive long-term profit, they want to work for an organization that stands for something objective.
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:16.400
I'm not sure that's their primary concern in a crisis.
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:26.000
They don't want to dedicate their careers to a company that constantly shifts its moral definitions based on which external stakeholders applying the most leverage on any given Tuesday.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:36.480
I would counter that top-tier talent primarily wants to work for a company that is agile enough to survive market volatility and consistently make payroll.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:41.200
The short-term focus on navigating immediate pressures isn't a moral failing.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.680
It's not a failing to survive, but it is to compromise your ethics to do it.
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:54.000
It is the oxygen that allows the business to exist long enough to actually engage in philanthropy, environmental stewardship, or community building.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.880
If you are entirely rigid, you snap.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:05.039
Ethical relativism gives managers the necessary flexibility to bend, to breathe, and to adapt to the asymmetrical demands of reality.
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.680
Well, as we begin to synthesize this discussion, my position remains firm.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:16.240
A single consistent ethical standard is the only reliable engine for enduring organizational success.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:19.039
And I maintain it's about navigating complexity.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:24.960
Right, but for me, it is the mechanism that ensures long-term profit maximization.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:39.839
By maintaining structural integrity in every single interaction, whether navigating a contract with a massive supplier, competing fairly against a rival, or reporting transparently to the government, a business compounds invaluable goodwill.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.240
That intangible premium of trust.
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:43.119
Exactly.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:52.319
That intangible but critical reputation, that deep-seated trust from the market, is the actual buffer that sustains a company through systemic shocks.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:21:06.079
Ultimately, a consistent standard is what lowers transaction costs and ensures that business and society can function properly together, built on a foundation of predictable integrity rather than shifting situational excuses.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:12.960
And my stance is that true business ethics requires the intellectual courage to navigate profound complexity.
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.799
Ethical relativism isn't an excuse for malicious behavior.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:24.480
It is the necessary highly calibrated framework for balancing the immense, often contradictory demands of a diverse stakeholder web.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.160
The realities of the ground game.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:27.119
Precisely.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:38.480
From institutional capital demanding quarterly yield to the global environment requiring long-term preservation, a rigid single standard simply cannot process the competing physics of the real world.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:49.759
Acknowledging that the application of ethics depends upon context empowers leaders to make the difficult, nuanced trade-offs that keep organizations alive, functioning, and capable of delivering value over time.
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:58.079
While we clearly diverge significantly on the structural application of these standards, I think there is a profound point of convergence to take away from this material.
00:21:58.319 --> 00:21:59.200
I agree, yeah.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:04.160
Ethics isn't just a theoretical exercise of knowing right from wrong in a vacuum.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:13.039
Both of us agree that it is fundamentally about the mechanics of how our internal values manifest in the high-stakes, everyday professional decisions we execute.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:17.440
It requires deep, intentional, and constant reflection from leadership.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.720
Absolutely.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:29.839
The tension between the short-term survival and the long-term ideal, between universal principles and granular contextual realities, is exactly where true leadership is forged.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:30.960
Well said.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.359
It is not a static equation you solve once and walk away from.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.599
It is a dynamic living balance that requires constant recalibration every single day.
00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:56.240
So true.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:05.440
We encourage you to reflect on your own operational values and how they influence your approach to the complex dilemmas you face in your own professional landscape.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:13.920
We aren't here to declare a definitive winner or hand you a simplistic answer, but rather to give you the structural frameworks to weigh these realities yourself.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.839
It's up to you to apply them.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.680
Think back to that skyscraper we mentioned at the very beginning of the show.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:27.039
Does it stand tall because every single steel beam rigidly follows the exact same unyielding rule of load bearing physics?
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:35.200
Or does it survive the Category 5 storm precisely because the engineers designed it to sway, bend, and yield to the shifting pressures of the wind?
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:36.559
That is the question.
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.279
The answer might just depend on which floor you're standing on.
