00:00:00
Speaker 1: When it comes to our careers, we're faced with many pivotal crossroads along the way, especially in this chapter where we can feel very stuck or dissatisfied. My next guest was once referred to as the queen of cable, and she climbed a ladder of success that began with babysitting a dog. Well, all those experiences in between led her to writing a New York Times bestseller that exposes the many lies that women are faced with at work and the truths we need to succeed. Today, we'll cover some of those lies and crossroads and ask, how hard can it be? Welcome to this episode of How Hard Can It Be? I'm your host, Deanna Maria Riva, and we are talking about midlife's most fantastic bullshit. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. I'm very excited to have my next guest on here. She is an author, but even more impactfully, she is a businesswoman and a media exec from vice chairman of NBC Universal. Started off as a photojournalist on set with dogs. And we'll tell you that story. But one of her biggest accomplishments, aside from being a mother. as well, is writing the book, 15 Lies Women Are Told at Work and the Truth We Need to Succeed. And as you can see, I have it marked, highlighted. And I also have to tell you, Bonnie Hammer, that you could have essentially written an entire Lord of the Rings style anthology of 15 Lies. And I have a few suggestions for you. You could have written 15 lies about marriage and the truth we need to succeed. 15 lies about divorce, but I think there's more than 15. 15 lies about raising children. 15 lies about single parenting. And 15 lies about dating over 50, which I don't think you needed to do, but I did so I can be your guest writer.
00:01:47
Speaker 2: I dated over 40.
00:01:48
Speaker 1: Okay, listen, the game is rough when you're over 40. Did you do the dating app?
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Speaker 2: No, because now you're going to make me say how old I am. No. We did not have dating apps when I was, you know, divorced and before I met Dale. You did it through friends, friends of friends, et cetera. Yes. But you didn't go on and do it that way.
00:02:12
Speaker 1: The better way.
00:02:13
Speaker 2: Which means I'm old, but that's okay.
00:02:15
Speaker 1: No, I'm glad that you didn't have to. I did it once, and it's because I lost a bet with a girlfriend, and I said— If I lose, she said, if you lose, you have to go on this dating app.
00:02:27
Speaker 2: I'm not confident enough to do that. I would not have been able to. I would have taken every rejection as a personal trauma. I could not have done that.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: By the way, it's so interesting to hear you say that because welcoming Bonnie Hammer to the show, writing this book, I would have never believed for one second that there was something that wasn't confident about you. That's what's so great about this book. This book, by the way, It's a workbook that I implore you to give to your daughter as she's entering the workforce, whatever line of work she's getting into. But it's also a great workbook to come back to and check in on yourself. Where am I? What resonates with me? And in particular with women in midlife, where we're at, we're not retired. Society would like to tell us we're about to retire. We're not retired. And yet, Check in and see where you are and how this applies. What made you write it, aside from you were pissed on a roller coaster?
00:03:25
Speaker 2: Well, that's really true. I mean, I was one of the only women on this crazy roller coaster because I took a dare. I took a dare from Jimmy Horowitz, who I adore, who does all the legal stuff for the film division of NBCU. And I hate heights. I don't like speed, except when I'm driving, I always speed. Yeah. But he just said, what do you mean you're not going to go? I said, it scares me. I dare you. Anybody dares me, I do it.
00:03:55
Speaker 1: Game on.
00:03:56
Speaker 2: But what I realized walking on it and then surviving it getting off, I was virtually the only woman on that ride. And it was an offsite of NBCU. So there were a lot of women executives and guys there. And I start to think about, other than fear, which, granted, I understand, why was it that all of my friends and colleagues were nicely sitting by their little cocktail tables having a glass of wine, and I come off this thing with my hair out to here, my face completely red, but proud of myself because I took a dare. And I started thinking about two things. One is women don't like to mix– work and or have been told they shouldn't mix work and play. Now, I'm not talking about work and pleasure, work and play. And I was trying to figure out why. And then I started thinking about all these other cliches that we've been brought up to believe are true, that is misinformation, that if you follow it, it basically leads to self-sabotage in your career. And that's really how it started on a roller coaster. But I've also, within my world and within my profession, I've always loved mentoring people, in particular women. And I figured this was my way of paying it forward. I can't mentor every woman I would like to touch. But it was my way of, you know, paying it forward to those women who are trying to navigate a world which right now is even tougher than we've ever experienced because of so many different reasons.
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Speaker 1: You know, and when you talk about cliche, I want to dive into the first one that hit me because this is the target audience for this. Well, like I said, millennials, you're heading right here. Pay attention. Gen Z should listen and learn and do differently. But one of the things that I want to dive into, because this is where I'm at with this. And you talk about, see, I have to get my notes because I'm just.
00:06:02
Speaker 2: Very proud of you. That was for a lot of notes. Oh, no.
00:06:05
Speaker 1: You're a good girl.
00:06:06
Speaker 2: No, girl.
00:06:07
Speaker 1: I know how to do homework. I'm an actor, but I know how to study. People who dream, we close ourselves off. The non-dreamers stay open. Dreams guide us, motivate us, and serve as a reminder of what's most important. And achieving them feels great. But it can paralyze you or keep you in a stuck place.
00:06:27
Speaker 2: But I... The way people define dreams is very different. I'm a big believer that if you only follow your dreams in life, you're basically walking through life without a consciousness. It's like.
00:06:44
Speaker 2: There's a big difference between following dreams, following passions, following interests, and succeeding in the world. And I believe that you can't be what you can't see, and you can't dream what you don't know. So when you're young, the dreams you have limit the possibilities of your life. And you can sleepwalk through your entire life if you just follow the dream you had at 6, 12, 16. Mm-hmm. Because when you think about where your dreams came from, what your parents told you, what a school teacher told you, what a course in maybe even college led you to believe. But if you haven't experienced what that means in real life, you're limiting yourself to all these other possibilities that if you just go to the right or the left, you can experience and find your adult dream. Yes.
00:07:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker 2: I think people also feel that if they don't follow their dreams, what are they going to do? My advice is your dream doesn't have to be your job. You don't have to give up a dream. It doesn't have to be your boss. It could still be a passion that you do when you live out, but it doesn't have to be how you make your living.
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Speaker 1: No, and you bring that up a lot. You talk about how dreams are like drugs. They're hard to quit. And I think that a lot of us, this generation in particular, we're the regents of resourcefulness. We get things done. We're told the formula and we enact it. And it's hard for us to kind of stray outside of that, maybe because of opportunity or what we sleptwalk through or because it's been taking care of ourselves and our children. So we need to just play it safe. But you do get to a point where I think, you know, you're at a crossroad. And what do I want to do? I haven't done it. And maybe it's because I've ignored some of those off ramps that you talk about. Like, take it. What's the worst that can happen?
00:08:42
Speaker 2: It's opportunities. When I think about how I tripped into television, I was following my passion. I was taking photographs of kids on a set and a kid's television show. It was an entertainment and math show in Boston. I was working freelance, which back then meant you were working for free for credits for a graduate program. And it wasn't until a couple of people got basically fired, I don't know the reasons why, that they just looked at me and said, do you want... You want a job. You want to be a production assistant, which, as you know, is as low as you can go in television. Right. And mine was lower than most because the talent I got to take care of was an untrained sheepdog named Winston. So I was cleaning up crap.
00:09:28
Speaker 1: Biggest diva on the set. Yes.
00:09:30
Speaker 2: So for me, when people say they don't like grunt work, they don't like to do crappy jobs— I literally had the crappiest job ever because I was cleaning up crap, but I did it with a smile. But what that did was allow my bosses, which were many, all from– this was Boston. The producer was from LA, the director was from LA. Because I had a good attitude, that's the only reason I got the next gig. Only reason. I smiled cleaning up dog crap.
00:10:06
Speaker 1: But it was genuine. You wanted to be there too. I think like, obviously, you would have taken it if you didn't want to explore something.
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Speaker 2: I wanted to learn.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: There you go.
00:10:13
Speaker 2: And it was just a matter of, okay, I can always quit. I can always leave. I can always try to find something else. But I'm here. Why not? Right.
00:10:23
Speaker 1: So with women in this chapter, and we're stuck in this mindset of whatever the dream or the formula has been, and that fear of taking a risk, you talk about keeping up that hunger or that curiosity to want to learn more and to want to do something different. I am stuck in what I want to see for my career right now. And I'm afraid I'm being a little too rigid.
00:10:49
Speaker 2: Why? How? I mean, how do you feel you're stuck? And why are you putting parameters around her right now? Oh, boy.
00:10:56
Speaker 1: Here I go.
00:10:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm interviewing you now.
00:10:57
Speaker 1: I know.
00:10:58
Speaker 2: I'm in trouble. Okay. Yeah.
00:10:59
Speaker 1: So I did all this homework, but not on myself. I actually think I'm stuck.
00:11:04
Speaker 2: Come on. Turn it around.
00:11:06
Speaker 1: You're like, I've seen it.
00:11:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:11:08
Speaker 1: This is why she has a bestselling book. I think because I know what I want to do and I know what I can do and I know what I'm worthy of doing. And so, and I feel I'm running out of time. And so when they came to me and said, why don't you pitch a podcast? I told, I had a guru tell me that. I had an exec tell me, do a podcast. I'm like, no, horrible answer, absolutely not. And then for a year, it kept popping up. And I thought, if I do that, I'm not going to be able to do this.
00:11:39
Speaker 2: I see. I think by doing it, first of all, you did open yourself up. Yes. And the number of people you can meet just by doing this that could kick other doors open is amazing. See, I'm a big believer. I think we have been brought up, your generation, definitely my generation. I do have years on you, my dear. We've been brought up with this notion of lateral growth, career ladder, upskill, promotion, raises. Everything is termed that you basically, you climb this ladder and you're going to hit this incredible place. The reality is you hit a ceiling. At that last rung, there's nothing left. And all you've done is learned, practiced, experienced a lateral growth process. But you don't have the skills to go right or left. I'm a huge believer in creating a web. Think of it as a spiderweb. where it becomes infinitely larger, but it gets higher, shorter, to the right, to the left. And it's this intricate thing which allows you to have so much varied experience. So when your company gets sold, when AI takes over your job, when the world just changes... You have other stuff to fall back on because you've experienced other stuff than your dream that led you to a specific place without very much other exposure. So I'm a big believer in trying stuff. Because guess what? You don't like it, you trip, you pick yourself up and you try something else. Something else. And you keep going. But the cumulative experience of it gets you a lot further. I mean, I took ridiculous stuff that I hated to do because it was nothing else in a much safer world way back when. And I'm talking 70s and 80s where, you know, I hate numbers. And I had to take a job just to buy time in between TV shows, kids' TV shows. So I did budget work. I hated every minute. Yes, we did have calculators back there, really. So I wasn't just using my fingers. But what it did do was when I, in my hindsight, if I had never worked on somebody else's budget, When I got to a point where I was producing my own shows, where I was hiring, if I didn't understand the inside and out of working a budget and somebody said to me, well, it's going to cost me yay many thousands of dollars to do that, I would have probably said yay or nay ignorantly. When that did start happening, I would look at it and say, there's no fracking way you can get that done in that budget. Go back and really give me a real number. That experience, which I hated, actually gave me such– a grounding of knowledge in an area I never would have had. Yes, I would have had somebody do that for me.
00:14:47
Speaker 1: You took that opportunity to learn.
00:14:49
Speaker 2: But the education was incredible for me.
00:15:02
Speaker 1: They called you the Queen of Cable. You produced some of the most historical shows ever in television. Suits was one of many, but, and, and you were there when streaming hit and then you created a ton of shows during that. That's not just one. That's not linear.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: That's no.
00:15:22
Speaker 1: And the webbing that came out of that, how did you web all the way to there?
00:15:28
Speaker 2: A lot of different reasons and different ways. If you think about it, so much I now can acknowledge because of hindsight, not because I was doing it purposefully. And a lot of the information of the book comes from the wealth of hindsight as opposed to— being so confident at the moment. But part of it was opportunity. Part of it was when I think about starting in kids TV, I never ever thought I'd get out of kids TV. But I tripped, literally tripped into the next job, which was morning talk. And I tripped into running it because somebody fell out. And I just happened to be there at the moment with no experience, but they gave me a shot. I kept zigzagging into different experiences and basically said, somehow I'll figure out a way to do it. But I never lied. I never lied to anybody who was interviewing me to say, oh, I've done that five times, or of course I know what I'm doing. I told the truth. I was able to say, you know, I've never done morning, you know, I don't, I know morning talk. I've watched it for years, but I've never produced for morning talk. I produce dogs and kids. But What I was able to do was hire those around me who knew a lot more than I did, but I was capable of managing them and let their strengths shine through as opposed to how to pretend I knew everything. So my openness kept letting me trip into different jobs, and each one led to another experience. Each one led to another relationship. But the other thing I think this generation doesn't like, I probably hated it when I was living through it but accepted it, was being willing to hear what other people said to me about me, about my work. And I started really believing in what I call tough love or challenging mentors. And if I am really honest myself or those tough people in my life– that ultimately led me to the confidence of being willing to try stuff, fail, pick myself up, try again, and keep moving. So I'm a big believer in having people around you who tell you the truth rather than pat you on the back and tell you how great you are and be your favorite cheerleader.
00:17:53
Speaker 1: And that's a two-part deal, though, because you, okay, let's say now you're in a place in your career, like myself or anyone else, and you know you want to do more, and there's an opportunity to do more. You take the criticism, you take the tough love, and then you talk about going for those opportunities. Go ahead, throw yourself into the ring, your hat into the ring, knowing your professional worth, which is different than your self-worth. We all know that our self-worth just has to be intact on a Tuesday.
00:18:27
Speaker 2: But you have to work your professional worth.
00:18:29
Speaker 1: You have to build that.
00:18:31
Speaker 2: You have to prove to somebody else that you're worthy.
00:18:35
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:18:35
Speaker 2: And that means... First of all, it's having a positive attitude about it. You know, understanding and admitting what you don't know, but you're willing to learn and you're a hard worker. It's all about attitude and willingness to try, but not lie. You know, the minute you tell somebody, you know, you can do something and you know what you're doing because you've done it and you trip and you lie. you lose more than just the job. You lose your integrity. And no one's going to take a chance on you again. So being honest about what you know and what you don't know, and then asking for help from people. What that does is make others want to take you under their wing because you've been honest, you're a hard worker, you have a good attitude. They want to teach you. And they become your bigger supporters.
00:19:23
Speaker 1: I think that.
00:19:27
Speaker 2: There is.
00:19:29
Speaker 1: Routine and there's also an intimidation factor because I do– my biggest complaint about women in this chapter and when we get here is that society is telling us one thing and it's typically pretty negative.
00:19:41
Speaker 2: And what are you hearing? Like what do you hear?
00:19:43
Speaker 1: I'm hearing society tell me that you are running out of time and it's– you know, you either wrap it up and get it now, which you do talk about, don't waste time, or it's not going to happen. And when you want more and you're willing to, you're doing the work and you want to do more work, you're willing, you're open to doing the work. All I can hear sometimes is society telling me you're running out of time.
00:20:08
Speaker 2: And are you talking about ageism within the field? What are you talking about?
00:20:14
Speaker 1: I think a little bit of ageism or lack of interest at a certain point. I think that, you know, I have my bestie who's my little co-host commentary here. She owned a driver's school in Cincinnati, Ohio, driver's education school. She was also a physical therapist assistant, so she did a lot of disability work. The business grew and became huge. When her mother died, who was her everything, and she was an only child, it just shook her up into thinking, I don't want to wait. I want to live. The business has been good. I'm tired of it. So she got to a point where she sold it. She did it right financially. She sold it. She now gives $ 20 facials out of her son's bedroom, who's moved off from college, and she is enjoying the shit out of it. And that's what she wants to do. But But did she.
00:21:08
Speaker 2: Know she wanted to do it or she quit and was trying to find out what she really wants as opposed to just living that dream, which starts to get frustrating if it's not happening.
00:21:18
Speaker 1: Her dream was to let go and do something more. She was either that or open a coffee stand on the beach. And she's having the time of her life. And I admire her for that. And she quit living by the clock when she saw her mother die too young. And so what is this mentality with us that we live trapped with that intimidation of time?
00:21:39
Speaker 2: I think we do it to ourselves. I mean, this is going to sound weird, but... I was very, very lucky within the NBCU world. And yes, I worked my butt off, but I had an amazing team, amazing people, and survived many decades within the NBCU world or the television world at large. And probably when I retired, but it was also at a time when they wanted to retire me. I I was beyond anybody's ken of somebody still standing, which was in my 70s. And probably the oldest chick standing at the time. But I wasn't done in my mind. I wasn't done in my head. And it was still hard, even at that age, having anybody put an ageism on me because I'm not done. And I don't buy it. And I also think our culture... so rewards and supports 20, 30-somethings that the elders who have the experience are pushed away way too early.
00:22:52
Speaker 1: That's my point.
00:22:53
Speaker 2: But I do believe if our culture will only understand if the marriage of the younger generation's with the elder generation of experience could genuinely bond and work together. Yes. The kinds of creations we could come up with, those who know how to get it done and those who have the fresh new ideas. You marry those two. Yes. That's incredible. As opposed to just brilliant ideas that you may not know how to take care of.
00:23:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:23:21
Speaker 2: Perhaps older ways, but we know how to get something done. Yes. So it's interesting. Ageism is funny, but I think most of the time we do it to ourselves because originally it was 60, then it was 65, you know, retirement, end of conversation. I thought that was going to be me too, but it wasn't. And I did not let myself feed into it. And I think society may put out those markers, boundaries, whatever you want to call them. But it's in our power and our being that can say, fuck that. I'm not buying it. And you just keep on going. But you can't keep on going on the same road. You have to make a right turn, a left turn, take a U-turn, You've got to figure out what the obstacle is and try another way. As the book says, I don't believe in no. I don't believe in the word no. My father brought me up, which is why I think I'm talking to you with the sage right now, that there's no such word as can't. If you can't do something, it simply means you're not trying hard enough. So find another way, another direction, another way around it, but don't tell me you can't do it.
00:24:34
Speaker 1: So when do you know to let go? When do you know when to let go, when to say when? Have you had an instance in your life where you were really pushing and fighting for something and you're like, you know what?
00:24:44
Speaker 2: I was always pushing and fighting. I get it. I believe it.
00:24:49
Speaker 1: Was there any instance?
00:24:50
Speaker 2: Yes. For example, I mean, this is a small story, but it kind of talks to what I mean of another way around.
00:25:02
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
00:25:03
Speaker 2: It was just, I mean, GE still owned NBCU. My boss at the time kept telling me I was going to take over NBC Broadcast. I was the cable girl. I had USA, I had SyFy, I had all the cable channels. But at that time, Broadcast was a superstore. We were a stepchild. Broadcast was the real deal. And he told me he was going to give it to me. And then summer came and went, and it Lingered longer, whoever was in the position finally left. And I was ready to step into it. And I remember getting a call from a plane of a colleague of mine, who I still adore to this day, Ron Meyer, who said, by the way, you're not getting NBC. I said, what do you mean? He said, I just know, I just heard, I'm not supposed to tell you, but I want to prepare you for the call you're going to have tomorrow. And I'm totally devastated because I did all of cable. I was making way more money than they were making in the broadcast side because we had two streams of revenue. And I was in shock. But at the time, Ron basically wanted to make sure that I was prepared for the call so I could, quote, unquote, man up to it. And I remember when I got the call from my boss at the time, I– was calm and I said, okay. And I was debating, do I leave now? Do I quit? What do I do? And I decided, no, there's a reason that I don't know that why I'm not getting that job. But if they want to keep me, I'm going to go for something else. So my boss told me, you're going to have the HR person that's going to come to your office on, it was Memorial Day weekend, so on Tuesday, and you tell him what you want. So I literally said, okay, if I'm going to stay, I want a studio of my own and I want more money. I want you to double my salary. They came close to doubling, not quite. And they gave me what is now UCP, which is Universal Cable Productions. And I got a studio out of it. But it hurt. It was painful. But I figured out a way somehow to get something. I didn't know how to run a studio. I had never done my own production. We were the ones who bought it and created a brand and an image, et cetera. And we did it. And obviously, many, many, many years later, the studio is still there.
00:27:38
Speaker 1: So it worked out, which is great. And again, not linear. So when you talk to, to, you know, in your book and you, and you focus on the subject of going in to get something that you want, you say, have a plan.
00:27:51
Speaker 2: Have a plan and don't have an attitude. It's, you can have a plan, but if you whine, complain, you owe me, I'm entitled, you know, you, You have to be bold but not brash. You have to have confidence but not feel entitlement. They're just the style in which you ask for something. And I find humor. Like even with the HR guy, he walked in and I said, oh, you know, I made a joke to start rather than I can't believe what the assholes did to me. You know, I didn't do the– I didn't handle it the way– many people would have handled it with anger and being obnoxious and being, you know, you owe me. I basically sat back and said, okay, if someone were coming to me what would make me want to do something for them? What kind of attitude or sensibility or sense of humor would make me kind of want to be protective rather than say, oh, get the hell out of here. And that's kind of how I've lived my life. When I ask for something, I don't do it out of anger and I don't do it out of resentment and I don't do out of it because you owe me. I maintain, even if it hurts, a sense of humility. And realizing that they have to make decisions for them for reasons I may never understand. But that doesn't mean I should be a bitch about it.
00:29:21
Speaker 1: No, but and yet, but it's good to hear that because it is worth, I think we can come into a situation like this or discussion like that with defenses or a chip on our shoulder thinking we got to be tougher than the guy. We got to be tougher than our male counterpart. We have to, show more attitude.
00:29:37
Speaker 2: See, that's the worst. I think that's one of the biggest downfalls that women tend to believe.
00:29:43
Speaker 1: Go for it. I wrote that one down too.
00:29:46
Speaker 2: It is you have to be tougher. You have to be stronger. You have to be nastier. You have to be more demanding. It doesn't work. It just backfires. It doesn't mean you can't be confident about it. It's the style in which you demonstrate that confidence and your abilities and capabilities. But thinking you have to bitch up just so they think you're strong and tough, it backfires 95%, 99% of the time because nobody wants to bitch around. Right. But do they want a strong woman with a sense of humor who somehow can figure out how to get what they want but not be an asshole? Yeah.
00:30:34
Speaker 1: When you tell women, do it, don't wait, you have nothing to lose, have a plan, what is your idea of a plan? When a woman goes in and says, I want to be considered for this next position?
00:30:47
Speaker 2: It's basically doing your homework. First of all, understanding truly what that position entails. What do I have to know? Where do I have to go? Who can teach me a little bit more before I go in for that interview so I can be more informed and then be honest about who you spoke to about it. Um, It's important to show that you can be a collaborative player in the game because that's what most people need and want as opposed to somebody going in saying, I'm better than that one. I can do it. I can do it all. Don't worry about it. It, again, is stylistic in terms of how you approach everything. whether you're going to get the gig or not. But it's also saying if you don't get it, you know something, if it doesn't work out this time, keep me in mind for next. Or where would you recommend I get the experience so that when I come back in in a month, six months, or a year from now, it's an immediate yes.
00:31:44
Speaker 1: I love that you're putting a pin in for the like, I'll be back if not this year, next. I love that.
00:31:49
Speaker 2: And that's it. Don't think of a no as a permanent no. You know, a no means... Maybe not today, not now, not right here.
00:32:00
Speaker 1: Not here.
00:32:01
Speaker 2: But, you know, figure out another way to come in to get your yes. To me, a no is never permanent, ever.
00:32:08
Speaker 1: I want to know now, shifting to you, Bonnie, as a mother and a spouse, how do you balance this life with home? How did you stop and take care of you during these times? Because this is a demanding life. This was a demanding life, the career.
00:32:25
Speaker 2: First of all, people say you can have it all. In hindsight, I look back and I've been very lucky. I've had a good marriage, kids, profession, all that kind of stuff. But.
00:32:38
Speaker 2: You're never in balance. That's what people have to understand. You are always off balance. When I was on vacation, I always felt guilty I was leaving my colleagues down. When I was at work, I always felt guilty that, you know, my kid's at home, my husband's at home, who's making dinner, what's going on. So I always felt guilty staying or being at work, especially when I traveled.
00:33:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:33:02
Speaker 2: Now, I'm an empty nester. My kids are gone. You know, I have a totally independent life. I still feel guilty because I love my dog at home. So you're always at a balance. And people thinking that you're going to feel good and you're going to feel balanced and you're going to feel whole and everything is going to be just fine because you can have it all at the same time. Yeah. That's a crock.
00:33:25
Speaker 1: It's so refreshing to hear that.
00:33:28
Speaker 2: You may be able to have it all over the decades, but not at the same time. And you have to just know you're going to feel shitty on both sides of the scale.
00:33:39
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a constant tug of war.
00:33:41
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:33:42
Speaker 1: And it sounds to me like sometimes it's just less harsh and less tuggy as other times.
00:33:48
Speaker 2: I want to go back to something because I was going to bring it up and I thought about it too late when you talked about, you know, having... whether it's a more male-dominant world when people are whispering in your ear and you've got to compete with the guys, et cetera. I think one of the reasons why I never bought into that is because I had Barry Diller as a mentor. And Barry didn't care if you were male, female, short, tall, straight, gay, bi. He didn't care who you were. If you were an assistant or the president of a division, couldn't care less. A good idea was a good idea. A bad idea was a bad idea, no matter whose mouth it came out of. And I think it was Barry who was a person who taught me how to kind of navigate and never look at it as somebody else creating the rules for you. You either had good ideas and could present them well or bad ideas. It wasn't because the guys were after you. So I never saw the world, as I think many of my female peers did, that it was– a man's world. I didn't view it that way. And I think Barry was one of those who kicked me in the butt to realize it doesn't matter. It's either a good idea or a bad idea. It doesn't matter who it comes from.
00:35:02
Speaker 1: Well, we need more Barrys in the world. But I do think that that is a very specific and unique type of mentality. And I do feel that I think maybe being the oldest of three sisters and my father never left a toilet seat up in his life and still has it that I have never walked into anywhere thinking that it's a man's world. I need to, you know, assert myself. I have the things that will rattle me, but I do tend to throw myself off a cliff and say, why not me?
00:35:28
Speaker 2: I get that. But that should be a motivator.
00:35:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:35:34
Speaker 2: And frankly, I think one of the things that bothers me A lot is that not enough women bring up other women.
00:35:46
Speaker 1: Say it again.
00:35:49
Speaker 2: It's less so that the guys are after us. It's more women are so afraid because there are so few seats they believe are at the table. Therefore, if they help somebody else or bring someone else up, it may mean they may not get that seat. In my mind, the more women in C-suites, the better. Let's bring them up. And guess what? If you get it and I didn't and I helped bring you up, bravo to you. Win-win. Because, you know, hey, look what I did. She got that. Yeah. But enough women don't feel that. They're still competing for the wrong reasons against the wrong people.
00:36:29
Speaker 1: That's it. They're competing for the wrong reasons against the wrong people. I'm not your fight. I'm not here to take this away from you. And I say all the time on this podcast, but I've said it before, as my collection of girlfriends has gotten a little bit more tailored. By choice. Yeah, by choice, by choice. Women need to know how to be good women to other women.
00:36:53
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. I had an experience a number of years back where I gave my lawyer to another colleague who was I don't remember whether I was chair of my department at that point or vice chair already. And I told him, I said, I want you to tell her everything I make. I want you to tell her my stock options, my salary, what my bonus over the last couple of years. And he says to me, why? I said, why not? The money is not coming out of my pocket. If I can help her as she takes on this new chair role, Get what she deserves because she can go in and say, I know two other people who made blah, blah, blah. It's going to only help her. It's not taking anything away from me. Somebody getting money in their pocket, if I'm stupid enough not to negotiate hard enough for my own money, that's my problem, not hers. Let her know. She got the deal closed and she got good money.
00:37:52
Speaker 1: Okay, I thought you were going to turn and tell me like she stabbed you in the back. No, never.
00:37:55
Speaker 2: Thank God. To this day. Yeah. To this day. She doesn't quite tell that story to other people.
00:38:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:38:01
Speaker 2: But she is a, and we have virtually nothing to do with each other's world. She remains a supporter and a supporter of other women.
00:38:11
Speaker 1: That's, it starts with one.
00:38:13
Speaker 2: Paying it forward.
00:38:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely. What are you, is there anything now, because you have it figured out, and I respect what you say, that all this is coming from hindsight. What are you better at now than you were 30, 40 years ago? At home as a mother?
00:38:29
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's just being more honest with myself.
00:38:34
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:38:34
Speaker 2: And not needing as much hindsight to kind of see who I am and laugh at myself and... Try also not to project on the kids, you know, what I may want for them rather than to applaud what they want for themselves. And also learn. I've been much better in terms of I had a real Jewish mom who could deal with great Jewish guilt. I have mastered not being a guilt giver. because of what I experienced growing up. And it was all for good. My mother was a really good, decent person and a great mom, but she used her own, what she wanted for herself for her kids to accomplish. And that's something that I'm very careful and cautious about, but now it's much more natural than it was. I remember having... to zip when something was about to come out of my mouth. And it wasn't always perfect when it would start falling out. Now it's just I can listen and hear Jesse or Akime talk about what they are doing, want to do, and not offer advice. Just listen.
00:39:46
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a hard one. You don't offer advice.
00:39:50
Speaker 2: No, I'm not 100% perfect at it yet. But I literally have to tell myself to zip and just listen. And if she asks or he asks, so what do you think? Yeah. Then I'll be honest. But if they don't ask, I don't say.
00:40:06
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about the story, because this is also something about this time, this chapter, this season, 40s and above, whatever. And you're somewhere where you don't want to be. And you wanted to always try something. And you mentioned the network exec that started to evaluate her work with students because she was, I think, helping as a tutor or helping her daughter with some of her learning challenges. And she realized she had an affinity for teaching and she loved it. And she said she wanted to potentially go into psychology. And she had already been in the business for 30 years. And you uplifted her. And empowered her to jump and try.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Lizzie did it pretty much on her own. She kind of woke up one day and said, I've done this chapter. And nobody wanted her to leave. She was fabulous within the NBCU world. But she realized that there was something missing from her life, her existence, and wanted to try different things. So she literally, whilst working at NBC, took some graduate courses at Columbia and Eventually left NBC by choice completely on her own and is thriving right now.
00:41:19
Speaker 1: That's what I wanted to ask you. How is she doing?
00:41:21
Speaker 2: Happy, thriving. Doesn't mean that she doesn't miss her colleagues and what she was doing. But she feels much more fulfilled and realizes, you know, and this may not be her end goal. her end deal either. She may still zig or zag off of the psychology and social work that she's done to something else. But she's living out all of her, I don't want to call them fantasies because they're now realities, but all of her adult dreams. She's now putting a toe in the water to see how they really feel. And she's doing incredibly well, which is why I think The adult dream is something you come to because you're experiencing life in a different way and find some passions and some lack of passions.
00:42:14
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:42:15
Speaker 2: And it gives you an opportunity, if you're willing, to put that toe in the water. See how it feels. It may be too icy. You go, oh, my God, that's not for me. Or it could be, ooh, this kind of feels good. I'm going to go a little further with this. I'll take a course. I'll go talk to somebody. I'll freelance. I'll work for free just to experience and follow somebody around for a bit on a weekend. There's so many ways to experiment, but unless you put your toes in the water, how are you ever going to know? Yeah.
00:42:43
Speaker 1: And I think it's important for us to hear that there is such a thing as adult dreams.
00:42:48
Speaker 2: Oh, without doubt. I mean, if I lived my mother's dream, which she planted in my brain cells very early, I would be a lawyer. Okay. And I laugh when I think about me ever. And I thought about that. And while in school, I was going to apply to law school, but something about it didn't feel right. Then it was psychology for a while for me, because I was always good in reading people and being able to navigate. And then I decided, that's kind of, I can always read people. I can always help people. I don't need to be be paid to deal with other people's problems. And it was just odd how I tripped into photography, which turned out to be a passion. I started when I was 12, a little brownie camera, taking pictures of my girlfriends at summer camp and creating my own little wall of photos, which was fabulous. But It turns out it's a passion, and it's still my passion, and I still shoot all the time, but it's.
00:43:49
Speaker 1: Not my boss.
00:43:50
Speaker 2: It's not my boss.
00:43:51
Speaker 1: Is that another form of self-care?
00:43:57
Speaker 2: It could be. It could be, but I love it. I'll walk my neighborhood, and sometimes I carry a real camera. Sometimes I just use my wonderful iPhone, which I now know how to play with in a lot of ways. But I'm always shooting. I'm always seeing it. But I don't ever want it to control me or my life that I have to do it. And I think the reason some of my photographs, you know, some are crappy, but some are pretty good, are because I see it as a pure form of my eyes, my heart, my being now manifesting itself where it used to be a print. Now it's either on my phone or on my computer. But it's something about my life, something about what I've seen, something about what I've experienced or what I feel in an image.
00:44:45
Speaker 1: I want to read this last paragraph because this made me actually tear up. Everything makes me tear up. I'm going to pause. Fortunately, I have a lifetime of running with change and not from it to use it as experience. I embrace whatever new reality I'm faced with as my new reality, and I do it quickly. I don't dwell on the would have, should have, could have's. But there's a third option. We can also run toward change. We don't have to wait until it has knocked down our door and disrupted our lives to act, and we don't have to act out of fear. Earlier in the book, I wrote about the importance of following opportunities. Well, if we run toward change... We can create them for ourselves. I believe it is no coincidence that if you view change from a slightly different angle, if you squint your eyes and shift your perspective, it can look a lot like chance. With the right outlook, that's what change is. A chance to do better, do better, and do more.
00:45:56
Speaker 2: Yep.
00:45:57
Speaker 1: I love that. And I think when we get rigid and we've been in that formula for too long or in that place of safety because it's what's provided, it's what we know how to do best, we think we're running out of time anyway, whatever.
00:46:14
Speaker 2: I've got to get you to lose that running out of time. Seriously. I'm in.
00:46:19
Speaker 1: I'll take it in.
00:46:19
Speaker 2: It is going to strangle you. It is, and it has. And you are still young. You have... And forget this biological age stuff, you know, so much is just up here and what you allow yourself to do. So I want you to lose that.
00:46:35
Speaker 1: I have an assignment from Ms. Bonnyhammer. This has been so insightful. We could have spent three more episodes on all the other chapters, but, and we'll show you availability of where to find the book, but I ordered it last year off Amazon, had a ball reading it, and I can see.
00:46:51
Speaker 2: That I'm just going to- All you had to do is tell Gina to ask me to send you one, silly girl.
00:46:55
Speaker 1: She didn't even tell.
00:46:56
Speaker 2: Me to- Use your words.
00:46:57
Speaker 1: Use your words. Use my words. I've been using all of Gina Torres' resources like you wouldn't believe, but this has been, I think, one of the best is meeting you. So thank you so much for.
00:47:08
Speaker 2: To be continued.
00:47:09
Speaker 1: To be continued. Oh, we're going to have you check in at your availability, but- Thank you for giving me this time.
00:47:15
Speaker 2: My pleasure.
00:47:15
Speaker 1: And I appreciate it.
00:47:16
Speaker 2: And interesting.
00:47:17
Speaker 1: Thank you.
00:47:18
Speaker 2: And thank you all.
00:47:20
Speaker 1: How hard can it be? With Diana Maria Riva is a Hyphenate Media Group production in partnership with iHeart's My Cultura podcast network. For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When it comes to our careers, we're faced with many pivotal crossroads along the way, especially in this chapter where we can feel very stuck or dissatisfied. My next guest was once referred to as the queen of cable, and she climbed a ladder of success that began with babysitting a dog. Well, all those experiences in between led her to writing a New York Times bestseller that exposes the many lies that women are faced with at work and the truths we need to succeed. Today, we'll cover some of those lies and crossroads and ask, how hard can it be? Welcome to this episode of How Hard Can It Be? I'm your host, Deanna Maria Riva, and we are talking about midlife's most fantastic bullshit. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. I'm very excited to have my next guest on here. She is an author, but even more impactfully, she is a businesswoman and a media exec from vice chairman of NBC Universal. Started off as a photojournalist on set with dogs. And we'll tell you that story. But one of her biggest accomplishments, aside from being a mother. as well, is writing the book, 15 Lies Women Are Told at Work and the Truth We Need to Succeed. And as you can see, I have it marked, highlighted. And I also have to tell you, Bonnie Hammer, that you could have essentially written an entire Lord of the Rings style anthology of 15 Lies. And I have a few suggestions for you. You could have written 15 lies about marriage and the truth we need to succeed. 15 lies about divorce, but I think there's more than 15. 15 lies about raising children. 15 lies about single parenting. And 15 lies about dating over 50, which I don't think you needed to do, but I did so I can be your guest writer.
00:01:47
Speaker 2: I dated over 40.
00:01:48
Speaker 1: Okay, listen, the game is rough when you're over 40. Did you do the dating app?
00:01:54
Speaker 2: No, because now you're going to make me say how old I am. No. We did not have dating apps when I was, you know, divorced and before I met Dale. You did it through friends, friends of friends, et cetera. Yes. But you didn't go on and do it that way.
00:02:12
Speaker 1: The better way.
00:02:13
Speaker 2: Which means I'm old, but that's okay.
00:02:15
Speaker 1: No, I'm glad that you didn't have to. I did it once, and it's because I lost a bet with a girlfriend, and I said— If I lose, she said, if you lose, you have to go on this dating app.
00:02:27
Speaker 2: I'm not confident enough to do that. I would not have been able to. I would have taken every rejection as a personal trauma. I could not have done that.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: By the way, it's so interesting to hear you say that because welcoming Bonnie Hammer to the show, writing this book, I would have never believed for one second that there was something that wasn't confident about you. That's what's so great about this book. This book, by the way, It's a workbook that I implore you to give to your daughter as she's entering the workforce, whatever line of work she's getting into. But it's also a great workbook to come back to and check in on yourself. Where am I? What resonates with me? And in particular with women in midlife, where we're at, we're not retired. Society would like to tell us we're about to retire. We're not retired. And yet, Check in and see where you are and how this applies. What made you write it, aside from you were pissed on a roller coaster?
00:03:25
Speaker 2: Well, that's really true. I mean, I was one of the only women on this crazy roller coaster because I took a dare. I took a dare from Jimmy Horowitz, who I adore, who does all the legal stuff for the film division of NBCU. And I hate heights. I don't like speed, except when I'm driving, I always speed. Yeah. But he just said, what do you mean you're not going to go? I said, it scares me. I dare you. Anybody dares me, I do it.
00:03:55
Speaker 1: Game on.
00:03:56
Speaker 2: But what I realized walking on it and then surviving it getting off, I was virtually the only woman on that ride. And it was an offsite of NBCU. So there were a lot of women executives and guys there. And I start to think about, other than fear, which, granted, I understand, why was it that all of my friends and colleagues were nicely sitting by their little cocktail tables having a glass of wine, and I come off this thing with my hair out to here, my face completely red, but proud of myself because I took a dare. And I started thinking about two things. One is women don't like to mix– work and or have been told they shouldn't mix work and play. Now, I'm not talking about work and pleasure, work and play. And I was trying to figure out why. And then I started thinking about all these other cliches that we've been brought up to believe are true, that is misinformation, that if you follow it, it basically leads to self-sabotage in your career. And that's really how it started on a roller coaster. But I've also, within my world and within my profession, I've always loved mentoring people, in particular women. And I figured this was my way of paying it forward. I can't mentor every woman I would like to touch. But it was my way of, you know, paying it forward to those women who are trying to navigate a world which right now is even tougher than we've ever experienced because of so many different reasons.
00:05:40
Speaker 1: You know, and when you talk about cliche, I want to dive into the first one that hit me because this is the target audience for this. Well, like I said, millennials, you're heading right here. Pay attention. Gen Z should listen and learn and do differently. But one of the things that I want to dive into, because this is where I'm at with this. And you talk about, see, I have to get my notes because I'm just.
00:06:02
Speaker 2: Very proud of you. That was for a lot of notes. Oh, no.
00:06:05
Speaker 1: You're a good girl.
00:06:06
Speaker 2: No, girl.
00:06:07
Speaker 1: I know how to do homework. I'm an actor, but I know how to study. People who dream, we close ourselves off. The non-dreamers stay open. Dreams guide us, motivate us, and serve as a reminder of what's most important. And achieving them feels great. But it can paralyze you or keep you in a stuck place.
00:06:27
Speaker 2: But I... The way people define dreams is very different. I'm a big believer that if you only follow your dreams in life, you're basically walking through life without a consciousness. It's like.
00:06:44
Speaker 2: There's a big difference between following dreams, following passions, following interests, and succeeding in the world. And I believe that you can't be what you can't see, and you can't dream what you don't know. So when you're young, the dreams you have limit the possibilities of your life. And you can sleepwalk through your entire life if you just follow the dream you had at 6, 12, 16. Mm-hmm. Because when you think about where your dreams came from, what your parents told you, what a school teacher told you, what a course in maybe even college led you to believe. But if you haven't experienced what that means in real life, you're limiting yourself to all these other possibilities that if you just go to the right or the left, you can experience and find your adult dream. Yes.
00:07:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker 2: I think people also feel that if they don't follow their dreams, what are they going to do? My advice is your dream doesn't have to be your job. You don't have to give up a dream. It doesn't have to be your boss. It could still be a passion that you do when you live out, but it doesn't have to be how you make your living.
00:08:00
Speaker 1: No, and you bring that up a lot. You talk about how dreams are like drugs. They're hard to quit. And I think that a lot of us, this generation in particular, we're the regents of resourcefulness. We get things done. We're told the formula and we enact it. And it's hard for us to kind of stray outside of that, maybe because of opportunity or what we sleptwalk through or because it's been taking care of ourselves and our children. So we need to just play it safe. But you do get to a point where I think, you know, you're at a crossroad. And what do I want to do? I haven't done it. And maybe it's because I've ignored some of those off ramps that you talk about. Like, take it. What's the worst that can happen?
00:08:42
Speaker 2: It's opportunities. When I think about how I tripped into television, I was following my passion. I was taking photographs of kids on a set and a kid's television show. It was an entertainment and math show in Boston. I was working freelance, which back then meant you were working for free for credits for a graduate program. And it wasn't until a couple of people got basically fired, I don't know the reasons why, that they just looked at me and said, do you want... You want a job. You want to be a production assistant, which, as you know, is as low as you can go in television. Right. And mine was lower than most because the talent I got to take care of was an untrained sheepdog named Winston. So I was cleaning up crap.
00:09:28
Speaker 1: Biggest diva on the set. Yes.
00:09:30
Speaker 2: So for me, when people say they don't like grunt work, they don't like to do crappy jobs— I literally had the crappiest job ever because I was cleaning up crap, but I did it with a smile. But what that did was allow my bosses, which were many, all from– this was Boston. The producer was from LA, the director was from LA. Because I had a good attitude, that's the only reason I got the next gig. Only reason. I smiled cleaning up dog crap.
00:10:06
Speaker 1: But it was genuine. You wanted to be there too. I think like, obviously, you would have taken it if you didn't want to explore something.
00:10:11
Speaker 2: I wanted to learn.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: There you go.
00:10:13
Speaker 2: And it was just a matter of, okay, I can always quit. I can always leave. I can always try to find something else. But I'm here. Why not? Right.
00:10:23
Speaker 1: So with women in this chapter, and we're stuck in this mindset of whatever the dream or the formula has been, and that fear of taking a risk, you talk about keeping up that hunger or that curiosity to want to learn more and to want to do something different. I am stuck in what I want to see for my career right now. And I'm afraid I'm being a little too rigid.
00:10:49
Speaker 2: Why? How? I mean, how do you feel you're stuck? And why are you putting parameters around her right now? Oh, boy.
00:10:56
Speaker 1: Here I go.
00:10:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm interviewing you now.
00:10:57
Speaker 1: I know.
00:10:58
Speaker 2: I'm in trouble. Okay. Yeah.
00:10:59
Speaker 1: So I did all this homework, but not on myself. I actually think I'm stuck.
00:11:04
Speaker 2: Come on. Turn it around.
00:11:06
Speaker 1: You're like, I've seen it.
00:11:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:11:08
Speaker 1: This is why she has a bestselling book. I think because I know what I want to do and I know what I can do and I know what I'm worthy of doing. And so, and I feel I'm running out of time. And so when they came to me and said, why don't you pitch a podcast? I told, I had a guru tell me that. I had an exec tell me, do a podcast. I'm like, no, horrible answer, absolutely not. And then for a year, it kept popping up. And I thought, if I do that, I'm not going to be able to do this.
00:11:39
Speaker 2: I see. I think by doing it, first of all, you did open yourself up. Yes. And the number of people you can meet just by doing this that could kick other doors open is amazing. See, I'm a big believer. I think we have been brought up, your generation, definitely my generation. I do have years on you, my dear. We've been brought up with this notion of lateral growth, career ladder, upskill, promotion, raises. Everything is termed that you basically, you climb this ladder and you're going to hit this incredible place. The reality is you hit a ceiling. At that last rung, there's nothing left. And all you've done is learned, practiced, experienced a lateral growth process. But you don't have the skills to go right or left. I'm a huge believer in creating a web. Think of it as a spiderweb. where it becomes infinitely larger, but it gets higher, shorter, to the right, to the left. And it's this intricate thing which allows you to have so much varied experience. So when your company gets sold, when AI takes over your job, when the world just changes... You have other stuff to fall back on because you've experienced other stuff than your dream that led you to a specific place without very much other exposure. So I'm a big believer in trying stuff. Because guess what? You don't like it, you trip, you pick yourself up and you try something else. Something else. And you keep going. But the cumulative experience of it gets you a lot further. I mean, I took ridiculous stuff that I hated to do because it was nothing else in a much safer world way back when. And I'm talking 70s and 80s where, you know, I hate numbers. And I had to take a job just to buy time in between TV shows, kids' TV shows. So I did budget work. I hated every minute. Yes, we did have calculators back there, really. So I wasn't just using my fingers. But what it did do was when I, in my hindsight, if I had never worked on somebody else's budget, When I got to a point where I was producing my own shows, where I was hiring, if I didn't understand the inside and out of working a budget and somebody said to me, well, it's going to cost me yay many thousands of dollars to do that, I would have probably said yay or nay ignorantly. When that did start happening, I would look at it and say, there's no fracking way you can get that done in that budget. Go back and really give me a real number. That experience, which I hated, actually gave me such– a grounding of knowledge in an area I never would have had. Yes, I would have had somebody do that for me.
00:14:47
Speaker 1: You took that opportunity to learn.
00:14:49
Speaker 2: But the education was incredible for me.
00:15:02
Speaker 1: They called you the Queen of Cable. You produced some of the most historical shows ever in television. Suits was one of many, but, and, and you were there when streaming hit and then you created a ton of shows during that. That's not just one. That's not linear.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: That's no.
00:15:22
Speaker 1: And the webbing that came out of that, how did you web all the way to there?
00:15:28
Speaker 2: A lot of different reasons and different ways. If you think about it, so much I now can acknowledge because of hindsight, not because I was doing it purposefully. And a lot of the information of the book comes from the wealth of hindsight as opposed to— being so confident at the moment. But part of it was opportunity. Part of it was when I think about starting in kids TV, I never ever thought I'd get out of kids TV. But I tripped, literally tripped into the next job, which was morning talk. And I tripped into running it because somebody fell out. And I just happened to be there at the moment with no experience, but they gave me a shot. I kept zigzagging into different experiences and basically said, somehow I'll figure out a way to do it. But I never lied. I never lied to anybody who was interviewing me to say, oh, I've done that five times, or of course I know what I'm doing. I told the truth. I was able to say, you know, I've never done morning, you know, I don't, I know morning talk. I've watched it for years, but I've never produced for morning talk. I produce dogs and kids. But What I was able to do was hire those around me who knew a lot more than I did, but I was capable of managing them and let their strengths shine through as opposed to how to pretend I knew everything. So my openness kept letting me trip into different jobs, and each one led to another experience. Each one led to another relationship. But the other thing I think this generation doesn't like, I probably hated it when I was living through it but accepted it, was being willing to hear what other people said to me about me, about my work. And I started really believing in what I call tough love or challenging mentors. And if I am really honest myself or those tough people in my life– that ultimately led me to the confidence of being willing to try stuff, fail, pick myself up, try again, and keep moving. So I'm a big believer in having people around you who tell you the truth rather than pat you on the back and tell you how great you are and be your favorite cheerleader.
00:17:53
Speaker 1: And that's a two-part deal, though, because you, okay, let's say now you're in a place in your career, like myself or anyone else, and you know you want to do more, and there's an opportunity to do more. You take the criticism, you take the tough love, and then you talk about going for those opportunities. Go ahead, throw yourself into the ring, your hat into the ring, knowing your professional worth, which is different than your self-worth. We all know that our self-worth just has to be intact on a Tuesday.
00:18:27
Speaker 2: But you have to work your professional worth.
00:18:29
Speaker 1: You have to build that.
00:18:31
Speaker 2: You have to prove to somebody else that you're worthy.
00:18:35
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:18:35
Speaker 2: And that means... First of all, it's having a positive attitude about it. You know, understanding and admitting what you don't know, but you're willing to learn and you're a hard worker. It's all about attitude and willingness to try, but not lie. You know, the minute you tell somebody, you know, you can do something and you know what you're doing because you've done it and you trip and you lie. you lose more than just the job. You lose your integrity. And no one's going to take a chance on you again. So being honest about what you know and what you don't know, and then asking for help from people. What that does is make others want to take you under their wing because you've been honest, you're a hard worker, you have a good attitude. They want to teach you. And they become your bigger supporters.
00:19:23
Speaker 1: I think that.
00:19:27
Speaker 2: There is.
00:19:29
Speaker 1: Routine and there's also an intimidation factor because I do– my biggest complaint about women in this chapter and when we get here is that society is telling us one thing and it's typically pretty negative.
00:19:41
Speaker 2: And what are you hearing? Like what do you hear?
00:19:43
Speaker 1: I'm hearing society tell me that you are running out of time and it's– you know, you either wrap it up and get it now, which you do talk about, don't waste time, or it's not going to happen. And when you want more and you're willing to, you're doing the work and you want to do more work, you're willing, you're open to doing the work. All I can hear sometimes is society telling me you're running out of time.
00:20:08
Speaker 2: And are you talking about ageism within the field? What are you talking about?
00:20:14
Speaker 1: I think a little bit of ageism or lack of interest at a certain point. I think that, you know, I have my bestie who's my little co-host commentary here. She owned a driver's school in Cincinnati, Ohio, driver's education school. She was also a physical therapist assistant, so she did a lot of disability work. The business grew and became huge. When her mother died, who was her everything, and she was an only child, it just shook her up into thinking, I don't want to wait. I want to live. The business has been good. I'm tired of it. So she got to a point where she sold it. She did it right financially. She sold it. She now gives $ 20 facials out of her son's bedroom, who's moved off from college, and she is enjoying the shit out of it. And that's what she wants to do. But But did she.
00:21:08
Speaker 2: Know she wanted to do it or she quit and was trying to find out what she really wants as opposed to just living that dream, which starts to get frustrating if it's not happening.
00:21:18
Speaker 1: Her dream was to let go and do something more. She was either that or open a coffee stand on the beach. And she's having the time of her life. And I admire her for that. And she quit living by the clock when she saw her mother die too young. And so what is this mentality with us that we live trapped with that intimidation of time?
00:21:39
Speaker 2: I think we do it to ourselves. I mean, this is going to sound weird, but... I was very, very lucky within the NBCU world. And yes, I worked my butt off, but I had an amazing team, amazing people, and survived many decades within the NBCU world or the television world at large. And probably when I retired, but it was also at a time when they wanted to retire me. I I was beyond anybody's ken of somebody still standing, which was in my 70s. And probably the oldest chick standing at the time. But I wasn't done in my mind. I wasn't done in my head. And it was still hard, even at that age, having anybody put an ageism on me because I'm not done. And I don't buy it. And I also think our culture... so rewards and supports 20, 30-somethings that the elders who have the experience are pushed away way too early.
00:22:52
Speaker 1: That's my point.
00:22:53
Speaker 2: But I do believe if our culture will only understand if the marriage of the younger generation's with the elder generation of experience could genuinely bond and work together. Yes. The kinds of creations we could come up with, those who know how to get it done and those who have the fresh new ideas. You marry those two. Yes. That's incredible. As opposed to just brilliant ideas that you may not know how to take care of.
00:23:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:23:21
Speaker 2: Perhaps older ways, but we know how to get something done. Yes. So it's interesting. Ageism is funny, but I think most of the time we do it to ourselves because originally it was 60, then it was 65, you know, retirement, end of conversation. I thought that was going to be me too, but it wasn't. And I did not let myself feed into it. And I think society may put out those markers, boundaries, whatever you want to call them. But it's in our power and our being that can say, fuck that. I'm not buying it. And you just keep on going. But you can't keep on going on the same road. You have to make a right turn, a left turn, take a U-turn, You've got to figure out what the obstacle is and try another way. As the book says, I don't believe in no. I don't believe in the word no. My father brought me up, which is why I think I'm talking to you with the sage right now, that there's no such word as can't. If you can't do something, it simply means you're not trying hard enough. So find another way, another direction, another way around it, but don't tell me you can't do it.
00:24:34
Speaker 1: So when do you know to let go? When do you know when to let go, when to say when? Have you had an instance in your life where you were really pushing and fighting for something and you're like, you know what?
00:24:44
Speaker 2: I was always pushing and fighting. I get it. I believe it.
00:24:49
Speaker 1: Was there any instance?
00:24:50
Speaker 2: Yes. For example, I mean, this is a small story, but it kind of talks to what I mean of another way around.
00:25:02
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
00:25:03
Speaker 2: It was just, I mean, GE still owned NBCU. My boss at the time kept telling me I was going to take over NBC Broadcast. I was the cable girl. I had USA, I had SyFy, I had all the cable channels. But at that time, Broadcast was a superstore. We were a stepchild. Broadcast was the real deal. And he told me he was going to give it to me. And then summer came and went, and it Lingered longer, whoever was in the position finally left. And I was ready to step into it. And I remember getting a call from a plane of a colleague of mine, who I still adore to this day, Ron Meyer, who said, by the way, you're not getting NBC. I said, what do you mean? He said, I just know, I just heard, I'm not supposed to tell you, but I want to prepare you for the call you're going to have tomorrow. And I'm totally devastated because I did all of cable. I was making way more money than they were making in the broadcast side because we had two streams of revenue. And I was in shock. But at the time, Ron basically wanted to make sure that I was prepared for the call so I could, quote, unquote, man up to it. And I remember when I got the call from my boss at the time, I– was calm and I said, okay. And I was debating, do I leave now? Do I quit? What do I do? And I decided, no, there's a reason that I don't know that why I'm not getting that job. But if they want to keep me, I'm going to go for something else. So my boss told me, you're going to have the HR person that's going to come to your office on, it was Memorial Day weekend, so on Tuesday, and you tell him what you want. So I literally said, okay, if I'm going to stay, I want a studio of my own and I want more money. I want you to double my salary. They came close to doubling, not quite. And they gave me what is now UCP, which is Universal Cable Productions. And I got a studio out of it. But it hurt. It was painful. But I figured out a way somehow to get something. I didn't know how to run a studio. I had never done my own production. We were the ones who bought it and created a brand and an image, et cetera. And we did it. And obviously, many, many, many years later, the studio is still there.
00:27:38
Speaker 1: So it worked out, which is great. And again, not linear. So when you talk to, to, you know, in your book and you, and you focus on the subject of going in to get something that you want, you say, have a plan.
00:27:51
Speaker 2: Have a plan and don't have an attitude. It's, you can have a plan, but if you whine, complain, you owe me, I'm entitled, you know, you, You have to be bold but not brash. You have to have confidence but not feel entitlement. They're just the style in which you ask for something. And I find humor. Like even with the HR guy, he walked in and I said, oh, you know, I made a joke to start rather than I can't believe what the assholes did to me. You know, I didn't do the– I didn't handle it the way– many people would have handled it with anger and being obnoxious and being, you know, you owe me. I basically sat back and said, okay, if someone were coming to me what would make me want to do something for them? What kind of attitude or sensibility or sense of humor would make me kind of want to be protective rather than say, oh, get the hell out of here. And that's kind of how I've lived my life. When I ask for something, I don't do it out of anger and I don't do it out of resentment and I don't do out of it because you owe me. I maintain, even if it hurts, a sense of humility. And realizing that they have to make decisions for them for reasons I may never understand. But that doesn't mean I should be a bitch about it.
00:29:21
Speaker 1: No, but and yet, but it's good to hear that because it is worth, I think we can come into a situation like this or discussion like that with defenses or a chip on our shoulder thinking we got to be tougher than the guy. We got to be tougher than our male counterpart. We have to, show more attitude.
00:29:37
Speaker 2: See, that's the worst. I think that's one of the biggest downfalls that women tend to believe.
00:29:43
Speaker 1: Go for it. I wrote that one down too.
00:29:46
Speaker 2: It is you have to be tougher. You have to be stronger. You have to be nastier. You have to be more demanding. It doesn't work. It just backfires. It doesn't mean you can't be confident about it. It's the style in which you demonstrate that confidence and your abilities and capabilities. But thinking you have to bitch up just so they think you're strong and tough, it backfires 95%, 99% of the time because nobody wants to bitch around. Right. But do they want a strong woman with a sense of humor who somehow can figure out how to get what they want but not be an asshole? Yeah.
00:30:34
Speaker 1: When you tell women, do it, don't wait, you have nothing to lose, have a plan, what is your idea of a plan? When a woman goes in and says, I want to be considered for this next position?
00:30:47
Speaker 2: It's basically doing your homework. First of all, understanding truly what that position entails. What do I have to know? Where do I have to go? Who can teach me a little bit more before I go in for that interview so I can be more informed and then be honest about who you spoke to about it. Um, It's important to show that you can be a collaborative player in the game because that's what most people need and want as opposed to somebody going in saying, I'm better than that one. I can do it. I can do it all. Don't worry about it. It, again, is stylistic in terms of how you approach everything. whether you're going to get the gig or not. But it's also saying if you don't get it, you know something, if it doesn't work out this time, keep me in mind for next. Or where would you recommend I get the experience so that when I come back in in a month, six months, or a year from now, it's an immediate yes.
00:31:44
Speaker 1: I love that you're putting a pin in for the like, I'll be back if not this year, next. I love that.
00:31:49
Speaker 2: And that's it. Don't think of a no as a permanent no. You know, a no means... Maybe not today, not now, not right here.
00:32:00
Speaker 1: Not here.
00:32:01
Speaker 2: But, you know, figure out another way to come in to get your yes. To me, a no is never permanent, ever.
00:32:08
Speaker 1: I want to know now, shifting to you, Bonnie, as a mother and a spouse, how do you balance this life with home? How did you stop and take care of you during these times? Because this is a demanding life. This was a demanding life, the career.
00:32:25
Speaker 2: First of all, people say you can have it all. In hindsight, I look back and I've been very lucky. I've had a good marriage, kids, profession, all that kind of stuff. But.
00:32:38
Speaker 2: You're never in balance. That's what people have to understand. You are always off balance. When I was on vacation, I always felt guilty I was leaving my colleagues down. When I was at work, I always felt guilty that, you know, my kid's at home, my husband's at home, who's making dinner, what's going on. So I always felt guilty staying or being at work, especially when I traveled.
00:33:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:33:02
Speaker 2: Now, I'm an empty nester. My kids are gone. You know, I have a totally independent life. I still feel guilty because I love my dog at home. So you're always at a balance. And people thinking that you're going to feel good and you're going to feel balanced and you're going to feel whole and everything is going to be just fine because you can have it all at the same time. Yeah. That's a crock.
00:33:25
Speaker 1: It's so refreshing to hear that.
00:33:28
Speaker 2: You may be able to have it all over the decades, but not at the same time. And you have to just know you're going to feel shitty on both sides of the scale.
00:33:39
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a constant tug of war.
00:33:41
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:33:42
Speaker 1: And it sounds to me like sometimes it's just less harsh and less tuggy as other times.
00:33:48
Speaker 2: I want to go back to something because I was going to bring it up and I thought about it too late when you talked about, you know, having... whether it's a more male-dominant world when people are whispering in your ear and you've got to compete with the guys, et cetera. I think one of the reasons why I never bought into that is because I had Barry Diller as a mentor. And Barry didn't care if you were male, female, short, tall, straight, gay, bi. He didn't care who you were. If you were an assistant or the president of a division, couldn't care less. A good idea was a good idea. A bad idea was a bad idea, no matter whose mouth it came out of. And I think it was Barry who was a person who taught me how to kind of navigate and never look at it as somebody else creating the rules for you. You either had good ideas and could present them well or bad ideas. It wasn't because the guys were after you. So I never saw the world, as I think many of my female peers did, that it was– a man's world. I didn't view it that way. And I think Barry was one of those who kicked me in the butt to realize it doesn't matter. It's either a good idea or a bad idea. It doesn't matter who it comes from.
00:35:02
Speaker 1: Well, we need more Barrys in the world. But I do think that that is a very specific and unique type of mentality. And I do feel that I think maybe being the oldest of three sisters and my father never left a toilet seat up in his life and still has it that I have never walked into anywhere thinking that it's a man's world. I need to, you know, assert myself. I have the things that will rattle me, but I do tend to throw myself off a cliff and say, why not me?
00:35:28
Speaker 2: I get that. But that should be a motivator.
00:35:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:35:34
Speaker 2: And frankly, I think one of the things that bothers me A lot is that not enough women bring up other women.
00:35:46
Speaker 1: Say it again.
00:35:49
Speaker 2: It's less so that the guys are after us. It's more women are so afraid because there are so few seats they believe are at the table. Therefore, if they help somebody else or bring someone else up, it may mean they may not get that seat. In my mind, the more women in C-suites, the better. Let's bring them up. And guess what? If you get it and I didn't and I helped bring you up, bravo to you. Win-win. Because, you know, hey, look what I did. She got that. Yeah. But enough women don't feel that. They're still competing for the wrong reasons against the wrong people.
00:36:29
Speaker 1: That's it. They're competing for the wrong reasons against the wrong people. I'm not your fight. I'm not here to take this away from you. And I say all the time on this podcast, but I've said it before, as my collection of girlfriends has gotten a little bit more tailored. By choice. Yeah, by choice, by choice. Women need to know how to be good women to other women.
00:36:53
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. I had an experience a number of years back where I gave my lawyer to another colleague who was I don't remember whether I was chair of my department at that point or vice chair already. And I told him, I said, I want you to tell her everything I make. I want you to tell her my stock options, my salary, what my bonus over the last couple of years. And he says to me, why? I said, why not? The money is not coming out of my pocket. If I can help her as she takes on this new chair role, Get what she deserves because she can go in and say, I know two other people who made blah, blah, blah. It's going to only help her. It's not taking anything away from me. Somebody getting money in their pocket, if I'm stupid enough not to negotiate hard enough for my own money, that's my problem, not hers. Let her know. She got the deal closed and she got good money.
00:37:52
Speaker 1: Okay, I thought you were going to turn and tell me like she stabbed you in the back. No, never.
00:37:55
Speaker 2: Thank God. To this day. Yeah. To this day. She doesn't quite tell that story to other people.
00:38:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:38:01
Speaker 2: But she is a, and we have virtually nothing to do with each other's world. She remains a supporter and a supporter of other women.
00:38:11
Speaker 1: That's, it starts with one.
00:38:13
Speaker 2: Paying it forward.
00:38:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely. What are you, is there anything now, because you have it figured out, and I respect what you say, that all this is coming from hindsight. What are you better at now than you were 30, 40 years ago? At home as a mother?
00:38:29
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's just being more honest with myself.
00:38:34
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:38:34
Speaker 2: And not needing as much hindsight to kind of see who I am and laugh at myself and... Try also not to project on the kids, you know, what I may want for them rather than to applaud what they want for themselves. And also learn. I've been much better in terms of I had a real Jewish mom who could deal with great Jewish guilt. I have mastered not being a guilt giver. because of what I experienced growing up. And it was all for good. My mother was a really good, decent person and a great mom, but she used her own, what she wanted for herself for her kids to accomplish. And that's something that I'm very careful and cautious about, but now it's much more natural than it was. I remember having... to zip when something was about to come out of my mouth. And it wasn't always perfect when it would start falling out. Now it's just I can listen and hear Jesse or Akime talk about what they are doing, want to do, and not offer advice. Just listen.
00:39:46
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a hard one. You don't offer advice.
00:39:50
Speaker 2: No, I'm not 100% perfect at it yet. But I literally have to tell myself to zip and just listen. And if she asks or he asks, so what do you think? Yeah. Then I'll be honest. But if they don't ask, I don't say.
00:40:06
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about the story, because this is also something about this time, this chapter, this season, 40s and above, whatever. And you're somewhere where you don't want to be. And you wanted to always try something. And you mentioned the network exec that started to evaluate her work with students because she was, I think, helping as a tutor or helping her daughter with some of her learning challenges. And she realized she had an affinity for teaching and she loved it. And she said she wanted to potentially go into psychology. And she had already been in the business for 30 years. And you uplifted her. And empowered her to jump and try.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Lizzie did it pretty much on her own. She kind of woke up one day and said, I've done this chapter. And nobody wanted her to leave. She was fabulous within the NBCU world. But she realized that there was something missing from her life, her existence, and wanted to try different things. So she literally, whilst working at NBC, took some graduate courses at Columbia and Eventually left NBC by choice completely on her own and is thriving right now.
00:41:19
Speaker 1: That's what I wanted to ask you. How is she doing?
00:41:21
Speaker 2: Happy, thriving. Doesn't mean that she doesn't miss her colleagues and what she was doing. But she feels much more fulfilled and realizes, you know, and this may not be her end goal. her end deal either. She may still zig or zag off of the psychology and social work that she's done to something else. But she's living out all of her, I don't want to call them fantasies because they're now realities, but all of her adult dreams. She's now putting a toe in the water to see how they really feel. And she's doing incredibly well, which is why I think The adult dream is something you come to because you're experiencing life in a different way and find some passions and some lack of passions.
00:42:14
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:42:15
Speaker 2: And it gives you an opportunity, if you're willing, to put that toe in the water. See how it feels. It may be too icy. You go, oh, my God, that's not for me. Or it could be, ooh, this kind of feels good. I'm going to go a little further with this. I'll take a course. I'll go talk to somebody. I'll freelance. I'll work for free just to experience and follow somebody around for a bit on a weekend. There's so many ways to experiment, but unless you put your toes in the water, how are you ever going to know? Yeah.
00:42:43
Speaker 1: And I think it's important for us to hear that there is such a thing as adult dreams.
00:42:48
Speaker 2: Oh, without doubt. I mean, if I lived my mother's dream, which she planted in my brain cells very early, I would be a lawyer. Okay. And I laugh when I think about me ever. And I thought about that. And while in school, I was going to apply to law school, but something about it didn't feel right. Then it was psychology for a while for me, because I was always good in reading people and being able to navigate. And then I decided, that's kind of, I can always read people. I can always help people. I don't need to be be paid to deal with other people's problems. And it was just odd how I tripped into photography, which turned out to be a passion. I started when I was 12, a little brownie camera, taking pictures of my girlfriends at summer camp and creating my own little wall of photos, which was fabulous. But It turns out it's a passion, and it's still my passion, and I still shoot all the time, but it's.
00:43:49
Speaker 1: Not my boss.
00:43:50
Speaker 2: It's not my boss.
00:43:51
Speaker 1: Is that another form of self-care?
00:43:57
Speaker 2: It could be. It could be, but I love it. I'll walk my neighborhood, and sometimes I carry a real camera. Sometimes I just use my wonderful iPhone, which I now know how to play with in a lot of ways. But I'm always shooting. I'm always seeing it. But I don't ever want it to control me or my life that I have to do it. And I think the reason some of my photographs, you know, some are crappy, but some are pretty good, are because I see it as a pure form of my eyes, my heart, my being now manifesting itself where it used to be a print. Now it's either on my phone or on my computer. But it's something about my life, something about what I've seen, something about what I've experienced or what I feel in an image.
00:44:45
Speaker 1: I want to read this last paragraph because this made me actually tear up. Everything makes me tear up. I'm going to pause. Fortunately, I have a lifetime of running with change and not from it to use it as experience. I embrace whatever new reality I'm faced with as my new reality, and I do it quickly. I don't dwell on the would have, should have, could have's. But there's a third option. We can also run toward change. We don't have to wait until it has knocked down our door and disrupted our lives to act, and we don't have to act out of fear. Earlier in the book, I wrote about the importance of following opportunities. Well, if we run toward change... We can create them for ourselves. I believe it is no coincidence that if you view change from a slightly different angle, if you squint your eyes and shift your perspective, it can look a lot like chance. With the right outlook, that's what change is. A chance to do better, do better, and do more.
00:45:56
Speaker 2: Yep.
00:45:57
Speaker 1: I love that. And I think when we get rigid and we've been in that formula for too long or in that place of safety because it's what's provided, it's what we know how to do best, we think we're running out of time anyway, whatever.
00:46:14
Speaker 2: I've got to get you to lose that running out of time. Seriously. I'm in.
00:46:19
Speaker 1: I'll take it in.
00:46:19
Speaker 2: It is going to strangle you. It is, and it has. And you are still young. You have... And forget this biological age stuff, you know, so much is just up here and what you allow yourself to do. So I want you to lose that.
00:46:35
Speaker 1: I have an assignment from Ms. Bonnyhammer. This has been so insightful. We could have spent three more episodes on all the other chapters, but, and we'll show you availability of where to find the book, but I ordered it last year off Amazon, had a ball reading it, and I can see.
00:46:51
Speaker 2: That I'm just going to- All you had to do is tell Gina to ask me to send you one, silly girl.
00:46:55
Speaker 1: She didn't even tell.
00:46:56
Speaker 2: Me to- Use your words.
00:46:57
Speaker 1: Use your words. Use my words. I've been using all of Gina Torres' resources like you wouldn't believe, but this has been, I think, one of the best is meeting you. So thank you so much for.
00:47:08
Speaker 2: To be continued.
00:47:09
Speaker 1: To be continued. Oh, we're going to have you check in at your availability, but- Thank you for giving me this time.
00:47:15
Speaker 2: My pleasure.
00:47:15
Speaker 1: And I appreciate it.
00:47:16
Speaker 2: And interesting.
00:47:17
Speaker 1: Thank you.
00:47:18
Speaker 2: And thank you all.
00:47:20
Speaker 1: How hard can it be? With Diana Maria Riva is a Hyphenate Media Group production in partnership with iHeart's My Cultura podcast network. For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
