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Henry: Talking with Drew Austin.
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We're doing this in person,
which is kind of new for me.
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And maybe for you too.
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Drew: In person podcasting is back!
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Henry: Yeah, I hope so.
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You've had a few newsletter posts
recently about New York as well.
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Drew: I've lived in New York for 10 years.
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My background is in urban planning, so
a lot of what I write about is how the
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digital and physical worlds collide
and overlap and influence each other.
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Watching how much cities have been changed
by all our digital technology, not just in
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the last 10 years, but well before that.
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It's such a fertile place to observe
different phenomena, and it's also very
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unlike the rest of the United States.
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So in a sense, you're not
always learning that much about
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other places if you're here.
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Henry: Everyone knows what's up in
New York, but then we might not know..
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Drew: The internet is so like central
to that, but other media I guess also
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broadcast the activities of New York to
the rest of the country and the world.
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So everybody I joked, has to know
what the weather's like in New York,
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if there's an extreme weather event,
my mom knows if it's snowing here.
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And I've always thought that was
kind of silly, but that's also..
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Whatever the New Yorker like identity is.
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I feel like that's such a big part of it.
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Like you have to hear what I'm doing,
but I don't care what you're doing.
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That's the provincial New Yorker
looking out at the rest of the world.
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But I mean, I don't like to think that
I've internalized that attitude, but
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it is just being here I think gives you
a lot of food for thought if you care
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about cities in the built environment.
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I mean, I'm really happy to be here
and I think it gives me a lot of
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ideas that I wouldn't necessarily
have if I lived somewhere else.
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Henry: I've been here, I guess like six
years, so it's long enough I suppose.
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Yeah.
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I don't think I feel like a New
Yorker either, but there's a certain
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ethos or culture to the city that
you can't get in a lot of places.
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When I first moved, I didn't
want to be here, but then I
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realized how much I hated driving.
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Seems like the only city that you
can just take a subway, right?
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In the US.
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Drew: That's also really important to me.
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I love not owning a car and I will try
to not have a car as long as possible.
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I think I've written about this
a lot over the last year and a
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half since the pandemic started.
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The pandemic is obviously like
a very physical problem in many
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ways, requiring us to isolate
social distance being transmitted
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by people being close together.
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And how it's kind of been both in
the middle of last year and now post
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vaccine, it seems like New York's
like role in, I guess like having
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a dense urban environment or just
being like the American dense city.
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Everything that's happened
with the pandemic seems to be
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this referendum on New York.
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So last year everyone was very eager
to declare that like New York was dead
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and now everyone kind of has like swung
completely to the opposite direction.
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And everyone thinks New York is is
where you where you want to be right
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now because you can do things again.
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And it's funny how in both situations.
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It somehow becomes more about New
York than you would expect and.
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I mean this is also like a very,
again, like, yeah, New York centric
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thing to say, to like assume that
everyone is thinking about New York.
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But it does feel that way sometimes.
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Henry: Maybe it's self-fulfilling
prophecy that maybe that's, I was
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thinking just memes in general,
like the whole GameStop thing.
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Drew: Yeah, and I mean that definitely
seems to be borne out by the fact
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that I, I haven't checked lately, but
just I know that the GameStop stock
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price is still like way, way above.
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If you're talking about technology
and media, a city is a medium, but
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like also the internet is a different
medium where it just happens to
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be one of the primary theaters
where human nature plays out today.
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Like we attribute a lot of things
to the internet that aren't
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really because of the internet.
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There's certain types of human
behavior that are going to
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happen somewhere no matter what.
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And like a city is one place
that they can be observed and
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the internet is another place.
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So like I think a lot of times
we think Facebook is causing
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us to become bad people.
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But really like that way of being bad was
something that we would've found a way
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to do before, and maybe we just haven't
remembered what it used to be like.
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Or we've idealized the past.
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I mean, some people idealize the future.
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That's what's kind of interesting
about technology, thinking of
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it in terms of like the medium
as Marshall McLuhan used it.
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It's just another place
where people do human things.
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Henry: He was emphasizing the medium
isn't just the way, but the environment.
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We are always thinking about how do
we create tools and affect the world
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rather than the world affecting us.
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Drew: Right?
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That statement about every new
technology is an amputation of,
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Henry: He's known for saying like
it's an extension of our body, but
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then we forget the second part of it,
which is like, it can easily do the
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opposite, which is remove our senses
or remove the need for our senses.
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Drew: You can see things
like certain types of memory.
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You can see it in our culture that other
ways of doing those things have atrophied.
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Memory is sort of like a complicated
thing, but right now nobody feels like
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they're not gonna have most of the
information they need at their fingertips.
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So it becomes less urgent.
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It almost feels pedantic to even..
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I, I'm not complaining about that.
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I feel like it can be kind of missing
the point if you complain about the
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fact that nobody has to remember facts
anymore because they can look them up.
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Right?
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Like that's great.
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I'm happy to not have my
head full of useless facts.
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But there again, like you were kind of
alluding to earlier, there's so many like
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knock on effects and a lot of them are.
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Fairly unpredictable and we kind of
realized that there are problems once
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something has already disappeared.
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Henry: All of us can use like
GPS to like get anywhere we want.
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This is great for all of us
individually, but then maybe before
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you would've asked for directions
and that was like a small amount of
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trust for a stranger that we lost.
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Drew: I noticed that pretty quickly
when smartphones became pretty
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widespread 10 years ago or however long.
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One of the first apps I remember
seeing on the iPhone that I thought
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was really amazing and kind of
like the perfect indication of what
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the iPhone could do was Shazam.
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I remember pretty quickly after
people started to use Shazam to
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identify music, that it became less
acceptable to ask somebody what
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was if you went to a restaurant.
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And you liked the music that was playing.
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First of all, it's like, why are you,
it would be, why are you asking me this?
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You can just Shazam it.
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But secondly, a lot of times people
wouldn't even know what was playing
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because they were just playing like a
Pandora or like algorithmic playlist.
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The person both doesn't need to talk to
you about what it is and doesn't know.
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So they've been removed
from the whole process.
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Henry: Yeah.
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Impersonal.
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I guess like they might even feel
offended that you're asking at all.
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'cause like everyone knows at
this point you're supposed to just
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search Shazam it maybe eventually.
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Like there's no name to the music.
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It's just like all Yeah, like real time
generated from like code or something.
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Drew: Which I is in a way it
happening now because so much music
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is made to like be lo-fi basically.
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Yeah.
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Lo-fi or like Monday moods or whatever.
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Yeah.
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And it's kind of not actually
even really meant to be thought
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of as made by a, an artist.
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It's just almost an engineered product.
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But I think that's actually like,
I mean, directions is also like a
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good, it's an opportunity to help
somebody directly, like on the street.
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With music, it feels even more tragic to
me because asking somebody what music they
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chose to play is such a great opportunity
to talk about something interesting
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that you both are excited about.
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And I mean, we can go do that on Twitter
or social media or whatever now, but
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it's just one little thing that has
gone away, and I think it's kind of
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not perceptible to a lot of people.
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Henry: I think one of your posts
mentioned that too, like when
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you're driving with someone?
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Drew: The disappearance of physical media.
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I wrote about that recently.
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How by reorganizing our like media
archives in this completely digital
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format, we don't have the same ways
to like show each other what we
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like as you could, if you had all
your CDs on a shelf or all your
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records on a shelf at your house.
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Most people who like books still have
bookshelves, although that's also
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kind of going in the same direction
with ebook and stuff like that.
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Again, there's a way of talking about this
that can feel like it's kind of trivial.
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How much do you really need?
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And I actually am like, happy to have
more space in my apartment that's
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not taken up by huge piles of CDs.
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But it is like something that I don't
think that for my generation, there's
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an adequate replacement for it.
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And I mentioned in the post part of
it's just that I've gotten older,
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so like music and showing off what
music you like as you as central to
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my life as it would've been when I
was in my early twenties or teenager.
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It's still like, you know, a way
to learn a lot about somebody.
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Henry: Yeah, we're in my room.
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It's like what's in here?
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Yeah.
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Maybe.
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Well, I put the books in a box, but
otherwise what are we showing off anymore?
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Yeah.
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And maybe that if it's all
online, it's like, you could have
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just looked it up or something.
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Drew: Well, I think social media or
there's, there's an effort to kind of give
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us artificial ways to recreate those types
of things in purely digital environments.
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Like in theory, social media
should be a way to like.
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Show everybody else what you are.
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But the way that it's done in those
media are like, it kind of just
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feels like everyone's shouting
at each other at the same time.
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So you're thinking a lot more about
what you're putting out than what other
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people are are showing or like, I mean,
I think actually an interesting example
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of this is NFTs, the technologies
for displaying your NFTs, which
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are still pretty rudimentary, but.
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I think that's actually filling
the void of something like
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having a record collection that
is a sign of like who you are.
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I'm not that deep in NFTs.
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I don't own any, so I can't imagine using
an NFT to like show anything about myself.
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But I know that people seem to be
trying to do that and are probably
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getting some value out of that.
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And what, what's interesting to me about
that is at some point it feels like the
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last era of the internet or of computers
was kind of eliminating all these things
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from the physical world and putting
them in pure information formats online.
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And now we've completely finished that
process and now we're trying to re
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recreate these physical environments that
we've stripped of all of their purpose.
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Henry: Right.
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Maybe Zoom is like the
epitome of all this.
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So there's all these like gather, like
these spatial apps where you can chat in
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a video game or people are using video
games to have parties or birthdays.
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Drew: Even clubhouse I
thought was pretty spatial.
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I mean, I audio is inherently more
spatial than a lot of the visual
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environments we have on the internet.
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But the way that like you would
drift from room to room, it actually
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did seem to kind of simulate.
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Being at some social gathering or a
place in its own kind of simplified way.
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A lot of what the physical world imposes
on us is these constraints which are
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very fundamental to life in meet space.
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Like I have to travel across
distance to get from my house to
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your house to record this podcast.
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And kind of the magic of technology is
that it eliminates those constraints.
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So it's interesting that we
feel the need to reproduce them.
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It may be suggests to me that we've
sort of given these digital technologies
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00:11:12,288
too many chores to do or too many tasks
that maybe not all of them are best
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00:11:16,218
done online or in purely digital forms.
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00:11:18,903
If we find something lacking
when everything is online it
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00:11:22,043
means that we've moved too many
things out of the physical world.
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00:11:26,483
But that's a, I mean,
that's a huge, I don't know.
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I feel like that's all.
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You could write a whole book about it.
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Henry: On a website, it's like
actually too fast on the server side.
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So they purposely make it slower so that
it feels like something's being done,
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but in reality it's actually an instant.
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00:11:42,883
They need people to perceive that
like work is quote unquote being done.
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Drew: Yeah that's a great example of that.
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And like, it's disorienting
if that goes away.
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Like your actual sensory
cues are like missing.
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You need some of that.
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00:11:56,803
Henry: I don't think you would
wanna have to walk to a Zoom room.
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You still would just teleport.
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We always recreate.
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Yeah.
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00:12:02,683
The same thing in the new medium
and we can't help but do that.
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00:12:05,293
We don't really know how to
imagine something really different.
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Drew: Yeah, assuming that Clubhouse is
not at all what it was six months ago.
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00:12:15,443
I think that was one of its big downfalls
was that it took most of the social
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00:12:20,363
media that we use is asynchronous
and it imposed a synchronous quality
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00:12:22,703
on how we communicate digitally.
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00:12:26,903
And it only worked because it was
this special moment in human history
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00:12:31,643
when everybody was isolated and at
home and had a lot of free time.
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00:12:35,903
So every evening when people
weren't working anymore, like
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they would all be on Clubhouse.
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00:12:40,793
But you, I think you could, and
you saw it kind of start to wane
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00:12:44,143
once people started going back out
and getting vaccinated and stuff.
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00:12:47,263
So I think it was an unnecessary
constraint that we've already
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00:12:50,713
kind of figured out ways to
bypass using the internet.
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00:12:54,633
Twitter is really interesting because it
feels like it's happening in real time.
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00:12:58,143
But it's actually a bunch of people
who just posted and are probably
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00:13:01,263
not even looking at their screen
right now at a very granular level.
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00:13:05,263
Like most of the people that you
see in your Twitter feed aren't
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00:13:07,963
actually on Twitter right now.
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00:13:09,673
They're probably like
doing something else.
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00:13:12,973
It's pretty clear if you have an
opportunity to find out how many
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00:13:14,293
people are online at one time.
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00:13:18,853
There are also a lot of eyeballs
on the screen at any given moment.
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00:13:19,693
Henry: Yeah.
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00:13:22,663
I found myself like not
using it much anymore.
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00:13:25,513
Sacasas was saying how like
there's no way to be silent.
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00:13:26,083
Mm-Hmm.
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00:13:26,773
Online.
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00:13:30,243
Drew: And there's no like
silence paired with presence.
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00:13:35,853
It's like people would notice if you,
if you were silent and on Twitter, then
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00:13:37,683
it would be perceived as an absence.
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00:13:38,913
It would be like, where did Henry go?
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00:13:43,873
But in the physical world, you can be
silent and present at the same time.
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00:13:46,453
And you know, we could be
sitting in this room together,
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00:13:48,253
not talking, and there would be.
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00:13:52,573
Some benefit of shared human
contact there, even though there
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00:13:55,153
was no quote unquote content.
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00:13:58,513
Henry: So this reminds me
of a game that I play a lot.
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00:13:59,443
It's called the Mind.
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00:14:01,183
You're supposed to be silent
when you're playing it.
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00:14:03,688
In short, it's the numbers
one through a hundred.
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00:14:04,498
It's a card game.
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00:14:06,828
And you need to play the
numbers in ascending order.
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00:14:09,748
So like 1, 5, 23, and up.
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00:14:11,458
And it's a cooperative game..
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00:14:14,258
The trick is that you're not
allowed to communicate what
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00:14:15,698
number you have or anything.
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00:14:17,168
So you can only use like body language.
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00:14:20,508
And so that's a great game to
show nonverbal communication.
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00:14:22,353
Drew: Yeah, no, I love stuff like that.
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00:14:26,503
And I think it becomes, I also think
it's sort of like almost a trapping of
285
00:14:26,503 -->
00:14:30,553
knowing somebody better or being closer
to a friend or someone in your family
286
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00:14:35,653
that you can feel comfortable sharing
silence with them while together?
287
00:14:35,653 -->
00:14:39,223
I think that's something that
we don't really feel with
288
00:14:39,223 -->
00:14:40,513
people we don't know as well.
289
00:14:40,543 -->
00:14:43,773
You just have to keep filling the
silence, but as the relationship
290
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00:14:46,353
deepens, it becomes more Okay.
291
00:14:46,653 -->
00:14:50,013
Which I think is very telling
of the value of silence, that
292
00:14:50,013 -->
00:14:53,193
we kind of get more comfortable
with it as we know people better.
293
00:14:53,823 -->
00:14:55,593
Henry: Is that even something we want to.
294
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00:14:59,793
Introduce into digital space,
or is it just like not a thing?
295
00:15:00,273 -->
00:15:03,393
There's live streams and discords
where people join and they just
296
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00:15:05,493
study together and nobody is talking.
297
00:15:06,153 -->
00:15:10,653
Drew: I think in a way actually
that, um, the GM meme is kind of
298
00:15:10,653 -->
00:15:13,413
that too, even though it is a thing.
299
00:15:13,413 -->
00:15:17,163
But because it's just the same
thing being said over and over
300
00:15:17,163 -->
00:15:18,783
again, it kind of loses its.
301
00:15:19,488 -->
00:15:23,958
It's content and it just becomes
this statement between two
302
00:15:23,958 -->
00:15:26,148
people without any real message.
303
00:15:26,178 -->
00:15:27,048
Like a nod.
304
00:15:27,588 -->
00:15:29,988
Henry: Yeah, that sounds like the YO app.
305
00:15:29,988 -->
00:15:32,568
Drew: It's just that reappearing.
306
00:15:32,628 -->
00:15:35,508
I mean, I've seen it in like discord
rooms where everyone's just saying
307
00:15:36,078 -->
00:15:39,378
GM and that's the only message
that's being exchanged in the room.
308
00:15:39,468 -->
00:15:42,588
And obviously the app
that was made recently.
309
00:15:42,618 -->
00:15:44,433
But all that stuff, I
think it speaks to some.
310
00:15:45,408 -->
00:15:47,088
I mean, that's also just kind of a joke.
311
00:15:47,118 -->
00:15:51,798
I can't really like assess whether it
speaks to some deeper need, but it does
312
00:15:51,798 -->
00:15:56,358
seem to be like kind of an example of
something that's not like content in
313
00:15:56,358 -->
00:15:57,918
the way that we normally experience it.
314
00:15:58,248 -->
00:16:00,798
Henry: Should we talk about
your post on Real Life?
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00:16:01,098 -->
00:16:02,658
The title is called Worn Out.
316
00:16:02,821 -->
00:16:06,511
Drew: I wrote a piece for Real Life
a month or two ago, so I became
317
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00:16:10,411
really interested in this idea of
fashion as something that has a
318
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00:16:13,411
relationship to the public space
and there's this reputation of.
319
00:16:14,086 -->
00:16:20,116
People in the Bay Area or Silicon Valley
or in tech not dressing well and obviously
320
00:16:20,116 -->
00:16:23,776
in like New York would be the opposite
end of the spectrum to that which kind
321
00:16:23,776 -->
00:16:29,106
of embodies everything that the Bay Area
is not Culturally, people in New York
322
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00:16:35,586
are known for dressing well or trying to
dress well or caring about that aspect
323
00:16:35,586 -->
00:16:39,636
of their self presentation, and I thought
it was really interesting to kind of
324
00:16:39,636 -->
00:16:41,706
explore maybe the deeper reasons why.
325
00:16:42,756 -->
00:16:45,306
People in tech don't seem to value that.
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00:16:45,306 -->
00:16:48,816
And my hunch or my hypothesis
that I explored and argued in this
327
00:16:48,816 -->
00:16:54,036
piece is that fashion is something
with positive externalities
328
00:16:54,036 -->
00:16:55,566
that enhances the public realm.
329
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00:16:59,796
And if you don't care about that,
then you don't care about fashion.
330
00:16:59,826 -->
00:17:02,616
Now, I think there's another way of
looking at fashion, and I mentioned
331
00:17:02,616 -->
00:17:07,576
this in the piece, that it is a sort of
vain and self-aggrandizing practice so
332
00:17:07,576 -->
00:17:12,991
that people will think I am great, but
I actually don't think of it that way.
333
00:17:13,081 -->
00:17:16,171
This is kind of a great example of what
I was saying about living in New York.
334
00:17:16,171 -->
00:17:21,121
I notice just being on the street
and how interestingly people dress is
335
00:17:21,121 -->
00:17:22,561
something that we all benefit from.
336
00:17:22,611 -->
00:17:27,481
If you dress interestingly, if you have
like a flashy style, then it kind of makes
337
00:17:27,481 -->
00:17:29,611
the whole street scape feel more vital.
338
00:17:29,611 -->
00:17:32,251
And when people like think that
New York is an interesting place
339
00:17:32,251 -->
00:17:33,841
to visit, that's a huge part of it.
340
00:17:34,186 -->
00:17:37,636
So the people watching, half of why it's
interesting is what people are wearing.
341
00:17:38,236 -->
00:17:41,926
My argument in the piece was that
tech isn't interested in creating
342
00:17:41,926 -->
00:17:45,586
those kinds of positive externalities,
and they're not really interested in
343
00:17:46,066 -->
00:17:48,256
enhancing the physical public realm.
344
00:17:48,286 -->
00:17:52,216
And a lot of the environments that we
spend all of our time in online seem
345
00:17:52,216 -->
00:17:57,676
to be these digital simul acra of
public space that don't actually have
346
00:17:57,676 -->
00:18:01,696
some of the necessary qualities of
public space, one of which would be.
347
00:18:02,791 -->
00:18:07,501
Like the fact that there is a commons,
like a shared experience of things
348
00:18:07,861 -->
00:18:13,381
that's not sort of monetized or turned
into data that somebody benefits from.
349
00:18:13,981 -->
00:18:16,501
I'm curious what you thought
about that, or if you have any.
350
00:18:16,501 -->
00:18:17,851
Henry: I was just thinking about myself.
351
00:18:17,881 -->
00:18:19,831
I have to admit, I never
really cared about it.
352
00:18:19,951 -->
00:18:22,351
And then moving here, it made me feel..
353
00:18:22,771 -->
00:18:24,091
Well, I guess I still don't care about it.
354
00:18:24,091 -->
00:18:27,601
It's funny and yeah, it's like
we're both just being to ourselves.
355
00:18:27,631 -->
00:18:31,411
Maybe it's the same thought of
science is objective and then saying
356
00:18:31,411 -->
00:18:35,221
that, oh, my non view of close is
objective, but that's also its own view.
357
00:18:35,251 -->
00:18:36,241
There's no like, it's a statement.
358
00:18:36,241 -->
00:18:36,511
Yeah.
359
00:18:36,511 -->
00:18:37,591
There's no non view.
360
00:18:37,591 -->
00:18:38,551
It's just the tech.
361
00:18:39,391 -->
00:18:41,641
Attire or whatever is a thing, right?
362
00:18:41,881 -->
00:18:42,331
Drew: Yeah.
363
00:18:42,421 -->
00:18:46,711
And you are saying, I never
cared about what I wore, and
364
00:18:46,711 -->
00:18:48,121
then in some ways still don't?
365
00:18:48,121 -->
00:18:51,901
I probably dress nicer than I did
before I moved to New York, just
366
00:18:51,901 -->
00:18:59,521
because the bar is higher for like,
what, I guess like what's acceptable.
367
00:18:59,521 -->
00:19:03,991
But I think about it more now, and
I acknowledge that I gather a lot of
368
00:19:03,991 -->
00:19:08,371
information about other people by what
they're wearing, not in a judgmental way.
369
00:19:08,371 -->
00:19:13,381
Just there's a lot that you kind of
gather right off the bat if you see
370
00:19:13,381 -->
00:19:15,871
somebody and see how they're dressed.
371
00:19:15,871 -->
00:19:20,281
And I, I've come to like, not
only be aware of that, but
372
00:19:20,281 -->
00:19:22,081
to actually appreciate it.
373
00:19:22,081 -->
00:19:25,051
I think it's just really fascinating
to see what you get, what you
374
00:19:25,051 -->
00:19:28,081
learned about somebody in that way.
375
00:19:28,351 -->
00:19:31,411
And I don't think it's
about a competition.
376
00:19:31,441 -->
00:19:34,561
I don't think people are trying, there
are situations where that's true, but
377
00:19:35,371 -->
00:19:38,221
it's not like someone's trying to be
better than everybody else in the room.
378
00:19:38,221 -->
00:19:42,451
I think there is just pure
self-expression happening in many cases.
379
00:19:43,241 -->
00:19:47,291
Henry: Doesn't mean we should dismiss
thinking about the whole industry of
380
00:19:47,291 -->
00:19:50,301
fashion, because you thought that some
people were trying to show off, right?
381
00:19:50,451 -->
00:19:50,841
Drew: Right.
382
00:19:51,091 -->
00:19:55,621
There's a consumerist element to it
that is unavoidable, but that I think
383
00:19:55,621 -->
00:19:57,451
afflicts everything at this point.
384
00:19:57,836 -->
00:20:01,756
Henry: Basically just being more aware of
things that you didn't care about before.
385
00:20:01,816 -->
00:20:07,576
Drew: Maybe because I'm not an example
of a person that dresses in a flashy way.
386
00:20:07,576 -->
00:20:11,866
I almost think it was like more
interesting for someone like me to
387
00:20:11,866 -->
00:20:16,216
write it because if, if like you or
I are appreciating this behavior that
388
00:20:16,216 -->
00:20:20,626
we don't fully take advantage of, I
think it attest to the power of it.
389
00:20:20,626 -->
00:20:22,576
Like, I'm glad someone's doing that.
390
00:20:22,846 -->
00:20:24,286
It's not necessarily me.
391
00:20:24,706 -->
00:20:24,766
Yeah.
392
00:20:24,796 -->
00:20:31,696
But like with any public benefit or
public good, everyone is glad to see.
393
00:20:31,696 -->
00:20:31,756
Yeah.
394
00:20:32,281 -->
00:20:35,761
That it exists, even if they're
not all, it's rare that people
395
00:20:35,761 -->
00:20:39,601
are equally contributing to it,
but everybody benefits from it.
396
00:20:39,601 -->
00:20:45,661
And I think that's important in
healthy societies to have that dynamic.
397
00:20:45,961 -->
00:20:46,501
Henry: Yeah.
398
00:20:46,711 -->
00:20:51,511
I guess going back to like Commons, Andy
Matus kind of post, and he mentioned
399
00:20:51,511 -->
00:20:57,151
like video games being a public good,
but specifically the UI of a video game.
400
00:20:57,751 -->
00:21:01,381
So I guess once a video game comes
out, everyone can just copy that ui.
401
00:21:01,681 -->
00:21:03,271
Remember the game 2048?
402
00:21:03,731 -->
00:21:06,341
That was like a copy of something else,
which is also a copy of something else.
403
00:21:06,391 -->
00:21:09,691
Drew: All of culture I think could
be said to be a version of that.
404
00:21:09,691 -->
00:21:15,931
Like music is often clearly, even
great music is clearly deriving
405
00:21:15,961 -->
00:21:18,691
tons of its characteristics
from what's come before it.
406
00:21:19,121 -->
00:21:22,211
Any art, I would say there's
a version of that happening.
407
00:21:23,171 -->
00:21:28,151
It's very natural and it's what we
should want because once somebody
408
00:21:28,151 -->
00:21:32,141
comes up with something that
works, everyone else can adopt it.
409
00:21:32,741 -->
00:21:35,591
Henry: The style of it, it's
like UI is just fashion of
410
00:21:35,591 -->
00:21:37,421
like software or something.
411
00:21:37,421 -->
00:21:39,491
Maybe tech cares too much about function.
412
00:21:39,921 -->
00:21:40,041
Drew: Yeah.
413
00:21:40,041 -->
00:21:42,021
I think that's actually a
really good way of putting it.
414
00:21:42,051 -->
00:21:45,491
This connects back to architecture because
in modernist architecture there was
415
00:21:45,491 -->
00:21:47,441
this idea, of form following function.
416
00:21:47,441 -->
00:21:49,691
The shape of something or the
form of something should be a
417
00:21:49,691 -->
00:21:51,711
pure expression of its purpose.
418
00:21:51,991 -->
00:21:55,111
There was an idea that if something
was perfectly engineered to fulfill
419
00:21:55,111 -->
00:21:59,251
its function, then there was an
inevitable way they would have to look.
420
00:21:59,251 -->
00:22:04,681
And modernism kind of contradicted itself
by not actually adhering to its own ideas.
421
00:22:05,081 -->
00:22:09,341
Because a lot of modernist architecture
was just this like style that kind of got
422
00:22:09,716 -->
00:22:15,746
applied to everything in a non-functional
way, but the idea was pretty compelling.
423
00:22:15,746 -->
00:22:20,396
And I think I see a lot of that in, in
tech and how, how software is approached
424
00:22:20,396 -->
00:22:25,766
that if, you know, if something's not
contributing to the functional purpose
425
00:22:25,766 -->
00:22:31,346
of the software, then it's excess and
it doesn't really need to be there.
426
00:22:32,381 -->
00:22:36,416
It's like a completely different
medium to think about that in,
427
00:22:36,416 -->
00:22:41,336
because code is inherently functional
and it's not really visible.
428
00:22:41,336 -->
00:22:44,546
So like aesthetics get layered on top.
429
00:22:44,636 -->
00:22:48,116
And there might be a example
of that that I'm like missing.
430
00:22:48,116 -->
00:22:53,396
But I think aesthetics always seem to
come like after the, the underlying code.
431
00:22:53,401 -->
00:22:56,611
Again, with crypto, I think some of
that may have like converged again.
432
00:22:56,611 -->
00:23:01,351
The actual act of doing certain things
in code is not necessarily functional
433
00:23:01,351 -->
00:23:04,521
except to like express some point or idea.
434
00:23:05,331 -->
00:23:05,451
Henry: Yeah.
435
00:23:05,451 -->
00:23:08,511
My friend Angus, he has a book
called, like if Hemingway wrote
436
00:23:08,511 -->
00:23:10,356
JavaScript, it's really cool.
437
00:23:10,576 -->
00:23:12,921
He just implements algorithms
and then he'll write them in
438
00:23:12,921 -->
00:23:16,071
different authors like Hemingway or
Shakespeare like, and he'll have like
439
00:23:16,071 -->
00:23:17,151
different ways of writing comments.
440
00:23:17,151 -->
00:23:20,046
So it's like showing you
how aesthetic coding can be.
441
00:23:20,076 -->
00:23:21,216
It's also just writing.
442
00:23:21,266 -->
00:23:24,176
One of the first things I worked
on was what's called a code linter.
443
00:23:24,896 -->
00:23:27,146
And you know, like linting your
clothes, like get off like,
444
00:23:27,236 -->
00:23:28,796
you know, hair or whatever.
445
00:23:28,826 -->
00:23:31,886
And so we have that, which is
essentially just spell check for
446
00:23:31,916 -->
00:23:33,716
coding, but it's only aesthetic.
447
00:23:33,716 -->
00:23:35,006
So it's like you need a space here.
448
00:23:35,006 -->
00:23:36,956
You, you need to change
your name and your variable.
449
00:23:37,466 -->
00:23:40,286
It's really helpful on a team
where you have like a hundred
450
00:23:40,286 -->
00:23:41,486
people, you wanna make sure that.
451
00:23:41,811 -->
00:23:42,921
Everyone's on the same page.
452
00:23:42,921 -->
00:23:43,881
So we have a standard.
453
00:23:44,301 -->
00:23:46,791
But the problem with standards
is that it removes the ability
454
00:23:46,791 -->
00:23:48,411
of people to express themselves.
455
00:23:48,411 -->
00:23:52,641
And so some people might protest
against the use of a linter, at
456
00:23:52,641 -->
00:23:53,751
least on your personal project.
457
00:23:53,761 -->
00:23:54,961
Just let me do whatever I want.
458
00:23:55,321 -->
00:23:56,131
Drew: Well, that's really interesting.
459
00:23:56,131 -->
00:24:01,111
And I, as a non programmer, it's
interesting to me that there is, you
460
00:24:01,111 -->
00:24:04,231
know, like that there would be like
a desire for expression just in the
461
00:24:04,231 -->
00:24:07,381
way the code is written and like
how it raises the question of how
462
00:24:07,381 -->
00:24:10,171
much flexibility should there be?
463
00:24:10,801 -->
00:24:15,121
I was thinking as you were describing
that there, it's code is weird in that
464
00:24:15,121 -->
00:24:16,681
you consume it two different ways.
465
00:24:16,681 -->
00:24:20,161
You can actually read the code
as it's written or you encounter
466
00:24:20,161 -->
00:24:24,781
it as a user who is experiencing
the, the results of the code.
467
00:24:24,781 -->
00:24:29,191
And like the latter is obviously much
more common and something you don't really
468
00:24:30,031 -->
00:24:34,581
need any literacy in engineering to do.
469
00:24:34,581 -->
00:24:39,021
It's actually the purpose of it to be
something that people can engage with
470
00:24:39,021 -->
00:24:41,031
without understanding the underlying code.
471
00:24:41,041 -->
00:24:44,131
But I don't, I guess there's a
version of that with reading a book.
472
00:24:44,131 -->
00:24:49,591
Like you could read the book or you
could experience the second order
473
00:24:49,591 -->
00:24:55,921
effects of the book as it disseminates
through the world and affects culture.
474
00:24:56,041 -->
00:24:58,381
But with code, I think
that loop is much tighter.
475
00:24:58,411 -->
00:25:02,521
The relationship between what's
written and what the effect of
476
00:25:02,551 -->
00:25:07,151
what was written is a very direct
and predictable relationship.
477
00:25:07,331 -->
00:25:11,651
Henry: I also think about how people
create programming languages themselves.
478
00:25:11,921 -->
00:25:11,981
Yeah.
479
00:25:12,011 -->
00:25:14,771
And usually language design is top down.
480
00:25:14,771 -->
00:25:15,281
That makes sense.
481
00:25:15,281 -->
00:25:19,361
You have a group of experts that
kind of decide what goes in and
482
00:25:19,361 -->
00:25:21,311
our tool in a way, democratizes.
483
00:25:22,391 -->
00:25:25,271
That design because they
can make their own things.
484
00:25:25,301 -->
00:25:28,931
Then maybe propose them to the committee
and then they'll eventually get included
485
00:25:28,931 -->
00:25:31,331
in the standard, even though that might
take like three years or something.
486
00:25:31,391 -->
00:25:35,111
That gets into this whole philosophy
around how do you design a language
487
00:25:35,111 -->
00:25:37,031
and what's good for people?
488
00:25:37,091 -->
00:25:40,421
Should there be one way of doing things or
should they be many ways of doing things?
489
00:25:40,451 -->
00:25:44,081
And so there's this guy, Larry
Wall, and he's the creator of Pearl.
490
00:25:44,426 -->
00:25:44,606
Okay.
491
00:25:44,606 -->
00:25:47,786
And he gave this talk, like he
said, that Pearl is the first
492
00:25:47,786 -->
00:25:49,616
postmodern programming language.
493
00:25:49,676 -->
00:25:49,946
Wow.
494
00:25:50,006 -->
00:25:52,376
Which I think is an interesting
concept from a functional
495
00:25:52,376 -->
00:25:53,426
utilitarian point of view.
496
00:25:53,426 -->
00:25:55,316
It's like, yeah, you should only
have one way of doing something
497
00:25:55,346 -->
00:25:56,486
'cause you're gonna confuse people.
498
00:25:57,126 -->
00:25:59,571
Drew: And there's also the
idea that the best way is the
499
00:25:59,571 -->
00:26:01,311
way that you've arrived at.
500
00:26:01,491 -->
00:26:01,581
Yeah.
501
00:26:01,581 -->
00:26:04,011
And so why would you not, why
would you do something that's
502
00:26:04,011 -->
00:26:05,211
not the best way of doing it?
503
00:26:05,301 -->
00:26:05,661
Henry: Mm-Hmm.
504
00:26:06,121 -->
00:26:09,391
Drew: But then there's hubris
in that because who can like.
505
00:26:10,141 -->
00:26:12,781
Why would you assume that you
found the best way to do something?
506
00:26:12,841 -->
00:26:16,861
I mean, I understand the desire to believe
that, but it's unlikely to be true,
507
00:26:17,401 -->
00:26:19,171
Henry: Even from the creator themselves.
508
00:26:19,321 -->
00:26:22,321
Like why do you think, just 'cause
you made it, that you're gonna also
509
00:26:22,321 -->
00:26:23,941
be the best person to determine that?
510
00:26:24,041 -->
00:26:27,941
Cause Illich, he talks a lot about how
standardizing, like I think it was a
511
00:26:27,941 -->
00:26:33,161
Spanish or Chinese was like a way for the
government to like impose on their people.
512
00:26:33,551 -->
00:26:35,111
Through programs, like,
okay, that's kind of true.
513
00:26:35,141 -->
00:26:37,481
You are making them
think in a certain way.
514
00:26:37,541 -->
00:26:40,121
It might not even be intentionally,
but it does that just by
515
00:26:40,121 -->
00:26:42,041
limiting what they can express.
516
00:26:42,041 -->
00:26:42,101
Drew: Yeah.
517
00:26:42,101 -->
00:26:47,981
George Orwell has written about that too,
how it's kind of a totalitarian action.
518
00:26:47,981 -->
00:26:49,691
I guess 1984 has that.
519
00:26:49,906 -->
00:26:52,906
The double speak and all the
weird language in the book.
520
00:26:52,986 -->
00:26:55,956
He's written essays about that too
and just how it shrinks the range of
521
00:26:55,956 -->
00:27:00,156
thoughts that people can have if you
reduce the options in the language.
522
00:27:00,156 -->
00:27:02,766
Henry: Yeah, and I think that
it speaks to the idea that
523
00:27:02,766 -->
00:27:04,386
there's only one value in tech.
524
00:27:04,436 -->
00:27:06,296
Which is like ability and efficiency.
525
00:27:06,356 -->
00:27:08,276
But you're assuming that
there's no other metric.
526
00:27:08,299 -->
00:27:09,829
Drew: Do you think that's
changing at all though?
527
00:27:09,829 -->
00:27:12,229
I feel like I see more evidence now that.
528
00:27:13,024 -->
00:27:14,764
There are those other value systems.
529
00:27:14,764 -->
00:27:17,914
Maybe it's just because I'm more
plugged into the communities of
530
00:27:17,914 -->
00:27:23,254
people that are working on things
than I was like 10 or 20 years ago.
531
00:27:23,254 -->
00:27:26,614
Henry: People are more
wary of tech values.
532
00:27:26,614 -->
00:27:27,964
It's a very broad statement.
533
00:27:28,024 -->
00:27:32,249
I guess my concern, that's someone
that's sympathetic to it, bringing in old
534
00:27:32,254 -->
00:27:34,414
values back into the new medium, right?
535
00:27:34,474 -->
00:27:37,174
It's so easy to do that by accident.
536
00:27:37,184 -->
00:27:41,114
The artifacts that we make, embody
our values whether we want to or not.
537
00:27:41,424 -->
00:27:45,114
If you have a different mental model
of how the code works than them,
538
00:27:45,264 -->
00:27:47,754
that's why you can't understand it,
because they are thinking from a
539
00:27:47,754 -->
00:27:52,644
certain viewpoint, and it's like if
you can buy into that viewpoint, it'll
540
00:27:52,704 -->
00:27:56,754
be easier to go through the, say the
tutorial or whatever on how it works.
541
00:27:57,294 -->
00:28:00,444
Instead of just pretending that
like, code is code, you know, people
542
00:28:00,444 -->
00:28:03,174
say it all the time, unless you
understand why they said something.
543
00:28:03,174 -->
00:28:06,294
You're just doing what I, I
call like archeology, trying
544
00:28:06,294 -->
00:28:07,524
to figure out like a mystery.
545
00:28:07,524 -->
00:28:08,664
Like how do they do this?
546
00:28:09,204 -->
00:28:09,834
Drew: That's actually..
547
00:28:10,074 -->
00:28:15,444
As someone who, what you just described,
I would say I've dabbled in coding, but
548
00:28:15,454 -->
00:28:20,704
I definitely am no expert and, certainly
don't do it professionally at all.
549
00:28:20,734 -->
00:28:22,384
Actually, that's not even totally true.
550
00:28:22,384 -->
00:28:26,294
But, the way you're describing it,
I feel like the farther you are from
551
00:28:26,294 -->
00:28:29,294
it or the less you understand it,
the more you would not realize that.
552
00:28:29,493 -->
00:28:34,263
If you don't have any understanding
of coding as I don't, relative to
553
00:28:34,293 -->
00:28:39,033
someone like you, it seems from the
outside more like there's likely to
554
00:28:39,033 -->
00:28:44,062
only be one way of doing things because
it's kind of perceived as this super
555
00:28:44,062 -->
00:28:48,922
rational system for creating things
that do things in very predictable ways.
556
00:28:48,972 -->
00:28:53,802
The more I've learned about how code
actually works, the more I've come to
557
00:28:53,802 -->
00:28:55,572
understand what you just described.
558
00:28:55,572 -->
00:28:58,679
And it's much more of an
art than I ever realized.
559
00:28:58,689 -->
00:29:02,289
Henry: One way of thinking about it
is just trying to be aware of the fact
560
00:29:02,289 -->
00:29:04,119
that like everything can have bugs.
561
00:29:04,309 -->
00:29:07,789
My code can have bugs, like my
program, but then the browser that
562
00:29:07,789 -->
00:29:10,009
I use can have bugs, which it does.
563
00:29:10,429 -->
00:29:12,259
And then even the program language itself.
564
00:29:12,439 -->
00:29:13,399
Yeah, that can have bugs.
565
00:29:13,399 -->
00:29:15,979
And then the CPU that you use can
have bugs like all the way down.
566
00:29:16,369 -->
00:29:17,479
So it's not that predictable.
567
00:29:17,509 -->
00:29:21,859
So they have to have error correcting,
like built in to be resilient to like
568
00:29:21,859 -->
00:29:24,939
these kinds of random fluctuations
of electricity or something.
569
00:29:25,269 -->
00:29:27,339
Drew: I like that you said the word
resilient because I do feel like
570
00:29:27,339 -->
00:29:31,329
resilient is another word for there
being multiple ways to do something.
571
00:29:31,385 -->
00:29:35,165
And that's kind of necessary for something
to actually be resilient, whether
572
00:29:35,855 -->
00:29:38,485
in a system like a city or in code.
573
00:29:38,485 -->
00:29:42,595
I think it's a generalizable
quality of resilience.
574
00:29:42,745 -->
00:29:45,115
I mean, modernism, again,
that was the problem with it.
575
00:29:45,115 -->
00:29:47,815
It kind of connects back to that
idea of one way of doing things.
576
00:29:47,815 -->
00:29:52,285
I feel like a lot of the things that get
grouped under the term modernism, a system
577
00:29:52,285 -->
00:29:59,605
that's completely totalized, that has one
way of working and things that have more
578
00:29:59,605 -->
00:30:04,229
flexibility and more resilience built
into them, have stood the test of time.
579
00:30:04,229 -->
00:30:07,469
And I mean modernism as a
20th century phenomenon.
580
00:30:07,469 -->
00:30:08,879
I think it kind of had its moment.
581
00:30:08,909 -->
00:30:11,099
Henry: For maintenance and any
kind of infrastructure you're
582
00:30:11,099 -->
00:30:13,904
gonna want that resilience,
that's literally the whole point.
583
00:30:13,954 -->
00:30:17,164
Drew: Over and over again that,
that you want things to be resilient
584
00:30:17,404 -->
00:30:24,094
and only in like temporary periods
of time where people forget about
585
00:30:24,304 -->
00:30:25,534
what's gone wrong in the past.
586
00:30:25,534 -->
00:30:29,374
Does it become possible to like
produce something that's not resilient?
587
00:30:29,914 -->
00:30:33,004
I mean, honestly, we're probably
in another one of those periods.
588
00:30:33,004 -->
00:30:35,734
I think we're always in a
period like that in some.
589
00:30:36,889 -->
00:30:41,569
Aspect of life where like something's
being over-engineered to be kind of too
590
00:30:41,569 -->
00:30:47,469
rigid or too narrow and we ultimately pay
the price and we learn too late that like
591
00:30:47,619 -->
00:30:49,179
we should have made it more resilient.
592
00:30:49,179 -->
00:30:52,609
And then we learn the lesson in
that space, but then we make the
593
00:30:52,609 -->
00:30:53,809
same mistake in a different domain.
594
00:30:53,809 -->
00:30:54,049
Yeah.
595
00:30:54,099 -->
00:30:57,279
I also think one of the best and
like most time honored sources of
596
00:30:57,279 -->
00:31:03,129
resilience in different areas of
society is just more people having
597
00:31:03,129 -->
00:31:06,579
agency and more people being empowered.
598
00:31:06,579 -->
00:31:11,709
And instead of having a more top-down
system, having a lot of that agency
599
00:31:11,709 -->
00:31:15,499
sort of at the lower levels, what I
think you could see that in terms of
600
00:31:15,499 -->
00:31:19,129
like communities, small businesses, the
more of those types of things you have,
601
00:31:19,969 -->
00:31:22,819
the more resilient society usually is.
602
00:31:23,359 -->
00:31:28,549
The more consolidation happens, the
more likely it is to be not resilient.
603
00:31:28,669 -->
00:31:29,719
Henry: The commons.
604
00:31:29,779 -->
00:31:32,359
Like, you know, this idea
that nobody can own it.
605
00:31:32,469 -->
00:31:36,549
There's no rules that you can
even think of to impose on people.
606
00:31:36,639 -->
00:31:41,409
Drew: Instead of rules that are
customs for engaging with it, but
607
00:31:41,409 -->
00:31:45,399
everyone kind of just understands
what they, and everyone sort of sees.
608
00:31:46,239 -->
00:31:50,049
The commons as, as something
to be protected and not to be..
609
00:31:50,499 -->
00:31:50,889
Henry: Managed.
610
00:31:50,889 -->
00:31:52,509
Drew: Captured for oneself or..
611
00:31:52,559 -->
00:31:53,789
Managed is a good word.
612
00:31:54,419 -->
00:31:57,809
Henry: Those rules are internalized in
some sense, like they're not written down.
613
00:31:57,909 -->
00:31:59,019
Everyone understands them.
614
00:31:59,379 -->
00:32:03,459
Drew: And it's kind of like the culture
is like an organism that regulates
615
00:32:03,459 -->
00:32:09,669
itself in a constant process of sort of
subtly nudging behaviors towards where
616
00:32:09,669 -->
00:32:15,969
they need to be rather than hard rules
that are enforced via punitive measures.
617
00:32:16,639 -->
00:32:21,139
Especially Illich's writing on the
Commons is so valuable because when
618
00:32:21,139 -->
00:32:26,249
I read it, I realize how few examples
there are of anything like a commons
619
00:32:26,249 -->
00:32:30,179
in contemporary life, even things
that we think of as commons are not.
620
00:32:30,179 -->
00:32:33,659
And like when I say public space,
yeah, that is not a commons.
621
00:32:33,659 -->
00:32:38,819
It's just space that's been,
you know, marked off to be used
622
00:32:38,819 -->
00:32:40,769
by groups of people at once.
623
00:32:40,769 -->
00:32:44,819
But I think a, an actual commons in
which you can, like gather resources
624
00:32:45,269 -->
00:32:47,819
or do more types of things is not even.
625
00:32:47,819 -->
00:32:50,699
It's not, it's like a completely
different thing than public space.
626
00:32:50,699 -->
00:32:53,729
And I think public space is maybe
a, a more restricted version.
627
00:32:53,759 -->
00:32:53,849
It's
628
00:32:54,419 -->
00:32:57,359
Henry: usually just like space that
the government allows people to use.
629
00:32:57,399 -->
00:33:01,779
Why can't I buy a ping pong table and then
let everyone use it I can't even do that.
630
00:33:01,779 -->
00:33:05,439
Drew: People's behavior changes
when they know that they're
631
00:33:05,439 -->
00:33:06,909
not engaging with the commons.
632
00:33:06,909 -->
00:33:11,454
What you described, if that was not
prohibited in the park, then it would
633
00:33:11,454 -->
00:33:14,634
instantly be a problem because too many
people would try to do things like that.
634
00:33:14,684 -->
00:33:17,394
Because everybody sees it as,
I'm gonna try to claim as much
635
00:33:17,394 -->
00:33:21,504
of this as possible for myself,
either temporarily or spatially.
636
00:33:21,504 -->
00:33:26,874
And in the commons, that wouldn't
happen because the whole society
637
00:33:26,934 -->
00:33:30,924
that is the steward of the commons
would understand that that ruins it.
638
00:33:31,404 -->
00:33:33,954
Henry: Understood that there's
some kind of way of managing,
639
00:33:33,954 -->
00:33:34,794
Drew: there would be a protocol.
640
00:33:34,824 -->
00:33:34,974
Yeah.
641
00:33:34,974 -->
00:33:38,364
That was easy for everybody
to follow and understand.
642
00:33:39,114 -->
00:33:42,419
Henry: And maybe that inherently means
that it has to be local and like Yeah.
643
00:33:42,419 -->
00:33:43,469
Not really scalable.
644
00:33:43,559 -->
00:33:47,729
It sounds like it relates to when you were
talking about like airport lounges, right.
645
00:33:48,239 -->
00:33:50,699
Drew: I think it was last week,
the background of this post.
646
00:33:50,749 -->
00:33:54,319
I went to the US Open, the tennis
tournament, which happens at
647
00:33:54,319 -->
00:33:56,689
the end of August and beginning
of September in New York.
648
00:33:56,689 -->
00:34:00,909
And the venue, which I'm sure, I think
this is like common at every stadium
649
00:34:00,909 -->
00:34:04,779
or arena now, but, there were these
Amex lounges all over the grounds.
650
00:34:05,049 -->
00:34:09,159
And there were like chase sapphire
lounges and it felt like an airport
651
00:34:09,159 -->
00:34:12,909
or something from an airport that's
now been exported out of airports to
652
00:34:13,869 -->
00:34:18,189
urban environments, or, I mean, that's
like a private space, a private event.
653
00:34:18,189 -->
00:34:22,059
But actually since I wrote that
post, I was in Manhattan down
654
00:34:22,059 -->
00:34:23,409
by the South Street Seaport.
655
00:34:24,069 -->
00:34:25,689
And there was an Amex lounge.
656
00:34:25,899 -->
00:34:25,959
Wow.
657
00:34:25,989 -->
00:34:28,809
Just out on the street for people to use.
658
00:34:28,809 -->
00:34:32,169
And they had like a little bar and
people could like charge their phones.
659
00:34:32,169 -->
00:34:33,819
But you just got in, if you have the card.
660
00:34:33,899 -->
00:34:37,889
And I was like, now this, this kind
of logic is sort of disseminating
661
00:34:37,889 -->
00:34:41,909
throughout space where we have
these enclaves that are kind of
662
00:34:41,909 -->
00:34:43,679
nested inside of other enclaves.
663
00:34:43,679 -->
00:34:47,069
And you need special permission
or you need some special
664
00:34:47,069 -->
00:34:49,559
status often as a consumer.
665
00:34:50,159 -->
00:34:53,219
If you have the right consumer
status, you get access to this space
666
00:34:53,219 -->
00:34:55,409
that everyone else can't get into.
667
00:34:55,409 -->
00:34:57,319
And that's not new by any means.
668
00:34:57,399 -->
00:34:59,739
But I mean, the airport's kind of
a place where you're familiar with
669
00:34:59,739 -->
00:35:01,239
that and expect to encounter it.
670
00:35:01,819 -->
00:35:04,189
Because even getting into an
airport, you have to clear the
671
00:35:04,189 -->
00:35:06,049
hurdle of having booked a flight.
672
00:35:06,679 -->
00:35:09,799
And then within the airport
there's more and more exclusive.
673
00:35:10,504 -->
00:35:14,164
Spaces that you can all get into
if you have like that specific
674
00:35:14,464 -->
00:35:18,594
boarding pass or this credit card
that gets you into this lounge or
675
00:35:18,594 -->
00:35:20,364
some status on a certain airline.
676
00:35:21,324 -->
00:35:26,094
And now it seems like that's leaking
out of airports and it's everywhere.
677
00:35:26,304 -->
00:35:28,494
And I think that that's probably
been the case for a while.
678
00:35:28,494 -->
00:35:32,214
And obviously there've been
different types of exclusive
679
00:35:32,214 -->
00:35:34,284
environments throughout history.
680
00:35:35,139 -->
00:35:40,479
But this feels maybe new because it
kind of coexists so easily, and I think
681
00:35:40,479 -->
00:35:45,969
when everything is, is sort of digitally
tracked and monitored, you can have the
682
00:35:45,969 -->
00:35:51,669
exclusive Amex lounge, like just right in
front of like, like rubbing elbows with,
683
00:35:51,879 -->
00:35:54,249
with quote unquote public space around it.
684
00:35:54,454 -->
00:35:57,334
In the past, you would've needed a
more heavy handed way to separate
685
00:35:57,334 -->
00:35:58,954
those different spaces out.
686
00:35:58,954 -->
00:36:01,114
But now they can all just
kind of intertwine each other.
687
00:36:01,114 -->
00:36:02,584
Henry: Are they just on
the street or something?
688
00:36:02,584 -->
00:36:04,654
Drew: Yeah, it was just like out in
the middle of the street with like
689
00:36:04,654 -->
00:36:06,334
a little, like a rope around it.
690
00:36:06,974 -->
00:36:07,604
It's kind of funny.
691
00:36:07,604 -->
00:36:10,017
Henry: That kind of reminds
me of SoulCycle Peloton?
692
00:36:10,047 -->
00:36:10,137
Yeah.
693
00:36:10,137 -->
00:36:12,417
They have the outdoor
makeshift gym, I guess.
694
00:36:12,447 -->
00:36:12,897
Drew: Yeah.
695
00:36:12,957 -->
00:36:15,927
And then the space kind of becomes
an advertisement for itself.
696
00:36:15,957 -->
00:36:16,977
Henry: Because it is open, right?
697
00:36:16,977 -->
00:36:17,067
Yeah.
698
00:36:17,067 -->
00:36:17,787
Everyone can see it.
699
00:36:17,797 -->
00:36:21,907
Drew: People see it and they wonder
what they have to do to have access
700
00:36:21,907 -->
00:36:26,837
to it, and it just kind of bolsters
the brand via that visibility.
701
00:36:27,197 -->
00:36:28,907
Henry: Instead of like a gym where you..
702
00:36:29,237 -->
00:36:30,467
I don't know if you can see through..
703
00:36:30,527 -->
00:36:30,677
Drew: Yeah.
704
00:36:30,677 -->
00:36:34,247
Well, a lot of gyms have big glass
floor to ceiling windows, so you can
705
00:36:34,247 -->
00:36:37,517
see, I don't know, I don't know if
that makes them seem more enticing or
706
00:36:37,517 -->
00:36:41,267
not, but I do feel like the Equinox
brand is pretty like powerful.
707
00:36:41,267 -->
00:36:46,722
In different sectors like gyms or WeWorks,
there's all these different versions
708
00:36:46,722 -->
00:36:50,142
of spaces where you're kind of buying
a membership to a desirable space and
709
00:36:50,142 -->
00:36:52,302
then you have unlimited access to it.
710
00:36:52,302 -->
00:36:55,682
And that's kind of the product, is
just being in the space and that's
711
00:36:55,682 -->
00:37:00,472
what you're paying for, rather than
getting any specific good or service.
712
00:37:01,062 -->
00:37:03,622
It's more about just
existing within the brand.
713
00:37:03,682 -->
00:37:06,992
Henry: And making it more like
part of your day to day or just
714
00:37:06,992 -->
00:37:08,522
make it feel like it's just normal.
715
00:37:09,017 -->
00:37:11,717
Yeah, well, everyone goes to Starbucks,
so it's like you go there to work.
716
00:37:11,717 -->
00:37:13,007
It's not even about coffee anymore.
717
00:37:13,077 -->
00:37:15,897
I think did, did they change the
policy where like you could like
718
00:37:15,897 -->
00:37:17,007
just sit there or something?
719
00:37:17,527 -->
00:37:20,547
Drew: I think there's been some
different eras of that because
720
00:37:20,547 -->
00:37:21,717
there was a whole thing with..
721
00:37:21,767 -->
00:37:24,627
I remember it came up last
year during Black Lives Matter.
722
00:37:24,687 -->
00:37:29,870
Somebody got kicked out of a Starbucks
and, um, they were forced to change
723
00:37:29,870 -->
00:37:31,820
their policy and allow people to be in..
724
00:37:32,015 -->
00:37:34,775
I think the question was whether or
not the person had bought coffee.
725
00:37:34,775 -->
00:37:36,565
And I think now they've
pulled back on that.
726
00:37:36,565 -->
00:37:38,155
You can be in there no matter what.
727
00:37:38,155 -->
00:37:42,055
I've always assumed that that was the
case with any fast food type place.
728
00:37:42,055 -->
00:37:44,785
I always kind of thought that you could
go in McDonald's and nobody would ever
729
00:37:44,785 -->
00:37:45,685
question what you were doing there.
730
00:37:45,685 -->
00:37:49,575
And actually McDonald's, I think
has become one of the main public
731
00:37:49,575 -->
00:37:52,805
spaces that people use in different
types of urban environments.
732
00:37:52,835 -->
00:37:57,685
Smaller towns that don't really
have other third places, mcDonald's
733
00:37:57,685 -->
00:38:02,695
sort of fulfills that role, which
is kind of a, a sad statement.
734
00:38:02,745 -->
00:38:07,545
And it's so like your presence in
a place like Starbucks is still so
735
00:38:07,545 -->
00:38:13,875
compromised, but it feels public just
because it is more public than most of
736
00:38:13,905 -->
00:38:15,885
the other environments we have access to.
737
00:38:16,025 -->
00:38:20,885
And I mean, it's kind of this consistent
branded environment that appears around
738
00:38:20,885 -->
00:38:22,925
the world now, and you can find it.
739
00:38:23,825 -->
00:38:28,265
In any, like, pretty much any big city
in the world and know exactly where
740
00:38:28,265 -->
00:38:29,855
you're getting what to expect inside.
741
00:38:29,855 -->
00:38:33,575
And I think that consistency makes
it more desirable for people to
742
00:38:33,575 -->
00:38:38,675
like, or in certain situations people
like welcome that familiarity, but
743
00:38:39,275 -->
00:38:42,785
it's not, I feel like a very small
part of that is about the coffee.
744
00:38:43,275 -->
00:38:45,805
Henry: It is interesting that
it's like, that's like where the
745
00:38:45,805 -->
00:38:49,715
corporate side is becoming the commons
because the common is that knowing
746
00:38:49,715 -->
00:38:51,005
that we've all been to Starbucks.
747
00:38:51,005 -->
00:38:53,885
Drew: It's like discreet spaces
where you would just be in them to
748
00:38:53,885 -->
00:38:58,385
make a transaction now evolve into
like relationships that are ongoing.
749
00:38:58,415 -->
00:39:02,545
I feel that very strongly with the credit
card lounges because it's all about
750
00:39:03,115 -->
00:39:10,195
forming a relationship with American
Express and then you are in this club that
751
00:39:10,235 -->
00:39:16,175
gets different amenities and access to
certain spaces and events and products and
752
00:39:16,175 -->
00:39:22,895
discounts and it's all about you feeling
warm towards American Express and almost
753
00:39:22,895 -->
00:39:29,815
thinking of them as, some sort of people
that are gifting you all these benefits.
754
00:39:30,085 -->
00:39:31,986
Henry: It's like a clan or a guild.
755
00:39:32,256 -->
00:39:35,136
I also read something about
there's a dating ad Bumble.
756
00:39:35,326 -->
00:39:38,126
They're trying to make a space
for people to have dates.
757
00:39:38,276 -->
00:39:40,156
Drew: That's pretty interesting.
758
00:39:40,156 -->
00:39:41,326
I think it's in New York.
759
00:39:41,326 -->
00:39:44,656
I think it's gonna be a coffee
shop or cafe or something.
760
00:39:45,376 -->
00:39:49,486
Anytime something I think of is an app
like suddenly has a physical presence
761
00:39:49,486 -->
00:39:51,106
in the world, it always makes me laugh.
762
00:39:51,136 -->
00:39:54,206
And I mean, there's more and
more of the Amazon Go stores.
763
00:39:54,206 -->
00:39:59,606
It feels very weird and like
bizarre every time I see one.
764
00:39:59,606 -->
00:40:01,556
Like I just walked past one
the other day in Midtown.
765
00:40:01,556 -->
00:40:08,876
It's like sort of a AI generated like
approximation of like what a store is.
766
00:40:08,906 -->
00:40:14,966
They are basically the product of,
Amazon's data, about what types of
767
00:40:14,966 -->
00:40:17,486
things people want on a daily basis.
768
00:40:17,486 -->
00:40:20,516
That could be in like
a bodega type setting.
769
00:40:20,616 -->
00:40:22,926
They just reverse
engineered the corner store.
770
00:40:24,066 -->
00:40:24,246
Henry: Yeah.
771
00:40:24,246 -->
00:40:25,416
That reminds me of when.
772
00:40:25,941 -->
00:40:29,001
People used to like ab
test, like buttons and Yeah.
773
00:40:29,481 -->
00:40:30,591
The most trivial things.
774
00:40:30,641 -->
00:40:34,241
Drew: Actually when I went, have you been
in one of the Amazon physical bookstores?
775
00:40:35,021 -->
00:40:35,532
Yeah, I did.
776
00:40:35,532 -->
00:40:35,533
Yeah.
777
00:40:35,538 -->
00:40:39,671
I went in one of those a while back and
I remember just thinking the same thing.
778
00:40:39,671 -->
00:40:45,431
It felt like the organization of the
store was completely chaotic and not
779
00:40:45,431 -->
00:40:49,721
based on any traditional notion of
how you should organize a bookstore.
780
00:40:49,721 -->
00:40:52,931
You know, like there's very,
like, familiar conventions.
781
00:40:52,931 -->
00:40:54,611
If you go into a bookstore about.
782
00:40:55,316 -->
00:40:56,726
You know, there'll be a fiction section.
783
00:40:56,726 -->
00:41:00,326
There'll be, you know, poetry,
like then all the different
784
00:41:00,326 -->
00:41:01,766
categories of nonfiction.
785
00:41:01,796 -->
00:41:05,936
In the Amazon store, it just felt,
it actually felt like the physical
786
00:41:05,936 -->
00:41:11,146
manifestation of like the Netflix home
screen where it's just rows of content
787
00:41:11,216 -->
00:41:12,686
filed according to different categories.
788
00:41:12,686 -->
00:41:12,776
Right.
789
00:41:12,776 -->
00:41:14,426
But they're not mutually exclusive.
790
00:41:14,426 -->
00:41:17,166
I can't even begin to like, yeah, yeah.
791
00:41:17,556 -->
00:41:19,956
Henry: Well they're all like
the most popular things, right?
792
00:41:20,116 -->
00:41:24,616
I wanna be able to feel like I can
create my own serendipity, but they
793
00:41:24,616 -->
00:41:29,536
kind of force it on you and they're
kind of ruins the joy of just finding
794
00:41:29,536 -->
00:41:31,426
something new 'cause of the algorithm.
795
00:41:31,486 -->
00:41:33,706
Drew: And it also feels
like fake serendipity.
796
00:41:33,706 -->
00:41:39,346
Because someone clearly thought very hard
about what you were going to encounter
797
00:41:39,346 -->
00:41:40,696
as you move through this environment.
798
00:41:40,786 -->
00:41:40,906
Yeah.
799
00:41:40,906 -->
00:41:48,196
And tried to make it more likely, whereas
other, I think the serendipity as it
800
00:41:48,466 -->
00:41:53,746
has been known traditionally is more
like there is no mastermind or like.
801
00:41:53,866 -->
00:41:56,266
Maybe there's a well-designed
environment that makes it more
802
00:41:56,266 -->
00:42:01,576
likely, but it's not trying to ensure
that you have a certain outcome.
803
00:42:01,906 -->
00:42:03,906
It just enables that to happen.
804
00:42:03,936 -->
00:42:06,966
Henry: The fact that it might not
happen is why it's serendipitous.
805
00:42:06,971 -->
00:42:10,511
Not that it was made to happen or
it's a hundred percent gonna happen.
806
00:42:10,821 -->
00:42:12,771
That's how New York is as the city itself.
807
00:42:12,871 -->
00:42:15,876
Although I haven't had it happen
recently, but I used to meet
808
00:42:16,086 -->
00:42:20,446
people I knew all the time, just
randomly walking or taking a subway.
809
00:42:20,836 -->
00:42:22,426
Drew: That's like one
of my favorite things.
810
00:42:22,476 -->
00:42:24,816
I think everyone feels that way.
811
00:42:24,816 -->
00:42:29,196
It sort of releases this massive
amount of endorphins or something that
812
00:42:29,196 -->
00:42:34,446
happens because it really does, like,
I think it's some deep human, thing
813
00:42:34,446 -->
00:42:36,406
to value that or to appreciate it.
814
00:42:36,876 -->
00:42:41,256
Henry: It's the opposite of let's schedule
a date to like meet up or whatever.
815
00:42:41,256 -->
00:42:45,636
I just find myself
wanting to plan less and..
816
00:42:45,666 -->
00:42:48,366
Drew: That would be the dream is
like just to live in a place..
817
00:42:49,236 -->
00:42:52,686
I feel like the last time I really
had that, 'cause I've lived in pretty
818
00:42:52,686 -->
00:42:58,086
big cities, but I think that's, it's
been said that like one of the reasons
819
00:42:58,176 -->
00:43:03,666
people like college so much is because
it's the only one of the only times
820
00:43:03,666 -->
00:43:07,056
in their life or maybe the last time
in their life that they live in like
821
00:43:07,056 -->
00:43:09,006
a walkable place where everybody.
822
00:43:09,786 -->
00:43:12,386
It kind of simulates like a
community in the traditional..
823
00:43:12,386 -->
00:43:14,906
Everything good about a community
without a lot of the downsides.
824
00:43:14,956 -->
00:43:18,736
You have those serendipitous encounters
constantly throughout the day.
825
00:43:18,936 -->
00:43:22,836
You walk everywhere, which in turn
makes serendipity more likely.
826
00:43:22,836 -->
00:43:27,516
Unlike the more restrictive forms of
community that have characterized like
827
00:43:28,296 -->
00:43:32,946
most of human civilization, college is
not, it doesn't have like the confinement.
828
00:43:33,311 -->
00:43:34,421
You ultimately leave.
829
00:43:34,501 -->
00:43:38,391
And you are able to do whatever you
want in a way that hasn't always been
830
00:43:38,391 -->
00:43:41,331
as easy in other types of communities.
831
00:43:41,411 -->
00:43:44,261
I think there is a lot to that, that it
is like, you know, a place where like
832
00:43:44,261 -->
00:43:49,121
there's huge amounts of serendipity, which
is just an indicator of a lot of other
833
00:43:49,151 -->
00:43:52,091
positive social qualities that we want.
834
00:43:52,311 -->
00:43:53,661
Henry: It's like a side
effect where you can't..
835
00:43:54,706 -->
00:43:57,916
Can't make it happen, but if
you have those other things in
836
00:43:57,916 -->
00:43:59,306
place, then it'll go through.
837
00:44:00,266 -->
00:44:04,276
Drew: It's like an outcome of a very
intricately constructive environment that
838
00:44:04,426 -->
00:44:10,566
can only really arise over time with the
ingredients being in place or the right
839
00:44:10,566 -->
00:44:13,686
characteristics of the place allowing.
840
00:44:14,376 -->
00:44:15,726
Things like serendipity to happen.
841
00:44:15,726 -->
00:44:17,906
It just means that it's
a well-made environment.
842
00:44:17,906 -->
00:44:20,756
Henry: Do you think that the
digital space can do that?
843
00:44:21,086 -->
00:44:25,776
Drew: I think it can, but I think the
physical environments are so complicated
844
00:44:25,776 -->
00:44:30,216
and the ones that we've like, like a
city for example, or a town, there's
845
00:44:30,216 -->
00:44:36,291
just so much going on there it's
very difficult to build every quality
846
00:44:36,291 -->
00:44:38,481
of that into a digital environment.
847
00:44:38,481 -->
00:44:41,031
So I think you can definitely enhance
digital environments and give them
848
00:44:41,031 -->
00:44:45,411
better qualities over time and fix
things and tweak things and make
849
00:44:45,411 -->
00:44:47,871
them better and make them more human.
850
00:44:48,541 -->
00:44:52,151
But I think that just because the nature
of digital space is so fundamentally
851
00:44:52,151 -->
00:44:56,411
different from physical space, you're
gonna end up with a different outcome.
852
00:44:56,411 -->
00:45:01,451
And anytime you try to simulate something
that is present in the physical world,
853
00:45:01,451 -->
00:45:04,901
it's harder to faithfully reproduce it.
854
00:45:04,931 -->
00:45:07,751
I think you look at, like, I've, I keep
referring to Twitter because that's
855
00:45:07,751 -->
00:45:10,691
where I spend the most time online.
856
00:45:10,721 -->
00:45:14,201
There's a whole different set of
norms that exists on non-spatial
857
00:45:15,221 -->
00:45:16,751
digital environment like Twitter.
858
00:45:16,751 -->
00:45:21,441
That is like, there are moments on
Twitter that feel like serendipity,
859
00:45:21,441 -->
00:45:24,331
but it's a completely different
type of serendipity than the type
860
00:45:24,331 -->
00:45:26,341
that you get in the physical world.
861
00:45:26,371 -->
00:45:29,461
It's just a different type of environment.
862
00:45:29,461 -->
00:45:33,481
And I think it's interesting when you
see the types of features that people
863
00:45:33,481 -->
00:45:37,687
demand from a site like Twitter,
which kind of is notoriously not
864
00:45:38,047 -->
00:45:42,577
added many new features or changed
the product much over the last decade.
865
00:45:42,577 -->
00:45:45,337
But something like demanding the edit.
866
00:45:45,337 -->
00:45:47,617
But yeah, I think is a
really good example actually.
867
00:45:48,302 -->
00:45:51,152
in the camp of like, we
don't need an edit button.
868
00:45:51,152 -->
00:45:54,812
And I don't really see the benefit
of it, but I think, I mean,
869
00:45:54,812 -->
00:45:56,342
I know why people ask for it.
870
00:45:56,422 -->
00:46:00,502
but just the way that we relate to
like the information in front of
871
00:46:00,502 -->
00:46:05,212
our faces in an environment like
Twitter, I think is so different.
872
00:46:05,242 -->
00:46:10,912
The idea of like a tweet being kind of
like fully flexible and being changeable
873
00:46:11,362 -->
00:46:13,402
via the edit button, like the way that we.
874
00:46:14,392 -->
00:46:17,512
Would engage with, with that type of
information is different than in the
875
00:46:17,512 -->
00:46:21,082
physical world when there's more of
like, if something gets changed, there's
876
00:46:21,082 -->
00:46:22,522
more evidence that it was changed.
877
00:46:22,522 -->
00:46:28,002
All this like fake news stuff that keeps
coming up on Facebook or every, every
878
00:46:28,002 -->
00:46:34,422
website or, or platform, like, I just
think a lot of it stems from the fact
879
00:46:34,422 -->
00:46:36,102
that we don't have as much context.
880
00:46:37,362 -->
00:46:40,932
On the internet and like we could,
a lot of like what people want
881
00:46:41,922 -->
00:46:45,282
from environments that feel more
spatial is just more context.
882
00:46:45,282 -->
00:46:49,692
And I think the physical world's very
good at providing context and it doesn't
883
00:46:49,692 -->
00:46:53,442
come naturally to digital environments.
884
00:46:53,492 -->
00:46:55,322
Henry: The history of
where something came from.
885
00:46:55,322 -->
00:46:58,292
It's like I know that someone's
used this thing or like someone's
886
00:46:58,292 -->
00:46:59,522
been here before, but like..
887
00:46:59,972 -->
00:47:03,092
Drew: On a piece of paper, if something's
been rubbed out and rewritten,
888
00:47:03,172 -->
00:47:04,702
there's more evidence of that.
889
00:47:05,062 -->
00:47:08,862
That's like a narrow example,
but I think the physical world
890
00:47:08,862 -->
00:47:12,342
tends to just leave more traces.
891
00:47:12,342 -->
00:47:12,942
Henry: Traces, yeah.
892
00:47:13,002 -->
00:47:14,052
Drew: Of everything.
893
00:47:14,622 -->
00:47:16,572
Henry: And it's maybe that
goes all the way back to this
894
00:47:16,572 -->
00:47:17,622
whole program language thing.
895
00:47:17,627 -->
00:47:19,482
It's like that's not
something someone thought of.
896
00:47:19,482 -->
00:47:20,352
They're not like, oh.
897
00:47:20,772 -->
00:47:23,862
Let's make it easier to track like
what happened in the past or whatever.
898
00:47:23,952 -->
00:47:24,192
Drew: Yeah.
899
00:47:24,942 -->
00:47:28,842
And again, I mean that to, to bring
up, like NFTs again, that is like
900
00:47:28,842 -->
00:47:33,882
a, that's the type of like feature
that I think is being sort of
901
00:47:33,882 -->
00:47:38,682
copied from pre-digital, like modes
of existence and being replicated
902
00:47:38,712 -->
00:47:40,302
or like artificially introduced.
903
00:47:40,672 -->
00:47:44,902
The idea that like the providence
of an NFT can be or anything
904
00:47:44,902 -->
00:47:46,072
on the blockchain, you know?
905
00:47:46,102 -->
00:47:46,282
Yeah.
906
00:47:46,282 -->
00:47:47,632
That actually leaves a.
907
00:47:47,977 -->
00:47:51,367
Trail immutable, like trail like
I think that's the type of thing
908
00:47:51,367 -->
00:47:56,587
where we're reacting to some of the
problems with earlier versions of,
909
00:47:57,637 -->
00:48:00,787
of software or, or the digital world.
910
00:48:00,787 -->
00:48:03,847
Henry: Is it good to create
that water cooler type place?
911
00:48:03,847 -->
00:48:05,827
You coming here is like you had to.
912
00:48:06,637 -->
00:48:09,517
Take time to go A to B, and then
everything online's instant.
913
00:48:09,517 -->
00:48:14,137
So it's like, yeah, the waiting room,
whatever that means, so that people
914
00:48:14,467 -->
00:48:17,047
have a space where they can stop.
915
00:48:17,477 -->
00:48:20,027
Drew: The waiting room is an
interesting example, like a place
916
00:48:20,027 -->
00:48:24,302
that you're in, but you're not really
there for any particular reason.
917
00:48:24,307 -->
00:48:24,332
Mm-Hmm.
918
00:48:24,417 -->
00:48:25,247
You're just there.
919
00:48:25,397 -->
00:48:25,697
Yeah.
920
00:48:26,087 -->
00:48:30,557
Like I think that everyone ends up with
some digital space that is like that.
921
00:48:30,957 -->
00:48:36,507
The default website or app that
you go to if you're just mindlessly
922
00:48:36,507 -->
00:48:39,147
on the internet and not really
thinking about what you're doing.
923
00:48:39,177 -->
00:48:41,337
Like for me, that would
probably be Twitter.
924
00:48:41,757 -->
00:48:43,527
For some people it's a discord server.
925
00:48:43,627 -->
00:48:45,122
Henry: The feed is the waiting room.
926
00:48:45,182 -->
00:48:46,202
Drew: It is kind of a waiting room.
927
00:48:46,202 -->
00:48:51,392
Like you're just, a bunch of people are
just sort of there hanging around, like
928
00:48:51,872 -->
00:48:53,102
figuring out what they're gonna do next.
929
00:48:54,387 -->
00:48:56,907
Henry: That's funny because
the waiting room is literally
930
00:48:56,907 -->
00:48:58,637
about time rather than space.
931
00:48:58,637 -->
00:48:59,777
Because you could be anywhere, right.
932
00:48:59,777 -->
00:49:02,117
And you know, you're in line
for something else, and then now
933
00:49:02,117 -->
00:49:04,127
you're waiting by joining Twitter.
934
00:49:05,737 -->
00:49:08,557
Drew: You're in the physical and
digital waiting room at the same time.
935
00:49:09,387 -->
00:49:11,457
Henry: But you've like
outsourced the waiting room.
936
00:49:11,457 -->
00:49:14,917
'cause you could be talking to the person
next to you in line, but obviously you're
937
00:49:14,917 -->
00:49:16,297
not, you're not gonna talk to them.
938
00:49:16,297 -->
00:49:18,757
Drew: I kind of said this a different
way earlier, but I do think Twitter
939
00:49:18,757 -->
00:49:21,857
is interesting, and you could say the
same of Instagram or Facebook, but
940
00:49:21,887 -->
00:49:27,557
it's this massive body of work that's
being completely produced by mostly
941
00:49:27,557 -->
00:49:31,637
people that are in the middle of doing
something else or like waiting for
942
00:49:31,637 -->
00:49:37,637
something real to happen, or like taking
a break from like talking to somebody.
943
00:49:38,222 -->
00:49:42,602
I feel like all of my Twitter behavior
is just in these tiny little moments
944
00:49:42,602 -->
00:49:49,502
between things that I would consider
like real activities, and now I've
945
00:49:49,502 -->
00:49:54,332
tweeted like thousands of times and
it, it's just like all the product of
946
00:49:54,932 -->
00:49:59,582
these weird fragments of time when I
was like distracted from something else.
947
00:49:59,662 -->
00:50:02,842
Henry: Well, the way you use it
is definitely reflective of that
948
00:50:02,842 -->
00:50:06,772
then, which I appreciate, but
I don't know what I would say.
949
00:50:06,777 -->
00:50:08,277
Drew: There are a lot
of different approaches.
950
00:50:08,277 -->
00:50:14,607
some people very much take it seriously
and think of it as a way to network
951
00:50:15,207 -->
00:50:17,877
or build their personal brand or
promote something that they're doing.
952
00:50:17,877 -->
00:50:20,397
And I use it to promote
things that I've done too.
953
00:50:20,487 -->
00:50:25,707
But my primary usage of it is stray
thoughts that I'm firing off just
954
00:50:25,707 -->
00:50:27,447
to kind of get them out of my head.
