Wood Ducks & Nesting Boxes with Matt Ferry

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All right, welcome to this episode of High Balls and BS presented by Gundog Outdoors.
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This is the first part of March and seasons are wrapped up, unless, of course, you're chasing snow geese back north.
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Between the calendars and work schedules, I'm excited to bring the final three episodes to you soon.
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Today's guest and subject is certainly timely and something to hopefully folks revisit before next spring as well.
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But I'm joined by Matt Ferry of the Pentagon Ducks Unlimited chapter.
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Hope I got the right chapter, Matt.
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That's correct.
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Here in Northern Virginia, and he runs much of the wood duck nesting box program for the region as well.
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But really appreciate you taking time this evening to join me, Matt.
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Absolutely.
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And Sean, thank you again for the platform to talk about the goodness of what we do.
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Yeah, no, certainly.
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And so I I'll I'll back up a little bit.
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I've always had a hot soft spot for wood ducks, my dad and I out in Oregon.
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They were obviously greenheads, everybody loves.
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And we get some wood ducks now and then, but when with the area thick, it was really good.
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We just kind of always enjoyed them because you know, fantastic table fare as well.
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But we would put up some wood duck boxes in the slough of the place that we did a lot of hunting, just kind of helped going.
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So it's always kind of been interested in wood duck nesting boxes and trying to learn more.
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And then I had talked to Max Fizzano was on last year or last season and offline.
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We we had talked, he mentioned all the work that you do.
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And I can't remember the thousands of broods, I think just last year alone he had mentioned.
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So I was like, Well, I definitely want to talk to Matt and learn more.
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It was great to go out in the field with you guys the other day as well.
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No, uh well, you know, first of all, when you and I had originally connected and talked about it, I thought that it might be a good way to start if you came out and did box checks with us just to get a feel for what we do and how we do it before we did the podcast.
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And I'm happy and glad that you know you and Liam and John and Alex were able to come out this past weekend and get a feel for how we do it and you know, like why we do it and the way that we do it.
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So for that, I'm I'm really glad that and I, you know, I'm hopeful that you guys enjoyed it.
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I enjoy it.
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I sound a little bit kind of geeky about it, but it's kind of like every time I get a chance to check boxes, it's like Christmas morning for me, right?
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Like being able to see, like, what do we got?
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Let's take a look, right?
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And uh that's part of the reason that I enjoy what we do, and particularly with the key getting the kids involved.
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I mean, having the kids involved is a really big part of it.
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And I think I mentioned to you, like, I've got an 11-year-old daughter, and she's been crawling ladders and checking in wood duck boxes since she was four.
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And it's one of those things where it's kind of like she doesn't get a choice because her dad's a duck hunter.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, it's it's kind of funny with kids sometimes.
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They kind of lack of returns, they kind of get forced in some of our adventures and hobbies.
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But once they get into it, they just really enjoy it.
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You see the eyes light up, and doing the nesting boxes is a great way for them to kind of get a little bit of a chance to nerd out and and get into the science.
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Like, so for instance, I know most listeners know, so Liam, my oldest, he's 12, and so he's doing biology or life sciences and middle school.
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So he's I was talking it up beforehand, and then afterwards, like, well, you can talk to your science teacher about.
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He's like, Oh, yeah.
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And just kind of really dug it and got into it.
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It was great.
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And you know, that's a it's a great project to to get kids involved with.
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So I'll back up a little bit.
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So, I mean, I think most everybody is knows, but if they don't, wood ducks are a cavity nester.
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You're not building hen house or hen houses or hen nests like you do with mallards.
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You know, you're basically making a wooden box that can go either to a tree or it can go to a post, right?
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Correct, correct.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I think originally, and I'd have to, I probably should know this and know the history of it.
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And I probably did at one time, but I'm forgetting.
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But I believe that it was originally started at a wildlife refuge in Illinois, and you had a couple of biologists, and I want to say this was in the 50s, and they had experimented and built boxes out of plywood.
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Okay, and they realized that it worked, right?
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And that's kind of where the whole movement for wood duck boxes started.
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So it's probably 70 years old, 70 plus, right?
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So the idea being, I mean, I think I shared this with you when we met last weekend, is that on the Atlantic flyway, and I could be wrong on this, but I had heard at one time the mid-Atlantic region, at least where the largest concentration of nesting wood ducks is within, I think, a 10 to 15 mile radius of Quantico, Virginia.
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Oh, really?
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And so stretching over to the Maryland side across the other side of the river, but like we're right in, like we are in the we're on the X, right?
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And that's part of why we do it where we do it.
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It's also part of why we get the results in the production that we do because we're in the right spot.
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Oh, interesting.
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I didn't realize that.
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So I got so who did and you explained it to me, but how did you get into this program and who did you learn from?
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Well, i i if I may, there's a little bit of a longer story to this.
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So my family, and maybe like you, you know, I come from a hunting family, right?
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And my father and my mother are from the same small town in central West Missouri, about two hours south of Kansas City.
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The town is Nevada, it's spelled like Nevada, but it's Nevada, Missouri.
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And if you're from there, it's Missouri.
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And it's about 18 to 20 miles from Fort Scott, Kansas, so it's right on the border.
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So my dad had grown up shooting mallards in flooded pit oaks.
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And then he came out to Washington, D.C.
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with my mom in 1970, was working on the hill, and realized that they didn't have a lot of ducks out here.
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So he ended up getting involved with got on a goose lease over in Talbot County near St.
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Michael's Royal Oak on Plain Dealing Creek.
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And, you know, we used to go over as kids.
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And I think my father was always glad that he had sons because as soon as we were old enough to carry stuff, we were running decoy bags out of you know to the pits and doing the whole bed.
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But the story, the story as it's told to me, I don't remember it because I was too young to remember it, is they were the Bellevue Oxford Ferry, I think we're on the Bellevue side, and they would have a lot of people down there feeding ducks.
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Right.
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And so we're down there, and I don't know how old I was.
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I think my brother was, I mean, he was probably a toddler, so I might have been five or six or seven, who knows, whatever it was.
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And you know, I'm there and we're feeding the ducks, and I hear this guy, my dad and my mom are behind me, and I hear this guy go, What kind of duck is that?
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Is that you know, is that a McGanzer?
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And so I turned to the guy and I said, Hell no, man, that's a wood duck.
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And of course, my mom gets upset with my dad, like, Dan, where does he get like and my dad's going, I don't know where you guys, you know, this whole bed.
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And so perhaps I've had a duck crush on woodies since I was in single digits, right?
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But they've always kind of been the bird that, you know, I love mallards and I love teal and I love all you know, pintails and all the other stuff, but woodies are kind of my jam.
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So that's kind of how that, that's how it started.
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Now, in terms of wood duck boxes, I really didn't, you know, like I used to hunt a lot at McKee Becher's in Montgomery County in Poolsville.
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Yeah, and I would see the boxes out there in the marsh in the flooded timber and you know in the swamps or doing whatever.
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I really didn't get connected formally to a wood duck box program until about 2010.
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And so I was working for Customs and Border Protection in Crystal City, Virginia, and there was a former retired Army Ranger who I think had seen, you know, my screensaver had seen a picture of my dog coming back with a mallard.
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And he said, Hey, he goes, you know, you should, you know, I'm part of this Pentagon chapter, you should come out.
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And I said, All right, so I went out.
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And so then I would say I probably got into it in about 2011.
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And the program that we had, which is the same one that you attended, was at Mason Neck, right?
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So Mason Neck's got half, it's about half and half in terms of Virginia State Park and also Elizabeth Hartwell National Wildlife Refuge, which was originally set up for bald eagles.
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So, you know, I got into it.
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We would go check the boxes.
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I was like, all right, you know, and then over time, as I got more into it, and I realized I go, why are we checking these boxes that never produce and we keep putting in bedding and they never produce?
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And so I started asking questions and I sort of, you know, like and it got to a point where we're like, well, Matt, why don't you run you run it?
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I said, okay, I'll run it.
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You got questions, you you figure it out.
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Exactly, right?
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So, of course, being the person that kind of, if I don't know something, I'll figure it out, do the research, or I'll find somebody who knows it.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So I reached out, there's a gentleman named Cliff Brown who started the Maryland Wood Duck Initiative.
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And I want to say it was like early aughts.
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I don't exactly remember when he started it, but I think he was, I want to say he was like ducks unlimited conservationist of the year in like 04, 05.
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But I found out he lives in DC.
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And so I reached out to him and I just said, hey, I need help.
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And of course, he was more than willing to help.
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He was more than willing to kind of explain to me kind of how to do stuff.
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And you know, this is a guy that runs, I mean, he's he manages over 1800 boxes in the state of Maryland.
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And I think he produces somewhere in the neighborhood of 8,500 ducklings a year.
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And this guy has seen everything and anything, right?
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And so he was always willing to answer the phone, he was always willing to call me back.
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And so when I would call him with a question, he'd be like, Oh, I remember back in whatever year it was, we had to deal with you're like, try this, all right.
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And I would try it, and guess what?
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It would work, John.
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Like it always worked, and so that's kind of where it started.
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But he was a big numbers guy, right?
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If you don't have numbers or results, the box doesn't exist, right?
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Like, and you need the numbers because the numbers help shape what you do and how you do it.
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And so that's kind of where I really started kind of, and I'm I'm kind of a numbers guy anyhow.
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And so I started tracking it and being able to see trending and being able to see the areas.
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And if you had a section, like for instance, Mason neck is a perfect example.
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We had a section where we had really like our hit rate on a certain number of boxes was 100%.
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And I'm sitting there kind of going, well, the logical thing to do next is to add more boxes.
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So guess what?
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We added more boxes, and guess what?
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They all produced, and so you kind of let the numbers shape where you go, what you do, which boxes you pull, which boxes you, you know, like you add more to, like all of this stuff, like trust the numbers.
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And so a lot of that I learned from Cliff.
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Okay.
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So I'll I'll just back up a little bit.
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So we get a lot of listeners from around the actually, I should say around the world as well, surprisingly.
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So Masonnec is a peninsula that sits into Potomac River just south of DC on the Virginia side.
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Uh south of Fort Belvoir.
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Yeah.
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The Ocaquan runs into the Potomac.
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There's an area just south of the park called Belmont Bay, and you got to see it, which you got to admit was pretty cool, where we've got we get to go where nobody else gets to go, right?
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We've got combinations to gates and we get to drive and go check this place out and and see what it has.
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And it's fantastic, right?
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The habitat's great.
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And we've been doing that program since 2006, is when we started it.
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And so I want to say I've been running it since oh 2011, 2012-ish, kind of give or give or take.
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And I'm the one who we used to have like 38 boxes, and I went in there and I was like, we have too many boxes that aren't producing.
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Let's pull them.
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Like, let's, you know, and and I learned you give a box three years.
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Okay.
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If it doesn't work, that means that there's something that the birds don't like, it's in the wrong location, whatever it may be.
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Just don't try to figure it out because you never will.
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Pull the box and relocate it.
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So we went down from like, I think we were at 38 boxes, and I think we went down to like 23.
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Okay.
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And then we've built up since then.
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And I think we're at, I can't I've got to do the count on it.
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I know we you and I and and John and Todd, we had checked 10 this past weekend.
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I think I've got 20 or 21 to check on Saturday.
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So I think we're at about 30-ish.
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So call it 30.
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So yeah.
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Okay.
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That's an interesting thing, too, is one is you give it three years to produce and see results.
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So something I was I wanted to ask you too is like I know and talking to biologists, especially when it comes to nesting.
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I mean, all birds are are different, all waterfowl are different.
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When you have smaller ponds in the prairie pothole region, for instance, mallards won't set up on a big body of water if there's somebody else already nesting there, if there's another mallard brood already already there.
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So that's why you like smaller, more numerous potholes for for them, for instance.
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Well, for wood ducks, for the one impoundment, the the DU impoundment there, and Mason Eck, we had what four bottles.
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And that does that doesn't bother wood ducks.
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Well, you know, uh, so Sean, that's a really good question.
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And I would answer it with we started with three.
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Okay.
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Right?
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Just because they produce, and I was like, you know, let's let's try let's experiment.
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Like a a big part of this is experimenting, right?
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The problem with experimenting when it comes to wood ducks is that it takes you a few years to figure out if the experiment worked, which can be frustrating, right?
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So when we went with you, we had five boxes in that impoundment, right?
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And we had started originally with three, and so we had expanded to five.
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And I told you, you know, although I was a little bit disappointed this year because last year all five got used.
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Okay.
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Right.
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And so, you know, I was even thinking about adding a sixth.
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I'm glad I didn't, obviously at this stage, given, I mean, I don't remember if we had if two out of the five or three out of the five were used, right?
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But it wasn't as good as it was last year.
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So I guess a long-winded answer to your question is you can typically, I think the guidance is don't put them in within 25 feet of each other.
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I I try and do 25 yards.
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Okay.
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And what I typically try and do is if I have the hole opened up, I try not to have them across from each other across a body of water, right?
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So they're facing each other.
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I will turn one to the right and I'll turn the other one to the left or whatever it ends up being, because one of the things we've discovered, and at least from some of the research that I've done, is that the hens can get very territorial and they can get stressed.
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And when they get stressed, they're not focusing on laying eggs and nesting, they're focused on basically holding their territory.
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But that said, like you saw, those five are pretty tight, they're pretty close to each other.
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They're pointed in different directions so that the hens aren't staring at each other and kind of getting mad about it.
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But yeah, no, we've had good success there.
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Although I think part of the takeaway from this year is that that's probably as saturated as I want to make that.
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I don't want to add any more because I think I'd just add more stress to the hens.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, no, that that makes complete sense on the stress scene and a little bit of territorialness.
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So and also so another question too, I and you had mentioned it on Sunday, was maybe you could explain a little bit about the nesting process for wood ducks.
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Sure.
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I know I'll share some photos if folks haven't seen them before, the jump days, which are just really cool uh when a photographer captures those.
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Yeah, and you can find if you go online, you can find some videos of it on YouTube that are just they're really cool.
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And you know, and and the crazy thing about it, in all the years I've been doing it, I've never seen a jump day.
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All right, but that's also my takeaway from that is is that it's because I got my job done in February and I'll let nature do its thing, right?
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All right, so typically hens, I think it's like a I'm pretty certain it's like a 28 to 32 day gestation period.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:23.600
And what a hen will do, and when we you remember when we we went to the first box and I was talking to your son and talking to Alex, and I said, you know, what do we do when we show up at somebody's house?
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:26.240
We walk right in, they said, No, you know, you ring the doorbell.
00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:27.840
I go, what if there's no doorbell?
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:28.960
And they said, Well, you knock on the door.
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.639
And I said, All right, we're gonna knock on the box.
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.519
So you saw me knock it on the box, nothing happens.
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:38.240
I start opening the door, and that hen goes flying out the hole, right?
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.639
And you know, we look inside and there's two eggs.
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:45.360
And so what a hen will do is they will lay an egg a day, right?
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:50.559
They will not sit on the eggs until they have finished laying their last egg.
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:56.159
That way, when they sit, and what a hen will do is they will fan out their tails.
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:09.920
That's why, you know, and I I mentioned you we were talking about dimensions, and part of the challenges of like it can be really hard finding 10-inch wide cedar pose because a lot of it you can find eight inch, but 10 by 8's a little bit tight.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:22.960
I try to go for 10 by 10, you know, like nominal, it's like nine and a quarter, and you know, whatever the math may be, but it allows the hen to be able to sit, fan or tail out, and be able to sit on all the eggs, right?
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:28.160
And the idea being that when they hatch, they all hatch on the same day, right?
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:33.920
And typically when they hatch, the jump day is typically the next day.
00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.759
And so when she's sitting on the eggs, she's cooing to them, right?
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.119
She's letting them know.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:43.759
And then when she's inside, you know, like when they've hatched, she's cooing to them so they know who she is, right?
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:50.160
And so on jump day, she'll come out of the nest, jump to the bottom, and she's just starts talking to them, right?
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:51.519
And they want to be with mom.
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.039
And so they start climbing up the ladder and they make the jump.
00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:58.240
And so typically, you can look it up online.
00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:03.440
I think the clutch size is usually eight to fourteen, eight to sixteen.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:23.680
When we estimate, we usually use 10, just so we we're not overstating, you know, or overestimating how many eggs could have hatched, but it's usually like a first-year hen might lay fewer, but it's usually kind of in that the 10 egg estimate is pretty safe.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:25.200
That it's gonna be somewhere in that.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:29.200
Now, granted, you can count them, like it's not an exact science, Sean.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.039
You know, I showed you some of the eggs, some of the membranes.
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:39.039
You try to go back through all the egg frag or fragmentation, like you're trying to figure out how many eggs, like good luck with that.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:39.519
I don't know.
00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.240
Like, and so we we kind of make a safe estimate.
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:47.839
We try not to overstate, but we're kind of in that vicinity, assuming it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 10, right?
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.359
That's typically what we do.
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:50.000
Okay.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:50.480
Yeah.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.640
And so I and I'll back up a little bit again.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.359
We were talking about the ladder inside the box.
00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:15.839
So I think most folks that can recognize what a wood duck box is, but on the what you don't see is on the inside is is you have the next to material cedar shavings, wood shavings that are in there, and then you have usually like a fine wire mesh stapled or drilled on the inside of the wall right below the door, right inside the door.
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:16.240
Right.
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:22.480
That way, you know, the chicks can crawl up with their toes, up it a little bit, and then jump out.
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:27.359
It's usually probably what, maybe five, six inches of ladder that maybe have to use.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:32.960
Well, we we usually we run it from just at the bottom of the hole.
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:47.440
And so what I'll usually do is if you take a you know, like a carpenter's pencil and you kind of or a pen or you kind of bend it at the very top, you staple it on the inside, you can run it down to the full length, you throw in the nesting material.
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:53.119
You'll also, if you buy boxes, you'll find a lot of times they'll come, they'll be scored, right?
00:19:53.200 --> 00:20:03.519
Like where they've got something for because they've got really strong, you know, they come with toenails and they've got strong feet, and they they use that to you know be able to climb and get up the ladder.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:04.240
So yeah.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:04.880
Okay.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:05.359
Right.
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:11.599
And well, and and talk a little bit more about the layout of of the boxes, but not directly tied to it is as predator guards.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:12.480
Absolutely.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.960
And and and how much those are needed.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:23.759
So you mentioned before is like one, if you don't have numbers for a box, it's like not having a box before, but you and if you're not checking it, it's like not having a box.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:24.240
Right.
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:26.480
The same thing with predator guards as well.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:27.039
Yeah.
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:27.519
All right.
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:29.920
So I'll explain it in a couple of different ways.
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:40.960
One is if you have a box, you don't have a predator guard, and you open that box up and you can see the down from where a hen had nested, but there's zero eggs, right?
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.039
There's no eggs, there's no egg fragmentation, there's no membranes, there's nothing.
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.519
I guarantee you it's snake predation, right?
00:20:47.680 --> 00:21:07.279
And so what snakes will do, whether they drop down from, and we could talk about site location and kind of where I like to put boxes and how I do it later, but if you find a box that's got down inside it but no eggs, chances are either a snake crawled up or it dropped down on top.
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:14.079
And what they'll do is they'll move into the box for about a week and they will eat every single egg in the box.
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.880
And then when they're done, they'll crawl out, right?
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:24.000
And so I have never put a box up that didn't have a predator guard on it, and I never will put up a box that doesn't have a predator guard on it, right?
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:25.200
Like it's gotta have a guard.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:29.839
If it doesn't have a guard, it's a buffet line for predators, right?
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.640
And so that's the way I've always looked at it.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:34.079
Is it more expensive?
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:35.119
It is, right?
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:41.519
Like it's an additional cost, but at the same time, I mean, do you want to have a successful box or not?
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:43.599
That's kind of the way I I pitch it.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:44.640
Exactly.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:45.279
Yeah.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:52.559
So when we initially thought about predator guards, and you read about it in different articles and stuff like that, and the framework of putting them up.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.160
Honestly, I personally I would not have thought about snake predation.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.119
I'm also from the temperate Lyme Valley of Orange.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.200
Not a big yes, we have snakes, but not like you have here.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.920
So I would have thought raccoons or or something else getting in to predate the eggs.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.640
So you remember when we were going through the checklist for the paperwork, right?
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:21.759
When Alex was my scribe and you know checking stuff off, one of the things that we always look at is we look at the post below the guard.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.519
And if you see a lot of scratches on that post, chances are it's a raccoon.
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:25.839
Right.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:39.680
A raccoon that's trying to get up and scale and they they can't get around the guard, but you can typically tell that you know a raccoon has been trying or found it or smelled them or whatever it is is trying to get up in there, right?
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:42.000
And that's one of the telltale signs.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:46.640
I've talked to other people that had done this long before I got involved in it.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:23:01.680
And they used to talk about the fact that if they ran their nails on the back of the box and that hen goes bursting out the hole, they know that it's you know, a raccoon is because the hole isn't big enough for the raccoon to crawl in, unless it's like a juvenile, right?
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:06.400
They can reach in, you know, they can try to do whatever, but eventually they give up, right?
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:11.759
But the point is that that's a telltale sign that you've got you're dealing with raccoons.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:17.279
But my biggest fear is always snakes because the guards keep the raccoons out of it, right?
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:38.000
What I usually do when I'm doing a site location, a site visit, is we try to find areas and I make certain that there are no limbs that are overhanging or within at least 20 to 25 feet above the box because you won't believe how aggressive the snakes can be.
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:38.240
Right?
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:43.200
Like they will climb up a tree, they will go out on a limb, and they will drop right down on the top of the box.
00:23:43.440 --> 00:24:04.640
You know, and I think I'd shared with you on Sunday that years ago on one of the sections at Mason Neck, we had found there was a little bit of a gap in the guard, and a snake had stuck its head through and couldn't get its head out, and we come out there, and there's like this hanging half of a snake that got eaten by something else just hanging there because it got stuck and couldn't escape.
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.000
Which, you know, and and I'm not that I hate snakes, but it made me feel good.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:08.559
So yeah.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:10.240
Yep, exactly.
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:17.519
Snakes have their point in the in the life cycle, but uh yeah, I'm not uh me and Indiana Jones have that in common.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:18.160
There you go.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:18.880
I'll give you that.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:19.279
Yeah.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:24.799
So you you talked about site visits, and we're gonna keep nerding out here before I got a more fun question for you.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:32.240
But you're talking about site selection, you had mentioned a stat as far as like how far away a box can be from the water.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.079
But in general, what are you looking for?
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.519
One, the limbs, but two, is does it have to be in the water?
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:46.400
Can it be on the shoreline, or if you're looking at a bigger freshwater impoundment, can it be 15 yards into the pond, if it's a shallow pond, or how does that process work?
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:48.720
All right, well, uh Sean, that's a really good question.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:25:00.720
And I would respond with so typically when I think about starting a new project, I think of it in a seven to ten box project range, right?
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:11.039
Because it's gonna take you a bit to get them installed, drive the posts, do whatever, but you can knock out check-in boxes, seven to ten boxes in a couple of hours in the morning.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:11.440
Right.
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:17.920
The idea being that you kind of break it up into those chunks, if you will, because you can get a group together.
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:31.839
It's easier to, if there's a way to co-locate them so they're kind of all in the same vicinity, it's gonna help you because one of the biggest problems, and we've seen it, and I've seen it over the years, is that if the box is hard to get to, guess what's gonna happen?
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:35.359
It's not gonna get checked because it's a pain to get to, right?
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:39.519
So make them as accessible as you possibly can.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:57.599
Now, if you go like, say for instance, we did a project at South County High School in Lorton last spring, and they had like a drainage pond at the bottom of the high school, and it was kind of a steep slope as it went into the water.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:01.119
Like for me, I would, you know, like I made the decision then.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:02.559
I go, we're not gonna put it in the water.
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.680
We're gonna put it right on the shoreline, we're gonna put it right on the edge.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.960
Because one, it's easier to check.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:16.319
Two, the majority, like if we're gonna hand it off to the environmental club or the ecology club at a high school, they're not gonna have waders.
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:18.960
They probably won't even have like knee highs, right?
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:25.119
Like, make it easy for them to maintain it so that they always like there's no excuse for them not to come back and maintain it.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.359
So that's the way I typically look at it.
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:44.880
Now, it's not to say that if it is like a shallow slough or pond or whatever it is, a lot of it depends on how big it is, how many boxes you can get on it, figuring out a way so that the holes aren't aiming across the pond to the other one, you know, like being able to kind of situate them.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:46.079
But yeah, I don't know.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:51.759
I mean, there's no, you know, and I think I'd share with you, and and I know you had asked me one of those questions earlier.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:27:12.640
I mean, I think the research, they've got proof that, you know, a hen will find a cavity in a tree, they'll do the jump day, and it could be a quarter of a mile away from water and they'll make the trip, which is asking a lot, which kind of ties into, you know, we can talk about this in terms of the general drought conditions we've been dealing with over the last few years.
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:24.400
You try to make it as simple as you can, you try to give them the best chance that you can, get them as close to water, good habitat, places with cover, places where they can find food and not get picked off.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:24.880
Right.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:31.119
And so if there's a way to do it where the hen is sitting on the water calling to them and they're jumping into the water, perfect.
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:35.359
If it's five to eight to ten feet from the edge of the water, guess what?
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:37.759
They're gonna survive because they're little fluff balls.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:42.559
Like they're gonna hit the ground and bounce, and they're gonna find their way to mom, and they're gonna find their way to the water.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:43.119
Okay.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:43.920
That's great.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:49.839
So so on the on the funner side, and you check in boxes, you you're knocking on the door before for opening up.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.559
What was the one of the funniest things that you've seen or interesting things you've seen checking a box?
00:27:54.799 --> 00:28:00.559
There's a bit of a long list on this one, but I will start with this was at Mason Neck, and I don't know how many years ago.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:02.960
This might have been 10 years ago, maybe a little bit more.
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:12.160
We open up the box, and there's a baby screech owl, which and like screech owls, adult screech owls aren't very tall.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.480
You can imagine what a baby screech owl looks like.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.960
And I didn't know this because I don't know that much about owls.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.599
I didn't know owls fell asleep standing up, like they're standing when they sleep, right?
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:28.319
And so this baby screech owl is asleep in the corner of the box, facing the corner of the box.
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:34.000
And I'm sitting here kind of going, well, you know, I gotta check the box, I gotta see what what we got in here.
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.279
So I grabbed this baby screech owl, right?
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.640
And still asleep.
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:47.119
And so I hand the baby screech owl, and I've got six or seven, eight kids, and they hand this, and I said, be gentle, right?
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:52.319
They hand this little baby screech owl all the way around this circle, and it comes back to me.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:29:02.799
And I get this baby screech owl, and the outlet wakes up and opens its eyes, it's looking at me, and then it closes its eyes and it goes back to sleep.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:04.720
And so I just stuck it back in the box.
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:06.160
That was a wild one.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:09.599
We've had adult screech owls that we've come across.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:15.680
Usually we don't find any snakes just because I do a good job of site selection and having predator guards.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:25.119
We had at Huntley Meadows Park last year, there was the beavers had got had knocked a tree down and it had leaned up against a guard.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.279
And I opened up the door and there's a there's a sleeping raccoon inside the box.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:30.640
So I shut that.
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:36.400
And I'm curious to go back because I'll be checking that box this coming Sunday, and just to get a feel.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:42.880
One, if if there's a raccoon that got so fat from eating a hen and all the eggs that couldn't get out, I would imagine they probably got out.
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:46.799
But is there a hen skeleton inside there, or did they escape?
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:48.720
I'm hopeful they did, but I don't know.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.039
So I've had a raccoon.
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:58.000
We had a couple of weekends ago down at Caledon State Park in King George, Virginia.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:02.960
We opened up a box and there were three flying baby squirrels.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:05.599
And you might ask, well, how do you know they were flying squirrels?
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:13.759
And we saw, you know, as we're checking on the box, we watched the mama jump out and glide 20 feet to the ground, which was really cool to watch.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:25.759
And so we had to move the box, and of course, we didn't want to evict the squirrels, so we we drilled it up on a tree, and I told the Virginia master naturalist that I was training that weekend to say, all right, look, here's the deal.
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:32.640
They're rodents, they grow pretty quickly, come back in a couple of weeks, relocate the box, but let's let them get done with their job.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:39.279
Other than that, I'm trying to think squirrels, owls, owlets, raccoons.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:44.160
I think that kind of sums up the I mean, I haven't had anything crazier than those.
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:44.880
Okay.
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:51.680
And I asked John, he was flying back home from a trip, and so I text him and say, Hey, I'm talking to Matt for the podcast.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:56.240
Is there anything that that you thought of that you wanted to ask him and you didn't think of on Sunday?
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:03.680
And so he he sent a couple questions over, but one of them was had you ever seen somebody put like you know, you have like the eagle nest cams.
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.200
Has somebody ever tried doing that with a wood duck box?
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.720
Putting like a little wireless camera, like up maybe in the roof.
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.799
All right, it's funny, Sean, that you asked that.
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:14.480
All right, so I got these cameras.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:22.240
DU gave me some cameras, and I I've been trying to figure out a way to get them installed.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.079
I've had them in the basement, and I haven't I've never gotten around to doing it.
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:38.319
I actually think that getting one of those fisheye ones or the ones you can put on the inside of the box at the top, so you could be able to actually see the hen and see the activity inside, I think would be better.
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:40.640
So we've thought about it.
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:49.039
I've just been perhaps that's on me not to have explored it a little bit more, but do I think it'd be fun and it'd be great to do?
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:49.680
Absolutely.
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:52.559
And be able to have the video and be able to show, like, here's what we do.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:59.279
Yeah, no, it's something that is kind of on my list of possibly exploring a little bit more.
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:05.119
Of course, given how disorganized I am and all the other stuff going on in my life, I just didn't get around to it.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.200
But it's one of those things that's kind of on the list.
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:09.920
So maybe next, you know, tell John hopefully next year.
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:10.400
How about that?
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:11.519
Okay, I'll let him know that.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:12.960
We'll and we'll we'll hold you on it too.
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:14.480
We'll we'll try to help out if we can on that.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:21.680
I guess if you show up, yeah, if you guys come back again, which I hope you do, you know, you might be like, hey Matt, whatever the hell, whatever happened to those cameras.
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:22.079
Yeah.
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:22.960
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:27.039
And honestly, on the roof thing, again on a tangent, that'd be a good idea.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:32.640
Cause then you could, I mean, with the way trail cams are these days, you could put the little solar panel up there.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:33.759
Yeah, it's charging.
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:35.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.640
Well, cool.
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:43.039
So you're not making me feel better, Sean, because I haven't done it yet, but I appreciate your I'm just trying to help think outside the box.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:43.359
Okay.
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:45.119
Very, very well played.
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:45.680
Well played.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:46.000
Yeah.
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:46.400
Okay.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.240
Well, well, speaking of that, and we talked a little bit about on Sunday and texted about it.
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.839
I know Cedar's usually kind of the gold standard when it comes to making the nasty boxes.
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.440
And as you mentioned, Cedar starts getting a bit pricey.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:01.839
Yeah.
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:12.000
Have you seen and we talked about one example which we can get into a little bit later that you learned from Cliff, but have you noticed the differences and success rate between box materials?
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:15.359
No, no, no, no, not at all.
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:16.480
That has nothing to do with it.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.799
So you got to think of it, you can make them out of plywood and it would work.
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:21.440
Right.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.079
The problem is it's not going to last very long, right?
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:38.160
And so, like I know the Maryland Wood Duck Initiative, they've got a connection with a mill down, I think in South Carolina, they get a lot of cypress, which I think it's cheaper than the cedar, although not much, obviously.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:46.799
But I think the problem you run into with the cypress, at least in my experience with it, has been the knots because it's hard to cut, it's hard to get it without splitting it, right?
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:47.119
Okay.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:34:04.000
I've developed kind of a network of other wood duck crazy people like myself, and one of them is a gentleman named Matt Kinecy, who lives up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and he is the Delta waterfowl nesting lead for the Northeast.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:12.480
And he was telling me that, you know, of course, he lives in Amish country, he can't throw a stone without hitting an Amish mill, right?
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:18.159
And so what he's been doing is been buying pine because it's the cheapest, and then burning it.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.360
Shishogi bond or shishogibon, I think is the term.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:25.119
Burning it and then being able to use it that way.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:34.800
And so that's something that we kind of experimented a little bit with, didn't really get it going enough to be able to kind of have some, you know, we we had some kind of working models.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:43.199
I don't think they're quite going to be ready for this year just because we didn't have any real new projects to be able to use them at or use them on.
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:48.880
But that's something we would consider doing because cedar is it has become prohibitively expensive.
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:53.280
And although it is the choice, but I think there's other ways to do it as well.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:04.000
So I I I you know, like my guidance and and for any of those that you know, like your listeners that are interested in doing it, I would tell them don't worry if you can't find cedar because it's expensive, right?
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.639
Like there's other wood choices that you could use.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.519
You could even do, I mean, you can do you could do plywood.
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.039
I mean, you just gotta know that it's not gonna last very long and you're gonna have to go back and replace it.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.400
But they'll all work.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:15.760
So yeah.
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:16.400
Okay.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:22.400
Well, and uh sub point of that is what is your preferred nesting material in the box?
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.559
Cedar chips or cedar shavings, yeah.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:25.440
Cedar shavings.
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:27.199
Yeah, as long as it's not sawdust.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:28.800
Okay, like it can't be sawdust.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:32.960
Because if it's sawdust, you know, like when the chicks are born, they're wet, right?
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:34.880
And you just can't have stuff sticking to them.
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:47.039
And yeah, so you can go and you can buy a huge brick, I mean brick, it's more like the size of a hay bale, right, of cedar at Pet Smart or whatever it ends up being.
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:51.199
And it's not gonna cost that much, and honestly, it'll last you years.
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:58.320
And you saw how much we had added into the 10 boxes that you and I and John had checked this weekend.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:59.280
I mean, what do we do?
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:05.679
Like we might have gone through three, two and a half of the plastic bags that you know, like the 7-Eleven bags.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:08.400
I mean, you know, you've got it and it'll last for years, yeah.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:09.840
Okay, great.
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.679
Another question John had, and I was I was thinking about how you could do it.
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:29.199
And I think the only way you could potentially know is just via banding and monitoring, but is there anything been quartered or or tracked somehow of that a hen will go back to the same box year after year or kind of go to the same rough area?
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:35.760
So if a hen is successful at that box and they don't get killed during the following hunting season, they will go back to the same box.
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:36.239
Okay.
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:43.280
And the great thing about is that the ducklings that she births will be imprinted, they'll come back to the same section.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:54.400
And that kind of ties into when you have an area that that has successful nesting boxes, and you add more boxes to that area.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:06.800
My guess is, and of course, I don't have any scientific research to back this up, but my guess would be I wouldn't be surprised if it's part of her ducklings finding going back to that same area and finding a nest.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:10.159
But typically, yeah, a ham will go back to the same nest.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:10.800
Okay.
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:11.360
Yeah.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:11.840
Cool.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:18.159
Yeah, I wasn't exactly sure because I know mallars are kind of good, they're roughly the same area, the same pond, the same, you know, pothole area.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:23.760
And I wasn't sure if if wood ducks would go to the same exact nest or if they kind of go to the same region.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:31.599
Yeah, my understanding, at least from what I've heard and what I've read, what I've researched, is they'll go back to the same exact box if they were successful before.
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:32.239
Okay.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:32.960
Right.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:44.960
And which, you know, I think I mentioned it to you previously, but typically the national average on wood duck box success is about two and three.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:49.119
So it's about a 66% use rate, right?
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:54.960
And typically the nesting success is pretty high, it's like 80%, right?
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:08.320
And we had talked about as I done some malar nesting cones and kind of supported some of those at Huntley Meadows and also at Fort Belvoir, the use rate on those is like it's national average, it's one in three, right?
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:20.079
And I had mentioned to you that there has been absolutely not one confirmation that a black duck has ever used a malar nesting cone, which I find bizarre, but they won't use them.
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:33.840
But so, you know, like if you're gonna get into nesting programs, wood duck boxes have a much higher return and might be the one, if it's something that you want to get into, it would be a good one, a good place to start, would be my guidance.
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:38.159
Yeah, and to that point, too, like wood ducks aren't the only cavity nesters either.
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.880
Like hooded mergangers would use as well.
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:41.760
Yeah, yep.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:47.119
And so hooded McGangers typically are about two weeks before woodies get there.
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:57.599
Okay, and you can usually tell that when I was showing you some of the unhatched eggs that we had found when we did the check, so you could tell the difference between the eggs.
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:05.199
So a wood duck egg is a little bit rounder, it's more of a pale tan color to it.
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:14.000
The McGanser eggs about the same size, but more oval, and there's kind of a bluish hue to them.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:15.760
And so that's kind of the way you can tell.
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:20.239
But they're cavity nesters just like wood ducks are, and I mean, if they get there first, guess what?
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:23.599
They're probably gonna keep the nest and the wood duck's gonna go have to find something else.
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:24.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:28.159
So on that timing, we are we were talking about this before I hit the cord.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.840
We're just before mid-March right now, just before the hides of March.
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:33.440
How does this timeline work?
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:42.559
So if somebody's looking to put nesting boxes out on their property or get involved in projects with DU or or Delta, what time of year is that typically done?
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:52.239
Okay, so I usually shoot to end everything, all my nesting activities or wood duck box checks or installs or whatever it might be by the middle of March.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.320
So I'm coming up on it this weekend.
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:57.440
It's not to say that you can't go a little bit later.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:02.480
All right, you could go to the third week and fourth week getting on to April, but they're here.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.039
I mean, we know they're here because we knocked on the first box and there was a hadn't already sent them one, right?
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:08.000
Like they are here.
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:12.559
Yeah, so like my guidance would be shoot for the middle of March.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:24.880
I would say shoot for February, because sometimes, particularly when we have bigger programs that have a lot of boxes, and if it's cold, it's a lot easier getting around on the ice to check them.
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.840
It like cuts the time in half if it's really mucky.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:34.239
But I would say, regardless of it, if you're really interested in doing it, just do it.
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:35.599
Just get it out there.
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:45.039
Because the first year, and I always try to tell people, and people ask me all the time, the first year is such like I don't know if I want to say it's like 50-50.
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:47.840
Like, like I did a program, I did a box check.
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:53.679
We did a project at Widewater State Park East, you know, in Stafford, Virginia.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:55.840
We did a project last February.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.519
I went down there to check.
00:40:57.760 --> 00:40:59.599
The habitat is fantastic.
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.960
The boxes are perfect, they're in great locations.
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:05.440
We checked seven boxes, not one of them got used.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.159
Right.
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.280
And I said to him, I go, look, I go, it's kind of one of these things.
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:11.679
First year boxes, that's why I give them three years, right?
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:16.400
First year boxes is a real, just kind of it's a roll of dice.
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:17.119
You just don't know.
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:19.840
Either all of them get used or none of them get used.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.840
And I said, you know, don't give up hope.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000
Let's see what it looks like next year, right?
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:27.440
So I would tell people that are interested in doing it, it's not too late.
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.000
Even if you put it in in June, right?
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:34.000
Just realize you're not gonna get any nesting, but you got it in, right?
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:41.760
And it may take you another cycle to kind of get a feel for whether it produces or not, but by all means, like more boxes is always good.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:42.239
Cool.
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:43.920
No, I I appreciate that, Matt.
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:49.039
There's something else I was gonna ask in that regard, but so you're doing work with government agencies.
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:59.360
Is everybody kind of been copacetic and and on the same path working with because as just Mason Neck, for an example, you have a state park there, you have a wildlife refuge there.
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:19.199
Somebody's gonna work through their chapter, the local chapter, on on the you know, so when we had pitched the idea originally to the state and to the feds, so the biggest issue, and I think I shared this with you last weekend, is I can put a wood duck box in every day, any day, but I can't necessarily get somebody to come back and maintain it and check it.
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:19.760
Right.
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:26.960
So part of our pitch to the National Wildlife Refuge side of the park, which it's roughly about half and half, right?
00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:33.360
And the state side was that we wanted to put boxes in and we promised to maintain and check them if you gave us access.
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:33.840
Right.
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:38.400
And so we have a great partnership with them, particularly on the federal side.
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:43.519
There's a gentleman named Chris Wicker who's kind of been my main contact I deal with over the years.
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:45.679
He always wants to know, like, how do we do?
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:46.800
How are our numbers?
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:47.920
You know, that kind of thing.
00:42:48.079 --> 00:43:02.000
And we share with him, you know, like last year, for instance, and if you remember, I think I can't remember when we had the big windstorm, but we had some windy conditions, and one of our boxes got obliterated by a massive tree that got blown down.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:05.920
And of course, you know, I shared that with Chris, and he's like, Can you tell me exactly where it is?
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.239
And I was like, Yeah, I can show you on the map where it is, right?
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:13.760
So, and that was the one, if you remember, we were driving out on Anchorage Road, and I'm kind of pointing out the window.
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:16.239
That was the one that got crushed by that massive tree, right?
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:31.920
We've developed a great relationship, great working relationship, and it's been really good in the sense that I think that's part of what the parks are about in terms of building that community, particularly nature-minded, whether it's birders or whomever it may be.
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:34.480
I mean, they've been absolutely wonderful to work with.
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:51.440
And my experiences with having worked with Caledon State Park, having worked with Widewater, with Huntley Meadows, which is Fairfax County, with other, like they are very, you know, whether it's biologists or the land managers or whomever it is, they love it because one, it's part of what they do.
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:53.840
They've got these great parks with great habitat.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.400
They want people coming out and asking questions.
00:43:56.559 --> 00:44:01.199
Some of the parks have really active friends of Park organizations.
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:07.519
More recently, I've had great success with Virginia Master Naturalists being able to maintain programs.
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:12.559
Like they maintain the program at Calaman State Park, they maintain the program at Widewater.
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:25.519
And being able to have like my biggest fear, worry every time is after we do this project, who's going to be three years, five years, seven, ten years from now, who's going to be maintaining these boxes and reporting back to me with results?
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:28.239
That's my number one concern every time I do a new project.
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:28.719
Yeah.
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.360
Ironically enough, you spoke of Friends of Parks.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.880
That's just uh that's who I work with in my day job being there.
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:35.519
There you go.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:36.480
Your relationship.
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:37.280
Yeah.
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:39.599
And there's a like take Huntley Meadows, for instance.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:46.960
And and not that I'm trying to pile on and complain about the Huntley Meadows Friends of the Park, but they check the boxes, they check them every week.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:54.719
And I'm just like, look, I go if you know, like I like trying to get them to slow the roll and be like, if you know they're being used, don't stress the hen.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:57.679
Stop checking on counting the eggs, just let them be.
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:03.519
You know, like you can figure out when that kind of get an idea of when your jump day may be or do whatever, but just leave them alone.
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:04.320
But whatever.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:05.760
I mean, I'm not gonna fault them for it.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:07.360
I'm not gonna get in a fight with them, you know.
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.239
Like they they clearly are very enthused.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:15.840
And for instance, there's 22 wood duck boxes at Huntley Meadows.
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:25.280
The Pentagon chapter paid for, and this is kind of an interesting story, which may tie into others interested in installing their own boxes.
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:28.400
And so there was a gentleman named Dave Lawler.
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:30.800
Some of your listeners may have met him or known him.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:33.199
He said, you know, he was he was a duck hunter from La Plata.
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:35.119
I think he's originally from Northern Virginia.
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:43.039
And we have known him for years and supported, they've got eight mallard nesting cones and they've got 22 wood duck boxes.
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:47.679
You know, and you've seen that great boardwalk that they've got that goes through the marsh and doing whatever.
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:54.800
And so I'm talking with Dave, and he said to me, He's like, Matt, he goes, We're like, we're not getting great production, like we're getting really bad numbers.
00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:57.920
And of course, my first question is, Well, you got guards on?
00:45:58.000 --> 00:45:58.559
And he said, Yeah.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:45:59.840
I go, What kind of guards do you have on?
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:01.199
He goes, We have the tubular ones.
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:02.000
I go, that's why.
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:03.280
I go, how many do you need?
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:04.239
He goes, 22.
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:05.519
I said, All right, let me work on it.
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:08.480
And so our chapter got him 22 guards.
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:09.519
And guess what happened?
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.039
They removed the cylinder guards, they put the other predator guards, and the production rate went through the roof, right?
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:24.639
Like, you know, that's kind of the partnership that we have with them because we're all about producing ducks and getting more ducks on on the water.
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:26.480
And this is kind of how we do it.
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:30.639
And like I've always really, really enjoyed that relationship.
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:43.679
I think it's kind of that and Mason Neck are kind of the two events every year I look the most forward to because one, we have the most kids out for them, and two, they always produce, and it's just fun.
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:44.480
So yeah.
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:44.960
Definitely.
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:48.960
Well, Matt, I couldn't think of a better summary than that you just put right there.
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:50.880
But then also working with your local chapters.
00:46:50.960 --> 00:47:00.800
I mean, that's a good way to, you know, you're keeping, you know, obviously to use a big national organization, but it's also a good way to kind of give back to your local immediate area as well.
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:08.000
Like you know, the the wood ducks and and the nesting habitat you're working on benefits your direct flyaway, your direct absolutely.
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:16.000
And not just not just for hunting, but for the biology and and all the other groups that are interested in it, and the bird watchers, like we're all we're all kind of in it together.
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:17.039
Yeah, well, all right.
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:19.119
So so Sean, let me phrase it this way, right?
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:27.679
Like, I think when we get the numbers back from Mason Neck, we'll be pretty close to 2,000 ducklings we've produced since we started the program.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:34.800
Like, I'd love to tell you that me and the other members of the Pentagon chapter have killed 2,000 wood ducks over the years, right?
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:35.599
We haven't, right?
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:38.639
So my my point being that we give a lot more back than we take.
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:39.199
Exactly.
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:50.000
But we also respect the resource and we also make certain that we're doing everything we can to make certain that there is longevity and they're still around, right?
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:51.760
And so that's a big part of it.
00:47:51.920 --> 00:48:13.920
But even like regardless of that, like just the fact that the friendships that we've developed with the Friends of the Park groups, or with Fairfax County Park Authority, or with the state parks, or with the National Wildlife Refuge, like all of these, you know, the biologists and everyone that is involved with this is all looking at the same goal, right?
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:21.920
And I don't want to get into, you know, like I've I've given a lot of money to Ducks Unlimited over the years, but I always make certain that it stays in Virginia, right?
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:30.800
Like I don't want to go into Memphis, not that I have anything against DU headquarters, but I don't want my money going to North Dakota and South Dakota or going to DU Canada.
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:42.320
I want my money staying in Virginia so that it it serves Virginia duck hunters by grassroots organization, you know, grassroots efforts to put more ducks in the air and on the water, right?
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:43.679
And that's kind of the way I look at it.
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:44.559
And I've always done that.
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:50.239
And I I've probably ticked some people off at Virginia DU enrichment over the years, and particularly, you know, whatever it may be.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:55.679
But, you know, I want my money to stay home to serve and produce ducks here.
00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:13.360
And I don't know that, and and for your listeners, I don't know that there is a better, more grassroots way to be part of the annual duck cycle than researching, experimenting, and kind of getting into wood duck boxes because it is awesome.
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:21.440
Like, and you've you've seen it when we pulled the shells out, you've seen your kids take a look at the membranes and be able to go, oh wow, you know, like and all this stuff that goes with it.
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:24.320
There's so much goodness involved with the experience.
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:35.519
You know, and I've told you over the years, we've had big groups of kids come out and we, you know, we haul them out in the muck and we put them on a ladder, they climb up there, and you watch their head explode when they reach into a box and they pull something out.
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:37.119
So it's awesome.
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:38.960
It's is it's so awesome.
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:41.199
So yeah, that's how I feel about it.
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:43.199
Well, no, I I appreciate that, Matt.
00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:50.000
And you know, we're getting close on time and and like I do with absolutely because I do what I told you, I told you I was gonna run late and you had to shut me off.
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:50.320
Right.
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:52.000
No, so no, this is perfect, Matt.
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:53.280
I I appreciate it, man.
00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:56.159
And I know we could do a couple of these just on wood ducks.
00:49:56.400 --> 00:50:02.800
Yeah, well, hey Sean, if I could, yeah, if you could share my email address with your listener group.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:12.400
And if there's anyone who is interested in learning more or might want box plans or even just wants to talk wood duck boxes, please share it because I've always got time.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:13.199
Yeah, certainly.
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:16.559
And I'll I'll put that contact information in in the show notes, Matt.
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:17.199
Perfect.
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:21.760
But and as always, there's always the things that I I've seen and read that I like I like to share.
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:23.760
And you're welcome to add to it as well, Matt.
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:35.199
But in addition to you know, the habitat work like nesting boxes and and cleaning up gear to put away this time of year, there's also a bunch of decoy collector shows and carver shows and events that are going on.
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:41.840
I know Long Island Decoy Collectors, which is one, a fantastic social media handle to follow just for the history.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.000
But they had a show, I think, last week.
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:47.360
There's one in Back Bay, Virginia coming up in another couple weeks.
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:47.840
Okay.
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:52.239
And then Luke Costello, decoy carver, a previous guest Christmas episode.
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:57.039
He shared there's one going on in Ohio in the coming weeks as well, which which I'll all should share out.
00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:03.199
And then there's always events going on at inhabited grace, uh, you know, a place synonymous with decoy carving.
00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:04.320
Sure, sure.
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:04.800
Yeah.
00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:14.000
And then the guys over at Standard Sportsman Podcasts have had some great episodes lately since the holidays, since season ended, you know, talking about habitat management.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:19.840
But they also had one with friend and photographer Lee Jose, that I highly recommend as a great listen.
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:24.000
And he talked about a lot of his trips over the years since he started back.
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:28.079
And Lee, if you're listening, don't know exactly you're back in the 70s.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:33.840
But his trips up to Canada, freelancing and hunting, and just how much that landscape has changed, you know, firsthand accounts.
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:34.880
And we're interested to see.
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:40.480
Sounds like maybe you got something to work there, Lee, uh, photography-wise, and be interested to see how that that comes about.
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:45.360
And then a little bit closer to home, and this one's more of home where I am now, but but home home.
00:51:45.440 --> 00:52:01.039
There was a fantastic article by, and I'm going to butcher Phil's last name, Phil Bourget, in the latest issue of Ducks Unlimited that highlighted a late season goose trip he took to Oregon, my old stopping grounds in the Wyoming Valley, in pursuit of true cackling geese.
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:08.719
Features two previous podcast guests as well and friends, DU biologist Kelly Warren, and photography by Mike Callion as well.
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:10.880
Some great images, of course, by Mike.
00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:16.239
And that's just a great read for anybody that wants to know a little bit more about cackling geese and and the West Coast.
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:18.800
But Matt, anything you'd like to share for final notes?
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:20.239
No, I think we covered him.
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.079
You don't need to encourage me to talk more.
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:24.559
So no, I think we've got a pretty good fill.
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:25.679
I think it's fantastic.
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:27.679
I would encourage everyone to give it a try.
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:37.679
And you know, if you want some help and save you some trouble, like please reach out and I'll be more than willing to share kind of how to do it and my experiences and to save you a lot of heartache.
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:38.239
Cool.
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:39.679
Well, I really appreciate it, Matt.
00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:40.480
Hopefully I see you.
00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:43.280
I'll try and make this weekend something work as well.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:47.199
But yeah, thanks for everything you do for wood ducks and ducks and for all that.
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:51.119
But yeah, hopefully be interested to see what the numbers look like after this work.
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.360
Well, Sean, I will share them with you when I've got them.
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:57.920
And I I appreciate the invitation, the opportunity to to talk about what we do and how we do it.
00:52:58.079 --> 00:52:59.039
So thank you very much.
00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:00.159
Thank you.