ABOUT THIS EPISODE
In this episode of the Her Resources Podcast, Linda welcomes Lily Zheng, FAIR strategist, consultant, and author of Fixing Fairness: 4 Tenets to Transform Diversity Backlash into Progress for All, for a timely conversation about what it really takes to build fairer workplaces.
Lily challenges the idea that good intentions are enough and explains why many DEI efforts fail when they focus on optics, one-time training, or individual self-reflection without changing the systems that shape workplace outcomes. Linda and Lily discuss the FAIR framework, how HR leaders can reduce discrimination through better processes, why “hiring the best candidate” requires examining the actual hiring system, and how leaders can communicate fairness as a win-win for everyone.
This conversation is practical, honest, and especially relevant for HR leaders navigating backlash, polarization, and the pressure to create meaningful change without performative fluff.
Show Notes Links
Lily Zheng’s website: https://www.lilyzheng.co/
The FAIR Framework: https://www.lilyzheng.co/fair-framework
Lily’s authorship and book links: https://www.lilyzheng.co/authorship
Fixing Fairness publisher page: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803298/fixing-fairness-by-lily-zheng/
Lily Zheng on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lilyzheng308/
“How FAIR Is Your Workplace?” diagnostic, shared by Lily: https://hbr.org/2025/01/what-comes-after-dei
Her Resources Podcast website: https://www.herresourcespodcast.com/
Her Resources Podcast on Podbean: https://herresourcespodcast.podbean.com/
Contact Her Resources: https://www.herresourcespodcast.com/contact
Sponsorship or guest inquiries: contact@herresourcespodcast.com
00:00 Welcome and episode introduction
02:31 Meet Lily Zheng
03:03 Lily’s journey from activism to organizational strategy
07:25 Why traditional DEI efforts often miss real impact
11:11 “Fear of Finding Out” and why measurement matters
14:25 DEI as marketing versus meaningful workplace change
16:18 What hiring discrimination data reveals
18:28 How centralized hiring can reduce discrimination
20:17 Why Lily wrote Fixing Fairness
22:17 The Cobra Effect and when good intentions backfire
27:51 Moving from blame and shame to shared solutions
30:21 The FAIR framework
31:35 Why systems matter more than self-help
36:38 “Hiring the best candidate” and the reality of hiring systems
41:18 Why fairness problems are solvable
45:29 Lily’s take on unconscious bias
49:44 DEI backlash and what remains when the language disappears
51:56 The FAIR tenet organizations struggle with most
53:39 Practical steps HR leaders can take today
55:55 The mindset shift leaders need around fairness
58:09 AI as a multiplier in workplace systems
1:02:01 Closing reflections
1:02:54 Where to connect with Lily
1:03:27 Wrap-up and listener CTA
