SAN HOLO - The Delicate Dance of Art & Business

WEBVTT
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we put a lot of weight on ourselves trying to up every day thinking create something beautiful day.
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and I realized, whoa, that's literally what I've been doing for the last 10 years.
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I wake up thinking I gotta make something of nothing.
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Pretty intense,
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What's up everybody?
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Welcome to the Headliner Mindset Podcast.
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This week's episode is one of my most favorite conversations that I've had in a while where we really go deep in exploring that interesting dance between being an artist and being a business owner, creating from your.
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Authentic self-expression while also still existing in the industry and in the business, and what can oftentimes really feel like a push and pull.
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So get ready for a really beautiful deep dive into that dance.
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This is SA Hollow.
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San welcome to the show, brother.
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So happy to have you here.
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Thank you for making the time.
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Thank you for having me.
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I'm excited to talk.
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Yeah, man.
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Um, you know, we were just talk,
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talk about.
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I have no idea either.
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So let's see where this thing goes.
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I, I'm an open book, just like you said.
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You are a, a moment ago.
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Uh, I would really love to just start with.
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The beginning of your story and and hear a little bit about your background, like how did you get into music in the first place?
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When did you start your musical journey?
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Yeah.
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Um, really early.
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I was, I think I was 12 years old, uh, picked up a guitar for the first time when I was, yeah, about, about 12 years old.
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And, uh, ever since that moment I was just like, obsessed with, with music and, uh, I always thought I would be a guitar player or.
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You know, playing in a band or something.
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Uh, but
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Yeah.
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the electronic music thing happened and, uh,
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Yeah.
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making beats and that kind of blew up.
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And now I'm selling holo.
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So, so how did it blow up?
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Right?
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I think that's everybody's question.
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Everyone wants to blow up.
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Uh, how did it blow up?
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I know that's a loaded question, but I'd love to unpack that with you.
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Like when was the first moment that you started seeing things really take off for you?
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2014 SoundCloud era.
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It was a, the SoundCloud was this exciting platform where people went to, to find new sound.
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It was, I think, not only new sounds but also new genres.
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People there were like putting music out that was kind of pushing all the boundaries.
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Yeah.
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and, I was really inspired by that.
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I was on there every day just like listening to new music, like stuff I've never heard before wanted to be part of that movement, you know?
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So I started making my own stuff.
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Um, trap music was really big at that time, like heavy trap trap beats.
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Um, and I started doing like some chords and kind of cute melodies over the, over it kind of as a joke, not, not a joke.
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It was, it was serious to me, but it was, uh, kind of like a little wink to the, to the heavier trap music.
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I want
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Yeah.
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throw some sparkles in there, you know.
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Yeah.
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I've always been like inspired by, by, uh, doing things a little bit different,
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Yeah.
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than what's expected.
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that I think, kind of resonated with people.
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And I, I did some remixes.
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I, I did, uh, the next episode remix for, Dr.
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Well, I said for Dr.
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Dre, but I honestly, I just ripped his vocals from, from, uh, a Google link.
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I just googled Dr.
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Dre next episode acapella.
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And I found this really low quality acapella, and I built a whole.
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Different universe around that acapella.
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And then Trap Nation, YouTube channel uploaded it and it blew up.
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And then I started getting calls like,
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Yeah.
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you wanna DJ this party?
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I was like, dj, I don't, I don't even know how to dj.
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Yeah,
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is.
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Yeah.
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yeah.
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I, I, I love this because.
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When you did that remix, were you trying to blow up?
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Was that the intention was I'm, I'm right.
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Yeah.
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no.
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I was not trying to blow up.
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I was, I, I did know from, from a very young age that I wanted to really express myself through music
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Yeah.
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that, that was, know, I, that was the thing that gave me purpose music and, yeah.
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I music, just something that I'm starting to realize now later in life that music has always been something to, to hold onto,
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Mm
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creatively, also spiritually, expressing myself in a song.
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Sometimes I, I have to finish a song before I can feel that peace, you know?
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And
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mm.
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it's, it's not always fun, it's, it does give me something to hold onto.
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Hmm.
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And, um, so, so making those remixes or just like doing something creative, doing something different was, uh, in a way something that I felt called to do.
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It was just not, not like, oh, I wanna blow up, but it
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Yeah.
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like I have to do this.
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Do.
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Yeah, it sounds like it was more for you, like an internal process, like you even said even a spiritual process than it was like an ex, an external process, which I think so many people that are listening to this podcast are like, I wanna blow up.
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What's the strategy?
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How do I do it?
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You know?
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And now, you know, having a remix strategy as part of your game plan is like, okay, let me remix this artist so that I can get some attention.
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And DJs are gonna play it like, it's so in, it's so intentional and strategic, but it's coming from such a different place than what you're talking about.
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thought, I never thought about a release strategy back then.
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But you also have to understand if you, if you go back 10 years, look at Instagram.
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I think Instagram didn't even support videos yet.
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It was
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Different era.
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Like social media was not about promoting your music or marketing.
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It
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Mm-hmm.
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you know, Instagram used to be this hipster app where you would take a photo and you would put a filter on on there and everyone's like,
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Yeah.
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looks like an analog, photo.
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Yeah.
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so, so the whole landscape was so different.
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And, um, SoundCloud for, for me was, was that that exciting platform where people could leave a comment on the audio file, which was so exciting too, because you knew you made something like, let's say you made this crazy drop that you heard in your head, and then you put it out on the internet and then you would see people's reaction to that drop written down on the way file.
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So that was such a.
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Hmm.
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beautiful experience.
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Yeah.
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bring that back.
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Like we, we need, why, why didn't Spotify support that?
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That would be so cool to see people on tracks.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Like on the actual part of the song that got them, you know, most inspired.
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Right.
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But I think we're bringing up a really good.
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Dialogue here because yes, the landscape has changed, right?
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The marketing tools has have changed.
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It was a different era.
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SoundCloud had a different culture around it.
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But at the same time, I think the essence of making music for yourself and for expression versus making music to try to become famous and make it a career.
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Yeah,
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ultimately two different things.
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And, not to say it's black or white.
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I'm sure you also still have some strategy in what you do.
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You know, now it's like, it's not one or the other, but I, I just think it's such an important thing to look at.
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And, and, and also I think this is what separates being a producer slash DJ versus being an artist.
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I think an artist is going to pursue making music because it's a calling.
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They have to, there's something inside of them that is genuinely curious and, and wanting to come out of your soul, versus when you're a producer, it's like, okay, here's, here's the formula, right?
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Here's what's happening.
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Here's the, you know, the trends and the labels, and there's a math and a science behind it.
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And again, not to say one is right or wrong, but I guess what I'm getting at is I want to really.
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Acknowledge you and celebrate you because from the first time I ever heard your music, I was like, whoa, this is some shit I've never heard before.
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This guy's doing his own thing.
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He's got his own sound, his own vibe, his own flavor.
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You weren't following any sort of trends per se, and, and you're someone that I really would consider, walking the true artist path in a very like, authentic way.
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This is, I really appreciate that.
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Thank you.
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First of all.
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Thanks for the compliment.
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It's very layered though.
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It's, it's
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Yeah.
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And I, and you're touching on a very interesting uh, I think layered concept where.
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Um, you know, I've always tried to stick to my sound.
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Um, I see artists, the big pop stars, you know, you see how they go from genre to genre.
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You know, they, for example, they used to do big room, then they go future base, and then they go house, and now they do UKG, you know,
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Yeah.
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I'm not hating on that.
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I'm just saying that's a different strategy.
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I personally wouldn't be able to do that because I've always been excited by things that stick out or are different from the common, um, yeah, what, what's popular and that, that sounds very hipster, but it's, it's not, it's, it's, uh, it's, know, is very interesting and, and.
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I've been playing with this thing for a long time.
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Um, I, music is intimate.
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To me.
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It's an intimate experience.
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Yeah.
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And, and if, if you suddenly, if I would suddenly start making the stuff that everyone is listening to or everyone wants to hear, that doesn't feel intimate to me anymore.
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I love li listening to artists that are.
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You know, are doing their own thing, and maybe they're not famous or, most of my, most of the, the, the, my favorite artists that I listen to, they don't make a living off of music.
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They, they have a small setup in their room and they work at a coffee shop, or they have a day job, but they make gorgeous music, you know, and it just doesn't feed the algorithm.
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But, but that experience of listening to them very intimate.
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And something happens, you know, when someone blows up and everyone listens to them and l let's for example, Fred again.
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Like when I first discovered Fred again, I was obsessed with, with his, his sound and his sampling and his approach, and it was just I'd never heard before.
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And still, like he has carved out, oh, his own genre like that, his genre is kind of fret again, and people have kind of.
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Jumped on that train.
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Yeah.
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there's something that happened when someone blows up big, where think the music is still insane and it's, he's an incredible producer and it's just good.
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can't deny it's really good.
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But the intimacy of when I first heard that song, I think it was called, uh uh, it's called I Found You.
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my God, that that song, I, and I, and I don't think anyone was really listening to it back then, but that intimacy with that song that you just discovered for yourself and No, and it was, no one knew about it.
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something that I really like about music and it's, it's,
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Yeah.
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I wish, I wish I wasn't like that.
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I
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Hmm.
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like that.
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Well, and that's kind of the old traditional role, I would say, of a DJ in a, in, in, in certain areas was like to introduce new undiscovered music.
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And I guess, you know, it, it still is, right?
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Um, but yeah, it's an interesting thing to look at of the.
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The newness when something is still just surfacing and just bubbling and, and that,
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Yeah.
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that intimacy of like, Ooh, I'm, I'm kind of the first person experiencing this.
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It hasn't been played out millions of times yet, and it has a different Yeah, nuance to it.
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to clarify, this is, this is not a, um, this is not saying, Hey, don't like him anymore because he went may mainstream, or That artist is bad because they sold out and they went mainstream.
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Not at all.
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This
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Yeah.
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I'm just expressing my personal opinion, how I experience music, my relationship to music.
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It's interesting.
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It's, it's, uh, it's very intimate I
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Hmm.
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um, and, and that's okay.
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probably just how I'm gonna go through life.
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I'm gonna hear something, uh, sometimes I hear a video on Instagram reels.
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I'm scrolling and I hear something.
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I'm like, whoa, this is, this sounds very special.
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And I
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Yeah.
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it and I listen to it, um, because it sounds so, yeah.
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Beautiful to
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I, how do you, I'm curious, how do you as a creator, as a producer, as an artist, continue to create.
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Outside of the box.
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Right.
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How do you continue to kind of stay fresh with your sound and not fall into, you know, repetition and continue to evolve?
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Yeah, for, for me, that's the only thing that, that drives me, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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Uh, I, I did an album last year called Existential Dance Music, and then, I played this dubstep festival, lost Lands, and that's more like a, you know, it's like a music,
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Yeah.
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uh, lots of dubstep, brim, and I just thought, let's do something different.
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And I, I thought of this concept called wholesome rhythm, which is kind of like There's already melodic rhythm exists, but I wanted to bring a, a new twist to it.
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And I thought people were gonna hate on it, but people really liked the wholesome rhythm thing.
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Um, so I dedicated this year and next year to kind of doing that, exploring a new kind of, production method and, and style, wholesome rhythm era.
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Yeah.
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really, really fun because I'm learning all these new techniques and, uh, it still feels like me, but then with a, with a different.
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Edge, a
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's not a choice to, uh, stay different.
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It is, a, a natural thing that I, if I'm making something that sounds like, like right now, if I'm making something that sounds like UKG or like, not hating on UKG, by the way, not hating on it, but.
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If I,
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That's nice.
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in the studio and I make something and it sounds too much like what's popping right now,
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Yeah.
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I naturally do change everything up so that it doesn't sound like that.
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And that's a blessing and a curse.
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'cause I wish I could just go along with the wave sometimes because it would be great for my career.
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That's, that's be honest, you know?
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But.
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Uh, no, I love that though.
00:16:36.754 --> 00:16:37.293
I love that.
00:16:37.293 --> 00:16:39.609
You know, I've, I've seen this a lot with.
00:16:40.548 --> 00:16:49.759
Producers and, and also kind of more traditional record producers as well, when you sort of read some of their stories of how they made certain albums.
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:58.188
And again, not to make it so black and white, but I, I do think there are, um, you know, different, at least two different approaches I see for a lot of.
00:16:58.578 --> 00:17:06.618
Younger kind of bedroom producers, they're just trying to find their sound or trying to find, you know, the formula, right?
00:17:06.618 --> 00:17:07.548
And it's like, okay, cool.
00:17:07.578 --> 00:17:11.538
Now I found this thing and now I can make a bunch of music.
00:17:11.538 --> 00:17:22.669
And, and, and really, um, it's almost like they've arrived at that destination as opposed to A lot of producers are kinda like, once I've done things a certain way, now I want to.
00:17:23.493 --> 00:17:24.784
I'm kind of bored of that.
00:17:24.844 --> 00:17:26.163
Like, what's next?
00:17:26.163 --> 00:17:31.624
Like what's the next kind of fun, interesting, different, exciting thing to chase.
00:17:31.743 --> 00:17:36.213
And I love reading these stories of, you know, record producers where they're like, okay, we, we did the last album this way.
00:17:36.634 --> 00:17:37.023
And now.
00:17:37.023 --> 00:17:39.034
Now, okay, it's time for a different album.
00:17:39.034 --> 00:17:41.284
And you know, let's see what it's like to.
00:17:41.838 --> 00:17:45.979
Hang the guitar amp upside down from the ceiling fan and see what that sounds like.
00:17:45.979 --> 00:17:47.929
And let's like, you know, let's try this out.
00:17:47.929 --> 00:17:48.888
I've never tried this before.
00:17:48.888 --> 00:17:50.148
Here's a crazy idea.
00:17:50.148 --> 00:17:59.479
And, and it's more of chasing and following the curiosity of like, what's possible and what's next, rather than what's been done and how do I figure out how to do that?
00:18:00.858 --> 00:18:01.969
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:01.969 --> 00:18:07.878
And, and I think, um, everyone, everyone's relationship to music is different.
00:18:08.568 --> 00:18:17.298
That's something that I have learned throughout the years and I navigate my music journey through my relationship with music.
00:18:18.199 --> 00:18:23.719
Um, but music for someone could.
00:18:25.023 --> 00:18:26.193
I just wanna have a good time.
00:18:26.493 --> 00:18:27.963
I want it to make me happy.
00:18:28.384 --> 00:18:28.953
You know, I've,
00:18:28.999 --> 00:18:29.058
Yeah.
00:18:29.374 --> 00:18:35.733
I've, I've talked with several people who, who said, um, oh, I just wanna play music in the car.
00:18:35.733 --> 00:18:39.604
That kind of makes me feel like uplifted and happy.
00:18:40.594 --> 00:18:42.094
I don't want music to make me sad.
00:18:42.334 --> 00:18:44.523
I, you know, and for me, it's the opposite.
00:18:44.523 --> 00:18:46.713
I, I want to play music that digs
00:18:46.848 --> 00:18:47.058
Mm.
00:18:47.134 --> 00:18:48.034
soul, you know?
00:18:48.648 --> 00:18:49.068
Yeah,
00:18:49.294 --> 00:18:50.913
so, so it's different for everyone,
00:18:51.304 --> 00:18:51.794
totally.
00:18:52.023 --> 00:18:52.983
no right or wrong.
00:18:54.048 --> 00:19:09.469
Um, that, that, that was a very, really, uh, fascinating realization that, that, wow, like music is not just this, the function of music is different for everyone.
00:19:10.199 --> 00:19:10.308
Mm-hmm.
00:19:10.308 --> 00:19:10.578
mean?
00:19:11.179 --> 00:19:11.538
Yeah.
00:19:12.019 --> 00:19:12.469
Yeah,
00:19:13.219 --> 00:19:13.608
of it.
00:19:14.328 --> 00:19:14.749
yeah.
00:19:17.509 --> 00:19:18.588
yeah, it's interesting
00:19:19.459 --> 00:19:21.348
And none of it is right or wrong.
00:19:21.798 --> 00:19:22.249
Right.
00:19:22.459 --> 00:19:25.608
I think that that's really important too, is like, yeah.
00:19:25.699 --> 00:19:32.808
I'm grateful for,'cause my, you know, I'm, relationship to music emotionally is really complex.
00:19:33.108 --> 00:19:33.828
I love it.
00:19:34.638 --> 00:19:38.088
But I also, sometimes it kills me when I'm writing a song.
00:19:38.239 --> 00:19:38.659
You know
00:19:38.753 --> 00:19:38.973
Mm.
00:19:39.199 --> 00:19:41.419
I, but when I can't get it right, it's not fun.
00:19:41.898 --> 00:19:41.959
A
00:19:42.124 --> 00:19:42.344
Mm
00:19:42.439 --> 00:19:43.818
It's not a hobby in that sense.
00:19:43.818 --> 00:19:44.148
It's not
00:19:44.344 --> 00:19:44.564
mm.
00:19:44.868 --> 00:19:46.128
I'm gonna go play tennis.
00:19:46.429 --> 00:19:57.229
And have some fun, you know, like it's, uh, um, I guess if you, if you take it that seriously, everything becomes not only fun, it becomes more of a calling,
00:19:58.128 --> 00:19:58.548
Yeah.
00:19:58.878 --> 00:20:00.618
like a thing, thing to figure out.
00:20:00.679 --> 00:20:01.189
And uh,
00:20:01.278 --> 00:20:01.669
Yeah,
00:20:01.878 --> 00:20:06.588
you know, right now I'm working on this song and I'm just like, can't get it right.
00:20:06.858 --> 00:20:12.648
And I feel this unease in my being, you
00:20:12.709 --> 00:20:14.148
yeah, yeah.
00:20:15.259 --> 00:20:16.009
And, and how?
00:20:16.038 --> 00:20:17.239
me, it's that serious.
00:20:17.794 --> 00:20:28.233
And how do you work through that when you hit those creative blocks, not being able to really find the, you know, resolution to the song that you're, that you're seeking.
00:20:28.683 --> 00:20:30.153
What do you do to work around that?
00:20:30.344 --> 00:20:31.638
I, I think I, I don't know.
00:20:31.669 --> 00:20:37.909
It's not a, it's not a working around, it's about just, maybe it's not the, maybe that's not a problem.
00:20:37.969 --> 00:20:38.479
Maybe that's
00:20:38.763 --> 00:20:39.094
Hmm.
00:20:39.828 --> 00:20:40.159
my strength.
00:20:41.673 --> 00:20:46.683
I take it that personal and that hope, you know, I hope that people hear that.
00:20:46.683 --> 00:20:56.763
I hope that every sound I pick, you know, you can pick any sound of, of and I could tell you where it comes from and where I was at that time and how I was feeling.
00:20:57.354 --> 00:20:57.644
Yeah.
00:20:57.844 --> 00:21:00.304
for some other people making a song by me.
00:21:00.304 --> 00:21:02.794
Just more like, let's make a banger.
00:21:02.794 --> 00:21:03.963
Let's make something that feels good.
00:21:03.963 --> 00:21:04.443
You know, like,
00:21:05.118 --> 00:21:05.538
Yeah.
00:21:05.538 --> 00:21:05.598
Yeah.
00:21:05.614 --> 00:21:08.794
also good and that's beautiful in its own way too.
00:21:09.558 --> 00:21:10.068
Yeah.
00:21:10.578 --> 00:21:22.699
Well, I think you just said something so profound, which is that what if struggling with your song or having a creative block isn't a problem?
00:21:23.689 --> 00:21:25.848
Because we look at that as being a problem, right?
00:21:25.848 --> 00:21:29.388
It's like, oh, I want to come in and just be inspired and, and have flow and all of that.
00:21:29.388 --> 00:21:36.019
But there's almost this, this wrestle that you get to have with your music is the whole point, right?
00:21:36.019 --> 00:21:37.578
It's, it's kind of like, it's like life.
00:21:37.578 --> 00:21:43.519
It's like, oh, what if I just always wanted to be happy and everything always worked out all the time in life was just that.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:48.798
It's like, no, that's, life is also pain and struggle and challenge, but that's what makes you who you are.
00:21:48.798 --> 00:21:50.239
It's what makes it fucking beautiful.
00:21:51.199 --> 00:21:51.558
Yeah.
00:21:51.709 --> 00:21:59.118
That's why I, I always tend to, you know, I get, I get artists asking me like, Hey, what do you do when you've got writer's block?
00:22:00.019 --> 00:22:01.739
and, uh, you know.
00:22:03.243 --> 00:22:05.733
We like to create diagnosis like as people, right?
00:22:05.794 --> 00:22:07.683
We like to diagnose ourselves like, oh, I, I
00:22:07.693 --> 00:22:07.933
Yeah.
00:22:08.703 --> 00:22:10.534
I can't work right now'cause I have writer's block.
00:22:11.644 --> 00:22:13.804
I, does it really exist?
00:22:13.834 --> 00:22:16.054
Like, isn't it, isn't it just like life happening?
00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:17.118
Yeah.
00:22:17.433 --> 00:22:19.144
you don't want to claim that term.
00:22:19.199 --> 00:22:19.499
You know,
00:22:19.909 --> 00:22:20.239
Mm.
00:22:20.388 --> 00:22:22.088
don't wanna, if
00:22:22.614 --> 00:22:22.903
Yeah.
00:22:22.929 --> 00:22:27.028
you're, maybe you're already writing when you think you're not writing.
00:22:27.213 --> 00:22:31.263
Sometimes I'm, sometimes I, oh, the other day I had this.
00:22:32.388 --> 00:22:38.058
I was trying to just create something'cause I couldn't create like a dance strike that I was working on.
00:22:38.058 --> 00:22:43.848
So I played some guitar recorded some guitar noodles and I thought, oh, this also sucks.
00:22:44.028 --> 00:22:47.808
So I created this guitar loop and I was like, it's whatever.
00:22:48.588 --> 00:22:55.159
And then I reversed it and chopped it up, and then something happened.
00:22:55.249 --> 00:22:57.318
And uh, now I'm working on that song.
00:22:57.469 --> 00:22:59.239
I put a beat on it and like it's my favorite song.
00:23:00.304 --> 00:23:09.378
So I was already writing that song, Like subconsciously there was already, struggle was already doing something to me
00:23:10.294 --> 00:23:10.894
Yeah.
00:23:10.939 --> 00:23:11.598
next song,
00:23:12.288 --> 00:23:12.769
Yeah.
00:23:12.949 --> 00:23:12.959
know.
00:23:13.249 --> 00:23:13.608
Ooh.
00:23:13.848 --> 00:23:28.909
And just to expand that perspective even a bit more, we can potentially limit ourselves to thinking that writing the song only exists when I'm sitting down at the DAW or the guitar and I'm, you know, quote unquote working on the song.
00:23:29.148 --> 00:23:30.763
But what if also it's when I.
00:23:31.548 --> 00:23:39.828
Go to the beach that weekend and I jump in the water and I feel the sand on my toes and I experience life and I have a conversation with a friend that that's also a
00:23:39.874 --> 00:23:40.233
Yeah.
00:23:41.419 --> 00:23:45.229
my mindset, my personality, my emotions.
00:23:45.259 --> 00:23:48.798
And then when I go back to sit down again, all of that is being brought into the song.
00:23:48.798 --> 00:23:50.838
So when are we ever not an artist?
00:23:52.429 --> 00:23:52.699
Yeah.
00:23:52.969 --> 00:23:53.959
That, and that's the thing.
00:23:54.019 --> 00:23:57.229
And that's also the, the weight, right?
00:23:57.588 --> 00:24:10.038
Uh, I had a conversation with, with someone the other day and he said, uh, you know, we put a lot of weight on ourselves trying to up every day thinking create something beautiful day.
00:24:10.864 --> 00:24:14.523
That's, and I realized, whoa, that's literally what I've been doing for the last 10 years.
00:24:14.523 --> 00:24:19.624
I wake up thinking I gotta make something of nothing.
00:24:20.374 --> 00:24:22.923
I gotta create something, gotta create beauty, gotta create.
00:24:24.094 --> 00:24:25.354
I'm not saying this to myself.
00:24:25.354 --> 00:24:28.144
I'm not looking into mirror and saying, you gotta create beauty.
00:24:28.324 --> 00:24:29.794
No, it's, but it's this feeling inside.
00:24:29.794 --> 00:24:35.294
You wanna create, create, create, um, pretty intense, you know.
00:24:35.449 --> 00:24:35.719
Yeah.
00:24:36.314 --> 00:24:36.604
Yeah.
00:24:37.344 --> 00:24:41.179
And what's a different mindset and approach to have?
00:24:42.364 --> 00:24:46.203
Rather than I have to create something and then that feels heavy.
00:24:46.203 --> 00:24:49.594
Like what's another mindset to step into around it?
00:24:50.163 --> 00:24:51.634
You know, I'm still figuring that out.
00:24:51.753 --> 00:24:53.913
Maybe it's, uh, don't know.
00:24:53.973 --> 00:24:55.263
I, that I still feel it.
00:24:55.263 --> 00:25:04.713
I still feel, um, a little bit of an ease when I'm not, uh, creating.
00:25:05.878 --> 00:25:05.999
Hmm.
00:25:06.124 --> 00:25:12.574
it's, I, I don't know if it's a bad thing or if I need a better relationship with it, but, um,
00:25:12.898 --> 00:25:13.019
Hmm.
00:25:13.413 --> 00:25:16.294
it's also the artist's struggle, I guess.
00:25:17.459 --> 00:25:17.578
Hmm.
00:25:18.304 --> 00:25:18.753
I dunno.
00:25:19.084 --> 00:25:23.493
It's uh, I just realize there's so many, everyone is so different.
00:25:24.183 --> 00:25:25.263
Everyone is so different.
00:25:25.263 --> 00:25:26.523
Every artist is different.
00:25:26.528 --> 00:25:28.983
Some artists just are very focused.
00:25:28.983 --> 00:25:33.919
They say nine to five, I lock in, and then whatever happens that day.
00:25:35.523 --> 00:25:40.519
I, I, start and I close it, and then I go back home, and then tomorrow we start again.
00:25:41.719 --> 00:25:46.999
I, for me, it's a, it's, never ending, also never starting.
00:25:47.628 --> 00:25:55.098
You know, it, it, it's, I could have a conversation with you today that inspires a whole record, you know?
00:25:55.368 --> 00:25:55.638
Uh,
00:25:56.719 --> 00:25:57.223
I hope it does.
00:26:00.153 --> 00:26:06.213
San Holo Headliner Mindset EP coming out 2026.
00:26:07.878 --> 00:26:08.419
Yes.
00:26:08.463 --> 00:26:08.913
Hmm.
00:26:09.364 --> 00:26:10.233
I love that.
00:26:10.294 --> 00:26:10.683
Um,
00:26:12.048 --> 00:26:13.669
Collab, collab of the century.
00:26:14.028 --> 00:26:14.318
yeah.
00:26:15.499 --> 00:26:16.608
I did wanna say something.
00:26:16.608 --> 00:26:26.959
We, we kind of, we kind of, uh, you know, kept on talking and it was, uh, I, I enjoyed the free flow of the conversation, but you did say something earlier that I wanted to talk about.
00:26:26.959 --> 00:26:28.578
Um, the.
00:26:30.114 --> 00:26:32.568
I, I wanna put the record straight.
00:26:33.048 --> 00:26:45.919
I, um, you said back, back in the day like that I made music out of, um, just a pure passion perspective, right?
00:26:45.919 --> 00:26:50.028
Like, not just with the idea of like, I wanna blow up, I want to be famous.
00:26:50.929 --> 00:26:51.798
That is correct.
00:26:52.128 --> 00:26:58.009
Um, but I can't deny that right now, 10 years down the line.
00:26:58.683 --> 00:27:06.304
I do definitely feel like part artists, but also running a business, you know,
00:27:06.449 --> 00:27:06.828
Yeah,
00:27:06.903 --> 00:27:20.614
also, I am, um, is a choice and it's a choice I've made and sometimes it's a struggle with the, the creative part inside of me
00:27:21.304 --> 00:27:21.634
Hmm.
00:27:22.653 --> 00:27:25.894
and navigating that has been really interesting throughout the years.
00:27:26.463 --> 00:27:26.794
Yeah.
00:27:27.064 --> 00:27:28.354
Why do you say it's a choice?
00:27:32.058 --> 00:27:35.328
Because, uh, you can be an amazing artist.
00:27:35.749 --> 00:27:40.038
You can be an incredible artist and not get paid anything for your work.
00:27:40.929 --> 00:27:41.219
Yeah.
00:27:41.239 --> 00:27:42.618
You know, that's just a fact.
00:27:42.679 --> 00:27:43.098
I know a
00:27:43.199 --> 00:27:43.489
Yeah.
00:27:43.878 --> 00:27:49.009
artists that are not getting, paid or living off of their work
00:27:49.594 --> 00:27:49.923
Yeah.
00:27:50.269 --> 00:27:54.703
and I think if you want to live off of your work, that's that some.
00:27:55.983 --> 00:28:01.804
There has to be some sort of businessman in you
00:28:02.638 --> 00:28:02.929
Yeah.
00:28:03.693 --> 00:28:06.483
or, you know, and that's the struggle.
00:28:06.483 --> 00:28:11.794
And I, and I'm not, I'm, that's not my natural state, not my
00:28:11.824 --> 00:28:11.884
Yeah.
00:28:12.213 --> 00:28:17.013
state to think about budgets and how to market it.
00:28:17.104 --> 00:28:24.334
And, but it's a choice I've made and for now I've decided to, to.
00:28:25.009 --> 00:28:26.659
Play that role sometimes
00:28:27.098 --> 00:28:27.519
Mm-hmm.
00:28:27.739 --> 00:28:33.888
and, and, um, but it's not, not going to be forever.
00:28:34.219 --> 00:28:34.429
It's
00:28:34.564 --> 00:28:34.923
Yeah.
00:28:35.269 --> 00:28:35.538
I
00:28:35.824 --> 00:28:36.213
Yeah.
00:28:36.429 --> 00:28:36.719
Yeah.
00:28:36.858 --> 00:28:37.608
want to do that.
00:28:40.384 --> 00:28:54.673
Yeah, this, this is something I talk a lot about on the podcast is, you know, for every artist that's out there that's making music, and you know, by all means, make music and love the process.
00:28:54.673 --> 00:29:00.314
And, and, and if at some point you want to be successful in the music business.
00:29:00.733 --> 00:29:03.374
You also get to start a business, right?
00:29:03.374 --> 00:29:09.973
In order to have it turn into income, in order to market yourself, build a brand, play shows, make money, all of that.
00:29:09.973 --> 00:29:20.163
Like you have to become a, in the beginning, a self-employed entrepreneur, you are a business owner, and that's the big struggle for a lot of people is I love making music.
00:29:20.163 --> 00:29:24.219
I don't necessarily love being a business owner, and one, you don't have to, but.
00:29:24.933 --> 00:29:31.503
But two, if, if you want to, you know, turn it into a career, I think it's an inevitable, an inevitable part of the process.
00:29:32.088 --> 00:29:39.828
Even hearing you talk about it, like being like, you have to be an entrepreneur and stuff, and like that, it's, it is a harsh reality.
00:29:40.683 --> 00:29:41.163
Yeah.
00:29:41.328 --> 00:29:55.278
but it's not a nice, it's that the, the art that comes from the heart and the love that you pour into it is so detached from, from those concepts, those numbers, and.
00:29:56.308 --> 00:29:56.598
Yeah.
00:29:57.243 --> 00:30:04.864
It, it is an intimate world that you feel inside yourself, that you feel like you wanna express and put out basically what you wanna put out.
00:30:04.864 --> 00:30:05.763
Love into the world.
00:30:06.249 --> 00:30:06.538
Yeah.
00:30:06.574 --> 00:30:07.834
you wanna do as an artist.
00:30:08.103 --> 00:30:14.313
Whether it's with sad music or with happy music, or with whatever type of music you wanna put love into the world.
00:30:14.827 --> 00:30:22.208
I'm so curious to hear your perspective on this because I've seen this and, and I've worked with a handful of artists.
00:30:22.208 --> 00:30:33.282
I do life coaching, four artists specifically, and mindset coaching where I've had artists where you, when you start.
00:30:34.143 --> 00:30:36.873
You're not thinking about the business.
00:30:36.962 --> 00:30:48.073
And so you're making music from a place of pure joy, fun, passion, creativity, and then that's what makes the music successful is because there's a certain kind of energy that you're putting into it.
00:30:48.073 --> 00:30:49.032
I think similar to you.
00:30:49.032 --> 00:30:51.853
You're like, I wasn't trying to make this remix blow up.
00:30:51.853 --> 00:30:53.053
I was just having fun.
00:30:53.742 --> 00:30:55.482
And then it blows up.
00:30:55.692 --> 00:30:56.742
It gets a lot of attention.
00:30:56.742 --> 00:31:00.282
Everybody falls in love with it, and now all of a sudden, whether you realize it or not.
00:31:00.607 --> 00:31:05.377
You're running a business, you're in the business, and now, now you're touring.
00:31:05.857 --> 00:31:07.627
This becomes the full-time job.
00:31:07.627 --> 00:31:11.288
All of a sudden, you have to keep touring to pay the bills.
00:31:11.317 --> 00:31:26.468
All of a sudden there's a whole different level of, stress and pressure and contracts and, you know, touring and, and so now you're also trying to be creative, but it's, you're not in the same place that you were before.
00:31:26.468 --> 00:31:33.337
So the, the trap I often times see people fall into is now I'm making music more as fuel.
00:31:34.282 --> 00:31:37.762
To keep the business going so I can kind of keep the bills paid.
00:31:38.182 --> 00:31:41.333
And then I'm now probably losing that passion.
00:31:41.333 --> 00:31:43.012
I'm losing that same spark.
00:31:43.073 --> 00:31:43.432
Right?
00:31:43.432 --> 00:31:50.182
And so a lot of the, a lot of the work that I've done with people is like, how do you get realigned with that spark again?
00:31:50.663 --> 00:31:56.663
Um, but it's, I think it's an inev and, and inevitable part of most artists journeys.
00:31:56.663 --> 00:31:59.002
And I'm curious if you've experienced that for yourself as well.
00:32:00.212 --> 00:32:02.752
That's, uh, a hundred percent what I experience.
00:32:03.268 --> 00:32:03.688
Mm-hmm.
00:32:03.982 --> 00:32:13.597
touring makes, touring makes things a lot more complex in terms of you have a touring artist project, there's a lot of costs that come with that.
00:32:14.258 --> 00:32:23.077
And a lot of risk, a lot of people involved and it's an amazing experience getting to tour.
00:32:23.077 --> 00:32:26.167
It's it that itself inspired me so much.
00:32:26.167 --> 00:32:31.357
Being able to, to Asia next month to play Korea, Japan, and China.
00:32:34.748 --> 00:32:36.248
you lent in China.
00:32:36.248 --> 00:32:42.248
I lent at the airport and there's people the other side of the world with my merchant.
00:32:43.373 --> 00:32:43.913
presence.
00:32:43.913 --> 00:32:59.603
And it's not that that inspires me, that, oh, I'm famous, but like the, the fact that they have had an experience with my music on the other side of the world, they connected to something that I made in my bedroom that is inspiring to me.
00:32:59.992 --> 00:33:04.643
Not the being there and, and getting gifts.
00:33:04.673 --> 00:33:07.012
That's, that's of course.
00:33:07.012 --> 00:33:11.512
But the fact that people connected to it from the other side of the world is beautiful to me.
00:33:11.932 --> 00:33:12.383
However.
00:33:14.137 --> 00:33:29.557
The touring side is just, um, extremely stressful because there's a lot of money involved with getting your production to every, every venue.
00:33:29.827 --> 00:33:34.627
You know, you have, you have your crew that needs to get paid.
00:33:35.263 --> 00:33:36.989
At some point you start to think, oh.
00:33:38.294 --> 00:33:42.193
For example, right now I would love to work on an ambient album, right?
00:33:42.253 --> 00:33:43.003
I would love to
00:33:43.108 --> 00:33:43.499
Yeah.
00:33:44.804 --> 00:33:45.973
guitar album.
00:33:46.034 --> 00:33:51.344
Let's say I just wanna play guitar and like noodle around and record that and get really creative.
00:33:51.344 --> 00:33:53.534
But at the same time, I also wanna tour next year
00:33:55.288 --> 00:33:55.558
Yeah.
00:33:55.709 --> 00:34:02.238
and, I'm gonna show up at festivals and play an ambient guitar set as San Holo, people are
00:34:02.462 --> 00:34:02.792
Yeah.
00:34:03.557 --> 00:34:03.738
You
00:34:03.962 --> 00:34:05.553
Maybe, maybe not at Lost Lands.
00:34:06.557 --> 00:34:07.127
Yeah, maybe.
00:34:07.458 --> 00:34:07.907
Yeah.
00:34:08.898 --> 00:34:09.228
Or maybe
00:34:09.302 --> 00:34:10.233
Yeah,
00:34:10.577 --> 00:34:10.967
the next time.
00:34:11.163 --> 00:34:12.963
yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:13.443 --> 00:34:22.947
Well, what do you, what do you think is the solution and, and what have you done as a touring artist to, um, to stay.
00:34:24.137 --> 00:34:33.677
Grounded and balanced in the midst of all of the moving pieces and the pressure that comes with being a touring artist.
00:34:34.233 --> 00:34:38.612
I think for me, accepting that, that it is a choice for me right now to,
00:34:39.137 --> 00:34:39.347
Mm-hmm.
00:34:40.353 --> 00:34:41.492
to do this.
00:34:42.322 --> 00:34:42.612
Yeah.
00:34:42.992 --> 00:34:48.362
I know that I can always fall back to art the way I started.
00:34:48.932 --> 00:34:49.052
You
00:34:49.248 --> 00:34:49.577
Yeah.
00:34:50.552 --> 00:34:58.322
I don't have a responsibility to, uh, I can, I have to, I can decide.
00:34:58.353 --> 00:34:59.103
This gives me peace.
00:34:59.103 --> 00:35:00.753
Some, some type, sometimes to.
00:35:01.427 --> 00:35:03.168
Stop tomorrow and say, Hey,
00:35:03.407 --> 00:35:03.918
Yeah.
00:35:03.978 --> 00:35:04.338
fun.
00:35:04.458 --> 00:35:10.487
I'm gonna go back to me and a little guitar recording some stuff, and I don't care who listens to it.
00:35:10.487 --> 00:35:11.327
This is just for me.
00:35:11.865 --> 00:35:20.416
It's so huge because back to what you were saying about waking up and feeling the pressure of I have to create something great today.
00:35:21.135 --> 00:35:27.856
I know for you that's coming a little bit more from a, almost like a spiritual perspective, but also also it can be the,
00:35:27.916 --> 00:35:28.365
business
00:35:28.456 --> 00:35:33.106
now it's like, yeah, I gotta keep the business going, so I gotta create the next album or whatever.
00:35:33.496 --> 00:35:38.686
And when we are stuck in the mindset of I have to.
00:35:39.331 --> 00:35:39.871
Right.
00:35:40.221 --> 00:35:40.510
Yeah.
00:35:40.530 --> 00:35:48.621
We make ourselves powerless, but shifting into, I'm choosing to, and also like I get to, this is a choice.
00:35:48.621 --> 00:35:50.570
I get to do this.
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:55.190
It's a big perspective shift that really changes the entire game.
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:56.210
Like, this is a choice.
00:35:56.210 --> 00:36:01.371
Nobody's holding a gun to my head and making me get outta bed and make music, or making me get outta bed and, and go on tour.
00:36:01.791 --> 00:36:02.181
Right.
00:36:02.210 --> 00:36:06.831
And, and to ultimately step into, you know, that, that.
00:36:07.956 --> 00:36:11.076
State of like, wow, like I, I get to do this every day.
00:36:11.076 --> 00:36:12.576
I'm blessed to do this every day.
00:36:12.576 --> 00:36:12.876
Right?
00:36:12.876 --> 00:36:16.476
And it can be easier, easier said than done to just think your way into that.
00:36:16.476 --> 00:36:20.646
But if every day we're waking up and we're like, fuck, I have to do this.
00:36:20.646 --> 00:36:21.306
Oh my gosh.
00:36:21.306 --> 00:36:21.996
It's like, okay.
00:36:21.996 --> 00:36:26.315
That's the first step to look to work on is like, how am I, how am I seeing all of this?
00:36:26.315 --> 00:36:27.365
Like it is a choice.
00:36:27.396 --> 00:36:28.626
So I love that you point that out.
00:36:28.641 --> 00:36:31.641
choice for me to me be clear.
00:36:31.641 --> 00:36:37.670
It's a choice for me to, to do this, to do music and also to do the music industry.
00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:38.570
That's a choice
00:36:39.306 --> 00:36:39.485
Yeah.
00:36:39.530 --> 00:36:39.740
to do.
00:36:39.740 --> 00:36:41.090
Music is a calling
00:36:41.675 --> 00:36:42.155
Yeah,
00:36:42.201 --> 00:36:43.280
the music industry.
00:36:43.460 --> 00:36:43.710
It's a choice.
00:36:44.766 --> 00:36:45.096
yeah.
00:36:45.186 --> 00:36:46.686
I don't think it's a choice for you to do music.
00:36:46.686 --> 00:36:50.646
I think you have to do music for your, for your soul and for your spirit, right?
00:36:50.646 --> 00:36:51.005
Yeah,
00:36:51.005 --> 00:36:54.155
is a, music is a calling, and that's what I will
00:36:54.155 --> 00:36:54.606
totally.
00:36:55.476 --> 00:36:56.675
till the day that I die.
00:36:57.335 --> 00:36:57.606
Yeah.
00:36:57.755 --> 00:37:10.416
industry is a choice and I have, uh, with that choice, seeing it as a choice also enabled me to get inspired by navigating that.
00:37:10.505 --> 00:37:13.056
So getting inspired by touring the world.
00:37:13.670 --> 00:37:19.760
And getting inspired by, what do I want versus what does the world want?
00:37:20.405 --> 00:37:20.735
Yeah.
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.981
that whole process is you can find inspiration in that too.
00:37:24.981 --> 00:37:26.300
It's an art in itself.
00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:36.471
I, I spoke about it with my therapist the other day, and, uh, she said, you know, balancing those two things, um, instead of viewing it as a.
00:37:37.041 --> 00:37:38.030
An evil thing.
00:37:38.061 --> 00:37:40.911
You could also see that as an inspir inspiring thing.
00:37:41.030 --> 00:37:42.561
You know, it's an art in itself.
00:37:42.590 --> 00:37:48.440
How to,'cause here's the thing, I went to school for music.
00:37:48.501 --> 00:37:49.760
Uh, I started guitar.
00:37:49.820 --> 00:37:58.340
And everyone teaches you how to, how to play guitar, how to make music, how to, maybe even these days they teach you how to market it.
00:37:58.340 --> 00:37:58.851
I don't know.
00:37:59.661 --> 00:38:02.675
no one teaches you what to do when it.
00:38:03.561 --> 00:38:06.081
When it's happening, when, when it works, when it's,
00:38:06.081 --> 00:38:06.501
Mm-hmm.
00:38:06.860 --> 00:38:07.911
it, when you're doing it.
00:38:08.751 --> 00:38:11.451
The, the whole, the, the psychology behind that.
00:38:11.690 --> 00:38:13.161
You can't teach anyone that.
00:38:13.161 --> 00:38:18.050
It's an experience that you, some point hopefully for everyone's watching.
00:38:18.050 --> 00:38:19.701
I hope that you get to experience that.
00:38:20.420 --> 00:38:20.710
Yeah.
00:38:22.641 --> 00:38:25.400
but then you're kind of on your own, you know?
00:38:25.490 --> 00:38:29.601
And I guess that's why people come to you also and like say like, yo, what the hell?
00:38:29.601 --> 00:38:30.231
Like what am I,
00:38:30.246 --> 00:38:30.755
Yeah.
00:38:30.831 --> 00:38:31.251
I do?
00:38:31.896 --> 00:38:32.315
Yeah.
00:38:32.556 --> 00:38:42.425
Well, as somebody who has been doing it, obviously your journey is unique, and it's your life and your world, your universe that you've created.
00:38:43.550 --> 00:38:53.001
But what are some tips that you would give to artists that are about to take that step and, and get outta the bedroom and start touring?
00:38:53.001 --> 00:38:59.960
What are some, what if we had the course to teach and offer, what would some of the lessons be in that?
00:39:02.976 --> 00:39:05.135
Look man, like advice from me.
00:39:05.856 --> 00:39:10.835
Um, is that everyone is so vastly different.
00:39:10.835 --> 00:39:12.755
Every person is so vastly different.
00:39:13.956 --> 00:39:24.306
I, my advice would be don't listen too much to, to the advice everyone is throwing at you.
00:39:25.065 --> 00:39:25.266
Yeah.
00:39:26.255 --> 00:39:31.925
that might work for them, but what you might need, you know, sometimes I see people talk and say, you know, here's.
00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:40.610
you should get into the studio and finish a song in 30 minutes and then do the, do the, like, create five ideas in a session.
00:39:41.331 --> 00:39:45.231
And, and I would, I would feel terrible doing that.
00:39:45.351 --> 00:39:56.541
I, I spend a month on a song, you know, sometimes like, and I go, go for a walk at night, listen to the lyrics and change the lyrics up because it doesn't feel right and, you know.
00:39:58.340 --> 00:40:02.061
You, you might say, oh, that's a terrible process because it's not effective.
00:40:02.391 --> 00:40:11.721
But if that's how you operate and that's how you get your motivation and, and inspiration, might to say that you should make five songs
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:12.800
Yeah.
00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:13.641
You know?
00:40:13.731 --> 00:40:14.061
Yeah,
00:40:14.121 --> 00:40:15.231
a lot of that content.
00:40:15.231 --> 00:40:15.771
You see a lot
00:40:15.831 --> 00:40:16.190
yeah,
00:40:16.465 --> 00:40:19.521
of, of people saying this, do this.
00:40:19.521 --> 00:40:20.481
Here's my advice for you.
00:40:20.481 --> 00:40:20.811
Do that.
00:40:20.811 --> 00:40:24.096
Like, and I, I think you can't just.
00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:29.990
Should advice, general advice to everyone.
00:40:30.681 --> 00:40:30.920
It,
00:40:31.101 --> 00:40:31.161
Yeah.
00:40:31.701 --> 00:40:36.590
person should be treated as an, as their own universe.
00:40:36.650 --> 00:40:37.731
You're a whole universe.
00:40:37.731 --> 00:40:37.971
Your,
00:40:38.246 --> 00:40:38.536
Yeah.
00:40:38.811 --> 00:40:44.090
your, the way, your, your culture, your religion, your parents, your relationship to art.
00:40:44.931 --> 00:40:48.291
so deep, and I think this.
00:40:48.650 --> 00:40:51.920
You can't really cut this into a nice Instagram reel.
00:40:52.221 --> 00:40:53.721
My answer, you know.
00:40:54.141 --> 00:40:57.501
I wish I could just say, here's my advice, do this, do
00:40:57.746 --> 00:40:58.036
Yeah.
00:40:58.190 --> 00:41:14.751
But I think my advice is more, more, uh, um, fluid in terms of, advice to you would be, um, just because something works for someone else doesn't mean that it will work for you.
00:41:15.771 --> 00:41:17.510
There's no right way of doing it.
00:41:18.170 --> 00:41:23.541
only right way would be to follow what you feel works for you.
00:41:24.418 --> 00:41:26.128
There's not one hack that works for
00:41:26.353 --> 00:41:27.583
yeah, yeah.
00:41:28.003 --> 00:41:29.742
Dude, it, I really.
00:41:30.358 --> 00:41:44.068
Beautiful answer because if you look at E everybody that is, you know, achieving the goals that you might want to have, let's say touring, you know, has built the business, and then you look at what's the path that they took to get there.
00:41:44.757 --> 00:41:49.708
There's 500 different paths and so you know your path.
00:41:49.858 --> 00:41:52.737
I think a lot of people are looking at, they're looking for.
00:41:53.172 --> 00:41:54.523
What's the answer, right?
00:41:54.523 --> 00:41:55.663
What's the formula?
00:41:55.693 --> 00:41:56.472
How do you do it?
00:41:56.472 --> 00:41:58.722
What are the, what's the recipe for success?
00:41:59.202 --> 00:42:08.112
And I just think you completely nailed it, and it's a great reminder for me as a coach, because that's how I was trained as a coach initially, was that we don't give answers.
00:42:08.112 --> 00:42:09.103
We just ask questions.
00:42:09.103 --> 00:42:10.813
You have all the answers inside of you.
00:42:10.813 --> 00:42:15.643
My job is just to hold space, probably like your therapist is just, they're just asking you questions.
00:42:15.688 --> 00:42:17.217
What, what's your truth?
00:42:17.487 --> 00:42:18.507
What's alive in you?
00:42:18.507 --> 00:42:19.887
What's real for you?
00:42:20.157 --> 00:42:23.887
How do we draw that out of people rather than, giving all the answers.
00:42:23.887 --> 00:42:28.297
So, really good reminder for me,'cause I've kind of lost touch with that a little bit.
00:42:28.297 --> 00:42:32.708
I have started creating some playbooks and formulas and, you know, this is what works.
00:42:32.737 --> 00:42:35.197
But like you said, it might work for you, it might not.
00:42:35.288 --> 00:42:37.208
Every, you know, there's no one right answer.
00:42:37.838 --> 00:42:40.657
that, that's, that's part of that, uh, what you're talking about.
00:42:40.657 --> 00:42:43.628
Like, you know, you've done your concessions, you wanted to grow.
00:42:44.347 --> 00:42:45.338
Your socials too.
00:42:45.367 --> 00:43:01.117
And then, you know, sometimes that's about playing the game a little bit, And that's sometimes me making a song that, and I feel like, oh, maybe we should, uh, maybe it's a good idea to make a dance record and not an ambient record right now, because I want to go on tour next year.
00:43:01.117 --> 00:43:01.717
You know, like,
00:43:02.677 --> 00:43:02.978
Yeah.
00:43:03.097 --> 00:43:12.608
a, I think what we're talking about, if I can like add something to my advice, it would be to, if you're an artist and, and a musician.
00:43:13.447 --> 00:43:18.637
sure that your relationship with music is solid.
00:43:19.373 --> 00:43:19.882
Hmm.
00:43:20.648 --> 00:43:29.438
the music industry thing, you know, you can get the advice and the tricks and the, and the what to do on TikTok and all that stuff.
00:43:29.438 --> 00:43:34.297
That's, but that's not really part of the music,
00:43:34.882 --> 00:43:35.302
Yeah.
00:43:35.407 --> 00:43:36.217
music world,
00:43:36.773 --> 00:43:37.132
Yeah.
00:43:37.507 --> 00:43:38.768
And I think if you stay.
00:43:39.458 --> 00:43:55.507
At least at you, you know, your relationship to music and what it means to you and what's important to you when it comes to true music and art, then you might be able to navigate, um, the music industry with a little bit more peace of mind.
00:43:56.182 --> 00:43:56.483
Yeah.
00:43:56.648 --> 00:43:56.708
Um.
00:43:57.262 --> 00:43:57.592
Yeah.
00:43:57.862 --> 00:44:01.612
Thousand percent because the music has to come first.
00:44:02.438 --> 00:44:03.458
It doesn't have to.
00:44:03.998 --> 00:44:17.081
I would prefer if it does, I think this is, if you wanna be the an artist versus just being a producer slash dj, if we wanna look at it from business terms, create the product first, and then go learn how to market it and sell it.
00:44:17.141 --> 00:44:25.090
But you gotta make the thing first and make that thing, you know, from a place of, uh, I don't wanna say isolation.
00:44:25.721 --> 00:44:29.800
But from a place of looking inward, rather than looking so much outward.
00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:40.780
'cause the other, the other way is looking at what's happening, what's happening in the industry, and then trying to create your, you know, product for lack of a better term.
00:44:41.110 --> 00:44:42.161
From there.
00:44:42.701 --> 00:44:44.561
Again, neither is right or wrong that.
00:44:45.085 --> 00:44:46.646
Can work and it does work.
00:44:46.646 --> 00:44:47.815
There is a formula.
00:44:47.965 --> 00:44:52.286
Also, AI can fucking do it for you now, so good luck with that, right?
00:44:52.376 --> 00:45:00.536
But, but I think the path that we're talking about really as an artist, right, make the, make the music first.
00:45:00.596 --> 00:45:04.255
Make the music from your own taste, your own self-expression.
00:45:05.246 --> 00:45:10.436
And then figure out where it fits in, then figure out, you know, how do you build a brand around it in the marketing.
00:45:10.436 --> 00:45:19.681
But if all of that's coming first, it's gonna, it's gonna affect the creative process and I think probably be a little bit less fun, you know.
00:45:20.065 --> 00:45:21.175
well, and that's the thing.
00:45:21.175 --> 00:45:22.226
Some people can do that.
00:45:22.226 --> 00:45:30.686
Some people can, uh, let's, let's be honest, some, I think there's.
00:45:31.090 --> 00:45:36.280
Artists out there that are more businessmen than than artists, and that's
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:36.655
Oh yeah.
00:45:36.971 --> 00:45:41.590
That's, that's, that's the whole, that's the painful part
00:45:42.826 --> 00:45:42.905
Hmm.
00:45:42.911 --> 00:45:44.860
for, for a lot of artists, I think.
00:45:45.101 --> 00:45:45.190
I
00:45:45.275 --> 00:45:45.695
Mm-hmm.
00:45:45.971 --> 00:45:56.951
part for a lot of artists is to see that people that are really good at, at marketing and, and building a, a company and building a brand sometimes also get to really.
00:46:00.251 --> 00:46:02.081
Be in the spotlight'cause of
00:46:02.170 --> 00:46:02.800
Yeah.
00:46:04.126 --> 00:46:04.416
Yeah.
00:46:05.951 --> 00:46:27.070
I think what I'm really trying to say is, um, what I, I agree with everything you said about the music comes first, but you do have to, to ask yourself the question, do I want to be part of the music industry?
00:46:28.061 --> 00:46:29.170
You know, that's a good question.
00:46:29.170 --> 00:46:32.411
Do I want to pay the bills with music?
00:46:32.411 --> 00:46:35.231
Do I want to live off of my art?
00:46:35.831 --> 00:46:42.340
And if that's, so then there's things you could do that would help with that.
00:46:42.641 --> 00:46:43.030
You know,
00:46:43.715 --> 00:46:45.425
It's such an interesting dance.
00:46:45.815 --> 00:46:47.016
It's such an interesting dance.
00:46:47.045 --> 00:46:52.445
'cause it does get, it does get to be both, as we said in the beginning, if you want to.
00:46:53.706 --> 00:46:57.965
Have a business, have a successful business in the music industry.
00:46:57.965 --> 00:46:59.346
You get to be a business owner.
00:46:59.795 --> 00:47:09.456
You also get to really understand how the business works and understand all the ins and outs of the business and understand branding and marketing and, and, and all of that.
00:47:09.965 --> 00:47:19.661
Um, so it's a really interesting balance of how to lead with authenticity and, um, yeah, authentic.
00:47:20.331 --> 00:47:22.971
Creativity while also.
00:47:23.391 --> 00:47:25.161
You know, being really good at the business.
00:47:25.246 --> 00:47:31.340
I, I, I think you said something a moment ago about, you know, there are these guys and, and yeah, let's be honest, let's be real.
00:47:31.340 --> 00:47:46.190
There are artists out there, huge, big headlining artists where their job is now to run a multimillion dollar touring business with 50 people on their team, and they're not spending eight hours a day making music anymore.
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:50.420
You know, they have other people that are helping them with that, and it's this whole machine.
00:47:51.025 --> 00:47:52.436
Welcome to the music business.
00:47:52.465 --> 00:47:53.936
Not even 2025, but,
00:47:54.050 --> 00:47:54.260
just,
00:47:54.385 --> 00:47:54.686
that's,
00:47:54.831 --> 00:47:55.251
real.
00:47:55.766 --> 00:47:56.096
yeah,
00:47:56.121 --> 00:47:56.331
real.
00:47:56.331 --> 00:47:57.650
They don't make the music anymore.
00:47:57.835 --> 00:47:58.572
yeah, yeah.
00:47:58.590 --> 00:47:59.695
And, and, and, because,
00:47:59.960 --> 00:48:00.050
but.
00:48:00.536 --> 00:48:01.585
yeah, but it's true.
00:48:01.585 --> 00:48:01.945
And that,
00:48:02.630 --> 00:48:02.840
it's
00:48:02.996 --> 00:48:06.085
and the thing is, KA Perry doesn't produce her music either.
00:48:06.085 --> 00:48:08.036
Pop artists aren't doing it, you know what I mean?
00:48:08.036 --> 00:48:11.516
And, and now EDM has become pop in that sense.
00:48:11.516 --> 00:48:13.856
And it's following a bit of this, this, you know.
00:48:14.885 --> 00:48:18.065
Reality of how the music business works in some of these other areas.
00:48:18.065 --> 00:48:25.115
So, you know, being an artist is more about, yeah, being the face, being the dj, and running the business.
00:48:25.115 --> 00:48:28.925
And what I would say is cool, like if that's what you want for your life.
00:48:30.050 --> 00:48:30.621
Awesome.
00:48:30.891 --> 00:48:31.431
Do it.
00:48:31.431 --> 00:48:33.141
You have been called.
00:48:33.831 --> 00:48:35.331
Yeah, yeah,
00:48:35.501 --> 00:48:36.400
to music is different,
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:37.371
yeah.
00:48:37.581 --> 00:48:43.221
And, and you've, you've been called to make music, express your feelings.
00:48:43.221 --> 00:48:43.581
Right?
00:48:43.581 --> 00:48:45.920
It's like you, as you said, you can't not do that.
00:48:47.210 --> 00:48:47.960
You, I love it, dude.
00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:48.411
I love it.
00:48:48.411 --> 00:48:50.240
And none of it's wrong.
00:48:50.271 --> 00:48:51.411
None of it's right or wrong.
00:48:51.411 --> 00:48:53.121
We all get to have our own place.
00:48:53.121 --> 00:48:54.440
I've found this weird.
00:48:54.811 --> 00:48:59.130
This weird little space in the music industry where I get to be a coach.
00:48:59.610 --> 00:49:06.240
Didn't plan on that, but following, you know, similarly following my own passion, my own creativity and inspiration.
00:49:06.451 --> 00:49:10.380
And at one point realizing like, well damn, if I wanna like actually have this be a business.
00:49:11.115 --> 00:49:12.315
I do get to do the marketing.
00:49:12.315 --> 00:49:21.255
I do get to like, you know, learn certain parts of the business, which maybe it's not as fun, but, you know, we're all, we're all figuring out our, our place in it.
00:49:21.436 --> 00:49:24.885
And, um, I think finding what, what feels true for you is important.
00:49:25.715 --> 00:49:30.365
so you, so you know, you made a decision to, okay, let's do the marketing, let's do this,
00:49:30.826 --> 00:49:31.215
Yeah.
00:49:31.686 --> 00:49:37.206
but, but, but your true passion would be still there if the cameras were off.
00:49:37.206 --> 00:49:37.476
Right?
00:49:37.505 --> 00:49:37.775
If you're
00:49:38.175 --> 00:49:38.596
Oh yeah.
00:49:39.516 --> 00:49:48.876
I would prefer them to be, yeah, I would, I I would love to just coach all day, give me five clients a day and, and let me fucking rip in and Oh yeah, I would love that.
00:49:48.876 --> 00:49:55.085
But in order for me to get those clients, I get to put myself out there and let people know that I exist.
00:49:55.235 --> 00:50:04.416
You know, similarly to you music, it's like you would love to just make music all day, but if you want to have people hear it and come to your shows, you gotta put it out there, right?
00:50:04.445 --> 00:50:05.945
Come, comes with the territory.
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:08.271
concept of this.
00:50:08.271 --> 00:50:10.416
This explains my concept of, you know, you've got the.
00:50:11.121 --> 00:50:13.041
The music or the art or the passion.
00:50:13.626 --> 00:50:13.956
Yeah.
00:50:14.210 --> 00:50:14.840
with passion.
00:50:15.456 --> 00:50:15.755
Yeah,
00:50:15.771 --> 00:50:18.141
And then you've got the, the business side of things.
00:50:18.351 --> 00:50:18.621
And
00:50:18.666 --> 00:50:19.115
totally.
00:50:20.121 --> 00:50:21.201
and that is a choice.
00:50:21.231 --> 00:50:24.260
If you want to make a living off of your passion, then
00:50:24.545 --> 00:50:24.965
Yeah.
00:50:25.190 --> 00:50:25.521
you have to
00:50:25.536 --> 00:50:25.896
Yeah.
00:50:26.090 --> 00:50:26.960
Uh, there's
00:50:27.186 --> 00:50:27.485
You know something.
00:50:27.590 --> 00:50:36.440
of course cases where that writers, there's wild cards where some people just really only do whatever the fuck they want and they have a viral moment or,
00:50:36.681 --> 00:50:37.385
Yeah, yeah,
00:50:37.670 --> 00:50:37.971
uh,
00:50:38.016 --> 00:50:39.215
yeah, for sure.
00:50:40.235 --> 00:50:49.445
You know something, one of my coaches told me early on when I was just starting to kind of build my coaching business was he was like, look, if you,'cause for me, this is a calling too.
00:50:49.835 --> 00:50:54.065
I honestly, I would rather go get a tech job here in Austin.
00:50:54.440 --> 00:51:02.030
And make, you know, 300 grand a year selling fucking software and just like have a mindless, simple, easy job.
00:51:02.240 --> 00:51:03.621
I've been called to do this shit.
00:51:03.650 --> 00:51:08.661
I've tried to walk away multiple times and God, the universe has said, no motherfucker.
00:51:08.661 --> 00:51:10.521
Get back there and serve these people.
00:51:10.581 --> 00:51:23.960
And what this, what my coach told me early on was like, look, if this really is your calling, if you're actually really about the service that this is providing, and you feel in your heart and soul that this is what you're supposed to be doing, then.
00:51:24.286 --> 00:51:25.681
You'll be willing to do.
00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:29.780
The other hard stuff that comes along with it, right?
00:51:29.780 --> 00:51:37.340
Like, you'll be willing to go work the job at Starbucks while you're building your coaching business because you're actually fucking about it.
00:51:37.460 --> 00:51:37.791
Right?
00:51:37.791 --> 00:51:40.130
And I think similarly, as an artist, the same thing.
00:51:40.130 --> 00:51:40.581
The passion.
00:51:40.581 --> 00:51:51.621
Like, look, if you really love it, you'll be willing to, you know, do the business stuff that maybe sucks, but it's all there to support the dream, the vision, the passion, the creativity, right?
00:51:51.771 --> 00:51:52.161
So,
00:51:52.490 --> 00:51:52.820
is not,
00:51:52.820 --> 00:51:53.150
yeah.
00:51:53.271 --> 00:51:53.570
is not a choice.
00:51:54.561 --> 00:51:55.161
You would say the
00:51:55.161 --> 00:51:55.581
Yeah.
00:51:55.610 --> 00:51:56.331
not a choice.
00:51:56.795 --> 00:51:57.085
Yeah.
00:51:57.291 --> 00:51:59.510
you doing, you want you wanting to do this.
00:51:59.960 --> 00:52:01.190
That's not a choice.
00:52:01.340 --> 00:52:01.731
That's
00:52:01.786 --> 00:52:03.365
yeah, yeah.
00:52:03.561 --> 00:52:06.920
a, it's a very interesting thing to talk about the calling.
00:52:07.971 --> 00:52:12.710
'cause that's a, I feel like people don't really realize that if, if,
00:52:12.806 --> 00:52:12.925
Hmm.
00:52:13.490 --> 00:52:18.621
if you just keep giving, getting back to it, coming back to it, if you wake up every time still thinking about it,
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:20.090
Yeah.
00:52:20.420 --> 00:52:20.780
there.
00:52:21.231 --> 00:52:22.851
And, and for me that was music.
00:52:23.601 --> 00:52:23.840
Hmm.
00:52:25.025 --> 00:52:44.045
like I, I had a friend in high school and, uh, he, um, was very talented, probably more talented than, than, like, way better producing music and, and his instrument than I was, he, didn't feel called to
00:52:44.465 --> 00:52:44.885
Mm-hmm.
00:52:44.976 --> 00:52:46.206
that for the rest of his life.
00:52:46.851 --> 00:52:47.150
Yeah.
00:52:47.496 --> 00:52:48.726
and he's very happy right now.
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:49.911
Yeah.
00:52:50.166 --> 00:52:51.545
there was, there was, from the
00:52:51.675 --> 00:52:51.795
I.
00:52:51.815 --> 00:52:57.666
picked up a guitar, was like, you know, was like, this is it.
00:53:00.530 --> 00:53:01.311
Yeah.
00:53:01.356 --> 00:53:02.405
a guitar player too, right?
00:53:03.166 --> 00:53:03.530
I am, I am.
00:53:04.070 --> 00:53:04.610
Well, yeah.
00:53:04.610 --> 00:53:06.981
I just, I just played my very first show.
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:09.021
Uh, shout out Bella Renee.
00:53:09.021 --> 00:53:10.490
I am not sure if you're familiar with her.
00:53:10.490 --> 00:53:13.490
She's like a, a singer, kind of the drum and bass world.
00:53:13.490 --> 00:53:19.641
But yeah, she just, I, I just sit here in my, in the corner of my room and I just, you know, I don't really claim to be an artist.
00:53:19.641 --> 00:53:21.621
I just jam metal riffs just for fun.
00:53:21.951 --> 00:53:22.971
And she was like, yo.
00:53:23.016 --> 00:53:26.045
Come get on stage with me and play a couple songs.
00:53:26.045 --> 00:53:30.606
And so I just had my first taste of playing live and now I'm like, oh shit, I wanna get back out there.
00:53:30.606 --> 00:53:31.865
I got, now I got the bug.
00:53:31.865 --> 00:53:34.085
Now I'm like, okay, let's, let's do that again.
00:53:34.085 --> 00:53:34.865
That was fun.
00:53:34.925 --> 00:53:36.126
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:37.206 --> 00:53:42.246
Um, I wanna ask you this,'cause you know, I, I just shared, like, I've definitely, it's such an interesting dance of.
00:53:42.710 --> 00:53:52.550
Passion and business and all the, you know, the stress and pressure that comes with that balancing, you know, just trying to find that balance in that dance.
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:56.481
Like I've definitely had a couple moments where I was just like, ah, fuck this.
00:53:56.481 --> 00:53:57.050
I'm over it.
00:53:57.050 --> 00:53:58.251
I'm ready to walk away.
00:53:58.460 --> 00:54:02.931
Have you ever reached that point where you were ready to just step out and be done?
00:54:05.905 --> 00:54:10.166
Yes, uh, it was right, right after the pandemic.
00:54:11.306 --> 00:54:17.365
Um, I was about to, uh, part ways with my management.
00:54:19.795 --> 00:54:25.076
I was on tour the first, I think the borders just opened up again, and everyone.
00:54:25.431 --> 00:54:29.331
The COVID just ended officially while everyone was still masked.
00:54:30.010 --> 00:54:30.231
Hmm.
00:54:30.231 --> 00:54:39.951
was touring and the second day off tour, one of my main guys, uh, got COVID and everything.
00:54:39.951 --> 00:54:53.601
Just kind of the whole tour we were just about to do, just kind of got, I just got so close to like, oh, you know, let's just call it off because we're never gonna get through this three months of touring tests every day.
00:54:54.860 --> 00:54:58.911
mask, meet and greets every day to pay for the costs.
00:54:59.001 --> 00:54:59.331
You know,
00:54:59.615 --> 00:55:02.615
You already put all that money up into the tour in advance.
00:55:03.201 --> 00:55:03.471
Like,
00:55:03.485 --> 00:55:04.085
Yeah.
00:55:04.251 --> 00:55:04.610
and greets.
00:55:04.610 --> 00:55:11.300
Like, and, and even though I love, I love meeting the fans and I, the, the people that support and listen to my music, I don't like calling them fans.
00:55:11.300 --> 00:55:20.271
I, I always like to call them listeners or, or, um, they, I love, I love meeting them, but.
00:55:20.601 --> 00:55:22.641
A hundred people a day with masks on
00:55:23.346 --> 00:55:23.916
Oh man.
00:55:24.516 --> 00:55:24.981
That's a lot.
00:55:25.130 --> 00:55:29.601
so, I was just kind of hoping that I would not get COVID every day.
00:55:29.601 --> 00:55:37.161
And you know, one of my most important crew members got COVID, got hit with COVID and I was just like, you know what?
00:55:38.331 --> 00:55:40.940
I don't, this is not giving me any fulfillment.
00:55:40.940 --> 00:55:42.231
It's just stress at this point.
00:55:42.231 --> 00:55:43.161
It's only stress.
00:55:44.121 --> 00:55:47.300
And uh, we pulled through, you know, at
00:55:47.300 --> 00:55:47.380
Hmm.
00:55:49.070 --> 00:55:49.431
and.
00:55:50.195 --> 00:55:55.806
some point the, we had to, I had to carry the, the flight push to flight cases.
00:55:56.255 --> 00:56:03.576
You know, we had a show in San Diego and, uh, everything was so dis dislocated.
00:56:04.056 --> 00:56:09.365
I had to just like travel with two other guys carrying all the cases, like what, 10 cases.
00:56:09.666 --> 00:56:14.135
I was pushing the cases and I was like, that also gave me some kind of strength.
00:56:14.135 --> 00:56:15.365
I was like, you know what?
00:56:15.635 --> 00:56:16.626
Fucking go.
00:56:16.925 --> 00:56:17.286
And,
00:56:19.010 --> 00:56:19.251
Yeah.
00:56:19.251 --> 00:56:24.530
What, what kept you going when you kind of reached that, you know, you get to that edge almost to that breaking point.
00:56:24.530 --> 00:56:27.170
Like what, what kept you going in those?
00:56:27.471 --> 00:56:28.266
That tough moment?
00:56:30.755 --> 00:56:31.295
I don't know.
00:56:32.016 --> 00:56:41.356
I think, I think that's that calling, that's what, what, what, that's how, you know, I think the, an, the question to ask yourself is like, would you be.
00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:44.871
Making songs or making music.
00:56:46.221 --> 00:56:54.621
If only five people were listening, you know, or only one person would be listening, would you still do it?
00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:56.541
And for me, the answer is yes.
00:56:57.231 --> 00:56:59.030
know, I, I love it.
00:56:59.510 --> 00:57:02.990
I love, it's, it's not, it's mostly an internal process for me.
00:57:02.990 --> 00:57:05.061
The music and the, the journey.
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:11.130
Um, I would definitely work at Starbucks if I have to, you know.
00:57:11.690 --> 00:57:16.550
I, I would definitely work at Starbucks or a coffee shop, and on the side I would do music.
00:57:17.210 --> 00:57:18.710
I'm, I'm never gonna quit this.
00:57:18.951 --> 00:57:20.876
I love doing this, you know,
00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:23.061
Damn well.
00:57:23.601 --> 00:57:36.920
That is an epic mic drop moment to end this episode on that, I, I, I really, I had a handful of bullet points and questions and things I was thinking about asking.
00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:40.581
I didn't look at one of them throughout this entire chat.
00:57:40.670 --> 00:57:47.630
Uh, I really, really love your mindset and your perspective and the passion that you have for this.
00:57:47.871 --> 00:57:49.815
And again, just really want to, yeah, man, just celebrate.
00:57:50.465 --> 00:57:56.585
You really pursuing the true hero's journey of being an artist.
00:57:56.615 --> 00:58:09.846
It's incredibly inspiring, and I thank you so much for taking the time to, to share some of your energy with us and, and, uh, not the fans, but the audience, the Headliner Mindset community.
00:58:10.295 --> 00:58:11.556
Shout out to all of you for listening.
00:58:11.556 --> 00:58:15.576
I love you guys and, um, San thank you so much for coming on today.
00:58:16.581 --> 00:58:24.740
Thank you very much for having me, and I just wanna say I'm not the hero, everyone working that coffee shop job with a thousand or like 500 monthly listeners.
00:58:25.431 --> 00:58:26.510
You guys are heroes to me.
00:58:26.510 --> 00:58:29.240
I, I'm listening to you like, that's the stuff I love.
00:58:29.541 --> 00:58:31.820
So keep grinding.