A Conversation About Forgiveness That Changes Families with Peter Anderson LMFT

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I have got a great surprise for you today, so I'd love you to listen in and leave comments.
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You are listening to Edge Drinking, your answers to life, relationships, and daily living.
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All right, Peter, thank you for being here.
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I uh we've never talked before, and my we've only seen each other on TikTok, I imagine.
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Yeah.
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So it's great to have you here and be able to have a conversation with you.
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And I know that it would be easy to have conversations around estrangements and kind of the no whole no contact world.
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And I'm not super interested in that.
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I'm more I'm much more interested into hearing how you came into the world of therapy.
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And I I honestly believe that therapists have very unique stories usually that that lead them to where they're helping others.
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And and so that's that is definitely what I'm curious about.
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And so with that, can you just kind of introduce yourself to the general public?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Peter Anderson.
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I'm an LMFT here in right outside Boston, actually, and it's about 17 miles away.
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Hopefully I'm I'm not freezing on you.
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So uh yeah, I'm I I grew up in Illinois and then after right outside Chicago, and then I moved to North Carolina.
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In North Carolina, I was actually an acting major at a school called North Carolina School of the Arts.
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Went there for a year.
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That's where so that's like in a college level thing major.
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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North Carolina School of the Arts got yeah, I was being taught by Robin Williams and Kevin Klein's teacher.
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Heard a lot of a lot of fun stories about Williams.
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Actually, I get I was actually in the movie Patch Adams only as like a blob in the background.
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I got to meet Robin Williams.
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That was pretty cool.
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Okay.
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So yeah, so uh and and let's see, I I then left there, fell into fell into a pretty significant depression, did not do well in school.
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Fell into a huge depression because I wasn't invited back to the acting school because I was kind of on my own.
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I was kind of introverted and not introverted, but just I was kind of in isolation.
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I was very isolated, I suppose.
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I was gonna say, how how would you be in how could you be an acting school?
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It's true.
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I call myself.
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I guess it exists.
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It probably does exist.
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I think, yeah, I think I wasn't quite ready for it.
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And they had said politely, hey, we need you to leave because you know you're not really connecting with the I was like, okay, film this huge depression because that was my life, that was my whole career, or I thought it would be.
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And then I lived with my brother Chris in New Orleans for about a summer.
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This is way back in the summer of '98.
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And then moved back to live with my dad and mom for about three years.
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I did some carpentry construction.
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And I was like sweeping floors one day.
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And I was like, okay, I gotta go back to I gotta go back to college.
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And so I was 20, 25, 26, and went back to school at Appalachian State University, and then graduated with a double in let's see, at industrial technology with a double minor in philosophy and math.
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And then I went to seminary.
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I I immediately went to seminary in 2006.
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So I was about 29 then.
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And I was can I interrupt?
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Yeah, please, yeah, please, yeah, absolutely.
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When you think about so my degree, my undergrad degree was in international relations, and I okay always tell people it was the most worthless degree.
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Okay, because because I I'm gonna travel overseas and work at a state department or something, and then I meet my wife and she doesn't want to travel, and so then it just kind of ruined that.
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So when you say industrial, what was it?
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Industrial industrial technology with an emphasis of construction management.
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So that's really so then.
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Well, kind of.
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I mean, I thought I was gonna do like more, I thought I was gonna like own, not own, but like get into environmental engineering and stuff, and and maybe like what's kind of cool about that degree is like if the you know shit hits the fan.
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I don't know if I can if that's if uh you know I could then maybe I don't know, use it one day to just build houses or something.
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But when the zombie when the zombies are yeah, when the zombies come over, which might happen.
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If AI like takes over our career, I could maybe take over, you know.
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Right.
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Okay.
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Well, so okay, so then there's that.
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And then how do you go into ministry?
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Well, yeah, I had become a Christian at the time.
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Let's see, I thought I was gonna be uh this is right after acting school, and then I thought I was gonna like do some type of work.
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I was really kind of interested in getting possibly a PhD.
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And I thought I was gonna, I thought I was gonna work maybe for a church, maybe a pastor.
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But after getting my master's of divinity, I was like, I am not called to be a pastor.
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I don't, you know, I worked for a church.
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I think I I never got I I would meet with guys in my seminary and they would struggle with various issues that you could probably imagine.
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And I'm like pornography.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Right.
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So yeah, that's pretty common.
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Yeah, good lord.
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Right.
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And I I love talking to guys that were vulnerable with me.
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And whenever I would I would meet with like pastors, they would always say, I never felt like I never feel like people would come to me that they can come to me with their real struggles.
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And I could say that, like even looking back, I I don't think I ever really, I think I only once or twice would really I was I was going through my own stuff.
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I felt comfortable confessing, like you know, I guess talking to somebody because I always felt kind of judged, you know, like I wasn't I I wasn't quote holy enough or something.
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Yeah, and anyway, long story short, after my MDiv, I just I was looking at getting a doctorate at Boston College in patristics of all things, but the woman who is supposed to uh that I was supposed to say, I have no idea what patristics are.
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Oh, it's like early, early church fathers, basically.
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Yeah, it's like early I was interested in before 1500?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Uh I was actually interested in dispensational Christianity, it how it influenced the church to be more of a separate entity to the world.
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I was really fascinated.
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I still am kind of fascinated with that because Christianity for the past 150 years has really been kind of like had built its own little Christian coffee shops and Christian sports programs.
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And that's really fascinating.
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So I was interested in what influenced that.
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But she wasn't she actually wasn't invited to the admissions board.
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There was some weird political stuff going on, not politics like Republican, Democrat, just some turmoil.
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So I didn't I wasn't invited because she wasn't in, she didn't advocate for me.
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So I walked into uh I walked to and I met uh with uh one of the teachers who I had taken class with because I took a listening class and she said, Peter, you're actually pretty good at listening, people.
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I'm like, Oh, it's like the first time a teacher at that school had actually said, Peter, you're good at this.
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And so I was like, Oh, okay, cool.
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So I was like, and they invited me right then and there.
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It was actually pretty awesome because it was in the summer.
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I was doing construction again.
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I didn't know what I was gonna do.
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Just finished an MDiv, and then I got invited to May M FT, and it was the best decision I ever made, honestly, because I fell in love with it a whole lot.
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I I stayed in the same school, and the school itself actually had a had a program on site, not a program, but a clinic on site, and I got to meet people in Jackson, Mississippi, all through like poor, richer, like everybody in the socioeconomic spectrum.
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And yeah, man, it was awesome.
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And I got too much.
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So that was Appala Appalachia.
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No, that was Reform Theological Seminary.
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That was a different that's where I got my grad school training.
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Okay, yeah.
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And I did that pretty fast, and then I moved to Boston area and then started working for a clinic.
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And then I at the time started another degree program in Hebrew because I was fascinated with Hebrew.
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So yeah, finished that.
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Okay, yeah.
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So I've always been fascinated with like language and and religion and the influx of philosophy, and um and then after a few years after that, I started my private practice in 20 2014 because I was burned out in clinic clinic work, and then I was just yeah, I was just completely burned out with that.
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So okay, and now and now you're supposed to say, and now I'm taking Greek, and so I can under No, I was gonna say I did take Greek, but I I I like Hebrew better.
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So yeah, right.
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Wow.
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So do you retain do you retain that still?
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Like I do.
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I still try to read a few things a day.
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I yeah, we took, yeah, I got I I had a great opportunity up here.
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I I took classes at Harvard and I learned I yeah, we did Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Ugaritic, Akkadian.
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I was a I I did a little bit of work at yeah, the Semitic Museum over here.
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And I was really interested in the influx of uh psychological criticism in the book of Job, understanding trauma through the book of Job.
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That I wish that still kind of fascinates me.
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So I I love old, I love, I love old books, stoicism, Taoism, you know, just uh old philosophies and I feel like that's maybe missing in the therapy world because a lot of my clients are very disconnected from the what I would call, you know, archetypes of the past.
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And right.
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Not that I use my clients, my clinic sessions to talk about those things too much, but that's kind of what I'm saying.
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I mean, I don't know.
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I stoicism, I haven't done a lot of read on stoicism, but I I absolutely love the idea that we can only be a control of ourselves and what other people say about us.
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And I've said this before in posts like people can say all the kinds of things that they want about me personally, but they don't know me, and I can't control that.
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So I I talk to clients about that as well, and I think stoicism is a great thing to help with anxiety often.
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Oh yeah, yeah.
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But I mean, it's it's not an easy, oh, I'll just start thinking this way, and then things will change.
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Yeah, sure.
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So then do you do so?
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You went to Reformed Theological Seminary.
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I immediately start thinking, oh, do you have plaid flannel shirts and smoked cigars?
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I do, I actually used to all the time, but now I'm probably leaning more Catholic, honestly.
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I'm I'm I'm kind of fascinated.
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I'm not a Catholic myself, but I go to an Anglican church now.
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I'm I'm very fat, I really love like the liturgy.
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I love old, old stuff.
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Yeah.
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But no, I do.
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Yeah, I guess I I still I still have a cigar and a and a pipe around here somewhere.
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I'm more into pipes.
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Well, you're missing the beard.
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You're missing the missing the beard.
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It's too patchy, yeah.
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It's too much.
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Well, so I so I grew up evangelical, right?
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So my the church I grew up in was like a conservative Baptist church, and then I I go to like a fellowship Bible fellowship church now because everyone hates the Baptists, so they I call them an undercover Baptist church, but my son definitely is into the liturgy.
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Like I've I'm finding younger aged people seem to like that whole liturgy thing much more than my age, Gen X age of people.
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And I don't know why.
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I I I there's probably a reason.
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Do you I mean, do you have insight on that?
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I know for me, I was kind of good just growing weary of like you know, the modern Christian music.
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I mean, I I also work as a psych triage in a hospital, and I I think I was just longing for something that has a has a lot more depth, that has some type of I think that's what I I know I agree with you.
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I think a lot of people are are looking at Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism or Anglicanism.
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I think because yeah, they're trying to find voices of the church that have been around for thousands of years, I think.
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And uh so it's not just me and my Bible arguing with somebody, it's like what are the what do the fathers and mothers say before us and how do they struggle with some of this stuff?
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And I find that a lot more refreshing, I think, and freeing.
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Yeah, that's just me.
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Have you ever have you ever had the opportunity to go to the Vatican?
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And no, no, I did just recently go to Chicago.
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I did visit a Catholic church in Chicago to talk to one of the priests there.
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It was really it was it was the big one.
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It was the really went in, and you're just like, oh my gosh, this is I don't know.
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I have I've never been to Chicago, but if you can ever go to the Vatican and Rome, I highly encourage it, especially if you have an interest in kind of the the forefathers of Christianity and Catholicism.
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It's just yeah, it's pretty amazing to go to these hundreds and hundreds, maybe in some cases thousands of year old churches that have relics.
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I'm I think relics, even if it's not real, it seems cool to have like, oh, that's one of the the the thorns from the crown of thorns.
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And that's is it really yeah, I'm probably not just it just I know I have enough product.
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I still am, I'm still very much still Protestant though, too.
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Like, I can't I can't like kiss a statue of anyway, of Jesus or pray to.
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I'm not into yeah, I can't.
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I there's still a lot of things I I'm still protesting about, but is that is that an Anglican thing?
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I've I've seen it before.
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I've seen it like during Easter, they'll bring like a cross of Christ, and a lot of people will go like kiss the feet.
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Oh and I was with my very evangelical friend this last, and I'm like, I I don't think I could do that.
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Can you do it?
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And you're like, no, and it's like we stayed like so yeah.
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I my son dabbled in Catholicism at some point, and he I I think the downside of Protestantism is that it totally forgets about the thousand years before before Martin Luther showed up, and and so I I think it is fascinating that there's a whole you know a thousand years of forefathers and church fathers and and stuff with writings and things like that that I think Protestantism just kind of forgets existed.
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So I yeah, it's kind of interesting.
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So so then now you've had your own practice since 2014.
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And are you taking clients currently or you've yeah, a little bit, yeah.
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I I I've been doing more like you know, coaching on the side, but it's I would say I'm pretty full for the most part, you know.
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I my my wife wants me to not see so many people.
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I try to, I try to, I don't see a lot of evenings anymore.
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I have since I have three three little three kids under the age of 14.
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14, 11.
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Okay, yeah, he'll be 12 soon.
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And and then eight.
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So 14, 12, and 8.
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So I try to get home by six.
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Yeah, you know, okay, enjoy dinner.
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And usually, and so I don't know if you had the same experience.
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When I first started out, I would see like kind of anybody, but now that I've been in practice for a long, longer period of time, I don't have to take everybody that comes through my door.
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Like I can like really focus in speci on specific things.
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Is that kind of your experience?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like there's still like I I have a hard time with certain people.
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Like, I I I don't I I'm probably not gonna sit with in fact.
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I just turn some people down.
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I, you know, like if it's something like antisocial, like just no conscience, I'm not you know, I just or maybe like somebody that's really done a lot of abuse toward their wife, or you know, um, I have a hard time with that.
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I you know, I I think just addiction.
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I'm not I'm not really an addiction specialist, although I'm getting better at that.
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I I do I actually do specialize in sex addiction, so I do love meeting with a lot of people that specialize, you know, and that need help with that.
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Do you think so I appreciate you saying that because uh do you think of it as an actual addiction or impulse control?
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Yeah, thanks for saying that.
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Yeah, I it's so it's it's so easy.
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I think probably I think you're right, probably more impulse control.
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I mean, there's a I don't know the nuance, you might know this more than I do, the nuances of the debate.
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Like some people are against saying addiction, impulse control, but I I found acceptance commitment therapy to be highly effective for a lot of those, you know, a lot of people.
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It's definitely not a niche of mine, but I had a client yesterday that's talking about their partner having sex addiction.
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And and then we did get into that conversation where like when I think of an addiction, and maybe it's just my lack of information about it.
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When I think of an addiction, I think of oh, if you can't use the thing that you're addicted to, you'll have you'll potentially die, or you'll have withdrawal symptoms that might put you in the hospital.
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So heroin, for example, or alcohol or something like that.
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So if you can't masturbate because you looked at porn, right?
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.759
Are you going to die?
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:06.640
I know.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:13.839
No, no, and so maybe that's just my that's my night to take that's a good way to put it.
00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:14.880
Yeah, no, I love that.
00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:16.079
Yeah, that's pretty true.
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:17.839
Yeah, you're probably not gonna die.
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.680
You may you may like you know, scream a little bit, but I I'm sure you'll be okay in your heart.
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.279
So that's where and again, it's not I it's not my niche.
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:31.200
So I that's my kind of Neanderthal way of looking at it.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.000
Right.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:33.119
Yeah.
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:39.759
I think there's the argument for is because you know, I I I I know people that you know had SAA meetings.
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:44.640
I think their argument for it's like the it seems like the same processing the brain of an addiction.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:51.920
And I think that's I think that's where they like, you know, you go through when they say withdrawal, the all the like fake promises.
00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:56.799
Oh my gosh, I'll never you know meet with this person again, and I I feel so guilty.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.279
I think it's more like the behavior of the addiction.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.759
But I I I agree.
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.680
I think I think we need better nuance for that than just in the DSM.
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:06.799
DSM.
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.799
So it's not and so it's like I don't work in that realm.
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:13.599
So I that's my naive understanding of it.
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:21.440
So I'm always willing to like if someone has a better explanation of it, I'm always willing to like be open to them.
00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:32.160
So uh we've interacted, uh and I'm we've never interacted face to face, so I think we've interacted via direct message, and I am curious.
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:44.240
Like, you had messaged, you told me one time because I had asked what your experience about is around estrangement or and you had shared a story about your father and forgiveness.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.240
Yeah, and I'm wondering, would you be willing to kind of share that experience?
00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:54.960
And did that lead you to did that help lead you to the the marriage and family therapy?
00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:56.319
I think so.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:57.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:06.640
And and my dad's alive, and he's we have a close relationship now, but he was an alcoholic, and there was there was some real yeah, there it was not easy growing up in the 80s, you know.
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.240
There's yeah, it was very, very, very hard for me.
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.200
Um was he can I can I ask questions about it?
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:14.720
I sure yeah, absolutely.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:19.039
Yeah, was it more of like was he a happy drunk, a mean drunk?
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:20.960
No, yeah, very, yeah, very mean.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:28.400
You know, I I I remember, you know, just hearing, you know, abuse toward my mom and me, and a lot of lot, yeah.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:29.599
I remember that quite a bit.
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:37.119
And I I I spent a lot of yeah, I think I I then kind of got addicted to porn myself, uh, because dad was.
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:37.599
Yeah.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:39.839
And I kind of sought out a lot of girls.
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:43.440
I my my my escape actually was sex in in high school.
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.119
And I'd never really got into the substances that much.
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:53.359
And and so I I I had a lot of anger, a lot of anger toward him.
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.279
A lot of yeah, a lot of hate.
00:19:55.599 --> 00:20:07.839
And then I think uh my faith really helped me with that because I started seeing my own tendencies to do things like manipulate and you know, and treat girls like objects and you just sleep with them.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:14.799
And and I think I that was that was that when you say your faith helped you, that was in your 20s?
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.960
In my twenties, yeah, in my early 20s before I met my wife and everything.
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:36.880
I I think I I saw like a lot of my own tendencies to to I had so much anger toward him, but then I saw myself like treating girls and cheating on girlfriends and you know, just not being kind to them, you know, acting like I was kind, but then like doing stuff like that behind their back.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:41.039
And and I think it was like taking the log on my own eye, like who am I to judge?
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:52.400
And I then I started to forgive him, but it wasn't until like that helped a lot, but then about 10 years later, I think I still had like a lot of hurt inside that I didn't I I hadn't moved past.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:58.240
And I read Daniel Siegel's book, The Parenting from the Inside Out, and I I I was interested in my dad's story.
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:00.720
Like, how did you become who you were?
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:07.759
And in my my degree program, we were called to like do geneograms, which is like family patterns.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.359
And I just called my dad and I just like, dad, tell me who you were.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:16.319
And he talked to me about his own neglect and he talked to me that how what his attraction toward alcohol was.
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:20.240
And and I had this long conversation with him, and I just got off the phone, I just started crying.
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:24.079
And I was like, because I felt like I just I like I got my dad.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:31.920
Like I I instead of this transparent quote, I forgive you or hate you, it's like, okay, it's kind of like a breaking bad experience, you know.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.400
It's like, okay, I get Walter White now while he died.
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.319
So I I felt like I was able to just understand him.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:48.160
And and that was very freeing for me, and both as uh Lisa's later and I I I that really, really helped.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:22:00.799
And I I I saw the benefits of that, both as as a husband, but also as a dad, that I'm not just doing the opposite of my own father, but like I could I could understand him and forgive him and Yeah.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.880
And do you have siblings that kind of have that similar experience?
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.160
Older brother has estranged himself from the family.
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.279
Haven't spoken to him in close to eight years.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.559
He still holds on, probably to the most anger.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:21.359
My other siblings have we all have really, I would say, good relationships with dad, my father.
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:22.880
He's changed a lot.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.640
He's like taken a lot of accountability after my mom died of cancer.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.960
He kind of stepped up to the plate, started taking amends, asking.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:36.160
He didn't ever, I never felt like he sat us down and said, I please ask, you know, I ask you for forgiveness.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:37.119
I don't remember that.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.400
I remember him calling, and I could tell he was more remorseful.
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.000
And that helped.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.559
But I think it was more the work was really more on me.
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:49.119
You know, now he's he's unfortunately has dementia, but he's doing a lot better.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:54.799
He started, you know, he started doing, he started going to church and just becoming a kinder person.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:00.160
So he was very involved in my own kids' lives, and you know, they really loved him and still do.
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.400
You know, so it's like, yeah, I think that's so.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.480
Are you are are you able?
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:18.160
I mean, are you kind of saying that you didn't hear like, hey, I'm sorry for this, but it was a like a a change like a vague yeah, it's more of a more of a change behavior.
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:24.319
Although, you know, he still had a tendency to I think he thankfully gave up drinking, so that helped, you know.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.480
I tell you, alcohol, man.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:28.319
Yeah, it's I think it's the worst drug out there.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:28.799
I really do.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:30.799
I mean a lot of people say like cooking.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:32.640
I would agree with, I would agree with you.
00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:47.279
I mean, I even though I do like a beer with you, you know, but I still like I you know, not I I gotta, you know, I gotta anyway, but I would I yeah, it it's taken a it's taken a it took a while, it took a while, but it I think there was a lot of a lot of healing that that occurred.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:58.640
I mean, I I honestly think we could probably talk about stories of where couples would be completely fine if alcohol was not involved in a relationship.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:00.000
Oh gosh, yeah, yeah.
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:02.000
Because it's so destructive for sure.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:02.640
Oh yeah.
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:11.759
I've seen affairs, I've seen abuse, I've seen neglect I I uh I people still in jail to this day, uh you name it because right.
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:12.960
Oh yeah, for sure.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:13.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:18.880
Okay, I appreciate you sharing that because I I mean yeah that's part of your story.
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:30.160
And so how do you think that impacted you like in a way where it's like, oh, I can do this marriage and family therapy piece or yeah, yeah.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:36.720
I mean, I think I I I I think one of the things that helped, like, I am really comfortable with chaos.
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:38.559
I will say that because I grew up in a lot of it.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:49.039
So if I'm sitting with like a borderline patient, or maybe even a narcissistic, you know, patient, or somebody that's just like, you know, has a tendency to not tell me the whole truth.
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:50.799
I I I see a lot of bullshit.
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:51.359
Like I do.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:59.279
I think that gave me I'm I'm okay with like just just a whole world of shit, you know, and it's like I'm fine.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:00.640
Yeah, I'm like totally fine.
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:10.799
I think that I think in my past has actually been used as an advantage to like sit with families and they're just arguing and chaotic and all this like total confusion.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:22.799
And I'm just kind of sitting there and my heart heart rate is 65 beats a minute, and I'm drinking my coffee, and just like there's no I don't think I could have handled that if I had just grown up in just this stable, safe home.
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:23.680
I I don't know.
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:25.279
Maybe, maybe I maybe so.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:26.079
I mean, I don't know.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:47.839
Well, I mean it it is interesting because I I think that like I I consider myself lucky because I grew up in a fairly I would say stable and safe home, and I can I experience that as well, like people in front of me in chaos, and I view it as kind of outside of that bubble of chaos for myself.
00:25:48.160 --> 00:26:04.480
Um, but but then I think I've seen probably on social media now, but younger therapists who say, Well, I can't work with this kind of whatever because it reminds me too much of my mom or my dad or my own experience.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:05.440
Yeah.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:06.720
And I don't know.
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:11.200
I mean, I'm just I I don't have an answer for how to solve that.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:15.279
I just think I've seen that now more than any you do bring up a good point.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.480
I think we actually need the security to go back to the chaos.
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:26.160
I mean, I I had experienced security and then love, and especially in my marriage, and then later in my life had experienced a lot of that.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:28.799
And then I think my heart, my heart rate was good.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:29.759
You bring up a good point.
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:36.160
I think if I had never experienced security or love, I probably would have had a lot more counter-transference.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:37.920
So I wonder if there's a balance there.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.839
You know, I I I do think, you know, the secure bond is essential for our our growth.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:48.880
And my mom was that for me uh my whole life, and she was that secure person.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:58.319
Yeah, it it was pretty devastating when she died because she was this like safe, secure, very loving, kind of had your parents divorced or had they stayed together.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.079
No, yeah, they stayed together.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:05.440
So that yeah, so but yeah, I I I that's a good point.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:07.359
I wonder if like you need you need both.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.279
You need if you're gonna enter into that, I hope you have that as a foundation.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.079
And that's also like it certainly would be helpful.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:15.839
100%, yeah.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:27.279
And you yeah, and also I'm glad I exonerated and forgave because I think if I still was really angry, yeah, I think I probably just like some of those younger therapists, I would have been holding on to a lot of counter-transference.
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.640
I wonder.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:29.359
I don't know.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:31.200
Do you what do you think?
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:39.440
Again, I mean, I'm not again not wanting to talk specifically about estrangement, but this idea that what do you think for like your brother, for example?
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:41.359
He'll never see this, probably.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:42.079
Yeah, right.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:46.799
So I don't know if you could talk, give your opinions openly about it, but yeah.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:55.440
What do you think keeps him from like doing any kind of forgiveness and reconciling?
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.240
Well, substances haven't helped, you know.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.160
I think that's one thing I really, you know.
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:01.279
I hope he gives them all up.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.559
If he's hearing this, I love you.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.079
And you know, I hope one day you do.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.480
I really do love my brother, I really miss him a lot.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:08.880
He's one of the smartest person I ever met.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:15.359
You know, he uh was studying piano in uh the Chicago Infosymphony Orchestra at 14 years old.
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.240
And one day, one weekend, this is kind of a funny story.
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:24.160
He got he just got totally shit faced and he was in New Orleans, and he was like, I think I'm gonna study for the bar exam.
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:35.920
And he did, and he got second, he got number two in the state of Louisiana just like wow after just like completely getting yeah, messed up for the whole weekend and then just like study for like two hours.
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:42.960
But well, I think I think correct me if I'm wrong, I think Louisiana is one of those few states where you don't actually have to have a law degree.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:44.400
Yeah, you can just take the exam.
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:46.480
Right, yeah, you just passed the bar.
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:51.680
And he got second highest that year, and he studied for like four, like two or three hours over a weekend.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:57.440
And after he got had some fun in New Orleans, he's the funny So is he a lawyer?
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:01.359
No, no, he does he's not even you know he's even working.
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:06.559
I think he just he holds on to yeah, I don't know what has kept him all these years.
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.480
I have seen it hurt him.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:15.279
I really have blind him even because he's you know, just the the refusal to let go.
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:19.039
Okay, you know, and I I've seen that with clients, I've seen that with a lot of people.
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:21.359
Again, I don't I don't think anybody's obligated to.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:23.359
I think it has to be free.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:29.200
But I yeah, I'm I think the substances have really, really hurt.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.519
It's that's that's not done, that's not you know, that's only done harm.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:39.839
Okay, you know, but I I I love him, always will, but uh it's it's you know, he's he's just kind of cut himself off.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.799
He's doesn't want anything to do with any of us, really.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:30:09.839
Yeah, so I yeah, my s well 2021, my sister, I think, and if she ever sees this, I want to have a relationship with you, but I think my sister has borderline personality disorder, and so she she would often split the splitting process that happens with that, and so one time I just decided I'm done with this, and when you're ready to get help and have a relationship again, then let's have a relationship.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.559
But yeah, I'm in the wrong is what what I've heard.
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:17.200
So no, I think that's you kind of need to do that.
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:22.240
And I'm pretty sure Chris has, yeah, my brother, yeah, some real but I don't know.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:22.720
I don't know.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:31.200
I actually think I took the Lester course on personality disorders, and he said you have to be six months sober, and then we could diagnose you with a PD or not a PD.
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.920
And I don't think he's experienced six months of sobriety in a very, very long time.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:36.720
So I don't know.
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:38.720
Yeah, I don't, you know, not yeah.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:41.279
I just I wish that yeah, I wish him the best though.
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:42.160
But okay.
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:47.039
Now is your is your wife in any kind of mental health field?
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.440
No, no, she yeah, she's she's English, she was English major.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:52.880
She'd suffered with depression.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.880
She was, you know, when I first met her, but she takes medications, you wouldn't even think it.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:00.400
But her mom is in the her mom's a therapist, which is great.
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:03.119
And no, which I actually like that.
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:13.759
I come home and you know, I'm I'm seeing all these abuses and affairs and traumas, and then I come home and she's like angry because not angry, angry, but you know what I mean.
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:18.000
She's like, you know, Lizzie wasn't listening today or something, over silly stuff.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:24.240
And oh, this is so nice to come home to this because I don't need more drama, I don't need more drama in my life.
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:28.880
She gets on me because I'm the one that always says, Babe, you're not validating me.
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:31.279
She's like, Come on, Peter, you know, grow up here.
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:33.839
Like, why do I have to validate my wife?
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.359
My wife, when people say, Oh, what's it like to have a therapist for a husband?
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.720
And she goes, Well, he does do well at communication.
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:42.240
So yeah, right.
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:44.480
I take I take that as a compliment.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:45.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:47.440
No, for sure.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:48.240
I get burned out.
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:50.079
Do you ever come home and just feel burned out though?
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.480
Because I I'm not always the best listener when I come home.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.480
I'm kind of that's me.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:55.519
I I like it.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.880
I am I I was who was I talking to?
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:06.079
Yeah, so my wife and I we like to like kind of veg out in the evening and watch a show, and so nice shows eventually are over, right?
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.000
So then you gotta find your next show.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.079
And she was like, Oh, I've heard about this new show called This Is Us, and I don't think they make it anymore.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:26.079
And it's basically family a drama about family family problems, and I was like, Yeah, I don't want to watch that show.
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:27.519
No, I don't no way.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:28.000
Right.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:34.960
I would rather watch like a CIA type show that is not even really real.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:36.240
Yeah.
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:44.240
But uh I think I have the sweet spot with my schedule where I come home and I still can I still can engage.
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:51.039
It was probably more during COVID, actually, where it was harder to engage because all I was doing was telehealth.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:33:00.880
And and telehealth, I don't know, it just sapped the the energy out of me because in person is so much.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.640
I don't know if you didn't know better.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:04.079
Oh yeah, I know.
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.400
I would much rather see you in person than over telehealth.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:07.119
That's me too.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:09.200
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:30.079
Yeah, and and there is a man, I know we were talking about reading, and there was a book that I read, and I can't remember the name of it now, but it was talking about how to essentially have a full practice and to be very intentional about working with the people that bring you energy.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:35.599
And I definitely families and couples bring me energy.
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:43.200
Um the individual individual work is much more challenging, like energy-wise, for me.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:46.319
So I don't schedule a lot of individuals.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:51.359
I I definitely value like conflict with couples and families.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:34:04.000
Oh I know it's possibly a weird thing to say, but um I'm energized by it because there's more than just me and someone else talking about their depression in in the room.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:05.440
Yeah, fascinating.
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.079
Uh so I don't know if you find that yeah.
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:22.239
I wonder, I wonder if we go through like phases because I used to love working with kids, and then I had like I think my second was born, and then I noticed that I was spending more time with these kids, and then I was come home and I wouldn't, so I stopped seeing kids for a while.
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:34.880
Okay, and I used to see so many couples got trained in the Gottman and all this other stuff, but now I've just been so tired, and now I've gotten recently trained in personality disorders, and now I'm now I'm going and now I'm starting to see kids again.
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:36.079
So I don't know.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:40.000
I I wonder if it's if it just like ebbs and flows, maybe with our own energy.
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:40.480
I'm right there.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.000
It used to be couples, but right now I'm kind of taking a break a little bit.
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:48.320
I still see them, but I'm getting kind of worn out with them, and now I'm focused on individuals.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:52.559
But give me five years with working with personality disorders.
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:53.760
I'd probably be burned out with that.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:55.440
I probably want to see my couples again.
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:04.239
It's funny because even as even as we're talking about this, I like people that the five people that will see this, I want them to understand.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:09.440
It's like Peter and I don't hate couples, no, no, hate individuals, right?
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:20.480
Right, yeah, it's just it there's this energy thing that happens where we're just being honest that I sometimes don't have the energy for working with an individual.
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:20.960
Oh, yeah.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:21.760
It's amazing.
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:24.079
But it's very dreaming.
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:30.800
That's where I struggle, even on TikTok and Instagram, because I I feel like I I'll even some of my critics are like, Well, you're a therapist, you should know this, this, and this.
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.400
I'm like, Well, I'm not your therapist.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.440
I'm like, you know, like I'm just a normal guy, man.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:37.679
I'm like, I'm off the clock, right?
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:44.880
So I and sometimes the hardest thing about this, like we're still human and we're still like, you know, I'm not, it's not like I'm always anyway.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:47.039
You should be all things to all people at all times.
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:47.840
I know, right?
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:48.639
Yeah, exactly.
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:53.440
Is what happens, yeah, happens on TikTok, happens on social media, I think.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:54.639
Yeah, okay.
00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.719
So you have written well, you were into the cuddling.
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:01.920
I want to hear about this.
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:02.880
Oh, sure.
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:11.519
Yeah, talk to me about this because that's how I was first introduced to you on I think social media, where you were talking about cuddling, and I was like, What?
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:13.679
What is what is he talking about?
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:14.159
Right.
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.400
So please explain this.
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:18.719
Yeah, no, well, it's actually a Gottman thing.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:25.199
I mean, I met him and he had a fight, not a fight, but like he strongly disagrees with, he told me this privately.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:33.599
It was like he, Sue Johnson, and and Julie Gottman were very, very against Esther Perell, way back in 2018.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:34.400
And I said, Dr.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:35.360
Gottman, tell me about that.
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:36.400
Why are you so against her?
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:37.760
And he was like, This is what he said.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:43.039
It had nothing to do with all the stuff with open uh you know affairs, even though it was like, because he's against cuddling.
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.320
And I'm like, Oh, I was not expecting that answer.
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:51.280
And I and he's very pro-cutdling, you know, like very much so.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:59.840
And I anyway, I started and lo and behold, there's actually quite a bit of good research out there that says it like lowers cortisol and heart rate.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:06.639
And I actually notice a difference whenever I sometimes I'll sleep downstairs because my dog sometimes has to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night so she doesn't go on the floor.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.760
I'll even look at my own heart rate variability.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.400
It's always it's sometimes it's not as good as what I'm just like.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:13.840
I love to cuddle with my wife.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.639
I really do.
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:20.880
I was trying to, yeah, I was trying to just make it both personal but also somewhat science-based.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:25.920
I actually wrote an article that for for people if they ever wanted to get it.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:27.360
It's on my little stand store.
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:27.760
Right.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:28.159
Okay.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.079
With all the research behind it.
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:32.880
And or maybe your heart rate's up because that dog.
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:34.000
Yeah, right.
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:36.159
Or maybe irritating you.
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.320
She is she has a little golden doodle.
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:42.239
But yeah, so I mean, I think that was I I just started kind of getting into that.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.480
But also had a lot of couples that there's no intimacy.
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.159
And I usually start with that.
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:48.400
It's like, what about just like spooning?
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:51.760
I'm a big fan of spooning or just cuddling, you know, just like holding each other.
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:53.519
You know, are you okay with doing that?
00:37:53.679 --> 00:38:03.199
And I do notice that that's a really good segue, just to, you know, for a lot of my couples that are, you know, they haven't they haven't been intimate, haven't had sex in two, five.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.440
The longest I've ever heard was 14 years.
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:07.440
Maybe maybe 17 actually.
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:13.679
And so I usually that's usually kind of my my go-to uh what I try to assign, I suppose.
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:30.639
I just want you to do it like just for a few minutes, just try to feel each other's heartbeat, heart rate, you know, and just or heartbeat, yeah, and uh can't feel heart heart rate, but uh heartbeat, and just put your head on his chest or her chest and just sit with each other, you know, and spoon and kiss it, kiss each other's arm.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:33.360
But I hate physical touch, I hate physical.
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.880
I mean, I know, you know, the whole love language.
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.679
I I don't want to get into the debate about the science of love.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:40.639
Right, right.
00:38:41.280 --> 00:39:01.920
But but I I do think like even today at a couple that yeah, the the wife doesn't physical touch is not really her thing, but it is the husband's, and so then they're mad at each other, and yeah, he she's trying to repair, and then he's mad and doesn't want the repair, so then she feels rejected and and and stuff.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.119
And so, how do you address that with cuddling?
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:12.800
Because there may be someone's like, Yeah, I'm down for cuddling, and the other half is like, I'm not a big fan of that.
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:14.159
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:15.360
I mean, Gobman says this too.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:16.880
It's like it's one of those like learn things.
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.679
Like, my oldest is not a cuddler, she never, I don't know, she ever will be.
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:28.480
I try to Lizzie, come here, and she's like, Because my youngest, who's eight, she will hold you like a little chameleon for hours.
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:31.280
And I think wait till she's 16.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:31.760
She wants to be able to do that.
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:32.719
Wait till she's 16.
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:38.480
Well, even when Lizzie was gosh, even when she was two, like we she's always been that way.
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:40.480
Like, every I mean you've got yeah, you've got kids.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:42.880
I mean, yeah, you could see the little personnel personality.
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.039
Elies kind of in the middle.
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:47.199
I think he likes to cover, yeah, he's fine.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:56.320
But I he often talks about just like it's it's one of those things that you just the more you do, the better you get at it, the more receptive you do, the receptor receptive you are.
00:39:56.559 --> 00:40:01.760
So essentially it's saying fake it till it feels yeah, kind of, yeah.
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:02.559
A little bit of that.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:05.199
And I should verify, I actually was not, I'm not a cut.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:09.039
I um I only just recently kind of fell in love with cuddling.
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:09.760
I'm like you.
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.400
I I wasn't very I'm I'm Swedish, right?
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.119
My dad is Swedish and my uncle is Italian.
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:22.079
One of the biggest conflicts, honestly, is that my my my Italian uncle will get really, really close to you and want to always be in your face.
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:25.039
And my dad is like, get the heck away from me.
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:26.639
I kind of got that.
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:33.039
So I've grown as a 49-year-old man, it turns 50 in two months.
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:37.920
I I I've actually grown to like cuddling a lot more in the past, you know, a few years.
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.360
And does your wife like, I guess, is the she does, yeah.
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.000
She's always she likes that I've converted over.
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:49.039
So that's um, but now I yeah, I it's it's it's working.
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:50.480
But is she so?
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.559
I'm I'm taking guesses.
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:54.559
Like, uh does she homeschool?
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:55.920
She does, yeah.
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:57.199
Yeah, okay.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:01.679
She does classical education, classical, yeah, CE, it's called.
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:02.159
Okay.
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:02.960
Yeah.
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:05.119
So you teach our kids, you know, the Latin.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:11.280
It's it's funny because it's like the do they do like a once-a-week co-op thing?
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:12.880
They do, yeah.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.559
Yeah, and we're like the we're almost like the same person, right?
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:17.440
Oh, interesting.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:18.079
Yeah, right.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:26.079
So I like I'm the main income earner, and then my wife, we did classical conversations with our kids as well.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:30.800
So, like Latin and debate and mock trial.
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:31.760
I don't know if that happened.
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:32.639
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:34.239
Excited about that, yeah.
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:36.719
As well, how old are your how old are your kids?
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:43.039
Uh oh man, my so my oldest is 27, and then my youngest is 14.
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:56.079
My two youngest uh have Down syndrome, so they're not in the classical system, but my 18-year-old we just shipped her off to Australia to go to a Bible school in Australia.
00:41:56.239 --> 00:42:04.079
So wow, and we just got a Norwegian exchange student, which is gonna be interesting for the school year.
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:06.400
So oh wow, oh that sounds fun.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.599
Yeah, kind of interesting.
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:25.440
Wow, well, it's all it I'm not I mean, I'm glad that she's here, but what it means is now I'm tied to our public school system where I have to probably take her places or my wife has to take her places, yeah, right, and things like that.
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:30.719
And we've never had to do that because we've always just homeschooled, so yeah, it'll be interesting.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:31.519
That's really cool.
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.920
I go ahead.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:47.599
Yeah, and I never thought we would even homeschool until recently, you know, until I think we we really made the choice before COVID, which I'm so glad we did, because that would have my oldest at the time was she would have been seven going out eight.
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.719
So she probably would have had two years behind a screen.
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:52.639
And uh yeah.
00:42:53.280 --> 00:43:01.840
I think that really impacted negatively a lot of kids, unfortunately.
00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:03.920
Like having having to do that.
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:07.440
I'm sure there's studies on it that are out there.
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:08.000
Yeah.
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:20.400
So how do how does how did your experience with your dad and kind of your reconciliation, how does that kind of make you view estrangement?
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:23.199
Now here's where we will talk a little bit about it.
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:24.559
Sure, yeah.
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:30.400
Yeah, no, I well, I I I probably am a little, you know, I'm I'm probably a little biased.
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:42.159
I I did grow up in a pretty rough environment, and then I started seeing I'm like, you're cutting off your dad because he voted for Trump when he paid for your education and he paid for your wedding, and he's actually a really, really sweet father.
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:49.920
And honestly, gosh, I would have loved to have that experience for them, and you haven't spoken to him in six years, and you're you're on social media and you're talking bad about how toxic he is.
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:58.639
I I think there's an element of that that I I I'm I have to admit, I'm like, come on, man, you know, I I know what you have, and I see it.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:02.000
In fact, just this morning, I Family, you could tell like this.
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:10.559
You know, you could you could kind of tell what is what has been like a pretty good parent and probably a parent that really messed up.
00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:12.239
I mean, that's just my experience.
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:18.639
You know, you get to know their family history and how they raise their kids and a genuine love and a interest and a secure bond.
00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:23.280
And you know, you said I don't think you could fake a lot of that, like a in a long history.
00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:35.440
And and also I would, you know, I I think my relationship with him probably affected in that way, but also the healing of a of the healing of of um exoneration for myself.
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:39.679
I I was even telling my my parents, like, I'm actually here for these kids.
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:52.559
I really do want them, especially with parents like that, to let go of just the vitriol and you know, and the you know, the some of the hate that I often see toward pretty again, no parents perfect.
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:57.440
I'm I'm sure, you know, my my kids when they get older, they're gonna hey dad, I wish this, this, and this.
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.840
And but and I I I I think it's really good for your own mental health.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:09.519
I I also yeah, I think it was, I think a lot of that has has you know veered me into that that pathway, I think.
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:11.199
I'm still learning a lot, you know.
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:18.880
I I I've spent all my years probably picking on the parents actually until recently, because I almost feel like okay, now you're just putting in the towel.
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:34.559
Because, you know, as a family therapist, kids will put kids are often put in the middle, and a lot of, you know, you're especially in divorce and a lot of you know, pitting one kid against the other and gosh, what that does to a lot of kids' mental health.
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:42.880
I have picked on parents for the past 15 out of 18 years, but with the estrangement piece, I felt like it was like almost like putting in the towel with some of that.
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:47.280
And again, I you know, cutoff is just I will not talk to you again.
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:51.280
I see as very different than like, no, dad, if you're gonna drink, I'm I'm out.
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:53.920
You know, I'm I I'll see you, I'll see you next weekend.
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:57.039
I see that as not cutoff, it's just like learning to communicate.
00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:59.920
Well, I mean, that what you're just describing as a boundary, right?
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:04.320
If you're gonna this is what I'm going to do, right?
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:05.039
Essentially.
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:10.480
Do you think so with your own, but you never estranged from your dad though, right?
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:11.360
Or did you?
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:15.360
I kind of did for about a year and a half, I would say.
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:16.079
Yeah.
00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:19.039
I probably wouldn't have called it that at the time.
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:25.440
I didn't really want a lot to do with him for about maybe even longer than that, actually, looking back.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:27.199
Maybe even two years.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:27.599
Yeah.
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:30.719
And did you tell, did you explain, was that boundary there?
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:33.840
Like, hey, if you're gonna keep drinking, I'm I can't do this.
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.480
Yeah, at the time he wasn't, it was more his anger.
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:45.840
I did eventually I started kind of growing a backbone a little bit, and you know, I was kind of I after I become a Christian, I became such a people pleaser.
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:50.719
And I I this is where in grad school I started having a youth.
00:46:51.039 --> 00:47:02.559
There was a guy at my I was part of a reform university fellowship at App State, and he kind of discipled me to be more assertive, not to be always telling people what I what they want to hear.
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:04.880
I was very much like give, give, give.
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:09.360
And then while I was doing it, I was still kind of bitter a little bit toward my father.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.679
And I actually learned how to be dad, I'm not listening don't talk to me that way, you know.
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:15.599
All right, I need you to back off.
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:17.840
And look, if you have something to say, let me know.
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:18.159
Okay.
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:19.440
I would just just like that.
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:21.679
You know, I wouldn't raise my voice, scream.
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:26.880
And then actually I use that even now with psych patients at the hospital when I'm getting out of hand, you know.
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:28.960
I I know how to be a lot firmer than that.
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:41.599
And, you know, I think I learned tactics that that really helped me in the long run to be real direct without being without losing your, you know, losing your temper, which I don't think you have control in that situation.
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:44.559
Just be I mean, that's emotional regulation, is what you're trying to say.
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:47.199
Yeah, well, kind of like what you said about your sister.
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:48.559
I think that was that's awesome.
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.639
Like, look, I need you get I need you to get some help, but I'm tired of splitting.
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:54.000
And when you're ready to do that, let me know.
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:55.599
That's not that's not cutoff.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:06.079
That's just like, you know, that's a that's a clear well and she can't if someone and if someone were to say, Well, why is your brother not you know interacting with you?
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:11.119
She knows if she was honest, she knows clearly the reason why.
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:12.960
It's it's not like so.
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:16.480
I am curious, like, what do you what do you think about this?
00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:22.239
It's a I call it a trope, the trope of, oh, I don't know why my kids are in no contact with me.
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:23.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:25.360
I'm curious your thoughts on that.
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:30.159
Well, it's funny because I I got to hear Matthias Baker, and he was pretty good.
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:32.320
He's been doing, he does a lot more work with it.
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:41.119
I went to this conference in Chicago, and I also got to talk to Joshua Coleman, and then, you know, and then Dr.
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:42.159
Pilimer.
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:48.079
All three of those people, especially the latter two, have done Pilimer's done the most research on this.
00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:52.480
I don't want you to mention the one lady that's like a curse word to me.
00:48:52.559 --> 00:49:03.360
So no, I you know, yeah, and I I behind closed doors, I'll love to tell you that I I've come to maybe agree a little bit more with so yeah, we won't talk about that now, but tell me.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:04.239
Yeah, maybe later.
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:08.079
No, no, but anyway, with those, yeah, I got to I got to hear a whole lot.
00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:21.599
And yeah, and and it was it was actually really helpful that they were that's that's not you know, and I I would probably agree with you if you're completely surprised, you know, maybe you're you're kind of missing things.
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:33.599
However, some of the political stuff, like again, I do hear, I do hear family members are like, and when I did that survey of 7,500 uh parents, they were like, I really don't know why.
00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:37.760
And I do think that there's some truth to that with some of these, some of these parents.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.840
I wouldn't say it's the vast majority.
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:58.559
I think when you when you really kind of help them narrow down, they're like, okay, we were talking about this, this, and dad was kind of saying this, and you know, there's a narrative, but I think the biggest surprise is just like the all of a sudden we're having a great relationship with it, you know, and then cut off.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:01.280
And I keep hearing this more and more and more.
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:01.920
And I don't know.
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:09.199
Right, but then I mean I hear that too, but then yeah, do you really again?
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:10.800
We're just making guesses here.
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:15.199
Yeah, do you really think then it was a great relationship?
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:21.679
If it was just randomly they went no contact, and they have the parent has no clue.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:36.960
Yeah, well, I could tell you a little bit about the person I just you know, and this is this is so general, I don't think I'm breaking any confidentiality, but yeah, they would have described, and even the sister and even the family members, they're going, they're having a really it was a very positive relationship.
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:40.480
Speaking, and then the 2024 election came.
00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:52.800
The parents were more conservative, the child was leaning a lot more toward like democratic socialism America, and they had seen that if you voted for Trump, you're a you're a threat to my existence and my identity.
00:50:53.039 --> 00:51:03.199
Parents were putting that kind of in the backbone, they didn't even want to talk about politics, but because he had won in 2024, they hadn't even spoken to this child for the last two years.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:10.559
I do hear stuff like that over and over, especially how political are to me, uh but I guess to me that's a reason.
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:11.440
That's true.
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.840
Yeah, if I don't agree, even if I think maybe that's not a great reason, it's still a reason.
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:17.119
It's the ones that's a good point.
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:22.320
Yeah, I think that's the ones that are like I have zero clue on why this has happened.
00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:23.679
And I don't know.
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:27.119
Yeah, that I have found I would agree on that part.
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:35.519
Yeah, I have found like at least on TikTok when a parent when I you know, because I stitch people, some people think it's great, others don't, but whatever.
00:51:35.679 --> 00:52:06.320
But uh I can see a parent that says, I have no idea why, but then you can see in their videos there's like breadcrumbs that well, I can see why they have because you say these kinds of things or you do this kind of behavior, and so that trope of I don't know why, I think it does exist, but I don't I like to think again, there's no data on it, that it's not as prevalent as strange parents would have you think it is.
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:08.639
I mean, yes, would you agree or no?
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:13.599
I I I think I do, and the more I'm leaning into this, I'm trying to be even a more direct.
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:19.199
I'm being careful at saying like that's what you know that I I yeah, there's two tropes.
00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:23.360
It's like my mom deserved to be cut off because of this, this, and this.
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:30.159
And and I think they can agree or dis we can agree or disagree with that, right?
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:31.280
Like, yeah.
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:43.199
Yeah, and it's like like one group of one group of kids that are gonna be saying like my mom was a very toxic person who only talked about herself.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:48.079
And then when you talk to the mom, she was like, she has a totally definition of terms.
00:52:48.400 --> 00:53:03.039
And because these definition definition of terms are not being collaborated with the mom's definition of terms, in that sense, the mom has no clue why this cutoff has ever even occurred because her definition of terms is totally isolated from her own.
00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:08.639
And so I do think like Gen X and our own generation of millennials, like we're so much more used to conflict.
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:25.760
And, you know, and the smallest, I do often see, and Jonathan Height talks a lot about this, like the anxious generation at the smallest amount of conflict will often cause the child to immediately feel triggered and they would want to come back, like they don't want to necessarily engage in any anything that's gonna cause them stress.
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:33.280
I see that as a teacher at Endicott for you know, just like the smallest thing is is gonna really set them off, especially with COVID.
00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:39.360
So I think when they say, I quote, don't know, it's like that doesn't make sense why you would.
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.480
That's part of life, you know, then in that sense.
00:53:42.719 --> 00:54:00.480
And I what where but there are times when I will see things in certain parents that I'm like, huh, we may need to really work on this because even in my small little interaction with you, I'm I'm seeing some not so great healthy dynamics.
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:09.840
And I I I'm all about like knowing what you can work with in the here and now and bringing that in an amplif and bringing that out in an amplified way.
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:22.639
So if a if a parent is like already being kind of passive aggressive in their communication, and I've only met with them for like, you know, just like not even met with them, but like yeah, interacting with them maybe in two or three times.
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:35.119
I'm like, ooh, okay, if you're doing this with me, yes, and you barely know me, you know, I yeah, that I agree, like that part, I thousand percent agree with you on that.
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:45.599
It's like, okay, you're you're you're already being somewhat rude and demanding in some of the things I'm even saying, and you're like completely, totally, I don't know.
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:46.719
I'm like, yeah.
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:50.880
But I would say that's not the vast majority of the ones that I work with personally.
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:58.559
They really are like, I they have tried and tried and tried to reconcile, and they've overly apologized, you know.
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:02.320
I mean, to the point where I'm like, okay, stop apologizing so much.
00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:13.119
I want you to kind of build your, I want you to build your core sense of value again and know who you are, especially apologizing when the when the child is saying very insulting things to them.
00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:17.039
And I'm like, there's nothing you have to do to keep chasing and apologizing for.
00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:21.440
I want you to again find your voice and then build your confidence.
00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:22.880
And then anyway, yeah.
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:28.880
It's a it's but yeah, I mean, I we could talk about we could probably talk about that a lot.
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:29.519
Sure.
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:31.280
Lots of conversation.
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:36.000
Um so so I I don't want to take any more of your time.
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:44.639
What I mean, the thought I had like I would love to be able to do this more regularly with you to kind of have these conversations back and forth about a variety of topics.
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:44.960
Yeah.
00:55:45.280 --> 00:56:08.480
I had a I had, I'll I'll be the first to admit, I had a flying monkey at that conference, and they told me something Michelle said was that correct me if I'm wrong if you heard it, that you can't be you can't help an estranged person if you have estrangement in your life.
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:14.639
Do you remember that being said by Michelle Wiener Davis?
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:16.800
Yeah, not quite like that.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:23.280
I I think it was I think she was more talking about like the patterns, like what may repeat themselves.
00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:24.239
Yeah.
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:40.000
Yeah, I don't remember her saying that, but um I I'll have to I'll have to it was a very strong the the person that told me this, it was like a very strong statement that you or you shouldn't be a therapist if you have estrangement in your own life.
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:41.119
Oh gosh, yeah.
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:45.199
If I I didn't hear that personally, but if I would have really disagreed, okay.
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:48.000
That's like if I got divorced from my wife, I can't help divorce couples.
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:54.400
Well, she she's the like when I was in grad school, she was like one of those pioneers for divorce busters, right?
00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:56.880
She she was big into that, right?
00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:00.639
And I I think that's that same logic would apply.
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:04.079
Like, oh, you can never help a married couple if you've been divorced.
00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:08.719
Well, that rules out Gottman because he was divorced three times uh before he met Julie.
00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:10.320
Yeah, okay.
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:15.199
Yeah, he said he finally got it right the fourth time, or maybe it was the third time.
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:16.719
I can't remember, but I mean he kept messing.
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:18.000
You know, that's that's just according to him.
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:19.760
That's when he's like, Oh, I better start cuddling.
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:20.880
That's the solution, right?
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:22.000
Yeah, maybe that's what it is.
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:31.440
Yeah, and gosh, I and my faith actually would strongly disagree with that because one of my favorite books was by Henry Nguyen, The Wounded Healer.
00:57:31.599 --> 00:57:32.480
I love that book.
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:36.159
That's actually one of my favorite therapy books, even though it's not a therapy book.
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:48.880
It's you know, is we wear broken vessels and we bring water where broken vessels are, and you know, and and we're all trying to I think I think if you're allowing transference, but I mean that's why I want to be open even with my own relationship.
00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:52.800
That I I don't mind admitting that probably you know, I I I have a bias.
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:55.519
I think everybody has biases, everyone has a bias.
00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:59.519
But to yeah, but to admit like I can't help people.
00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:03.760
I don't remember her saying that, but I may I may have been checked out going to the bathroom.
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:04.480
I don't know.
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:06.880
I don't know.
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.679
What but what book are you reading a book currently?
00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:10.639
I am.
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:13.519
I'm reading I'm reading East of Eden, and which I love.
00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:18.639
Uh Steinbeck's my favorite, one of my favorite writers, and I don't read a lot of therapy books, believe it or not.
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:24.480
So and then yeah, I'm reading I'm reading, well, uh Joel Paris, How to Treat Borderlines.
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:25.360
So I am reading that.
00:58:25.519 --> 00:58:26.320
So that is yeah.
00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:30.400
That sounds absolutely miserable, but it's actually really good.
00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:33.039
If you like it, uh that's true.
00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:34.719
I actually love it.
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:35.679
I love Joel Paris.
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:36.480
He's a very good writer.
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:36.880
He is.
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:41.440
He's uh yeah, he's kind of a cranky 85-year-old who tells it as it is.
00:58:41.599 --> 00:58:42.320
He's very clear.
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:43.920
I like clear, crisp writing.
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:44.559
That's just me.
00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:45.039
Okay.
00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:46.559
Well, maybe I'll have to pick that up.
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:49.760
Hey, I have I have absolutely appreciated you coming on.
00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:52.719
Let me pick the brain, talk about things.
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:55.119
And I definitely want to do this off.
00:58:55.760 --> 00:59:01.360
I want to do this more regularly because I think I I enjoy it.
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.039
So I like to do things that I enjoy.
00:59:03.199 --> 00:59:06.480
So if if this is something that we can do regularly, we can talk about it.
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:07.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:10.719
I like I like talking to people that are I see things differently too.
00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:13.039
I mean, that's that's that's my yes.
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:18.400
Yeah, I probably wouldn't have talked about stuff so controversial if I wasn't able to be able to have that conversation.
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:25.039
So well, when I tell when I make my TikTok video about this video, people will be shocked.
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:27.760
I think I've tried you know who Dormat Mom is.
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:30.000
You've talked to Dormat Mom, Laura Wellington.
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:30.800
Oh, yeah.
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:31.199
Oh yeah.
00:59:31.519 --> 00:59:41.360
She she's blocked me, she filed a formal complaint against me with my Department of Health, and I still wanted, I would love to have her on to have a conversation with her.
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:45.679
So if you have any influence over her, tell her to come on with me.
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:46.480
Okay, all right.
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:47.440
I'll tell her to come on.
00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:47.760
Yes.
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:49.760
I'm sure she won't still, but yeah.
00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:50.320
Yeah.
00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:52.400
Okay, thanks for coming on, Peter.
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:52.880
Sure.
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:56.559
It was great talking to you, and I look forward to future conversations.
00:59:56.800 --> 00:59:57.360
Awesome.
00:59:57.599 --> 00:59:57.920
Okay.