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Welcome back to Good Enough Isn't.
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This is your host, Myles Biggs, and today we have a special Cannes Lions episode of the podcast for you.
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Every June, the global advertising industry descends on the south of France for Cannes Lions, the world's most prestigious creativity festival.
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Agencies, brand marketers, tech platforms all in one place for a week.
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If you are listening to this and you're not a creative, you might wonder what any of it has to do with you, and that's actually the question driving this whole episode.
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Level sent three people to walk the show this year: Patrick Patterson, our CEO; Howard Diamond, our CRO; and Pat Vangorder, our chief partnerships officer.
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Today's episode, they're all here on a panel diving into their biggest takeaways.
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So let's bring them out and get started.
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Gentlemen, nice to have you on the podcast today.
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Good
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morning.
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What's up?
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Thanks for having us.
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You've really been working on that radio voice.
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It's
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strong.
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Thank you.
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To open up, I thought we could do, like, a quick lightning round question for each of you.
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I'd like you to each describe Cannes Lions for me in one word.
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So Patrick, why don't we start with you?
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I'll do the five.
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Hot.
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Hot.
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Okay.
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It was extremely hot.
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It was 20 degrees warmer, uh, than typical uh, in, in for that time of year.
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And so, in a conference that's predominantly outside and all of the meetings are outside, it was hot.
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And so I'll, I'll let Howard and Pat give- more pithy answers, but that's my quick response.
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I know
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it.
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So I'm gonna cheat.
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I'm gonna use two wor- Yeah.
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I, I'm gonna use two words.
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I'm gonna say full circle, because this was my first time coming with Level, and I had been here previously, but I had met the Level folks about a year ago.
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So it was, like, a full circle moment for me, and really fun, really fortunate to be going again and with, with my colleagues here from Level.
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And I'll go with unique.
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I, I didn't know what to expect.
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This was my first time, Patrick's first time too, so, you know, it was-- there was a little bit of, um, what is this whole thing that everyone is talking about?
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And, WTF is the, is gonna be the value for us?
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And I was blown away, pleasantly surprised by sort of the serendipity and uniqueness of the whole affair, which I'm excited to unpack together today.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You can try to explain, you know, what Cannes is all about, but until you're actually there and experience it it, it's a completely different thing.
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I
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feel like hot, full circle, unique is gonna be a great a great name for this podcast when it, when this finally airs.
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Uh, but so Pat, back to what you just said, you know, the, like, what is the value in all of this?
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Having gone now, what was the value in all of it?
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Now that you're back, what's the key learnings?
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Patrick, so something you said I think was really interesting.
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We, we, you know, we were, we were kinda playing around with this idea over the course of the week, trying to figure out where the, where the magic was.
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I think first, like, a lot of-- I won't say everyone is there, that sounds obnoxious.
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Um, but, like, a lot of people were there, and a lot of very, very smart people that were, very interesting and engaged and leaned in.
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Patrick, you mentioned the time difference thing, so, like, the fact that we were all, five to eight hours ahead of our teams back stateside meant that there was less sort of a distraction.
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I don't know about you guys, but, like, when I'm at conferences, like, my...
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the work does not stop, and I know, you know, Howard was taking pitches from the, from the Croisset.
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Um, but you know, it was just, it was kind of a, like a s- a sacred space some, in some ways, kinda carved out.
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You know, people weren't on their phones in the same ways.
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Yeah, so those were two, two factors.
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What do you guys, what do you guys think?
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I agree that the, um, the fact that it's at that time allows you to be really focused.
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At the same time, no one feels sorry for you that you're also then getting on calls at midnight or 1:00 in the morning to talk to your team, because the rosé and the fun meals and all that are supposed to make up for that.
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But I think it is unique, and it allows you to kinda live in that dual world of, you know, relationships and thought leadership and having fun, and then also checking in on the real world.
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Yeah.
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And, and Myles, I think, you know, as, as I think I've said on the podcast before, like, in 2026, trying to figure out what is irreplaceably human in what we're doing, and, you know, in the past six years, going from 100% Zoom to now AI and everything getting replaced in what we're doing and automated, I think, like, what was really unique was, like, Can- Canline by itself is irreplaceably human.
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It is about the human and everything, and yes, we talked about AI, and yes, we talked about advertising, and yes, we're gonna...
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we talked about all those things.
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But, like, the human aspect, the touch the being able to touch f- touch the table with folks and have those relationships and those conversations in a way that, yes it, you know, because our teams are six hours behind or, you know, it's different.
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But, it i- it, it really kind of underscored to me the importance of one-to-one connection, in person, and we all know it's important, but I think the week really showed, showcased to me, like, how important it is.
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Yeah, no, that phrase, irreplaceably human, is something we're...
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It keeps coming up in all of our conversations at Level.
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Did you feel like that was a shared thought by other attendees?
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Or when you were interacting with other leaders across companies, folks had a different opinion, and you found yourself in some friendly debates?
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Yeah, I think, I think we're all trying to figure it out.
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I would say some of the best conversations I had during the week were debating what is irreplaceably human.
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Is it taste?
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Is it judgment?
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Is it curiosity?
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Is it relationship?
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Is it connection?
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You know, there was, there was one agency leader I was, I was arguing with that said, you know,"Judgment is not irreplaceably human," that we can have, uh, machines do the judgment for us.
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We can have machines, uh, mimic taste for us.
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And so I think we're all, as, business folks, advertisers, creatives, we're all trying to figure out where do we fit as we hold our breath on, on what's gonna get automated next.
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And, I think everyone has a little bit of a different answer, and I also think that answer to that question is gonna be what separates your company from other companies as we go forward and we all get better and better technology underneath what we do.
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Yeah, I think the-
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I-
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Oh, go ahead, Howard.
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Well, I was gonna say, I think, um, taking it in a little bit of a different direction, this also gets into the dichotomy of Cannes itself.
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That Cannes, again, is this sort of creative festival where you have the Palais, which is where they house the creative awards and all the great work, and you have creatives literally on panels talking about the work they did with their hands in conference rooms.
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It doesn't mean they didn't use technology or data, but it's a very different sort of creator mentality.
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Then you go out to the beach, and it's all the media companies talking about technology and AI and things like that.
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So when you talk about irreplaceably human there is this, uh, dichotomy that's happening, but at the end, they should really be connected together.
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So I just think it's, uh, it's a really strong observation in a year where, you know, agentic is, is the number one buzzword, but at the end of the day, creative and media really need to sit together
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I think these are still people that are, thinking about what their place in this future is, right?
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And I think that's why I love the enunciation of irreplaceably human.
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I think it's, I think it is a great, essential view of the anxiety that people are feeling because I think they're trying to, you know, they're trying to put a finger on it and ask,"Do I have it?
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Do I, you know, do I have that, that, that capability that is irreplaceably human?" And I do think that, you know, there's, there's a very legitimate sort of span of argument about what that entails.
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But I think, you know, the, the being in sort of the room where that conversation is happening in real time and where, you know, if you think about a lot of the, the frontier, like actual consumer applications of AI, you know, it is in the marketing, in consumer, you know, experience space, and it's really interesting and edifying to be sort of on the, in the room where those conversations are happening.
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Was there ever one of those conversations that you're talking about, Pat, where you left it going"I know I'm eight hours ahead, but like our team has to hear this right now or our clients need to hear about this.
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Like this is, this is something that really resonated"?
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I think we were all taking a fairly journalistic approach.
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Our nerd-in-chief, Patrick, of course, sp- spun up a, uh, spun up like a, an agentic hub that was basically, you know, taking all of our our notes and transcripts in and ingesting it.
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Um, so we were all kinda taking a very journalistic approach and then sharing out with our team as we were- teams as we were talking about stuff.
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Um, I think, you know, some of the interesting things that feel like they are still sorta unsettled territory you know, we heard a variety of opinions from different, um, ad platforms around, like, AI-generated influencer sort of dynamics.
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So, you know, I think you've got one camp that's saying,"Hey, like, uh, we- we're gonna draw the line at you know, AI-generated humans at, you know, in a, a consumer context." Then you've got other folks that are like,"No, it's just a matter of time until you know, there is effective AI-generated, influencers, and you see some of this already, right?
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Yeah.
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This is not novel, but, like, thinking about that at scale in, in a brand sponsor context.
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But those types of things I think are the interesting, like, um, unsettled territories right now one example of that.
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Yeah.
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I don't know about you and, uh, you, Pat and Howard.
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I miss Cannes Bot.
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You know- All right.
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Yeah.
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we, we had C- we had Cannes Bot that was messaging us during the day, telling us where we needed to be.
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We could send it notes.
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It would parse everything.
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That was fun.
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You know, I think, Howard, uh, you know, we talked about this a little bit, but, like, the, uh, this idea that AI was going to be the phrase of Cannes, right?
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And, like, this thing that everyone's gonna be talking about at AI, AI, and of c- and of course we talked about AI.
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But I think, like, what was really fascinating, I, and I believe I made three or four phone calls after, you know, I was in a, a meeting with one of our partners about this.
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You know, sitting in a room with some of the, some of not some of the top agencies in the world, and, the question comes up of,"How are your clients expecting you to use AI?" And the answer was,"Well, six months ago we had to explain it, and now it's just expected." And there's this idea that this has shifted very quickly, and, like, six months is a fast time for something to shift.
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Uh, you know, and so, like, I would say back in January, and Howard you're on the front lines in this, in, in, in what you do, but, like, clients were asking, like,"How are you using it?
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What are you doing?
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What are the tools?
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Where are all the things?" And now today it's,"How do you generate value?
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How are you getting results?
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How are you getting ROI?" Not that they didn't care about that, but I think there was more pressure to figure it out six months ago, and now it's like electricity, the internet, and air.
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Yes, we're going to use AI just like we use all those other things to create great work, but now how do you get results, right?
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Yeah.
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And I think that was a very interesting paradigm shift for me.
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Yeah, I think it's expected.
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I mean, the, the, the maturity is happening where, again, it comes back to what value is this adding to the relationship, to the campaign?
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How is it affecting the end customer?
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So I think that evolution has happened very quickly, I agree.
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I think that showed up in the work that, that won awards too.
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A couple of the, the standout pieces that, that I saw were not about AI or, you know, even like highly visible AI for the sake of it.
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It was about what the, you know, what the capabilities power.
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There was an awesome, uh, lucky fan index project I think BML did for a, a Polish league football club where they basically, you know, brute force ML like, uh, in this league, everyone has to...
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They have a record of who's at every game, so they could tell who the luckiest fan was- Oh, that's fun who, you know, whose attendance was most correlated with, the best outcomes and who was the unluckiest fan.
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That obviously you know, more of an ML technique, but then they were able to sort of personalize the outreach to each individual fan based on their lucky fan index.
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But it wasn't about, you know, the fact that,"Oh, we're, we're using AI to do this." It's we're having a really, one-to-one conversation based on this, you know, sense of belonging that, you know, that, that I think was what, what tilted the judges on it
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To, to take it in a slightly different direction, so Level actually submitted work this year, and it was our first time, and it was amazing work.
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And we weren't shortlisted, which is okay.
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And it's funny because the company of, of brands that we were not shortlisted in is a, is an amazing list of companies.
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I mean, just awesome global brands.
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And one of the things that I was sort of set up, set out to do was to understand for our team what it takes to win a Cannes Lion and do some research, and I sat in, on some panels.
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And one of the panels I went to, they talked about, like, what actually is required to deliver winning work to win at Cannes.
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And one of the judges started talking about,"We'll start with reverse engineering the criteria for the award." And I immediately started thinking of AI.
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Okay, we can build an analysis tool, and we can sort of reverse engineer, you know, what, what that path looks like.
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Of course, um, doesn't mean it doesn't take human taste and judgment to get there, but you can definitely apply a technology lens.
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And then another judge interrupted and said,"No, no, no.
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It's all about the customer.
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It's all about what's on the other end of the ad." I think that even that struggle on stage kind of represents, you know, what's, what's happening in the marketplace.
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Surely you can immediately graft on a technology and AI approach, but at the end of the day, you need to be thinking about the human on the other end of the ad and what impact that's gonna have.
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So I thought that was very interesting and kind of, again, um, apropos for what was going on between this giant creative festival right next to this giant technology media festival, where some of the people didn't know they were both happening next to each other.
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Yeah, I think it's really interesting.
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I was talking to someone who, had, has been to Cannes for the past 15 years.
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And 15 years ago, Howard, it was purely a creative festival, right?
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There, there wasn't two parties, uh, you know, working, you know, working in parallel.
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So, and then the past six years, seven years, it's really been taken over by the media companies.
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You've seen the companies like Google and Spotify and Meta come in, um, with the Snapchat museum now, uh, which is, which is crazy.
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And I think, you know, as I was talking to this, this person, they were like,"You know, this is the first year in many years where it's started to come back as a creative conference." And it, and'cause creative, I think, is now more important than ever when it comes to media, right?
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So it's this, you know, I, I know Google was talking about brandformance, but it's this combination of creativity and media and performance all coming into, to one spot.
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So I think as you think about advertising agencies and you think about where we fit in the confluence of those three things and technology.
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There was ad tech was there, OpenAI and Claude were there.
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We're kind of in the middle of all of those things as an agency.
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Like, how important do you think it is, and I'm just curious, like, for agencies like us to submit work to Cannes and to really be a part of that creative story and not just the media story?
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I think I, I wanna focus first on this notion of the importance of creative.
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I think in a world where everyone has access to different types of agentic tools, you know, value-based bidding, different types of algorithmic, uh, buying strategies, if everyone is using similar technology, then what becomes that lever that is different across brands that are perhaps competitors?
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And that is where creative comes in.
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So I think creative is super important, and you can arrive, you can arrive at creative decisions through technology and data insights, but having the ability to actually produce great creative that resonates with humans emotionally is really important.
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I think to the extent that awards are important, I think there are different opinions there.
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I definitely think it's really cool for agencies to submit work because it shows how awesome their teams are, how just the amazing work that they're doing, whether they win or lose, it sort of creates attention and awareness of this great work that they're doing.
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Also, I think it's a great moment for the brands, the customers themselves.
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It's really about them, that they have partnered together with us.
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They've given us the flexibility, the liberty, uh, the freedom.
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They're taking risks.
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I think that's another big part of creative is taking risks to do great work.
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So I think that to the extent that we're illuminating those stories, it's really important.
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I think at the end of the day, if you look at who actually wins awards, and Pat and I were chatting about this, it's a lot of very large global agencies and global brands.
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And- Today I don't know- Today is Today.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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And I think, I think that distinction, so, like, it is large global holdco agencies and, and I think, hot take here, Myles, I think we're gonna see more and more indies smaller, nimbler, agencies that are coming into this moment and now have access to these demo- democratized tools and democratized data.
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And, you know, it used to be, and I'll just say it out loud, right?
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Holdcos used to hold all of the keys to the best media buys and the best technology and the best everything because they had all the money.
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And so when you have the best of everything, the technology, the information, the best of everything, it's easy to command to- and work with the best brands.
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I think what we're seeing now and why a lot of holdcos are, are scared is, smaller organizations that are 200, 500, even 1,000 employees kinda in that, in that size range now have access to the same buying power, the same tech- the same technology, the same information.
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And I think while maybe it was 95% large agencies today, I think as we go forward, we're gonna see more and more indies, indies coming in and really disrupting what- Yeah what's happening here.
00:17:53.198 --> 00:17:54.807
I know, Pat, you have a strong take on that.
00:17:54.897 --> 00:17:56.008
I do, and I, and I wanna...
00:17:56.347 --> 00:18:30.528
Let me come back to the indie thing in a second'cause I think on the earlier question around do these awards matter one of the most interesting things I heard, and I, I don't have the data to actually check this, but it was you know, somebody very smart and compelling sharing it was that they did a, you know, they did a a correlative association study and they, you know, they, they looked at, like, what campaigns won awards and correlated it with business impact and, like, real business impact as much as it was measurable, and they found, a very, very close you know, connection between award-winning work and actually driving businesses forward.
00:18:30.528 --> 00:18:41.077
So I thought that was interesting and, you know, remembering that it's not, like, great work is not worth celebrating on its, by itself.
00:18:41.107 --> 00:18:49.688
It's the fact that great work drives great business outcomes, and that whole picture is, you know, is what I think, you know, Cannes Lions is, is trying to celebrate.
00:18:49.688 --> 00:18:55.587
So I think that's why, you know, this is a good aspirational space for for brands and, and indies.
00:18:55.587 --> 00:19:11.637
And I do think, like, the in- the brands and agencies, and I think the, you know, the intentionality of, insight action result and, you know, really approaching it, you know, not just around like,"Hey, we're, you know, we're gonna do good marketing," right?
00:19:11.637 --> 00:19:33.738
"We're gonna do good foundational, fundamental performance or digital marketing." But no, we're gonna look at, we're gonna look at this problem, we're gonna look at this growth, this brand's growth objective and identify, you know, something new that somebody else hasn't seen before or seen as clearly, and then we're going to, build a wedge around that insight and, you know, deploy it in a way that, that drives outsized business growth and value.
00:19:33.748 --> 00:19:37.407
Like that to me is, is the magic of this type of, awards show.
00:19:38.498 --> 00:19:46.407
I think on the indie side Patrick, yeah, it was-- I mean, it was awesome to see the range of, scaled indie agencies that were there.
00:19:46.417 --> 00:20:02.248
Like there were, there were a lot of us, um, that were, you know, there's probably what, you know, 10 or 15 sort of that are in this, um, this power indie or scaling indie category that, you know, that we're, you know, proud to be on the vanguard of, and seems like all of them were there.
00:20:02.357 --> 00:20:06.827
You know, I won't, I won't shout out all the all the names because we're, we are frenemies after all.
00:20:07.268 --> 00:20:29.347
Um, but it's definitely, you know, it is definitely neat to you know, sort of see the investment and the understanding that like both from the indies up, like the indies saying,"Hey, there's value here for me to be here and be part of this conversation." And then, you know, from the brands and the tech and media platforms down saying the indies are able to do something here that, the holdcos can't do.
00:20:29.397 --> 00:20:31.248
They're able to move really fast.
00:20:31.637 --> 00:20:38.577
They're able to, to take insight and apply it and scale it across, you know, their portfolio really quickly.
00:20:38.907 --> 00:20:42.917
I think that is leading to us being on the vanguard of a lot of really exciting conversations.
00:20:45.195 --> 00:20:45.685
Yeah, I agree.
00:20:45.685 --> 00:20:53.205
I think this was the year of the indie agency, not just sort of showing up, uh, as attendees and people that are sitting in the audience, but being on stage.
00:20:53.455 --> 00:21:06.355
A huge moment of pride was seeing you, Pat, on the, uh, the panel with PubMatic, and not only that we were sort of the first, uh, indie agency using their agenda capabilities, but it was all about the actual outcomes, if I could plug the work we're doing.
00:21:06.605 --> 00:21:14.306
And I think that's very representative of what's happening right now, that the holdcos, to Patrick's point, they don't have the market cornered on some of these capabilities.
00:21:14.336 --> 00:21:37.586
And with a lot of the new technology solutions out there, and I think I went in with a much more open mind this year talking to a lot of these vendors, that both with the agenda capabilities a lot of agencies are building and some of the tools that are out there in the marketplace, we could put together some really innovative solutions for clients and do it in a much more nimble and, you know, and s- fast way to bring those to market.
00:21:37.586 --> 00:21:40.155
So I, I was very excited about that whole aspect.
00:21:40.516 --> 00:21:43.026
It wasn't like we're sort of peering in from the outside.
00:21:43.036 --> 00:21:45.806
We're squarely part of the conversation this year, and that was really cool.
00:21:46.756 --> 00:21:56.385
Yeah, and, like, to your point on, on frenemies, Pat some of the best conversations I think I had all, all week were with what w- most would consider competitors.
00:21:56.476 --> 00:21:56.756
Yep.
00:21:56.855 --> 00:22:17.415
And, you know, I h- w- talking to the CEO of an organization, you know, we w- you know, one, one, literally in one breath it was,"Hey, uh, you guys took this account from us." I w- and, and in the other breath it was like,"Yeah, we-- and, and you took this account from us," and, you know, like, and, like, and it was, like, camaraderie and not competitive.
00:22:17.526 --> 00:22:24.685
And and then it was like, okay, well, there's, there's a lot we can learn from each other, I think, and a lot we can do together.
00:22:24.855 --> 00:22:30.046
And I think, the collective of us is also really, really powerful, right?
00:22:30.405 --> 00:22:32.665
Um, when-- that's the other thing.
00:22:32.816 --> 00:22:37.566
When you have 10,000 people at a holdco or 20,000 people or 30,000 people, you get that collective.
00:22:37.935 --> 00:22:53.536
And so I think, you know, the times where there were 10 indie agencies in a closed, you know, in a closed panel talking those were some of the most valuable conversations,'cause it's-- we realize, like, if we can share our best practices, we all become better, and I think that's really exciting.
00:22:54.326 --> 00:22:57.955
So for non-agency marketers listening, right?
00:22:57.955 --> 00:23:08.625
If I'm a marketing leader in an organization, if they could have sat in on that conversation that you're talking about, the indie agencies and what we're all doing, what should they be taking away?
00:23:08.675 --> 00:23:12.105
What should they be changing and doing differently in this coming quarter?
00:23:16.178 --> 00:23:19.107
I'll hop off on this, um, Myles.
00:23:19.107 --> 00:23:42.428
I think the speed and the pace of play is the biggest thing right now, and it's less about being 100% right and 100% certain, and it's more about being willing to lean into this incredibly disrupted moment where everything is changing and everything is changing.
00:23:42.428 --> 00:23:51.637
You know, Patterson's six-month, um, window, like six month is like a lifetime now, whereas that used to be what, you know, two QBRs.
00:23:52.488 --> 00:23:53.448
Still two QBRs.
00:23:53.688 --> 00:24:09.238
But the pace of travel is just so, accelerated and I think, um, you know, the best advice that I would give to, you know, a brand side marketer is, um, just like avoidance is not a strategy, like standing still is not a strategy.
00:24:09.238 --> 00:24:12.478
If you aren't moving you're going to, you're gonna sink really fast
00:24:15.008 --> 00:24:15.928
And I would chime in.
00:24:15.928 --> 00:24:23.698
I think this notion that the mandate is still clear that we're here as agency partners to our brands to drive performance.
00:24:23.948 --> 00:24:27.928
So I think that if they could see us in the room having those conversations, it's really about that.
00:24:28.097 --> 00:24:29.448
But there's this bias towards action.
00:24:29.448 --> 00:24:32.988
I l- I love what Pat just said, that, you know, we need to take risks and lean in.
00:24:33.048 --> 00:24:38.278
And, you know, when you asked earlier about were there moments you wanted to call the team and talk about this or that, there were.
00:24:38.288 --> 00:24:57.268
There were technology solutions where I sat down perhaps, saying,"I'm not gonna like what I'm about to hear," or,"I, I already know everything about this thing." I'm like,"No, this was really interesting, and it's also very accessible, either the way that it was priced or the way we can kind of graft it onto our technology stack." So I would say we're in the room advocating for them.
00:24:57.548 --> 00:25:05.847
They also need to sort of own their part, which is allow for some of that flexibility to try new things and, um, and again, that bias towards action.
00:25:05.847 --> 00:25:06.657
Let's try new things.
00:25:06.657 --> 00:25:07.538
Let's see what happens.
00:25:07.738 --> 00:25:08.718
And that's the world we're in.
00:25:08.718 --> 00:25:11.278
It's not these big sort of monolithic technology initiatives.
00:25:11.518 --> 00:25:13.698
These-- the cycle has been compressed a lot.
00:25:14.337 --> 00:25:22.248
Staying with the, the brand side marketers, you know, if they're talking to agencies, we'd said before that it's like, yes, we use electricity and we use AI.
00:25:22.248 --> 00:25:23.428
It's 2026, right?
00:25:23.428 --> 00:25:24.157
That's the given.
00:25:24.817 --> 00:25:27.077
So what should they be asking then?
00:25:27.137 --> 00:25:33.188
If the question's not, are you using AI, what questions should they be talking to their agencies about right now?
00:25:37.031 --> 00:25:42.892
I mean, for me and maybe this sounds a little bit sort of old school, but it goes back to, how are we thinking about growing our business?
00:25:42.892 --> 00:25:44.652
How are we thinking about engaging customers?
00:25:44.652 --> 00:25:57.192
Like, it goes back to the AI tool should help drive a strong business and a strong brand, and that's the, that's sort of the, um, the end in mind that we should be thinking about, putting the customer first.
00:25:57.192 --> 00:26:01.912
I actually went to some sessions where I think it was The Female Quotient, they always run great content.
00:26:02.162 --> 00:26:08.961
They had a few different retailers and grocery brands up there, and all of the conversation was about the behavior of the end customer.
00:26:09.132 --> 00:26:10.771
How are customers behaving differently?
00:26:10.932 --> 00:26:12.801
How are they using technology differently?
00:26:12.971 --> 00:26:13.922
This is a fun example.
00:26:13.922 --> 00:26:17.321
I think I put this in my blog, but it's you know, no one searches for banana.
00:26:17.321 --> 00:26:26.892
They're searching for,"I need to figure out which type of banana is best for this banana bread." And whoever answers that question best is gonna sort of get, get the attention there.
00:26:26.892 --> 00:26:36.751
So I think understanding, using technology to understand consumer behavior and how to create a stronger connection with the brand should be the conversation that, that brands are having.
00:26:38.134 --> 00:26:39.834
Yeah, it was, it was fun to be there.
00:26:39.923 --> 00:26:45.294
Incidentally, uh, the new Siri was released to like, you know, the, the elite vanguard of users.
00:26:45.294 --> 00:26:48.604
So Patterson, of course, got new Siri access while we were in France.
00:26:48.614 --> 00:26:56.554
And I got to watch him basically interrogate the capabilities of Siri, you know, as an expert in a...
00:26:56.554 --> 00:26:57.834
Um, my, my phone just turned on.
00:26:57.874 --> 00:27:03.983
It's like,"Hey, are you talking about me?" Um, but as an expert in a, you know, in a very structured way.
00:27:03.983 --> 00:27:08.144
And I, you know, I wonder if if you have some similar examples, Patrick, of what you would ask.
00:27:08.173 --> 00:27:22.213
You know, just like you asked, you know, someone that is, um, like a casual user will go and ask a third party,"Hey, is the new Siri good?" You know, Patterson had sort of a series of questions that allowed him to evaluate different capability sets for himself.
00:27:22.773 --> 00:27:31.233
I wonder if you have some similar types of questions that, you know, that you would ask an agency that was sort of presenting themselves- Yeah as being on the, you know, on the vanguard here.
00:27:32.114 --> 00:27:34.463
Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a really interesting question.
00:27:34.493 --> 00:27:41.263
I think, we go back to i- like innovation's still gonna be important, right?
00:27:41.284 --> 00:27:42.663
Discovery is still important.
00:27:42.663 --> 00:27:44.094
Curiosity is still important.
00:27:44.104 --> 00:27:49.314
So all of these things are reasons you-- one of the reasons you hire an agency.
00:27:49.433 --> 00:27:54.753
We have tested 100 different creative tools, some with AI, some without AI.
00:27:54.753 --> 00:28:04.084
We have implemented dozens of different attribution models and m- media mix models and, and tested off the shelf versus build our own and have a data science team.
00:28:04.364 --> 00:28:11.273
You know, we have, done the John Henry test against p- PMax versus a, you know, n- a manual bidding and all that fun stuff.
00:28:11.314 --> 00:28:12.544
We've done all of this, right?
00:28:12.544 --> 00:28:12.753
We...
00:28:12.794 --> 00:28:15.513
'Cause we, we can do that over and over and over again.
00:28:15.513 --> 00:28:28.723
And I think, so I think, one of the things that we're doing now at the, at the pace of change, was literally just having a conversation about this yesterday we, we have started to build these evaluation processes inside of our of our organization.
00:28:28.723 --> 00:28:38.653
So it's this, standard list of questions that we ask and an expected kind of outcome, and these evals tell us is the new model.
00:28:38.653 --> 00:28:43.644
So Fable 5, you know, depending on when this gets released, but like Fable 5 got re-released this week.
00:28:43.913 --> 00:28:44.463
Excellent.
00:28:44.473 --> 00:28:47.044
So now, now you know when, when we recorded this podcast.
00:28:47.433 --> 00:28:48.403
But like, is it better?
00:28:48.859 --> 00:28:52.059
Is it, uh, is it better than Opus 4.8?
00:28:52.059 --> 00:28:56.390
Uh, is it better than f- uh, GPT 5.5 or the upcoming GPT 5.6?
00:28:56.829 --> 00:28:57.890
And why is it better?
00:28:58.349 --> 00:28:59.039
Is it cheaper?
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.150
Is it more expensive?
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:03.390
And so, is it better at doing certain things?
00:29:03.390 --> 00:29:10.569
And so, like, the way you evaluate, I think technology should be similar to the way you evaluate an agency.
00:29:10.569 --> 00:29:11.690
You should be asking these questions.
00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:13.119
How are you discovering new technology?
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:14.049
How are you testing it?
00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:20.900
How are you determining, uh, safety and privacy and, all of these things, and what's your process for that?
00:29:20.900 --> 00:29:34.930
I think understanding the way that these things get implemented inside an organization is important versus, how did you wrap ChatGPT in a, in a copy, you know, BS app and called it AI, right?
00:29:34.990 --> 00:29:38.119
That's just not how the future of work is gonna be done.
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:57.099
So I think really understanding from your agency"Hey, what, what's your system for evaluating the new technology when it comes out?" And if you don't have a good answer to that in 20- July 1st, 2026, uh, you're, uh, you're gonna have a problem, I think the, the, the- Yeah you know, the rest of the year and, and next year for sure.
00:29:57.710 --> 00:30:13.839
You know, asking-- So thinking about the cus- how consumer behavior is changing and asking questions of, you know, the agency around how they're you know, how they're leaned in on, you know, the ad products that are, you know, that are leaning in on that consumer behavior.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:23.009
Obviously that's things like AI Max with Google, but, you know, it's also, you know, there's-- I think we're entering a new and exciting age.
00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:26.789
A lot of people at Cannes were talking about, business messaging agents, right?
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:32.339
Google has a product, Meta has a product TikTok is, you know, is launching a similar product.
00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:39.440
You know, the, the era of, you know, conversational brands I think is, a very interesting interesting one.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:47.890
And, you know, the agencies that are leaning in on testing experiences in those on those types of surfaces I think will be ahead.
00:30:48.509 --> 00:30:54.759
And then, you know, you think about, like, business, you know, B2 agent type modalities.
00:30:54.759 --> 00:31:12.460
Like, how are you thinking about positioning your brand in a way that's positioned to be, engaged with, understood by, a individual's agent or set of agents is, I think, a really exciting and interesting new frontier.
00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:19.779
So I think these things are the, you know, the, they were, they came up frequently, but in, you know, very sort of preliminary ways.
00:31:19.779 --> 00:31:24.440
I think there's still a lot of white space to, you know, to carve out a real leadership in those areas.
00:31:26.076 --> 00:31:27.675
Patrick, you mentioned hot take earlier.
00:31:27.806 --> 00:31:30.746
I'm curious each of you, if you have a hot take.
00:31:31.036 --> 00:31:32.405
We were there at Cannes this year.
00:31:33.486 --> 00:31:37.675
Let's say you go back next year, assuming it sounds like you loved it, you're gonna go back.
00:31:38.205 --> 00:31:42.415
What do you think's true at next year's Cannes that wasn't true this year?
00:31:42.766 --> 00:31:44.006
It was very hot.
00:31:44.066 --> 00:31:45.165
It was exhausting.
00:31:45.165 --> 00:31:52.316
I think, you know, most of the days I was ready for bed at 8:30 PM, uh, after a day of, a full day of meetings.
00:31:52.385 --> 00:32:04.375
I mentioned, indie, indie agencies independently owned agencies, um, having more of a moment, and I think you're gonna see more and more of that over the next two years is my hot take.
00:32:04.826 --> 00:32:19.076
But I, I also mentioned here I think we're going to continue, which is just so counterintuitive probably to everything that everyone has heard me say about AI for the past five years as I've done keynotes on AI.
00:32:19.415 --> 00:32:24.526
I think we're gonna continue to lean in on this concept of irreplaceably human.
00:32:24.526 --> 00:32:40.182
I think creative's gonna be more important going into next year, and I think, you know, in general, you're gonna see a lot more technology-enabled agencies leaning heavier into the human side of creative as their differentiator over the next year.
00:32:41.586 --> 00:32:44.576
Um, very excited to go back next year.
00:32:44.576 --> 00:32:50.296
I think one of the things we're talking about is how do we expose more of the agency to the Cannes experience, and what does that look like?
00:32:50.296 --> 00:32:54.465
So I think that's really important, whether it's on the creative side, on the technology side.
00:32:54.786 --> 00:32:57.925
So I, I do think that you'll have a lot of the same.
00:32:57.925 --> 00:32:59.875
You'll have a lot of really great, innovative solutions.
00:32:59.885 --> 00:33:05.965
I think, again, the, uh, the bias will be towards how are these solutions really driving value for brands.
00:33:06.276 --> 00:33:07.395
So yeah.
00:33:07.415 --> 00:33:16.205
I'm excited to hopefully go back next year and have some more of my colleagues there along with me learning and questioning and experiencing what I think is a great, a great event put on every year.
00:33:16.205 --> 00:33:16.546
What
00:33:16.546 --> 00:33:17.236
about you, Pat?
00:33:17.236 --> 00:33:18.036
Any hot takes?
00:33:21.481 --> 00:33:32.301
Um, I'm gonna lean in on this indie moment thing because I think we're just, you know, we're entering-- Like, I can hear the civ- the civilization golden music, golden age music playing, uh,"Ode to Joy" in the background.
00:33:32.301 --> 00:33:36.061
I think we're entering, you know, that, that real golden age of, like, the scaled indies.
00:33:36.071 --> 00:33:57.372
So I think that, you know, in a call your shot sort of way, I think we're gonna see more indies winning more gold, uh, and Grand Prix awards in, you know, in the Palais in addition to, you know, just being there and, you know, hoping to be amongst that, uh, uh, you know, a, a, a driver of that trend ourselves.
00:33:57.372 --> 00:34:02.011
But I think just the, you know, the general vibe, I think is gonna continue to shift in that direction.
00:34:03.402 --> 00:34:07.291
And more, um, I think more agency partner collaborations.
00:34:07.321 --> 00:34:11.371
There was a, you know, there was a, or ag- agency media and technology partner collaborations.
00:34:11.382 --> 00:34:20.481
There was a some winning work, I can't remember, uh, what the agency was, but it was in, in partnership with Reddit on the, the I think it was the Dove True Beauty campaign.
00:34:20.952 --> 00:34:23.141
Like it was the Real Reviews campaign.
00:34:23.581 --> 00:34:36.501
And it was, you know, the brand, the agency, but Reddit was, you know, explicitly mentioned and sort of collaborated with from the beginning, and it was about sort of, you know, the ver- the authenticity of real reviews making, you know, positive reviews sound better.
00:34:37.092 --> 00:34:52.092
But I think more of that type of work where it's not just brand, agency, and then, partner activation channels are incidental, but, like, sort of natively, endemically built into the strategy I think is gonna be a really exciting thing.
00:34:53.541 --> 00:34:55.731
So we started this with one word from each of you.
00:34:56.132 --> 00:34:58.802
Uh, similarly, I'd love to end it with one thing.
00:34:59.251 --> 00:35:09.811
So curious for each of you, what's one thing that you're changing in your thinking or your approach because of what you experienced at this year's Cannes Lions?
00:35:11.552 --> 00:35:13.731
Pat, you wanna keep going since you ended out hot takes?
00:35:15.152 --> 00:35:15.422
Sure.
00:35:16.262 --> 00:35:23.271
So I've been having a lot of fun going through the submissions from the, the awards.
00:35:23.702 --> 00:35:34.362
And I, I built a a redux of our, like, case study creation tool that sort of built around what were the commonalities of the, the winning work at Cannes.
00:35:34.452 --> 00:35:38.371
Um, so, thinking about how to really bring forward...
00:35:38.592 --> 00:35:55.751
Our team has these incredible insights that drive incredible decisions every single day and it's so fun to shine a spotlight on those things, but it can get, you know, we're, we're doing so much so frequently, so fast that it, that those individual, like, insight, data-driven insights that drive great work can be missed.
00:35:56.181 --> 00:36:05.291
Um, you know, creating a set of tools to make those insights shine a brighter spotlight on those insights is something that I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be continuing to work on.
00:36:06.612 --> 00:36:06.822
Go ahead.
00:36:07.871 --> 00:36:09.422
I'm gonna go in a slightly different direction.
00:36:09.472 --> 00:36:17.501
I'm gonna use the word permission, and I mean that in a way that my team talks a lot to new potential cu- customers and, and existing customers and clients.
00:36:17.851 --> 00:36:27.452
And permission meaning to really put creative in the forefront and make sure that as performance marketers, we're not just thinking about number of leads and cost per lead and things like that.
00:36:27.452 --> 00:36:32.202
We really are bringing creative back into the forefront and making sure that it's really connected to our strategy.
00:36:32.521 --> 00:36:35.722
I think that that's something that I'm taking away, is that it's not an afterthought.
00:36:35.751 --> 00:36:37.902
It's not something that we revisit from time to time.
00:36:38.331 --> 00:36:40.561
It's really important that these things have to sit together
00:36:42.606 --> 00:36:42.965
Yeah.
00:36:43.005 --> 00:36:51.675
And, last week really reinforced a c- a concept I've actually been kicking around for a month and a half, and maybe, maybe I'll, I'll write a post about it.
00:36:51.775 --> 00:36:55.626
But connection relationships are opt-in.
00:36:56.766 --> 00:37:07.956
You know, I think a lot of times it's easy to sit behind a Slack an iMessage, an email, and wait for people to email you or, uh, reach out to you, and you can respond.
00:37:07.956 --> 00:37:12.606
And I think what I really took away from last week is, you have to opt in to the conversation.
00:37:12.606 --> 00:37:18.615
You have to opt in to wanting to be there, to be in the room, to put yourself out there to ask.
00:37:18.706 --> 00:37:26.206
A lot of times we end an email with,"Let me know if there's anything I can do to help," versus, really that, that's very passive.
00:37:26.246 --> 00:37:32.076
And I think being more assertive, uh, it was really showcased last week for me.
00:37:32.085 --> 00:37:43.985
Like, the moments where I was like,"Hey, Myles, how can I do this for you?" Or, you know, and having a real conversation, those were the, the most meaningful connections and the most meaningful moments in that in-person time.
00:37:43.985 --> 00:37:48.775
And I think so opting into that in-person time and opting into those relationships is one of my huge takeaways.
00:37:49.195 --> 00:37:55.949
All right, everyone, that's a wrap for this episode of Good Enough, Isn't thank you to our panelists for sharing their thoughts and experiences, and thanks to all of you for listening.
00:37:56.498 --> 00:38:02.679
For more conversations like this one, be sure to subscribe to Good Enough, Isn't wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll see you next time.
00:00:00.309 --> 00:00:01.659
Welcome back to Good Enough Isn't.
00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:06.740
This is your host, Myles Biggs, and today we have a special Cannes Lions episode of the podcast for you.
00:00:07.780 --> 00:00:14.359
Every June, the global advertising industry descends on the south of France for Cannes Lions, the world's most prestigious creativity festival.
00:00:15.230 --> 00:00:19.289
Agencies, brand marketers, tech platforms all in one place for a week.
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If you are listening to this and you're not a creative, you might wonder what any of it has to do with you, and that's actually the question driving this whole episode.
00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:36.670
Level sent three people to walk the show this year: Patrick Patterson, our CEO; Howard Diamond, our CRO; and Pat Vangorder, our chief partnerships officer.
00:00:37.109 --> 00:00:41.189
Today's episode, they're all here on a panel diving into their biggest takeaways.
00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:43.229
So let's bring them out and get started.
00:00:43.539 --> 00:00:45.450
Gentlemen, nice to have you on the podcast today.
00:00:45.460 --> 00:00:45.490
Good
00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:46.329
morning.
00:00:46.450 --> 00:00:46.520
What's up?
00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:46.789
Thanks for having us.
00:00:47.070 --> 00:00:48.500
You've really been working on that radio voice.
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It's
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strong.
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Thank you.
00:00:50.649 --> 00:00:54.060
To open up, I thought we could do, like, a quick lightning round question for each of you.
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I'd like you to each describe Cannes Lions for me in one word.
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So Patrick, why don't we start with you?
00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:01.899
I'll do the five.
00:01:01.899 --> 00:01:02.210
Hot.
00:01:02.250 --> 00:01:02.560
Hot.
00:01:02.570 --> 00:01:02.840
Okay.
00:01:03.810 --> 00:01:04.959
It was extremely hot.
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:10.299
It was 20 degrees warmer, uh, than typical uh, in, in for that time of year.
00:01:10.409 --> 00:01:17.510
And so, in a conference that's predominantly outside and all of the meetings are outside, it was hot.
00:01:17.849 --> 00:01:22.489
And so I'll, I'll let Howard and Pat give- more pithy answers, but that's my quick response.
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I know
00:01:22.900 --> 00:01:22.920
it.
00:01:23.709 --> 00:01:24.390
So I'm gonna cheat.
00:01:24.390 --> 00:01:25.640
I'm gonna use two wor- Yeah.
00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:26.519
I, I'm gonna use two words.
00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:34.459
I'm gonna say full circle, because this was my first time coming with Level, and I had been here previously, but I had met the Level folks about a year ago.
00:01:34.459 --> 00:01:42.530
So it was, like, a full circle moment for me, and really fun, really fortunate to be going again and with, with my colleagues here from Level.
00:01:43.299 --> 00:01:44.650
And I'll go with unique.
00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:46.420
I, I didn't know what to expect.
00:01:46.420 --> 00:01:55.609
This was my first time, Patrick's first time too, so, you know, it was-- there was a little bit of, um, what is this whole thing that everyone is talking about?
00:01:55.659 --> 00:01:58.719
And, WTF is the, is gonna be the value for us?
00:01:58.750 --> 00:02:06.810
And I was blown away, pleasantly surprised by sort of the serendipity and uniqueness of the whole affair, which I'm excited to unpack together today.
00:02:06.810 --> 00:02:07.049
Yeah.
00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:08.560
Yeah.
00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:14.439
You can try to explain, you know, what Cannes is all about, but until you're actually there and experience it it, it's a completely different thing.
00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:14.449
I
00:02:14.449 --> 00:02:21.659
feel like hot, full circle, unique is gonna be a great a great name for this podcast when it, when this finally airs.
00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:26.800
Uh, but so Pat, back to what you just said, you know, the, like, what is the value in all of this?
00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:29.259
Having gone now, what was the value in all of it?
00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:32.009
Now that you're back, what's the key learnings?
00:02:34.241 --> 00:02:36.921
Patrick, so something you said I think was really interesting.
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We, we, you know, we were, we were kinda playing around with this idea over the course of the week, trying to figure out where the, where the magic was.
00:02:43.961 --> 00:02:48.551
I think first, like, a lot of-- I won't say everyone is there, that sounds obnoxious.
00:02:48.581 --> 00:02:55.912
Um, but, like, a lot of people were there, and a lot of very, very smart people that were, very interesting and engaged and leaned in.
00:02:56.472 --> 00:03:07.961
Patrick, you mentioned the time difference thing, so, like, the fact that we were all, five to eight hours ahead of our teams back stateside meant that there was less sort of a distraction.
00:03:07.961 --> 00:03:10.551
I don't know about you guys, but, like, when I'm at conferences, like, my...
00:03:10.592 --> 00:03:16.831
the work does not stop, and I know, you know, Howard was taking pitches from the, from the Croisset.
00:03:17.382 --> 00:03:24.681
Um, but you know, it was just, it was kind of a, like a s- a sacred space some, in some ways, kinda carved out.
00:03:24.741 --> 00:03:27.062
You know, people weren't on their phones in the same ways.
00:03:27.162 --> 00:03:28.741
Yeah, so those were two, two factors.
00:03:28.741 --> 00:03:30.062
What do you guys, what do you guys think?
00:03:30.951 --> 00:03:35.572
I agree that the, um, the fact that it's at that time allows you to be really focused.
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At the same time, no one feels sorry for you that you're also then getting on calls at midnight or 1:00 in the morning to talk to your team, because the rosé and the fun meals and all that are supposed to make up for that.
00:03:44.872 --> 00:03:53.282
But I think it is unique, and it allows you to kinda live in that dual world of, you know, relationships and thought leadership and having fun, and then also checking in on the real world.
00:03:54.592 --> 00:03:54.891
Yeah.
00:03:54.891 --> 00:04:21.151
And, and Myles, I think, you know, as, as I think I've said on the podcast before, like, in 2026, trying to figure out what is irreplaceably human in what we're doing, and, you know, in the past six years, going from 100% Zoom to now AI and everything getting replaced in what we're doing and automated, I think, like, what was really unique was, like, Can- Canline by itself is irreplaceably human.
00:04:21.252 --> 00:04:27.252
It is about the human and everything, and yes, we talked about AI, and yes, we talked about advertising, and yes, we're gonna...
00:04:27.291 --> 00:04:28.411
we talked about all those things.
00:04:28.781 --> 00:04:42.771
But, like, the human aspect, the touch the being able to touch f- touch the table with folks and have those relationships and those conversations in a way that, yes it, you know, because our teams are six hours behind or, you know, it's different.
00:04:43.132 --> 00:04:56.492
But, it i- it, it really kind of underscored to me the importance of one-to-one connection, in person, and we all know it's important, but I think the week really showed, showcased to me, like, how important it is.
00:04:56.552 --> 00:04:59.531
Yeah, no, that phrase, irreplaceably human, is something we're...
00:05:00.192 --> 00:05:02.351
It keeps coming up in all of our conversations at Level.
00:05:03.002 --> 00:05:07.432
Did you feel like that was a shared thought by other attendees?
00:05:07.471 --> 00:05:14.302
Or when you were interacting with other leaders across companies, folks had a different opinion, and you found yourself in some friendly debates?
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Yeah, I think, I think we're all trying to figure it out.
00:05:18.793 --> 00:05:24.764
I would say some of the best conversations I had during the week were debating what is irreplaceably human.
00:05:24.764 --> 00:05:25.413
Is it taste?
00:05:25.413 --> 00:05:26.093
Is it judgment?
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Is it curiosity?
00:05:26.954 --> 00:05:27.733
Is it relationship?
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Is it connection?
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You know, there was, there was one agency leader I was, I was arguing with that said, you know,"Judgment is not irreplaceably human," that we can have, uh, machines do the judgment for us.
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We can have machines, uh, mimic taste for us.
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And so I think we're all, as, business folks, advertisers, creatives, we're all trying to figure out where do we fit as we hold our breath on, on what's gonna get automated next.
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And, I think everyone has a little bit of a different answer, and I also think that answer to that question is gonna be what separates your company from other companies as we go forward and we all get better and better technology underneath what we do.
00:06:04.564 --> 00:06:05.303
Yeah, I think the-
00:06:05.314 --> 00:06:05.524
I-
00:06:05.584 --> 00:06:06.553
Oh, go ahead, Howard.
00:06:07.704 --> 00:06:13.483
Well, I was gonna say, I think, um, taking it in a little bit of a different direction, this also gets into the dichotomy of Cannes itself.
00:06:13.514 --> 00:06:25.343
That Cannes, again, is this sort of creative festival where you have the Palais, which is where they house the creative awards and all the great work, and you have creatives literally on panels talking about the work they did with their hands in conference rooms.
00:06:25.343 --> 00:06:30.454
It doesn't mean they didn't use technology or data, but it's a very different sort of creator mentality.
00:06:30.543 --> 00:06:35.723
Then you go out to the beach, and it's all the media companies talking about technology and AI and things like that.
00:06:35.723 --> 00:06:42.713
So when you talk about irreplaceably human there is this, uh, dichotomy that's happening, but at the end, they should really be connected together.
00:06:42.713 --> 00:06:52.194
So I just think it's, uh, it's a really strong observation in a year where, you know, agentic is, is the number one buzzword, but at the end of the day, creative and media really need to sit together
00:06:53.579 --> 00:07:02.819
I think these are still people that are, thinking about what their place in this future is, right?
00:07:02.819 --> 00:07:06.800
And I think that's why I love the enunciation of irreplaceably human.
00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:19.180
I think it's, I think it is a great, essential view of the anxiety that people are feeling because I think they're trying to, you know, they're trying to put a finger on it and ask,"Do I have it?
00:07:19.230 --> 00:07:30.990
Do I, you know, do I have that, that, that capability that is irreplaceably human?" And I do think that, you know, there's, there's a very legitimate sort of span of argument about what that entails.
00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:55.019
But I think, you know, the, the being in sort of the room where that conversation is happening in real time and where, you know, if you think about a lot of the, the frontier, like actual consumer applications of AI, you know, it is in the marketing, in consumer, you know, experience space, and it's really interesting and edifying to be sort of on the, in the room where those conversations are happening.
00:07:56.060 --> 00:08:05.199
Was there ever one of those conversations that you're talking about, Pat, where you left it going"I know I'm eight hours ahead, but like our team has to hear this right now or our clients need to hear about this.
00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:07.699
Like this is, this is something that really resonated"?
00:08:10.028 --> 00:08:13.447
I think we were all taking a fairly journalistic approach.
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Our nerd-in-chief, Patrick, of course, sp- spun up a, uh, spun up like a, an agentic hub that was basically, you know, taking all of our our notes and transcripts in and ingesting it.
00:08:24.687 --> 00:08:31.237
Um, so we were all kinda taking a very journalistic approach and then sharing out with our team as we were- teams as we were talking about stuff.
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Um, I think, you know, some of the interesting things that feel like they are still sorta unsettled territory you know, we heard a variety of opinions from different, um, ad platforms around, like, AI-generated influencer sort of dynamics.
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So, you know, I think you've got one camp that's saying,"Hey, like, uh, we- we're gonna draw the line at you know, AI-generated humans at, you know, in a, a consumer context." Then you've got other folks that are like,"No, it's just a matter of time until you know, there is effective AI-generated, influencers, and you see some of this already, right?
00:09:07.552 --> 00:09:07.572
Yeah.
00:09:07.572 --> 00:09:11.892
This is not novel, but, like, thinking about that at scale in, in a brand sponsor context.
00:09:11.892 --> 00:09:19.591
But those types of things I think are the interesting, like, um, unsettled territories right now one example of that.
00:09:20.562 --> 00:09:20.881
Yeah.
00:09:20.912 --> 00:09:23.721
I don't know about you and, uh, you, Pat and Howard.
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I miss Cannes Bot.
00:09:24.871 --> 00:09:25.662
You know- All right.
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Yeah.
00:09:26.052 --> 00:09:31.422
we, we had C- we had Cannes Bot that was messaging us during the day, telling us where we needed to be.
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We could send it notes.
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It would parse everything.
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That was fun.
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You know, I think, Howard, uh, you know, we talked about this a little bit, but, like, the, uh, this idea that AI was going to be the phrase of Cannes, right?
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And, like, this thing that everyone's gonna be talking about at AI, AI, and of c- and of course we talked about AI.
00:09:52.201 --> 00:10:01.471
But I think, like, what was really fascinating, I, and I believe I made three or four phone calls after, you know, I was in a, a meeting with one of our partners about this.
00:10:01.892 --> 00:10:24.072
You know, sitting in a room with some of the, some of not some of the top agencies in the world, and, the question comes up of,"How are your clients expecting you to use AI?" And the answer was,"Well, six months ago we had to explain it, and now it's just expected." And there's this idea that this has shifted very quickly, and, like, six months is a fast time for something to shift.
00:10:24.471 --> 00:10:32.761
Uh, you know, and so, like, I would say back in January, and Howard you're on the front lines in this, in, in, in what you do, but, like, clients were asking, like,"How are you using it?
00:10:32.782 --> 00:10:33.532
What are you doing?
00:10:33.532 --> 00:10:34.272
What are the tools?
00:10:34.272 --> 00:10:37.101
Where are all the things?" And now today it's,"How do you generate value?
00:10:37.111 --> 00:10:38.231
How are you getting results?
00:10:38.241 --> 00:10:45.751
How are you getting ROI?" Not that they didn't care about that, but I think there was more pressure to figure it out six months ago, and now it's like electricity, the internet, and air.
00:10:45.861 --> 00:10:51.822
Yes, we're going to use AI just like we use all those other things to create great work, but now how do you get results, right?
00:10:51.822 --> 00:10:52.111
Yeah.
00:10:52.162 --> 00:10:55.402
And I think that was a very interesting paradigm shift for me.
00:10:56.351 --> 00:10:57.532
Yeah, I think it's expected.
00:10:57.532 --> 00:11:04.751
I mean, the, the, the maturity is happening where, again, it comes back to what value is this adding to the relationship, to the campaign?
00:11:04.761 --> 00:11:06.341
How is it affecting the end customer?
00:11:06.341 --> 00:11:09.322
So I think that evolution has happened very quickly, I agree.
00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.269
I think that showed up in the work that, that won awards too.
00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:25.769
A couple of the, the standout pieces that, that I saw were not about AI or, you know, even like highly visible AI for the sake of it.
00:11:25.769 --> 00:11:28.909
It was about what the, you know, what the capabilities power.
00:11:28.909 --> 00:11:42.470
There was an awesome, uh, lucky fan index project I think BML did for a, a Polish league football club where they basically, you know, brute force ML like, uh, in this league, everyone has to...
00:11:42.659 --> 00:11:52.350
They have a record of who's at every game, so they could tell who the luckiest fan was- Oh, that's fun who, you know, whose attendance was most correlated with, the best outcomes and who was the unluckiest fan.
00:11:52.700 --> 00:12:01.679
That obviously you know, more of an ML technique, but then they were able to sort of personalize the outreach to each individual fan based on their lucky fan index.
00:12:01.950 --> 00:12:15.840
But it wasn't about, you know, the fact that,"Oh, we're, we're using AI to do this." It's we're having a really, one-to-one conversation based on this, you know, sense of belonging that, you know, that, that I think was what, what tilted the judges on it
00:12:17.101 --> 00:12:23.111
To, to take it in a slightly different direction, so Level actually submitted work this year, and it was our first time, and it was amazing work.
00:12:23.131 --> 00:12:25.652
And we weren't shortlisted, which is okay.
00:12:25.871 --> 00:12:32.062
And it's funny because the company of, of brands that we were not shortlisted in is a, is an amazing list of companies.
00:12:32.062 --> 00:12:33.991
I mean, just awesome global brands.
00:12:34.302 --> 00:12:42.932
And one of the things that I was sort of set up, set out to do was to understand for our team what it takes to win a Cannes Lion and do some research, and I sat in, on some panels.
00:12:43.261 --> 00:12:49.611
And one of the panels I went to, they talked about, like, what actually is required to deliver winning work to win at Cannes.
00:12:49.892 --> 00:12:56.751
And one of the judges started talking about,"We'll start with reverse engineering the criteria for the award." And I immediately started thinking of AI.
00:12:56.761 --> 00:13:02.182
Okay, we can build an analysis tool, and we can sort of reverse engineer, you know, what, what that path looks like.
00:13:02.192 --> 00:13:07.951
Of course, um, doesn't mean it doesn't take human taste and judgment to get there, but you can definitely apply a technology lens.
00:13:08.402 --> 00:13:10.312
And then another judge interrupted and said,"No, no, no.
00:13:10.312 --> 00:13:11.312
It's all about the customer.
00:13:11.312 --> 00:13:19.101
It's all about what's on the other end of the ad." I think that even that struggle on stage kind of represents, you know, what's, what's happening in the marketplace.
00:13:19.111 --> 00:13:28.532
Surely you can immediately graft on a technology and AI approach, but at the end of the day, you need to be thinking about the human on the other end of the ad and what impact that's gonna have.
00:13:28.542 --> 00:13:41.261
So I thought that was very interesting and kind of, again, um, apropos for what was going on between this giant creative festival right next to this giant technology media festival, where some of the people didn't know they were both happening next to each other.
00:13:41.741 --> 00:13:42.802
Yeah, I think it's really interesting.
00:13:42.802 --> 00:13:47.461
I was talking to someone who, had, has been to Cannes for the past 15 years.
00:13:47.662 --> 00:13:52.751
And 15 years ago, Howard, it was purely a creative festival, right?
00:13:52.772 --> 00:13:57.201
There, there wasn't two parties, uh, you know, working, you know, working in parallel.
00:13:57.201 --> 00:14:03.032
So, and then the past six years, seven years, it's really been taken over by the media companies.
00:14:03.032 --> 00:14:11.091
You've seen the companies like Google and Spotify and Meta come in, um, with the Snapchat museum now, uh, which is, which is crazy.
00:14:11.341 --> 00:14:29.192
And I think, you know, as I was talking to this, this person, they were like,"You know, this is the first year in many years where it's started to come back as a creative conference." And it, and'cause creative, I think, is now more important than ever when it comes to media, right?
00:14:29.192 --> 00:14:39.721
So it's this, you know, I, I know Google was talking about brandformance, but it's this combination of creativity and media and performance all coming into, to one spot.
00:14:39.721 --> 00:14:47.912
So I think as you think about advertising agencies and you think about where we fit in the confluence of those three things and technology.
00:14:47.912 --> 00:14:50.052
There was ad tech was there, OpenAI and Claude were there.
00:14:50.381 --> 00:14:53.381
We're kind of in the middle of all of those things as an agency.
00:14:53.731 --> 00:15:04.881
Like, how important do you think it is, and I'm just curious, like, for agencies like us to submit work to Cannes and to really be a part of that creative story and not just the media story?
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:11.279
I think I, I wanna focus first on this notion of the importance of creative.
00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:27.820
I think in a world where everyone has access to different types of agentic tools, you know, value-based bidding, different types of algorithmic, uh, buying strategies, if everyone is using similar technology, then what becomes that lever that is different across brands that are perhaps competitors?
00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:29.299
And that is where creative comes in.
00:15:29.629 --> 00:15:42.330
So I think creative is super important, and you can arrive, you can arrive at creative decisions through technology and data insights, but having the ability to actually produce great creative that resonates with humans emotionally is really important.
00:15:42.730 --> 00:15:47.240
I think to the extent that awards are important, I think there are different opinions there.
00:15:47.549 --> 00:16:03.289
I definitely think it's really cool for agencies to submit work because it shows how awesome their teams are, how just the amazing work that they're doing, whether they win or lose, it sort of creates attention and awareness of this great work that they're doing.
00:16:03.509 --> 00:16:06.350
Also, I think it's a great moment for the brands, the customers themselves.
00:16:06.350 --> 00:16:10.070
It's really about them, that they have partnered together with us.
00:16:10.210 --> 00:16:13.600
They've given us the flexibility, the liberty, uh, the freedom.
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:14.809
They're taking risks.
00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:17.990
I think that's another big part of creative is taking risks to do great work.
00:16:17.990 --> 00:16:23.299
So I think that to the extent that we're illuminating those stories, it's really important.
00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:31.399
I think at the end of the day, if you look at who actually wins awards, and Pat and I were chatting about this, it's a lot of very large global agencies and global brands.
00:16:31.429 --> 00:16:33.139
And- Today I don't know- Today is Today.
00:16:33.149 --> 00:16:33.220
Right?
00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:33.909
Yeah.
00:16:34.409 --> 00:17:01.957
And I think, I think that distinction, so, like, it is large global holdco agencies and, and I think, hot take here, Myles, I think we're gonna see more and more indies smaller, nimbler, agencies that are coming into this moment and now have access to these demo- democratized tools and democratized data.
00:17:02.268 --> 00:17:04.847
And, you know, it used to be, and I'll just say it out loud, right?
00:17:05.107 --> 00:17:13.367
Holdcos used to hold all of the keys to the best media buys and the best technology and the best everything because they had all the money.
00:17:13.847 --> 00:17:23.137
And so when you have the best of everything, the technology, the information, the best of everything, it's easy to command to- and work with the best brands.
00:17:23.147 --> 00:17:40.627
I think what we're seeing now and why a lot of holdcos are, are scared is, smaller organizations that are 200, 500, even 1,000 employees kinda in that, in that size range now have access to the same buying power, the same tech- the same technology, the same information.
00:17:40.988 --> 00:17:53.188
And I think while maybe it was 95% large agencies today, I think as we go forward, we're gonna see more and more indies, indies coming in and really disrupting what- Yeah what's happening here.
00:17:53.198 --> 00:17:54.807
I know, Pat, you have a strong take on that.
00:17:54.897 --> 00:17:56.008
I do, and I, and I wanna...
00:17:56.347 --> 00:18:30.528
Let me come back to the indie thing in a second'cause I think on the earlier question around do these awards matter one of the most interesting things I heard, and I, I don't have the data to actually check this, but it was you know, somebody very smart and compelling sharing it was that they did a, you know, they did a a correlative association study and they, you know, they, they looked at, like, what campaigns won awards and correlated it with business impact and, like, real business impact as much as it was measurable, and they found, a very, very close you know, connection between award-winning work and actually driving businesses forward.
00:18:30.528 --> 00:18:41.077
So I thought that was interesting and, you know, remembering that it's not, like, great work is not worth celebrating on its, by itself.
00:18:41.107 --> 00:18:49.688
It's the fact that great work drives great business outcomes, and that whole picture is, you know, is what I think, you know, Cannes Lions is, is trying to celebrate.
00:18:49.688 --> 00:18:55.587
So I think that's why, you know, this is a good aspirational space for for brands and, and indies.
00:18:55.587 --> 00:19:11.637
And I do think, like, the in- the brands and agencies, and I think the, you know, the intentionality of, insight action result and, you know, really approaching it, you know, not just around like,"Hey, we're, you know, we're gonna do good marketing," right?
00:19:11.637 --> 00:19:33.738
"We're gonna do good foundational, fundamental performance or digital marketing." But no, we're gonna look at, we're gonna look at this problem, we're gonna look at this growth, this brand's growth objective and identify, you know, something new that somebody else hasn't seen before or seen as clearly, and then we're going to, build a wedge around that insight and, you know, deploy it in a way that, that drives outsized business growth and value.
00:19:33.748 --> 00:19:37.407
Like that to me is, is the magic of this type of, awards show.
00:19:38.498 --> 00:19:46.407
I think on the indie side Patrick, yeah, it was-- I mean, it was awesome to see the range of, scaled indie agencies that were there.
00:19:46.417 --> 00:20:02.248
Like there were, there were a lot of us, um, that were, you know, there's probably what, you know, 10 or 15 sort of that are in this, um, this power indie or scaling indie category that, you know, that we're, you know, proud to be on the vanguard of, and seems like all of them were there.
00:20:02.357 --> 00:20:06.827
You know, I won't, I won't shout out all the all the names because we're, we are frenemies after all.
00:20:07.268 --> 00:20:29.347
Um, but it's definitely, you know, it is definitely neat to you know, sort of see the investment and the understanding that like both from the indies up, like the indies saying,"Hey, there's value here for me to be here and be part of this conversation." And then, you know, from the brands and the tech and media platforms down saying the indies are able to do something here that, the holdcos can't do.
00:20:29.397 --> 00:20:31.248
They're able to move really fast.
00:20:31.637 --> 00:20:38.577
They're able to, to take insight and apply it and scale it across, you know, their portfolio really quickly.
00:20:38.907 --> 00:20:42.917
I think that is leading to us being on the vanguard of a lot of really exciting conversations.
00:20:45.195 --> 00:20:45.685
Yeah, I agree.
00:20:45.685 --> 00:20:53.205
I think this was the year of the indie agency, not just sort of showing up, uh, as attendees and people that are sitting in the audience, but being on stage.
00:20:53.455 --> 00:21:06.355
A huge moment of pride was seeing you, Pat, on the, uh, the panel with PubMatic, and not only that we were sort of the first, uh, indie agency using their agenda capabilities, but it was all about the actual outcomes, if I could plug the work we're doing.
00:21:06.605 --> 00:21:14.306
And I think that's very representative of what's happening right now, that the holdcos, to Patrick's point, they don't have the market cornered on some of these capabilities.
00:21:14.336 --> 00:21:37.586
And with a lot of the new technology solutions out there, and I think I went in with a much more open mind this year talking to a lot of these vendors, that both with the agenda capabilities a lot of agencies are building and some of the tools that are out there in the marketplace, we could put together some really innovative solutions for clients and do it in a much more nimble and, you know, and s- fast way to bring those to market.
00:21:37.586 --> 00:21:40.155
So I, I was very excited about that whole aspect.
00:21:40.516 --> 00:21:43.026
It wasn't like we're sort of peering in from the outside.
00:21:43.036 --> 00:21:45.806
We're squarely part of the conversation this year, and that was really cool.
00:21:46.756 --> 00:21:56.385
Yeah, and, like, to your point on, on frenemies, Pat some of the best conversations I think I had all, all week were with what w- most would consider competitors.
00:21:56.476 --> 00:21:56.756
Yep.
00:21:56.855 --> 00:22:17.415
And, you know, I h- w- talking to the CEO of an organization, you know, we w- you know, one, one, literally in one breath it was,"Hey, uh, you guys took this account from us." I w- and, and in the other breath it was like,"Yeah, we-- and, and you took this account from us," and, you know, like, and, like, and it was, like, camaraderie and not competitive.
00:22:17.526 --> 00:22:24.685
And and then it was like, okay, well, there's, there's a lot we can learn from each other, I think, and a lot we can do together.
00:22:24.855 --> 00:22:30.046
And I think, the collective of us is also really, really powerful, right?
00:22:30.405 --> 00:22:32.665
Um, when-- that's the other thing.
00:22:32.816 --> 00:22:37.566
When you have 10,000 people at a holdco or 20,000 people or 30,000 people, you get that collective.
00:22:37.935 --> 00:22:53.536
And so I think, you know, the times where there were 10 indie agencies in a closed, you know, in a closed panel talking those were some of the most valuable conversations,'cause it's-- we realize, like, if we can share our best practices, we all become better, and I think that's really exciting.
00:22:54.326 --> 00:22:57.955
So for non-agency marketers listening, right?
00:22:57.955 --> 00:23:08.625
If I'm a marketing leader in an organization, if they could have sat in on that conversation that you're talking about, the indie agencies and what we're all doing, what should they be taking away?
00:23:08.675 --> 00:23:12.105
What should they be changing and doing differently in this coming quarter?
00:23:16.178 --> 00:23:19.107
I'll hop off on this, um, Myles.
00:23:19.107 --> 00:23:42.428
I think the speed and the pace of play is the biggest thing right now, and it's less about being 100% right and 100% certain, and it's more about being willing to lean into this incredibly disrupted moment where everything is changing and everything is changing.
00:23:42.428 --> 00:23:51.637
You know, Patterson's six-month, um, window, like six month is like a lifetime now, whereas that used to be what, you know, two QBRs.
00:23:52.488 --> 00:23:53.448
Still two QBRs.
00:23:53.688 --> 00:24:09.238
But the pace of travel is just so, accelerated and I think, um, you know, the best advice that I would give to, you know, a brand side marketer is, um, just like avoidance is not a strategy, like standing still is not a strategy.
00:24:09.238 --> 00:24:12.478
If you aren't moving you're going to, you're gonna sink really fast
00:24:15.008 --> 00:24:15.928
And I would chime in.
00:24:15.928 --> 00:24:23.698
I think this notion that the mandate is still clear that we're here as agency partners to our brands to drive performance.
00:24:23.948 --> 00:24:27.928
So I think that if they could see us in the room having those conversations, it's really about that.
00:24:28.097 --> 00:24:29.448
But there's this bias towards action.
00:24:29.448 --> 00:24:32.988
I l- I love what Pat just said, that, you know, we need to take risks and lean in.
00:24:33.048 --> 00:24:38.278
And, you know, when you asked earlier about were there moments you wanted to call the team and talk about this or that, there were.
00:24:38.288 --> 00:24:57.268
There were technology solutions where I sat down perhaps, saying,"I'm not gonna like what I'm about to hear," or,"I, I already know everything about this thing." I'm like,"No, this was really interesting, and it's also very accessible, either the way that it was priced or the way we can kind of graft it onto our technology stack." So I would say we're in the room advocating for them.
00:24:57.548 --> 00:25:05.847
They also need to sort of own their part, which is allow for some of that flexibility to try new things and, um, and again, that bias towards action.
00:25:05.847 --> 00:25:06.657
Let's try new things.
00:25:06.657 --> 00:25:07.538
Let's see what happens.
00:25:07.738 --> 00:25:08.718
And that's the world we're in.
00:25:08.718 --> 00:25:11.278
It's not these big sort of monolithic technology initiatives.
00:25:11.518 --> 00:25:13.698
These-- the cycle has been compressed a lot.
00:25:14.337 --> 00:25:22.248
Staying with the, the brand side marketers, you know, if they're talking to agencies, we'd said before that it's like, yes, we use electricity and we use AI.
00:25:22.248 --> 00:25:23.428
It's 2026, right?
00:25:23.428 --> 00:25:24.157
That's the given.
00:25:24.817 --> 00:25:27.077
So what should they be asking then?
00:25:27.137 --> 00:25:33.188
If the question's not, are you using AI, what questions should they be talking to their agencies about right now?
00:25:37.031 --> 00:25:42.892
I mean, for me and maybe this sounds a little bit sort of old school, but it goes back to, how are we thinking about growing our business?
00:25:42.892 --> 00:25:44.652
How are we thinking about engaging customers?
00:25:44.652 --> 00:25:57.192
Like, it goes back to the AI tool should help drive a strong business and a strong brand, and that's the, that's sort of the, um, the end in mind that we should be thinking about, putting the customer first.
00:25:57.192 --> 00:26:01.912
I actually went to some sessions where I think it was The Female Quotient, they always run great content.
00:26:02.162 --> 00:26:08.961
They had a few different retailers and grocery brands up there, and all of the conversation was about the behavior of the end customer.
00:26:09.132 --> 00:26:10.771
How are customers behaving differently?
00:26:10.932 --> 00:26:12.801
How are they using technology differently?
00:26:12.971 --> 00:26:13.922
This is a fun example.
00:26:13.922 --> 00:26:17.321
I think I put this in my blog, but it's you know, no one searches for banana.
00:26:17.321 --> 00:26:26.892
They're searching for,"I need to figure out which type of banana is best for this banana bread." And whoever answers that question best is gonna sort of get, get the attention there.
00:26:26.892 --> 00:26:36.751
So I think understanding, using technology to understand consumer behavior and how to create a stronger connection with the brand should be the conversation that, that brands are having.
00:26:38.134 --> 00:26:39.834
Yeah, it was, it was fun to be there.
00:26:39.923 --> 00:26:45.294
Incidentally, uh, the new Siri was released to like, you know, the, the elite vanguard of users.
00:26:45.294 --> 00:26:48.604
So Patterson, of course, got new Siri access while we were in France.
00:26:48.614 --> 00:26:56.554
And I got to watch him basically interrogate the capabilities of Siri, you know, as an expert in a...
00:26:56.554 --> 00:26:57.834
Um, my, my phone just turned on.
00:26:57.874 --> 00:27:03.983
It's like,"Hey, are you talking about me?" Um, but as an expert in a, you know, in a very structured way.
00:27:03.983 --> 00:27:08.144
And I, you know, I wonder if if you have some similar examples, Patrick, of what you would ask.
00:27:08.173 --> 00:27:22.213
You know, just like you asked, you know, someone that is, um, like a casual user will go and ask a third party,"Hey, is the new Siri good?" You know, Patterson had sort of a series of questions that allowed him to evaluate different capability sets for himself.
00:27:22.773 --> 00:27:31.233
I wonder if you have some similar types of questions that, you know, that you would ask an agency that was sort of presenting themselves- Yeah as being on the, you know, on the vanguard here.
00:27:32.114 --> 00:27:34.463
Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a really interesting question.
00:27:34.493 --> 00:27:41.263
I think, we go back to i- like innovation's still gonna be important, right?
00:27:41.284 --> 00:27:42.663
Discovery is still important.
00:27:42.663 --> 00:27:44.094
Curiosity is still important.
00:27:44.104 --> 00:27:49.314
So all of these things are reasons you-- one of the reasons you hire an agency.
00:27:49.433 --> 00:27:54.753
We have tested 100 different creative tools, some with AI, some without AI.
00:27:54.753 --> 00:28:04.084
We have implemented dozens of different attribution models and m- media mix models and, and tested off the shelf versus build our own and have a data science team.
00:28:04.364 --> 00:28:11.273
You know, we have, done the John Henry test against p- PMax versus a, you know, n- a manual bidding and all that fun stuff.
00:28:11.314 --> 00:28:12.544
We've done all of this, right?
00:28:12.544 --> 00:28:12.753
We...
00:28:12.794 --> 00:28:15.513
'Cause we, we can do that over and over and over again.
00:28:15.513 --> 00:28:28.723
And I think, so I think, one of the things that we're doing now at the, at the pace of change, was literally just having a conversation about this yesterday we, we have started to build these evaluation processes inside of our of our organization.
00:28:28.723 --> 00:28:38.653
So it's this, standard list of questions that we ask and an expected kind of outcome, and these evals tell us is the new model.
00:28:38.653 --> 00:28:43.644
So Fable 5, you know, depending on when this gets released, but like Fable 5 got re-released this week.
00:28:43.913 --> 00:28:44.463
Excellent.
00:28:44.473 --> 00:28:47.044
So now, now you know when, when we recorded this podcast.
00:28:47.433 --> 00:28:48.403
But like, is it better?
00:28:48.859 --> 00:28:52.059
Is it, uh, is it better than Opus 4.8?
00:28:52.059 --> 00:28:56.390
Uh, is it better than f- uh, GPT 5.5 or the upcoming GPT 5.6?
00:28:56.829 --> 00:28:57.890
And why is it better?
00:28:58.349 --> 00:28:59.039
Is it cheaper?
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.150
Is it more expensive?
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:03.390
And so, is it better at doing certain things?
00:29:03.390 --> 00:29:10.569
And so, like, the way you evaluate, I think technology should be similar to the way you evaluate an agency.
00:29:10.569 --> 00:29:11.690
You should be asking these questions.
00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:13.119
How are you discovering new technology?
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:14.049
How are you testing it?
00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:20.900
How are you determining, uh, safety and privacy and, all of these things, and what's your process for that?
00:29:20.900 --> 00:29:34.930
I think understanding the way that these things get implemented inside an organization is important versus, how did you wrap ChatGPT in a, in a copy, you know, BS app and called it AI, right?
00:29:34.990 --> 00:29:38.119
That's just not how the future of work is gonna be done.
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:57.099
So I think really understanding from your agency"Hey, what, what's your system for evaluating the new technology when it comes out?" And if you don't have a good answer to that in 20- July 1st, 2026, uh, you're, uh, you're gonna have a problem, I think the, the, the- Yeah you know, the rest of the year and, and next year for sure.
00:29:57.710 --> 00:30:13.839
You know, asking-- So thinking about the cus- how consumer behavior is changing and asking questions of, you know, the agency around how they're you know, how they're leaned in on, you know, the ad products that are, you know, that are leaning in on that consumer behavior.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:23.009
Obviously that's things like AI Max with Google, but, you know, it's also, you know, there's-- I think we're entering a new and exciting age.
00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:26.789
A lot of people at Cannes were talking about, business messaging agents, right?
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:32.339
Google has a product, Meta has a product TikTok is, you know, is launching a similar product.
00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:39.440
You know, the, the era of, you know, conversational brands I think is, a very interesting interesting one.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:47.890
And, you know, the agencies that are leaning in on testing experiences in those on those types of surfaces I think will be ahead.
00:30:48.509 --> 00:30:54.759
And then, you know, you think about, like, business, you know, B2 agent type modalities.
00:30:54.759 --> 00:31:12.460
Like, how are you thinking about positioning your brand in a way that's positioned to be, engaged with, understood by, a individual's agent or set of agents is, I think, a really exciting and interesting new frontier.
00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:19.779
So I think these things are the, you know, the, they were, they came up frequently, but in, you know, very sort of preliminary ways.
00:31:19.779 --> 00:31:24.440
I think there's still a lot of white space to, you know, to carve out a real leadership in those areas.
00:31:26.076 --> 00:31:27.675
Patrick, you mentioned hot take earlier.
00:31:27.806 --> 00:31:30.746
I'm curious each of you, if you have a hot take.
00:31:31.036 --> 00:31:32.405
We were there at Cannes this year.
00:31:33.486 --> 00:31:37.675
Let's say you go back next year, assuming it sounds like you loved it, you're gonna go back.
00:31:38.205 --> 00:31:42.415
What do you think's true at next year's Cannes that wasn't true this year?
00:31:42.766 --> 00:31:44.006
It was very hot.
00:31:44.066 --> 00:31:45.165
It was exhausting.
00:31:45.165 --> 00:31:52.316
I think, you know, most of the days I was ready for bed at 8:30 PM, uh, after a day of, a full day of meetings.
00:31:52.385 --> 00:32:04.375
I mentioned, indie, indie agencies independently owned agencies, um, having more of a moment, and I think you're gonna see more and more of that over the next two years is my hot take.
00:32:04.826 --> 00:32:19.076
But I, I also mentioned here I think we're going to continue, which is just so counterintuitive probably to everything that everyone has heard me say about AI for the past five years as I've done keynotes on AI.
00:32:19.415 --> 00:32:24.526
I think we're gonna continue to lean in on this concept of irreplaceably human.
00:32:24.526 --> 00:32:40.182
I think creative's gonna be more important going into next year, and I think, you know, in general, you're gonna see a lot more technology-enabled agencies leaning heavier into the human side of creative as their differentiator over the next year.
00:32:41.586 --> 00:32:44.576
Um, very excited to go back next year.
00:32:44.576 --> 00:32:50.296
I think one of the things we're talking about is how do we expose more of the agency to the Cannes experience, and what does that look like?
00:32:50.296 --> 00:32:54.465
So I think that's really important, whether it's on the creative side, on the technology side.
00:32:54.786 --> 00:32:57.925
So I, I do think that you'll have a lot of the same.
00:32:57.925 --> 00:32:59.875
You'll have a lot of really great, innovative solutions.
00:32:59.885 --> 00:33:05.965
I think, again, the, uh, the bias will be towards how are these solutions really driving value for brands.
00:33:06.276 --> 00:33:07.395
So yeah.
00:33:07.415 --> 00:33:16.205
I'm excited to hopefully go back next year and have some more of my colleagues there along with me learning and questioning and experiencing what I think is a great, a great event put on every year.
00:33:16.205 --> 00:33:16.546
What
00:33:16.546 --> 00:33:17.236
about you, Pat?
00:33:17.236 --> 00:33:18.036
Any hot takes?
00:33:21.481 --> 00:33:32.301
Um, I'm gonna lean in on this indie moment thing because I think we're just, you know, we're entering-- Like, I can hear the civ- the civilization golden music, golden age music playing, uh,"Ode to Joy" in the background.
00:33:32.301 --> 00:33:36.061
I think we're entering, you know, that, that real golden age of, like, the scaled indies.
00:33:36.071 --> 00:33:57.372
So I think that, you know, in a call your shot sort of way, I think we're gonna see more indies winning more gold, uh, and Grand Prix awards in, you know, in the Palais in addition to, you know, just being there and, you know, hoping to be amongst that, uh, uh, you know, a, a, a driver of that trend ourselves.
00:33:57.372 --> 00:34:02.011
But I think just the, you know, the general vibe, I think is gonna continue to shift in that direction.
00:34:03.402 --> 00:34:07.291
And more, um, I think more agency partner collaborations.
00:34:07.321 --> 00:34:11.371
There was a, you know, there was a, or ag- agency media and technology partner collaborations.
00:34:11.382 --> 00:34:20.481
There was a some winning work, I can't remember, uh, what the agency was, but it was in, in partnership with Reddit on the, the I think it was the Dove True Beauty campaign.
00:34:20.952 --> 00:34:23.141
Like it was the Real Reviews campaign.
00:34:23.581 --> 00:34:36.501
And it was, you know, the brand, the agency, but Reddit was, you know, explicitly mentioned and sort of collaborated with from the beginning, and it was about sort of, you know, the ver- the authenticity of real reviews making, you know, positive reviews sound better.
00:34:37.092 --> 00:34:52.092
But I think more of that type of work where it's not just brand, agency, and then, partner activation channels are incidental, but, like, sort of natively, endemically built into the strategy I think is gonna be a really exciting thing.
00:34:53.541 --> 00:34:55.731
So we started this with one word from each of you.
00:34:56.132 --> 00:34:58.802
Uh, similarly, I'd love to end it with one thing.
00:34:59.251 --> 00:35:09.811
So curious for each of you, what's one thing that you're changing in your thinking or your approach because of what you experienced at this year's Cannes Lions?
00:35:11.552 --> 00:35:13.731
Pat, you wanna keep going since you ended out hot takes?
00:35:15.152 --> 00:35:15.422
Sure.
00:35:16.262 --> 00:35:23.271
So I've been having a lot of fun going through the submissions from the, the awards.
00:35:23.702 --> 00:35:34.362
And I, I built a a redux of our, like, case study creation tool that sort of built around what were the commonalities of the, the winning work at Cannes.
00:35:34.452 --> 00:35:38.371
Um, so, thinking about how to really bring forward...
00:35:38.592 --> 00:35:55.751
Our team has these incredible insights that drive incredible decisions every single day and it's so fun to shine a spotlight on those things, but it can get, you know, we're, we're doing so much so frequently, so fast that it, that those individual, like, insight, data-driven insights that drive great work can be missed.
00:35:56.181 --> 00:36:05.291
Um, you know, creating a set of tools to make those insights shine a brighter spotlight on those insights is something that I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be continuing to work on.
00:36:06.612 --> 00:36:06.822
Go ahead.
00:36:07.871 --> 00:36:09.422
I'm gonna go in a slightly different direction.
00:36:09.472 --> 00:36:17.501
I'm gonna use the word permission, and I mean that in a way that my team talks a lot to new potential cu- customers and, and existing customers and clients.
00:36:17.851 --> 00:36:27.452
And permission meaning to really put creative in the forefront and make sure that as performance marketers, we're not just thinking about number of leads and cost per lead and things like that.
00:36:27.452 --> 00:36:32.202
We really are bringing creative back into the forefront and making sure that it's really connected to our strategy.
00:36:32.521 --> 00:36:35.722
I think that that's something that I'm taking away, is that it's not an afterthought.
00:36:35.751 --> 00:36:37.902
It's not something that we revisit from time to time.
00:36:38.331 --> 00:36:40.561
It's really important that these things have to sit together
00:36:42.606 --> 00:36:42.965
Yeah.
00:36:43.005 --> 00:36:51.675
And, last week really reinforced a c- a concept I've actually been kicking around for a month and a half, and maybe, maybe I'll, I'll write a post about it.
00:36:51.775 --> 00:36:55.626
But connection relationships are opt-in.
00:36:56.766 --> 00:37:07.956
You know, I think a lot of times it's easy to sit behind a Slack an iMessage, an email, and wait for people to email you or, uh, reach out to you, and you can respond.
00:37:07.956 --> 00:37:12.606
And I think what I really took away from last week is, you have to opt in to the conversation.
00:37:12.606 --> 00:37:18.615
You have to opt in to wanting to be there, to be in the room, to put yourself out there to ask.
00:37:18.706 --> 00:37:26.206
A lot of times we end an email with,"Let me know if there's anything I can do to help," versus, really that, that's very passive.
00:37:26.246 --> 00:37:32.076
And I think being more assertive, uh, it was really showcased last week for me.
00:37:32.085 --> 00:37:43.985
Like, the moments where I was like,"Hey, Myles, how can I do this for you?" Or, you know, and having a real conversation, those were the, the most meaningful connections and the most meaningful moments in that in-person time.
00:37:43.985 --> 00:37:48.775
And I think so opting into that in-person time and opting into those relationships is one of my huge takeaways.
00:37:49.195 --> 00:37:55.949
All right, everyone, that's a wrap for this episode of Good Enough, Isn't thank you to our panelists for sharing their thoughts and experiences, and thanks to all of you for listening.
00:37:56.498 --> 00:38:02.679
For more conversations like this one, be sure to subscribe to Good Enough, Isn't wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll see you next time.
