ABOUT THIS EPISODE
What happens when your job is literally understanding how kids develop… and then you have a baby of your own?
In part II of this conversation, I’m joined by one of my best friends, Dana Pagliuco, a speech-language pathologist and mom, for a conversation about the very specific experience of knowing a lot about child development and realizing that knowledge can be both incredibly helpful and completely anxiety-inducing once you become a parent.
Dana has spent the last decade working with children on speech, language, feeding, and development, so she came into motherhood with a pretty serious professional toolbox. And then breastfeeding humbled her. Feeding humbled her. Milestones humbled her. Basically, motherhood reminded her that knowing what should happen doesn't mean you get to control what actually happens.
We talk about the pressure to get feeding "right," why baby-led weaning isn't the only way, what responsive feeding actually looks like, and why so many parents carry an unnecessary amount of guilt when their child isn't hitting a milestone exactly when they expected.
We also get into speech and language development, when a delay is something to watch versus something worth evaluating, and how to create a language-rich environment without turning your entire day into a developmental therapy session.
And underneath all of it is a bigger question: How do we balance our intuition as parents with the expertise of our providers without becoming either completely dismissive or completely consumed by information?
Because sometimes you need the expert. Sometimes you need to trust your gut. And sometimes you just need someone to remind you that your kid is not a checklist.
In this episode, we talk about:- What Dana's professional knowledge actually helped with and where it completely failed to prepare her for motherhood
- The breastfeeding struggles that humbled her despite having professional experience with feeding
- Why knowing too much can sometimes make parenting anxiety worse
- The pressure parents feel around developmental milestones and why comparison can be so unhelpful
- When to trust your pediatrician's "wait and see" approach and when it's worth pushing for an evaluation
- Why an evaluation doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong
- Speech and language development, including receptive language and the importance of paying attention to the bigger picture
- Simple ways to support language development at home through narration, repetition, and everyday conversation
- Why "core words" can be more useful than simply teaching kids a bunch of nouns
- The truth about baby-led weaning vs. traditional purees and why you don't have to choose the "perfect" method
- What responsive feeding actually means and why following your child's cues matters more than following a feeding trend
- Why feeding struggles can feel so much more emotionally loaded for parents
- The guilt we carry when we assume our child's challenges must somehow be our fault
- How becoming a mother made Dana a more empathetic- and ultimately better therapist
Most of all, this episode is a reminder that you don't have to know everything to be a good mom. And sometimes having the right professional in your corner isn't about being told that you're doing something wrong. It's about having someone help you figure out what's actually worth worrying about.
Dana's professional knowledge was incredibly valuable to the people around her, but motherhood gave her something her education couldn't: perspective.
For more Getting Grounded and your host Sam Blatz, follow along at:
Soul Love with Sam on Substack
@GettingGroundedPodcast on YouTube
Produced by Getting Grounded LLC
SHOW NOTES 🔗
TRANSCRIPT 🔗
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Welcome to Getting Grounded, the open and honest conversation
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about the transition of parenthood and everything that comes along with it. The joy,
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the chaos, the fulfillment, the challenge, the identity shifts,
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the relationship changes. Let's talk about it all.
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Dayna is a speech-language pathologist, which was invaluable
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to me as a brand new mom. And we're going to talk about all
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of those skills and the things that she sees and does and how it helped
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and didn't help her as a parent. As you were saying, I have
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been a speech therapist for about 10 years, which is crazy.
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And for a long, long time was working at an outpatient
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pediatric rehabilitation center. Um, really working with like birth
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to teenage years. Um, and I did that for,
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yeah, like 8 years. And I recently switched into an
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elementary school, um, mostly because of,
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you know, being a mom and having to make that work for my family.
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So, you know, I'm sure more to come to chat about all that and all
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the kind of changes and sacrifices you have to make as
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a parent. But so I've been there As a mom,
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really? Yeah, I know, job's exactly the
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same, but here I am with the, you know, um, but so
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I've been there. I started there in September. Um,
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you have so much knowledge about
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children's development and both being like
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where they should be developmentally and how to nurture those skills, and then also
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when they're not there. And so sometimes that can be helpful as a parent,
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cause more anxiety, all the things. And you were beyond being my
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friend that was pregnant 5 months before me, or sorry, had a child 5 months
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before me that, um, also just is a wealth of knowledge in some of
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these things and were like so helpful for so many
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of the things. And then of course we had the experience where you actually fed
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my children and changed my experience in them, which I can't, was again
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invaluable. I'm just grateful you exist. Um,
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but let's talk about all those things. Let's talk about the,
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having your skillset and things you put into practice, what some things that made it
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easier, some things that are a challenge, um, and you know, what can be
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helpful for people? Yes. So, so, um, I mean,
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on the surface, like, sure, it made it a little bit easier to know,
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like, very detailed, like specific milestones
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for speech and language, for feeding, what's normal, what's not normal,
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how to facilitate some of those skills. So in those ways,
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like, yeah, of course, of course that was like, I felt like, oh cool,
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this is gonna be easy that I have this. But on the other
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side, like, like I was saying, like nothing really prepares
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you for the constantness of it and like just the,
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the total shift in your life of becoming a mother or a parent.
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And even in my area of expertise, like I was
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humbled very quickly because I wanted
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to breastfeed. That was like, you know, my plan. And, you know,
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I had— I never got— I don't— I'm not like a CLC. I don't have
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like my, my certification in lactation, but I had, you know, taken some courses
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like professionally, not, not just like the breastfeeding classes for parents,
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which I had also taken. But I was like, yeah, I have— see, I have
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like— no, there's an IBCLC at my work, and I've taken courses related to
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feeding, like That's going to be no problem. I know exactly,
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not worried about it. Well,
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no, so hard. And then like, you know, Sydney was
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having trouble gaining weight and we— her latch was bad.
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I had to use a nipple shield, which I was like— and then I— and
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then in some ways I'm spiraling like, oh no, not the nipple shields. Like,
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that can help, that can reduce milk production. Like, then sometimes I know too much
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where someone else like, okay, I need to use this to help me out a
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little bit, sure. But I'm going like all the way down this path of like
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all these things that it could do negatively. You know, they're like, oh, I think
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she has a posterior tongue tie. I'm like, I don't, the re— the research doesn't
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really support posterior tongue tie. Like, oh, are you just one of
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those? You know, then I start, so it's like, like so
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quickly I'm like, okay, you know, knowing,
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knowing knowledge and then being a mother are
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separate. They're two different things, you know, and, and it's
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not like gonna be a cakewalk just because I know when kids say
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their first words, you know what I mean? So I think that in
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some ways was good for me to be humbled that quickly early on. Like,
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all right, this is not like, you know nothing actually.
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So here you go. Oh, kind of getting thrown into the,
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thrown in, into the fire there. But, um,
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Um, yeah, I think so. I think if there's anything comforting, like, I feel like
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sometimes people think like, well, I don't really know kids and like, I don't work
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with kids and like, you know, thinking it's going to be this horrible thing.
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It's hard for everybody, no matter what, no matter whether you're a pediatrician,
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you know, me have all this experience with kids, like, you're going to get to
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a point of parenthood that is not your expertise. And,
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and, you know, you have to just, you know, try your best.
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Yeah. I think also like my, so my husband's a pediatric dentist and
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I, remember the stories he would have before we
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had kids and then now the stories after and the ways that he can relate
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to parents and the advice he would give before versus after,
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which is the same thing we're talking about with friends too. But I, so I
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think like now as a parent, as a,
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I would want a provider that's a parent because they just
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understand. So it's so different. It's, they can give,
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people can give all the tips about the day-to-day that I should have with my
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kids and like, oh, just do this unless you're a mom or a dad
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who has experienced experienced the struggle of doing just do this.
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It's— yeah, you need to go through like my— the medical record
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and call up some people and be like, I am so sorry I suggested
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X, Y, and Z. I don't know what I was thinking. Yeah, I don't even
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know why you kept seeing me after that. Like, no,
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you know. Yeah, I, I think if anything, it's made me a better therapist.
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Like, the other way, like, it's having kids has made me a better therapist
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than being a therapist making me a better parent.
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Because now, right, like, I, I, I get it. Like, I'm like, oh,
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okay, like, that's— you're— that's not possible, you know what
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I mean? Right. More realistic expectations. Um,
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and just, I mean, I always feel like I had empathy, but even
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more empathy. Like, you know, sometimes you go through a medical record like,
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okay, born at 26 weeks. Oh yeah, I see they had the CPAP and this.
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And now I'm like, you know, I'm so sorry. That must
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have been really hard for you. You know what I mean? Like kind of taking
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the time to be like, wow, could I imagine if that was the
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experience I went through? Right. Um, so I do,
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I do think that in, if anything, it's made me better
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at my job than my job making me a better parent, if that makes sense.
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Yeah. And I do love that sound because there's so many things that you helped
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me with. And to that point, like me, you are probably spiraling in
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an anxious way with your kid, but then with, to be able to give me
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the tips, like it was like with straws or with certain development or
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just, there's so many tips that you gave me and we'll talk about the feeding
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experience itself. But I wonder
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if, like, I luckily
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didn't have to track a lot of the milestones and there, my kids were initially,
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they took a little longer to speak and then all of a sudden we're like
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off with the races and like giving soliloquies all of a sudden. I was like,
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what the fuck? Like you were, we were maybe gonna
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get you checked and now here we are like, You guys know more words than
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the average adult. But, um, which is again a lucky experience.
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But I feel like I didn't— a lot of my friends here
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knew the milestones and would like say certain things, and I'd be like, oh,
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like I intentionally didn't track them because
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I didn't want to be overly anxious. So I— there's—
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it's two sides, right? Like you need to know them. You are way like overly
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familiar with intricate details. And like, is there a
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happy medium? Do you think people— because I— we want to talk about a little
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bit of like parents' intuitions versus provider tips, but where, where do
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you sit there? Where— what's the best case scenario? It's hard. I think it kind
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of depends on like your personality. Like if you think that that is going
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to make you more anxious, then like yeah, maybe I would say kind
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of avoid it. Um, versus, you know,
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if you can kind of like know that information and, and stay calm
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with it and it's gonna kind of help you then go for it.
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Um, I do think your pediatrician's always a good resource,
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but I will say that sometimes I feel like they maybe
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have like a more of a wait-and-see approach longer than I would like.
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Um, because my experience when I was working in outpatient
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is that like I had plenty of times that I would eval a kid and
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be like, oh no, they're doing great. Like, you're, you know, you're fine. Keep practicing
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these things. Maybe we'll schedule a check-in in 6 months, see how they're doing.
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And, you know, it's kind of one of those things like, well,
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now the, the professional in that area has given the okay,
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like that everything's fine. I'd, I'd rather that than be
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like, why did, you know, why didn't you come in 6 months ago type of
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thing? So I think, I think you can kind of use your
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pediatrician, like if they are concerned,
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uh, then that's valid, right? Like, like they're— I'm
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trying to think about like there's kind of like sensitivity screen, right? Like, so if
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like, if they have concerns, then that's valid. But if, if you have concerns
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and they're kind of being like, oh, that's okay, like let's check back,
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you know, if they're not doing it in 6 more months, then we'll refer,
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but you still don't feel like that's the best approach, I would kind of push,
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push on them that. And that would be the time when you'd say like,
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okay, well, I'm still concerned. Is this Um,
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like substantiated, like let, let me look at the milestones and then
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kind of make a decision like, you know what? No, I really do want them
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to be looked at. You know, there also the other issue is that like everywhere
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has a waitlist. So it's like if by the time you get that time of
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like, yeah, you know what? We really are worried. You might still not get in
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for the appointment soon enough. Mm-hmm. For me, that would make me really
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anxious that like my doctor is worried, I'm worried now, I still
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can't get seen for 3 more months. Right, is kind of the inverse of that.
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Yeah. So I think if you can kind of,
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you know, manage your own, like, it's, I think it's helpful to know, I have
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a rough estimate of like knowing the milestones and trying to kind of manage yourself,
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um, about like worry, like not worrying too much about
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it, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I also, especially about
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the like when to refer and when is a good time and what's normal and
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what's not in terms of the milestones, because the milestones are Kind of, I think
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that's why I often dismiss them because they're kind of crazy. Like some of them
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have the widest ranges and some of them are like, miss the
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mark a little bit that like, you're like, oh, at 1 year they should
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be saying this many words. And like my kids weren't, but then a couple months
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later they were doubling that, you know? So sometimes it's child
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specific, which also is easy for me to say because I have this unique
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experience of seeing 2 kids at the exact same time and the vast differences between
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them and This can be good for some people and not good for some people.
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Like we have, I have a very good group of friends here. We all have
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kids that were born within the same few-week gap
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of one another. And so we would be sharing so much with each
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other. And some kids were super ahead in certain areas and some
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were behind in others. And sometimes that's helpful for people. Sometimes it's
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not. For me, one of my kids, my friend's kids, he walked
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at 9 months. We're like walking, walking. And that's insane,
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right? But like, which sucked for her. Like I, you know,
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I'd be like, my God, God, like this kid is so unstable and could just
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be like off to the races because he can walk. And that's where, you know,
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there's like, he's such a physical kid even now. But it didn't worry
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me because my kids did walk at a year. If they hadn't, and I
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had maybe that example of like, well, he's been walking forever.
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I, I don't know. It can be helpful. For, for me, it was helpful because
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I had 2. So seeing all the differences among all of our kids
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was like easy, easier to level set. Like, Well, development is per
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child, but sometimes not, right? Sometimes they actually
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do have. So like, how do you know? How do you determine that? So,
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so some of the milestones are like ranges, right? So a lot of like the
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physical ones are ranges. So, um, and like,
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that's a, that's a perfect example. Like walking, I think, uh, the range is like,
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well, usually it's like 11 months to 15 months. Yeah. He was out.
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Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, um, And it is hard,
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like the CDC a couple years back, like revamped the
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milestones but didn't use the input from like the, like PTs,
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OTs, and speech pathologists. Oh really?
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Yeah. People were very upset like with how they re— they took crawling out,
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which like PTs and OTs were both really like, at least
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the ones I was working with were like, that's crazy. You know, like yes,
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some kids skip crawling, but we don't ever recommend, like if we can avoid
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them skipping crawling, we do because it helps with balance. It helps with, um,
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like developing the, the fine motor muscle of their hands. Like, there's so many benefits
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to crawling that we would never want to, to skip it.
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Or you could be— now I'm talking about an area that's not even my expertise—
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or you could skip crawling because you have some kind of,
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you know, um, uh, motor challenge
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that's, that's now missed, right, into older.
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So anyway, I digress. But, um, well, even that specific child
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I'm talking about, like, I remember she was a little concerned because
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he wasn't crawling. He wanted to skip straight to walking, and our
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kids were crawling. He crawled for one day and then he walked. So like,
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he didn't skip it, which is great, but like, it was like, oh,
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he's not crawling, he's just pulling himself up all the time. It's like, well,
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now he's just walking. Yeah. So, and he's fine, luckily,
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like totally fine, you know. Um, the hard thing too is that like you,
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you stress so much about it in the baby years, and then it's like,
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okay, when these kids are 5, no one's going like I could tell that kid
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started walking at 11 months. This one was 15. You know what I mean?
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Right. It's like, it seems so important at the time and then later it's
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like it all kind of evens out. Um, I will say that the ranges ones,
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like I, like Zoe is like this. She, um,
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Sydney did everything early. She crawled at 6 months. She walked at 11 months,
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like walking well. And Zoe is on the second end of
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the, the, the back end of the range. Like crawling is like 6 to 9
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months. Zoe was like 9 and a half months. Whereas just people are gonna be
14:56.740 --> 14:59.476
like, all right, I guess maybe I should call, make a PT appointment, and then
14:59.508 --> 15:02.921
she starts crawling. So now I'm like, she's not walking. She's probably
15:02.953 --> 15:06.301
gonna start walking at 15 months.
15:06.382 --> 15:09.426
She'll be just on that later end of the spectrum. So I think with the
15:09.926 --> 15:12.662
spectrum ones, like just, it's,
15:12.886 --> 15:16.235
everything is fine if once you get to that end part of the range
15:16.556 --> 15:20.064
and it's not happening, that's where I would say like, okay, that's maybe worth pursuing.
15:20.160 --> 15:23.717
That's maybe worth looking into. And then some of the, like the speech milestones.
15:24.006 --> 15:27.357
The milestones, it is important to know milestones
15:27.454 --> 15:30.564
aren't when the, when kids do it on the average.
15:30.981 --> 15:34.669
It's like when, like you should expect, like, you know, 90% of kids
15:34.846 --> 15:38.454
do this by this age. So it already does kind of factor in that,
15:38.999 --> 15:42.783
uh, most kids will do it by this time. Does that make sense?
15:42.944 --> 15:45.590
So that's how it's kind of like, okay, that, that's where we can say,
15:45.990 --> 15:48.765
cuz if they make it just like, this is when the average kid does it,
15:49.037 --> 15:52.372
that's, there's so much variation there, then it's It's kind of more meaningless,
15:52.725 --> 15:56.845
right? Okay. Right. But it is most of, okay. Which one most
15:57.053 --> 16:00.291
kids do, whatever it is that, that,
16:00.964 --> 16:04.251
that the milestone is measuring. And so if you want,
16:04.267 --> 16:07.697
I could kind of very briefly talk on the speech ones if
16:07.713 --> 16:11.769
that's helpful. Yeah. Well, speech is interesting and I, cuz speech and feeding
16:12.026 --> 16:15.793
I think are feeding specifically, I feel like cuz
16:16.293 --> 16:19.063
it's stressful with breastfeeding and it's stressful with the type of eater and like,
16:19.079 --> 16:23.087
so it starts out stressful and then you get to food And that's
16:23.587 --> 16:26.969
stressful for totally different reasons. I feel like meals are a source
16:27.469 --> 16:31.365
of stress for so long, even now where
16:31.865 --> 16:35.455
like it's not really all that stressful, but like they like, they think it's
16:35.955 --> 16:38.455
funny to like throw, like they don't, they know not to throw anymore. And now
16:38.503 --> 16:41.535
sometimes they'll like, oh, but we're giving it to Winston. I'm like, but I told
16:42.035 --> 16:45.129
you not to. Right. And then you're like, well, Maddox has a whole, all his
16:45.161 --> 16:48.401
digestive stuff. So it's totally different stressful for that reason.
16:49.492 --> 16:52.898
It's never not, even now, like they're, they eat really well,
16:53.107 --> 16:56.303
but then they like sometimes don't want things and you're like, well, do they need
16:56.803 --> 17:00.544
to be? I feel like meals will be stressful forever, maybe? Like, is that something
17:00.576 --> 17:04.271
that ever isn't? I was working in outpatient when I had a
17:05.235 --> 17:09.010
patient come in that was like delayed in language versus
17:09.510 --> 17:11.307
a patient that came in that was having feeding challenges.
17:12.689 --> 17:16.335
The stress in the room for the feeding challenges was always exponentially
17:16.383 --> 17:19.686
higher. That's where I'm going to have a parent crying. That's where I'm
17:20.186 --> 17:23.211
going to have, you know, like the anxious mom, like, like, you know what I
17:23.711 --> 17:27.602
mean? Because there's just something so innate about like, like, you know,
17:27.698 --> 17:30.903
instinctual about like, I need to make, I need to feed my child. Like my
17:31.403 --> 17:34.557
child needs to be fed. They need to be there. There's nothing more stressful than
17:34.589 --> 17:38.291
that not going well because it feels more like connected to
17:38.820 --> 17:42.249
your, your parenting, your motherhood, like your nurturing aspect than
17:42.666 --> 17:46.192
Like in, in physical skill or language skill. Um,
17:47.182 --> 17:50.712
I don't know. I think it just feels like more ex— you're more exterior.
17:50.856 --> 17:54.142
Like, oh, okay, well, I don't have that much influence over this. And a lot
17:54.642 --> 17:56.466
of times they don't have a lot of influence over the feeding part either.
17:56.786 --> 18:00.633
Right. Right. Some, in some cases, but it just feels more like,
18:00.857 --> 18:03.774
um, you need to eat to be alive and it's,
18:04.095 --> 18:07.573
it just makes it stressful. So, yeah. And then the choking
18:07.669 --> 18:11.083
aspect and there's just like so many, but the speech one too.
18:12.878 --> 18:15.939
It's so interesting because as I said,
18:15.955 --> 18:19.048
my kids were a little, like a couple months delayed maybe. I don't, I,
18:19.304 --> 18:22.109
at this point I don't remember. And I feel like that's the part that's hard.
18:22.333 --> 18:25.763
That's just because a lot of parents, like my, one of my best friends,
18:25.955 --> 18:29.481
again, that best friend term, one of my best friends has a daughter who's much,
18:29.545 --> 18:32.590
much older and she's like, oh yeah, she was like that. And then at 18
18:32.606 --> 18:35.459
months it just exploded. 'Cause that's what people say.
18:36.212 --> 18:39.898
But in the period that you're in during it, you're like, okay,
18:40.139 --> 18:43.809
but is this normal like that? Feels so different than now being on the other
18:44.309 --> 18:48.826
side because like I said, like my kids, their speech is unbelievable
18:49.420 --> 18:52.529
and has been since the day they then
18:52.882 --> 18:56.858
like they started speaking and then it went wild. That's probably not everyone's experience.
18:56.906 --> 19:00.544
So now I don't worry about it, but early on they were delayed.
19:00.801 --> 19:04.151
Like they def— that's, that's a fact with milestones, they were delayed.
19:04.328 --> 19:08.127
Um, so let's, let's talk about speech a little bit. Is that the
19:08.627 --> 19:11.605
norm that like it's just behind and then it excels or no, or?
19:11.798 --> 19:15.452
Yeah, it can be. And that's why it's important to then like be referred,
19:15.484 --> 19:18.080
have the professional look at you. Because like when I see a kid come in
19:18.192 --> 19:20.868
and they're just like have a little language delay, like,
19:21.894 --> 19:25.099
oh, it's so easy. I'm not worried because I know, okay, I can just try
19:25.599 --> 19:28.400
to work on some of these things. Maybe they will hit that. Like 18 months
19:28.900 --> 19:32.021
does feel like a very critical time. Like some, sometimes you have that language explosion,
19:32.134 --> 19:35.210
we even call it. Um, or, you know, you,
19:36.300 --> 19:40.275
I see a kid and I'm like, you know, I'm having some concerns for their
19:40.404 --> 19:43.905
receptive language too. They're not, they're not responding to their name,
19:43.921 --> 19:48.258
they're not following directions. Um, you know, could there be something larger
19:48.758 --> 19:51.647
going on here, right? And so it's like, as a parent, is why the referral
19:52.147 --> 19:55.117
is important. Like, as a parent, you might not know that, right? But if you,
19:55.422 --> 19:57.992
if you came to the expert, then they can kind of help guide, like,
19:58.217 --> 20:01.847
hey, I think they actually should go for a neuropsych evaluation. Or, you know,
20:02.249 --> 20:05.156
okay, there, there's some other things going on here.
20:05.686 --> 20:08.866
Versus just, okay, yeah, listen, let me give you some, um,
20:09.075 --> 20:12.560
tips for helping to facilitate like a language-rich environment,
20:12.608 --> 20:16.623
right? Those are like totally different cases. Like one that's very easy
20:17.123 --> 20:19.980
for me, one that's like I'm a little more concerned about. Uh,
20:20.076 --> 20:23.593
I should also be clear that despite saying all these things that
20:24.093 --> 20:26.259
I didn't track the milestones, so I made sure I wasn't anxious. All of that
20:26.759 --> 20:30.676
is true. And we did have them evaluated. Yeah. Like my pediatrician was like,
20:31.222 --> 20:34.402
um, maybe, I don't know. Like she's like, it doesn't hurt. And I
20:34.434 --> 20:38.027
was like, Cool. I agreed. Like, if they're not meeting it, you're telling
20:38.059 --> 20:42.132
me it doesn't hurt. I'm obviously a little concerned,
20:42.148 --> 20:45.355
you know, like they're not meeting this thing that people are talking about.
20:45.596 --> 20:48.835
So we had them evaluated and they like, and had
20:48.867 --> 20:52.299
the people even still keep coming, even though, because it, to your point,
20:52.315 --> 20:55.987
it takes time. And in the window, we like looked for it. And then
20:56.324 --> 20:59.643
from when they were evaluated in that window, they started speaking.
20:59.707 --> 21:02.658
So by the time they came, it was like, Well, now I'm not worried,
21:02.738 --> 21:06.296
but should I still be? So they like came to make sure it
21:06.796 --> 21:09.230
stayed on track. And at that point, I literally just had a person come to
21:09.730 --> 21:12.484
my house to like shoot the shit with me because there was no more concern.
21:12.933 --> 21:15.915
But they probably were like, this is a nice one to have on the caseload.
21:15.963 --> 21:19.233
Super easy. If these kids are, yeah, I look like a rock star. I do
21:19.249 --> 21:22.407
one thing and they copy it, you know? But yeah, yeah. But it
21:22.455 --> 21:26.158
was also helpful to your point too, of like, I was speaking to
21:26.658 --> 21:30.518
them like an adult would speak to another human
21:30.566 --> 21:34.335
being because I hadn't had a baby at that age. Age before and like
21:34.835 --> 21:37.931
things. So she gave me some things to say that at this
21:37.947 --> 21:40.741
point I again don't even remember because now I still speak to them like they're
21:40.757 --> 21:44.386
adults. Yeah. Um, and but I explain a lot to them and maybe that
21:44.434 --> 21:47.951
is what changed. Like I, I explain everything. I explain everything
21:47.983 --> 21:51.740
we're doing. I answer their questions fully. If there's something I don't
21:52.240 --> 21:56.782
want them to do, I tell them why. And I think maybe that originated
21:56.878 --> 22:00.793
then because it was like, well, giving them more information,
22:00.825 --> 22:04.592
you know, more to work with, um, is sort of what—
22:04.656 --> 22:07.606
there were, there were things that she said and did that I found helpful.
22:07.798 --> 22:11.085
Um, so I'm always glad that I have. I think that's why I, I do
22:11.585 --> 22:15.156
tend towards like, if, if you are concerned, like within
22:15.172 --> 22:18.955
reason, right? Like, you know, no one should be getting an evaluation 'cause their,
22:19.324 --> 22:22.274
you know, 9-month-old isn't talking or something, right? Within reason,
22:22.771 --> 22:25.726
it, it's just helpful to have that expert say, Yes,
22:25.855 --> 22:29.603
everything's okay, or no, I'm a little concerned. And even when
22:29.652 --> 22:32.867
it's the yes, everything's okay, it's like, oh yeah, and here's like a couple things
22:32.883 --> 22:36.063
you could keep trying, right? You know what I mean? Like, it's always helpful to
22:36.563 --> 22:40.037
just have that kind of like that guidance. I mean, I would say like my
22:40.537 --> 22:43.826
biggest tips is like, and this came,
22:44.099 --> 22:46.527
this is one of those things that it came very naturally to me, but I
22:47.027 --> 22:50.368
know from talking to other people, it doesn't always like, you just need to just
22:50.868 --> 22:54.256
be narrating everything you're doing at all times. Like, the only way
22:54.756 --> 22:58.503
they learn is by imitating and getting that exposure. So it's just like, you know,
22:58.647 --> 23:01.515
I always joke that I'm gonna be like in the nursing home with dementia being
23:01.547 --> 23:04.400
like, put in, take out, ready?
23:05.153 --> 23:08.502
Oh, oh, it fell. And they're gonna
23:09.002 --> 23:12.637
be like, what is this like 86-year-old person like talking about now?
23:12.749 --> 23:16.114
Just like, put in, put in, take out. What are you talking about? But just
23:16.614 --> 23:20.427
kind of narrating narrating every single part of the play and emphasizing
23:21.421 --> 23:25.190
what we call like these core words that, um, that you use. So core
23:25.690 --> 23:29.407
words are, um, when you look at our, what we talk about, our vocabulary,
23:29.423 --> 23:32.647
they make up like 80% of what we talk about. And then fringe words
23:33.032 --> 23:36.447
are those 20%. So fringe, and this is a common thing parents
23:36.947 --> 23:39.622
do, like fringe is like naming all the animals, cow, pig,
23:40.184 --> 23:43.295
but that only, that those words are only important when you're playing with the
23:43.795 --> 23:47.406
farm. In, out, go, stop,
23:48.128 --> 23:51.614
put, come, take. You're going to use that the whole
23:51.726 --> 23:55.051
day. So when you're trying to think like, okay, this toddler is delayed in
23:55.099 --> 23:58.295
language, if I could help them to learn 10 words, what would be the
23:58.327 --> 24:01.459
10 most important words? Things that they can use throughout their day,
24:01.925 --> 24:05.844
not 10 animals, because now you've gone to playing with cars,
24:06.277 --> 24:09.779
you can't say anything now. So it's kind of like trying to focus on
24:11.094 --> 24:14.671
Those high-frequency words, narrating, which, which you
24:14.687 --> 24:17.719
use all the time. So if you're just talking every day, oh, I'm, I'm pouring
24:17.751 --> 24:21.874
your milk, it's going in, in, in, you know, basically I—
24:22.788 --> 24:26.349
Miss Rachel is the best and the worst because I feel like if a
24:26.397 --> 24:28.755
parent ever watched Miss Rachel and they came to my session, they'd be like,
24:29.477 --> 24:32.076
so you're just doing what Miss Rachel does?
24:32.749 --> 24:36.038
Is that your job? You watch her and you imitate it? And then I also,
24:36.054 --> 24:39.488
like, when I first watched her, I was like, Why did I not
24:39.988 --> 24:43.838
think of doing this? But because you're not a musical theater major who
24:44.127 --> 24:48.124
can write all your own songs. I'm not married to Mr. Aaron who produces
24:48.156 --> 24:51.238
music or whatever. Yeah, unfortunately not married to Mr.
24:51.350 --> 24:53.694
Aaron. Or fortunately, you know. Sorry,
24:54.320 --> 24:57.450
um, yeah, so I mean,
24:57.466 --> 25:00.500
she is— I know some people think she's annoying, but like, that is a good
25:01.000 --> 25:04.256
example of how she kind of like slows down and she really emphasizes the
25:04.272 --> 25:07.784
words and she Is constantly narrating what she's doing.
25:08.217 --> 25:11.807
You know, those are all really good strategies for helping to build those foundations for
25:12.307 --> 25:15.814
language. Um, and repetit— repetition. So like when
25:15.846 --> 25:19.484
you're doing, you doing play, you try to like ready, set,
25:19.757 --> 25:22.738
and you leave that last word off for them to try to, try to vocally
25:23.238 --> 25:25.350
fill in. I'm sure the prob— this is some of the stuff that was happening
25:25.850 --> 25:29.999
with the EI therapist that was coming. Like, I, I, I don't really
25:30.499 --> 25:33.316
remember, which is funny cuz I don't remember her. There's 2 things from it that
25:33.816 --> 25:37.421
I do remember. But, um, one being in the evaluation,
25:37.469 --> 25:40.964
my kids were like so far ahead in certain motor
25:40.996 --> 25:44.828
things, gross motor, I guess, but fine motor, this, the test
25:44.844 --> 25:47.939
is specifically picking up a crayon and drawing with it.
25:48.355 --> 25:51.867
And I hadn't exposed them to that. So they like failed that because they
25:51.899 --> 25:54.384
were like, what is this? Do I eat it? Like, I don't know.
25:54.865 --> 25:57.510
And I was like, I have twins. I don't know. I never showed them a
25:58.010 --> 26:00.605
crayon. Like, this is me. You know, the part that I hate so much is
26:00.653 --> 26:03.827
like the, the guilt then, right? You're like, It's my fault they don't
26:04.327 --> 26:06.745
know how to use— like, the amount of times that I would be in an
26:07.245 --> 26:09.775
eval— like, I was in an eval one time and this mom's like, oh,
26:09.791 --> 26:13.542
like, my father passed away when he was like 6 months old and I feel
26:14.042 --> 26:17.149
like I, I got depressed and then I wasn't talking a lot to him.
26:17.405 --> 26:20.243
So like, I feel like he's like— he has a delay because,
26:20.916 --> 26:24.154
because of that. And I'm just like, okay, this is one of those
26:24.654 --> 26:27.457
times where I was like, this is good that I'm a parent. So yeah,
26:27.473 --> 26:30.698
we're just gonna pause right there. Like, This is not—
26:31.198 --> 26:33.782
first of all, the, the kid did have— he, he was autistic. So it was
26:34.282 --> 26:36.256
like kind of one of those things too. It was like, you couldn't really not—
26:36.545 --> 26:39.758
you literally not have done anything about this. But the fact that you're
26:40.258 --> 26:42.842
coming here and that's like the first thing you're saying to me is just like,
26:43.211 --> 26:47.162
oh, it hurts my heart that you are internalizing this guilt.
26:47.869 --> 26:50.857
And so I'm like, okay, you had no influence. Like, I'm sorry that happened to
26:51.357 --> 26:54.889
you, and then you had no influence on what's going on right now. And like
26:55.112 --> 26:58.173
you know, now we can do the evaluation, right?
26:58.237 --> 27:01.666
So yeah, to that, like, the connection we make
27:02.166 --> 27:05.384
between like our kid having a delay or having a challenge and then how,
27:05.993 --> 27:09.838
how that's caused by our parenting. And like, most of the time it's
27:10.338 --> 27:14.309
not, you know, like, your kids are more advanced motor-wise
27:14.822 --> 27:17.738
and you were— had the evaluation there for language. Well,
27:18.187 --> 27:21.922
that's not surprising to me because, you know, like, one skill excels while
27:21.938 --> 27:25.455
another skill is, right. Brain is like going through these
27:25.487 --> 27:28.666
bursts. And so it's like you'll have this burst in motor skill and language kind
27:29.166 --> 27:32.472
of takes a backseat or vice versa. You have a burst in language and motor
27:32.972 --> 27:36.052
takes a backseat. It's like, that's why there's ranges,
27:36.405 --> 27:39.585
right? That's why it's kind of like has their own path,
27:40.098 --> 27:43.599
their own. Well, also on the narration component, which is funny,
27:44.032 --> 27:47.299
I don't know if, um, This might've been,
27:47.478 --> 27:51.214
I don't know, even now still like hearing that feels ridiculous.
27:51.799 --> 27:53.830
And you, I don't know, did you read Bringing Up Bébé?
27:55.487 --> 27:58.912
Um, I did. I didn't like it. Some people love it.
27:58.961 --> 28:02.031
Some people don't. There are things about it that I loved. I've heard a lot
28:02.531 --> 28:04.911
of mixed, I've heard so many people are like, you guys look very anti-vax.
28:04.959 --> 28:07.877
She was like, oh, in France they don't do that. Exactly. Yeah. So I,
28:08.282 --> 28:11.118
that is what I think about now. Cause I think about,
28:11.426 --> 28:14.516
she was like, like when she was being like, Oh, an American parent on the
28:15.016 --> 28:18.126
playground be like, ooh wee, you know, it's like, shut your mouth because that's me,
28:18.511 --> 28:21.432
you know. But all I'm thinking about right now as you're saying that, it's like
28:21.480 --> 28:24.930
this stereotypical annoying American, then we overdo
28:24.946 --> 28:28.572
everything and we like talk to these kids like they're whatever.
28:28.941 --> 28:32.150
And so you, that I guess I internalized because
28:32.230 --> 28:36.162
even now I'm thinking like, that feels like
28:36.662 --> 28:39.868
this stereotypical annoying thing, but it's healthy to do, you know,
28:39.964 --> 28:43.542
it's like this weird. I'm glad you, this is a good point
28:44.042 --> 28:48.243
that you brought up. I think that, or, well, I know this, that even
28:48.933 --> 28:53.328
most kids will develop language despite having like a super language-rich
28:53.828 --> 28:57.371
environment or not, right? Because like the, the usually the,
28:57.500 --> 29:00.772
the typical development, that's why it's called typical, 'cause typically what
29:00.789 --> 29:04.318
happens is you develop language whether you have an SLP
29:04.818 --> 29:08.877
mom going like, ooh honey, you want more, more. Or somebody
29:09.054 --> 29:12.171
who's not doing that, right? The, the, the chances that the kid will,
29:12.508 --> 29:15.705
will develop language and, and talk and have,
29:15.962 --> 29:18.887
you know, mastery of language is probable.
29:19.754 --> 29:23.787
It's more like if your child is delayed, then those other
29:23.915 --> 29:27.675
factors are important of narrating, using those
29:27.852 --> 29:31.419
like close-ended ready, set, because now we've already said, okay, for some
29:31.919 --> 29:35.335
reason they're having struggles. They're not picking up on it.
29:35.719 --> 29:39.486
And so, you know, how can we like focus in on intervention? I mean,
29:39.502 --> 29:42.820
that's even why actually Miss Rachel exists is her son was language
29:43.320 --> 29:46.715
delayed. Yeah. And she, so I think that's actually a good point that like,
29:47.180 --> 29:50.514
you know, you, you probably will,
29:50.626 --> 29:53.046
even if you don't do any of the things I just said, like your kid
29:53.546 --> 29:56.332
will probably learn to talk and be just fine. It's more like if you are
29:56.832 --> 30:00.451
feeling like, oh, we're approaching those milestone times and, and then I'm not
30:00.499 --> 30:03.570
hearing that it's not happening. That can be helpful. So I think that's where
30:04.070 --> 30:06.890
it's like in her book, she's kind of being like, oh, that's, you know,
30:07.390 --> 30:10.630
and it's like, yeah, because probably the default, so then the most
30:11.130 --> 30:14.850
often the language will come regardless of kind of what input you're putting in.
30:15.350 --> 30:18.670
Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Pieces of like neglect or no,
30:19.170 --> 30:23.170
you know, deprivation, but different. That's not what we're talking about. So yeah,
30:23.670 --> 30:25.650
I do remember her saying that and me being like, I didn't like the book
30:26.150 --> 30:28.690
for other reasons. I did love it for the feeding parts.
30:29.040 --> 30:32.729
Talking about, yeah, like the schedule, like in the,
30:33.030 --> 30:35.370
the, you know, how they're not hungry at meals and that's why they're terrible at
30:35.870 --> 30:38.370
restaurants. That one stuck with me. And how like, and I was like, oh my
30:38.870 --> 30:42.250
God, I wish our daycares were making them like, you know, carrot puree and whatnot.
30:42.750 --> 30:46.090
And like the, oh yeah. Oh my God. The meals at the free daycare.
30:46.230 --> 30:49.550
Yeah. It's not a good daycare. Um, you know how like,
30:50.050 --> 30:52.430
you know, Americans, we always like run around with kids with our snacks and I'm
30:52.930 --> 30:55.190
like, so it's funny cuz then I'm like, in that part I'm like, yeah,
30:55.690 --> 30:58.666
I don't, I don't bring snacks to the playground. It's like, You know, you're hungry.
30:58.730 --> 31:01.814
Okay. Right. Let's have lunch. I know I don't either. It's like meals.
31:01.943 --> 31:04.738
And sometimes I'll have what we'll call, I'll call it snack lunch because we're out,
31:04.850 --> 31:08.239
but like it's lunch. They just happen to be eating snacks for lunch. Lunch is
31:08.739 --> 31:12.159
our lunch because the lunches are your meal. So that it's just a
31:12.576 --> 31:15.725
little smush board of snacks. But yeah,
31:15.757 --> 31:19.001
it depends on the day, the location or whatever. But I do.
31:19.307 --> 31:23.113
So let's segue into that, which is perfect. Um, I want to talk about
31:23.643 --> 31:26.854
2 things, feeding things that will, I mean, it's, as we said,
31:26.870 --> 31:30.627
it's so stressful. So I don't know, like we'll try to highlight certain things and
31:31.127 --> 31:34.560
you helping me with that. And then also picky eating, because I know
31:34.784 --> 31:38.396
there's certain things that maybe you think or could
31:38.896 --> 31:42.041
have influenced that with your kids. Um, which I have interesting takes on
31:42.541 --> 31:45.203
because I have, again, 2 kids that were raised in the exact same environment.
31:45.637 --> 31:48.847
I mean, granted, he has some sensitivities, which I think
31:49.347 --> 31:52.938
influenced it a lot. But I don't know. I have one kid that will look
31:53.438 --> 31:55.873
at what I'm eating and go, um, can I have some of that? And the
31:55.889 --> 31:59.320
other kid that's like, I'm all set. Um, and she'll like eat my bowl of
31:59.352 --> 32:02.832
quinoa and I'm like, this isn't even good. Why are you eating it? Um,
32:02.977 --> 32:06.184
it's made with like, there's some tomatoes on it. And she's like, oh yeah,
32:06.392 --> 32:09.616
I want that. Um, so there's 2 parts. So let's start
32:10.116 --> 32:13.785
with first the feeding itself and how scary that can be and help
32:14.285 --> 32:17.860
tips there because you literally Thank God we went on that
32:18.360 --> 32:21.103
trip at the time that we did because I was super intimidated. I had started
32:21.603 --> 32:25.182
with baby-led weaning. One of my kids gagged so hard they threw up everything in
32:25.682 --> 32:28.891
their bottle. And my mom was there who's 1,000 times more anxious than I am.
32:28.955 --> 32:32.696
And she's like, you need to not do this. You need to do purees
32:32.792 --> 32:35.024
like I did. And I'm like, yes, ma'am. Yes, I do.
32:36.164 --> 32:40.162
And then luckily it like boomer, a little bit of a mix. Hate baby-led
32:40.178 --> 32:44.625
weaning. Yeah, sure. They cannot. My mom was like— my
32:44.689 --> 32:46.856
mom was so funny during that time. She'd be like, no, no, no. I'm like,
32:46.872 --> 32:51.029
Mom, I literally do this for work. Like, yeah, right. Like, I am very skilled
32:51.093 --> 32:54.511
in this arena. But then I was afraid to give them like anything, and you
32:54.720 --> 32:58.428
like smushed some berries and handed it to them, and they were covered
32:58.572 --> 33:02.248
in berries and having the time of their lives. And I'm like, okay, all right,
33:02.264 --> 33:05.393
this is safe. I can do this. So I will say,
33:06.019 --> 33:09.641
um, I feel like baby-led weaning But that is what I did with my kids,
33:09.900 --> 33:12.462
and I feel like it's very popular right now. But I,
33:13.905 --> 33:18.265
I think that that's kind of tough because I feel like now
33:18.765 --> 33:21.784
parents feel like that's what they should do, that's what they have to do,
33:22.157 --> 33:26.255
and it's not. Like, the research is showing that whether you choose baby-led weaning
33:26.995 --> 33:30.119
or whether you choose like the traditional approach of starting with purees,
33:30.473 --> 33:34.144
both can be equally as effective, um, in gaining
33:34.241 --> 33:37.365
skill for feeding and for, you know, pickiness, right? So I feel like people think
33:37.865 --> 33:41.096
like, oh, baby-led is what you need to do to not have a
33:41.144 --> 33:44.462
picky eater. And that's not necessarily true.
33:44.847 --> 33:48.565
So the traditional approach would be starting with purees
33:48.902 --> 33:52.332
and then grad— like a couple months later, introducing finger foods.
33:52.909 --> 33:56.372
Um, and then as they get older, then they
33:56.872 --> 33:59.353
can just eat normal foods that are modified slightly, like,
34:00.459 --> 34:03.473
whereas baby-led weaning is starting with real foods.
34:03.970 --> 34:08.076
Um, you can incorporate purees, but it's like the child is like leading that
34:08.576 --> 34:10.662
by like you hand them the spoon that has the purees loaded and you feed
34:11.162 --> 34:13.955
it to themselves. Which I did do. I did do that. But yeah, it's mostly
34:14.455 --> 34:17.248
like, okay, you're gonna give— thanks to you though, you like sent me specific spoons
34:17.748 --> 34:20.300
and things to use and that's what I did. Yeah. So I think it creates
34:20.348 --> 34:25.023
a lot of anxiety that people think they have to do baby-led weaning and the,
34:25.248 --> 34:28.669
the mo— what the research really shows is that the most important thing
34:28.717 --> 34:32.556
is to have responsive feeding, have caregivers
34:32.637 --> 34:35.865
use a responsive feeding approach. So. That looks like
34:36.828 --> 34:40.006
reading the cues from your child. Is your child, like, if you start with purees,
34:40.022 --> 34:43.249
that's totally fine, but what we shouldn't be doing is trying to kind of sneak
34:43.749 --> 34:46.106
a bite in, or they're turning their head away and you're still coming at them
34:46.138 --> 34:49.669
with the spoon. So those are all examples of not
34:50.169 --> 34:52.607
being responsive. Your child is trying to tell you that they don't want to eat
34:52.799 --> 34:56.106
and you're trying to kind of force it. And those are the things that can
34:56.606 --> 34:59.990
later create picky eating. Baby-led weaning by nature doesn't already
35:00.023 --> 35:02.190
have that because the whole point is you put the food down and the kid
35:02.690 --> 35:06.680
picks it up. But you can do purees that same way by just
35:07.000 --> 35:10.464
reading the child's cues. So, you know, you have your puree, you have your
35:10.964 --> 35:13.510
spoon, you wanna be looking for what we call like a positive tilt. So if
35:13.558 --> 35:16.749
the child's leaning towards you, they have, they're opening their mouth.
35:17.182 --> 35:20.917
I mean, they're telling you, I want that bite. So whether you are giving
35:21.014 --> 35:24.798
it to them or you're loading the spoon and handing it to them, if they're
35:25.298 --> 35:29.608
bringing their mouth open and leaning towards you, they are showing interest
35:30.108 --> 35:32.656
and you are responding by giving it to them. And when they show cues that
35:33.156 --> 35:36.174
they don't want it by turning away or pushing it away, and you stop,
35:36.511 --> 35:39.933
you're being responsive. That's what
35:39.949 --> 35:43.595
you have to do. That's how you help them to become someone who feels like,
35:43.724 --> 35:47.563
okay, eating is fun, I'm enjoying this, and creating a positive association.
35:47.916 --> 35:51.498
So I think it's become this thing, 'cause you
35:51.594 --> 35:54.694
are not the only friend that has been like, oh my God, I'm trying to
35:55.194 --> 35:58.338
do this baby-led weaning, and I'm just so terrified. To be doing it and
35:58.354 --> 36:02.410
be so anxious and be, be scared. And the kids
36:02.442 --> 36:05.072
can pick up on that. So if that, if that's your experience— well, it's to
36:05.572 --> 36:08.775
be fun. If that's your experience with it, don't do it. Do period. And then
36:09.275 --> 36:12.831
when they turn 8, 9 months, okay, now you can start offering some finger foods.
36:13.489 --> 36:16.599
Yeah, it'd be worse to do baby-led weaning with your heart not in it,
36:16.952 --> 36:20.735
freaking out, you know, they gag and you're— because
36:20.783 --> 36:24.150
then they're learning, oh my God, oh, that was scary, that's dangerous, I shouldn't
36:24.650 --> 36:28.578
be doing that, right? So it's like, if it's not for you pivot
36:28.658 --> 36:32.110
and do purees. And I think, like, people need
36:32.610 --> 36:36.140
to know that the, the research on either approach is consistent
36:36.640 --> 36:40.427
as long as you're being responsive. That makes sense. Yes,
36:40.861 --> 36:44.281
it does. And I remember being like, then when I decided, okay,
36:44.297 --> 36:46.770
I'm gonna start with purees and I'll do a mix and I'll do different things,
36:47.027 --> 36:50.784
I think I ended up doing a mix also because my pediatrician
36:50.880 --> 36:54.185
or people were like, well, You do one ingredient at a
36:54.685 --> 36:58.497
time. And like right now, unless you're, I mean, if I didn't have twins because
36:58.997 --> 37:01.591
I'm so crunchy out there weirdo and I had more,
37:02.120 --> 37:05.695
less on my plate, I probably would have made everything if I'm being
37:05.711 --> 37:09.542
honest with myself. But the world— organic options now that,
37:09.959 --> 37:13.453
I mean, like, well, there, there are great organic options sort of. And I
37:13.501 --> 37:16.932
think this is why the universe humbled me by giving me twins because
37:17.432 --> 37:19.096
I couldn't do all those things, which is probably a good thing for me.
37:19.657 --> 37:22.815
Um, but it was tricky to find single ingredients.
37:22.863 --> 37:26.389
Like there's like a few classic single ingredients, but then everything
37:26.470 --> 37:28.922
is mixed because you're in like step 2.
37:29.275 --> 37:32.304
Um, so it was like a little tricky in that I
37:32.400 --> 37:37.001
wanted to make sure I was exposing them to things and like
37:37.450 --> 37:40.720
for allergy-wise, which you don't even necessarily think of or sensitivities.
37:40.816 --> 37:44.246
And granted, none of that even mattered because I still have a son with sensitivities.
37:44.375 --> 37:47.981
So I just like, I think that's why I ended
37:48.481 --> 37:51.860
up with the mixed approach, but I, it was helpful and it was the right
37:52.360 --> 37:55.598
thing for me, right? Like, I, I'm glad that— and a lot of people ended
37:56.098 --> 37:58.356
up telling me that same thing. They were like, well, then we went to purees.
37:58.452 --> 38:00.954
And now, to your point, there are so many purees out there that, like,
38:01.275 --> 38:05.220
I remember giving them salmon puree, which I was like, ew, but they loved it.
38:05.269 --> 38:08.877
And I was like, great, full of omegas, it's organic, they love
38:09.377 --> 38:12.903
it. And they even still eat salmon a lot now. Yeah. But so let's talk
38:13.403 --> 38:16.495
about the picky eating part too, because I'm curious.
38:16.816 --> 38:19.767
You don't have picky eaters, and like I said, I have one. I wouldn't even
38:19.799 --> 38:23.747
call him a picky eater, but Because of his stomach stuff, whatever, but he's pickier
38:23.876 --> 38:26.862
and it's not as easy to feed him. But even still, like you have a
38:27.362 --> 38:30.345
kid that's very similar age to mine, even though she's not picky, does she still
38:30.845 --> 38:34.150
have like toddler preferences where she's like, I want quesadilla and you're like,
38:34.230 --> 38:37.826
okay, here's quesadilla. This is where, this is
38:37.922 --> 38:41.984
one area where I feel like parents do have more influence than they realize.
38:42.032 --> 38:44.969
I think sometimes people just say like, oh, you're so lucky your kid's not picky.
38:45.066 --> 38:47.907
Or like, ugh, they're just so picky. There's nothing I can do about that.
38:48.372 --> 38:51.612
I, I do think that there is some influence we have here, but it is
38:51.660 --> 38:54.996
important to know that every
38:55.044 --> 38:58.893
single child, when they get to toddlerhood, will exhibit
38:59.393 --> 39:02.854
some— they will not be eating like, like, oh, 12 months, they're eating everything.
39:02.966 --> 39:05.724
There's, there, there isn't a food they won't eat. Now,
39:06.254 --> 39:10.503
oh my gosh, they're, they're, they're refusing that. They're— that is 100%
39:11.003 --> 39:13.839
going to happen. So like, let's set the stage for realistic expectations.
39:14.530 --> 39:17.486
It's for several reasons. One's cognitive development.
39:17.551 --> 39:21.391
Like, when you're 12 months, you don't even know that there's other options.
39:21.729 --> 39:24.958
You're just, right, presented to you. When you're
39:25.458 --> 39:29.120
2 and a half, 3, you are aware that there's another food that
39:29.620 --> 39:31.964
could be in the fridge that you want to have, or that, like, I ate
39:32.464 --> 39:35.291
something yesterday that I really liked and I want that right now. So one,
39:35.307 --> 39:38.553
there's the, there's just the awareness of other things. And 2,
39:39.324 --> 39:42.675
um, in the same reasons that we're seeing it show up in other areas
39:42.771 --> 39:46.523
of like temper tantrums. Like, they're experimenting with protesting,
39:46.635 --> 39:50.001
refusals, pushing boundaries. What will happen if I say no?
39:50.466 --> 39:54.218
You know, and, um, and they even have kind of shown that like there's
39:54.570 --> 39:58.337
evolu— from an evolutionary standpoint, like this
39:58.837 --> 40:02.329
concept of like neophobia. Like toddlers go through this period of being afraid
40:02.829 --> 40:06.193
of new things as a way to protect themselves because like way
40:06.257 --> 40:09.673
back, you know, hunter-gatherer days, like a baby is always with mom.
40:10.042 --> 40:13.810
So mom's always seeing what baby's eating. And now 2,
40:13.907 --> 40:16.986
3, they're kind of toddling off. They're exploring. They're not always
40:17.082 --> 40:21.428
like hovered around by an adult. So dangerous
40:21.928 --> 40:25.100
to pick that berry and eat it. Could be poisonous, could die. So kind of,
40:25.116 --> 40:28.372
this is like almost like an evolutionary trait of them to be like, I don't
40:28.388 --> 40:31.707
recognize that. That's new. I'm going to be cautious. I'm not going to eat it.
40:31.997 --> 40:35.097
Because I wish that would fucking apply to running in the street.
40:35.872 --> 40:40.603
Yes, why? Why? Poisonous berries are not
40:40.796 --> 40:44.108
as an impact in today's life as like, yeah, like let me
40:44.608 --> 40:47.483
just— Sydney the other day was like, there's a cat in the street, and there
40:47.983 --> 40:51.123
was, and sprinted into the street, and I was like, fabulous. Uh, right.
40:52.413 --> 40:55.816
So all that to say is that we should expect there to be some level
40:55.865 --> 40:59.898
of pickiness. Now this is where parents can kind of like tip
41:00.398 --> 41:04.011
that over into becoming extremely picky or just kind
41:04.511 --> 41:08.188
of smooth sailing through this normal pickiness phase and getting
41:08.253 --> 41:12.126
through to it on the other side. So, I think if
41:12.626 --> 41:15.743
I were to make one most important tip,
41:15.824 --> 41:18.251
there's several tips, but the most important one is this.
41:21.216 --> 41:24.974
I love this approach. It's by Ellen Satter. I think she's a nutritionist.
41:25.722 --> 41:29.568
And she causes this concept called division of responsibility. So the parents
41:30.068 --> 41:33.029
decide when and what is being served for food,
41:33.878 --> 41:37.018
and the child decides if they'll eat it and how much.
41:37.675 --> 41:40.944
So I genuinely never say like, you need to take a
41:41.444 --> 41:44.805
bite of that, or try this and then you can get whatever.
41:44.902 --> 41:48.394
Like, I don't use any of that. I even try to like explain it to
41:48.894 --> 41:51.936
her in terms I think she'll understand. Like, this is what's on the menu tonight.
41:52.144 --> 41:54.549
This is what's being served. You don't have to eat it,
41:55.432 --> 41:58.851
um, but this is what we're all having. We all have the same meal.
41:59.461 --> 42:03.152
And it takes some, it takes some, some pre-planning. Like,
42:03.168 --> 42:05.190
if I'm, if it's something that I think is like, oh, this is a little
42:05.239 --> 42:08.481
weird, maybe she's not going to want this, I will, the menu
42:08.689 --> 42:11.707
will include blueberries because I know she's going to eat blueberries. So we're eating,
42:12.204 --> 42:16.072
uh, you know, let's say salmon and asparagus and blueberries. Like, that would never
42:16.572 --> 42:19.507
be a meal I would make for me and my, my husband, but like I'm
42:20.007 --> 42:22.670
gonna put a food on there and pre— say, this is where the pre-planning kind
42:23.170 --> 42:26.155
of comes in and with the mental load, and that can be tough. But I
42:26.187 --> 42:29.222
sort of pre-think like, okay, what's one thing I know she'll definitely eat?
42:29.382 --> 42:33.011
I'll include that into the meal. And then I'm— that's
42:33.511 --> 42:35.901
it. That's what we're having. And if she refuses to eat the rest of the
42:36.401 --> 42:41.039
stuff, I let that be how it is. I do not say—
42:41.280 --> 42:43.544
if she says, oh, well, I wanna have, you know,
42:44.732 --> 42:48.184
toast or something. I don't bring that out because what
42:48.684 --> 42:51.331
I, what you then teach is that no matter what's being served,
42:51.797 --> 42:55.811
I can always get what I want. I can always get something different. So I
42:56.311 --> 42:59.359
don't have to eat this because no matter what I do, how much I dig
42:59.407 --> 43:03.405
in, something else will show up. So it's like to preemptively
43:03.903 --> 43:07.660
add something I know she'll like and then say nothing else is coming,
43:07.692 --> 43:12.220
this is it. I'd say probably at least
43:12.720 --> 43:15.585
7, 8 out of 10 times, the rest of the food gets eaten. Not without
43:15.633 --> 43:18.856
crying first, a protest, yelling. And I say, no,
43:19.145 --> 43:21.743
you know, you don't have to eat it. I, I might, you know, do a
43:22.243 --> 43:25.671
little play things, I might ignore, but I just kind of— I think sticking firm
43:26.171 --> 43:29.520
to that boundary of like, nothing else is coming, so you
43:29.584 --> 43:32.149
decide if you want to eat all of the things on this plate, if you
43:32.649 --> 43:35.709
just want to eat the blueberries, that's up to you. And I, and I,
43:35.982 --> 43:38.806
I try to hold firm to that. And then You know, next thing you know,
43:38.951 --> 43:42.181
oh, look at that. The other things. Now you're eating the other things. You started
43:42.681 --> 43:45.153
with the blueberries, you ate all of them, and then you slowly started to eat
43:45.653 --> 43:48.737
the other things. 'Cause you know what? You, you are hungry and eating feels good
43:49.235 --> 43:52.079
and you know nothing else is coming. So yeah, you know what? This isn't so
43:52.579 --> 43:55.678
bad. This is fascinating 'cause I've,
43:56.000 --> 43:59.278
90% of me agrees with it. Like I, in concept
43:59.358 --> 44:02.877
and in theory, and that 10% of me who's not doing
44:02.974 --> 44:06.794
any of this. It's like, but because as
44:06.858 --> 44:10.084
a parent, you then have to accept like the fear
44:10.453 --> 44:13.679
that you put in yourself of like, but they, I needed them to eat.
44:13.824 --> 44:17.258
Like we were talking about before and the nourishment that needs to get
44:17.758 --> 44:21.126
in there. And like, I know that toddlers sometimes will eat air and sometimes will
44:21.287 --> 44:25.026
eat a whole casserole, but like, you know, it varies
44:25.122 --> 44:28.397
in wherever they are, but it's still like a harder pill to swallow.
44:28.894 --> 44:32.168
Yeah. This is where, like, when I would say this to a kid that I
44:32.200 --> 44:35.991
was working with, like, and they're like having— they're like
44:36.039 --> 44:39.878
underweight, like the parent would be like have a heart attack. Like, and yeah,
44:39.991 --> 44:43.878
because that is so much more stress. So baby steps
44:43.926 --> 44:46.978
too. Like, she's already not picky, so I can do this because I know,
44:47.685 --> 44:51.717
I know that she will— like, this happens not that often in our household,
44:52.103 --> 44:54.592
but if you're already— if so, like, what do I do? Like, oh, my kid's
44:55.092 --> 44:57.982
already picky. Like, what do I do for that? So you make their meal that
44:58.482 --> 45:01.178
they, you know, that they love these 3 things. So it has that,
45:01.515 --> 45:05.353
and then put a little bit of a non-preferred or a new food
45:05.853 --> 45:08.805
on the side. That's like, that's just part of the meal today. You don't have
45:09.305 --> 45:12.032
to eat it. Yeah. You don't have to touch it. It's just there. And kind
45:12.532 --> 45:16.095
of work away, work your way like the opposite way. Like, here's their safe foods,
45:16.352 --> 45:19.579
but I'm always gonna be adding. So, uh, in the example I gave with my
45:20.079 --> 45:23.561
family, like one safe food, 3 other foods that I'm not sure what she'll
45:23.657 --> 45:27.333
do with it, you would just flip that. Like, 3 safe foods,
45:27.510 --> 45:30.830
1 new food. And you just— yeah. And, and, and don't get me
45:31.330 --> 45:33.718
wrong, like, there's times I should be like, I don't want that. And she like
45:34.199 --> 45:36.926
flips out like we've never done this concept before.
45:37.616 --> 45:41.162
And just some— I just tell you like, okay, you don't
45:41.662 --> 45:43.905
have to— it will be on, it will be on your plate, or it will
45:43.969 --> 45:46.680
be on your plate. You don't have to touch it. You don't have to eat
45:47.180 --> 45:50.482
it. And like, and it's funny too, because it's like, you know, sometimes I'm like,
45:51.108 --> 45:53.561
I, I do this for work, and then You know, my mom will be over,
45:53.577 --> 45:56.719
she'll be like, you're, you're pushing her too much. Like, it's too much. And I'll
45:57.219 --> 46:00.085
start to like kind of have doubt in myself, but then sure enough, 30 minutes
46:00.585 --> 46:03.915
later, I elbow her, hey, look, and she's eating the food that we just had
46:04.415 --> 46:07.538
a 15-minute meltdown over wanting to throw off the
46:08.038 --> 46:11.353
table. Right. Yeah. So it is interesting because I do
46:11.385 --> 46:14.911
have in like, without knowing this intuitively, I just
46:15.411 --> 46:17.555
have a safe, I always have a safe food, but in my head I would
46:18.055 --> 46:20.280
call it like a starter food because even when they were little, it's like the
46:20.360 --> 46:23.695
thing they like. Current one put there, and then it gets them to start eating,
46:23.727 --> 46:26.901
and then they eat the whole plate. Eating begets eating. It's like they start eating,
46:26.997 --> 46:30.876
right? Favorite. And people might know this too from like, just like
46:31.004 --> 46:34.226
into, like, as an adult too, like intuitive eating and food has no
46:34.726 --> 46:37.433
morality and some of those kinds of things. Like, go ahead and put the,
46:37.673 --> 46:41.168
like, the dessert right on the, the plate with the dinner plate.
46:41.584 --> 46:45.672
And, you know, instead of like making that level of like, this food's
46:46.172 --> 46:48.624
better. So, you know what I mean? It's like, The message you are sending,
46:48.736 --> 46:51.883
if you're like, eat all your broccoli so you can have that cookie, you're just
46:52.383 --> 46:55.961
saying to them like, yeah, broccoli sucks and cookies are like,
46:56.427 --> 46:59.734
I'm going, here's your dinner. You have one cookie, you have 3 pieces of
47:00.234 --> 47:02.865
broccoli, and you have a piece of meat. Yeah, maybe they'll start with the,
47:03.106 --> 47:05.819
with the cookie first, but if,
47:06.542 --> 47:09.978
and then again, you know, we were talking about with the, from bringing up baby,
47:10.010 --> 47:13.253
if you're not, if you're not having them graze all day, you're having that nice,
47:13.301 --> 47:16.636
like Right. Mealtime with space in between,
47:16.748 --> 47:20.419
like they are gonna be hungry and they're gonna start with
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their favorite and then kind of go like, oh, that's feeling good. Eating's feeling good.
47:24.586 --> 47:27.809
And they keep going. Right. You know, you'll notice. Yeah. Generally my kid,
47:27.825 --> 47:30.902
I'll put the thing that they like and then yes, they, it sort of follows
47:30.999 --> 47:34.317
the, what you're saying. But most of the time I'm feeding them things that I
47:34.817 --> 47:38.308
know they will eat and I'll put something new knowing that my daughter might,
47:38.789 --> 47:42.156
used to definitely try it. Now it's hit or miss. Um, but my
47:42.656 --> 47:45.590
son will not, but before he would like throw it off his plate or And
47:46.090 --> 47:48.130
he still will be like, I don't want that. And now I just say,
47:48.630 --> 47:51.390
okay, eat around it. And he'll leave it there, which is a huge— like,
47:51.890 --> 47:55.330
that's, that is, that is huge step. Huge step. Yeah. So he'll,
47:55.830 --> 47:59.330
that's good. Um, but then, so I'm like, I'm naturally doing the things
47:59.830 --> 48:03.810
you're saying and also not because even my daughter who's not picky at all will
48:04.310 --> 48:07.110
eat things and then go, I want something else. And I'm like, okay, what do
48:07.610 --> 48:09.870
you want? And she tells me and it's made for her. I gotta go make
48:10.370 --> 48:13.130
it. Okay. Like we, that is a, and none of my, most of my friends
48:13.630 --> 48:15.330
don't do this, but I, we are like short order cooks in our house.
48:15.830 --> 48:18.595
It's like, what do you want? Okay. I'll go make it. That thing, it's usually,
48:19.574 --> 48:22.545
I, I would say the same things and I'd say, you're not a short order
48:23.045 --> 48:26.062
cook, you know, like that's what the rule is. That's what it is. And I
48:26.255 --> 48:29.113
will say, I do recommend like, okay, well,
48:29.692 --> 48:33.417
you know, especially like, you know, you do that. They, they are
48:33.465 --> 48:36.533
okay with the idea of like, okay, those other foods are there. And there's some
48:36.597 --> 48:39.311
like discretion that has to be used. Like let's say they eat all the blueberries
48:39.343 --> 48:41.864
and they're really not going for the other things. Like I want to have more
48:41.913 --> 48:45.831
blueberries that I'm more okay with than like adding something else that was never
48:46.331 --> 48:48.975
on the meal in the first place. That's amazing. And you know why I know
48:49.475 --> 48:52.740
this definitely works? And maybe, I don't know if this could
48:53.240 --> 48:56.442
go both ways, but I send things to school that I
48:56.942 --> 48:59.342
know at home they'd be like, I'm not gonna eat this. And I know they
48:59.455 --> 49:02.900
clear their plate at school. Like we, then my kids eat salmon a lot
49:03.236 --> 49:05.800
and it's always because I sent it to school. If I whipped out salmon at
49:06.300 --> 49:09.390
home, they'd be like, I don't want this right now. 'Cause I know there's 100
49:09.890 --> 49:12.467
other things in the fridge. I mean, that happens for me as an adult.
49:12.691 --> 49:16.260
I pack a salad for lunch, and when I get to lunch,
49:16.760 --> 49:19.780
I'm absolutely starving, and it is the most appetizing thing. I'm like, oh my God,
49:20.280 --> 49:23.700
I need to eat. Like, but if I'm at home and I've been grazing all
49:24.200 --> 49:27.300
day, you know, like, let's say it's like a holiday meal, you got like crackers
49:27.800 --> 49:30.360
and cheese and you're grazing on stuff, like, I'm not gonna go like, oh,
49:30.860 --> 49:34.340
look at that delicious salad, you know what I mean? Right, right. The,
49:34.840 --> 49:38.400
the setup beforehand of like, this is the only food I have, I brought this
49:38.900 --> 49:40.980
from home, I have 30 minutes to eat lunch, it's the only food I have,
49:41.480 --> 49:44.658
and I'm starving. That the way you eat that
49:45.158 --> 49:48.651
food is such a different experience than if you're like, not that hungry, and yeah,
49:48.683 --> 49:51.554
I can eat that, but like, what else is here? Like this other food that's
49:52.054 --> 49:55.435
like more, you know, appetizing. And that goes in like the cookie. Yeah, like eating
49:55.935 --> 49:58.466
because you're hungry, you're eating because you're bored kind of thing. Like the same things
49:58.966 --> 50:02.443
apply to our, our toddlers. And so yeah, that's a perfect example.
50:02.604 --> 50:06.003
Like they got sent to school, they probably don't even put up a fight because
50:06.052 --> 50:07.319
they know like, well,
50:07.415 --> 50:11.119
there's What's in the lunchbox is all I'm going to have. So either
50:11.619 --> 50:14.936
eat it or don't eat it. There's no other choice, you know? Yeah. And you
50:14.952 --> 50:19.186
have the ability to enforce that across the board. Oh man.
50:19.523 --> 50:22.811
Nope. My kids are like, mom, I want this. And I'm like, okay, but sometimes
50:23.311 --> 50:25.216
we don't have it. And I'm like, we don't have that. And then they go,
50:25.232 --> 50:28.745
can you buy that for me? And I'm like, yes, but right now it doesn't
50:29.245 --> 50:33.315
exist. Yeah. So have what you're going to have. And yeah.
50:34.133 --> 50:37.583
You know, Zoe is only 12 months. So I'm here, I am, you know,
50:37.823 --> 50:40.695
I do know these things work as far as like, these are recommendations I would
50:41.195 --> 50:43.888
give to a parent if they came into a session and then I apply them
50:44.144 --> 50:47.080
at home and I'm like, ooh, they're working amazing. Look at this.
50:47.754 --> 50:50.096
Work and home are about measuring up.
50:50.642 --> 50:54.364
And then maybe Zoe will be, I'll be doing all the right things and
50:54.412 --> 50:56.914
she'll just, and then I'll be like, oh, well, I'll have to, I'll have to
50:56.931 --> 51:00.525
do a new episode. And I'll be like, well, I was— A year from now,
51:00.766 --> 51:04.411
we will check in where you're like, humbled again.
51:04.539 --> 51:07.783
But, um, no, generally those are like, those are my,
51:08.473 --> 51:11.749
my recommendations of like, try not to have grazing so
51:12.249 --> 51:15.666
that you're building that appetite, hunger, fullness cycle. So they come to
51:15.699 --> 51:19.167
a meal, you're gonna try something new if you're starving. You might try
51:19.667 --> 51:22.410
something new if you're starving. You're not if you're full, you're just gonna eat your
51:22.426 --> 51:26.216
favorites. So like, that is one. Try your best
51:26.716 --> 51:30.214
to be like, this is what's being served. Like, and, and, you know, plan ahead,
51:30.230 --> 51:33.441
like put at least one or two things that, you know, they'll eat, but don't
51:33.941 --> 51:36.380
give into that, like getting something else out. Um,
51:37.777 --> 51:41.438
no, those are perfect. And I feel like because
51:41.454 --> 51:43.975
you are my best friend, I could sit here and talk to you for hours
51:44.475 --> 51:47.717
and hours and hours, but I'm not going to make you do that. Um,
51:48.038 --> 51:51.233
so I just, I was going to ask for like a main tip in
51:51.410 --> 51:54.493
closing or a biggest takeaway, but I feel like food-wise you just said
51:54.541 --> 51:58.519
that. So is there Anything else that I,
51:58.968 --> 52:03.055
we can, should close on or anything else that we didn't cover?
52:03.921 --> 52:08.298
I think basically just kind of trust
52:08.330 --> 52:11.985
your gut. If you feel like something's wrong, if you feel like something's off,
52:12.113 --> 52:15.399
like my philosophy is like, why not have it looked at
52:15.899 --> 52:18.654
by the person that that's their, their expertise?
52:19.102 --> 52:22.213
So, you know, you have concerns about motor. You know,
52:22.438 --> 52:25.071
ask for that PT eval. If you have concerns about language,
52:25.569 --> 52:28.299
ask for the speech eval. Um, and you know, you,
52:28.700 --> 52:31.590
you could talk to your pediatrician about it, but, um, you know,
52:32.168 --> 52:35.621
you know, like try to find that intuition that I feel
52:36.121 --> 52:39.410
like is hard for us to have because there's, you know, social media, there's all
52:39.910 --> 52:43.167
these experts out there. But you know, if you're worried about it, just, just get
52:43.667 --> 52:46.957
that reassurance from someone that is in that field, you know?
52:48.849 --> 52:52.297
Well, I love you. You're the best. I'm so grateful that you exist
52:52.797 --> 52:56.515
for so many reasons. So I will link everything
52:56.563 --> 52:57.975
about you below.
52:59.354 --> 53:02.754
And yeah, go back to your babies. Thank you. Thank you.
53:02.802 --> 53:05.849
Thank you for listening, for joining today. I'm so happy
53:05.865 --> 53:09.554
to have you. If you liked this episode or any of the episodes
53:09.634 --> 53:13.659
before, please consider rating and reviewing the podcast or
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sending the episode to a friend who it might help.
53:17.348 --> 53:21.025
For important takeaways that you don't want to forget, I write a
53:21.525 --> 53:24.927
little recap on Substack along with other articles about motherhood,
53:24.959 --> 53:27.977
marriage, spirituality, everything that falls in between.
53:28.491 --> 53:31.718
So you can head there to Soul Love with Sam,
53:32.264 --> 53:35.812
same as my Instagram, and subscribe. And I'll
53:36.312 --> 53:37.338
see you next week. Thank you.