WEBVTT
00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:12.720
Hello and welcome to PMI's Gampification, the podcast where we explore the real stories behind performance improvement and bringing improvements to where the work is actually done.
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:17.440
And of course, we talk about the highs and lows of making improvements.
00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:35.439
So I'm your host, Savannah Clark, managing partner of PMI, and today I'm joined by Carla Smith, Program Manager Life Sciences in the Strategy, Innovation and Planning Team for the Midlands Cancer Alliance's Life Science Hub.
00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:37.759
As you can tell, I've been practicing that.
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.000
Great to have you with me today, Carla.
00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:42.960
How are you?
00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:44.560
A pleasure.
00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:45.600
A pleasure, Suze.
00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:48.159
All good in the NHS world.
00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.079
Yes, always a positive experience.
00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:51.280
Good to hear.
00:00:51.520 --> 00:01:03.600
So before we get started, I know you're currently working on Secondment, and I just wondered if you could give us a little bit of insight into what that means and what you're currently working on.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:05.280
Okay, yeah, sure.
00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:12.640
So Second um really just means that I'm working uh with another team for a specific period of time.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:21.840
And that was um uh a much needed request given that the you know the um the the improvement apprenticeship that I undertook recently.
00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.280
Uh we needed to be in a space where we really did need some improvement.
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:42.959
And the team that I'm seconded with, the Life Science Hub, it is really about getting those people on board from industry, from pharma, from academia into a single repository, the hub, um, to help some of those um challenging um areas of the cancer pathways and to offer solutions.
00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:44.480
So it's been absolutely fantastic.
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:45.120
Wonderful.
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:46.879
Well, we wish you well with that.
00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.680
Uh so let's get started with gamification.
00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:59.599
You wonder if you could just give us a bit of context about what was the process improvement or the transformation that you feel made a real difference for you.
00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.079
Okay, so I guess it was starting with the the problem.
00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:25.919
Um, and and the problem, uh as you can imagine, when there's lots of players and lots of stakeholders all trying to work towards a single goal, is is the communication styles, but equally the how people, I suppose in the in the old days as my age, write down their communication so people know what each other's doing to be able to add value and support where's needed.
00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:39.199
Um, so the the improvement project that I chose was around a database to help people understand on each day as a sprint where we were, where we need to get to, and how do we get there as a team.
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:39.840
Right.
00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:41.120
Okay, okay.
00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:42.719
And that was completely new.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:50.159
So I'm presuming that before that that didn't exist in any format or any format it was in was a bit random, is that right?
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.759
Yes, yeah, I would say that's right.
00:02:53.840 --> 00:03:05.520
Um, not to say that nothing existed, it's just people have very sort of different ways of of communicating and their styles, and a lot of information intel was held locally.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:14.879
So when you've got a team of uh of stakeholders, you know, from different areas, some NHS, some non-NHS, it's very difficult for that single repository.
00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:16.719
Okay, yeah, yeah, I understand.
00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:20.479
So, how did you kind of mobilize everybody and get them on board?
00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:34.879
So the the original um request or the requ you know, the the the ask of of the stakeholders was really understanding how they like to work, how they need to work, and what they were looking for in a system.
00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:39.599
And and that is a key question that we needed or I needed to ask them.
00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:47.919
And it's it always sounds like we're assuming things in any industry that there's got to be a database somewhere that everybody can just plug into.
00:03:48.319 --> 00:04:01.439
Actually, there's probably more database and more technology than there ever was, particularly at the NHS, and the integration of single platforms coming together as a hub was the major problem as well.
00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:08.719
So I guess in terms of answering the question, the first thing that I had to do was was to go out to the stakeholders and ask what does a good look like.
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:19.040
And so was it clear who the stakeholders were in this example for some part it's it's evolving uh with the NHS.
00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:28.480
So sometimes industry partners will come in and they'll do a small project with us and and then exit, and somebody else will come in and do another piece like academia.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:40.959
So as you can imagine, the needs and the wants of many stakeholders is quite a difficult task, which is why we needed to ask what good look like, and then work through how does that work for you.
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:51.040
And um what would you say went you know particularly well when you look back at this and you think, what did I learn from that, and what must I remember to do next time?
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:07.279
I think my learning or my lesson learnt from this particular project was that there's certain ages of digital readiness, um, and and I mean that from a process and a person perspective.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:17.759
A lot of people um w within the Midlands, you know, they have a huge amount of knowledge, but doesn't necessarily mean they've got a huge amount of knowledge in a digital system.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:38.399
So for me, going forwards, if I had to do something differently, it would be to maybe to cohort the two sets of people I like to call the people people, those that can talk all day long and have a lot of intel and knowledge, and others that will gain a lot of their intel and knowledge through data systems, and they're what I call the robotic people.
00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:44.240
And and sometimes that it has to be two different communication styles, right?
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.959
And not necessarily that everybody has to do the same thing at the same time.
00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:51.920
And you mentioned the word sprints.
00:05:52.079 --> 00:06:12.000
So, I mean, having uh so is that part of how once you've got that system in place for managing all of the different initiatives, how how what did you do to sort of bring that into making it a reality so that everybody was involved and and knew where everything was?
00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:20.480
So it was quite complex um and um uh you know a learning a learning opportunity for myself.
00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:29.360
So we needed people to be in the same place at the same time to be able to design or create a single repository.
00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:44.480
The the robotic people were the ones to build it, but clearly if they didn't have the conversations with the people, people on how they could enter or input information, there was going to be a a barrier, you know, or a bottleneck at some point.
00:06:44.639 --> 00:07:05.279
So when I when I say sprint, it was really about me as an improvement practitioner having the conversations with different people at pace and trying to put all that together, integrate it all into a single brief, I suppose, and go back out the next day perhaps and say, look, does this look good or is this a delight?
00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:22.480
Those sort of tools that we've learned through the programme, um, which can be quite challenging with a lot of stakeholders, so there needed to be some some deadlines, some clear deadlines that we need to make this decision, and you know, if things need to change as we go through, then that will be part of a change request or some change management.
00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:27.439
And and as an interest, how long did the process take for that project?
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:33.120
The project aligned with my learning through through the apprenticeship.
00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:40.959
So in an ideal world, I suppose, um, as in probably a lot of industry, everything needs to be done ASAP.
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:51.759
By doing an apprenticeship, it gave me some headspace to be able to think about things a more clearly than than it would have normally done in a a sprint or agile environment.
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:57.279
Um that said, a few hours a week was the opportune time for me to do that piece of work.
00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:00.319
So it was a a sprint for a few hours per week.
00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:01.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:01.839
Yeah.
00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:03.600
And but easily adaptable.
00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:04.879
Yes, yes.
00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:06.240
And sometimes you're right.
00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:15.759
Uh doing something over a a longer period of time if you've got the space for it means that you can also really like keep that learning going, can't you?
00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:16.560
Yeah.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:17.279
Yeah.
00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:18.959
I think from both sides, yeah.
00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:40.320
You know, to keep people engaged because people are very overwhelmed and you know, in in any industry or, you know, work projects that are people working on, the the tendency is being overwhelmed and being um over tasked, you know, um having to do a little bit of everything nowadays rather than some of the sort of culture shift I've seen in my time in the NHS.
00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:47.519
There's not a person for a speciality, it's uh you know, a job of all trades as you go through if you can help.
00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:55.679
And and so are you able to share just at a high level some of the results you've seen through this project?
00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.000
Yeah, results um so interesting.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:15.039
So what we found was um what I found a lot of duplication, a lot of the work that went into designing um the database, you know, the database when it was agreed, a colleague said, but we already have this.
00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:20.080
So some of it was knowledge, some was like, Well, actually we've got it while we're not using it.
00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:28.960
And again, I think it come, you know, came down to people's perceptions of I don't like that database, I don't like to use this, so therefore it doesn't exist.
00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:37.600
So going through an improvement practitioner methodology, such as the the Lean Six Sigma, what was was crucial.
00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:43.200
Actually, you know, looking at that data and finding that something does exist was a really good starting point.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:51.759
Um, so so for me, you know, any tip for anybody undertaking an improvement project would actually, you know, first thing, go and get the data.
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:52.879
It's really crucial.
00:09:53.200 --> 00:10:01.360
Having established this new way of working, what have you sort of put in place to make sure it continues to remain up to date?
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:11.440
Yeah, okay, so on team meetings now we refer to the the the database and we make sure where we can that we utilize the database.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:26.960
The original plan was for everybody to access and input, but through people management and expertise that we we've changed it slightly as we've been going through that certain people will put the intel in.
00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:34.080
Some people are more comfortable with with you know data input, and some people are better at evaluating the data that's in there.
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:39.200
So we we're using it now on a weekly basis to say this is where we are, where do we need to get to?
00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:42.000
So actually, what do we need to do this week as a sprint?
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:52.320
And have you I mean, you know, I know um uh uh Turkey's vote for Christmas and all that, but when you sit back, do you look at this and say, I can really see now?
00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.559
Does it give you the vision of of of where you are and what's going on?
00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:01.919
And and and and I suppose the second part of that, asking two questions at once.
00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:07.200
Um how does it help you manage all of those improvements?
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.639
Okay, so this is a good question, and and comes back to sort of that data.
00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:20.320
When somebody can physically see something in front of them, that is where we are at this moment in time, that is the performance.
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:27.120
You you may get one or two people in a team that say, Oh no, but we're further ahead than that because I know this and and I've done this.
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:31.279
But actually, it's the data, and the data is the evidence.
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:36.639
Um, so that's that's what I've learned in terms of going week by week.
00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:47.519
It's great that you have a database, unless people can put into their own mindset and you evolve a culture of understanding that this is the repository.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:52.960
Um, otherwise people would just soon forget about it and and the whole thing would be lost again, going back to localization.
00:11:53.200 --> 00:12:00.159
Yeah, and I guess you is about bringing it into those team meetings, there's that regular attention to it, isn't there, which would help.
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:01.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:23.440
Yeah, but it could I mean so the benefits that you mentioned, Suze, it's the benefits of seeing your work in that data also for some people who undersell themselves in the workplace, to be able to to put that intel into an evaluation or an assessment by somebody from a senior really does show that what you are doing is part of the vision of the team getting where they need to be.
00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.360
Yeah, particularly in a cancer space.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.559
Yes, yes.
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:29.519
And and I mean it it is it's ridiculous, isn't it?
00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:46.399
Because uh in many ways it seems like the most obvious thing to do that you know, you put everything together so that everybody in the system understands and knows what's going on, and in particular, those people who are at the top of the organization can see and can make sure that everyone's on target for what they need to do.
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.080
But it isn't often that visibility, you know, it isn't often that it happens.
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:56.639
So um I can imagine it actually is quite a difficult the little silos everyone works in.
00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:58.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:06.559
And and what we've learned from from industry in terms of that they have different methodologies that industry use against what the NHS might use.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:14.080
But if you ask anybody in a private industry, they're more likely to know where all their colleagues are at that time and who they're talking to and about what.
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.919
Well, so Carla's on site today, go and you know, catch Carla while she's there.
00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:21.600
Doesn't necessarily mirror in an NHS perspective.
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:27.840
So there's there was lots of lessons to be learned from from both that that cross-fertilization of of input at the beginning.
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:28.639
Interesting.
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:29.600
Interesting.
00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:36.240
So if you were to move on to the sort of well, what didn't go so well, do you want to stay with the same project?
00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:49.679
I think what doesn't go so well in in any project is if you have a clash of ideas and and a clash of what is the what's the point of this?
00:13:50.159 --> 00:14:00.480
Especially if you've got a smaller team, they may not be may not be visible of what the point is because quite frankly, you can have a team meeting every week and everybody will know what you're doing anyway.
00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:01.679
And that's great.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:08.639
But actually understanding what is happening tomorrow before the next team meeting, you know, is just as crucial.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:15.120
So you you're removing that duplication and and you remain professionalism, you know, that professionalism remains, sorry.
00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:37.519
So what didn't or didn't go well was me being too open to everybody's idea, and and I guess the lesson for that is for me to say this is the strict brief and this is the strict scope, um, and in an evolving sort of NHS, I think that's even more crucial.
00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:47.679
So what didn't go well for me was just being overly nice at the beginning and needing to be stronger to say this is this is what's needed and this is what's needed for now.
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.639
I think but I think what you're talking about there is um is very common.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:15:00.559
You know, we're all very keen that um everybody should feel heard um and that their thoughts have been taken into account.
00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:09.360
And but how do you manage that versus that's not the scope of this project, and then not demotivating them from being involved.
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:10.480
Absolutely.
00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:25.039
Yeah, I mean everybody has their own values and the home behaviours that you know, and everybody wants to do a good job, but they do it in their own way, and you know, sometimes it's just not possible to do an activity with everybody on a on a you know on board.
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:27.360
It it's the the classic change management, isn't it?
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:34.720
That might not be on board straight the way understanding the barriers sometimes time itself is the barrier when you're having to sprint with something.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:47.440
And in general, if you think about sort of if I was gonna start this again, are there any things that you look at and you think, oh I'd do that differently next time?
00:15:49.519 --> 00:16:07.440
Yeah, I mean I'm a people people person, um, so I would I would commission somebody more sort of techy to be able to say, do you know what, perhaps Carl doesn't have to have a conversation with every single stakeholder that would take away my my joy.
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:16.399
Um but you know, there are ways now, aren't they, of communicating to people through social media, you know, through forms and all the the technology that's offered to us.
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:33.120
So I think, you know, for for me going forward, if I needed to do this again, I would be commissioning someone to say, can you help me get all this digital technology um utilised so that that we can get some of the responses back a little quicker than me needing to talk to everybody.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:33.840
Yeah.
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.240
Um it's difficult with the NHS, isn't it?
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.759
It it's when your NHS, we we tend to be those talkers, those care in, spend time with people.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:55.279
The reality though is we are moving much more into a a tech and an AI and a robotic world, and it may deter some people from giving their feedback or or or their ideas.
00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:00.799
Um there's never a win-win, but I think in terms of speed that that needs to be adopted now.
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:02.399
Yes, it's interesting, isn't it?
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:09.119
Because of course we all talk about engagement, um, you know, and we we put together stakeholder engagement a lot.
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:16.720
Um and the sense has historically been that that stakeholder engagement comes from having the conversations.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:17.599
Yeah.
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:33.839
So uh Yeah, and in different communities, you know, some people are very more open to conversations and uh particularly in a cancer space, there are those that might not want to be um heard, you know, if if they've sadly, you know, um sort of got cancer and things.
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:39.039
It's understanding those cultures from the beginning is is the key, but it takes time.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.440
Yes, yes, it does, yes.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:57.200
And it and it's absolutely you're right about knowing where people are, and perhaps maybe you can do one thing for the majority, but you know there are a couple that you still gotta pay um attention to and and have that one-to-one time with.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:57.839
Yeah.
00:17:58.079 --> 00:17:59.440
Yeah, I can understand that.
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:00.720
I can understand that.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:17.839
Um, so when you look back, you know, I I as we know through projects, you know, we need to create an environment where people feel safe to explore, feel safe to make mistakes, feel safe to fail.
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:25.200
You know, what do you think are some of the keys to ensuring you can create that safe space for everyone who's involved?
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:31.519
So the the psychological safety, I think, is is probably the openness of the people.
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:49.440
Um in in some conversations, uh perhaps removing with recording, removing the the emails, that you know, the chats, the MS teams, and and just having a face-to-face conversation helps with that psychological safety.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:59.839
I think then in terms of other sort of projects I'm sort of being involved in, it it it's um trust, isn't it?
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.960
It it's trust and really feeling confident that uh people are here to genuinely help.
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:05.519
Yes.
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:12.000
Um and and sometimes I think that that needs to be be removed from the from the technology.
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:23.519
You know, we have lots of platforms and I'm sure lots of organizations will have like well-being platforms and and you know, log on to here and talk to this person and press number three to talk to someone.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:38.160
Well, actually it's great, but I think there is a a slight fear still behind some people that you know I can be recorded, people will know that I've called and and I might get an unexpected text or or a call and and not want that.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:43.920
So it's a real it's a real complex um environment with psychological safety.
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:53.839
So I guess understanding the the people or the person and and see what works best for them, but face-to-face is always the the key thing for me to remove that that barrier.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:20:05.839
And if you were meeting someone tomorrow and they said to you, Oh, I've got my first improvement project to start, what what would be your advice to them?
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:11.359
That's that's that's a good question.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:17.680
So I I would say absolutely sort of understand from the beginning the scope.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:30.079
What is it that you really need, whether it's a short term, a quick fix, or whether there's something here that you need to look at for you know for sustainability and and look at that cost and the benefit associated with it.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:38.000
Don't put a lot of cost or a lot of time in for something so short term if it's not going to have the impact that you're looking for.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.880
And then it it's again just looking at the data.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:53.119
Absolutely understand why the problem exists because it could be a person, it could be the people themselves, and not adopting something that's already available equally.
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:58.319
It could be that technologies move so fast and and that that repository is no longer suitable.
00:20:58.480 --> 00:20:59.119
Yeah.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.599
Interesting, Color.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:07.519
I'm fascinating to hear all about kind of both what's gone well and some of the challenges.
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.279
And really appreciate you sharing all of that with us.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.880
Um so thank you everyone for listening.
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:21.359
If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, share, leave us a review.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:26.240
Um, because the more we grow, the better everyone's work becomes.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:31.440
You can always find more insights at pmi.co.uk and you can follow us on LinkedIn.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.960
But for now, Carla, I'd like to say once again thank you so much.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.119
Really appreciate your time today.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.640
It's been a pleasure, Sears.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:39.839
Thank you for inviting me.
00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:12.720
Hello and welcome to PMI's Gampification, the podcast where we explore the real stories behind performance improvement and bringing improvements to where the work is actually done.
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:17.440
And of course, we talk about the highs and lows of making improvements.
00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:35.439
So I'm your host, Savannah Clark, managing partner of PMI, and today I'm joined by Carla Smith, Program Manager Life Sciences in the Strategy, Innovation and Planning Team for the Midlands Cancer Alliance's Life Science Hub.
00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:37.759
As you can tell, I've been practicing that.
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.000
Great to have you with me today, Carla.
00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:42.960
How are you?
00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:44.560
A pleasure.
00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:45.600
A pleasure, Suze.
00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:48.159
All good in the NHS world.
00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.079
Yes, always a positive experience.
00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:51.280
Good to hear.
00:00:51.520 --> 00:01:03.600
So before we get started, I know you're currently working on Secondment, and I just wondered if you could give us a little bit of insight into what that means and what you're currently working on.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:05.280
Okay, yeah, sure.
00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:12.640
So Second um really just means that I'm working uh with another team for a specific period of time.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:21.840
And that was um uh a much needed request given that the you know the um the the improvement apprenticeship that I undertook recently.
00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.280
Uh we needed to be in a space where we really did need some improvement.
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:42.959
And the team that I'm seconded with, the Life Science Hub, it is really about getting those people on board from industry, from pharma, from academia into a single repository, the hub, um, to help some of those um challenging um areas of the cancer pathways and to offer solutions.
00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:44.480
So it's been absolutely fantastic.
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:45.120
Wonderful.
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:46.879
Well, we wish you well with that.
00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.680
Uh so let's get started with gamification.
00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:59.599
You wonder if you could just give us a bit of context about what was the process improvement or the transformation that you feel made a real difference for you.
00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.079
Okay, so I guess it was starting with the the problem.
00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:25.919
Um, and and the problem, uh as you can imagine, when there's lots of players and lots of stakeholders all trying to work towards a single goal, is is the communication styles, but equally the how people, I suppose in the in the old days as my age, write down their communication so people know what each other's doing to be able to add value and support where's needed.
00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:39.199
Um, so the the improvement project that I chose was around a database to help people understand on each day as a sprint where we were, where we need to get to, and how do we get there as a team.
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:39.840
Right.
00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:41.120
Okay, okay.
00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:42.719
And that was completely new.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:50.159
So I'm presuming that before that that didn't exist in any format or any format it was in was a bit random, is that right?
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.759
Yes, yeah, I would say that's right.
00:02:53.840 --> 00:03:05.520
Um, not to say that nothing existed, it's just people have very sort of different ways of of communicating and their styles, and a lot of information intel was held locally.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:14.879
So when you've got a team of uh of stakeholders, you know, from different areas, some NHS, some non-NHS, it's very difficult for that single repository.
00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:16.719
Okay, yeah, yeah, I understand.
00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:20.479
So, how did you kind of mobilize everybody and get them on board?
00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:34.879
So the the original um request or the requ you know, the the the ask of of the stakeholders was really understanding how they like to work, how they need to work, and what they were looking for in a system.
00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:39.599
And and that is a key question that we needed or I needed to ask them.
00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:47.919
And it's it always sounds like we're assuming things in any industry that there's got to be a database somewhere that everybody can just plug into.
00:03:48.319 --> 00:04:01.439
Actually, there's probably more database and more technology than there ever was, particularly at the NHS, and the integration of single platforms coming together as a hub was the major problem as well.
00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:08.719
So I guess in terms of answering the question, the first thing that I had to do was was to go out to the stakeholders and ask what does a good look like.
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:19.040
And so was it clear who the stakeholders were in this example for some part it's it's evolving uh with the NHS.
00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:28.480
So sometimes industry partners will come in and they'll do a small project with us and and then exit, and somebody else will come in and do another piece like academia.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:40.959
So as you can imagine, the needs and the wants of many stakeholders is quite a difficult task, which is why we needed to ask what good look like, and then work through how does that work for you.
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:51.040
And um what would you say went you know particularly well when you look back at this and you think, what did I learn from that, and what must I remember to do next time?
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:07.279
I think my learning or my lesson learnt from this particular project was that there's certain ages of digital readiness, um, and and I mean that from a process and a person perspective.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:17.759
A lot of people um w within the Midlands, you know, they have a huge amount of knowledge, but doesn't necessarily mean they've got a huge amount of knowledge in a digital system.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:38.399
So for me, going forwards, if I had to do something differently, it would be to maybe to cohort the two sets of people I like to call the people people, those that can talk all day long and have a lot of intel and knowledge, and others that will gain a lot of their intel and knowledge through data systems, and they're what I call the robotic people.
00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:44.240
And and sometimes that it has to be two different communication styles, right?
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.959
And not necessarily that everybody has to do the same thing at the same time.
00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:51.920
And you mentioned the word sprints.
00:05:52.079 --> 00:06:12.000
So, I mean, having uh so is that part of how once you've got that system in place for managing all of the different initiatives, how how what did you do to sort of bring that into making it a reality so that everybody was involved and and knew where everything was?
00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:20.480
So it was quite complex um and um uh you know a learning a learning opportunity for myself.
00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:29.360
So we needed people to be in the same place at the same time to be able to design or create a single repository.
00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:44.480
The the robotic people were the ones to build it, but clearly if they didn't have the conversations with the people, people on how they could enter or input information, there was going to be a a barrier, you know, or a bottleneck at some point.
00:06:44.639 --> 00:07:05.279
So when I when I say sprint, it was really about me as an improvement practitioner having the conversations with different people at pace and trying to put all that together, integrate it all into a single brief, I suppose, and go back out the next day perhaps and say, look, does this look good or is this a delight?
00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:22.480
Those sort of tools that we've learned through the programme, um, which can be quite challenging with a lot of stakeholders, so there needed to be some some deadlines, some clear deadlines that we need to make this decision, and you know, if things need to change as we go through, then that will be part of a change request or some change management.
00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:27.439
And and as an interest, how long did the process take for that project?
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:33.120
The project aligned with my learning through through the apprenticeship.
00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:40.959
So in an ideal world, I suppose, um, as in probably a lot of industry, everything needs to be done ASAP.
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:51.759
By doing an apprenticeship, it gave me some headspace to be able to think about things a more clearly than than it would have normally done in a a sprint or agile environment.
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:57.279
Um that said, a few hours a week was the opportune time for me to do that piece of work.
00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:00.319
So it was a a sprint for a few hours per week.
00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:01.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:01.839
Yeah.
00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:03.600
And but easily adaptable.
00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:04.879
Yes, yes.
00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:06.240
And sometimes you're right.
00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:15.759
Uh doing something over a a longer period of time if you've got the space for it means that you can also really like keep that learning going, can't you?
00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:16.560
Yeah.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:17.279
Yeah.
00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:18.959
I think from both sides, yeah.
00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:40.320
You know, to keep people engaged because people are very overwhelmed and you know, in in any industry or, you know, work projects that are people working on, the the tendency is being overwhelmed and being um over tasked, you know, um having to do a little bit of everything nowadays rather than some of the sort of culture shift I've seen in my time in the NHS.
00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:47.519
There's not a person for a speciality, it's uh you know, a job of all trades as you go through if you can help.
00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:55.679
And and so are you able to share just at a high level some of the results you've seen through this project?
00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.000
Yeah, results um so interesting.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:15.039
So what we found was um what I found a lot of duplication, a lot of the work that went into designing um the database, you know, the database when it was agreed, a colleague said, but we already have this.
00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:20.080
So some of it was knowledge, some was like, Well, actually we've got it while we're not using it.
00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:28.960
And again, I think it come, you know, came down to people's perceptions of I don't like that database, I don't like to use this, so therefore it doesn't exist.
00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:37.600
So going through an improvement practitioner methodology, such as the the Lean Six Sigma, what was was crucial.
00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:43.200
Actually, you know, looking at that data and finding that something does exist was a really good starting point.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:51.759
Um, so so for me, you know, any tip for anybody undertaking an improvement project would actually, you know, first thing, go and get the data.
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:52.879
It's really crucial.
00:09:53.200 --> 00:10:01.360
Having established this new way of working, what have you sort of put in place to make sure it continues to remain up to date?
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:11.440
Yeah, okay, so on team meetings now we refer to the the the database and we make sure where we can that we utilize the database.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:26.960
The original plan was for everybody to access and input, but through people management and expertise that we we've changed it slightly as we've been going through that certain people will put the intel in.
00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:34.080
Some people are more comfortable with with you know data input, and some people are better at evaluating the data that's in there.
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:39.200
So we we're using it now on a weekly basis to say this is where we are, where do we need to get to?
00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:42.000
So actually, what do we need to do this week as a sprint?
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:52.320
And have you I mean, you know, I know um uh uh Turkey's vote for Christmas and all that, but when you sit back, do you look at this and say, I can really see now?
00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.559
Does it give you the vision of of of where you are and what's going on?
00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:01.919
And and and and I suppose the second part of that, asking two questions at once.
00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:07.200
Um how does it help you manage all of those improvements?
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.639
Okay, so this is a good question, and and comes back to sort of that data.
00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:20.320
When somebody can physically see something in front of them, that is where we are at this moment in time, that is the performance.
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:27.120
You you may get one or two people in a team that say, Oh no, but we're further ahead than that because I know this and and I've done this.
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:31.279
But actually, it's the data, and the data is the evidence.
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:36.639
Um, so that's that's what I've learned in terms of going week by week.
00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:47.519
It's great that you have a database, unless people can put into their own mindset and you evolve a culture of understanding that this is the repository.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:52.960
Um, otherwise people would just soon forget about it and and the whole thing would be lost again, going back to localization.
00:11:53.200 --> 00:12:00.159
Yeah, and I guess you is about bringing it into those team meetings, there's that regular attention to it, isn't there, which would help.
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:01.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:23.440
Yeah, but it could I mean so the benefits that you mentioned, Suze, it's the benefits of seeing your work in that data also for some people who undersell themselves in the workplace, to be able to to put that intel into an evaluation or an assessment by somebody from a senior really does show that what you are doing is part of the vision of the team getting where they need to be.
00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.360
Yeah, particularly in a cancer space.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.559
Yes, yes.
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:29.519
And and I mean it it is it's ridiculous, isn't it?
00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:46.399
Because uh in many ways it seems like the most obvious thing to do that you know, you put everything together so that everybody in the system understands and knows what's going on, and in particular, those people who are at the top of the organization can see and can make sure that everyone's on target for what they need to do.
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.080
But it isn't often that visibility, you know, it isn't often that it happens.
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:56.639
So um I can imagine it actually is quite a difficult the little silos everyone works in.
00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:58.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:06.559
And and what we've learned from from industry in terms of that they have different methodologies that industry use against what the NHS might use.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:14.080
But if you ask anybody in a private industry, they're more likely to know where all their colleagues are at that time and who they're talking to and about what.
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.919
Well, so Carla's on site today, go and you know, catch Carla while she's there.
00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:21.600
Doesn't necessarily mirror in an NHS perspective.
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:27.840
So there's there was lots of lessons to be learned from from both that that cross-fertilization of of input at the beginning.
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:28.639
Interesting.
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:29.600
Interesting.
00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:36.240
So if you were to move on to the sort of well, what didn't go so well, do you want to stay with the same project?
00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:49.679
I think what doesn't go so well in in any project is if you have a clash of ideas and and a clash of what is the what's the point of this?
00:13:50.159 --> 00:14:00.480
Especially if you've got a smaller team, they may not be may not be visible of what the point is because quite frankly, you can have a team meeting every week and everybody will know what you're doing anyway.
00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:01.679
And that's great.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:08.639
But actually understanding what is happening tomorrow before the next team meeting, you know, is just as crucial.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:15.120
So you you're removing that duplication and and you remain professionalism, you know, that professionalism remains, sorry.
00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:37.519
So what didn't or didn't go well was me being too open to everybody's idea, and and I guess the lesson for that is for me to say this is the strict brief and this is the strict scope, um, and in an evolving sort of NHS, I think that's even more crucial.
00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:47.679
So what didn't go well for me was just being overly nice at the beginning and needing to be stronger to say this is this is what's needed and this is what's needed for now.
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.639
I think but I think what you're talking about there is um is very common.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:15:00.559
You know, we're all very keen that um everybody should feel heard um and that their thoughts have been taken into account.
00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:09.360
And but how do you manage that versus that's not the scope of this project, and then not demotivating them from being involved.
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:10.480
Absolutely.
00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:25.039
Yeah, I mean everybody has their own values and the home behaviours that you know, and everybody wants to do a good job, but they do it in their own way, and you know, sometimes it's just not possible to do an activity with everybody on a on a you know on board.
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:27.360
It it's the the classic change management, isn't it?
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:34.720
That might not be on board straight the way understanding the barriers sometimes time itself is the barrier when you're having to sprint with something.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:47.440
And in general, if you think about sort of if I was gonna start this again, are there any things that you look at and you think, oh I'd do that differently next time?
00:15:49.519 --> 00:16:07.440
Yeah, I mean I'm a people people person, um, so I would I would commission somebody more sort of techy to be able to say, do you know what, perhaps Carl doesn't have to have a conversation with every single stakeholder that would take away my my joy.
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:16.399
Um but you know, there are ways now, aren't they, of communicating to people through social media, you know, through forms and all the the technology that's offered to us.
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:33.120
So I think, you know, for for me going forward, if I needed to do this again, I would be commissioning someone to say, can you help me get all this digital technology um utilised so that that we can get some of the responses back a little quicker than me needing to talk to everybody.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:33.840
Yeah.
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.240
Um it's difficult with the NHS, isn't it?
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.759
It it's when your NHS, we we tend to be those talkers, those care in, spend time with people.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:55.279
The reality though is we are moving much more into a a tech and an AI and a robotic world, and it may deter some people from giving their feedback or or or their ideas.
00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:00.799
Um there's never a win-win, but I think in terms of speed that that needs to be adopted now.
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:02.399
Yes, it's interesting, isn't it?
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:09.119
Because of course we all talk about engagement, um, you know, and we we put together stakeholder engagement a lot.
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:16.720
Um and the sense has historically been that that stakeholder engagement comes from having the conversations.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:17.599
Yeah.
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:33.839
So uh Yeah, and in different communities, you know, some people are very more open to conversations and uh particularly in a cancer space, there are those that might not want to be um heard, you know, if if they've sadly, you know, um sort of got cancer and things.
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:39.039
It's understanding those cultures from the beginning is is the key, but it takes time.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.440
Yes, yes, it does, yes.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:57.200
And it and it's absolutely you're right about knowing where people are, and perhaps maybe you can do one thing for the majority, but you know there are a couple that you still gotta pay um attention to and and have that one-to-one time with.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:57.839
Yeah.
00:17:58.079 --> 00:17:59.440
Yeah, I can understand that.
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:00.720
I can understand that.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:17.839
Um, so when you look back, you know, I I as we know through projects, you know, we need to create an environment where people feel safe to explore, feel safe to make mistakes, feel safe to fail.
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:25.200
You know, what do you think are some of the keys to ensuring you can create that safe space for everyone who's involved?
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:31.519
So the the psychological safety, I think, is is probably the openness of the people.
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:49.440
Um in in some conversations, uh perhaps removing with recording, removing the the emails, that you know, the chats, the MS teams, and and just having a face-to-face conversation helps with that psychological safety.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:59.839
I think then in terms of other sort of projects I'm sort of being involved in, it it it's um trust, isn't it?
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.960
It it's trust and really feeling confident that uh people are here to genuinely help.
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:05.519
Yes.
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:12.000
Um and and sometimes I think that that needs to be be removed from the from the technology.
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:23.519
You know, we have lots of platforms and I'm sure lots of organizations will have like well-being platforms and and you know, log on to here and talk to this person and press number three to talk to someone.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:38.160
Well, actually it's great, but I think there is a a slight fear still behind some people that you know I can be recorded, people will know that I've called and and I might get an unexpected text or or a call and and not want that.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:43.920
So it's a real it's a real complex um environment with psychological safety.
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:53.839
So I guess understanding the the people or the person and and see what works best for them, but face-to-face is always the the key thing for me to remove that that barrier.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:20:05.839
And if you were meeting someone tomorrow and they said to you, Oh, I've got my first improvement project to start, what what would be your advice to them?
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:11.359
That's that's that's a good question.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:17.680
So I I would say absolutely sort of understand from the beginning the scope.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:30.079
What is it that you really need, whether it's a short term, a quick fix, or whether there's something here that you need to look at for you know for sustainability and and look at that cost and the benefit associated with it.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:38.000
Don't put a lot of cost or a lot of time in for something so short term if it's not going to have the impact that you're looking for.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.880
And then it it's again just looking at the data.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:53.119
Absolutely understand why the problem exists because it could be a person, it could be the people themselves, and not adopting something that's already available equally.
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:58.319
It could be that technologies move so fast and and that that repository is no longer suitable.
00:20:58.480 --> 00:20:59.119
Yeah.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.599
Interesting, Color.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:07.519
I'm fascinating to hear all about kind of both what's gone well and some of the challenges.
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.279
And really appreciate you sharing all of that with us.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.880
Um so thank you everyone for listening.
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:21.359
If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, share, leave us a review.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:26.240
Um, because the more we grow, the better everyone's work becomes.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:31.440
You can always find more insights at pmi.co.uk and you can follow us on LinkedIn.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.960
But for now, Carla, I'd like to say once again thank you so much.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.119
Really appreciate your time today.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.640
It's been a pleasure, Sears.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:39.839
Thank you for inviting me.
