Development Lore

WEBVTT
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All right, everybody, welcome to Games 105. We're
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not accredited. We're not professionals. But
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we are gamers! I'm Rowan Constantine. I'm Dory
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Parati. I'm Brogan Jensen. And I'm Abi Wallace.
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You have so much energy today. I drank a Red
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Bull before this. I actually finished the entire
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can. Before 5 p .m. We are kind of going to diverge
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a little bit from what we've been talking about
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in previous episodes where we focused on one
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game. And we've each come to the table to talk
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about a game that we've all... Chosen, and we're
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going to talk about game development. Lore doesn't
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just happen inside the game. Lore also can happen
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outside of the game. So we're going to kind of
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dabble and talk about some of the lore and the
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world that happens in creating these games as
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well. So Rowan, do you want to start us off?
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Yeah, so I'm going to be talking about the game,
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two games actually, because they're distinctly
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connected. The developer team is called Digital
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Extremes, and I was researching Warframe and
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Soulframe. I will be talking about Phoenix Wright
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Ace Attorney, because why the hell? Heck not.
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All right. And I'll be talking about the Halo
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2 documentary and all that jazz. All right. And
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I'm talking about Stardew Valley. It's a fun
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spread. Leave it to the men to choose the war
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games. You're assuming Halo is a war game? Am
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I wrong? Yeah. Leave it to the women to choose
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the true crime. Of course I would. Hey, there
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is only, there is no crime in Stardew Valley.
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Just the crime of. That sounds like some, there
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is no war in Ba Sing Se. Of course it's a woman
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saying it. There is no war in Stardew Valley.
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In these walls, we are safe. We are safe. We
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are free. The only war is divorce. In this stardew,
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we are valley. Okay. How do we want to start
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this off? Other than the gender war? Other than
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the gender war that we commit every time we walk
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into this room. Okay, do we want to do a brief
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summary of our games? Oh, yeah. Because I haven't
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played. I know. Phoenix Ace Attorney. I've never
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played it, though. Oh, you're missing out. You
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are missing out. And I know Halo. I've never
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played Halo. Oh. Oh, boy. So do we want to do
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some brief summaries? It's a classic Broganism
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right there. Oh, boy. All right. Yeah, okay,
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let's just go around. I think we were intending
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to do that, and then we didn't, so yeah. This
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whole table needs to matter. So Warframe and
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Soulframe are both kind of Destiny clones. Well,
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Warframe is a Destiny clone. You're a space ninja
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and you do missions as a space ninja. Game's
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gotten a lot bigger since its inception. That's
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part of what I'll be looking into. But that's
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pretty much it. Space ninja doing absolutely
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chaotic and hectic things in space. That's Warframe.
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You said it was a Destiny clone. Could you like...
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Yeah. Destiny kind of started, I think... or
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if it didn't start, it really popularized this
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format of game where it's kind of a multiplayer,
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like massively multiplayer online game, right?
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but instead of everyone being in one big world
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and kind of running around, you have like a shared
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server where you can kind of set things up, but
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then you have individual missions that have a
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distinct cap, which is usually around four. So
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you can have like four people go on a mission
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together, and that's all you get for that one
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mission. Then you come back and you regroup,
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right? And so you get match made up with different
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people. You collect loot. You do all kinds of
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stuff. There is an overarching storyline, but
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that's kind of the format, right? Go. team up
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with some people, do a mission, come back, you
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know, rinse and repeat. That's how the game works.
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So it's pretty quest heavy. Yeah. Ace Attorney
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is great. Follow Phoenix Wright. That is hotshot
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new lawyer who pretty much has a death wish because
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all defense attorneys do in that universe. It
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is, I could go into it more, but it's actually
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more of a social commentary on the Japanese defense
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legal system. Excuse me. And you go through these
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cases. Usually with this teenage girl named Maya,
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when she's not getting herself in trouble, and
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you try to defend your client, who is almost
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always innocent. And I can think of one or two
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exceptions to that. And when those happen, you
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try to actually throw them in jail. It's kind
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of funny in that way. But it's a great game,
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great storytelling, and it's a great social commentary
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on the injustice of the legal system in Japan.
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Also, it's Capcom, and only Capcom could make
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lawyering exciting. Absolutely. Objection! Objection!
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Yeah, okay. I honestly don't think mine needs
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all that much of an explanation because every
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common person who has ever touched video games
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should know what Halo is. Okay, well, I know
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what Halo is. I just said I've never played it.
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That's a worse sin. Which is worse, me never
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playing Halo or me not finishing Elden Ring and
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then talking about my thesis on Elden Ring? You're
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writing your thesis on Elden Ring? Yeah, sorry,
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not to announce that or anything, but I'm writing
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my master's level thesis on Elden Ring. I think
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you need to finish it. And you've never finished
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it? Hey, it's on my to -do list this summer.
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I'm trying to get married first. Okay, that's
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fair. Okay, what is Halo, Brogan? Oh, my. Okay.
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I feel like usually going all in on video games
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is the thing you do before you get married. Yeah.
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I'm a woman, though. I'm a woman, though. They
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can't go all in on anything. I'm actually marrying
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my fiance for his PC. That's wild to admit on
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camera. I love you. All right, Brogan. I don't
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even know how to follow up on that. Okay. Answer
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the question. So, for Halo, you don't need a
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PC. You can use an Xbox. Or a new PlayStation.
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No. Or the new Halo game. We're college kids.
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Do you think we could afford that? Yes. I mean,
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you could probably afford an old Xbox. He's talking
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about a PlayStation. Like the new PlayStation
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for the new Halo game. A PlayStation 5? Yeah.
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Okay. Anyway, so Halo is where you are a super
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soldier who defends Earth, and Halo 2 specifically,
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from an alien invasion. And with this, it's taking
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off the story of Halo 1 and a few books called
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First Strike. That's all you really need to know
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about Halo 2, is you're a super soldier fighting
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aliens. Is this also kind of quest heavy? Halo's
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fairly linear, right? Is it story tracked? So
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think of it like, have you ever played Dark Souls?
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I know of it. Oh my gosh. I'll add a disclaimer
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after this explanation. For Halo, it's just level
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by level driven. It's campaign driven. It's just
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one overarching story for the whole game. So
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basically, you're just completing it chapter
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by chapter. To finish the whole story? Pretty
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much. My disclaimer is my dad had a GameCube
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and a PlayStation 2, but then we got rid of it
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before I turned five. So I have very limited
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memories of playing games. And then I did not
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really play video games until I was about 21.
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Okay, I got you. And Halo wouldn't be on the
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PlayStation in the first place. It was an Xbox
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only until... Last month. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.
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Really? So, yeah, PC got it around, like, 2020
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with the Master Chief collection. Whenever Microsoft
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acquired Xbox. Mm -hmm. Because, of course. Was
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that 2020? No, I'm just saying, like, for PC
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specifically. Okay. Like, for the Master Chief
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collection or, like, mods of, like, Halo 1, 2,
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and 3 and Reach. It was just purely a console
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social environment game. That makes me feel a
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little bit better because I this is going to
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sound super ignorant. I did not realize how big
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PC gaming was until I was like an adult. Right.
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Because I think I just grew up in the time and
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era where things are made for consoles and I'm
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now like learning and realizing like I have so
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many friends who do PC gaming but like that's
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kind of like a newer venture but like 2015. Yeah.
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Newer. Yes. It's just sad to see the way of like
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social group Playing one game, sitting down on
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the same couch is just dying. Yes, co -op, in
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-person co -op games. But yeah, Microsoft has
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always been a partner for Halo and Xbox, and
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it's been their little golden goose for a long
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time. Holy crap, Microsoft, stop buying things.
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They've got things to do, which actually leads
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me into my game. Yes. Stardew Valley. Abby has
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things to do. I've got things to do in Stardew
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Valley. Okay, Stardew Valley. is a farming sim
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RPG where you start the game and your grandpa
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has died and gifted you his entire farm in Stardew
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Valley. And when you get over, and this is all
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in the opening cutscene, when you're tired of
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your corporate slop life, you go and you acquire
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the farm and then you just try and maintain the
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farm. So you can grow crops, you can create artisan
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goods from your crops, you can have animals.
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So you take care of your animals, but you can
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also fish and use fishing as a way of making
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means. You can go mining in the mine shafts nearby.
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You can also date the people of the town. It's
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also a dating sim. So it's kind of more like
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a slice of life experience, except there's this
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whole community that just tries to like, there's
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a modding community. So like people love to like
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mod the PC version of the game specifically,
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but also. They try and break the game, and many
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people have because the amount, your total savings
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amount, calculate like bar, has a cap on how
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many digits it can have. And some people have
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collected and created so much wealth in this
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game that it no longer loads. Dang. And that
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is the whole premise of the game is just to make
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ungodly amounts of wealth, like real life. Sign
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me up. And then transfer it to my blank account
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because I don't want to think about tuition right
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now. But the reason I chose it for gaming development
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is it was created entirely by one man. Music,
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programming, animation, everything, one guy.
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That's impressive. And it has over 41 million
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total units sold. Dang. So it is in the top 20
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most sold games. That's impressive. Good for
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him. Anyways, that's the game I chose. How does
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a one -man show look from your end? From my end
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as the player? Just based on what you were looking
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into, what was, I guess, most captivating about
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that? I think, for me, what was most captivating
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was that, one, he spent so many years developing
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the game, right? He spent, I think, six years
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kind of just by himself working 12 -hour days.
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just in his basement apartment taking his girlfriend
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to college and back and that's all he did was
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just sink so much time into something that he
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loved right and so i think that's kind of like
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a labor of love and that's one of the reasons
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i love games like that is like you can tell there's
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so much artistry and like thought put into it
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where you can get that with triple a games but
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you can't always get that with triple a games
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it's kind of a give and take so And there's just,
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like, just from the development side, my brain
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is just reeling from the amount of work he would
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have had to do. Yeah. So it's kind of crazy.
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I think he brought in a couple of people towards,
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like, in, like, some of the updates, and he brought
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in, like, playtesters to kind of, like, help
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fix things. But he uses a lot of feedback currently
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from players to update and fix bugs in the game.
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So there are new updates coming out every so
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often. The most recent one was December 2024.
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Okay. So he patches the game quite regularly,
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which I think is also really interesting. So
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it's not like an abandoned project that it's
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like been put out and he's done with it. It's
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something that he's still like. He still loves
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it. He still loves it. It's still his baby. It's
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true. That's kind of like the hard thing with
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anything you program is. I think that's just
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true with anything you create, but I'm just going
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to speak from the experience. from the perspective
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of a programmer here but um you you quite literally
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cry over these projects because you can't get
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the stupid thing to work yeah and but when it
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does it feels so good and then just it really
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just you do become kind of attached to it especially
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if you spent that much time on it and it's completely
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yours it's not like this corporation or your
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boss telling you hey you need to make this figure
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it out i don't care or you have to run with someone
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else's idea that they thought was really cool,
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which is often kind of what they do in the Zelda
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games, for example. They'll have, like, this
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mechanic, like, oh, that's cool, and they'll
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try to incorporate it, and then they'll build
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the story around that. So for Stardew Valley,
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it's just really, it would be really special
00:13:21.190 --> 00:13:25.169
to just create something, A, wildly successful,
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but B, on your own, it works really well. Do
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we think there are any, like... I don't want
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to say cons, because obviously there's a con
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to being a one -man show, right? You're exhausted.
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You have to do all the work, right? But in terms
00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:41.100
of the thing that you create, right, is creating
00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:44.120
something entirely. And I guess that's the thing,
00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:48.000
right, is that obviously everyone gets feedback,
00:13:48.259 --> 00:13:50.980
right? And so in that sense, he's not really
00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:53.299
making it entirely in a bubble. What's the creator's
00:13:53.299 --> 00:13:55.379
name, by the way? Do we have that? Concerned
00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:58.200
Ape is the tag that he puts himself under. But
00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:00.649
he does have a real name. His name's Eric. Okay.
00:14:00.850 --> 00:14:03.210
Dope name. But we can call him Concerned Ape
00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:05.250
because that's what most of his stuff is. Awesome.
00:14:05.470 --> 00:14:09.269
I always wonder what the dangers and pitfalls
00:14:09.269 --> 00:14:12.850
are of trying to go it all on your own, besides
00:14:12.850 --> 00:14:17.029
it being exquisitely hard, right? Yeah, burnout
00:14:17.029 --> 00:14:19.389
would be insane. Obviously, the burnout is a
00:14:19.389 --> 00:14:23.610
problem. But outside of that, is it uniquely
00:14:23.610 --> 00:14:27.299
and objectively good? To have this thing and
00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:29.620
say, no, I have created this all on my own. This
00:14:29.620 --> 00:14:33.820
is my art piece. This is my thing. It is my entire
00:14:33.820 --> 00:14:40.379
soul made bare. Or is it better to include other
00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:43.440
people and have maybe your art impinged on to
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:47.600
some extent, but also the community aspect, the
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:54.000
idea of having other people to engage with? I
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.240
don't know. I've never played Stardew Valley,
00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:59.360
so I'm curious if there are ways in which it
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:04.039
would have benefited from a little bit more developer
00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:08.519
input in that sense. I think he is one of the
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.919
rare creators, I'd say, who is open to feedback,
00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:15.240
and I think that's huge with Stardew Valley because
00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.500
we all know those creators that are kind of just
00:15:17.500 --> 00:15:20.399
like little mama bears. You touch their child,
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.929
you die. With him, it doesn't seem to be the
00:15:23.929 --> 00:15:26.009
case at all. So a lot of my information and my
00:15:26.009 --> 00:15:28.110
digging came from an interview with ConcernedApe
00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:30.009
that he did a couple of years ago. And he built
00:15:30.009 --> 00:15:34.029
the game about 80 % and then published it. And
00:15:34.029 --> 00:15:36.970
then the last 20 % was him just fixing and getting
00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:38.690
feedback and fixing and getting feedback and
00:15:38.690 --> 00:15:40.789
fixing and getting feedback. I think one of the
00:15:40.789 --> 00:15:44.070
benefits of doing this solitarily is that you
00:15:44.070 --> 00:15:47.049
don't have that oversight pressure. You don't
00:15:47.049 --> 00:15:50.450
have that Christmas crunch. You don't have this
00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:54.820
like... overwhelming feeling of I have this deadline.
00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:57.220
It goes at your own pace. That if you have to
00:15:57.220 --> 00:16:00.039
abandon it for a day or two days or a week or
00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:02.379
a month, you can because there's no one that's
00:16:02.379 --> 00:16:04.799
pressuring you into doing it. This is a labor
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:09.080
of love that you hope pays off. But he also has
00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:13.919
want to build certain skills. He made the music,
00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:16.580
which is performed in concert halls all over
00:16:16.580 --> 00:16:19.080
the world now because people love the music so
00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.419
much. He had a background in programming, so
00:16:22.419 --> 00:16:24.720
he wanted to work on his programming skills.
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:27.019
He wanted to work on his artistry skills. So
00:16:27.019 --> 00:16:29.679
this was also him trying to build his portfolio
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.299
to kind of break into the video game industry.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.360
And he kind of did that. And he kind of did that,
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.480
but then he didn't really need a publishing house
00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:41.279
as the equivalent. He didn't need this big developer
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:44.179
to kind of put the AAA stamp on it and send it
00:16:44.179 --> 00:16:49.110
on its way. And I think it's... Also, you don't
00:16:49.110 --> 00:16:51.309
have to worry about being plagiarized or plagiarism
00:16:51.309 --> 00:16:54.690
of some other person like Bungie is doing with
00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:58.929
Marathon at the current moment. So yeah, I think
00:16:58.929 --> 00:17:01.629
that's also a benefit of doing a single man show
00:17:01.629 --> 00:17:05.849
for content creation or video game development.
00:17:07.650 --> 00:17:10.750
But also has its drawbacks because sometimes
00:17:10.750 --> 00:17:16.009
an idea you shouldn't follow through with. Have
00:17:16.009 --> 00:17:19.559
you heard of the American... Have you heard of
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:21.660
the American employee stereotype that they have
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:26.039
in Japan, allegedly? No. Okay. You should tell
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.779
them about it. So basically in Japan, you don't
00:17:29.779 --> 00:17:32.839
push back against your boss. Yeah. Ever. You
00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:36.059
don't do that. And so companies have started
00:17:36.059 --> 00:17:40.200
to make it a habit to employ one American because
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:44.420
the American will not care what the boss says.
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.960
If it's stupid, he will tell them. Because he
00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:50.619
has no care whatsoever about any of the cultural
00:17:50.619 --> 00:17:52.660
norms. He's like, no, that's stupid. Right. And
00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:55.680
he'll push back on the boss and it will get them
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:58.980
better products and results overall. And working
00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:00.900
on your own, it could be like, you don't have
00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:03.519
that American employee telling you, what are
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.200
you doing? Right. Yeah. I do think it's interesting
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.000
thinking about the process of skill developing,
00:18:11.180 --> 00:18:15.440
right? Because it reminds me of... I was reading
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.380
about Hollow Knight at one point, and the developers
00:18:18.380 --> 00:18:20.660
of Hollow Knight is a three -person team. And
00:18:20.660 --> 00:18:24.119
the project started as a game jam, which is where
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:25.859
you sit down and you make a game. You make an
00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:27.940
entire game in a certain amount of time, and
00:18:27.940 --> 00:18:29.680
that's it. That's what you do. And that's what
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.579
Hollow Knight started out as. It was a game jam.
00:18:31.660 --> 00:18:33.740
It was a way to just develop their skills, to
00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:38.559
build their capacity. And then when they realized,
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:40.819
oh, we have a pretty good idea going here. We
00:18:40.819 --> 00:18:43.299
could actually make something out of this. That's
00:18:43.299 --> 00:18:48.369
how... Hollow Knight was born, one of the most
00:18:48.369 --> 00:18:50.089
insanely popular games of the past few years.
00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:52.450
It's an interesting balance, right? Because that's
00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:54.470
the thing is that I think part of it is that
00:18:54.470 --> 00:18:57.049
if you are working on your own or with a very
00:18:57.049 --> 00:18:59.970
small group, you can happen on something really,
00:19:00.069 --> 00:19:03.789
really good. But I think it's also important
00:19:03.789 --> 00:19:07.309
to recognize how much luck plays into that, right?
00:19:07.309 --> 00:19:10.049
How much just like... essentially stumbling onto
00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:14.150
a really good idea and being in the right place
00:19:14.150 --> 00:19:16.930
at the right time to market it and develop it
00:19:16.930 --> 00:19:20.170
and put it out there, right? There are plenty
00:19:20.170 --> 00:19:22.670
of people out there who I'm sure are doing all
00:19:22.670 --> 00:19:24.890
the same things or developing their skills or
00:19:24.890 --> 00:19:27.410
putting all this work and time and effort into
00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:30.950
making a game. And maybe it's as good, but it's
00:19:30.950 --> 00:19:33.250
not getting out there as easily, right? They're
00:19:33.250 --> 00:19:35.049
just struggling to get the word out. Maybe it's
00:19:35.049 --> 00:19:38.960
not as good because that can happen. You can
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.640
make sucky games. I'm sorry. You absolutely can.
00:19:42.740 --> 00:19:44.259
I do think that that's part of the risk that
00:19:44.259 --> 00:19:46.220
you run, right? And it's not a bad thing to want
00:19:46.220 --> 00:19:48.380
to develop your skills. Right. And I think it's
00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:50.019
really important to say, like, no, I'm doing
00:19:50.019 --> 00:19:51.720
this for me, right? If it doesn't get out there,
00:19:51.740 --> 00:19:53.140
that's fine. I'm doing it for me. I'm going to
00:19:53.140 --> 00:19:55.619
get better. I'm going to improve. You have that
00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:58.920
portfolio. But hey, you know, if it takes off,
00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.480
great. Right, yeah. No one's complaining about
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.339
that, except Toby Fox. He wasn't too happy about
00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:08.240
that in the beginning. I feel like most people
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.359
don't mind getting lucky. Right. But it's important
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.380
to recognize that you are getting lucky. And
00:20:14.380 --> 00:20:17.640
he hasn't like stopped at. stardew valley like
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.440
he is in the like process of creating a new game
00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.579
and like he used all of the elements of other
00:20:22.579 --> 00:20:25.180
games he was fully inspired by like he acknowledges
00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:27.400
like harvest moon which is a japanese game he
00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:29.200
like acknowledges the things that influenced
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:31.660
him and found the problems that he was having
00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:34.059
with the gaming industry and like types of games
00:20:34.059 --> 00:20:35.920
that were putting being put out at the time that
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.599
he was like i would like to do something different
00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:40.200
and i would like to take the things that like
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.660
i really like about these games and apply them
00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:46.039
so like farming simulators slice of life you
00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.140
know like you're just churning out tasks you
00:20:49.140 --> 00:20:50.779
have a set number of days like one of the other
00:20:50.779 --> 00:20:53.680
things is like sometimes like levels or campaigns
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.519
or quests can be too long a day in stardew valley
00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.839
is 14 real minutes yeah so you can hop on the
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:01.980
game play for 14 minutes the day ends you could
00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:04.579
be done or you could do another day and you play
00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:07.240
two days, you're half an hour in. Some things
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.279
that he's just like, I don't want to sink too
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.940
much time in this, but if I can, or I can only
00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:15.539
sink 15 minutes and I'm super productive. Because
00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.539
the only way you can save the game is by finishing
00:21:17.539 --> 00:21:20.599
a day. So that's the only time that you can save.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.240
So you can't save midday and hop back in midday.
00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:25.720
You have to be done with the day and start a
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:27.480
new one. That was something that he was really
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.759
struggling with. I don't want to sink two hours
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.079
into a campaign. That's too much time. I don't
00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:35.319
have that kind of time. But like 14 minutes,
00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.920
anyone could do that. And I think that was some
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.160
of the appeal to it was like he found the drawbacks
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.220
that he was having and then applied them. I think
00:21:45.220 --> 00:21:47.539
games are such a fascinating way to explore ethics
00:21:47.539 --> 00:21:51.519
as well, like especially developer ethics. That's
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.599
one of the reasons I love Warframe so much as
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.819
a game is how intensely ethical the developer
00:21:57.819 --> 00:22:01.940
is. It's a free -to -play game. which means that
00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:04.799
all the money they earn is earned through microtransactions,
00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:08.359
which immediately sets off alarm bells. For everyone.
00:22:08.660 --> 00:22:13.319
Yeah. The thing is, one, Warframe is truly free
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.740
to play. You don't have to pay for anything.
00:22:17.819 --> 00:22:24.640
It's a huge time sink. But the thing is, what
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.339
was fascinating to me when I was starting to
00:22:28.339 --> 00:22:33.599
get into it, You can have a dog. Yes. And the
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.119
dog's appearance is randomized. No. And you can
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.880
pay money to, at one point, at least it's different
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.740
now, but at its inception, you could pay money
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:47.460
to basically pull a lever and change the dog's
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:49.559
appearance. And it would be randomized each time,
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:51.759
but you could pay money and pull the lever again.
00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:55.980
And they turned it off because people were spending
00:22:55.980 --> 00:23:00.839
hundreds of dollars on this lever. And they were
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:05.819
like, no, that's too much. Stop it. Stop giving
00:23:05.819 --> 00:23:09.059
us money. Stop gambling. That's ethical. But
00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:11.000
that's the thing, right? Is that they had this
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.380
enormous cash cow that they could have just been
00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:15.220
like, all right, yeah. We'll make money off of
00:23:15.220 --> 00:23:17.380
it. You can waste all of your money on this cosmetic
00:23:17.380 --> 00:23:20.819
that doesn't matter at all. But they didn't,
00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:23.180
right? They decided not to. And I think that
00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:25.220
is part of why they've been so successful is
00:23:25.220 --> 00:23:28.910
that they've had this commitment to. Doing the
00:23:28.910 --> 00:23:31.029
same thing, right? To seeing the problems in
00:23:31.029 --> 00:23:32.529
the sphere that they're working in and saying,
00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:34.390
no, we're not going to do that, right? We're
00:23:34.390 --> 00:23:37.069
going to be different. Do they apply the same
00:23:37.069 --> 00:23:40.589
sort of ethics to their developers as well or
00:23:40.589 --> 00:23:42.450
is it just to the consumers? You know what I'm
00:23:42.450 --> 00:23:45.910
saying by that? That I'm not super familiar with.
00:23:46.009 --> 00:23:51.109
I was not able to get really deep into how the
00:23:51.109 --> 00:23:54.710
workspace is treated, which. So I couldn't tell
00:23:54.710 --> 00:23:56.349
you. That's okay. I was just curious if you knew
00:23:56.349 --> 00:23:58.289
that as well, because that is a huge problem
00:23:58.289 --> 00:24:01.230
with the video game industry. It's a huge problem
00:24:01.230 --> 00:24:04.650
with the creative industry as a whole. If you're
00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:06.970
getting paid to make art, like there's... It's
00:24:06.970 --> 00:24:10.390
because you love it. Yeah. Because you're not
00:24:10.390 --> 00:24:14.210
staying for the money or the hours. Yeah. You
00:24:14.210 --> 00:24:17.140
said this Hollow Knight was a three. Yeah. You
00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:19.500
don't know how many people worked on this game?
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.480
Digital Extremes is a fairly large company. They're
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:24.960
a large company. I might be able to find the
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.640
number, but I couldn't tell you exactly. But
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:30.539
they're larger. They're not, you know, I don't
00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:33.059
think that they're like triple A level. It's
00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:35.920
the kind of thing where most of their developer
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:39.279
heads are also doing work as voice actors. And,
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.359
you know, everyone has like three or four jobs
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:43.359
and responsibilities in the game, right? Yeah.
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:47.380
So they're an indie team, but they're one of
00:24:47.380 --> 00:24:52.259
the larger ones. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Rogan,
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:55.559
you chose a AAA title, right? Yeah. Yeah. How
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.920
is the other side? Because I chose indie, middle
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.960
ground, AAA. What are some of the other sides
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:06.720
of game development? Well, this was where video
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.240
games were just getting really popular really
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:15.809
quickly. After the success of Halo 1 in 2000,
00:25:16.390 --> 00:25:21.190
2001, they're like, okay, let's make another
00:25:21.190 --> 00:25:23.369
game that we absolutely want to continue the
00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:26.130
story from. So they started creating Halo 2.
00:25:26.329 --> 00:25:31.789
It was going to be released in 2004. And with
00:25:31.789 --> 00:25:35.769
this, a lot of success was happening at the very
00:25:35.769 --> 00:25:37.509
start. A lot of people are happy. Everyone was
00:25:37.509 --> 00:25:40.190
excited for this game. Creating it was super
00:25:40.190 --> 00:25:43.900
impactful to them. then as they were developing
00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:47.359
it, trying to get ready for E3 for, I think,
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:50.279
like 2003. But they were like, okay, let's get
00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:52.579
this development for this, let's get this demo
00:25:52.579 --> 00:25:56.180
for E3 ready. So it was a lot of crunch time
00:25:56.180 --> 00:25:58.079
for that part, saying, okay, let's get something
00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:02.720
workable here. And they did, and it was a massive
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:06.119
success. Everyone was getting really excited
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.660
for Halo 2. It was one of the biggest excitements
00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:13.289
for a video game that's been recorded. even to
00:26:13.289 --> 00:26:16.190
this day. Or you can look at Halo 3. It's one
00:26:16.190 --> 00:26:18.069
of the biggest overnight waiting. It still has
00:26:18.069 --> 00:26:23.509
a really big draw. Right. Yeah. And with this,
00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:26.029
E3 was great. They're like, okay, let's continue
00:26:26.029 --> 00:26:27.750
working on the game so we can release it with
00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:33.890
Xbox Live, first iteration of it, and live multiplayer
00:26:33.890 --> 00:26:37.450
with multiple people across the world. So they're
00:26:37.450 --> 00:26:39.210
like, okay, let's get this ready. And when they
00:26:39.210 --> 00:26:42.710
were putting this in, everything started to collapse
00:26:42.710 --> 00:26:45.829
on itself. They had to cut out multiple levels,
00:26:46.029 --> 00:26:48.089
multiple information, a lot of data from the
00:26:48.089 --> 00:26:51.769
game itself to get something workable. And that
00:26:51.769 --> 00:26:53.970
means a lot of story threads were cut, a lot
00:26:53.970 --> 00:26:56.329
of people were getting stressed about this game.
00:26:57.869 --> 00:27:01.150
All the cut content and everything around voice
00:27:01.150 --> 00:27:05.630
acting, music, level design, people were getting
00:27:05.630 --> 00:27:09.000
frustrated with the game. And it was going to
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.019
be like, okay, it's going to be a massive success
00:27:11.019 --> 00:27:16.559
or a massive flop. And over time, they're like,
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.259
okay, let's get something workable. So crunch
00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:21.099
time was happening. Everyone's just like, okay,
00:27:21.140 --> 00:27:25.160
we're done. We hate this game now. Dang, cancel
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:28.240
culture is harsh. But over time, they're like,
00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:30.839
let's take a step back. Let's go back at it in
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.420
like a few days and get this done. Let's have
00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:36.380
a positive attitude about it. And over time,
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:40.119
it became one of the greatest games that they've
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:44.559
produced. A lot of different cultural significance
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:47.140
to it is people staying overnight in front of
00:27:47.140 --> 00:27:51.400
game stores to buy Halo 2. A lot of people created
00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.339
machinimas about Halo. The most popular one is
00:27:55.339 --> 00:27:59.039
a machinima called Red vs. Blue. That's such
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.019
a great series. Wait, what is a machinima? I
00:28:03.019 --> 00:28:05.640
don't think I know that term. you want to explain
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:10.759
okay um so this was essentially my only exposure
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:14.259
to the halo games was red versus blue but it's
00:28:14.259 --> 00:28:18.019
essentially you take the models and sometimes
00:28:18.019 --> 00:28:20.839
like you're just doing it in the game but you
00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:24.059
take the models and the like backdrops from a
00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:28.150
game and you just record uh some sort of drama
00:28:28.150 --> 00:28:30.529
or play or whatever, right? So Red versus Blue
00:28:30.529 --> 00:28:32.990
was a series of comedic sketches where you had
00:28:32.990 --> 00:28:35.849
a red Halo guy and a blue Halo guy, and I can
00:28:35.849 --> 00:28:38.250
feel Brogan just get pissed off as I call them
00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:42.789
Halo guys. Actually, I'm not. That's just TF2,
00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:48.119
man. And so there's a variety of characters that
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.420
are all different Halo models that are just running
00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:53.539
around this map and talking to each other and
00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:56.000
doing funny skits. Okay, so it's like a full
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.740
production in -game. It just sounds like Team
00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:03.599
Fortress 2, but Halo version. This is where I
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.740
think I want to say that this is kind of the
00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:12.200
origin of... What is the kind of playground sandbox
00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:15.259
that... Steam made. Dang it. I don't remember
00:29:15.259 --> 00:29:17.559
what it's called. We'll get a crack research
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.240
stuff on it. The engine that TF2 is built on,
00:29:20.299 --> 00:29:22.180
right? They have a whole modding system that
00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:23.619
you can use. And a lot of people have used that
00:29:23.619 --> 00:29:25.619
to do very much the same thing. And this is kind
00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:28.480
of the start of that in a lot of ways. That's
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:33.640
what it is. Gary's mod. Yeah. Gary's mod. I have
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.819
heard that one. A lot of Gary's Mod Productions,
00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:39.880
that idea of modding not only to play around
00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:42.720
with the code in a game, but to put a creative
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:48.880
or not necessarily story -driven, but this creative
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.299
film -esque production that you're using a game
00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:57.819
engine to produce on your own as opposed to making
00:29:57.819 --> 00:30:00.579
an entire movie in Final Fantasy or something.
00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:05.130
this is at home stuff. Yeah. Because those Halo
00:30:05.130 --> 00:30:08.509
movies are so good. I think there's only like
00:30:08.509 --> 00:30:11.890
one that one was okay. I think, yeah, I think
00:30:11.890 --> 00:30:14.170
they all just went to streaming. Yeah. Very recently.
00:30:14.269 --> 00:30:18.349
Okay. But also. Okay, yeah, back. Back to like
00:30:18.349 --> 00:30:21.329
the cultural significance of Halo 2. They go
00:30:21.329 --> 00:30:30.730
to streaming. No. No. No. Try again. Was they
00:30:30.730 --> 00:30:34.400
got. Breaking Benjamin, the band, to get one
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.420
of the greatest songs ever to Grace Halo. And
00:30:37.420 --> 00:30:40.940
it's called Blow Me Away. It's a great song.
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:43.460
I'm going to have to listen to this one after
00:30:43.460 --> 00:30:46.299
we're done recording. I would recommend everyone,
00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:49.759
everyone needs to listen to it. After this. We're
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:52.779
more important. You should queue this up next
00:30:52.779 --> 00:30:56.599
on your Spotify. Unless you've got another one
00:30:56.599 --> 00:30:59.660
of our episodes, in which case, we're more important.
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:05.819
But yeah, overall, AAA games at the time in early
00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:09.000
2000s loved their games enough to say, okay,
00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:11.140
consumer, we're here for you. We want the best
00:31:11.140 --> 00:31:15.440
for you, even despite us being in crunch time
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.740
or pressure from our overseers or bosses. We're
00:31:19.740 --> 00:31:21.700
going to do what's right for the game. I do feel
00:31:21.700 --> 00:31:23.420
like we've kind of lost a little bit of that.
00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:27.519
the early 2000s was still, like, new enough in,
00:31:27.579 --> 00:31:30.339
like, video game history that, like, these AAA
00:31:30.339 --> 00:31:33.359
titles were established and that's why they became
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.000
AAA title, like, companies and games is, like,
00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:40.859
they put out really high quality stuff. Like,
00:31:40.940 --> 00:31:42.759
even if they were in a crunch, they had enough,
00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:45.519
like, teamwork dynamic. Now, it might be a little
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.039
toxic and it's become more and more toxic, but,
00:31:48.099 --> 00:31:51.759
like, at the time, it was, like, so new and so,
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.079
like, revolutionary that, like, If Halo 2 came
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:56.940
out, it was like a complete flop because nothing
00:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.240
worked on this platform. We can still go back
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.420
and we can patch it and people will still be
00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:04.539
like, I still want good quality game because
00:32:04.539 --> 00:32:07.339
there's not enough good quality game and they
00:32:07.339 --> 00:32:10.940
do have good quality work. That's what's so exciting
00:32:10.940 --> 00:32:15.500
about people with PCs. They've gone into the
00:32:15.500 --> 00:32:19.259
lost media or lost content of games. Let's say
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:22.140
for Halo 2, they've pulled all these files back
00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:24.930
out saying, This is a great mission. Let's mob
00:32:24.930 --> 00:32:27.769
this. We're not condoning pirating. No. No, no,
00:32:27.789 --> 00:32:30.789
no, no, no. Stay back, Nintendo. And Halo has
00:32:30.789 --> 00:32:33.190
welcomed it. It's like, okay, you brought this
00:32:33.190 --> 00:32:36.410
forward to use our demo version. Great. More
00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:41.670
power to you. Nice. Yeah. We just lost those
00:32:41.670 --> 00:32:46.029
times. I think the last time we really had, in
00:32:46.029 --> 00:32:49.210
my memory, and I don't know a lot, so take it
00:32:49.210 --> 00:32:51.630
with a grain of salt, that... we really had a
00:32:51.630 --> 00:32:54.509
studio just go to their developers and be like,
00:32:54.549 --> 00:33:00.089
you know what? There's no release date. Go crazy
00:33:00.089 --> 00:33:01.970
with your creativity. Do whatever you want with
00:33:01.970 --> 00:33:04.630
Mario Wonder. And there's a reason why that game
00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:08.609
ended up being an acid trip. A phenomenal acid
00:33:08.609 --> 00:33:13.329
trip, but an acid trip. Okay, this is kind of
00:33:13.329 --> 00:33:16.089
like a throwout question. There's really no answer.
00:33:16.190 --> 00:33:19.750
What do you think is kind of killing AAA titles?
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:22.380
right because we're kind of losing they still
00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:26.599
have like this big like studio name right but
00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:30.700
people aren't as like trusting of them anymore
00:33:30.700 --> 00:33:35.720
and i'm like is this covid is this some of like
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:41.099
the like activision blizzard controversy that
00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:43.200
came out a couple years ago is this just like
00:33:43.819 --> 00:33:46.460
we're no longer blind to how these things, like,
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:48.220
the means of production are no longer behind
00:33:48.220 --> 00:33:49.819
the curtain. It's been pulled. Like, what do
00:33:49.819 --> 00:33:53.000
you, like, I feel like there are certain titles
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:57.400
that come out of these AAA studios that people
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.759
just aren't as attracted to unless you, like,
00:34:00.779 --> 00:34:05.059
you know, played Halo growing up. Or, like, I
00:34:05.059 --> 00:34:06.660
don't know. Is there, like, a reason? Is it we
00:34:06.660 --> 00:34:08.460
have too many, like, sequels? We're on Halo.
00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:12.090
How many Halos do we have? Too many. Like, we
00:34:12.090 --> 00:34:14.269
have too many Halos. You know, like, is it, like,
00:34:14.309 --> 00:34:16.809
what do you personally, what are you guys thinking
00:34:16.809 --> 00:34:19.590
about what's kind of crushing the AAA studios
00:34:19.590 --> 00:34:27.309
right now? Okay, so two things. Okay. One, the
00:34:27.309 --> 00:34:30.389
thing that's crushing everything else, which
00:34:30.389 --> 00:34:33.480
is investors. This episode got political, guys.
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:37.019
I'm sorry. Okay, you can't create art without
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.000
it being political. All art is political. There
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:40.800
we go. Everything is political. Everything is
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:42.119
political, but this is a very different... The
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:48.119
word and is political. So first off, right? Investors.
00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:51.239
The reason that independent games are good is
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:54.460
because people are free to create things that
00:34:54.460 --> 00:34:57.920
they want to create. When you create things...
00:34:58.250 --> 00:35:00.250
and in general right that this this shows out
00:35:00.250 --> 00:35:04.130
across the board right every single company when
00:35:04.130 --> 00:35:06.530
it goes public right whenever a product goes
00:35:06.530 --> 00:35:10.070
public now they're beholden to investors rather
00:35:10.070 --> 00:35:13.670
than to the consumer and so they are making right
00:35:13.670 --> 00:35:15.769
the investor is primarily concerned with what
00:35:15.769 --> 00:35:19.469
makes the most money right now right so they
00:35:19.469 --> 00:35:22.289
can drive the value of their stock up and i'm
00:35:22.289 --> 00:35:25.190
not an economist so We're probably going to get
00:35:25.190 --> 00:35:27.510
some flack for everything that I'm saying. But
00:35:27.510 --> 00:35:33.309
it's not my fault this time. So invariably, pretty
00:35:33.309 --> 00:35:36.869
much, what I have noticed happen is that, yeah,
00:35:36.929 --> 00:35:40.389
company goes public, investors buy into it. They
00:35:40.389 --> 00:35:43.690
don't care about producing quality product, right?
00:35:43.750 --> 00:35:45.469
They care about making as much money as they
00:35:45.469 --> 00:35:48.510
can right now. And so they release a product
00:35:48.510 --> 00:35:50.250
that is not quality. They do everything they
00:35:50.250 --> 00:35:54.699
can to reduce. the amount of labor and time,
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:57.940
reduce the upfront cost of a product so that
00:35:57.940 --> 00:36:00.460
they can release a product for cheaper. What
00:36:00.460 --> 00:36:03.739
that means is you get Assassin's Creed Valhalla,
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.980
right? Where the Fenris Wolf just kind of glitches
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:10.139
around the arena for five minutes for no reason.
00:36:10.219 --> 00:36:15.619
We didn't say that. You get just the overwhelming...
00:36:16.619 --> 00:36:19.639
presence of early access games right this idea
00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:21.699
of like oh like i can release a game early when
00:36:21.699 --> 00:36:23.380
it's not finished and make a bunch of money off
00:36:23.380 --> 00:36:25.260
it before i even finish it awesome let's do it
00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:28.380
hey you should pre -order this yeah so we can
00:36:28.380 --> 00:36:32.079
have your money now pre -orders um all of that
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:35.380
comes from the bottom line right from this idea
00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:37.940
that i have to make as much money as i can right
00:36:37.940 --> 00:36:40.840
now as opposed to investing into something more
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:43.019
long term that's going to be more productive
00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:45.679
i'm going to push back a little bit on that because
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.340
while i think it is money is like a huge root
00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:49.840
of it i don't know if it's the investors but
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.320
i think it might be more like the corporation
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:54.860
itself if that makes any sense because what i've
00:36:54.860 --> 00:36:57.739
noticed like oh well these titles are successful
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.199
why waste any and you see this in hollywood too
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:03.559
and like these other like massive industries
00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:06.179
like why would we try creating something new
00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:10.119
when we could just not and it's driving like
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:12.920
these weird sequels it's doing a whole bunch
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:15.539
of these things where it's like not i wouldn't
00:37:15.539 --> 00:37:18.440
necessarily blame the investors themselves because
00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:21.420
they're gonna get money either way but just to
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:23.420
tie it into well no that's the thing is that
00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:28.889
like the the the switch to me at least, is the
00:37:28.889 --> 00:37:30.829
switch from like I'm going to create, like the
00:37:30.829 --> 00:37:32.809
switch that you get is the switch from I'm going
00:37:32.809 --> 00:37:34.710
to create a quality product and have a satisfied
00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:37.849
customer to I am going to sell a product and
00:37:37.849 --> 00:37:39.829
I don't care what the customer thinks after they've
00:37:39.829 --> 00:37:42.670
bought it. That's what happens when a company
00:37:42.670 --> 00:37:44.750
goes public and becomes beholden to investors.
00:37:45.030 --> 00:37:48.210
Okay, so you're saying. Right. Because the investor
00:37:48.210 --> 00:37:50.949
cares how much money they spend on it right now.
00:37:51.090 --> 00:37:54.650
Okay. I think we're, like, similar tracks. It's
00:37:54.650 --> 00:37:58.449
just, like, ways of thinking. Yeah. That's the
00:37:58.449 --> 00:38:00.250
thing, right? That's mostly what I'm talking
00:38:00.250 --> 00:38:05.869
about. Yeah. So, yeah. We're on the same track.
00:38:05.989 --> 00:38:07.230
We're on the same track. We just have different
00:38:07.230 --> 00:38:09.030
ways of thinking about it. But, like, just to
00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:11.269
tie it into, like, the film industry for just
00:38:11.269 --> 00:38:13.929
a second, K -pop Demon Hunters was probably the
00:38:13.929 --> 00:38:16.090
weirdest thing I came back to for my mission.
00:38:17.349 --> 00:38:20.210
Oh, girl. Oh, my gosh. You came back to K -pop
00:38:20.210 --> 00:38:22.510
Demons. I came back to K -pop Demons. That's
00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:27.269
how recent you are. Okay. Oh, no. But it was
00:38:27.269 --> 00:38:30.429
weird as crap, but it was new, and that's why
00:38:30.429 --> 00:38:32.449
it was successful, because we're tired of the
00:38:32.449 --> 00:38:35.210
sequels, just as a society. We're not stupid.
00:38:36.650 --> 00:38:40.530
Completely. Well, I also think it also is like,
00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:44.730
Sony and Sony Animation took a risk, and they
00:38:44.730 --> 00:38:47.949
were... afraid of the fallout right yeah they
00:38:47.949 --> 00:38:50.349
were like we have you know the spider -man movies
00:38:50.349 --> 00:38:53.090
were like they're more recent creations and that
00:38:53.090 --> 00:38:56.070
was so successful that they were like we don't
00:38:56.070 --> 00:38:58.269
think we'll ever live up to that and then they
00:38:58.269 --> 00:39:01.969
sold it for a blanket price and they messed up
00:39:01.969 --> 00:39:04.550
and they've made very little money off of it
00:39:04.550 --> 00:39:06.869
since yeah netflix has made all of the profit
00:39:06.869 --> 00:39:09.389
yeah right this is a very different topic that
00:39:09.389 --> 00:39:11.730
we jumped into right but like i'm just going
00:39:11.730 --> 00:39:15.090
with the idea of but you want like We want creativity.
00:39:15.750 --> 00:39:20.449
And just to tie it back to my game. Yes. Tie
00:39:20.449 --> 00:39:22.769
it back. With social issues and we're talking
00:39:22.769 --> 00:39:25.210
about political commentary. Let's talk about
00:39:25.210 --> 00:39:27.289
politics in a country that I don't think any
00:39:27.289 --> 00:39:30.289
of us here have visited. Japan. So what do y
00:39:30.289 --> 00:39:31.750
'all, okay, just to sort of, what do y 'all know
00:39:31.750 --> 00:39:35.110
about the Japanese justice system? Apparently
00:39:35.110 --> 00:39:42.030
not enough. Okay. Please help our audience assume
00:39:42.030 --> 00:39:45.329
nothing. So basically, they have like a 99 %
00:39:45.329 --> 00:39:49.349
conviction rate because they're not exactly beneath
00:39:49.349 --> 00:39:52.349
torture to get confessions out of people who
00:39:52.349 --> 00:39:55.670
they think have committed the crime. Oh. And
00:39:55.670 --> 00:39:57.469
people will... This actually makes Ace Attorney
00:39:57.469 --> 00:40:01.889
make a lot more sense. Mm -hmm. And it doesn't
00:40:01.889 --> 00:40:03.590
really matter if you're guilty or innocent. People
00:40:03.590 --> 00:40:05.730
will say whatever they can to get the torture
00:40:05.730 --> 00:40:08.820
to stop. So we don't really know how many of
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:10.719
these people are guilty and how many are innocent
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:13.599
because Japan has like a zero crime tolerance
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:17.860
at all. And their punishments are just so severe,
00:40:17.980 --> 00:40:21.380
so much so that even in their prisons, you can
00:40:21.380 --> 00:40:23.039
be from another country and they'll just put
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:24.199
you in a different ward. You're like, oh, you
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:25.760
don't really know Japanese? Cool. Go with the
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:28.539
foreigners. They don't really care if you're
00:40:28.539 --> 00:40:30.940
another citizen. You're in Japan. You're going
00:40:30.940 --> 00:40:33.440
to follow their laws and you're going to do what
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.639
you're going to do. Again, they just don't care.
00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:37.420
They're not going to extradite you. They're not
00:40:37.420 --> 00:40:38.940
going to do any of that. Nope. You screwed up
00:40:38.940 --> 00:40:40.980
in Japan. Yes. Stay in Japan for like 10 years.
00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:45.320
And in Phoenix, right. You're kind of put in
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:50.980
this position as Phoenix. Where the prosecution
00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:53.400
kind of has like all of the power and the judge
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:55.659
is pretty much useless and beholden to the prosecution.
00:40:56.340 --> 00:40:59.119
And it's an uphill battle to prove your case
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:03.599
because defense attorneys historically, both
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:06.900
in their universe. their version of Japan and
00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:11.380
in Japan itself, it's very hard to win a case
00:41:11.380 --> 00:41:14.960
if you're the defense attorney. And Phoenix Wright
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:17.260
does take place in Japan. They kind of try to,
00:41:17.300 --> 00:41:23.900
like, Americify it, I guess, in the English release,
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.699
but it's still heavily Japanese in its conception
00:41:27.699 --> 00:41:32.179
and all of its different things. But that is...
00:41:32.670 --> 00:41:35.030
kind of like a core part of phoenix right is
00:41:35.030 --> 00:41:37.710
critiquing that and saying hey you're putting
00:41:37.710 --> 00:41:39.710
you're pretty much forcing innocent people behind
00:41:39.710 --> 00:41:41.809
to confess the things they didn't commit and
00:41:41.809 --> 00:41:46.070
putting them behind bars it's it's it's really
00:41:46.070 --> 00:41:49.670
interesting to have that um were you able to
00:41:49.670 --> 00:41:52.630
look into at all like the the writing behind
00:41:52.630 --> 00:41:55.570
that because i'm really curious partially because
00:41:55.570 --> 00:41:57.829
we're talking about these big developers. Capcom
00:41:57.829 --> 00:42:01.889
is one of those big developers. In terms of art
00:42:01.889 --> 00:42:06.030
creation, that's where I look for ethical concerns
00:42:06.030 --> 00:42:10.190
is something like Capcom. They've been around
00:42:10.190 --> 00:42:13.050
for years. They have this huge thing. Yeah, I
00:42:13.050 --> 00:42:15.429
don't know. Do you know anything about the process
00:42:15.429 --> 00:42:20.070
of coming up with the idea for Phoenix and how
00:42:20.070 --> 00:42:25.579
that came to be? while since i've looked into
00:42:25.579 --> 00:42:28.460
it but if i remember correctly a huge chunk of
00:42:28.460 --> 00:42:29.980
it it wasn't just tell a story it was literally
00:42:29.980 --> 00:42:33.099
just to kind of push back against the japanese
00:42:33.099 --> 00:42:37.000
government without um like protesting without
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.980
protesting exactly and like i think capcom was
00:42:39.980 --> 00:42:42.900
really smart in the way they did it because look
00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:44.840
if the gestapo show up at my doorstep it's not
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.159
my fault or it's probably because of this podcast
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:51.400
but if i hear about a protest i was like oh protest
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:55.800
happening for xyz guess what I don't care. You're
00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:57.099
going to stand in front of my car? I'm going
00:42:57.099 --> 00:43:00.059
to run you over. Like, I just, I don't care.
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:05.000
Fair enough. But if I'm playing a game, that's
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.239
different. Because then I'm invested in the story.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:11.460
And Phoenix Wright is very good at giving you
00:43:11.460 --> 00:43:13.139
these stories and these characters that you love
00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:15.840
and that you're invested in. And then trying
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:20.139
to, and like making you care about them. And
00:43:20.139 --> 00:43:22.340
you see these concerns and the more you learn.
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.119
about what it's based off of, the more you go,
00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:28.719
oh, no. And they did a very good job at that.
00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:32.800
Interesting. Interesting. I do think it's interesting,
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.559
thinking about this in terms of, right, like
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:40.039
the idea of a defense attorney is maybe not technically,
00:43:40.099 --> 00:43:45.360
but ideally. a very merciful concept, right?
00:43:46.059 --> 00:43:49.380
Your job as a defense attorney is to argue against
00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:52.039
the system of power and advocate for this person
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:55.900
who is at their mercy. In America, a good defense
00:43:55.900 --> 00:43:57.980
lawyer won't ask if you're guilty or innocent.
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:02.099
They'll just defend you. Right. And so I think
00:44:02.099 --> 00:44:09.519
it's very interesting that part of the conflict
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:13.889
in Phoenix is... Phoenix versus, like, this prosecutor,
00:44:14.030 --> 00:44:16.929
Miles Edgeworth, right, who is his perfect foil.
00:44:17.190 --> 00:44:19.590
But he also gets kind of a redemption arc, right?
00:44:19.630 --> 00:44:22.230
He's this terrible person. But as part of that
00:44:22.230 --> 00:44:25.150
idea of, like, hey, you know, we need to think
00:44:25.150 --> 00:44:28.110
about guilty people, right? We need to pay attention
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:31.809
to, like, the guilty people of our society. Like,
00:44:31.809 --> 00:44:35.630
even Miles, who is clearly guilty, he gets to
00:44:35.630 --> 00:44:39.449
have somewhat of a redemption. And part of Edgeworth's
00:44:39.449 --> 00:44:45.429
redemption arc is... the conviction of his father's
00:44:45.429 --> 00:44:48.650
killer which is huge for him because Phoenix
00:44:48.650 --> 00:44:51.530
helps out with that he's like wait wait there
00:44:51.530 --> 00:44:53.889
is still like humanity within the justice system
00:44:53.889 --> 00:44:57.590
after all because this man who should be trying
00:44:57.590 --> 00:45:02.869
to protect this person gave up a win to um to
00:45:02.869 --> 00:45:05.570
put this man behind bars because of a sense of
00:45:05.570 --> 00:45:07.730
duty. That's not going to work in real life,
00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:10.349
by the way. But it is a very compelling story.
00:45:10.349 --> 00:45:13.269
It's a fantastic story. Most things in Phoenix
00:45:13.269 --> 00:45:15.849
Wright aren't going to work in real life. Including
00:45:15.849 --> 00:45:20.070
his face. Objection! Objection! No, there is
00:45:20.070 --> 00:45:23.690
a really funny article that I came across it
00:45:23.690 --> 00:45:26.190
in passing at some point, but it was a parody
00:45:26.190 --> 00:45:30.280
where... Like, it set up a whole bunch of law
00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:33.019
students that were trying to pass the bar but
00:45:33.019 --> 00:45:34.579
couldn't because all they were trying to do was
00:45:34.579 --> 00:45:41.739
imitate Phoenix Wright. Literally half of Phoenix
00:45:41.739 --> 00:45:44.199
Wright. Well, no, this isn't real. It's fictional.
00:45:44.219 --> 00:45:46.420
But no, what I'm saying is, like, half of Phoenix
00:45:46.420 --> 00:45:50.000
Wright is literally Mia being channeled through
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:53.260
Maya telling him what the frick he should do.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:57.280
yeah and so in the article you get really funny
00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:59.699
things about like yeah i just like i remember
00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:01.780
in phoenix right you're supposed to object to
00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:04.980
everything all the time until something comes
00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:09.360
up and they didn't let me do that crazy no i
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:10.760
think that like a lot of the points that we kind
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:12.500
of made in this conversation was like we want
00:46:12.500 --> 00:46:15.699
like as a community and us specifically you know
00:46:15.699 --> 00:46:18.159
as people who have microphones to say that um
00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:21.360
we want Ethical game creation. Yes, right We
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:23.500
want compelling stories that teach us something
00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:26.199
or make us feel something and we want something
00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:30.039
like in our development that like Has like meaning
00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:33.139
to us personally that will like drive us out
00:46:33.139 --> 00:46:36.719
of our house To wait in lines at GameStop, you
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:40.219
know like game development doesn't have to be
00:46:40.219 --> 00:46:42.440
for the investor and it doesn't have to be for
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:46.300
the corporate and We still want this is one like
00:46:46.300 --> 00:46:50.159
the most lucrative industries in the world. And
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:53.159
it's only growing. And we haven't gone so far
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:55.860
that we can't go back to what Halo 2 was doing.
00:46:56.760 --> 00:47:00.719
We haven't gone so far that we can't just we
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:03.420
can still turn around and create games that have
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:05.239
meaning. And they don't have to be one person
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:09.980
games. They can have big teams that all have
00:47:09.980 --> 00:47:13.019
this love and drive for commentary and change.
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:16.039
And I think that's a beautiful thing and that's
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:20.320
why I love video games. I think that our audience
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:23.440
should touch some grass. Bye, guys.