GAEL UnscriptED S2:E17 | Teacher Retention Starts With Leaders

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Welcome to Gale Learn Scripture, where leadership meets learning and real conversations to have real impact.
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I'm Ben Wiggins, Executive Director of Gale.
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Join us as we go beyond the headlines with Georgia's top education leaders.
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Let's elevate the conversation.
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Welcome back, Gale family, to another exciting episode of Gale Unscripted.
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We've got our special guest back from Glissey, and we have a special guest joining us as well.
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So why don't we just take a couple of minutes, everybody, to introduce themselves just in case they didn't watch parts one and two.
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Jenny, why don't you start off?
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Sure.
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Hi again.
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My name is Jenny Welch.
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I'm Glissey's Chief Strategy and Growth Officer.
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And for those of you who might not have caught the first couple episodes, Glissey stands for, yeah, go back and listen.
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Yes, go back and listen.
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And Glissey stands for the Georgia Leadership Institute for School Improvement.
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And I'm Leslie Hazelbussey, CEO and Executive Director of Glissey.
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And who do we have with us today, Leslie?
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Today we have our friend Jeffrey O'Neill, who is the an assistant principal at Marietta City High School.
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Hey Jeffrey.
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How are you doing, guys?
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We're so happy you're with us.
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Thanks so much for making time during this time of year.
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We know you've got every imaginable uh responsibility.
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You've you've you've already gotten a lot done today, I know.
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High school assistant principal.
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He's probably looking for something to do.
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I mean, we we we are getting we are impeding upon his cafeteria duties, which was one of my favorite things as a high school administrator.
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Well, he's uh yeah, that's yeah, we got you out of that today, right?
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Yes, and I I appreciate it.
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I do, I do.
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You're welcome.
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You're welcome.
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Well, thank you for joining us.
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You don't have prom this weekend, do you?
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No, sir.
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Our prom is in May.
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So everything's all about testing right now.
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That's right.
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Marietta's always special, different, and better.
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All right.
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Well, Leslie, uh Jenny, why don't y'all talk to us a little bit about the retained program?
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And I believe you'll you'll uh let Jeffy share with us a little bit from some of his perspective on that.
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But what is the retained program?
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What does that mean?
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Yeah, well, retain uh stands for restoring teacher aspiration and innovation.
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Say that one more time.
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Restoring teacher aspiration and innovation, right?
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And so the idea that what we want to do is create an environment in schools where teachers aspire to continue to learn, to stay, um, to grow as teachers and continue to innovate their own instructional practice.
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Um, but what's interesting about Retain is we don't actually work with teachers.
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Um, Retain came out of a partnership with Learn for Life, um, led by Ken Zef and his team in the Metro Atlanta area.
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And um, Learn for Life has a really interesting model where they look at a range of indicators across the sort of pre-K to post-secondary spectrum, and they engage groups to explore kind of what are some root causes that might be barriers to movement on some of those indicators.
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And so they pulled together a group around eighth grade math, and they uh that group kind of looked at a whole range of factors that are contributing to student struggles around eighth grade math.
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And um ultimately they narrowed down one of the most impactful barriers as teacher turnover because of how important in middle school that conceptual framework is to really lay down the sequence of uh of mathematical concepts and thinking, and that that disruption really um interrupts the student's ability to kind of progress in learning.
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And so when they then went down the road of, okay, so what is what are some contributors to teacher attrition?
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Again, they looked at all kinds of factors, but one of the most impactful, of course, is teacher working conditions and who has the most direct impact on those teacher working conditions but leaders.
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And of course, even in the private sector, um, you know, a lot of the retention research notes that people don't leave jobs, they leave leaders.
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Um, and so the the Learn for Life uh reached out to us.
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Of course, we've been engaged in some study and some work and some development around programming that is aimed at leaders' adaptive skill sets and some of those human-centered skill sets.
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Um, Lizzie has for a long time been very focused on technical work, right?
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Root cause analysis and data analysis.
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Um, but when we stepped back from our work and looked at what was explaining the difference between outcomes for um districts that had participated for a long time, but weren't seeing significant impacts versus those that were, it was those soft skills, it's those human skills that are the difference maker.
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And so those two tracks ended up intersecting in retain.
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So we worked with Learn for Life and five Metro Atlanta school districts.
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Um, their HR chiefs um got together and worked to help us identify um a handful of schools to start with, and we worked with middle school teams.
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Now, again, going back to some of the other episodes, we don't we don't like to work with individuals because I think it's really tough for an individual person leader, no matter how super heroic, to go into a school and make transformation.
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But a leader with his or her team around them, they can begin to really impact culture.
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And that's why in the retained model, we have leaders and their teams come through and experience this.
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Um, so Jeffrey is part of the second cohort of retained leaders that have come through.
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It's a two-year experience, and it is comprised of kind of face-to-face gatherings that really are about community building and networking across job alikes and um uh across the districts, as well, of course, some skill building, some um some shared language development.
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And then um in addition to that, there's a coaching component.
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There are uh sort of homework or practical components that really invite participants to try some things out in the context of their school.
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And then there is an experience we call a learning studio.
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We're very intentional about not calling it a capstone because this work is ongoing, there's no there's no peak, um, but there is sort of an opportunity to share your journey and really invite others into their own journeys and inspire others through it.
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So um Jeffrey is in the um at the end of the first year of the second cohort, and we just had a learning studio last month, and um we have 24 people in this um cohort.
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Each one um had just a really inspirational story.
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Um, but I really thought that um that Jeffrey's really resonated significantly with me and um and I think others as well.
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And it did it not so much again, this learning studio uh metaphor is designed less to be about, oh, look at Jeffrey, Jeffrey's um uh journey is was was you know a 10 out of 10, although of course it was.
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Um everybody's was.
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Uh but really to what degree did in Jeffrey um reflecting on his growth and sharing his growth with others inspire others to say, hey, how might I embark on a similar kind of um of journey?
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And so we're really excited to have Jeffrey here to join us and um just share a little bit about what your experience has been.
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Um and in particular, maybe if you would, Jeffrey, just start by saying um maybe a little bit about what your journey to the assistant principalship has been, um, and then we'll sort of go from there.
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All right.
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Well, once again, I want to thank you guys for allowing me to come on this podcast.
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Uh, I appreciate the opportunity.
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Um, in terms of my journey into educational leadership, I came into education as a coach.
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Um, I went to the University of West Georgia, uh, was uh about to graduate in uh Lamar County High School reached out to me and said, Hey, I'm coaching football.
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So that's how it started.
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So for the first maybe eight years or so, it was all all out athletics.
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That's all I ever thought about.
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Never in a million years would I expect to have landed where I landed.
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Um, but you know, on the fourth child, it was time to exit uh athletics.
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It was time.
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But when I exited, I uh my trajectory moved really fast.
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So I'm I'm an English teacher by trade.
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That's what I taught.
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Um, but in so you know, I noticed all these uh leadership opportunities that began uh from being a PLC chair, um, leading district PLs, um, you know, all these different opportunities.
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So actually, once I came over to Marietta, um, I've been in Marietta about six years now, um, there was an opening for an administrative assistant, which was basically um our version of an uh leadership intern.
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Um, so I applied for it just because at that point I was like, um, I believe this is something that I could see in my near future.
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Well, not knowing that it was going to be a mid-year promotion.
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So I applied for it uh November, I started in December.
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Um so uh as of today, this makes about three and a half years of leadership for me.
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Um, but that's kind of how I ended up where I am now.
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So when um our current principal came in, Dr.
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Crumbs, uh, he took me from an AA to an assistant principal.
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I've been one here at Marietta here for the last two years.
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And that's kind of how I ended up where I am now.
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Awesome.
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Well, Jeffrey, I wonder if you'd tell us.
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I mean, uh, you know, one of the the patterns in the episodes we've talked about before is that people don't always raise their hands or they don't find themselves engaging with Glissy because you uh you saw something somewhere and said, Hey, let's do it.
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Often it's someone else who is inviting you into it.
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Curious to hear um how did you find out and and um what were some of your initial impressions of your retained experience?
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I uh was notified through an email um that I was a part of uh the second cohort of retained.
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Uh there was like no introduction, no anything.
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I just hey and it said your first meeting will be August, I think 25th.
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I think it was that was the day.
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So I went to Dr.
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Crown and said, Hey doc, I got this email saying that I was a part of this cohort.
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I see your names on it.
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Do you know anything about this?
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He said, Oh yeah, yeah, that that's from HR.
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It wants uh several of us to attend this cohort.
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Um, you know, just you know, just give it a give it a gander and we'll see if it's something that may be feasible for here here uh for us here at MHS.
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Um so that's ultimately I know, right?
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It's probably a parent thanking you that's right for all of the work you've done with their children.
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They got in a little trouble.
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I'm sure that's what it is.
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They'll call that parent call at this point.
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It's I'm I'm a thousand percent sure it's a testing question.
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Uh but yeah, that that's how I was able to uh encounter retain.
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Um do you want me to go on about my experience at this point?
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And so then how yeah, what how did that evolve?
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So uh number one, as a young educational leader, it was it was a little inundating at first because you're sitting at tables with you know principals, um, people that work in HR departments, and people all over the state of Georgia.
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So it was the first time being in a room quite with that composition for me.
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Um, like I said, I'm very early in my in my journey, you know.
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Now, because of where I am, I've been able to do a lot within that journey.
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So um the first thing was trying to figure out what Glissy was, uh, what was the program's goals, like what exactly were we set here to accomplish.
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And once I realized that it was about teacher retention, you know, that was great.
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You know, of course, you know, you can't lead if you don't have anybody willing to follow.
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And those people that have to follow suit are typically going to be your teachers.
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So that that's great.
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But when we looked at the way in which we were going to retain, which was through you know, somatic awareness and and and using our emotional intelligence and being open to the emotions of our staff, that was hard at first.
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That was a hard thing for me to uh grasp based on my experience.
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So as an educator, as a as a sports guy, as a coach, emotions don't really they exist, but they don't really play in performance, right?
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Like these are the goals, these are the set outcomes, these are the things we need, get it done.
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And so that has some that's what I have always established as my working way and dealing with things.
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So to begin to open up and and recognize others' feelings and how things make them feel in terms of motivating them to get jobs done, that was a hard thing to wrap my head around.
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Um, and number one, I had to begin to take myself out of the scenario.
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Like, let me think about what teachers desire, not what Jeff desired as an educator or what Jeff's experience as an educator was.
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Um, and then when we began to peel back those layers and kind of do certain somatic practices and recognizing the stress levels and emotions I myself was encountering, um I began to notice a couple things.
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Like, so for example, in my seminar talk, I focused on teacher voice, um, and how the recognition of teacher voice and allowing teachers to have a voice and creating spaces for their voices to be heard uh would ultimately create a space for teachers to feel where they belong and ultimately boost retention.
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But in doing that, and going through the process of creating those spaces here at MHS, but I also realized um that I was not recognizing my own emotions, specifically around the areas of secondary traumatic stress, when you allow people in your space and they are telling you how things are affecting them, some of which is traumatic.
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I mean, when you walk in and you say, hey, I didn't get a contract, or hey, this happened, you know, I I lost this person, and it's affecting how I'm able to teach my classes, you realize that there's a lot of stress that you're dealing with, and how are you dealing with that stress so that you can still be of assistance to those who need you?
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So retain has been able to equip me with a set of skills where number one, I've been able to even recognize it.
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Because in the past, I would have just, you know, said, hey, it doesn't matter.
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I got to figure out a way, has to get done.
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I'll deal with that stuff later.
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But through Retain, I've been able to develop a set of skills that I use to um help me cope with the stress of the job.
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Therefore, I'm able to be present uh for those who need me at the job.
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So it's been a great experience.
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Um, I've been able to really broaden my capacities, I think, as a leader, um, and really add some valuable skills uh when it comes to giving teacher voice, which I think is extremely important.
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Um, and that was easy for me because, like I said, I was an English educator.
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So one of the things that I always focused on was student voice.
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Like student voice is important.
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Um, when students feel like they're heard, um, they're more willing to take risks, they're more willing to be vulnerable, therefore, I can make or help them learn, right?
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If they do that, and it's it's a weird thing.
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Teachers are the same.
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If there's a sense of belonging, if they feel safe, if they can be vulnerable, then then then we can execute our jobs in ways that we could never have imagined.
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Um, so the the the this retained experience this first year has been amazing.
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I mean, I I never would have imagined that uh uh these skills and techniques would be something that I would be using, but the results that I have seen from them show that you know we have a lot to learn based on our practices in the past.
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So it's been a it's been a great experience.
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You know, leaders, it's the same way.
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Uh principals have to do that with teachers, school leaders, with teachers, teachers, of course, with students.
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But I would say the district office needs to be doing that with their principals.
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Absolutely.
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Humans are humans, boards of education or to be doing that with their superintendents.
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Very, very important.
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So that's and you know, I don't think enough of our leaders really think about what Jeffrey touched on.
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Maybe y'all can elaborate on that a little bit.
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But as a school leader, he he's basically running a little town.
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And with all of those, the students and their parents and those families, they have a lot of problems and needs.
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His faculty has probably caring for aging parents, they're dealing with cancer themselves.
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There's just so many things that the leaders do here and take on.
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And uh, they've got to go back home.
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They got to be able to serve their staff, but they've also got to go home and be fully present.
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Talk about what maybe retained does to help them learn that resilience and and how to how to deal with those things.
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Well, I would say, I mean, I'm don't we don't not gonna throw it all back on on Jeffrey, but I will say he named two things that we think are really critical pieces.
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Um and and so much um uh is repaired by simply giving permission to name some of those things.
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I think one of the things that Jeffrey said, you know, that would have been his previous practice is just sort of, you know, ignoring it, stuffing it down, departmentalizing.
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So I do think that a huge part of what we do is simply creating a space where we normalize talking about it and we have language for talking about it.
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So he talked about um secondary traumatic stress, right?
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And so that's just a whole discipline that's been done looking at first responders, first of all, right?
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There's a lot of people whose professions put them right adjacent to extremely traumatic um experiences, and you don't have to have the experience personally for it to make a significant impact on you.
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That's what we just heard from Jeffrey, but having some language around that that says, oh, I'm not crazy, that that affected me, right?
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And if you know that there's a whole discipline of research that other people experience this too, that and of itself has a very empowering effect that dispels just some of that weight.
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Um, the somatic practices that he talked about, those are um practices that are really about how do we be how do we become effective stewards of our physical plant.
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I think about how we've got great custodians out there that take wonderful care of our physical facilities, our schools, and um, and and we've all experienced when that doesn't happen.
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What happens when a building starts to get um dilapidated?
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Well, our bodies are the same, right?
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And our bodies are built with lots and lots of different signals that can tell us when something's going awry.
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And again, we stuff it down, right?
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And until it becomes an illness or a disease.
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And we can uh if we learn some practices to um to kind of arrest that effect and release it, um, then it has less of a deleterious effect.
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It's not to say that we neutralize it, but we do teach some practices.
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I mean, they're simple things, they're breathing practices.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.039
We did a yoga um session one time.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:59.680
Um, and so there's lots of different ways um to do that, but to normalize it and help the leaders see it not as either self care or something that you're gonna do on the side if you have time, but to really attach it and name it as a peak elite leadership.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.799
Practice, right?
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:24.160
So if you are going for elite levels of leadership practice, not only are you going to be a school improvement ninja and a data wizard, but you are really in charge of your physical body because that is the pathway to generative thinking as a leader, to vision casting, to opening up the imagination, decision making.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:30.400
And so those kinds of leadership tasks require that you are in that space.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.200
You have access to that part of the brain.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.759
So those are just some of the things that we teach.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:41.279
I'll just add on really briefly, and then I'd be curious what uh what Jeffrey would add on as well.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:47.359
Um, but you know, there are, I also, I think I mentioned this on the first episode, come from an athletics background.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:23:02.240
And what Leslie's saying about integrating some of these skills into your practice, I think is a really important piece because what we're not saying is Jeffrey's showing up to work while the phone is ringing and while testing is happening and everything else, and he's doing yoga at his desk, right?
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.359
We're not suggesting that the job's going to keep dropping.
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:12.400
And there is, there are these moments where you need to be ready to perform and to perform at a really high level.
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:24.559
And so this idea of how can I be more aware, um, develop and practice some of these skills through retain and then identify where I can integrate them into my schedule, into my practice, into my habits.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:29.279
Um, that's really what we're aiming for with the folks that we're supporting and serving.
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:30.559
Fantastic.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:31.440
Fantastic.
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:38.960
And I guess I'll jump in because so I can speak specifically as to how I learned these things through routine or retain.
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:40.400
One was through my coach.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:45.519
So my coach, his name is uh AOD-herrison, and he would check in.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:56.400
So we would we would check in like what every every two weeks or so, and we would have conversations about these practices, how they're working, how they're not working, and he would suggest some things.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.960
So for me, there were a couple of things that were really easy.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:07.200
Um, number one, I guess I could call it meditation, it's not quite meditation, but silence.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:16.240
Like when you're dealing with the things that we deal with here, you know, whether it's kids dumping, teachers having it, like it gets to a point.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:20.720
Come in the office, and I would just shut the door for five minutes.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:25.680
Five minutes, no talking, no screen, nothing.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:31.200
Just, you know, trying some of my breathing practices or just sitting in the silence.
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:46.960
Um, and I was just surprised at how much that alleviated stress, and I felt capable now of going and making difficult decisions uh rather than making them in that moment, um, based on you know where I was at at that moment.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:54.240
Um, also, one thing that we developed is to being present in the place where my feet are.
00:24:54.480 --> 00:25:10.880
That was very, very, very important because you know, we're pulled here, there, everywhere in this job and at all times, but trying to figure out a way to plant yourself and be present in the rooms and the places in which you are standing.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:17.359
Um, and then there were self-care things that we were able to develop, like at home.
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.079
Me and my wife have a new rule because of retain.
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:40.400
When I come home, hey, 10 minutes, five minutes, tell me about your day, what happened at your job, five minutes, what happened at your job, and and and that's it, you know, because we tend to carry our jobs with us a little longer than we should in times where we probably should not be thinking about the job.
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.319
Um, and then lastly, I don't know if you remember this one, Leslie.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:26:01.359
Um, I'm a part of a fraternity, I'm a part of uh Cap Alpha Side Fraternity Incorporated, and I joined my uh fraternity's step team, and this thing turned into like one of the best self-care uh practices it could have possibly ever been.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:10.000
Uh, number one, you know, because I was trying something I had never thought about doing, uh, but it really allowed me to clock out from the job.
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.279
So I would say community.
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:14.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:16.480
So it was enjoy music, yeah.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:25.039
It was it was it was a great year because I learned some skills that because, like I said before, so the biggest skill was compartmentalizing.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:29.039
Hey, figure it out, get it done, you'll deal with it later.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:35.119
But actually, through these practices, I'm able to get way more done now.
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:39.119
The because like I'm clear-minded.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:42.880
Um, I I'm I know how to get the stress of the day off of me.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:48.240
Um, I know how to be present now through some of the practices I felt through routine.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:49.680
So it's been great.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:58.960
Well, actually, Jenny, tell us if there's someone watching and they go, Well, I've got I've got some people in my district I would like to go through this program.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:00.799
How do they go about that?
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.160
Uh, how does the nomination or recommendation process, what does that look like?
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:06.799
Sure.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:15.839
Well, right now we are uh so fortunate to have several philanthropic foundation partners that are supporting this work in the metro area in Atlanta.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:28.799
But as a nonprofit organization, we are um and have been having conversations about one of our three-year goals at Glissy is to really make sure that we're having that educator retention impact on the whole state.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:34.880
And so if folks are interested in some of what we've been talking about here today, they can reach out to either Leslie or I.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:43.039
You can find our contact information on Glissy.org, G-L-I-S-I, or uh just look us up in Google that you'll find our email.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:50.480
Um, but we'd be happy to chat about how we can do um something similar uh to what we've been doing with the Metro region to support folks all around the state.
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:51.359
Fantastic.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:54.240
Les there anything you want to add before we sign off?
00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:09.440
I think the only thing I'd add is to reinforce something that Jenny had mentioned, I think, in episode two, which is that in addition to what you just heard from Jeffrey, which is you know direct immediate impacts on leaders, um, that you know, it has a retentive effect.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:16.160
You can hear already that the experience for him is probably gonna mitigate some burnout with leaders.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.519
So it's gonna have a leader retention effect as well.
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:21.759
Um but which leads to teacher retention.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.279
Which can lead to teacher, it can, but maybe it's the right leader.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:26.559
That's right, that's right.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:33.440
But what we did find in looking at the attrition rates year over year over year, and this is the third year.
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:43.279
So we had a first cohort and looked at both years that they were in, and then this cohort, the data just came in, and each year there was a 50% reduction.
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:48.640
So 50% from the first year to the second, another 50% from this from the second year.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:55.599
And then with this cohort, even though they had rather low return uh attrition coming in, we cut it by 50% again.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.359
So it is having an impact on teachers.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:08.559
Um, and it's a little bit of a difference, not chocolate fountains and jeans days, uh, but I do think it's a longer-term sustainable practice that can help leaders and teachers and students.
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:09.440
We hope yeah.
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:30.319
Well, I think uh a general um summary of uh all three episodes with Glissy, I think it's uh, and it's true for for all school districts, if um teacher retention or leader retention student uh academic success is uh is truly important, um, you gotta invest in your people.
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:32.079
That's just the bottom line.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:45.839
You gotta invest the uh the resources, you gotta uh invest the time, uh, and you gotta show your people that you're sincere about caring about them if you are truly serious about retention.
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:51.119
Right and about student learning, because that's the other thing, is there that patient piece?
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:56.960
If you're expecting this the student achievement to happen tomorrow, then people can make that happen.
00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:58.240
We have erasers.
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:05.599
But if you really want to see meaningful learning shift, we've got to have a little bit more patience and look downstream.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:09.759
Well, Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:16.319
Sorry that we interrupted your lunch duty today, but uh, I'm confident that you're gonna be able to make it back.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:16.799
Dr.
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:18.720
Krause will probably give you another there.
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:19.359
You go.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:20.240
Thank you, Jeff.
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:23.680
Thank you so much.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:29.680
All right, and thank you, Gail family, for joining us for another episode of Gail Lunch Scripture.