[0:00] Welcome to the Georgia Baptist Discipleship Podcast.
[0:03] I'm Scott Sullivan, Discipleship Catalyst.
[0:05] Our team exists to strengthen churches in the area of discipleship.
[0:10] We are developing four incredible opportunities to serve local church leaders.
[0:14] First, a brand new resource called Formed, a Discipleship Culture Blueprint.
[0:20] This resource will be shared regionally to help local church leaders create a culture of multiplying disciples.
[0:28] Next, we'll be launching men's ministry cohorts.
[0:31] Our team plans to connect and equip men's ministry leaders across Georgia to reach, connect, and launch men to impact the world.
[0:40] Our team will also be running regional discipleship leader cohorts to equip and mobilize discipleship leaders in each region of the state.
[0:49] Finally, the SPARK Conference.
[0:51] SPARK is our total church equipping event for lay leaders.
[0:54] We trained over 4,100 people in 2025.
[0:58] All six locations are built for 2026, and I hope you will attend a SPARK event in your region and bring your lay leaders.
[1:07] You can get more information on SPARK dates keynotes breakouts and locations by going to thesparkconference Now let join today discussion Leaders I am excited to give you an overview today of our second element of the resource
[1:24] that we've created called Formed, a Discipleship Culture Blueprint.
[1:28] The first element, if you'll remember, was real relationships, where we shared how relationships
[1:33] are the element that ties and strengthens ministry together, and without those deep-rooted
[1:39] relationships, your strategy is going to fracture or crumble over time.
[1:44] Now, today we're talking about disciple-making environments, and I have on with me a very
[1:49] good friend, Matthew Gibbs, who's going to help unpack this in just a moment.
[1:55] And Matthew serves at Second Baptist Warner Robins, Georgia, one of our healthy disciple-making
[1:59] churches here.
[2:01] Welcome, Matthew.
[2:02] Glad you're here, buddy.
[2:03] Thank you, Scott.
[2:03] It's good to be with you.
[2:04] I'm excited about our time together.
[2:07] It is going to be good.
[2:08] And I'm excited about your investment over the last couple of years, even putting this whole resource together.
[2:14] So grateful for that, but also your faithfulness in the local church.
[2:19] So let's jump in here. The second element is called Disciplemaking Environments.
[2:24] And for our listeners I going to go through for a few minutes just an overview kind of an introduction And then we get to a few questions with Matthew to help unpack this a little bit Now if you want a deeper dive into what we talking about we would invite you to be part of our regional discipleship leader cohorts
[2:40] So that's where the deeper dive is. That's where we begin to unpack this and help you think through language and processes and really ask the hard questions and do the real work of discipleship and disciple making processes.
[2:54] Now, those four elements of the disciple-making culture blueprint is real relationships,
[3:01] disciple-making environments, transformational teaching or training, and then intentional
[3:07] multiplication.
[3:08] So leaders, let me start by asking you a question.
[3:12] What environment is actually shaping the people most in your church?
[3:17] Because whether we realize it or not, something is shaping them.
[3:21] Something is discipling them.
[3:23] And here's the truth. Discipleship doesn't happen by accident. It happens in intentional environments and it's tethered to these relationships.
[3:33] And we're not just trying to gather people. We're trying to form disciples. That's what we do.
[3:38] And one of my greatest fears Matthew is that we going to become successful at things in the local church that simply don matter We have gotten really good at mastering things that make the system look good that get us a good paycheck
[3:54] maybe even get us a promotion. But my wonder, is it really making disciples?
[3:59] So our team likes to describe the self-making environments by using the illustration of concrete.
[4:06] So concrete only works when you have all four elements working together.
[4:10] Water, sand, gravel, cement.
[4:12] Now, if you take any one of those out, it weakens everything.
[4:16] Same thing with discipleship and the culture blueprint that we're talking about.
[4:21] So let's talk about those four ingredients, and we'll start with water.
[4:25] Water activates the concrete mix, right?
[4:28] Without it, nothing's going to bind.
[4:30] It's the role of the Holy Spirit.
[4:32] You can have great programming, great preaching.
[4:35] You can have efficient schedules, creative graphics and marketing.
[4:38] But without the Spirit of God, nothing truly changes and our efforts are going to lack power.
[4:45] Well, what you will find is that you can gather a crowd without the Holy Spirit, but you cannot grow disciples without him.
[4:52] Now, the next thing you add in there is sand.
[4:54] That's going to represent in this illustration, small groups.
[4:58] Maybe you call it Sunday school.
[5:00] San provides that base. This is your, you know, the environment where your groups ministry is existing, where people may move from just listening to engaging, where they stop just hearing truth and start living it out in community.
[5:15] Acts 2 says that they were devoted to teaching fellowship and the breaking of bread, right?
[5:20] Well, in the groups ministry, we find that belonging is the bridge to becoming.
[5:26] Now, don't zoom out here because if people don't connect relationally in your church,
[5:30] they likely won't grow spiritually, right?
[5:33] Matthew, we talk all the time about how relationships is the soil by which God is using to create
[5:39] disciples and create the discipleship process.
[5:42] Now, this third ingredient for a strong concrete is gravel.
[5:47] And that represents for us the microgroups in the discipleship culture.
[5:53] Now, this adds a new layer of strength to the process because in the microgroups ministry, you have groups of three to five gender-based participants, and they can add that really needed element of depth and strength to your plan.
[6:09] And here the best practice We seeing micro groups to be one of the fastest growing impact trends across Georgia that really producing transformation stories But I would still say Matthew that most
[6:21] of our churches that we're interacting with don't have this element. And I'm not saying go jump into
[6:27] it. I'm not saying replace everything with the micro group, but I am saying that it's growing.
[6:32] And I am saying that a majority of the stories that we talk about life change are coming from
[6:37] these accountable relationships in these smaller gender-based groups.
[6:42] Now, at this level of discipleship, it does require deeper commitment,
[6:46] confession, accountability, transparency.
[6:49] I like James 5.16 that says,
[6:51] Well, friends, that doesn't happen in crowds,
[6:56] but it happens in these trusted relationships.
[6:59] Now, we have learned a key principle,
[7:02] that transformation happens at the speed of trust.
[7:04] You may have heard that before.
[7:06] We lean on that a lot for our team and trust happens more easily in the smaller
[7:12] group than in the larger group.
[7:14] Now that leads us to the fourth ingredient that we use to use this,
[7:19] this concrete illustration that create this strong,
[7:21] the strong cohesive tool and that's cement.
[7:25] And we use that as a representation of our personal one walk with God Now cement is that thing that holding it all together right It that agent that like our personal walk with Jesus
[7:39] It's foundational.
[7:40] If you have water and you have the aggregate and you put all these things together, but you don't have the cement, it's just not going to work, right?
[7:48] Well, that one-on-one time of the Lord, we see like word, time of the word, prayer, abiding daily.
[7:55] And Jesus modeled this when he often withdrew to be alone with God the Father.
[8:00] For example, what did Jesus do the night before he chose his 12 disciples?
[8:04] Luke 6 says he stayed up all night praying to God the Father.
[8:07] What did he do right before he went to the cross?
[8:10] Well, he went to the garden, Mark 14, and he spent time alone with God the Father.
[8:16] So he modeled this element for us.
[8:19] And I would say, Matthew, that there's not a more foundational piece to everything we're talking about here.
[8:25] And my last sermon, I was preaching at a church in South Georgia, and I even brought up the fact that every church right now knows where that World War III button is.
[8:35] And there may come a time in our lifetime where we can show back up in the local church corporately and enjoy the blessing of corporate worship together Well if that happens we going to lean on that one time with the Lord And my wonder is how many of our people spiritual walk is going to fall apart if they
[8:52] can't show up corporately because they're depending on a human to give them the Word
[8:56] of God.
[8:57] Well, one of the hardest lessons a leader will ever learn is that your public ministry should
[9:03] never outgrow your private devotion.
[9:06] Peter is a great example of this.
[9:07] You think about Mark 14, we find Peter failing three times to acknowledge Jesus in the courtyard.
[9:14] Well, the truth is Peter didn't just fail in the courtyard.
[9:17] He failed in the courtyard because he failed in the garden.
[9:19] Because just before that, Jesus had told the disciples, stay awake, be alert, be awake, pray.
[9:26] And he fell asleep.
[9:28] And what I would say to our disciples and our leaders listening is that you cannot go to sleep at the helm.
[9:34] He's given us leadership responsibility.
[9:36] It's an incredible opportunity, and we don't want to end up failing publicly because we
[9:43] fail privately.
[9:44] Now, here's what's powerful.
[9:46] Jesus modeled all four of these environments.
[9:49] He taught the crowds, a large group.
[9:51] He discipled the 12, the smaller group.
[9:53] He invested in three, what we call the micro group, and he withdrew daily for that personal
[9:59] walk.
[10:00] with God the Father.
[10:01] So his method wasn't random.
[10:03] It was intentional.
[10:04] It's reproducible.
[10:05] But Matthew, there is a gap in a lot of our churches
[10:08] because many churches are still relying on that one environment
[10:12] or maybe one or two environments to kind of carry the day.
[10:15] And my lifetime has shown that putting all your eggs in that basket
[10:19] of that one element or two element, it isn't working.
[10:23] But I do think what we call the sweet spot of connection,
[10:26] The more layers of the church we connect people into, the large group, small group, my group, one-on-one, the more levels you connect people into, the greater potential for life change.
[10:38] Now, lean in here right here, listeners.
[10:41] If you build only one environment, you will produce incomplete disciples.
[10:47] And Matthew, this is where I want to bring you into it because I want to unpack this a little bit and not just talk principles and concepts.
[10:53] I've done the overview.
[10:54] You know, we're getting this out there where we believe Jesus made disciples in multiple levels, multiple environments, large, small, micro, one-on-one.
[11:03] So think about this.
[11:06] Think about yourself as the pastor at First Baptist Dirt Road that typical Baptist church in Georgia If the church disappeared tomorrow which disciple environment would your people miss the most and why And I guess the follow question would be
[11:20] what does your answer reveal about the typical Baptist church?
[11:25] You know, when you give me that question, first of all, Scott, I would say what people miss most
[11:31] would probably be whatever the church has made most accessible. Whatever's most rewarding or
[11:37] the most central to them. And probably what they wouldn't miss or wouldn't think that they would
[11:42] miss is either what's been inconsistent or non-existent for them, probably because it's
[11:48] either underdeveloped, under-emphasized, or not consistently modeled. When I think about the
[11:56] ministry here at Second that I'm blessed to be a part of, I think if you were to ask that question
[12:02] to the average member here would depend on who you asked. For at least 30% of them, it would be
[12:07] the large gathering because that's really the only thing they attend. Now, the positive thing about
[12:13] that is we're being very intentional in helping people take that next step and know what that next
[12:18] step is to move out from the large group and the large room, the worship service, into a smaller
[12:23] group And our desire really is to see that number of 30 move to something more like 20 25 because that gives us a pond to continue to fish in We want to continually see 20 25 of our large group coming you know guests new guests coming
[12:39] And then we want to intentionally move them into that next layer, that next element or what we call that next environment.
[12:47] when it comes to what does it really reveal about the church or a church,
[12:53] what they value versus what they say they value.
[12:58] You know, we've had this conversation here at Second quite a bit.
[13:01] There's a big difference between what we call a stated or aspirational value
[13:07] than what we practice or what is our actual value.
[13:12] here at second we we use this term or this phrase we say we exist to help people find
[13:20] and follow jesus and we are very intentional not only in the evangelism side but the discipleship
[13:27] side which is the back half of the great commission helping them learn how to follow and so we provide
[13:33] intentional direction steps guidance to help them move into those other disciple making environments
[13:39] I think for some churches they would all say we value discipleship but maybe they value something else When you take a look at what they doing maybe they value attendance or content consumption
[13:54] I don't know.
[13:54] But the reality is if we value discipleship, then we have to make intentional steps to move people into environments where discipleship is happening, not just attendance, but transformation, what you talked about earlier.
[14:09] Yeah, for sure.
[14:10] And you and I have got friends over in Alabama, and I'll be keynoting their Disciplemaking
[14:14] Summit next week.
[14:15] I was working on that message a little earlier.
[14:18] And one of the illustrations I'm using is that sniffing a meal illustration that you've
[14:23] heard me share many times, that many of our church members show up on a Sunday morning
[14:27] to sniff the meal that the pastor has been cooking up all week long.
[14:32] And my response to that is, well, how many people get full from sniffing a meal, right?
[14:37] You only get full from feasting on the meal yourself.
[14:41] Well, that's what these disciple making environments are intended to do when one's flowing into and benefiting the others and they're integrated together.
[14:49] It creates a system where people are feasting on the word themselves.
[14:55] They're growing themselves.
[14:56] And then when they show up in church, it's not a dog and ponies.
[15:00] It is a collaboration of what God's been doing all week long.
[15:04] And then there's this explosion of goodness and fellowship and joy.
[15:09] And that's the thing I think that is so attractive to people who don't go to church.
[15:14] But I mean, sadly, Matthew, I'm in churches three out of four preaching typically on Sundays.
[15:20] And what I'm seeing is a lot of those churches, they don't feel like that.
[15:24] Right.
[15:24] So the culture is something you feel when you come onto the campus and you walk into the church.
[15:30] Let me follow up that question with this.
[15:32] For churches that are built on that kind of that one most important layer model, right, that maybe it's their large group assembly.
[15:39] What's the danger in that model?
[15:42] Like if I go hardcore, and listen, I don't want to minimize.
[15:45] I'm going to be very clear right here.
[15:47] I am a fan of the large group assembly.
[15:51] I believe wholeheartedly in the called pastor,
[15:55] the man of God to preach the word of God to the people of God in that largest
[15:58] family.
[15:58] I think our whole group needs to be in there.
[16:00] So be very clear right here.
[16:03] But what's the danger if that's what gets most of our attention and we don't
[16:08] spend the time we need to on these other layers Probably clearly if there aren other layers or if they not valuing and being intentional about those layers there probably more of an assumption
[16:22] of spiritual growth and maturity than an intentionality and relationally and
[16:28] intentionally cultivating it. Maybe that'd be a good way to say it. What is the old saying,
[16:36] if you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time.
[16:40] We don't want to assume that discipleship is happening.
[16:44] We want to intentionally work to ensure, as much as it depends on us,
[16:49] and we know that a lot of that depends on the Holy Spirit,
[16:52] but there's a partnership that we have together with Him.
[16:55] And assumptions always get us in trouble,
[16:58] and we need some way to evaluate how effective we are being,
[17:02] and it needs to be more than the attendance number.
[17:05] Yeah, so that's a great point.
[17:06] Like you just hit on something that's really important because there does seem to be a disconnect between seeing the large group as part of the discipleship process.
[17:17] I think many of our leaders see the large group as it's a separate thing.
[17:22] It might be evangelistic but they don necessarily see it as part of the discipleship process What our team is saying is the large group and the small group and the micro group and your one time with Jesus all of that is part of discipleship
[17:37] or disciple making process. So we want to be able to lean into those for sure. Well, let me,
[17:44] let me hit to this second part here where we're talking about alignment, because we can have these
[17:49] environments and that's great. But one of the questions, matter of fact, I got this from a guy
[17:53] up in the northwest part of Georgia, how do you align the environments?
[17:58] Like, how do they work together to form a pathway?
[18:01] So can you give us two or three practical tips for leaders to connect the dots
[18:06] between these different large groups, small group, micro group, one-on-one?
[18:10] Like, how do you connect those together to where it makes sense for a pastor
[18:14] to understand the pathway?
[18:16] First, I would say those environments don't need to be siloed.
[18:18] They do not need to be independently working,
[18:21] but they need to be a part of what you're calling a pathway.
[18:25] You could use the word system that's intentionally designed to produce disciples.
[18:33] Think in terms of a process rather than simply programs.
[18:37] There a saying programs fill calendars but processes form people And so our programs there nothing wrong with those programs but they may be events or ongoing ministries like we mentioned Sunday school or other things
[18:53] But how do all those programs fit into a process or a system of systems
[18:59] to create an intentional process or pathway to make disciples?
[19:05] we want to help people figure out what is my next step I was telling you earlier before we started
[19:13] this podcast about working with one of our local churches and kind of going through some of this
[19:18] stuff with them and there was a brand new member there we were talking through this and and she
[19:22] said you know I understand this because I don't know what my next step is and so it really created
[19:30] a great conversation about, okay, when people join our church, what is that next step for them?
[19:36] Think about it this way. What is the process to help people take the next step? In other words,
[19:42] is there an intentional system or pathway to help people move along this process of
[19:49] helping them develop and grow as a disciple? I'll give you an example.
[19:52] If someone visits your church on Sunday, what happens even that day after the service is over or
[20:00] Monday or Monday through Friday so that they know what their next step is and what your next steps
[20:06] are to engage them and draw them in because you don't want them to be a guest forever.
[20:10] The desire is to help them if they're lost, come to faith in Christ. If they're a believer who's
[20:15] looking for a local church, to help them find a place to join and to begin to serve. And so what
[20:20] is that pathway? What does that process look like? Here's another one. What if somebody gets saved at
[20:25] your church on Sunday? Somebody gets saved in adult Sunday school. Now that would be a miracle,
[20:28] maybe some would say, but hopefully not. Hopefully it's a regular thing that's happening in your
[20:32] Sunday school class. What happens next? What happens for them? We can't assume we have to
[20:37] be intentional in helping them know how to take that next step. Here's another thing.
[20:43] And this is, if you're watching this and you can grab a piece of paper, I want you to write these
[20:49] words across the page. Write visitor, member, growing disciple, leader, multiplier. And this
[20:58] is just a simple path. I mean, you're going to have to expand it for your church, but think about
[21:03] what are the systems or programs that we have in place to help people move along this path We don want them to be a visitor forever We want them to join the church Then we want them to grow in their faith and mature to the point hopefully they engaged
[21:20] in ministry somewhere, possibly a leader,
[21:23] and ultimately want them to mature to the point
[21:25] that they recognize their responsibility
[21:27] to be a multiplier.
[21:29] So think in terms of steps.
[21:31] What are the beginning steps to draw them into our church?
[21:34] And maybe it starts before they ever get to your campus.
[21:37] You know, personal invitations, your online presence, some type of community event where you invite, you know, people, rich people and invite them.
[21:48] So those are kind of first steps or beginning steps.
[21:50] But then you've got, OK, what's the next step?
[21:52] What's the next step for them?
[21:54] And how do I get them in my ongoing systems or ongoing steps, which would be Sunday school, serving in a ministry team, being active in a D group?
[22:05] And so you map out this process or this pathway.
[22:08] So here's what I want you to do.
[22:10] I want you to take those words
[22:11] and I want you to map out what your current process is.
[22:14] Don't cheat.
[22:14] Don't put stuff that you don't have,
[22:16] but then go back and identify where are the gaps?
[22:19] Where are the dead ends?
[22:20] Where are the redundancies?
[22:22] Where does it lack clarity?
[22:24] And then develop a plan over the next 30 60 90 days to attack that You can do it all at once and you begin and then regularly evaluate it You begin to learn okay here a process
[22:36] Here's where we haven't been intentional.
[22:38] Yes, when somebody gets saved, that's exciting and we celebrate that,
[22:42] but we don't have an intentional process to move them from salvation to being baptized
[22:47] and then engaging in a small group.
[22:49] We need to get that in place.
[22:50] And so those would be the things I would say would be really important in beginning the process of making sure that we're aligning those environments and they're not siloed.
[22:59] They're working together to produce disciples.
[23:03] Yeah, that's good.
[23:03] And 36 years of local church ministry taught me this.
[23:08] Disconnected environments produce disconnected disciples.
[23:11] And that is absolutely not what we want to do.
[23:13] So let's shift our thinking here from multiplication to maintenance, because we know that we need to be multiplying disciples, groups, churches, gospel ministries.
[23:22] But so often we lean back on, we begin to rest on the maintenance of what is built.
[23:29] And it is honestly, Matthew, it's easier to set up a program, get the volunteers and just let that thing ride.
[23:35] But we got to be able to have the multiplication piece in there.
[23:39] So which environments do you see typically are producing more multiplication fruit out of those four we mentioned And then you know where have leaders unintentionally maybe settled for maintenance
[23:52] I think, I think that, and I'm not evading your question here, Scott, but I think any environment
[23:57] where you are intentional about developing it and growing it, evaluating it, making shifts,
[24:03] staying on top of the effectiveness of that ministry, that's the one that's going to be
[24:07] most likely to produce fruit, to grow, to multiply. But when we neglect things or just put them on,
[24:14] you know, cop or autopilot, I almost said copilot, autopilot, and we don't give them attention,
[24:20] that's usually where the ministry gets off the rails or is underdeveloped or becomes weak.
[24:28] Makes me think about, and I live here in middle Georgia, I have a neighbor and I can tell you that
[24:35] he hates to take care of his yard because he only mows the grass about once a month when it's
[24:42] mid-Shin high and rarely does anything to weed eat or anything like that. And so
[24:50] even when his grass is mowed and the poor kid that mows it is one of his children,
[24:55] he doesn't mow it. He's out there with that push mower, you know, and the grass is so high
[25:00] It's so thick. It takes him like three hours to get the front yard because it just keeps quitting on him.
[25:04] But that yard looks neglected even when the grass is mowed and it's not going to be healthy.
[25:10] It's not going to grow the way God desires.
[25:12] You know, the ministry, the way if we do that to these ministries, it's not going to grow the way God desires it to grow.
[25:17] It's not going to multiply. And so we have to stay on top of those things.
[25:22] There has to be a sense of evaluation regularly, engagement, intentionality.
[25:32] I think if we asked our churches, do they value discipleship, most of them would say yes.
[25:38] But I don't think that's the right question.
[25:41] Maybe the first question we need to ask is, what do we mean when we say discipleship?
[25:45] Because we might all be talking about different things.
[25:47] Good word.
[25:48] And the second question is, once we've defined what a biblical disciple is, the question is, are we willing to do what it takes to pursue discipleship in a way that creates real transformation and multiplication?
[26:01] All right.
[26:02] 10,000 bonus points if you can quote our discipleship definition.
[26:06] Okay a disciple is a passionate growing follower of Jesus Christ And discipleship is a lifelong process where a person matures and grows in their faith
[26:25] and multiplies the experience.
[26:27] That's pretty close.
[26:28] It is.
[26:29] That's really close.
[26:29] And friends, the reason I did that is because that's the definition that we're branding across the state.
[26:33] And by the way, that is going to be different than what most people say in discipleship.
[26:38] Because if you were to look at a definition of discipleship and most people's definition of disciple making, it's going to look a lot like what we call discipleship.
[26:47] So we we don't draw a lot of different differentiation between those two words because there's got to be a multiplication piece in both of those when we talk that language.
[26:58] Well, let's not get hung up. Let me because I want to go to this sustainability piece, because this is a part where you and I are hearing a lot of church leaders are struggling is, OK, if I never had a plan, they come get in one of these cohorts we're doing.
[27:12] We help them develop a plan. They get 18 months into it, three years, months in.
[27:17] They're like, OK, the sustainability part. How can we do that? How can we sustain volunteers, be growing new leaders?
[27:24] So here my question Matthew How important is the leadership pipeline within your group system for the sustainability And do you have two or three maybe practical tips for leaders to create new leaders
[27:39] Well, new leaders is vital.
[27:41] It's vital to the sustainability of any ministry because if the ministry is going to grow, it's going to reach more people.
[27:48] You're going to need more leaders to reach those people.
[27:52] Let's just take what we call our Sunday school life groups here.
[27:57] I would say the irreducible minimum of healthy growth and multiplication in Sunday school is going to be new leaders and new classes.
[28:05] And you can't have either if you don't have new leaders.
[28:07] I mean, you can't you can't grow if you don't have both of those.
[28:11] If you got to start new classes, you got to have new leaders.
[28:14] And so a couple of things we do.
[28:18] We start with the end in mind.
[28:20] New groups and new leaders should know,
[28:23] and we try to make sure that they do know,
[28:26] that part of the church's vision and strategy
[28:28] is to start new groups.
[28:30] The expectation is, and the hope is,
[28:33] that within 18 to 24 months,
[28:34] a new class group that starts,
[28:36] they'll produce another one.
[28:38] When it comes to D groups,
[28:39] it when they 8 to 12 months The desire is for those D groups to have three to five other folks in that group and to spend a year to eight to 12 months developing them and then launch them to start another D
[28:52] group. When it comes to our life groups, what we call our Sunday school, the desire is to grow that
[28:57] class, that group in 18 to 24 months, to develop a new leader out of that and to launch a new class.
[29:05] And so it's part of the expectation that we place on those leaders from the very beginning.
[29:11] We ask them to, when we start those new groups, we ask them and we train them that this is the goal.
[29:17] The goal is not to stay together forever, but to launch new groups that will reach new people.
[29:23] Secondly, we have an intentional process where we recruit, discover, recruit, and train leaders.
[29:30] And we do that on a pretty regular basis.
[29:32] And then the other expectation is for people is that they will serve.
[29:38] You know, our pathway, the simple version of our pathway is we believe a disciple of
[29:45] Jesus Christ here at Second Baptist Church will connect.
[29:48] That has to do with worship, personal or corporate and private worship.
[29:52] Grow has to do with being in a small group, being in a D group and serve both in ministry
[29:58] within the body of Christ and.
[30:00] mission outside the walls of the church. And then the implied, not stated, but implied and taught
[30:06] in the process is that they will multiply the experience, multiply themselves and others. So we
[30:11] start with the end in mind. We have an intentional process to consistently and regularly look for and
[30:17] develop and discover, develop new leaders. And then the expectation even in our membership class
[30:25] is that we expect, we desire, we're going to train you to serve.
[30:30] We want you to discover your spiritual gifts
[30:32] and learn how to use them in the way that God has shaped you
[30:36] to serve him and his church.
[30:38] Well, Matthew, so what's interesting to me,
[30:41] and I think phenomenal, is that you guys have a process in place
[30:44] that guides that leadership pipeline, right?
[30:48] But you also have the language that is keeping that in front of your people,
[30:53] but that's multiplying that process keeping them on track that is what creates sustainability and
[30:58] what it that brings a couple of things to my mind and one is i call it the most impactful question
[31:03] that was ever posed to me on the topic of leadership development a guy came up to me
[31:07] one day and he said he said sully do you get greater joy from personal advancement or from seeing fruit grow on someone else tree I was like Oh it wrecked me Cause the truth was
[31:21] and I would even say today,
[31:22] I mean,
[31:22] the personal flesh side of me still looks for personal growth.
[31:27] I want to be a better speaker.
[31:28] I want to be a better leader,
[31:29] right?
[31:29] The personal advancement.
[31:31] I want to be always moving forward.
[31:32] And I think as a general sense,
[31:34] that's not terrible.
[31:34] It's not bad.
[31:35] But when that outpaces my desire to see fruit grow on somebody else's tree,
[31:40] it makes me less of a leader.
[31:43] Maybe someone listening today, maybe that'll help you as you track together.
[31:47] Now, let's move to this last piece and we'll land the plane here.
[31:51] Let's talk about the personal walk with God the Father.
[31:54] Of course, you know my heart on this, Matthew.
[31:56] You've heard me a hundred times or more just talk about that my one-on-one walk with Jesus
[32:00] is the most foundational thing that I can ever do as a disciple, as a husband, as a father.
[32:05] In your opinion, what's the most important practice of a local church pastor, leader, staff member, layperson when it comes to building a disciple making church or when it comes to discipling your own family?
[32:21] Well obviously well maybe not so obviously but obviously your personal walk needs to be a priority in your life But if you wanting to build a disciple making church you need to be a disciple maker as a pastor
[32:36] You need to lead by example.
[32:38] We've probably all heard that statement.
[32:40] It's really hard to lead people where you've never been.
[32:43] But it's also, you know, if the pastor says it, if the pastor does it, it has weight.
[32:49] It has power among the people that he's leading.
[32:53] And it also not only creates value, but puts credence to what you're doing.
[32:59] If the pastor thinks this is important enough that he's personally doing this, then I need to give this a second thought.
[33:06] Yeah.
[33:07] I know as we have traveled around the state, both of us talking to folks, talking to pastors about discipleship and that micro group.
[33:15] I've heard pastors, and I'm sure you have too, say, man, that's a great idea.
[33:18] I just don't know if I have time to add that to my schedule.
[33:22] and with all due respect, if you're too busy
[33:26] to make disciples personally, then you're too busy.
[33:30] You said earlier, we're doing a lot of stuff, but are we doing what really
[33:34] counts? But if you can begin to
[33:38] personally invest in a few you see the fruit of that It will create a joy a sense of joy in making an impact And that impact is multiplied as the years go on because the desire is to produce men or women who will reproduce themselves and others
[33:59] We kind of tongue in cheek, we say when we're discipling, we don't want to produce any mules.
[34:03] We want those that will reproduce.
[34:06] You know, mules are sterile.
[34:07] They don't reproduce.
[34:08] So we don't want any discipleship mules.
[34:11] And so it has to be a regular part of your life.
[34:16] Here at Second, and this is not my expectation, this is our pastor's expectation.
[34:23] If you're on staff here, you will either be, it's expected that you will be in a discipleship group, a micro group, and eventually will be leading discipleship groups on a regular basis.
[34:34] Now, the reality is we know they're all seasons.
[34:37] Yeah.
[34:37] It's short seasons in our life where we may be in between groups and maybe something else going on.
[34:42] But it should be a regular rhythm in our lives of making disciples.
[34:46] It's not an option.
[34:47] We're to make disciples.
[34:48] Now, we can discuss the different methodologies and the ways to best do that, one-on-one, small group, those type things.
[34:57] But we should all be involved in some type of disciple-making.
[35:00] We are pouring the Jesus in us into someone else so that they in turn can do the same.
[35:05] And that's the regular part of that.
[35:06] The other thing I would say, secondly, is if the pastor takes time to make it important from the pulpit,
[35:13] if it becomes a part of his language, talks about our disciple making pathway, defines, you know, in his language,
[35:20] he talks about what a biblical disciple is and continuously encourages people to take their next step in that pathway,
[35:27] whether it's, you know, you're a guest here, we want you to go to our new members class, or
[35:33] you've been active as an attender here, and maybe you've joined, but you're not in a small group,
[35:39] in our life groups. This is a valuable part of your spiritual growth. And then from that,
[35:45] you know, in our life groups, we really encourage to push people to take that next step, to be in a
[35:49] D group, a micro group. And all of those, we use this language here, all of those should be pushing
[35:55] us to that most important group which is me the Word and our Heavenly Father spending time daily regularly with him Yeah Reminds me of First to Loose language of their Jason Thomas Mark Hearn
[36:07] They encourage their people. What's your next? Yes.
[36:11] Everything they do, they're pushing their people to their next.
[36:13] Yes. And this whole discussion here, when we talk about our one on one walk with the Lord, I was just listening to you talk and it brought to mind one of my favorite and most difficult principles that I really try hard to hold on to.
[36:26] And I really believe this, Matthew, that 90% of our leaders, friends, pastors who fail and fall, that could be eradicated if we lived with this one principle.
[36:37] My public ministry should never outpace my private devotion.
[36:41] If we could hold to that, live that out and make that a priority, right?
[36:45] We're doing that.
[36:46] And then we start putting, that's the big rock.
[36:48] Then we start putting the smaller rocks around it.
[36:51] Man, our life just seems to fit a whole lot better.
[36:53] Well, listen, thanks for being on today.
[36:55] Any final comments or words before we close Well two things One for the pastors with this personal walk thing I know when I have adult children now two boys younger boys and a daughter is the oldest
[37:10] But I remember when my boys were little.
[37:13] That was a challenging time in my life.
[37:15] And I was leading a dGroup and I had gathered men, several of them who were older than me, who had already walked through that season.
[37:22] And that was so refreshing to have going there and to be able to tell them, hey, I screwed up this week.
[37:27] I lost my temper or I feel like I'm losing my mind.
[37:30] And for them to encourage me, hold me accountable and invest in me as a young father of raising boys.
[37:39] And so don't ever discredit the impact that being in that dGroup can have for you, Pastor, and allow people to pour into you as you also pour into them.
[37:52] Amen That a good word And leader I want to remind you of this You and I we are the plan It not just pastors It not just staff It not just those who are called to work in the church It every believer in every county and every state and every country You are the plan to make disciples to be a disciple who makes disciples
[38:13] Jesus changed the world through ordinary people, through intentional environments like what we're talking about today.
[38:18] And he's still doing that.
[38:20] So let's not just build ministries that gather crowds.
[38:23] Let's build environments, cultures that make disciples multiplying disciples.
[38:30] Thanks for joining us on the Georgia Baptist Discipleship Podcast.
[38:34] If today's episode encouraged you, would you take a moment to share it on your social media and leave a comment?
[38:41] That helps us serve more leaders across Georgia.
[38:44] If you'd like to stay connected on a deeper level, join our Georgia Baptist Discipleship Facebook group.
[38:50] then message me or send an email so we can keep you in the loop
[38:54] on upcoming opportunities, resources, and training events.
[38:58] Thanks again for listening and for all you're doing to serve faithfully
[39:01] and make multiplying disciples.
[0:03] I'm Scott Sullivan, Discipleship Catalyst.
[0:05] Our team exists to strengthen churches in the area of discipleship.
[0:10] We are developing four incredible opportunities to serve local church leaders.
[0:14] First, a brand new resource called Formed, a Discipleship Culture Blueprint.
[0:20] This resource will be shared regionally to help local church leaders create a culture of multiplying disciples.
[0:28] Next, we'll be launching men's ministry cohorts.
[0:31] Our team plans to connect and equip men's ministry leaders across Georgia to reach, connect, and launch men to impact the world.
[0:40] Our team will also be running regional discipleship leader cohorts to equip and mobilize discipleship leaders in each region of the state.
[0:49] Finally, the SPARK Conference.
[0:51] SPARK is our total church equipping event for lay leaders.
[0:54] We trained over 4,100 people in 2025.
[0:58] All six locations are built for 2026, and I hope you will attend a SPARK event in your region and bring your lay leaders.
[1:07] You can get more information on SPARK dates keynotes breakouts and locations by going to thesparkconference Now let join today discussion Leaders I am excited to give you an overview today of our second element of the resource
[1:24] that we've created called Formed, a Discipleship Culture Blueprint.
[1:28] The first element, if you'll remember, was real relationships, where we shared how relationships
[1:33] are the element that ties and strengthens ministry together, and without those deep-rooted
[1:39] relationships, your strategy is going to fracture or crumble over time.
[1:44] Now, today we're talking about disciple-making environments, and I have on with me a very
[1:49] good friend, Matthew Gibbs, who's going to help unpack this in just a moment.
[1:55] And Matthew serves at Second Baptist Warner Robins, Georgia, one of our healthy disciple-making
[1:59] churches here.
[2:01] Welcome, Matthew.
[2:02] Glad you're here, buddy.
[2:03] Thank you, Scott.
[2:03] It's good to be with you.
[2:04] I'm excited about our time together.
[2:07] It is going to be good.
[2:08] And I'm excited about your investment over the last couple of years, even putting this whole resource together.
[2:14] So grateful for that, but also your faithfulness in the local church.
[2:19] So let's jump in here. The second element is called Disciplemaking Environments.
[2:24] And for our listeners I going to go through for a few minutes just an overview kind of an introduction And then we get to a few questions with Matthew to help unpack this a little bit Now if you want a deeper dive into what we talking about we would invite you to be part of our regional discipleship leader cohorts
[2:40] So that's where the deeper dive is. That's where we begin to unpack this and help you think through language and processes and really ask the hard questions and do the real work of discipleship and disciple making processes.
[2:54] Now, those four elements of the disciple-making culture blueprint is real relationships,
[3:01] disciple-making environments, transformational teaching or training, and then intentional
[3:07] multiplication.
[3:08] So leaders, let me start by asking you a question.
[3:12] What environment is actually shaping the people most in your church?
[3:17] Because whether we realize it or not, something is shaping them.
[3:21] Something is discipling them.
[3:23] And here's the truth. Discipleship doesn't happen by accident. It happens in intentional environments and it's tethered to these relationships.
[3:33] And we're not just trying to gather people. We're trying to form disciples. That's what we do.
[3:38] And one of my greatest fears Matthew is that we going to become successful at things in the local church that simply don matter We have gotten really good at mastering things that make the system look good that get us a good paycheck
[3:54] maybe even get us a promotion. But my wonder, is it really making disciples?
[3:59] So our team likes to describe the self-making environments by using the illustration of concrete.
[4:06] So concrete only works when you have all four elements working together.
[4:10] Water, sand, gravel, cement.
[4:12] Now, if you take any one of those out, it weakens everything.
[4:16] Same thing with discipleship and the culture blueprint that we're talking about.
[4:21] So let's talk about those four ingredients, and we'll start with water.
[4:25] Water activates the concrete mix, right?
[4:28] Without it, nothing's going to bind.
[4:30] It's the role of the Holy Spirit.
[4:32] You can have great programming, great preaching.
[4:35] You can have efficient schedules, creative graphics and marketing.
[4:38] But without the Spirit of God, nothing truly changes and our efforts are going to lack power.
[4:45] Well, what you will find is that you can gather a crowd without the Holy Spirit, but you cannot grow disciples without him.
[4:52] Now, the next thing you add in there is sand.
[4:54] That's going to represent in this illustration, small groups.
[4:58] Maybe you call it Sunday school.
[5:00] San provides that base. This is your, you know, the environment where your groups ministry is existing, where people may move from just listening to engaging, where they stop just hearing truth and start living it out in community.
[5:15] Acts 2 says that they were devoted to teaching fellowship and the breaking of bread, right?
[5:20] Well, in the groups ministry, we find that belonging is the bridge to becoming.
[5:26] Now, don't zoom out here because if people don't connect relationally in your church,
[5:30] they likely won't grow spiritually, right?
[5:33] Matthew, we talk all the time about how relationships is the soil by which God is using to create
[5:39] disciples and create the discipleship process.
[5:42] Now, this third ingredient for a strong concrete is gravel.
[5:47] And that represents for us the microgroups in the discipleship culture.
[5:53] Now, this adds a new layer of strength to the process because in the microgroups ministry, you have groups of three to five gender-based participants, and they can add that really needed element of depth and strength to your plan.
[6:09] And here the best practice We seeing micro groups to be one of the fastest growing impact trends across Georgia that really producing transformation stories But I would still say Matthew that most
[6:21] of our churches that we're interacting with don't have this element. And I'm not saying go jump into
[6:27] it. I'm not saying replace everything with the micro group, but I am saying that it's growing.
[6:32] And I am saying that a majority of the stories that we talk about life change are coming from
[6:37] these accountable relationships in these smaller gender-based groups.
[6:42] Now, at this level of discipleship, it does require deeper commitment,
[6:46] confession, accountability, transparency.
[6:49] I like James 5.16 that says,
[6:51] Well, friends, that doesn't happen in crowds,
[6:56] but it happens in these trusted relationships.
[6:59] Now, we have learned a key principle,
[7:02] that transformation happens at the speed of trust.
[7:04] You may have heard that before.
[7:06] We lean on that a lot for our team and trust happens more easily in the smaller
[7:12] group than in the larger group.
[7:14] Now that leads us to the fourth ingredient that we use to use this,
[7:19] this concrete illustration that create this strong,
[7:21] the strong cohesive tool and that's cement.
[7:25] And we use that as a representation of our personal one walk with God Now cement is that thing that holding it all together right It that agent that like our personal walk with Jesus
[7:39] It's foundational.
[7:40] If you have water and you have the aggregate and you put all these things together, but you don't have the cement, it's just not going to work, right?
[7:48] Well, that one-on-one time of the Lord, we see like word, time of the word, prayer, abiding daily.
[7:55] And Jesus modeled this when he often withdrew to be alone with God the Father.
[8:00] For example, what did Jesus do the night before he chose his 12 disciples?
[8:04] Luke 6 says he stayed up all night praying to God the Father.
[8:07] What did he do right before he went to the cross?
[8:10] Well, he went to the garden, Mark 14, and he spent time alone with God the Father.
[8:16] So he modeled this element for us.
[8:19] And I would say, Matthew, that there's not a more foundational piece to everything we're talking about here.
[8:25] And my last sermon, I was preaching at a church in South Georgia, and I even brought up the fact that every church right now knows where that World War III button is.
[8:35] And there may come a time in our lifetime where we can show back up in the local church corporately and enjoy the blessing of corporate worship together Well if that happens we going to lean on that one time with the Lord And my wonder is how many of our people spiritual walk is going to fall apart if they
[8:52] can't show up corporately because they're depending on a human to give them the Word
[8:56] of God.
[8:57] Well, one of the hardest lessons a leader will ever learn is that your public ministry should
[9:03] never outgrow your private devotion.
[9:06] Peter is a great example of this.
[9:07] You think about Mark 14, we find Peter failing three times to acknowledge Jesus in the courtyard.
[9:14] Well, the truth is Peter didn't just fail in the courtyard.
[9:17] He failed in the courtyard because he failed in the garden.
[9:19] Because just before that, Jesus had told the disciples, stay awake, be alert, be awake, pray.
[9:26] And he fell asleep.
[9:28] And what I would say to our disciples and our leaders listening is that you cannot go to sleep at the helm.
[9:34] He's given us leadership responsibility.
[9:36] It's an incredible opportunity, and we don't want to end up failing publicly because we
[9:43] fail privately.
[9:44] Now, here's what's powerful.
[9:46] Jesus modeled all four of these environments.
[9:49] He taught the crowds, a large group.
[9:51] He discipled the 12, the smaller group.
[9:53] He invested in three, what we call the micro group, and he withdrew daily for that personal
[9:59] walk.
[10:00] with God the Father.
[10:01] So his method wasn't random.
[10:03] It was intentional.
[10:04] It's reproducible.
[10:05] But Matthew, there is a gap in a lot of our churches
[10:08] because many churches are still relying on that one environment
[10:12] or maybe one or two environments to kind of carry the day.
[10:15] And my lifetime has shown that putting all your eggs in that basket
[10:19] of that one element or two element, it isn't working.
[10:23] But I do think what we call the sweet spot of connection,
[10:26] The more layers of the church we connect people into, the large group, small group, my group, one-on-one, the more levels you connect people into, the greater potential for life change.
[10:38] Now, lean in here right here, listeners.
[10:41] If you build only one environment, you will produce incomplete disciples.
[10:47] And Matthew, this is where I want to bring you into it because I want to unpack this a little bit and not just talk principles and concepts.
[10:53] I've done the overview.
[10:54] You know, we're getting this out there where we believe Jesus made disciples in multiple levels, multiple environments, large, small, micro, one-on-one.
[11:03] So think about this.
[11:06] Think about yourself as the pastor at First Baptist Dirt Road that typical Baptist church in Georgia If the church disappeared tomorrow which disciple environment would your people miss the most and why And I guess the follow question would be
[11:20] what does your answer reveal about the typical Baptist church?
[11:25] You know, when you give me that question, first of all, Scott, I would say what people miss most
[11:31] would probably be whatever the church has made most accessible. Whatever's most rewarding or
[11:37] the most central to them. And probably what they wouldn't miss or wouldn't think that they would
[11:42] miss is either what's been inconsistent or non-existent for them, probably because it's
[11:48] either underdeveloped, under-emphasized, or not consistently modeled. When I think about the
[11:56] ministry here at Second that I'm blessed to be a part of, I think if you were to ask that question
[12:02] to the average member here would depend on who you asked. For at least 30% of them, it would be
[12:07] the large gathering because that's really the only thing they attend. Now, the positive thing about
[12:13] that is we're being very intentional in helping people take that next step and know what that next
[12:18] step is to move out from the large group and the large room, the worship service, into a smaller
[12:23] group And our desire really is to see that number of 30 move to something more like 20 25 because that gives us a pond to continue to fish in We want to continually see 20 25 of our large group coming you know guests new guests coming
[12:39] And then we want to intentionally move them into that next layer, that next element or what we call that next environment.
[12:47] when it comes to what does it really reveal about the church or a church,
[12:53] what they value versus what they say they value.
[12:58] You know, we've had this conversation here at Second quite a bit.
[13:01] There's a big difference between what we call a stated or aspirational value
[13:07] than what we practice or what is our actual value.
[13:12] here at second we we use this term or this phrase we say we exist to help people find
[13:20] and follow jesus and we are very intentional not only in the evangelism side but the discipleship
[13:27] side which is the back half of the great commission helping them learn how to follow and so we provide
[13:33] intentional direction steps guidance to help them move into those other disciple making environments
[13:39] I think for some churches they would all say we value discipleship but maybe they value something else When you take a look at what they doing maybe they value attendance or content consumption
[13:54] I don't know.
[13:54] But the reality is if we value discipleship, then we have to make intentional steps to move people into environments where discipleship is happening, not just attendance, but transformation, what you talked about earlier.
[14:09] Yeah, for sure.
[14:10] And you and I have got friends over in Alabama, and I'll be keynoting their Disciplemaking
[14:14] Summit next week.
[14:15] I was working on that message a little earlier.
[14:18] And one of the illustrations I'm using is that sniffing a meal illustration that you've
[14:23] heard me share many times, that many of our church members show up on a Sunday morning
[14:27] to sniff the meal that the pastor has been cooking up all week long.
[14:32] And my response to that is, well, how many people get full from sniffing a meal, right?
[14:37] You only get full from feasting on the meal yourself.
[14:41] Well, that's what these disciple making environments are intended to do when one's flowing into and benefiting the others and they're integrated together.
[14:49] It creates a system where people are feasting on the word themselves.
[14:55] They're growing themselves.
[14:56] And then when they show up in church, it's not a dog and ponies.
[15:00] It is a collaboration of what God's been doing all week long.
[15:04] And then there's this explosion of goodness and fellowship and joy.
[15:09] And that's the thing I think that is so attractive to people who don't go to church.
[15:14] But I mean, sadly, Matthew, I'm in churches three out of four preaching typically on Sundays.
[15:20] And what I'm seeing is a lot of those churches, they don't feel like that.
[15:24] Right.
[15:24] So the culture is something you feel when you come onto the campus and you walk into the church.
[15:30] Let me follow up that question with this.
[15:32] For churches that are built on that kind of that one most important layer model, right, that maybe it's their large group assembly.
[15:39] What's the danger in that model?
[15:42] Like if I go hardcore, and listen, I don't want to minimize.
[15:45] I'm going to be very clear right here.
[15:47] I am a fan of the large group assembly.
[15:51] I believe wholeheartedly in the called pastor,
[15:55] the man of God to preach the word of God to the people of God in that largest
[15:58] family.
[15:58] I think our whole group needs to be in there.
[16:00] So be very clear right here.
[16:03] But what's the danger if that's what gets most of our attention and we don't
[16:08] spend the time we need to on these other layers Probably clearly if there aren other layers or if they not valuing and being intentional about those layers there probably more of an assumption
[16:22] of spiritual growth and maturity than an intentionality and relationally and
[16:28] intentionally cultivating it. Maybe that'd be a good way to say it. What is the old saying,
[16:36] if you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time.
[16:40] We don't want to assume that discipleship is happening.
[16:44] We want to intentionally work to ensure, as much as it depends on us,
[16:49] and we know that a lot of that depends on the Holy Spirit,
[16:52] but there's a partnership that we have together with Him.
[16:55] And assumptions always get us in trouble,
[16:58] and we need some way to evaluate how effective we are being,
[17:02] and it needs to be more than the attendance number.
[17:05] Yeah, so that's a great point.
[17:06] Like you just hit on something that's really important because there does seem to be a disconnect between seeing the large group as part of the discipleship process.
[17:17] I think many of our leaders see the large group as it's a separate thing.
[17:22] It might be evangelistic but they don necessarily see it as part of the discipleship process What our team is saying is the large group and the small group and the micro group and your one time with Jesus all of that is part of discipleship
[17:37] or disciple making process. So we want to be able to lean into those for sure. Well, let me,
[17:44] let me hit to this second part here where we're talking about alignment, because we can have these
[17:49] environments and that's great. But one of the questions, matter of fact, I got this from a guy
[17:53] up in the northwest part of Georgia, how do you align the environments?
[17:58] Like, how do they work together to form a pathway?
[18:01] So can you give us two or three practical tips for leaders to connect the dots
[18:06] between these different large groups, small group, micro group, one-on-one?
[18:10] Like, how do you connect those together to where it makes sense for a pastor
[18:14] to understand the pathway?
[18:16] First, I would say those environments don't need to be siloed.
[18:18] They do not need to be independently working,
[18:21] but they need to be a part of what you're calling a pathway.
[18:25] You could use the word system that's intentionally designed to produce disciples.
[18:33] Think in terms of a process rather than simply programs.
[18:37] There a saying programs fill calendars but processes form people And so our programs there nothing wrong with those programs but they may be events or ongoing ministries like we mentioned Sunday school or other things
[18:53] But how do all those programs fit into a process or a system of systems
[18:59] to create an intentional process or pathway to make disciples?
[19:05] we want to help people figure out what is my next step I was telling you earlier before we started
[19:13] this podcast about working with one of our local churches and kind of going through some of this
[19:18] stuff with them and there was a brand new member there we were talking through this and and she
[19:22] said you know I understand this because I don't know what my next step is and so it really created
[19:30] a great conversation about, okay, when people join our church, what is that next step for them?
[19:36] Think about it this way. What is the process to help people take the next step? In other words,
[19:42] is there an intentional system or pathway to help people move along this process of
[19:49] helping them develop and grow as a disciple? I'll give you an example.
[19:52] If someone visits your church on Sunday, what happens even that day after the service is over or
[20:00] Monday or Monday through Friday so that they know what their next step is and what your next steps
[20:06] are to engage them and draw them in because you don't want them to be a guest forever.
[20:10] The desire is to help them if they're lost, come to faith in Christ. If they're a believer who's
[20:15] looking for a local church, to help them find a place to join and to begin to serve. And so what
[20:20] is that pathway? What does that process look like? Here's another one. What if somebody gets saved at
[20:25] your church on Sunday? Somebody gets saved in adult Sunday school. Now that would be a miracle,
[20:28] maybe some would say, but hopefully not. Hopefully it's a regular thing that's happening in your
[20:32] Sunday school class. What happens next? What happens for them? We can't assume we have to
[20:37] be intentional in helping them know how to take that next step. Here's another thing.
[20:43] And this is, if you're watching this and you can grab a piece of paper, I want you to write these
[20:49] words across the page. Write visitor, member, growing disciple, leader, multiplier. And this
[20:58] is just a simple path. I mean, you're going to have to expand it for your church, but think about
[21:03] what are the systems or programs that we have in place to help people move along this path We don want them to be a visitor forever We want them to join the church Then we want them to grow in their faith and mature to the point hopefully they engaged
[21:20] in ministry somewhere, possibly a leader,
[21:23] and ultimately want them to mature to the point
[21:25] that they recognize their responsibility
[21:27] to be a multiplier.
[21:29] So think in terms of steps.
[21:31] What are the beginning steps to draw them into our church?
[21:34] And maybe it starts before they ever get to your campus.
[21:37] You know, personal invitations, your online presence, some type of community event where you invite, you know, people, rich people and invite them.
[21:48] So those are kind of first steps or beginning steps.
[21:50] But then you've got, OK, what's the next step?
[21:52] What's the next step for them?
[21:54] And how do I get them in my ongoing systems or ongoing steps, which would be Sunday school, serving in a ministry team, being active in a D group?
[22:05] And so you map out this process or this pathway.
[22:08] So here's what I want you to do.
[22:10] I want you to take those words
[22:11] and I want you to map out what your current process is.
[22:14] Don't cheat.
[22:14] Don't put stuff that you don't have,
[22:16] but then go back and identify where are the gaps?
[22:19] Where are the dead ends?
[22:20] Where are the redundancies?
[22:22] Where does it lack clarity?
[22:24] And then develop a plan over the next 30 60 90 days to attack that You can do it all at once and you begin and then regularly evaluate it You begin to learn okay here a process
[22:36] Here's where we haven't been intentional.
[22:38] Yes, when somebody gets saved, that's exciting and we celebrate that,
[22:42] but we don't have an intentional process to move them from salvation to being baptized
[22:47] and then engaging in a small group.
[22:49] We need to get that in place.
[22:50] And so those would be the things I would say would be really important in beginning the process of making sure that we're aligning those environments and they're not siloed.
[22:59] They're working together to produce disciples.
[23:03] Yeah, that's good.
[23:03] And 36 years of local church ministry taught me this.
[23:08] Disconnected environments produce disconnected disciples.
[23:11] And that is absolutely not what we want to do.
[23:13] So let's shift our thinking here from multiplication to maintenance, because we know that we need to be multiplying disciples, groups, churches, gospel ministries.
[23:22] But so often we lean back on, we begin to rest on the maintenance of what is built.
[23:29] And it is honestly, Matthew, it's easier to set up a program, get the volunteers and just let that thing ride.
[23:35] But we got to be able to have the multiplication piece in there.
[23:39] So which environments do you see typically are producing more multiplication fruit out of those four we mentioned And then you know where have leaders unintentionally maybe settled for maintenance
[23:52] I think, I think that, and I'm not evading your question here, Scott, but I think any environment
[23:57] where you are intentional about developing it and growing it, evaluating it, making shifts,
[24:03] staying on top of the effectiveness of that ministry, that's the one that's going to be
[24:07] most likely to produce fruit, to grow, to multiply. But when we neglect things or just put them on,
[24:14] you know, cop or autopilot, I almost said copilot, autopilot, and we don't give them attention,
[24:20] that's usually where the ministry gets off the rails or is underdeveloped or becomes weak.
[24:28] Makes me think about, and I live here in middle Georgia, I have a neighbor and I can tell you that
[24:35] he hates to take care of his yard because he only mows the grass about once a month when it's
[24:42] mid-Shin high and rarely does anything to weed eat or anything like that. And so
[24:50] even when his grass is mowed and the poor kid that mows it is one of his children,
[24:55] he doesn't mow it. He's out there with that push mower, you know, and the grass is so high
[25:00] It's so thick. It takes him like three hours to get the front yard because it just keeps quitting on him.
[25:04] But that yard looks neglected even when the grass is mowed and it's not going to be healthy.
[25:10] It's not going to grow the way God desires.
[25:12] You know, the ministry, the way if we do that to these ministries, it's not going to grow the way God desires it to grow.
[25:17] It's not going to multiply. And so we have to stay on top of those things.
[25:22] There has to be a sense of evaluation regularly, engagement, intentionality.
[25:32] I think if we asked our churches, do they value discipleship, most of them would say yes.
[25:38] But I don't think that's the right question.
[25:41] Maybe the first question we need to ask is, what do we mean when we say discipleship?
[25:45] Because we might all be talking about different things.
[25:47] Good word.
[25:48] And the second question is, once we've defined what a biblical disciple is, the question is, are we willing to do what it takes to pursue discipleship in a way that creates real transformation and multiplication?
[26:01] All right.
[26:02] 10,000 bonus points if you can quote our discipleship definition.
[26:06] Okay a disciple is a passionate growing follower of Jesus Christ And discipleship is a lifelong process where a person matures and grows in their faith
[26:25] and multiplies the experience.
[26:27] That's pretty close.
[26:28] It is.
[26:29] That's really close.
[26:29] And friends, the reason I did that is because that's the definition that we're branding across the state.
[26:33] And by the way, that is going to be different than what most people say in discipleship.
[26:38] Because if you were to look at a definition of discipleship and most people's definition of disciple making, it's going to look a lot like what we call discipleship.
[26:47] So we we don't draw a lot of different differentiation between those two words because there's got to be a multiplication piece in both of those when we talk that language.
[26:58] Well, let's not get hung up. Let me because I want to go to this sustainability piece, because this is a part where you and I are hearing a lot of church leaders are struggling is, OK, if I never had a plan, they come get in one of these cohorts we're doing.
[27:12] We help them develop a plan. They get 18 months into it, three years, months in.
[27:17] They're like, OK, the sustainability part. How can we do that? How can we sustain volunteers, be growing new leaders?
[27:24] So here my question Matthew How important is the leadership pipeline within your group system for the sustainability And do you have two or three maybe practical tips for leaders to create new leaders
[27:39] Well, new leaders is vital.
[27:41] It's vital to the sustainability of any ministry because if the ministry is going to grow, it's going to reach more people.
[27:48] You're going to need more leaders to reach those people.
[27:52] Let's just take what we call our Sunday school life groups here.
[27:57] I would say the irreducible minimum of healthy growth and multiplication in Sunday school is going to be new leaders and new classes.
[28:05] And you can't have either if you don't have new leaders.
[28:07] I mean, you can't you can't grow if you don't have both of those.
[28:11] If you got to start new classes, you got to have new leaders.
[28:14] And so a couple of things we do.
[28:18] We start with the end in mind.
[28:20] New groups and new leaders should know,
[28:23] and we try to make sure that they do know,
[28:26] that part of the church's vision and strategy
[28:28] is to start new groups.
[28:30] The expectation is, and the hope is,
[28:33] that within 18 to 24 months,
[28:34] a new class group that starts,
[28:36] they'll produce another one.
[28:38] When it comes to D groups,
[28:39] it when they 8 to 12 months The desire is for those D groups to have three to five other folks in that group and to spend a year to eight to 12 months developing them and then launch them to start another D
[28:52] group. When it comes to our life groups, what we call our Sunday school, the desire is to grow that
[28:57] class, that group in 18 to 24 months, to develop a new leader out of that and to launch a new class.
[29:05] And so it's part of the expectation that we place on those leaders from the very beginning.
[29:11] We ask them to, when we start those new groups, we ask them and we train them that this is the goal.
[29:17] The goal is not to stay together forever, but to launch new groups that will reach new people.
[29:23] Secondly, we have an intentional process where we recruit, discover, recruit, and train leaders.
[29:30] And we do that on a pretty regular basis.
[29:32] And then the other expectation is for people is that they will serve.
[29:38] You know, our pathway, the simple version of our pathway is we believe a disciple of
[29:45] Jesus Christ here at Second Baptist Church will connect.
[29:48] That has to do with worship, personal or corporate and private worship.
[29:52] Grow has to do with being in a small group, being in a D group and serve both in ministry
[29:58] within the body of Christ and.
[30:00] mission outside the walls of the church. And then the implied, not stated, but implied and taught
[30:06] in the process is that they will multiply the experience, multiply themselves and others. So we
[30:11] start with the end in mind. We have an intentional process to consistently and regularly look for and
[30:17] develop and discover, develop new leaders. And then the expectation even in our membership class
[30:25] is that we expect, we desire, we're going to train you to serve.
[30:30] We want you to discover your spiritual gifts
[30:32] and learn how to use them in the way that God has shaped you
[30:36] to serve him and his church.
[30:38] Well, Matthew, so what's interesting to me,
[30:41] and I think phenomenal, is that you guys have a process in place
[30:44] that guides that leadership pipeline, right?
[30:48] But you also have the language that is keeping that in front of your people,
[30:53] but that's multiplying that process keeping them on track that is what creates sustainability and
[30:58] what it that brings a couple of things to my mind and one is i call it the most impactful question
[31:03] that was ever posed to me on the topic of leadership development a guy came up to me
[31:07] one day and he said he said sully do you get greater joy from personal advancement or from seeing fruit grow on someone else tree I was like Oh it wrecked me Cause the truth was
[31:21] and I would even say today,
[31:22] I mean,
[31:22] the personal flesh side of me still looks for personal growth.
[31:27] I want to be a better speaker.
[31:28] I want to be a better leader,
[31:29] right?
[31:29] The personal advancement.
[31:31] I want to be always moving forward.
[31:32] And I think as a general sense,
[31:34] that's not terrible.
[31:34] It's not bad.
[31:35] But when that outpaces my desire to see fruit grow on somebody else's tree,
[31:40] it makes me less of a leader.
[31:43] Maybe someone listening today, maybe that'll help you as you track together.
[31:47] Now, let's move to this last piece and we'll land the plane here.
[31:51] Let's talk about the personal walk with God the Father.
[31:54] Of course, you know my heart on this, Matthew.
[31:56] You've heard me a hundred times or more just talk about that my one-on-one walk with Jesus
[32:00] is the most foundational thing that I can ever do as a disciple, as a husband, as a father.
[32:05] In your opinion, what's the most important practice of a local church pastor, leader, staff member, layperson when it comes to building a disciple making church or when it comes to discipling your own family?
[32:21] Well obviously well maybe not so obviously but obviously your personal walk needs to be a priority in your life But if you wanting to build a disciple making church you need to be a disciple maker as a pastor
[32:36] You need to lead by example.
[32:38] We've probably all heard that statement.
[32:40] It's really hard to lead people where you've never been.
[32:43] But it's also, you know, if the pastor says it, if the pastor does it, it has weight.
[32:49] It has power among the people that he's leading.
[32:53] And it also not only creates value, but puts credence to what you're doing.
[32:59] If the pastor thinks this is important enough that he's personally doing this, then I need to give this a second thought.
[33:06] Yeah.
[33:07] I know as we have traveled around the state, both of us talking to folks, talking to pastors about discipleship and that micro group.
[33:15] I've heard pastors, and I'm sure you have too, say, man, that's a great idea.
[33:18] I just don't know if I have time to add that to my schedule.
[33:22] and with all due respect, if you're too busy
[33:26] to make disciples personally, then you're too busy.
[33:30] You said earlier, we're doing a lot of stuff, but are we doing what really
[33:34] counts? But if you can begin to
[33:38] personally invest in a few you see the fruit of that It will create a joy a sense of joy in making an impact And that impact is multiplied as the years go on because the desire is to produce men or women who will reproduce themselves and others
[33:59] We kind of tongue in cheek, we say when we're discipling, we don't want to produce any mules.
[34:03] We want those that will reproduce.
[34:06] You know, mules are sterile.
[34:07] They don't reproduce.
[34:08] So we don't want any discipleship mules.
[34:11] And so it has to be a regular part of your life.
[34:16] Here at Second, and this is not my expectation, this is our pastor's expectation.
[34:23] If you're on staff here, you will either be, it's expected that you will be in a discipleship group, a micro group, and eventually will be leading discipleship groups on a regular basis.
[34:34] Now, the reality is we know they're all seasons.
[34:37] Yeah.
[34:37] It's short seasons in our life where we may be in between groups and maybe something else going on.
[34:42] But it should be a regular rhythm in our lives of making disciples.
[34:46] It's not an option.
[34:47] We're to make disciples.
[34:48] Now, we can discuss the different methodologies and the ways to best do that, one-on-one, small group, those type things.
[34:57] But we should all be involved in some type of disciple-making.
[35:00] We are pouring the Jesus in us into someone else so that they in turn can do the same.
[35:05] And that's the regular part of that.
[35:06] The other thing I would say, secondly, is if the pastor takes time to make it important from the pulpit,
[35:13] if it becomes a part of his language, talks about our disciple making pathway, defines, you know, in his language,
[35:20] he talks about what a biblical disciple is and continuously encourages people to take their next step in that pathway,
[35:27] whether it's, you know, you're a guest here, we want you to go to our new members class, or
[35:33] you've been active as an attender here, and maybe you've joined, but you're not in a small group,
[35:39] in our life groups. This is a valuable part of your spiritual growth. And then from that,
[35:45] you know, in our life groups, we really encourage to push people to take that next step, to be in a
[35:49] D group, a micro group. And all of those, we use this language here, all of those should be pushing
[35:55] us to that most important group which is me the Word and our Heavenly Father spending time daily regularly with him Yeah Reminds me of First to Loose language of their Jason Thomas Mark Hearn
[36:07] They encourage their people. What's your next? Yes.
[36:11] Everything they do, they're pushing their people to their next.
[36:13] Yes. And this whole discussion here, when we talk about our one on one walk with the Lord, I was just listening to you talk and it brought to mind one of my favorite and most difficult principles that I really try hard to hold on to.
[36:26] And I really believe this, Matthew, that 90% of our leaders, friends, pastors who fail and fall, that could be eradicated if we lived with this one principle.
[36:37] My public ministry should never outpace my private devotion.
[36:41] If we could hold to that, live that out and make that a priority, right?
[36:45] We're doing that.
[36:46] And then we start putting, that's the big rock.
[36:48] Then we start putting the smaller rocks around it.
[36:51] Man, our life just seems to fit a whole lot better.
[36:53] Well, listen, thanks for being on today.
[36:55] Any final comments or words before we close Well two things One for the pastors with this personal walk thing I know when I have adult children now two boys younger boys and a daughter is the oldest
[37:10] But I remember when my boys were little.
[37:13] That was a challenging time in my life.
[37:15] And I was leading a dGroup and I had gathered men, several of them who were older than me, who had already walked through that season.
[37:22] And that was so refreshing to have going there and to be able to tell them, hey, I screwed up this week.
[37:27] I lost my temper or I feel like I'm losing my mind.
[37:30] And for them to encourage me, hold me accountable and invest in me as a young father of raising boys.
[37:39] And so don't ever discredit the impact that being in that dGroup can have for you, Pastor, and allow people to pour into you as you also pour into them.
[37:52] Amen That a good word And leader I want to remind you of this You and I we are the plan It not just pastors It not just staff It not just those who are called to work in the church It every believer in every county and every state and every country You are the plan to make disciples to be a disciple who makes disciples
[38:13] Jesus changed the world through ordinary people, through intentional environments like what we're talking about today.
[38:18] And he's still doing that.
[38:20] So let's not just build ministries that gather crowds.
[38:23] Let's build environments, cultures that make disciples multiplying disciples.
[38:30] Thanks for joining us on the Georgia Baptist Discipleship Podcast.
[38:34] If today's episode encouraged you, would you take a moment to share it on your social media and leave a comment?
[38:41] That helps us serve more leaders across Georgia.
[38:44] If you'd like to stay connected on a deeper level, join our Georgia Baptist Discipleship Facebook group.
[38:50] then message me or send an email so we can keep you in the loop
[38:54] on upcoming opportunities, resources, and training events.
[38:58] Thanks again for listening and for all you're doing to serve faithfully
[39:01] and make multiplying disciples.
