WEBVTT
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Particularly related to finance and banks, they get a little queasy.
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Um, and and I personally do as well, around um letting an AI model come in and provide you answers, but you're not quite sure what's happening there.
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So actually using it to create software, create repeatable processes is kind of where we're focusing a lot of things right now.
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Welcome to Future Proof.
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I'm Prakash Chundran, CEO of Xano.
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Today I'm joined by Michael Conrath, co-founder and chief product officer of Choice Digital, a fintech company that provides flexible, secure payment software, ensuring that all customers, including the unbanked, received what they're owed.
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Michael is a product leader who spent his career at the intersection of technology and business process, from consulting roles at IBM and Amdocs to leading product at Simple Energy and Uplite to co-founding Choice Digital in 2021.
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What makes this conversation different from a lot of what you'll hear on Future Proof is that Michael isn't running a 100-person engineering org or leading a public company.
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He's a startup founder, but in the trenches building a regulated fintech product with a small, seasoned team navigating PCI compliance, processing close to a billion dollars in payments, and figuring out in real time how AI changes the way his team ships software.
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This is a conversation about what building in a regulated industry actually looks like right now, the tools, the trade-offs, the pace, and how the role of a product-oriented founder is evolving when AI can write most of the first draft.
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Michael, great to have you.
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Thank you so much for being here today.
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Happy to do it.
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Thanks for having me.
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Awesome.
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Well, I covered a little bit of your background and the introduction there, but I'd love for you to take us through your career, like a high-level summary, uh, and what kind of led you to founding uh Choice Digital, and then we'll get into what you're doing today.
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Sure.
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Um Yeah, starting at the beginning, I think growing up, I always had an interest in computers, I think, to start.
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I remember on a my aunt bought us an Apple IIe back in the in the late 80s using that.
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And um uh back when you had five and a half inch floppy discs was the only way you could actually use programs and get in there.
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Remember those.
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Yeah, and I actually um got into just starting to code with basic and doing simple like number guessing games and things like that, um, kind of at a pretty young age.
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So always was attracted to um, I guess, technology, but really it was software at the time, right?
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Um, and going through that.
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Um, as I kind of um grew up, went to college, um, took that through and and and did work, um, graduated with a degree in computer science, but I always wanted to like also understand the business side and focus on like what problems we're trying to solve.
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So I also paired that with uh an economics degree.
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So kind of having both sides of it and um and just not only being someone who who is really focused on only tech, but on the bigger picture and how we can solve problems with technology.
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Um so from there, um coming out of college, I could have gone to straight software engineering and that type of thing, but ended up um being gravitating more towards consulting.
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So was at IBM Business Consulting Services for a while, was with a company called Amdocs, which does um large teltokilling systems, but a lot of that was really around business consulting, a lot of PowerPoint decks, a lot of figuring out how to be a professional, how to how to operate in a in a professional environment.
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Um I think that's really good for folks like to just be at like a large organization and kind of see how some of that works before you you get into to building and and um going out on your own.
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Um but then I I kind of found myself gravitating towards smaller organizations.
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Um, spent some time at a some boutique consulting things in Washington, DC, um doing a lot of government projects, but small companies of you know 10 to 20 to 30 people and really loved that.
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Um and the thing that that ultimately I found to be that true intersection of product and technology and solving business problems is product management.
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Um so had an opportunity um to get involved with a startup called Simple Energy, um focused a lot on um energy efficiency and working with utilities to find ways to help their customers save energy.
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Um and so from there um joined as just a product manager.
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Um actually worked in customer first, customer um success, and then went to product management, um, kind of worked my way through that and began to really realize what it takes to build a product, not just from the tech side, but all the processes that are around it, all of the um customer support, the capabilities that are there.
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And it really um was just something I loved.
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So kind of grew up in that area, um, grew, grew more there.
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Uh, and then ultimately uh Simple Energy was acquired by private equity into a much larger uh company called Uplite, made some great relationships over that time and have two co-founders that I that I founded this business with.
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Um and it really focused on choice digital and uh on customers and and uh getting money to customers in the right way.
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Um a lot of how that started is uh at Uplite.
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We did a lot of things to try to convince people to work with their utility to save energy.
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Uh the classic example of this is a demand response program.
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So that's something where you might have a smart thermostat like a nest um on your wall.
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Uh and during times of high load, we can get people to sign up and say, hey, we'll let the utility adjust my thermostat down on times of high load uh to help grid resiliency and help help make things better for everyone within the grid.
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Um so what uh a lot of that was about was trying to get people to sign up.
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And at the end of that process, uh these customers would um would get an incentive, like a rebate.
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So you might get$100,$150 to uh to sign up for a program.
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We did some surveys asking people how did they feel the rebate, was it worth like your time?
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Was the rebate good?
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Was the process good?
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Was the money worth the effort?
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And and would you do it again?
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Um, and surprisingly, there were a lot of verbatim in the survey that was like, what are you talking about?
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I never got paid.
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What money?
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Look at the data, and we'd actually see these people were sent a check and they cashed the check, but they didn't even know that they they had it, right?
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Or uh in some cases they got a prepaid card and it was activated and spent.
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And so we realized there's there's something missing here and there can be a better way to make this happen.
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So um that was kind of the idea, the genesis of of Choice Digital and how we created this company.
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It was trying to figure out how we can create a way for companies to uh send their customers payments in a way that kind of aligns with their brand, make sure that it has really good deliverability, make sure people understand why they're getting paid.
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Um, and so we've kind of took it off from there.
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Yeah, it's really interesting to hear about kind of the moment of inspiration.
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This is while you were at Uplight, right?
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But most of this was um happening.
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Um, I'm I'm curious, like, you know, as you kind of had the exit there, what gave you um kind of the motivation to say, okay, well, you know, you had these relationships with your potential co-founders at Uplite.
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Let's now take this seat of an idea around payments and disbursements and go headfirst into this regulated space uh of creating what Choice Digital was.
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Or did you know what you were getting into as you kind of started Choice Digital?
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Um, that's a good question.
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Thinking back on it, like I had intended to really take a sabbatical and take some time off, and that lasted about three months.
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Like by the time I was home uh thinking about uh just spending your days, uh you begin to get a little itchy.
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Uh and so it was definitely something that I I'd hoped I'd taken more time off and relaxed a bit more.
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But um just between um talking with uh my other co-founders and and thinking about like what can the next thing be, um, doing some some brainstorming and and we just kind of ended up at that point of knowing we want to do something together.
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Um, but what's an example of an area where we have some knowledge, some expertise, and we think there's a gap in the market.
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Um so that's kind of how that all came to fruition.
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As far as like how we validated the idea a little bit around that, like um we did have a lot of connections in the utility space, and that's really where we we focused and started our businesses how do we facilitate uh payouts for uh utilities paying out money to their customers?
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Um, it's a highly regulated space.
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Um but the way that we kind of put that together was was going out and talking to some customers.
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Um, we talked about 15 people that we knew from um our time at Uplate at that company uh and trying to figure out does this actually um seem like something you would want to buy if we were to improve this process and improve this experience.
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Talked about 15.
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Um almost all of them said yes, I would I would buy that tomorrow if you guys had it, um, which is always great to hear.
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There's always the question of what people say they'll do versus what they actually will do.
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Right.
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That that's the journey started though.
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Yeah, that's um yeah, that that initial validation, it's always kind of scary because you know I'm like, I'm hearing all of the right things and I'm gonna go invest a lot of time and potentially a lot of money to do this, um, but you never really know.
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So, you know, I think there's gonna be people listening to this that either are operating in regulated industries or they want to build something within them.
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Tell me a little bit about the build story because it's one thing to have the idea to solve the problem for our customer.
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And then there are the dynamics around the build of actually doing it and delivering it.
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Talk a little bit about where you started, some of the hurdles you initially needed to uh to jump, and then uh kind of where how that has evolved to where you are today.
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Sure.
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Um yeah, the way this really started, I mean, our company is essentially bootstrapped.
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We took a little bit of investment, but it was really important for us back to that point of people will say they'll buy something from you, but when the contract is in front of them, they're ready to sign, are they actually gonna do it?
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So we wanted to be uh really thoughtful about um not overinvesting or trying to put a bunch of funding behind something that may or may not work.
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Um so the strategy that we took was was really starting small um and starting with no code solutions and then kind of working our way up.
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So we call it V1, the first iteration of the product we built.
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Uh me and my two co-founders sitting in a room.
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Um we had a had one client that was that was ready and interested to buy and do a do a POC with us.
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And we sat in a room in a co-working space for a month and uh we actually used Bubble to build the uh to build the first prototype.
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Uh and so uh for those that don't know Bubble, it's this uh the name is a little goofy, but but it is a a a full end uh no-code development platform.
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So you get kind of a back end, it focuses on workflows and you can do front ends pretty easily and get to market quickly with an idea.
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Um and we probably talk about this a little bit.
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That was 2021, right?
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So AI and um the ways that people build things now are slightly different.
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So I wonder how how that would be now if we had started today.
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We could maybe talk about that in a little bit.
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But um, but we started that way, um built out this prototype in 30 days um and got it to market and um actually started to run run payments through it.
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Uh the very interesting thing is it lasted a lot longer than we we thought it would.
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So we ended up sending about$20 million in payments through this thing before we upgraded.
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Um and that at that point we began to see we always knew there were limitations with with bubble and what it can do.
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Like it was never intended to be a long-term solution.
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And um, that's where we we found out about Xano um and your company and kind of bridging that gap between um no code and and things that you can do self-serve, but but also be a bit more scalable.
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So um began to migrate to uh to that to your platform, to Xano, um, and have had quite a bit of success with that.
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Um and and as you mentioned, we're approaching about a billion dollars worth of payments on that.
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So um a lot of what we focused on was how do we start small?
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How do we we not invest in a huge team, invest in a lot of technology and really prove out the idea before we start to grow?
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Yeah, I think um even in the age of AI, I think that mindset that starting small with small wins in validation is uh is really it's still really important because even in the age of AI where you can kind of get to that first draft or that first proof of concept, it's not even a proof of concept, but it is working really.
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Um, you still need to go through the reps of like, hey, is this solving the real problem?
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And um, can this process the payments?
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How is this going to scale?
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All of those things.
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So, you know, from that working space, uh, the co-working space and you know, your first$20 million to slowly uh evolving from there.
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I'm curious as to, you know, um just the regulation hurdles that you had to think through being in the payment space, being kind of this provider.
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Like what are some of the lessons learned uh that others can uh think about as they kind of hop into a similar maybe domain?
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And actually, I think it's not even limited to um being a regulated domain and in a regulated industry.
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I think for any founder that is um gonna be selling to other businesses, so if you're in any kind of a B2B context, it's and you're gonna be taking your customers' data, it's super important to get that foundation out early.
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So we invested really early uh in developing a SOC one and a SOC 2 framework and getting audits with those almost from the beginning.
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So within our first uh year in business, we had probably five employees and we went down the path of really starting and getting um that SOC 1, SOC 2 framework in place and get the auditing done.
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It is really not as difficult, I think, as maybe a lot of people think to do something like that.
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At the end of the day, all it is is you have to just write down here's how we operate our business, here's how we do things, and then once a year you have to show evidence that you're actually doing it.
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Um and there's a bunch of providers out there that can really help you um do this uh and and do it efficiently.
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They have a lot of starting toolkits with all the processes put together uh that are just great starting points that you can use to almost get, they call it compliance in a box.
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Like you kind of come in there, you get the whole list of these uh policies and procedures to start with.
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You improve them and did you use something like a Vanta or something to do it?
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Yeah, we we looked at Vanta.
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We ended up using Drata, which is a competitor of theirs.
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But um, but yeah, we use Drata.
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Uh the team has been great, the the content library is great, and they're beginning to do a lot of really good things uh with AI and helping automate a lot of the questions that you might get from your potential customers around how you handle data.
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I can answer questionnaires automatically, it makes things really, really great.
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Um, but yeah, for those that that don't um haven't been through it, and and I went through this at at the Startup Simple Energy, we never had these types of uh compliance frameworks in place in the audits.
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And and what'll happen is you'll end up getting like the security team from your client coming to you with a 300-line questionnaire and an Excel spreadsheet that you have to fill out around all of the things that you do and how you meet all the requirements.
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Um, you can do that every time with your client, or you can do it once up front and uh and have it all ready in a in a package and and and do all that.
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So starting early and baking it in was was critical.
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I don't think it slowed us down that much, but I think um bringing it in at the end, like after you have a really big uh organization and a lot of product out the door, bringing it in later is a lot harder.
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Um I'd highly recommend that too.
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That's something I wanted to kind of highlight because I do think that so many people look at security and compliance as an afterthought.
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Um, where it sounds like one of the uh the the key pieces of advice here is like when you're small, it's much, much easier.
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You have a smaller team, a smaller set of things that you uh that are kind of within your control, and you have a smaller code base, right, that you're operating with and you can actually validate that you are doing the things that are kind of within the sock, uh the sock framework.
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Out of curiosity, how did um how much time has that?
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I I realize there's kind of like uh, you know, renewals and re-audits, but like in the initial kind of uh SOC that you got, like how how much time did that take you to uh to acquire?
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So I'd say it was heads down, quite a bit of work for about six weeks, um, where you're probably spending two to four hours a day going through all this and making sure all your ducks are in a row with the auditor.
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Um I'd say that's about what it was.
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It's not like a full-time all-encompassing thing, but it is something that has to be a priority for a bit of time there.
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Uh, and then once you get the first audit up and that initial the initial one through, following on isn't too difficult.
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A lot of these systems, they have automated alerting in them that'll tell you, hey, you just push some, you just push a new repo out and it doesn't have the appropriate, I don't know, let's just say SLDC approval workflows on it.
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Uh, it'll kind of alert you real time, and you can spend a few hours every week just making sure um those processes are all maintained and the evidence is being gathered correctly.
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Uh and so once you get steady state to it, it doesn't take a lot of time.
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And then every year that audit window comes and it does become a bit of a distraction.
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Again, you're gonna spend, spend some time gathering evidence, getting screenshots, pulling things together.
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Um, so so it is something to plan for.
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There's there's definitely an investment there in time, but but not as as wild as I think some folks make it out to be.
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Yeah, I am curious how you think about balancing, you know, staying compliant with pace and the pace of innovation.
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Because uh, especially in the early days where all you want to do is build and talk to customers and build and build and build.
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And sometimes you don't even um understand what the framework of your software is going to be because you're still figuring that out to kind of put into a SOC framework.
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You know, I'm curious how you manage to balance that.
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And today, like what is that split look like in terms of who manages what in terms of the audit windows versus like the pace of innovation?
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Sure.
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Um, it's always gonna be a balance, it's gonna be a trade-off.
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I think in a lot of things related to product or running a business, you're always gonna have um cases where you can't just follow a straightforward process on it.
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Um I do think things, at least at the start, and there's there's kind of how we did it at the beginning and then how we do it now.
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I think at the beginning, it was probably a little more of an afterthought in the process of building our product.
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So we would think through how we want to build something, what the capabilities are, what the data flows are, and we would actually launch this thing.
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And then before we went live, we would give it a review and kind of go through how does this fit within compliance?
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Are we checking all the boxes and are things working for for the stock framework at least?
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Um, and and it was forgiving enough that we could, we were small enough, nimble enough that we could go back and make some adjustments and make that happen.
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And I think I think that's totally okay uh for small businesses because if you're you're trying to launch something, it should not be top of mind of you know, am I following all 32 checkboxes that need to be followed for this product?
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Um so I think a lot of it was was kind of an afterthought.
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Uh and then as we've grown, you know, we're now to about upper 30, lower 40 numbers of head count.
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We did hire um a head of compliance.
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So he now helps us with a lot of these things.
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The the problem has also gotten bigger for us.
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So, you know, SOC is really around internal processes and and how we run things.
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We now um we we're we're a fintech, right?
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:53.680
So we we have a bank that we work with um that really kind of served as our regulator, and they have more processes that we need to follow.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:59.119
Um, we're we're looking to move towards PCI compliance um for some of the products that we're we're putting out.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.839
That requires a lot of time and a lot of effort.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:09.920
Um so we really have a compliance lead, and he's beginning to build a team around him uh to help us kind of put those frameworks together.
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:26.640
Um, how we're looking at it now is that when we're ready to kick off a product or a new launch, we're getting a cross-functional team together, including, you know, that mentioned compliance person, the product team, the engineering team, customer support, and then also like our finance and accounting team because our business is moving.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:31.519
So like that entire group needs to know um what we're doing as we build a plan together.
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.000
And uh compliance does have a seat at the table there.
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:40.079
Yeah, I I love that they were kind of just an integrated piece of like the product delivery process.
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:46.160
Um, just really quick, when you say PCI compliance, you know, you talk you talked about like SOC kind of being the internal controls.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:53.200
A lot of people hear PCI compliance, they associate it with like payment processing and banks, but they don't necessarily know what it is.
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:59.599
Can you at a very high level like explain PCI compliance and why it is important in the industry uh that you are in?
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:00.319
Sure.
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.799
Um so PCI compliance, um, I wish I knew off the top of my head what it stood for.
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.119
Uh, but uh it's basically run by the credit card um companies.
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.519
So um we're talking the organizations that run that.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.319
So Visa, MasterCard are the big ones, American Express.
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:23.519
Um essentially what it is, it's the set of rules you need to follow if you're ever going to store credit card numbers and a couple other pieces of information associated with credit cards.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.160
Um, it's becoming a little more flexible.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:34.079
In the past, it's been extremely rigid about what types of encryption you need to put in place, what types of processes you need to have, how you're protecting the data.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:42.799
But ultimately it's really around um how are you protecting cardholder data and making sure that that's secure and it's being transferred and used in the right way.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.920
Um most folks don't really need to deal with it.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.960
I mean, even if you're a merchant and you're using something like Stripe, you can kind of fill out a self-attestation.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:59.200
There are some things you need to do that um it's not wildly complex or or crazy, but you can kind of fill that out and use Stripe without a ton of effort.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:00.400
For us, we're on the other side.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:07.359
So we're an issue where we're um creating our own prepaid cards, we're letting people use those cards, tracking the transactions, going through the whole thing.
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:15.039
So as you can imagine, the requirements for us are a bit more strict than than what your your average uh user of uh a merchant might might see.
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:16.079
Absolutely.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:29.359
I think just implicit in all of this is that like uh compliance and the regulatory framework that you're operating in kind of in many ways dictates the architecture of how you are building things.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:39.039
I'm curious how you know, as you know, you've kind of gone through the build process, the architectural process, things like lessons learned there.
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:46.559
Because I imagine that maybe you built it one way and then you were like, you know what, we're going to be potentially storing credit card numbers of uh for our customers.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:49.680
We need to re architect things, maybe store them differently.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.000
Share any insights that you have there.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:53.039
Yeah, sure.
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:54.960
Uh one thing we did at the start.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.759
So we started our business where we were basically buying prepaid cards.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.599
From other companies where we may send out checks and we pass that through a different process.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:05.599
We do ACH through a third party.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:09.359
We were really a bit of a, I guess you could say a reseller of other payments.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:12.240
So that architecture almost is like a marketplace.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.119
We're really just connecting together systems, putting a UI in front of it and getting customers through.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:25.200
That was a pretty, pretty simple type of architecture where we just need to track payments and track customer activity, email communications, that kind of stuff.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.200
So it's it's really was a basic thing.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:39.359
As we began to move closer to the what they call the rails and getting closer to the actual payments and fulfilling our own, that's where a lot of these uh specific PCI type things come in place.
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:47.599
What we ended up doing was um segmenting um and creating a full separate system to hold cardholder data.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:54.079
So that really limits the scope and the size of the area that falls under the PCI um compliance side.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:23:02.960
So we only have a small proportion of our code and our processes that have to follow that PCI um framework, and it makes things a lot easier to manage.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:13.680
So think about like segmenting and creating separate systems that are kind of firewalled off so that you can can kind of limit the scope and make your compliance journey a little bit easier, if that makes sense.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:15.839
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:21.599
Um I want to kind of talk, I think, about you and your journey in all of this.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:26.319
You know, you uh I think have this background in computer science.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:28.240
So you know how the system works.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:29.680
You can build the system.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.839
Um, you're product-oriented.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.200
So you're kind of this product-oriented technical founder.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.920
And I'm wondering like how your role has changed.
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.720
Like from the beginning, you were building everything.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.480
Uh, are you still building?
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:49.200
How is your role evolving now that you are, you know, processing a billion dollars of payments?
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:54.079
Like, how how do you see your role change and what's the highest and best use of your time?
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:55.599
You you laid it out there, right?
00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:03.920
Like I started out, me and my two other co-founders in a room building everything to slowly adding more folks to the team and letting more go.
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:08.799
Um, at one point I did bring a um a technical leader to join us.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:16.720
So he's our head of engineering and is a partner with me and and now is is taking on a lot of that leadership for me, which is great.
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:28.480
Um, but yeah, the the flow kind of went from us realizing there's more than us just um creating these processes to to resell payments, that it was going to become bigger.
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:34.160
And that's when we we decided we needed to start hiring more and building more of a dedicated technical engineering team.
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.279
Um so that started a couple of years ago.
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:43.440
Um, and so we've got a team now of about 10 engineers that that um that our BP of engineering leads.
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.200
Um and so we're very much partners in in figuring out how these solutions work.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:49.599
Um so we've kind of scaled that up over time.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:56.240
Personally, I am still getting in and doing code fixes almost every single day or um working on new features.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:06.240
Um again, it's a little bit of the the um the things that maybe are things we want to do quickly that I know how to do from the technology that we we started with that I can do much faster than others.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.640
Um so sometimes I'll I'll jump in and do things, but I'm kind of in there every day.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:21.119
Uh and honestly, it's something I struggle with of like how do I get myself leveled up to be thinking about the bigger picture of the product uh and spend a little bit of less time down in the weeds.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:41.839
And I think that's a bit of a pitfall of both um that you can fall into of kind of the no-code world and now um developing with LLMs and things like that, is that um you can get deep into it and you can build a bunch of great things, but the deeper you're thinking about the software and how every little little thing works, that's less time you have to think about the big picture.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.319
Um so yeah, I've been been doing a bit to try to separate things out.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.319
I do things with time management really to to create focus blocks for myself.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.839
Um, but yes, it very much is something that um that I need to pull myself out of a little bit, I'd say.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:54.400
Yeah.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:17.039
This is something I think about a lot too, because Zano, you know, as an infrastructure uh provider, it's like I have to obviously be a level up running the business, but I also have to be enough in the weeds to like know what I am saying and talking about as people have questions or considering us, and to understand like the DNA of what the platform is.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:30.720
So it's like a very hard balance because if you are too far removed, uh it almost feels like I, you know, you're completely disconnected from what the product is evolving into and you can't infuse your spirit and intention into it.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:36.079
Um, but if you are too in the weeds, then you're not focusing on the future and where you're trying to take the business.
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:37.599
And you're a founder, right?
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.160
I'm a founder, like that's what you want to do.
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.319
You want to get in there and you want to build it and you want to know what's going on.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.720
And so there's there's a bit of that pull to it, right?
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:45.920
That you sometimes have to resist.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.400
So uh yeah, it's very interesting to balance.
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.440
And yeah, the the I don't know how what what things do you do to balance that?
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:52.000
I'm curious.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:59.119
Like uh Yeah, I have really tried uh to put the right people in place.
00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:15.839
I mean, I think it all really comes uh or comes down to team building and making sure that you have the right people in place that have the same culture, they're aligned with the mission, and they understand, like, and they're they're very communicative with you around how they're gonna shape and take the product.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:21.599
I am still currently in the daily engineering sinks because I want to know what is going on.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.440
It's very important for me to do that.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:40.079
However, I don't have to be, but it it does serve me well because when I'm speaking, for example, to uh potential customers, especially like uh when we're, you know, we're a technical product, you're selling to engineers and people that actually want to challenge, uh challenge you.
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:48.160
If you if I uh can't speak at their level, you know, they call BS faster than any other buyer really in the market today.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.039
So I think that for me, that is important.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:00.240
Uh so I have made a conscious effort to, yes, I I spend a the majority, if it's an 80-20 rule, 80% of my time like on the business.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:06.640
Um, and but the inside of the code base and in the business understanding the nuances, that's like probably the 20% time.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.079
And I still don't know the answer.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:13.440
So I like I'm not sure that that that's the right balance, but for me, that's what's working so far.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:13.920
Yeah.
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.680
I think I'm at like 60-40 now.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:16.799
So trying to work my way up.
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:18.400
I'll get to eight to this one day.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:19.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.119
We'll uh we'll get there one day.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:31.279
I'm curious, like as you think about team building and people building, um, you know, I kind of mentioned my philosophy around having kind of culturally aligned people.
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:44.559
How have you thought about building the team, especially kind of in a world where you now are hiring people in the age of AI where you might have more leverage uh than you did before and you may not need certain roles anymore?
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.440
How are you thinking about company building in that way?
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:49.039
Um, it's a good question.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:55.119
I I think a lot of what you you stated aligns really well around having people with the right culture.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.839
Um one thing that we've done here intentionally is a little against the grain, though.
00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:02.640
I think things are coming back is we have a in an office culture.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.440
So we um made an investment to create an office.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:08.480
Folks come in here four days a week uh at least.
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:14.079
And and um so we want people that that want to interact and help build a business in person.
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:15.440
So that's really important to us.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.200
Um I think a lot of things happen.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.839
I know there's a lot of great technology and in ways that you can you can work remotely.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:29.519
Um I think for us, as we're a growing business and we're small and we're trying to build some of that culture, a lot of that just works so much better when you're in person.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.039
So um looking for people that want to do that um is really important.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:49.279
Um secondly, I think when you're a small business, like every incremental hire is so critical and it's so critical to get it right and know that they're gonna be a good fit, that they've got the skills that that you think they have, um, that they are um well aligned to the culture that you're building.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:54.160
Um, so a lot of the team that we have are folks that we all we all know and have have worked with in the past.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:55.519
Um so we've been lucky.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:02.880
I think probably eight out of 11 of our engineers are are folks that either I've worked with or someone on the team has worked with in the past.
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:07.200
Um so that helps you um prevent you from from having a miss.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.920
And a miss at this level can be can be really, really detractable from the the business, right?
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:13.599
Uh so that's really important.
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:17.200
Um so that's about culture and kind of how we find people and what we look for.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:20.079
Um as far as like the team is structured.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:29.440
I wouldn't say we did this purposefully because of um things happening with AI, but but we are focusing more on hiring senior engineers.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:36.079
Our team is all senior, all folks with you know at least 10 years of experience, not a not a hard rule, but just need to be be good and know what they're doing.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:48.160
Um I've found in general, like we don't have time to like be writing down very, very specific uh requirements, documents, laying out um technical solutions and laying out complete architecture for folks.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:54.480
By having a senior team, you can kind of lay out like what you want to accomplish, and you've got more of a partner in trying to build the right solution.
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.839
Um so we've started with with senior engineers, and that's that's really what we have.
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:05.359
And then as um things have been coming around, what we realize too is that the senior engineers are the types of folks that you want to have um using AI.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:11.440
They're the ones that know how to build large scalable systems that maintain uh and follow our compliance frameworks, right?
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:18.799
Ones that that can be you know have high throughput uh and the ability to really build things in in the right way that'll scale for us.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:29.119
Uh and so they're the folks that we think will be able to leverage AI and become much more efficient and and provide you know much more output for the single person.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:29.920
Yeah.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:35.839
And I mean, in general, like how do you think about leveraging AI at Choice Digital?
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:45.920
Is it something like that everyone is experimenting, they have their own whatever ChatGPT or Claude account, or is this something where you've built a framework around that everyone is following?
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:57.440
It's interesting timing that you bring it up because um up until uh actually up until now, it's kind of been everyone kind of doing doing what they want to do and experimenting a little bit with it.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:12.160
Um we are now in the process of kind of putting together an overall framework and an AI policy for ourselves, looking at getting uh choosing one of the providers and getting an enterprise agreement with them to kind of work with them and ensure our data is being held in the right way.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:20.319
Um but yeah, what I've really what we've really been seeing is you know engineers figuring out how they want to use it in the way that kind of accelerates them in the best way.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:31.119
Um, we're starting to do a bit of um kind of lunch and learns and sharing and and folks testing things out and saying, hey, here's a a new admin tool that we want to create.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:36.000
Um let's try to see what it would look like if we used cloud code and built it that way with guidance from an engineer.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.880
Like what would happen?
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:42.079
Um so beginning to figure out like what are the best ways to um to build that way for engineering.
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:50.160
Um as it comes to me and as it comes like to me and and the product team, we're really using it to help us a lot with with UI.
00:32:50.720 --> 00:33:14.000
Um we've found with Figma particularly, but I think with Claude, you can do this as well, is really uploading um a requirements document with the key capabilities you're looking to achieve, key user stories, and it does a great job of spinning out like a high fidelity prototype that you can then iterate on, make quick changes to it, make sure it aligns really well, and then have an engineer take that and implement it in our stack.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.720
So we found some um some success there.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:21.200
Um but overall, I guess I'm kind of getting off the topic of there, of putting together the overall things.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:22.240
Those are things people are doing.
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:24.960
People in our compliance seem to use it for documentation.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:29.200
Uh, folks in customer support are using it to automate some responses.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:35.119
Um, but to the the question you had, we're we're looking to basically create an overall policy and framework for our company.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:40.319
You know, basic things like never put customer data into an AI model, right?
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:40.640
Period.
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:40.799
Yeah.
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:42.720
Like it doesn't get uh things like that.
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:56.480
Uh we also try to focus on, I think it will end up in focusing more on can we use these tools to build deterministic processes that we know the outcome will be for now, and then maybe look at AI being the solution a little bit later.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.799
Um, I think particularly related to to finance and banks, they get a little queasy.
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:10.000
Um, and and I personally do as well, around um letting a an AI model come in and and provide you answers, but you're not quite sure what's happening there.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:15.199
So actually using it to create software, create repeatable processes is kind of where we're focusing a lot of things right now.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:16.000
Yeah.
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:17.039
That makes sense.
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.320
Who's leading that effort uh with Invoice Digital?
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:28.880
Uh so it's uh coming from the executive level, um, in that it's my myself and my two co-founders and basically the ELT is uh starting that.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:39.119
And then we have uh begun doing a set of surveys and we're gonna do some working groups with folks to to figure out how they're using AI and what they want to see out of it, and then um and then putting something together that way.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:50.880
Leveraging AI in a regulated space when you're building a product, like I'm sure you have to be a little bit more careful, not only just like don't you know put customer data in it, but don't build in this way.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:52.320
Don't touch these systems.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.599
There are things that I'm sure you have to be more thoughtful around, right?
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:56.159
Right.
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:56.719
Exactly.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:35:00.079
I think we're very much in the human human in the loop stage, right?
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:11.360
Like anything that is um being created via AI that's gonna go into our code base absolutely needs a human to review that and do a code review and make sure it looks good.
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:19.360
Um, similarly with any data that's going out to our customers, if you're using it for reporting or things like that, we really want to have a human taking a look at it.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:27.199
Um, and it's never really touching, like I said, personal data of our customers is something that that we're just not ready for yet.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:28.800
I think we may get there at some point.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:33.760
Um, but I think there's a lot more that we need to learn just to figure out like how is that going to fit within our business?
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.440
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:47.519
Um, I want to maybe go back to what you were saying in terms of like when you started Choice Digital, like starting in that co-working space and building the first working prototype in 30 days on bubble.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.880
Um, knowing everything that you know now, right?
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.480
What would you and especially the technology that we have today?
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:58.480
Let's say we have the technology of today, but you're starting at zero again.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:00.400
What would you do differently?
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:01.760
How would you approach things?
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:06.639
Having some breaks and some friction in being able to build a product is is actually important.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:13.039
You could go out and throw every kind of feature you want and have um have it automatically created by by an AI agent and have it all built up.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:16.719
But I think you're gonna result in some feature bloat and some things that might not be important.
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:21.440
It might make it harder for you to um understand what problem you're really solving for.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:25.920
And I think there's just a big risk of like, if you can create things so easily, like should you create things so easily?
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:27.599
Are you putting enough thought into how it all works?
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:33.440
So, how do we make sure we're not just creating feature bloat and creating a bunch of things that aren't necessary and that ultimately are harder to sell?
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.000
And how do you focus on the real core part of the product?
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:44.159
And I think the friction of even with no code and us having to be there for a month working on it is we had to really think about like what are the important features and things we're trying to build for our customers.
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.400
I think that's really good insight.
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:49.599
Uh, it almost feels like you can build too much today.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:57.599
And because you can build so much so so quickly, uh, you kind of lose sight into um what you should be building.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:07.920
I think sometimes you set off on a path and you get some traction with the product and you build for certain customers, and then you keep building and adding features because they're telling you to build.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:17.519
I think over time, you're like, okay, well, I'm generally headed in this direction, but what am I, what is the like, what is my ambition here for the company that I'm trying to build?
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:26.079
Like, what do I, where where do I really feel like we have leverage outside of all the other, for example, payment providers uh that exist out there today?
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:38.159
And then based on that, like really finding that ethos, how does that then impact what you are prioritizing in your build and what you are putting down because of it?
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:38.719
Right.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.920
Uh, we've had to go through that exercise, I think, a few times.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:49.360
And I think sometimes just standing still, and I think you were making this point earlier, like friction is a good thing sometimes, right?
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.639
Standing still and saying, wait a second, we're not the same company anymore.
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.360
For us, we're not the same note code company anymore.
00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:03.920
Note code has just been completely, at least how it was defined in 2010 when you started, is no longer in existence in a world with AI.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.400
So, in this new world, how do we define ourselves?
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:23.840
So, I'm wondering if you've gone through this moment in the past couple of years and if that has changed the way that you build and how you might advise other founders and builders, as they're just building and building and building, to take a pause, think through where they're going and how it informs uh what they actually put out into the world.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:32.320
And there were a few things that that were important to us that we laid out as kind of key principles for us as we as we started our business.
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:38.000
One of them, and and I guess it's a a bit of our mission, we always talk about it, but it's customers before economics.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:49.519
Um in fintech, particularly, there can be a lot of cases where you're charging a lot of fees to your customers or you're finding ways where you know maybe they don't know where all of their money is going, and that's how you make make your money.
00:38:49.760 --> 00:39:00.079
For us, that was always really important to make sure that like we're creating a product that helps people get their money and we're we're trying to get that money delivered to them and make it easy for them to spend.
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:03.599
We didn't talk about it a ton too, but we want to make sure we also have a bit of equity there.
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:10.079
Like there's a lot of underbanked and unbanked customers, making sure that we have ways for them to get access to their money and ultimately be able to spend it.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:17.119
So, like putting together that that North Star, that key mission of what you're trying to do, um, it's been really helpful for us.
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:24.719
So as we go through it and as we're making decisions, we have some, we also have some core values and other things that we might use to balance against decisions that we make.
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:39.599
Um, but ultimately, as you're you're looking at the product and you're you're beginning to define what are we going to build or how might we solve this problem or should we even solve this problem, kind of going back to one of the those core um mission statement that that you have is really important.
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:44.079
And sometimes we lay that over what we're doing to try to decide is this really, really something we should do.
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:51.519
Um so I think keeping keeping all of that in mind uh is really important as you as you make decisions about anything in your business.
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:58.800
Um so so there's there's that component of it and um and really just trying to everything back to that.
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:03.679
So as you as you think about what you're building, yeah, yeah, how does that how does that kind of go back?
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:05.039
Yeah.
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:29.519
Um the final question that I have is just around what you are excited about, you know, as you look at the future uh of choice digital, uh, where you want to take things, let's say in the next uh, you know, uh six to eight months, uh especially with the new technological innovations that not only you are introducing, but that the market is also uh making uh accessible to you.
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.840
Uh what are you thinking about?
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.519
What are you really excited about and what do you want to share with our audience?
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:36.159
Sure.
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:41.280
There's a there's a few things personally for us looking to um expand to more markets.
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.239
So we're gonna be looking at going international.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:51.119
Um we're already doing work in Canada, but looking to go to the EU and the UK um as well, doing some explorations there.
00:40:51.280 --> 00:41:03.440
That creates a whole new set of interesting technical problems around data residency, data sovereignty, privacy policies everywhere else, and those kinds of things, which are all becoming um much more complicated.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:07.440
And um, and each different jurisdiction has their own flavor on on how things work.
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:12.400
So getting really smart on that and figuring out how we can scale this business in the right way.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:22.239
Um, from a technology perspective and kind of kind of where things are going, I think ultimately, and it it's always the more things change, the more they stay the same.
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:36.639
But it's like how effectively can we get an idea that's in your mind or on a whiteboard or in a document as quickly and most efficiently into reality, but also in a way that's all the things we talked about, right?
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:41.280
Compliant, scalable, reliable, um, trustworthy, all of those things.
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:48.719
But like, like how do we do that as quickly as possible with as few like unnecessary cycles in the process?
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:58.800
So we're really looking at like, yeah, how can we take uh these changes in technology, the way that folks are building things, and how do we harness it in the right way to move us further forward?
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:00.239
Awesome.
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.719
Well, Mike, really appreciate the conversation.
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.400
I think that's a perfect place to end.
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:08.079
Um, where can people go to learn more about you and what you're doing?
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:13.760
Yeah, if you um have any needs around sending out payments to your customers, you can we'd be happy to talk.
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:17.920
Uh, you can go to choicedigital.com uh and and learn a bit about us there.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.720
Particularly related to finance and banks, they get a little queasy.
00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:10.800
Um, and and I personally do as well, around um letting an AI model come in and provide you answers, but you're not quite sure what's happening there.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:16.239
So actually using it to create software, create repeatable processes is kind of where we're focusing a lot of things right now.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:31.679
Welcome to Future Proof.
00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:34.000
I'm Prakash Chundran, CEO of Xano.
00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:47.359
Today I'm joined by Michael Conrath, co-founder and chief product officer of Choice Digital, a fintech company that provides flexible, secure payment software, ensuring that all customers, including the unbanked, received what they're owed.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:01:01.200
Michael is a product leader who spent his career at the intersection of technology and business process, from consulting roles at IBM and Amdocs to leading product at Simple Energy and Uplite to co-founding Choice Digital in 2021.
00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:09.599
What makes this conversation different from a lot of what you'll hear on Future Proof is that Michael isn't running a 100-person engineering org or leading a public company.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:25.200
He's a startup founder, but in the trenches building a regulated fintech product with a small, seasoned team navigating PCI compliance, processing close to a billion dollars in payments, and figuring out in real time how AI changes the way his team ships software.
00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:38.480
This is a conversation about what building in a regulated industry actually looks like right now, the tools, the trade-offs, the pace, and how the role of a product-oriented founder is evolving when AI can write most of the first draft.
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:40.079
Michael, great to have you.
00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:41.680
Thank you so much for being here today.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:42.799
Happy to do it.
00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:43.760
Thanks for having me.
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:44.480
Awesome.
00:01:44.560 --> 00:02:00.079
Well, I covered a little bit of your background and the introduction there, but I'd love for you to take us through your career, like a high-level summary, uh, and what kind of led you to founding uh Choice Digital, and then we'll get into what you're doing today.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:01.200
Sure.
00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:08.240
Um Yeah, starting at the beginning, I think growing up, I always had an interest in computers, I think, to start.
00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:13.759
I remember on a my aunt bought us an Apple IIe back in the in the late 80s using that.
00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:19.680
And um uh back when you had five and a half inch floppy discs was the only way you could actually use programs and get in there.
00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:20.639
Remember those.
00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:27.680
Yeah, and I actually um got into just starting to code with basic and doing simple like number guessing games and things like that, um, kind of at a pretty young age.
00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:34.479
So always was attracted to um, I guess, technology, but really it was software at the time, right?
00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:35.759
Um, and going through that.
00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:50.159
Um, as I kind of um grew up, went to college, um, took that through and and and did work, um, graduated with a degree in computer science, but I always wanted to like also understand the business side and focus on like what problems we're trying to solve.
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.319
So I also paired that with uh an economics degree.
00:02:52.479 --> 00:03:01.039
So kind of having both sides of it and um and just not only being someone who who is really focused on only tech, but on the bigger picture and how we can solve problems with technology.
00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:09.919
Um so from there, um coming out of college, I could have gone to straight software engineering and that type of thing, but ended up um being gravitating more towards consulting.
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:25.439
So was at IBM Business Consulting Services for a while, was with a company called Amdocs, which does um large teltokilling systems, but a lot of that was really around business consulting, a lot of PowerPoint decks, a lot of figuring out how to be a professional, how to how to operate in a in a professional environment.
00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:34.560
Um I think that's really good for folks like to just be at like a large organization and kind of see how some of that works before you you get into to building and and um going out on your own.
00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:39.039
Um but then I I kind of found myself gravitating towards smaller organizations.
00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:50.479
Um, spent some time at a some boutique consulting things in Washington, DC, um doing a lot of government projects, but small companies of you know 10 to 20 to 30 people and really loved that.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:58.960
Um and the thing that that ultimately I found to be that true intersection of product and technology and solving business problems is product management.
00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:11.520
Um so had an opportunity um to get involved with a startup called Simple Energy, um focused a lot on um energy efficiency and working with utilities to find ways to help their customers save energy.
00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:16.399
Um and so from there um joined as just a product manager.
00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:33.839
Um actually worked in customer first, customer um success, and then went to product management, um, kind of worked my way through that and began to really realize what it takes to build a product, not just from the tech side, but all the processes that are around it, all of the um customer support, the capabilities that are there.
00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:35.920
And it really um was just something I loved.
00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.759
So kind of grew up in that area, um, grew, grew more there.
00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:51.279
Uh, and then ultimately uh Simple Energy was acquired by private equity into a much larger uh company called Uplite, made some great relationships over that time and have two co-founders that I that I founded this business with.
00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:59.279
Um and it really focused on choice digital and uh on customers and and uh getting money to customers in the right way.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:02.639
Um a lot of how that started is uh at Uplite.
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:07.920
We did a lot of things to try to convince people to work with their utility to save energy.
00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.600
Uh the classic example of this is a demand response program.
00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:15.759
So that's something where you might have a smart thermostat like a nest um on your wall.
00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:27.199
Uh and during times of high load, we can get people to sign up and say, hey, we'll let the utility adjust my thermostat down on times of high load uh to help grid resiliency and help help make things better for everyone within the grid.
00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:31.360
Um so what uh a lot of that was about was trying to get people to sign up.
00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:37.920
And at the end of that process, uh these customers would um would get an incentive, like a rebate.
00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.879
So you might get$100,$150 to uh to sign up for a program.
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We did some surveys asking people how did they feel the rebate, was it worth like your time?
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Was the rebate good?
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Was the process good?
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Was the money worth the effort?
00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:50.319
And and would you do it again?
00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.600
Um, and surprisingly, there were a lot of verbatim in the survey that was like, what are you talking about?
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I never got paid.
00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:57.120
What money?
00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:02.720
Look at the data, and we'd actually see these people were sent a check and they cashed the check, but they didn't even know that they they had it, right?
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:05.920
Or uh in some cases they got a prepaid card and it was activated and spent.
00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:10.000
And so we realized there's there's something missing here and there can be a better way to make this happen.
00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:14.879
So um that was kind of the idea, the genesis of of Choice Digital and how we created this company.
00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:28.240
It was trying to figure out how we can create a way for companies to uh send their customers payments in a way that kind of aligns with their brand, make sure that it has really good deliverability, make sure people understand why they're getting paid.
00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.480
Um, and so we've kind of took it off from there.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.959
Yeah, it's really interesting to hear about kind of the moment of inspiration.
00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:36.720
This is while you were at Uplight, right?
00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:39.120
But most of this was um happening.
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:53.120
Um, I'm I'm curious, like, you know, as you kind of had the exit there, what gave you um kind of the motivation to say, okay, well, you know, you had these relationships with your potential co-founders at Uplite.
00:06:53.759 --> 00:07:04.879
Let's now take this seat of an idea around payments and disbursements and go headfirst into this regulated space uh of creating what Choice Digital was.
00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:09.040
Or did you know what you were getting into as you kind of started Choice Digital?
00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:10.879
Um, that's a good question.
00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:16.800
Thinking back on it, like I had intended to really take a sabbatical and take some time off, and that lasted about three months.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:22.720
Like by the time I was home uh thinking about uh just spending your days, uh you begin to get a little itchy.
00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:27.839
Uh and so it was definitely something that I I'd hoped I'd taken more time off and relaxed a bit more.
00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:42.480
But um just between um talking with uh my other co-founders and and thinking about like what can the next thing be, um, doing some some brainstorming and and we just kind of ended up at that point of knowing we want to do something together.
00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:48.399
Um, but what's an example of an area where we have some knowledge, some expertise, and we think there's a gap in the market.
00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:51.839
Um so that's kind of how that all came to fruition.
00:07:52.319 --> 00:08:08.319
As far as like how we validated the idea a little bit around that, like um we did have a lot of connections in the utility space, and that's really where we we focused and started our businesses how do we facilitate uh payouts for uh utilities paying out money to their customers?
00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.079
Um, it's a highly regulated space.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.680
Um but the way that we kind of put that together was was going out and talking to some customers.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:25.600
Um, we talked about 15 people that we knew from um our time at Uplate at that company uh and trying to figure out does this actually um seem like something you would want to buy if we were to improve this process and improve this experience.
00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:26.879
Talked about 15.
00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:32.399
Um almost all of them said yes, I would I would buy that tomorrow if you guys had it, um, which is always great to hear.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:36.159
There's always the question of what people say they'll do versus what they actually will do.
00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:36.480
Right.
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:38.639
That that's the journey started though.
00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:50.720
Yeah, that's um yeah, that that initial validation, it's always kind of scary because you know I'm like, I'm hearing all of the right things and I'm gonna go invest a lot of time and potentially a lot of money to do this, um, but you never really know.
00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:58.720
So, you know, I think there's gonna be people listening to this that either are operating in regulated industries or they want to build something within them.
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:04.399
Tell me a little bit about the build story because it's one thing to have the idea to solve the problem for our customer.
00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:08.720
And then there are the dynamics around the build of actually doing it and delivering it.
00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:18.399
Talk a little bit about where you started, some of the hurdles you initially needed to uh to jump, and then uh kind of where how that has evolved to where you are today.
00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:19.279
Sure.
00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:24.240
Um yeah, the way this really started, I mean, our company is essentially bootstrapped.
00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:35.440
We took a little bit of investment, but it was really important for us back to that point of people will say they'll buy something from you, but when the contract is in front of them, they're ready to sign, are they actually gonna do it?
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:45.360
So we wanted to be uh really thoughtful about um not overinvesting or trying to put a bunch of funding behind something that may or may not work.
00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:53.840
Um so the strategy that we took was was really starting small um and starting with no code solutions and then kind of working our way up.
00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:57.440
So we call it V1, the first iteration of the product we built.
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:00.159
Uh me and my two co-founders sitting in a room.
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:05.200
Um we had a had one client that was that was ready and interested to buy and do a do a POC with us.
00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:12.080
And we sat in a room in a co-working space for a month and uh we actually used Bubble to build the uh to build the first prototype.
00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:20.399
Uh and so uh for those that don't know Bubble, it's this uh the name is a little goofy, but but it is a a a full end uh no-code development platform.
00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:26.960
So you get kind of a back end, it focuses on workflows and you can do front ends pretty easily and get to market quickly with an idea.
00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:28.960
Um and we probably talk about this a little bit.
00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:30.080
That was 2021, right?
00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:34.080
So AI and um the ways that people build things now are slightly different.
00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.399
So I wonder how how that would be now if we had started today.
00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:38.000
We could maybe talk about that in a little bit.
00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:45.840
But um, but we started that way, um built out this prototype in 30 days um and got it to market and um actually started to run run payments through it.
00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:50.159
Uh the very interesting thing is it lasted a lot longer than we we thought it would.
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.240
So we ended up sending about$20 million in payments through this thing before we upgraded.
00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:59.759
Um and that at that point we began to see we always knew there were limitations with with bubble and what it can do.
00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:01.840
Like it was never intended to be a long-term solution.
00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:13.600
And um, that's where we we found out about Xano um and your company and kind of bridging that gap between um no code and and things that you can do self-serve, but but also be a bit more scalable.
00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:19.919
So um began to migrate to uh to that to your platform, to Xano, um, and have had quite a bit of success with that.
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.279
Um and and as you mentioned, we're approaching about a billion dollars worth of payments on that.
00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.480
So um a lot of what we focused on was how do we start small?
00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:32.320
How do we we not invest in a huge team, invest in a lot of technology and really prove out the idea before we start to grow?
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:51.600
Yeah, I think um even in the age of AI, I think that mindset that starting small with small wins in validation is uh is really it's still really important because even in the age of AI where you can kind of get to that first draft or that first proof of concept, it's not even a proof of concept, but it is working really.
00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:56.639
Um, you still need to go through the reps of like, hey, is this solving the real problem?
00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:58.960
And um, can this process the payments?
00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:00.399
How is this going to scale?
00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:01.440
All of those things.
00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:08.960
So, you know, from that working space, uh, the co-working space and you know, your first$20 million to slowly uh evolving from there.
00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:19.600
I'm curious as to, you know, um just the regulation hurdles that you had to think through being in the payment space, being kind of this provider.
00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:27.039
Like what are some of the lessons learned uh that others can uh think about as they kind of hop into a similar maybe domain?
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:33.840
And actually, I think it's not even limited to um being a regulated domain and in a regulated industry.
00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:46.399
I think for any founder that is um gonna be selling to other businesses, so if you're in any kind of a B2B context, it's and you're gonna be taking your customers' data, it's super important to get that foundation out early.
00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:55.600
So we invested really early uh in developing a SOC one and a SOC 2 framework and getting audits with those almost from the beginning.
00:12:55.759 --> 00:13:07.600
So within our first uh year in business, we had probably five employees and we went down the path of really starting and getting um that SOC 1, SOC 2 framework in place and get the auditing done.
00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.519
It is really not as difficult, I think, as maybe a lot of people think to do something like that.
00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:23.440
At the end of the day, all it is is you have to just write down here's how we operate our business, here's how we do things, and then once a year you have to show evidence that you're actually doing it.
00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:29.679
Um and there's a bunch of providers out there that can really help you um do this uh and and do it efficiently.
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:37.679
They have a lot of starting toolkits with all the processes put together uh that are just great starting points that you can use to almost get, they call it compliance in a box.
00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:43.120
Like you kind of come in there, you get the whole list of these uh policies and procedures to start with.
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:46.720
You improve them and did you use something like a Vanta or something to do it?
00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:48.240
Yeah, we we looked at Vanta.
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.200
We ended up using Drata, which is a competitor of theirs.
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:52.639
But um, but yeah, we use Drata.
00:13:52.960 --> 00:14:04.639
Uh the team has been great, the the content library is great, and they're beginning to do a lot of really good things uh with AI and helping automate a lot of the questions that you might get from your potential customers around how you handle data.
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.919
I can answer questionnaires automatically, it makes things really, really great.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:18.240
Um, but yeah, for those that that don't um haven't been through it, and and I went through this at at the Startup Simple Energy, we never had these types of uh compliance frameworks in place in the audits.
00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:29.759
And and what'll happen is you'll end up getting like the security team from your client coming to you with a 300-line questionnaire and an Excel spreadsheet that you have to fill out around all of the things that you do and how you meet all the requirements.
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:36.080
Um, you can do that every time with your client, or you can do it once up front and uh and have it all ready in a in a package and and and do all that.
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.279
So starting early and baking it in was was critical.
00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:50.799
I don't think it slowed us down that much, but I think um bringing it in at the end, like after you have a really big uh organization and a lot of product out the door, bringing it in later is a lot harder.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.039
Um I'd highly recommend that too.
00:14:53.279 --> 00:15:01.840
That's something I wanted to kind of highlight because I do think that so many people look at security and compliance as an afterthought.
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:08.960
Um, where it sounds like one of the uh the the key pieces of advice here is like when you're small, it's much, much easier.
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:22.159
You have a smaller team, a smaller set of things that you uh that are kind of within your control, and you have a smaller code base, right, that you're operating with and you can actually validate that you are doing the things that are kind of within the sock, uh the sock framework.
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.360
Out of curiosity, how did um how much time has that?
00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:36.559
I I realize there's kind of like uh, you know, renewals and re-audits, but like in the initial kind of uh SOC that you got, like how how much time did that take you to uh to acquire?
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:50.240
So I'd say it was heads down, quite a bit of work for about six weeks, um, where you're probably spending two to four hours a day going through all this and making sure all your ducks are in a row with the auditor.
00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:52.960
Um I'd say that's about what it was.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.759
It's not like a full-time all-encompassing thing, but it is something that has to be a priority for a bit of time there.
00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:04.879
Uh, and then once you get the first audit up and that initial the initial one through, following on isn't too difficult.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:16.320
A lot of these systems, they have automated alerting in them that'll tell you, hey, you just push some, you just push a new repo out and it doesn't have the appropriate, I don't know, let's just say SLDC approval workflows on it.
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:25.519
Uh, it'll kind of alert you real time, and you can spend a few hours every week just making sure um those processes are all maintained and the evidence is being gathered correctly.
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:28.879
Uh and so once you get steady state to it, it doesn't take a lot of time.
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:32.320
And then every year that audit window comes and it does become a bit of a distraction.
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:36.879
Again, you're gonna spend, spend some time gathering evidence, getting screenshots, pulling things together.
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:38.559
Um, so so it is something to plan for.
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:43.360
There's there's definitely an investment there in time, but but not as as wild as I think some folks make it out to be.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:52.399
Yeah, I am curious how you think about balancing, you know, staying compliant with pace and the pace of innovation.
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:59.200
Because uh, especially in the early days where all you want to do is build and talk to customers and build and build and build.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:11.200
And sometimes you don't even um understand what the framework of your software is going to be because you're still figuring that out to kind of put into a SOC framework.
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.160
You know, I'm curious how you manage to balance that.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:22.880
And today, like what is that split look like in terms of who manages what in terms of the audit windows versus like the pace of innovation?
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:23.599
Sure.
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.960
Um, it's always gonna be a balance, it's gonna be a trade-off.
00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:35.599
I think in a lot of things related to product or running a business, you're always gonna have um cases where you can't just follow a straightforward process on it.
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:42.000
Um I do think things, at least at the start, and there's there's kind of how we did it at the beginning and then how we do it now.
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:48.000
I think at the beginning, it was probably a little more of an afterthought in the process of building our product.
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:56.000
So we would think through how we want to build something, what the capabilities are, what the data flows are, and we would actually launch this thing.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:01.759
And then before we went live, we would give it a review and kind of go through how does this fit within compliance?
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.519
Are we checking all the boxes and are things working for for the stock framework at least?
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:11.759
Um, and and it was forgiving enough that we could, we were small enough, nimble enough that we could go back and make some adjustments and make that happen.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:22.000
And I think I think that's totally okay uh for small businesses because if you're you're trying to launch something, it should not be top of mind of you know, am I following all 32 checkboxes that need to be followed for this product?
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.640
Um so I think a lot of it was was kind of an afterthought.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:31.440
Uh and then as we've grown, you know, we're now to about upper 30, lower 40 numbers of head count.
00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.680
We did hire um a head of compliance.
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:36.400
So he now helps us with a lot of these things.
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:38.880
The the problem has also gotten bigger for us.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:43.839
So, you know, SOC is really around internal processes and and how we run things.
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.640
We now um we we're we're a fintech, right?
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:53.680
So we we have a bank that we work with um that really kind of served as our regulator, and they have more processes that we need to follow.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:59.119
Um, we're we're looking to move towards PCI compliance um for some of the products that we're we're putting out.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.839
That requires a lot of time and a lot of effort.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:09.920
Um so we really have a compliance lead, and he's beginning to build a team around him uh to help us kind of put those frameworks together.
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:26.640
Um, how we're looking at it now is that when we're ready to kick off a product or a new launch, we're getting a cross-functional team together, including, you know, that mentioned compliance person, the product team, the engineering team, customer support, and then also like our finance and accounting team because our business is moving.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:31.519
So like that entire group needs to know um what we're doing as we build a plan together.
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.000
And uh compliance does have a seat at the table there.
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:40.079
Yeah, I I love that they were kind of just an integrated piece of like the product delivery process.
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:46.160
Um, just really quick, when you say PCI compliance, you know, you talk you talked about like SOC kind of being the internal controls.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:53.200
A lot of people hear PCI compliance, they associate it with like payment processing and banks, but they don't necessarily know what it is.
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:59.599
Can you at a very high level like explain PCI compliance and why it is important in the industry uh that you are in?
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:00.319
Sure.
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.799
Um so PCI compliance, um, I wish I knew off the top of my head what it stood for.
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.119
Uh, but uh it's basically run by the credit card um companies.
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.519
So um we're talking the organizations that run that.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.319
So Visa, MasterCard are the big ones, American Express.
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:23.519
Um essentially what it is, it's the set of rules you need to follow if you're ever going to store credit card numbers and a couple other pieces of information associated with credit cards.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.160
Um, it's becoming a little more flexible.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:34.079
In the past, it's been extremely rigid about what types of encryption you need to put in place, what types of processes you need to have, how you're protecting the data.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:42.799
But ultimately it's really around um how are you protecting cardholder data and making sure that that's secure and it's being transferred and used in the right way.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.920
Um most folks don't really need to deal with it.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.960
I mean, even if you're a merchant and you're using something like Stripe, you can kind of fill out a self-attestation.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:59.200
There are some things you need to do that um it's not wildly complex or or crazy, but you can kind of fill that out and use Stripe without a ton of effort.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:00.400
For us, we're on the other side.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:07.359
So we're an issue where we're um creating our own prepaid cards, we're letting people use those cards, tracking the transactions, going through the whole thing.
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:15.039
So as you can imagine, the requirements for us are a bit more strict than than what your your average uh user of uh a merchant might might see.
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:16.079
Absolutely.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:29.359
I think just implicit in all of this is that like uh compliance and the regulatory framework that you're operating in kind of in many ways dictates the architecture of how you are building things.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:39.039
I'm curious how you know, as you know, you've kind of gone through the build process, the architectural process, things like lessons learned there.
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:46.559
Because I imagine that maybe you built it one way and then you were like, you know what, we're going to be potentially storing credit card numbers of uh for our customers.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:49.680
We need to re architect things, maybe store them differently.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.000
Share any insights that you have there.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:53.039
Yeah, sure.
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:54.960
Uh one thing we did at the start.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.759
So we started our business where we were basically buying prepaid cards.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.599
From other companies where we may send out checks and we pass that through a different process.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:05.599
We do ACH through a third party.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:09.359
We were really a bit of a, I guess you could say a reseller of other payments.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:12.240
So that architecture almost is like a marketplace.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.119
We're really just connecting together systems, putting a UI in front of it and getting customers through.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:25.200
That was a pretty, pretty simple type of architecture where we just need to track payments and track customer activity, email communications, that kind of stuff.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.200
So it's it's really was a basic thing.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:39.359
As we began to move closer to the what they call the rails and getting closer to the actual payments and fulfilling our own, that's where a lot of these uh specific PCI type things come in place.
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:47.599
What we ended up doing was um segmenting um and creating a full separate system to hold cardholder data.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:54.079
So that really limits the scope and the size of the area that falls under the PCI um compliance side.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:23:02.960
So we only have a small proportion of our code and our processes that have to follow that PCI um framework, and it makes things a lot easier to manage.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:13.680
So think about like segmenting and creating separate systems that are kind of firewalled off so that you can can kind of limit the scope and make your compliance journey a little bit easier, if that makes sense.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:15.839
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:21.599
Um I want to kind of talk, I think, about you and your journey in all of this.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:26.319
You know, you uh I think have this background in computer science.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:28.240
So you know how the system works.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:29.680
You can build the system.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.839
Um, you're product-oriented.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.200
So you're kind of this product-oriented technical founder.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.920
And I'm wondering like how your role has changed.
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.720
Like from the beginning, you were building everything.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.480
Uh, are you still building?
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:49.200
How is your role evolving now that you are, you know, processing a billion dollars of payments?
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:54.079
Like, how how do you see your role change and what's the highest and best use of your time?
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:55.599
You you laid it out there, right?
00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:03.920
Like I started out, me and my two other co-founders in a room building everything to slowly adding more folks to the team and letting more go.
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:08.799
Um, at one point I did bring a um a technical leader to join us.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:16.720
So he's our head of engineering and is a partner with me and and now is is taking on a lot of that leadership for me, which is great.
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:28.480
Um, but yeah, the the flow kind of went from us realizing there's more than us just um creating these processes to to resell payments, that it was going to become bigger.
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:34.160
And that's when we we decided we needed to start hiring more and building more of a dedicated technical engineering team.
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.279
Um so that started a couple of years ago.
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:43.440
Um, and so we've got a team now of about 10 engineers that that um that our BP of engineering leads.
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.200
Um and so we're very much partners in in figuring out how these solutions work.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:49.599
Um so we've kind of scaled that up over time.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:56.240
Personally, I am still getting in and doing code fixes almost every single day or um working on new features.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:06.240
Um again, it's a little bit of the the um the things that maybe are things we want to do quickly that I know how to do from the technology that we we started with that I can do much faster than others.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.640
Um so sometimes I'll I'll jump in and do things, but I'm kind of in there every day.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:21.119
Uh and honestly, it's something I struggle with of like how do I get myself leveled up to be thinking about the bigger picture of the product uh and spend a little bit of less time down in the weeds.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:41.839
And I think that's a bit of a pitfall of both um that you can fall into of kind of the no-code world and now um developing with LLMs and things like that, is that um you can get deep into it and you can build a bunch of great things, but the deeper you're thinking about the software and how every little little thing works, that's less time you have to think about the big picture.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.319
Um so yeah, I've been been doing a bit to try to separate things out.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.319
I do things with time management really to to create focus blocks for myself.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.839
Um, but yes, it very much is something that um that I need to pull myself out of a little bit, I'd say.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:54.400
Yeah.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:17.039
This is something I think about a lot too, because Zano, you know, as an infrastructure uh provider, it's like I have to obviously be a level up running the business, but I also have to be enough in the weeds to like know what I am saying and talking about as people have questions or considering us, and to understand like the DNA of what the platform is.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:30.720
So it's like a very hard balance because if you are too far removed, uh it almost feels like I, you know, you're completely disconnected from what the product is evolving into and you can't infuse your spirit and intention into it.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:36.079
Um, but if you are too in the weeds, then you're not focusing on the future and where you're trying to take the business.
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:37.599
And you're a founder, right?
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.160
I'm a founder, like that's what you want to do.
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.319
You want to get in there and you want to build it and you want to know what's going on.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.720
And so there's there's a bit of that pull to it, right?
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:45.920
That you sometimes have to resist.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.400
So uh yeah, it's very interesting to balance.
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.440
And yeah, the the I don't know how what what things do you do to balance that?
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:52.000
I'm curious.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:59.119
Like uh Yeah, I have really tried uh to put the right people in place.
00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:15.839
I mean, I think it all really comes uh or comes down to team building and making sure that you have the right people in place that have the same culture, they're aligned with the mission, and they understand, like, and they're they're very communicative with you around how they're gonna shape and take the product.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:21.599
I am still currently in the daily engineering sinks because I want to know what is going on.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.440
It's very important for me to do that.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:40.079
However, I don't have to be, but it it does serve me well because when I'm speaking, for example, to uh potential customers, especially like uh when we're, you know, we're a technical product, you're selling to engineers and people that actually want to challenge, uh challenge you.
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:48.160
If you if I uh can't speak at their level, you know, they call BS faster than any other buyer really in the market today.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.039
So I think that for me, that is important.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:00.240
Uh so I have made a conscious effort to, yes, I I spend a the majority, if it's an 80-20 rule, 80% of my time like on the business.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:06.640
Um, and but the inside of the code base and in the business understanding the nuances, that's like probably the 20% time.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.079
And I still don't know the answer.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:13.440
So I like I'm not sure that that that's the right balance, but for me, that's what's working so far.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:13.920
Yeah.
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.680
I think I'm at like 60-40 now.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:16.799
So trying to work my way up.
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:18.400
I'll get to eight to this one day.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:19.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.119
We'll uh we'll get there one day.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:31.279
I'm curious, like as you think about team building and people building, um, you know, I kind of mentioned my philosophy around having kind of culturally aligned people.
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:44.559
How have you thought about building the team, especially kind of in a world where you now are hiring people in the age of AI where you might have more leverage uh than you did before and you may not need certain roles anymore?
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.440
How are you thinking about company building in that way?
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:49.039
Um, it's a good question.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:55.119
I I think a lot of what you you stated aligns really well around having people with the right culture.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.839
Um one thing that we've done here intentionally is a little against the grain, though.
00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:02.640
I think things are coming back is we have a in an office culture.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.440
So we um made an investment to create an office.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:08.480
Folks come in here four days a week uh at least.
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:14.079
And and um so we want people that that want to interact and help build a business in person.
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:15.440
So that's really important to us.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.200
Um I think a lot of things happen.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.839
I know there's a lot of great technology and in ways that you can you can work remotely.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:29.519
Um I think for us, as we're a growing business and we're small and we're trying to build some of that culture, a lot of that just works so much better when you're in person.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.039
So um looking for people that want to do that um is really important.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:49.279
Um secondly, I think when you're a small business, like every incremental hire is so critical and it's so critical to get it right and know that they're gonna be a good fit, that they've got the skills that that you think they have, um, that they are um well aligned to the culture that you're building.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:54.160
Um, so a lot of the team that we have are folks that we all we all know and have have worked with in the past.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:55.519
Um so we've been lucky.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:02.880
I think probably eight out of 11 of our engineers are are folks that either I've worked with or someone on the team has worked with in the past.
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:07.200
Um so that helps you um prevent you from from having a miss.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.920
And a miss at this level can be can be really, really detractable from the the business, right?
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:13.599
Uh so that's really important.
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:17.200
Um so that's about culture and kind of how we find people and what we look for.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:20.079
Um as far as like the team is structured.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:29.440
I wouldn't say we did this purposefully because of um things happening with AI, but but we are focusing more on hiring senior engineers.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:36.079
Our team is all senior, all folks with you know at least 10 years of experience, not a not a hard rule, but just need to be be good and know what they're doing.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:48.160
Um I've found in general, like we don't have time to like be writing down very, very specific uh requirements, documents, laying out um technical solutions and laying out complete architecture for folks.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:54.480
By having a senior team, you can kind of lay out like what you want to accomplish, and you've got more of a partner in trying to build the right solution.
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.839
Um so we've started with with senior engineers, and that's that's really what we have.
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:05.359
And then as um things have been coming around, what we realize too is that the senior engineers are the types of folks that you want to have um using AI.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:11.440
They're the ones that know how to build large scalable systems that maintain uh and follow our compliance frameworks, right?
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:18.799
Ones that that can be you know have high throughput uh and the ability to really build things in in the right way that'll scale for us.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:29.119
Uh and so they're the folks that we think will be able to leverage AI and become much more efficient and and provide you know much more output for the single person.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:29.920
Yeah.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:35.839
And I mean, in general, like how do you think about leveraging AI at Choice Digital?
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:45.920
Is it something like that everyone is experimenting, they have their own whatever ChatGPT or Claude account, or is this something where you've built a framework around that everyone is following?
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:57.440
It's interesting timing that you bring it up because um up until uh actually up until now, it's kind of been everyone kind of doing doing what they want to do and experimenting a little bit with it.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:12.160
Um we are now in the process of kind of putting together an overall framework and an AI policy for ourselves, looking at getting uh choosing one of the providers and getting an enterprise agreement with them to kind of work with them and ensure our data is being held in the right way.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:20.319
Um but yeah, what I've really what we've really been seeing is you know engineers figuring out how they want to use it in the way that kind of accelerates them in the best way.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:31.119
Um, we're starting to do a bit of um kind of lunch and learns and sharing and and folks testing things out and saying, hey, here's a a new admin tool that we want to create.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:36.000
Um let's try to see what it would look like if we used cloud code and built it that way with guidance from an engineer.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.880
Like what would happen?
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:42.079
Um so beginning to figure out like what are the best ways to um to build that way for engineering.
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:50.160
Um as it comes to me and as it comes like to me and and the product team, we're really using it to help us a lot with with UI.
00:32:50.720 --> 00:33:14.000
Um we've found with Figma particularly, but I think with Claude, you can do this as well, is really uploading um a requirements document with the key capabilities you're looking to achieve, key user stories, and it does a great job of spinning out like a high fidelity prototype that you can then iterate on, make quick changes to it, make sure it aligns really well, and then have an engineer take that and implement it in our stack.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.720
So we found some um some success there.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:21.200
Um but overall, I guess I'm kind of getting off the topic of there, of putting together the overall things.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:22.240
Those are things people are doing.
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:24.960
People in our compliance seem to use it for documentation.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:29.200
Uh, folks in customer support are using it to automate some responses.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:35.119
Um, but to the the question you had, we're we're looking to basically create an overall policy and framework for our company.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:40.319
You know, basic things like never put customer data into an AI model, right?
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:40.640
Period.
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:40.799
Yeah.
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:42.720
Like it doesn't get uh things like that.
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:56.480
Uh we also try to focus on, I think it will end up in focusing more on can we use these tools to build deterministic processes that we know the outcome will be for now, and then maybe look at AI being the solution a little bit later.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.799
Um, I think particularly related to to finance and banks, they get a little queasy.
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:10.000
Um, and and I personally do as well, around um letting a an AI model come in and and provide you answers, but you're not quite sure what's happening there.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:15.199
So actually using it to create software, create repeatable processes is kind of where we're focusing a lot of things right now.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:16.000
Yeah.
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:17.039
That makes sense.
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.320
Who's leading that effort uh with Invoice Digital?
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:28.880
Uh so it's uh coming from the executive level, um, in that it's my myself and my two co-founders and basically the ELT is uh starting that.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:39.119
And then we have uh begun doing a set of surveys and we're gonna do some working groups with folks to to figure out how they're using AI and what they want to see out of it, and then um and then putting something together that way.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:50.880
Leveraging AI in a regulated space when you're building a product, like I'm sure you have to be a little bit more careful, not only just like don't you know put customer data in it, but don't build in this way.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:52.320
Don't touch these systems.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.599
There are things that I'm sure you have to be more thoughtful around, right?
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:56.159
Right.
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:56.719
Exactly.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:35:00.079
I think we're very much in the human human in the loop stage, right?
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:11.360
Like anything that is um being created via AI that's gonna go into our code base absolutely needs a human to review that and do a code review and make sure it looks good.
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:19.360
Um, similarly with any data that's going out to our customers, if you're using it for reporting or things like that, we really want to have a human taking a look at it.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:27.199
Um, and it's never really touching, like I said, personal data of our customers is something that that we're just not ready for yet.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:28.800
I think we may get there at some point.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:33.760
Um, but I think there's a lot more that we need to learn just to figure out like how is that going to fit within our business?
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.440
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:47.519
Um, I want to maybe go back to what you were saying in terms of like when you started Choice Digital, like starting in that co-working space and building the first working prototype in 30 days on bubble.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.880
Um, knowing everything that you know now, right?
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.480
What would you and especially the technology that we have today?
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:58.480
Let's say we have the technology of today, but you're starting at zero again.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:00.400
What would you do differently?
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:01.760
How would you approach things?
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:06.639
Having some breaks and some friction in being able to build a product is is actually important.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:13.039
You could go out and throw every kind of feature you want and have um have it automatically created by by an AI agent and have it all built up.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:16.719
But I think you're gonna result in some feature bloat and some things that might not be important.
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:21.440
It might make it harder for you to um understand what problem you're really solving for.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:25.920
And I think there's just a big risk of like, if you can create things so easily, like should you create things so easily?
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:27.599
Are you putting enough thought into how it all works?
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:33.440
So, how do we make sure we're not just creating feature bloat and creating a bunch of things that aren't necessary and that ultimately are harder to sell?
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.000
And how do you focus on the real core part of the product?
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:44.159
And I think the friction of even with no code and us having to be there for a month working on it is we had to really think about like what are the important features and things we're trying to build for our customers.
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.400
I think that's really good insight.
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:49.599
Uh, it almost feels like you can build too much today.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:57.599
And because you can build so much so so quickly, uh, you kind of lose sight into um what you should be building.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:07.920
I think sometimes you set off on a path and you get some traction with the product and you build for certain customers, and then you keep building and adding features because they're telling you to build.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:17.519
I think over time, you're like, okay, well, I'm generally headed in this direction, but what am I, what is the like, what is my ambition here for the company that I'm trying to build?
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:26.079
Like, what do I, where where do I really feel like we have leverage outside of all the other, for example, payment providers uh that exist out there today?
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:38.159
And then based on that, like really finding that ethos, how does that then impact what you are prioritizing in your build and what you are putting down because of it?
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:38.719
Right.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.920
Uh, we've had to go through that exercise, I think, a few times.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:49.360
And I think sometimes just standing still, and I think you were making this point earlier, like friction is a good thing sometimes, right?
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.639
Standing still and saying, wait a second, we're not the same company anymore.
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.360
For us, we're not the same note code company anymore.
00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:03.920
Note code has just been completely, at least how it was defined in 2010 when you started, is no longer in existence in a world with AI.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.400
So, in this new world, how do we define ourselves?
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:23.840
So, I'm wondering if you've gone through this moment in the past couple of years and if that has changed the way that you build and how you might advise other founders and builders, as they're just building and building and building, to take a pause, think through where they're going and how it informs uh what they actually put out into the world.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:32.320
And there were a few things that that were important to us that we laid out as kind of key principles for us as we as we started our business.
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:38.000
One of them, and and I guess it's a a bit of our mission, we always talk about it, but it's customers before economics.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:49.519
Um in fintech, particularly, there can be a lot of cases where you're charging a lot of fees to your customers or you're finding ways where you know maybe they don't know where all of their money is going, and that's how you make make your money.
00:38:49.760 --> 00:39:00.079
For us, that was always really important to make sure that like we're creating a product that helps people get their money and we're we're trying to get that money delivered to them and make it easy for them to spend.
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:03.599
We didn't talk about it a ton too, but we want to make sure we also have a bit of equity there.
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:10.079
Like there's a lot of underbanked and unbanked customers, making sure that we have ways for them to get access to their money and ultimately be able to spend it.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:17.119
So, like putting together that that North Star, that key mission of what you're trying to do, um, it's been really helpful for us.
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:24.719
So as we go through it and as we're making decisions, we have some, we also have some core values and other things that we might use to balance against decisions that we make.
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:39.599
Um, but ultimately, as you're you're looking at the product and you're you're beginning to define what are we going to build or how might we solve this problem or should we even solve this problem, kind of going back to one of the those core um mission statement that that you have is really important.
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:44.079
And sometimes we lay that over what we're doing to try to decide is this really, really something we should do.
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:51.519
Um so I think keeping keeping all of that in mind uh is really important as you as you make decisions about anything in your business.
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:58.800
Um so so there's there's that component of it and um and really just trying to everything back to that.
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:03.679
So as you as you think about what you're building, yeah, yeah, how does that how does that kind of go back?
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:05.039
Yeah.
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:29.519
Um the final question that I have is just around what you are excited about, you know, as you look at the future uh of choice digital, uh, where you want to take things, let's say in the next uh, you know, uh six to eight months, uh especially with the new technological innovations that not only you are introducing, but that the market is also uh making uh accessible to you.
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.840
Uh what are you thinking about?
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.519
What are you really excited about and what do you want to share with our audience?
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:36.159
Sure.
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:41.280
There's a there's a few things personally for us looking to um expand to more markets.
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.239
So we're gonna be looking at going international.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:51.119
Um we're already doing work in Canada, but looking to go to the EU and the UK um as well, doing some explorations there.
00:40:51.280 --> 00:41:03.440
That creates a whole new set of interesting technical problems around data residency, data sovereignty, privacy policies everywhere else, and those kinds of things, which are all becoming um much more complicated.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:07.440
And um, and each different jurisdiction has their own flavor on on how things work.
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:12.400
So getting really smart on that and figuring out how we can scale this business in the right way.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:22.239
Um, from a technology perspective and kind of kind of where things are going, I think ultimately, and it it's always the more things change, the more they stay the same.
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:36.639
But it's like how effectively can we get an idea that's in your mind or on a whiteboard or in a document as quickly and most efficiently into reality, but also in a way that's all the things we talked about, right?
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:41.280
Compliant, scalable, reliable, um, trustworthy, all of those things.
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:48.719
But like, like how do we do that as quickly as possible with as few like unnecessary cycles in the process?
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:58.800
So we're really looking at like, yeah, how can we take uh these changes in technology, the way that folks are building things, and how do we harness it in the right way to move us further forward?
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:00.239
Awesome.
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.719
Well, Mike, really appreciate the conversation.
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.400
I think that's a perfect place to end.
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:08.079
Um, where can people go to learn more about you and what you're doing?
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:13.760
Yeah, if you um have any needs around sending out payments to your customers, you can we'd be happy to talk.
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:17.920
Uh, you can go to choicedigital.com uh and and learn a bit about us there.
