WEBVTT
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Skiing technology is one challenge.
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Delivering consistently across dozens of hundred or hundreds of physical locations is another challenge altogether.
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Today I'm joined by Boris Bastner, founder and CEO of OKOS.
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He is entrepreneur joining his evolve from smart home energy efficiency and utility partnerships to technology-enabled enterprise security deployments across North America.
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We'll explore what it takes to turn field service into a repeatable operating system, standardizing quality, coordinating a distributed workforce using AI without losing accountability and recognizing when the next stage of growth requires a fundamental change in a business model.
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Welcome to Scaling with Clarity, Boris.
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Hi, thank you.
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So why don't you just give us a bit of a rundown or trip down memory?
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How did uh how did you start a business?
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Uh as I was preparing for the podcast, it seems like you started in home automation.
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Um, and obviously, majority of your customers now are enterprise.
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So, how did the business come about?
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Yeah, I first started the company six years ago, uh, really in the smart home space.
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So think about door locks, thermostats, uh sensors and units, and we did a lot of apartment uh retrofits and uh energy efficiency kind of deployments.
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As we grew and managed more and more of these clients uh and REITs and uh real estate developers, we had to find a solution for mass deployments, uh the ability to install thousands of these devices across North America uh without being necessarily on site, without having a foreman or project manager on site.
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And so we developed an app in-house to have full remote project management, remote diagnostics right in the app that uh allowed us to really install anywhere with uh local labor force.
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So we became more of a gig economy platform, uh at the Uber of installations, if you will, being able to deploy these technicians uh anywhere across the country um and oversee that quality and the uh tracking the speed of delivery and the quality of the installs.
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And as soon as COVID hit, and through that, the up and downs of COVID, uh unfortunately the residential market kind of dried down for us.
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It really dried up all of a sudden in one summer, and we had to pivot.
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And so we pivot to commercial security.
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We went all in uh mainly in security cameras, these same low voltage technicians on our app with the same app, with the same project managers, could now manage to install security cameras.
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And so far, we've installed over 60,000 devices uh all across North America, some in Europe.
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Uh we've really grown the company exponentially since our beginnings, but uh it's been a fun journey.
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So I'm curious.
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Um you're working with a very large distributed workforce.
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You mentioned 60,000 device installations, 750 certified technicians.
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How do you build?
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Well, obviously, the two the two questions for me top of mind is like, how do you ensure quality um when you work with a distributed workforce?
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And how do you build a consistent couch and standard of accountability amongst the all the technicians who are for you?
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They're not in the same office.
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Um and I mean, even in some cases, they may not even meet one another.
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No, exactly.
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Um, so we really went through technology, right?
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Tech-enabled services is uh the way to go when you want to ensure that consistent quality throughout.
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And so we break it down uh kind of an IKEA checklist, right?
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They have to follow the checklist.
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We break it down step by step by step.
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Uh now with the latest iterations of our app, uh we have AI nowadays, right?
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So we have AI quality control built in, the project manager can see exactly what's going on on the site, see if the cable is bent too much, see if the installation is proper or not.
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Uh referring back to uh the model and and in the AI just literally outlines what is wrong with an install, really reducing the revisit and uh time on site, even for the install.
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So, follow-up question.
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This the human in the loop, uh, the project manager, uh, this is a corporate employee that works for you, or is this uh again, like is it uh a contractor?
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And two, when when you're referring to AI, what is the AI scene?
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Are you uploading images?
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Is it like real-time video?
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Um, to be able to correct um, let's say, some kind of an impropriety you mentioned bent cable to ensure that the right angle is there, or whatever it might be.
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Exactly.
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So uh the first question.
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So, our technicians are all contractors, uh, that allows us the flexibility of being one week in one place and another week in another.
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There's projects all over the country.
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Sometimes they're busy in California, but the next week you're not, and so you want to uh pay your technicians well and generously for the time they are on the work, and when they don't, then you don't have any obligations when they're not working, right?
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And so those are all 1099s across the US, and then uh contractors here in Canada.
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In terms of the AI, uh, it really looks for anything outside industry standards, right?
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So we upload pictures as the technicians walks through a site and does his install in that checklist that he has to follow, right?
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It's a step-by-step.
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One step is to run your cable, then it's to do your cable test, then it's to plug in your camera, then it's like every single step of the way, we have picture evidence, which creates a very uh audit-friendly trail to uh our closeout reports, which we share with our clients.
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And so every client after the job sees exactly what went on and can refer back to that documentation uh if anything goes under warranty or any issues surface later on.
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Everything's documented when we're working on a site, uh and then the AI itself, yeah, it's it's picture-based.
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So every picture uploaded and ran through that.
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So you mentioned you want to pay your technicians really well.
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What audio incentive structures have you considered and put in place to improve the quality of this distributed field operations?
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I mean, the industry is pretty it's it's regulated, right?
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It's it's pretty um consistent on the professionals we're hiring, those technicians, and the expectations for those technicians.
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I mean, they install cameras every single week, right?
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They in, they out, so then they know how to to do their job.
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Uh for us, it's really just been to be on top of it.
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If you let it slide, if you don't see anything for a week, by the end of the week, you have no idea what you're getting into.
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But if we're constantly on top of a project, then we know the quality and what to expect.
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Makes sense, makes sense.
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Um you mentioned AI in terms of the the actual installs.
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Where else are you using AI in the business and in what capacity?
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Uh, we're doing AI for quotes, quote review for all the technical sides.
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Uh we have a model to kind of read through construction drawings, uh, do bids, do RFPs, right?
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Uh we use it in the office pretty much for every step of the process.
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And are you technical with background?
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Um, did did you gonna like who who's who's spear who is spearheading AI adoption within your company?
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Are you championing it from the top?
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Gonna like tell me how top yeah.
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I mean, uh I have more of a financial background and came from finance, but I've always had interest and uh was adept of technologies and and especially the the internet, right?
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At the very beginning, uh when I was a kid, I got a book, HTML for beginners, and went through the whole HTML, CSS, um, and then evolution of the web from static pages to what it is today.
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And so now in the company with AI, it's it's really been uh from management top-down approach, kind of pushing it through every step of the process, and it's really to show employees how it helps them, how it speeds up their processes and eliminates their manual parts.
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What has been the the biggest factor for their um adoption or embracing AI?
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I mean, you mentioned like obviously makes their job easier, faster, better, but like what like the the fearings that AI is gonna take my job, so kind of like how do you calm these fears?
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How do you how do you show them what's possible using AI?
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Yeah, we're in a very technical field.
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Uh however, there's still some boring manual work, right?
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If you have a construction plan with 360 cameras on an Air Force base, those are tiny triangles, and you need to count 360 tiny triangles.
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Uh, there's nothing technical to that.
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So you run AI, it tells you there's 360, you go from there, and it's way, way faster.
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You're still very engaged and involved as an employee with us, everything you bring your knowledge to, right?
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So there's still a lot of technical side that is uh dependent on people's knowledge and experiences.
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What I mean, speaking of experiences, uh, I'm I'm curious what happens if um the AI is providing one set of directions, and the human is like, no, that's that doesn't make sense, that's not correct.
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Uh we always ask our employees to double check that and technicians, right?
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It's always uh use your judgment.
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Uh so and that makes sense.
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You always want to have human in the loop.
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Um what so in in terms of um AI, what new risks introduce when an organization uses AI to direct work in a physical environment?
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Kind of like what what have been some of the aha moments for you?
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Uh in terms of risk, uh yeah, risk physical environment.
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Yeah, um there's a liability, of course, right?
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We're doing we're we're doing life safety.
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So if you're doing uh a fire sprinkler job and uh the AI tells you to do one thing, which is not up to code, then that's up to you know, we still need engineers to double check everything and and uh stamp everything on the field itself.
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I mean, we're not depending on on AI necessarily on the field uh to base their decision making, it's more of a helper.
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So just use it for the the comments and kind of the the helper along the way rather than replacing their job or anything.
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So speaking of job replacement, I mean obviously AI first came for the jobs of the white-collar workers, but they're all of these physical AI companies that they're in robotic farms that they're heavily going after the blue collar work.
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Um what is your take on it?
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I think it really opens up a lot of the market, right?
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Our industry, for example, so talking about low voltage technicians, security technicians, right?
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Uh this is highly in demand and understaffed.
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Uh, you look at a lot of the large national integrators, uh, national uh service firms, they'll have 300, 400 open postings for jobs for this uh uh sector.
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So we're in a labor shortage.
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With our solution, with what we're doing, we're kind of opening that up to more and more people.
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We're opening it up to uh you don't necessarily need to know everything to install it first because you have your step-by-step, you have your AI assistant, you have really uh someone holding in your hand as you're doing it.
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So it opens it up to more of a handyman kind of level rather than an advanced uh certified technician level.
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Um, we're not quite there yet, right?
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Right now we're still highly specialized and trained, and we're using certified technicians and uh our jobs, but that's the future of it is really opening it up to a broader um job market and really getting more people into the industry and helping more people get jobs.
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So actually increasing the total jobs by humans, not decreasing it.
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Would you say that this has been uh uh a key unlock for you being able to attract uh perhaps underemployed people to do the work uh rather than competing with uh with existing companies that uh already have uh or seeking technicians?
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Yeah, as I said, like in the process, we're not there yet.
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Uh the benefits we did see now and really uh take advantage of is the gig economy model, right?
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So comparing to the larger integrator that offer full-time employment, and you're stuck with that usual uh job, usually lower wages uh as a full-time worker, we offer the flexibility uh to work when you want.
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We offer like higher pay per hour, um, but as an independent contractor.
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And a lot of the guys working for us actually do have full-time jobs with the big national guys, uh, but we offer that flexibility, right?
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The flexibility of earning more on the side and the similarly to Uber or or delivering on food uh apps, right?
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It's but a highly rewarded and technical job that they like to do.
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What um what have be what has been the um the biggest challenge to date in terms of scaling the company and and yeah, let's let's give the questions brief.
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Yeah.
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Right now we've been having more demand than what we could supply, right?
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It's been a crazy industry.
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Uh we work with data centers, the hyperscalers, we work in retail and restaurants, and a lot of these industries that are just massive, massive.
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Um we've been restrained in our growth by our capacity to hire more people, grow more with the capital uh resources needed.
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Uh, we spent a lot of time building out processes and building out our app and and everything to allow us to scale.
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And I think we're right there at that this moment where we're ready to scale.
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Uh but it we did experience a lot of resource restraints uh for scaling.
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And we're still growing year over year, but it's been yeah, mainly on uh just having the resources to grow.
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And we're always uh purely speaking about fine uh human resources, human and financial resources, technology resources, kind of like how would you define it?
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Mainly uh financial and human.
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What's um on the financial side, what has been the like or it is there a cost that you underestimated or like I mean you're cavalry-based, but majority of your work is in US.
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Uh kind of entering this market, has there been like an aha moment?
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Um did you underestimate the the complexity or maybe the ease with which it is to enter the US market?
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Kind of like what has been your experience?
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Uh getting into the US market was actually it was pretty easy, actually.
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So surprisingly, uh over there, like just selling seems to be easier, uh, the opportunities are bigger, and they just have uh more eager to try out new things, and Canada seems very conservative on that.
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Why is why do you think that is the case?
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Why is Canada conservative?
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I think it roots from all the way back and then our banking system and governments and how it's still operating today, where yeah, they're they're very, very conservative and slow to adopt new technologies.
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I'm curious um when uh uh because I mean obviously you you you hear that this rhetoric and and I've observed it too.
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Um a lot of Canadian companies kind of focus on Canada rather than treating Canada just as the pilot and focusing on export markets.
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Um how should founders think about growth, uh expansions, new geographies, what's required to succeed, who are more founders, Canadian founders, not more aggressive about uh you know driving business across the border?
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I don't know.
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I don't know it's I mean for me it took what half an hour to incorporate in Delaware online.
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You go through Stripe or whichever cheap incorporation uh website that you can find.
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Yeah, 500 bucks.
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You have a company, and then file your taxes every year for a few thousand dollars.
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That's really it.
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They have free bank accounts, free wires, free ACA, everything's uh more competitive there.
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Um and once you're up and going, you can operate out everything from here in Canada.
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Yeah, the clients are larger, bigger budgets, 10 times the population, right?
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And and the way less whisker, so ready to try stuff.
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I agree.
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Have there been any contracts um kind of going into the states?
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Because you mentioned the the contracts are bigger.
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I mean, obviously population size 10 times, I mean, yeah, it's 10 times bigger than Canada.
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Have there been any contracts that on the surface look very, very attractive, strategic, but you declined because uh I don't know, economics or printing conditions or liability, like something just was not right.
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Uh for us it's been mainly, you know, on the financials.
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Sometimes some larger companies know they're large and they can get pretty aggressive on the terms.
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Yeah, uh don't do a deal at 120-day payment terms, yeah, that will kill your cash flow and kill your business.
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Yeah.
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So uh they'll try that, but uh push back.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So what do you if from your perspective, Boris, what do you think have been the biggest unlocks uh in terms of um your growth?
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Uh you you mentioned technology, um but like like if if you were to rank stack like top five factors for your success and growth, what would they be?
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Know how to sell, know what you're selling, right?
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It took a while for us to know.
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Exactly what we're selling.
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And as we pivoted to the security industry, originally, you know, you're you're trying to sell a camera, you're trying to sell a sense of feeling secure or whatever it is.
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And that wasn't our market fit.
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Way too much competition.
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There's anyone with the pickup truck and the ladder can install a camera.
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Where we found our fit is we enable large deployments.
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We can install a thousand locations.
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You have 10,000 restaurants, we can install them.
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Whereas the guy in the pickup truck can't do that, right?
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So we really found our fit and where it clicked with customers.
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And also as soon as you get one or two done, then you have your proof.
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You have your market established, and then everything snowballs from there.
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I get that, but but you don't get the 750 installers overnight.
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So kind of like walk me through your journey of I don't know, this is one to ten, ten to a hundred, a hundred to seven, hundred and fifty.
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What have been kind of like the yeah, we we started on a job-by-job uh process, and then the technicians, I mean, they grow as our demand grows.
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So if we had a team in California, we grew a team in California, then Texas, then New York, and then it just added up that we're in every single state.
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But it's really been growing after customer demand.
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Yeah.
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Don't grow too fast, follow your client.
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Do you do you leverage partnerships and channel strategy?
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Like what's your go-to-market?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Go to market.
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Uh a lot of our business comes from manufacturers, right?
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So they do hardware, but they won't touch the install.
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But every time they sell a hardware, someone needs to install it.
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So if you're that guy, the they'll keep bringing more and more jobs to you.
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And as long as you do a good job, then they start uh really liking you more.
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Um, so that's been really good.
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And then to end customers, it's mainly been trade shows, conferences, or shaking hands, seeing them in person, going to their offices, meeting in person.
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Uh it's in the states.
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Well, you need to fly down and go to the states.
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Yeah.
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What what would you say relationships are built in person?
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:37.200
Oh, yeah, definitely.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.720
So I mean, obviously, you you're building a very successful business.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:50.240
What have been your founder and leadership lessons as you've scaled the company?
00:24:54.079 --> 00:25:02.400
Um particular you want more focus?
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:04.400
I mean, a lot of happens in six years.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.880
I I'm I'm I'm just I'm just curious.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:09.599
I mean, uh you and I are part of VMSA.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:11.920
Um, you you coach founders.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:18.480
Um so what have been kind of like the the pivotal moments for you in terms of your leadership journey?
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:21.920
I mean, you'll always need to deal with people, right?
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.839
You're not getting away from that either.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:27.839
Even as a fellow founder, you need to sell, you need to deal with people.
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:41.279
Um so get used to that, get used to talking, get used to shaking hands, going to networking events, uh start local in your city, do every single networking event you can.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:46.960
Um, you know, and then you start traveling and going to the larger conferences.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:54.079
But it's really always been focused on the people, similar to employees, similar to our contractors, right?
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.279
Even 1099.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.680
They're not disposable, they're people.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:05.039
They have to feed their families and go back home and feed their kids, and so always value your people and they'll grow with you.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:06.480
Great.
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:08.960
This is in the agency of artists, absolutely.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:30.880
Um, given that we're both um Calgary-based, what have been the uh the networking events, organizations, associations, kind of like the channels that that you have found to be most effective in growing your brand, driving rich, building business?
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.480
Yeah, in Calgary in particular, the stampede is always good.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:40.240
There's a lot of corporate events during the stampede, and that will cross-reference multiple industries.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.759
So then you can have some with the BDC and the you know, more banking side.
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:51.599
You have some with lawyers and accountants, you have some more on you know, specific clients that you're targeting.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:27:00.240
If you're in real estate, there's events for real estate, and and you really target your industry, but also other industries and kind of cross multiple industries that way.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:06.480
Eventbrite has always been good finding events, uh and then trade shows, right?
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.079
Anything that's happening around the BMO center.
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:15.920
And uh, if you're ready to travel a bit, then there's always a good trade show somewhere going on.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.559
So if you want to stay busy.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:22.160
How do you make the most out of trade shows?
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.720
Do you like participate, exhibit?
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:27.119
What have you found to work?
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.599
Uh it's usually more on the networking side.
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.680
So meeting clients, meaning potential clients while you're there.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.599
It's a really good way to all be at the same place at the same time.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:44.319
So in my industry, for example, right, there's a big one in Vegas.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.799
Well, that week in Vegas, everyone's there.
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:52.240
Every single one of my clients, everyone I want to target and potential clients, they're all there.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:28:01.279
So then never eat alone, book all your meals with some uh partners and potential clients.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.319
Um and then enjoy your time there.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:14.640
Uh and again, it's not about just staying quiet in a corner taking notes about the conference talks or whatever.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:19.200
You need to talk to people, just talk around, work the room.
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:24.960
What's uh what's keeping you in Calgary rather than moving somewhere into the States?
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:27.839
My family's here.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:28.720
I'm Canadian.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:38.799
I mean, we've been we've developed this whole company as a remote project management business, so it's easy to manage from everywhere to anywhere.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.880
So that's the point.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.119
I mean, Canada's an amazing place.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:51.759
Um I personally lived here for nearly 30 years, and I can't say enough.
00:28:52.160 --> 00:29:02.799
Um curious, um, what is a lesson from building OKUS?
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:05.279
And by the way, is it OKUS?
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:05.920
OK.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:07.440
How do you pronounce OKOS?
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:16.319
So, what what is one lesson from building OKUS that applies to any founder whose product must ultimately be delivered in a physical world?
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:25.039
Um what what do you mean by that?
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:42.799
Like what like where I'm going is um a lot of the companies that go faster, typically a technology-based company or SaaS companies or AI companies, you're you're you're both, right?
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:47.200
Like you live in the digital and and the analog world in terms of the physical install.
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:58.480
So anything in particular that because you're we have this duality that that stands out in terms of a lesson that that a founder can take away from from what you've done.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:04.880
Yeah, I think if you're going into the real world, uh again, take care of your people, right?
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:18.400
You always will have a technician or uh some kind of labor force at the end of it, if it's dashers or uber drivers or whatever it is, uh, take care of them very well because you need both, right?
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.880
You need your clients on one side, it's a marketplace.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:25.200
You need clients on one side and then the supply on the other to supply that labor.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:26.160
Yeah.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.079
Okay, okay.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:36.079
Um, so my company focuses on on scaling, uh helping other founders scale.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:46.640
When founders say they are ready to scale, what evidence are you looking for inside the business to convince you that that uh that they're ready?
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.480
Market fit fit only metric.
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:58.559
You can be broke and you know have a solo founder or whatever.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:04.319
I don't care about the team, you're not growing the team 10x, you're growing your market 10x.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:17.279
And so if you have an actual demand, an actual MSA, or you know, you have a contract in front of you that says you need to deliver 10x what you did last year, well, that's your growth.
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.680
So I and I couldn't agree more.
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:29.359
I mean, but we say the same thing, like uh, and the reason why we work with scalp so not startup is is the same.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:38.000
Like we're looking for clear product market fit because then the business or the founder is ready to stand on the gas pedal and just accelerate.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:42.160
Um I I couldn't agree more with you there.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.039
Um, but product market fit or or market demand is is it's a journey.
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.440
Like uh the market doesn't stay still, stand still.
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.559
So um three years to find it, right?
00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:01.759
It took us three years, and as we started in the smart home space, and then it wasn't a fit, right?
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:03.440
There was no growth in there.
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:10.000
Uh not amazing margins, uh, it was a project-by-project basis.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:16.559
Yeah, it was uh saturated by very big players, so you get one or two of those big ones, but then what, right?
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:21.759
If you can get REITs onboarded, there's a limit of those players out there.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.720
Um so now that we've pivoted in the in the past three years, right?
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:31.759
That switch made a very, very clear market fit in demand.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:39.440
And now in our backlog, we have demand for 30x our current revenues in the next five years.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:46.400
Okay, uh what exploit is a little bit further, so I like I couldn't agree more.
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:50.400
Like you should always be looking um for the fit.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:33:00.559
Now, founders um struggle with familiarity bias, like it the things that you know you look for those technos to.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:10.000
Um, I mean, besides COVID, what prompted you to um to say this is not the industry for us?
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:18.000
Like it's too small, it's it's like they it's it's uh um populated with incumbent, it's uh it's a red ocean, we need to find a blue ocean.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:32.720
Kind of like how did you go through the through the through the what was your thought process in terms of um it and and the honesty that that you had with yourself uh in terms of determinants like no, we're gonna depart this industry and we're gonna focus on something new.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.279
To be honest, I was blind to it.
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.759
I didn't see it until it hit me with COVID and that kind of triggered everything.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:55.279
But yeah, going into it, growing into it, and then we had you know these uh large reads starting to be interested, and where all the talks and everything that they drag you along, and there's always a motion of this next deal, next deal, next deal.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.240
Uh so you're yeah, you're blind to it totally.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:08.719
What's the what is the hardest part of scaling that becomes obvious only after Grow has already arrived?
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:21.760
Yeah, I don't I don't know about that one in a clear example.
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.800
Okay, let's uh pivot to a different question.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.800
Can you finish this sentence?
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:33.199
A company has achieved clarity when it knows.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:42.639
Like I started the episode with when it knows what it's selling.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.280
I didn't know what I was selling until four years in, right?
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:58.079
I mean, the first three years was a different thing, and then we pivoted, and then the even the first year in the security industry, still then I didn't know what I was selling.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:07.119
You're not selling your features, you're not selling your app, you're not selling any shiny button you can create.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:14.239
It's really that result, that end result that the client is wanting that you're selling.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:19.679
Who does the selling of your company?
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.280
I mean, besides obviously, in the beginning it was all founder-led sales.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:34.800
Um now because still led with my kind of vision and push.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:49.039
Um and I still do a lot of it, and the and the especially the travel and the the face-to-face enterprise, more larger deal sales, uh deal flow.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:52.480
Makes sense.
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:57.679
Uh Boris, I I like to finish my interviews with a with a choice of questions.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:10.239
Um one, what is the best advice that you have ever received, or what is the nicest thing, or the kind, the kindest thing that anyone has ever done for you?
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.920
I think mentors has always been there along the way.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.639
Um, some are good, some are bad, right?
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:34.079
Some are greedy and wants a part of your company and ask for percentages and ask for retainers and ask for monthly payments, blah blah blah blah, can go down the list.
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:35.679
And I went through those, right?
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.320
Wasn't immune to that.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:42.000
Uh, but there's some people generally out there just to help.
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.239
And those are the people you need to find.
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:49.760
So finding a good mentor, uh, amazing.
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:54.559
Um any um any book, any final question?
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:56.239
Any books that you would recommend?
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:03.760
What's the I don't know, don't you don't even have to provide top three, but your favorite book that has helped you scale your business?
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:14.400
Um there's emotional intelligence behaviors by Sandra Jessup.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.840
Okay, that's been pretty good.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:22.480
Um, okay for all vetery valore.
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:26.159
Again, going back to people, right?
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:36.960
Know how to manage your people, manage expectations for your people, and then uh one last one.
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:41.760
I would say prep, push, pivot, really going through pivots.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.840
The only way your startup will succeed is by pivoting.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.320
If you don't pivot quick enough, agree, uh agreed, agreed.
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:52.719
Um, I I I couldn't agree more with you.
00:37:52.800 --> 00:38:12.800
I mean, like uh in particular the OKR objectives and Q results, like this was obviously um Intel's brainchild, and now it's adopted by all technology companies, but I can't tell you how how rarely do I see OKRs in uh in big companies.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:18.880
Um you would see some form of goals and cascading goals, uh, but but never OKRs.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:48.639
Um we are uh we're massive fans of the Atlas and Switter projects because we for for ourselves, but also for our companies and clients, um, because we say use use your Jira for project management, use your atlas for your goals, use your conference for communication, make sure that everything is uh all integrated so that you can have a clear line of sight in terms of like where am I going and how am I doing in terms of achieving the the DM goal.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:53.440
Yeah, um I just want to say thank you for your time.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:58.800
Um, enjoyed having you on the pod and getting you insights in terms of how you scale the whole cost.
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:01.519
So, best of luck in the journey ahead.
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:02.800
Thank you so much.
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:04.239
Thanks, Boris.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:05.599
Thanks, have a great day.
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:06.079
Bye bye.
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:06.960
Yeah.
00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.880
Skiing technology is one challenge.
00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:17.839
Delivering consistently across dozens of hundred or hundreds of physical locations is another challenge altogether.
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.640
Today I'm joined by Boris Bastner, founder and CEO of OKOS.
00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:33.359
He is entrepreneur joining his evolve from smart home energy efficiency and utility partnerships to technology-enabled enterprise security deployments across North America.
00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:51.840
We'll explore what it takes to turn field service into a repeatable operating system, standardizing quality, coordinating a distributed workforce using AI without losing accountability and recognizing when the next stage of growth requires a fundamental change in a business model.
00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:54.640
Welcome to Scaling with Clarity, Boris.
00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:56.320
Hi, thank you.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:02.560
So why don't you just give us a bit of a rundown or trip down memory?
00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:05.040
How did uh how did you start a business?
00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:09.840
Uh as I was preparing for the podcast, it seems like you started in home automation.
00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:14.640
Um, and obviously, majority of your customers now are enterprise.
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:17.120
So, how did the business come about?
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:23.120
Yeah, I first started the company six years ago, uh, really in the smart home space.
00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:36.000
So think about door locks, thermostats, uh sensors and units, and we did a lot of apartment uh retrofits and uh energy efficiency kind of deployments.
00:01:36.480 --> 00:02:04.239
As we grew and managed more and more of these clients uh and REITs and uh real estate developers, we had to find a solution for mass deployments, uh the ability to install thousands of these devices across North America uh without being necessarily on site, without having a foreman or project manager on site.
00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:21.680
And so we developed an app in-house to have full remote project management, remote diagnostics right in the app that uh allowed us to really install anywhere with uh local labor force.
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:45.199
So we became more of a gig economy platform, uh at the Uber of installations, if you will, being able to deploy these technicians uh anywhere across the country um and oversee that quality and the uh tracking the speed of delivery and the quality of the installs.
00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:57.840
And as soon as COVID hit, and through that, the up and downs of COVID, uh unfortunately the residential market kind of dried down for us.
00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.120
It really dried up all of a sudden in one summer, and we had to pivot.
00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.400
And so we pivot to commercial security.
00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:18.400
We went all in uh mainly in security cameras, these same low voltage technicians on our app with the same app, with the same project managers, could now manage to install security cameras.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:25.759
And so far, we've installed over 60,000 devices uh all across North America, some in Europe.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:34.479
Uh we've really grown the company exponentially since our beginnings, but uh it's been a fun journey.
00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.639
So I'm curious.
00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:43.439
Um you're working with a very large distributed workforce.
00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:49.280
You mentioned 60,000 device installations, 750 certified technicians.
00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:50.960
How do you build?
00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:59.439
Well, obviously, the two the two questions for me top of mind is like, how do you ensure quality um when you work with a distributed workforce?
00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:06.000
And how do you build a consistent couch and standard of accountability amongst the all the technicians who are for you?
00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:07.759
They're not in the same office.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.680
Um and I mean, even in some cases, they may not even meet one another.
00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:13.280
No, exactly.
00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:16.959
Um, so we really went through technology, right?
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:24.639
Tech-enabled services is uh the way to go when you want to ensure that consistent quality throughout.
00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:29.600
And so we break it down uh kind of an IKEA checklist, right?
00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:31.279
They have to follow the checklist.
00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.560
We break it down step by step by step.
00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:39.920
Uh now with the latest iterations of our app, uh we have AI nowadays, right?
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:50.160
So we have AI quality control built in, the project manager can see exactly what's going on on the site, see if the cable is bent too much, see if the installation is proper or not.
00:04:50.480 --> 00:05:06.399
Uh referring back to uh the model and and in the AI just literally outlines what is wrong with an install, really reducing the revisit and uh time on site, even for the install.
00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:11.439
So, follow-up question.
00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:21.920
This the human in the loop, uh, the project manager, uh, this is a corporate employee that works for you, or is this uh again, like is it uh a contractor?
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:27.439
And two, when when you're referring to AI, what is the AI scene?
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:29.199
Are you uploading images?
00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:30.959
Is it like real-time video?
00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:41.279
Um, to be able to correct um, let's say, some kind of an impropriety you mentioned bent cable to ensure that the right angle is there, or whatever it might be.
00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:42.160
Exactly.
00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:43.680
So uh the first question.
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:51.439
So, our technicians are all contractors, uh, that allows us the flexibility of being one week in one place and another week in another.
00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:53.439
There's projects all over the country.
00:05:53.519 --> 00:06:09.360
Sometimes they're busy in California, but the next week you're not, and so you want to uh pay your technicians well and generously for the time they are on the work, and when they don't, then you don't have any obligations when they're not working, right?
00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:15.920
And so those are all 1099s across the US, and then uh contractors here in Canada.
00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:26.079
In terms of the AI, uh, it really looks for anything outside industry standards, right?
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:34.720
So we upload pictures as the technicians walks through a site and does his install in that checklist that he has to follow, right?
00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:35.839
It's a step-by-step.
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:57.040
One step is to run your cable, then it's to do your cable test, then it's to plug in your camera, then it's like every single step of the way, we have picture evidence, which creates a very uh audit-friendly trail to uh our closeout reports, which we share with our clients.
00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:08.879
And so every client after the job sees exactly what went on and can refer back to that documentation uh if anything goes under warranty or any issues surface later on.
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:16.079
Everything's documented when we're working on a site, uh and then the AI itself, yeah, it's it's picture-based.
00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.439
So every picture uploaded and ran through that.
00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.759
So you mentioned you want to pay your technicians really well.
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:32.560
What audio incentive structures have you considered and put in place to improve the quality of this distributed field operations?
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:39.040
I mean, the industry is pretty it's it's regulated, right?
00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:49.439
It's it's pretty um consistent on the professionals we're hiring, those technicians, and the expectations for those technicians.
00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:53.040
I mean, they install cameras every single week, right?
00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:56.560
They in, they out, so then they know how to to do their job.
00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.160
Uh for us, it's really just been to be on top of it.
00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:06.639
If you let it slide, if you don't see anything for a week, by the end of the week, you have no idea what you're getting into.
00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:13.600
But if we're constantly on top of a project, then we know the quality and what to expect.
00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:15.519
Makes sense, makes sense.
00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:21.920
Um you mentioned AI in terms of the the actual installs.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:26.879
Where else are you using AI in the business and in what capacity?
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:34.720
Uh, we're doing AI for quotes, quote review for all the technical sides.
00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:43.200
Uh we have a model to kind of read through construction drawings, uh, do bids, do RFPs, right?
00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:48.639
Uh we use it in the office pretty much for every step of the process.
00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:53.759
And are you technical with background?
00:08:54.080 --> 00:09:02.080
Um, did did you gonna like who who's who's spear who is spearheading AI adoption within your company?
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:03.600
Are you championing it from the top?
00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:05.840
Gonna like tell me how top yeah.
00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:20.399
I mean, uh I have more of a financial background and came from finance, but I've always had interest and uh was adept of technologies and and especially the the internet, right?
00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:35.600
At the very beginning, uh when I was a kid, I got a book, HTML for beginners, and went through the whole HTML, CSS, um, and then evolution of the web from static pages to what it is today.
00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:57.120
And so now in the company with AI, it's it's really been uh from management top-down approach, kind of pushing it through every step of the process, and it's really to show employees how it helps them, how it speeds up their processes and eliminates their manual parts.
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:04.159
What has been the the biggest factor for their um adoption or embracing AI?
00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:15.039
I mean, you mentioned like obviously makes their job easier, faster, better, but like what like the the fearings that AI is gonna take my job, so kind of like how do you calm these fears?
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.960
How do you how do you show them what's possible using AI?
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:21.759
Yeah, we're in a very technical field.
00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.120
Uh however, there's still some boring manual work, right?
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:35.759
If you have a construction plan with 360 cameras on an Air Force base, those are tiny triangles, and you need to count 360 tiny triangles.
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.399
Uh, there's nothing technical to that.
00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:45.039
So you run AI, it tells you there's 360, you go from there, and it's way, way faster.
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:52.879
You're still very engaged and involved as an employee with us, everything you bring your knowledge to, right?
00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:59.440
So there's still a lot of technical side that is uh dependent on people's knowledge and experiences.
00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:15.279
What I mean, speaking of experiences, uh, I'm I'm curious what happens if um the AI is providing one set of directions, and the human is like, no, that's that doesn't make sense, that's not correct.
00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:21.200
Uh we always ask our employees to double check that and technicians, right?
00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.799
It's always uh use your judgment.
00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:32.480
Uh so and that makes sense.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.399
You always want to have human in the loop.
00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:45.360
Um what so in in terms of um AI, what new risks introduce when an organization uses AI to direct work in a physical environment?
00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:49.919
Kind of like what what have been some of the aha moments for you?
00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:56.879
Uh in terms of risk, uh yeah, risk physical environment.
00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:02.159
Yeah, um there's a liability, of course, right?
00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:04.639
We're doing we're we're doing life safety.
00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:21.120
So if you're doing uh a fire sprinkler job and uh the AI tells you to do one thing, which is not up to code, then that's up to you know, we still need engineers to double check everything and and uh stamp everything on the field itself.
00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:31.759
I mean, we're not depending on on AI necessarily on the field uh to base their decision making, it's more of a helper.
00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:41.759
So just use it for the the comments and kind of the the helper along the way rather than replacing their job or anything.
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:57.679
So speaking of job replacement, I mean obviously AI first came for the jobs of the white-collar workers, but they're all of these physical AI companies that they're in robotic farms that they're heavily going after the blue collar work.
00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:00.639
Um what is your take on it?
00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.759
I think it really opens up a lot of the market, right?
00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:12.559
Our industry, for example, so talking about low voltage technicians, security technicians, right?
00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.799
Uh this is highly in demand and understaffed.
00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:33.919
Uh, you look at a lot of the large national integrators, uh, national uh service firms, they'll have 300, 400 open postings for jobs for this uh uh sector.
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.120
So we're in a labor shortage.
00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:42.720
With our solution, with what we're doing, we're kind of opening that up to more and more people.
00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:56.559
We're opening it up to uh you don't necessarily need to know everything to install it first because you have your step-by-step, you have your AI assistant, you have really uh someone holding in your hand as you're doing it.
00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:05.919
So it opens it up to more of a handyman kind of level rather than an advanced uh certified technician level.
00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:08.799
Um, we're not quite there yet, right?
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:31.200
Right now we're still highly specialized and trained, and we're using certified technicians and uh our jobs, but that's the future of it is really opening it up to a broader um job market and really getting more people into the industry and helping more people get jobs.
00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.759
So actually increasing the total jobs by humans, not decreasing it.
00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:59.840
Would you say that this has been uh uh a key unlock for you being able to attract uh perhaps underemployed people to do the work uh rather than competing with uh with existing companies that uh already have uh or seeking technicians?
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.399
Yeah, as I said, like in the process, we're not there yet.
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:12.960
Uh the benefits we did see now and really uh take advantage of is the gig economy model, right?
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:31.039
So comparing to the larger integrator that offer full-time employment, and you're stuck with that usual uh job, usually lower wages uh as a full-time worker, we offer the flexibility uh to work when you want.
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:37.360
We offer like higher pay per hour, um, but as an independent contractor.
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:47.200
And a lot of the guys working for us actually do have full-time jobs with the big national guys, uh, but we offer that flexibility, right?
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:56.159
The flexibility of earning more on the side and the similarly to Uber or or delivering on food uh apps, right?
00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:01.919
It's but a highly rewarded and technical job that they like to do.
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:20.240
What um what have be what has been the um the biggest challenge to date in terms of scaling the company and and yeah, let's let's give the questions brief.
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:21.039
Yeah.
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:26.000
Right now we've been having more demand than what we could supply, right?
00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.320
It's been a crazy industry.
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:38.639
Uh we work with data centers, the hyperscalers, we work in retail and restaurants, and a lot of these industries that are just massive, massive.
00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:50.320
Um we've been restrained in our growth by our capacity to hire more people, grow more with the capital uh resources needed.
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:58.320
Uh, we spent a lot of time building out processes and building out our app and and everything to allow us to scale.
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.879
And I think we're right there at that this moment where we're ready to scale.
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:10.799
Uh but it we did experience a lot of resource restraints uh for scaling.
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:19.680
And we're still growing year over year, but it's been yeah, mainly on uh just having the resources to grow.
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:31.920
And we're always uh purely speaking about fine uh human resources, human and financial resources, technology resources, kind of like how would you define it?
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:35.759
Mainly uh financial and human.
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:56.480
What's um on the financial side, what has been the like or it is there a cost that you underestimated or like I mean you're cavalry-based, but majority of your work is in US.
00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:59.920
Uh kind of entering this market, has there been like an aha moment?
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:06.960
Um did you underestimate the the complexity or maybe the ease with which it is to enter the US market?
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.200
Kind of like what has been your experience?
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:16.880
Uh getting into the US market was actually it was pretty easy, actually.
00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:35.359
So surprisingly, uh over there, like just selling seems to be easier, uh, the opportunities are bigger, and they just have uh more eager to try out new things, and Canada seems very conservative on that.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:39.039
Why is why do you think that is the case?
00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.279
Why is Canada conservative?
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:59.359
I think it roots from all the way back and then our banking system and governments and how it's still operating today, where yeah, they're they're very, very conservative and slow to adopt new technologies.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:15.359
I'm curious um when uh uh because I mean obviously you you you hear that this rhetoric and and I've observed it too.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:24.079
Um a lot of Canadian companies kind of focus on Canada rather than treating Canada just as the pilot and focusing on export markets.
00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:45.039
Um how should founders think about growth, uh expansions, new geographies, what's required to succeed, who are more founders, Canadian founders, not more aggressive about uh you know driving business across the border?
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:46.640
I don't know.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:53.680
I don't know it's I mean for me it took what half an hour to incorporate in Delaware online.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:20:01.759
You go through Stripe or whichever cheap incorporation uh website that you can find.
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:03.039
Yeah, 500 bucks.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:09.119
You have a company, and then file your taxes every year for a few thousand dollars.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:10.720
That's really it.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:18.079
They have free bank accounts, free wires, free ACA, everything's uh more competitive there.
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:24.160
Um and once you're up and going, you can operate out everything from here in Canada.
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:31.839
Yeah, the clients are larger, bigger budgets, 10 times the population, right?
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:38.160
And and the way less whisker, so ready to try stuff.
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:41.680
I agree.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.039
Have there been any contracts um kind of going into the states?
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:48.720
Because you mentioned the the contracts are bigger.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:53.200
I mean, obviously population size 10 times, I mean, yeah, it's 10 times bigger than Canada.
00:20:53.279 --> 00:21:08.079
Have there been any contracts that on the surface look very, very attractive, strategic, but you declined because uh I don't know, economics or printing conditions or liability, like something just was not right.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:12.240
Uh for us it's been mainly, you know, on the financials.
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:18.160
Sometimes some larger companies know they're large and they can get pretty aggressive on the terms.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:25.200
Yeah, uh don't do a deal at 120-day payment terms, yeah, that will kill your cash flow and kill your business.
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:25.759
Yeah.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.319
So uh they'll try that, but uh push back.
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:31.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:41.759
So what do you if from your perspective, Boris, what do you think have been the biggest unlocks uh in terms of um your growth?
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:53.440
Uh you you mentioned technology, um but like like if if you were to rank stack like top five factors for your success and growth, what would they be?
00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:58.559
Know how to sell, know what you're selling, right?
00:21:58.640 --> 00:21:59.599
It took a while for us to know.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.279
Exactly what we're selling.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:14.400
And as we pivoted to the security industry, originally, you know, you're you're trying to sell a camera, you're trying to sell a sense of feeling secure or whatever it is.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.759
And that wasn't our market fit.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.359
Way too much competition.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.880
There's anyone with the pickup truck and the ladder can install a camera.
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:30.000
Where we found our fit is we enable large deployments.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.799
We can install a thousand locations.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.680
You have 10,000 restaurants, we can install them.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:39.200
Whereas the guy in the pickup truck can't do that, right?
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:43.839
So we really found our fit and where it clicked with customers.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:48.319
And also as soon as you get one or two done, then you have your proof.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:53.200
You have your market established, and then everything snowballs from there.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:58.160
I get that, but but you don't get the 750 installers overnight.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:06.799
So kind of like walk me through your journey of I don't know, this is one to ten, ten to a hundred, a hundred to seven, hundred and fifty.
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:18.640
What have been kind of like the yeah, we we started on a job-by-job uh process, and then the technicians, I mean, they grow as our demand grows.
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:25.839
So if we had a team in California, we grew a team in California, then Texas, then New York, and then it just added up that we're in every single state.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:31.440
But it's really been growing after customer demand.
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:32.000
Yeah.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.039
Don't grow too fast, follow your client.
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:43.119
Do you do you leverage partnerships and channel strategy?
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:45.440
Like what's your go-to-market?
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:46.400
Yeah.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:46.640
Yeah.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:46.960
Yeah.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:47.920
Go to market.
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.440
Uh a lot of our business comes from manufacturers, right?
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.319
So they do hardware, but they won't touch the install.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:57.759
But every time they sell a hardware, someone needs to install it.
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.640
So if you're that guy, the they'll keep bringing more and more jobs to you.
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:07.680
And as long as you do a good job, then they start uh really liking you more.
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:10.960
Um, so that's been really good.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:21.759
And then to end customers, it's mainly been trade shows, conferences, or shaking hands, seeing them in person, going to their offices, meeting in person.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:24.640
Uh it's in the states.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:27.599
Well, you need to fly down and go to the states.
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:30.079
Yeah.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:35.279
What what would you say relationships are built in person?
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:37.200
Oh, yeah, definitely.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.720
So I mean, obviously, you you're building a very successful business.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:50.240
What have been your founder and leadership lessons as you've scaled the company?
00:24:54.079 --> 00:25:02.400
Um particular you want more focus?
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:04.400
I mean, a lot of happens in six years.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.880
I I'm I'm I'm just I'm just curious.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:09.599
I mean, uh you and I are part of VMSA.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:11.920
Um, you you coach founders.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:18.480
Um so what have been kind of like the the pivotal moments for you in terms of your leadership journey?
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:21.920
I mean, you'll always need to deal with people, right?
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.839
You're not getting away from that either.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:27.839
Even as a fellow founder, you need to sell, you need to deal with people.
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:41.279
Um so get used to that, get used to talking, get used to shaking hands, going to networking events, uh start local in your city, do every single networking event you can.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:46.960
Um, you know, and then you start traveling and going to the larger conferences.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:54.079
But it's really always been focused on the people, similar to employees, similar to our contractors, right?
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.279
Even 1099.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.680
They're not disposable, they're people.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:05.039
They have to feed their families and go back home and feed their kids, and so always value your people and they'll grow with you.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:06.480
Great.
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:08.960
This is in the agency of artists, absolutely.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:30.880
Um, given that we're both um Calgary-based, what have been the uh the networking events, organizations, associations, kind of like the channels that that you have found to be most effective in growing your brand, driving rich, building business?
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.480
Yeah, in Calgary in particular, the stampede is always good.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:40.240
There's a lot of corporate events during the stampede, and that will cross-reference multiple industries.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.759
So then you can have some with the BDC and the you know, more banking side.
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:51.599
You have some with lawyers and accountants, you have some more on you know, specific clients that you're targeting.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:27:00.240
If you're in real estate, there's events for real estate, and and you really target your industry, but also other industries and kind of cross multiple industries that way.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:06.480
Eventbrite has always been good finding events, uh and then trade shows, right?
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.079
Anything that's happening around the BMO center.
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:15.920
And uh, if you're ready to travel a bit, then there's always a good trade show somewhere going on.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.559
So if you want to stay busy.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:22.160
How do you make the most out of trade shows?
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.720
Do you like participate, exhibit?
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:27.119
What have you found to work?
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.599
Uh it's usually more on the networking side.
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.680
So meeting clients, meaning potential clients while you're there.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.599
It's a really good way to all be at the same place at the same time.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:44.319
So in my industry, for example, right, there's a big one in Vegas.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.799
Well, that week in Vegas, everyone's there.
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:52.240
Every single one of my clients, everyone I want to target and potential clients, they're all there.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:28:01.279
So then never eat alone, book all your meals with some uh partners and potential clients.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.319
Um and then enjoy your time there.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:14.640
Uh and again, it's not about just staying quiet in a corner taking notes about the conference talks or whatever.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:19.200
You need to talk to people, just talk around, work the room.
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:24.960
What's uh what's keeping you in Calgary rather than moving somewhere into the States?
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:27.839
My family's here.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:28.720
I'm Canadian.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:38.799
I mean, we've been we've developed this whole company as a remote project management business, so it's easy to manage from everywhere to anywhere.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.880
So that's the point.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.119
I mean, Canada's an amazing place.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:51.759
Um I personally lived here for nearly 30 years, and I can't say enough.
00:28:52.160 --> 00:29:02.799
Um curious, um, what is a lesson from building OKUS?
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:05.279
And by the way, is it OKUS?
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:05.920
OK.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:07.440
How do you pronounce OKOS?
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:16.319
So, what what is one lesson from building OKUS that applies to any founder whose product must ultimately be delivered in a physical world?
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:25.039
Um what what do you mean by that?
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:42.799
Like what like where I'm going is um a lot of the companies that go faster, typically a technology-based company or SaaS companies or AI companies, you're you're you're both, right?
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:47.200
Like you live in the digital and and the analog world in terms of the physical install.
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:58.480
So anything in particular that because you're we have this duality that that stands out in terms of a lesson that that a founder can take away from from what you've done.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:04.880
Yeah, I think if you're going into the real world, uh again, take care of your people, right?
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:18.400
You always will have a technician or uh some kind of labor force at the end of it, if it's dashers or uber drivers or whatever it is, uh, take care of them very well because you need both, right?
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.880
You need your clients on one side, it's a marketplace.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:25.200
You need clients on one side and then the supply on the other to supply that labor.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:26.160
Yeah.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.079
Okay, okay.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:36.079
Um, so my company focuses on on scaling, uh helping other founders scale.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:46.640
When founders say they are ready to scale, what evidence are you looking for inside the business to convince you that that uh that they're ready?
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.480
Market fit fit only metric.
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:58.559
You can be broke and you know have a solo founder or whatever.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:04.319
I don't care about the team, you're not growing the team 10x, you're growing your market 10x.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:17.279
And so if you have an actual demand, an actual MSA, or you know, you have a contract in front of you that says you need to deliver 10x what you did last year, well, that's your growth.
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.680
So I and I couldn't agree more.
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:29.359
I mean, but we say the same thing, like uh, and the reason why we work with scalp so not startup is is the same.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:38.000
Like we're looking for clear product market fit because then the business or the founder is ready to stand on the gas pedal and just accelerate.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:42.160
Um I I couldn't agree more with you there.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.039
Um, but product market fit or or market demand is is it's a journey.
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.440
Like uh the market doesn't stay still, stand still.
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.559
So um three years to find it, right?
00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:01.759
It took us three years, and as we started in the smart home space, and then it wasn't a fit, right?
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:03.440
There was no growth in there.
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:10.000
Uh not amazing margins, uh, it was a project-by-project basis.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:16.559
Yeah, it was uh saturated by very big players, so you get one or two of those big ones, but then what, right?
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:21.759
If you can get REITs onboarded, there's a limit of those players out there.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.720
Um so now that we've pivoted in the in the past three years, right?
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:31.759
That switch made a very, very clear market fit in demand.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:39.440
And now in our backlog, we have demand for 30x our current revenues in the next five years.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:46.400
Okay, uh what exploit is a little bit further, so I like I couldn't agree more.
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:50.400
Like you should always be looking um for the fit.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:33:00.559
Now, founders um struggle with familiarity bias, like it the things that you know you look for those technos to.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:10.000
Um, I mean, besides COVID, what prompted you to um to say this is not the industry for us?
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:18.000
Like it's too small, it's it's like they it's it's uh um populated with incumbent, it's uh it's a red ocean, we need to find a blue ocean.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:32.720
Kind of like how did you go through the through the through the what was your thought process in terms of um it and and the honesty that that you had with yourself uh in terms of determinants like no, we're gonna depart this industry and we're gonna focus on something new.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.279
To be honest, I was blind to it.
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.759
I didn't see it until it hit me with COVID and that kind of triggered everything.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:55.279
But yeah, going into it, growing into it, and then we had you know these uh large reads starting to be interested, and where all the talks and everything that they drag you along, and there's always a motion of this next deal, next deal, next deal.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.240
Uh so you're yeah, you're blind to it totally.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:08.719
What's the what is the hardest part of scaling that becomes obvious only after Grow has already arrived?
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:21.760
Yeah, I don't I don't know about that one in a clear example.
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.800
Okay, let's uh pivot to a different question.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.800
Can you finish this sentence?
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:33.199
A company has achieved clarity when it knows.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:42.639
Like I started the episode with when it knows what it's selling.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.280
I didn't know what I was selling until four years in, right?
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:58.079
I mean, the first three years was a different thing, and then we pivoted, and then the even the first year in the security industry, still then I didn't know what I was selling.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:07.119
You're not selling your features, you're not selling your app, you're not selling any shiny button you can create.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:14.239
It's really that result, that end result that the client is wanting that you're selling.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:19.679
Who does the selling of your company?
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.280
I mean, besides obviously, in the beginning it was all founder-led sales.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:34.800
Um now because still led with my kind of vision and push.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:49.039
Um and I still do a lot of it, and the and the especially the travel and the the face-to-face enterprise, more larger deal sales, uh deal flow.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:52.480
Makes sense.
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:57.679
Uh Boris, I I like to finish my interviews with a with a choice of questions.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:10.239
Um one, what is the best advice that you have ever received, or what is the nicest thing, or the kind, the kindest thing that anyone has ever done for you?
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.920
I think mentors has always been there along the way.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.639
Um, some are good, some are bad, right?
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:34.079
Some are greedy and wants a part of your company and ask for percentages and ask for retainers and ask for monthly payments, blah blah blah blah, can go down the list.
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:35.679
And I went through those, right?
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.320
Wasn't immune to that.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:42.000
Uh, but there's some people generally out there just to help.
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.239
And those are the people you need to find.
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:49.760
So finding a good mentor, uh, amazing.
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:54.559
Um any um any book, any final question?
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:56.239
Any books that you would recommend?
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:03.760
What's the I don't know, don't you don't even have to provide top three, but your favorite book that has helped you scale your business?
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:14.400
Um there's emotional intelligence behaviors by Sandra Jessup.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.840
Okay, that's been pretty good.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:22.480
Um, okay for all vetery valore.
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:26.159
Again, going back to people, right?
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:36.960
Know how to manage your people, manage expectations for your people, and then uh one last one.
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:41.760
I would say prep, push, pivot, really going through pivots.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.840
The only way your startup will succeed is by pivoting.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.320
If you don't pivot quick enough, agree, uh agreed, agreed.
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:52.719
Um, I I I couldn't agree more with you.
00:37:52.800 --> 00:38:12.800
I mean, like uh in particular the OKR objectives and Q results, like this was obviously um Intel's brainchild, and now it's adopted by all technology companies, but I can't tell you how how rarely do I see OKRs in uh in big companies.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:18.880
Um you would see some form of goals and cascading goals, uh, but but never OKRs.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:48.639
Um we are uh we're massive fans of the Atlas and Switter projects because we for for ourselves, but also for our companies and clients, um, because we say use use your Jira for project management, use your atlas for your goals, use your conference for communication, make sure that everything is uh all integrated so that you can have a clear line of sight in terms of like where am I going and how am I doing in terms of achieving the the DM goal.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:53.440
Yeah, um I just want to say thank you for your time.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:58.800
Um, enjoyed having you on the pod and getting you insights in terms of how you scale the whole cost.
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:01.519
So, best of luck in the journey ahead.
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:02.800
Thank you so much.
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:04.239
Thanks, Boris.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:05.599
Thanks, have a great day.
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:06.079
Bye bye.
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:06.960
Yeah.
