[0:01] Welcome to the Future Rainmakers Podcast with Steve Fretzin.
[0:05] The show for ambitious lawyers ready to take control of their careers.
[0:09] Learn how to attract clients, build your brand,
[0:12] and create the freedom and success you deserve.
[0:15] Future Rainmakers, are you ready to be that lawyer?
[0:18] And now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
[0:30] Welcome back to Future Rainmakers with Steve Fretzin.
[0:33] If you're a lawyer ready to take control of your career
[0:35] and build real freedom, you're in the right place.
[0:37] Steve has spent decades coaching attorneys around the world
[0:39] to master business development, marketing, and time management.
[0:42] The skills law school never covered.
[0:44] He's a five-time author or columnist for above the law and attorney at work.
[0:48] And he also hosts another highly rated podcast called Be That Lawyer.
[0:52] I'm Evan Mackin.
[0:53] Today we're talking about re-engaging warm contacts like past clients or colleagues
[0:58] or people you've worked with before.
[1:00] In a way that feels natural and leads to real opportunities.
[1:02] Steve, sir, welcome back.
[1:04] Evan, always a pleasure. I appreciate it.
[1:06] And I'm looking forward to engaging in this conversation with you today.
[1:10] Yeah, so Steve, why do warm contacts matter so much for a lawyer's growth?
[1:15] Especially compared to meeting brand new people for the first time.
[1:18] There's a commercial that we used to watch on in the 80s or 90s.
[1:23] I don't know how far I went and I'm trying to remember back.
[1:25] But it was called Stranger Danger.
[1:27] Right, don't talk to strangers.
[1:29] That was kind of what we came up with when we were in the 70s and 80s
[1:33] and people were being thrown into white vans, I guess.
[1:36] Not in my neighborhood, but in some neighborhoods.
[1:39] So what this is essentially saying is like, you know, look,
[1:43] you can go out and meet strangers.
[1:45] And there's some people that need to do that to build a network wide.
[1:48] You got to go out and enjoy networking groups and go to conferences and meet new people.
[1:53] But if I had the choice between investing time and meeting new people
[2:00] and starting from scratch or leveraging what I've already built, right?
[2:04] The warm relationships, strategic partners, clients, friends, people that know I'm great,
[2:10] love me to death, whatever it might be and whatever your situation is,
[2:14] that's always going to be less time and effort than it is to go and find new people.
[2:19] So I'm not saying don't go out and meet new people.
[2:21] I'm suggesting if you had a limited amount of time to invest in networking or let invest in business development,
[2:28] going after low-hanging fruit with the people that you already know,
[2:31] I'm always going to recommend that over NetNew.
[2:34] What are some signs that a lawyer's network is full of people who could help them if the connection were revived?
[2:39] You know, again, I think what lawyers fail to do and what we work on day-to-day in my programs
[2:45] is helping them understand who's relevant to you and who's maybe less so relevant.
[2:51] So I'll give you the most crazy example I can give you so it'll illustrate it.
[2:54] So let's say I'm looking for business, I'm looking for ambitious lawyers who are hungry to grow
[3:00] that want to engage me as their coach to take things to the next level.
[3:04] And I find a shoe cobbler in Australia and that's someone I'm going to connect with on LinkedIn and start a dialogue with.
[3:11] Or I find a legal recruiter here in Chicago that lives not far from me that I can get together for coffee or lunch.
[3:18] You can only pick one.
[3:20] Which direction do you go? I mean, think about it.
[3:23] The legal recruiter is dealing with lawyers that are looking to move, that are looking to grow, that are looking for a change.
[3:30] They're going to be much more in my world and in my space than some random shoe cobbler in Australia.
[3:36] So I think what lawyers fail to do is they fail to recognize who they should be meeting with and why.
[3:43] And so I typically break it into three categories.
[3:46] Number one is if you can meet someone who's going to be a potential prospect, that's a no-brainer.
[3:51] Number two is if you can meet someone that could be a strategic partner.
[3:55] Someone that aligns with you that's dealing with the same type of people on a day-to-day basis, that might be fine.
[4:02] And then the third is a center of influence.
[4:04] Someone that really is a connector in your world, in your community, in your space that you think might be great.
[4:11] There's a guy named Charlie that I'm friends with who's in the legal tech space.
[4:16] So he's not someone that's going to send me lawyers like a legal recruiter might, but he knows thousands and thousands of legal tech startups.
[4:27] And so he's a connector into all these resources and all these different people.
[4:31] So I think he just has a wide basket of network of people.
[4:35] So I'd consider him like a center of influence in the legal space.
[4:39] So I think lawyers need to think about those three categories as ways to invest time wisely versus, again, just going out and meeting with the masses in a random fashion.
[4:50] Many attorneys hesitate because they don't know what to say.
[4:53] What's a simple low pressure way to restart a conversation with someone they haven't talked to in a while?
[4:58] Yeah, I mean, the low-hanging fruit here, Evan, is really looking at LinkedIn.
[5:03] I mean, LinkedIn is a beautiful, wonderful tool if used properly.
[5:08] So let's just utilize this.
[5:12] There's dozens of people from a lawyer's law school class that they haven't kept in touch with.
[5:20] These people are now on solo, small firm.
[5:23] They're managing partners of firms.
[5:26] They're in big law. They're in general council roles.
[5:29] They're running startups and private equity funds.
[5:32] And you never really kept up with these 10 people.
[5:35] You go into LinkedIn. They're on there.
[5:38] Almost everybody is at this point. It's a professional network.
[5:41] And you just go to their profile and you look around at their profile.
[5:44] Yep. In fact, they're this, that and the other.
[5:46] And then sending them an in mail through, you know, connecting with them on LinkedIn with a custom message.
[5:51] If you're already connected, but you just haven't met them or talked with them in a long time, you could send them an in mail via LinkedIn.
[5:57] Or you can email them their emails typically in in the LinkedIn system.
[6:02] You can use that email and say, you know, hey, I was just can't believe it, but you're you popped up on LinkedIn today out of nowhere.
[6:10] And I just thought, holy mackerel, it's been, you know, 10 years since we've spoken.
[6:15] Looks like you're doing really well. Me is me too.
[6:18] I'd love to hear about what's going on with you and your family and your life.
[6:21] Why don't we connect for a 30-minute Zoom since you're in Seattle and I'm in Chicago.
[6:25] And just reconnect. I'd love to hear what's going on and see what's new.
[6:30] So that's that's an email that you sent out maybe with some dates and times of when are best to meet.
[6:36] But the point is I'm not I'm not emailing or calling or saying, hey, I'd love to talk to you about what I'm selling today.
[6:43] Or I'd love to hear what you're doing so I could sell you stuff.
[6:46] Just make it super vague and like a reconnection call and how great.
[6:51] You know, remember that time, you know, we did those keg stands and we both got hammered or whatever it might be.
[6:56] That reminisce you together and bring that up or don't.
[7:00] It's up to you or whatever. Remember that girl that we both had a crush on.
[7:03] Whatever it might be and leverage that nostalgia in the LinkedIn as a reasoning to get back together.
[7:10] That's really going to be the easiest way to reconnect in a soft way that I think will get some traction for you.
[7:16] How many keg stands you do Steve?
[7:18] I'm not going to say that in this podcast, but I'll put up some fingers and let it go at that.
[7:24] Same thing with beer bonds. Those are those in shots.
[7:27] None of those benefited anyone in any way.
[7:30] But that's your pressure we had in the 80s and 90s going to college.
[7:34] So that's what sometimes you got it.
[7:36] You got to show up and not be your best self.
[7:39] So how should a lawyer decide whether, you know,
[7:45] which warm context or words reconnecting with versus those who might not be a right fit anymore?
[7:50] Well, I'm going to go back to something I mentioned earlier and I think this might have been in our last episode.
[7:55] We talked about client loyalty and ranking people A's, B's and C's.
[8:00] I think when you look at your network and you go in and you create and one of the first things I do and lawyers do this,
[8:06] but they don't always do it properly is part of a business development plan should include looking at your existing and past network.
[8:14] OK, and if you can take all of your LinkedIn, take all of your contacts in your phone,
[8:19] look at your law school and undergrad, look at your neighborhood, look at your church or temple,
[8:24] look at the boards you sit on and essentially create a master list of all these people.
[8:29] Take the top hundred and rate them a B or C.
[8:34] And I'm going to give some some some some thoughts on you can rate them and define them however you want.
[8:40] But I would do it this way and this is what I recommend to my clients.
[8:45] And A is going to be someone where you have a rock solid relationship and you believe or understand that there's significant growth opportunities there.
[8:54] So I have a very good relationship with my good friend John.
[8:58] He's a GC at a fairly large company.
[9:01] We don't really talk business, but because of the relationship and because of the level of opportunity that exists there, I'm going to put him as an A.
[9:09] All right.
[9:11] Now the question is going to be asked, well, that's great.
[9:14] But you're Steve, you're in the friend zone.
[9:16] How do you have that conversation? Well, I'm not going to share that you got to hire me to find that out.
[9:20] No, I'm just kidding.
[9:21] But like that's a separate conversation like how to break through the friend zone and get the business from someone that is a good friend.
[9:28] The second one might be a B.
[9:30] This is where the relationship is good.
[9:32] The relationship is good. The opportunity may be good or have good potential.
[9:37] I may not be sure, but the B's are absolutely solid in your network of people that you're going to want to sit down with and have a strong process of how to run that meeting, how to meet with them, how to be a service or value.
[9:52] And then how do you pull out information to understand if they're qualified for you to continue talking with them from a business standpoint.
[9:59] Or if you should just keep it a personal relationship, right?
[10:03] And then C's, you know, that might be everyone outside of the hundred that you may just want to connect with on LinkedIn.
[10:09] Maybe you don't want to reach out and just say hello.
[10:11] Make sure they're aware of what you do.
[10:13] But it may not be, you know, if you have 100 people to meet with, that might take you a year to get through.
[10:18] So I would say the C's could be, you know, rated as C a later as in next year because right now I'm focusing on my A's and B's.
[10:26] So when someone reaches out after that long gap, what makes the message feel genuine rather than transactional, you know, or maybe shallow.
[10:34] Yeah, I've come up with a number of different, you know, systems and languages for this.
[10:39] But I always feel that if we can use nostalgia as a way to reconnect us in a fun, interesting way.
[10:46] We had dinner, I had dinner with a friend of mine a few months ago.
[10:51] And his wife in the service was horrible.
[10:54] And the food didn't come on time and something didn't taste right.
[10:57] And there was a pizza we ordered to go that never came.
[11:00] And so I was just amazing to watch my friend's wife go to town on the wait staff, the manager, everybody about what had just occurred.
[11:10] For me, it was like watching like live action, like, you know, in a movie.
[11:16] I was so into her and watching her moves and how she was managing to get our bill, basically, not or nothing because her husband had to leave the table.
[11:25] He was so upset about the way his wife was behaving.
[11:28] So we had different takes.
[11:30] But I said to him, like as a catch up, you know, hey, Dave, maybe it would make sense for us to grab dinner.
[11:35] Hopefully the service is better because your wife doesn't need to go through that again.
[11:40] And he didn't even remember that he had left the table.
[11:43] So it was kind of funny.
[11:44] I had to remind him that he was so upset about it.
[11:46] He left the table.
[11:47] So any kind of nostalgia, you know, you and I started off Evan when we got, before we jumped into doing this conversation today, that we are both huge,
[11:57] Premier League soccer fans.
[11:58] And we started talking about Man United and I know Heidi jumped in on that and I'm a big Liverpool.
[12:05] But I love Arsenal.
[12:06] I love a lot of teams.
[12:07] I do too, man.
[12:08] I'm like no worse fan ever.
[12:10] I look, I like Liverpool too.
[12:11] Yeah, like I'm not really about the specific team.
[12:14] I mean, I have favorite teams, but it's mostly because I love the players.
[12:17] I love the coach.
[12:18] And I just love watching when a team can demonstrate unity in their passing and their approach
[12:26] and their set plays and all of this.
[12:28] And but you and I can connect on that so easily to then talk business is no problem because we were building that
[12:36] likeability and trust and re-engaging that nostalgia in a way that makes having any conversation very easy and free-flowing.
[12:44] So what kind of follow-up conversations come naturally out of these reconnections when they're handled really well?
[12:50] Is it that nostalgia?
[12:51] Is there something else you can draw from as well?
[12:53] Well, I think the nostalgia, you know, gets us back together.
[12:58] You know, when I'm meeting with, when I'm meeting or when a client of mine is meeting with an old friend and maybe that old friend has a power role at a company where you're bringing them in to do some legal work maybe there.
[13:10] I'm always sales free, right?
[13:13] That's my whole jam and my whole process is sales free.
[13:16] So the last thing we want to do is we want to start selling them over a lunch to try to get their business.
[13:22] What I would prefer is to build deeper relationships, ask a lot of questions, find common ground and start being super curious and interested.
[13:30] And that's a thing that lawyers naturally are but sometimes they don't realize they should be that way to build back relationship and to be interested in understanding of what someone else is going through and what their job and their life and their career are.
[13:45] We tend to one up, we tend to want to talk, we tend to want to go in and solve.
[13:49] And what I'm recommending lawyers do is stop doing all of that and really be interested and curious because what happens when we start asking someone about their company?
[13:57] We start asking them about their role in the company.
[13:59] What's going, what's happening in 2026, 27?
[14:03] How has, you know, the policies of our administration and the economy impacted the way they're able to do their business?
[14:12] They're in an international business where gas and trade and all these things are being impacted by politics and the economy and all of that, being super interested.
[14:22] But what might end up happening is you start to hear them complain, complain about their past lawyer, complain about their job, complain about their business, the things that are going on.
[14:33] And what that opens up for is opportunities to be helpful. That might be helpful in a direct way from a standpoint of their lawyer.
[14:41] Like it sounds like you're not really happy with your labor and employment. And again, you know, we've been friends for a long time.
[14:46] You know, you know, this is my jam, but I never want to push that on you, but it sounds like you might want, we might want to talk because what you're going through shouldn't be happening.
[14:56] The way that I conduct myself and my firm conducts ourselves is this, and this is what we do. So maybe you and your president, your company could sit down with me in my number two.
[15:08] And just talk through some of the employment challenges you're having. And again, if you're uncomfortable with that, let me know.
[15:13] But it sounds like based on what you're going through, it might make sense to have a second opinion because it sounds like you're opening yourself up for a lot of lawsuits from my take.
[15:22] And they're like, oh, my God, Steve, that would be amazing. I really appreciate that. Well, what happened is we just have now an at bat with a new company with a very good friend of mine, because or an old friend of mine, because I asked enough questions to identify goals that they can achieve on their own or business that problems they're having that I may be able to resolve.
[15:42] Or maybe it has nothing to do with me as a lawyer, but they need a new assistant general counsel. And I have a friend who's looking for an assistant general counsel role. And I can put two people together and make a win win. And I'm adding value for them.
[15:57] I'm adding value for my friend. I'm being a giver. And that may open up doors for me to get that business.
[16:03] Because certainly my friend who's finding a job and this friend who I'm helping find a new assistant GC might want to or might feel like they not only something, but like that.
[16:13] I've done a solid for both of them, essentially. And that, you know, throwing some business my way, my way may not be a terrible idea, right? We just, we just, you know, they might feel, you know, interested and obligated to want to pay it, pay it back based on on my paying it forward.
[16:29] So how can a lawyer stay visible, you know, with these warm context going forward. So the relationship doesn't go cold again.
[16:35] Yeah. I mean, again, I spoke about a client loyalty plan earlier. And I think this could also be set up for a relationship loyalty system of again, who are you're a strategic partners, best friends, people in power roles, prospects that you think you should be getting in front of and staying in front of and inviting and including in panels and podcasts.
[16:58] Any in social venture firm is running anything inviting them to games dinners, whatever it might be. These are the people that are going to make you the most money and give you the greatest opportunity for for business and longevity.
[17:10] Then you've got the people in the bees, the middle row again, you know, meeting with them a little less, but still including them. And again, most people aren't thinking about that now, just to give an example, practice what I preach.
[17:22] I'm using a software called La Maddox. It's not really made for folks like me, but it's made for law firms. But what it does is it allows me to have pipelines and these pipelines include my A clients, my B clients, my C clients, my A past clients, my A past clients, my B past clients, my C past clients.
[17:39] And then it also has all of my A B and C network people, people that I've had on the podcast, people that I have networked with that I have relations with that are my referral partners. And what this allows me to do is it allows me to send a personalized or what appears to be giving a secret here, a personalized email to them.
[17:57] Even though I'm sending it to 100 people, 100 people are getting the same email, but it says John Bob, Fred, Karen, Susie, whatever. So it looks customized. That's different than a newsletter and it's different than a BCC or sending a group of message.
[18:14] They're getting a personalized email and most lawyers don't any software that does that. And it makes a huge difference in how we keep in touch with them, how we add value, send them articles, send them new content, new programs,
[18:26] new invitations to events on a more regular, recurring basis with less time invested in how we keep in touch.
[18:33] Some of the lawyers, you know, worry about feeling awkward or intrusive. How do you help them, you know, approach this in a way that feels, you know, comfortable and professional?
[18:40] Again, I don't think we're approaching them directly in sales e to get business. I think that there's nostalgia as we talked about. There's just reconnecting.
[18:50] There's, you know, getting together to have a quarterly check in, you know, I know we talk, you know, about the matters on a day-to-day basis, but I'd like to just have a more relaxed, you know, conversation with you over lunch once a month so that we can talk shop but also just make sure, you know, everything's going well in general with your business.
[19:12] Whatever it is that you need to customize to, again, stay top of mind to add value and to stay in front of the people that send you business or are your current clients.
[19:22] Again, it's just not done. I have a client in Iraq, amazing, runs like a 30, 40, 50 person law firm, I'm sure I remember how many people, he keeps adding people.
[19:33] He said to me quite frankly, all I need to do to get business and any day of the week is I just need to tell a client, hey, I'm going to come out and see you.
[19:43] He comes out and sees them, he walks around their shop, he walks around their, you know, distribution, place, manufacturing, shop, whatever it might be, their office, and without question, without fail, he walks away with new business.
[19:57] He identifies things, he meets people, he says hi, shakes hands, kisses, babies, all of that, but he always walks away with more business.
[20:05] And I think lawyers don't realize or recognize that it could be that easy, you just need to be in front of them and good things happen.
[20:12] And then to finish things out, those deep or lawyer listening who wants to reconnect with a few people this week, what's the easy step to get started?
[20:19] Well, obviously as we talked about a few times today, Evan, having a list, you know, if you're not prepared with a list,
[20:25] it's very challenging to just like sort of look at your computer and say, what do I do now or who do I reach out to or who, like who have an I seem to allow?
[20:35] Like you, if you have a list, you need to have that list converted over to your calendar of who and who you're going to talk to and email and get together with on a weekly, monthly, quarterly basis.
[20:46] You need to have that plan in place of an email scripting of how you're going to reach out.
[20:52] What are the different things that you have in your bank of value ads that you could reach out to them with to add value on a regular basis?
[21:01] Again, could be social and personal, it could be value to them in their company and their practice, their firm, whatever it might be.
[21:08] It could be value to them, asking having a series of questions prepared of what you want to get out of them to be of service.
[21:16] And I think you're picking up on a trend here that it's not just about staying top of mind, it's about how are we adding value beyond the matter.
[21:24] I think if we look at what the client loyalty myth would be, and this goes for strategic partners as well, is that if we just provide good service at a fair rate that we're going to keep those people forever,
[21:35] with strategic partners, it might be if they send us people and we've sent them people that they're going to stay with us forever, not always the case.
[21:42] We now are in a situation where we have to do more, be more and have a more robust relationship than ever to ensure that people stay with us long term, see value in us and appreciate us in a way that I think 10 or 15, 20 years ago, you didn't have to do so much.
[21:58] And today you do.
[21:59] This stuff Steve, appreciate the time sir.
[22:01] Absolutely thanks Evan.
[22:02] That's it for today's episode of Future Rainmakers with Steve Fredson.
[22:06] If you want more tools to be able to practice you enjoy, not just one you manage, visit be that lawyer.com for free resources, articles, videos, and details on Steve's coaching programs as well.
[22:17] Thank you for listening and don't forget to follow me, the review and share the show with another lawyer who wants to grow.
[22:22] Thank you so much and we will see you all next time.
[22:25] Thanks for tuning in to the Future Rainmakers podcast with Steve Fredson.
[22:30] If you're ready to grow your book and elevate your practice, visit be that lawyer.com for tools and coaching.
[22:37] Be sure to follow the show and leave a rating or review so more lawyers can find it.
[22:42] Until next time stay focused, stay driven, and keep being that lawyer.
[0:05] The show for ambitious lawyers ready to take control of their careers.
[0:09] Learn how to attract clients, build your brand,
[0:12] and create the freedom and success you deserve.
[0:15] Future Rainmakers, are you ready to be that lawyer?
[0:18] And now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
[0:30] Welcome back to Future Rainmakers with Steve Fretzin.
[0:33] If you're a lawyer ready to take control of your career
[0:35] and build real freedom, you're in the right place.
[0:37] Steve has spent decades coaching attorneys around the world
[0:39] to master business development, marketing, and time management.
[0:42] The skills law school never covered.
[0:44] He's a five-time author or columnist for above the law and attorney at work.
[0:48] And he also hosts another highly rated podcast called Be That Lawyer.
[0:52] I'm Evan Mackin.
[0:53] Today we're talking about re-engaging warm contacts like past clients or colleagues
[0:58] or people you've worked with before.
[1:00] In a way that feels natural and leads to real opportunities.
[1:02] Steve, sir, welcome back.
[1:04] Evan, always a pleasure. I appreciate it.
[1:06] And I'm looking forward to engaging in this conversation with you today.
[1:10] Yeah, so Steve, why do warm contacts matter so much for a lawyer's growth?
[1:15] Especially compared to meeting brand new people for the first time.
[1:18] There's a commercial that we used to watch on in the 80s or 90s.
[1:23] I don't know how far I went and I'm trying to remember back.
[1:25] But it was called Stranger Danger.
[1:27] Right, don't talk to strangers.
[1:29] That was kind of what we came up with when we were in the 70s and 80s
[1:33] and people were being thrown into white vans, I guess.
[1:36] Not in my neighborhood, but in some neighborhoods.
[1:39] So what this is essentially saying is like, you know, look,
[1:43] you can go out and meet strangers.
[1:45] And there's some people that need to do that to build a network wide.
[1:48] You got to go out and enjoy networking groups and go to conferences and meet new people.
[1:53] But if I had the choice between investing time and meeting new people
[2:00] and starting from scratch or leveraging what I've already built, right?
[2:04] The warm relationships, strategic partners, clients, friends, people that know I'm great,
[2:10] love me to death, whatever it might be and whatever your situation is,
[2:14] that's always going to be less time and effort than it is to go and find new people.
[2:19] So I'm not saying don't go out and meet new people.
[2:21] I'm suggesting if you had a limited amount of time to invest in networking or let invest in business development,
[2:28] going after low-hanging fruit with the people that you already know,
[2:31] I'm always going to recommend that over NetNew.
[2:34] What are some signs that a lawyer's network is full of people who could help them if the connection were revived?
[2:39] You know, again, I think what lawyers fail to do and what we work on day-to-day in my programs
[2:45] is helping them understand who's relevant to you and who's maybe less so relevant.
[2:51] So I'll give you the most crazy example I can give you so it'll illustrate it.
[2:54] So let's say I'm looking for business, I'm looking for ambitious lawyers who are hungry to grow
[3:00] that want to engage me as their coach to take things to the next level.
[3:04] And I find a shoe cobbler in Australia and that's someone I'm going to connect with on LinkedIn and start a dialogue with.
[3:11] Or I find a legal recruiter here in Chicago that lives not far from me that I can get together for coffee or lunch.
[3:18] You can only pick one.
[3:20] Which direction do you go? I mean, think about it.
[3:23] The legal recruiter is dealing with lawyers that are looking to move, that are looking to grow, that are looking for a change.
[3:30] They're going to be much more in my world and in my space than some random shoe cobbler in Australia.
[3:36] So I think what lawyers fail to do is they fail to recognize who they should be meeting with and why.
[3:43] And so I typically break it into three categories.
[3:46] Number one is if you can meet someone who's going to be a potential prospect, that's a no-brainer.
[3:51] Number two is if you can meet someone that could be a strategic partner.
[3:55] Someone that aligns with you that's dealing with the same type of people on a day-to-day basis, that might be fine.
[4:02] And then the third is a center of influence.
[4:04] Someone that really is a connector in your world, in your community, in your space that you think might be great.
[4:11] There's a guy named Charlie that I'm friends with who's in the legal tech space.
[4:16] So he's not someone that's going to send me lawyers like a legal recruiter might, but he knows thousands and thousands of legal tech startups.
[4:27] And so he's a connector into all these resources and all these different people.
[4:31] So I think he just has a wide basket of network of people.
[4:35] So I'd consider him like a center of influence in the legal space.
[4:39] So I think lawyers need to think about those three categories as ways to invest time wisely versus, again, just going out and meeting with the masses in a random fashion.
[4:50] Many attorneys hesitate because they don't know what to say.
[4:53] What's a simple low pressure way to restart a conversation with someone they haven't talked to in a while?
[4:58] Yeah, I mean, the low-hanging fruit here, Evan, is really looking at LinkedIn.
[5:03] I mean, LinkedIn is a beautiful, wonderful tool if used properly.
[5:08] So let's just utilize this.
[5:12] There's dozens of people from a lawyer's law school class that they haven't kept in touch with.
[5:20] These people are now on solo, small firm.
[5:23] They're managing partners of firms.
[5:26] They're in big law. They're in general council roles.
[5:29] They're running startups and private equity funds.
[5:32] And you never really kept up with these 10 people.
[5:35] You go into LinkedIn. They're on there.
[5:38] Almost everybody is at this point. It's a professional network.
[5:41] And you just go to their profile and you look around at their profile.
[5:44] Yep. In fact, they're this, that and the other.
[5:46] And then sending them an in mail through, you know, connecting with them on LinkedIn with a custom message.
[5:51] If you're already connected, but you just haven't met them or talked with them in a long time, you could send them an in mail via LinkedIn.
[5:57] Or you can email them their emails typically in in the LinkedIn system.
[6:02] You can use that email and say, you know, hey, I was just can't believe it, but you're you popped up on LinkedIn today out of nowhere.
[6:10] And I just thought, holy mackerel, it's been, you know, 10 years since we've spoken.
[6:15] Looks like you're doing really well. Me is me too.
[6:18] I'd love to hear about what's going on with you and your family and your life.
[6:21] Why don't we connect for a 30-minute Zoom since you're in Seattle and I'm in Chicago.
[6:25] And just reconnect. I'd love to hear what's going on and see what's new.
[6:30] So that's that's an email that you sent out maybe with some dates and times of when are best to meet.
[6:36] But the point is I'm not I'm not emailing or calling or saying, hey, I'd love to talk to you about what I'm selling today.
[6:43] Or I'd love to hear what you're doing so I could sell you stuff.
[6:46] Just make it super vague and like a reconnection call and how great.
[6:51] You know, remember that time, you know, we did those keg stands and we both got hammered or whatever it might be.
[6:56] That reminisce you together and bring that up or don't.
[7:00] It's up to you or whatever. Remember that girl that we both had a crush on.
[7:03] Whatever it might be and leverage that nostalgia in the LinkedIn as a reasoning to get back together.
[7:10] That's really going to be the easiest way to reconnect in a soft way that I think will get some traction for you.
[7:16] How many keg stands you do Steve?
[7:18] I'm not going to say that in this podcast, but I'll put up some fingers and let it go at that.
[7:24] Same thing with beer bonds. Those are those in shots.
[7:27] None of those benefited anyone in any way.
[7:30] But that's your pressure we had in the 80s and 90s going to college.
[7:34] So that's what sometimes you got it.
[7:36] You got to show up and not be your best self.
[7:39] So how should a lawyer decide whether, you know,
[7:45] which warm context or words reconnecting with versus those who might not be a right fit anymore?
[7:50] Well, I'm going to go back to something I mentioned earlier and I think this might have been in our last episode.
[7:55] We talked about client loyalty and ranking people A's, B's and C's.
[8:00] I think when you look at your network and you go in and you create and one of the first things I do and lawyers do this,
[8:06] but they don't always do it properly is part of a business development plan should include looking at your existing and past network.
[8:14] OK, and if you can take all of your LinkedIn, take all of your contacts in your phone,
[8:19] look at your law school and undergrad, look at your neighborhood, look at your church or temple,
[8:24] look at the boards you sit on and essentially create a master list of all these people.
[8:29] Take the top hundred and rate them a B or C.
[8:34] And I'm going to give some some some some thoughts on you can rate them and define them however you want.
[8:40] But I would do it this way and this is what I recommend to my clients.
[8:45] And A is going to be someone where you have a rock solid relationship and you believe or understand that there's significant growth opportunities there.
[8:54] So I have a very good relationship with my good friend John.
[8:58] He's a GC at a fairly large company.
[9:01] We don't really talk business, but because of the relationship and because of the level of opportunity that exists there, I'm going to put him as an A.
[9:09] All right.
[9:11] Now the question is going to be asked, well, that's great.
[9:14] But you're Steve, you're in the friend zone.
[9:16] How do you have that conversation? Well, I'm not going to share that you got to hire me to find that out.
[9:20] No, I'm just kidding.
[9:21] But like that's a separate conversation like how to break through the friend zone and get the business from someone that is a good friend.
[9:28] The second one might be a B.
[9:30] This is where the relationship is good.
[9:32] The relationship is good. The opportunity may be good or have good potential.
[9:37] I may not be sure, but the B's are absolutely solid in your network of people that you're going to want to sit down with and have a strong process of how to run that meeting, how to meet with them, how to be a service or value.
[9:52] And then how do you pull out information to understand if they're qualified for you to continue talking with them from a business standpoint.
[9:59] Or if you should just keep it a personal relationship, right?
[10:03] And then C's, you know, that might be everyone outside of the hundred that you may just want to connect with on LinkedIn.
[10:09] Maybe you don't want to reach out and just say hello.
[10:11] Make sure they're aware of what you do.
[10:13] But it may not be, you know, if you have 100 people to meet with, that might take you a year to get through.
[10:18] So I would say the C's could be, you know, rated as C a later as in next year because right now I'm focusing on my A's and B's.
[10:26] So when someone reaches out after that long gap, what makes the message feel genuine rather than transactional, you know, or maybe shallow.
[10:34] Yeah, I've come up with a number of different, you know, systems and languages for this.
[10:39] But I always feel that if we can use nostalgia as a way to reconnect us in a fun, interesting way.
[10:46] We had dinner, I had dinner with a friend of mine a few months ago.
[10:51] And his wife in the service was horrible.
[10:54] And the food didn't come on time and something didn't taste right.
[10:57] And there was a pizza we ordered to go that never came.
[11:00] And so I was just amazing to watch my friend's wife go to town on the wait staff, the manager, everybody about what had just occurred.
[11:10] For me, it was like watching like live action, like, you know, in a movie.
[11:16] I was so into her and watching her moves and how she was managing to get our bill, basically, not or nothing because her husband had to leave the table.
[11:25] He was so upset about the way his wife was behaving.
[11:28] So we had different takes.
[11:30] But I said to him, like as a catch up, you know, hey, Dave, maybe it would make sense for us to grab dinner.
[11:35] Hopefully the service is better because your wife doesn't need to go through that again.
[11:40] And he didn't even remember that he had left the table.
[11:43] So it was kind of funny.
[11:44] I had to remind him that he was so upset about it.
[11:46] He left the table.
[11:47] So any kind of nostalgia, you know, you and I started off Evan when we got, before we jumped into doing this conversation today, that we are both huge,
[11:57] Premier League soccer fans.
[11:58] And we started talking about Man United and I know Heidi jumped in on that and I'm a big Liverpool.
[12:05] But I love Arsenal.
[12:06] I love a lot of teams.
[12:07] I do too, man.
[12:08] I'm like no worse fan ever.
[12:10] I look, I like Liverpool too.
[12:11] Yeah, like I'm not really about the specific team.
[12:14] I mean, I have favorite teams, but it's mostly because I love the players.
[12:17] I love the coach.
[12:18] And I just love watching when a team can demonstrate unity in their passing and their approach
[12:26] and their set plays and all of this.
[12:28] And but you and I can connect on that so easily to then talk business is no problem because we were building that
[12:36] likeability and trust and re-engaging that nostalgia in a way that makes having any conversation very easy and free-flowing.
[12:44] So what kind of follow-up conversations come naturally out of these reconnections when they're handled really well?
[12:50] Is it that nostalgia?
[12:51] Is there something else you can draw from as well?
[12:53] Well, I think the nostalgia, you know, gets us back together.
[12:58] You know, when I'm meeting with, when I'm meeting or when a client of mine is meeting with an old friend and maybe that old friend has a power role at a company where you're bringing them in to do some legal work maybe there.
[13:10] I'm always sales free, right?
[13:13] That's my whole jam and my whole process is sales free.
[13:16] So the last thing we want to do is we want to start selling them over a lunch to try to get their business.
[13:22] What I would prefer is to build deeper relationships, ask a lot of questions, find common ground and start being super curious and interested.
[13:30] And that's a thing that lawyers naturally are but sometimes they don't realize they should be that way to build back relationship and to be interested in understanding of what someone else is going through and what their job and their life and their career are.
[13:45] We tend to one up, we tend to want to talk, we tend to want to go in and solve.
[13:49] And what I'm recommending lawyers do is stop doing all of that and really be interested and curious because what happens when we start asking someone about their company?
[13:57] We start asking them about their role in the company.
[13:59] What's going, what's happening in 2026, 27?
[14:03] How has, you know, the policies of our administration and the economy impacted the way they're able to do their business?
[14:12] They're in an international business where gas and trade and all these things are being impacted by politics and the economy and all of that, being super interested.
[14:22] But what might end up happening is you start to hear them complain, complain about their past lawyer, complain about their job, complain about their business, the things that are going on.
[14:33] And what that opens up for is opportunities to be helpful. That might be helpful in a direct way from a standpoint of their lawyer.
[14:41] Like it sounds like you're not really happy with your labor and employment. And again, you know, we've been friends for a long time.
[14:46] You know, you know, this is my jam, but I never want to push that on you, but it sounds like you might want, we might want to talk because what you're going through shouldn't be happening.
[14:56] The way that I conduct myself and my firm conducts ourselves is this, and this is what we do. So maybe you and your president, your company could sit down with me in my number two.
[15:08] And just talk through some of the employment challenges you're having. And again, if you're uncomfortable with that, let me know.
[15:13] But it sounds like based on what you're going through, it might make sense to have a second opinion because it sounds like you're opening yourself up for a lot of lawsuits from my take.
[15:22] And they're like, oh, my God, Steve, that would be amazing. I really appreciate that. Well, what happened is we just have now an at bat with a new company with a very good friend of mine, because or an old friend of mine, because I asked enough questions to identify goals that they can achieve on their own or business that problems they're having that I may be able to resolve.
[15:42] Or maybe it has nothing to do with me as a lawyer, but they need a new assistant general counsel. And I have a friend who's looking for an assistant general counsel role. And I can put two people together and make a win win. And I'm adding value for them.
[15:57] I'm adding value for my friend. I'm being a giver. And that may open up doors for me to get that business.
[16:03] Because certainly my friend who's finding a job and this friend who I'm helping find a new assistant GC might want to or might feel like they not only something, but like that.
[16:13] I've done a solid for both of them, essentially. And that, you know, throwing some business my way, my way may not be a terrible idea, right? We just, we just, you know, they might feel, you know, interested and obligated to want to pay it, pay it back based on on my paying it forward.
[16:29] So how can a lawyer stay visible, you know, with these warm context going forward. So the relationship doesn't go cold again.
[16:35] Yeah. I mean, again, I spoke about a client loyalty plan earlier. And I think this could also be set up for a relationship loyalty system of again, who are you're a strategic partners, best friends, people in power roles, prospects that you think you should be getting in front of and staying in front of and inviting and including in panels and podcasts.
[16:58] Any in social venture firm is running anything inviting them to games dinners, whatever it might be. These are the people that are going to make you the most money and give you the greatest opportunity for for business and longevity.
[17:10] Then you've got the people in the bees, the middle row again, you know, meeting with them a little less, but still including them. And again, most people aren't thinking about that now, just to give an example, practice what I preach.
[17:22] I'm using a software called La Maddox. It's not really made for folks like me, but it's made for law firms. But what it does is it allows me to have pipelines and these pipelines include my A clients, my B clients, my C clients, my A past clients, my A past clients, my B past clients, my C past clients.
[17:39] And then it also has all of my A B and C network people, people that I've had on the podcast, people that I have networked with that I have relations with that are my referral partners. And what this allows me to do is it allows me to send a personalized or what appears to be giving a secret here, a personalized email to them.
[17:57] Even though I'm sending it to 100 people, 100 people are getting the same email, but it says John Bob, Fred, Karen, Susie, whatever. So it looks customized. That's different than a newsletter and it's different than a BCC or sending a group of message.
[18:14] They're getting a personalized email and most lawyers don't any software that does that. And it makes a huge difference in how we keep in touch with them, how we add value, send them articles, send them new content, new programs,
[18:26] new invitations to events on a more regular, recurring basis with less time invested in how we keep in touch.
[18:33] Some of the lawyers, you know, worry about feeling awkward or intrusive. How do you help them, you know, approach this in a way that feels, you know, comfortable and professional?
[18:40] Again, I don't think we're approaching them directly in sales e to get business. I think that there's nostalgia as we talked about. There's just reconnecting.
[18:50] There's, you know, getting together to have a quarterly check in, you know, I know we talk, you know, about the matters on a day-to-day basis, but I'd like to just have a more relaxed, you know, conversation with you over lunch once a month so that we can talk shop but also just make sure, you know, everything's going well in general with your business.
[19:12] Whatever it is that you need to customize to, again, stay top of mind to add value and to stay in front of the people that send you business or are your current clients.
[19:22] Again, it's just not done. I have a client in Iraq, amazing, runs like a 30, 40, 50 person law firm, I'm sure I remember how many people, he keeps adding people.
[19:33] He said to me quite frankly, all I need to do to get business and any day of the week is I just need to tell a client, hey, I'm going to come out and see you.
[19:43] He comes out and sees them, he walks around their shop, he walks around their, you know, distribution, place, manufacturing, shop, whatever it might be, their office, and without question, without fail, he walks away with new business.
[19:57] He identifies things, he meets people, he says hi, shakes hands, kisses, babies, all of that, but he always walks away with more business.
[20:05] And I think lawyers don't realize or recognize that it could be that easy, you just need to be in front of them and good things happen.
[20:12] And then to finish things out, those deep or lawyer listening who wants to reconnect with a few people this week, what's the easy step to get started?
[20:19] Well, obviously as we talked about a few times today, Evan, having a list, you know, if you're not prepared with a list,
[20:25] it's very challenging to just like sort of look at your computer and say, what do I do now or who do I reach out to or who, like who have an I seem to allow?
[20:35] Like you, if you have a list, you need to have that list converted over to your calendar of who and who you're going to talk to and email and get together with on a weekly, monthly, quarterly basis.
[20:46] You need to have that plan in place of an email scripting of how you're going to reach out.
[20:52] What are the different things that you have in your bank of value ads that you could reach out to them with to add value on a regular basis?
[21:01] Again, could be social and personal, it could be value to them in their company and their practice, their firm, whatever it might be.
[21:08] It could be value to them, asking having a series of questions prepared of what you want to get out of them to be of service.
[21:16] And I think you're picking up on a trend here that it's not just about staying top of mind, it's about how are we adding value beyond the matter.
[21:24] I think if we look at what the client loyalty myth would be, and this goes for strategic partners as well, is that if we just provide good service at a fair rate that we're going to keep those people forever,
[21:35] with strategic partners, it might be if they send us people and we've sent them people that they're going to stay with us forever, not always the case.
[21:42] We now are in a situation where we have to do more, be more and have a more robust relationship than ever to ensure that people stay with us long term, see value in us and appreciate us in a way that I think 10 or 15, 20 years ago, you didn't have to do so much.
[21:58] And today you do.
[21:59] This stuff Steve, appreciate the time sir.
[22:01] Absolutely thanks Evan.
[22:02] That's it for today's episode of Future Rainmakers with Steve Fredson.
[22:06] If you want more tools to be able to practice you enjoy, not just one you manage, visit be that lawyer.com for free resources, articles, videos, and details on Steve's coaching programs as well.
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[22:22] Thank you so much and we will see you all next time.
[22:25] Thanks for tuning in to the Future Rainmakers podcast with Steve Fredson.
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