From Pulpit to Platform: Alexander Lang’s Journey

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>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
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for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
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21st century. At the Future Christian
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Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
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and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
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wisdom to help you and your community of faith
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walk boldly into the future. Whether
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you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
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of your faith community, this podcast is
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designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
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with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
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And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
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Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
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Today, Martha Tatarnic again welcomes Alexander Lang
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to the show. Martha had a great episode with him
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back in season 14. We'll put a link in the show.
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Notes Alex is a former PCUSA
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pastor who worked in church ministry for 20
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years. He has since left the
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church to pursue a technology business that is
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designed to help people form meaningful relationships.
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Alex's interests include independent film,
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electronic music, and deep conversation with people
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who question, doubt and want to
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dig into the most complex issues we face as
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humans. When he's not working on
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books, podcasts, or the restorative faith
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movement, Alex enjoys spending time with his wife
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and two sons. One more thing.
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Please take a moment to leave a review on whatever podcast
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app you're listening on and share this episode with a
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friend. Thanks and enjoy the
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episode.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am
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the co host of this podcast, Martha
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Tatarnic. Today I am having a conversation
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with someone who is becoming quite well known to our
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future Christian community, Alexander
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Lang. Alex, you're becoming a bit
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of a fixture on this podcast and I'm so
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grateful for that being the case because it is always
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such a, uh, delight
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and a uh, time full of insight when I get
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to be able to talk with you.
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>> Alexander Lang: Oh, thank you. Wow, that's really
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kind as an introduction. No, I'm really happy to
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be here. It's been really nice to be able to
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uh, consistently come back and talk to you all,
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uh, and to be part of your, to be able to speak to your
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audience.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, for sure. Now, just a, ah, refresher to
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our listeners or to give some context to
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new people tuning in. Um,
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Alex, we've had a few really interesting
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conversations on past Future Christian
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episodes. The first time we talked was about a
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year ago I think, and it was after
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your choice to leave parish
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ministry, an article that you had
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written about your reasons for leaving parish ministry
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going viral. And uh,
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I felt quite privileged to be able
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to talk with you in the midst of
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all of the many media requests that you
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were fielding at that time. Um, then
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we talked earlier this year about your new
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book, Restorative spirituality for the
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21st century rationalist.
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So why don't you catch us up
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on what is going on for you right now. I know that you
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do have a few creative irons in the
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fire, so can you just, uh, tell
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our listeners what's getting you out of bed in the morning these
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days or keeping you up at night?
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>> Alexander Lang: Sure. No, no, no. Yeah. The last time we spoke, as you
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said, I had just published Restorative, uh,
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Beauty. And as you can appreciate, because
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you're working on a book right now, uh, it feels good to
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have it behind you. So when you're in the middle of it, it's just so much
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time and effort goes into that. And so to be
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freed of that, uh, was just
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a wonderful thing. I was able to kind of turn my attention back to
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my podcast, which is the Restorative Faith Podcast, which
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is a little bit different from. From the way that you
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all run yours, which is basically conversations,
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uh, one on one for the most part. And with
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mine, it's more of a highly edited kind of thing. The
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best analogy is actually Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist history
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is kind of the way that I modeled it after, like, an
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episode. Takes me about 50 hours to put it together.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my God.
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>> Alexander Lang: Uh, uh, where. Yeah, because I'm like, I have a whole team.
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I have, like, a team of reporters who work with me, and so they go out and
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they find these interviews. And so to
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actually get it together and to have a
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full, full episode, it takes quite a lot of time. So I dropped
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my whole season all at once. But we've been working for two years on
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season four, which deals with the conflict between,
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uh, science and religion and, uh, science
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and Christianity in particular. Yeah, it's a big one.
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My podcast focuses on why people are leaving the church,
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and science and religion are a huge one. So I've been
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waiting a couple of years to be able to do this, and I have some
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amazing guests, uh, for the season, so
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I've been working on that. But then, of course, the other
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thing that I've been working on for the last several
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months is a, uh, YouTube series called
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Quoro.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Yes. And that is what we're specifically
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going to be talking about today. But I
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just can't help to weigh in a
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little bit about your podcast and, uh, to say
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I'm very excited to hear that
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season. Coming, uh, to the,
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to the podcast universe, there. There probably
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is, like, some analysis that you could do about
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various personality types and what sort
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of podcasts we gravitate toward putting
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together. Because I do think that there are elements of
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your personality that I have seen emerge across
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our conversations that
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suggest that you like to, you know,
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have, um, some,
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some control over the details of
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how, of how
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an episode comes together.
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>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, well, uh, my wife always says that
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if I can make it harder, I will. And so, I
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mean, I hope that when people listen to it, they feel the love and care
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that went into it, because that's
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super important to me. And
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I want to say I really appreciate
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podcasts like these, where, like, it's a whole
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different kind of thing to find people to have them
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on and to have these conversations like you all do. Those are so important
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because the consistency of those conversations, they matter,
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you know, whereas not everybody can wait two years
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to put out a couple of episodes like I'm doing.
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So I think that this is just as important, equally as important
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to what I do.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think both are valuable. It's
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just sort of interesting, uh, the different
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approaches and the different benefits of
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each approach. I think, um, is pretty
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cool. So, yeah, that's, uh, that's going to be a lot
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of fun to be able to check that out as well.
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So let's talk about Kokoro, though.
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Um, when you were first sharing
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this idea with me, you said
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that it was very much influenced
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by the work of Mr. Rogers
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neighborhood and, uh, that you grew up with
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that being a, a big influence in
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your life. I grew up in Canada and,
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uh, Mr. Dress up was sort of more of the show
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that I watched growing up. So I don't, I actually,
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like, don't know that I ever watched a
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Mr. Rogers episode when I was a kid.
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Why don't you share with, um, with
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our listeners what it was that struck
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you as a child about that show?
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>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's a. Ah, it's. You'll have to tell me about Mr. Dress up
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sometime. I don't, I don't know what that is.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: That's a Canadian.
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>> Alexander Lang: Like many children in the United States who grew up on
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public broadcasting television at, uh, PBS,
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we, you know, you had access to
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Mr. Rogers neighborhood, which was part of their programming,
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uh, in the morning hours. And particularly if you only had a
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couple of channels like we did, you know, we, we literally had an antenna.
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When I was growing up in the 80s, we, uh, didn't have cables, so that
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was, that was one of the things you had access to.
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And so I watched this program every
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single day, probably from the time I was
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probably two, uh, till I was about five or
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six. And, uh, if you
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don't know much about Mr. Rogers, what's fascinating
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about him is that he. He was one of
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the first people ever to speak to
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kids in a way that they could really
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understand. But he didn't pander to children. I think
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that's really important to say because he would talk
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about issues that really impacted their lives. I mean, he talked about
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conflict and sadness and anger,
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divorce, death, violence. I mean, even war. I mean, he
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talked about big, heavy things that were going
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on. And I think it's something that's important to
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point out about Fred Rogers, which I love, is that he was a
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Presbyterian pastor. So he
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attended, uh, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
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and was ordained as a minister in
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1963 to
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serve people through television programming.
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Ultimately, he chose to serve children specifically.
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Uh, and what I love about Mr. Rogers, if you. If you really
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dig down into it, he never explicitly discussed theology on
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the show, ever. Right. But underneath every
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one of his shows was a beautiful
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theology of love and
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acceptance. And so back in
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February, I was perusing YouTube,
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as we do, and I came across an
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old episode of his show. I hadn't watched it in quite some
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time, and I got to the end of the show, and he said
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he has his famous words. He would say every time, which
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is, you've made this day a special day by just
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your being you. There's no person in the
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whole world like you, and I like you
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just the way you are. So he would say that at the end
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of every. Every program he did. And
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I'm, um, not going to lie. There were tears in my eyes, like, hearing that
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again, because, you know, as an adult,
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I can't remember the last time someone said to
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me, I like you just the way you are.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow.
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>> Alexander Lang: And so then I got to thinking about it.
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You know, wouldn't it be nice if there was
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someone to remind us that we're enough like a Mr.
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Rogers neighborhood for adults, where every
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so often we could come together and be reminded
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that no matter the difficulties we're facing in our lives,
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we are loved and worthy just as we are.
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And so, for me, I kind of thought about that, and I was like, you know,
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personally, I think we need to hear that message
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as much as we can now more than ever?
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do you feel
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like you were
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clocking as a kid that,
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um, there was a faith dimension to
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what he was saying? It's really
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like, as an adult that you've been
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able to kind of Revisit.
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>> Alexander Lang: Yeah.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: No.
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>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. I had no clue at the time. And in
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fact, I didn't even know about that until I was
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at seminary that he. That that was part
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of his. That that's who he was. And so it's
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only in retrospect, looking back at it and kind of
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seeing the show, I was like, oh, my gosh. And. And,
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uh. And yeah, it had a huge impact on
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me. In fact, at one point, I think this is a really
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fascinating thing. When I was really digging into my
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theology, what I truly believed. I went and I read about
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Fred Rogers theology. And to be honest,
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they. They mirror each other. So even though he
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never once used the word Jesus, he never once used the word
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God, his theology, for the.
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By and large became my theology.
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Which is. Which shows you how effective it was.
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Yeah.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: That's amazing. That is amazing.
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Like, to be able to. To line that
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up so clearly. Wow.
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Um, so, I mean, we're
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always, as faith leaders, we're always
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just trying to noodle
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our way through how we communicate
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faith in a world that
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sometimes seems a little apathetic or even
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resistant or, um,
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combative toward faith.
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>> Alexander Lang: Um.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Um. What? Like,
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do you think that there is, uh, a
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message for Christian leaders in how
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Fred Rogers went about doing this?
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>> Alexander Lang: Absolutely. So, you know what's interesting
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about Fred Rogers, I, uh, think this is. This is a fascinating
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element of who he was, which is that
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when he pursued television programming for children
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as his ministry, the gatekeepers in the
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Presbyterian Church didn't fully understand what he was
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trying to do. Like, they kind of felt he was out there.
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Like, they. They were like, uh, okay, I guess you can do this. But
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they didn't. The. The only analogy they had at the time were
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these charismatic preachers on television. So I think it was
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really hard for them to envision exactly how his
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television show was going to work. Or for that matter, how
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would he be a ministry of any kind.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. Uh, right.
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>> Alexander Lang: Today we can look back on that. Right? And we can say to ourselves, oh, my
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gosh, there's such a genius behind what he was
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doing. The problem is, is that he was thinking on a
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completely different level than most pastors.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
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>> Alexander Lang: It's, uh, like for most pastors, their understanding of sharing their theology
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and faith is centered in traditional methods. So, for example, you
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know, the weekly sermon or teaching a class
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or a mission trips or pastoral care. And I don't
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think. Don't get me wrong, like, I don't want to, you know,
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demean any of that. Those methods are tried and true and they still represent how
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the vast majority of pastors approach their
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ministry. Mhm. But I think with the
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erosion of the traditional church,
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these methodologies, from my perspective, are becoming
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less effective simply because they
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rely upon people being heavily invested in
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their local church. That said, even for the people who
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are invested, the format of the service
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doesn't conform to the way we consume information these
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days. So just like for example,
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the weekly Sunday sermon, so our
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attention spans have become so short.
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The idea of listening to a person speak
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at them for 15, 20,
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30 minutes, however long it is, it just doesn't make sense
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anymore. And so even if you're super charismatic
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and a great communicator, it's just not
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the way that most people consume information
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any longer. So I think what Fred
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Rogers demonstrates is that
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non traditional methods of communicating theology and faith, they
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can be super effective, but you
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have to be willing to think outside the box. I mean,
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he looked at the culture of his day and time and
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he saw this burgeoning medium of
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television and he realized there was this massive
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gap. Nobody was really trying to meet. Children
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where they, where they are, right? Mhm.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
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>> Alexander Lang: But perhaps more importantly, Fred Rogers
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understood that,
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you know, by impacting them
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and imprinting them with these theological ideas at a
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young age, you're laying a really critical
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foundation of thought that can follow a child
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for the rest of his or her life. And as we talked about, I'm, I'm
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a great example of this, uh,
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in my own life that he was able to do this.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, when you
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share those closing words from each of
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his episodes, it does sound like a
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very Christian message. It sounds
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like a message that, you know, we
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hope people walk away with from
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our Sunday services. So, yeah, it's
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quite brilliant and seems like very ahead of its
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time. Let's just put a pin in. There's
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a few things I want to follow up with about,
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um, that
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idea of adapting our message to
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new media. Um, so I want to
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circle back to that eventually. But I
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want to talk about Kokoro specifically
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because, um, it isn't just a
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remake of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. You're
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not working for PBS and
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you're, um, Vision isn't for
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children. So,
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uh, why don't you sketch out for
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us, um, how you're structuring
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Kokoro.
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>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So I wanted to create a show that
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talks about important issues that we face
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as adults. And
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I think that's the driving force
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is that there's always a
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theme that drives every episode. So trust, uh,
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anxiety, curiosity, Regret, doubt.
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So it's, it's these, these themes that, that are
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universal to every single person. Anybody can relate to them. So
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that's really important where, where we start, right?
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And then what I did was I broke
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every show into four segments. So like Mr.
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Rogers Neighborhood, I wanted the segments to be
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predictable. So every episode follows
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the same pattern.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
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>> Alexander Lang: Um, so the first segment always starts with
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a story that establishes the theme. And
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I always tell this story sitting in my green chair in my
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living room. And this is similar to how Fred would begin his
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program in his living room, uh, every show.
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And so, so I tell this story that establishes the
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theme. And then the second segment is usually an
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interview that takes place in my kitchen.
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So this is often where Mr. Rogers would,
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uh, interview his guests. You know, he'd bring people in, he'd be, oh, somebody's at the
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door and he'd open the door and he'd bring them in and come on in. And sometimes
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he'd talk to him in his living room, other times he'd take him to the kitchen and have a
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meal. So what I always do is I prepare
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a meal or a snack or a dessert that
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reflects the topic of the show, uh,
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that we're talking about. So, um, I want to play a
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short clip for you of one of these interviews and just to give
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you the backstory on it. This particular episode is called
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Wounds, and it's about the physical and
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psychological injuries we incur as children and how
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they manifest into adulthood.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
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>> Alexander Lang: And so, so I'm Speaking with, uh, Dr.
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Kenyatta Fletcher, talking about how the
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people she works with, how these wounds can manifest in
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their lives. In the program that you work in, you know,
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where you are right now with the patients who you see, how many of
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those patients that you see have that
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childhood trauma? So depending on
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how we define trauma, at least
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80% of our clients have
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some form of trauma. Um, much of the
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trauma does come from childhood and it
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is physical, sexual, uh,
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emotional abuse. You know, what are some ways that
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you've seen psychological abuse play
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out in some of your clients? So
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psychological abuse, one of the hardest
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things to deal with because it has long term
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lasting effects. There's a certain level of stress that
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is positive and then there's negative. So negative
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stress is high, stressed environments all the time, whether it
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stems from, you know, your economic status
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or any of that, witnessing violence. Um, but
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emotional and verbal abuse is one of those
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things that's hard to let go because it impacts
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your thinking about your, yourself, um, and how
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you feel in Terms of, of life and what
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others think about you, your self esteem. So after
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finishing the interview, then I moved down to
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my family room for the third segment, which is
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I'm always sitting on the floor. And during the segment
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we're always engaged in something tactile, like I'm
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building something. Now Mr. Rogers, he would always have an object
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lesson. And you know, running a church, when, uh, you're talking
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to children, object lessons are really important, usually for the
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children's sermon. But I always felt like having,
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um, something that's physical to represent
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what we're talking about becomes so important. And so I
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decided to mirror this in my episode as a visual
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representation. So the, um, basically the
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title slides for my episodes are always that
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object, whatever that object is that I'm working with.
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Um, and they all have something different to do with whatever we're talking
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about. Now, concurrent with me
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constructing the object, I'm also teaching a
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specific concept that's the linchpin of the
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episode. So for example, the
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episode on trust, while I'm talking about the concept of
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trust, I'm building a structure out of Magna tiles.
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And I don't know if you have ever played with Magna Tiles before.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: No, I don't think so.
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>> Alexander Lang: I never had them when I was a child, but they're new, so
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my kids had them. And basically they're these tiles made of basic
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shapes like squares and triangles, and they have
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magnets inside of them that you can very easily
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build with them. It's kind of neat what you can do with
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them. Um, and so I play with my
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sons with these, with these magnetiles all the time. And so the
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idea though that I use them for, I pull them back out because my sons are
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teenagers now. Uh, but I pulled them out and I thought the
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idea was to represent how trust between two people is
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like a structure that we build over time and how
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that structure can be damaged or even
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destroyed when trust is broken.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. And I mean that, that's
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really great too. Just in terms of like
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all that we understand now I think
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about learning styles and about
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the ways in which concepts are
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reinforced psychologically in the human brain
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is to have kind of those different elements
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of, of uh, how you
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get at a concept. Right. Like to have
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that um, tactile piece, like
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brilliant. It's really.
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>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, yeah. Well, and the hope is, as you said, you know,
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they're, they're not going to remember everything that I say,
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but what they will remember that like in their brain. You're right,
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they're going to link Together. Oh, there was this object,
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and. Oh, yeah, this. He was building that building. And it was about
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how trust can disintegrate. Now, they. That may be all they remember,
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but that's okay because at least they remembered something.
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And you're right, it's. It's having those kind of connections that
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really. That really matter. And then from there, I moved
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to the final segment, the fourth segment, which is in my dining room.
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And so whatever I was working on in the previous segment, now that's
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on display next to me while I talk
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about strategies for addressing the issue. So this
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is kind of like my practicality. And this is. This would be where I
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diverge a bit from Mr. Rogers, because Mr.
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Rogers, he would provide practical applications for
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children. But, you know, children, by
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nature of their disposition, you know, they
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have very limited capacity to change their circumstances.
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Like, they just. They just can't do it because they have so little
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control over their environment. And so really,
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the function of his show was just to make those children, for
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the most part, feel seen. Like that was really what he was trying to do, which
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was beautiful. Um, but as adults, we have more
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volition, right? We have choices in our lives, and we also
491
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have more baggage that can weigh us down. So we actually have things
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that life experiences that have hurt us. And
493
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so the goal at the end of each episode for me is really twofold.
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One, I want to let the viewer know
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that whatever baggage they're carrying with them, that's
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understandable, that's part of life,
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and you shouldn't feel judged for that. And
498
00:23:16,677 --> 00:23:19,317
two, I want to provide inspiration and strategies
499
00:23:19,381 --> 00:23:22,373
for improving your life. And so I want
500
00:23:22,389 --> 00:23:25,105
to play a short clip where I'm discussing how
501
00:23:25,565 --> 00:23:28,261
finding a deep sense of purpose is one of the
502
00:23:28,293 --> 00:23:31,289
best ways to overcome our anxiety. And for just a
503
00:23:31,297 --> 00:23:34,057
little bit of context around this clip, earlier in the episode, I
504
00:23:34,081 --> 00:23:37,065
discussed Maslow's hierarchy of need. And I come back to
505
00:23:37,105 --> 00:23:39,905
that in this section as a grounding point for
506
00:23:39,945 --> 00:23:42,849
purpose in our lives. So from my
507
00:23:42,897 --> 00:23:45,857
perspective, what I think we need to do
508
00:23:45,961 --> 00:23:48,601
is we need to look at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of
509
00:23:48,633 --> 00:23:51,585
need, self actualization. The idea
510
00:23:51,625 --> 00:23:54,089
behind that is that you're reaching your full
511
00:23:54,177 --> 00:23:57,003
potential as human
512
00:23:57,059 --> 00:23:59,867
being. And in reaching that potential, what you're doing is
513
00:23:59,891 --> 00:24:02,771
you're taking your gifts and you're using them for the
514
00:24:02,803 --> 00:24:05,275
benefit of people all over the
515
00:24:05,315 --> 00:24:08,019
world. I think one could argue that the greatest
516
00:24:08,067 --> 00:24:11,067
purpose a person can have is when
517
00:24:11,251 --> 00:24:14,251
they know that their presence is changing the
518
00:24:14,283 --> 00:24:17,211
world for the better. And I think the place where we can
519
00:24:17,243 --> 00:24:20,171
do this best is with the people in
520
00:24:20,203 --> 00:24:23,071
our lives, our friends and our family. Because
521
00:24:23,103 --> 00:24:26,063
when you invest those gifts that you have, and we all
522
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,911
have very special gifts that we can use, when
523
00:24:28,943 --> 00:24:31,847
you use those to improve the lives of the
524
00:24:31,871 --> 00:24:34,815
people around you, expecting nothing in return, what
525
00:24:34,855 --> 00:24:37,799
often happens is you are shown a great deal of
526
00:24:37,927 --> 00:24:40,871
love and appreciation. And that's so much better than
527
00:24:40,903 --> 00:24:43,487
any amount of money you could
528
00:24:43,671 --> 00:24:44,555
receive.
529
00:24:45,135 --> 00:24:47,647
>> Martha Tatarnic: So I'm interested,
530
00:24:47,711 --> 00:24:50,607
like, I think that um, what I'm
531
00:24:50,631 --> 00:24:53,487
hearing across these clips and
532
00:24:53,631 --> 00:24:55,635
across your
533
00:24:56,170 --> 00:24:59,127
uh, descriptions and the segments and so
534
00:24:59,151 --> 00:25:01,990
on is um,
535
00:25:02,015 --> 00:25:04,543
very much like applicability
536
00:25:04,719 --> 00:25:07,207
to the things
537
00:25:07,271 --> 00:25:10,115
that like, as adults we
538
00:25:10,735 --> 00:25:13,367
struggle with, um, that like
539
00:25:13,471 --> 00:25:16,105
very sort of universal
540
00:25:16,185 --> 00:25:19,129
experiences of you get to
541
00:25:19,257 --> 00:25:22,257
adulthood and you've got wounds
542
00:25:22,361 --> 00:25:25,305
and you've got trauma and you're looking
543
00:25:25,385 --> 00:25:28,325
for healing and you're looking for purpose.
544
00:25:28,945 --> 00:25:31,085
So like,
545
00:25:31,985 --> 00:25:32,965
are there
546
00:25:34,025 --> 00:25:36,449
specific Christian
547
00:25:36,577 --> 00:25:39,085
theological principles that you're,
548
00:25:39,675 --> 00:25:42,055
that you're building into this
549
00:25:42,515 --> 00:25:45,339
as well without using Christian
550
00:25:45,427 --> 00:25:48,387
language? Do you feel like there are more
551
00:25:48,491 --> 00:25:51,027
general faith principles that you're,
552
00:25:51,211 --> 00:25:53,835
that you're drawing on?
553
00:25:53,955 --> 00:25:56,015
What, what's kind of the theological
554
00:25:56,595 --> 00:25:58,979
underpinning that, that you're working
555
00:25:59,027 --> 00:25:59,615
with?
556
00:26:00,395 --> 00:26:03,131
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, so my thinking has been
557
00:26:03,203 --> 00:26:05,687
shaped and formed by theology. So that's,
558
00:26:05,811 --> 00:26:08,527
I can't really divorce those two things any
559
00:26:08,551 --> 00:26:10,975
longer just because of, as, you know, as a
560
00:26:11,015 --> 00:26:13,799
pastor, this is just something that it becomes part of your
561
00:26:13,847 --> 00:26:16,847
thinking. Uh, so even if I wanted to, I couldn't do that.
562
00:26:17,031 --> 00:26:19,903
But as you heard in that clip, you know, there's a lot
563
00:26:19,919 --> 00:26:22,715
of theology bound up in that clip. Yeah, right.
564
00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:25,207
Um, I'm articulating a very
565
00:26:25,351 --> 00:26:27,759
particular approach to finding
566
00:26:27,807 --> 00:26:30,775
purpose that is of course resonant with Jesus's
567
00:26:30,815 --> 00:26:33,721
teachings. So if somebody watches that episode
568
00:26:33,833 --> 00:26:36,649
and they follow my advice, they will be living
569
00:26:36,697 --> 00:26:39,177
a faith based life whether they are Christian or not.
570
00:26:39,361 --> 00:26:40,765
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.
571
00:26:41,745 --> 00:26:44,625
>> Alexander Lang: But also like Fred. Right. Even
572
00:26:44,785 --> 00:26:47,473
though there's a lot of theology undergirding my approach,
573
00:26:47,569 --> 00:26:50,537
you're never going to hear me talk about God or Jesus in
574
00:26:50,561 --> 00:26:53,417
any of these episodes. And uh, and I think
575
00:26:53,441 --> 00:26:56,257
that's kind of like to me, the beauty
576
00:26:56,321 --> 00:26:59,145
of kind of what comes out of this is for somebody
577
00:26:59,185 --> 00:27:02,185
to have an encounter perhaps with
578
00:27:02,305 --> 00:27:05,129
the divine or with these teaching
579
00:27:05,177 --> 00:27:08,169
principles that can shape their life where they don't
580
00:27:08,217 --> 00:27:11,105
necessarily even realize, oh, this is explicitly Christian.
581
00:27:11,145 --> 00:27:13,865
In fact, if you told them that, they might turn away from it
582
00:27:14,025 --> 00:27:16,977
because they would say, oh, I don't want anything to do with that. But when
583
00:27:17,001 --> 00:27:19,953
you package it differently, that provides it in a way that
584
00:27:19,969 --> 00:27:22,705
people say, oh, well, that feels like Something I should, I should
585
00:27:22,745 --> 00:27:25,397
try. That feels like something I should apply to my
586
00:27:25,421 --> 00:27:25,985
life.
587
00:27:26,405 --> 00:27:29,357
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean, just like, correct me
588
00:27:29,381 --> 00:27:32,133
if I'm wrong here, but what I really
589
00:27:32,189 --> 00:27:34,973
hear you saying is
590
00:27:35,069 --> 00:27:37,933
that like the offering that you
591
00:27:38,109 --> 00:27:40,765
are putting together here is
592
00:27:40,885 --> 00:27:43,825
very much based on Christianity as
593
00:27:44,125 --> 00:27:46,677
an action based faith
594
00:27:46,861 --> 00:27:49,653
rather than a doctrinal faith. So
595
00:27:49,709 --> 00:27:52,187
like, I don't hear you saying that
596
00:27:52,341 --> 00:27:55,071
you're, you know, trying to explain the mystery
597
00:27:55,143 --> 00:27:57,503
of the Trinity in a way that like,
598
00:27:57,599 --> 00:28:00,031
will sort of get into people's
599
00:28:00,103 --> 00:28:03,103
consciousness without them realizing it. Like, that's not
600
00:28:03,159 --> 00:28:05,607
the takeaway. Like, the takeaway is very much
601
00:28:05,671 --> 00:28:08,567
like these are the, the things that
602
00:28:08,591 --> 00:28:11,303
you can actually do to lead
603
00:28:11,399 --> 00:28:13,663
a more holistic,
604
00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:15,915
healed, healthy,
605
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:18,875
um, fruitful life. Does that,
606
00:28:19,175 --> 00:28:19,831
just that.
607
00:28:19,903 --> 00:28:22,439
>> Alexander Lang: Absolutely. Well, yeah. And you know, for
608
00:28:22,487 --> 00:28:24,695
me, I've always
609
00:28:24,775 --> 00:28:27,727
approached Christianity and Jesus teachings as a
610
00:28:27,751 --> 00:28:30,527
blueprint for life. It's one of many types of blueprints that a
611
00:28:30,551 --> 00:28:33,231
person can utilize. Personally,
612
00:28:33,423 --> 00:28:36,080
I feel that it's a, uh,
613
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,975
beautiful blueprint for life and it's a very fulfilling,
614
00:28:39,055 --> 00:28:41,591
probably in my opinion, one of the most
615
00:28:41,663 --> 00:28:44,413
meaningful ways that you can live. Now
616
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:47,409
other people might disagree with me. We, you know, that might
617
00:28:47,497 --> 00:28:50,393
look at that and say, no, that's not the case. But I think
618
00:28:50,409 --> 00:28:52,937
that if you take his teachings, you put them into
619
00:28:53,001 --> 00:28:55,881
practice, that is going to lead to a
620
00:28:55,913 --> 00:28:58,785
life that is, that brings you meaning
621
00:28:58,825 --> 00:29:01,485
and purpose and fulfillment in a way that other
622
00:29:02,105 --> 00:29:05,025
choices, uh, whether they be philosophical
623
00:29:05,065 --> 00:29:07,937
choices or theological choices, may not. I'm not saying it's the
624
00:29:07,961 --> 00:29:10,935
best way ever. I'm not saying it's right for everyone. I'm just
625
00:29:10,975 --> 00:29:13,475
saying that I think that it's a good way to live your life.
626
00:29:13,895 --> 00:29:16,555
>> Martha Tatarnic: Every funeral that I've been doing lately,
627
00:29:16,935 --> 00:29:19,783
the family wants John 14 where Jesus
628
00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:22,195
says, I am the way, the truth and the life.
629
00:29:22,495 --> 00:29:25,407
And um, you know, really like I
630
00:29:25,431 --> 00:29:28,111
am the way, I'm the road. Like
631
00:29:28,263 --> 00:29:31,183
this is, this is a path
632
00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:34,359
that leads to truth
633
00:29:34,407 --> 00:29:36,961
in life. Right. Like, yes, that,
634
00:29:37,103 --> 00:29:39,477
um, I, I think it
635
00:29:39,541 --> 00:29:42,517
is very arguably at the
636
00:29:42,541 --> 00:29:45,105
heart of what Jesus was about.
637
00:29:46,365 --> 00:29:49,261
>> Alexander Lang: I would agree completely. I think that's a great way to put it.
638
00:29:49,373 --> 00:29:52,221
Uh, uh, and you've, you've redefined that verse in many
639
00:29:52,253 --> 00:29:55,157
ways because the traditional way that people have interpreted that,
640
00:29:55,181 --> 00:29:57,813
of course, is that you believe in him so you can go to
641
00:29:57,829 --> 00:30:00,805
heaven. You just taking the concept of the way and saying it's a
642
00:30:00,845 --> 00:30:03,707
path forward, a road that you can walk down. I mean,
643
00:30:03,731 --> 00:30:06,675
that's a beautiful redefinition of that verse. And I think that
644
00:30:06,755 --> 00:30:09,055
for me, I Would agree with that wholeheartedly.
645
00:30:09,475 --> 00:30:12,475
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. It's a path that leads
646
00:30:12,555 --> 00:30:15,499
somewhere. Good. Um, I
647
00:30:15,507 --> 00:30:18,387
guess the other follow up piece that I'm wondering about,
648
00:30:18,451 --> 00:30:21,035
like, I'm intrigued by
649
00:30:21,195 --> 00:30:23,539
Fred Rogers ending every
650
00:30:23,587 --> 00:30:26,219
episode with this affirmation
651
00:30:26,307 --> 00:30:29,205
that like, you are good
652
00:30:29,245 --> 00:30:32,165
and worthy just the way that you are. Do you feel
653
00:30:32,205 --> 00:30:35,000
like there is kind of a, uh,
654
00:30:35,133 --> 00:30:37,413
basic affirmation that you're trying to
655
00:30:37,469 --> 00:30:39,625
communicate in Kokoro?
656
00:30:40,685 --> 00:30:43,669
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So I end every episode. I do borrow this
657
00:30:43,717 --> 00:30:46,345
from Fred Rogers. I have an ending.
658
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,797
Um, I say, no matter who you are,
659
00:30:49,901 --> 00:30:52,717
no matter where you've been, no matter how you feel,
660
00:30:52,901 --> 00:30:55,667
please know that you are loved, you are seen
661
00:30:55,811 --> 00:30:58,627
and you are cared for, if by no one else.
662
00:30:58,771 --> 00:31:01,531
By me. So that's how I end every
663
00:31:01,563 --> 00:31:04,299
episode. Um, and I feel
664
00:31:04,347 --> 00:31:07,347
like this will get into kind of where the show is
665
00:31:07,371 --> 00:31:10,371
ultimately going within the things
666
00:31:10,403 --> 00:31:13,347
that we're talking about. Like, particularly when you're
667
00:31:13,371 --> 00:31:16,283
talking about things like wounds or anxiety or people
668
00:31:16,339 --> 00:31:19,043
don't feel like they are greatly
669
00:31:19,099 --> 00:31:21,985
loved or seen or cared for.
670
00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:25,133
Um, and so when you're talking about these kind of hard things,
671
00:31:25,229 --> 00:31:28,037
often, and, um, they're not every episode is
672
00:31:28,181 --> 00:31:30,429
really, really challenging and hard. Some are about
673
00:31:30,557 --> 00:31:33,093
imagination and curiosity. There are other
674
00:31:33,149 --> 00:31:35,997
things. But when you're talking about these hard things, I think people
675
00:31:36,061 --> 00:31:38,265
need to know that no matter what they've been through,
676
00:31:41,845 --> 00:31:44,620
that somebody sees you. Mhm,
677
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,557
mhm. And wants the best for you. Because I don't
678
00:31:47,581 --> 00:31:50,517
know, I. In my experience, not everybody has
679
00:31:50,541 --> 00:31:51,985
somebody like that in their lives.
680
00:31:53,125 --> 00:31:55,805
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think, um, I think knowing
681
00:31:55,845 --> 00:31:58,797
that you're not alone, I think knowing
682
00:31:58,941 --> 00:32:01,477
like being able to trace that there are reasons
683
00:32:01,581 --> 00:32:04,173
why you feel this way, there
684
00:32:04,229 --> 00:32:06,749
are resources for changing the
685
00:32:06,797 --> 00:32:09,085
script. I mean, I think all of those
686
00:32:09,205 --> 00:32:10,545
components are
687
00:32:11,125 --> 00:32:13,613
extremely important and
688
00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:16,175
some sometimes really easy to lose in
689
00:32:16,215 --> 00:32:17,075
adulthood.
690
00:32:17,895 --> 00:32:20,607
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, I, uh, I think that the,
691
00:32:20,751 --> 00:32:23,511
what I see for a lot of people is there's a
692
00:32:23,583 --> 00:32:26,095
huge divide. There's people who have the
693
00:32:26,135 --> 00:32:28,847
tools to be able to
694
00:32:28,951 --> 00:32:31,655
take those hard things and start to work with them and the people who
695
00:32:31,695 --> 00:32:34,559
don't. And I think that one of the most beautiful things
696
00:32:34,607 --> 00:32:37,555
about where we are today is that
697
00:32:38,135 --> 00:32:41,097
you can offer tools to people. I mean, that's
698
00:32:41,121 --> 00:32:44,089
essentially what I'm doing, is I'm offering thoughts and tools
699
00:32:44,217 --> 00:32:47,201
for how you could restructure your life, uh, particularly
700
00:32:47,233 --> 00:32:50,185
if you were not privileged enough to have those
701
00:32:50,265 --> 00:32:53,001
things, to be able to enter, to
702
00:32:53,073 --> 00:32:55,729
even know. I mean, uh, something that is so
703
00:32:55,777 --> 00:32:58,565
striking to me so often is that
704
00:32:59,105 --> 00:33:01,765
you can talk to people and
705
00:33:02,265 --> 00:33:05,121
you realize, oh my gosh, it's not that
706
00:33:05,153 --> 00:33:08,129
you don't care about these things, it's just that you've never been exposed
707
00:33:08,177 --> 00:33:10,797
to them. And with the right kind of
708
00:33:10,821 --> 00:33:13,685
exposure, those tools can help you transform
709
00:33:13,725 --> 00:33:16,581
your life. But until you have that exposure, you don't
710
00:33:16,613 --> 00:33:17,797
know what you don't know.
711
00:33:17,981 --> 00:33:19,345
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
712
00:33:21,245 --> 00:33:23,517
Okay. I want to come back
713
00:33:23,661 --> 00:33:26,333
to this idea of
714
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:28,813
repackaging, um, our
715
00:33:28,869 --> 00:33:30,865
core Christian messages
716
00:33:31,245 --> 00:33:34,021
and communicating them in new
717
00:33:34,053 --> 00:33:36,595
ways. Um, and just
718
00:33:36,895 --> 00:33:39,711
give me a little leeway here because
719
00:33:39,903 --> 00:33:42,863
this is an ongoing conversation for us in the
720
00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:45,715
life of the church, particularly around social media.
721
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,435
Um, I think that
722
00:33:49,255 --> 00:33:51,991
what we have tended to do in the
723
00:33:52,063 --> 00:33:54,903
church, and I'm speaking from my neck of the
724
00:33:54,919 --> 00:33:57,503
woods in the church, is that we have tended to
725
00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:00,215
use social media as a
726
00:34:00,255 --> 00:34:01,275
way of
727
00:34:03,525 --> 00:34:06,445
marketing, um, our events. You know, like getting
728
00:34:06,525 --> 00:34:09,509
people to come to the church, getting
729
00:34:09,557 --> 00:34:12,501
people to follow our services, getting people to listen
730
00:34:12,533 --> 00:34:14,865
to our sermons, getting people to
731
00:34:15,405 --> 00:34:16,945
come support our
732
00:34:18,285 --> 00:34:21,221
bazaar or whatever. And obviously
733
00:34:21,253 --> 00:34:23,705
I think that there's value in doing all of that.
734
00:34:24,285 --> 00:34:25,865
But I've really been
735
00:34:27,215 --> 00:34:29,679
asking our team here to
736
00:34:29,727 --> 00:34:32,623
consider also, particularly
737
00:34:32,799 --> 00:34:35,503
with TikTok, because
738
00:34:35,559 --> 00:34:38,115
we've just made some
739
00:34:39,855 --> 00:34:42,315
experimental steps into TikTok,
740
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:45,391
um, like whether there's a
741
00:34:45,503 --> 00:34:48,151
way of thinking about our use of social
742
00:34:48,223 --> 00:34:49,835
media that is
743
00:34:51,015 --> 00:34:53,655
not about trying to loop people
744
00:34:53,735 --> 00:34:55,965
back to the church,
745
00:34:56,785 --> 00:34:58,565
but instead is about
746
00:34:59,505 --> 00:35:02,185
communicating a
747
00:35:02,225 --> 00:35:04,577
message that we actually believe people need to
748
00:35:04,641 --> 00:35:07,365
hear into
749
00:35:09,425 --> 00:35:12,405
the social media landscape. Right. Like,
750
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,521
um, like I, I
751
00:35:15,553 --> 00:35:18,285
am really convinced,
752
00:35:18,785 --> 00:35:20,245
for example, that,
753
00:35:20,620 --> 00:35:23,435
um, that
754
00:35:23,515 --> 00:35:26,459
people need to be invited to see the nearness of God
755
00:35:26,627 --> 00:35:29,467
at work in their lives. Like, people need to be invited
756
00:35:29,531 --> 00:35:32,520
to have language and um,
757
00:35:32,675 --> 00:35:35,443
vision to talk about and
758
00:35:35,499 --> 00:35:38,387
see how the fingerprints
759
00:35:38,411 --> 00:35:41,095
of the divine are kind of smudged all across
760
00:35:42,195 --> 00:35:44,811
our human existence. And maybe that
761
00:35:44,883 --> 00:35:47,757
is a, ah, good in and
762
00:35:47,781 --> 00:35:50,305
of itself is to
763
00:35:51,565 --> 00:35:54,461
be inviting whatever audience you happen to
764
00:35:54,493 --> 00:35:57,493
connect with to just see the world
765
00:35:57,549 --> 00:36:00,265
around them in a different way
766
00:36:00,725 --> 00:36:02,705
without it having to
767
00:36:03,325 --> 00:36:05,705
then also be
768
00:36:06,165 --> 00:36:08,869
an invitation to. And come to our church.
769
00:36:08,957 --> 00:36:11,745
Right. And come to
770
00:36:12,105 --> 00:36:15,105
come to our Sunday service specifically, or,
771
00:36:15,185 --> 00:36:17,725
you know, come to this upcoming fundraiser.
772
00:36:17,950 --> 00:36:20,165
Um, how are you
773
00:36:21,105 --> 00:36:23,285
sort of thinking about,
774
00:36:23,850 --> 00:36:26,745
um, the
775
00:36:26,785 --> 00:36:29,481
platform you're using, which right now is YouTube.
776
00:36:29,553 --> 00:36:31,870
Right. Um,
777
00:36:31,870 --> 00:36:32,565
like,
778
00:36:34,705 --> 00:36:37,065
is the goal just
779
00:36:37,145 --> 00:36:40,057
to, to be putting out a
780
00:36:40,081 --> 00:36:42,777
message that people need to hear
781
00:36:42,881 --> 00:36:45,425
or is there, is
782
00:36:45,465 --> 00:36:48,345
there also a loop around,
783
00:36:48,465 --> 00:36:51,385
you know, and then do
784
00:36:51,425 --> 00:36:52,565
something about it?
785
00:36:53,465 --> 00:36:56,289
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So you're, you're asking kind of a multi layered question
786
00:36:56,337 --> 00:36:59,065
with this, which is, which is, I mean it's, and it's a,
787
00:36:59,145 --> 00:37:01,761
actually I think it's a really fascinating question. What you're bringing
788
00:37:01,793 --> 00:37:04,665
up. So let's take it back to Fred Rogers
789
00:37:04,705 --> 00:37:07,457
just for. Because I think this is an interesting thing. Right. So he saw the
790
00:37:07,481 --> 00:37:10,317
medium, like we talked about, the medium of television in
791
00:37:10,341 --> 00:37:13,053
1960s is a way to reach children. And
792
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:15,821
social media platforms, they represent this
793
00:37:15,853 --> 00:37:18,789
remarkable tool that has the potential to reach millions of people.
794
00:37:18,877 --> 00:37:21,785
I mean, more than television ever could. Right.
795
00:37:22,245 --> 00:37:25,245
However, one of the challenges with these platforms is that
796
00:37:25,285 --> 00:37:27,949
unlike traditional television, whether or not
797
00:37:27,997 --> 00:37:30,845
someone finds your clips is going to rely
798
00:37:30,885 --> 00:37:33,317
heavily on what the algorithm decides to show
799
00:37:33,341 --> 00:37:34,679
them. Right.
800
00:37:34,807 --> 00:37:35,335
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
801
00:37:35,455 --> 00:37:38,335
>> Alexander Lang: So I think we all know from being on these platforms,
802
00:37:38,415 --> 00:37:41,335
content like what I'm creating is not
803
00:37:41,375 --> 00:37:44,351
often going to show up in the feed. What tends to drive
804
00:37:44,383 --> 00:37:47,295
the clicks, the likes, the interactions, are
805
00:37:47,335 --> 00:37:50,095
clips that grab people's attention, which of course are going to be
806
00:37:50,135 --> 00:37:53,023
things in the extreme. So um, it
807
00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:55,975
can be extreme sports, it can be comedians making fun of
808
00:37:56,015 --> 00:37:58,967
people, people, uh, doing dances that people love.
809
00:37:59,071 --> 00:38:02,047
Right. Police, uh, chases celebrities and politicians saying
810
00:38:02,071 --> 00:38:04,959
things that are controversial. So these are
811
00:38:04,967 --> 00:38:07,850
the things that people watch and these are the things that tend to get the uh,
812
00:38:07,919 --> 00:38:10,350
most like that show up. Mhm.
813
00:38:10,350 --> 00:38:13,207
Now that said, there are
814
00:38:13,231 --> 00:38:16,135
literally billions of people on these platforms. So just
815
00:38:16,175 --> 00:38:19,087
because you post thoughtful content, it doesn't mean
816
00:38:19,111 --> 00:38:21,999
there isn't a niche for you. Right? There's going to be
817
00:38:22,047 --> 00:38:24,967
a niche out there. So I, but I
818
00:38:24,991 --> 00:38:27,975
do believe that if you're going to get people to
819
00:38:28,015 --> 00:38:30,601
watch something thoughtful or even theological,
820
00:38:30,753 --> 00:38:33,065
how you dress it up matters.
821
00:38:33,225 --> 00:38:33,569
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
822
00:38:33,617 --> 00:38:36,473
>> Alexander Lang: So for example, let's take you're
823
00:38:36,489 --> 00:38:39,345
preaching, you preach on Sunday. If you take a clip from you preaching on
824
00:38:39,385 --> 00:38:42,137
Sunday morning and turn it into a short on
825
00:38:42,161 --> 00:38:44,409
TikTok or YouTube or whatever on
826
00:38:44,457 --> 00:38:46,937
Instagram, unless you're saying something
827
00:38:47,081 --> 00:38:50,001
absolutely ridiculous like staring at the sun is
828
00:38:50,033 --> 00:38:52,977
going to give you the ability to see Jesus, then it's just going to go
829
00:38:53,001 --> 00:38:55,795
to the bottom of the heap. Right. No one's ever going to see that.
830
00:38:55,985 --> 00:38:58,551
Now if you take that same content from your
831
00:38:58,583 --> 00:39:01,487
sermon and you turn it into a skit where you act it out with
832
00:39:01,511 --> 00:39:04,175
yourself, or you're able to catch
833
00:39:04,215 --> 00:39:06,783
people's attention by delivering the content in a unique
834
00:39:06,839 --> 00:39:09,791
way, then you have a higher probability of getting your content to
835
00:39:09,823 --> 00:39:12,823
land. So I think to answer your question, yes, I
836
00:39:12,839 --> 00:39:15,767
believe these platforms do offer the ability to
837
00:39:15,831 --> 00:39:18,751
help people to examine their lives and see the
838
00:39:18,783 --> 00:39:21,631
world differently, just like what Fred Rogers
839
00:39:21,663 --> 00:39:24,403
did. But it has to be very
840
00:39:24,499 --> 00:39:27,443
different and outside the box compared to what the church
841
00:39:27,619 --> 00:39:29,155
currently offers.
842
00:39:29,315 --> 00:39:31,731
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, because I guess the thing with
843
00:39:31,803 --> 00:39:34,547
Kokoro and the thing that I'M
844
00:39:34,611 --> 00:39:37,523
constantly struggling with, and, you
845
00:39:37,539 --> 00:39:40,299
know, lots of us in Christian leadership are
846
00:39:40,387 --> 00:39:42,795
constantly struggling with, is how you get out of the echo
847
00:39:42,835 --> 00:39:45,011
chamber. Like, ultimately, you don't want
848
00:39:45,043 --> 00:39:47,593
Kokoro to just reach
849
00:39:47,779 --> 00:39:50,717
the same people who are already engaged with
850
00:39:50,741 --> 00:39:53,469
your work. Right. Like, you want to
851
00:39:53,637 --> 00:39:55,945
make a connection with people who.
852
00:39:56,285 --> 00:39:58,885
Who haven't heard that message and
853
00:39:58,965 --> 00:40:00,865
who are going to be
854
00:40:01,565 --> 00:40:04,357
built up and strengthened and
855
00:40:04,501 --> 00:40:07,021
given something good in their lives that,
856
00:40:07,213 --> 00:40:09,665
like, they need. Right.
857
00:40:11,045 --> 00:40:13,485
Not just sort of enrichment for people who are
858
00:40:13,525 --> 00:40:16,149
already, like, tuned
859
00:40:16,197 --> 00:40:18,625
into the good news. Right.
860
00:40:19,605 --> 00:40:22,349
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, well, that's. And I think that's the challenging aspect
861
00:40:22,437 --> 00:40:24,985
of this platform is that
862
00:40:25,565 --> 00:40:28,557
the things that people like, why do people get on it? They
863
00:40:28,581 --> 00:40:30,893
don't get on it generally to think, oh, I want to be
864
00:40:30,909 --> 00:40:33,685
enriched. Like, they get on it to be
865
00:40:33,725 --> 00:40:36,709
entertained. Right, Right. So I think
866
00:40:36,757 --> 00:40:39,221
that's the challenge with it,
867
00:40:39,373 --> 00:40:41,909
is that most
868
00:40:41,957 --> 00:40:44,933
people's purpose in being there is not the purpose of what
869
00:40:44,989 --> 00:40:47,637
we're trying to create. So you have to be
870
00:40:47,661 --> 00:40:50,517
sneaky. I mean, I hate to say that, but you just kind of, uh. Do you have to be
871
00:40:50,541 --> 00:40:53,461
sneaky about it? And so, like, one thing that I'm doing with my
872
00:40:53,493 --> 00:40:56,301
stuff, which is so my show, it ranges anywhere
873
00:40:56,333 --> 00:40:59,293
from, you know, it can be anywhere from 14 minutes to 24 minutes. It
874
00:40:59,309 --> 00:41:02,277
depends on what we're talking about. The, uh, interviews, all that stuff.
875
00:41:02,461 --> 00:41:05,225
I know that putting that up in a big block
876
00:41:05,565 --> 00:41:08,513
is going to do me no good. Right. Like, I'm going to put
877
00:41:08,529 --> 00:41:11,433
it up there. I'm going to say I edit the show so it's a whole show so people can watch
878
00:41:11,449 --> 00:41:14,177
it. And I want people to watch it. But how do I get people to go to the
879
00:41:14,201 --> 00:41:16,889
show? I get people to go to the show by creating
880
00:41:16,977 --> 00:41:19,505
small little shorts of my
881
00:41:19,545 --> 00:41:22,350
stuff that'll catch people's attention. And m.
882
00:41:22,561 --> 00:41:25,409
Then hopefully what that'll lead them to is to that segment
883
00:41:25,497 --> 00:41:28,425
that that's from. So they'll watch the segment and then from the segment,
884
00:41:28,465 --> 00:41:31,353
my hope is that they'll go to the whole show. So the
885
00:41:31,369 --> 00:41:34,139
idea is that you have to. You literally are laying
886
00:41:34,187 --> 00:41:36,811
breadcrumbs for people and hoping
887
00:41:36,963 --> 00:41:39,515
that they will be able to
888
00:41:39,595 --> 00:41:42,547
eventually find their way. Because when you think about it, that's how
889
00:41:42,611 --> 00:41:45,451
we find our way to most things that we like now is
890
00:41:45,483 --> 00:41:48,467
it's a short that kind of gets us, you know, what's
891
00:41:48,491 --> 00:41:51,483
our appetite? Then we kind of say, well, wait, who is this person?
892
00:41:51,539 --> 00:41:54,459
You click on the thing and then they usually have something a little larger. And
893
00:41:54,467 --> 00:41:57,403
then you're going like, to the whole thing. So I feel like you
894
00:41:57,419 --> 00:42:00,373
have to use that methodology, but you have to. But
895
00:42:00,389 --> 00:42:03,293
the other thing is, and this is kind of another aspect to it, which is
896
00:42:03,349 --> 00:42:06,341
hard for you in your position and why it's easier for
897
00:42:06,373 --> 00:42:08,549
me. So you're running an entire
898
00:42:08,637 --> 00:42:11,421
institutional church right now. Right. Like, like, you. You
899
00:42:11,453 --> 00:42:14,149
are. You're. That's, that's, uh, that's your job.
900
00:42:14,317 --> 00:42:17,221
So for me, I can think about this all
901
00:42:17,253 --> 00:42:20,181
day, every day. I can put tons of time and resources into which,
902
00:42:20,213 --> 00:42:23,117
by the way, like to edit my episodes. You're talking
903
00:42:23,181 --> 00:42:26,009
about, you know, 30 hours a week for me to do that.
904
00:42:26,057 --> 00:42:28,969
So you don't have that kind of time to
905
00:42:29,017 --> 00:42:31,809
write to film. Right. Like, like,
906
00:42:31,857 --> 00:42:34,809
you need. You would need a group of people
907
00:42:34,857 --> 00:42:37,365
to come together and help you do this,
908
00:42:37,905 --> 00:42:40,673
to, uh, make it happen. And that's the problem is that most churches,
909
00:42:40,729 --> 00:42:43,217
A, they're not thinking that far outside the box.
910
00:42:43,361 --> 00:42:46,169
B, you know, even if you personally have
911
00:42:46,217 --> 00:42:49,217
the capacity to do it well, you often don't have the time
912
00:42:49,241 --> 00:42:51,699
to do it well enough to make it, like, to make it
913
00:42:51,747 --> 00:42:54,707
stick. Because, uh, it's not just getting one thing they
914
00:42:54,731 --> 00:42:57,011
have. You have to constantly produce
915
00:42:57,163 --> 00:42:57,855
content.
916
00:42:58,155 --> 00:42:58,867
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
917
00:42:59,011 --> 00:43:01,375
>> Alexander Lang: And I think that's the hardest thing about it.
918
00:43:02,275 --> 00:43:05,211
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean, it is exciting that
919
00:43:05,243 --> 00:43:08,083
you have the capacity to be
920
00:43:08,099 --> 00:43:10,803
able to invest that sort of time
921
00:43:10,859 --> 00:43:13,059
and vision and imagination
922
00:43:13,227 --> 00:43:16,107
into, um, I think what's a really
923
00:43:16,171 --> 00:43:19,131
important, important creative venture and like,
924
00:43:19,283 --> 00:43:21,947
such an important frontier for us to be
925
00:43:22,011 --> 00:43:24,947
on. Ah, in Christian leadership and faith
926
00:43:25,011 --> 00:43:27,923
leadership. Like, are you. I
927
00:43:27,939 --> 00:43:30,723
guess, what is your vision for
928
00:43:30,779 --> 00:43:33,635
where you hope Kokoro will go? And
929
00:43:33,795 --> 00:43:36,531
like, a sidebar to that question is like, do you
930
00:43:36,563 --> 00:43:39,539
hope people like me and other
931
00:43:39,707 --> 00:43:42,347
Christian leaders, do you hope that, like, will
932
00:43:42,451 --> 00:43:45,397
access your show as resources that
933
00:43:45,421 --> 00:43:48,221
we can offer our people? Like,
934
00:43:48,253 --> 00:43:51,085
is that. And our audiences, like, is
935
00:43:51,125 --> 00:43:53,893
that part of what you're hoping to do?
936
00:43:53,949 --> 00:43:56,893
Realizing that, you know, a lot of us
937
00:43:56,949 --> 00:43:59,781
who are leading churches are strapped for time and
938
00:43:59,813 --> 00:44:00,665
resources.
939
00:44:01,605 --> 00:44:04,265
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways the
940
00:44:05,485 --> 00:44:08,453
hope is, you know, if we're thinking, like, what kind of audience would it
941
00:44:08,469 --> 00:44:11,445
be like if you kind of start there? You know, I think that for
942
00:44:11,485 --> 00:44:14,333
me, my, my audience is. Is definitely
943
00:44:14,389 --> 00:44:17,381
people who want meaning. They're searching for meaning. So that's going to be like, my, my,
944
00:44:17,413 --> 00:44:19,821
my initial target audience is people searching for meaning
945
00:44:19,933 --> 00:44:22,900
thinkers, people who love to learn. Um,
946
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:25,765
but I also, it's not just that, you know, I'm also
947
00:44:25,805 --> 00:44:28,581
thinking, okay, if you're, if you're somebody who's
948
00:44:28,613 --> 00:44:31,397
depressed or you're somebody who's dealing with anxiety and you come
949
00:44:31,421 --> 00:44:34,181
across one of my clips. Well, that's something that
950
00:44:34,213 --> 00:44:36,597
could really get you going down this
951
00:44:36,661 --> 00:44:39,521
path. That wouldn't, which is why I'm trying all these
952
00:44:39,553 --> 00:44:42,465
different things. So it's like my target demographic is people
953
00:44:42,545 --> 00:44:45,305
pretty much like you. Right. It's, it's people who
954
00:44:45,385 --> 00:44:48,297
listen to this podcast. And I hope that, you know, I would
955
00:44:48,321 --> 00:44:51,113
love it if somebody took a little clip of what I did
956
00:44:51,289 --> 00:44:54,073
for, uh, one of my sections and used it in their sermon or use
957
00:44:54,089 --> 00:44:57,057
it, you know, that's what it's there for. It's, you know, I make it and, and
958
00:44:57,081 --> 00:44:59,225
I want it to be, I want it to be spread in that way.
959
00:44:59,265 --> 00:45:00,090
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.
960
00:45:00,090 --> 00:45:02,897
>> Alexander Lang: Um, but I think one of the problems with
961
00:45:02,961 --> 00:45:05,421
this medium that we get
962
00:45:05,453 --> 00:45:08,453
into is that as much as the content
963
00:45:08,509 --> 00:45:11,397
lends itself to a person having
964
00:45:11,421 --> 00:45:14,245
a rich inner life and exploring these topics that could
965
00:45:14,285 --> 00:45:17,085
really widen, give them an interaction with the divine.
966
00:45:17,165 --> 00:45:19,709
The thing that you have to get more comfortable with in
967
00:45:19,757 --> 00:45:22,381
delivering this message is that you are trying to
968
00:45:22,413 --> 00:45:25,397
cement yourself as someone who is recognized by the public at
969
00:45:25,421 --> 00:45:28,173
large. I mean, I hate to say it, like, I hate the
970
00:45:28,189 --> 00:45:31,161
word influencer, like I actually despise it because
971
00:45:31,233 --> 00:45:34,105
it brings to mind the idea that your credibility
972
00:45:34,185 --> 00:45:37,045
is being used to peddle all sorts of goods and services
973
00:45:37,345 --> 00:45:38,737
that come from endorsements.
974
00:45:38,881 --> 00:45:39,785
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
975
00:45:39,865 --> 00:45:42,609
>> Alexander Lang: And that's of course diametrically opposed to the way the mainline
976
00:45:42,657 --> 00:45:45,017
church operates. Like, we try not to
977
00:45:45,081 --> 00:45:47,833
have personality driven ministries in the
978
00:45:47,849 --> 00:45:50,665
mainline church. Right. We don't, we don't want that in our churches.
979
00:45:50,745 --> 00:45:51,545
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
980
00:45:51,625 --> 00:45:54,537
>> Alexander Lang: But the problem is, is that in the world of social media,
981
00:45:54,641 --> 00:45:57,455
name recognition does matter.
982
00:45:57,575 --> 00:46:00,367
So I think that if you're really going to invest time in trying to
983
00:46:00,391 --> 00:46:02,823
spread ideas to these platforms, you're
984
00:46:02,879 --> 00:46:05,303
simultaneously going to have to build a
985
00:46:05,399 --> 00:46:08,031
following. And I think that in and of
986
00:46:08,063 --> 00:46:11,047
itself is hard for a
987
00:46:11,071 --> 00:46:14,023
lot of pastors generally to
988
00:46:14,039 --> 00:46:16,831
get their mind around. Because I think that if you're
989
00:46:16,863 --> 00:46:19,823
humble enough about what you're trying to do as a pastor,
990
00:46:19,959 --> 00:46:22,943
that's not really your goal. Your goal is to spread the good news,
991
00:46:22,999 --> 00:46:25,751
right? Mhm. It's not about you, it's about this
992
00:46:25,783 --> 00:46:28,667
larger message that you're trying to get out there. But in order
993
00:46:28,691 --> 00:46:31,571
for it to really work on social media, you have to kind of get comfortable
994
00:46:31,603 --> 00:46:34,455
with that idea and live in that tension a bit.
995
00:46:35,195 --> 00:46:38,195
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And where are you sort of falling on that tension
996
00:46:38,355 --> 00:46:41,171
right now? Like, do you feel like you can
997
00:46:41,203 --> 00:46:42,295
walk that line?
998
00:46:42,995 --> 00:46:45,827
>> Alexander Lang: Well, I think before that Viral moment
999
00:46:45,891 --> 00:46:48,095
back in, uh, like a year ago,
1000
00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:51,323
um, I was not very comfortable with that at all.
1001
00:46:51,459 --> 00:46:54,243
In fact, when I started Restorative Faith. This is interesting. I
1002
00:46:54,259 --> 00:46:57,185
remember I was doing the website and there were no, there was like one
1003
00:46:57,225 --> 00:47:00,057
picture of me on the website. And I remember I had
1004
00:47:00,081 --> 00:47:02,657
somebody come in and take a look at it because I wasn't getting any views. And they
1005
00:47:02,681 --> 00:47:05,457
said, well, of course it's not getting any views.
1006
00:47:05,601 --> 00:47:08,345
Nobody knows what it's about. They like. And
1007
00:47:08,425 --> 00:47:11,377
they're like, what's it about? I was like, well, it's about these ideas. And they're like people.
1008
00:47:11,441 --> 00:47:14,097
And like this woman was really direct with me. She's
1009
00:47:14,121 --> 00:47:17,057
like, people don't care about ideas. She's
1010
00:47:17,081 --> 00:47:19,761
like, I'm sorry to say it, like they don't. They care about
1011
00:47:19,833 --> 00:47:22,523
who's the person conveying the idea.
1012
00:47:22,689 --> 00:47:25,623
So unless you're going to get out there and put your. So now
1013
00:47:25,639 --> 00:47:28,167
my face is all over the website. Right? Because,
1014
00:47:28,351 --> 00:47:31,351
because. And I. And that was hard for me because I was like, well, no, it's
1015
00:47:31,383 --> 00:47:34,039
not about that. It's. It's about, it's about the ideas
1016
00:47:34,087 --> 00:47:36,983
themselves. So for me, I think that was like a
1017
00:47:36,999 --> 00:47:39,847
first step. And then when that thing went viral, that's when I was
1018
00:47:39,871 --> 00:47:42,783
like, oh, this is what. It's a little taste of what it's like to be
1019
00:47:42,799 --> 00:47:45,743
in the public eye like that. It's not super fun all
1020
00:47:45,759 --> 00:47:48,675
the way around, I'm not going to lie. But at the same time,
1021
00:47:49,095 --> 00:47:50,511
people paid attention.
1022
00:47:50,703 --> 00:47:52,940
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. It is, uh,
1023
00:47:53,615 --> 00:47:55,887
kind of an interesting
1024
00:47:55,991 --> 00:47:58,195
paradox of social media
1025
00:47:59,415 --> 00:48:02,327
because like, we're always complaining about how
1026
00:48:02,511 --> 00:48:05,103
social media is
1027
00:48:05,279 --> 00:48:07,743
sort of the death of personal in
1028
00:48:07,799 --> 00:48:10,671
person communication. And yet it is
1029
00:48:10,743 --> 00:48:13,303
so driven by the personal, by like that
1030
00:48:13,359 --> 00:48:15,761
desire to connect personally
1031
00:48:15,833 --> 00:48:18,473
with, with others.
1032
00:48:18,609 --> 00:48:21,113
Right. Like to feel like this is somebody
1033
00:48:21,169 --> 00:48:23,913
that, that I,
1034
00:48:24,049 --> 00:48:26,393
I know about their lives and therefore I'm
1035
00:48:26,449 --> 00:48:29,361
interested in the ideas that they
1036
00:48:29,393 --> 00:48:32,097
have to share. Although there's something kind of
1037
00:48:32,121 --> 00:48:34,780
beautiful about that too. Right. Like that,
1038
00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:37,697
uh, that just basic human desire that no
1039
00:48:37,721 --> 00:48:40,577
matter what media we come up with and how
1040
00:48:40,601 --> 00:48:43,027
the platforms change and stuff like that
1041
00:48:43,201 --> 00:48:46,063
desire to connect personally
1042
00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:48,135
is always there.
1043
00:48:48,215 --> 00:48:51,159
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. Which you know, just to kind of
1044
00:48:51,207 --> 00:48:53,687
say, you know, where Kokoro goes.
1045
00:48:53,751 --> 00:48:56,479
Because, you know, the idea is I'm making these 12
1046
00:48:56,527 --> 00:48:59,351
episodes for a first season, but
1047
00:48:59,423 --> 00:49:02,247
the idea is I want to garner enough
1048
00:49:02,311 --> 00:49:05,119
consistent viewers that I'm going to have an audience
1049
00:49:05,167 --> 00:49:07,475
who wants to engage with a live show,
1050
00:49:07,855 --> 00:49:08,215
so.
1051
00:49:08,255 --> 00:49:09,195
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, okay.
1052
00:49:09,375 --> 00:49:12,187
>> Alexander Lang: So like in the first episode I stayed openly, like at the
1053
00:49:12,211 --> 00:49:15,171
conclusion of the first Season I'm going to host a weekly live
1054
00:49:15,283 --> 00:49:17,995
choro on Patreon beginning, uh, in
1055
00:49:18,035 --> 00:49:21,027
January. And so the show,
1056
00:49:21,091 --> 00:49:24,075
the live show will have some similarities with the film show.
1057
00:49:24,115 --> 00:49:26,923
Like, I'll tell stories, we'll have points of learning. I'll probably
1058
00:49:26,979 --> 00:49:29,699
interview people. But the big difference, like the
1059
00:49:29,787 --> 00:49:32,435
core difference is that I want to spend time
1060
00:49:32,515 --> 00:49:34,959
interacting with people who are,
1061
00:49:35,147 --> 00:49:38,087
who saw me and now they want. Because the
1062
00:49:38,111 --> 00:49:41,071
whole point is like, I want to build a community and I want
1063
00:49:41,103 --> 00:49:43,575
to talk about their lives. I want to talk about what are you facing.
1064
00:49:43,655 --> 00:49:46,271
Like, uh, and create this supportive community
1065
00:49:46,343 --> 00:49:49,303
where those words, I told you at the end aren't just
1066
00:49:49,359 --> 00:49:52,135
words. It's actually happening for
1067
00:49:52,175 --> 00:49:55,039
them in real time when we get together. So
1068
00:49:55,127 --> 00:49:57,911
like January 8th, uh, you know, that's when it
1069
00:49:57,943 --> 00:50:00,799
launches on Patreon. And so like 7 to 8pm every
1070
00:50:00,847 --> 00:50:03,623
Wednesday Central, uh, standard time. That's where I'm going to do
1071
00:50:03,639 --> 00:50:06,471
it for about three months and see what happens. You know, if
1072
00:50:06,503 --> 00:50:09,375
nobody shows up, nobody shows up. But I'm m going to try.
1073
00:50:09,535 --> 00:50:12,447
And I think you have to do that because the difference between my
1074
00:50:12,471 --> 00:50:15,351
Mr. Rogers neighborhood and uh, where he's
1075
00:50:15,383 --> 00:50:17,915
talking to children is they have a suspension of disbelief
1076
00:50:18,535 --> 00:50:21,463
that m. Like, to them there's no diff. Like they're in Mr.
1077
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:24,359
Rogers house with him. That, that, that
1078
00:50:24,407 --> 00:50:26,847
glass doesn't, doesn't appear to them
1079
00:50:26,991 --> 00:50:29,935
adults. We do not have that suspension of disbelief. We need that
1080
00:50:29,975 --> 00:50:32,931
interactivity to feel connected. And
1081
00:50:32,963 --> 00:50:35,963
so my hope is, is that, that we. That Patreon
1082
00:50:36,019 --> 00:50:38,491
would be like the perfect bridge that allows us to
1083
00:50:38,523 --> 00:50:41,495
like, create that community from all over the world.
1084
00:50:42,275 --> 00:50:45,255
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, that sounds very pastoral
1085
00:50:45,995 --> 00:50:48,780
and like, again, it sounds like a, uh,
1086
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,435
uh, reworking of some of the
1087
00:50:51,515 --> 00:50:54,011
basic pillars of church community
1088
00:50:54,123 --> 00:50:56,455
into something that,
1089
00:50:56,660 --> 00:50:59,495
um, is maybe going to
1090
00:50:59,535 --> 00:51:02,487
connect people who wouldn't be interested in a
1091
00:51:02,511 --> 00:51:05,367
church community but would
1092
00:51:05,551 --> 00:51:08,023
be very much nurtured
1093
00:51:08,119 --> 00:51:10,663
by, um, authentic
1094
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,231
community and the living. Out of
1095
00:51:13,423 --> 00:51:16,423
those core messages. Where does the
1096
00:51:16,439 --> 00:51:17,915
name kokoro come from?
1097
00:51:19,255 --> 00:51:22,200
>> Alexander Lang: It's a Japanese term. Uh,
1098
00:51:23,085 --> 00:51:25,265
I come across it a number of years ago.
1099
00:51:25,645 --> 00:51:28,397
And, um, it really, it's. It's a
1100
00:51:28,421 --> 00:51:30,865
sacred word in Japanese culture that talks about
1101
00:51:31,485 --> 00:51:34,237
the connection between body, mind and soul, or heart,
1102
00:51:34,301 --> 00:51:37,037
mind and soul. Kokoro encompasses
1103
00:51:37,141 --> 00:51:40,061
what we're thinking and feeling, uh, our
1104
00:51:40,093 --> 00:51:43,040
aspirations for ourselves, which is kind of cool. Uh,
1105
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,877
and then, because that's a lot of what I'm talking about. But one of the
1106
00:51:45,901 --> 00:51:48,397
best English renderings of it, I think is the heart of the
1107
00:51:48,421 --> 00:51:49,025
map.
1108
00:51:49,425 --> 00:51:49,920
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
1109
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,897
>> Alexander Lang: Uh, which I think embodies the purposes of the
1110
00:51:52,921 --> 00:51:53,561
show.
1111
00:51:53,753 --> 00:51:56,553
>> Martha Tatarnic: And is that a definition that you
1112
00:51:56,689 --> 00:51:59,657
give out on one of the episodes, or that is sort
1113
00:51:59,681 --> 00:52:02,329
of built into the each
1114
00:52:02,377 --> 00:52:03,129
episode?
1115
00:52:03,297 --> 00:52:06,097
>> Alexander Lang: The opening episode is where I describe. In fact, in the opening
1116
00:52:06,121 --> 00:52:08,490
episode, I talk about Mr. Rogers. Uh,
1117
00:52:09,185 --> 00:52:11,857
I just lay it out of kind
1118
00:52:11,881 --> 00:52:14,713
of what we're here to do, and I define it for
1119
00:52:14,769 --> 00:52:17,647
people and talk about what Kokoro is meant to be and what we're
1120
00:52:17,671 --> 00:52:20,567
trying to do. So that. That's like the opening pilot is really trying to
1121
00:52:20,591 --> 00:52:22,735
do that part of it all. Ah, right.
1122
00:52:22,775 --> 00:52:25,471
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, Alex, I've gotten to talk to you a couple of
1123
00:52:25,503 --> 00:52:28,015
times now, and, uh, both on this
1124
00:52:28,055 --> 00:52:30,755
podcast and some conversations offline,
1125
00:52:31,350 --> 00:52:34,311
um, I feel like there are themes that keep coming
1126
00:52:34,383 --> 00:52:37,287
up in our conversations and in the
1127
00:52:37,311 --> 00:52:39,795
work that you're putting out into the world.
1128
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:42,955
Um, I think that there's a lot around,
1129
00:52:43,330 --> 00:52:46,281
uh, you know, what faith looks like for the modern
1130
00:52:46,353 --> 00:52:49,313
person. Um, that word beauty
1131
00:52:49,449 --> 00:52:52,121
keeps coming up. And beauty as a
1132
00:52:52,153 --> 00:52:54,785
connection to the divine. Do you feel like
1133
00:52:54,905 --> 00:52:57,793
Kokoro is a building
1134
00:52:57,929 --> 00:53:00,585
of these, you know,
1135
00:53:00,665 --> 00:53:03,409
recurring themes? How does that connect
1136
00:53:03,497 --> 00:53:06,249
to those recurring themes that you keep coming
1137
00:53:06,297 --> 00:53:07,125
back to?
1138
00:53:08,465 --> 00:53:11,005
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, I mean, for me personally,
1139
00:53:11,345 --> 00:53:14,145
I feel very fortunate that I have a
1140
00:53:14,185 --> 00:53:16,993
background in film, uh, the way that I do,
1141
00:53:17,129 --> 00:53:19,965
because, uh, when I decided to create the show,
1142
00:53:20,305 --> 00:53:23,241
you know, most people when we're talking about social media, they film stuff on their
1143
00:53:23,273 --> 00:53:23,969
cell phone.
1144
00:53:24,097 --> 00:53:24,710
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
1145
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:27,537
>> Alexander Lang: Uh, and for me, what I
1146
00:53:27,561 --> 00:53:30,537
wanted to do is I wanted to create something that had some artistry to
1147
00:53:30,561 --> 00:53:33,125
it and that felt,
1148
00:53:33,210 --> 00:53:36,041
um. Because, I mean, the truth is that it's really me speaking
1149
00:53:36,073 --> 00:53:38,877
into a camera for the most part, for. For most of the
1150
00:53:38,901 --> 00:53:41,265
show, uh, and
1151
00:53:42,245 --> 00:53:44,865
that can get old very quickly. So to me,
1152
00:53:45,285 --> 00:53:47,589
I really wanted to make it so that there was some
1153
00:53:47,677 --> 00:53:49,705
beauty inside of it.
1154
00:53:50,190 --> 00:53:53,101
Um, and so for me, as much as I
1155
00:53:53,133 --> 00:53:56,037
could when I'm filming the thing, um, I
1156
00:53:56,061 --> 00:53:58,781
wanted people to see it and be like, oh. I want it to be
1157
00:53:58,813 --> 00:54:01,669
striking in enough that it was different than what most people
1158
00:54:01,717 --> 00:54:04,687
see out there, that it's close to film, but
1159
00:54:04,711 --> 00:54:07,487
not quite. So it's kind of like this in between. And so
1160
00:54:07,551 --> 00:54:10,383
we do a lot of shots that are. That
1161
00:54:10,399 --> 00:54:13,319
are very intentional around things. So I
1162
00:54:13,327 --> 00:54:16,319
did. I'll give you an example that I just really like. I just edited
1163
00:54:16,447 --> 00:54:18,783
the fourth episode, which is about curiosity.
1164
00:54:18,959 --> 00:54:21,943
And in the segment where I'm doing the tactile thing, I'm doing
1165
00:54:21,999 --> 00:54:24,903
painting. But at the same time, while I'm painting, I'm talking
1166
00:54:24,919 --> 00:54:27,799
about Leonardo da Vinci, who was known for being this
1167
00:54:27,847 --> 00:54:30,707
super curious guy, uh, who. And that's.
1168
00:54:30,791 --> 00:54:33,499
And it's a big reason why his paintings are
1169
00:54:33,587 --> 00:54:36,435
so incredibly beautiful is because
1170
00:54:36,515 --> 00:54:38,915
he, he managed, through his
1171
00:54:39,035 --> 00:54:41,907
curiosity about the world, to learn about,
1172
00:54:41,971 --> 00:54:44,883
like, physics of light refraction and, and
1173
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:47,827
uh, how to, like, make really deep saturated colors.
1174
00:54:47,931 --> 00:54:50,883
He, you know, he would exhume bodies
1175
00:54:50,939 --> 00:54:53,659
and like, cut them apart to learn about musculature.
1176
00:54:53,787 --> 00:54:56,495
So while I'm painting,
1177
00:54:56,795 --> 00:54:59,475
you're seeing in the same room at the same
1178
00:54:59,515 --> 00:55:02,347
time his paintings projected on the
1179
00:55:02,371 --> 00:55:04,851
wall. Which, of course, my paintings are
1180
00:55:04,963 --> 00:55:07,795
horrible, like little kid versions of paintings, but there's a
1181
00:55:07,835 --> 00:55:10,811
contrast to them. The point being that there's this really kind of
1182
00:55:10,843 --> 00:55:13,575
beautiful resonance between them
1183
00:55:13,955 --> 00:55:16,883
that it gives you this moment of like, oh, my gosh, like, this
1184
00:55:16,899 --> 00:55:19,859
is really, uh, it's like
1185
00:55:19,907 --> 00:55:22,859
a beautiful way of going back and forth rather than me just sitting there and being like, well, let me tell
1186
00:55:22,867 --> 00:55:24,399
you about Leonardo da Vinci. Right?
1187
00:55:24,447 --> 00:55:25,087
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
1188
00:55:25,271 --> 00:55:28,127
>> Alexander Lang: Like, there's this moment of you're kind of seeing them go back and
1189
00:55:28,151 --> 00:55:30,879
forth and then there's really beautiful music underneath it.
1190
00:55:30,967 --> 00:55:33,903
And so my hope is, and I don't know if it'll happen, but
1191
00:55:33,919 --> 00:55:36,783
my hope is that there are moments
1192
00:55:36,839 --> 00:55:39,155
where people will feel that through
1193
00:55:40,375 --> 00:55:43,327
the combination of writing, creative camera shots and music,
1194
00:55:43,391 --> 00:55:46,095
that they encounter something beautiful. And
1195
00:55:46,215 --> 00:55:49,143
that is a touch of, oh, I feel that
1196
00:55:49,199 --> 00:55:52,195
divine inside of me. And so that, uh, I
1197
00:55:52,195 --> 00:55:54,707
mean, and I don't know if that's going to happen. Like, I don't know if that will
1198
00:55:54,731 --> 00:55:57,175
occur, but that's what I'm aiming for.
1199
00:55:57,950 --> 00:55:59,335
Uh, the show itself.
1200
00:55:59,755 --> 00:56:02,555
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, you know, I have to say, Alex, like, over
1201
00:56:02,595 --> 00:56:04,455
the course of getting to know you,
1202
00:56:05,275 --> 00:56:07,931
I just have so much appreciation for the
1203
00:56:07,963 --> 00:56:10,363
level of detail
1204
00:56:10,539 --> 00:56:13,323
and, um, intentionality that you
1205
00:56:13,419 --> 00:56:16,135
bring to all of the different
1206
00:56:16,635 --> 00:56:19,387
media that you explore, whether it's
1207
00:56:19,491 --> 00:56:21,940
your writing, whether it's, um,
1208
00:56:21,940 --> 00:56:24,907
kokoro, uh, whether it's
1209
00:56:24,971 --> 00:56:27,715
podcasting, um, I just
1210
00:56:27,755 --> 00:56:30,603
feel like you are so attentive
1211
00:56:30,699 --> 00:56:33,635
to those details that actually make
1212
00:56:33,675 --> 00:56:35,855
something pop with beauty and
1213
00:56:36,355 --> 00:56:38,695
can sort of catch somebody off guard.
1214
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,707
Um, and I think that being caught off guard,
1215
00:56:41,771 --> 00:56:44,175
whether people have the language for it or not,
1216
00:56:45,005 --> 00:56:47,621
is, uh, a connection to the
1217
00:56:47,653 --> 00:56:49,825
divine. I really do.
1218
00:56:50,285 --> 00:56:53,101
So let's take a break and we're going to
1219
00:56:53,133 --> 00:56:55,869
come back for some closing questions that
1220
00:56:55,917 --> 00:56:58,533
are custom made for you,
1221
00:56:58,589 --> 00:57:01,325
Alex, because we've talked enough
1222
00:57:01,405 --> 00:57:04,173
that, uh, I know some of the things
1223
00:57:04,229 --> 00:57:06,781
that you might be interested in wrapping up
1224
00:57:06,813 --> 00:57:07,385
with.
1225
00:57:07,885 --> 00:57:09,465
>> Alexander Lang: Thanks. Looking forward to it.
1226
00:57:13,495 --> 00:57:16,399
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast.
1227
00:57:16,487 --> 00:57:19,119
And we are going to close out with a couple
1228
00:57:19,207 --> 00:57:22,119
of questions These are usually
1229
00:57:22,167 --> 00:57:25,063
our rapid fire questions. Um, but because
1230
00:57:25,119 --> 00:57:27,799
we've had Alex on the podcast before,
1231
00:57:27,887 --> 00:57:30,847
have custom made just a couple of questions that
1232
00:57:30,871 --> 00:57:33,863
we can ask each other and uh, builds
1233
00:57:33,879 --> 00:57:36,647
on some of the things that we've talked about
1234
00:57:36,711 --> 00:57:39,385
over the course of several episodes.
1235
00:57:39,765 --> 00:57:42,485
So Alex, what
1236
00:57:42,565 --> 00:57:44,305
is an important
1237
00:57:45,285 --> 00:57:48,005
movie or TV show? I guess other than Mr.
1238
00:57:48,045 --> 00:57:50,625
Rogers neighborhood? Because we've already talked about that.
1239
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,437
Um, uh, that would be a touchstone of
1240
00:57:53,461 --> 00:57:54,505
faith for you.
1241
00:57:54,885 --> 00:57:57,829
>> Alexander Lang: Most recently, definitely the Bear.
1242
00:57:57,997 --> 00:57:59,501
I don't know if you've seen that show.
1243
00:57:59,533 --> 00:58:00,581
>> Martha Tatarnic: I have not.
1244
00:58:00,773 --> 00:58:03,385
>> Alexander Lang: It's about a restaurant opening up in Chicago.
1245
00:58:03,795 --> 00:58:06,547
But oh my God, it's like, it's, it's, it
1246
00:58:06,571 --> 00:58:08,975
captures so many different aspects of life.
1247
00:58:09,275 --> 00:58:12,211
So talk about wounds. Everyone in that show is wounded in their
1248
00:58:12,243 --> 00:58:15,051
own unique way. Um, but how they love each
1249
00:58:15,083 --> 00:58:17,920
other in the show is really beautiful. Uh,
1250
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,691
so it's about, it's a show that,
1251
00:58:20,723 --> 00:58:23,667
where everybody is trying to find their best self and
1252
00:58:23,691 --> 00:58:26,531
they don't entirely know how to do it, but with
1253
00:58:26,563 --> 00:58:29,375
each other they kind of start working towards that.
1254
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,633
Uh, and the question is, are they going to be able to get out of their own way? By
1255
00:58:32,649 --> 00:58:35,353
the way, it's one of the most beautifully shot shows
1256
00:58:35,409 --> 00:58:38,153
I've ever seen. I mean it's gorgeous cinematography,
1257
00:58:38,209 --> 00:58:40,417
so I can't recommend it enough.
1258
00:58:40,561 --> 00:58:43,521
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, I have heard a number of people that
1259
00:58:43,553 --> 00:58:46,377
I like to listen to talking about the Bear, so I
1260
00:58:46,401 --> 00:58:49,297
feel like you have, um, just
1261
00:58:49,361 --> 00:58:52,289
confirmed that this is actually something I need to
1262
00:58:52,337 --> 00:58:53,445
get on watching.
1263
00:58:54,105 --> 00:58:56,165
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's a good one for sure. What about you?
1264
00:58:56,795 --> 00:58:59,675
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I think
1265
00:58:59,715 --> 00:59:02,211
I'm going to pick Hamilton, which I
1266
00:59:02,243 --> 00:59:05,227
realize is also or
1267
00:59:05,331 --> 00:59:07,787
primarily a stage
1268
00:59:07,851 --> 00:59:10,507
production, but I haven't seen it on stage. I've
1269
00:59:10,531 --> 00:59:13,015
only seen it uh, on
1270
00:59:13,835 --> 00:59:16,495
the Disney platform, the recording.
1271
00:59:16,810 --> 00:59:18,815
Um, and
1272
00:59:19,435 --> 00:59:22,135
there's just this profound
1273
00:59:23,085 --> 00:59:24,705
moment of
1274
00:59:25,685 --> 00:59:28,345
Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton having
1275
00:59:28,925 --> 00:59:31,877
really messed up and
1276
00:59:31,901 --> 00:59:34,105
then losing a child.
1277
00:59:35,045 --> 00:59:37,501
And in the midst of this
1278
00:59:37,653 --> 00:59:40,505
just gut wrenching grief,
1279
00:59:41,310 --> 00:59:44,213
um, there's this
1280
00:59:44,269 --> 00:59:46,757
experience of forgiveness and grace
1281
00:59:46,941 --> 00:59:49,793
and it uh, and it just gets
1282
00:59:49,849 --> 00:59:52,577
articulated in such a beautiful way. And I'm always such a
1283
00:59:52,601 --> 00:59:55,449
sucker for music, being part of
1284
00:59:55,497 --> 00:59:58,313
how, um, things are communicated. And
1285
00:59:58,329 --> 01:00:00,729
then, you know, the show
1286
01:00:00,817 --> 01:00:02,125
ends and
1287
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:05,385
um, you sort of
1288
01:00:05,425 --> 01:00:08,401
wonder whether it was about
1289
01:00:08,553 --> 01:00:11,177
Alexander Hamilton or whether it was
1290
01:00:11,361 --> 01:00:14,245
maybe about his wife
1291
01:00:14,825 --> 01:00:17,205
and some of those other voices that
1292
01:00:17,570 --> 01:00:20,545
um, that we otherwise don't notice
1293
01:00:20,625 --> 01:00:23,137
or forget to tell some of
1294
01:00:23,161 --> 01:00:25,969
these stories. There's just like some really
1295
01:00:26,097 --> 01:00:28,657
cool points in that story
1296
01:00:28,721 --> 01:00:30,310
that uh,
1297
01:00:31,505 --> 01:00:33,925
flip the narrative
1298
01:00:34,425 --> 01:00:37,313
and um, just say
1299
01:00:37,369 --> 01:00:39,961
profound things to me about forgiveness and
1300
01:00:39,993 --> 01:00:40,645
grace.
1301
01:00:42,225 --> 01:00:44,961
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's an amazing show. I've seen it live. It's
1302
01:00:44,993 --> 01:00:45,497
fantastic.
1303
01:00:45,561 --> 01:00:47,045
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh, I'm jealous.
1304
01:00:48,345 --> 01:00:50,937
Okay, what about a signature song?
1305
01:00:51,001 --> 01:00:53,457
What, uh, would be a song
1306
01:00:53,601 --> 01:00:56,485
that you would kind of use as,
1307
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,545
uh, an explanation of what
1308
01:00:59,585 --> 01:01:02,365
this is all about, what we're all about.
1309
01:01:03,305 --> 01:01:06,153
>> Alexander Lang: So I think that changes depending on where I am in my life.
1310
01:01:06,289 --> 01:01:09,137
But right now, I would say the song that does that
1311
01:01:09,161 --> 01:01:12,107
for me is Together by Nine Inch Nails.
1312
01:01:12,171 --> 01:01:14,255
Which I know will sound strange,
1313
01:01:14,675 --> 01:01:17,555
but, uh, if you remember Nine Inch Nails from the 90s,
1314
01:01:17,635 --> 01:01:20,363
they were, like this really, like, heavy band. But if
1315
01:01:20,379 --> 01:01:23,363
you. But I don't know if you followed Trent Reznor's career,
1316
01:01:23,459 --> 01:01:26,435
but he has teamed up with Atticus Ross. They've won two Academy
1317
01:01:26,475 --> 01:01:29,043
Awards for the film scoring. I mean, they're
1318
01:01:29,139 --> 01:01:32,107
brilliant artists. And so the two of them did a Nine Inch Nails
1319
01:01:32,131 --> 01:01:34,955
album back in 2020, and the track together
1320
01:01:35,035 --> 01:01:37,235
was actually used as
1321
01:01:37,355 --> 01:01:40,211
the background music for the first episode of
1322
01:01:40,243 --> 01:01:43,110
season three of the Bear. And,
1323
01:01:43,110 --> 01:01:46,011
uh, that episode. That opening episode,
1324
01:01:46,043 --> 01:01:49,003
like, blew me away. I could. There
1325
01:01:49,019 --> 01:01:51,735
was probably 20 words of dialogue in the whole episode,
1326
01:01:52,235 --> 01:01:54,867
but this song was the backing track to
1327
01:01:54,891 --> 01:01:57,603
it. And I've rarely been transported out of
1328
01:01:57,619 --> 01:02:00,179
myself like that before. The only comparison I have is Terence
1329
01:02:00,227 --> 01:02:03,019
Malick's Tree of Life. Um, so I was definitely
1330
01:02:03,067 --> 01:02:06,049
crying a lot when I got to the end of that episode of the Bear.
1331
01:02:06,187 --> 01:02:09,173
Um. Um. So honestly, that song could be
1332
01:02:09,189 --> 01:02:12,165
the backing track for all of life for me, like, if I.
1333
01:02:12,205 --> 01:02:14,453
If I wanted to be. So I. I highly recommend that.
1334
01:02:14,509 --> 01:02:17,381
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, I'm gonna check it out immediately. And, yeah, I think
1335
01:02:17,413 --> 01:02:20,265
that tears are a really good sign that something
1336
01:02:20,725 --> 01:02:22,345
important is happening.
1337
01:02:22,965 --> 01:02:25,181
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. What about you?
1338
01:02:25,373 --> 01:02:28,245
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, again, like, it. It
1339
01:02:28,285 --> 01:02:31,245
can depend on, uh, the day and the
1340
01:02:31,285 --> 01:02:34,141
time. And it's really hard to narrow down one song.
1341
01:02:34,173 --> 01:02:37,165
But I would say that a song that I keep coming back to is
1342
01:02:37,245 --> 01:02:40,225
Jubilee by Mary Chapin Carpenter.
1343
01:02:40,525 --> 01:02:43,525
And, um. Yeah, to me,
1344
01:02:43,605 --> 01:02:45,741
it. It
1345
01:02:45,893 --> 01:02:48,805
speaks of some of those things that we've been talking
1346
01:02:48,845 --> 01:02:51,781
about today. Like, it talks about
1347
01:02:51,933 --> 01:02:54,765
wounds and it talks about healing,
1348
01:02:54,885 --> 01:02:57,477
and it. It talks about
1349
01:02:57,621 --> 01:03:00,469
that. That search for something
1350
01:03:00,557 --> 01:03:03,185
that is sometimes hard to name.
1351
01:03:03,530 --> 01:03:06,449
Um, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna say some of
1352
01:03:06,457 --> 01:03:08,965
the lyrics. Cause I can't help myself. But,
1353
01:03:09,410 --> 01:03:12,361
um, one of the verses says, I can
1354
01:03:12,393 --> 01:03:15,273
tell by the way you're searching for something you can't even
1355
01:03:15,329 --> 01:03:18,041
name that you haven't been able to come to the
1356
01:03:18,073 --> 01:03:20,977
table. Simply glad that you came. And when you
1357
01:03:21,001 --> 01:03:23,993
feel like this, try to imagine that we're all like frail
1358
01:03:24,049 --> 01:03:26,897
boats on the sea, just scanning the night for
1359
01:03:26,921 --> 01:03:29,097
that great guiding light announcing the
1360
01:03:29,121 --> 01:03:31,551
Jubilee. Wow.
1361
01:03:31,583 --> 01:03:32,303
>> Alexander Lang: It's beautiful.
1362
01:03:32,399 --> 01:03:35,167
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I love sort of the.
1363
01:03:35,311 --> 01:03:37,635
To me, I hear Christian imagery
1364
01:03:38,335 --> 01:03:41,239
in the table and the jubilee and
1365
01:03:41,367 --> 01:03:43,870
the guiding light. Um,
1366
01:03:44,935 --> 01:03:47,303
but it's poetic
1367
01:03:47,479 --> 01:03:50,335
and I think universal enough
1368
01:03:50,415 --> 01:03:53,035
that people can just be
1369
01:03:53,335 --> 01:03:55,981
sort of struck by the. The
1370
01:03:56,013 --> 01:03:57,105
feeling of
1371
01:03:57,965 --> 01:04:00,757
understanding what's being said.
1372
01:04:00,861 --> 01:04:03,733
>> Alexander Lang: You know, for sure. For
1373
01:04:03,749 --> 01:04:06,597
sure. Now that's, that's, uh, that really hits
1374
01:04:06,621 --> 01:04:07,785
it quite well.
1375
01:04:08,965 --> 01:04:11,789
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, thank you so much, Alex.
1376
01:04:11,917 --> 01:04:14,773
And, uh, do you want to give
1377
01:04:14,829 --> 01:04:17,501
our listeners, um, just any
1378
01:04:17,653 --> 01:04:20,485
places where they can find you, engage with your
1379
01:04:20,525 --> 01:04:22,559
work, follow up on
1380
01:04:22,727 --> 01:04:23,927
Kokoro.
1381
01:04:24,111 --> 01:04:27,007
>> Alexander Lang: I'll send over the YouTube channel link so that you
1382
01:04:27,031 --> 01:04:29,951
guys can post it in the show notes. But there's going to be a lot of things.
1383
01:04:29,983 --> 01:04:32,975
I'll have it on restorative faith as well. So it's. So
1384
01:04:33,015 --> 01:04:35,431
there's going to be a lot of ways that I'm going to try to get it out
1385
01:04:35,463 --> 01:04:38,175
there. And, um, the first,
1386
01:04:38,295 --> 01:04:40,607
the first episode debuts, uh, September
1387
01:04:40,671 --> 01:04:43,543
18th. And, uh, then it's going to be every
1388
01:04:43,599 --> 01:04:46,327
Wednesday from that point forward for the next 12 weeks or
1389
01:04:46,351 --> 01:04:46,915
so.
1390
01:04:47,745 --> 01:04:50,137
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, good luck
1391
01:04:50,241 --> 01:04:53,233
and thank you so much. We always close with a
1392
01:04:53,249 --> 01:04:55,593
word of peace, so may God's peace be with.
1393
01:04:55,609 --> 01:04:58,177
>> Alexander Lang: You, Alex, and also with you. Thank
1394
01:04:58,201 --> 01:04:58,765
you.
1395
01:05:05,665 --> 01:05:08,441
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1396
01:05:08,593 --> 01:05:11,409
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1397
01:05:11,457 --> 01:05:14,019
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
1398
01:05:14,067 --> 01:05:16,403
questions, comments and ideas for future
1399
01:05:16,459 --> 01:05:18,760
episodes. Visit our website at ah,
1400
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:21,587
future-christian.com and find the
1401
01:05:21,651 --> 01:05:24,587
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
1402
01:05:24,611 --> 01:05:27,603
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
1403
01:05:27,699 --> 01:05:30,371
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
1404
01:05:30,403 --> 01:05:33,139
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01:05:33,187 --> 01:05:34,995
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