The Hidden Patterns Driving Your Relationships with Thais Gibson

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You have a different attachment style than somebody else.
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It's almost like sitting down to play a board game and you have the rules for Monopoly and they have the rules for Scrabble.
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Like even if you really want to have a good time, there's just going to be unnecessary friction and confusion because you literally have different rules for how it's supposed to go.
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And that's very analogous to our relationships.
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If we have a different attachment style or relationship style is a good way to think of it as than somebody else, then even if you really want to make it work, there's just going to be extra friction and confusion because you're operating by a different subconscious set of rules for how to give and receive love, for how to communicate.
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And obviously it makes things more complicated.
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Lessons work to the week to think that the notebooks of military leaders, business professionals, authors, athletes, and coaches, and entertainers to share lessons and help you lead with the best version of your state.
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Welcome to another episode of From the Green Notebook.
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I'm your host, Joe Byerly, and this week we're diving into the Green Notebook of Dr.
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Thais Gibson.
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Why do some of us fear being abandoned while others pull away the moment a relationship gets too close?
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Why do we repeat the same patterns in relationships, even when we know they aren't working?
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And how much of the way we love, communicate, and respond to conflict was shaped before we were even old enough to understand what was happening.
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Dr.
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Gibson is the founder of the Personal Development School and the author of Learning Love.
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Her work focuses on attachment theory and how our early childhood experiences can shape the way we approach relationships, communication, conflict, and emotional connection throughout our lives.
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In this conversation, we talk about the four attachment styles and how each one influences the way we see ourselves and the people around us.
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We discuss how our core wounds can create a lens through which we interpret the world, why two people can experience the exact same situation in completely different ways, and how many of the patterns we struggle with as adults were formed long before we were consciously aware of them.
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We also get into people-pleasing boundaries, emotional literacy, the power struggle stage of relationships, and how attachment patterns show up far beyond romantic relationships, including in the workplace.
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Dr.
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Gibson also shares practical ways we can begin identifying and changing some of the subconscious patterns that may have been shaping our behavior for years.
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So grab your green notebooks and please welcome to the show, Dr.
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Thais Gibson.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Excited to be here with you today.
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Well, this is uh this is special because one, this uh your book, Learning Love, is a book that my wife and I both read together.
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And then second, she's sitting off camera right now, and I'm not sure if it's because she's a huge fan of yours and she's listening to you on all the different podcasts, or she's just trying to make sure I don't share too much with you and my audience in this particular episode.
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Maybe, maybe a little bit of both tell her and say hi.
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I appreciate that.
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Yeah.
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So for folks who don't know what attachment theory is, could we start there and then we'll we'll get into the work that you do?
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Definitely.
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So I like to think of your attachment style.
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Attachment theory is basically the study of four major attachment styles.
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And your attachment style is a subconscious set of rules that you've learned about love.
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So, very much how you expect relationships to go, how you tend to communicate, what needs you'll have, what boundary patterns you'll have.
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And what's really interesting, and I like to use this analogy, is that if you have a different attachment style than somebody else, it's almost like sitting down to play a board game and you have the rules for Monopoly and they have the rules for Scrabble.
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Like, even if you really want to have a good time, there's just gonna be unnecessary friction and confusion because you literally have different rules for how it's supposed to go.
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And that's very analogous to our relationships.
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If we have a different attachment style or relationship style is a good way to think of it as than somebody else, then even if you really want to make it work, there's just gonna be extra friction and confusion because you're operating by a different subconscious set of rules for how to give and receive love, for how to communicate.
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And obviously it makes things more complicated.
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That would have been really helpful to know about 21 plus years ago.
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But I'm glad I learned it at some point.
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So, what you talked about the four styles.
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So, what are they?
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So the first style is the secure attachment style.
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It makes up roughly 50% of the population.
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And the securely attached individuals, they report in their relationships, not just having the longest lasting relationships, but also being the most fulfilled in those long-lasting relationships.
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And then we have three insecure styles: the anxious attachment style, the dismissive avoidant, and the fearful avoidance, sometimes referred to as disorganized attachment style.
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And I'm happy to break those down into a little more detail if you'd like.
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Yeah, I'll start with mine.
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Okay, perfect.
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So the one that I've wrestled with and struggled with is the anxious attachment style.
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And it wasn't it really, it wasn't until like the last six months where I learned about your work and read your book and listened to all the different shows you've been on, where I finally was like, ah, okay, like this is this is it.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So anxiously attached individuals, of course, our our attachment style can change.
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Conditioning is always happening, so it can change in our adult lives.
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But the vast majority of our conditioning and often the deepest conditioning comes from childhood.
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So the anxious attachment style, they usually in childhood, and you can share if you feel comfortable, if this is you, but but um, they usually get a little bit of intermittent reinforcement in childhood.
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So if you look at what gamblers get addicted to, if if you take the really stereotypical example of somebody pulling a slot machine, like and they go and they're addicted to gambling, well, you're actually addicted to the dopamine and cortisol that happens in the anticipation of gambling and wanting to get that win and not having that loss.
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And intermittent reinforcement has been proven to be highly addictive for people in a number of different areas.
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And what's really interesting is if you look at like the neurochemistry of addiction with gambling, that's only a fraction of the neurochemistry of addiction that we have in like love addiction type scenarios, where somebody gets phenylethyalalamine, the attraction neurochemical, serotonin, the well-being neurochemical, and then you get the dopamine and cortisol.
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And so when you look at that outside of romantic relationships and we look at it in like childhood dynamics, you usually have a family system where there's a lot of either intermittent reinforcement, which can be highly addictive, where love is there and then love is taken away.
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Perhaps because parents are traveling all the time, but they're very loving, perhaps because one parent's really warm and the other parent's really cold, or we can actually have a very true and real abandonment wound because a parent passes away at a young age for a child, or you know, somebody grows up in a fatherless or motherless home.
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So those would be the types of things that would create anxious attachment.
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And what they all share in common is that, you know, a child grows up in a household where they constantly fear love being taken away.
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They fear abandonment happening, they fear being alone, excluded, rejected, disliked, not good enough.
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Those are like the big core triggers.
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So I'm curious if that was something that maybe happened in your childhood.
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Yeah, I wasn't planning to share any of this, but we might as well while you're here.
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Um, the uh, so I I think like I was when I read your book and I started going back and I was trying to figure out like what is it?
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Because my my parents have been super supportive.
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They've both been around.
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And I and as I went back, I realized that my dad uh he couldn't find work locally, and so he had to take a job that was so far away that he would only come home um, I think on the weekends or every other weekend for like the first five years of my life.
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Um, I don't remember this at all, but I'm wondering like if that's the thing.
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Um absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Because you know what's actually really interesting is that our deepest development.
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And so usually, you know, when you look at like a child's brain development, their behavioral stages, we get our deepest programming originally between the ages of zero to three and then three to eight.
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And then conditioning is always happening our whole lives.
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So we're always being like programmed by what we get a lot of repeated exposure to that makes us feel a certain way because it's a repetition and emotion that builds neural networks in the brain.
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But like in your first five years, if you're seeing those types of situations where you know dad's there every week or every other weekend, and and it's really touch and go, especially in the first five years of your life at a younger age, it's actually more prevalent and often more pronounced in the impact that will have on us later on in life.
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So that would just fit the bill absolutely perfectly.
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Yeah.
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And again, it's like something that I I didn't realize I would I have been doing.
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But like one of the things that really helped me is I started journaling back in 2021.
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And so, you know, like I'm taking stock of all these things that I'm doing.
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There's like patterns that kept showing up time and time again.
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And we'll talk a little bit about reprogramming a little bit later in the show.
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But yeah, it was just like, hey, like, why do I keep doing this thing?
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Why do I keep doing this behavior over and over again?
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And then I started like backing up, like, okay, like I was trying to distract from an emotion.
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And and then I like realized once we started, you know, diving into your your work, I was like, okay, like that goes all the way back to a belief.
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Um, and so let's talk about what's going on in the subconscious because it wasn't again, it wasn't until later in life that I realized that so much of what I was doing in life wasn't happening at a conscious level, it was happening at a subconscious level.
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Yeah, so I love this.
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It's always exciting when you already understand the whole pattern of everything.
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So, so first and foremost, your conscious mind is responsible for roughly three to five percent of our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions, our actions.
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Our subconscious runs the show.
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It's responsible with our unconscious mind collectively for 95% of everything else.
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And so what happens a lot of the time, and you just said it so so beautifully, is that we do things like we take actions and we don't realize that it's, you know, it's some sort of way of coping or soothing our emotions that are the offshoot or or byproduct of first of belief systems.
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So for example, somebody might, and I'm sure this wasn't your example, but let's just take a typical example.
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Maybe somebody finds that they go home every evening and they binge eat junk food every single night.
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And they then beat themselves up.
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They're like, why am I binge eating junk food?
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What's going on?
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Well, in every single moment of our lives, we are making decisions to get a need met while trying to avoid a wound.
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That's basically what's happening.
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And so if somebody has this big core wound, let's say they drive home from work every day and they're they're financially stressed about work or their job.
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And on their way home in the car from work, they're thinking, Oh, what if I'm not good enough?
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What if I'm not gonna have my job?
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What if I'm gonna be unsafe?
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And they have these two core wounds triggered.
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I am not good enough, I am unsafe.
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They go home, they're feeling this way.
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They're not even consciously recognizing that they're feeling this way.
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They just don't feel good.
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And now what they're trying to do is they're trying to escape those feelings that are actually coming from those core beliefs being triggered.
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And their means of escaping those feelings is to numb through eating junk food.
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And so junk food may meet the need for comfort or safety or pleasure or something like that.
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But really, at its root, it's to avoid a wound.
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And so people are constantly going throughout their days, trying to self-regulate and self-soothe these wounds that they don't even realize are having this huge emotional impact on them because they're usually at the subconscious level and sort of on the periphery of their experience.
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And then they're taking part in habits or behaviors that are often not the healthiest as a means of trying to soothe for these wounds that actually are rooted in their attachment traumas the vast majority of the time in early childhood.
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And and something apart of that too, talking about like subconscious and just going through the day.
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You talk about reality, the reality lens that we develop.
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And I think, you know, for me, again, longest time growing up, I thought that like the reality I saw and I experienced every day, like that was objective reality.
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And I didn't realize, like, right now, like I have a certain, you know, way of viewing this conversation.
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You have a lens that you're looking at at my wife off camera, you know, is going through a whole set of things right now as well, like under the surface.
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So, how important is understanding your reality lenses and um, you know, like the how that's influencing as you're going about your day?
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Yeah, it's so important.
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So the analogy I like to give people for this is definitely the reality lens, but to so people really see and like feel the visceral impact of it.
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I like to give people the analogy that, like, let's say you go into the woods tomorrow and you see a bear and you're chased by the bear and you run away and thank goodness you're safe, but you have to go back into the woods the very next day.
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Well, what does your brain and body do?
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What does your nervous system do?
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Well, you go into the woods and you're not like, oh, I'm just on a nice peaceful walk and I'm not worried about a bear.
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You're worried about the bear because what's happened is that threatening experience has imprinted your subconscious mind from the day before.
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Highly emotional or repetitive experiences imprint our subconscious mind.
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Then we see and interact with the world through that lens.
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And we basically re-project back out the likelihood of seeing that bear again.
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So you go into the woods and the trees move in the wind, and you're like, the bear is coming, and we're bracing.
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And that's great if you live in like a predator-prey society.
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But when it's not so great is when, you know, you're you felt abandoned as a kid because dad was traveling and dad's just trying to take uh, you know, a job and do the best that he can.
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And dad probably loves you as much as he would love you if he was there all the time.
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And there's no difference there.
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But we get imprinted in the way that we perceive that because we feel the inconsistency of love coming and going, dad being there and then not being there.
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And that intermittency often programs people to be like, oh, I'm gonna be abandoned, or is it me?
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Am I not good enough to get constant attention?
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And we get imprinted that way.
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And then literally we walk through life every single day, seeing through that lens of our subconscious programming.
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And no two people are living in the same reality.
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Like you could have two people who have totally different conditioning, and they can be in the same objective experience, like you, and let's say somebody who's super dismissive avoidant.
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And you could have the same objective experience of like, you know, your wife for both of you says, Oh, I'll call you back in an hour, and then they don't for three hours, and you call them and they don't answer.
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And the more anxious person is going to be sitting there going, Oh my gosh, is she pulling away?
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Is that did something bad happen to her?
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Is she okay?
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And it may not even be like that you think she's abandoning you, but you think that something bad happened to her and you're worried about her safety and well-being.
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And that will come up for you.
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And somebody who's dismissive avoidant who doesn't have that abandonment core wound, they're living in their subjective reality and they might be like, oh, great.
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I don't have to take a phone call.
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She'll she'll call me when she's ready.
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I don't even have to worry about it.
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And so we live in this reality according to the reprojections of our core wounds that we literally project onto reality, just like if you go into the woods the next day after being chased by a bear, you project the likelihood of seeing the bear.
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And so that's what's dysregulating our nervous system and causing all these outputs for ourselves on a daily basis.
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And if we don't recognize that that's happening, then we're kind of just subject to it all the time and often victimized by it indirectly in its own way.
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Yeah, and I love I love that example you gave because I've it's like A, B, C, and D.
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Like uh something happened to her, she's mad at me, or you know, like it's all over because she hasn't she hasn't returned my phone.
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And I like I I don't do that anymore, but I used to like just run through that like Rolodeck so quickly.
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And again, it was like before I could even like if anything, I had to catch myself when I was going through it.
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So can I share what you are, Amanda?
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Yeah, okay.
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Um, so so like yeah, so Amanda is a fearful avoidance.
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Um, so we're probably like what the best type of uh attachment styles to to come together is is an anxious.
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Honestly, they do really well together if they both do the work.
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They do really well together.
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But there's definitely challenges.
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You'll definitely have like the you'll pinball off of each other a little bit at the beginning.
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Yeah, so so we'll back up too.
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Like, so for somebody who's listening, um, and I really encourage you to check out um and we'll talk about the website later in the show, it'll be in the show notes, but to check out Dr.
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Gibson's work and just see what everything that Thayce has and you know go take the quiz and see where you're at.
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But for somebody that's a fearful avoidant, how does that show up?
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Well, that's what I was at at one point in my life too.
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That's how I got into this work.
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I was yeah, I was the fearful avoidant.
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And um, fearful avoidance are really unique in that they have an anxious side to them.
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So they definitely can.
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I'm sure your wife, for example, had moments as I did in in early relationships too, before doing a lot of that work, where you know what it's like to feel anxious.
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You've had those fears of abandonment, you've jumped to those worst-case scenarios as well.
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But fearful avoidance grow up with like a lot more big T trauma.
00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:03.839
And so this can be things like having a parent in active addiction, a parent who's an alcoholic, a parent with narcissistic personality disorder, parents who are fighting all the time, like cats and dogs, and kids are put in the middle.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:17.119
In any of these types of cases, and these are not the only cases, but just some good analogies, you get the same common thread, which is that this child grows up in an environment where they never know what the heck they're gonna get.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:24.160
It's like one day a parent, let's say a parent who has narcissistic personality disorder, one day they love bomb, another day they're often really mean and cruel.
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:32.799
Or if parents are constantly fighting like crazy, you're like, okay, are my parents gonna be safe today and calm, or is everything gonna erupt?
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:36.559
Then there's this walking on eggshells and waiting for the other shoe to drop.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:46.640
And what happens as a result of these types of scenarios is that a child grows up and their attachment strategy becomes to basically become hyper-vigilant.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.279
They're like, I need to predict the future and read between the lines.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:20:01.680
And so while an anxious person is their attachment strategy is to constantly maintain proximity, the fearful avoidance is like, well, I'm gonna be a human lie detector and figure out everything that could be happening and decode every moment.
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:09.440
And in doing that, I can then navigate my environment better and figure out how I should be responding or behaving according to who I'm around.
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.559
And I had a client years ago, and I think she's the best analogy.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.480
She it always just stuck with me.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:28.160
Um, she said to me, you know, I could tell by the way my mother closed the door downstairs when she got home from work if it was safe to leave my bedroom door open and sit there, or if I had to run to my bedroom door and close my door too.
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:35.839
And there's this deep ability to become really hyper-vigilant and to read between the lines and try to figure out what's going to happen.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:45.519
But the fearful avoidant, they've had such polarizing experiences with love and connection that they've had really good moments and they think, okay, love is a really good thing.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:46.720
I want closeness.
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:52.720
But then the moment it gets really close, they've also had really threatening moments and really painful moments with love and connection.
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:58.000
So they end up thinking, I really want love, but when it gets close, it's like, whoa, this could really hurt me.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:00.079
And they end up needing to push away.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.039
So they tend to be very hot and cold, very back and forth.
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:13.039
I remember when I was fearful of wooden, when I would, you know, before doing the work and meeting my husband, like about 12 years ago, I did a lot of work before I met him.
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:18.640
But prior to that, every time I ever felt like I had strong feelings for somebody, it felt really bittersweet.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.519
It felt like really good to have feelings and connection.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:29.440
But then I would start getting panicked because I would think, oh my gosh, the more I love this person or care about this person, the more inevitable pain will happen.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:35.680
Because I only ever knew or saw relationships through the lens of it ending terribly and everything falling apart.
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:40.640
And so you believe that deeply because that's your conditioned experience with connection.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:49.680
And so you want this healthy side of the connection, but it terrifies you deep down and it causes if you're full of voidant to be so hot and cold so frequently.
00:21:50.079 --> 00:22:07.920
Do you find a lot of people in your work who've like really like torpedoed relationships because they hadn't put the work in and they were Walking around with either an anxious attachment style, a dismissive attachment style, or you know, being a fearful avoidant and and didn't even realize it.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:08.960
Oh my goodness.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:11.200
Yeah, I actually like really like that term.
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.319
Torpedoed the relationship, to be honest.
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:28.880
I mean, that's where most people come to me from, is a place of seeing that they have just like pushed away the love of their life and they're they chased, you know, somebody said this to me the other day, like I I really love my partner, but I accidentally chased them away.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:30.960
And that was this anxious person doing that.
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:46.000
And then I've had fearful avoidance where like I just sabotaged and shut somebody out and and threatened to break up with them so many times because I was so scared of closeness that I fully, you know, ended this relationship, but like I don't think I'm gonna find somebody I love like that again.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:54.000
And there's a lot of these types of themes because, and it really exemplifies the difference between the conscious and subconscious mind because our conscious mind knows better.
00:22:54.160 --> 00:23:00.799
Our conscious mind is sort of like out of those moments of intense emotional experiences that are coming out from our subconscious.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.440
And our conscious mind can say, oh, like I love that person.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.759
I wanted to be with them, or I really care, or I want to stop doing these things.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:17.599
And yet, in those heat of the moment experiences, we repeat those same behaviors, and that's because it's our subconscious mind acting on those things and trying to protect us.
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:24.000
One more question, and then we'll get up to like how to fix or reprogram our subconscious.
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:38.000
But the like, does it do you see like I know you're focused mainly on um relationships, but I would imagine and that a lot of these show up in professional um the professional workplace too.
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:48.079
Like I was thinking about, you know, like for me, like if a boss doesn't email me back right away, um, you know, there's been those times where I'm like, man, like I guess they don't like me.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:24:01.839
Or, you know, like like relationships at work and stuff like that have been affected by that anxious attachment style, or I they didn't get affected, but I definitely didn't sleep the night before because I had all these negative thoughts running through my head.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:03.839
Have you seen that in your work as well?
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:04.799
100%.
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:09.359
I think you really nailed it, which is that we have these core wounds and they come with us everywhere.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:14.000
Like ultimately, I like to think of our attachment cells first and foremost, the relationship you have to yourself.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:15.119
It's your conditioning.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:19.920
And so your conditioning is walking around with you into every relationship and facet of life.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:25.759
And so, you know, like you said, the boss doesn't email you back and you're like, oh, they don't like me.
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:29.039
And like, I am disliked as an anxious attachment cell core wound.
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.519
And a lot of times, you know, I would have clients who are anxious.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.160
I remember talking to a woman not too long ago, and she said, My boss doesn't like me.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:42.799
And we sat down to really question her stories, and she was so bought into like my boss doesn't like me.
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.079
And I was like, Okay, do you have any evidence for how your boss actually does like you?
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:49.440
And she was like, Oh, well, she asked me to go to lunch with her every day.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:25:01.119
And and, you know, we get so in that, like, we almost put the blinders on and we only see life and relationships through that wound or through that belief system that that's our conditioning.
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.599
We were imprinted to feel that way at one point in time.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:17.519
And and we don't even, you know, it's running us so deeply that until we actually step outside of it and rewire it or practice even challenging it to begin with, it's kind of running us on autopilot instead of the other way around.
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.079
And so it shows up absolutely in the workplace.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:22.240
I mean, you see it across all attachment cells.
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:29.920
Anxious attachment cells often people please too much in the workplace and they get burnt out, they exhaust themselves, they put everybody before them.
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:36.559
And oftentimes they put everybody before themselves so much that like sometimes that can breed resentment long term.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:41.039
Everybody else is getting promoted, you're doing everybody else's work for them, you're having everybody else's back.
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:42.799
But then it's like, hey, what about you?
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:46.319
Um, fearful avoidance, they can be a little bit, you know.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:51.599
I remember when I was fearful avoidant, if somebody wanted to micromanage me, we were gonna have big problems.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:26:00.079
We that was not my favorite thing for to experience, you know, the feeling trapped or feeling like somebody's trying to control you, did not like it.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:05.680
And maybe a big part of the reason that at a young age I kind of went out to work on my own until I fully healed through those wounds.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:11.599
But but we'll see all of those things that we struggle with in our childhood show up in all sorts of places in our lives.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:19.039
Yeah, there's a book that just came out a couple months ago by a woman named Brooke Taylor called Healing the Success Wound.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:26.559
And, you know, she worked at uh she had this like she went to great schools, she got a job right out working at Google.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:51.200
Um, she was like, she said that she would wear her uh employment, like, you know, she couldn't wait uh to be at a cocktail party and somebody asked her what she did, and she was basically killing herself um for this job, and and she realized that it wasn't coming over time when she crashed out, it wasn't it that wasn't coming from a place of warmth, of ambition or anything like that.
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.359
It was trying to fill a wound.
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:59.680
And so she had a quiz that you could take because she has different ways that these wounds show up in the workplace.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:05.599
And I took it thinking, like, okay, I was going to be like the grinder, this person who works really hard.
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:10.559
And when I took it, it came up as the pleaser, and I was like, Oh, this can't be right.
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:16.559
And then when I did the interview with her, she was like, Oh, yeah, this is typically somebody with an anxious attachment style.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:20.480
I was like, damn, like yeah, like it was there too.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:22.559
Yeah, a hundred percent.
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:39.920
And and one of the things that's so interesting, and when people do a lot of like reprogramming of their core wounds and start to really dive into them, um, we start to realize and it becomes super evident how much of our lives was being moved by fear and how much of our lives was being moved by truth.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:49.440
And, you know, I find that so often, because our conditioning is so real for us and so deeply rooted, it's almost like it's the only thing you've ever known.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.200
It's hard to see outside of it.
00:27:51.440 --> 00:28:06.640
That until you actually see, like, okay, these are my core wounds, and this is how I can reprogram them, until you've actually set them aside, we're often living a life from a place of like, let me just not let me do everything I can to not feel these core wounds.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.079
And so I think that's such a powerful example.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:15.440
And it goes back to what you said earlier, which is that, you know, there's these core wounds, and these behaviors are being driven by them, and we don't even recognize it.
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:17.599
We're just, we just think we're the hard worker.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:27.279
But underneath that, the pleaser very much to me sounds like, oh, I'm scared of being abandoned, just like not good enough, which are super anxious attachment core wounds.
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:33.519
And so the behaviors that spark from that are to often run yourself into the ground just to avoid feeling those wounds.
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:52.079
And then we observe sort of like the action part of it, which is like, oh, I'm a hard worker, which of course is great, but you can be a hard worker without, you know, running the risk of burnout, with still having healthy boundaries, with treating yourself equal to how much you treat other people, you know, how well you treat other people, and that becomes a much healthier output in the long run.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:56.319
Well, that's a great lead into the Gibson integrated attachment theory profile.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.680
So can we walk through the aspects of the profile?
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:00.799
Absolutely.
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:04.319
So we go through basically six major pillars.
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:08.640
And I talk about how these are the six pillars of each attachment style in a way deeper way.
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:10.880
So the first pillar is the core wounds.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:20.240
Then we go into the needs of each attachment style, then we go into the emotional patterns, which has a lot to do with our nervous system and how we try to regulate, and then boundaries, communication, and behaviors.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:36.000
So when we look at each attachment style through that lens, we see that the anxious attachment style, their big core wounds, which I've sort of been touching on in passing, are the fear of being abandoned, alone, disliked, rejected, not good enough, unsafe, and unloved.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:44.559
And they often also struggle with the core wounds of feeling unseen or unheard because they're so busy trying to see and hear everybody else, they forget to take up space sometimes.
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.240
So those are their core wounds.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:51.839
Their big needs in relationships have a lot more to do with feeling validated, reassured.
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:57.839
So many people think that anxious attachment styles need constant, endless reassurance and validation.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:58.640
They actually don't.
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:00.400
They just need a little bit of consistency.
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:07.920
So if that consistency and certainty are there, they tend to actually relax quite well into relationships and have a lot more bandwidth and space.
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:09.759
Um, so those are big needs for them.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:13.440
They also want to feel seen and heard and understood in a relationship.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:25.519
Um, and then their emotional patterns, they struggle the most with loneliness, sadness, worry, regret, and they put so much pressure on themselves to honestly be perfect in their relationships.
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:31.839
Anxious attachments also have a lot of relationship perfectionism that's important to sort of dig up and recognize.
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:37.119
And then when it comes to the boundaries and communication patterns, they will often be boundaryless.
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.359
Um, and they can just run themselves into the ground being boundaryless.
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:58.880
And then when it comes to communication, they will sometimes overexplain themselves a lot or overdo things, um, sometimes try to communicate and understand everything about where somebody else is coming from, and then be scared to take up too much space themselves and communicate their actual needs.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:04.000
So they may explain themselves a lot, but not communicate what they actually need or are looking for in a relationship.
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:15.039
And their behaviors in relationships are often to cling, um, to, you know, sometimes move very quickly to uh try to get as much proximity as possible.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:17.519
And that's a lot of how they're trying to cope, essentially.
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:19.359
So that's our anxious attachment style.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:21.680
And I'll just pause there in case you wanted to comment on it.
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:27.119
I think, you know, and I'm gonna go back to like me again, like, you know, the how this stuff helps.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:46.720
You know, I I think like if you if you were to go back to being a child and learning to speak, like you would get so frustrated because you couldn't say, like, I was hungry or I'm thirsty or I'm tired or I just ruined my diaper, like you couldn't say those things, and then eventually you had language and you could communicate and things got a lot eat easier.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:51.680
And I think we put a lot of stock in in the verbal communication of those things.
00:31:51.839 --> 00:32:01.839
But when it comes to emotional literacy, um, I I think that's like something that we often put like we we just don't even know that that's a thing.
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:07.039
And so there's all this stuff happening inside of us, all this stuff at the subconscious level.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:21.920
Um, you know, all this stuff like like these wounds, these uh beliefs, these patterns that show up, we just don't have the the the words for them to be able to describe them, to be able to sit down and identify those um ourselves.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:40.000
So I think for me at least, you know, going through the integrated your integrated attachment theory profile, I think it really helped with that emotional literacy of being able to identify and then communicate um, you know, not just to myself, but but to my wife, like, hey, like this is this is what's going on right now.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.359
Yeah, I love that.
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:42.400
Thank you for sharing that.
00:32:42.559 --> 00:33:00.319
And and um absolutely, it's like making the subconscious information conscious, like all of that programming and conditioning that's there, it's like actually being able to put it into words, and then we can do things with it, like, hey, this is what I need in a relationship, or hey, this is a a trigger for me, and I need a little patience around it, or I need you to do this when I'm in this triggering situation.
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:01.839
So it really allows for that.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:08.960
And and the other thing too is one thing that anxious attachment cells tend to do, and it always breaks my heart a little bit for them.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:26.640
And and this is more people who like are not familiar with this, like, you know, you're in the work and and you know, in this whole field, but people who are anxious and they don't even know about attachment cells, is they they get so worried about being a burden and then being abandoned that they like overgive, overgive, people please.
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:30.960
And then they they have a really hard time taking up space and saying what they need.
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:37.279
But then finally, when they're so anxious, they'll finally say it, but they do it through what we what I call negative framing.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:43.680
So they'll say, like, you don't even care about me, you're not even trying, or like you're not making an effort, you're not being consistent.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:50.000
And instead of saying what they do need through positive framing, which is like, hey, you know, I really need you to be present with me.
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:54.480
I'm trying to share something important with you, or hey, can we work on consistency in the relationship?
00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:00.079
And so positive framing gets you really heard, and negative framing gets you really unheard.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.960
And so poor anxious attachment cells, they do so much and put all this pressure on themselves.
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:06.240
Then they hold everything in.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.159
Then finally, when they communicate, they've never been taught how to communicate effectively.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:16.800
And so then it comes out as negative framing, and then nobody hears them anyways, and they're left feeling like, oh, I'm even trying to communicate and it's not working.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.199
And it's very isolating to be in that experience.
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:27.199
So having these tools to understand your needs, and and you know, obviously, we go into a lot of like the tools for communication and things like that in there.
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:33.440
Um, that makes it so much easier to sort of bridge those gaps that are the differences between different styles.
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:42.320
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00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:22.079
Yeah, and I I think that like what people don't realize is that when you negatively frame something, it's literally like a trigger for somebody's defenses to go up.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.000
Um and like, yeah, I'm like, as you're talking, I'm like, yeah, I've done that before.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:32.800
And all it does is just make the other person upset because now you're saying you don't do this, you don't do that.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:43.039
And that's like it's just it it it like the conversation never goes anywhere anywhere good when when the the negative framing comes out.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:43.920
Exactly.
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.079
And then it usually triggers the other person's core wounds.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.000
So then then the other person has their own core wounds.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:36:11.039
And if we look at like the fearful avoidant profile, for example, in their core wounds, um, what you'll see is if we go through those sort of pillars of IAT um integrated attachment theory, you see like their core wounds are the fear of being abandoned, the fear of being trapped, helpless, powerless, um, a huge core wound around feeling betrayed.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:20.800
So it even if they trust like the person they're with, it's it's this background feeling of like, well, I trust you now, but how could I trust that you won't change in 10 years or 20 years?
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.840
And it's sort of this like not trusting the future or the potential of something bad happening.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:31.199
So big betrayal core wound, unworthiness core wound is a big one for fearful avoidance.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:38.719
And even this I am bad core wound where they feel the need often to overexplain themselves and prove their innocence and and uh are sort of worried about being punished.
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:46.960
And so, so there's this sense of they have the anxious wounds and then they have the avoidance side, but then they have their own wounds that are often coming up as triggers.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.280
And so that's from the core wound perspective.
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:52.960
The needs of a fearful avoidant are really interesting.
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.719
They need on one side a lot of um love and connection.
00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:58.880
They want to have emotional depth with somebody.
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:05.519
They're not really good at being surface level with people, they want like depth of connection, emotional presence.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:13.679
Um, and they really at the same time have this other part of them where they want to feel like they can have their freedom and independence and autonomy and they like novelty.
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:22.639
And so they they have these sort of competing needs in a sense, where they want depth of closeness, but they also want to really have their independence and a relationship to themselves.
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:31.440
And then their big emotions they try to tend to struggle with the most are often hurt and anger, um, and sometimes frustration and guilt and shame.
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:35.440
And uh their behaviors and relationships are to be very hot and cold.
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:41.920
They're often boundaryless until they hit a tipping point, and then they set the most strong boundaries all at once.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:46.159
Very all or nothing with their boundaries and quite all or nothing with their communication.
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:52.400
They'll hold everything in, not say anything, and then they'll hit a tipping point, and then they'll say everything at once and kind of unload.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.440
And um, I'll just speak for myself when I was fearful of wooden.
00:37:55.679 --> 00:38:06.800
I used to do this thing where I would not say anything, and then, you know, I would hit a frustration point and I would just say, Yeah, well, two days ago you did this, and three days before that you did that, and six days before that, this happened.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:08.480
And then you kind of offload.
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:12.800
And of course, that doesn't help any relationship and it's not constructive at all.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:22.320
And so, you know, you get locked in these cycles, and then fearful avoidance, they really oscillate behaviorally between wanting closeness and trying to really pull somebody close.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.519
And then when they're too close, they're like, Oh, get back, you're too close.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:30.239
And there's a lot of intermittent reinforcement that often follows that for fearful avoidance.
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.400
Yeah, we actually we had this conversation um, I think like yesterday or two days ago.
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:39.519
Um, we were like we're reading a book called Love Every Day, which is a really great book.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:54.960
It's got um like a daily uh intention, it goes everything from stuff that happened to you in childhood to uh and how that shows up in relationships to conversations about sex to um just you know different behaviors, communication styles, whatever.
00:38:55.039 --> 00:39:01.280
But the what was actually talking about was the thing that you were just saying, and it was like the light switch versus the dimmer.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:24.960
And so just you know, if if recognizing to be able to communicate that like hey, it's kind of if you like somebody hits a boundary instead of that just explosive like this, this, this, this, no more, you know, whatever, is recognizing that that that light switch, flipping that and you know, setting a hard boundary is going to create a lot of friction in the relationship.
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:35.519
So just the need to one, know that that's gonna create a lot of friction, and two, uh, you know, to almost treat it like a a dimmer switch to be able to like move into that boundary.
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:37.119
So absolutely.
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:38.239
I love that analogy.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:46.960
And what I find for a lot of fearful avoidance is that it's this, you know, I'll say to fearful avoidance, like, oh, how good are you at setting boundaries?
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:49.440
And they'll always, they'll almost always say the same thing.
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:51.440
They say, I'm good at setting boundaries.
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:53.119
I can set a boundary when I need to.
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:58.639
And then I'm like, okay, now tell me how good you are at setting boundaries, not from a place of anger.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:03.920
And they'll be like, well, you know, maybe not that good.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:12.239
And and I always say, okay, well, if you had to set a boundary from a place of anger, there were a lot of boundaries you first didn't set, a lot of things you first didn't say.
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:17.360
And there's a huge and actually work in our programs with people on this who are fearful avoidant, like in assertiveness training.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:20.639
Assertiveness is like in real time, no, that's the no for me.
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:21.119
No, thank you.
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:23.760
No, I don't want to do that, or hey, that's not comfortable for me.
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.239
And just being able to vocalize it in real time.
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.800
But when we hold something in for so long, then we hit this boiling point.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.719
And by the time you're setting a boundary from anger, then first of all, it's not constructive.
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.559
And second of all, the person doesn't understand all the boundaries that were first violated.
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:42.480
So you can't even like get seen or get known by your partner or loved ones.
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:50.079
And so it's actually a symptom, in my opinion, of actually not being very good at healthy assertiveness in real time.
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:56.079
And there's a huge difference between, you know, setting a boundary from anger versus just setting a boundary in in real time as a whole.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:04.159
And as an anxious attachment style, like the first thought that pops into my head is like, if I set this boundary, this person won't like me anymore.
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:09.840
And that I mean, like before I started doing the work, that's crazy.
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:17.039
Like, again, that's like that was at a level that like I didn't even realize that like that was there.
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:17.599
Yeah.
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:18.400
Exactly.
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:19.679
And so it's so interesting.
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:25.679
So in our what I get people to do, and the order really matters, is like we start with core wound reprogramming first.
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:35.920
And I'll go into the dismissive avoidant profile, but but the reason we start with core wound reprogramming first is because um when we get so I give this acronym C N E B C B.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.679
So core wounds, needs, emotional patterns, boundaries, communication, behaviors.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:41.920
And we have to rewire all six of those pillars.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.679
And it sounds like a lot when you oh, six pillars of rewiring, but like it's they're very simple.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:47.679
There's sort of these 21-day cycles of rewiring.
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:48.960
It takes two to five minutes a day.
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:50.960
It's not as intense as it sounds.
00:41:51.199 --> 00:42:00.559
But often when we get to boundaries, every reason that somebody struggles with boundaries, if they consciously understand boundaries, oh, it's how, you know, boundaries are healthy, they're good, I get it.
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:02.639
But then subconsciously they don't follow through.
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.880
It's because of a core wound blocking the boundary.
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:10.800
So exactly what you just said, for anxious people, it's like, oh, well, if I set a boundary, I'll be disliked or abandoned.
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:15.840
Or for fearful avoidance, they're like, oh, if I set a boundary, then somebody will think I'm unworthy.
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:19.760
Or, you know, then they'll they won't need me and they'll betray me.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:33.760
And so, so everything comes from this core wound first, which is why healing the core wounds first then allows you to move to the proceeding pillars with a lot more ease and flow rather than it feeling like this kind of push-pull cycle again that we resort back to.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:42.960
And you we talked about it earlier, but like I think that's the other thing is recognizing too, is is your coping mechanisms that you have.
00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:55.760
I because I mean, I pretty much I'm I would imagine that everybody that you work with, um, you know, like they didn't realize that this was my coping mechanism when they like before they started putting in the work.
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:56.960
Absolutely.
00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:57.280
Yeah.
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:02.639
And and coping mechanisms are coming from that place, like is a lot of the behaviors that drive us.
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:05.840
And that's what's really interesting is when you start with C and you end on B.
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:09.840
So C and E B C be the core wounds first and the boundary and the behaviors last.
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:23.920
What's really interesting is that like when you rewire the core wounds, by the time you get to behavioral reprogramming later on, um, a lot of times you don't need it anymore because a lot of times what was happening is we were doing these things because of a core wound to begin with.
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:26.719
So somebody has the core wound of feeling not good enough.
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:31.599
And maybe as a result of that, they're like people pleasing into oblivion, like we were talking about.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:36.639
And then when they rewire that core wound, they're like, oh, I actually do feel good enough to take up space.
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:46.400
And so they start that that behavior starts to shift and come back into balance where, you know, they still may want to grow and and do these different things, but it's coming from truth instead of fear.
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.800
And that helps us to stay much more in balance and centered around how we're showing up.
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:53.920
So yeah, exactly to your point, it makes a big difference.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:55.920
Um, and then oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:56.559
No, go ahead.
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:56.880
Go ahead.
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.840
I was just gonna say, and I keep leaving out the dismissive avoiding.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.519
So I'll I'll maybe just give a quick um synopsis of the dismissal void.
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:05.360
But did you want to say anything before I No, go ahead.
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:05.920
Go for it.
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:06.400
Yeah.
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:08.639
So just the last one, because I left them out.
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:15.840
The dismissive avoidant, um, their profile is that they tend to be individuals who grew up with more childhood emotional neglect.
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:19.039
And sometimes it's really overt, like parents are never home.
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:28.159
But a lot of times it's a lot more subdued where, you know, kids grow up in a home where, you know, parents are structured and ordered and foods on the table at the same time every day.
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.440
But, you know, the parents are not attuned to the kids.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:35.679
And if the kids do cry or express emotion, it's like, oh, don't be a crybaby, get out of here.
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:44.639
And there can be a little bit of shaming, but if it's consistent across time, a child just grows up in an environment thinking, like, oh, this emotional, vulnerable part of me is shameful.
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:47.519
And it's deeply, fundamentally flawed or defective.
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:58.800
And so they grow up having these huge fears of being deeply seen and of having emotional intimacy because they think that that emotional intimacy is just going to get them seen as shameful, defective, weak.
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:02.480
And they feel a little bit humiliated by that, quite honestly.
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:18.559
And so dismissive avoidance, they often have the core wounds of being shameful, defective, weak, unsafe if they're emotionally vulnerable, not physically unsafe, but very emotionally unsafe if they have to open up and they just go into this like dorsal veil shutdown from a nervous system perspective.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:27.280
And then they also struggle in relationships to not feel trapped or engulfed or helpless or powerless if they have to really invest long term.
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.239
And that makes them very commitment-fearing as adults.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:43.440
And so we'll often see dismissive avoidance be individuals who show up in relationships early, but as soon as they actually attach to somebody and develop real feelings, they start trying to push away and sabotage just to feel safe and in control again.
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:46.400
And so those core wounds are driving so much of their behaviors.
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:58.639
And when we look at their big needs, they actually need a lot of obviously freedom, independence, autonomy, but they also need a lot of appreciation and acknowledgement for small things in relationships, like, hey, thanks for taking out the garbage.
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:01.039
Thanks for showing up with consistency.
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.360
Um, and they also need a lot of acceptance.
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:08.960
They feel very unsafe unless they feel like somebody accepts them for who they are and empathizes with them.
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:11.280
So those are big attachment needs that they have.
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:25.199
And then a lot of their coping mechanisms in relationships are to create distance that makes them feel safe and in control, to stonewall, to dismiss, to avoid things, um, and to really rely on creature comforts in relationships.
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:27.760
So often numbing out, self-avoiding.
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:34.480
And a big part of that is that they grew up learning to soothe through things because they weren't taught how to soothe with and through people.
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:44.800
And so we see a lot of dismissive avoidance really struggle with sabotaging relationships long term, and they struggle to communicate and be vulnerable and open, and they set too extreme of boundaries.
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.199
And so that's a lot of like their profile.
00:46:47.599 --> 00:47:04.880
And I think I I read recently in a BBC article that you were interviewed for, um, like where you'll see dismissive avoidance completely walk away from like a you know 10, 20, 30 year marriage and just catch their partners off guard.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:08.000
Unfortunately, it happens quite frequently.
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:20.400
And, you know, quite frequently, I don't mean like, oh, you should expect it if you're with an avoidant, but a lot of times I've seen this in maybe about 20% of marriages is a dismissive avoidant retreats, retreats, retreats.
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:31.119
Because they are so out of relationship to their own emotions, they often won't even feel or recognize that they've hit a breaking point until that breaking point becomes so strong for them.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:33.199
And it sort of hits them like a ton of bricks.
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:34.639
And then they'll walk away.
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:39.440
And often somebody on the receiving end of that feels like the rug was just pulled out from underneath them.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.559
Because if somebody is lacking so profoundly in their own emotional literacy, they don't even know how to approach.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:50.000
And obviously, dismissive winter also avoiding this type of communication.
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:55.039
They don't know how to approach a partner and say, hey, you know, XYZ is not going well.
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:55.920
Can we work on it?
00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:58.800
That's not even like in it's it's almost like an unknown unknown.
00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.519
They don't even know that there's something they should be saying.
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:10.239
And so they don't have the capacity to do so, and it makes it a very unsolvable problem if they're not aware of their attachment patterns and relationships.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:17.119
Well, is it I I'm I think I know the answer to this, but like, is it I know that it changes over time.
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:34.559
Um, and we were you know, we're talking about reprogramming, but like you know, if I was if I had anxious, like my anxious attachment style, let's just say like um, you know, like Amanda and I, we we didn't work out, like I'm going to carry this into the next relationship.
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:41.119
Like it may start out great at first, but eventually, like this is going to become an issue again.
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:49.519
So I guess what I'm trying to say is like it's not two people, their interactions together, like you were saying earlier, like it's it's the individual.
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:56.320
So unless you put in the work, um, this is going to continue to affect you throughout your life, right?
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:57.840
100%.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:05.039
And you know, you can have certain cases where people may push each other's buttons a little bit more.
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:25.840
For example, if you have somebody who's a full dismissive avoidance and then somebody who's really anxiously attached, the dismissive avoidance obviously gonna trigger the anxious attachment style in many cases a little earlier and a little more because they're just so pulled back so much more pervasively than, for example, a fearful avoidant who can be really available and really connected, but more hot and cold.
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:29.440
And so, you know, they're gonna push each other's buttons a little bit more.
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:34.480
And those pairings, you know, different pairings can have a little bit more challenges within them.
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:39.199
But ultimately, like those things, exactly to your point, that's our conditioning.
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:43.920
And so we're bringing it in relationship to relationship until we actually learn to move through it.
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:49.199
So, how do you, if you have this core wound, um, how do you neutralize it?
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:50.960
Yeah, good question.
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:55.199
So, first things first is that we are not born with these core wounds.
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:56.719
They do get conditioned into us.
00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:02.159
And so that's the power and the beauty of the fact that we have neuroplasticity that our brains can change.
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:09.280
And so, number one, I like to give people there's there's you know a lot of different ways to rewire your subconscious mind.
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:10.559
I have about 21 tools.
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:13.840
I have a course I made once it was like 21 ways to rewire your subconscious mind.
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:21.199
So there's a lot, but I love to give this starting tool because it's really simple and it's really tangible and it delivers really high quality results.
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:25.039
So the first step is to take the core wound and find its opposite.
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:28.639
So, very simply, if somebody says, I am not good enough, I am good enough.
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:33.119
I will be betrayed, I can trust, I will be abandoned, I have can, I can have connection.
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:36.880
So we find the opposite, like an antonym basically, of the core wound.
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:43.280
Second step is I don't believe in affirmations because our core wounds are not conscious.
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:48.480
Nobody wakes up and says, today I'm gonna tell myself all day long I'm not good enough and see how I feel.
00:50:48.639 --> 00:50:51.039
Like these are subconscious wounds, they're autopilot thoughts.
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:55.920
We're often not even aware that they've they've come up for us until we really, really feel the emotion from them.
00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:04.719
And so um, we have to speak in the language of the subconscious so we can reach the level at which the core wound exists.
00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:11.199
And what's really interesting is that your conscious mind speaks language, but your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images.
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:16.159
And so if I say to you, okay, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant.
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:21.360
Like you, your conscious mind hears you not, but you probably flash an image of a pink elephant.
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:26.800
And so you you can see there, your conscious mind hears the language, but your subconscious is speaking in that imagery.
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:27.920
It sees the image.
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:34.239
And so what we want to do is we have to leverage for step two, emotion and imagery.
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:40.239
And what's interesting is that every memory we ever have is just basically a container of emotions and images.
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:50.000
If you think back to your favorite childhood memory and you're playing at the beach, you might see the images of the sand and the ocean and feel the emotion of having fun and having a great time.
00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:55.199
So we can leverage memory to land at the subconscious level of mind.
00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.079
So it reaches the level where the core wound exists.
00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:03.599
So it's a lot of information for step two, but to summarize it, what we're doing is step one, I am not good enough.
00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:04.480
What's its opposite?
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:05.280
I am good enough.
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.719
Step two, 10 memories of times we actually did feel good enough.
00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:16.320
And by leveraging memory, it is actually linguistically relevant to the subconscious level of mind.
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:18.320
Our subconscious hears it and picks up on it.
00:52:18.559 --> 00:52:22.960
So we might say, Oh, I felt good enough three days ago when I had that hard conversation with somebody at work.
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:27.679
Oh, I felt good enough, you know, six weeks before that when I really showed up and worked through a hard conflict.
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:35.440
And when we bring up those memories, we see ourselves visually in that memory and we feel a little bit of pride or a little bit of a good feeling.
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:44.480
And repetition, the reason we come up with 10 is repetition of emotion and imagery is actually what fires and wires neural networks in our brain.
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:51.760
And so when we're leveraging that, we start to get this sense of, oh, we're we're building new neural networks at a subconscious level of mind.
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:59.199
So then our third step here is what we want to do is once we have those 10 memories, we want to record ourselves reading them out loud.
00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:03.760
And we want to listen back for 21 days in a suggestible state.
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:07.119
So suggestible state means when your brain is producing more alpha brain waves.
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:14.800
It's actually the brain waves we're producing up on majority, up until the age of eight years old, making us so suggestible, like we're little sponges as kids.
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:22.559
And so what we're doing is we're leveraging, hey, when we're in this alpha brainwave mode, our subconscious sponges up information more quickly and more deeply.
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:27.119
And that's usually in the first hour that you wake up or the last hour before you go to bed.
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:33.519
So now to summarize all that, you know, intense information just into three simple steps, find your core wound and its opposite.
00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:37.920
Come up with 10 pieces of memory to support the new idea, the opposite of the core wound.
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:40.960
Record them down, listen back in the first hour that you wake up.
00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.000
It takes about two to five minutes a day, do it for 21 days.
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:50.320
And when we're listening back, we want to feel about it in our bodies and see the images as much as possible in our mind's eye.
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:52.559
That's penetrating the subconscious mind.
00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:55.599
And we're actually building neural pathways over time.
00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:58.239
And neural pathways are like muscles, they atrophy.
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:02.400
So you don't work up your, your, your bicep, you don't work out your bicep, it shrinks.
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:16.320
When we divest from those old patterns of telling the story we're not good enough, and we invest in seeing and feeling how we are, that's actually what's really driving the process home so that we're not caught in that same level of belief all the time about ourselves.
00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:32.239
And I and I think like it's crazy before um to see the con like the contrast within myself, you know, like if somebody doesn't call me back, I'm no longer going through like this person hates me, um, you know, something bad happened to them or whatever.
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:33.679
Like it's just they're not calling me back.
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:41.840
Like, and so I think this is probably the perfect time to what is life like if you have a secure attachment style.
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:43.599
Yeah, great question.
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:45.920
I'm gonna just tell you from really personal experience.
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:54.800
I mean, like I can tell you people's other experiences, but when I was fearful avoidant, and like this is massive for me, like I'm very passionate about sharing this.
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:57.360
I was always in some kind of drama in my mind.
00:54:57.679 --> 00:55:03.679
One day I'm feeling abandoned, another day I'm feeling betrayed, a third day, I'm feeling somebody's trying to control me.
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:04.480
They better get back.
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:08.800
You know, you're you're just the core wound caused you to have all these stressful thoughts and emotions.
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:17.599
And it's actually really hard to function at your potential when you're constantly distracted by all the drama in your mind and all the thoughts.
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:23.119
And then, and then because you're having all these stressful thoughts, you cope in unhealthy ways, and then you feel guilty about the way that you coped.
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:39.280
You're like, oh, why did I just binge watch television when I should have been working on something or, you know, and and so by changing the core wounds first as such a relevant part of uh that first pillar of how we heal our attachment style, it takes 21 days to go through that process, two to five minutes a day.
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:46.159
Like the first thing I noticed when working on that pillar is oh my goodness, I had space in my mind back.
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:48.239
Like my mind became more still.
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:51.280
I wasn't jumping to all these conclusions all the time.
00:55:51.440 --> 00:56:01.280
And I actually had room in my life to like focus on my dreams and my goals and be more present and not feeling so like everything was so personal.
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:03.119
I used to take everything so personally.
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:06.960
And then it's like, wow, like I could just see people's actions as their actions.
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:09.519
And it's very freeing to not take things so personally.
00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:11.360
So, you know, that was massive.
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:13.599
It allowed me to be in my first relationship.
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:19.599
You know, I started this work about 15 years ago, did it for a couple of years before I met my husband, um, almost 12 years ago now.
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:24.719
And and um I I had never like known a healthy relationship before that.
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:34.960
And so when you're not triggered by all these core wounds all the time, you can like be there and be present and you can communicate through things and solve problems without jumping to all these conclusions.
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.360
And it just feels a lot easier.
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:38.559
Life feels easier.
00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:41.519
It goes with you into all sorts of avenues of life.
00:56:41.679 --> 00:56:53.920
And um, again, you really have the potential to connect in a totally different way than you thought, um, in a way that's more fulfilling over time instead of being through the all of the ups and downs of what it means to be insecurely attached.
00:56:54.239 --> 00:57:01.039
Yeah, and then I'll share, you know, for me, like there's something I wrote about a few weeks ago, this idea of like the unreliable narrator.
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:03.679
And, you know, we have that narrator in our minds.
00:57:03.840 --> 00:57:12.400
They're just constantly like giving us the play-by-play of what's going on, not only in our minds, but like like it's like this is what Thais is thinking right now.
00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:14.639
Um, she's so bored with this interview, whatever.
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:21.119
Like, it's just it's just like this, like, really a lot of times it's like negative stories if you haven't done the work.
00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:26.800
And not only that, but then your narrator is putting you at the center of other people's stories too.
00:57:27.039 --> 00:57:41.679
So it's like not it's not that they were having a bad day and they don't want to talk, it's you know, they don't like you, or it's not that um, you know, the boss got tied up with a bunch of emails, it's that you're you know one of the worst employees in the company.
00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:56.000
Um, and so I I think like for me, once I started putting in the work, not only through you know the stuff I was reading um from your book, Learning Love, but also through counseling, um, yeah, that it's just a peace of mind.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:00.480
Like it is what it is, like it's not something that it bothers me anymore.
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:16.079
And it gives, you know, my my wife and I, Amanda and I, like a lot more space to have like really important conversations about how we're feeling, you know, and and even to catch the narrator before the story gets out of hand, um, which is something I couldn't do before.
00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:35.599
But again, going back to this idea of emotional literacy, like we're we're taught literacy, but we're not really taught emotional literacy, and that's the one thing that affects us in all aspects um of our life, and so yeah, like the secure attachment style actually feels pretty good right now.
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:39.280
It sure makes life so much easier, too.
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:40.559
Like, so much easier.
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:48.079
And I love that you said that because I I really agree, like that busyness of your mind calms way down, and it's really useful.
00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:53.199
You know, there's a lot of like metacognitive tools where we can catch our stories and catch our thoughts, and that's beautiful.
00:58:53.360 --> 00:59:02.559
But when we really do that core wound reprogramming, it's like you pluck the weed out at the root, and it just allows you to move through things in such a faster way and not have to jump to those conclusions and then work through them.
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:06.159
It's like, oh, you just stop drawing those same painful conclusions as much.
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.360
And and um, yeah, so really, really beautiful share.
00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:18.320
And there's other pillars like, you know, we talk about learning to set healthier boundaries in real time and you know, the actual tools for communication, and that goes a really long way.
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:21.920
Um, and regulating your nervous system a little bit more too.
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:25.679
But, you know, our nervous system gets dysregulated from the core wounds to begin with.
00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:27.840
So, so you sort of get the one-two punch there.
00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:31.360
But yeah, as you move through those pillars, life starts to open up.
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:36.719
And and, you know, a lot of people, I you know, relationships have six stages.
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:41.840
So we have like our dating, honeymoon, power struggle, stability, commitment, and bliss stages.
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:52.000
And I've seen so many people who are insecurely attached, their entire relationship life cycle lives in like dating, honeymoon, power struggle, breakup, dating, honeymoon, power struggle, breakup.
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:57.360
And because most people break up in the power struggle stage, or they just stay continuously in the power struggle stage.
00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:10.000
And when you become securely attached, what's really unique too that happens is that that life cycle of a relationship grows so much that like your dating honeymoon power struggle was just the very beginning of the relationship.
01:00:10.239 --> 01:00:13.679
And then you get all the way to the bliss stage, which is like you feel so much more fulfilled.
01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:17.280
It's like the honeymoon stage, but you actually know somebody way more deeply.
01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:19.519
You know their fears, you know how to support them in that.
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:21.760
They know yours, they know how to support you.
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:31.360
And there's just such a deeper level of intimacy and closeness that's available because you did that work together that's that makes a relationship so much more fulfilling.
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:38.800
And I remember for me, when I was insecurely attached, I used to think like, oh, as soon as like you're out of the honeymoon stage, it's just disaster.
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:41.360
You just fight, and then you're not even infatuated anymore.
01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:44.480
And what happens and everything must get boring or terrible.
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:50.320
And then actually doing the work and building so much more closeness in the power struggle stage.
01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:57.760
Um, and then coming through to the other side of that, being like, wow, that was just this little tiny snapshot of a relationship.
01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:00.559
And a relationship is so much bigger and so much deeper than that.
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:08.320
And um, you you gain a lot more fulfillment beyond just infatuation-based love that you see in those early stages.
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:17.360
Well, if if folks are interested in learning more about your work, again, highly recommend um the book, Learning Love.
01:01:17.519 --> 01:01:18.880
Like that was so helpful.
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:20.480
Thank you so much for that.
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:24.000
But but what else do you offer um through your website?
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:28.159
Yeah, so I offer 90-day programs basically to go through and become securely attached.
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:30.880
So people can go on, it's personaldevelopmentschool.com.
01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:32.719
They can take an attachment style assessment.
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:37.119
It tells them their like blueprint of all these their core wounds, their needs, et cetera.
01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:47.039
Um, and then we put people into a 90-day program to help them rewire their core wounds, learn their needs, regulate their nervous system, and then learn boundaries and communication so that they can really heal.
01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:52.320
And um, we do it all at the subconscious level of mind because that's where the real transformation takes shape.
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:54.639
Oh, well, this was this was great, Thais.
01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:55.280
Thank you so much.
01:01:55.360 --> 01:02:02.159
And it's funny too, like just the timing of it all, because I like we both read your book a couple months ago.
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:09.280
And, you know, as I was like planning out additional interviews, I happened to see your name um on this list.
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:10.400
And I was like, yes.
01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:15.360
Like I said, and I think even I think Amanda was even like, you should really talk to her.
01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:17.920
I was like, Yeah, I just don't know if I'll be able to get her on the show.
01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:21.039
And so thank you so much for for making time today.
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:22.800
Thank you so much for having me.
01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:24.159
And I really, really enjoy this.
01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:26.000
You're honestly so good at your job.
01:02:26.079 --> 01:02:27.920
Like this, you did a really great job of interviewing.
01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:32.480
I go on a lot of podcasts, and like you were so prepared and you got it, and you have so much knowledge as well.
01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:34.239
So it always makes the episode a lot more fun.
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:34.960
So thank you.
01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:37.760
It helps when you do this work out of desperation.
01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:41.039
Uh, like, you know, when I meant like reading your book and everything.
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:43.599
So, like, I'm very familiar with uh with your work.
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:46.480
But again, Thais, thank you so much for your time today.
01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:48.559
And uh yeah, best of luck to you.
01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:57.440
And if if you're listening to the show, I really encourage you again to pick up the book and check out uh the personal development school and all the things that she has to offer.
01:02:57.599 --> 01:02:58.800
Well, thank you so much.
01:02:59.199 --> 01:03:00.320
Thank you so much, Joe.
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:01.920
It was so fun to chat.
01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:07.519
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01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:12.159
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01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:23.519
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01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:29.519
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01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:38.079
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01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:56.079
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01:03:56.239 --> 01:04:00.239
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01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:08.559
So please join us next week for another episode of From the Green Notebook, where we're gonna help you lead with the best version of yourself.
01:04:08.960 --> 01:04:10.800
I'm gonna from the mind.