Hello, and welcome to From Separation to Settlement with Jeffrey Hale, a podcast about navigating the legal and emotional journey through family law. Jeffrey Hale is a litigation partner at Kroner Hale law firm who has dedicated his career to guiding families through divorce, custody, and other complex legal challenges with compassion and clear, honest advice. I'm Kevin Rosenquist. And, of course, as always, I am joined by Jeffrey Halw. Jeffrey, good to see you.
Good to see you again, Kevin. Glad to be back. So we're gonna talk about, you know, child support in Ohio, what parents need to know. So can you just start off by saying how child support is typically calculated specifically, obviously, in Ohio? Yeah.
So child support is actually one of the easier, I would say, avenues of support to calculate just because Ohio has a formula. So they they've already made a formula that determines what it's gonna cost to raise one child up to, you know, eight children, and that's that's just a formula. So all you're doing is putting in the income of the parties, any health care expenses, any anything that would be added in, child care, day care expenses, something along those lines, then it just spits out a number. Did you say eight up to eight who's having that many children, Jeffrey? That's crazy talk.
I mean, I I think I think it calculates out up to eight. Up to eight? Okay. So it's just it's a it's just the formula that they've they've got. So, you know, you just put in the number of children, you put in the incomes, put in the childcare expenses or health care expenses, and it basically, it would generate a number for you.
What what all, you know, what income is included? Is it just employment income? What what all is included in that? No. For child support, and that's the I think that's what surprises a lot of people because child support does not I I would say it doesn't allow you to have the same deduction as maybe the IRS will.
So in a child support calculation, all gross income is included. That means income of any sort of any kind can be factored into that that final income number. You mean even, like, gains in the stock market, anything like that? Absolutely. I mean, if if you're retired and, you know, you're drawing a a pension, if you are drawing from a four zero one k Well all of this is factored in when it comes to gross income and consideration for, what what you may be paying a child support.
Is is it possible for two parents to agree on a different number than the court recommends? Yeah. A lot of times you'll have that. If you'll get parents that will agree on a different number, that's that's one of the ways that, you can reach an agreement is to come to a a set number that, you know, one party will decide, this is what I think I need. The other party will say, okay.
I can agree to that number. Because a lot of times, when you get these agreements, the number of child support turns out can sometimes be quite a bit higher than what, you know, someone's able to agree to. So you can reach agreements that way to kinda control that number on child support. The other the other side of that is child support. You can have deviations upward or deviations downward on that final number depending on a lot of circumstances, but one of them being the amount of time that you spend with the children.
Do you have do you have equal parenting time? Because then that's gonna play in to what that final number may be from a court, because understanding that child support is meant to be for the children. It's meant to help support the children in that other party's home when they have the children. So if you have an equal parenting time situation, then you're gonna run into a chance to deviate that number downward of what you're actually paying because you're absorbing more of the cost. You're absorbing more of the financial responsibilities of the children because you have them more than what a standard order allows.
Okay. That makes sense. So while the the while there's this fairly simple calculation or a mathematical calculation, there are definitely other factors involved as well like parenting time. Absolutely. Yes.
Are there other factors that the court considers? I mean, just other than I mean, the the time that you have with the children is a major factor. And then they'll they'll factor in health care expenses, childcare expenses. Because one of the things that I think people don't realize initially coming into it is everybody wants the, you know, they want the best childcare. They want the the top of the line preschool for their child.
Well, I mean, number one, that's expensive. And number two, when that gets factored in, it's not just it's not just an equal split automatically. So child support will put the incomes together and then they break it out in a percentage. So they they add your income together, and then they, generate a percentage of what one party earns versus what the other party earns. And then that's how everything's broken down.
So that, let's say, that, you know, $20,000 daycare bill, it won't be a $50.50 split if the incomes aren't equal. So that that could be one party paying 70% of that versus the, you know, the other party paying 30% of it. So people need to realize that it's not just gonna be an equal you can agree to an equal division, but if the if you just run the worksheet, it's gonna break down along income lines. Okay. It gets that it gets that specific.
It gets that granular with it. Yes. Okay. Man, I I gotta I gotta think that, you know, obviously, there's a lot of a lot of divorces aren't exactly, smooth or pleasant, between the parties. Is are there a lot of arguments that this that come from this as far as what the court thinks someone can afford versus what someone thinks they can afford?
Yeah. I all the time. So, I mean, there's because the formula is it it's just a computer. It's spitting out a number. And the problem with child support in some of these instances is that it doesn't take into account the person's living situation.
So someone may make x amount of dollars, but that doesn't take it doesn't take into account that they were forced to move out quickly, so their rent is higher. Or they weren't able to find a, you know, a good home, so they had to take a a mortgage rate that wasn't ideal. So now their their house payment is much higher. It doesn't account for that because it's it's just attributed that everyone's gonna pay rent. Everyone's gonna have a housing cost.
Mhmm. So they don't attribute they don't attribute each individual's housing cost in that worksheet. So Yeah. That number comes out much higher than anticipated or and then you gotta add in your mortgage. Now you're looking at people who honestly cannot they they work to pay support, and they can't make other living expenses.
Yeah. Does it take debt into consideration, whether it's credit card debt or any other, you know, medical debt or anything like that? Not typically. That I mean, that's considered that's considered a a self created problem. So when you when you have a lot of credit card debt, then, you know, you've created that.
You have you know, for whatever reason, you've been living outside of your means. So for child support, it doesn't it doesn't take that into consideration because the children still need support. So they they they're still gonna have needs that need to be covered. So they those fall outside of their consideration. Are there any other expenses or debts that the court will take into consideration?
I mean, you can always you can always file. You can you can always object to a child support worksheet and have a hearing in front of, a magistrate or a judge. So you can present you can present any evidence you want. You can present that you just you know, the debts you've absorbed from the divorce, the debts you've now taken on. If you've been have to if you have had to leave the home, you can present that evidence, but there's no guarantee that a court is gonna is gonna consider that because the worksheet is presumed to be correct.
Mhmm. So when you go in, you're asking for a deviation upward or downward. Now I'm not and then that's where it comes in is if you have equal paradigm, then you can start trying to deviate that downward. But, you know, on on the flip side of that, you're gonna you're gonna run into the problem is you will have some parents who don't utilize the time they've been given or don't even utilize standard time, which is basically considered ninety overnights a year. And you will have a party come in and ask for an upward deviation to increase their support because they're absorbing more of that expense when this other party is not taking their children.
Yeah. Are there you know, you hope that everybody cares about their children and wants to give, you know, support. Maybe there's different feelings about spousal support if there's some animosity, of course. But do you find that some people will attempt to underreport their income? All the time.
Really? No. We've we get requests to underreport income, and we have had many cases where we get, there are certain things that come out in a divorce referred to as mandatory disclosures. These are things you have to turn over. Income, pay stubs, tax returns, bank statements.
These are all things that the court immediately wants you to exchange. So these things come out and there are many times that you will find underreporting and especially when you get into you start getting into the neighborhood of self employed individuals. Then it becomes very hard to track down and lock in what their actual income is because they they'll have a bunch of write offs, so their taxes are not always reflective of what their gross income actually should be. Yeah. Yeah.
I could definitely see that see that happening. Is there once once it's set, you know, once the the the the amount is set, whether it's agreed upon or the courts courts, you know, give that number out, can it be changed down the road as life changes, as life events happen, whether it's, you know, someone having more kids within another marriage or losing a job or what have you? So the the support order is never static. I mean, it's any typically, anything involving children is never a a rock solid, this is finished forever situation. The court maintains jurisdiction over the children until they turn 18 and graduate from high school.
So that includes any support orders and life changes typically about every I think it's typically every three years. Child support, you can ask child support to do a review. They'll reach out. Everyone needs to turn in their income, which, you know, everyone's honest about their income, so that's always a a good number. But, typically, though, everyone will turn in their income, and they'll do a three year review.
Child support may change. It may stay the same, but that's that's an administrative process. So if an individual doesn't like that, they can object to that finding and it'll go before a judge. But short of the three year mark, if you have a what they refer to as a substantial change in your income, then whether, you know, your income drops or the the x's income increases, then you can go in and ask the courts to take a take a look at the child support again. And, basically, that trigger number is usually about 10 to 15% change.
Okay. And how how much you know, does the person receiving the child support have to report what they're spending it on, or is it just, you know, they get the money and we hope they're spending it wisely? So a a lot of people come in and ask that. They well, they'll they'll complain because they don't know what the money is being spent on, or they don't see, you know, they don't see it going directly to the children. But the issue with child support is it's exactly that.
It's presumed that that money is going to help support the children in whatever way in whatever way that parent feels is appropriate. So there there's no reporting. There's no recording of what that money is being spent on. The court has decided that this is the amount of money that it there should be going into this household where the children are spending most of their time, and so that that's it. Once all they care about is that that money goes from you to that household, how it comes out of that household, how it's spent is not, gonna be tracked by the court.
If the the paying parent is is not feeling good about where the money is going, like, they're not seeing enough, I don't know, extracurriculars or schooling, whatever that might be, do they have any sort of recourse to say, hey. We need to look at this because I don't think this money is going to the kids? I mean, that's that's kind of a big question mark. That's you know, everyone hates when attorneys say have they'll ask a question and the attorney's answers. Well, maybe.
Interesting. I don't mean it's it it just it really depends because you have to look at well, number one, do you have enough to even get back into court and trigger it? Mhmm. And number two, without being able to get back in court to trigger that jurisdiction, then they're the individual you're looking to investigate is not gonna turn over their bank records because there's no court pending. There's no jurisdiction.
There's no subpoena to send. So unless they're just wholeheartedly being open and honest about it and they say, look. Here's my bank records. Here's what I'm doing. There's really no way to see it until you have a reason to get back into court.
So if they just suspect it, that's not a reason. That's not gonna trigger an attorney to file a motion and put put their name on the line to say, okay. We think there's some mishandling of funds, and now we wanna go dig. Basically, they would just look at it. That would be a fishing expedition.
Mhmm. Yeah. So okay. What what happens if someone doesn't pay or stops paying? What are the what's the the legal ramifications of that?
Not contempt. That's that's always that's always your legal ramification when you are ignoring a court order. So once child support's ordered, even if it's ordered administratively, it ultimately will either if you object and the court sets it, that's the court order. If you don't object, then the administrative order is then adopted by the court to become a court order. So anytime you ignore a court's order, your your, avenue of relief is gonna be a contempt action.
Okay. So we we would file a motion a motion for contempt, letting the court know, you know, this this individual is not following the order you issued, and we'd ask that you and and it's referred to as a show cause hearing, show cause why they shouldn't be found in contempt. If you're the paying parent and you're really struggling and you you just can't make, you you're making the payments, but but it's it's hurting you pretty badly. Are are there ways that you can, I don't know, file a a grievance or file a, some sort of a a a corpus you know, a corp document that says, hey? This is really, really hard on me.
Can we look at this? Yeah. You can you can always file a motion to modify and ask the court to look into it. But once again, that's gonna come back to what what has been the changes since the last order. So Mhmm.
If your income has dropped, then that can be considered. If, if the other individual's income has gone up to cover that percentage, then that can be considered. Or, you know, if if you have if you had a medical issue and you took you had to take on a lot of medical debt and now or if you had a child that had a lot of medical debt, now you're paying that and trying to pay this child support. Those things can be considered. Mhmm.
It's not always gonna be a guarantee, but you you have an avenue to go back to the court and ask them to and ask them to, reconsider or to modify the the pen or the last order on child support. If if somebody you know, if if the the the parent who who has the kids, the majority of the time has way, way, way more money than the other parent. Are there situations where there's no child support paid because the income is so different, or is there always something? No. There are situations where no income is paid.
First situation, most common one is when you have parents with somewhat similar incomes and you have an equal parenting time, then a lot of times there there will not be an exchange of child support. Okay. You're each you're each just agreeing to be responsible for the cost of the children when you have them. If you have if you have an individual that well, I think your example was that the parent that has the children the most also has the much higher income, then the courts can take that into consideration. And, you know, they the court can always decide that it's not in the best interest of the children to have that exchange of child support because basically what you would be doing is parent one who has the higher income, they don't really need that money to help support the kids.
Right. And if parent two has a much lower income, then when the kids are with parent two, that's that's just more money drained out of that home, making it even harder to provide for them even when parents who has the children. So the court can step in and make a decision that it's not in the best interest to have that child support exchange. That makes sense. Yeah.
Alright. Well, that's it for, for today. Thanks for listening to From Separation to Settlement. If you have questions about child support or family law in Ohio, please visit kroehnerlaw.com to schedule a consultation with Jeff. And, of course, don't forget to subscribe to our channel.
Leave us a review. We very much appreciate it. Jeff, always appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you, Kevin.
Always enjoyable.
Good to see you again, Kevin. Glad to be back. So we're gonna talk about, you know, child support in Ohio, what parents need to know. So can you just start off by saying how child support is typically calculated specifically, obviously, in Ohio? Yeah.
So child support is actually one of the easier, I would say, avenues of support to calculate just because Ohio has a formula. So they they've already made a formula that determines what it's gonna cost to raise one child up to, you know, eight children, and that's that's just a formula. So all you're doing is putting in the income of the parties, any health care expenses, any anything that would be added in, child care, day care expenses, something along those lines, then it just spits out a number. Did you say eight up to eight who's having that many children, Jeffrey? That's crazy talk.
I mean, I I think I think it calculates out up to eight. Up to eight? Okay. So it's just it's a it's just the formula that they've they've got. So, you know, you just put in the number of children, you put in the incomes, put in the childcare expenses or health care expenses, and it basically, it would generate a number for you.
What what all, you know, what income is included? Is it just employment income? What what all is included in that? No. For child support, and that's the I think that's what surprises a lot of people because child support does not I I would say it doesn't allow you to have the same deduction as maybe the IRS will.
So in a child support calculation, all gross income is included. That means income of any sort of any kind can be factored into that that final income number. You mean even, like, gains in the stock market, anything like that? Absolutely. I mean, if if you're retired and, you know, you're drawing a a pension, if you are drawing from a four zero one k Well all of this is factored in when it comes to gross income and consideration for, what what you may be paying a child support.
Is is it possible for two parents to agree on a different number than the court recommends? Yeah. A lot of times you'll have that. If you'll get parents that will agree on a different number, that's that's one of the ways that, you can reach an agreement is to come to a a set number that, you know, one party will decide, this is what I think I need. The other party will say, okay.
I can agree to that number. Because a lot of times, when you get these agreements, the number of child support turns out can sometimes be quite a bit higher than what, you know, someone's able to agree to. So you can reach agreements that way to kinda control that number on child support. The other the other side of that is child support. You can have deviations upward or deviations downward on that final number depending on a lot of circumstances, but one of them being the amount of time that you spend with the children.
Do you have do you have equal parenting time? Because then that's gonna play in to what that final number may be from a court, because understanding that child support is meant to be for the children. It's meant to help support the children in that other party's home when they have the children. So if you have an equal parenting time situation, then you're gonna run into a chance to deviate that number downward of what you're actually paying because you're absorbing more of the cost. You're absorbing more of the financial responsibilities of the children because you have them more than what a standard order allows.
Okay. That makes sense. So while the the while there's this fairly simple calculation or a mathematical calculation, there are definitely other factors involved as well like parenting time. Absolutely. Yes.
Are there other factors that the court considers? I mean, just other than I mean, the the time that you have with the children is a major factor. And then they'll they'll factor in health care expenses, childcare expenses. Because one of the things that I think people don't realize initially coming into it is everybody wants the, you know, they want the best childcare. They want the the top of the line preschool for their child.
Well, I mean, number one, that's expensive. And number two, when that gets factored in, it's not just it's not just an equal split automatically. So child support will put the incomes together and then they break it out in a percentage. So they they add your income together, and then they, generate a percentage of what one party earns versus what the other party earns. And then that's how everything's broken down.
So that, let's say, that, you know, $20,000 daycare bill, it won't be a $50.50 split if the incomes aren't equal. So that that could be one party paying 70% of that versus the, you know, the other party paying 30% of it. So people need to realize that it's not just gonna be an equal you can agree to an equal division, but if the if you just run the worksheet, it's gonna break down along income lines. Okay. It gets that it gets that specific.
It gets that granular with it. Yes. Okay. Man, I I gotta I gotta think that, you know, obviously, there's a lot of a lot of divorces aren't exactly, smooth or pleasant, between the parties. Is are there a lot of arguments that this that come from this as far as what the court thinks someone can afford versus what someone thinks they can afford?
Yeah. I all the time. So, I mean, there's because the formula is it it's just a computer. It's spitting out a number. And the problem with child support in some of these instances is that it doesn't take into account the person's living situation.
So someone may make x amount of dollars, but that doesn't take it doesn't take into account that they were forced to move out quickly, so their rent is higher. Or they weren't able to find a, you know, a good home, so they had to take a a mortgage rate that wasn't ideal. So now their their house payment is much higher. It doesn't account for that because it's it's just attributed that everyone's gonna pay rent. Everyone's gonna have a housing cost.
Mhmm. So they don't attribute they don't attribute each individual's housing cost in that worksheet. So Yeah. That number comes out much higher than anticipated or and then you gotta add in your mortgage. Now you're looking at people who honestly cannot they they work to pay support, and they can't make other living expenses.
Yeah. Does it take debt into consideration, whether it's credit card debt or any other, you know, medical debt or anything like that? Not typically. That I mean, that's considered that's considered a a self created problem. So when you when you have a lot of credit card debt, then, you know, you've created that.
You have you know, for whatever reason, you've been living outside of your means. So for child support, it doesn't it doesn't take that into consideration because the children still need support. So they they they're still gonna have needs that need to be covered. So they those fall outside of their consideration. Are there any other expenses or debts that the court will take into consideration?
I mean, you can always you can always file. You can you can always object to a child support worksheet and have a hearing in front of, a magistrate or a judge. So you can present you can present any evidence you want. You can present that you just you know, the debts you've absorbed from the divorce, the debts you've now taken on. If you've been have to if you have had to leave the home, you can present that evidence, but there's no guarantee that a court is gonna is gonna consider that because the worksheet is presumed to be correct.
Mhmm. So when you go in, you're asking for a deviation upward or downward. Now I'm not and then that's where it comes in is if you have equal paradigm, then you can start trying to deviate that downward. But, you know, on on the flip side of that, you're gonna you're gonna run into the problem is you will have some parents who don't utilize the time they've been given or don't even utilize standard time, which is basically considered ninety overnights a year. And you will have a party come in and ask for an upward deviation to increase their support because they're absorbing more of that expense when this other party is not taking their children.
Yeah. Are there you know, you hope that everybody cares about their children and wants to give, you know, support. Maybe there's different feelings about spousal support if there's some animosity, of course. But do you find that some people will attempt to underreport their income? All the time.
Really? No. We've we get requests to underreport income, and we have had many cases where we get, there are certain things that come out in a divorce referred to as mandatory disclosures. These are things you have to turn over. Income, pay stubs, tax returns, bank statements.
These are all things that the court immediately wants you to exchange. So these things come out and there are many times that you will find underreporting and especially when you get into you start getting into the neighborhood of self employed individuals. Then it becomes very hard to track down and lock in what their actual income is because they they'll have a bunch of write offs, so their taxes are not always reflective of what their gross income actually should be. Yeah. Yeah.
I could definitely see that see that happening. Is there once once it's set, you know, once the the the the amount is set, whether it's agreed upon or the courts courts, you know, give that number out, can it be changed down the road as life changes, as life events happen, whether it's, you know, someone having more kids within another marriage or losing a job or what have you? So the the support order is never static. I mean, it's any typically, anything involving children is never a a rock solid, this is finished forever situation. The court maintains jurisdiction over the children until they turn 18 and graduate from high school.
So that includes any support orders and life changes typically about every I think it's typically every three years. Child support, you can ask child support to do a review. They'll reach out. Everyone needs to turn in their income, which, you know, everyone's honest about their income, so that's always a a good number. But, typically, though, everyone will turn in their income, and they'll do a three year review.
Child support may change. It may stay the same, but that's that's an administrative process. So if an individual doesn't like that, they can object to that finding and it'll go before a judge. But short of the three year mark, if you have a what they refer to as a substantial change in your income, then whether, you know, your income drops or the the x's income increases, then you can go in and ask the courts to take a take a look at the child support again. And, basically, that trigger number is usually about 10 to 15% change.
Okay. And how how much you know, does the person receiving the child support have to report what they're spending it on, or is it just, you know, they get the money and we hope they're spending it wisely? So a a lot of people come in and ask that. They well, they'll they'll complain because they don't know what the money is being spent on, or they don't see, you know, they don't see it going directly to the children. But the issue with child support is it's exactly that.
It's presumed that that money is going to help support the children in whatever way in whatever way that parent feels is appropriate. So there there's no reporting. There's no recording of what that money is being spent on. The court has decided that this is the amount of money that it there should be going into this household where the children are spending most of their time, and so that that's it. Once all they care about is that that money goes from you to that household, how it comes out of that household, how it's spent is not, gonna be tracked by the court.
If the the paying parent is is not feeling good about where the money is going, like, they're not seeing enough, I don't know, extracurriculars or schooling, whatever that might be, do they have any sort of recourse to say, hey. We need to look at this because I don't think this money is going to the kids? I mean, that's that's kind of a big question mark. That's you know, everyone hates when attorneys say have they'll ask a question and the attorney's answers. Well, maybe.
Interesting. I don't mean it's it it just it really depends because you have to look at well, number one, do you have enough to even get back into court and trigger it? Mhmm. And number two, without being able to get back in court to trigger that jurisdiction, then they're the individual you're looking to investigate is not gonna turn over their bank records because there's no court pending. There's no jurisdiction.
There's no subpoena to send. So unless they're just wholeheartedly being open and honest about it and they say, look. Here's my bank records. Here's what I'm doing. There's really no way to see it until you have a reason to get back into court.
So if they just suspect it, that's not a reason. That's not gonna trigger an attorney to file a motion and put put their name on the line to say, okay. We think there's some mishandling of funds, and now we wanna go dig. Basically, they would just look at it. That would be a fishing expedition.
Mhmm. Yeah. So okay. What what happens if someone doesn't pay or stops paying? What are the what's the the legal ramifications of that?
Not contempt. That's that's always that's always your legal ramification when you are ignoring a court order. So once child support's ordered, even if it's ordered administratively, it ultimately will either if you object and the court sets it, that's the court order. If you don't object, then the administrative order is then adopted by the court to become a court order. So anytime you ignore a court's order, your your, avenue of relief is gonna be a contempt action.
Okay. So we we would file a motion a motion for contempt, letting the court know, you know, this this individual is not following the order you issued, and we'd ask that you and and it's referred to as a show cause hearing, show cause why they shouldn't be found in contempt. If you're the paying parent and you're really struggling and you you just can't make, you you're making the payments, but but it's it's hurting you pretty badly. Are are there ways that you can, I don't know, file a a grievance or file a, some sort of a a a corpus you know, a corp document that says, hey? This is really, really hard on me.
Can we look at this? Yeah. You can you can always file a motion to modify and ask the court to look into it. But once again, that's gonna come back to what what has been the changes since the last order. So Mhmm.
If your income has dropped, then that can be considered. If, if the other individual's income has gone up to cover that percentage, then that can be considered. Or, you know, if if you have if you had a medical issue and you took you had to take on a lot of medical debt and now or if you had a child that had a lot of medical debt, now you're paying that and trying to pay this child support. Those things can be considered. Mhmm.
It's not always gonna be a guarantee, but you you have an avenue to go back to the court and ask them to and ask them to, reconsider or to modify the the pen or the last order on child support. If if somebody you know, if if the the the parent who who has the kids, the majority of the time has way, way, way more money than the other parent. Are there situations where there's no child support paid because the income is so different, or is there always something? No. There are situations where no income is paid.
First situation, most common one is when you have parents with somewhat similar incomes and you have an equal parenting time, then a lot of times there there will not be an exchange of child support. Okay. You're each you're each just agreeing to be responsible for the cost of the children when you have them. If you have if you have an individual that well, I think your example was that the parent that has the children the most also has the much higher income, then the courts can take that into consideration. And, you know, they the court can always decide that it's not in the best interest of the children to have that exchange of child support because basically what you would be doing is parent one who has the higher income, they don't really need that money to help support the kids.
Right. And if parent two has a much lower income, then when the kids are with parent two, that's that's just more money drained out of that home, making it even harder to provide for them even when parents who has the children. So the court can step in and make a decision that it's not in the best interest to have that child support exchange. That makes sense. Yeah.
Alright. Well, that's it for, for today. Thanks for listening to From Separation to Settlement. If you have questions about child support or family law in Ohio, please visit kroehnerlaw.com to schedule a consultation with Jeff. And, of course, don't forget to subscribe to our channel.
Leave us a review. We very much appreciate it. Jeff, always appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you, Kevin.
Always enjoyable.
