Thomas Heaton

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There are no rules, and it's a bit of a cliche to say there's no rules, but there really are no rules.
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You need to disregard rules of thirds and golden ratios and all that sort of stuff.
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It's quite simple.
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It has to feel right, and it has to be well balanced.
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And that's about it.
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This photography podcast is brought to you by Frames, quarterly printed photography magazine.
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Here is your today's host, W.
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Scott Olson, with another fascinating conversation.
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Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to another podcast from Frames Magazine.
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My name is Scott Olson, and today, folks, today I gotta tell you, I am guilty of one of the seven deadly sins, the one called envy.
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We are talking to someone whose life I absolutely envy.
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I want to be this person.
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I want to have the days that this person has, travel where he goes, and have the opportunities to look at the world of the camera that as the receiver, as the audience of his work, I find frankly just deeply inspiring.
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We're talking, in other words, with Thomas Heaton, one of the best known landscape photographers on the planet and a tremendously popular, influential, and important YouTube host.
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I mean, this guy has got 72 million views of his YouTube videos.
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There's 617 videos to date, 588,000 subscribers, and this is his 11th year as a YouTube host.
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But all of that success comes from a real solid talent in landscape photography.
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It comes from the ability to tell a story, not only in terms of the videos, but in terms of the still image.
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And as somebody who does a little bit of landscape photography myself, I look at this work and like I said, I am filled with admiration and envy.
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Tom, welcome to the podcast today.
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How are you doing?
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Well, I am I am so much better after that introduction.
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Thank you very much.
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No, I had no idea how many views I've had or how many subscribers I have.
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So it's nice for somebody to reel off all of my statistics and give my ego a nice massage.
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So thank you.
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Well, I mean, I looked on your website and then I looked on on the YouTube thing.
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Um, and your website needs a little bit of updating.
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But no, 588,000 subscribers, that is fantastic.
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That means right there you're doing something right.
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So let let's let's get into this.
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I mean, landscape photography, you know, no matter who you are as a photographer, we've all taken pictures of a pretty scene.
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And the difference between the snapshot that's incidental, and the mindful, the considerate, the well-composed, the the technically sophisticated image, that's a bit of a journey to travel.
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So let's start with the origin story a little bit.
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You say on your website, you know, it was 16, you're in college, you photography came into your life.
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But, you know, when you were 16, it could have been a drumstick, it could have been a soccer ball, it could have been a spreadsheet.
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I mean, all sorts of things could have come into your life uh at that time.
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Were you already, you know, in engaged with the image, you know, moving or still?
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Did you grow up with cameras?
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How did you get to be that kid at 16 who looked at a camera and said, yes, this is me?
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Well, it's interesting that you said it.
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You said it could have been a drumstick, it could have been football, it could have been a spreadsheet.
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No, it couldn't.
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No way.
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Uh I am tone deaf, have no rhythm, tried drumming, couldn't do it.
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I spreadsheets, yeah, it'd speak to my accountant.
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I am just useless with numbers.
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I was terrible at school.
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Um, I have no academia qualities whatsoever.
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The one thing, the one thing I wanted to do more than ever, more than anything, was to be creative.
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I wanted to draw, I wanted to paint.
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Obviously, I couldn't draw and I couldn't paint.
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So imagine my frustration growing up thinking, what am I gonna do with my life?
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And then at 16, I discovered a thing called media production, which is like, oh, you know, that's making videos and taking photographs.
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And then I discovered the stills camera, a dark room, film, and yeah, that was it.
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It was it was just like a revelation, and that changed my life without a shadow of a doubt.
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When you were 16, this would have been because I mean you just turned 40.
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We're gonna talk about that in a little bit.
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I don't remind you.
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Uh but but when you were 16, what MTV was just coming on?
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It was really popular, or was it?
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Oh, come on, that wasn't that long ago.
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MTV was popular in the 80s, man.
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No, I don't know.
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What was Kerrang?
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I would say probably uh Kerrang was probably you know reaching its uh peak.
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Okay.
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Uh yeah, peak popularity.
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Um so yeah, 16, so it would have been the year 2000, 2001.
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Digital was not far away, but it wasn't quite there yet.
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It wasn't attainable for people like me.
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So yeah, it was uh it would tell you all, it was a good time.
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And growing up in the 90s and the early noughties, that yeah.
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And the only time I could imagine that would have been better would have been the 60s or the 80s.
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But yeah, well, well, as somebody who was born in the 50s, I can tell you the 60s were a hell of a time to grow enough to grow up.
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You're absolutely right.
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Um, so okay, media productions.
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That's that's a video production deal.
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Yeah, well, media productions, the it was the entire sort of swathed, you know, it was videos, it was editing, it was photography, it was music, which I was obviously terrible at.
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Uh so it was a whole range of things, radio production.
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It was a taster, you know, dip your toes in everything to do with media, which to me was a dream because I was 16 and didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.
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I thought, well, I can't do A levels, which is the more academic stuff, math, science, English.
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Um, and I didn't want to go and work on a building site.
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So I thought, well, what on earth am I gonna do?
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And my teacher said, Have you considered media?
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And I didn't even know what the term media meant.
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And she went, you know, television.
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I was like, oh, okay, I like television.
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And then that was it, straight into college, and I sort of took to it like a duck to water.
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Yeah, it was fantastic, man.
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I could extract it.
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Do you recall why do you could do do you recall why you took to it so quick?
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Yeah, because I could express all my creativity.
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I was so frustrated that I couldn't draw and I couldn't paint.
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So I felt as if I couldn't create anything.
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I had no, I had no outlet.
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And then all of a sudden I discovered an outlet, which was video, it was editing, and it was photography.
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Okay, and so you get your degree and you become a video technician.
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Correct.
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A video technician, if you want to call me that.
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Yeah.
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Basically, yeah, operating a camera.
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You've been reading my website well.
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Um, yes, operating a camera, video editing, doing live television, broadcasting, that kind of thing.
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Mm-hmm.
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And but why why didn't that was it just the lack of your own authorship there that was the problem?
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What with the with that job, do you mean?
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Yeah, or with with you know, doing video work for others.
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Okay, so where I grew up, there's very few opportunities and even fewer opportunities in the media industry.
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So when somebody offers you a job, you flip and take it.
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So it doesn't matter what it is.
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It just so happened that for me it was a job going out and making videos and editing uh corporate videos for uh a company.
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And they offered me a job, and I was like, yes, please.
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So having a job that was somewhat related to my education, which was media production, I was more than happy to take that job.
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And it was good.
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I did that for a few years, but soon realized that it it wasn't, I wasn't gonna progress any further.
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So I needed to go out there and do something for myself.
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And I guess that's where entrepreneurship came in.
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And nobody, nobody at school taught me about entrepreneurship.
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It's criminal.
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I can't believe that they they essentially drum it into you that you need to go and work for somebody else.
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Not once in my 18 years of education, actually 21 years of education, not once was it ever mentioned that you could start your own business and do your own thing.
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It was it was crazy that that wasn't even a concept.
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Um, yeah, it's criminal.
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It should be in the education system.
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So if I'd have known that, then perhaps I would have done something sooner working for myself.
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Well, now working for somebody else, though, you know, where you're getting a paycheck, you're learning composition, you're learning light, you're you're learning all this stuff without the risk of if I don't get a client tomorrow, I'm not going to pay my rent.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So in in that sense, you are correct.
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But the the difficulty in trying to find a job and the lack of control that you have in getting that job, you know, you could go for 200 interviews and and not get hired.
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I was very lucky because I got in with a friend of a friend and I got some work experience.
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And yeah, I did learn a lot.
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It was fantastic.
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However, as I say, after four years, I realized that I was basically earning minimum wage, barely getting by, working 50 hours a week, probably.
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Um, and just thinking, well, I'm I'm never gonna progress.
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This is my life now, this is it.
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And unless I go out and take a risk and do something by myself.
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And certainly it wasn't too bad back in the sort of early 2000s until 2008 came around when the economy tanked.
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But there's no job security now.
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And I think if you work for yourself, you're far more secure than if you work for somebody else.
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Because you can't fire yourself if you're working for yourself.
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And you can also see the writing on the wall and change direction and adapt.
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Whereas if you work for somebody else, tomorrow they could fire you.
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So yeah, I would I would encourage, I know, you know, anybody I speak to, I would encourage to certainly look into entrepreneurship for yourself.
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You know, that that's a really good point.
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I was thinking, you know, when you're working for yourself, you've always got that fear that nobody's gonna buy your work.
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You know, everybody that opens a restaurant thinks theirs is theirs is gonna be five-star Michelin at the end.
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And if nobody shows up, but you brought in that other element.
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You can read the writing, you can change direction.
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You, you know, you've got your own creative control there.
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Were you doing any still work at the time or was it all video?
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Uh I was doing some stills, but mostly of the still work I was doing was just for myself.
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So it was just a hobby, a passion.
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And snapshots of family, the dog, or was it was the landscape stuff starting to creep in?
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No, this was landscapes.
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Yeah.
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This was going out, this was how I would spend my spare time.
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So I would go out in the evenings and the mornings, uh photographing the coast and the rivers and just yeah, generally indulging in landscape photography.
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Just for your own self, or were you showing this around?
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Oh no, just for myself.
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I want to see some of these pictures.
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I, you know, I keep, you know, in the classical music world, I keep wanting to listen to Opus One from composers.
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You know, what was the first thing that Tchaikovsky did?
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Um, I I would love to see Opus One to 10 from Thomas Heaton, just to see what what the first 10 landscape pictures looked like.
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Yeah, me too.
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I don't know where they are.
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I probably have them on an obscure CD somewhere.
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But we we're talking many, many computers ago.
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So, okay, you go out on your own and you get a gig with Sky Sports, which you say you loved and you hated at the same time.
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Oh, no.
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Did I say I loved and hated?
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I think we need to get rid of the loved.
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I think just hated.
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Well, you said you could you called it a dream job.
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I think on paper it was a dream job.
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It's like, and it wasn't, I wasn't working for Sky Sports, it was just a job, it was freelance.
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So, you know, I would go via an agency and the the video that I was filled, or the live television that I was filming was being broadcast on Sky Sports.
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It does sound cool though, saying, you know, it's good on my CV saying that yes, I work for Sky Sports.
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No, it was hell.
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Like it's not good.
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Like being like I say, remember how I said it was difficult to get a job.
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Well, every man and his dog wants to get a job for Sky Sports.
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So the people at the top can, you know, basically I was incredibly replaceable.
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Everyone's replaceable.
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So it's kind of like get here, do your job, do your thing.
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Uh, no respects, no politeness, just awful.
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High and high pressure as well because it's live TV and you have your uh headset on, so you've got the producers and directors screaming down your ear.
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Just a lot of pressure, but no reward.
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Let's take just a quick break.
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We hope very much that you are enjoying today's episode.
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The very fact that you are listening to this podcast suggests that photography means a lot to you.
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And if that's the case, you might want to have a look at Frames, quarterly printed photography magazine.
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We truly believe that excellent photography belongs on paper.
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Visit readframes.com to find out more about our publication and use the coupon code podcast to receive a recurring 10% discount on your new frames magazine subscription.
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.960
And now, back to today's conversation.
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So we we get to a moment in your career, and and and this is the this is the one that I find really, really fascinating.
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You decide you know you're gonna go in a different direction.
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And it's not so much video anymore.
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You're going to still, you start, you do a little wedding work, you build a studio.
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What was the turning point where where you said, you know, I'm gonna change compass settings?
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Oh, the turning point was probably doing a Sky Sports football job and thinking, I can't do this again.
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So wedding photography was easy.
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You know, if anybody wants to make money from photography, wedding photography is the way to go.
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So you can work in your local region, which means it's a smaller, fewer competitors.
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And if you're you know, if you're a little bit savvy, moxing yourself is fairly straightforward.
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But then doing weddings again, not very enjoyable.
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It's a very lonely job.
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Um, I think I photographed about a hundred weddings in in the years that I was doing that.
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Oh wow.
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So, you know, it was good, it was okay money, it was reliable.
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Um, but again, not not really very enjoyable.
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A lot of again, a lot of high pressure, uh, but it paid the bills, and it was just it's all about like you have to be going in the right direction throughout your life.
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Like so anybody that thinks they're just gonna go straight into a dream job or start a dream business straight away is is fooling themselves.
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You've got to kind of put in the hard work and do the stuff that's not enjoyable because you learn and it also motivates you to move on and do something better and something bigger.
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So that's so from the weddings, again, it was a situation where I just thought I can't do any more weddings, I just don't enjoy this.
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You know, I would have a wedding coming up on the weekend, and I'd start just oh, start dreading the thinking, well, what if my cameras go wrong?
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What if my memory cards fail, which did happen?
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I had to run out and buy a memory card 10 minutes before the wedding started.
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Oh Lord.
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What if I mess up with my diary and miss a wedding?
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I remember I was having a holiday with my wife, it was a weekend away, and my phone rang, and it was a it was a private number, so I didn't know who it was.
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And my first thought was, oh god, it's a bride asking where I am.
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It wasn't.
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Obviously, I'd not made that mistake, but that was in the back of my mind.
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I was always worrying.
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And I thought, it's it's too much pressure, I don't enjoy it.
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And when I was there, yeah, I don't know if you've ever photographed weddings, but people have a tendency to grab you and say, Oh, come and photograph me, photograph my friends, and then and then there'll be something will happen.
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Uh, a toddler will be on the dance floor doing something silly, and of course, I photograph the toddler, very good, and then everybody says, Oh, quick, photograph the toddler.
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And I'm like, I've already photographed the toddler.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:55.519
Yeah.
00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:09.519
What ends up happening is you end up shooting everything all of the time because you can't just stand around and do nothing, even though you've already got the shot and you're waiting for that decisive moment.
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:15.919
In the in the eyes of the public, you know, the layman, they think that you're just being lazy.
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:17.200
So I never enjoyed it.
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.360
I it was no, it wasn't for me.
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:34.240
So I decided to decided to open a studio and do product photography, which was nice for a bit because there was no pressure, you know, there wasn't the pressure of live TV or the pressure of missing weddings.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.080
I was in my own cozy studio.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:40.399
I had the dog, I could get a few products in, take my time, shoot them.
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:46.399
But what I very quickly realized that product photography is nothing more than a race to the bottom.
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.759
There's always always someone out there who'll do it cheaper.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:50.639
Oh my.
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:53.600
So it's kind of like, okay, this is just not sustainable.
00:16:53.840 --> 00:17:02.000
You know, somebody would send, I don't know, 10 products, and I would quote them at I don't know, like£100 per image or something.
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.119
And they'll say, oh, well, such and such will do it for five pounds per image, because people can do it in the bedroom.
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.119
Well, it's a very low bar to entry.
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.319
You're just doing a camera and a lighting setup.
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:13.759
It's fairly simple to do.
00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:15.920
So that was a disaster.
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.960
And and there are those people out there with perceived value.
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.359
They say, Yeah, somebody else will do it for five pounds.
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:22.640
I cost five thousand.
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:23.920
I'm you know, I'm that good.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.200
And then of course, somebody's gonna fork that over too.
00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:30.799
In 2014, you do something extraordinary.
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:32.880
Yeah, if you want to call it that.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:37.440
Well, you know, how many million views do you have?
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:38.240
Yeah, come on.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.720
Okay, so in in 2014, um, did you really tape and I and your iPhone to a stick?
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:46.640
I did, yeah, because I had a selfie stick, but didn't have the attachment to put it on my phone.
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:48.400
So I just used tape.
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:49.519
That was it.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:51.839
And and you did this on a whim?
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.079
Or or or was this an intentional business plan?
00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.839
Oh god, no, this was not a business plan until seven years later.
00:17:58.160 --> 00:17:58.799
Oh my.
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.640
This is just again, this was landscape photography was still my hobby.
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:08.000
I just I was watching YouTube back in 2014 and I couldn't find what I was looking for.
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:08.960
It was that simple.
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:15.759
There was very few entertaining or inspirational landscape photography videos.
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:21.839
There was lots of cool mountain bike content and motorsport content.
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:31.039
Um, Red Bull were doing a lot where you'd they'd film, you know, skiers skiing down really incredible runs and extreme sports and that kind of thing.
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:36.160
So you'd watch those things and then you'd be inspired to go skiing or go mountain biking.
00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:45.759
And I thought, I wonder if anybody's making videos that's going to inspire me to wake up at four in the morning because I'm feeling quite tired and I do not want to go out and shoot tomorrow, even though I promised myself I would.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:49.200
So I need that kick up the backside to get me motivated.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.759
So I'm searching YouTube and there's nothing.
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:58.000
There's two photographers, Ben Horn and Nick Carver, both doing in-field content, which was very cool.
00:18:58.319 --> 00:18:59.759
But that was it.
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:05.519
Everyone else was very much talking heads, very dull, not exciting content.
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:20.960
So I was like, why is nobody going and filming a photography adventure kind of discovery channel style, you know, showing the landscape, showing the images, showing the settings, the gear, getting people ready and getting people in the mood and inspired for photography.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.000
There was nothing like that.
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:23.519
So I thought, I'm gonna make it.
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:28.799
And it wasn't so that because back then you it wasn't a known thing that you could make YouTube into a job.
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.039
I just thought maybe a few more people would see my images, and that was it.
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.839
I just I just saw it as an extension to Flickr.
00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:42.079
So I would go out and make a video and show it, show an image, and it did really well.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:44.319
Like lots of people viewed it and lots of people wanted more.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:51.039
So it's like, oh, okay, I'll, you know, a few weeks later I'll do another one, and then a month later, another one, and then three months later, another one.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:58.480
My biggest regret probably is not realizing the full potential and going full on, you know, from day one.
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:07.440
I think what you know, one of the things about not knowing the full potential, whether it's entrepreneurship or anything else, is that you basically make it in your own version as you go along.
00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:12.160
Um, you know, there's there's no template sitting out there saying, here's the markers of success.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:16.079
Um, because you're you're you're self-defining all the way through.
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:22.000
But you just used a word at least a half dozen times, which is one of the things I really want to land on.
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.920
You said you wanted to make videos that were inspiring.
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:41.200
I watch a lot of your videos, and about two-thirds of the way through, you may throw in some technical advice, but really you are all about storytelling, you're about inspiration, you're about the narrative of going out into the field.
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:48.480
Tell me more about you know, being inspired yourself, um, but also sharing that inspiration with your audience.
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:49.599
Well, it's quite simple.
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:52.240
I mean, I make the videos that I want to watch.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:58.079
So when I watch content on YouTube, there's two types of content that I watch on YouTube, right?
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:02.000
One is a video that I'm trying to get information.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.559
So I'm thinking, I need to learn this thing.
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:05.599
How do I do it?
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:09.440
And I'll click on a video and I'll skip, skip, skip, skip, skip.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:10.400
There's the information.
00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:11.119
Thank you very much.
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:11.759
Goodbye.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:16.960
Don't know the person, don't know the name, didn't like, didn't subscribe, didn't do anything, got the information, got in, got out.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:17.839
Thank you.
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:22.720
The other type of video I watch is right, let's get a cup of tea, let's sit down.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.519
You know, my wife's out, got the house to myself.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:28.720
Let's put on a video, sit back and enjoy.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.359
And those videos are the ones I connect with.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:38.720
I connect with the creator, I connect with the content, and usually they tell a good story, good cinematics, and it draws me in.
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.640
I get drawn into them, and and then I want to go and do that thing.
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:44.160
Uh so those are the best videos.
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:50.400
So when I make not all of the time, admittedly, but most of my videos, that's the kind of thing I go for.
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:59.279
And with regards to the technical information, what I very quickly realized is that landscape photography, you need about three pieces of advice, and that's it.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.640
So you Can't just keep saying the same thing week in, week out.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.000
You just repeat yourself.
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:10.960
So you've got to tell a story because stories are just endless, you know, endless narratives that can go in different directions.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:16.000
I shouldn't put down the amount of advice, technical advice in in your work.
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.920
You've got a video out there, you know, about using a long lens versus wide angle.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:27.680
You've got a video out there where you know where you're messing with different aspect ratios, um, you know, trying to figure out the best composition.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:36.240
And you talk about composition uh quite a lot, uh, discovering compositions, happening upon them, planning them, that kind of stuff.
00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.799
But but I was really just smiling.
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:40.480
I forget which video it was now.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:41.920
I you know, I watched the whole thing.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:48.720
I think this is the one where you go on a hike to Sun Lock and one of your subscribers actually walks by you unexpectedly.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:55.039
But about two-thirds of the way through, you sort of look at the camera and you think, well, you know, 10-stop ND filter about F-22.
00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:00.640
And then I think that's the entire technical advice, uh the entire video.
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:05.279
And it was a mesmerizing, fascinating, deeply moving video.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:12.559
So, I mean, do you get away from the technical because that's the information that anybody can find?
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:14.720
Or how do you approach that?
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:24.000
Yeah, my I typically I assume that everybody knows, you know, everybody knows where to focus and how to get a long exposure or whatever.
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:33.359
Like, yeah, the thing is, like I say, if I'm doing videos for 10 years, I just repeat myself and I'm conscious of repeating myself.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:36.480
So I tend not to focus too much on the technicals.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.119
I will, if there's anything worth saying, I'll say it.
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:44.319
But mostly it's composition because that's the most important thing by far is the composition.
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:51.119
Like technical stuff you can fix if you go wrong, even though you probably won't go wrong because cameras are so good these days.
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:57.200
Rocket on auto and then autofocus, aperture priority, done.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.000
Um, but composition, if you get that wrong, well, that's it, you're done.
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:03.839
You need to go back and reshoot it.
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.920
So um, so composition is definitely the most important thing.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.920
It's also the thing that varies the most.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:25.920
Most of my images are F11, um ISO 64, and then the shutter speed is what it is, unless the shutter speed is important, for example, obviously uh motion like a breaking wave or a stormy sky or something like that.
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:34.480
So then I'll you know I'll mention shutter speed briefly, but generally speaking, it's it's all just the same and gets a bit boring and a bit repetitive.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:52.400
But what never gets boring or repetitive is the composition because there's so many variables from image to image, the story as well, when things aren't going well and then there's a moment of light and it all turns around in a second, those kind of things, that's that's really what I think hooks people into the videos.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:25:02.640
Well, talk to me a little bit more about composition in landscape photography and how you define uh merit or or successful or or good composition.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:15.440
Because watching a couple of of your videos, uh there was the one where you went to the beach, uh, you were worried about the tide coming in, um, and there's a beautiful S-curve to a little you know stream coming in into the ocean there.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:22.960
And you in, I think in that one you included a foreground rock, which had some nice patterns and beautiful, beautiful composition.
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:31.200
In a separate video, you're at a different lake, different lock, and there's some boulders in the water right in front of you, and you say, ah, that's m that's mundane.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.640
So how do you is is it just intuited?
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:42.880
Um, or do you have an aesthetic in your mind for what a worthwhile landscape composition might be?
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.119
No, it's fully, fully intuitive.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:50.480
There are no rules, and it's a bit of a cliche to say there's no rules, but there really are no rules.
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:55.759
You need to disregard rules of thirds and golden ratios and all that sort of stuff.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:57.359
It's quite simple.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:00.960
It has to feel right and it has to be well balanced.
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:02.559
And that's about it.
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:07.759
For me, working compositions, usually I look at things from a sort of pessimistic point of view.
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.839
So I look for things that I don't want in my frame as opposed to things I do want in my frame.
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:13.599
So get rid of this, get rid of that.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.759
That's no good, that's distracting, that's messy.
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:22.160
I wish that thing wasn't there, and then break down the landscape and try and just keep in what's important.
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:33.200
And sometimes there are elements like the image you just mentioned, where we have some textured rock in the foreground, and then we have the sweep of the S curve out to the head of the beach.
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:34.160
Beautiful image, yeah.
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:41.680
Yeah, I mean, and that was I was just probably experimenting and it worked because previous to that I shot more or less the same image but without that rock.
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:43.680
Um, and that worked as well.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:47.599
So yeah, it's it's definitely intuitive.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:59.119
I don't what I never do, or very rarely, is put things on my thirds and then make sure that I've got three subjects and make sure that I've got foreground interest that's sharp from to back.
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:01.119
It doesn't work like that.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:04.319
It's yeah, it's far more intuitive.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.960
Like I don't use wide angle lenses very much.
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:12.319
So I usually shoot most of my landscapes around about 50 mil, all the way up to 400.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:17.279
So there's not much, you know, there's not much room for foregrounds when you're shooting those focal lengths.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:20.640
So yeah, I just I just go with what feels right and what interests me.
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:24.960
It's always worth asking yourself, why are you standing where you're standing?
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:31.759
Like just take a minute and try and analyze exactly why you've stopped and why you're currently setting up a tripod.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:39.279
And then that might help you break down the landscape a bit more and then sort of refine your uh your composition.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:41.440
Is there a Thomas Heaton style?
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:43.039
No, everyone asks this question.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:43.680
Definitely not.
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:49.359
My if you look at my portfolio, which God knows I don't even have a portfolio at the minute because my website's so outdated.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:53.839
But um, no, my I have no style because I shoot everything.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:55.759
I just shoot what excites me.
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:59.680
I shoot minimalist calm stuff, but I also shoot powerful stuff.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:04.400
I shoot panos, I shoot black and white, I shoot film, I shoot digital, I shoot wildlife.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.759
Uh so personally, I don't think I have a style.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:08.960
I'm very open.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.559
I shoot woodland, I'll shoot deserts, I'll shoot mountains.
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:14.720
I just want to go and have fun with the camera.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:25.119
I think if I worried about having a style, I think I would pigeonhole myself and then I would almost not shoot things because it didn't fit with my style.
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.119
So I think I'd be doing myself a disservice.
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:34.400
So I know photographers that only shoot one specific thing and they literally do not shoot anything else.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:35.839
And I think, what a shame.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.960
Do you not want to travel to Namibia and see the desert?
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:44.799
Like that's you know, but you know, you can't because the desert doesn't fit in with the their style.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.599
So I think it can be detrimental having a style.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:54.880
I I I'm not gonna disagree with you, but I mean you can compose with light as your subject as well as whatever the content might be.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:58.880
And so I'm wondering if there isn't, you know, a Tom Heaton approach to light.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:05.440
Because you talk about light in a lot of your videos, um, you know, where you're waiting for a certain look to come along.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:16.000
So would you agree that uh a sense of light, um, when I say vibrancy, I don't mean oversaturation, but but a really dramatic light is a signature of yours?
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:17.599
Maybe.
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:23.039
I'm just looking at the images in my office that I've been printing off recently, and none of them have light.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:23.759
Oh, really?
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.799
No, because I mean it depends how you what you call light.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:40.880
Like for me, light is anything like light can be direct, vibrant, contrasting light that's shining on a subject, or it can be a warm, soft glow that is barely noticeable.
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:42.720
You know, you can just feel it.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:49.920
You don't even see it, you can just feel that the landscape's warmed up a bit and there's a slight lift on some of the subjects.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.720
So, okay, yeah, light is essential.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:59.519
And whenever I'm framing a composition and it's not working, the first thing I say is, oh, the light's terrible.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:03.920
So yeah, okay, light, light is everything without a shadow of a doubt.
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:06.000
Light can make or break an image.
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:10.960
Um, but also there are so many good images that do not depend on light.
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:12.079
So meh.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:13.680
Yeah, no style.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:14.240
Sorry.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:15.519
Okay, okay.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:23.119
Well, now the the there is I had you know uh one of your videos I really enjoyed because it's sort of an anti-video.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.240
You are not a great fan of street photography.
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.960
Well, no, the thing is for yourself, I should say.
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:29.680
Yeah, I am.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.880
I want to be.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:33.200
I want to be, but I just can't.
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:41.519
Like, like so, you know how I would describe it is I want to be the man that walks into a room and everybody's my best friend.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:43.039
I want to light the place up.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:48.799
I want to be charismatic, I want to meet people, I want to walk into a party and hey, Tom's it, but it's just not true.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:49.839
That's not me.
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:57.759
I'm quiet, I'm reserved, and I'll never be the man that walks into a room or a party and lights it up.
00:30:57.920 --> 00:30:58.720
Never gonna happen.
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:01.200
I'll walk into a room, people don't even know I'm in that room.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:02.799
Okay, I'm very quiet.
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.880
And it's the same with street photography.
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:07.200
I wish I had an invisibility cloak.
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:18.480
I could walk around and I would shoot so much stuff, but I freeze as soon as I have a camera and somebody notices me with that camera.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:19.680
I can't do it.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:25.519
I can't photograph, I can't photograph people because I feel so intrusive and I feel so rude.
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.920
And I just because I wouldn't like having my picture taken if I was out in the street.
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:35.039
So, how can I go and then point a camera in someone's face or even in someone's direction?
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.200
So I I struggle with it.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.440
I think I'm probably too inside of my own head, and most people don't care.
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:43.680
But I basically I feel like a pervert.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:44.559
That's what I feel like.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:45.759
I feel like I shouldn't be there.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:47.599
I'm doing something wrong, and I shouldn't.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:49.680
It's just the way it is.
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:55.039
There are several thousand street photographers listening to this right now who are saying, excuse me, wait a minute.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:59.039
No, I'm not saying there are a pervert, don't get me wrong, but that's how I feel.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:02.319
Like I feel I feel like I'm doing something wrong.
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:06.319
So it's not a problem with street photography, it's a problem with me.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:07.119
100%.
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:09.359
So I love street photography.
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:11.519
I love the work of street photographers.
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:20.960
I've taken my expan into the underground stations of Budapest, and it's beautiful because they're all empty, right?
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.200
But one person walking away.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:24.000
That's another thing.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:27.599
Look at my street photography portfolio, it's the back of people's heads.
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.240
I can do that because they're not looking at me.
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:40.079
But you know, you get these amazing street photographs where a girl waiting at a subway station looks up and makes eye contact with a camera, snap, decisive moment.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.200
I can't do that.
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:45.680
If a girl looked up or anyone looked up whilst I had the camera, I wouldn't take a shot.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.119
I would drop the camera, look the other direction, and start whistling.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:51.200
Like, I can't do it.
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:59.119
Your videos show you have a very um considered, mindful approach to the landscape work.
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:05.759
Um, you know, you really do visually survey the landscape you're in.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.160
Is speediness also to your work?
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:15.039
I mean, do you sometimes you say, you know, I need my camera right now because this cloud's in the right place, or do this wave's doing something?
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:16.000
Yeah, all the time.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:23.680
I always that's how I feel like most of my photography is like rushing, always rushing because the landscape is so dynamic.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:24.880
It really is dynamic.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:25.920
Like I'll give you an example.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:30.079
I was out in my van two days ago, beautiful snowfall overnight.
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:36.240
So I woke up in the morning to fresh snow that was all it was it was covered, the landscape.
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:45.200
The snow had there was no wind, so the snow had rested on all the branches of the trees, so the trees looked like they've been decorated in thick icing sugar.
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:46.799
It was beautiful.
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.160
And I thought I better hurry up because the wind is gonna start soon.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:56.640
So I'm frantically flapping around, even though to the untrained eye it looks as if the landscape was not moving at all.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:02.720
I knew that in 15 minutes that wind was going to pick up and the snow was gonna drop off all of the trees, and then that's it.
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.480
Game over, landscape ruined.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:10.079
Um, so I did, I got my bag, I walk in, trying to get to my location, running, getting hot, sweaty.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:13.679
And every step I took, I could feel the wind blowing more and more.
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:18.480
And by the time I'd got to where I was hoping to shoot, it was it was over.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:22.000
So I always feel like I'm rushing.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.599
Let's talk about the videos for a little bit.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.559
Because I mean, there's a lot of B-roll in there.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:34.719
Um, you know, the van pulling into a parking area, the van leaving a parking area, you know, you opening doors and stuff.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:50.960
You know, you've got a really good sense, you know, not only of how to tell a visual story, but there's a lot of work that goes on, you know, just to just to make the story intelligible and compelling for me sitting here in my office in the in the middle of Minnesota.
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:51.679
Yeah.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.280
You know, do you script your your videos?
00:34:55.360 --> 00:35:02.000
Or do you know, you know, I need to go set up the tripod, drive back a couple hundred yards and then pull into the car park again?
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:06.079
How considered is is the sort of the mechanical side of the video?
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:07.280
It's very considered.
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:09.920
Like I don't script anything, it just happens as it happens.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.800
But I'm as I'm filming in my head, I'm editing.
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.519
So I know what I need to tell a good story.
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:17.840
And it's hard work and you have to work hard.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:18.639
You can't be lazy.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:28.719
As soon as you're a lazy filmmaker, well, you're just a bad filmmaker, you need to put the work in, you need to get a shot of this, a shot of that, get things from two angles to really tell the story.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:33.679
Because the goal is to pull in the viewer, pull them into your world.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:39.119
And you don't do that by holding a GoPro up to your face and telling your camera settings.
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:40.960
You have to tell the story.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:45.119
Um, and it's it's hard work and it it can get in the way of photography.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:47.679
I try not to let it like a lot of my videos.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:56.239
I actually work backwards, so I take the photograph first, and then when I've got the photograph, then I'll pack all my gear away and then I'll film myself setting up.
00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:00.079
So it's um to make sure I don't compromise the the photograph.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:02.960
But yeah, it's it's just it's just hard, man.
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.440
It's but what it's it's kind of like driving a car.
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:09.039
Once you've done it for a while, it just becomes second nature.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:15.360
Well, I and you know, having watched a great many of them, I'm always you know curious about what you see and what you don't see.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:21.760
And you have some beautiful shots of you know you talking to the camera, and your tripod is still in your backpack.
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:26.559
So clearly there's a second tripod out there, which we've never seen you schlepping around.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:32.079
Is it really mostly after the photograph that you that you do the storytelling?
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:33.920
Uh uh not all the time.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:35.199
A lot of the time.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:44.559
When there's you know, when it's dynamic and the lights moving fast, I can't spend 10 minutes setting up video cameras and putting my camera on the tripod and then getting the drone out.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:47.519
Because by the time I get round to shooting the image, the light may have gone.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:55.519
So forget video, just chuck the video camera on the floor, get the camera out, relax, take five minutes, take the shot.
00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:02.320
Once I know I have a photograph worth talking about, then I'll go back to filming.
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:07.039
Because for every photograph I share in a video, that's like 20 minutes work.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:14.079
So I have to tell the story, film the b-roll, explain why I'm shooting it, maybe show some drone footage.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:23.360
Um so to do all of that before actually getting the shots, which may or may not be any good, you can end up wasting a lot of time.
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:25.360
You're absolutely right.
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:31.920
But I'm also thinking you have you have a recent video where you hike up a hill and the weather closes in and you don't get the shot.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.960
And then you go back a few days later and you do.
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:39.679
And the sense of discovery, the sense of, is this going to work?
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:41.360
Um, is the narrative hook.
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:47.199
I mean, basically, I keep you know watching this to see, you know, is the hero going to slay the dragon at the end?
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.079
Yeah, I mean, every good story has conflict.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.320
So it's not just a beginning and middle of an end.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:58.639
It's it's this happens, this happens, but oh no, this has happened.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:03.840
Uh so it's the it's a journey of conflict, essentially.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.639
Like on a very basic level, am I going to get the shot?
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:09.679
That's what it comes down to.
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:09.920
Right.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:20.559
I mean, if I was to make the video just from me setting up the tripod in front of my subject when the light's good, that would be a three-minute video of a nice image.
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:21.840
No one would care.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:23.199
Nobody cares.
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:37.280
But if I start the video the day before talking about my anticipation about how the weather forecast may or may not be accurate and how it's cold and I'm tired and I've driven all the way here, but my battery is low and I'm not got any food, and I've got to walk three hours up this hill.
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:38.639
I've got a sore leg.
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:42.480
The light's not happening, the light's getting worse, there's no light, I'm wasting my time.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:44.159
Oh my god, there's the light, get the shot.
00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:47.039
Frantic, frantic, frantic, go, go, go, got the image.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.079
And then so it's a story, it's it's a it's a constant uh up and down.
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:53.599
And those are the best, you know.
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:54.800
It doesn't always happen.
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:56.719
You can't force these things.
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:04.639
But even without realizing it, I'm sure when your listeners go out and shoot, there's always conflict and uncertainty.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:10.079
Even just little things like, am I wearing the right clothing for this temperature?
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.840
Small things like that.
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:18.320
This this all goes to building a story, and and that's sort of how I approach my YouTube videos.
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.679
It's always, I always try to make it more than a photo shoot.
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:30.559
The the genius of your photographs is that what I'm really interested in, you know, yes, I there's got I know there's going to be a good photograph at the end, or you know, probably.
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:32.239
Um, but I'm interested in you.
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:42.880
I'm interested in the struggles you've got, the the anxieties, the questions that you've got, because you know, like reading a novel, I'm projecting myself into that place as well.
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:50.880
So, you know, when you when you are saying, you know, the weather's this or the weather's that, I'm thinking, God, I know, I know this situation.
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:52.880
Were you a big reader growing up, by the way?
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.719
No, I know you said you did you didn't like school very much, but I want to be a reader.
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.239
I just I just not very good reader.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:59.920
I think I must be slightly dyslexic.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.920
It takes me a long time to read books.
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:05.119
So I like photography books because, well, they're picked books.
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:06.239
So that's nice and easy.
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:09.199
I like audio books because all the hard work is done for me.
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:12.320
But I'm just I'm not a good reader.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:12.719
No.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:17.519
A couple things that that that you mentioned, and then there's so many questions I I still want to want to get to.
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:24.000
Um, you mentioned the drone a little bit, and and we'll talk about the power lines in in the United States in a minute.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:35.280
But but has has the drone changed your yeah, you use it for the videos, but has it changed your understanding of still photography?
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:35.920
No.
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:36.880
Really?
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:38.800
No, I don't like drone photography.
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:44.239
Um, I find it hollow and empty because you're so disconnected from the landscape.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.599
I'm gonna fly this drone two miles away, looking at a screen.
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:48.880
It's like playing a video game.
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:51.119
And you're like, oh, there's there's a shot, click.
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:56.480
Like there's no, you're not in the landscape, you're not a part of it, so I don't therefore don't connect with the image.
00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:01.119
Don't get me wrong, but there are some amazing images from drones.
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:05.440
There, you know, there's there's whole competitions and awards for just drone photography.
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:08.960
Like some of the work I see is so incredible, but it's not for me.
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:10.639
And there's no story with a drone.
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:12.000
What you what's the story gonna be?
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.119
I'll launch my drone again and flew it two miles away.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:18.159
Like it, there's there's no conflict.
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:21.519
I don't know, maybe the maybe the battery is low and the wind picks up.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:22.400
I don't know.
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:28.400
I it I've tried, but I just feel like I'm playing a computer game.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:31.440
I'm not connected with the images at all.
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:34.800
Talk to me a little bit about drama.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:37.360
Now, yeah, you have been all over the world.
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:42.480
You you know, the the UK, Ireland, Europe, Nepal, um, South America?
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:50.559
You've been uh a great many places, and you've been in a lot of bad weather, you've been in a lot of good weather, too.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:42:03.840
Um, what is the role that visual drama, whether it's a mountain or a crashing wave, um, you know, plays in your understanding of what appeals to you as a landscape photographer?
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:06.320
Oh, that's a good question.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.039
Hmm.
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:18.639
Well, firstly, I travel because I love the excitement of seeing somewhere for the first time and being immersed in a new culture in a landscape that feels completely alien to me.
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.239
Um, in terms of drama, yeah.
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:26.159
I mean, who doesn't love dramatic landscapes and dramatic skies?
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:31.119
Uh, but I also like completely peaceful scenes as well where there's no drama.
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:37.280
So, yeah, to be honest, I'm not really sure how to answer your question.
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:39.440
I just love I just like everything.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.760
Um, I like the mountains, don't get me wrong.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:44.960
I like the effort I've been to work hard physically for an image.
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:47.039
I think it's very rewarding.
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:59.920
Um, I'm not a fan of pulling up at a car park, jumping out of the car, and then there's the shot, unless it's very spontaneous one where you're driving the past and it's like, oh my god, look at that.
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.159
And you pull over and there's the shot.
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:03.679
That's different, that's fun.
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:13.280
But just going to places that you know you don't have to work very hard for, I I like to have to look and search for my images.
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:19.360
You have a recent video where you drove by a road and you said, I gotta come back.
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:29.199
Not because there was a specific framing that you saw, but just the experience of being on that road called you back to see what pictures might be discoverable.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:31.039
Yeah, absolutely, because that was incredible.
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:39.519
And that's that's how I like to do landscape photography, not specifically seeing images, but just enjoying being in a particular area.
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:44.880
Like hiking in a trail that perhaps goes through a woodland and out into a desert or something.
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:52.000
Like there's there's no immediate images noticeable, but just the environment itself is a very pleasant one to be in.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:59.840
I think that's a good place to start rather than going out and searching for epic viewpoints or honeypot locations.
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:05.119
Just start in an environment that you know you enjoy being in.
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:13.280
You've had a number of situations where uh things could have turned you know south really quick, but didn't.
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:18.480
What what what are the stories that you tell over cocktails when someone says, tell me a story?
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:20.960
Oh, you put me on the spot.
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:28.239
Uh okay, well, um I mean, photographically speaking, oh, one of the best stories.
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.519
Probably I was hiking in the Alps.
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:41.280
It was in Switzerland, and uh staying in a mountain refuge high up in the mountains, and when we hiked all day the day before, arrived at the hut quite late.
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:48.719
It's the typical thing where you're exhausted, you just want some food, some beer, and then you just want to go to bed.
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:56.800
And that's the most difficult because waking up for sunrise the next morning is nigh on impossible when you're that tired and fatigued.
00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:07.119
And I specifically remember being in this mountain hut, and it has a beautiful view of the most incredible glacier with an almost perfect mountain peak at the bottom of the glacier.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:08.559
Like it's it's unbelievable.
00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:12.320
But when we arrived at the mountain hut, it was completely clouded in.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:19.440
You couldn't see 50 feet in front of you, zero visibility, but that was okay because we were tired and we just wanted some food and drink.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:22.639
And I set my alarm for about 5 a.m.
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:24.159
the next morning.
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:36.960
And I remember I was with a friend of mine who was also a photographer, and my alarm went off, and I looked out of the window, and it was just grey, just thick grey cloud, couldn't see a thing.
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:42.079
And my friend looked at me and he looks at the window and he says, Oh no, dude, I'm going back to bed.
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:47.360
And I almost went back to bed, and I thought, yeah, but I'm never gonna be here again.
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:51.280
I may as well, just in case, get my camera and go for a walk.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:52.639
I'm awake anyway.
00:45:52.880 --> 00:46:02.079
So I got my camera, went outside onto this completely in the mountains, like these Swiss mountain huts, they're just in the most incredible locations.
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:03.280
You know, there's no access to them.
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:06.079
You have to hike for hours or days to get there.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:08.239
Um, and there was zero visibility.
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:12.239
I knew there was a glacier, I knew there was a mountain, but again I couldn't see it.
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:16.480
And by now it's about sunrise, and I was really disappointed.
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:23.440
But I had this just sense of hope that maybe, just maybe the clouds will drop because that's what happens in the mountains.
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:25.840
The clouds come and go in a second.
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:30.079
So I hung around, and then I thought I was imagining it.
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:34.719
I could see some lights breaking through the clouds, and I was like, no, no.
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:44.320
So I got my camera, set up my tripod, hoping, keeping my fingers crossed, and the cloud base dropped, parted, and opened to the most incredible view.
00:46:44.400 --> 00:47:04.960
In you're talking about 30 seconds, going from zero visit visibility to complete crisp alpen glow on this mountain peak with the glacier running beautifully up to it, the clouds parted, yet still left some atmosphere, and I was flapping, and I was running around, shooting it, trying to get my composition, trying to film it.
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:14.400
And then I had the pure elation of walking back into my bedroom, camera in hand, and shoving it in my friend's face.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:16.559
Going, look what you missed.
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:20.079
And uh lesson learned, he's never skipped a sunrise.
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:31.360
You say in a lot of videos, probably the the greatest danger that the landscape photographer faces is a lack of getting out there.
00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:36.159
Um, you know, just being you know, lazy or saying it's raining or whatever.
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:40.880
Is simply being out there the actual reward that we're we're looking for?
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:41.840
Yeah, of course.
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:42.880
A hundred percent.
00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:49.599
Like if you if you do landscape photography and you see the images as your reward, you're doing yourself a disservice.
00:47:49.760 --> 00:48:03.519
You need to almost forget about the images and you need to start seeing the reward in the fact that you're lucky enough to be in such a beautiful place to begin with, you're lucky enough that you can actually walk and be out in these locations.
00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:08.239
You're lucky enough to be able to see the sunrise when 99% of people are in bed.
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:23.679
So when you start appreciating the journey and the process and not worrying about the image, then that takes away a lot of expectation, it takes away a lot of stress, and as a result, your images will flourish because you're not running around trying to shoot everything, desperately trying to get that image.
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:27.519
You only shoot when you feel inspired and when you see something.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:37.039
Um, and it's so easy to talk yourself out of going for a photo shoot, like, oh, the weather's not looking good, it probably there probably won't be any light.
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.800
But unless you're out there, well, you're not gonna get anything.
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.079
So being a fair weather photographer is no good.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.400
You need to commit and go.
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:48.400
And if it's no good, it doesn't matter.
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.840
Still what you've been out, you've had a walk, it's fine, it happens.
00:48:52.159 --> 00:49:01.119
But there will be times when the conditions are incredible, and you you you were right, you know, the the light did come or the frost or or whatever.
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:07.440
And you'll often find that in those situations there's no one else around because everyone else stayed in bed.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:18.719
It is um you're making me think of a story from several years ago where um Lake Superior is on the other side of the state from where I am here in Minnesota, and they have great, great big storms in November.
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:20.800
And I said, okay, I'm gonna photograph that sometime.
00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:28.800
And I got all these permissions to be out um in this lighthouse that's at the end of a jetty, um, you know, that you're you're never supposed to be able to get to.
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:33.280
But I spent, you know, probably six to eight months getting permissions and all this kind of stuff.
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.719
So here comes the storms.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:50.639
I drive over there, and I was really, really envious because when I got there, there was probably 15 to 20 photographers, all in cold weather, storm gear, all huddled down right at the water's edge, you know, doing the work.
00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:52.559
And I thought, God, this is fantastic.
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:55.039
You know, bad weather, who are you gonna see outside?
00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:56.079
The landscape people.
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:58.239
They're gonna chase for it.
00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:04.079
Talk to me for a minute about the other end of the process, because you got a video on this.
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:12.000
You just bought a uh big old honk and expensive printer to have what, more control over the print?
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:19.280
Or why not send the file to some big company that's got a machine already up and running?
00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:23.440
Well, for starters, that big brand new printer is now broken.
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:26.000
So you know, I want to get that out there.
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:28.079
Uh well, well, okay, but it's gonna be fixed.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:31.920
It's gonna be fixed, but still I don't think it should have broken after four prints.
00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:32.880
Really?
00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:33.679
Was it just four?
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:36.079
Well, I haven't gone through a full roll of paper yet.
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:41.679
So um, yeah, two, three large prints and a handful of smaller prints.
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:42.480
Not much.
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:45.920
Anyway, no, you know, that's neither here nor there.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:46.960
That's get them replaced.
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:48.480
It'll be running again soon.
00:50:48.639 --> 00:50:48.800
Yeah.
00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:51.840
So I I just uh I have a sour taste in my mouth.
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.360
I just need to get that out there.
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:55.440
But why'd you do it in the first place?
00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:00.639
Uh well, I love printing and I want to sell more prints.
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:07.599
That's kind of my 2025 thing, so that I can move away from sponsorships on my videos, which are very disruptive.
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:11.039
So I need to replace the income from those sponsorships.
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:12.880
So I often get print requests.
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:17.519
Now I do have a Canon Pro 1000, which is an A2 printer, right?
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.599
But A2 doesn't cut the mustard.
00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:22.559
I like big statement pieces, big panoramics.
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:29.920
And I got excited when the firmware upgrade was announced for the Pro 1000, which meant you could print panoramics from it.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.519
So essentially it would allow you to print up to 1.2 meters wide, which is good for an A3 printer.
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:37.119
But it was a disaster, it didn't work.
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:40.400
The printer was never designed to print from a role.
00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:45.119
So trying to feed in a sheet of paper that's 1.2 meters long, utter disaster.
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:50.000
It was striking the print head, it was catching, tearing, it was awful.
00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:56.239
Um, the thing is, it's all about having a barrier to entry.
00:51:56.480 --> 00:52:06.559
If you print from a lab, you're far less likely to make prints because you've got to get the image and you've got to send it off to a lab, you've got to pay, you have to wait for it to be delivered or go and collect it.
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:07.920
There's a lot of obstacles.
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:15.199
So, unless it's a really amazing image, like five-star once-in-a-lifetime thing, yeah, you're probably not going to print it.
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:17.280
Your images just end up on a hard drive.
00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:22.000
Whereas if you have your own printer, then it's so much more accessible.
00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:34.639
You'll print stuff just because I think an image, an image can, it's a very difficult thing to articulate, but you get images that on a screen, they're okay, but they work so well as a print.
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:39.599
So you learn that by printing lots of your images and seeing what works and what doesn't work.
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:43.679
And in terms of selling prints, yeah, no, I need complete control.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:45.679
Um I'm a control freak.
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:52.960
Like, I don't have any staff, I don't let anyone edit my videos, I don't let anyone film me when I'm out making videos, it's all just myself.
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:54.559
Um, and that's probably a bad thing.
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:56.400
I'm not very good at relinquishing control.
00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:59.760
And I've never had any problems using a lab.
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:07.039
However, I just love the fact that I can get an order and then I can go, oh great, I've got an order.
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:12.719
And then I can just turn around, load the file, make the print, check it, great, sign it, pack it, send it.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:14.320
Just keep everything in-house.
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:15.760
It's so much better.
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:24.880
Oh, I I would need second or third mortgages just to pay for all the test prints and then the I wonder what would happen if I do this kind kind of idea.
00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:31.679
Um, but but but I like like I said, man, at the very beginning, I am envious from beginning, middle, and end.
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:32.639
Tom, what's next?
00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:34.320
What what do you have your your next trip planned?
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:37.519
Your next video, you know, we're recording this on January 7th.
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:39.360
Do you know what your next video is going to be?
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:51.039
Yeah, so my next video, which is already late because I'm just behind on everything, is um I'm actually it's a it's like a a bit more of a creative uh it's it, yeah.
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:52.960
I I make a print and then I make a frame.
00:53:53.039 --> 00:54:04.800
So there's a bit of woodworking and and constructing a frame and and going through the process of trying to build that and fit my own glass and make my own print because I have a space in my office that's dying out for a panoramic print.
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:08.239
But of course, you can't just go to the shop and buy a panoramic frame.
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:11.280
So you have to either specially order one or just make it yourself.
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:13.519
So it's like, great, let's make it myself.
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:15.199
Um, so that's my next video.
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:16.480
My next big trip.
00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:19.920
Uh I'll go to Bolivia in March, April.
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:20.559
Oh, really?
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:21.519
Yeah, that'll be good.
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:22.960
Um, so I'm excited for that.
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:30.480
Lots of high altitude, open deserts, you know, alien landscapes, as I like to say, or alien to me at least, anyway.
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:34.239
Well, and I am certainly gonna be among the first to watch that one when it comes out.
00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:38.000
Yeah, thank you very much, man.
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:40.159
This has been a fascinating conversation.
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:48.960
And then, like I said at the top, I look at your work, the you know, the the images themselves, and I'm just you know envious as hell.
00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:53.920
I I watch the videos and I think that this man knows how to tell a story better than anyone else.
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:54.719
Thank you very much.
00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:55.920
I've enjoyed every moment of this.
00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:59.039
No, it's my pleasure, and uh yeah, thank you so much for the invite.
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:00.320
It's been a lot of fun.
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:03.679
Frames.
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:08.159
Because excellent photography belongs on paper.
00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:12.800
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