Jens Krauer

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And there's an area which we would probably consider a little bit more of a lower class, kind of red light-ish area.
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And me having grown up in this city, and let's say not being from the top of the food chain in the social system.
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And at some point I was standing at an intersection, and all of a sudden, out of all the buildings around me, people started coming out and surrounding me.
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Happens so that this was a motorcycle group which was in a conflict with another very known motorcycle group, and they were super paranoid about being photographed.
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I have not photographed any of them.
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And so I stand there with all of them around me, and they were about to teach me that this is not the right place to take pictures.
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And it so happens that a friend of mine drove by, jumped out of the car, he knew them, and he was like, hey, what's happening?
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You know, he's cool, and they're like, and everything kind of resolved in the moment.
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But yeah, it's just a good reminder to always be careful or be aware in what environment you're taking pictures.
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This photography podcast is brought to you by Frames, a quarterly printed photography magazine.
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Here is today's host, W.
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Scott Olson, with another fascinating conversation.
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Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to another podcast from Frames Magazine.
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My name is Scott Olson, and today, folks, today we're getting back into one of my absolute most favorite types of photography.
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We're doing street photography.
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And you know what?
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Street photography is just this odd thing because everybody says they do it.
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They go outside, they take a picture.
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You know, wonderful.
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I'm a street photographer.
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And we all know that's not true.
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This is one of the most disciplined, one of the most complicated, and finally one of the most rewarding kinds of photography that's out there.
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And just like 85 million people may play the violin, you get those people who are not only good, they are extraordinarily good.
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And it's not only a technical side, it's a voice, it's a mission.
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It's a way of encountering the world that you move through with a kind of empathy, with a kind of mission.
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Um, and when you've got something to say, when you've got a style, when you've got a purpose, the work just uh seems to automatically elevate.
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And there's nobody out there really doing better or more interesting street photography than Jens Crauer.
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Uh Jens, his work's been all over the place.
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You know, Miami Street Festival, Trieste Photo Days, uh, Photo Trends Festival, Photo Schweitzer, you know, only the most important photo exhibition in Switzerland.
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Um, in 2024, he published a book called In Plain Sight, Candid Urban Encounters, which is just a stellar, rock your socks off kind of book.
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He teaches, he's just been everywhere.
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And you start looking at his work.
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And as a street photographer myself, I look at his work and I'm just feeling humbled.
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I'm just like, okay, I think I know what I'm doing.
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Then I see this guy's work like I have no clue.
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I can't even hold a candle.
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So I am looking forward to today's conversation.
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Jens, welcome to the podcast.
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How are you doing today?
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I'm great.
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Thank you so much.
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Thanks for having me.
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I'm very much looking forward to our conversation.
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I I am too.
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And okay, but we're, you know, like so many podcasts and interviews, we're gonna go back and do a little bit of an or uh origin story.
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You've said elsewhere that your youth was not a very straight line, which I think is is a great line.
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You you know, didn't know it at the time, but you grew up about 50 meters from Robert Frank's house.
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And when you were a kid, you were carrying around aerosol cans.
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You you were tagging the environment uh as a graffiti artist.
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When then, you know, sudden, I have no idea what happened, but you put on a tie one day, you're working for the European Football Association, a few years doing that, and then you decided I'm not gonna wear a tie anymore.
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I'm gonna get back into art, I'm gonna get back into photography.
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So fill in the details there.
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You know, give me a scene of Jens out with the colors and a brick wall and how that got to be someone doing street photography.
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Man, you you really did your proper research.
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Um I'm really I'm really impressed.
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Um, yeah, I mean, you you kind of uh summed it up uh properly.
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There's a lot of uh tones in between that we can consider.
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So for me, street photography basically is going back to the streets where I came from.
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Um I spent a lot of my youth, uh my younger days outside, as you mentioned, with uh aerosol cans in my backpack, and uh probably haven't been what you would exactly call uh a successful career person up to my 30s.
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And it so happened that an opportunity came around, and I thought, yeah, let me let me try that, let me give it a try.
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I did uh eight, eight and a half, nine years of corporate business, figured that that's not for me.
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Uh I mean the money was good, life was good, everything was fine, but it just didn't make me happy, so I figured money doesn't make me happy, which then was the call to go back on the street and uh just not fill my backpack with aerosol, but this time just take a camera.
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Basically, my photography came out at a time when I was working corporate, so we were traveling a lot, there was a lot of hotels, a lot of flying and stuff like that.
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And uh at some point while my friends went to different bars in the evening having drinks before going to bed during these business trips, I just figured I'd take a camera and start uh walking around.
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I've never been the biggest drinker, but uh it was kind of the call back to the streets where I came from, and this is how this all started, and then it developed from there.
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Well, okay, you tell me the story, because you you say in one night, you know, I mean you're taking pictures, you're showing them to your colleagues and stuff, and and you know, clearly you you had some intention to be a photographer.
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Um, but you say that one of your colleagues gave you some constructive feedback, and you and you say that you learned you were photographing colors rather than composing consciously, whatever that might mean a minute.
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You literally went back, converted your entire catalog to black and white, and deleted 80% of your images.
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First of all, what's wrong with composing for color?
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And and tell me about that night where you converted everything and got rid of a bunch of stuff.
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Well, there's absolutely nothing wrong with photographing colors.
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I mean, I love color photography.
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There's amazing talented people doing color photography.
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Um, I just had to learn that it's not the color that makes the picture, and that if you strip a picture of any color or any distraction, what's left is the pure structure of what you would probably also draw if you had a choice.
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So, however, you fill in the black and white, it doesn't matter.
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But the moment you strip it down, you see the clear compositional qualities of an image and the content quality of an image.
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And that's what happened that day.
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And it it completely changed my photography because I started consciously shooting for composition, for content, and not just for a visual impression.
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So that's that's what I would probably say happened when I removed the color.
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Nowadays, uh, it doesn't matter to me if it's if it's black and white or color, because once you see the pictures like that, it it absolutely doesn't matter anymore.
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You just you just find settings, you find circumstances that fit this uh basic compositional need that we have to make a picture look nice.
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Cool.
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I mean now but you know in the graffiti days, that's all super vibrant colors and shape and sort of over-exaggerated patterns.
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You was it just being 10 years older that you had a different vision, or was there something else going on there?
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No, I think it's more or less the same.
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I mean, if you have a feeling for dynamics of space, if you are used to kind of observe in the public space or find places to put stuff, you're already dealing with analyzing your environment.
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And uh I think that in street photography, being able to analyze your environment is is super important.
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So the jump wasn't that big, it was just a different tool and a different goal, but the mindset more or less uh stayed the same.
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I I love this this phrase where you say, you know, you used to wander the streets looking in search of a canvas, okay, you know, a place to put your graffiti.
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Um that that is a projection of you onto the canvas.
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As a street photographer, you're sort of observing, and observation is a loaded word in a minute, um, but you're observing a canvas, and then the the motion of it is more from outside back into inside.
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Or is that not quite what's going on?
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Well, I mean, it's it's just basically things falling together.
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At the end of the day, it's kind of a collage.
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In graffiti, I add something to the existing and therefore creating a collage.
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And at this point in time in photography, I'm just capturing things that are overlaid, that give each other meaning, that somehow play off each other.
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So from my mindset, there's not much that has changed in that regard, except that I I don't uh uh this I mean I don't put colors on walls anymore, which is kind of weird.
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Well, no, no, you know, when you hang one of your colored pictures on a wall somewhere, it's just a more sophisticated form.
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How about that?
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Yeah, and it's a more legal form as well.
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I I appreciate that.
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Now, did did you really just on one night convert everything to black and white and get rid of 80% of your work?
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That actually really, really happened.
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I mean, I I I couldn't say that it's exactly 80%, but I I remember clear as day.
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I mean, I went back to my hotel room.
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I did that in Lightroom, and uh yeah, it just became clear to me what doesn't work, and that was a a big part that I've shot up to this point because I was shooting what, like one and a half or two years at that point in time.
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How did you know at that stage that the work was gonna be sustainable?
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I I didn't.
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I mean, the first with the first no, I really didn't.
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I mean, I I went into this because it made me happy.
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Okay, because it felt like going back to the roots and and I wanted to be out there.
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I spent eight years in an office in a corporate environment.
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I wanted to go back to where I came from and feel the cane the same kind of thing.
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So yeah.
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Okay, but the work was satisfying to you.
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I mean you when you looked at your images at the end of the day, you felt like there were there was something really going on.
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I feel today the same that I felt back then.
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I never really know if it's good or bad, but uh I just I just had a feeling that this will be fine.
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Like if I if I hang if I hang in there and invest a lot of time and energy, I had a feeling that it will be fine.
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The first two years that I shot, I didn't show pictures to anybody.
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I basically just shot for myself, and after two years I showed it to a few friends, and and they told me that might be not so bad.
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So I was deeply insecure about what I did, and at the same time, I was super secure that at some point in time this is gonna work out for me.
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Um, do you have any uh you know photographic training, any schooling?
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I know you you teach workshops, but did you have any schooling when you were growing up?
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No.
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I mean, uh I had my my regular schooling.
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I went to an economy school, but in regards to arts or um photography, no.
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No, no formal training, no studies, nothing.
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So you you did not have a kind of mentor out there that you were saying, I like this person's style, or someone even to explain depth of field in the early days.
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No, none of this.
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I mean, I had one person that would say was super influential for me, which was a Swiss street photographer that today most people don't, I mean, don't remember too much.
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His name was Thomas Loithard, and he was uh kind of big 10, 15 years ago.
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He kind of embraced my efforts and kind of took me in and and taught me a few things, but that was always purely on the philosophy of street photography.
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There was no technical training involved.
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You you have a a really present style, though.
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Um, a lot of it seems to be long lens, you know, with the compression I can see in the background, a lot of it real shallow depth of field.
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Is this just trial and error, or how how do you go about developing a voice that way?
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I think I just started doing it the way I liked it myself.
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And and that might be to a degree different than other people have done it at the time or do it today.
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But uh it's it's my aesthetics.
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I also, I mean, in the beginning I have looked at many other photographers.
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I still collect uh photography books up to this day, but I just went and did it the way I thought it was good for me.
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And the shallow depth of field for me is to to put emphasis on on the human being, to kind of get them out of the environment.
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I never felt like I need to shoot uh F8 or F16.
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I don't I don't want to have so much in the picture, but I like it to have them arranged in a nice way, things falling together.
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This is where the painting comes in, where I'm like, okay, this line needs to be straight in the background, and you know how street photography works, you need to do it in the moment.
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So being super focused in the moment when you shoot, making sure that everything is aligned, you're on the right height, the light is nice.
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I think I just put emphasis on that, and from there it kind of developed into how my pictures look today.
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Talk, I mean, I'm looking at your work, and you know, the one of the first ideas that comes to mind is that you're approaching street photography almost as a portrait artist would.
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I, you know, majority of your pictures are of individuals.
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Um, they're all as you said, they're somewhat isolated from their environment.
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Do you consider yourself a portrait artist?
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No, not at all.
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Why not?
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I don't know.
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I mean, the the thing with the portraits that came up after I've been starting to show pictures, I never feel like I'm doing portraits.
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I'm just literally I'm falling into stuff.
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And if somebody is in a nice light, in a nice position, that nice position that might result as in a portrait-y kind of style.
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I I also like to get close to a large degree, so to get that kind of human connection going if possible.
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So, no, I mean I never thought of it being portrait, it's just kind of like how it happens, I guess.
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You know, you you have made a number of um responses to other interviews talking about your engagement with the people that you are photographing.
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Um, I had to laugh at one, I have no idea how tall you are, but apparently you're tall because the an interview began with that you're the tallest person on the street, so it's tough to blend in.
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Um tell me about your practice as far as being present on the street as a street photographer.
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Uh, I think that's a big thing, actually.
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And uh I can speak for others in that regard.
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I can only say I am I'm just me.
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Like I'm not afraid to to run into anybody, I'm not afraid to talk to anybody, I'm not afraid to get into kind of uh situations, and and I'm one meter 94 centimeters, so yes, I can I can not hide that well, but I'm just there.
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And I think if you I mean for me in street photography, what's difficult is if you're hiding.
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I don't think you should hide.
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There's multiple aspects to this, which come from an ethical side, which come from a photography result kind of side.
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So I'm there.
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Like you see me, you can uh uh recognize me, I don't hide my camera, and I find other ways in the psychological realm to establish my presence, to establish a reason to be there if you look at me from the outside.
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So it's less about coming in and stealing something, it's more about integrating yourself into the environment and then have a reason to exist there.
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And that's how you get into the calm and into the closeness in order to get those pictures.
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At least that's how it works for me.
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You say here, um, I I forget where this comes from, but you say when people approach us as street photographers, we owe them an explanation of our actions.
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Transparency is essential.
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Yes.
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Tell how do you explain what you're doing to somebody that walks up and says, I mean, what are you doing?
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The same way I explain it to you.
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So if we have established that we're trying to be honest with people and we're convinced that what we're doing is nothing wrong, uh, I always remember Bruce Gildon saying, but you know, the movie Everybody Street, where uh a woman kind of hits him and he's saying, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.
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Like I don't get that close, but I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.
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And um if people walk up to me, I I can explain them uh super calm, super straight, looking in the eyes and saying, Yes, I am a street photographer, or I am a documentary photographer, and this is what I do.
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Let me explain that to you and let's talk about it, at least so you will know that my intentions are not uh ill or or or wrong or wicked.
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And uh you might still disagree with me at the end of this conversation, but I have completely declared my mission, and I believe that's my mission.
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And so usually even if we disagree, there's no fighting involved in this discussion.
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Will you often go up before you take a picture and sort of introduce what you're doing?
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Never because I take uh kind of a uh I wouldn't say pride, but it's important to me that all these pictures are candid a hundred percent.
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There's not a single post image in my portfolio.
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You know, in my work, I 90% of it is candid, but every now and then I'll see somebody who's just, you know, their fashion style or whatever, they got a great look.
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And I'll go up to them in advance and I'll say, hey, I'm doing street photography.
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You got a great look.
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Do you mind if I do, you know, I'll use the word portrait.
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Do you mind if I take your picture?
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In your mind, does that pollute then the picture?
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Does that make it less authentic?
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No, it depends what you want to do.
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For me, it's always a question of declaration.
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It's never a question of choice what you want to do, because that's totally up to you.
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Like you want to do street portraits, go for it.
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It makes you happy, go for it.
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Just don't declare it as candid.
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So it's all about how you declare it, what your own ambition is.
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There's nothing wrong in any creative discipline.
00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.799
You do whatever makes you happy, just label it correctly.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.680
Street photography comes with some risks.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:11.119
Um, you once had to contact a security company because you were being followed all the time, thinking they were you were gonna rob something, right?
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:12.079
Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:13.759
But that's that's tell me that story.
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:14.640
Sure, sure, sure.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:16.319
That's that's my hometown of Zurich.
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:23.440
When I when I started out, I of course the first three years I just walked the the streets of my city continuously.
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.279
And as we all are on the street, there's certain routes that you develop.
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.119
So you go again and again and again.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:29.440
Uh-huh.
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:37.680
And it happens so that there's uh uh an expensive uh shopping street in Zurich, uh, think of uh Fifth Avenue of Zurich.
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:56.400
And there's interesting people, and so I went there for a year, day by day, and at some point I realized that I was followed by a security service who's been watching me for a while and wondering what this guy with this camera does every day here, because there's a lot of jewelry shops and you know, like rich people and stuff like that.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:06.960
So I had that conversation and I explained them what I who I am and what I do, and then they told me, yeah, can we also forward that to the undercover police because they're here too?
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:15.279
So it happens that I declared myself to the security and the police in this area in order for them to understand that I'm no imminent danger.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:19.440
Well, these not in that case, but what about being surrounded by a motorcycle gang?
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:20.960
Holy, holy hell, man.
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.039
You really did your research.
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:25.920
Uh I'm very positively surprised.
00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.160
That happened also very, very early on.
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:31.359
There's an area in Zurich where uh Oh, is it Zurich?
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:31.680
Okay.
00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:32.640
It's in Zurich actually.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.960
It happened in other places too, a little bit less drastic, but uh it was here.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:43.599
And there's an area which we would probably consider a little bit more of a lower class kind of red light-ish area.
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:52.079
And me having grown up in this city, and let's say not being from the top of the food chain in the social system, uh, I know a few people in this city.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:54.799
So I go down there and I photograph.
00:19:54.960 --> 00:20:03.519
And at some point I was standing at an intersection, and all of a sudden, out of all the buildings around me, people started coming out and surrounding me.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:12.720
Happens so that this was a motorcycle group which was in a conflict with another very known motorcycle group, and they were super paranoid about being photographed.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:22.480
I have not photographed any of them, and so I stand there with all of them around me, and they were about to teach me that this is not the right place to take pictures.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:28.799
And it so happens that a friend of mine drove by, jumped out of the car, he knew them, and he was like, Hey, what's happening?
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.799
You know, he's cool, and they're like, and everything kind of resolved in the moment.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:39.119
But yeah, it's just a good reminder to always be careful or be aware in what environment you're taking pictures.
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.319
Oh man, how long did it take for your heart rate to go down?
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:52.240
Actually, uh probably a minute or two, because I mean the only way you can deal such situations is by staying calm and saying, guys, I think we have a misunderstanding here.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.119
So you have to stay calm.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.200
Let's take just a quick break.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.079
We hope very much that you're enjoying today's episode.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:05.119
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00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:11.359
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00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:15.200
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00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:26.880
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00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:29.759
And now back to today's conversation.
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:35.200
You start showing your work around, and people start telling you that it you know it's going well.
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:50.240
Do you is there a point where you sort of became public and you started letting people know you are an artist, you are a street photographer, and the exhibitions, the shows, the you know, high scale or the coffee shops start coming into line?
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:59.839
I think to be honest with you, um, the first time I was wholeheartedly calling myself an artist or accepting that I might be living an artist's life was about two years ago.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:01.440
Really?
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:03.279
You've been doing this for more than a decade.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:03.599
Yeah.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:04.960
The book's two years old.
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:06.559
That that's correct.
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:11.759
But uh there's also some validation mechanisms which I wanted to pass.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.880
And once I passed them, I was kind of happy and I was okay.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:22.720
I I think I I did that, so I can call myself that, but I'm not giving myself titles before I won the game.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:24.799
Okay.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:36.559
Um you've got a really cool idea here that I I I think I'm able to wrap my mind around it a little bit, but I I want to I want to get the grad school lecture here.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:43.599
You say that it's important to approach photography with a documentation rather than an observation mindset.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:49.359
Um your quote here is that documentation is love, observation is control.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:23:00.880
I don't really understand the difference between love and control, I do, but between documentation and observation, what what is the difference for you and why are you interpreting them the way you are?
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.119
I think I interpret them this way because I had to explain myself.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:23.759
And if we're speaking of like uh talking to people or having to explain to people who come up to you if you photograph them, that's one of the things I say because it seems to me that we have a little bit of confusion or misconception going on in today's society with the digital world that is uh growing and growing.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:36.000
Yeah, uh, we're getting filmed and recorded thousands of times a day by observation, by fixed cameras that are everywhere, that are watching what we are doing for our good and our bad.
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:49.359
It's not about to judge it, but this is happening, and this is way more heavy and way less reflected and way less targeted than me seeing something, deciding that it's worth to document and then take the picture.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.359
So I'm doing this out of love.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.240
While when people feel like, why are you taking my picture?
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:57.599
I'm saying, Well, you're getting your picture taken a thousand times a day.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:03.039
I'm actually doing it because I appreciate you or something about you or about your circumstances.
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.119
And that's the difference to me.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:12.640
Okay, so observation is without purpose, it's just collecting data which might be used for who knows what purpose in the future.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:13.279
Correct.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:15.519
Documentation is you've got something to say.
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:16.240
Correct.
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:17.359
I love that quote.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.400
Documentation is love, observation is control.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:27.920
Um, it sounds a little bit like it's out of 1984, but it's uh it it it it's it's a fascinating, fascinating idea.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:41.839
So, okay, you you you know, you were in Ukraine, you're working for the football organization, you walk up to your boss one day and you say, I think I would rather not, and you become a photographer, but Ukraine comes back into your life.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:50.319
You go to your website, you've got you know the street photography, one and two, but then you're doing something radically different with Ukraine.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:25:02.960
So for people that that are unfamiliar with that part of your life or haven't seen your website yet, you went back to Ukraine and started doing color work, but well, you you you explain it.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:03.599
What what do you do?
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.759
What are the Ukraine images that you're chasing?
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:13.039
Well, I mean, I got into photography because I like to document, and street photography for me is a way of documenting as well.
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.200
Ukraine is part of my history.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:22.720
So I lived in uh Kiev for over two years for the European Soccer Championship 2012.
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:34.000
And as it was a corporate thing, and there's a lot of stuff we could discuss about sports organization being morally right or wrong, but let's skip that because that's gonna be a longer discussion.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:40.559
I was there and I was trying to do treat people right, which also comes to like paying them right.
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:49.359
Uh, we were middle Europeans getting five-digit salaries, and we have people working for us who had three-digit salaries who were key positions.
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.400
So I try to take care of them, I try to have a good team.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:57.680
I got roots in this country, I got friends in this country, I like this country.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:04.799
So, doing street photography and wanting to document, I went back to document Ukraine, and I did that way before the war.
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:10.160
So I I left that uh that country 2013 and I regularly went back.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:24.720
And it so happens that I believe when you do this kind of documentary, uh, color makes sense because in street photography I have a way bigger freedom to interpret things in an aesthetic that I like.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:38.240
While in documentary, um I'm kind of obliged to stick to the truth of what I saw, and if I can't interpret the pictures the same way, the color will just add and help you to understand what you're looking at.
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:47.680
So, yeah, I mean that's that's one of the things I do, and I still go back and I regularly go back, and uh it's it's the work where I believe the color has its purpose.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:53.279
When you are in the Dunbass region of the two sites you've got here, that that this is all before the war?
00:26:53.519 --> 00:27:17.440
Yeah, I was there a few times before the war, and then it so happened that in uh January 22 I went there uh gaining access to a group of volunteer fighters who have been there for eight years at that point in time, and my mission was to document the relationship between the people living on one side of the separatist line and the other line of the separatist line.
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:23.440
And it just happens as I'm there that this whole war started uh unrolling.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:39.039
I left uh off Divka, which is at the direct uh contact line with Donetsk about a week before the Russians came in, and uh uh probably would have stayed if not everybody I knew called me multiple times a day and said, get the hell out of them.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:45.680
Um, I mean in hindsight it would have been okay, but you never know in this moment.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.759
So, yes, I've been there shortly uh before the Russians came.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:55.839
Had a very, for my personal memory, remarkable last night in uh in Kiev.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:03.039
It's a very special feeling to be in a city that is in this kind of uh waiting mode or kind of holding its breath.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.039
So very, very memorable moments, but uh also up to this point.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:07.920
I still go back.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:16.079
I photograph in Tschernobyl, I photograph this group of people, and I also like to document uh daily life in in Ukraine.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:23.119
The the work that you've got here, I mean, the the first um portfolio you've got is pretty much focused on the military and the volunteers.
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:29.440
The second is all focused on civilians, people who are apparently leaving or whatever.
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.599
If you are these self-directed subjects, you know, this is what you're interested in.
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:35.359
Are these editorial assignments?
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:40.000
No, I mean the reality of this market is there's very few editorial assignments for this.
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:45.119
If I could have chosen, or when I wasn't more naive, I would have loved to do something like James Nochtway.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:57.359
It's funny how you if you watch the documentary uh War Photographer, which was done by a friend of mine here in Zurich Christian Frey, where he says, I just went to New York, I had three, four meetings, and then I was off on my first mission.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.000
I mean, this business doesn't exist anymore today.
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:06.720
So if you, I believe, if you communicate about these kind of things, uh, you do it because you want to.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:12.079
And since reality is what it is, I do this because I want to talk about it.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:19.119
Walk me through a couple of the images uh in this gallery, and then we'll get back to the street photography as well.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:27.440
But there's one image of a young girl sitting on a apparently in a shelter of some sort, um, sitting on a mattress, leaning up, talking to a man.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:29.680
I'm gonna assume it's her father or a relative.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.359
Do you know what picture I'm talking about?
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:32.160
Yes.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:32.720
Okay.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:40.079
Tell me the scene, not only what was going on, but include you then as the photographer taking that picture.
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.519
Well, that is uh in March uh 22.
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:46.960
Uh the war is going for a little bit more than a month.
00:29:47.119 --> 00:30:10.240
We have been uh collecting stuff in Switzerland, bringing it back to Ukraine, uh going back to Kiev where after the war started, and uh also passing through Lviv, which was the western city close to Poland, and most people at this point in time have been escaping the east uh very uncoordinated, very quickly, very uh without a lot of stuff.
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:14.799
Most people just been carrying one bag uh with them and just had to leave.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:20.000
And this picture is in the top floor of the train station in Lviv.
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:30.000
There's a trauma station where people that arrived that either don't have any contacts, lost their parents, lost their relatives, or in a traumatic state.
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:34.640
Uh, you know, there's people who don't talk at all anymore, there's people who are just screaming.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:47.839
It's that room, and that kid is sitting there in a trauma room, and uh, I don't know who he is talking to her, but he's obviously trying to give her comfort and uh and uh calm her down.
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:49.440
So that is the situation.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:57.839
Me as a photographer, uh, I spent uh several days there, and uh you walk around, you figure out how the place works, you gain some access.
00:30:57.920 --> 00:30:59.759
It's not a place that you can just walk in.
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:06.640
So I found somebody who was like, Yeah, you you need to take some pictures up there, and uh that's how this came together.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:14.319
And on the technical side, because again, you you obviously you're using a fast lens, you've you've got the blurred out background to isolate these two in the foreground.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:15.359
Is it a long lens?
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:15.920
Are you close?
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:16.799
Are you far away?
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:18.240
I'm usually close.
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:20.400
Uh I like uh open aperture.
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:21.279
You're right about that.
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.640
It's just something I I uh I uh embrace.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.680
Uh that was probably short with a 50.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:30.640
I'm usually going between 35 and 80.
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:35.920
80 is the most uh tele I use, uh somewhere between 35 and 50.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:40.400
I think if you're further away than 80, you are too far away.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:44.400
For for well, I mean different aspects.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:50.319
A for really understanding what's going on or being really there and getting the maximum out of it.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:51.759
Uh there will be documentary.
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:56.720
Well, documentary I often also go 16 millimeters because you're in very small spaces.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:01.519
And in street, I believe if you use more than 80, it just becomes unethical.
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.400
You need to give the person a chance to say no.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:05.920
Do you well, okay.
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:08.799
Do you tell people after the fact, hey, this is what I did?
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:09.680
No, yes or no?
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:11.359
No, no, I don't.
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:13.119
Okay, so okay.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:19.519
Uh you know, street photography, unlike all the others, you know, we have all these ethical gray gray areas.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:24.640
Tell me about the picture just below that, the old woman on being covered by blankets.
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:27.440
Uh, you you mean still in the Ukraine uh section?
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:27.839
Yes.
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:29.839
Yes, that's that's late night.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:55.519
Uh there was an evacuation of an elderly home that got hit by a rocket, and that there was just a full train of elderly people, partially in their pyjamas and with maybe one bag, that got uh quote unquote unloaded from this train, and then people have been taken care of before they've been put into buses, and that's the moment where she comes out of the train, she's being put uh on a stretcher, and people are checking if she's okay.
00:32:56.319 --> 00:33:02.000
Do you ever worry that some people might look at street images in general as being invasive?
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:03.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:18.319
I mean, I totally understand how you come can come to a conclusion like this, but then on the other hand, if you kind of uh inform yourself about this, you'll find out that there's a decade-old tradition that there's books of images that we cherish and appreciate.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.799
They all tell something about ourselves.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:29.759
I I guess it's a question of understanding what we're doing, but I also understand if some people feel like this is creepy or weird.
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:33.440
Yeah, I I faced that a few times.
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:40.559
You know, you you've made a point where you actually weigh the public good versus privacy.
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:42.400
Is that an ongoing conversation?
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:45.759
Have you have you come up with a way to explain that to yourself?
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.319
Yeah, I mean, plus minus.
00:33:48.480 --> 00:34:11.039
I mean, uh, I'm not holding the big wisdom, but uh I think I mean to use an example, like you go into a bookstore and you find a book about the place where you live that is 60 years old, and it's important, it gives you an insight into who we've been at that point in time, how we've been living, how we how we looked and everything, and it helps us understand ourselves.
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:19.599
And I believe street photography, if done, how I believe, in my humble opinion, there's no totalitarian uh statement here.
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:29.599
I believe that's the job of street photography, you know, to transport an in an emotion, transport an impression of time, of place, of people.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:48.719
Going back to your street photography now, one of your most famous pictures um is the young girl who's um look sort of looking back over her shoulder between two, I'm gonna assume they're men, who's we can't see their heads, but she's got a tremendously frightened look on her face or concerned image.
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:50.320
Do you know which one I'm talking about there?
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:51.039
Yes, yes.
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:51.599
Okay.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.599
Um tell me what's going on there.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:57.760
And again, tell me the story and tell me the story of the photograph.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:02.480
It's as usual, way less dramatic than we might think.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.719
Uh don't tell me that.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:06.079
It is, it is.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:14.639
I mean, we try to create little stories, and sometimes they come out of very ordinary situations, but I think the important thing is the emotion that it transports.
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:21.199
So it's it's less the drama of how it happened and more like what do we capture in this very millisecond.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:28.480
And to a little bit uh destroy the myth uh around this picture, this is a very everyday situation.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:36.079
We're looking at an opened door in a in a in a tram, public transportation, rush hour, people pushing in.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:39.440
I'm standing in front of the door, not fitting in there anymore.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:45.119
And you can just clearly see in the face of this young girl that she thinks there's no more people fitting in this place.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:45.920
That's it.
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.400
I mean, it's not more glorious than that.
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:53.679
Well, it is a magnificent picture, though.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:04.400
And you know, it it brings up the question when we view images, how much of the image is our projection into it versus what the photographer may be offering to us?
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:12.559
Uh and I looked at that and imagined, you know, a much more dire situation than G, you know, the tram's full.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:14.719
But does that matter, frankly?
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:16.800
If if I'm misreading your intent?
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:18.960
No, it doesn't matter at all.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:27.440
I I I don't claim any interpretation, uh um, how you call it, uh authority over my own pictures.
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:32.639
My job is to catch something that sends, that radiates.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:34.480
Now you are the receiver.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:38.559
The way you receive it and interpret it is none of my business.
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:45.119
It's my business is to send you something and it does whatever it does in your head, that's out of my control.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.079
But if I don't send, I failed.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:56.079
But if I were to say for me, this is a picture about the plight of penguins in the South Island of New Zealand, uh you know, clearly that's wrong.
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:57.679
You know, yeah, but it's interesting.
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.119
I would sit down and say, How do you come to that conclusion, my friend?
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:07.679
So would you say that your photographs that you are not putting out a proposition, or you are?
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:12.880
No, I'm putting out uh in in my head, I call them little film stills.
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:21.840
And if it if it triggers uh any kind of 30-second sequence in your movie imagination, we're good.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:28.000
You have said when you go out, you are not unprepared, but you're also open.
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:29.280
Tell me about research.
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:30.079
Tell me about preparation.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.079
Is that just your personal history in a place?
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:39.679
Or if you know that tomorrow you're going to Louisiana, um, are you gonna spend six hours researching where you're going?
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.400
Yeah, I mean, not that much in detail.
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:51.519
What I'll probably do is I'll I'll look up Louisiana, I'll look at the structure of the city, I'll look at uh three, four main points to kind of land.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.000
And then yeah, I'm totally unprepared.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:57.679
I have a camera, I have feet, I just start walking from these places.
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:05.840
I might consider inputs from somebody else, but one of the pleasures is also to discover these places in exactly that way.
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:19.119
I mean, I know Istanbul by heart, I know New York by heart, and I know that because I've been walking in these cities for hundreds of kilometers and and weeks on end, and that's part of the process, knowing the place.
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:26.320
When you are coming to know a place, are you coming to know it camera in hand, or is the camera the last thing that gets put in the equation?
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:33.119
Uh the camera is always there, but the way I walk is I don't carry the camera in any like prominent way.
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:39.280
So seen from the outside, you would not spot the big difference unless you recognize the billing handbag.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.079
Um, you would not spot the big difference in me just wandering around or taking pictures.
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.400
I gotta ask simply because it's just so funny.
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:49.119
Tell me the story of the panda bear in the New York subway.
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.280
The panda bear in the New York subway, man.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:56.079
I mean, Halloween parade in New York is one of the most boring things to.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:58.320
I mean, generally, that's my humble opinion.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:03.760
I'm sorry if I offend anybody, but shooting parades is one of the most boring things you can do.
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:09.360
I mean, you're coming from one point of view, everything is walking past you in the same angle.
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:11.679
It's it's a staged thing, etc., etc.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:22.400
But uh as soon as this stuff is over, or before this stuff, I mean, these people to integrate them into everyday life situations, that's for me where the magic happens.
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:24.800
And this is how the panda came together.
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:31.840
That is probably 10 o'clock at night in New York on the subway station, and the panda is on his way home.
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:36.800
It it it it I like, you know, I I know that I know stations like that.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:40.159
I don't know which one that is, but I absolutely adore that shot.
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:53.519
Has there been a time where you've taken a picture, you've got home, and you said yes, that this is the defining image of my career, or one of the defining images that this one satisfies you really, really more than the others?
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:56.320
Well, the moment I come back from shooting, no.
00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:57.599
I never know.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:59.840
Uh, consciously don't want to know.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.079
I might have a good feeling about a day.
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:06.480
I feel like one or two shots were nice, but I don't know.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:15.599
I I will not know until I'm home and then another month of time, until I gained a good emotional distance to the pictures.
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:21.760
And, you know, that's how I solve my editing issues, is I don't I'm not looking for the good ones.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:28.239
I wait long enough that I'm impatient enough uh uh just to get rid of all the bad ones, and that is 99%.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:35.360
So it makes it easy for me to press backspace uh continuously once I have a little emotional distance.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:39.039
But I never come home and and and search for a good picture.
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:44.960
So you don't come home, sit down, and you know, put them all in a light room and stay up till four in the morning playing with the best ones?
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:45.760
Never.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:48.559
Never because it kills the flow.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:57.679
And if people talk about flow in creativity or photography, for me, flow can be, you know, a week, two weeks, three weeks in a row.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.320
And uh I don't want to break that flow.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:06.719
And and what whenever you either chimp or look at your images, if you want it or not, it does something to you.
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:14.719
It either makes you happy and therefore comfortable, which I don't want to, or it makes you unhappy and insecure, which I don't want to either.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:16.800
I just want to go ahead in my flow.
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:22.639
Is it possible to create a uh post-production flow?
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:31.519
Kind of, but then you sit, you know, you sit down for three days straight with Lightroom, and you you're not out shooting, but you are in the the flow for dehazing.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.519
Yeah, no uh dehazing, uh haven't done that.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:37.519
I haven't done that ever, I think.
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:55.519
But uh but uh uh it's there's days and weeks where I feel like uh I'm sitting down and I'm going through it, and I might dedicate a few days in a row to that, trying to figure out which five pictures out of uh three months of shooting out of 20,000 pictures are good enough for my for myself.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.760
We end up with kind of a pool of images.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:02.480
I'll I'll pass it to other people as well to validate to get their opinion.
00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:06.559
Um, but there's no like post-production workflow.
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:08.719
I'm I'm I'm super lazy in that regard.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.960
If I need more than five minutes for post-production, I didn't shoot it right.
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:13.840
Uh really?
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:15.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:27.440
Um, see, I I no, I I agree with you, but I also know you know from my own practice, I'll sit there and I'll you know, I'll grab like you know, the white or the black slider or the highlights or something, and I'll just wonder.
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:29.039
I said, I wonder what it looks like if I do this.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:30.559
I wonder if it look what it looks like.
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:35.920
And I will sometimes completely rediscover an image inside the image I took.
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:38.320
That never that's not part of your workflow?
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:39.599
Uh a little bit less.
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:45.119
Uh what I did the first two years when I started shooting, I did that super duper intensely.
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:51.119
Like I spent really months on end trying to figure out how to do a proper black and white post-processing.
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:56.639
Once I figured it out for myself, once I had my own little system, I kind of trained that.
00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:00.400
Now it goes rather quickly, and it's uh it's not that much work.
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:01.760
Tell me about the picture.
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:04.880
And again, this is on your website, so everyone go look at it.
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:08.320
Um, the guy handed out newspapers that says who's independence.
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:08.800
Yes.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:18.639
That that has to just I I either God smiled on you and said, Here's a magnificent picture, or this is more work than you then it lets on.
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:21.119
Man, that's that's one of those rough pictures.
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:22.719
I remember how that came together.
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:25.119
It was one of the worst days I ever had while shooting.
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:25.760
Really?
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:28.800
And even during the day, I didn't realize I took that picture.
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:30.000
Well, sometimes it's rough.
00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:39.119
I mean, you're out there, you're trying, you're trying, you're trying, you fail uh 10,000 times before something happens and you don't even know fully yet.
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:45.440
And I remember that afternoon I was out with Clay, Clay Banskin, New York street photographer, good friend of mine.
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:50.000
And uh we were shooting around uh 34th and 8, right next to Macy's.
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:51.039
And he's there often.
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:59.599
It's also that you run into people again and again, and you try again and again to get their picture, and it somehow just worked, but it wasn't like that glorious moment.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:03.679
It just happened in between 50 attempts.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:05.599
And I was just lucky.
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:07.440
But that's how it works.
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:10.559
And was this one pretty much framed up the way we see it?
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:11.760
Or is there a lot of cropping here?
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:16.719
No, I I I crop very, very little and I try to avoid it at all.
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:18.960
Um, there's not that much cropping involved.
00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:23.679
Well, man, you you nailed this one just not only with the composition but the tones.
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:26.880
Um this is one of those masterpieces.
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:34.639
So, how do how would you describe in general a photograph that you uh of your own that you think is good?
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:35.599
What does it do?
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:37.920
I wouldn't even think of a specific one.
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:42.960
I would say it it it ideally, if I can choose, it's aesthetically pleasing.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:51.039
Uh it looks good from a compositional point of view, the lines are correct, the light is correct, that kind of stuff.
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:59.039
And then beyond that, it contains a story, an emotion that hits you when you look at it.
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:01.039
And I think that's about it.
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:10.639
And both of those aspects can come in so many different variations that that's already like a huge portfolio of opportunities when it comes to getting pictures.
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:13.119
You you described it earlier, and this is a cool term.
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:13.760
What would you say?
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:15.519
Film stills, something like that.
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:16.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:25.360
I mean, when I when we did the book, uh, I was always thinking uh uh as a title like stills from a movie I never made, and then I figured out somebody else already did that.
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:30.480
So we had to find another title, but yes, I mean, but it's also maybe how I read life.
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:44.559
I mean, if you if you find something that is emotionally heavy or interesting in regards to content, it is kind of a starting point for a story, and it for me, then it could always be grabbed out of the the movie of the life of this person.
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:49.679
So so you would describe yourself as a narrative photographer.
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:54.960
I'm not sure what you mean with that, but if it's about telling stories, storytelling.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:56.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:45:56.320 --> 00:45:57.920
I mean, uh, what else are we doing?
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:04.079
I mean, uh uh, I don't see the pleasure in continuously just repeating geometry.
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:10.719
Of course, geometry is important, and I scartier Bresson who said a picture needs to be visually pleasing at first.
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:14.719
But then beyond that, I think this is where street photography gets difficult.
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:24.400
I mean, beyond being aesthetically pleasing, there's three, four more layers of stories and heaviness and content that actually makes it difficult.
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:37.119
We find geometry and light rather easy, but then to stack it up with emotion, with story, with personal, with closeness, with all these things, that's where to me the difficulty comes in.
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:46.400
Just for giggles, have you ever tried, you know, some of the more heavy-handed things, you know, like focus stacking, exposure stacking, that kind of stuff, or tried something like still life?
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:51.599
In other words, things that are very counter to the spontaneous spontaneity of street photography.
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:52.960
No, not really.
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:56.800
But uh, but uh, but uh but I mean I have other interests.
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:04.559
I I do, I'm really fascinated by doing movies, I do video for uh for uh commercial reasons to pay my rent as well.
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:13.119
So I'm very open to many uh art disciplines, but uh in photography, I think I I have not chosen this term, but it's the best one I can find.
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:14.800
I'm really to a degree a purist.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:20.079
Like I want to I don't want a thing that works, I want it to be not in my way in regards to the camera.
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.320
And then I need I need stories, and and stories are rather simple.
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:32.800
I mean, if things are there, you can feel you can feel it's right, and you can equally feel it's not there when you edit pictures.
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:40.079
Then it also comes down to being honest with yourself, like how how uh how without uh mercy do I edit myself?
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:43.119
You know, do I really follow these kind of things or do I not?
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:46.880
But um, it's it's a multi-layer thing, and that's what makes it difficult.
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.199
Tell me about putting the book together.
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:54.800
Um I mean, guys, it it now, first of all, um, is is it available at the moment?
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:58.960
Uh at this point in time, I think we're nearly sold out.
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:02.719
Um talking to my publisher about uh second edition.
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:04.639
Oh god, I hope you do.
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:10.800
Um in plain sight, cat it's called in plain sight, can dead urban encounters.
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:12.719
The the images, okay, we got that.
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:14.000
Tell me about curation.
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:19.119
Tell me about how getting a life's work of work into book size.
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:22.239
I think it's uh it has a lot to do with intention as well.
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:31.280
Uh, I mean, you need to know what you shoot for, and I've always known that I'm not shooting to put pictures on Instagram and then for them to be forgotten.
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:35.119
I was hoping I find a platform that gives them more longevity.
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:39.440
And I think in photography there would be exhibitions, books, and stuff like that.
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:43.920
So it needs a format beyond the digital.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:49.119
And I have worked in this uh train of thought for for all the time I've been taking pictures.
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:59.920
So one of the things I had is I always have a folder in Lightroom that contains 100 pictures, and I had this over the last 10 years, and every time I add one, one drops out.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:08.000
And this over the last 10 years built this pool of pictures that then became the base for the book.
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:18.880
So my publisher, Kerer, is uh is a very professional and and serious uh publisher, so we have a book designer and she did an amazing job, I think.
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:20.079
Uh Laura.
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:25.199
So I took this pool of 120 pictures and I gave it to her.
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:27.840
And I said, Look, do just do.
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.519
Like you are good at what you do.
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:31.360
I want to see what you can do with that.
00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:34.639
I gave her those pictures and she started designing the book.
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:47.119
But the base was that I had this pool of pictures that I was more or less sure that those were the best pictures I had at that point, which is also a problem because I'm sure I have another hundred pictures that work on the same level.
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:48.719
I just haven't found them.
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:52.400
I for first of all, I'm absolutely digging that idea.
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.199
I'm gonna steal that from you, make a folder this afternoon.
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:58.880
Um, but the hundred how are you deciding what best means?
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:01.519
Because that sort of defeats putting in a theme, right?
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:04.639
So this isn't my hundred best pictures of manhole covers.
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.920
This is just my hundred best pictures of whatever.
00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:11.199
I think best is determined by what we discussed before.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:12.239
Is there a story?
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:15.679
Is it visual pleasing, and does it have an emotional impact?
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:19.280
And and on top of that, probably is it what I would like it to be?
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:21.760
So and I I struggle with that.
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:26.400
So I I I get up to like I don't know, let's just use an example.
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:32.880
I get up to 200 pictures and then I start working with people in order to filter out what really uh works.
00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:39.840
So I I learned early that I need professional people to oversteer my personal bias.
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:48.079
Those are always heartbreaking friends when they say, Let's get rid of this one, and you think, No, that's one of my favorites.
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.239
And they look at you, they're all your favorites.
00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:50.800
This one goes.
00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:52.719
Yeah, but it's it's an uncomfortable truth.
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:54.719
But I mean, what do you want to protect yourself from?
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:59.679
The moment you hang them on a wall, you are not involved in people's judgment anymore.
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.679
So you better make that experience before it happens without your involvement.
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.960
You are not interested in Instagram fame?
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:09.840
Oh, I mean, define interested.
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.159
I I'd love to have some Instagram fame because it's good for the existence.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:15.519
Let's be honest about that.
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:20.000
On the other hand, the grind to get Instagram fame.
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.679
I mean, I have a life, man.
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:31.920
I can't spend eight hours a day pleasing an algorithm that wants to sell ads in order for me to like be seen by people who don't care so much about what I do.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:42.000
So the whole echo chamber, I'm I'm working it because I like to and I have to, and there's good connections, but I'm not gonna dedicate hours every day to get Instagram fame.
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:47.199
And plus anything that ever happened in my photography, it never came through Instagram.
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:49.920
Oh, those are very wise words.
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:50.480
Okay.
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:54.719
Um, you know, just to close out here for a second, you know, you teach workshops, people come to you.
00:51:55.039 --> 00:52:04.639
What do you find to be sort of the most common um challenge for the people that come to your workshops um for them to become whatever the next level is for them in street photography?
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:05.760
That's two points.
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:09.199
The first is uh which we always realize quite quickly.
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:16.800
I mean, if you want to photograph efficient, you need to be able to handle your camera like a jazz musician handles his instrument.
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:18.800
You need to know your tool.
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:25.840
That's something that people realize quite quickly and then kind of get into it because you need to be able to work quick and seamlessly.
00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:32.639
And the second challenge is always it's not photography, it's not it's personal development.
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:39.280
Because learning street photography actually pushes you back to your own personal efforts.
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:46.639
You have to actually do those steps, you have to see, you have to get there, and you have to operate the camera.
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:56.239
Now I can guide you, assist you, and help you, but if you are not developing from that skill personality point of view, it's going to be difficult.
00:52:56.320 --> 00:53:01.199
So it's A, the instrument, and B personal development.
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:01.920
Okay.
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:05.440
Well, I I think your students are all lucky to have you.
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:20.320
And this is really, I look at this work and I'm you know seeing all sorts of shortcomings in my own, because I am mesmerized by the way you are approaching black and white photography, street photography, as well as the color work as well.
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:25.119
So, Jens, I have enjoyed this conversation immensely, and and I am a fan.
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:26.000
Thank you very much.
00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:27.119
Thank you very much.
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:29.119
And uh it was a pleasure to be here.
00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:30.159
Frames.
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:33.920
Because excellent photography belongs on paper.
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:37.920
Visit us at www.readframes.com.
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:40.480
That's readframes.com.