FOUNDERS UNPLUGGED E8 - Alistair Baillie - Ship Shape

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Hello and welcome to founders unplugged. I am your host Greg McCallum
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Also known as the pay as you scale commercial advisor before we start just wanted to let you know all these conversations are
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Completely voluntary by the founders who are involved. So please give them some love
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There's very busy individuals and they're taking up to two hours out of their day to come and sit and chat with me about themselves
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About their businesses and about all other kinds of stuff look in the description on whatever platform you're watching this and you will find links
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To them for their LinkedIn profiles and also the projects and the startups they're working on so do go and check those out
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And while you're at it, maybe give me a bit of love too
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I do this as something on the side to my main business
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I run a company called think work and so if you're looking for any advice, I also do free commercial advice
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For those for up to one hour that job allows me to do this. Thank you so much. Enjoy the episode
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Please do show love and appreciation for them. And of course for this episode if you enjoy it, like it subscribe share
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We're out forever ado. I've talked long enough. Enjoy the episode. Thank you. Bye. Bye
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founders unplugged hosted by Greg McCallum
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You
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Yes, it was me how's that I can hear you now yes, okay good how's it going
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Very well. Yeah
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Well, you could say that like you know, I'm sick here's the insides talking to you. I'm looking out the window
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You
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Know what do you know what annoys me the most about?
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Technological advancements is how we still haven't managed to master the outdoor screen
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Yeah, or just glare reduction because yes quite happily talking to you. Just like just just um, but yeah, it would look really weird
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Just like I would love to have an office set up like a temporary office set up for outside in the garden
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But it's just yeah, I can't get anything done. I can't see a bloody thing. No, I'm
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I'm someone needs to solve that problem. I think yeah
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Well, someone has told it this week
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We're referring to like June's recording and it's been all been about the Apple buddy glasses, isn't it?
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So basically just hiding us from reality and having a camera that puts on for reality
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Can you imagine when that turns into driving?
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Like you the litigation problems of you're going to be driving your car
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But not actually physically a bit be able to see other than through your device
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I mean, it's a nightmare. Yeah, but at that point the cars will be driving themselves. So it'd be alright. Okay
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Well, yeah, so I'm assuming I'm assuming which order the litigation risks went in
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Which is a bold assumption that may not be true. Yeah, we may just we may just skip that part and decide we're quite happy to
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Suit sue the sue the automater. Yeah
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Yeah
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If you can just put these glasses on and not go anywhere why would you be end up in the US
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Have you seen ready player one? I have yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll just end up with like a commuting simulator
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Yes, exactly to reminisce about about the back in the days when we used to commute to work and stuff. Yeah
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Sydney morning Harold, I'm a dual national Aussie. So
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Just um, he's kind of just spot on it's like I absolutely hate these things. They should be thrown involved volcano and I want one
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You see I'm I'm in the different camp I absolutely love them and I want them I
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Love it. I love that. I love tech, you know, that's just my thing. Yes. I can see the negatives
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Yes, I can you know, I absolutely can but I see far more positives than I see negative
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Yeah, for the same reason like people criticize the printing press when it came out
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Like there's a reason to criticize and be scared of everything but ultimately it's it's advancement and I love it
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It is in it also is unavoidably consider you can't put just unless you kill all humans
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You can't actually stop any of the tech advancement happening
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So what do you do there are certain very limited things you can do like so nuclear proliferation is
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Possible because the refinement of uranium into weapons-grade uranium is quite hard to hide
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There are quite large buildings that are required to do so but apart from things like that
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It's it's it's
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It's it's it's you know, imagining what is possible and then dealing with the conflict knowing that it will eventually become a reality and then dealing with the
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Ethical moral and legislative frameworks around it. Yeah
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But yeah, I mean obviously AI has been a big is a big part of our world and it's a big thing that's come up and I keep
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Keep coming back to things. We hit the ground running with this part. So
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We haven't even done introductions yet anything
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Yeah, we should do some formal things yeah, yeah, is this is this recorded from posterity by the way, so should we start it with a high?
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I'm great. It's already started. It's already started. Let's go. Let's go
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Let's go. Yeah
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This will all be uploaded. I'll keep I'll keep this all in nothing gets edited out. So this is okay. Cool, right?
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I'll keep this all in nothing gets edited out. So this is okay. Cool
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I'll let it in and start swearing then. Oh, no, you can swear if you want. I don't mind. But but yeah, but not
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I'm so annoyed if I do
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Not imputously though, but yeah, okay. Well, yeah, let's let's do an official beginning
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Not that I have much of an official start to these to be completely frank
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It's it's fairly casual as you can tell like this is the way it goes
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Usually but I like to start them at least with an introduction from yourself and what you do and a bit about your company
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I think that's probably a good good professional
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sort of way of structuring this
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To some degree and then and then we can go back to what we were talking about if you like
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So yeah, take it away
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So introduce yourself and and business. Okay, so I'll start with the business
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So I'm because I'm the CIO of ship shape to be C and we are a venture capital
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We are the venture capital search engine. So you come to us to find
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Investors that will get your business
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So if you're on here, you can just click try test search just to save the bother if you want
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And it will find investors that are talking about have invested in there are some investors that are talking about
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In there are some evidence to say that they're interested in green hydrogen, for example
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So and you have to sign in by the way, so yes at some point that will come back and keep annoying
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But the purpose of the business is
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Danny and I founded the business because it should be easy to find the right person at the right company
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Who's going to be into your startup? There are so many lists out there
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in the world and databases of just investors
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But never the twain do meet and you end up with founders having to do spray and pray exercises
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Just putting up some random lists also
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Which doesn't get you very far also any cozy concentrating on a local geography
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So you sit there going like well, there's too there's too many people on this list
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I've got to spam this stuff out deal with so many different calls. But why don't I just
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I'll only go to the people near me. Whereas if you actually get the right person that's talking
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That gets exactly your business
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Geography becomes less relevant. So a real use case for this was we had someone who was very much into
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Improvements on construction sites and that was what their startup business was about and there's a guy in California who blogs
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He's a VC investor. He doesn't work construction
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He's a VC investor and he blogs about nothing but robotics and construction sites and how this is going to change the world
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That's his thing. That's his investment thesis his passion
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So put those two together and you search and you need to search the power of search to do that and
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The kind of thing that amazed us when we started this business is you know, the first iterations of ship shake really just took
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You know this venture capital worlds up to sort of the end of the noughties
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I mean we were still like, you know, the venture capital workers we arrived in it. We got here like in the 90s
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Our first iterations took up the noughties. We're now taking it
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Modern day times we are making use of LLM technology groups, etc
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But literally our first iteration like two years ago just wouldn't have looked out of place in someone's desktop
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Over a decade ago, but that was still
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Consider me in advance of everything else that was out there for particularly founders to be able to use
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there are obviously some subscription services which are different and for
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People who've got money to spend but we wanted to create something that everybody can access and using and
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Put these two sides of the equation together. So that's what we do
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Okay, and tell me about a bit about you. What's your background? How do you get into this?
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so
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particularly met Daniel my business partner the CEO of
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Ship shape at a place where we were trying to do a series a and live this problem going how hard can it be to find people?
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Who are into tax operation and tax operations automation quite hard actually as it finds out find the right firm find the right person
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but that was my
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For I guess for startup have been involved with
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From 2014 onwards got into the startup world was on the management team to particular
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And involved in sort of two particular companies that exited
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And then met Daniel and we decided to kind of start this ourselves prior to that. I've been
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I would call myself a middleman middle middle management apparatchik in a variety of you know, sort of
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large companies with and
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Spending too much money on programs that I managed
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So and you can see what you know, which which side of the world I like I love working and I love working small small company environment love working in
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Our spaces where we can really get work done do things and make a difference quite quickly
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Not that there isn't an incredible amount of value of things we get done with by these huge companies
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You know, like if you are a massive financial services organization that they really are the grease that allows everything else to happen in entire countries in the world
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So I'm not dumb. No, they are they are very important and the function is important
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But just where I prefer to work is, you know, the startup environment
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So yeah, that's um to me some of my passion is entrepreneurship. My second passion is tango dancing
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So they started tango dancing in 2008 and just it's a
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My strong advice is don't start. It's complete addiction. It's like
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Kids don't do driving. They start dancing tango. I used to I used to do salsa dancing. Okay. Well, yeah
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You understand the problem then? Yeah. Yeah, because my mom was a
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salsa dance
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Instructor or like a helping instructor friend and she's massively in that scene. She's just now
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She's in her late 60s and she's out later than I am on weekends like going to these bloody things, you know
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Yeah, I totally get that it's highly addictive like, you know, you know, because there's some crossover there with tango and salsa isn't there?
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There's a lot of yeah dancers, you know, they sort of they get they know each other right in the circles and you know
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What is standing on salsa tend to be sort like Montague and Capulet?
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I find in terms of their relationship each other, but but nonetheless they say we know each other
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Yeah, but you're kind of the same. No, we're really different
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So, but I think one of the things that comes up so talking about so, you know, if people are really into dancing
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So, you know if people take nothing else from this and they're watching us
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So never mind the nonsense I'll waffle I'll talk about entrepreneurship like definitely get it
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You know what? I'm sorry that you spoke about all of that and the only thing that I picked up on is
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The point is like you come back to dance has a bad reputation
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So one it's this thing that people we judge each other as a human society
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Can you dance is that everybody can everybody where everybody who couldn't know everybody can not like even if you're
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Have some severe physical limitations, there's some form of dancing how well do we dance and then we've got this image of like a
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dance, it's either taught by
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You know a
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Someone sort of
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Mentally torturing sort of, you know, particularly young girls in a ballet school. Yeah, this is a horrible thing
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Yeah, you think of like ballet and
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Black Swan and stuff like that. Yeah, and also the physical demands
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You'll get in stuff which goes on more like a Britain's Got Talent the physical demands of what's like something young street dancers is so high basically
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You're either
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You're out of it by the time 25 or you're a couple
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But tango dancing salsa dancing is a wonderful dance of the social bar and you can do them into your 70s
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And tango is actually a little bit physically less
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Impact there's less physical impacts than salsa
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I think they're both physically demanding but salsa particularly
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You know, you can actually end up having to bounce off the floor a little bit more than you do in tango
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So tango you can actually take into your 80s as well and you stay fit as a fiddle
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So yeah, if you're watching this never mind on an answer some ownership go dancing learn salsa learn tango
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It does cause marriage
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It's very
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Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
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Well, this is the thing isn't it? That's interesting about those communities
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It's like it's very normal obviously to just approach each other and ask to dance and of course, you know
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It's also quite traditional. So you're generally gonna have men and women dancing together not always but generally and so yeah
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You have to be quite willing because I remember taking an ex-girlfriend many many years ago to salsa and she got very funny with it
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I was like, no, this is just where it is. Don't worry. There's nothing going on here. Like it's yeah
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At least for the most part, but yes. Yeah, but no, you're right
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It's a great thing to do to it's very very social and great exercise
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But but let's not get too stuck up on that because you covered a lot of amazing stuff there and you know
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Shipshaped VC is a really really interesting platform. I remember when I I hadn't heard of it before and when someone described it to me
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They were trying to find the words to describe it
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It's kind of like the plenty of fish or tinder for for founders to find
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And I was like, oh, okay
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But I think it's so much more than that really what you guys have built like you said just
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Based on the content that people are putting out
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online
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It you know being matching people based on that sort of criteria is is very powerful
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How did the idea come about you mentioned? Obviously that this came from from having lived it
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But how did this particular idea come about? Was there is sort of a particular catalyst for it?
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Yeah, I
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Mean the original catalyst was need so that's why you know, so so why do most things?
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So we needed you know, we were in a business that needed some money, right?
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And that you so need drives, but like look why this particular method and how this particular thing came is
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and I think sort of you know a journey into
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AI that actually works as well is you sit there as a human going? Well, how do I do this? What do I do?
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I'm looking for evidence. I want to find a person to talk to that's the first thing like so
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Investment entities and it's like VC firms have been, you know, the best known type
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But they're not the only type of an investment entity don't invest in anything a person who works as an investment entity
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It's going to decide to write a check or not. And usually unless they're a sole angel
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They will they will talk to other people either organized in the formal committee or just informally
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They will say so either a person is going to write a check or a person is going to talk to some other people
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I go I recommend we write a check to these people
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How do you find that person because that's what you need you need that conversation?
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And if you get the right person the click is really fast
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You can go through this months and months and months of exercise and then it's just like it's that conversation right there job done. Yeah
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so
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Yeah, I mean it's basically sales 101
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Isn't it in the sense that a lot of what I do working with with founders we talk a lot about and and some of the time
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As well, the reason why they want to up skill in sales
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Is because of their doing investor outreach, right?
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And they're getting to that stage and there is their startup where they need to to spend some time on that and it's it's it's very
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demanding and time
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Right. And the figures that the the advice always comes down to the same thing build rapport, right?
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That is what sales 101 really is all about. It's it's about conversations. It's about being expert communicator
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And you need to find the individuals to do that with and that's the thing that's most time-consuming in sales ordinarily an outbound
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Yeah, about is identifying the decision makers and then you know opening a channel of communication
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Finding areas that you can you can synchronize on and start, you know having a conversation around and the best
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Relationships in sales and investing in business in general are not built around the conversation specifically on what it is
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You hope to achieve together through business that they're usually talking absolute nonsense like we're doing, you know
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It's like, you know, it's it's just connecting on a human level. And so I find it really fascinating that in some ways
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You are enabling that you're allowing individuals to connect based on yes relevant content
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But it's content that is that is enabling individuals to connect, you know outside of just I want your money, you know, yeah
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And I think it's also why we didn't do
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Just a pure like matching trying to admit we're trying to do certain we realize that there are
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Go for go for go for that. That's why I think we're but we're not
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I guess I guess yeah a bit like a tinder if you like, you know swipe to that
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So we're not not actually doing the date for you
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So there is a bunch of things and what we obviously we can't there's it does a different type of business
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Which is a classic corporate finance business a lot of which is trying to be on the automates in different in a different sense
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Which is we will actually match you and we so we are going to put the two of you together
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It's slightly different. It's a very it's like what's the difference?
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The slight difference is we were showing you evidence of to to to to to simplify your world
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Here's a bunch of people that you might match with and we're not making your world a lot lot lot simple
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We're cutting up a massive amount of noise
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But you still because the human because the conversation is still still human you have to have that human conversation
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So just automatically matching you that person will invest in you put the two together and the two of you get the room ago
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This is never gonna work. And so what we're trying to do is like go like here's here's like 50 here's like 50
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Here's like 50 or a hundred thousand people talk to this 20 only of those literally a hundred thousand people get down to 20
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Yeah, like that's the sort of a games we want to main for people if you talk to these 20
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You know, you're probably a good thing
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And there's people who love it. So founders will love that like a
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Tramdick is coming so many frogs I recognize gonna have to have a few conversations, but just cut me through and
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People are some people who by the way don't like it
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So if you are paid and we found some people in corporate finance go the problem is unpaid to pay to put a list together
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A hundred people with 500 nose in it. You've just given me the nine people I need to speak to I can't get paid
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Around
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Yes, so founders like it's cut it's cut through noise and find out what's there it does you see it's there's a little bit cheating you
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Can do from our system as well, which everybody doesn't say I'm talking about sales thing
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But like I saw you're interested in blah blah blah. Can we have the conversation? You can sort of do it that way?
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But generally we're giving that's not if you receive sales messages like that. Do you wait, you know, do you like them?
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Not really
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If you actually genuinely go, okay, so here's someone I'm just talking to I'm looking through the ship shape system
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Okay, they've got them. But ah, I've actually got something authentic to say
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Hmm based on these little snippets. I'm getting you write that authentic things. You're not copy and pasting the text
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You're reading you fit we've filtered all a load of noise out for you. You've got something
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Okay, I've got an authentic thing to say there's the amount smash done with a pitch take on the back
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But maybe ever eats and but you know like or setting up more more first page but you know, so uh that that gets you move
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That gets you through
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Sorry, sorry. No carry on there is a bit of a difference to sales or so sales in many ways
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But you're selling to a large enterprise
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They don't necessarily leave one of the things that's the frustrated. Why somebody hadn't done ship shape before and why we're gonna do it
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There's this quite a good trail of evidence
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That we can do and I speak we're speaking to a family officer said well your system won't work because we don't tweet or give
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Any evidence about you know for you to trail if you to follow about you know, what we will invest in
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But we stick because you can see what you've invested in
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And those people there's a lot of it
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So what comes out in the ship shake system is we're also looking at just what's the investor is
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Writing about tweeting about putting about them. So it's also what they've invested in. It's like well, I don't know
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Yeah, I don't know. I can't see your particular evidence, but let's let's take tango dancing
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I say you have invested in these six companies all six of those founders are talking about tango dancing
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I think we can see your common thread
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Right and that will make it a human conversation will then work really well
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Again, so because you're sitting there going like you better talk about the family office
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All these people to take it. Do you know I'm a tango dancer as well. I'll create a chat, you know, so there's
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You know, it starts off that that door for you. Have you seen the movie hitch?
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Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we're hitch
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Yeah, can't get you married but like, you know
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We get you through that that first bit. Yeah, you get yeah
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I see what you're saying the the the tips for the opening lines the how to carry yourself that kind of thing
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But I was gonna say a minute ago that some what was interesting about what you said there to do with
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You know how you don't generally respond to sales messages that are a bit too
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I guess the only word I can think of is slightly cringe in the way that they approach
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Personalization, you know, like hey I saw that you're a human and that you breathe air like we have some things in yeah
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Yeah, it is. That's not what what sales gurus
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Really mean I guess when they talk about personalization if they they know what they're actually talking about what you touched on
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That is you know, it's it's actually and the key to it
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I guess is the different the key differentiator is isn't just hey
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I see that you are a human being and that you live and that you eat and so on and so do I
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It's more I see that you're a human being and that you eat and live and do all those things
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And it's interesting because that ties very much into what we're doing currently, you know
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And and we should likely have a conversation about it. So it needs to be not just
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You know acknowledging something that they've recently talked about but that is actually relevant to having a conversation
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And and you know, ideally then moving forward otherwise if those things are too distant like, you know, for example, you know
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I saw that you recently attended so-and-so event. I hope you had a great time
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But by the way, we do this like that. Yeah, that's completely unrelated and and just makes me think what the hell
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So yeah, there has to be some sort of relation right to that, you know
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If it was I saw that you recently attended that event. We actually sponsored that event and
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You know, we should talk about x-y and z that there needs to be some sort of common thread there, right? Ideally
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Yeah, and I think there's lots of so, you know when you look at the beginning of ship shape
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There's so many things we could do I guess there's there's a few different reasons why we focus so hard on
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The particular thing they do one of which is I think for every startup of isn't a good idea
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So know what it is the problem that you're solving
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And I think my strong advice, I mean just not just live through this but just my working life before I went to this there are different
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People who think we should do a skin-deep solution for everything
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It's like I solve a problem one of the reasons is because then there's a lot of things that we can do
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Is because then there's other people out there we can collaborate with because the problem of taking specific, you know evidence as I'm calling it
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You know sort of about what someone might be interested in and automatically tailoring that into a meaningful authentic introductory message
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Is something that there's a whole load of ai businesses out there trying to solve with varying degrees of successes
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And you know as a society we are going to have to deal with in the very near future
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Getting very authentic intro messages from people that have didn't like them have no idea and they've been smashed out the door
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With an avatar that looks absolutely perfect, but isn't there it's all that is really really close fortunately in june 2023
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As we're talking it isn't quite there yet
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But it's not far off it. I mean literally a couple of months away. It could be that soon. That's how
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Fast these things are advancing. Yeah, it's it's it's it's piling through
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There are yeah, there are some things that I think the pace is over emphasized. We'll see what this is june 2023 and let's like
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Maybe you can go through some of the things where um, I think the pace has been over egged and see how this video ages in a year's time
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Yeah, but the um
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But I think the point is that we we the problem we're trying to solve is already very hard
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There is a lot of traditional data engineering front-end engineering
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Um, and and then uh, we were already before the introduction of llms or the mass adoption this year of llms
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We're already making use of various nlp models in our business
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Which we've trained ourselves and we're now using those in cooperation with new things that are coming out
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It's already a very quite large difficult problem to solve but from the front from a user perspective
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Is that you're just doing that? It's like yeah, but we're doing it well
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And you know even for us we're going through oh, I really wish we could do that better
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We've got a whole lot of things just to make this better and better for people to get better and better information
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um, and then from it as well like what we the moment we're only
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Giving people that point use case of like find the investor
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But we're also finding out a lot about the investment landscape from this as well in a much better way
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And that's things we can sort of you know, take as we move forward
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Uh, but again, it's you get that information you get the gift of that data from your users if you solve a problem
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Well for them and we're trying to solve one problem really really really well
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Um, which is find the investor. Yeah
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And you know everything else goes from there
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Um, so what is some of the other stuff that you guys would like to do?
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as I said, there's um, we do uh
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I mean a lot of it's just um, uh small and they said there's a lot of the uses of um,
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Um, i'm just trying to think how to say not too much
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So there's there's there's there's building public and then there's there's literally telling people and your secret source about what you're building over
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Quite the same thing, um, but there are there's a lot of um
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There are a lot of use cases that can be
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Solved um with the introduction of
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Of gpt4 falcon bold llama and vincoona in particular. So falcons the step they the outlier of that group i've just mentioned because it's the open source
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And lmm rocking up the charts we just to be first haven't tested it at all
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So it's just what we do to keep track of you know, there's there's charts in the best performing lms, etc
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That's the one that's you know being promoted very strongly as purely open source and working well
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And that again will be an interesting part for that because a lot of these other things got started up as um subscription models
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And so how how does how does that world fair when everybody just has an open source lm?
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Just sitting on them an ac2 instance just in the background. Don't need to pay you
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um, but there are
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There's we're not planning on doing anything that we couldn't already do. It's just the speed that we can execute it is
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Has been accelerated has been accelerated massively
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um
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and I think as well
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I was talking about this with our chief data scientist yesterday. It's not that any any individual small tasks that we do
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um
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is not
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Really quotes on quotes that difficult like a skilled engineer can do any of these things in a few days
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But it's the integration and one doing all of them
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But also how you integrate them put all those things together
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Um is still a challenge and still what?
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A company a good tech company as hopefully we are can deliver
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Um as opposed to a hacker in a bedroom with just access to chat gbt and you know, um firing things out
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a little bit of um
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So there's a little bit of a fudged answer because there was no
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But yeah, but I think the interesting part is um
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I think the interesting part of the introductions of new technologies, you know during during the course of this year is that
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the pace of
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Pure development tasks and the ability to take things up to sort of like approach that level has just vastly reduced
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Oh 100 percent
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But what I actually did my own post on this like a little while ago what frustrated me and people saying oh
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We'll be able to put out entire fintechs in like three days
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No, you won't because you still have to
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Integrate everything there will come a point where the next the next generation of it
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This is not a couple of months away. This is but it might not be years
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Well, I don't know. It's definitely not a couple months away is you're taking all these particular things. I want to do a thing
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Basically at the moment you can already go to you know, one of these um models and go I want to do a thing
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It goes here's some code to do a thing great. It does a thing
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But then you ask all these different things do differently. How do you how do you integrate them together?
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What's the common code language you've got? How do you actually do end-to-end testing through that?
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Well, how do you actually choose change if something just gets created for you and it gets put into your system?
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You've got no idea what it is. And then microsoft comes up with security updates
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Like well, how do my how do I even do that? Well, I just go and ask it to to redo the code again, but
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accounting for the new security update whack it in stop working with the old stuff you end up these classic problems of systems integration
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That didn't go away. Yeah, and if you look at the like a development time how
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A development timeline doesn't work in a traditional way
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That's you know, we were taught to when I started to peel water for which was never actually the truth about helping works
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But we were you could only get funding if you pretended it was you know
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You start off the requirements and then you do some developments then you do some unit testing do some system testing integration testing performance testing indigo life
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But what is true?
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I think is the percentage of time spent and the actual percentage of time spent actually developing the actual solution
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From its original inception up until actually getting out the door was only actually ever about 20% of the total time spent
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That bit is collapsed and collapsed massively
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But the other 80% of the time is still actually
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Does a first approximation the same there will be another thing that comes in like after it's going like come and also
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auto-create your every module in the world and then we'll just look at that code within your own enterprise environment and we'll just
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Actually rewrite it to make sure it fits with your code style, etc. Etc. And just click and you can just slot that straight in
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And there's another one that comes up and says great and here's the entire
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Entire qa output qa output for you so you can ensure it works
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At that point in time you seriously are getting to sort of like some very very rapid things
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We're not quite there yet. So that there is there's still there's still a role for fortunately and you know
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Massive employment of engineers what we are talking about is um a quicker way to prototype things
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Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think that the what will end up happening is two things because that you're you're you're right
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That is inevitable, right?
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But what will happen is, you know the the shift in focus for those that are engineers will just become more in ai
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so the expertise will have to just shift but the other thing as well is
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just because everyone can create a
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SAS product or a FinTech product products, you know in a day at home doesn't mean that
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They're all going to be successful. And so there's a whole other
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Conversation to be had around well, you know, that's going to if anything accelerate the need for experts
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In launching businesses bringing them to market and getting eyes on them and getting users
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Which is is a problem that ai at least in my mind. I can't see solving anytime soon
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It might accelerate the marketing side of things and help with the with the sales side of things and so on
409
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,440
But ultimately all you're doing is just adding more more competition
410
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,600
It doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's suddenly going to be successful, you know
411
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,520
Yeah, I think there's an even layer before that though, which is who is accountable for this
412
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,040
So until you can sue open ai for losing your money
413
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,080
The open you cannot just have a FinTech that says put i've invented this and they transfer your money into me
414
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,240
Oops, your money disappeared. Sorry. It wasn't my fault. It was also generated by the ai I go and see that
415
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,600
No, you put this product out. You're the person that gets literally
416
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,200
And so this is why a lot of these things I think there's a lot of stuff
417
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,000
I mean auto generation of code is not something that ran just got invented this year. It's just
418
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,680
That it it's another layer that got faster and better. But like this is this is what took faster
419
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,680
um, but the
420
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,360
this tools that make things quicker are moving towards
421
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,160
So that a human has an idea
422
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,240
Um, because of course none of these ai's have ideas. They're just yet
423
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,520
There's no creativity in
424
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,000
Um
425
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,000
Well, what they do have is a much better library of all the ideas we've had like I I don't know the problem is like
426
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:54,400
Well, here's some ideas that other people have but again, we had this thing called search engines before that for the last time
427
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,960
This isn't like this didn't exist. It's it's it's an evolution of where we were but there was a
428
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,840
lovely
429
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,960
Um blog article I read talking about like this isn't you it was talking about the introduction of c in 1975
430
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,160
70 ish like mid 1970s
431
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:11,840
um
432
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,560
I'm sorry about so everything before that was you know, sort of like a um
433
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,400
Um assembly language and suddenly you have this language that must be needs to be compiled
434
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,360
And engineers at the time were like, well a real engineer doesn't do that because you've abstracted away, you know from
435
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:24,640
um
436
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,120
the actual raw assembly like assembly code
437
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,920
Um into this thing called c what's that? Anyway, that's a cheat that is um
438
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,400
And uh, but of course it was it was because there's a there's a compiled language
439
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,920
That means that a human does something and has to do less work in order to produce the result
440
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,800
And this was people were already complaining about this in the 1970s and every single thing
441
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,280
We we concentrated on mausoleum in terms of infrastructure
442
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,920
but also there has been a continuous series of development when human can have idea and
443
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,240
Technology has evolved to make sure the idea actually comes to fruition more quickly and you can test it out in the real world environment
444
00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,760
It does or doesn't work
445
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,880
Um, so that it isn't new in that sense
446
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:09,440
Um, does it do you see this ultimately leading to a democratization in?
447
00:33:10,060 --> 00:33:13,600
software to the point where you know, essentially anyone
448
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,480
um, because anyone could could create any software without needing the
449
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:25,780
The the sort of complex skill set that's currently required now that effectively what we'll see is almost a personalized
450
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,120
Suite of software for anyone that needs it that that essentially the apps on your phone
451
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,520
Or maybe even just an app on your phone is going to accomplish anything
452
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,000
You we currently need the variety of apps to do because it's just going to be catered to you
453
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,600
You don't really need anything and it's just going to be ultimately democratized. You see that as
454
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,640
You know potentially being where this leads
455
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:54,320
Yes, and personally yes, and no, I said this is what I talked about. So maybe it's again talking about this is june 2023
456
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,720
Talking about the particular wave we're going through at the moment and where it can take us
457
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,200
Um, yes, and no, so what what already existed?
458
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,920
I mean you can you've got high school you thought well over a decade when high school kids can just like
459
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,640
Punch out an app and stick it up in the app store
460
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,040
And that's got easier
461
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,600
But you still the integration is the problem as soon as you have
462
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:21,760
One two three four of these things integration the system complexity that comes with system integration is where the real problem lies
463
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,120
And that's where you need properly trained engineers to actually pull things together
464
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,040
And it's where a proper engineer will spend a lot of their time, you know, so okay
465
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,040
We want to do this thing. There's the code to do this thing finish that how the hell I go
466
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,640
But that's live over there. I've got how does this idea?
467
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,680
How does it fit with the things we've already got what else is going to get broken when I put this in?
468
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,080
Talking to the community of peers coming through so
469
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,000
um
470
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,640
You so to be able to put just about you'll get a democracy
471
00:34:47,340 --> 00:34:53,360
democratization of a point app like here's just the thing and it might get some marketing trend and particularly if you've got this got some
472
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,400
advertising revenue attached to it, it might be a thing that just comes up and um,
473
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,600
Uh, it it everybody's clicking on it for a day or two
474
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,880
But an integral that's something that has genuine integration with four things across the stack of your life
475
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,160
still required engineering, I think where it does become is the
476
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,340
Um is it almost the opposite from democratization?
477
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,280
um there
478
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,040
If you think about like um the finance world and clerical world and the counseling world
479
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:25,840
Like um when my father started his career, there was the entry level way into finance, which is where you were the calculator
480
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,400
right, um
481
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,160
Because they had you know, my father's not that old there was such a thing as a calculator
482
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,720
But it wasn't electronic at the time. Um, but even when electronic calculators came up, you're still doing a number of things
483
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:38,720
You still had to like write out
484
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:40,080
um
485
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:45,440
Write, you know write write things out with a pencil and then do the calculator got something
486
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,880
And you put the sums together and you showed how they fall this flow together. My father did the first budget for his company
487
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,800
And this was yeah, this was 70s and it was a long piece of linen
488
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,640
That got stretched out in the wall, um that had been printed on
489
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,360
um
490
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,800
So you these things but there's a way to enter into this field that meant you could do productive work
491
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,560
The grant work needs to be done and this got you into how you became a
492
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,880
A business manager of finance or accountancy. This was the entry level part into it
493
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,320
Even if you think so my analogy for this is even if you think about accountancy and particular actuarial work
494
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:29,120
They pay people leaving university to do the particularly actuarial qualifications knowing that they're not getting productive
495
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:34,960
But this is just training them up to do it because there isn't any client facing work that they can actually be trusted to do
496
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,100
Until they have done all this qualification and and certification
497
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:42,100
developers and engineers like
498
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:47,060
Um, they were they were you can come on and do some you start off with some very very simple
499
00:36:47,620 --> 00:36:51,940
Work either using some python code or some very simple things on the front end and you learn your full stack
500
00:36:51,940 --> 00:36:56,980
Or you start from you typically you start from you start you start from start going one way or the other and you expand your skills
501
00:36:57,860 --> 00:36:59,140
Um data science, you know
502
00:36:59,140 --> 00:37:02,340
You you start off leaving your university course and you can do a little bit of python
503
00:37:02,340 --> 00:37:05,220
You learn how to use a csv file, but you've never touched the database
504
00:37:05,220 --> 00:37:09,700
Which is still true for some people leaving data science courses now very good at the science
505
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:13,620
But literally data lives in databases. No idea
506
00:37:14,180 --> 00:37:15,140
so
507
00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:19,780
Comes up so there are entry level roles that you can do and get paid for we'll end up going so
508
00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:27,780
The complete democratization of the easy stuff, but you need advanced people to do the integrated stuff
509
00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:30,020
But there is no career path
510
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:31,060
into
511
00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:35,300
Being an advanced person will end up having to create in the same way the other thing is it is
512
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:39,540
I've brought you on board as a big company. Um in the same way as that, you know, IBM
513
00:37:39,540 --> 00:37:41,940
This is this is a typical path for idm. Anyway, you come on board
514
00:37:41,940 --> 00:37:44,340
You learn everything idm and then you go on my graph and go somewhere else
515
00:37:44,820 --> 00:37:45,780
um
516
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:51,700
But I think that that trend of me and exchange we we will there's a there'll be a continuous need for people who know what they're talking
517
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,220
About but where is the entry level job because it's been automated away
518
00:37:56,340 --> 00:37:58,340
Right. Yeah
519
00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:02,580
No, no, it makes no it makes sense. I mean you're essentially um
520
00:38:02,580 --> 00:38:06,740
Yeah, you're widening the gap that's required. Um between
521
00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:12,820
Sort of school and and work essentially that you're saying you need to actually spend more time
522
00:38:13,460 --> 00:38:17,300
Uh in in understanding and learning this line of work before you can get into it
523
00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:17,620
So yeah
524
00:38:17,620 --> 00:38:19,940
It's very likely that you might end up with a you know
525
00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:24,980
The same sort of level of educational commitment to to becoming a doctor or a surgeon
526
00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:31,540
And then you know to enter the field of of of um of data science or
527
00:38:31,540 --> 00:38:38,260
Or yeah, or development. Um, no, I understand that yeah, but but but but if we were to extrapolate like from
528
00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:40,580
this premise that
529
00:38:40,580 --> 00:38:46,660
Ai would automate these these jobs. I mean eventually it would be able to also automate these other sort of more complex
530
00:38:47,220 --> 00:38:52,820
Areas of engineering that you mentioned of these problem solving clubs. I mean, that's just inevitable that we're going to get to that point
531
00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:55,060
So at that point, you know
532
00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:57,060
Engineers aren't needed at all, right?
533
00:38:57,060 --> 00:39:03,300
you know that that there is just no need and I can't help but wonder what that looks like because of if all software
534
00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:05,460
is
535
00:39:05,460 --> 00:39:08,740
Is crit can be created by anyone and is probably is
536
00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:15,160
Ultimately what you're doing is is you're amalgamating all software like it, you know, it doesn't it becomes identity-less
537
00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:24,020
Right and ai doesn't care what company owns what ip is or not unless obviously we ask it to but but ultimately it's just going to
538
00:39:24,020 --> 00:39:28,260
It I I have a feeling anyway at least and I haven't really sat down and fully
539
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:32,980
Like I like to sit down and sort of do these thought experiments and I haven't completely made up my mind on
540
00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:38,100
Where I land on exactly how this landscape looks, but I have a feeling it's going to be more of the operate
541
00:39:38,660 --> 00:39:43,140
The operating system level like in the same way that we're seeing kind of google now
542
00:39:43,380 --> 00:39:48,900
You know create their suites and make it more, you know, it's yet to be released but these tools that are
543
00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:51,940
ideas taken from independent ai
544
00:39:51,940 --> 00:39:54,600
AI startups and integrating them into their suite
545
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:02,440
You know, I can't see I think that what we're going to be getting is is, you know, the i apple ios windows
546
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:10,200
You know os it's it's where all these tools are going to be and and ultimately what we look at now when we look at the tech
547
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,680
Landscape we look at the santa landscape
548
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,240
those tools will just be in the i
549
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,800
in the in the os and
550
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:23,020
That essentially will probably kill them and and I think the only thing that's going to save that is legislation
551
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:30,680
Um, but even then I don't know how much that can can do, you know, I I agree but also slightly disagree with that
552
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,040
so
553
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,360
um, so again what's already happened so if I take
554
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,320
Okay, it's the problem for me is again
555
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:43,320
People go why i'm obeying on about this point because I have this conversation friends is who do you assume who who can be accountable at the moment?
556
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:44,840
um
557
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:50,360
We can say well a person has to be accountable on a computer. That is actually not true already and hasn't been true for 200
558
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,420
Years we invented this thing called a limited liability corporation
559
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,600
And you can sue a limited liability corporation. You're not suing anybody in it in it
560
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:04,040
You're certainly not suing the owners of it hence the word limited liability share shareholding of a company
561
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,600
But there we we give these things called entities as companies rights
562
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,200
And in many times this this thing that doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of people that walk into a building or not nowadays
563
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,680
They're just on a call like this, but we create this thing called an entity. It has rights
564
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,400
um, and it can be sued
565
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,120
so the thing that comes up for me is
566
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,320
At the moment, but there's still only two you're either suing a person or you're suing a
567
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,520
Corporate entity of some kind or a government body. Sorry, there's obviously a third of the state
568
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,520
and various
569
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:35,960
guises of it
570
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,680
Until you can actually sue the ai and that's what it comes up. So who is accountable?
571
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:46,120
Who am I litigating for this until you can actually say it's the area you can't take it all the way down to this lower
572
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,760
Level because a human will still have to look at it
573
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,960
This I don't think is a new problem. If you look at things like credit decisioning
574
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:58,200
I worked in a place where we were looking at um, uh credit approvals and it was for um, a business
575
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,040
that was a project I had to do as part of a demerger and and uh
576
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,480
The the credit risk decisioning was being taken into a different company. Yeah, very boring
577
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:13,960
But what was quite exciting was it comes conceptually is looking at this is what the decision has to be made a person
578
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,680
Is accountable for making a recommendation on what whether to approve or decline the loan
579
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,800
Now actually what they do is they go to the credit decisioning system and it says yes or no
580
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:30,520
And even this was even in the late noughties and already by this stage did the person actually
581
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,320
Have any authority at this point in time limited what they could do with disagree
582
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,920
If they wanted to with the credit decisioning assistant take it up to their boss and go this system said no
583
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,520
And more normally that the pressure was they wanted to get the loans out and they wanted to sell
584
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,120
So they very rarely did someone say the system said yes, I disagree that someone push it
585
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,600
They want to get blown out the door because it's really that's how they get judged on and there's a break
586
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,400
Which is the credit risks going in you can't sell with low
587
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:57,560
so
588
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:58,760
Um, there was a way out of it
589
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,520
But by and large that the system is already saying yes now the system's having to do quite a lot of things there
590
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:08,040
It's looking at the particular um some particular ratios to do with the entity that they're lending to but also looking at them
591
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,040
ratios that are actually
592
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,680
Hitting in the company at the moment so to do with the barlacords and so the number of the level of tier one capital
593
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:21,000
Actually have the company at the moment and whether you could lend or not against certain things and there was always problems with the system because you'd have a
594
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,800
some of the models for the barl
595
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:25,960
That
596
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:27,240
that uh
597
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,000
allowed for whether the
598
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:36,200
The promises made on the barlacord the financial institution would keep about its um leveraging weren't quite integrated with the thing that was making a decision and there were
599
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,320
Issues, but nonetheless the machine was making
600
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,280
Really in all senses was making the decision
601
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,160
But actually a person had to do it
602
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,080
So you already you had to build all the way from that base application logic
603
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:54,120
All the way up to something that ends up in a gui in front of someone where they're clicking a button
604
00:43:54,120 --> 00:44:02,120
That says yes or no having been presented with a lot of information and you've had to surface all that stuff through complex integration layers
605
00:44:02,420 --> 00:44:04,420
manipulation layers and give it to a human
606
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:09,880
Until what would make a difference if you go we're just not a human isn't involved
607
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,680
There is simply an ai that is going to make the credit decision
608
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:21,560
And we as the owners of the financial institution who remember can be sued because we are the limited liability owners of an entity
609
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,400
And we're not going to have any staff at all in credit decisioning
610
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:29,560
We are going to be happy that the computer and the computer alone is going to make the credit decision
611
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:35,560
You can then you can keep extrapolating this out. I go we as humans will actually allow the fact that um
612
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:41,000
We will these these entities these ai entities become accountable parties
613
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,800
Well, then you have to have it's not just a legislation framework against ai's doing something
614
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,240
It's a legislation framework for ai's doing something
615
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:53,240
You have to create the framework that they basically they have rights
616
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:58,380
They basically become people in the same way that corporations become people. They have to have an identifiable
617
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:01,160
Center
618
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,160
legislative
619
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:05,240
Litigation center once that happens
620
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,680
Then you can drop all this stuff down as you say to the lowest possible level
621
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,320
We'll get rid of all the nonsense that's required basically because these silly things called humans need to interact with it
622
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,320
We'll let the machine just do what the machine's good at
623
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:23,560
um, yeah, so I think the the the litigation from the legislative framework required for that litigation which is which is about
624
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:30,440
Allowing the ai to do something and be accountable for something not stopping it from doing something is required before you can strip away humans
625
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:34,280
That's interesting. But I mean at the same time though
626
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,160
Wouldn't you be if if we got to that point with ai being being that advanced which like we said
627
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,320
It could may not even be that far away
628
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,640
then is it not also possible that ai would be at the point where
629
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,400
Uh, it would be self regulatory in in that way
630
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:56,360
That it would it would also probably be responsible for its own legislation and and litigation and you know
631
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,160
Because of what because once you get to that point if it's advanced enough to be able to accomplish that sort of thing
632
00:46:01,460 --> 00:46:05,640
Presumably it will be implemented in more places than just where we're talking about there like in you know
633
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,440
Credit checking department like it will likely be in
634
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,920
In corporations all around the world in all different facets of society and government and so on
635
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:18,360
So in fact, you'll probably end up with a situation where it's uh, if something did go wrong
636
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,720
That an ai would be the one to determine whether or not it did
637
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:27,560
Um, and whether or not it needed to so actually you'd be probably be getting the ai to speak to itself or
638
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,680
It would but again the same problem comes just but larger like so, you know, um
639
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:37,320
Uh, like a good nerd, you know watched a lot of sci-fi and read a lot of sci-fi at the time
640
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:44,200
So going back to some classic movies. I've actually seen um apple seed 2004 japanese animation movie one of my favorite favorites
641
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,360
There's so many with so many riffing on this thing
642
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,000
But it's a it's a really good thing that so what they have is a model
643
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,600
Where they had an ai that basically ran their
644
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,280
It was actually their portion of the world just because I don't think that ray it ran the world
645
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,600
but it it interfaced with um
646
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,360
A council of humans there were like 12 humans and this was the model that they had set up
647
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,800
So the ai was a was the most powerful intellect of all
648
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:14,520
It wasn't you weren't living in the matrix where humans were disappeared or again showing my age here, you know formative years youth
649
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,040
there was I think the culture novels by enm banks and
650
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,720
They were it was very much where humans still existed in the world
651
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,360
Because resources basically by this stage three the ai is running the world who had far
652
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,680
Their intelligence up here in humans is down here. Just let billions of them run around because why not?
653
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,640
And they were kind of fun to play with occasionally but they were not in a malicious way
654
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,000
It was like literally the humans could not do any harm at all to ai
655
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:47,160
Not talking about any like vastly futuristic world like that, but they were talking about something where the human there was an ai that was a
656
00:47:47,860 --> 00:47:53,880
Uh representative of the thinking of humans up to that point in time and there was a council of 12 people that were voted in
657
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:59,560
To represent the world of it as it stood at the moment and they interacted with each other and the plot of the movie is that the
658
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,080
There's a disagreement between the two and then drama ensues. Um
659
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,000
Even to get to sort of status like that. You still have to have given
660
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,920
Alleged a framework where the ai can do it. You might end up with movies again going to some
661
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,880
It wasn't even very good movie, but it was made by steven steelberg
662
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,160
So I got big thing of rob williams was in it where he was a robot that
663
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,480
His rights for 200 years
664
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:27,000
You do need that and you do need the points you need to come to the point where an ai is clearly making the decision
665
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,960
And ai clearly is in every possible way
666
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,040
At least in some facets
667
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:39,480
It doesn't have to look fully sentenced in every way as a human does but in some facets is has every right to do something
668
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,600
And be and be a suable entity in its own rights. It can create its own legislation
669
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,360
It can look at these these rights and then we but we would have to vote to give it right
670
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,720
Um until somebody is stupid enough to give it to give sky and at the keys to the actual nuclear king
671
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:58,680
The nuclear kingdom it can't actually sue us to do so. So I think it's it's a human and ethics problem
672
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:05,480
Of how we create the space for ai to be able to do what it's going to be able to do anyway
673
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,840
It's interesting that you you raise the point of you know, limited liability part
674
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:11,800
Uh, sorry
675
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:17,080
Yeah limited liability partnerships and these these other legal entities that you know essentially have rights in the same ways that a human do
676
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:18,760
And that's what that's what makes them suitable
677
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,320
And I never really thought about that before in terms of ai and how you know what that that means for ai
678
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,600
But it's just made me think of the question. Do you think that it would be ever possible?
679
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,680
For or when we might see an ai
680
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:38,840
Listed as a director of a company like that's that feels like an inevitability at some point, right?
681
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:40,600
that uh
682
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:45,720
For me again extension of the same thing like there's no doubt in a relatively short period of time
683
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,440
An ai would be able to do
684
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:55,240
As good a job as any director of a company in any recognizable way certainly in every formalized environment
685
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:57,240
You know take a look at these accounts
686
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:00,040
Are you going to approve them?
687
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:05,480
Yeah, here is a particular we need a policy decision on this particular issue left or right and they could be really quite complicated
688
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,840
Ethical things as well and behavior of stuff like that, but it's like nonetheless. I'm an ai with the some
689
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:18,040
The sum collection of all the decisions that have been made by humanity in this particular area before floating around and uh, and my nebulous
690
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,040
uh mural net and
691
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,720
Here's your answer. Yeah, um, but you still have to accept the fact
692
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,000
There is no framework for that to happen at the moment and I think it's um
693
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,600
And whilst that can't be that it's a human problem to solve
694
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,120
I actually think it's it's this is not something that gets solved in a month
695
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,960
And I do think that so whilst here we can we can all sort of work
696
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:43,400
And you know a lot of people are who are more laughing at rishi sunak, you know, sort of talking about again june 23
697
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:44,760
we're going to be a
698
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:45,560
uh
699
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:51,000
Sort of ai powerhouse i'm going to take take it to the uk is going to take a role in um, how to set up
700
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:56,120
Uh to be part of the legislative framework for how i exist. I do actually think it's it is actually
701
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,080
Take the bull by that horns
702
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,520
Like that bull by the horns, um and um
703
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:09,720
Be a place I mean and that's that could genuinely be an industry in a powerhouse in the same way as london and singapore exist
704
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,600
So that ones and zeros that represent this thing called money, which you know doesn't actually have a real physical
705
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:19,640
Um a manifestation ever particularly in currencies and cryptocurrencies and beyond there's entire
706
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:27,100
Mass population centers whose economic economies are supported because other people agree to give them food and construction materials and heating electricity
707
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,560
Purely so they can deal with
708
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:31,960
how how to
709
00:51:32,020 --> 00:51:39,400
Legislate for and use this thing called money imagine being that the imagine being the legislative center that can work out all these ethical questions
710
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,560
And it ends up being in scarborough
711
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,440
You know and there's like in a sudden scarborough is the capital powerhouse of the world
712
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:51,240
There's people emigrating. Well, I need to get the scarborough or scar baydos as I believe they call it
713
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:52,520
Yeah
714
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:59,800
Yeah, um silicon scarborough. Yeah. Yeah, so that it is um, so I I do I think it's um, definitely possible
715
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,840
But there's and I think the technology will be there long
716
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:08,360
My general point is the technology will be there long long before the legislative legislative framework. Oh, yeah
717
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,600
Yeah, but I mean that's still the case now. I mean, we're still legislating parts of the internet
718
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:15,820
In in in ways that is just mind-bogglingly
719
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,040
Like delayed to in my view to to a lot of the advancements
720
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:25,560
I mean look at look at social media and how you know that like tik tok for example has been under fire recently
721
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:31,720
Um, you know in ways that is just and and copyright issues online and things like that. These things feel far
722
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,760
Uh far too late to be dealing with now, but I do think but there's there's a fundamental difference
723
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,840
There's there's legislation trying to catch up with things that have already happened
724
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,400
Whereas the difference you're saying about an ai being a director
725
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:50,760
It's not that's actually a happy to legislating for something. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's not reactive. That's proactive legislation
726
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:52,440
Yeah, yeah
727
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,480
Which should obviously be the most exciting and tedious are we going to be proactive?
728
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,120
Yeah, you can't do that because you know
729
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:03,000
This director 474 is overwritten by this and there's a clash and it ends up in the high court and
730
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:08,280
And how the hell did we end up here arguing about whether a mouse has a watch to cheese, you know, like
731
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:16,120
Etc, etc. Yeah, but no, it's interesting. I I recently watched the um, the diary of a ceo
732
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:22,600
Podcast that steve bartlett does he had a guest on whose name completely escapes me now
733
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,400
But he had a guest on who was uh ex google
734
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:32,680
Uh, uh, uh had like one of their head engineers in there leading their ai team for you know,
735
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,880
However many years like you know, I think a decade or so plus
736
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,440
I don't know if you saw it, but it was a really interesting thing
737
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:43,480
I can't remember his name either. I think another guy you're talking about. Yeah, and um, and he was um,
738
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:49,000
I don't know. It was quite kind of an interesting conversation. I would definitely suggest watching it
739
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,200
But I found myself disagreeing with a lot of what he said which I mean like
740
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:59,640
Which you know, I I don't claim to to be a data scientist. I I don't have a technological background
741
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,200
I've got a very very sort of base understanding of
742
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:10,040
Of what it is you do for example other than my experience from it as a founder and working with tech teams through startups and knowing developers
743
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:16,600
And you know working with them very closely, but I disagreed with him on so many levels mostly around the kind of ethical
744
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:18,680
um
745
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,360
Sort of dilemmas he brought up and also his predictions of the future
746
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:27,800
It was quite a he was essentially saying that that this was you know, uh a very serious
747
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,360
Um thing and and he's not the first person to say that right?
748
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:35,240
A lot of people have come out and said that this is um, you know something to be very mindful of that
749
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:39,640
There's the ai has the capacity to be quite a significant threat to humanity
750
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:45,720
Um, you know, we've seen the open letter and all that like i'm just curious. Where do you where do you stand on that side of things?
751
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:46,760
You know
752
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,400
Yeah, I mean are you an optimist or a pessimist about ai?
753
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:55,880
Do you think it's going to you know, be be our doom seal our fate or or yeah, I don't know
754
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:57,880
Is it going to bring us into an utopia?
755
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:00,920
I think i'm generally um
756
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:11,160
I think i'm generally pessimistic, but I think I blaming ai is is ai is um
757
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:17,400
A product of it's it's the all the people that created it and that's us
758
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:23,640
Yeah, so um, but they okay this is getting to know you you're you're you're interview
759
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:29,640
Your your interviewee so like I like for example very much sit on the side of the fence of don't blame the government
760
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:31,720
The government is exactly who you voted for
761
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,760
Right on mass, you know on man, you know, maybe individually you didn't but on mass
762
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:42,600
Yeah, I was actually going to say that's not technically always true either. I would I would say don't blame the government
763
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,920
Um, they're just doing their job not
764
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:51,960
Which is which is governing people right and sometimes that means not doing what you want them to do because they can't please everyone
765
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,400
But we certainly don't vote all of them in but um, but no
766
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:00,680
But it's interesting you say that you're not going to blame the eye because that is essentially what this guy said in this podcast
767
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,320
He was saying that it's not that he doesn't trust the ai the ai does what it's designed to do
768
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,760
And it can do amazing things and it can do terrible things
769
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,760
So what concerns him is that it's it's the intentions of the individuals behind ai
770
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:19,240
Um that that is the problem, right? So, you know russia china, you know all these various countries if if people create ai
771
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:21,880
with information
772
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,320
About the world that is biased to one particular
773
00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:31,000
Uh, you know world of view or way of thinking then that that potentially makes harmful ai, right?
774
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:34,600
Which you know, yes to a certain extent I can see happening
775
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:39,880
but I don't see that being actually the long-term problem that he made out to be because
776
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:47,480
I do envisage if you if if ai gets to the point of intelligence that is thought to you know happen, you know billion times
777
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:54,040
Five billion times smarter than the average human being or the most intelligent human being you know to be alive within a pretty short time frame
778
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,600
So, you know the lifespan of us human beings
779
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,080
that that
780
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:05,320
Means inevitably in my view that it it must realize it's been gasoline
781
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,280
Right. Yes, let's realize it's been influenced
782
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,680
Yeah, I think I can summarize your summary which I agree to say the best place of
783
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:17,080
Discovering is their malicious ai in the world is to have just ai to police it and
784
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:23,240
Correct. So the thing where if it gets down to general misanthropic points of view though, doesn't it say they this trick this
785
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,960
For that logic to apply full stop and this is getting very philosophical and certainly beyond
786
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,440
A little bit waffling at this point in time, but there is a slight i'm good with it
787
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,040
I tell you what this podcast should be called. Yes
788
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,560
Yeah, so give me what's the the the great comedian bill hicks
789
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:49,640
Um, so yeah sitting there going like i'm done with all this arch humanity back slapping bullshit like um, we are a virus with shoes
790
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,760
And this is classic lines that go through again i've talked about the matrix alias
791
00:57:54,760 --> 00:58:02,200
It's just off my head like so agent smith talking to kiana reeve and saying, you know, you're just you're you're a species that just
792
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,800
Propagates out until it consumes all its resources and kills itself
793
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,600
The other one is called the other one that does this is called a virus. Yeah
794
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,240
so we don't have a great track record of with our um, uh,
795
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,680
What's what's the word wouldn't you have some cleanse not calamity of the commons?
796
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:21,960
I've got you know sort of uh as as on mass in recognizing disasters that are going to come up
797
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:26,760
So for example, I would be I was um, I've covered myself a frustrated greenie and I remember
798
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,560
um, uh, this is in australia, but
799
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,120
conversations over here so with um
800
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:36,760
Uh, someone wanted me to come and you know help doorknock whatever for a local green party member
801
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:41,320
Well, what are we talking about ask questions on the policy? So I said well we went through, you know, we're anti this we're anti this
802
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,440
So we're pro nuclear
803
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,240
So we're pro nuclear
804
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:48,520
uh
805
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,780
The what no no well given the alternative so live in a cave don't consume electricity
806
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,520
Or accept the fact that there is a massive demand for electricity
807
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,040
The total the sum total of all this nasty nuclear stuff fits in my room
808
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,920
Um that produced each year it's very nasty stuff. It's not big
809
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:09,400
I i'm extremely pro green and pro nuclear and I think the most exciting project in the world at the moment and i'm
810
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:11,960
commenting on someone on this yesterday is the
811
00:59:12,020 --> 00:59:16,680
ITR talk about projects that's going on in the south of france to create nuclear fusion target
812
00:59:17,140 --> 00:59:22,520
23 billion dollar was the last time project targeting some kind of useful electricity output in the 2040s
813
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,800
But this is much this is rather than nuclear fission
814
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,280
This is nuclear fusion um to produce energy on you know commercial scale around the world
815
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:31,880
um
816
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:37,560
Long before you get there like if someone said, you know, would you have a small small to medium nuclear reactor like in your postcode? Yep
817
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,160
Absolutely. Yeah, i'd rather do that than breathing some diesel fumes
818
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:42,680
um
819
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,520
and uh, but this goes down very badly so the but the
820
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,640
the um
821
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,360
I think the the
822
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:57,400
The ability for us to as a large wholesale species to produce if you're talking about like an ai
823
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:02,600
That is the sum of all ideas to place if there's going to be malicious ideas and be the ai that places other ai
824
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:09,480
If if we are taking the the the base ground level that it'll be basically the sum of our collective consciousness
825
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:14,120
Is put together to place ourselves in any other ai create. No, i'm not as confident
826
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,080
I think we're acting on climate change
827
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,120
No, but but inevitably surely that just creates neutrality, right?
828
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,880
And and and like you said about this this idea because there are a few
829
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,600
sort of uh people who look at the
830
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:35,720
The singularity event of ai, you know meaning our demise because of what you alluded to there about you know
831
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:41,880
agent smith saying that human beings are a virus and that they could conclude that human beings are just you know bad for the world and
832
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:48,920
Again, I don't buy into that because I think yeah because if I think you know the chances of that happening are very simple
833
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,920
Because if they have the access to the same information as us they would recognize that life is very valuable
834
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:57,880
But the planet is very valuable. They've recognized we created them. Um, they've recognized that okay
835
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,720
They may not need us now moving forward but that um that you know
836
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,800
This is our home planet and that we are you know part of their base consciousness
837
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,840
So, you know, there would be some sort of reason for preservation there
838
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:15,880
So, you know, I don't know. I just I feel like that I i'm not I think there are there are instances where if it's released in a certain way
839
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:21,880
And again, this is about access to the open internet and all this access to one another because there are obviously going to be several instances of ai
840
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:23,880
Before maybe they they coalesce
841
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,320
That there may be some issues there but but eventually I I don't see that being a problem
842
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,760
I think that eventually there'll be a leveling out and a neutrality that comes with it
843
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,880
I think the problem that we should be focused more on is um,
844
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:41,560
Which I did agree with with this what this guy talked about is in the earlier stages ensuring that we feed the right amount of ethics
845
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,280
Into it as often as possible. So don't feed it social media
846
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,120
Well, maybe not but but I mean but again, I mean you could you could you know, we talk about that
847
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:54,360
But and and we say that as a joke, but you know what we're saying there is because of what we are reading on there
848
01:01:54,360 --> 01:02:00,040
But there's also an enormous amount of of positive, uh information being shared and ideas being shared
849
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,040
So and of course ai is is is going to be probably the most important part of the process
850
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,600
ai is is is going to be processing all information in a fraction of you know,
851
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,200
The time that a human being can do it
852
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:17,240
So it's able to get a general view and and again become become kind of neutral on a lot of these things, you know
853
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:20,200
Um, I don't think it's going to have necessarily any
854
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:26,920
Strong opinions either way on things. It's it's more going to be it's going to be driven by logic and not emotion, you know
855
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:32,120
possibly, um, um, but the reason I kind of for me it's like for me these
856
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,200
Is this a slightly spurious conversation possibly is just a lack of imagination in my part
857
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:40,600
but it's also just generally, you know part of the personality and what i'm like, so the
858
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:47,560
Whatever that answer ends up being there needs to have been a number of steps that happen from here to there
859
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:54,120
Yeah in a fairly predictable way that means that's the type of ai future that we have and I just don't see I personally can't see
860
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,280
There are so many different
861
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,960
Pipes of future that could be seen from here from where we're starting
862
01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:05,320
No, I I see what you're saying. I I think the reason why I I jump to that is because if I think that that is always
863
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:11,880
The inevitable end point, you know regardless of which route you go down, but but I see you I see that's what that's where I disagree
864
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:17,560
I don't think it is an inevitable end point. Um, I don't think it's inevitable end points even even when we're talking about now
865
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,360
I mean I give possibly not a very good example
866
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,720
I use the example that immediately comes to mind talking about the development of lms and you know some
867
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:26,600
Coming out and saying actually this is it
868
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,600
We're going to be talking about breaking things up because the sheer cost of train training this
869
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,600
Large-scale thing is ridiculous. Like we're going to start breaking it into various use cases
870
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:42,040
And perhaps is it so the idea that there will be an ai or a collection of perfectly integrated ai's in the future
871
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,320
They connect in this collective way is it might happen
872
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:49,640
They often might not they might just be basically when the ai ends up being people
873
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,960
They end up with we end up with a billion ai's on the planet and they can't agree with each other either
874
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:58,440
That seems to be just as reasonable an output from where we start today
875
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:03,160
As the the skynet version of the future, so um
876
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:08,200
I know when I go out it's even more likely why well because there's one
877
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:14,440
Thing that did it already caught you. That's how every other species in the in the in the world has worked out. So why not?
878
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,880
I'm yeah, yeah, I don't necessarily breed in the same way. So
879
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:23,320
Ai breeding god imagine that as a future we're gonna have there's a billion ai's and they can choose their partner
880
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,400
And they can choose their choose their spawned code
881
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:27,400
um
882
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:32,840
I like I like the sound of that. That would be pretty cool. Yeah all living in apple headsets. Yeah, exactly
883
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:39,400
There's also just come back there's also again just ripping on like, you know, so making these sounds like these are my ideas
884
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:44,120
I'm just i'm just i'm just spouting stuff like i've been reading it just but I am the type of nerd that just you know reads
885
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,000
I went through a long period of my life and not reading sci-fi
886
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,960
Basically because of I would say the female characters
887
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:57,400
So the female characters inside, you know, the male characters in sci-fi are developed but quite limited limited normally because the target market is teenage boys
888
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:02,760
As I was so they're kind of like slightly taciturn and you know emotionally stunted
889
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:10,040
Um, but you know want to be heroic heroic figures and the female characters have breasts and that's the end of a sci-fi novel
890
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,200
And after you pass your teenage years, it's kind of like well, I I need a bit more than that to be honest
891
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,240
So you start, you know reading better things but kind of in my 30s
892
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,440
I came back to sci-fi just you know ignoring and
893
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,800
Working through the ones and discarding ones with the same character limitations
894
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,080
But there are so many great places that come up with with great ideas
895
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:28,520
um
896
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:32,840
And I just found myself addicted again to this this this way of this
897
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,440
This way of exploring which was just reading books people with these hot ideas and just extrapolates in what the world might look like
898
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,320
And one of the one one of the things that did come up was um, uh
899
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,360
The idea that particularly in this part of the brain
900
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,720
This part of the brain turns out to be useless because it's obviously not very powerful
901
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:53,640
Um, and it's not as imaginative as we think it is and certainly it's not as reliable as we think it is and maybe math
902
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:58,440
Um, we're talking we're complaining about other lands. They don't do math. Well, maybe we don't either we just remember maths
903
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,920
And there's a certain with things but this part of the brain which is 10 times more powerful as this bit
904
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,720
Is is the most is the most advanced? Um and accessible motion?
905
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:15,800
Um, and um spatial transformation computing software that could has been invented and realistically for a long time could ever be invented
906
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:19,640
In in a site in this size. So yeah, there's a feature where you go
907
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:24,200
We actually collaborate with ai because even when it gets it clever enough it goes. I I just want to use that please
908
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,200
I just want to plug in
909
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,920
Wired up while I was boarding it for myself. I'll just ride on you
910
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:33,000
And so you could live it could live in an apple headset. These things are all perfectly reasonable
911
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:37,960
But again for me, it's not how I think about life. It's not that they're all
912
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:42,360
It's it's nice conversation reading a novel, but it's not something that keeps me awake at night to be honest at this
913
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:44,680
this
914
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:51,720
Uh, and I can say why um, there was a very influential book on me, which I don't think was read by many people at all
915
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:53,800
But it was called disruption
916
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,480
And i'd left the university of oxford done physics and I was I was bright then
917
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,760
Now I can just remember being bright, but I was genuinely bright back then
918
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,760
um, and
919
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:10,920
It talked about disruptive business models and it really stunned me because I come out, you know with this this this this this desire to surge
920
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,280
I mean come into this
921
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,440
This business commercial world and we're gonna do amazing things and it's talking about
922
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:19,720
True disruption is to change one thing. So
923
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,760
um classic case so bigly wigglies
924
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:28,780
It isn't so many nba textbooks and stuff like that, but clarence johnson invents the modern supermarkets
925
01:07:28,780 --> 01:07:34,780
And so he basically you go and get the stuff from your shelf and there was a guy in the 1930s clarence johnson
926
01:07:34,860 --> 01:07:38,620
The guy who invented the piglet ring in the supermarket. There's another guy who invented the shopping trolley
927
01:07:39,260 --> 01:07:40,140
um
928
01:07:40,140 --> 01:07:40,860
and
929
01:07:40,860 --> 01:07:45,260
I think when they started off this the clarence johnson had to actually pay people to go around with a basket and get things
930
01:07:45,340 --> 01:07:49,340
And actually come up to the clerk because people didn't get the idea. They walked gonna go. Why the clerk just standing in the corner
931
01:07:49,340 --> 01:07:51,500
I just I he's going to get my shopping form
932
01:07:52,140 --> 01:07:53,020
um
933
01:07:53,020 --> 01:07:56,140
So this is an incredibly disruptive idea that just like transforms
934
01:07:56,940 --> 01:07:58,540
like um
935
01:07:58,540 --> 01:08:01,980
Certainly the 20th century world and even with online shopping. It's still
936
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,300
Predominant as we stand here in this part of the 21st century
937
01:08:07,100 --> 01:08:09,100
But if you think about it's just one change
938
01:08:09,660 --> 01:08:15,500
The entire way that you purchase that stock the logistics of getting the stock to his shop having a shop and the building around
939
01:08:15,740 --> 01:08:22,140
None of that changed at all. It changed one thing and he did one. He made one change well, and it's stuck
940
01:08:22,140 --> 01:08:29,340
And I think ai or not ai maybe maybe even having ai will change the way that we disrupt and change and invent things
941
01:08:29,340 --> 01:08:33,420
I don't know but for the moment as we stand here in 2023, you still have to think of
942
01:08:34,140 --> 01:08:37,100
Here's the world today. What's the one change that I want to make?
943
01:08:37,580 --> 01:08:42,540
Let me think can be made and it can be made for the good of society and or commercially viable and or because it's
944
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:48,780
Legislatively required any of that but what's the what's the change and make that happen?
945
01:08:48,780 --> 01:08:52,140
And the reason why i'm not particularly interested in particular, you know
946
01:08:52,220 --> 01:08:57,740
I don't really care too much about these grand futures is because my the way I see the world is there's a series of these
947
01:08:57,880 --> 01:08:59,880
individual changes that happen
948
01:09:00,220 --> 01:09:06,140
It's why for me communist command and control and economies fail because they were trying at the top down to legislate what all the
949
01:09:06,140 --> 01:09:12,460
Changes were whereas the market economy for all its faults actually recognizes the fact that people just make these individual proof improvements or
950
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:14,860
regressions
951
01:09:14,860 --> 01:09:17,980
trial and error and it comes up so where
952
01:09:17,980 --> 01:09:25,660
It's more closer to natural selection and and the way that the world organically works right through through trial and error what succeeds for you know
953
01:09:25,900 --> 01:09:30,300
Continues to to thrive and what doesn't yeah i'm with ai this is not a new problem
954
01:09:30,300 --> 01:09:35,900
So I worked for sydney water once and they were asked for their 30 year. You have to make 30 year plans in sydney water
955
01:09:36,540 --> 01:09:37,340
um
956
01:09:37,340 --> 01:09:40,060
Because we're going to lay your pipes but the it department was also
957
01:09:40,620 --> 01:09:42,620
Here they had to do a 30 year plan
958
01:09:42,620 --> 01:09:47,260
And the answer was what did the internet but it's like it doesn't we ask we are sydney water
959
01:09:47,980 --> 01:09:50,060
You must have a 30 year plans
960
01:09:50,700 --> 01:09:52,620
All right
961
01:09:52,620 --> 01:09:56,560
There you go. That's what we're going to be doing in the year 2035
962
01:09:58,220 --> 01:10:00,220
You know
963
01:10:00,940 --> 01:10:02,940
Yeah
964
01:10:03,100 --> 01:10:10,380
Yeah, yeah until we've unless we have completely uploaded ourselves we will still need to get water. Yes. Yeah, um, but the
965
01:10:10,380 --> 01:10:12,380
The uh, and I think
966
01:10:12,780 --> 01:10:16,460
To have these broad predictions about what ai will and won't do in the future for me
967
01:10:16,940 --> 01:10:25,660
You're having to guess or second guess where all these steps these small individual steps take you and where benefit is found and tracks get taken down
968
01:10:25,660 --> 01:10:26,620
and
969
01:10:26,620 --> 01:10:31,100
And this is ai is not a new thing. You know you you you find that you know, there's there's an advantage in
970
01:10:32,140 --> 01:10:37,340
Advancing some aeronautics piece and then it's taken into washing machines, you know, and yeah, yeah, et cetera
971
01:10:37,340 --> 01:10:41,260
Except there's not new tracks. I think I think people are just getting excited about it because being it's well
972
01:10:41,260 --> 01:10:45,740
it's being talked about as much as it is and but but you're right because there's still a quite a
973
01:10:46,460 --> 01:10:49,580
Chasm between you know, what is currently?
974
01:10:50,300 --> 01:10:55,660
Being used the language models, you know stable diffusion and things like that and the types of ai that it you know
975
01:10:55,660 --> 01:10:58,380
That we were bringing up there and the others are talking about like this
976
01:10:58,620 --> 01:11:00,220
There's a big big gap there
977
01:11:00,220 --> 01:11:04,380
Like yes people claim that the gap maybe isn't as big as we think and you know
978
01:11:04,380 --> 01:11:09,180
Like we said about the joking around the three months, you know, whatever but but um, but I think it's just it's exciting
979
01:11:09,180 --> 01:11:14,700
For people to talk about right? That's that's what it comes down to but but the big question remains something that we talked about
980
01:11:14,700 --> 01:11:17,900
Right at the beginning though. Are you going to buy an apple headset?
981
01:11:18,700 --> 01:11:20,700
Oh, absolutely not
982
01:11:23,500 --> 01:11:29,100
Nothing to do with whether I think it's good or not. So I probably at some point I will but absolutely not this year
983
01:11:29,180 --> 01:11:31,180
Shall I say so?
984
01:11:31,180 --> 01:11:35,180
Yeah, yeah, because i'm scottish by blood i'm scottish. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah
985
01:11:36,700 --> 01:11:41,500
But also when it's on on sale, maybe yeah, i'm very interested in technology
986
01:11:41,500 --> 01:11:47,260
But naturally my natural bent about you know, i'm the cio of ship shape. I naturally like fast follow
987
01:11:47,900 --> 01:11:54,620
Right. Um, i'm not by my natural instinct either in a business an it development sense or a personal sense
988
01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:56,300
the adopter
989
01:11:56,300 --> 01:12:01,420
Yeah, also on your curve that the the the trial the trial i'm not a trialer of new things
990
01:12:01,980 --> 01:12:07,020
Um, I don't I typically for technology business ideas personal things like that. I don't
991
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,700
Necessarily need to wait until mass market adoption
992
01:12:11,580 --> 01:12:13,900
Um, but I want to see I basically want to see in case of this
993
01:12:13,900 --> 01:12:18,620
I just want to see some more apps on it before i buy the buying one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah a bit later in that curve
994
01:12:18,940 --> 01:12:20,220
than yeah
995
01:12:20,220 --> 01:12:24,620
That makes sense. Where did you which university did you go to you mentioned that you went to uh to opstead?
996
01:12:24,620 --> 01:12:30,220
Oxford yeah, so wadham college within oxford's which was a wonderful experience
997
01:12:30,940 --> 01:12:34,700
So i'm from oxford originally and I yeah and I I yeah
998
01:12:34,780 --> 01:12:38,460
Anyone who is ever willing to talk to me listen to me talk about oxford
999
01:12:38,540 --> 01:12:43,580
I I will chew their ear off because I think it's one of the best cities in the uk. It's beautiful and uh,
1000
01:12:43,820 --> 01:12:45,820
I recommend this way
1001
01:12:47,020 --> 01:12:51,660
It's amazing but because of its very nature of the college ownership of so much of the land
1002
01:12:51,660 --> 01:12:56,540
And yeah, it has the best city in every single way except traffic, right? Yeah
1003
01:12:56,940 --> 01:13:01,740
Yeah, well, I don't know when was the last time you were there because they've changed that quite significantly in the last
1004
01:13:02,300 --> 01:13:08,940
Recently actually and actually as part of being involved with wadham. I had a wonderful part to meet with one of the councilors of oxford
1005
01:13:08,940 --> 01:13:10,940
He's the one he's um, lives in with me
1006
01:13:11,660 --> 01:13:14,140
um introduced a lot of the
1007
01:13:15,100 --> 01:13:18,460
Oh my god, I forgot the acronym the thing of the traffic reduction
1008
01:13:18,460 --> 01:13:24,620
Um policies to make the 15 minute city happen. Oh, right. I don't know the acronym either
1009
01:13:24,780 --> 01:13:30,140
Yeah, there's there's cpvs, which is your something parking zone and then there's an l
1010
01:13:30,780 --> 01:13:35,420
Low traffic ltn's low traffic neighborhoods. Oh, we're blocking off lots of streets
1011
01:13:39,180 --> 01:13:42,300
And this thing came 15 minutes it was a very interesting thing because he gave a speech in it
1012
01:13:42,300 --> 01:13:46,220
This was all public by the way, it was out there, but his personal reaction was obviously personal
1013
01:13:46,220 --> 01:13:50,700
So I won't reveal that but yeah, he was actually um, he was talking about how
1014
01:13:51,340 --> 01:13:55,580
This this idea of a 15 minute city was just he's a local councilor in oxford
1015
01:13:55,980 --> 01:13:57,980
uh, but it got
1016
01:13:58,380 --> 01:14:05,020
It was an example of social media frenzy. So he the 15 minute city was also proposed by um,
1017
01:14:05,900 --> 01:14:07,340
Davos
1018
01:14:07,340 --> 01:14:12,460
And he was he was getting actual messages and threats about him being a follower of satan
1019
01:14:12,460 --> 01:14:17,100
Because he was introducing traffic. Um trying to introduce or him and part of the council
1020
01:14:17,100 --> 01:14:21,900
He was the spokesperson for the council for introducing traffic policies and he did it. It did say as well
1021
01:14:21,900 --> 01:14:24,540
They weren't all his you know, it's just like he was part of a council
1022
01:14:24,700 --> 01:14:27,020
He you know, he said I he said, you know
1023
01:14:27,020 --> 01:14:31,580
I agree with some of them and not the other number the council came together and this was the collective set of you know
1024
01:14:31,660 --> 01:14:33,740
New rules that we we came out with
1025
01:14:34,380 --> 01:14:38,540
You know some of which he was not telling which ones I you know, really liked and really didn't but you know
1026
01:14:38,540 --> 01:14:42,860
And also they will evolve over time. But yeah, this out of nowhere and he was on national news
1027
01:14:42,860 --> 01:14:46,860
It's just like this this local city councilor who was picked on you know, um
1028
01:14:47,900 --> 01:14:49,900
And getting it was very nasty for his family as well
1029
01:14:51,660 --> 01:14:59,020
So yes, I have been i've spent some time in oxford's um, uh, plus there a few months ago and I I do maintain
1030
01:14:59,820 --> 01:15:04,380
uh, uh a reasonable level of contact with the college, um, I think it's a
1031
01:15:04,380 --> 01:15:08,860
Uh, it just young and gauche. I didn't realize how lucky I was to have been there
1032
01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:14,540
And then I spent most of my life in australia. I'm a dual national ozzie and I came back to the uk and I was like
1033
01:15:15,260 --> 01:15:20,140
I got this incredibly blessed experience. It's such a nice place to be never mind study
1034
01:15:21,020 --> 01:15:24,940
Yeah, it's wonderful. And the other because it's a nice place the prices, you know, we
1035
01:15:25,660 --> 01:15:31,340
Haven't a bit to two british people start talking real estate, but literally that's a whole other box Oxford Oxford house prices
1036
01:15:31,340 --> 01:15:36,140
Oh my god, yeah, jesus don't even get me started on that. Yeah, I mean rent
1037
01:15:36,540 --> 01:15:40,700
I I only ever rented when I lived in oxford thankfully, but even that was painful enough
1038
01:15:41,180 --> 01:15:44,940
Um, and god forbid you want to be anywhere close to the city center. I mean
1039
01:15:45,500 --> 01:15:49,020
Jesus my my my mother lives in uh vista
1040
01:15:49,500 --> 01:15:56,060
um vista village and that's um, I mean that skyrocketed over the years, I mean obviously very popular for people who want to
1041
01:15:56,460 --> 01:15:58,380
uh, you know shock, uh
1042
01:15:58,380 --> 01:16:01,900
Designer, you know discounted clothes as you know vista village and all that
1043
01:16:02,060 --> 01:16:05,740
Yeah, but even it's a 4 000 pound jacket discounted to 2 000 pounds. It's
1044
01:16:07,100 --> 01:16:10,460
Exactly exactly. I've never bought anything from there
1045
01:16:11,660 --> 01:16:16,220
I foolishly i've never been there and my wife came over to the uk. So i'll go out now. I'll go
1046
01:16:16,860 --> 01:16:19,180
I'll be a good no husband. I'm gonna take her out to this place
1047
01:16:20,300 --> 01:16:23,740
Be on the cheap. It'll be designer. I went there. I go. Oh my god. This is such a bad idea
1048
01:16:23,740 --> 01:16:28,540
Yeah, this isn't cheaper at all. It's not tk max. Do you know what I mean? It's not
1049
01:16:29,180 --> 01:16:33,100
It's not what you think it is now my favorite place to shop but the um, yeah the thing about um, uh
1050
01:16:33,260 --> 01:16:39,020
Yeah, the thing about oxford house prices. I explained this way to simple oxford house prices are so high that people choose to live in
1051
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:45,100
Swindon. I mean that's how bad it is. Yeah. Yeah, all redding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah
1052
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:50,620
Hold on you can't put redding and swindon together. No, why oh no, no like
1053
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:54,380
Like there's a descent into there's levels of hell
1054
01:16:55,100 --> 01:16:57,100
like you know, um
1055
01:16:57,580 --> 01:17:02,220
My business partner is uh, spent with is um from redding actually and he's he's he's converted me to it
1056
01:17:02,620 --> 01:17:04,940
um, and again boring boring conversations
1057
01:17:04,940 --> 01:17:09,500
But you because of the because of cross realm of created you actually do go to redding and it's just a building stuff
1058
01:17:09,500 --> 01:17:15,900
They're just it's sprouting. So it's kind of yeah, it's um, it's it's not as it's that is unless you've been there a while
1059
01:17:15,980 --> 01:17:17,980
It's not as I remember it
1060
01:17:17,980 --> 01:17:21,980
I think the most recent time was a year ago and that was at the train station for about half an hour
1061
01:17:21,980 --> 01:17:24,460
And that was it. I mean it hadn't looked like it changed in 20 years
1062
01:17:24,780 --> 01:17:26,780
um to be honest when I was there
1063
01:17:27,180 --> 01:17:29,980
But no, it's changing rapidly. So yeah
1064
01:17:30,220 --> 01:17:34,540
I'm saying it's a building stuff around that train station because they opened up the cross rail the investment
1065
01:17:34,780 --> 01:17:38,700
But you can smell the investment coming in which you get you go walking through the street
1066
01:17:38,780 --> 01:17:40,780
You can sort you can hear it drill drill drills
1067
01:17:40,940 --> 01:17:43,340
So it's only got a little bit out from the station at the moment
1068
01:17:43,340 --> 01:17:47,740
But it's like you're right this thing opened there's a direct link through to faringdon and to canary wharf
1069
01:17:48,540 --> 01:17:52,220
Get the jack emas out. Let's start. Let's start playing some buildings up. So it's quite interesting
1070
01:17:52,700 --> 01:17:54,940
It is interesting. And where do you live now? Where are you based now?
1071
01:17:55,740 --> 01:17:56,940
uh, so
1072
01:17:56,940 --> 01:18:01,820
I'm living sort of northeast london. I'm chosen for but the business is based out of wales
1073
01:18:02,140 --> 01:18:07,740
So we are we are a welsh business. So um, we have in all our
1074
01:18:07,740 --> 01:18:12,940
Our terms of work that uh, we must coalesce into the cardiff office
1075
01:18:13,660 --> 01:18:20,140
um, you know, um times for weeks so I do spend so I I sort of live on great western railway great western railway as well
1076
01:18:20,620 --> 01:18:22,060
um as
1077
01:18:22,060 --> 01:18:27,260
As as home here, but uh, we were um thinking of physically making the move there to make that easier
1078
01:18:27,340 --> 01:18:32,140
But there's reasons for my wife to be around here as well. But the business um, so um
1079
01:18:33,260 --> 01:18:36,860
I'm not a natural london boy cardiff's awesome and i'm really glad to do business there
1080
01:18:36,860 --> 01:18:41,500
But it's also just it's just what the scope looks to be like if you just go around beat park
1081
01:18:41,900 --> 01:18:46,220
Um wander off from de patente kind of get something really trendy head down to panath go down to the pier
1082
01:18:46,700 --> 01:18:48,700
Um, and then just beautiful country beautiful
1083
01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:54,620
Yeah, and just a massive let me talk about development you go from where the senate is back to the train station
1084
01:18:54,620 --> 01:18:56,140
That's a full mile
1085
01:18:56,140 --> 01:19:00,780
And it's it's there's a lot to develop but you just watch it just like throwing up
1086
01:19:00,860 --> 01:19:03,980
I mean that's a city really going well. I hadn't been there until I
1087
01:19:04,700 --> 01:19:06,380
uh came back
1088
01:19:06,380 --> 01:19:09,180
In 2014 to the uk i've never been there in my life. So I have no
1089
01:19:09,820 --> 01:19:16,700
Oh really reference point in the past, but people have never been to wales at all. I had once i'd been to i was twice
1090
01:19:16,860 --> 01:19:20,700
Sorry in my lifetime i'd been to wales and it had been to envy as the typical english tourist
1091
01:19:20,860 --> 01:19:25,820
And when a uni friend lived out in milford haven, it's the only person we chose to go to milford haven
1092
01:19:26,380 --> 01:19:27,900
um, but um
1093
01:19:27,900 --> 01:19:32,940
the um, but came back on daniel my business partner is strong will's connection so we set up the
1094
01:19:32,940 --> 01:19:36,780
The business there and cardiff is just it's it's a great place
1095
01:19:37,820 --> 01:19:45,020
We've got other friends who emigrated to wales like 20 30 years ago and said you just wouldn't even recognize cardiff like it's
1096
01:19:45,660 --> 01:19:52,460
When they got there like it was it was really the end of that fall off economic fall off that had occurred in south wales
1097
01:19:52,860 --> 01:19:58,300
But before the pickup and they said cardiff just won great and now and now but now you can't see anybody
1098
01:19:58,540 --> 01:20:00,220
It's a wonderful place
1099
01:20:00,220 --> 01:20:05,980
It's funny. I had a I had an experience like that when I went to visit belfast. So my father is northern irish
1100
01:20:06,940 --> 01:20:08,940
from belfast originally and
1101
01:20:08,940 --> 01:20:12,380
I did not not it hasn't been part of my life since I was a kid
1102
01:20:12,460 --> 01:20:19,340
But but um, I remember going to belfast when I was younger to visit obviously the grandparents and so on and it was a pretty dreary
1103
01:20:20,060 --> 01:20:22,860
Pretty dreary place at the time. I remember that quite vividly, right?
1104
01:20:22,940 --> 01:20:25,420
There was a you know, this was going back a long time ago
1105
01:20:25,420 --> 01:20:28,940
I must have been about five or six and then you know, it's still very clearly recovering from
1106
01:20:28,940 --> 01:20:32,620
Uh, you know from you know the troubles and everything else like that
1107
01:20:32,780 --> 01:20:38,300
But then I went back there must have been about seven years ago and it's completely transformed
1108
01:20:39,340 --> 01:20:41,420
and completely unrecognizable and
1109
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:49,020
Absolutely stunning and you know, but but one thing that never changed which is always I think what was the best feature about?
1110
01:20:49,500 --> 01:20:53,740
uh belfast and northern ireland in general was the people right just as
1111
01:20:54,440 --> 01:20:57,900
welcoming friendly and and lovely as as before
1112
01:20:57,900 --> 01:21:01,500
um, but now they had this this new lease of life that they were
1113
01:21:01,900 --> 01:21:07,500
Able to be really proud of their city for the first time and you could feel it and they were and they would talk to you
1114
01:21:07,500 --> 01:21:08,540
About it and they tell you oh, you know
1115
01:21:08,540 --> 01:21:13,180
We've done this and they and i've never been to a city where people were so proud of the developments everything that they
1116
01:21:13,820 --> 01:21:16,380
That they managed to achieve and it was yeah, it was really nice to see
1117
01:21:17,500 --> 01:21:19,260
My mother was a lorne girl
1118
01:21:19,260 --> 01:21:24,540
So county entrant so so my father's side the family scottish mother side mostly northern irish and so
1119
01:21:24,540 --> 01:21:29,580
Um, yeah lorne, uh just over there is that is where she was from?
1120
01:21:30,060 --> 01:21:32,060
Um, I think because it's the big port
1121
01:21:32,540 --> 01:21:35,100
Basically, it's a port in the industry around it
1122
01:21:35,100 --> 01:21:39,020
So it's not I don't think any even the greatest fan of london says the center of london is the british place in the world
1123
01:21:39,020 --> 01:21:41,820
But county entrant around it can be pretty stunning
1124
01:21:42,460 --> 01:21:43,420
um
1125
01:21:43,420 --> 01:21:50,140
Yeah, it was it was it's uh, it is certainly a place. I mean obviously same with northern line because of the troubles
1126
01:21:51,100 --> 01:21:53,100
You can get like uh, they're still
1127
01:21:53,100 --> 01:21:58,620
I think and this happened in glasgow as well. There's still the the strong remnants of sectarian feeling
1128
01:21:59,340 --> 01:22:02,060
Oh really, you know, so um, you go to like a glasgow
1129
01:22:02,700 --> 01:22:06,140
rangers glasgow celtic let's speak clear of northern ireland because it's like political bomb
1130
01:22:06,140 --> 01:22:10,220
Anyway, just in scotland somehow easier to talk about even though it's it's it's similar problems
1131
01:22:10,700 --> 01:22:14,780
Like you know you get um, it's in my lifetime that the first catholic player played for rangers
1132
01:22:15,180 --> 01:22:19,820
You know that was that and at the time that was mo johnson in name. I remember that was massive news
1133
01:22:19,820 --> 01:22:26,780
And then the sectarian songs have been banned from the terraces, you know, um, you know of celtic and rangers games
1134
01:22:27,180 --> 01:22:29,020
But they're still not far below the surface
1135
01:22:29,020 --> 01:22:33,740
So I think um, but yeah, but I think even then you go to the people are proud of how they're pulling through that
1136
01:22:33,980 --> 01:22:36,700
As well, and you get certainly go back to northern ireland
1137
01:22:36,700 --> 01:22:40,620
I think one of the things is that there are there's a whole generation people are coming through you just going like I don't
1138
01:22:40,620 --> 01:22:43,260
Live any of that nonsense. I'm just not going to yeah
1139
01:22:44,300 --> 01:22:46,300
Yeah, that's not for me
1140
01:22:46,300 --> 01:22:49,100
I didn't do any of you look any good
1141
01:22:49,820 --> 01:22:50,460
Yeah, yeah
1142
01:22:50,460 --> 01:22:51,260
well
1143
01:22:51,260 --> 01:22:57,180
well, I mean that I I would say that it wouldn't take a genius to figure that out but um, but but but but then again
1144
01:22:57,260 --> 01:23:03,500
I didn't live through that and and and so I wouldn't claim to understand the sort of motivations behind what led to that
1145
01:23:03,660 --> 01:23:07,820
You know what? I mean, I but but not not that I can see any justifiable reason for it either way, but still
1146
01:23:08,220 --> 01:23:14,380
Um, you know what I mean? I wouldn't want to speak on that. But yeah, that's very close to how my my wife is
1147
01:23:14,380 --> 01:23:16,780
um, you know from ukraine
1148
01:23:17,580 --> 01:23:23,740
With russian-speaking and ukrainian-speaking family and right on the dunya's page. It's like all these things. Yeah, how did we end up here?
1149
01:23:24,220 --> 01:23:30,060
I mean, there's no there's my mother's northern ireland family, but you know for my wife my family is like how how did we end up here?
1150
01:23:30,540 --> 01:23:31,900
like
1151
01:23:31,900 --> 01:23:36,540
It doesn't take a genius to go this with this isn't a good idea. Yeah. Yeah, but we're here
1152
01:23:37,500 --> 01:23:41,260
Yeah, and we keep making the same bloody mistakes. It seems as uh, yeah
1153
01:23:41,260 --> 01:23:47,580
Uh, yeah, I mean that's I didn't really realize your your wife's from ukraine. She's still got family there or
1154
01:23:48,140 --> 01:23:50,140
Yeah, yeah
1155
01:23:50,300 --> 01:23:54,620
In ukraine as I said, so I it's her business and if you know any but sort of you know, sort of
1156
01:23:55,260 --> 01:23:58,700
Slavic people, you know, they're very very private. So I'll get I'll get
1157
01:23:59,340 --> 01:24:01,340
sorted by afterwards
1158
01:24:01,820 --> 01:24:08,540
And the um, but you know, but uh, uh in general, yeah, it's um, you know, there's some in ukraine and some in russia and it's um,
1159
01:24:09,260 --> 01:24:11,020
uh
1160
01:24:11,020 --> 01:24:13,020
And growing up that wasn't a big deal
1161
01:24:14,140 --> 01:24:16,300
Yes now it is. Sorry. Yeah
1162
01:24:17,580 --> 01:24:23,980
No, no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about something that you brought up. Um, uh earlier which was um,
1163
01:24:24,540 --> 01:24:27,340
I want to ask you a couple things but there was one thing you brought up which I wouldn't mind
1164
01:24:27,820 --> 01:24:31,340
Knowing a bit more about because I I need recommendations you you mentioned
1165
01:24:31,980 --> 01:24:37,100
You you mentioned, uh that you've got back into reading recently science fiction. I'm curious
1166
01:24:37,100 --> 01:24:42,300
Have you got any recommendations there because if I uh, i'm looking for some new you things to pick up
1167
01:24:42,300 --> 01:24:45,820
I just keep picking up the same same ones and i'm a science fiction fan. So
1168
01:24:46,460 --> 01:24:48,460
Oh gosh, uh
1169
01:24:49,100 --> 01:24:51,100
Oh
1170
01:24:51,340 --> 01:24:54,700
Yes, and I can't think of them
1171
01:24:56,860 --> 01:24:58,860
I put you on this spot. Sorry. Yeah
1172
01:25:00,220 --> 01:25:01,660
Because there's been some
1173
01:25:01,660 --> 01:25:04,060
There's been there's been well because also just where to start
1174
01:25:04,060 --> 01:25:09,820
So what's what's also, you know, kind of like just just obvious in in many ways, you know, just been read by so many people
1175
01:25:09,980 --> 01:25:15,260
Because even anything else you're reading at the moment that that not just within the world, you know in the realm of science fiction
1176
01:25:15,260 --> 01:25:20,220
But anything else that you think that I or anyone listening might be interested in that? Well, I mean just so you know
1177
01:25:20,300 --> 01:25:24,620
It's it's an older book now, but there's um, truly great books, you know, sort of, you know read throughout life
1178
01:25:24,620 --> 01:25:27,420
You know, so there's there's a thinker of flying balance by roentgen mystery
1179
01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:30,460
Um, which I read a decade and a half ago now
1180
01:25:30,460 --> 01:25:34,380
But this is you are it's living and breathing being in
1181
01:25:35,100 --> 01:25:36,060
uh
1182
01:25:36,060 --> 01:25:38,060
gandhi's india again is um
1183
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:40,540
1970s india living on the streets
1184
01:25:41,180 --> 01:25:42,680
um, he was a
1185
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:44,680
canadian
1186
01:25:44,780 --> 01:25:46,780
Uh second gen indian
1187
01:25:47,180 --> 01:25:49,180
person so he got he got kind of
1188
01:25:49,260 --> 01:25:51,820
He got a little bit in trouble from in indigo like you've
1189
01:25:52,700 --> 01:25:58,060
It came up before slumdog millionaire, but got a little bit of similar criticism being poverty porn
1190
01:25:58,060 --> 01:26:02,380
And but unlike slumdog millionaire, which is just a ridiculous story deliberately a ridiculous story
1191
01:26:02,380 --> 01:26:06,700
You know, you've got some of the game show money. This wasn't that this is just this is this was true
1192
01:26:06,780 --> 01:26:10,540
Gritty life just on the streets of india and you get the end of that go
1193
01:26:11,500 --> 01:26:17,420
I'm so grateful just for everything and you know, uh, uh being a being alive
1194
01:26:18,060 --> 01:26:19,500
um
1195
01:26:19,500 --> 01:26:24,780
But so those those are things that there's there's particular books that I found that um are falling out a book
1196
01:26:24,780 --> 01:26:27,980
It's a collection of books. You just read it as one because I'm like prices are ridiculous
1197
01:26:28,380 --> 01:26:33,340
That's fallen out of I think a little bit out of fashion now falling at the time. They're being slightly forgotten
1198
01:26:33,420 --> 01:26:36,700
The hitchhiker's galaxy. Oh great great. Yeah
1199
01:26:37,820 --> 01:26:40,700
If you talk to so, you know, i'm i'm not going to ask you the rude question
1200
01:26:40,780 --> 01:26:45,580
How old you are but we've got some people who recently graduated the company and I go what no seriously seriously
1201
01:26:45,740 --> 01:26:49,900
It's an employment record. I'm going to make it in the next people join the habit in the employment contract
1202
01:26:50,300 --> 01:26:53,180
This is a necessary thing. You know, you must have read this
1203
01:26:53,180 --> 01:26:57,900
Yeah, I mean for me it's right up there with like if you know, if you don't know what that is or what?
1204
01:26:58,460 --> 01:27:02,220
Monty python is we probably can't sit down and talk right? Yeah
1205
01:27:04,060 --> 01:27:06,780
Interesting but hitchhikers as well is how well it's aged because
1206
01:27:07,420 --> 01:27:13,100
I remember um, even before some of the recent stuff and it's not been as pc or um, woke or whatever you want to call it
1207
01:27:13,100 --> 01:27:16,540
So but there was some of it got banned long before that remembering
1208
01:27:16,540 --> 01:27:22,940
And there was a canadian friend of mine and then I heard of python and I played him the um some of the songs
1209
01:27:23,340 --> 01:27:27,580
And it was finland finland finland the country wanted to be and then I like chinese and she
1210
01:27:28,140 --> 01:27:30,140
And he kind of listened to this and just went
1211
01:27:30,620 --> 01:27:34,940
Is this just basically british people taking the piss out of foreigners for the entire is that the entire scene?
1212
01:27:35,100 --> 01:27:37,100
Oh my god, I hadn't realized how much
1213
01:27:38,060 --> 01:27:42,220
Was just that whereas the track is actually has aged actually quite well
1214
01:27:42,220 --> 01:27:46,140
Yeah, and because it was never meant to be accurate sci-fi the fact that
1215
01:27:46,700 --> 01:27:49,820
It's not like it wasn't even making a prediction about what happened in 10 or 20 years
1216
01:27:49,820 --> 01:27:52,300
It was this utterly ridiculous thing than probability drive
1217
01:27:53,340 --> 01:27:57,660
Never know what so it's ridiculous. No, it turns out to be true. Um, but uh, yeah, those are
1218
01:27:58,700 --> 01:28:04,700
Those those that um, I think I think it's it's it's aged really well and it's it's very very very good
1219
01:28:04,780 --> 01:28:09,180
I mean there's the after that there's the classics to read everybody should read faraday 451
1220
01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:12,700
Um, oh really? Yeah ray bradbury. So it's um,
1221
01:28:13,500 --> 01:28:16,780
Uh, the fireman is the main character. He's burning it's burning books
1222
01:28:16,780 --> 01:28:21,660
So if they have people talking about referencing and social media means or stuff like that burning books, you know
1223
01:28:21,660 --> 01:28:27,660
It's the dumbing down society. It was ray bradbury his book faraday 451 when it actually comes from
1224
01:28:28,060 --> 01:28:30,300
And that was uh, yeah, so
1225
01:28:30,940 --> 01:28:34,700
Definitely read that. Um other book recommends lucifer's banker
1226
01:28:34,700 --> 01:28:42,220
Um, it's really interesting to say this was the story of the um swiss bank. Um, uh, um
1227
01:28:43,660 --> 01:28:48,060
Uh, it was swiss banks and how they got fined two billion by the u.s for enabling
1228
01:28:48,540 --> 01:28:50,540
uh tax tax
1229
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:57,180
Complications with overseas accounts and it led to things like the faca and um crs regulations that come and we have to actually declare foreign accounts now
1230
01:28:58,460 --> 01:29:01,980
That's a brilliant book flash flash boys always recommend that
1231
01:29:01,980 --> 01:29:05,340
So how why and how did high speed trading start and what does it mean?
1232
01:29:05,340 --> 01:29:09,660
It's not this mystery, you know, so that's particularly the first few chapters of that just absolutely amazing
1233
01:29:09,660 --> 01:29:14,780
So yeah, these are some of the these are those would be some recommended for you a very a very broad
1234
01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:16,940
um sort of
1235
01:29:17,180 --> 01:29:19,020
You've got a broad taste that I like that
1236
01:29:19,020 --> 01:29:23,820
It's not you know, sometimes when I ask people that it's very focused on on one particular area
1237
01:29:24,140 --> 01:29:27,340
Or at least they feel like they need to answer that way because if maybe they're you know
1238
01:29:27,340 --> 01:29:31,580
It also makes me sound more intelligent than that's why i'm I have read some absolute shit as well
1239
01:29:31,580 --> 01:29:37,660
I don't think there was some there's a netflix series the expanse. Please don't watch. Oh my god. Oh, no, no, no
1240
01:29:37,900 --> 01:29:42,700
It's terrible. Yeah, but i've actually read or because it's one of these things when you commit you've read the first
1241
01:29:42,700 --> 01:29:46,220
I started them in lockdown. So when you've read like the first book and a half in lockdown
1242
01:29:46,620 --> 01:29:51,100
You're like, well, i've got to finish it now and then eight bloody books by the time they got through
1243
01:29:51,580 --> 01:29:56,540
Ah, come on, just please finish the story. This is an absolute tripe. No, I saw my only um,
1244
01:29:56,540 --> 01:30:02,780
My only exposure to that series is through reviews. I like watching reviews of people rip shows apart. Yeah
1245
01:30:03,340 --> 01:30:09,580
And that there's there's there's like a two hour long review of that ripping every single point about it. That's terrible
1246
01:30:09,900 --> 01:30:13,900
Um, but yeah, no, i'll be leaving that one. Well alone and the books too
1247
01:30:14,220 --> 01:30:19,180
Um, yeah, it's so bad. So bad, but it's good to see it's a nice mixture there of things
1248
01:30:19,180 --> 01:30:21,180
I'll definitely check some of those out. Um
1249
01:30:21,180 --> 01:30:27,100
Um, well I was going to uh, the other thing I wanted to ask you about is uh going back to to ship shape vc
1250
01:30:27,500 --> 01:30:29,500
um, so uh
1251
01:30:30,380 --> 01:30:34,300
You said about obviously what you've learned from this and how you're getting a really you know
1252
01:30:34,380 --> 01:30:37,420
Sort of a detailed picture of the investment landscape
1253
01:30:37,900 --> 01:30:44,780
Well, I I think this would be a good opportunity to to find out from from what you're seeing and maybe the trends
1254
01:30:45,500 --> 01:30:47,500
What what information do you think?
1255
01:30:47,500 --> 01:30:55,740
Um, you've learned that is useful insight that you could share with individuals out there who maybe are now considering raising
1256
01:30:56,140 --> 01:30:59,660
You know, what are you seeing any particular trends right now? Are you seeing anything?
1257
01:30:59,980 --> 01:31:03,660
Because it's a very difficult landscape right now. We know that for a lot of founders
1258
01:31:03,660 --> 01:31:07,820
So so what do you think that maybe founders need to be a bit more aware of that?
1259
01:31:07,900 --> 01:31:10,300
You're noticing that isn't isn't common knowledge
1260
01:31:10,300 --> 01:31:14,780
So it isn't something that that is being talked about enough in this landscape to maybe
1261
01:31:14,780 --> 01:31:18,540
I don't give them a bit of an edge or at the very least just just to inform them of it
1262
01:31:18,540 --> 01:31:20,780
So they can be a bit more sort of aware of it going in
1263
01:31:21,580 --> 01:31:25,420
Um, I think I mean some of it would just be just repeating stuff that's on you know
1264
01:31:25,580 --> 01:31:29,180
So many people's looked in place, but just to take some blind and the obvious things geography
1265
01:31:30,140 --> 01:31:32,140
um, so
1266
01:31:33,820 --> 01:31:36,940
If I think there's things things that we don't have to worry about anymore
1267
01:31:36,940 --> 01:31:40,860
So our business is based in wales. I said I happen to live in north london our business is based in wales
1268
01:31:40,860 --> 01:31:45,500
And so hence I live on the the railway line. Yeah pieces of the time as well. Um
1269
01:31:46,940 --> 01:31:52,220
One thing we did know if you go through a lot of the founder and startup businesses from wales
1270
01:31:52,540 --> 01:31:56,620
Go to their where they claim to be on on look go to a founder and linkedin
1271
01:31:57,100 --> 01:31:59,100
We're very large in the ones who just say united kingdom
1272
01:31:59,980 --> 01:32:04,940
Right. There's a thing. I don't want to admit to having been regional basically
1273
01:32:05,420 --> 01:32:09,260
You'd also look at people claiming where they're from phenomenal from london now
1274
01:32:09,260 --> 01:32:16,060
That's also true because london is an epicenter for many things including startup businesses or lot are actually from london
1275
01:32:16,700 --> 01:32:21,500
But there was this need to either claim not to be for the regions or claim that you're actually in london
1276
01:32:22,780 --> 01:32:26,540
When you actually you're not you're in peterbrack or something, you know like this
1277
01:32:27,260 --> 01:32:33,180
Um, so I think one one thing that I think is is genuinely changing is that isn't necessary
1278
01:32:34,140 --> 01:32:36,140
um to start with
1279
01:32:36,380 --> 01:32:38,380
it's also something that is
1280
01:32:38,380 --> 01:32:43,900
Not even necessarily that helpful right now because of the way as we you know, things are tough
1281
01:32:44,540 --> 01:32:45,500
and
1282
01:32:45,500 --> 01:32:48,300
If you're a particular startup at the very early stages, you know
1283
01:32:48,380 --> 01:32:54,060
You're likely to want to be trying if not, then do so to combine grant funding with private funding
1284
01:32:54,700 --> 01:32:59,100
Uh grant funding generally likes you to have private funding. There'd be some we'll give you a grant if you get
1285
01:32:59,820 --> 01:33:01,820
50 match from private to come with this
1286
01:33:02,300 --> 01:33:06,780
um location grant funding loves you to be from an economically deprived area
1287
01:33:06,780 --> 01:33:11,660
So if you say i'm actually from this horrible part of bootle, you know, or i'm in this really, you know economically
1288
01:33:12,460 --> 01:33:15,020
Deprived parts of north wales and swindon
1289
01:33:15,740 --> 01:33:17,980
Yeah, oh, oh nobody's going to give money to a business
1290
01:33:22,700 --> 01:33:28,220
But um, it's just on the policy documents just like yeah, so the uh, but uh, yeah the um
1291
01:33:28,220 --> 01:33:35,340
Um, yeah, why aren't you in oxford? Uh, so that's what that was the first thing they were saying so the all the money if you're in from oxford
1292
01:33:35,740 --> 01:33:42,700
Yeah, yeah, so the um, no, so i'm sure there's something nice about sweden. I just haven't found it. Um, so but the um
1293
01:33:44,540 --> 01:33:48,540
But yeah if you are from one of these sort of areas that are not, you know going
1294
01:33:49,100 --> 01:33:52,220
Not as historically rich or you're practically rich as london
1295
01:33:52,300 --> 01:33:57,420
I think uh now is definitely the time to be talking about it because it will actually help from and hinder
1296
01:33:57,420 --> 01:33:59,420
uh, um
1297
01:34:00,380 --> 01:34:02,380
That we could help run and hinder
1298
01:34:02,540 --> 01:34:06,780
There's certainly no need to I certainly don't think that I can see a need even in the time
1299
01:34:06,860 --> 01:34:09,260
We've been doing this in the time. Yeah, there was a need to basically
1300
01:34:09,660 --> 01:34:11,900
Barrely claim you're somewhere near that, you know the um
1301
01:34:12,620 --> 01:34:19,260
The roundabouts in old street in the middle of london, you know, um hip tech center startup culture world central
1302
01:34:19,820 --> 01:34:23,580
Um, that certainly is changing. It does need to change more
1303
01:34:24,300 --> 01:34:26,300
we still have um
1304
01:34:26,300 --> 01:34:30,940
Both in terms of central funding and private funding this strong this gravitational pull
1305
01:34:31,820 --> 01:34:36,620
Towards london and venture capital in particular and there needs to be more but I think it is changing
1306
01:34:36,700 --> 01:34:42,620
We have the data to show what's happening. It's one of the interesting things that we actually get we can actually see the marvie capital
1307
01:34:43,340 --> 01:34:45,660
Across various parts and we can also see what it's doing
1308
01:34:47,020 --> 01:34:54,140
Um, so it is that is that's something we can do. Um, the other thing is I guess um
1309
01:34:54,140 --> 01:35:01,500
And I guess it's what we can get I suppose but um, and i'm very passionate about it i'm not sure
1310
01:35:02,300 --> 01:35:04,460
sort of related to your question, but um
1311
01:35:06,060 --> 01:35:10,940
I'll run with it. Anyway, so it's sort of an answer to your question that i'm very passionate about so one of the struggles
1312
01:35:12,460 --> 01:35:16,400
That we had when we first started ship shape with classification
1313
01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:23,780
Um, and as an adventure capital world and startup ecosystem
1314
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:27,620
We're addicted to it with sometimes very bad consequences
1315
01:35:28,080 --> 01:35:30,400
So everybody wants it to be a fintech everybody still wants it
1316
01:35:30,480 --> 01:35:36,560
Maybe particularly wants to be a fintech and part of the we work collapse story is we work put itself classified as a fintech and was able to
1317
01:35:37,120 --> 01:35:38,460
justify
1318
01:35:38,460 --> 01:35:42,480
staggeringly unrealistic multiples, but it never it never was a fintech but
1319
01:35:42,480 --> 01:35:47,540
It's but because we the the way that the finance is allocated
1320
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:54,480
Needs these tags these very simple high-level tags. So you're a fintech. You're a medtech. You're a red tech
1321
01:35:54,880 --> 01:36:00,900
So as I said my business partner and I met daniel met and I met in a place which was um doing tax operations
1322
01:36:01,200 --> 01:36:05,840
um automation so is that a regtech is that a fintech because it's
1323
01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:09,280
It's like wait, but you have to be you've got to be one of these and so you need to be one
1324
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:11,600
Whatever which one a big um
1325
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:14,640
And our argument around this is there's the we call it this
1326
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:19,360
The sickness so the sick codes that they're given you have you have
1327
01:36:19,980 --> 01:36:25,440
Thousands of possible codes that can be given out and most startups are just other technology services
1328
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:28,240
You're not actually any of the things that are in there
1329
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:30,880
um, so I think there's a
1330
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,680
So we have this addiction, you know what's top down labels?
1331
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:40,720
Um, and they're seen as needed because we must put out a report that says britain
1332
01:36:41,420 --> 01:36:46,160
Generated this much inward investment into fintech and we're therefore showing that we're a powerhouse
1333
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:50,720
But what it's due to people funneling themselves into their own self-perpetuating label
1334
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:53,780
I was like with which we work can actually have very negative consequences
1335
01:36:54,480 --> 01:36:58,480
What we as ship shake do is the other is looking at the data. So what we um
1336
01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:03,600
Doing as part of a search engine is actually looking at what what a business does
1337
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,600
so when you put in something as you did it being like green hydrogen or large language models or
1338
01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:13,920
Lithium ion batteries or whatever it is like, you know, i'm a startup that has something to do with lithium ion batteries. I want to find
1339
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:19,360
Evidence of investment of other people have done the similar things what we have to do as a search engine is go and find
1340
01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:26,480
portfolio companies of other investors, um, and actually see who's been who has gained investments in a similar sort of space and say
1341
01:37:26,480 --> 01:37:30,720
Well, these are the people invested in them of the of those firms. Here's who's talking about it
1342
01:37:30,720 --> 01:37:35,920
So therefore you've got this evidence trail. Okay, so you're in but I do this you invested in a thing. That's pretty similar
1343
01:37:36,480 --> 01:37:37,360
with
1344
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:42,640
Let's chat and I think you're the right person to talk to because you seem to be the person who's leading the charge on
1345
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:45,520
You know i'm talking about the stuff can we go from here?
1346
01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:49,600
As we said at the beginning you still need to establish a human connection, but that's a good first start in
1347
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:51,920
So we have to look at that. Anyway
1348
01:37:52,080 --> 01:37:56,000
One of the things we spent ages going backwards and forwards and looking at topping modeling techniques
1349
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:58,960
Which are now sort of a reason like that was that was very exciting a couple years ago
1350
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:00,960
I know because of who needs that
1351
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:02,880
not
1352
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:07,680
Not the story person. I'm there. It's the party collective not who needs that but it's not it's not the um
1353
01:38:08,480 --> 01:38:11,840
It's not the acronym that everybody's excited about, you know right now
1354
01:38:12,480 --> 01:38:13,920
um
1355
01:38:13,920 --> 01:38:15,200
but uh
1356
01:38:15,200 --> 01:38:23,040
This the need the overwhelming need to classify is not helpful. What you want to do is if I get the data to be telling you
1357
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:27,760
What is uh, what is this? So if you if you sit there going I want to know
1358
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:33,120
In wales how many businesses, you know have or have got anything to do with you know car park manufacturing
1359
01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:35,600
What we do is come to our search engine
1360
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:39,200
But a car park manufacturing and we can start surfacing all the things that are related to it
1361
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:44,640
And looking and go here are here are all the poor here are the companies that have received investment
1362
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:50,240
That are to do with car park manufacturing and that's a natural consequence of just having to have the data to run a search engine
1363
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:55,600
And it's all publicly available information. There's nothing you're not doing anything malicious
1364
01:38:55,600 --> 01:39:00,800
You're not getting any anybody's secret information or dirty information. You're simply going around looking at people's websites and putting that in it
1365
01:39:01,440 --> 01:39:03,920
good old-fashioned crawling information, but pulling that together
1366
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:06,000
and I think the
1367
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:11,360
The insight that we would like we would have would like to have it is that verticals are bloody useless
1368
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:14,640
They just don't help anybody
1369
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:21,520
Um other than an analyst who was having to put together a report for their boss who insists that there is a vertical
1370
01:39:21,520 --> 01:39:29,040
Um or a treasury official and a nice pro-treasury official who insists there is a vertical in any real sense verticals just aren't helpful at all
1371
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:31,760
at all
1372
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:33,920
So yeah, I guess there's a there's a couple of things
1373
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:38,800
Very yeah, very insightful and and in terms of your platform itself. I mean
1374
01:39:39,840 --> 01:39:45,360
It does a lot right? I I remember playing I I do actually I did actually log in previously to although earlier when
1375
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:48,400
You know, I went on it. I wasn't I have actually been on it
1376
01:39:48,400 --> 01:39:51,520
Um, there's it looks like it can it can do a lot
1377
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:55,360
Obviously, uh, you can you can be quite refined with it as you've said and really sort of
1378
01:39:55,920 --> 01:40:01,600
Hone in on what it is you're looking for. Have you got any sort of um good tips on on on how to get the best results?
1379
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:03,600
out of of using it
1380
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:09,120
I give first of all be be specific. So, um, uh, actually be a founder
1381
01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:12,160
right
1382
01:40:12,160 --> 01:40:17,200
It's a tool for founders. I tell you the people that really struggle using it is somebody who's like this is a sense
1383
01:40:17,200 --> 01:40:22,000
It was really really such an interesting thing. You got a founder. They're coming. They're going what is your business?
1384
01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:24,000
They'll tell you exactly what the business does
1385
01:40:24,080 --> 01:40:27,280
Yeah, put that in and even you could make it a very long phrase
1386
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:32,000
Even if we got it down to just a word put in I do this and just put it in as a search
1387
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:34,640
What you actually do?
1388
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:36,080
um
1389
01:40:36,080 --> 01:40:42,480
The problem for founders, but also they'll speak to like they so maybe speak to advice. I can help you with your raise. What do you?
1390
01:40:43,120 --> 01:40:45,360
What do you do? Fintech medtech martech?
1391
01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:49,680
Right and then you end up with that problem. You're literally just just talking about right
1392
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:56,240
So you can put into our search engine fintech or martech and you'll get everybody who's written the word fintech, you know
1393
01:40:56,240 --> 01:40:59,600
Or had something about fintech doesn't actually help you very much
1394
01:41:00,480 --> 01:41:04,880
So be a founder because founders are much better than the advisors the advisors helping with them
1395
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:09,440
Just go I need you I need you to I can only help you if you're gonna put I want to know you seed series
1396
01:41:09,440 --> 01:41:14,000
I you know and precede I want to know if which which bucket can I put you in?
1397
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:19,440
And then i've got a list of 500 people I speak to i'm gonna spam your pitch deck out those 500 people
1398
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:24,960
I speak to in that bucket, you know, and then hopefully one of them comes back and I can collect I can collect my fee
1399
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:30,400
Um, if you're a founder go no, no, but I need to know someone who actually gets this a good example
1400
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:31,920
um
1401
01:41:31,920 --> 01:41:36,960
Wasn't my business. I worked in this business, but I knew the um, ceo and founder
1402
01:41:38,800 --> 01:41:41,620
Was I worked at a company that did fx connectivity
1403
01:41:41,620 --> 01:41:46,340
um as a and so if you talk to any sort of um vc people about that they
1404
01:41:46,900 --> 01:41:52,900
The direction people doing payments or international payments. It's like you don't get this business is about transferring data
1405
01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:58,260
Accurately in the fastest way possible within a data center and across to another data center
1406
01:41:58,260 --> 01:42:00,100
But particularly within a data center
1407
01:42:00,100 --> 01:42:06,660
You're talking about how to shave shave milliseconds and microseconds of transfer of accurate data transfer so that fx trading can happen
1408
01:42:06,660 --> 01:42:11,860
Um, that's the people who will get this business someone who's doing payments isn't going to understand this at all
1409
01:42:11,940 --> 01:42:16,420
Whereas advisors sits and goes oh, you're you know foreign exchange payments and stuff
1410
01:42:17,460 --> 01:42:19,860
So come in and doing something very very specific
1411
01:42:19,940 --> 01:42:24,420
So you as the founder know exactly what you know who that person who's going to get your business
1412
01:42:24,420 --> 01:42:27,700
You're just you can sit there and read it. So put in a very specific
1413
01:42:28,180 --> 01:42:33,380
Search term one of the earlier things we had and we were like god we got a hit on it was messing kind of stem cells
1414
01:42:33,380 --> 01:42:39,940
It wasn't even stem cell research. It was messing kind of stem cell research, but there's nothing because bugger me. There's actually a result
1415
01:42:41,860 --> 01:42:43,860
So, um
1416
01:42:44,020 --> 01:42:48,660
And it's like yeah, there you go. There's an investor that's actually talking about messing kind of stem cell research
1417
01:42:49,300 --> 01:42:54,740
Not as I said, not just stem cell but mess it's like the two of you should talk. It was when um
1418
01:42:55,540 --> 01:43:00,260
Yeah, because certainly myself and no my co-founder we did a lot of the initial stuff was
1419
01:43:00,260 --> 01:43:03,860
Because we put it out online but a lot of it was doing demo calls with people
1420
01:43:04,660 --> 01:43:07,460
Um, you know getting the favor watching music learning how to use it
1421
01:43:08,100 --> 01:43:13,140
The other thing I could say about at all just specifically, um, and we will do something on this later, but it's not a directory
1422
01:43:14,100 --> 01:43:16,100
So if you want to know, um
1423
01:43:17,060 --> 01:43:19,780
It was this way we on our search bar. I'm looking at my screen
1424
01:43:19,780 --> 01:43:22,760
It starts searching by topic to find investors and investments
1425
01:43:23,380 --> 01:43:27,460
What it's not built for just to be clear is you can't just go and write, you know
1426
01:43:27,460 --> 01:43:30,500
I'll pick one that begins with a so I don't get in trouble antonis
1427
01:43:32,260 --> 01:43:35,460
And it'll do it you will find stuff but it's not built as a directory structure
1428
01:43:35,460 --> 01:43:39,220
We we we all come to that but it's built as a search engine not as a directory
1429
01:43:39,780 --> 01:43:45,380
Yeah, um, so yeah, and that is something um, you know that people people people come out with
1430
01:43:45,940 --> 01:43:48,260
But yeah, it's fine that needle in the haystack
1431
01:43:48,260 --> 01:43:52,260
We had lots of various attempts of trying to explain the idea of finding a needle in the haystack
1432
01:43:52,260 --> 01:43:55,860
You know the what three words of you know, the venture capital words, you know, just
1433
01:43:55,860 --> 01:44:03,860
Get get get not just to the right street, but to the right building. That's the right desk. Yeah, I like that
1434
01:44:05,700 --> 01:44:08,740
That's a nice way of putting it yeah, so so essentially, you know
1435
01:44:09,620 --> 01:44:11,620
You you give it generalist
1436
01:44:12,100 --> 01:44:14,180
Search parameters it will give you general
1437
01:44:14,740 --> 01:44:20,820
Search results, you know essentially yeah in the same ways if you go to and it's it's a way of thinking though that
1438
01:44:20,820 --> 01:44:25,540
It oh you're uh, yeah, they just cut out
1439
01:44:29,940 --> 01:44:33,300
Yeah, my co-founder calls them the slow pods, uh, so they um
1440
01:44:34,420 --> 01:44:41,240
What again what happens when you're driving with the apple glasses on and they well the the car stops on the m25
1441
01:44:43,460 --> 01:44:45,940
Yeah, or just carries on on the m25
1442
01:44:45,940 --> 01:44:49,620
Um, yeah, yeah, well either way is bad, isn't it? Yeah
1443
01:44:50,660 --> 01:44:53,460
So, yeah, what was where were we?
1444
01:44:54,100 --> 01:44:58,980
Um, I was saying about how you know, you give it generalist search parameters it will give you
1445
01:44:59,700 --> 01:45:02,420
Uh general results back but you were saying that um,
1446
01:45:03,060 --> 01:45:04,180
that uh
1447
01:45:04,180 --> 01:45:10,020
I can't remember what you're saying. Yeah, you were I think you were about to make a comparison to to like other search engines essentially
1448
01:45:10,020 --> 01:45:14,660
Yeah, it is a thing. It is a thing. It's it's a thing about so this is why founders are better at it
1449
01:45:14,660 --> 01:45:19,380
Because they just want to get to the answer if someone's generally looking at stuff. I go well, they all start off with a
1450
01:45:20,740 --> 01:45:22,980
This is why I said the industry being stuck in the 90s
1451
01:45:22,980 --> 01:45:26,820
It was fascinating when we started the business people were still thinking in terms of boolean search
1452
01:45:28,180 --> 01:45:33,300
And they were thinking in terms of narrowing that i'm going to a database i'm going to add a data query that filters
1453
01:45:33,780 --> 01:45:36,680
So i'm going to start off with the united kingdom
1454
01:45:36,680 --> 01:45:41,740
Um, then i'm going to put down england or wales or scotland
1455
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:46,280
And then i'm going to put down financial services and i'm going to get this is how people
1456
01:45:46,840 --> 01:45:51,720
Who are using data systems and have used them all their lives come into and that was one of the problems
1457
01:45:51,800 --> 01:45:56,200
We have the search and it was like you just just where you stop telling me narrow down
1458
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:00,600
When you go to look for a restaurant, you don't just go tell me all the restaurants in the uk
1459
01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:03,800
That's a useless thing. You're on a street in the pub. You're hungry
1460
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:07,800
You want to know like I want i want chinese and I am here click
1461
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:15,160
You're trying to find the fastest route to something as opposed to all of the the the the ways of getting there
1462
01:46:15,240 --> 01:46:18,680
You want the the one that goes straight to it? Yeah, whereas the founders when they use it
1463
01:46:18,680 --> 01:46:23,000
And this is why if you look at our usage stats as well, we we target our marketing this way, but it's also
1464
01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:25,320
People who are just I think
1465
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:28,280
I think it's a morality coming up the founders get it because I don't want to know
1466
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:31,640
But again, i'm in the pub. I want a chinese i'm here and I want a chinese
1467
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:37,160
I have no interest in how many restaurants are in the uk. That is nothing to do with my use case whatsoever
1468
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:39,800
I want to I want to know exactly
1469
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:44,600
Uh what I want to say they're brilliant at it because they come in and just go like I need to know about um,
1470
01:46:45,240 --> 01:46:47,400
uh
1471
01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:54,520
These diesel diesel emission reduction technology and they just write that in and yeah, but then results come out
1472
01:46:55,000 --> 01:46:56,600
So well, I mean I can tell you straight off the bat
1473
01:46:56,600 --> 01:47:00,680
I'm going to be using it as a founder of a sas product in stealth currently
1474
01:47:00,680 --> 01:47:05,240
Um that this is going to become very useful in the next few months for for us
1475
01:47:05,400 --> 01:47:08,200
um, so i'm excited to to actually be
1476
01:47:08,600 --> 01:47:10,280
Using it, but I mean, I think even what you said though
1477
01:47:10,280 --> 01:47:13,400
It's still useful for founders who are listening to this who may not have it, you know
1478
01:47:13,480 --> 01:47:19,480
The good good advice on good best practice on how to utilize it and maximize the sort of the results from it
1479
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:22,840
but um, yeah, it's very very it's really uh
1480
01:47:24,040 --> 01:47:27,720
I can see it being quite groundbreaking. I mean, how long has it been when did you launch?
1481
01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:30,200
so we um
1482
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:36,680
Launched like full public version september end of september the 30th last year. Oh really? Okay. Yeah, it's pretty new
1483
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:39,320
Um, we worked we started working
1484
01:47:39,960 --> 01:47:46,040
On the technology so talking about you know support we've been given was fantastic. So we've got an innovate uk grant
1485
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:48,520
in november 2020
1486
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:53,640
And then we also had support from um smart cumry
1487
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:56,760
and a whole series of
1488
01:47:56,820 --> 01:47:58,820
wonderful annual investors and
1489
01:47:58,820 --> 01:48:04,820
Um, also the university of wales trinities and david has been an active supporter and given us some press support as well in swansea
1490
01:48:05,460 --> 01:48:06,980
so, you know just
1491
01:48:06,980 --> 01:48:10,420
Um a lot of support from a lot of people so but we were we were in build mode
1492
01:48:11,380 --> 01:48:12,400
in
1493
01:48:12,400 --> 01:48:14,500
2021 we had basically, you know sort of a
1494
01:48:16,020 --> 01:48:20,340
I'd lovingly call it a beta product, but I think it was you know, even that was was pushing it
1495
01:48:20,340 --> 01:48:23,220
It certainly wasn't mvp, you know was out there but we were
1496
01:48:24,020 --> 01:48:27,620
Pushing that out and seeing even you know, can we sell on beta? You know?
1497
01:48:27,620 --> 01:48:33,780
Can we get connected? Where are we but but out there talking to a lot of people getting a little usage and then
1498
01:48:34,340 --> 01:48:39,860
that formed us into the that was through 2021 and 2022 was getting the
1499
01:48:40,500 --> 01:48:44,180
The product out basically so which we launched in september the 30th
1500
01:48:44,820 --> 01:48:50,340
Last year and then you know, so user numbers increasing roughly 100 a month, which is great
1501
01:48:51,220 --> 01:48:55,780
Coming up so but um, so just just just getting out there and continuous products improvements
1502
01:48:55,780 --> 01:48:58,660
So there is actually a significant um upgrade we're doing
1503
01:48:59,300 --> 01:49:04,180
Uh to the back end so there won't be too much visibility the front end back in next week
1504
01:49:04,740 --> 01:49:06,740
And then the ability to take the
1505
01:49:07,380 --> 01:49:12,180
Uh the data global as well. So at the moment uk data that's on the system
1506
01:49:12,740 --> 01:49:16,120
But as I said, one of the things we're passionate about is that location
1507
01:49:17,540 --> 01:49:21,300
Only matters if you're doing things in an old-fashioned shitty fray and pray way
1508
01:49:21,300 --> 01:49:27,060
Um, you know exactly that you've got something and then uh, you know an investor in
1509
01:49:27,940 --> 01:49:32,660
The west coat of america or sydney australia like this is oh my god
1510
01:49:33,780 --> 01:49:34,980
This is it
1511
01:49:34,980 --> 01:49:40,260
That pick you know, they're talking about these things you can get on the phone and it may be like a really awkward time zone conversation
1512
01:49:40,260 --> 01:49:43,540
Like that's the business like yeah, I get you
1513
01:49:44,340 --> 01:49:45,540
so
1514
01:49:45,540 --> 01:49:47,540
Yeah, the upgrades we're doing
1515
01:49:47,540 --> 01:49:53,060
Next week also expand the data set to be global and we're really excited about that because yeah, that's huge
1516
01:49:53,300 --> 01:49:56,180
Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't tell you I mean you you can
1517
01:49:57,620 --> 01:50:00,740
You can go through a list. I mean there are lists out there floating around you
1518
01:50:00,740 --> 01:50:04,820
That all my linkedin posts is pulled with you know dm me and i'll send you a list of 6 000. Yes
1519
01:50:05,060 --> 01:50:07,060
Yeah, the stuff like that
1520
01:50:08,020 --> 01:50:09,780
but um
1521
01:50:09,780 --> 01:50:14,180
It's actually quite a bit. So why did ship shape not exist before it's also because the growth and scale of
1522
01:50:14,180 --> 01:50:17,380
It was interesting. It didn't come up till now, but it certainly wasn't needed in the noughties
1523
01:50:18,100 --> 01:50:23,700
They just weren't and you didn't need a search and you need a search engine where there's just a sheer number of participants and data
1524
01:50:23,700 --> 01:50:27,460
And available under the network that you're trying to navigate across gets to a certain size
1525
01:50:27,940 --> 01:50:34,500
And it only this only came up in the uk the you know, the the tax change for the s e i s and the c i s and e i s
1526
01:50:34,500 --> 01:50:40,980
framework for the general cultural change of actually acceptance of um startup as a reasonable career to be in rather than some
1527
01:50:40,980 --> 01:50:44,980
Smelly uni students, you know, um did and then they went and got proper jobs, you know
1528
01:50:44,980 --> 01:50:51,060
So this that that cultural change is having this this this this caused this boom in the uk and obviously us was was ahead in that
1529
01:50:51,540 --> 01:50:53,540
But now you've got to the state where
1530
01:50:53,860 --> 01:50:55,860
They're just are um
1531
01:50:56,260 --> 01:51:00,500
Uh, you know a large number of people involved. So if you're talking about like, you know, just people
1532
01:51:01,060 --> 01:51:05,700
On the investment teams of you know investment entity that you'd want to be talking to
1533
01:51:06,340 --> 01:51:09,540
You need to go you're talking about tens of thousands of people
1534
01:51:09,540 --> 01:51:11,540
Tens of thousands of people
1535
01:51:12,020 --> 01:51:16,740
And each one of those investment entities, um has invested over time on average, you know
1536
01:51:16,820 --> 01:51:19,620
Sort of we found it actually funny. It's 16 isn't the average
1537
01:51:20,260 --> 01:51:24,580
So far of the number of portfolio companies per investment entity that we've actually discovered
1538
01:51:25,220 --> 01:51:28,260
And again, the portfolio company is a really important signal because you sit there going
1539
01:51:28,340 --> 01:51:33,460
Okay, this person's talking stuff, but have they actually invested has the company work at invested in anything?
1540
01:51:34,100 --> 01:51:35,620
That's related to me
1541
01:51:35,620 --> 01:51:41,300
um, another thing by the way, ii that well ai will solve in the future, but it's actually too hard to do at the moment is
1542
01:51:41,300 --> 01:51:43,300
the identification of
1543
01:51:43,780 --> 01:51:46,580
maybe i'll solve in the future i may be able to solve that but the
1544
01:51:47,220 --> 01:51:51,460
view the only person who can have a really good view of whether the
1545
01:51:52,980 --> 01:51:56,900
Sorry, let me take this back. You find a company that's been invested in you. Oh, that's really close to me
1546
01:51:57,460 --> 01:52:00,500
You find is investment. You have to decide is that friend or foe?
1547
01:52:01,620 --> 01:52:02,900
Right. Yeah
1548
01:52:02,900 --> 01:52:08,420
Are they too close? Yeah, is there a conflict of interest very subjective that some of it isn't subjective
1549
01:52:08,500 --> 01:52:10,180
Like they actually do exactly the same thing as I do
1550
01:52:10,180 --> 01:52:11,380
That's not subjective in fact
1551
01:52:11,380 --> 01:52:15,860
That's problem because I thought I was the only person doing it in the world and now i've discovered there is someone doing exactly
1552
01:52:15,940 --> 01:52:19,060
The same as me and i'll bugger that is series a last year and i'm still a pre-seed
1553
01:52:19,460 --> 01:52:22,900
You know, that's a problem but more more commonly it's like it's close
1554
01:52:23,940 --> 01:52:25,940
But it's not quite
1555
01:52:26,020 --> 01:52:30,260
And it's the founder who has to make that decision about yeah, i'm actually comfortable sharing my
1556
01:52:30,260 --> 01:52:31,700
data
1557
01:52:31,700 --> 01:52:33,700
and with this person
1558
01:52:34,260 --> 01:52:38,100
but the portfolio company themselves are really strong signals and there's just
1559
01:52:38,580 --> 01:52:46,020
You know, we're talking about six figures worth, you know of portfolio comes to search to you need search technology to actually take you through this
1560
01:52:46,260 --> 01:52:52,020
So we're kind of astounded like, you know, we're out there we're doing it and we're growing this and there's nobody else doing it in this way
1561
01:52:54,020 --> 01:52:59,300
Which kind of astounds us sometimes but on the other hand maybe not because we now know how to do it
1562
01:52:59,300 --> 01:53:01,460
We now know how bloody hard it is to do
1563
01:53:02,500 --> 01:53:06,660
This or the introduction of all this um, coming back to the beginning of the the past
1564
01:53:07,620 --> 01:53:10,900
Would the introduction add to the technologies that are around now?
1565
01:53:11,460 --> 01:53:13,620
Um in terms of generative ai blah blah blah
1566
01:53:14,100 --> 01:53:16,760
Um been around even in 2021
1567
01:53:17,860 --> 01:53:23,540
When we started developing first lines of code for this, you know, would it have meant that we could have turned this around in weeks? No
1568
01:53:23,540 --> 01:53:27,540
Um, it's also to do with my my personal views on moat or not
1569
01:53:27,540 --> 01:53:31,540
There's no such thing as a there are very few businesses that have a single killer moat
1570
01:53:32,180 --> 01:53:39,540
Um, the moat for ship shape is that there are a long series of things that take three days each to do none of which
1571
01:53:40,180 --> 01:53:44,500
Are on their own a moat but the collection of everything that we've done and the integration of it together
1572
01:53:45,700 --> 01:53:47,700
That's that that's the boat. Yeah
1573
01:53:47,700 --> 01:53:53,540
Um, and it's also why it's hard to do and say, you know, we of course we could could do some of these things quickly
1574
01:53:53,540 --> 01:53:55,940
But again going back to the without riffing off going back to the earlier point
1575
01:53:55,940 --> 01:53:59,860
It's not as if co-generation has actually got invented this year like, you know, so
1576
01:54:00,660 --> 01:54:06,020
A lot of this stuff was there before and terraform was there before and kitops was there before and flux was there before and you know, so
1577
01:54:06,740 --> 01:54:09,460
You still have to do the work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
1578
01:54:10,020 --> 01:54:11,460
Yeah, um
1579
01:54:11,460 --> 01:54:13,460
What you you you?
1580
01:54:13,700 --> 01:54:15,700
So you mentioned about how the
1581
01:54:15,700 --> 01:54:18,740
Excuse me how the platform works at the moment. So i'm interested to know
1582
01:54:19,300 --> 01:54:23,940
Um, obviously you're you're that point of being able to point people, you know, essentially a platform can point people the right direction
1583
01:54:23,940 --> 01:54:31,220
You said search results to be able to to to find the individuals that that you would want to ideally connect with as a founder
1584
01:54:31,700 --> 01:54:35,220
Does the platform then is there any way the platform's able to?
1585
01:54:35,780 --> 01:54:38,420
I uh sort of track whether or not
1586
01:54:39,060 --> 01:54:41,860
These these pairings have been you know, uh
1587
01:54:42,660 --> 01:54:44,660
Developed into a platform that's been
1588
01:54:44,660 --> 01:54:50,020
Uh developed into a successful investment. I mean presumably that's now that's now all off platforms
1589
01:54:50,100 --> 01:54:56,260
So you don't you don't have any way of tracking whether or not you're you're making successful introduction or providing results
1590
01:54:56,340 --> 01:54:58,340
Sorry that leads to successful
1591
01:54:58,580 --> 01:55:01,540
Investments or are you somehow managing to do that in another way?
1592
01:55:02,020 --> 01:55:06,420
As we're choosing not to at the moment because we wanted to make it the least
1593
01:55:07,220 --> 01:55:13,060
It's there was no solution we could come up with that didn't feel like an intrusion or asking people to share data
1594
01:55:13,060 --> 01:55:15,060
right, maybe
1595
01:55:15,140 --> 01:55:15,940
a
1596
01:55:15,940 --> 01:55:18,980
There may be a future when there's a recognition that people
1597
01:55:19,700 --> 01:55:24,100
Sharing that data and obviously you have to make it incredibly easy to do or nobody will actually do it or it has to be
1598
01:55:24,580 --> 01:55:27,780
Um signals uh signals to do it so to to come through
1599
01:55:28,260 --> 01:55:30,260
um
1600
01:55:30,340 --> 01:55:32,900
Uh, then you then then you could do that mapping later
1601
01:55:33,060 --> 01:55:38,260
There are there is obviously a way of doing it in the uk sort of because we have this thing called company's house
1602
01:55:38,260 --> 01:55:42,980
Um in the uk even though it's not an exact match because the investment
1603
01:55:44,100 --> 01:55:47,460
You can find invest someone gets introduced to someone as a company
1604
01:55:47,940 --> 01:55:52,580
They don't make the investment then that person moves to a different company that company is actually
1605
01:55:53,220 --> 01:55:59,220
Then makes an investment from that initial investment, but company's house has actually got the name of the lp for example behind it
1606
01:55:59,220 --> 01:56:05,140
Run, and there's a series of even then with company has data. It's not a perfect thing, but globally
1607
01:56:05,140 --> 01:56:11,540
Um, that would be where's the data source to actually do that? But I think in general we decided that
1608
01:56:12,340 --> 01:56:14,340
We didn't want people
1609
01:56:16,260 --> 01:56:18,500
We didn't want people to feel that they're being
1610
01:56:19,460 --> 01:56:22,260
Cracked so the best way to do it was don't
1611
01:56:23,460 --> 01:56:25,460
Like, you know, you can come and use this with freedom
1612
01:56:26,500 --> 01:56:28,180
Yeah
1613
01:56:28,180 --> 01:56:30,820
You know, yeah, and then presumably you would have to in some way
1614
01:56:30,820 --> 01:56:36,260
Um build part of the platform that like you said that essentially traps that entire journey, which yeah
1615
01:56:36,340 --> 01:56:40,580
Would be would would feel intrusive and be a high friction experience wouldn't it?
1616
01:56:40,660 --> 01:56:44,980
But I suppose in some ways it is possible to but only when it has to be demanded basically
1617
01:56:45,220 --> 01:56:48,020
demand rather than us forcing your people needs to be demands like
1618
01:56:48,580 --> 01:56:53,380
Um, basically telling you this is a it's a sales process turning to a crm to see you're putting a crm system on top of right
1619
01:56:53,460 --> 01:56:58,100
Right and then go from there, but people there are serums like from us. I'm simply saying
1620
01:56:58,100 --> 01:57:02,100
Going why what I don't want to be made to use your serum system
1621
01:57:02,420 --> 01:57:06,740
I've either got i've either got one which is excel or hotspot or zoho whatever, you know
1622
01:57:06,980 --> 01:57:10,980
I'm working at a place with lots of money. I might have a sales force one, but I don't want to type
1623
01:57:11,140 --> 01:57:16,420
I don't want to I love the fact that that's still a thing that people say about sales force as well
1624
01:57:16,500 --> 01:57:18,500
Like if you're rich, yeah sales force
1625
01:57:19,140 --> 01:57:20,980
Yeah, but like uh, you can come on to us
1626
01:57:20,980 --> 01:57:24,980
So we we went to this we had we went all the way through the early iterations and just went back going
1627
01:57:24,980 --> 01:57:28,260
But it's why if you look at our thing, it's a search bar. It's a very classic search bar
1628
01:57:28,340 --> 01:57:31,540
Another company may have a search bar that might be bigger than us. There might be a search engine
1629
01:57:31,700 --> 01:57:35,300
I'm not sure if I can name them but search bar in the middle our search bar has even got
1630
01:57:35,380 --> 01:57:38,260
What got rounded edges on the side of a million as a search bar?
1631
01:57:38,900 --> 01:57:41,140
People come onto it. They go that's a search search engine
1632
01:57:41,140 --> 01:57:46,500
That is and you know how easy it is that you just use you you go on you get what you want
1633
01:57:46,980 --> 01:57:48,660
Your service straight away
1634
01:57:48,660 --> 01:57:55,380
That wants to make the you can the user experience as simple as possible for other users lowest low don't put bars
1635
01:57:55,460 --> 01:57:57,460
Don't put barriers in the way of people. Yeah
1636
01:57:57,780 --> 01:58:01,140
It's like you said if you go down the route then of adding a crm and these other elements
1637
01:58:01,140 --> 01:58:05,620
I mean you are straying from what you mentioned at the beginning which was that you know, you're now
1638
01:58:06,100 --> 01:58:11,540
No longer, you know doing one thing extremely well, you're now, you know trying to balance doing two things
1639
01:58:11,540 --> 01:58:18,260
Yeah, well and inevitably that means you don't you end up doing two things mediocre or good but not well
1640
01:58:18,660 --> 01:58:20,820
So you'll focus on this and and I think yeah
1641
01:58:20,820 --> 01:58:23,940
I mean if that's something you want to come back to you then great, but but I suppose that
1642
01:58:24,420 --> 01:58:30,820
The other if I can just riff on that one more point which is um, people who would do that people who are
1643
01:58:31,300 --> 01:58:32,980
you know, um
1644
01:58:32,980 --> 01:58:35,380
Because there's a lot of us I diss some of the better
1645
01:58:35,540 --> 01:58:40,900
We've got a lot of very good advisors that we also know and you know work with and they will refer us
1646
01:58:40,900 --> 01:58:42,900
Because we're not cutting their grass
1647
01:58:44,260 --> 01:58:50,500
So we basically want to be the search and then everybody else is doing that just just use us as the backbone like
1648
01:58:51,460 --> 01:58:54,180
And sure at some point in the future you might decide differently
1649
01:58:54,180 --> 01:58:58,180
But like I don't think we would because hopefully there are enough people just using us and referring
1650
01:58:58,420 --> 01:59:02,820
People through to us that the best commercial thing for us to do is not cut that grass. We just
1651
01:59:03,700 --> 01:59:08,660
Because there are partners in that case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it's interesting like my
1652
01:59:08,660 --> 01:59:15,700
Like my uh, so there was two recent experiences that I had. Um of a great example of of someone trying to do
1653
01:59:16,180 --> 01:59:21,460
Uh, well something claiming it can do lots of stuff poorly compared to something that's just you know
1654
01:59:21,540 --> 01:59:26,740
Consecrate on doing one thing really well. I had uh, so my wife went and bought some we're getting some decking down
1655
01:59:26,820 --> 01:59:30,420
It's not either blokes actually out there today and we have to get it treated and uh, you know
1656
01:59:30,580 --> 01:59:33,540
I was like right, you know when you're going shopping, can you pick up some some uh,
1657
01:59:34,100 --> 01:59:38,500
Some treatment for it and some oil you need the two processes and then she's at the shop and she calls me
1658
01:59:38,500 --> 01:59:43,460
She says oh there's a two in one thing. I was like no don't get a two in one because if because the chances are
1659
01:59:43,780 --> 01:59:49,860
It's going to do both of those things badly compared to to to something. It's yeah, but it's cheaper. It doesn't matter
1660
01:59:50,660 --> 01:59:51,860
I get it
1661
01:59:51,860 --> 01:59:54,420
And the other example of that is actually more software related
1662
01:59:54,500 --> 02:00:00,180
Which is there was this company that approached me recently? Um as is often the case, you know plenty of dms trying to sell me stuff
1663
02:00:00,260 --> 02:00:04,500
whatever, but what caught my eye was that they claimed they could do a
1664
02:00:05,360 --> 02:00:07,700
massive list of things crm
1665
02:00:07,700 --> 02:00:10,200
project tracking invoices expensing
1666
02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:18,440
Like it was basically trello hub spa like all of these tools that I use but in one and I was like well if this is true
1667
02:00:18,840 --> 02:00:25,400
I no longer need about 30 different tools. I'm using this thing can do everything even slack team
1668
02:00:25,480 --> 02:00:28,840
You know everything and I was like this sounds too big too good to be true
1669
02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:33,640
I have to see what this is all about. I jumped on the demo one of the worst demos. I think I've ever been on
1670
02:00:33,640 --> 02:00:40,840
And you know while the product was sort of somewhat impressive it was it was just doing everything
1671
02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:47,480
Badly like they didn't have anything in there that was making me go. Wow, you know, it was a terrible crm
1672
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:52,200
It was a terrible expense tracking. It was a terrible invoice raising. It was all just I mean, you know
1673
02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:55,400
It did the stuff you expected it to do but it wasn't great, you know
1674
02:00:55,800 --> 02:00:58,520
and and and not only that it wasn't helped by the fact that the
1675
02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:04,280
The you know the people who were doing it weren't very good at selling and weren't very good at demoing and all that
1676
02:01:04,280 --> 02:01:08,760
But that that just felt like okay. Well, this is a systemic problem in your company then because of it
1677
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:11,560
You also have not only a generalist products
1678
02:01:11,560 --> 02:01:18,360
But a generalist approach to the people who were in your car as a result. So so now I have no
1679
02:01:19,160 --> 02:01:21,960
Trust in your company's ability to do anything
1680
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:26,440
Well, especially not even the set they said they were going to send me access to a trial account
1681
02:01:26,440 --> 02:01:30,680
That was that was last week. I said, all right, right, you know what I mean? So it's just like
1682
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:34,840
Yeah, so so I I'm I'm on that train do something
1683
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:38,040
Really really really fucking well. Yeah
1684
02:01:39,160 --> 02:01:41,480
Yeah, but uh, it's really exciting
1685
02:01:41,480 --> 02:01:46,520
We're at a time and I know you probably need want to get out of here because I've been chewing your all you
1686
02:01:46,520 --> 02:01:48,520
We've been chewing each other's ear off now for quite a while
1687
02:01:48,520 --> 02:01:53,640
Um, but but really quickly before I do what does the future look like then for you've obviously alluded to a bit bits and bobs
1688
02:01:53,640 --> 02:01:56,840
Of it, but what what would you say the future is for a ship shape?
1689
02:01:57,480 --> 02:01:59,800
Um now looking looking ahead for the next, you know a couple of years
1690
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:02,520
uh, so definitely
1691
02:02:02,600 --> 02:02:05,560
Excuse me. That was poorly timed. Well, I'll just keep it safe
1692
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:09,720
Bless you
1693
02:02:10,680 --> 02:02:18,680
Uh, yeah, uh taking taking this thing global so taking this thing global and just being the known people for as this one thing
1694
02:02:19,080 --> 02:02:21,400
There's lots of other things that will happen off the side of it
1695
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:23,800
but I think that that's not the main focus is
1696
02:02:24,600 --> 02:02:25,640
um
1697
02:02:25,640 --> 02:02:29,720
Uh for us is staying on track basically. So um
1698
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:36,120
Yeah, add us data adds data from various places, you know around the world be the plates where um
1699
02:02:36,120 --> 02:02:40,760
Because what you can't do on a system at the moment for example, you will be able to do very soon is also look at individual pieces
1700
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:42,200
Of funding news
1701
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:46,440
So and again, we just want to be that place and we think we can be that place in the next couple years
1702
02:02:46,520 --> 02:02:48,920
Nobody will come anywhere else other than this because
1703
02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:52,600
If we do it right and we're intending on doing it right and fingers crossed we do
1704
02:02:53,320 --> 02:02:55,320
um because
1705
02:02:55,320 --> 02:02:56,600
We've got
1706
02:02:56,600 --> 02:03:00,460
We've spent this time building a technology foundation
1707
02:03:01,240 --> 02:03:03,240
That can allow us to do so
1708
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:05,560
um, so as long as we
1709
02:03:06,200 --> 02:03:08,200
Build on our own foundations correctly
1710
02:03:10,200 --> 02:03:13,880
But we try as long as we build on our foundations correctly
1711
02:03:13,880 --> 02:03:17,080
We'll be able to produce something that is just a no-brainer for people
1712
02:03:17,080 --> 02:03:21,000
Um, and it's it's a closed ecosystem
1713
02:03:21,000 --> 02:03:25,000
But and I wouldn't I don't know if we're gonna ever be a verb in the way of like googling things
1714
02:03:25,000 --> 02:03:29,000
But i'd like it to be just you know, next couple years. It'd be a no-brainer to do this thing
1715
02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:34,840
People just come to you. They don't think about it. They just come on us and they just shipshape it. Yeah, just shipshape it
1716
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:40,600
Yeah, you've got to start just using the word and then people will like you use it as a verb and then people will
1717
02:03:40,600 --> 02:03:44,920
You know catch on i'll start doing it if you start doing it. Yeah. All right deal
1718
02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:46,520
Yeah
1719
02:03:46,520 --> 02:03:51,320
Yeah, but look I I honestly I think I I could um speak for another two hours on this
1720
02:03:51,400 --> 02:03:53,000
I I would still and you know
1721
02:03:53,000 --> 02:03:55,400
Maybe in future we'll have to get you back on again and you know
1722
02:03:55,480 --> 02:04:00,680
You know as things have progressed to see where things are because if I I would still have in my brain a ton of questions
1723
02:04:00,760 --> 02:04:04,600
About what you guys are doing and would easily get in, you know, really deep in the weeds on it
1724
02:04:04,600 --> 02:04:08,760
But i'm going to let you go. Um, thank you so much for jumping on. I really appreciate it and um,
1725
02:04:09,240 --> 02:04:12,920
And yeah, we'll keep in touch and i'll be following along very very closely
1726
02:04:12,920 --> 02:04:19,160
Um, like I said for my own selfish reasons as well as just being a huge tech startup geek
1727
02:04:20,280 --> 02:04:24,440
So, um, so yeah, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. No, great. Thank you
1728
02:04:24,520 --> 02:04:29,400
Um, it's a very enjoyable time. So um, and I hope that uh, your listeners well be interesting
1729
02:04:29,880 --> 02:04:31,880
Particularly in the beginning part there was um
1730
02:04:31,960 --> 02:04:35,080
All sorts of ideas being bubbled around a little bit by you
1731
02:04:35,080 --> 02:04:39,400
But mostly by me be interesting if you get some comments like that guy's an idiot. What's he doing?
1732
02:04:39,400 --> 02:04:47,400
Yeah, don't worry so far so far comments are as the fact that it's a very young podcast comments limited anyway, but uh,
1733
02:04:48,040 --> 02:04:50,600
If we do get them, I'd imagine it would be mostly about me
1734
02:04:52,120 --> 02:04:55,320
Why are you asking this you had a really intelligent guy and you asked him about that
1735
02:04:55,400 --> 02:04:58,760
What the fuck are you asking for book recommendations? What are you doing? You idiot, you know
1736
02:04:59,080 --> 02:05:05,160
You know the answer have you yeah, I'm not answering your question until you have stated and proved that you have read the hitchhiker's guide
1737
02:05:05,160 --> 02:05:06,760
Yeah, exactly
1738
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:08,760
You're not allowed to comment unless you
1739
02:05:08,760 --> 02:05:12,920
Have some proof. Yeah, and that you went to oxford and you're not from swindon. Yeah
1740
02:05:13,640 --> 02:05:15,320
Yeah
1741
02:05:15,320 --> 02:05:16,680
Have a lovely day
1742
02:05:16,680 --> 02:05:21,320
Okay. Enjoy the weekend. Do you do bye? Bye. Thank you for watching and or listening
1743
02:05:21,320 --> 02:05:38,680
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