WEBVTT
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My background is an HRBP.
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I've worked with that now for about fifteen years.
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I started to research is it really true that we don't have anything where employees can build the most valuable benefits package for them for a budget that already exists?
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And six months after we couldn't find anything that was suitable for the Swedish market, and I couldn't find that product for that hole in the market either.
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I need to try.
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It may go to, but I have to try.
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A lot of founders think they know the problem, but if they're not intimately involved with the problem that they're solving, there's nearly always something that they haven't thought about, and that can be the difference between success and failure.
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And it came to a point where I felt like we were going too slow.
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And I was like, we need that little bit of a fire with someone that knows what it's like going to market because I've never brought the product to market.
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Today I got our very first email that our very first client is gonna prolong their contract for another year.
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We're doing something right.
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A client that we signed four months ago, they trust us to expand to a market I know nothing about.
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Hi, I'm James Green, co-founder of DQ Ventures.
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If you're an experienced professional thinking about starting your own business, then please listen to this before you quit.
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And the reason we're doing this is because a lot of the the uh startup content that you consume online is produced by venture capital investors or the founders of companies that have gone on to become a unicorn.
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But unfortunately, that doesn't represent 99% of businesses and business owners.
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And the likelihood is it doesn't represent you either.
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Today's founder is Caroline Sandchrist, who by sheer coincidence is based in Stockholm, the same as me.
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She was exploring all sorts of accelerators, uh funding providers, and ended up working with us at DK Ventures.
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Uh I think her main reason for that was that she, even if she had been given money, she wasn't really sure what to do with it.
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And she wanted to work with people who'd started businesses before and had an idea of the path that she should take.
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So without further ado, let's hear from Caroline and uh and see what she has to say.
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Something that I see all the time is that most companies think that a high-budget wellness allowance and complex bonus structures is going to win great people over.
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But after 15 years in HR, what I can tell is that what employees actually care about is not the wellness allowance per se, but benefits that they can tailor after their different life stages.
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So not a one-size-fit-all package.
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And the problem that I saw in the market was that there wasn't really a benefits platform that was truly built for people, but also admin smooth for payroll.
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And this is exactly why I built Clever Benefits.
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I'm Caroline, the founder and CEO of Clever Benefits.
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And if you're ready to truly attract and keep brilliant people through meaningful benefits, you can visit us at cleverbenefits.com.
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I am very happy to be joined by Caroline Sandqvist, who is the founder of Clever Benefits.
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And she's uh part of our DQ Ventures portfolio and building a SaaS company here where I'm based as well, in Sweden, uh in Stockholm.
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So Caroline and I are rare exceptions that we actually meet in person from time to time, uh, which is nice.
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Another thing that makes Caroline a bit unique is that when she came to us and we were when she first discovered us, which I think was via LinkedIn, wasn't it, Caroline?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That she already had a software platform built because she has a co-founder and uh he works diligently behind the scenes to bring the platform to uh reality, while Caroline is focused more on the content of what the company does and the business development.
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So welcome, Caroline.
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Thank you for being part of our humble little podcast.
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Thank you for having me.
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Caroline, the reason that we we record these podcasts is that 99% of podcast material out there that talks about startups is recorded by less than 1% of founders.
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And so we wanted to record podcasts with people who are building real businesses the hard way.
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Not that raising venture capital is not hard, it's incredibly hard, but it's just not for most of us.
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Uh and so we're trying to bring real stories.
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So if anyone's out there who's thinking about quitting their job and starting a company, that they get the real inside story, inside track on what it's really like and what some of the the unknown unknowns might be.
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Yeah, I think that's really useful because obviously not everyone can be the people that gets written about in papers on on Forbes list or or whatever.
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It's a very few percentage up there.
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Exactly.
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And a lot of the people that apply to DQ assume that they are going to be the one that ends up in TechCrunch and uh that raises millions of dollars and exits for many millions more, but that sadly that's just not the reality for 90, 99% of the founders.
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Yeah, but but you don't need to you don't need to be in Forbes to have a great business.
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My brother sells yachts for a living, and he said that apart from the occasional Formula One driver, most of their customers are people you've never heard of who have built big businesses that have never really been written about.
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I want to talk about the the problem that you're that you're solving and give give us a little intro to what that is.
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But what what I'm most interested in is that what happened?
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What was that moment where you were working in your job and you just thought, do you know what?
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I'm gonna go and build my own company, and this is why.
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What was that moment for you?
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That moment was actually when we were trying to find a product that we couldn't find at our current job.
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So my background is an HRBP.
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I've worked with that now for about 15 years and actually still still am.
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It's still the things that pays my bills until until Clever will hit off and be able to pay my bills.
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But when I was done working in-house, we were an international tech company, it was in the middle of COVID, and salaries were just spiking, and we're like, we it's not sustainable for us to follow in this salary rate.
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So, what can we do in terms of compensation to keep being attractive and for uh candidates to choose us, but also to uh to keep employees because we were seeing an employee turnover rate of like 25, even 30 percent, and everything was going to go remote, and you saw this big shift for employees, like what's in it for me.
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So you needed to make that mindset change.
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Um, but also the the difficulties is that you were operating in different countries with different legislations and different tax legislations around employee benefits, and so we were trying to unlock the set benefit packages that we had and see if employees could swap one benefit for another if they saw a bigger value in another benefit, depending on where they are in their lives today.
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We could find something that was suitable for the UK, we found something that was suitable for Spain, which was the two biggest countries that we had employees in.
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But then we had Sweden.
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And as soon as we started to talk about Sweden and Nordics in general, it was a hard no.
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The platform's like, no, we can't do it, we're not gonna do it, it's too complex, we don't understand the market with benefit taxation, et cetera, et cetera.
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It ended up with that company purchasing a platform, I still have to call it, but I would say a glorified Excel for lots and lots and lots of money, and it was never launched to the employees.
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So they signed like a two-year contract and was never launched to the employees because they couldn't get the calculations right, even in the markets that they were actually operating in.
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And that was like an aha moment for me.
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And we have other benefit platforms in Sweden, but I started to research is it really true that we don't have anything where employees can build the most valuable benefits package for them for a budget that already exists.
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And I couldn't find it.
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And then I was thinking about like the rest of the HR landscape.
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We've seen so many new HR IS platforms coming in for the smaller companies, you have all of the engagement and survey uh platforms, and you have all of the learning and development platforms uh coming on.
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So we've seen lots of digitalization all around in the HR space, but nothing has happened on the benefit side.
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And I was just going with this thought, and for years and years and years, when I was working as an HRBP, I had this feeling that's like I should run my own company, but I didn't know in what.
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And six months after, we were like, we couldn't find anything that was suitable for the Swedish market, and I couldn't find that product for that hole in the market either.
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I was like, I need to try.
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It may go to shit, but I have to try.
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And I at least I've tried.
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So that was like the moment rather than decided, like, I need to do this, and then we'll see what happens.
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Wow.
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So, how how did you then tackle that?
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You know, what was the next step?
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You you never built a company before, uh, you you'd not build software before, you knew what you wanted.
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Well, yeah, what did you what did you do?
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What did you you do first?
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I mean, obviously, the very first thing for me was to like since I could be the customer of this product, it was quite natural for me.
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It's like if I would be to to buy this for my company that we wanted to buy, but we couldn't buy, what would it look like?
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And what would be crucial for me?
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Uh so then it's like it needs to be the user experience, it has to be all of the settings in the background, making sure that it's tax compliant, making sure that it's GDPR compliant, etc.
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etc.
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There's lots of different variables.
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So I started thinking about like what would this product look like for me if I was to buy this?
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And then obviously you have an HR network.
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So I started to talk about this, and I was like, I'm thinking about building this.
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If you were to buy what what would you have wanted it to look like?
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What would be really important, etc.
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So that was the first thing to basically design the product because that is what's closest to me to even select who would buy this if I'm offering it.
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I think that's quite common, you know, that most people lean towards a product.
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It's the exciting part, it's the creative part.
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So you're definitely not alone.
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But in your case, you you were the buyer.
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And I think that's a big advantage.
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Yeah.
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And I also think like I kind of did those like inofficial user interviews when I was like talking to other HR people.
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Uh, probably gonna talk about it later on when we joined DQ.
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That's what you do first is user interviews, but I didn't have any documented, super structured, etc.
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But I've still talked about it, but it's one thing talking about it, and people say, Oh, yes, it's a great idea to someone that's actually buying the product.
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Yeah.
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But step number two was I don't have hundreds of thousands of set to spend on a developer.
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So I need someone to build this for me.
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I was then looking around with people I have worked with before.
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I also wanted someone that had a little bit of that like business mindset, understand what it means building a business and someone that's ready to give up like even weekends because most likely in this age that we are now, we have bills to pay and we have mortgages.
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And so you can't just like jump into something 100% and quit your job and not being able to know how you're gonna survive next month.
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So I reached out to a developer that I had worked with um eight years previously.
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So so we had worked at the same job, and I talked about the idea, and then I said, Do you want to build this with me?
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And he said, Yes, I want to build this with you.
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And then and then that's how we started the company, and pretty early on, we created the company for like for the official documentation and shares and and stuff like that.
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So so all of the papers would would be in order, which is pretty early, but we were also just like not friends, friends, even though we had worked together for for a few years.
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We don't do that, we don't start a company until until later, but but I think it's quite quite a natural thing for you to do in your situation.
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Definitely working with co-founders can be fraught with trouble and uh issues and misalignment.
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Even when you've worked together, that can happen.
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But uh but in your case, because you had worked together before, it's not that not such a big risk.
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Just for anyone listening, by the way, SEC is the the acronym for Swedish krona, uh with like like USD is for US dollars.
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You started a company, you issued your shares, you you got started, you designed the product, uh, Kevin started building.
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Yeah.
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What happened then?
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Um and where and when did you realize that this was not going to be as easy as you thought, or that maybe you needed some help?
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I think a big realization for both myself and Kevin is that we probably need to be accountable for someone else.
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So we're built for a long time.
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And I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, which is also not great because you need to ship a product and just test it out.
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But at the same time, I was like, if we don't have GDPR stuff in place, no one's gonna buy anyway because we're gonna deal with personal data and people's salaries and stuff like that.
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We need to we can't have too low of a minimal standard because then we won't sell.
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So I think we took about like one and a half year before I even started talking about the product and trying to then sell it because I thought it was like now it's good enough, and I can stand for that.
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I know that we are GDPR compliant, um, etc.
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Just to jump in there, that there's there's a ton of wannabe founders or aspiring founders who who are thinking, all I need is to find a tech co-founder and everything will be fine.
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I think this is quite an interesting insight that there's a couple of couple of issues.
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One is just because you've got a tech co-founder doesn't really speed you things up because the the thing that holds you up the most generally is not the product, it's getting the customers.
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Yep.
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But but having uh a tech co-founder means that you can feel busy.
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You can feel you can spend ages like on where's that button gonna go, what's the flow?
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And it's and it's fun.
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I I've done it myself.
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It's you know, wireframing and working out what how the user experience is gonna flow is great.
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But the trap is that it takes a long, long time, and you build from your brain and from your imagination rather from real market feedback.
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Yeah, and so by the time you launch, you've spent 18 months.
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It it happens more quickly now with with AI, but it still can be a long time getting things right.
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And you're building the way in isolation, and then you bring something to market, and then you realize all the things that you should have you should have known when you by starting to speak to customers.
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Yeah, exactly.
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From what I told Kevin to build when it comes to what flows and how reporting needs to work and all the GDPR setups and stuff like that, to then what our customers has actually bought today hasn't changed.
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I think really strength with being a buyer building the product.
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Um, I was quite realistic in what was needed, but since I also was very realistic what was needed, it took us longer because I wasn't, this is not good enough.
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This needs to be stronger, I can't sell this.
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I'm also quite an honest person, and I sometimes that's a really good thing because you build credibility and you build trust and you build relationships, but sometimes you need to be a little bit of a hustler and you need to promise the world and fix it afterwards, and sometimes I can struggle with that balance.
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Yeah, that's I mean, that's an interesting one.
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I'm like you, I believe honesty is the most important uh faculty to have, but uh there there is always an element of of sell it, then build it.
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But but I I also agree completely that you were the buyer, and that is a big reason why we wanted to work with you was because a lot of uh a lot of founders think they know the problem, but if they're not intimately involved with the the problem that they're solving, there's nearly always something that they haven't thought about, and that can be the difference between success and failure.
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So for us, you were you were spot on.
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Uh and uh this is definitely not intended to be an advert for DQ, but but more from a kind of uh a what's missing point of view.
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What attracted you to us when you when you saw us on LinkedIn?
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And what was it that you thought, God, do you know what this was this part's not working, I could really do with help here, that maybe you didn't think at the beginning, that other people might be thinking that they they know, but they're they're gonna find out that it's much more difficult than they than they realize.
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Yeah.
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So in my early, early career, I was an account manager, lifting up the phones, doing cold calls, getting rejections and stuff like that.
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And I 100% had a little have a little bit of PTSD when it comes to that time because I don't have a very positive view of sales, to be honest.
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And I remember in our first conversations as well, you're like, what are you gonna struggle with?
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And I'm gonna struggle with sales, which is not great.
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Because we're because we're not gonna have a business if I can't sell my own business.
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It's uh it's as simple as that.
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But I think it came, I I think I followed you for over a year before I contacted you and DQ, and it came to a point where I felt like we were going too slow.
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And I was like, we need that like a little bit of a fire with someone that knows what it's like going to market because I've never brought the product to market.
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I have my perceptions of sales that are completely wrong to what I was selling 15 years ago, to what I will sell now.
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And I realized like, how will we get there?
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It's probably the best for us that we get other people in with various expertise in their different areas to support us in that journey.
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I really reasonated with the DQ way of that not everything has to be super quick.
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You don't have to quit your job.
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We understand you have commitments.
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You rather speak from the point of view don't quit your job because most businesses fail, and we don't want you to leave a great full-time job, but we still want you to commit and we still want to know that you're serious with this.
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And then, of course, I checked out the team, what you've done before, what type of different expertise you had.
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You've all built businesses and sold businesses.
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But what were your strengths when you were building your business?
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And I felt that your team was complimenting both me and Kevin, and that's uh that's when I reached out to basically the go-to-market um strategy because we had the product.
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I was like, how do I ship this?
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I've got a uh a friend in Singapore who's who runs a VC fund, and I mean he says many times, and I have many conversations with him, where he'll ask people, What do you think is the most important thing about a business?
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And and they aren't people say product or customer service or funding or whatever, but he always says no, he always says noes to everything, and he says it's always sales.
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He and I have invested in a lot of businesses, and nearly always the reason that you don't get the outcome you want is that the company just couldn't sell as well as they hoped.
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Or well, I mean, it's not necessarily about salesability, it's about how much do people want the thing that you're offering.
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And like you were saying right at the beginning, there's a big difference between telling someone in a Chat without I'm building something, what do you think?
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Or I'm building this, what would you want it to look like?
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People are nice, they're gonna say nice things, they're gonna say, Oh, yeah, you should, you should do it.
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And your friends, I mean, I think this is one of the most ironic things in startup world.
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If you tell your friends that uh that you're thinking about quitting your job and going and starting a company, they'll probably say, Yeah, go for it.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:24.319
What could what could go wrong?
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:27.440
It's like it's the worst thing that you could say to somebody.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:29.759
It's like, yeah, a lot can go wrong, actually.
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.920
So they should be saying, Don't quit.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:37.039
You know, find someone who knows what they're talking about, and get some advice and take it, take it slowly.
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:38.319
Don't give up your income.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:47.039
Because I mean, as you've found, that it takes a lot longer than than you expect to be able to pay yourself a uh a salary like you're used to earning from your own business.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:55.039
I'm interested to know when you reached this point, did you you obviously we were connected on LinkedIn and and so I was posting a lot in those days.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:56.799
Were there other things that you were considering?
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:09.359
Like did you look at at uh accelerators or did you try and raise money or or we never tried to raise money because I mean, obviously, you follow Dragonston and and all of that.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.119
Like we had a product, we didn't have any customers at that point.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:18.880
I was like, we're gonna have to give up half of the company for peanuts, and I was like, not interested.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:30.000
There is other companies in Spain and in France that have uh raised millions of euros and like they've grown so fast in five years.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:32.400
And obviously, that is like a little bit of like a trigger.
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:37.119
It's like, okay, there is something here in the Spanish market.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:44.559
Yeah, can I translate that to the Swedish or the Nordic market that looked completely different as well?
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:51.920
You you can't have a Swedish product and launch that in Spain because they're not gonna buy it, uh, because they have their tax regulations, etc.
00:23:52.319 --> 00:24:02.240
It gave me the strength to see like we do have a culture shift when it comes to compensation and benefits packages and stuff like that.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:08.079
And it's been invested in as like a future product in other markets.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.240
Could that be the same for Sweden?
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.960
Obviously, you never know, but I wasn't interested in looking at capital then.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.960
I did look at some accelerators and stuff like that.
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:24.480
Um obviously, they are also gonna have shares, you're always gonna have to to give up shares.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:29.920
But the difference here was it's like they want you in 100%, they want you to do the business 100%.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:35.680
And neither me or or Kevin was just not there.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:40.400
Um with with the life circumstances that that we have.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.160
We're not 20, 25 years old anymore and can move back home.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:50.079
So that's where we found DQ being a better cultural option for us.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:51.920
Yeah, I mean that's why we started it.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:03.279
I I think uh YC, I think the I think the first thing you read on the YC website, or it certainly was at one point, is that uh if you're not all in, then why are you bothering?
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:05.599
And uh they're only interested in people who are all in.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:09.359
And that's that's the predominant attitude across the startup world.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:27.279
Uh and we started DQ because we felt that that just discounts the majority of founders who just don't have that freedom and flexibility to do that, or certainly more experienced founders who the statistics show are more likely to succeed because they actually know know something and have learned something.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.480
Yeah, the whole de-risking thing is is a big uh a big uh focus for us.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.119
But that's not to say that we can't raise capital.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:51.599
I I think I agree with you that raising capital on day one is generally a bad idea unless you've already built yourself a startup and you've got a track record and people are willing to invest millions of dollars for a small stake because they already know that you're the very likely to do it again.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:52.079
Yeah.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:26:02.000
But for most people, you one A, you probably won't be able to raise money, and B, you probably shouldn't, because you don't know if it's gonna succeed either.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:10.400
And and I can speak from experience that there's no worse feeling than realizing your business isn't gonna work when you've taken millions of dollars of people's money.
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:15.519
And you've got to make those phone calls and tell them that uh it's not gonna work and that you can't pay them back.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:23.920
I think you're doing exactly the right thing by building traction, building uh conviction in your own product before you think about scaling.
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:34.960
And then you've got the option to pour fuel on the fire and potentially raise some capital to do things faster, quit your job if you if you want to, and and and so on.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:39.359
But I like I really like your your way of uh of approaching clever.
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:45.359
That remember one of our recent chats, you were saying that yeah, I've I've got plenty of time, I'm not rushing this.
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:52.240
Uh we've got some customers, they're happy, it's going well, but I'm not rushing to quit my job for this.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:59.200
And uh I'd much rather build my own conviction uh that this is gonna work before before taking that leap.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:01.039
Uh and I think that's sensible.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:01.839
Yeah.
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:04.319
You still you still thinking the same thing?
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:18.240
Yeah, and uh actually uh today I got our very first email that our very first client is gonna prolong their contract for another year, which means that our very, very first client are happy with us.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:20.960
They want to continue, we're doing something right.
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:32.000
We have talked about like we need to nail Sweden, then we'll maybe have a look at Nordics because it's natural for our businesses to have to have operations in in nearby countries.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:37.279
A client that we signed four months ago, we've gone live in Sweden.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:45.680
They are now like, we want to launch in Norway, let's set up uh a call with our accountants to make sure that we get all of the tax regulation right.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:57.039
So now all of a sudden, we can look at it's like we're doing that good of a job in Sweden that they trust us to expand to a market I know nothing about.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:59.599
And I've been a hundred percent honest with them.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:06.240
It's like I've never worked with Norway, I have no idea about Norway, we need help from your accountants, and they still invest that.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:07.359
That's awesome.
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:13.519
So those receipts for me is just like continue building clients.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.440
They are gonna want to stay with us.
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.400
We are doing a good job, we are doing something right.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:22.640
Okay, let's take a quick break and hear from one of our portfolio companies.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.599
Hi, I'm Rachel, and I'm the founder of Journey.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:39.680
Journey began when I had to fly back from the UK with my three children under the age of four by myself with a two-month-old baby, and I realized that it was something I didn't think I could do alone without an extra pair of pants.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:47.440
I posted an ad on Facebook looking for a companion or somebody who could help me, my children, and it went viral.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:54.880
I had thousands of people comment, respond, message me, and media outlets reaching out to run a story on me.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:59.519
And that's when I realized that this was a problem that was more widely spread than just me.
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:05.759
We launched Journey in June 2025, and since then we've had more than 50 journeys that have completed.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:17.119
The thing I'm most excited about is getting more people matched together so that more people can travel the world, do the things they want to do, see the people they want to see, and not be held back by the challenges of the client.
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:22.480
Can you think of a specific moment along the way where you really didn't know what to do?
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:33.599
You lent on the people around you to solve a problem that you they weren't sure how to solve, or maybe there was you were really stuck with something and you managed to get unstuck.
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:36.319
I've probably got one or two things that I can think of.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:42.000
But for you, I I'm interested to know what what was there where you were like, Oh, I'm so glad that we managed to solve that.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:48.720
For me, it's most about like my impatience, maybe.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:49.680
Yeah.
00:29:53.200 --> 00:30:08.000
Even though I have like a full-time job and uh you have commitments in that, and I have clients there, there is still a part of me that is very much like 100% clever is gonna be my future.
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.400
Clever is the company that is gonna pay my bills, I'm gonna work with 100%.
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:17.680
I am convinced that one day we're gonna hire our first employee.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.440
That's not the founding team.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.599
I do see a future for clever.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.559
And then I want to run faster.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:34.079
Obviously, when you have a founding team, it doesn't matter how well you get along, you're gonna have different ways of working.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:41.519
And sometimes my ways of working haven't aligned with my co-founder's way of working, and I've been frustrated.
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:47.279
And I was like, this is going too slow, this is doing this, this is doing that, etc.
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:58.960
But at the end, it's come to the acceptance that as long as we get things done in deadline for our clients, it doesn't matter how we get there.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:00.400
Yeah.
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.000
Well, I I've got co-founders, as you know, and we all work very differently.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:11.839
Um, and certainly there's there's always gonna be certain frictions, and there's gonna be times where you see things differently.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:20.079
But I think making feel that you work with people that you respect and that you trust, uh you can pretty much get through anything.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.200
And also people that that can keep their sense of humour.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:36.240
Because there's there's gonna be times where someone loses their shit and uh uh and goes off and sulks, and uh there's nothing like a bit of teasing to snap someone out of a bad mood rather than uh everyone getting too serious about it.
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:43.440
I've had a few co-founders over the years of very different personalities, but they've all been people that I really trusted and respected.
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:46.480
So they all they all ended well, uh those businesses.
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:49.359
Whether we sold them or or we shut them down.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:54.319
I'm still talking to all of those people as far as I can remember.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:54.880
Yeah.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:59.680
Well, so that's something that that you probably knew about yourself already, that you've been impatient.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:04.880
What's something that you that you've that you've learned about yourself through this process?
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:19.839
I think that through my like employment years, I've always seen myself as very independent and I get shit done, and I'm super fast, and I just like just give it to me and I will source it out.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:20.640
Here you go.
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:27.359
Running your own business, I have realized that I thrive the most around people.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:28.480
Yeah.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.880
It can be quite lonely, can't it, being a founder?
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:32.240
Quite lonely.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.680
My best ideas come from when I speak to people.
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:37.839
It doesn't have to be a customer.
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.960
It can it can be Kevin that's my technical co-founder, or you and me sit down and speak.
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:49.599
But I've realized that if I'm isolated and I'm alone, I'll get nothing done.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:50.480
Really?
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:55.599
I yeah, and but I was one who's like, just give me a task and I will get it done.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:01.119
But I was also part of a context, even though I was working independently, I was part of a team.
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:04.559
That's really interesting.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:16.240
You had like three team meetings that week, and then you could talk about things, and all of a sudden you got a solution for that problem you were working on, and you took in other people's perspective.
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:28.640
Uh, but when I'm then gonna develop my product, or we're gonna talk about something, or I've given something, I've given something bigger to Kevin, he's like, Oh, it's gonna take me three weeks to do this, okay, okay, fine.
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:41.599
Then I get nothing done for those three weeks because I'm not speaking to Kevin unless he's got a blocker, because I leave him alone to build what we have agreed to build, or whatever our customer has has requested from us.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:51.359
Um, so for me, it's the the team and the interaction that I'm a lot more dependent on than what I thought in the start.
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:58.880
How I've never heard that insight before, and I can so resonate with that, or uh it really resonates with me.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.599
And I think just trying to distill that down.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.839
I a lot of people who become founders are doers.
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.880
I think I feel like I'm a doer and get stuff done.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.840
But there's a very big difference between doing and being motivated to do.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:27.760
Like if you're uh so if you don't have someone holding you accountable, and especially you know, you're working from home, like I'm at home now, I'll just go and make a cup of tea, and then I'll flick through the paper or the distractions of the mobile phone these days.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:32.000
You can burn scrolling through yeah, exactly.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.800
So there's always something to find to that that you can do.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:44.480
And like you say, that that's a there's a big difference between feeling like you're gonna get stuff done and actually getting stuff done.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:44.960
Yeah.
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.480
So I'm glad that we've uh that we've been able to help with that.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:59.760
And uh I'm gonna try and uh try and think about that more because that's something that most people probably wouldn't think think of, especially if they have if they think of themselves as someone who really gets stuff done.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:01.920
Yeah that might come as a surprise.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:32.320
Yeah, and I've always been there, but I can genuinely say the last six months of our platform, since we're collaborating more closely with our clients now that we have on board, we've got more done because number one, we know what they want, and two, I'm accountable to deliver it to them, which then also makes Kevin more motivated because he knows we're also shipping stuff that our clients really want instead of me sitting guessing what we want.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:46.960
And I think that has really since since we got our customers in, that's really pushed our speed um as well because we are accountable to to someone and to make sure everything is right as well.
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:54.239
As you know, I like our process, we like to get a customer before we build a platform.
00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:06.159
And um and I I think I'm not thought of that as being an advantage, but um certainly having somebody expecting something makes you makes you move quickly, as well as making sure you're building the right stuff.
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:08.320
So that's that's yeah, that's good.
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:18.480
Knowing what you know now, if you went back and transformed yourself or transported yourself back into your former self where you're sitting there thinking, oh, you know what, I should build this myself.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:23.760
What would you say to yourself that uh to give yourself some advice?
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.679
Like it could be don't do it, or it could be uh remember this.
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.039
What would you say?
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:52.239
I would say allow allow time and don't stress, because obviously you get the newspapers and and all of the articles of lovable founders and whoever else that raises billions, uh, and you see all of the success stories, and of course you want to be part of that.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.199
It's like it's a dream, but will you ever get there?
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:01.840
Most likely not, um, because that's the reality.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:09.440
If you make it, you're you're one of thousands, hundreds of thousands uh that's ever starting to build a business.
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:21.440
And when I started everything, I wanted it to be super quick, and I was like, within six months to one year, I'm gonna have to resign and we're gonna be super successful, and this is gonna go into all of that.
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:27.840
Like, it takes longer time than that, and you don't need to be up yourself because it is taking longer.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:36.800
It's better to have a sustainable business that clients actually want, even if it takes longer time.
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:42.800
Isn't there a saying that it takes seven years for a like a normal business to be profitable?
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:47.760
And we're three years down the line from where we started building.
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.960
So we have four years to go before you make that average mark.
00:37:53.360 --> 00:38:16.960
I mean, the first thing you're basically saying to yourself, don't quit, because this is gonna take a long time and you don't have the funds in the bank to support that journey, which we say to people all the time, but people ignore us constantly and go and quit, and then they end up burning through their savings or or realizing their savings are gonna burn out and then try to get a job when they've half-built their software product that never sprung to a customer.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:20.239
It's a great way to burn through your life savings and not achieve anything.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.280
I mean, if there's anyone out there in that position, please don't quiz.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:25.519
But also hold down costs.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:29.119
How can you do uh how can you build as cheap as possible?
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:36.400
Obviously, a big advantage for us is that I had a technical co-founder that is investing his time in building all of this.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:48.719
But everything we've we've built on, we tried to get software for free, like we've joined startup programs and stuff like that, so we don't need to pay for lots of licenses and trying to be smart with the money you spend.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:53.039
I think on average, since we started, we've spent$50 a month.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:58.400
And you can afford to spend$50 a month building your business if you have the right competence.
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:02.000
Obviously, that's a different story if you don't have a technical co-founder.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:08.880
Try and find a way and a team, and you have partners to do that, and that's also why you exist.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:13.519
But how can you hold down down costs so you don't burn your life savings on it?
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:15.119
Be smart with money.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:17.679
Well, I I know I know at least one person.
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:19.360
Well, I know two people actually.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:34.559
Uh, one I know pretty well, he spent$100,000 of his own money building a software platform that never got a single user because he had the money and he found a company and they built it and didn't do any go-to-market or any any uh user interviews.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:40.719
I know another guy, I only met him once actually in Singapore, but he'd spent half a million of his own money.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:56.800
So clearly a wealthy guy, and and he what he actually said to me is uh he was trying to raise money for and I was investing in those days, and he said, I'm raising money because I just want to build a couple more features, and then I know we'll get custom get users.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:05.679
And I was just thinking, this is what he's done, he's just added features, thinking that's what drives customers, but actually it's not, it's it's talking to customers and finding out what they want.
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:23.039
And the other point I would make about that is that I mean, software development agencies are gonna hate me for this, but if you find a software development company to build your product and you say, I want all of this, then and I've got the money to pay for it, then they're gonna build all of that.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:28.400
I mean, the good ones will make it better, but they're still gonna spend your money.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:34.320
Whereas what you really want is someone who's got as much incentive not to spend money as you have.
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:45.599
Uh, and so there are ways, especially now, there are ways to fake it uh or to build a true MVP for peanuts.
00:40:46.239 --> 00:41:07.519
Uh you just gotta find the right people to build it with you, maybe get them so that they're aligned at some kind of success-based reward, but don't just go and blow your money on on someone who you think is good, because uh if if their business is based on hours and uh work done, then they're gonna spend hours and they're gonna build your for them.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:15.199
So, yeah, you you you're quite unusual that you you got Kevin, and that is a major bonus um for you.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:22.239
But it's it's good for us as well, obviously, because we didn't have to worry about building the product um and uh and funding that as well.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:37.519
My other question was it like when you meet people now, and I bet you I bet this happens that you're you go to a conference and you meet someone and you say, Oh, actually, I've I've started my own company, and and they say, Ah, do you know what I'm thinking about starting my own company?
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:39.679
Well, what's the one thing you say to them?
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:45.119
I mean, maybe it's the same, that it's gonna take a long time, but what do you find yourself telling people?
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.719
It's probably the say the second thing that I would tell myself, be out and about.
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.960
You need to let people know that you are building.
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:57.840
You need to let people know what you are doing.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:02.719
Obviously, I'm still HR consulting and I'm reliant on getting new clients.
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:08.400
I talk a lot about pay transparency because that's uh that's what I'm working with in my day job.
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:16.000
And I need to talk about my other business the same way because if I don't talk about it, how are they even going to know that it exists?
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.920
For me, selling, and we've talked a lot about this, James.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:26.719
Like I do my very best when I'm at smaller networking events, 30, 50 people.
00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:36.639
It shouldn't be like the big tech arena or or whatever with thousands of people, because I don't want to approach people that way.
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:50.239
I want to be in a smaller room where I know a couple of people, you get introduced to another person, and then the words start start uh start building, yeah, and and uh spread.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:43:09.360
And then I have seen since I started writing more about clever on LinkedIn and letting that network that I've actually built on there, knowing that I'm doing this as well, I have got incoming leads that I didn't get before.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:14.960
And it's incoming leads I would probably not approach like one company's 3,000 employees.
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:19.840
It's not our ideal customer because like can we even take care of 3,000 employees?
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:25.679
But but I'm preparing Kevin's like if we get 3,000 employees, we need to make sure that we can do it.
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:32.559
So that's almost like it's not sure that that they will ever sign, um, etc.
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:42.880
But and even if they don't, it's incoming leads that are showing interest, if they show interest, someone else will show interest just because you're talking about it.
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:48.800
I would tell everyone else that's trying to start their own business you need to talk about it.
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:55.679
And connections and contacts and networking is probably more important than I thought.
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.280
But also having the authentic connections.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:09.840
Thought you need to be a little bit personal, not just chatting when you want something, but chatting to constantly just stay in touch and being friendly, really.
00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:11.440
Well, I think that's really good advice.
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:16.960
But I but I also think that what what you've learned is what works for you.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:30.239
And that might not be that might be different for someone else, but you but you yeah, you know, I think I I do think that that in general is a good strategy, but I also think that what the the important thing there is that you I remember having that conversation with you before.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:40.559
We were talking about doing more outbound marketing or or maybe some more webinars or something, and some of the things that we tested, and you said, you know what, the thing I I really like doing is going to events.
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:42.480
Yeah, can I not just go to events?
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:47.760
And I remember we said, Yeah, that's let's go go to the events if that's what you feel comfortable doing.
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:48.239
Yeah.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:50.639
Um, so it's nice to hear that that's paying off.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:45:04.079
And and I think that that point about talking about it, there is this common fallacy that that these optimistic founders, and most of us are optimistic, that we we kind of think that this is such a good idea.
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:06.320
If I just build it, then they will come.
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:08.719
Then customers will find out about it.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.280
But unless you're talking about it, they won't.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:12.400
No one will.
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:19.119
And so go to market is such a crucial element, and you want to be doing that as early as as possible.
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:25.760
Sell it, then build it is always a much better way around than build it, then sell it, as you're finding with your new features.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:27.920
So I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap it up there.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.519
That's pretty much exactly the hour.
00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:32.800
Thank you so much for for sharing, Caroline.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:38.159
I know that uh it's been uh uh a fun journey, but it hasn't all been plain sailing.
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:41.440
So it's nice to hear your uh your honest perspective.
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:43.360
Thank you so much.
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:51.039
I hope it can help someone to get the realistic view of what it's like building a business nowadays.
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:59.679
Yeah, I think I think for me the the big thing that you said there that really resonates with me is how long it takes.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:09.920
Because I don't I don't I I think I've invested, and you know this, I've invested in 65 companies and I've invested in a bunch more through three funds that I backed.
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:10.480
Yeah.
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:19.119
In all of those companies, I can't think of one company that has grown faster than they expected.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:25.920
And I think from from my perspective, certainly as an investor, they've all grown much slower than I hoped.
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:28.320
And so I'm sure that's true for the founders as well.
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:30.400
They all think, God, this is a slog.
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:32.400
This is not what I was expecting.
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.280
And uh I don't you don't hear that talked about very often.
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:56.559
But yeah, if you're if you're you know my age, you're or or younger like you, and you but you're you're still mid-career, and you've got uh mortgages, or you bought bought them at a nice flat, or you or you know, you're you're spending your money on you you need to find money every month to keep your head above water, then that's a key consideration, how long it's gonna take.
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:00.159
I think people think they're gonna build their business and sell it in three years.
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:01.840
It's not gonna happen.
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:05.280
You you might build it and sell it within 10 if you're lucky.
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:09.840
But uh yeah, take your time, don't rush, yeah, don't quit.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:11.360
Definitely.
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:12.159
Cool.
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:14.559
Okay, last thing I'm gonna ask you.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:18.400
How do people find you and find out more about Clever?
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:30.559
So if people are uh curious about uh flexible benefits and how employees can build their own packages, obviously uh we consider HR and payroll.
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:36.960
Admin can't be too heavy, and payroll needs to be compliant, is just to visit cleverbenefits.com.
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:37.760
Brilliant.
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:39.280
All right, thanks, Caroline.
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:50.880
And if you liked that interview and you'd like more of the same, look for Founder Stories on YouTube under DQVentures Official or find it wherever you get your podcast.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.840
My background is an HRBP.
00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:04.639
I've worked with that now for about fifteen years.
00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:17.199
I started to research is it really true that we don't have anything where employees can build the most valuable benefits package for them for a budget that already exists?
00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:28.000
And six months after we couldn't find anything that was suitable for the Swedish market, and I couldn't find that product for that hole in the market either.
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:29.120
I need to try.
00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:31.760
It may go to, but I have to try.
00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:44.320
A lot of founders think they know the problem, but if they're not intimately involved with the problem that they're solving, there's nearly always something that they haven't thought about, and that can be the difference between success and failure.
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:48.799
And it came to a point where I felt like we were going too slow.
00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:58.479
And I was like, we need that little bit of a fire with someone that knows what it's like going to market because I've never brought the product to market.
00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:05.840
Today I got our very first email that our very first client is gonna prolong their contract for another year.
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.439
We're doing something right.
00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:14.319
A client that we signed four months ago, they trust us to expand to a market I know nothing about.
00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:18.640
Hi, I'm James Green, co-founder of DQ Ventures.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:26.000
If you're an experienced professional thinking about starting your own business, then please listen to this before you quit.
00:01:48.319 --> 00:02:01.920
And the reason we're doing this is because a lot of the the uh startup content that you consume online is produced by venture capital investors or the founders of companies that have gone on to become a unicorn.
00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:07.680
But unfortunately, that doesn't represent 99% of businesses and business owners.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.639
And the likelihood is it doesn't represent you either.
00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:18.240
Today's founder is Caroline Sandchrist, who by sheer coincidence is based in Stockholm, the same as me.
00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:27.599
She was exploring all sorts of accelerators, uh funding providers, and ended up working with us at DK Ventures.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:35.280
Uh I think her main reason for that was that she, even if she had been given money, she wasn't really sure what to do with it.
00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:41.919
And she wanted to work with people who'd started businesses before and had an idea of the path that she should take.
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:46.960
So without further ado, let's hear from Caroline and uh and see what she has to say.
00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:58.240
Something that I see all the time is that most companies think that a high-budget wellness allowance and complex bonus structures is going to win great people over.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:11.039
But after 15 years in HR, what I can tell is that what employees actually care about is not the wellness allowance per se, but benefits that they can tailor after their different life stages.
00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:14.000
So not a one-size-fit-all package.
00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:23.280
And the problem that I saw in the market was that there wasn't really a benefits platform that was truly built for people, but also admin smooth for payroll.
00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.719
And this is exactly why I built Clever Benefits.
00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.319
I'm Caroline, the founder and CEO of Clever Benefits.
00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:38.639
And if you're ready to truly attract and keep brilliant people through meaningful benefits, you can visit us at cleverbenefits.com.
00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:45.759
I am very happy to be joined by Caroline Sandqvist, who is the founder of Clever Benefits.
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:55.680
And she's uh part of our DQ Ventures portfolio and building a SaaS company here where I'm based as well, in Sweden, uh in Stockholm.
00:03:55.759 --> 00:04:02.560
So Caroline and I are rare exceptions that we actually meet in person from time to time, uh, which is nice.
00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:11.520
Another thing that makes Caroline a bit unique is that when she came to us and we were when she first discovered us, which I think was via LinkedIn, wasn't it, Caroline?
00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:12.000
Yeah.
00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:12.560
Yeah.
00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:31.120
That she already had a software platform built because she has a co-founder and uh he works diligently behind the scenes to bring the platform to uh reality, while Caroline is focused more on the content of what the company does and the business development.
00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:32.319
So welcome, Caroline.
00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:35.519
Thank you for being part of our humble little podcast.
00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:37.279
Thank you for having me.
00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:51.279
Caroline, the reason that we we record these podcasts is that 99% of podcast material out there that talks about startups is recorded by less than 1% of founders.
00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:56.480
And so we wanted to record podcasts with people who are building real businesses the hard way.
00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:02.240
Not that raising venture capital is not hard, it's incredibly hard, but it's just not for most of us.
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.120
Uh and so we're trying to bring real stories.
00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:19.759
So if anyone's out there who's thinking about quitting their job and starting a company, that they get the real inside story, inside track on what it's really like and what some of the the unknown unknowns might be.
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:29.600
Yeah, I think that's really useful because obviously not everyone can be the people that gets written about in papers on on Forbes list or or whatever.
00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.720
It's a very few percentage up there.
00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:34.000
Exactly.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:50.720
And a lot of the people that apply to DQ assume that they are going to be the one that ends up in TechCrunch and uh that raises millions of dollars and exits for many millions more, but that sadly that's just not the reality for 90, 99% of the founders.
00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.720
Yeah, but but you don't need to you don't need to be in Forbes to have a great business.
00:05:54.879 --> 00:06:09.199
My brother sells yachts for a living, and he said that apart from the occasional Formula One driver, most of their customers are people you've never heard of who have built big businesses that have never really been written about.
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:15.839
I want to talk about the the problem that you're that you're solving and give give us a little intro to what that is.
00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.959
But what what I'm most interested in is that what happened?
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:25.199
What was that moment where you were working in your job and you just thought, do you know what?
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.160
I'm gonna go and build my own company, and this is why.
00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:30.560
What was that moment for you?
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:39.600
That moment was actually when we were trying to find a product that we couldn't find at our current job.
00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:42.319
So my background is an HRBP.
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:47.519
I've worked with that now for about 15 years and actually still still am.
00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:55.120
It's still the things that pays my bills until until Clever will hit off and be able to pay my bills.
00:06:55.279 --> 00:07:10.399
But when I was done working in-house, we were an international tech company, it was in the middle of COVID, and salaries were just spiking, and we're like, we it's not sustainable for us to follow in this salary rate.
00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:36.319
So, what can we do in terms of compensation to keep being attractive and for uh candidates to choose us, but also to uh to keep employees because we were seeing an employee turnover rate of like 25, even 30 percent, and everything was going to go remote, and you saw this big shift for employees, like what's in it for me.
00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:40.079
So you needed to make that mindset change.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:08:06.079
Um, but also the the difficulties is that you were operating in different countries with different legislations and different tax legislations around employee benefits, and so we were trying to unlock the set benefit packages that we had and see if employees could swap one benefit for another if they saw a bigger value in another benefit, depending on where they are in their lives today.
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:16.800
We could find something that was suitable for the UK, we found something that was suitable for Spain, which was the two biggest countries that we had employees in.
00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:18.319
But then we had Sweden.
00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:23.519
And as soon as we started to talk about Sweden and Nordics in general, it was a hard no.
00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:32.720
The platform's like, no, we can't do it, we're not gonna do it, it's too complex, we don't understand the market with benefit taxation, et cetera, et cetera.
00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:46.480
It ended up with that company purchasing a platform, I still have to call it, but I would say a glorified Excel for lots and lots and lots of money, and it was never launched to the employees.
00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:56.159
So they signed like a two-year contract and was never launched to the employees because they couldn't get the calculations right, even in the markets that they were actually operating in.
00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:59.759
And that was like an aha moment for me.
00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:15.440
And we have other benefit platforms in Sweden, but I started to research is it really true that we don't have anything where employees can build the most valuable benefits package for them for a budget that already exists.
00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:16.879
And I couldn't find it.
00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:20.080
And then I was thinking about like the rest of the HR landscape.
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:34.399
We've seen so many new HR IS platforms coming in for the smaller companies, you have all of the engagement and survey uh platforms, and you have all of the learning and development platforms uh coming on.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:43.519
So we've seen lots of digitalization all around in the HR space, but nothing has happened on the benefit side.
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:55.039
And I was just going with this thought, and for years and years and years, when I was working as an HRBP, I had this feeling that's like I should run my own company, but I didn't know in what.
00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:08.080
And six months after, we were like, we couldn't find anything that was suitable for the Swedish market, and I couldn't find that product for that hole in the market either.
00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:10.720
I was like, I need to try.
00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.919
It may go to shit, but I have to try.
00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.679
And I at least I've tried.
00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:22.080
So that was like the moment rather than decided, like, I need to do this, and then we'll see what happens.
00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:23.200
Wow.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.080
So, how how did you then tackle that?
00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:27.120
You know, what was the next step?
00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:32.559
You you never built a company before, uh, you you'd not build software before, you knew what you wanted.
00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.799
Well, yeah, what did you what did you do?
00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:36.879
What did you you do first?
00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:48.399
I mean, obviously, the very first thing for me was to like since I could be the customer of this product, it was quite natural for me.
00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:57.279
It's like if I would be to to buy this for my company that we wanted to buy, but we couldn't buy, what would it look like?
00:10:57.440 --> 00:10:59.039
And what would be crucial for me?
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:10.240
Uh so then it's like it needs to be the user experience, it has to be all of the settings in the background, making sure that it's tax compliant, making sure that it's GDPR compliant, etc.
00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:10.720
etc.
00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.120
There's lots of different variables.
00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:19.679
So I started thinking about like what would this product look like for me if I was to buy this?
00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.759
And then obviously you have an HR network.
00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:26.720
So I started to talk about this, and I was like, I'm thinking about building this.
00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.519
If you were to buy what what would you have wanted it to look like?
00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.080
What would be really important, etc.
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:44.960
So that was the first thing to basically design the product because that is what's closest to me to even select who would buy this if I'm offering it.
00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:50.480
I think that's quite common, you know, that most people lean towards a product.
00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.039
It's the exciting part, it's the creative part.
00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:55.440
So you're definitely not alone.
00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.320
But in your case, you you were the buyer.
00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.039
And I think that's a big advantage.
00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:01.679
Yeah.
00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:11.120
And I also think like I kind of did those like inofficial user interviews when I was like talking to other HR people.
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.200
Uh, probably gonna talk about it later on when we joined DQ.
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:22.240
That's what you do first is user interviews, but I didn't have any documented, super structured, etc.
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:30.559
But I've still talked about it, but it's one thing talking about it, and people say, Oh, yes, it's a great idea to someone that's actually buying the product.
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:31.360
Yeah.
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:40.960
But step number two was I don't have hundreds of thousands of set to spend on a developer.
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:42.879
So I need someone to build this for me.
00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.480
I was then looking around with people I have worked with before.
00:12:46.639 --> 00:13:04.399
I also wanted someone that had a little bit of that like business mindset, understand what it means building a business and someone that's ready to give up like even weekends because most likely in this age that we are now, we have bills to pay and we have mortgages.
00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:14.320
And so you can't just like jump into something 100% and quit your job and not being able to know how you're gonna survive next month.
00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:20.639
So I reached out to a developer that I had worked with um eight years previously.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:28.320
So so we had worked at the same job, and I talked about the idea, and then I said, Do you want to build this with me?
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.840
And he said, Yes, I want to build this with you.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:42.320
And then and then that's how we started the company, and pretty early on, we created the company for like for the official documentation and shares and and stuff like that.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:52.000
So so all of the papers would would be in order, which is pretty early, but we were also just like not friends, friends, even though we had worked together for for a few years.
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:59.440
We don't do that, we don't start a company until until later, but but I think it's quite quite a natural thing for you to do in your situation.
00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:07.039
Definitely working with co-founders can be fraught with trouble and uh issues and misalignment.
00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:09.120
Even when you've worked together, that can happen.
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:14.080
But uh but in your case, because you had worked together before, it's not that not such a big risk.
00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:22.399
Just for anyone listening, by the way, SEC is the the acronym for Swedish krona, uh with like like USD is for US dollars.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:29.679
You started a company, you issued your shares, you you got started, you designed the product, uh, Kevin started building.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:30.240
Yeah.
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.000
What happened then?
00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:37.519
Um and where and when did you realize that this was not going to be as easy as you thought, or that maybe you needed some help?
00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:46.960
I think a big realization for both myself and Kevin is that we probably need to be accountable for someone else.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.120
So we're built for a long time.
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:58.879
And I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, which is also not great because you need to ship a product and just test it out.
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:10.320
But at the same time, I was like, if we don't have GDPR stuff in place, no one's gonna buy anyway because we're gonna deal with personal data and people's salaries and stuff like that.
00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:17.279
We need to we can't have too low of a minimal standard because then we won't sell.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:31.200
So I think we took about like one and a half year before I even started talking about the product and trying to then sell it because I thought it was like now it's good enough, and I can stand for that.
00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.960
I know that we are GDPR compliant, um, etc.
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:47.919
Just to jump in there, that there's there's a ton of wannabe founders or aspiring founders who who are thinking, all I need is to find a tech co-founder and everything will be fine.
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:53.519
I think this is quite an interesting insight that there's a couple of couple of issues.
00:15:53.840 --> 00:16:04.960
One is just because you've got a tech co-founder doesn't really speed you things up because the the thing that holds you up the most generally is not the product, it's getting the customers.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:05.440
Yep.
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:11.600
But but having uh a tech co-founder means that you can feel busy.
00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:16.720
You can feel you can spend ages like on where's that button gonna go, what's the flow?
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:18.000
And it's and it's fun.
00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:19.120
I I've done it myself.
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:25.039
It's you know, wireframing and working out what how the user experience is gonna flow is great.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:34.879
But the trap is that it takes a long, long time, and you build from your brain and from your imagination rather from real market feedback.
00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:38.399
Yeah, and so by the time you launch, you've spent 18 months.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:44.159
It it happens more quickly now with with AI, but it still can be a long time getting things right.
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:52.879
And you're building the way in isolation, and then you bring something to market, and then you realize all the things that you should have you should have known when you by starting to speak to customers.
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:54.559
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:54.799 --> 00:17:09.680
From what I told Kevin to build when it comes to what flows and how reporting needs to work and all the GDPR setups and stuff like that, to then what our customers has actually bought today hasn't changed.
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:16.400
I think really strength with being a buyer building the product.
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:27.519
Um, I was quite realistic in what was needed, but since I also was very realistic what was needed, it took us longer because I wasn't, this is not good enough.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:30.240
This needs to be stronger, I can't sell this.
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:47.759
I'm also quite an honest person, and I sometimes that's a really good thing because you build credibility and you build trust and you build relationships, but sometimes you need to be a little bit of a hustler and you need to promise the world and fix it afterwards, and sometimes I can struggle with that balance.
00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:50.400
Yeah, that's I mean, that's an interesting one.
00:17:50.480 --> 00:18:00.720
I'm like you, I believe honesty is the most important uh faculty to have, but uh there there is always an element of of sell it, then build it.
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:25.359
But but I I also agree completely that you were the buyer, and that is a big reason why we wanted to work with you was because a lot of uh a lot of founders think they know the problem, but if they're not intimately involved with the the problem that they're solving, there's nearly always something that they haven't thought about, and that can be the difference between success and failure.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:27.759
So for us, you were you were spot on.
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:36.240
Uh and uh this is definitely not intended to be an advert for DQ, but but more from a kind of uh a what's missing point of view.
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:40.559
What attracted you to us when you when you saw us on LinkedIn?
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:56.079
And what was it that you thought, God, do you know what this was this part's not working, I could really do with help here, that maybe you didn't think at the beginning, that other people might be thinking that they they know, but they're they're gonna find out that it's much more difficult than they than they realize.
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:57.359
Yeah.
00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:07.440
So in my early, early career, I was an account manager, lifting up the phones, doing cold calls, getting rejections and stuff like that.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:17.519
And I 100% had a little have a little bit of PTSD when it comes to that time because I don't have a very positive view of sales, to be honest.
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.319
And I remember in our first conversations as well, you're like, what are you gonna struggle with?
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.599
And I'm gonna struggle with sales, which is not great.
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:31.920
Because we're because we're not gonna have a business if I can't sell my own business.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.680
It's uh it's as simple as that.
00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:44.480
But I think it came, I I think I followed you for over a year before I contacted you and DQ, and it came to a point where I felt like we were going too slow.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:55.599
And I was like, we need that like a little bit of a fire with someone that knows what it's like going to market because I've never brought the product to market.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:08.160
I have my perceptions of sales that are completely wrong to what I was selling 15 years ago, to what I will sell now.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.480
And I realized like, how will we get there?
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:24.000
It's probably the best for us that we get other people in with various expertise in their different areas to support us in that journey.
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:29.839
I really reasonated with the DQ way of that not everything has to be super quick.
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:31.359
You don't have to quit your job.
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.119
We understand you have commitments.
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:47.920
You rather speak from the point of view don't quit your job because most businesses fail, and we don't want you to leave a great full-time job, but we still want you to commit and we still want to know that you're serious with this.
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:54.720
And then, of course, I checked out the team, what you've done before, what type of different expertise you had.
00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.839
You've all built businesses and sold businesses.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.359
But what were your strengths when you were building your business?
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:12.480
And I felt that your team was complimenting both me and Kevin, and that's uh that's when I reached out to basically the go-to-market um strategy because we had the product.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.240
I was like, how do I ship this?
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:26.720
I've got a uh a friend in Singapore who's who runs a VC fund, and I mean he says many times, and I have many conversations with him, where he'll ask people, What do you think is the most important thing about a business?
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:37.119
And and they aren't people say product or customer service or funding or whatever, but he always says no, he always says noes to everything, and he says it's always sales.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:46.799
He and I have invested in a lot of businesses, and nearly always the reason that you don't get the outcome you want is that the company just couldn't sell as well as they hoped.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:53.279
Or well, I mean, it's not necessarily about salesability, it's about how much do people want the thing that you're offering.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:22:02.799
And like you were saying right at the beginning, there's a big difference between telling someone in a Chat without I'm building something, what do you think?
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.519
Or I'm building this, what would you want it to look like?
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.920
People are nice, they're gonna say nice things, they're gonna say, Oh, yeah, you should, you should do it.
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.960
And your friends, I mean, I think this is one of the most ironic things in startup world.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:22.640
If you tell your friends that uh that you're thinking about quitting your job and going and starting a company, they'll probably say, Yeah, go for it.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:24.319
What could what could go wrong?
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:27.440
It's like it's the worst thing that you could say to somebody.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:29.759
It's like, yeah, a lot can go wrong, actually.
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.920
So they should be saying, Don't quit.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:37.039
You know, find someone who knows what they're talking about, and get some advice and take it, take it slowly.
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:38.319
Don't give up your income.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:47.039
Because I mean, as you've found, that it takes a lot longer than than you expect to be able to pay yourself a uh a salary like you're used to earning from your own business.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:55.039
I'm interested to know when you reached this point, did you you obviously we were connected on LinkedIn and and so I was posting a lot in those days.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:56.799
Were there other things that you were considering?
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:09.359
Like did you look at at uh accelerators or did you try and raise money or or we never tried to raise money because I mean, obviously, you follow Dragonston and and all of that.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.119
Like we had a product, we didn't have any customers at that point.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:18.880
I was like, we're gonna have to give up half of the company for peanuts, and I was like, not interested.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:30.000
There is other companies in Spain and in France that have uh raised millions of euros and like they've grown so fast in five years.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:32.400
And obviously, that is like a little bit of like a trigger.
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:37.119
It's like, okay, there is something here in the Spanish market.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:44.559
Yeah, can I translate that to the Swedish or the Nordic market that looked completely different as well?
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:51.920
You you can't have a Swedish product and launch that in Spain because they're not gonna buy it, uh, because they have their tax regulations, etc.
00:23:52.319 --> 00:24:02.240
It gave me the strength to see like we do have a culture shift when it comes to compensation and benefits packages and stuff like that.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:08.079
And it's been invested in as like a future product in other markets.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.240
Could that be the same for Sweden?
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.960
Obviously, you never know, but I wasn't interested in looking at capital then.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.960
I did look at some accelerators and stuff like that.
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:24.480
Um obviously, they are also gonna have shares, you're always gonna have to to give up shares.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:29.920
But the difference here was it's like they want you in 100%, they want you to do the business 100%.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:35.680
And neither me or or Kevin was just not there.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:40.400
Um with with the life circumstances that that we have.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.160
We're not 20, 25 years old anymore and can move back home.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:50.079
So that's where we found DQ being a better cultural option for us.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:51.920
Yeah, I mean that's why we started it.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:03.279
I I think uh YC, I think the I think the first thing you read on the YC website, or it certainly was at one point, is that uh if you're not all in, then why are you bothering?
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:05.599
And uh they're only interested in people who are all in.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:09.359
And that's that's the predominant attitude across the startup world.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:27.279
Uh and we started DQ because we felt that that just discounts the majority of founders who just don't have that freedom and flexibility to do that, or certainly more experienced founders who the statistics show are more likely to succeed because they actually know know something and have learned something.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.480
Yeah, the whole de-risking thing is is a big uh a big uh focus for us.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.119
But that's not to say that we can't raise capital.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:51.599
I I think I agree with you that raising capital on day one is generally a bad idea unless you've already built yourself a startup and you've got a track record and people are willing to invest millions of dollars for a small stake because they already know that you're the very likely to do it again.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:52.079
Yeah.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:26:02.000
But for most people, you one A, you probably won't be able to raise money, and B, you probably shouldn't, because you don't know if it's gonna succeed either.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:10.400
And and I can speak from experience that there's no worse feeling than realizing your business isn't gonna work when you've taken millions of dollars of people's money.
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:15.519
And you've got to make those phone calls and tell them that uh it's not gonna work and that you can't pay them back.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:23.920
I think you're doing exactly the right thing by building traction, building uh conviction in your own product before you think about scaling.
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:34.960
And then you've got the option to pour fuel on the fire and potentially raise some capital to do things faster, quit your job if you if you want to, and and and so on.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:39.359
But I like I really like your your way of uh of approaching clever.
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:45.359
That remember one of our recent chats, you were saying that yeah, I've I've got plenty of time, I'm not rushing this.
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:52.240
Uh we've got some customers, they're happy, it's going well, but I'm not rushing to quit my job for this.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:59.200
And uh I'd much rather build my own conviction uh that this is gonna work before before taking that leap.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:01.039
Uh and I think that's sensible.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:01.839
Yeah.
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:04.319
You still you still thinking the same thing?
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:18.240
Yeah, and uh actually uh today I got our very first email that our very first client is gonna prolong their contract for another year, which means that our very, very first client are happy with us.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:20.960
They want to continue, we're doing something right.
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:32.000
We have talked about like we need to nail Sweden, then we'll maybe have a look at Nordics because it's natural for our businesses to have to have operations in in nearby countries.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:37.279
A client that we signed four months ago, we've gone live in Sweden.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:45.680
They are now like, we want to launch in Norway, let's set up uh a call with our accountants to make sure that we get all of the tax regulation right.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:57.039
So now all of a sudden, we can look at it's like we're doing that good of a job in Sweden that they trust us to expand to a market I know nothing about.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:59.599
And I've been a hundred percent honest with them.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:06.240
It's like I've never worked with Norway, I have no idea about Norway, we need help from your accountants, and they still invest that.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:07.359
That's awesome.
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:13.519
So those receipts for me is just like continue building clients.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.440
They are gonna want to stay with us.
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.400
We are doing a good job, we are doing something right.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:22.640
Okay, let's take a quick break and hear from one of our portfolio companies.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.599
Hi, I'm Rachel, and I'm the founder of Journey.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:39.680
Journey began when I had to fly back from the UK with my three children under the age of four by myself with a two-month-old baby, and I realized that it was something I didn't think I could do alone without an extra pair of pants.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:47.440
I posted an ad on Facebook looking for a companion or somebody who could help me, my children, and it went viral.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:54.880
I had thousands of people comment, respond, message me, and media outlets reaching out to run a story on me.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:59.519
And that's when I realized that this was a problem that was more widely spread than just me.
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:05.759
We launched Journey in June 2025, and since then we've had more than 50 journeys that have completed.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:17.119
The thing I'm most excited about is getting more people matched together so that more people can travel the world, do the things they want to do, see the people they want to see, and not be held back by the challenges of the client.
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:22.480
Can you think of a specific moment along the way where you really didn't know what to do?
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:33.599
You lent on the people around you to solve a problem that you they weren't sure how to solve, or maybe there was you were really stuck with something and you managed to get unstuck.
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:36.319
I've probably got one or two things that I can think of.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:42.000
But for you, I I'm interested to know what what was there where you were like, Oh, I'm so glad that we managed to solve that.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:48.720
For me, it's most about like my impatience, maybe.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:49.680
Yeah.
00:29:53.200 --> 00:30:08.000
Even though I have like a full-time job and uh you have commitments in that, and I have clients there, there is still a part of me that is very much like 100% clever is gonna be my future.
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.400
Clever is the company that is gonna pay my bills, I'm gonna work with 100%.
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:17.680
I am convinced that one day we're gonna hire our first employee.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.440
That's not the founding team.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.599
I do see a future for clever.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.559
And then I want to run faster.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:34.079
Obviously, when you have a founding team, it doesn't matter how well you get along, you're gonna have different ways of working.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:41.519
And sometimes my ways of working haven't aligned with my co-founder's way of working, and I've been frustrated.
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:47.279
And I was like, this is going too slow, this is doing this, this is doing that, etc.
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:58.960
But at the end, it's come to the acceptance that as long as we get things done in deadline for our clients, it doesn't matter how we get there.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:00.400
Yeah.
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.000
Well, I I've got co-founders, as you know, and we all work very differently.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:11.839
Um, and certainly there's there's always gonna be certain frictions, and there's gonna be times where you see things differently.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:20.079
But I think making feel that you work with people that you respect and that you trust, uh you can pretty much get through anything.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.200
And also people that that can keep their sense of humour.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:36.240
Because there's there's gonna be times where someone loses their shit and uh uh and goes off and sulks, and uh there's nothing like a bit of teasing to snap someone out of a bad mood rather than uh everyone getting too serious about it.
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:43.440
I've had a few co-founders over the years of very different personalities, but they've all been people that I really trusted and respected.
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:46.480
So they all they all ended well, uh those businesses.
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:49.359
Whether we sold them or or we shut them down.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:54.319
I'm still talking to all of those people as far as I can remember.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:54.880
Yeah.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:59.680
Well, so that's something that that you probably knew about yourself already, that you've been impatient.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:04.880
What's something that you that you've that you've learned about yourself through this process?
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:19.839
I think that through my like employment years, I've always seen myself as very independent and I get shit done, and I'm super fast, and I just like just give it to me and I will source it out.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:20.640
Here you go.
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:27.359
Running your own business, I have realized that I thrive the most around people.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:28.480
Yeah.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.880
It can be quite lonely, can't it, being a founder?
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:32.240
Quite lonely.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.680
My best ideas come from when I speak to people.
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:37.839
It doesn't have to be a customer.
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.960
It can it can be Kevin that's my technical co-founder, or you and me sit down and speak.
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:49.599
But I've realized that if I'm isolated and I'm alone, I'll get nothing done.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:50.480
Really?
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:55.599
I yeah, and but I was one who's like, just give me a task and I will get it done.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:01.119
But I was also part of a context, even though I was working independently, I was part of a team.
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:04.559
That's really interesting.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:16.240
You had like three team meetings that week, and then you could talk about things, and all of a sudden you got a solution for that problem you were working on, and you took in other people's perspective.
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:28.640
Uh, but when I'm then gonna develop my product, or we're gonna talk about something, or I've given something, I've given something bigger to Kevin, he's like, Oh, it's gonna take me three weeks to do this, okay, okay, fine.
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:41.599
Then I get nothing done for those three weeks because I'm not speaking to Kevin unless he's got a blocker, because I leave him alone to build what we have agreed to build, or whatever our customer has has requested from us.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:51.359
Um, so for me, it's the the team and the interaction that I'm a lot more dependent on than what I thought in the start.
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:58.880
How I've never heard that insight before, and I can so resonate with that, or uh it really resonates with me.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.599
And I think just trying to distill that down.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.839
I a lot of people who become founders are doers.
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.880
I think I feel like I'm a doer and get stuff done.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.840
But there's a very big difference between doing and being motivated to do.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:27.760
Like if you're uh so if you don't have someone holding you accountable, and especially you know, you're working from home, like I'm at home now, I'll just go and make a cup of tea, and then I'll flick through the paper or the distractions of the mobile phone these days.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:32.000
You can burn scrolling through yeah, exactly.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.800
So there's always something to find to that that you can do.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:44.480
And like you say, that that's a there's a big difference between feeling like you're gonna get stuff done and actually getting stuff done.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:44.960
Yeah.
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.480
So I'm glad that we've uh that we've been able to help with that.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:59.760
And uh I'm gonna try and uh try and think about that more because that's something that most people probably wouldn't think think of, especially if they have if they think of themselves as someone who really gets stuff done.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:01.920
Yeah that might come as a surprise.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:32.320
Yeah, and I've always been there, but I can genuinely say the last six months of our platform, since we're collaborating more closely with our clients now that we have on board, we've got more done because number one, we know what they want, and two, I'm accountable to deliver it to them, which then also makes Kevin more motivated because he knows we're also shipping stuff that our clients really want instead of me sitting guessing what we want.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:46.960
And I think that has really since since we got our customers in, that's really pushed our speed um as well because we are accountable to to someone and to make sure everything is right as well.
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:54.239
As you know, I like our process, we like to get a customer before we build a platform.
00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:06.159
And um and I I think I'm not thought of that as being an advantage, but um certainly having somebody expecting something makes you makes you move quickly, as well as making sure you're building the right stuff.
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:08.320
So that's that's yeah, that's good.
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:18.480
Knowing what you know now, if you went back and transformed yourself or transported yourself back into your former self where you're sitting there thinking, oh, you know what, I should build this myself.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:23.760
What would you say to yourself that uh to give yourself some advice?
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.679
Like it could be don't do it, or it could be uh remember this.
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.039
What would you say?
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:52.239
I would say allow allow time and don't stress, because obviously you get the newspapers and and all of the articles of lovable founders and whoever else that raises billions, uh, and you see all of the success stories, and of course you want to be part of that.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.199
It's like it's a dream, but will you ever get there?
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:01.840
Most likely not, um, because that's the reality.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:09.440
If you make it, you're you're one of thousands, hundreds of thousands uh that's ever starting to build a business.
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:21.440
And when I started everything, I wanted it to be super quick, and I was like, within six months to one year, I'm gonna have to resign and we're gonna be super successful, and this is gonna go into all of that.
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:27.840
Like, it takes longer time than that, and you don't need to be up yourself because it is taking longer.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:36.800
It's better to have a sustainable business that clients actually want, even if it takes longer time.
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:42.800
Isn't there a saying that it takes seven years for a like a normal business to be profitable?
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:47.760
And we're three years down the line from where we started building.
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.960
So we have four years to go before you make that average mark.
00:37:53.360 --> 00:38:16.960
I mean, the first thing you're basically saying to yourself, don't quit, because this is gonna take a long time and you don't have the funds in the bank to support that journey, which we say to people all the time, but people ignore us constantly and go and quit, and then they end up burning through their savings or or realizing their savings are gonna burn out and then try to get a job when they've half-built their software product that never sprung to a customer.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:20.239
It's a great way to burn through your life savings and not achieve anything.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.280
I mean, if there's anyone out there in that position, please don't quiz.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:25.519
But also hold down costs.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:29.119
How can you do uh how can you build as cheap as possible?
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:36.400
Obviously, a big advantage for us is that I had a technical co-founder that is investing his time in building all of this.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:48.719
But everything we've we've built on, we tried to get software for free, like we've joined startup programs and stuff like that, so we don't need to pay for lots of licenses and trying to be smart with the money you spend.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:53.039
I think on average, since we started, we've spent$50 a month.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:58.400
And you can afford to spend$50 a month building your business if you have the right competence.
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:02.000
Obviously, that's a different story if you don't have a technical co-founder.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:08.880
Try and find a way and a team, and you have partners to do that, and that's also why you exist.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:13.519
But how can you hold down down costs so you don't burn your life savings on it?
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:15.119
Be smart with money.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:17.679
Well, I I know I know at least one person.
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:19.360
Well, I know two people actually.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:34.559
Uh, one I know pretty well, he spent$100,000 of his own money building a software platform that never got a single user because he had the money and he found a company and they built it and didn't do any go-to-market or any any uh user interviews.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:40.719
I know another guy, I only met him once actually in Singapore, but he'd spent half a million of his own money.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:56.800
So clearly a wealthy guy, and and he what he actually said to me is uh he was trying to raise money for and I was investing in those days, and he said, I'm raising money because I just want to build a couple more features, and then I know we'll get custom get users.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:05.679
And I was just thinking, this is what he's done, he's just added features, thinking that's what drives customers, but actually it's not, it's it's talking to customers and finding out what they want.
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:23.039
And the other point I would make about that is that I mean, software development agencies are gonna hate me for this, but if you find a software development company to build your product and you say, I want all of this, then and I've got the money to pay for it, then they're gonna build all of that.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:28.400
I mean, the good ones will make it better, but they're still gonna spend your money.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:34.320
Whereas what you really want is someone who's got as much incentive not to spend money as you have.
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:45.599
Uh, and so there are ways, especially now, there are ways to fake it uh or to build a true MVP for peanuts.
00:40:46.239 --> 00:41:07.519
Uh you just gotta find the right people to build it with you, maybe get them so that they're aligned at some kind of success-based reward, but don't just go and blow your money on on someone who you think is good, because uh if if their business is based on hours and uh work done, then they're gonna spend hours and they're gonna build your for them.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:15.199
So, yeah, you you you're quite unusual that you you got Kevin, and that is a major bonus um for you.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:22.239
But it's it's good for us as well, obviously, because we didn't have to worry about building the product um and uh and funding that as well.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:37.519
My other question was it like when you meet people now, and I bet you I bet this happens that you're you go to a conference and you meet someone and you say, Oh, actually, I've I've started my own company, and and they say, Ah, do you know what I'm thinking about starting my own company?
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:39.679
Well, what's the one thing you say to them?
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:45.119
I mean, maybe it's the same, that it's gonna take a long time, but what do you find yourself telling people?
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.719
It's probably the say the second thing that I would tell myself, be out and about.
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.960
You need to let people know that you are building.
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:57.840
You need to let people know what you are doing.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:02.719
Obviously, I'm still HR consulting and I'm reliant on getting new clients.
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:08.400
I talk a lot about pay transparency because that's uh that's what I'm working with in my day job.
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:16.000
And I need to talk about my other business the same way because if I don't talk about it, how are they even going to know that it exists?
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.920
For me, selling, and we've talked a lot about this, James.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:26.719
Like I do my very best when I'm at smaller networking events, 30, 50 people.
00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:36.639
It shouldn't be like the big tech arena or or whatever with thousands of people, because I don't want to approach people that way.
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:50.239
I want to be in a smaller room where I know a couple of people, you get introduced to another person, and then the words start start uh start building, yeah, and and uh spread.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:43:09.360
And then I have seen since I started writing more about clever on LinkedIn and letting that network that I've actually built on there, knowing that I'm doing this as well, I have got incoming leads that I didn't get before.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:14.960
And it's incoming leads I would probably not approach like one company's 3,000 employees.
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:19.840
It's not our ideal customer because like can we even take care of 3,000 employees?
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:25.679
But but I'm preparing Kevin's like if we get 3,000 employees, we need to make sure that we can do it.
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:32.559
So that's almost like it's not sure that that they will ever sign, um, etc.
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:42.880
But and even if they don't, it's incoming leads that are showing interest, if they show interest, someone else will show interest just because you're talking about it.
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:48.800
I would tell everyone else that's trying to start their own business you need to talk about it.
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:55.679
And connections and contacts and networking is probably more important than I thought.
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.280
But also having the authentic connections.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:09.840
Thought you need to be a little bit personal, not just chatting when you want something, but chatting to constantly just stay in touch and being friendly, really.
00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:11.440
Well, I think that's really good advice.
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:16.960
But I but I also think that what what you've learned is what works for you.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:30.239
And that might not be that might be different for someone else, but you but you yeah, you know, I think I I do think that that in general is a good strategy, but I also think that what the the important thing there is that you I remember having that conversation with you before.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:40.559
We were talking about doing more outbound marketing or or maybe some more webinars or something, and some of the things that we tested, and you said, you know what, the thing I I really like doing is going to events.
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:42.480
Yeah, can I not just go to events?
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:47.760
And I remember we said, Yeah, that's let's go go to the events if that's what you feel comfortable doing.
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:48.239
Yeah.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:50.639
Um, so it's nice to hear that that's paying off.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:45:04.079
And and I think that that point about talking about it, there is this common fallacy that that these optimistic founders, and most of us are optimistic, that we we kind of think that this is such a good idea.
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:06.320
If I just build it, then they will come.
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:08.719
Then customers will find out about it.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.280
But unless you're talking about it, they won't.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:12.400
No one will.
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:19.119
And so go to market is such a crucial element, and you want to be doing that as early as as possible.
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:25.760
Sell it, then build it is always a much better way around than build it, then sell it, as you're finding with your new features.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:27.920
So I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap it up there.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.519
That's pretty much exactly the hour.
00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:32.800
Thank you so much for for sharing, Caroline.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:38.159
I know that uh it's been uh uh a fun journey, but it hasn't all been plain sailing.
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:41.440
So it's nice to hear your uh your honest perspective.
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:43.360
Thank you so much.
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:51.039
I hope it can help someone to get the realistic view of what it's like building a business nowadays.
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:59.679
Yeah, I think I think for me the the big thing that you said there that really resonates with me is how long it takes.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:09.920
Because I don't I don't I I think I've invested, and you know this, I've invested in 65 companies and I've invested in a bunch more through three funds that I backed.
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:10.480
Yeah.
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:19.119
In all of those companies, I can't think of one company that has grown faster than they expected.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:25.920
And I think from from my perspective, certainly as an investor, they've all grown much slower than I hoped.
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:28.320
And so I'm sure that's true for the founders as well.
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:30.400
They all think, God, this is a slog.
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:32.400
This is not what I was expecting.
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.280
And uh I don't you don't hear that talked about very often.
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:56.559
But yeah, if you're if you're you know my age, you're or or younger like you, and you but you're you're still mid-career, and you've got uh mortgages, or you bought bought them at a nice flat, or you or you know, you're you're spending your money on you you need to find money every month to keep your head above water, then that's a key consideration, how long it's gonna take.
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:00.159
I think people think they're gonna build their business and sell it in three years.
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:01.840
It's not gonna happen.
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:05.280
You you might build it and sell it within 10 if you're lucky.
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:09.840
But uh yeah, take your time, don't rush, yeah, don't quit.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:11.360
Definitely.
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:12.159
Cool.
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:14.559
Okay, last thing I'm gonna ask you.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:18.400
How do people find you and find out more about Clever?
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:30.559
So if people are uh curious about uh flexible benefits and how employees can build their own packages, obviously uh we consider HR and payroll.
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:36.960
Admin can't be too heavy, and payroll needs to be compliant, is just to visit cleverbenefits.com.
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:37.760
Brilliant.
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:39.280
All right, thanks, Caroline.
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:50.880
And if you liked that interview and you'd like more of the same, look for Founder Stories on YouTube under DQVentures Official or find it wherever you get your podcast.
