Ep 84 Abigail Forsyth: The KeepCup Story - Leading the Reusable Cup Revolution

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Welcome to the For Love and Money podcast, the show where business and social
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purpose meet to inspire a movement for positive change.
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Here's your host, Carolyn Butler-Madden.
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On today's episode of the For Love and Money podcast, I'm speaking with Abigail
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Forsyth, OAM, a leader in the global campaign to promote sustainability.
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Now, Abigail is co-founder and managing director of KeepCup.
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Since launching the world's first barista standard reusable cup in 2009,
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KeepCup is now embraced by re-users the world over, diverting millions of single-use cups daily.
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KeepCup is in business for better. They're a certified B Corporation,
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a living wage employer and member of 1% for the planet, donating at least 1%
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of global revenue to environmental causes.
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Abigail has been honoured with an Order of Australia medal in the General Division
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for her years of outstanding service to sustainable design on the Queen's birthday list for 2020.
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Now, Abigail has opened offices and warehouses in Australia and the UK and set
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up hub operations in the USA to service growing consumer demand in over 76 countries around the world.
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But the business has stayed loyal to its roots.
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Keep Cups HQ is located in the Melbourne suburb of Clifton Hill,
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where Abigail lives with her family.
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In this interview today, we explore Abigail's entrepreneurial journey from law
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to entrepreneurship, what triggered the idea of KeepCup and how Abigail and
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her brother Jamie started the business.
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She shares the joy of the early years of the business, taking us on the journey
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of its evolution against the context of shifting market perceptions and the
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impact of the pandemic, which was massive.
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We talk about her leadership style and how important it's been to the success
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of the business, and we discuss the vital importance of profitability in building
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a purpose-driven business.
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Abigail also shares her personal passion for sustainable living and protecting native forests.
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For listeners curious about building an enduring business driven by a higher
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purpose, this episode will give you some great insights with no holds barred
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on the bumps in the road that it takes to sustain success. I hope you enjoy it.
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Abigail, welcome to the For Love and Money podcast. Thank you so much for joining
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us. Ah, thank you very much for having me.
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Kick off with the first question I ask all guests on this show,
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which is when you think about purpose in business, is there a role for love?
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It's always a role for love. I thought you might say that. Tell me more.
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I think, well, I mean, at the baseline, we're all emotional creatures.
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We all make decisions with our feelings and then justify them rationally.
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So, yeah, there's always a role for love, whether it's the team you're working
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with, the mission that you're on, the advantages you get, even the love of the
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deal, even the love of winning is a lot.
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Absolutely, absolutely. And you're so right, that idea that we do make decisions
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emotionally and justify them rationally.
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It's amazing how many people don't seem to understand that in some ways.
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And, you know, with purpose, there is such an opportunity as you have proven with KeepCup.
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So I'd love you to share a bit of your backstory and some of the key experiences
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that brought you to doing what you are doing today. I hear you started in law.
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I did start in law. Yes, I was a lawyer working in a small Melbourne firm and
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I didn't really enjoy the law degree.
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Like I was a kid who got the marks and did it for probably that reason alone.
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But I really loved working and I worked in a small firm. I had a great mentor
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who was a really clever man with great attention to detail, which is probably
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not my skill set, so he was a good foil for me.
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But, you know, a lot of the time the advice I was giving was more around,
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I was more into the business side of the advice and, you know,
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walk away from the legal, like walk away from the court, don't go there was
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probably the base where I would begin.
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And at the same time my brother was calling me every week with a new business idea.
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He was in the UK and he'd seen veterinary supermarkets, he'd seen Pret-a-Manger.
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And, yeah, I look back now at like 24 saying to mum and dad,
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And I was the first generation to go to university and saying to them,
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I'm going to stop doing law and open a cafe. I think they would just like.
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But where did this entrepreneurship come from? Was it in the family?
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Yeah, it's in the family. So on mum's side, my grandfather was a plumber and
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a chicken farmer and, you know, in the Great Depression, he ran around on a
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motorbike to, you know, get the jobs first.
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And he was a very can-do, you know, the can-do Aussie guy.
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And then on the other side, no, and then Dad. Dad started his own business as
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well. So it was in the blood.
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I think it is bread in the bone a bit, that attitude.
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Yeah, absolutely. So, yes, keep going. Sorry to interrupt.
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So then Jamie's pulling up with these ideas and so we opened these stores called
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Blue Bag in the city in the late 90s and it was like really based on the Pret
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idea that it's all convenience culture and it was the late 90s that, you'd know,
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a laptop in one hand, a disposable cup in the other, that was a bit of a status symbol.
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And then over time, I just became more concerned about the amount of packaging
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we were going through as a business.
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It was also the rise of coffee, like takeaway coffee.
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Like there wasn't really any takeaway coffee until the late 90s, like fairly new thing.
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Found out they weren't disposable, went to Maya to buy some to sell in our stores
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so people could reuse, found they didn't get under the group heads.
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They were giant sort of, I mean, they're what's fashionable now,
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like the giant family thermos.
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And I was like, who would want to carry that ugly thing?
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I still don't get it. You know, with that, I guess, entrepreneurial spirit,
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we designed our own and thought they were pretty great really, what we designed.
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And then we went to tooling manufacturer in Victoria who's like,
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oh, my God, this is just a cup. What are you thinking?
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Like I've got millions of dollars worth of tools here in my warehouse for people
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who had much better ideas than you, but they couldn't sell them.
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So you've got to be able to sell your idea. So from there, we called up through
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the catering arm of Blue Bag at the time.
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We called up different businesses, got to the facilities manager.
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They didn't want it because they were making a margin off buying disposable packaging.
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Got to sustainability. They didn't have a budget at all and then got to marketing
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and said, hey, there's a disconnect here.
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Like you're trying to get six-star green buildings, you've got solar on the
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roof but everyone's sucking out of a non-disposable paper or plastic cup.
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Why don't you try Keep Cup? So we got an order for $5,000 off NAB and an order
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for $5,000 off Energy Australia before we'd even made the product. Wow.
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Wow, that's a huge win. Yeah, and that was like, wait till you get the PO, he couldn't believe it.
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And that was through the marketing departments of both companies.
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Yeah. Yeah, interesting, really interesting.
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And then it sort of just rolled on from there. And I think, you know,
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we had designed the Australian and New Zealand style of drinking coffee with
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the light roast, the smaller volumes was really being exported to the world at the time.
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And then we designed a cup that was suitable for that style of drinking.
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And then it was people were thinking about this issue.
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Like the first market we did, people were like, oh, I've been thinking about this.
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This is my business idea. So our timing was really good and it was something
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that was just, you know, I think when ideas catch hold, they're sort of just
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a little bit ahead of where everyone's thinking.
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Yeah, absolutely. And so when was this that you actually launched? 2009.
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Yeah, okay. So you'd gone from the late 90s where you'd actually started to
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think about it to so probably around 10 years, was it?
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Yeah, well, it was like the late 90s was the start of, like in the late 90s,
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the disposable, the single-use cups stood out in the Australian landscape,
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like nothing much was packaged. Yeah.
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And now everything's packaged. Like it's just bananas. It's gone the opposite
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way to the way it should have.
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Yeah, and so that convenience, I mean, convenience culture is one of the strategic
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pillars of BPs, what they're trying to do.
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That's how they're going to keep the fossil fuel industry going with plastic packaging.
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Yeah, wow. Wow.
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So tell me, so this is 2009, you launched.
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You obviously had some big customers when you launched.
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What were the early days like? They were so fun.
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They were so fun and so hectic. So you've left Blue Bag behind at this stage?
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Yeah, we sold Blue Bag pretty much straight away.
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I was very much in the selling space. I loved the behaviour change part of it.
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I loved the sustainability story. I loved the sort of the virality of it,
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like getting people to – and it was a time where you would walk down the street
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and if someone had a keep cut, you'd sort of, you know. Yeah,
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right. Love that. I bet you're in the club.
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It really took hold in all the independent cafe scene, like you go into a cafe,
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a barista, you go, oh, nice, you know, good on you, nice keep cup.
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Like it was very, that was a super- Very tribal.
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Yeah, it was tribal. Yeah, you're right. And that tribe just kept, you know, growing.
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We attended a lot of cafe shows around the world, so specialty coffee,
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and they were a lovely bunch of people. So you met great people that were,
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they were interested in coffee, I was interested in sustainability.
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It all sort of came together pretty nicely.
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And then internally as an organisation, like people would be like,
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what's my career path or, you know, and I'd be like, I don't know.
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Like I didn't really set out to, like the organisation was a by-product of what
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we were trying to do in a way. That's being purpose-led.
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Yeah. So and B Corp actually was a bit of a saviour for us.
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So we were under founding B Corps in 2014, but it was the process of becoming
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one and having to have an org chart, right position descriptions,
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like all that sort of stuff, which probably most businesses do automatically,
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we built it out of the B Corp model.
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Yeah, right. Because, I mean, my business is a micro business,
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but we're B Corp certified and the number of light bulb moments that went off in my head.
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I mean, it is good business. It's like a blueprint of good business practice. Yeah, absolutely.
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And so how quickly did you grow then?
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Super quick. So I have two brothers. My younger brother was travelling with
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his partner at the time and we said, oh, I just started in the UK.
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It'll be, that'll be easy. Yeah.
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It was, I mean, it was a completely different market. Everyone over there in 2010 was drinking tea.
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It was, but we got in at ground zero of that specialty coffee scene in London and the UK.
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So, and then, so that was 2010 and in 2013, we opened in the US. So we had an office in LA.
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And did I read somewhere you're in 75 countries now?
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I don't know if we are still, but yes, we certainly were. Wow,
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that's absolutely incredible.
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Yeah, it really took off around the world and yeah.
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And so can you share some of the biggest challenges you faced in those early days?
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Yes, so managing people, managing people, managing people. Yeah.
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I guess growing the business and understanding.
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Still it was like often like so employment,
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the employment law is one thing but then how that
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gets interpreted by people it's the interpretation of it and the nuance of it
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that you really have to learn about how people like to work how they how you
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do business how how people respond like in in the states people go that was
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great meeting great meeting we'll be in touch and you know you'll never hear from them again.
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All the cultural things in australia you know they're gonna get in touch with
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you again so But it's just like different ways of communicating.
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I think the rapid growth of the demand like was pretty intense as well.
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So making sure that our production could keep up with the demand and then shipping it all over the world.
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So, yeah, just a steep learning curve all round really.
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And I just want to go back to sales because you mentioned sales before and when
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you were talking about it, you had a big smile on your face.
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Yeah. Like how, tell me about that. Like in those early days,
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what was sales like for you?
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It was just so fun because you were convincing people to replace a single-use
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item with a reusable item.
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So there was a real sense of kind of, you know, the business, you were doing good.
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It was also, you know, really profitable and really fun to get these products
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on board and then see them out in the street.
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And I guess for the right people, the sense of camaraderie in being engaged in something bigger.
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Yeah. And I asked because one of my previous guests was talking about sales.
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Her product is a, it's Byron Cello. It's a Limoncello product.
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And she talks about, when she talked about sales, she said, oh my God, it's not selling.
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I just have the most amazing conversations with the most wonderful people.
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And I got that sense from your big beaming smile.
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Yeah. Yeah. It's about having an open conversation then.
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Like, I just like, I mean, I guess I must be a sales person at heart.
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Like, it's about finding the lever in the conversation that's going to unlock
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problem solving for the person that you're talking to.
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It's fun. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
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And so you're in London in 2010. You're in the US in 2013.
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Take us through the timeline. Yeah.
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Yeah, so that's all going pretty well. Well, we launch our glass product around
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2014, 2015, so the glass and the cork, and that just, it probably takes a while.
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It probably takes a couple of years, but by 2017, 18, that product is flying
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and it's really, you know, it's like it has a sense of organicness to it,
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the beautiful cork band, the glass, like it's doing super well.
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And then in 2017, Craig Rewcastle does War on Waste and goes on to a Melbourne
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tram and says, you know, talks about single use.
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And then in the UK, they do a war on waste and Blue Planet too.
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And like it doubles the business overnight.
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Wow. So it was huge. And it was a huge around the time of this sense that if
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we all band together, it's all about individual behaviour change.
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If we all change our behaviour, then, you know, the world changes with us.
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And it's a very positive and very empowering sort of feeling and living by your
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values and having that become a viral thing is pretty powerful.
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But then in the climate march, like so then the climate march is at 2018,
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2019 and I remember seeing an Extinction Rebellion poster saying keep cups won't save us.
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And so the tide sort of started to shift a little for us because we.
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Well, a few things were happening. There was loan schemes, there was compostable
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cups, like the clarity of that vision around single use and reuse was starting
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to get muddied by other people's ideas about how to solve the problem.
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Some big competitors entered the market as well.
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So you've got your Yetis and your Stanleys and you're really seeing.
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You know, I'm lying in bed at night thinking, oh, my God, like we've sold all these cups.
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Am I part of the solution or am I part of the problem? them like
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have people got too many keep cups and yet
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these bigger companies are probably like oh my god they haven't even touched
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the sides of what this could be yeah and then
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covid happened um starbucks banned reusables
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mcdonald's banned reusables like the whole thing
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just i remember that so clearly
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it was you you just got this sense of oh
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yeah and it was you know i i
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had some personal challenges in that time as well
00:17:17.364 --> 00:17:21.584
around in my family and it just was like oh you
00:17:21.584 --> 00:17:25.444
know single use and hygiene just became linked
00:17:25.444 --> 00:17:28.264
you know we'd done so much work to pull those things
00:17:28.264 --> 00:17:31.044
apart yeah I mean when we started in
00:17:31.044 --> 00:17:33.804
2009 I got a a letter from the
00:17:33.804 --> 00:17:38.564
premier of Victoria saying there was no legislative impediment
00:17:38.564 --> 00:17:41.424
to refilling cups there was no hygiene issue because
00:17:41.424 --> 00:17:44.124
people didn't believe it they thought that the when we
00:17:44.124 --> 00:17:47.304
first started people thought that the reason we were using takeaway
00:17:47.304 --> 00:17:50.744
cups was hygiene like right requirement
00:17:50.744 --> 00:17:53.584
right and so we had
00:17:53.584 --> 00:17:58.084
to prove that was a common that that was a that was a common perception yes
00:17:58.084 --> 00:18:03.964
amongst people yeah yeah wow and so that's like that's been glued together again
00:18:03.964 --> 00:18:09.044
like I get so frustrated when I go I go to a cafe that's near a hospital and
00:18:09.044 --> 00:18:12.484
everyone's down in their scrubs getting their coffee.
00:18:12.624 --> 00:18:15.504
And it's like, no, no, those scrubs were supposed to be the high,
00:18:15.624 --> 00:18:19.604
like, but now everyone puts plastic over and then it goes in the bin.
00:18:19.724 --> 00:18:22.544
It's just eye-wrenching the amount of.
00:18:23.184 --> 00:18:26.544
So we've gone backwards. Absolutely backwards. And, you know,
00:18:26.664 --> 00:18:29.684
that was, yeah, hygiene and single use.
00:18:29.804 --> 00:18:35.744
And so that happened and then I think also people saw how quickly governments could act to, you know,
00:18:36.104 --> 00:18:39.124
lock us in our homes, to do all these things it's like well why aren't
00:18:39.124 --> 00:18:42.524
you doing that for some of the other bigger more intractable problems
00:18:42.524 --> 00:18:46.384
we've got in our society and that whole sense
00:18:46.384 --> 00:18:51.904
of hey why why why are individuals responsible it's actually systemic change
00:18:51.904 --> 00:18:55.744
that we need to happen and we need it to happen really fast so what i'm sweating
00:18:55.744 --> 00:19:01.524
over my single use cup when the fossil fuel companies continue to open more
00:19:01.524 --> 00:19:05.684
coal mines or you know people are flying in their private jets around the world, there was that,
00:19:06.243 --> 00:19:10.563
A real sense, I think, of inequity happened and KeepCut because we'd been so
00:19:10.563 --> 00:19:14.523
strong on that sustainability and individual behaviour change.
00:19:14.683 --> 00:19:17.663
We really felt the brunt of that as a brand through our messaging.
00:19:18.003 --> 00:19:19.483
So how did you get through that?
00:19:21.663 --> 00:19:25.443
A lot of looking at it. It's what Dad said. If you want to blame someone,
00:19:25.443 --> 00:19:26.523
go and look in the mirror.
00:19:29.343 --> 00:19:32.203
Brutal. A lot of introspection around that.
00:19:32.383 --> 00:19:37.423
Yeah. I did hire in some people to become sort of a management team.
00:19:37.423 --> 00:19:42.503
I guess I lost my confidence in my ability to steer the business to the next phase.
00:19:43.383 --> 00:19:49.583
But I made errors there because I sort of let go of the wheel and it didn't really work.
00:19:49.683 --> 00:19:53.143
And probably they were the worst hiring decisions I've ever made because I wasn't
00:19:53.143 --> 00:19:54.643
driving that accountability.
00:19:55.123 --> 00:20:00.043
And, you know, you forget how much of the business is your own secret source
00:20:00.043 --> 00:20:06.023
that is driving the culture and driving the strategic direction of the brand
00:20:06.023 --> 00:20:10.203
without you even necessarily having some strategic plan.
00:20:10.223 --> 00:20:12.323
It's like it's how you do stuff.
00:20:12.423 --> 00:20:17.643
Absolutely. And I actually want to come back to that in a moment but keep you
00:20:17.643 --> 00:20:19.363
on the track that you're going.
00:20:19.823 --> 00:20:26.843
And, I mean, when you say you lost confidence at that time and you brought a management team in,
00:20:27.003 --> 00:20:30.583
would it be fair to say that maybe at that
00:20:30.583 --> 00:20:33.583
point because you'd lost confidence your motivations were
00:20:33.583 --> 00:20:37.023
less about the change you wanted to create in the world and more
00:20:37.023 --> 00:20:40.323
about how do we survive this oh yeah absolutely you
00:20:40.323 --> 00:20:45.903
know you build a beast that you have to keep feeding yeah 100 so you start to
00:20:45.903 --> 00:20:50.963
make decisions that maybe not really but you know that starts to be the driver
00:20:50.963 --> 00:20:56.243
rather than that that the fun and joy of those early days where you're driving
00:20:56.243 --> 00:20:58.803
behaviour change and getting stuff done.
00:21:01.743 --> 00:21:05.163
Enjoying the podcast? If you're looking for more inspiration,
00:21:05.463 --> 00:21:10.843
head to our website, thecauseeffect.com.au for more resources on how you can
00:21:10.843 --> 00:21:13.323
start using your business as a force for good.
00:21:13.703 --> 00:21:18.723
Or buy the For Love and Money book. Every copy sold allows us to protect one
00:21:18.723 --> 00:21:19.963
square metre of rainforest.
00:21:24.423 --> 00:21:24.463
Thank you.
00:21:25.499 --> 00:21:29.999
So you brought the management team in, bad decision, exited them? Yep.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:34.179
So that's all very painful, takes up a lot of time and mental energy.
00:21:35.979 --> 00:21:42.939
And also, I guess, that realisation that was also painful is that we started
00:21:42.939 --> 00:21:46.079
off as an innovative product, but that doesn't last forever.
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:48.039
You're not an innovation forever.
00:21:48.459 --> 00:21:50.759
And now we're a lifestyle brand.
00:21:51.219 --> 00:21:54.419
I mean, we do things in a particular way.
00:21:54.419 --> 00:22:00.559
We have a particular take on the world and how we want people to engage with
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.639
the brand, but we're a lifestyle brand and we are selling a product that ultimately
00:22:04.639 --> 00:22:08.659
you don't need a single-use cup, but you don't really need a keep cup either.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:13.739
You know, it's not, you know, we're not saving the world. Extinction Rebellion, we're right.
00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:21.579
Yeah, so I guess it's that shift that we've had to make and I've had to make
00:22:21.579 --> 00:22:27.999
personally that's probably been the most, difficult. So how do you see the business now?
00:22:28.179 --> 00:22:32.539
I mean, you said it's not innovation-led, it's lifestyle-led,
00:22:32.679 --> 00:22:37.599
but in your mind, you know, you're still driven by that purpose,
00:22:37.879 --> 00:22:39.619
the environmental purpose?
00:22:39.939 --> 00:22:43.739
Yeah, I mean, that's still what lights me up, but it's, you know,
00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:49.219
we do, like, for, I mean, we were so fortunate that for, what.
00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:54.579
15, no, 10, 10 years, we were just a two-product business.
00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:58.719
We sold two products. Amazing. We used to always go, oh, you need more products.
00:22:58.819 --> 00:23:00.879
I'm like, why? Why do we need more products?
00:23:01.139 --> 00:23:06.279
Well, now we do. We do to compete. We need more products because people are
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:14.639
coming and if you don't have an offer that meets a lot of needs then it's challenging to exist. Yeah.
00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:23.219
Yeah. And so what are your current core products and what is their connection to sustainability?
00:23:24.284 --> 00:23:31.064
So I guess our sort of our get out of jail moment was the introduction of our cold cup range.
00:23:31.264 --> 00:23:34.644
Yeah. But really, it's just a new lid on the existing products.
00:23:34.824 --> 00:23:38.104
It's still, you know, it's still a fairly sustainable innovation in that we've
00:23:38.104 --> 00:23:40.764
just put a different lid on what we've got.
00:23:40.904 --> 00:23:46.044
But what it is, is it's the next generation of coffee drinkers are less likely
00:23:46.044 --> 00:23:49.164
to use a disposable, like they're drinking cold cups.
00:23:49.344 --> 00:23:51.924
They're drinking ice coffees. They're drinking ice marches.
00:23:52.244 --> 00:23:56.804
They're eating from Maasai bowls. Like it's so, I guess it's meeting people
00:23:56.804 --> 00:24:01.524
where they reach for a disposable item and going, hey, try this instead.
00:24:01.844 --> 00:24:05.804
Yeah. And still back to our sort of very lo-fi origins.
00:24:06.024 --> 00:24:09.904
Like we're not really, it's not a giant thing. It's not a loud thing.
00:24:09.904 --> 00:24:13.984
It's just something that's really easy to use, easy to clean.
00:24:14.204 --> 00:24:19.784
You know, we're now got our plastics 50% recycled, our steels 90% recycled.
00:24:19.784 --> 00:24:25.564
So, you know, we still stick to those core values, but they are things that are going to happen.
00:24:25.904 --> 00:24:34.724
In terms of material changes, we did take some of our waste and make it a unique range two years ago.
00:24:34.924 --> 00:24:40.524
Like we crushed the product and had it remoulded, but that's a pretty boutique thing to do.
00:24:41.024 --> 00:24:45.244
And really those big changes are going to come out of China or come out of big
00:24:45.244 --> 00:24:48.584
manufacturing where they've just got massive waste streams that they are going
00:24:48.584 --> 00:24:53.104
to change over. and everyone, like, it's not going to be so much a point of difference.
00:24:53.404 --> 00:24:57.124
Like, we'll be the vanguard of it because it's around our values,
00:24:57.124 --> 00:25:00.744
but eventually everyone will be 90% recycled steel in these products.
00:25:01.044 --> 00:25:05.864
Yeah, which is great, right? I mean, that's where we want to get and you're
00:25:05.864 --> 00:25:10.064
part of that and you've been part of the movement that drove it in the first
00:25:10.064 --> 00:25:15.944
place. So that counts for so much and, you know, you've got to be so proud of that.
00:25:17.424 --> 00:25:20.824
Well it's got to start with someone right yeah absolutely
00:25:20.824 --> 00:25:23.664
absolutely and if I hadn't started there
00:25:23.664 --> 00:25:26.864
with you it would have started no doubt but perhaps not
00:25:26.864 --> 00:25:35.244
not quite a single-mindedly yep so yeah I want to go back to you talked about
00:25:35.244 --> 00:25:40.384
you know realizing when you when you appointed the management company realizing
00:25:40.384 --> 00:25:45.844
how much your own leadership style drove the business's success,
00:25:46.244 --> 00:25:52.964
how would you describe your leadership style and how do your personal values,
00:25:52.964 --> 00:25:55.764
do you think, influence the culture at KeepCup?
00:25:56.064 --> 00:26:03.044
I think that it's probably, I think my personal leadership style has changed
00:26:03.044 --> 00:26:08.264
because after a period of having a real lack of confidence, I think I've come back.
00:26:08.927 --> 00:26:11.787
More confident to go well I'm just going to be
00:26:11.787 --> 00:26:15.827
who I am I'm just going to be how
00:26:15.827 --> 00:26:19.707
it's you know it's it's my life I've gone this
00:26:19.707 --> 00:26:22.567
far if I'm coming to work I want to enjoy
00:26:22.567 --> 00:26:25.447
it and I want to work with people I like to work with
00:26:25.447 --> 00:26:28.667
like it's flipped back again to from feeding
00:26:28.667 --> 00:26:31.507
the beast to going well actually I'm gonna I'm gonna
00:26:31.507 --> 00:26:35.227
make it how I want to have it so we we
00:26:35.227 --> 00:26:38.287
moved buildings and we fitted out this amazing
00:26:38.287 --> 00:26:42.227
building that we're in now we moved in in November
00:26:42.227 --> 00:26:45.267
2019 so just before COVID and it
00:26:45.267 --> 00:26:49.767
was like triple the size of where oh god and I was like oh my god I'm like toot
00:26:49.767 --> 00:26:56.887
and calm and I've built my built my oh my god and it was built where I had in
00:26:56.887 --> 00:27:00.907
my own office yeah and I was in there for about a year it was when I had the
00:27:00.907 --> 00:27:03.287
management team and I I absolutely hated it.
00:27:03.767 --> 00:27:07.967
I like being out on the floor. I like sort of hearing the chit-chat.
00:27:08.127 --> 00:27:13.427
I like being, you know, there's a joke that I'm probably the most distractible person of the team.
00:27:13.667 --> 00:27:15.887
I'm the one who goes down the most rabbit holes.
00:27:16.167 --> 00:27:20.007
But I like, you know, I like that. I like being around the ideas.
00:27:20.187 --> 00:27:25.107
I like having that very open, very quite flat structure.
00:27:25.447 --> 00:27:29.307
And I think, you know, when the consultants and people came in,
00:27:29.407 --> 00:27:31.627
they're like, oh, you know, you need to make it more hierarchical.
00:27:31.727 --> 00:27:33.447
And, you know, you're getting it all wrong.
00:27:34.267 --> 00:27:39.107
And, you know, it has meant that the business couldn't take that step to commercialise
00:27:39.107 --> 00:27:42.927
and that's okay because that's not, that's never going to be me.
00:27:43.087 --> 00:27:45.867
That's not what I'm, that's not what my skill set is.
00:27:46.047 --> 00:27:49.287
I can't, like, it will be for someone else to do that if that happens.
00:27:49.547 --> 00:27:52.047
Hence why it's a lifestyle business. Yeah.
00:27:53.707 --> 00:27:58.087
And, yeah, I mean, this idea of you've got to scale your business,
00:27:58.427 --> 00:28:01.407
you know, you've got to make it global, you've got to make it,
00:28:01.727 --> 00:28:06.207
multi-million dollar, what's wrong with lifestyle businesses?
00:28:06.967 --> 00:28:08.207
Yeah, and I think.
00:28:09.125 --> 00:28:13.785
Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of, yeah, there was that, I think that the tech,
00:28:13.785 --> 00:28:16.865
the tech trend of what, when did that start?
00:28:17.005 --> 00:28:20.865
Like the 90s and that idea that you run at a loss to get to scale.
00:28:21.345 --> 00:28:24.205
Like that, sure, that makes sense if you're building an app,
00:28:24.285 --> 00:28:27.985
but it doesn't make sense for a business like ours, where if you can't make
00:28:27.985 --> 00:28:32.445
margin on the product that you're making a small scale, you'll never make it
00:28:32.445 --> 00:28:34.125
at a large scale. It's sort of the opposite.
00:28:34.425 --> 00:28:39.585
So, you know, profit has become back in fashion, which is good. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:28:40.005 --> 00:28:43.945
And tell me about innovation. I mean, obviously you,
00:28:44.225 --> 00:28:48.565
and you talked about moving from an innovation basis to a lifestyle business,
00:28:48.685 --> 00:28:55.265
but what drives your innovation process or what has driven in recent years,
00:28:55.505 --> 00:29:00.465
your innovation process and how do you decide what new features or products to develop?
00:29:01.205 --> 00:29:04.705
It's probably a lot of discussion and argument and observation.
00:29:04.805 --> 00:29:07.525
There's probably observation like there's a core team we've got a
00:29:07.525 --> 00:29:10.205
design team we talk about what we see in the
00:29:10.205 --> 00:29:13.065
market we talk about what the opportunities are we talk about
00:29:13.065 --> 00:29:15.925
could we do this what and it's there is a delicate
00:29:15.925 --> 00:29:21.185
balance of what are we doing versus what is everyone else doing um so you can't
00:29:21.185 --> 00:29:25.585
be too you need to keep your eye on that but you can't be too distracted by
00:29:25.585 --> 00:29:30.405
it you need to keep doing what you're doing and what works for you yeah yeah
00:29:30.405 --> 00:29:33.245
I mean I think probably the thing it's like I'm like But, you know,
00:29:33.825 --> 00:29:36.265
ultimately the most sustainable thing we could do is shut the business.
00:29:37.032 --> 00:29:40.272
Well, you could say that about a lot of businesses. Everything.
00:29:41.072 --> 00:29:44.152
So it's that. Slow it down. Stop thinking about growth.
00:29:44.352 --> 00:29:46.792
It's probably from that point of view you go, well, why are we here?
00:29:46.932 --> 00:29:49.152
What are we going to deliver that's worth delivering?
00:29:49.312 --> 00:29:52.252
And you do get to a point where you're like, well, we need to make products
00:29:52.252 --> 00:29:58.392
that are fun, that people enjoy using, that, you know, elevate the drinking experience or the eat.
00:29:58.492 --> 00:30:02.732
Like you get to those places. And so it's probably there that we,
00:30:02.912 --> 00:30:08.332
but again, it's where are people using something single use and how can we intervene
00:30:08.332 --> 00:30:12.372
to make it reusable and make it fairly seamless.
00:30:12.772 --> 00:30:18.532
And what does the business look like today? Where are you operating? How many in your team?
00:30:19.212 --> 00:30:23.792
So in the peak, we had 85 staff.
00:30:24.172 --> 00:30:29.152
Yep. And now we've got about 40. And so we shut down.
00:30:29.332 --> 00:30:32.692
I was about to sign a lease in the US in February 2020.
00:30:33.392 --> 00:30:37.192
Oh, God. Oh, God. But you didn't. I didn't, didn't sign it.
00:30:37.312 --> 00:30:40.472
So, and we were getting, like they were, we got tipped out of where we were.
00:30:40.572 --> 00:30:44.172
So, we moved to 3PL in the US, which has probably been a pretty good move.
00:30:44.452 --> 00:30:48.852
Yeah. Still got the team in the UK and then the team here, you know,
00:30:48.932 --> 00:30:52.692
because the other thing is we were a pretty analog sort of business.
00:30:52.872 --> 00:30:58.252
A lot of our business came from cafe and retail and now we've had to,
00:30:58.532 --> 00:31:03.752
you know, pivot pretty quickly to become much more adept at e-com and tech.
00:31:03.752 --> 00:31:07.012
So are you 100% e-com now? No.
00:31:07.572 --> 00:31:12.472
No. No. We're still in retail, still in cafes, still do a lot of corporate orders as well.
00:31:12.532 --> 00:31:15.952
So gifting for corporates, that sort of thing. Yep. Yeah.
00:31:17.612 --> 00:31:23.172
So I'd like to ask you to sort of reflect back on your whole journey and,
00:31:23.192 --> 00:31:28.592
you know, looking back, what are you most proud of?
00:31:30.191 --> 00:31:35.351
I don't know, probably like nothing to do with work really. Do you mean about
00:31:35.351 --> 00:31:36.671
work or is it everything?
00:31:40.071 --> 00:31:43.491
Whatever feels like the right area to go in for you.
00:31:43.651 --> 00:31:50.331
I think I'm proud of the change that we started, but I'm also very aware that
00:31:50.331 --> 00:31:52.151
if it wasn't us, it would have been someone else.
00:31:52.331 --> 00:31:59.071
So we were just, you know, there was a moment that we took hold of and I ran
00:31:59.071 --> 00:32:02.151
with it. I ran as hard as I could, as fast as I could and did it.
00:32:02.311 --> 00:32:06.211
And so I'm really proud of that and the team that we built along the way to
00:32:06.211 --> 00:32:07.651
do it. Like that's been fun.
00:32:08.011 --> 00:32:11.971
And then I'm proud, most proud probably of my family and my friends and,
00:32:11.971 --> 00:32:15.931
you know, and that's, that's what, that's what I'm here for.
00:32:16.551 --> 00:32:21.151
And, you know, the work's, the work's the work. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:22.011 --> 00:32:27.411
And, and that, the balance of profit and purpose, like how do you manage that
00:32:27.411 --> 00:32:28.911
in a business like KeepCup?
00:32:29.471 --> 00:32:32.331
I'm really interested in profit. Yeah.
00:32:33.551 --> 00:32:37.171
Absolutely. It's the lifeblood of any business. The thing is as well,
00:32:37.311 --> 00:32:41.611
like we've given hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars to Bob Brown,
00:32:41.871 --> 00:32:44.671
to Wires, to Sea Shepherd.
00:32:44.991 --> 00:32:48.171
You can't do that if you're not making profit. You can't do it.
00:32:48.251 --> 00:32:54.871
So your ability to affect change is directly linked to how profitable you are
00:32:54.871 --> 00:32:57.271
and also the pressure that you're under.
00:32:57.271 --> 00:33:00.571
Like when you're profitable you can make a few mistakes without like
00:33:00.571 --> 00:33:04.171
you know losing sleep at night yeah
00:33:04.171 --> 00:33:07.111
you know and I think that's one of the reasons
00:33:07.111 --> 00:33:09.931
that you know I've kept the business pretty tight because
00:33:09.931 --> 00:33:14.131
I do want to make money I am making money so that I can enjoy the next you know
00:33:14.131 --> 00:33:18.971
30 40 years of my life and spend it with my friends and family and do what I
00:33:18.971 --> 00:33:22.991
want to do when I want to do it like and not just have to feed a beast yeah
00:33:22.991 --> 00:33:27.151
so the freedom the freedom you know for me the profit is freedom.
00:33:27.891 --> 00:33:31.611
Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more, which is why this is called the
00:33:31.611 --> 00:33:33.991
For Love and Money podcast.
00:33:34.531 --> 00:33:38.931
And, you know, apart from, you know, feeding your own needs,
00:33:38.931 --> 00:33:43.611
it's also about if you do want to create change or impact through the business,
00:33:43.811 --> 00:33:47.851
you've got to be profitable and, you know, it's got to be scalable.
00:33:48.471 --> 00:33:52.591
So, yeah. And as you say, that's a really important point as well,
00:33:52.711 --> 00:33:59.531
to be able to make mistakes without completely falling over as a result.
00:33:59.791 --> 00:34:05.631
Yeah. And I think that when I look back at the people I've enjoyed working with
00:34:05.631 --> 00:34:11.831
the most and who've been able to deliver the most impact, they're commercial thinkers always.
00:34:12.663 --> 00:34:16.243
Because I think like, you know, whenever someone goes, what is my budget?
00:34:16.243 --> 00:34:22.863
I'm like, oh, no, no, you don't have some pot of money to just experiment with.
00:34:23.023 --> 00:34:25.103
It's like, what are you going to return for what you're doing?
00:34:25.263 --> 00:34:29.963
And it's when people who, it's people, because that's what I mean by commercial.
00:34:30.123 --> 00:34:33.343
It's like, if I expend this effort, what will the return be?
00:34:33.543 --> 00:34:37.783
And that's the thinking that everyone needs to have.
00:34:38.123 --> 00:34:43.243
What will the impact be? Yeah, absolutely. And what value are you creating for
00:34:43.243 --> 00:34:45.163
the investment that I'm going to put into that?
00:34:45.983 --> 00:34:52.883
100%. So, Abigail, do you have any advice that you'd give to entrepreneurs who
00:34:52.883 --> 00:34:59.503
want to build businesses with a strong, either environmental or social purpose at its heart?
00:34:59.743 --> 00:35:05.183
Like from your learnings, what advice would you give someone thinking of undertaking that?
00:35:06.003 --> 00:35:10.803
It's hard. It's hard because ultimately business is a ruthless beast as well.
00:35:10.803 --> 00:35:15.663
Like you have to be pretty mercenary at some points around the decisions that you make.
00:35:15.703 --> 00:35:21.203
So I think that people who go in with great social purpose or are really,
00:35:21.443 --> 00:35:27.843
you can get eaten alive because you have to make really tough decisions.
00:35:29.243 --> 00:35:31.963
But I would say, that's not very positive, I would
00:35:31.963 --> 00:35:34.743
say that you need to have a
00:35:34.743 --> 00:35:37.943
really strong set of values that you
00:35:37.943 --> 00:35:40.883
stick to and you drive everything through
00:35:40.883 --> 00:35:43.863
that lens like people often say why is your business sustainable it's
00:35:43.863 --> 00:35:46.723
like well it's just every decision we make what power are
00:35:46.723 --> 00:35:49.943
we going to use how are we going to you know what are we going to have for lunch
00:35:49.943 --> 00:35:53.863
how are we get like every single decision you drive through that lens of your
00:35:53.863 --> 00:35:59.483
values and then it just becomes second nature which goes back to that leadership
00:35:59.483 --> 00:36:04.183
style and why that management company didn't work for you at that time.
00:36:05.093 --> 00:36:13.373
So important. So important. So what's next for you personally and for KeepCup?
00:36:14.173 --> 00:36:19.853
For KeepCup, we're just about to launch this very, I've got a fantastic marketing
00:36:19.853 --> 00:36:23.033
team and they've come up with this great marketing campaign that we're about
00:36:23.033 --> 00:36:26.053
to launch this weekend and it's called SipCheck.
00:36:26.893 --> 00:36:30.493
SipCheck. SipCheck. So for old people like me,
00:36:30.593 --> 00:36:34.013
I was like, oh that's cool it's like don't forget your reusable cup
00:36:34.013 --> 00:36:36.893
and your phone and stuff like it's your sip check but no it's about
00:36:36.893 --> 00:36:39.713
more the when you've got your when you
00:36:39.713 --> 00:36:42.573
do your outfit check your fit check so now we're gonna
00:36:42.573 --> 00:36:45.833
co-opt it into the sip check so you show your ah
00:36:45.833 --> 00:36:49.493
so it's just a really fun way
00:36:49.493 --> 00:36:52.513
to get i guess the next generation of
00:36:52.513 --> 00:36:55.853
reusers engage young people know they they understand
00:36:55.853 --> 00:36:58.553
the problems the world faces they don't need to
00:36:58.553 --> 00:37:01.613
be told what they should and shouldn't be doing but how do
00:37:01.613 --> 00:37:04.473
we engage them so I'm pretty excited about and we've
00:37:04.473 --> 00:37:07.213
got some new products we're launching as part of
00:37:07.213 --> 00:37:10.953
this campaign but I'm really it's a fun very authentic
00:37:10.953 --> 00:37:13.853
very you know low-key back to our
00:37:13.853 --> 00:37:17.993
it's sort of back to our our I feel like we're back to our roots back in our
00:37:17.993 --> 00:37:23.813
mojo about how we how we talk to people how we want people to feel yeah fantastic
00:37:23.813 --> 00:37:27.453
and how empowered we want people to feel about you know how they live their
00:37:27.453 --> 00:37:31.773
life so yeah I love it I will look out for that and perhaps if there's,
00:37:31.873 --> 00:37:37.513
I mean, we'll put in the show notes links to Keep Cup so people can check it
00:37:37.513 --> 00:37:40.113
from there, I guess. Do you have a YouTube channel?
00:37:40.533 --> 00:37:44.213
Yes. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll link to that because I'm sure it'll come through
00:37:44.213 --> 00:37:45.893
there. That's fantastic.
00:37:46.273 --> 00:37:55.413
Thank you, Abigail. I'd love to ask you to close with your dream, Abigail's dream.
00:37:56.673 --> 00:38:02.073
And this doesn't have to be work, but just generally, if you could achieve your
00:38:02.073 --> 00:38:05.313
wildest dreams over the next five years,
00:38:06.281 --> 00:38:07.661
You know, with everything you've
00:38:07.661 --> 00:38:14.341
been trying to do, what could it look like? What might it look like?
00:38:14.841 --> 00:38:21.241
I think for me to be living my wildest dreams would be my biggest passion is
00:38:21.241 --> 00:38:23.801
the protection of native forests.
00:38:24.241 --> 00:38:31.041
And, you know, that's what I would like to spend the rest of my life focused on.
00:38:31.561 --> 00:38:41.441
Yeah. and certainly here in Australia, it's something that we do need to focus on, isn't it?
00:38:42.481 --> 00:38:48.141
So being out, from a recreational point of view, being in those wild places,
00:38:48.361 --> 00:38:53.401
I walked Lara Pinta last year with my daughter and that was just one of the
00:38:53.401 --> 00:38:55.801
most magical places I've been on earth.
00:38:56.121 --> 00:39:03.061
So spending time in nature, protecting nature, looking after those things is
00:39:03.061 --> 00:39:05.981
how I'd like to spend the rest of my, that's my wildest dream.
00:39:06.221 --> 00:39:09.821
Wonderful. And that lots of more people get to enjoy those places.
00:39:09.821 --> 00:39:17.281
I think they're so important to our psychological health as individuals but also as a community,
00:39:17.561 --> 00:39:20.421
like I think, and that's increasingly being recognised by people,
00:39:20.421 --> 00:39:25.201
how important those nature-based living is.
00:39:25.441 --> 00:39:30.921
And to be able to, I went to Central Australia last year on an Intrepid Travel
00:39:30.921 --> 00:39:36.701
First Nations-led tour five-day experience, which was incredible.
00:39:37.241 --> 00:39:43.601
And I felt that we were completely disconnected, you know, from our phones.
00:39:44.021 --> 00:39:50.841
Yeah. And to have that ability to not have, you know, you can't look at your
00:39:50.841 --> 00:39:52.121
phone, you're not connected.
00:39:52.681 --> 00:39:57.781
Yeah. It just puts you in a completely different headspace. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:58.921 --> 00:40:02.201
Yeah such an amazing opportunity that's a
00:40:02.201 --> 00:40:05.421
beautiful dream thank you for sharing that with us and thank
00:40:05.421 --> 00:40:12.401
you for sharing your time and your story it has been really insightful for me
00:40:12.401 --> 00:40:16.261
and i think our listeners will get a lot of value out of it and yeah i just
00:40:16.261 --> 00:40:20.061
really appreciate the work you've done abigail so thank you thank you thanks
00:40:20.061 --> 00:40:22.861
for you thanks enjoy the conversation thanks very much,
00:40:34.241 --> 00:40:38.741
thanks for listening to this episode of the for love and money podcast if you'd
00:40:38.741 --> 00:40:43.421
like to take a deeper dive into the purpose movement visit us at thecauseeffect.com.au
00:40:43.421 --> 00:40:49.861
and remember doing good is good for business so if you're not doing good then what are you doing.