ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How do images add or take away from a written story?

What is Visual Literacy in the Modern World?

What is the future of art in visual storytelling?

Our guest is Patrick McEvoy - an artist working in comics, illustration and multimedia animation, working professionally for over 25 years.

"In terms of genre, I've done Fantasy, SF, horror, and educational work (for ages ranging from kids to high school to college)."

"In the past I have worked on contract with Marvel, doing dozens of pictures for the Marvel Style Guide, lots of advertising, and other behind-the-scenes art. And you may have seen my work on a lot of game art, such as Arkham Horror, Call of Cthulhu, Warcraft CCG, Legend of the Five rings, and even about 100 cards for the Game of Thrones CCG."

Folktellers Studios | Folktellers Universe

#Storytelling

#Folktellers

#Stories

#PatrickMcEvoy

#VisualStorytelling

Well,
welcome everyone to the folk tellers stories to be shared podcast.
It's week 11 and we're talking about 1000 words,
the power of pictures,
paint and visual storytelling.
And I wanted to,
uh,
before I warm everyone up with our little thoughts for the day,
let's introduce my compatriots.
We have the stunning Steve Sadler.
Oh,
I like that word.
Do you know why?
Because I understand that word and the uh incomparable,
that's good.
There's two words we can understand and you can feel good about yourself.
So I appreciate it.
I just can't believe this has been a week 11 now.
I mean,
that's unbelievable,
but it's a good thing.
They say time flies and having fun,
but it's still fun.
We're still having fun.
That's what I'm saying.
This is work and this is,
this is a conundrum.
This is a OK.
All right.
So here we are week 11,
we're talking about visual storytelling power of pictures.
Um We're gonna have uh Patrick mcavoy on a little bit in a little bit.
Um Patrick's a uh incredible artist.
He does a lot of work for folk tellers and he's a big fan of Jack Kirby and people don't know who Jack Kirby is.
Jack Kirby was um the Marvel artist who came up with all the biggies.
He came up with the Hulk and Spiderman.
And you know,
it's funny,
people always think Stan Lee.
Stan Lee wasn't an artist.
He was a writer.
Uh Jack Kirby was the one who came up with,
with the,
the look,
the,
that the Marvel look.
So one of the things Jack Kirby said was says,
I achieve perfection.
My type of perfection through visual storytelling,
storytelling was my style.
And then I've got another quote here.
It says um this is Anthony Demelo.
Um He's a uh he,
I think he's actually a priest and uh uh he's a famous storyteller speaker.
Um You have to understand that the shortest distance between a human being and the truth is a story.
So those are our two icebreakers,
gentlemen.
Like,
so one of the first big questions is we're gonna get into visual storytelling.
So to you,
what,
what do you think visual storytelling is?
I leave the floor open.
Well,
uh an image is 1000 words,
right?
Yeah.
Pick a picture or a picture is 1000 words.
I don't know what,
what is the the exact phrase we're supposed to be a picture is worth 1000 words or an image,
right?
Or an image,
right?
Well,
we,
we're in digital today.
What does that mean?
We'll,
we'll use image because what,
what what does that really mean?
Is that true or is that just a absolutely sure it is.
I could look at an image and,
and pull a lot of context out of that image just by looking at it just like I can if I'm driving my car down the road,
I mean,
that's an image that or,
you know,
or a picture that I'm looking at,
right as I'm driving and uh and I'm pulling that story out of it.
So,
yeah,
definitely without,
without words.
So from an audience perspective,
and this is what,
what,
what I found as,
as a writer,
um as a writer,
what I've chosen or what's been put upon me is the uh the craft that takes the longest to engage with uh where visual media,
it's instantaneous,
like music like you hear,
you hear a couple notes or you see something visually.
Um There's an immediate response reaction and either rejection or engagement where in writing it's like you have to read it,
you have to process it and then you have to reflect on it before you're really engaging with it.
So it's a,
it's a much longer process.
So,
Kurt,
what's your take?
Yeah,
for me,
you've brought up music it because we did a couple of episodes uh or a couple of episodes ago,
we talked about music.
To me,
it's the lyrics and,
and the melody coming together.
That's where the story with the visuals come together,
right?
It's like the music has the melody line,
but then you have the lyrics that match it with,
with the vision part of it.
To me it's a,
it's a,
I have to see the vision match the narrative.
In other words,
I could have this story.
But when I see an image that attaches to it,
oh my God,
you,
you know,
you brought up about Marvel,
I mean,
think about the imagery of those characters that are part of the story,
part of the narrative.
That's the powerful part of it.
I mean,
I can look at an image from Marvel and say,
oh yeah,
I know exactly who that is without knowing a story without seeing the story.
Then why do people say I saw the movie and the book was better?
Why do you think that's such a common statement?
My daughter is a big reader.
I mean,
she's the kind of person that could actually pick up like a Harry novel,
Harry Potter.
Harry novel.
It was a slip there,
a Harry Potter novel and she can literally read that book in a day.
I could,
I could never do that.
It would take me a month to read every time that she sees the movie.
She goes,
well,
that's not as good as the book.
And I'm like,
well,
why isn't it?
She goes because in her mind,
you're,
you're,
you create a mental picture while you're reading and many times it's better than what they can ever come up with in Hollywood.
Well,
I think part of it too is just simple length.
Right.
You have a 500 page novel like that.
Right.
There,
much more detail can be gotten into and as opposed to a 60 90 you know,
even a three hour movie.
Right.
There's only so much time you have for that.
Yeah.
There,
there's greater constraints from a production standpoint,
I think on,
on doing a feature film,
you know,
you've got,
yeah,
you've got 90 minutes or,
or whatever,
whatever the standard is.
So if they're adapting from a book,
you know,
a book,
you just can keep writing more pages,
you know,
more series.
Yeah.
So,
yeah,
I think,
I think that's one of the challenges uh in that there's,
there's more constraints so the book can have more,
usually has more detail to it,
especially JK Rawlings.
I mean,
she is very detailed in her stories.
Yes.
Right to the,
you know,
the color of the wood and the texture of the door handles and stuff like that.
So that's a good point,
Stephen,
because the visual doesn't necessarily have to be an actual visual.
It could be something created in our mind from reading that it's a,
it's a mental picture that,
that you're making.
But when we talk to Patrick,
you're,
you're gonna understand how his mind works because that's literally what Joseph and I do for him.
We give him that mental picture and he converts it into the beautiful art that he's been doing for many,
many years.
He's just absolutely incredible.
So you guys,
we have our friend and another compatriot,
our art director extraordinaire,
uh Patrick mcilroy.
So a little background on Patrick,
uh he will not tell you this himself,
but he's done a ton of work for Marvel and Disney and Sony.
And he,
I mean,
he really is a,
a incredibly,
not only a talented artist but a visual designer and a visual storyteller himself.
So,
uh Patrick,
great to have you on.
Well,
great to be here.
Thanks.
Uh Yeah,
if you uh ever want me to blow my own horn,
I,
I am happy to,
oh,
well,
by the time we're done,
it's better when someone else gets the ball rolling for me.
Now,
you've just created a visual story for all of us of you blowing your own horn.
Um But we won't go down that rabbit hole.
So Patrick,
we're talking about,
we're talking about visual storytelling.
So I wanna,
I wanna tee this up with you because you are uh now the resident of visual storytelling expert and Patrick,
what we were talking about was um how uh visual storytelling,
visuals and,
and art and all that stuff gives you like music.
When you see it,
it's an immediate engagement or rejection.
Uh But uh you have an immediate uh you know,
visceral reaction,
whether it's looking at a piece of art,
whether it's going to film,
uh watching a film or uh versus,
you know,
versus writing.
And so the way Patrick and I met was,
I was looking for uh folk tellers for the visual,
what,
what this universe would look like.
And I had kind of an idea in my head,
but I ended up,
I interviewed 100 and 50 different artists and then um someone who I worked with on the,
on in my professional work,
uh a colleague said,
hey,
I got a friend I grew up with uh who does,
you know,
he does drawing.
And I was like,
oh OK.
And uh so it totally undersold Patrick.
But then he's like,
yeah,
go to his website and I looked at stuff I was like,
wow,
this is really,
really good.
And then Patrick and I,
we got on the phone and that was,
I believe Patrick,
that was the,
the rouge,
the graphic novel project that we started with.
So that was the whole the Red Dwarf project.
And so I said,
well,
the way I work is you need to read my work first and come back and kind of summarize retell me the story because I caught listening for the echo.
I'll know if he gets like the,
the heart of what I'm getting at in,
in the story that I'm telling.
So he read it,
he came back,
he got it and uh you know,
did a couple comps and it was just incredible and we've been working,
I mean,
it's,
it's pushing 10 years now that we've been working together.
Um And so,
and,
you know,
it was Patrick's artwork that Steve saw in the investor in the investor meeting.
That was like,
yeah,
you got something.
He hadn't even read the stories.
It was the artwork that sold it.
Don't you think Steve or a big part of it?
That was a part of it?
Yeah.
But I mean,
you obviously have to be able to stitch together all of the artwork together to be able to tell the story.
It wasn't just one image,
but I'll let uh Patrick tell that.
Yeah.
So Patrick,
so go ahead,
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna,
you up now.
So as the visual storyteller,
you know,
you came into our world,
what is your take on uh telling stories through uh through uh images?
Well,
it's uh well,
first of all,
it's great to be a part of the group.
I love,
uh I love being uh on,
on this team because uh I think everybody's really motivated to uh to tell good stories and to create a positive entertainment,
you know,
things that are uh gonna make a difference.
So,
you know,
just to start off,
I love,
love being a part of all that.
Um We,
yeah,
we do.
Uh Thanks uh as for myself,
you know,
my earliest professional artistic work was in uh what they used to call edutainment.
So I've always been,
uh,
a big,
uh,
proponent of,
uh,
you know,
stuff that,
uh,
educates entertains.
Uh,
it puts good stuff out into the world and,
and it's,
and it's not just decoration,
it's not just entertainment but it's something that,
that's positive on several levels.
And I think that's probably something that I really,
uh,
attached on to quickly,
you know,
working with JB and reading that first,
uh,
Rouge book that I did was Patrick a lot,
a lot of history and a lot of uh uh uh a lot of how people interact with their history and how that all works together.
Absolutely.
Your background is fascinating to me.
So,
I don't know.
A lot of people don't know this but you have a background in music and you did a lot with uh computers and computer program,
didn't you?
I have a very circuitous route that got me to worry.
Yeah.
What is,
so,
what's that journey?
Well,
how did you get to the point where now you're artist extraordinaire?
Uh uh Well,
thanks.
Well,
let I,
I started uh when I was,
uh you know,
a kid,
uh I had lots of different interests.
Uh Basically everything except mathematics.
That was my one,
but I'm still not very good at.
So don't ask me to work out the tip.
Um But uh when I got to college,
you know,
I was still doing music.
I was in,
you know,
bands and I did a lot of,
uh you know,
at that age,
I was uh being hired by uh recording studios just as a pickup artist,
you know,
to do commercials and things like that.
So I was keeping my hand in music,
but I was an art major and uh I didn't really understand at that point,
the difference between the fine arts and illustration and what I didn't really know was I was far more cut out to do illustration than,
than why is that?
Well,
it's a whole different world in,
in illustration,
you're telling a story,
which as it turned out is,
is really something very important to me and the fine arts especially then I think it may have changed.
Now,
the fine arts was really only uh geared towards explaining your concept.
You know,
you,
you do something meaningless,
you know,
decorating a canvas and your job as the artist was to sort of justify what you'd done and sell it to a gallery based on that.
Uh And I,
I quickly became really disenchanted with that entire world and,
you know,
that I took some good classes,
a lot of life drawing and,
and things like that.
But I,
I kind of learned it wasn't what you were drawing,
it was why you were drawing it.
And that didn't,
didn't sit well with me.
I just,
I wanted to do pictures that,
that told a story.
And so I dropped out of that program and became a music major for my next couple of years and,
you know,
learned a lot of uh uh uh learned,
I learned a lot about different uh musical techniques.
A lot about uh writing music that I hadn't known.
So it was nice to get in,
you know,
get,
get an advanced education in that.
But as it turned out,
as soon as I left college,
uh I took a job where they were putting a computer system in,
this was back in the eighties,
the early days of computing.
And,
uh,
I kind of my way into the computer department and just taught myself how to program.
And next thing I knew I had a 10 year career as a computer programmer.
I ended up working for a British telecom and,
uh,
Chevron,
actually,
my last big job was,
uh,
Chevron when they were doing their Y2K conversion.
Uh,
so,
uh,
that was the early,
early,
uh,
mid nineties,
two K.
Yeah,
the world was gonna shut down,
wasn't it?
Well,
it was,
except the companies all knew that it was going to happen.
So everybody,
like shoring was pouring huge money into reprogramming their systems.
And,
uh,
you know,
it was a case of,
uh,
the news media kind of latched on to the early,
oh,
my God,
something horrible could happen.
And the companies were way ahead of them.
Yeah,
we got this cover.
So Y2K rolled around and the companies all said,
yeah,
you see we did it.
So you,
so from there,
you continued to progress into you clearly,
you,
you moved into the visual arts and like what you talked about illustration because you were driven by storytelling.
Absolutely.
And,
and by then,
uh we're,
we're talking about the late nineties or so,
I,
uh I said,
well,
I really want to get into uh art.
I,
I'm,
you know,
I've done everything I can with programming,
kind of tired of it.
And I realized that the best way to leverage that because I'd been uh sort of teaching myself lots of uh different art techniques on my own.
And then,
uh when uh computer art started becoming a big thing,
you know,
I got myself a Mac and I learned how to do that.
And I realized,
well,
I kind of knew all my contemporaries just getting into uh art,
you know,
out of college are all 10 years younger than me.
And so I need something to uh give me a leg up.
And I realized,
well,
it's the fact that I know how to talk to programmers and I know how to be a liaison.
And pretty quickly I jumped into uh computer art.
But uh within a year I was doing art directing because that was my,
you know,
value that I had II,
I could do art and I could do programming and so I could be a liaison between those things.
So art directing in the multimedia field was really,
uh,
cut out for me.
So we did,
uh,
you know,
lots of those,
uh,
educational games that were big back then,
um,
on CD ROM.
And,
uh,
yeah,
those were the days.
Have,
have you always been able to draw though?
Like,
I mean,
you,
you draw so,
so easily,
I mean,
uh,
the,
the detail,
I mean,
have you always had that natural ability to be able to draw?
I,
I'd say I've,
uh,
I've always had the natural,
um,
willingness to draw because I,
I'm sort of of the opinion that there's like two levels of talent.
There's the one level of talent,
which is what I have,
which is just the willingness to try and do it over and over to practice and practice and enjoy the process.
Because if you don't enjoy that process,
you'll never have the quote talent.
You know,
you'll draw a couple of things and say that's ok and,
you know,
you'll go on to something else,
but if you really like it,
you'll really work hard at it and then you'll have that level of talent.
Now,
the other level is genius,
which I don't have and very few people have,
I don't know about that.
There are people who,
you know,
they can think in ways that the rest of us can't.
And that's what I'd qualify as genius.
It's a good,
that's a good point because the way that I see that you do things I think that you are a genius by the way.
Um And the reason being is because uh from a spatial relations perspective,
you have that down.
I mean,
when you draw something,
it is perspective,
I mean,
everything comes to focal point and everything logically makes sense.
And me with my engineering,
left-handed engineering brain on when I see what you do like,
you know,
just like when we did,
you know flex man,
um it all made sense to me like,
and there's a very few artists and people that I worked through,
worked with uh throughout the years that that do what you do.
So Patrick,
this is Curt.
It's an interesting journey you've had that you started off as an art major jump tracks over to music,
got into technology and then you got back into what your heart made,
what made your heart sing,
right?
They're drawing the art and what you applied technology to you,
everything along your journey and watching it,
you know,
you hear this,
I'm sure you're very familiar with it.
The starving artist,
you know,
comment at what point did you realize you could start making a living by doing this?
Well,
I,
I,
I've always um been the sort of person who and,
and for good or bad.
I,
I would say there's a lot of people who would,
who would look at this as a bad thing.
I always have thought of uh making a living at something as being sort of the,
the ultimate uh uh proof that you're doing well.
And maybe that's another reason I wasn't cut out for the fine arts community.
Um So when I decided to jump from doing programming to doing art,
you know,
I put together a plan,
I said,
you know,
I,
I went to artists that I knew who were making a living at it.
Uh 11 wonderful woman in particular who was at uh uh bun doing a lot of their stuff like uh thief.
Uh What is that?
Uh,
the uh,
oh the,
the thief that jumps around,
bro.
I'm not familiar with,
bro.
Oh,
got it.
Ok.
Anyway,
and she did,
she did Carmen San Diego.
She did a lot of things like that and she was working on computer art and so I,
I kind of went to her as a,
as a,
uh you know,
mentor and got a lot of ideas about how the industry worked and,
uh,
you know,
started dipping my toe in and there was actually about six months where I was working my computer job all day and then,
uh doing art all night uh on paid jobs.
Uh because,
uh I believe that when you uh get a job with a real deadline and uh you know,
payment and people need you to do it,
it's going to focus your attention a lot more.
And so as far as being a,
being a starving artist,
I say,
well,
if you're a starving artist,
you're probably just kind of wandering around doing whatever you feel like.
And you're not gonna get a lot better quickly.
But if you get a job with a deadline,
you're going to have to do it or starve and it really focuses your attention when you know,
your,
your rent money is coming from it.
And so,
uh I had that plan and,
you know,
within,
within a year,
I was doing art uh full time and haven't looked back since what,
what got you into comics and comic books.
Well,
that,
that is probably my,
the money as a,
as a kid.
I just loved comics.
Uh And my earliest art,
you know,
gods were all in the comics field,
artists doing comics.
And uh no,
that's always been a uh you know,
a boil on my neck ready to pop.
Oh Thanks for that visual visual storytelling.
Hold on a second.
Yeah.
There you go.
We just got,
what's your favorite comic?
What was the one that really took you over the edge early on?
You said you've always been a fan?
Gosh,
uh uh I was uh reading comics uh and collecting them and I ran across this artist from the sixties uh Jim Strano.
And uh he was just a really uh experimental artist who brought a lot of the uh the pop art and art movements into his uh comics art and his storytelling was dynamic.
And uh I just started,
you know,
going back and collecting all of his books and then seeing what he was doing uh in the seventies and eighties,
which was uh he had moved more into uh illustration,
book cover illustration.
He had a,
a magazine called Media Scene and I just got into everything he did.
So I'd have to say he was probably my,
my main biggest inspiration.
So anyone who's interested should look up Jim Strano quite a style.
So Patrick,
which,
which comics did he draw for.
He uh had a kind of a mercurial career.
He bounced around over the course of uh like five or six years at Marvel uh doing whatever he felt like.
And he really only did about 30 less than 40 actual individual issues of things.
But what he started out uh doing was uh he uh took over very early on the Nick Fury Agent of Shield strip.
Uh He did that book for uh just a maybe a couple of years.
That was his earliest thing and he really set the style for all of Marvel's uh you know,
uh super spy stuff.
And then he,
and then he jumped to uh Captain America.
He did only three issues of Captain America,
but he basically redefined the character at that point.
And then he started doing just a little of this and a little of that.
Marvel had a horror magazine.
He did one short story and that,
that is still thought of as,
as like a,
a benchmark in,
in horror comics uh design.
And he did a love story comic where he did it all with this pop art style that no one had ever thought to use in comics.
And he would just bounce around and uh it was a short but amazing career in comics.
So,
so Patrick,
so this is,
this is a good segue because one of the things that we've talked about in bits and pieces and,
and you've talked about is,
is sort of that balance between following your,
your creativity and your passion and then the process and,
and the business of it all.
And uh you had,
you know,
you had said this,
um you know,
you were passionate about comics and,
and so you,
and you wanted to be telling stories and that's what kind of like moved your art,
what I've always been interested in your ability to take,
to channel that creativity into uh a process where you can,
you can create uh standard outputs uh in a timeline,
you know,
on a,
on a deadline,
on a budget.
Uh Can you talk a little bit about your process?
Because I've always been fascinated with how you,
you know,
how you end up working with us with what we give you.
Well,
the uh well,
the other side of,
of uh what I've uh been doing is we've talked about the multimedia and the comics.
I've also always just uh been fascinated with illustrations,
you know,
the standalone illustrations that tell a story with one picture and,
and that's,
that's most of what I've really been doing other than our first uh big graphic novel,
I've been doing a lot of uh illustrations for folk tellers,
uh you know,
the covers uh and the interior illustrations.
And as far as the process for that goes,
it's,
um in,
in some ways it has to do with being a reader my whole life,
you know,
sort of a voracious reader.
And I've always uh loved the storytelling uh world and when it comes to drawing,
uh as I've said,
my,
my passion is,
is telling that story.
So the very first thing I always do is I'll try to zero in on part of the story that is,
that is visual and,
and doesn't just give an illustration like a character standing there and looking cool or an interesting,
you know,
creature or background or something.
I always try to give the picture a feeling that there was story before it and there's going to be story after it and my action is leading from what happened before to what's going to happen next.
Well,
that's how do you do that?
I mean,
that's,
that's amazing thought.
But how do you do that visually?
What do you,
I,
I can say just by,
you know,
looking at all that,
the artwork that he's made for us over the years,
all of his artwork is dynamic,
isn't it?
But how do you,
how do you get that feeling?
Like you just described Patrick where there's a story before and there's a story after from what you see.
Well,
as Steve mentions,
the dynamics is,
is a big part of it.
If you,
if you give your picture a sense of uh motion and even though it's standing still,
you can give it a sense of kinetics by how you keep the,
the lines and,
and how people are balanced or unbalanced in the picture and how the composition is balanced or unbalanced.
You can have a very formalistic composition that's uh that looks like it's real stable,
so to speak.
Uh or you can have an unbalanced composition that looks like it's falling off the page and going somewhere.
And so visually,
you like to do that.
But also with,
with storytelling comes the idea that you want to put pieces of,
of the world that you're in,
of the story that you're telling,
you know,
people are interacting with each other,
they're not standing there.
They're uh they look like they could be talking to each other about something or the world that you're in.
Uh you know,
be it a,
you know,
say you're on a mountainside or you're in a swamp or you're somewhere else.
The world should look like you as the viewer could walk into it and say,
oh,
there's something around the corner there,
I wonder what it is and the characters are looking over there.
And so as the viewer,
you wanna know what are those characters looking at?
Well,
it's interesting Patrick,
because I remember as a kid growing up looking at Spiderman comics and Spiderman never looked like he was standing still,
right?
He,
he looked like he was always moving,
moving one way or another,
right?
Something was always,
always moving.
Yeah,
Marvel always had that uh what a very uh huge kinetic emotion going on.
Even if you're just standing there,
you're standing with drama.
What did you do for Marvel,
by the way,
I uh worked in their uh marketing department.
I was a freelancer and I was mainly working on the Marvel Style guide.
So it was uh sort of uh highly rendered uh individual pictures of,
of various characters,
you know,
like I did a whole bunch of thor but then I did a lot of uh you know,
various bad guys and good guys,
uh a few silver surfer,
you know,
things like that.
And that was used in the Marvel Style guide,
which was what they would give to people who were uh uh licensing the Marvel characters.
And so those books they got say you have to go by this official version of the character.
Uh Then I also did some other point of sale marketing things.
I i it's been many years,
there was a time where,
where this was like a cultural thing I could mention and,
and everybody of a certain age would go.
Oh,
I remember that was,
uh,
in Target.
They had,
uh,
when the Hulk movie,
the second Hulk movie came out where that was 2008 or nine.
they had these,
uh,
footprints on the floor.
They were like big stickers that,
that Target would put on the floor,
that sort of lead to the toy section and they were the Hulks feet.
Uh That's cool,
tearing up the floor.
I did those as a lot of people of a certain age,
I can say that they go,
I remember that I was just gonna say about my size.
Yeah.
So yeah,
a lot of uh point of sale things.
Uh Special,
special projects.
Yeah,
that kind of thing.
So I was on contract with them for quite a while.
Awesome.
Very cool.
Well,
Patrick,
we appreciate your time today.
Um Just before we,
before we let you go.
Um I mean,
and by the way,
what you said in this uh in this chat was it's gold.
I mean,
for,
for visual story,
we really sell,
just leave like leave the listeners with uh it's a different point of view.
I mean,
what you what you shared,
it's a different point of view to look at the world through a visual storytelling lens.
So for the people that are listening,
like,
what are some best practices?
Whether you're a whether you're an artist or not.
Um What's some ways that,
uh you know,
you could,
you could adjust your lens to look at uh stories in a more visual way.
Hm.
How about that?
How about that?
Yeah.
Don't,
don't try to stump the guest again.
No.
See Kurt would give him a lay up.
You know,
that's the team.
I have a,
I know he can answer it.
Go ahead.
Uh I,
I think uh I think a big part of it if people want to um do visuals to go along with stories the way I do.
Um It,
it,
it doesn't exactly answer your question,
but I think it's very important as a,
as an aspect of that uh is to read,
read the story,
imagine what's happening and then allow yourself to do things that you wouldn't normally think of,
allow yourself to be creative and allow yourself to think of stupid things,
allow yourself to do things that you wouldn't normally think of.
Uh sketch a lot,
do a lot of little tiny drawings,
never spend too long on any one thing and come up with lots of different ideas and allow yourself to fail along the way uh and keep,
uh you know,
keep an open mind that don't ever stop yourself before.
You've tried it.
How about that?
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's sage advice.
So where can people see your work?
Of course,
they can go to uh folk Tillers Studios dot com or folk tillers dot com and see Patrick's work.
But where can they see like the,
the full depth and breadth of,
of your art?
I've,
I've got a,
uh,
a website that has a number of pieces on it and I probably ought to update it more often says everybody with a website.
Uh it's uh uh mega flow graphics dot com,
megaflow graphics dot com.
And it's got a lot of my work there.
It's got uh comics work,
uh book illustration work uh covers and it's even got a little section with some of my multimedia.
Excellent.
Well,
again,
Patrick,
thanks for being on and uh we appreciate everything that you do and uh we're so happy that you're part of the folk teller family.
Well,
thanks guys.
And uh this was great to be a part of,
I've been listening to your podcast since it started and it's been a lot of great entertainment.
So you guys are or something.
All right,
we'll talk to you soon.
All right,
thanks Patrick.
Nice to meet you.
Take care,
take care,
Patrick.
OK,
bye bye.
Cheers.
All right.
So,
uh again,
you know,
Patrick,
he said he wasn't,
uh I guess any genius never calls himself a genius.
It has to be put upon him.
Yeah,
talented,
very talented.
So if you get a chance,
check out his work,
I mean,
if you look at our stuff,
you'll see it.
But uh mega flow graphics dot com but anyway,
so this got me thinking there's a term called visual literacy.
There's a really cool video out there.
Uh Martin Scorsese did about uh the necessity for visual literacy and he gives a really good description of it.
You can,
if you Google Martin Scorsese visual literacy,
you'll find it.
It's I think it's like a seven or eight minute video,
but he talks about um it's important to understand uh the visual medium.
And I really think in modern storytelling,
you absolutely have to.
Uh because people are reading,
I think people are not reading less,
but they're reading differently,
they're reading in smaller chunks and what you're seeing like,
like,
well,
look at a magazine,
it's more pictures and text now,
uh websites,
more pictures than text.
It's like minimize the text,
maximize the visual and the imagery.
And that's kind of like,
you know,
modern,
you know,
modern storytelling is that it is that the problem the problem with that is,
is uh images don't index text into search engines.
So you can't find anything if your whole entire website is just based on images.
So from a digital perspective,
that's not a good action plan.
You have to,
you really have to have a blend between the text and the story for you to be able to do well on the web and be successful.
That's great insight from the tech guy.
It really is.
So from the OK.
And that is,
but from the storytelling side.
What's the right balance?
Yeah.
For me,
it's,
it's like,
I think we,
our brains are being constantly rewired,
right?
If you look at over the decades,
over the centuries,
how visual has become even more important in the last 2030 years,
we're,
I mean,
we're getting rewired.
My,
our,
I,
I truly believe our brains are being rewired by the use of technology and things that we're doing now that we're becoming more visually uh a astute that,
that visual is our.
Before in education,
there used to be different types of learning,
right?
You're an auditory learner,
you had a visual learner,
you had somebody who was kinesthetic,
right?
They have to,
I I,
in my opinion,
I see a shift more and more to visual that people are visual that they've learned through visual.
And so that's an important part of the storytelling because without that,
um you know,
like you said,
people are reading differently now.
And I think in,
in my opinion,
they're reading more visually as a result.
Look at Power Point for an example,
like when they invented powerpoint,
it was supposed to be very visual and there's only supposed to be a small amount of text,
but like one point that Power point,
not power points.
And so what ended up happening is,
you know,
a lot of industry,
they,
you know,
they,
they started to,
to use it like it was a book and I've said to those death by powerpoint presentations.
But that's a prime example of,
of,
you know,
visual literacy.
That's,
that's a really good example.
In fact,
I've told clients,
uh powerpoint is not a prompter,
right?
That's a good way to put it.
I mean,
like,
put it all in perspective and there's like uh that 10,
2030 rule for Power Point,
it's supposed to be,
I'm gonna probably get this wrong,
but it's supposed to be no more than 10 slidess,
no more than uh 20 point font.
And the 30 is uh like no more than 30 years old,
30 years old.
But that it's basically keep it short,
keep it short and sweet and highly visual.
And Steve this got me thinking about when we do Hollywood pitch decks because this is to me visual storytelling and what it means in the modern world is the visuals are the gateway to a deeper experience and I'll explain that.
So a good example is these pitch decks we have to put together the initial pitch check.
I mean,
we're like,
you're consolidating,
it's very few words,
but it's highly visual and it's dynamic visuals because you're trying to get people that don't know.
Yeah,
I mean,
they have the attention span of a nat.
So it's like,
OK,
this is bright and pretty and there's movement and,
and there's uh there's a little blurb.
So I know what's going on and the whole idea of the pitch deck is all right to get them to say,
yeah,
let me see more.
Let me see the script or let me see the books and then they'll go into the text.
They wanna go deeper,
but it has to tell the story.
It does.
That's the challenge.
It's like I,
I just read um it was the description of what they said.
Uh The guy was saying uh he was a famous poet and I can't think of it.
It was like uh a great poem is maximum impact in minimum space.
And I think that's what visuals do for you.
Well,
as an example,
when I do keynote presentations,
I,
I use powerpoint or different formats,
but a lot of visuals,
I I'd say literally 85 to 90% of my presentation from the Power Point side is visual rules every once in a while,
a few words,
some statistics,
uh some video as well.
But for that reason,
right,
people are looking to consume in different ways as a result and,
and you know,
the storytelling can come verbally in my case.
And I,
but,
but like to your point,
Joseph,
that,
that people are reading differently,
I guess in your opinion,
what are the different ways that people are reading this as far as that literacy,
that storytelling,
visual literacy?
What is it?
Well,
I think like,
OK,
so I go back to,
you know,
magazines and periodicals.
Um the articles are shorter there,
there's more,
there's more pictures.
In fact,
when you hear people talk about actually reading a novel or reading a book or reading for pleasure.
It's like,
uh,
they have to set the time aside and it's like,
uh,
you know,
I want my,
my coffee and my blanket and it's,
it's like a comfort thing and it's like something like that.
They have to set aside where before you had to,
you were reading a lot just to get through your day,
whether it was your business or whatever.
Um So,
you know,
I think that's the technology definitely like the reading on the screen and that's changed everything.
So now you've really got to consolidate,
like Steve said,
you still have to tell the story.
Um But now you have to,
it has to be more highly visual and less and less text.
Um And there's more graphic novels now too,
right?
Yeah,
that's another thing.
Yeah.
So wrapping all this up,
I mean,
we again,
we could,
we could just go on forever,
but a visual storytelling.
What are,
what are we walking away with?
I mean,
what,
what do people need to be sensitive or looking out for?
Yeah,
right off the bat.
I know first and foremost is that there has to,
it's best to have a visual attached to the narrative.
In other words,
if I have a narrative,
it's best to attach some type of visual to that.
Uh you know,
Patrick talked about his gift of,
of drawing and what he does with graphics,
whether it be from the computer or with his hand.
Um That,
that's an important part of that story is seeing that visual,
like you said,
um the,
it's amazing that he talks about the story that comes before that visual and afterwards,
by looking at that visual,
that's great,
Steve.
What about you?
I think the future is gonna be very interesting in visual storytelling because we,
we did a podcast on A I and A I is gonna have a huge impact on,
on what happens in the future,
you know,
like um applications like mid journey and um you know,
and uh GP T four,
you know,
and the,
and the combination of those,
those technologies together,
I mean,
things are gonna change guys.
Yeah,
quickly.
For,
for me it's the balance between the visual and the text of the narrative,
the narrative.
So um and,
and how you got to look at it every iteration because it,
whoever your audience is and whatever you're trying to do,
you're gonna have to strike that balance.
So,
um all right guys.
Another good one.
Thanks for Patrick.
Oh Yeah,
cool.
Yeah.
Um So everyone check out mega flow graphics dot com if you want to see Patrick stuff.
And uh thanks for letting us be in your ears.

Arts

Performing Arts

English

United States

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IN THIS EPISODE

carmen san diego

patrick mcilroy

harry potter

anthony demelo

# stan lee

# jack kirby

# steve sadler

# patrick mcevoy

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TRANSCRIPT 🔗

1
00:00:08,510 --> 00:00:09,000
Well,
2
00:00:09,010 --> 00:00:14,380
welcome everyone to the folk tellers stories to be shared podcast.
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It's week 11 and we're talking about 1000 words,
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the power of pictures,
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paint and visual storytelling.
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And I wanted to,
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uh,
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before I warm everyone up with our little thoughts for the day,
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let's introduce my compatriots.
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We have the stunning Steve Sadler.
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Oh,
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I like that word.
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Do you know why?
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Because I understand that word and the uh incomparable,
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that's good.
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There's two words we can understand and you can feel good about yourself.
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So I appreciate it.
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I just can't believe this has been a week 11 now.
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I mean,
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that's unbelievable,
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but it's a good thing.
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They say time flies and having fun,
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but it's still fun.
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We're still having fun.
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That's what I'm saying.
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This is work and this is,
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this is a conundrum.
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This is a OK.
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All right.
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So here we are week 11,
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we're talking about visual storytelling power of pictures.
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Um We're gonna have uh Patrick mcavoy on a little bit in a little bit.
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Um Patrick's a uh incredible artist.
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He does a lot of work for folk tellers and he's a big fan of Jack Kirby and people don't know who Jack Kirby is.
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Jack Kirby was um the Marvel artist who came up with all the biggies.
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He came up with the Hulk and Spiderman.
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And you know,
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it's funny,
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people always think Stan Lee.
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Stan Lee wasn't an artist.
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He was a writer.
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Uh Jack Kirby was the one who came up with,
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with the,
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the look,
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the,
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that the Marvel look.
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So one of the things Jack Kirby said was says,
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I achieve perfection.
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My type of perfection through visual storytelling,
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storytelling was my style.
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And then I've got another quote here.
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It says um this is Anthony Demelo.
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Um He's a uh he,
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I think he's actually a priest and uh uh he's a famous storyteller speaker.
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Um You have to understand that the shortest distance between a human being and the truth is a story.
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So those are our two icebreakers,
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gentlemen.
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Like,
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so one of the first big questions is we're gonna get into visual storytelling.
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So to you,
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what,
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what do you think visual storytelling is?
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I leave the floor open.
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Well,
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uh an image is 1000 words,
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right?
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Yeah.
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Pick a picture or a picture is 1000 words.
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I don't know what,
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what is the the exact phrase we're supposed to be a picture is worth 1000 words or an image,
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right?
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Or an image,
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right?
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Well,
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we,
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we're in digital today.
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What does that mean?
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We'll,
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we'll use image because what,
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what what does that really mean?
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Is that true or is that just a absolutely sure it is.
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I could look at an image and,
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and pull a lot of context out of that image just by looking at it just like I can if I'm driving my car down the road,
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I mean,
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that's an image that or,
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you know,
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or a picture that I'm looking at,
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right as I'm driving and uh and I'm pulling that story out of it.
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So,
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yeah,
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definitely without,
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without words.
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So from an audience perspective,
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and this is what,
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what,
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what I found as,
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as a writer,
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um as a writer,
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what I've chosen or what's been put upon me is the uh the craft that takes the longest to engage with uh where visual media,
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it's instantaneous,
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like music like you hear,
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you hear a couple notes or you see something visually.
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Um There's an immediate response reaction and either rejection or engagement where in writing it's like you have to read it,
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you have to process it and then you have to reflect on it before you're really engaging with it.
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So it's a,
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it's a much longer process.
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So,
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Kurt,
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what's your take?
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Yeah,
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for me,
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you've brought up music it because we did a couple of episodes uh or a couple of episodes ago,
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we talked about music.
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To me,
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it's the lyrics and,
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and the melody coming together.
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That's where the story with the visuals come together,
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right?
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It's like the music has the melody line,
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but then you have the lyrics that match it with,
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with the vision part of it.
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To me it's a,
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it's a,
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I have to see the vision match the narrative.
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In other words,
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I could have this story.
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But when I see an image that attaches to it,
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oh my God,
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you,
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you know,
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you brought up about Marvel,
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I mean,
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think about the imagery of those characters that are part of the story,
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part of the narrative.
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That's the powerful part of it.
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I mean,
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I can look at an image from Marvel and say,
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oh yeah,
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I know exactly who that is without knowing a story without seeing the story.
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Then why do people say I saw the movie and the book was better?
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Why do you think that's such a common statement?
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My daughter is a big reader.
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I mean,
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she's the kind of person that could actually pick up like a Harry novel,
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Harry Potter.
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Harry novel.
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It was a slip there,
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a Harry Potter novel and she can literally read that book in a day.
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I could,
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I could never do that.
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It would take me a month to read every time that she sees the movie.
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She goes,
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well,
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that's not as good as the book.
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And I'm like,
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well,
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why isn't it?
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She goes because in her mind,
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you're,
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you're,
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you create a mental picture while you're reading and many times it's better than what they can ever come up with in Hollywood.
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Well,
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I think part of it too is just simple length.
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Right.
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You have a 500 page novel like that.
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Right.
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There,
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much more detail can be gotten into and as opposed to a 60 90 you know,
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even a three hour movie.
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Right.
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There's only so much time you have for that.
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Yeah.
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There,
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there's greater constraints from a production standpoint,
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I think on,
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on doing a feature film,
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you know,
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you've got,
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yeah,
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you've got 90 minutes or,
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or whatever,
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whatever the standard is.
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So if they're adapting from a book,
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you know,
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a book,
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you just can keep writing more pages,
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you know,
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more series.
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Yeah.
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So,
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yeah,
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I think,
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I think that's one of the challenges uh in that there's,
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there's more constraints so the book can have more,
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usually has more detail to it,
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especially JK Rawlings.
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I mean,
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she is very detailed in her stories.
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Yes.
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Right to the,
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you know,
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the color of the wood and the texture of the door handles and stuff like that.
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So that's a good point,
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Stephen,
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because the visual doesn't necessarily have to be an actual visual.
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It could be something created in our mind from reading that it's a,
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it's a mental picture that,
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that you're making.
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But when we talk to Patrick,
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you're,
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you're gonna understand how his mind works because that's literally what Joseph and I do for him.
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We give him that mental picture and he converts it into the beautiful art that he's been doing for many,
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many years.
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He's just absolutely incredible.
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So you guys,
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we have our friend and another compatriot,
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our art director extraordinaire,
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uh Patrick mcilroy.
219
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So a little background on Patrick,
220
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uh he will not tell you this himself,
221
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but he's done a ton of work for Marvel and Disney and Sony.
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And he,
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I mean,
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he really is a,
225
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a incredibly,
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not only a talented artist but a visual designer and a visual storyteller himself.
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So,
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uh Patrick,
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great to have you on.
230
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Well,
231
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great to be here.
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Thanks.
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Uh Yeah,
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if you uh ever want me to blow my own horn,
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I,
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I am happy to,
237
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oh,
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well,
239
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by the time we're done,
240
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it's better when someone else gets the ball rolling for me.
241
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Now,
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you've just created a visual story for all of us of you blowing your own horn.
243
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Um But we won't go down that rabbit hole.
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So Patrick,
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we're talking about,
246
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we're talking about visual storytelling.
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So I wanna,
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I wanna tee this up with you because you are uh now the resident of visual storytelling expert and Patrick,
249
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what we were talking about was um how uh visual storytelling,
250
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visuals and,
251
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and art and all that stuff gives you like music.
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When you see it,
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it's an immediate engagement or rejection.
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Uh But uh you have an immediate uh you know,
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visceral reaction,
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whether it's looking at a piece of art,
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whether it's going to film,
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uh watching a film or uh versus,
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you know,
260
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versus writing.
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And so the way Patrick and I met was,
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I was looking for uh folk tellers for the visual,
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what,
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what this universe would look like.
265
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And I had kind of an idea in my head,
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but I ended up,
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I interviewed 100 and 50 different artists and then um someone who I worked with on the,
268
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on in my professional work,
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uh a colleague said,
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hey,
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I got a friend I grew up with uh who does,
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you know,
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he does drawing.
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And I was like,
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oh OK.
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And uh so it totally undersold Patrick.
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But then he's like,
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yeah,
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go to his website and I looked at stuff I was like,
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wow,
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this is really,
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really good.
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And then Patrick and I,
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we got on the phone and that was,
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I believe Patrick,
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that was the,
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the rouge,
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the graphic novel project that we started with.
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So that was the whole the Red Dwarf project.
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And so I said,
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well,
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the way I work is you need to read my work first and come back and kind of summarize retell me the story because I caught listening for the echo.
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I'll know if he gets like the,
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00:08:58,909 --> 00:09:01,429
the heart of what I'm getting at in,
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in the story that I'm telling.
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So he read it,
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he came back,
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00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:06,539
he got it and uh you know,
299
00:09:06,549 --> 00:09:10,380
did a couple comps and it was just incredible and we've been working,
300
00:09:10,390 --> 00:09:10,799
I mean,
301
00:09:10,809 --> 00:09:11,179
it's,
302
00:09:11,190 --> 00:09:13,799
it's pushing 10 years now that we've been working together.
303
00:09:14,039 --> 00:09:15,190
Um And so,
304
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:15,349
and,
305
00:09:15,359 --> 00:09:15,729
you know,
306
00:09:16,049 --> 00:09:20,780
it was Patrick's artwork that Steve saw in the investor in the investor meeting.
307
00:09:20,789 --> 00:09:21,530
That was like,
308
00:09:21,539 --> 00:09:21,679
yeah,
309
00:09:21,690 --> 00:09:22,729
you got something.
310
00:09:22,739 --> 00:09:24,380
He hadn't even read the stories.
311
00:09:24,390 --> 00:09:25,849
It was the artwork that sold it.
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00:09:25,859 --> 00:09:28,239
Don't you think Steve or a big part of it?
313
00:09:28,250 --> 00:09:29,260
That was a part of it?
314
00:09:29,270 --> 00:09:29,390
Yeah.
315
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:30,039
But I mean,
316
00:09:30,049 --> 00:09:35,799
you obviously have to be able to stitch together all of the artwork together to be able to tell the story.
317
00:09:35,809 --> 00:09:37,039
It wasn't just one image,
318
00:09:37,049 --> 00:09:39,080
but I'll let uh Patrick tell that.
319
00:09:39,229 --> 00:09:39,510
Yeah.
320
00:09:39,570 --> 00:09:40,320
So Patrick,
321
00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:41,359
so go ahead,
322
00:09:41,369 --> 00:09:41,690
I'm gonna,
323
00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:42,059
I'm gonna,
324
00:09:42,109 --> 00:09:42,919
you up now.
325
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,000
So as the visual storyteller,
326
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:45,890
you know,
327
00:09:46,020 --> 00:09:47,640
you came into our world,
328
00:09:47,650 --> 00:09:54,299
what is your take on uh telling stories through uh through uh images?
329
00:09:55,650 --> 00:09:56,020
Well,
330
00:09:56,030 --> 00:09:57,450
it's uh well,
331
00:09:57,460 --> 00:09:58,000
first of all,
332
00:09:58,010 --> 00:09:59,750
it's great to be a part of the group.
333
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:00,869
I love,
334
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,640
uh I love being uh on,
335
00:10:02,650 --> 00:10:12,640
on this team because uh I think everybody's really motivated to uh to tell good stories and to create a positive entertainment,
336
00:10:12,979 --> 00:10:13,340
you know,
337
00:10:13,349 --> 00:10:15,830
things that are uh gonna make a difference.
338
00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:16,200
So,
339
00:10:16,210 --> 00:10:16,419
you know,
340
00:10:16,429 --> 00:10:17,400
just to start off,
341
00:10:17,409 --> 00:10:17,820
I love,
342
00:10:17,830 --> 00:10:19,280
love being a part of all that.
343
00:10:19,940 --> 00:10:20,969
Um We,
344
00:10:21,739 --> 00:10:21,859
yeah,
345
00:10:21,869 --> 00:10:22,330
we do.
346
00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:25,469
Uh Thanks uh as for myself,
347
00:10:25,479 --> 00:10:25,599
you know,
348
00:10:25,609 --> 00:10:32,950
my earliest professional artistic work was in uh what they used to call edutainment.
349
00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,489
So I've always been,
350
00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:35,510
uh,
351
00:10:35,530 --> 00:10:36,469
a big,
352
00:10:36,479 --> 00:10:36,489
uh,
353
00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:38,330
proponent of,
354
00:10:38,669 --> 00:10:39,429
uh,
355
00:10:39,549 --> 00:10:39,989
you know,
356
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,349
stuff that,
357
00:10:41,359 --> 00:10:41,369
uh,
358
00:10:41,710 --> 00:10:44,239
educates entertains.
359
00:10:44,250 --> 00:10:44,659
Uh,
360
00:10:44,669 --> 00:10:47,719
it puts good stuff out into the world and,
361
00:10:47,729 --> 00:10:48,320
and it's,
362
00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:50,380
and it's not just decoration,
363
00:10:50,390 --> 00:10:52,700
it's not just entertainment but it's something that,
364
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:55,140
that's positive on several levels.
365
00:10:55,359 --> 00:10:58,380
And I think that's probably something that I really,
366
00:10:58,390 --> 00:10:58,400
uh,
367
00:10:58,409 --> 00:11:00,210
attached on to quickly,
368
00:11:00,219 --> 00:11:00,429
you know,
369
00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,760
working with JB and reading that first,
370
00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:03,159
uh,
371
00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:07,309
Rouge book that I did was Patrick a lot,
372
00:11:07,330 --> 00:11:15,650
a lot of history and a lot of uh uh uh a lot of how people interact with their history and how that all works together.
373
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:16,809
Absolutely.
374
00:11:16,820 --> 00:11:18,890
Your background is fascinating to me.
375
00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:19,049
So,
376
00:11:19,059 --> 00:11:19,590
I don't know.
377
00:11:19,599 --> 00:11:27,340
A lot of people don't know this but you have a background in music and you did a lot with uh computers and computer program,
378
00:11:27,349 --> 00:11:27,869
didn't you?
379
00:11:29,150 --> 00:11:33,960
I have a very circuitous route that got me to worry.
380
00:11:33,969 --> 00:11:34,140
Yeah.
381
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:34,679
What is,
382
00:11:34,690 --> 00:11:34,750
so,
383
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:35,900
what's that journey?
384
00:11:35,909 --> 00:11:36,010
Well,
385
00:11:36,020 --> 00:11:39,979
how did you get to the point where now you're artist extraordinaire?
386
00:11:39,989 --> 00:11:41,429
Uh uh Well,
387
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:42,179
thanks.
388
00:11:42,190 --> 00:11:42,460
Well,
389
00:11:42,469 --> 00:11:42,739
let I,
390
00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:45,340
I started uh when I was,
391
00:11:45,349 --> 00:11:46,039
uh you know,
392
00:11:46,049 --> 00:11:46,909
a kid,
393
00:11:46,919 --> 00:11:50,869
uh I had lots of different interests.
394
00:11:50,940 --> 00:11:54,090
Uh Basically everything except mathematics.
395
00:11:54,099 --> 00:11:55,059
That was my one,
396
00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:57,309
but I'm still not very good at.
397
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,049
So don't ask me to work out the tip.
398
00:12:00,059 --> 00:12:05,419
Um But uh when I got to college,
399
00:12:05,429 --> 00:12:05,619
you know,
400
00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:07,179
I was still doing music.
401
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:07,900
I was in,
402
00:12:07,909 --> 00:12:08,130
you know,
403
00:12:08,140 --> 00:12:10,140
bands and I did a lot of,
404
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:11,010
uh you know,
405
00:12:11,020 --> 00:12:11,650
at that age,
406
00:12:11,659 --> 00:12:17,020
I was uh being hired by uh recording studios just as a pickup artist,
407
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:17,260
you know,
408
00:12:17,270 --> 00:12:19,239
to do commercials and things like that.
409
00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:20,820
So I was keeping my hand in music,
410
00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:26,719
but I was an art major and uh I didn't really understand at that point,
411
00:12:26,729 --> 00:12:34,580
the difference between the fine arts and illustration and what I didn't really know was I was far more cut out to do illustration than,
412
00:12:34,590 --> 00:12:35,820
than why is that?
413
00:12:36,590 --> 00:12:36,909
Well,
414
00:12:36,919 --> 00:12:38,469
it's a whole different world in,
415
00:12:38,479 --> 00:12:40,000
in illustration,
416
00:12:40,010 --> 00:12:41,219
you're telling a story,
417
00:12:41,229 --> 00:12:42,799
which as it turned out is,
418
00:12:42,809 --> 00:12:50,380
is really something very important to me and the fine arts especially then I think it may have changed.
419
00:12:50,390 --> 00:12:50,979
Now,
420
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:59,919
the fine arts was really only uh geared towards explaining your concept.
421
00:12:59,950 --> 00:13:00,400
You know,
422
00:13:00,409 --> 00:13:00,700
you,
423
00:13:00,710 --> 00:13:04,119
you do something meaningless,
424
00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:04,400
you know,
425
00:13:04,409 --> 00:13:14,130
decorating a canvas and your job as the artist was to sort of justify what you'd done and sell it to a gallery based on that.
426
00:13:14,549 --> 00:13:15,530
Uh And I,
427
00:13:15,539 --> 00:13:20,359
I quickly became really disenchanted with that entire world and,
428
00:13:20,369 --> 00:13:20,599
you know,
429
00:13:20,609 --> 00:13:22,080
that I took some good classes,
430
00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:23,539
a lot of life drawing and,
431
00:13:23,869 --> 00:13:25,119
and things like that.
432
00:13:25,130 --> 00:13:25,429
But I,
433
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,500
I kind of learned it wasn't what you were drawing,
434
00:13:28,510 --> 00:13:30,000
it was why you were drawing it.
435
00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:30,989
And that didn't,
436
00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:32,419
didn't sit well with me.
437
00:13:32,429 --> 00:13:32,820
I just,
438
00:13:32,830 --> 00:13:35,840
I wanted to do pictures that,
439
00:13:35,849 --> 00:13:36,979
that told a story.
440
00:13:37,109 --> 00:13:45,200
And so I dropped out of that program and became a music major for my next couple of years and,
441
00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:45,359
you know,
442
00:13:45,369 --> 00:13:49,909
learned a lot of uh uh uh learned,
443
00:13:49,919 --> 00:13:52,979
I learned a lot about different uh musical techniques.
444
00:13:52,989 --> 00:13:56,520
A lot about uh writing music that I hadn't known.
445
00:13:56,530 --> 00:13:57,619
So it was nice to get in,
446
00:13:57,630 --> 00:13:58,059
you know,
447
00:13:58,070 --> 00:13:58,320
get,
448
00:13:58,330 --> 00:14:00,320
get an advanced education in that.
449
00:14:00,489 --> 00:14:01,890
But as it turned out,
450
00:14:02,109 --> 00:14:04,940
as soon as I left college,
451
00:14:04,950 --> 00:14:09,500
uh I took a job where they were putting a computer system in,
452
00:14:09,510 --> 00:14:10,840
this was back in the eighties,
453
00:14:10,849 --> 00:14:12,280
the early days of computing.
454
00:14:12,590 --> 00:14:13,960
And,
455
00:14:13,969 --> 00:14:13,979
uh,
456
00:14:13,989 --> 00:14:20,419
I kind of my way into the computer department and just taught myself how to program.
457
00:14:20,429 --> 00:14:24,479
And next thing I knew I had a 10 year career as a computer programmer.
458
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,880
I ended up working for a British telecom and,
459
00:14:29,890 --> 00:14:29,900
uh,
460
00:14:29,909 --> 00:14:30,739
Chevron,
461
00:14:30,750 --> 00:14:31,250
actually,
462
00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:32,840
my last big job was,
463
00:14:32,849 --> 00:14:32,859
uh,
464
00:14:32,869 --> 00:14:36,539
Chevron when they were doing their Y2K conversion.
465
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:37,200
Uh,
466
00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:38,690
so,
467
00:14:38,859 --> 00:14:38,869
uh,
468
00:14:38,890 --> 00:14:40,309
that was the early,
469
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,419
early,
470
00:14:41,429 --> 00:14:41,520
uh,
471
00:14:42,099 --> 00:14:43,130
mid nineties,
472
00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:44,270
two K.
473
00:14:44,570 --> 00:14:44,710
Yeah,
474
00:14:44,719 --> 00:14:46,099
the world was gonna shut down,
475
00:14:46,109 --> 00:14:46,630
wasn't it?
476
00:14:47,239 --> 00:14:47,570
Well,
477
00:14:47,580 --> 00:14:47,909
it was,
478
00:14:47,919 --> 00:14:50,869
except the companies all knew that it was going to happen.
479
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:51,669
So everybody,
480
00:14:51,679 --> 00:14:56,270
like shoring was pouring huge money into reprogramming their systems.
481
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,200
And,
482
00:14:57,210 --> 00:14:57,219
uh,
483
00:14:57,559 --> 00:14:57,989
you know,
484
00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,309
it was a case of,
485
00:14:59,320 --> 00:14:59,330
uh,
486
00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:02,090
the news media kind of latched on to the early,
487
00:15:02,099 --> 00:15:02,109
oh,
488
00:15:02,119 --> 00:15:02,750
my God,
489
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:03,830
something horrible could happen.
490
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,190
And the companies were way ahead of them.
491
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:05,289
Yeah,
492
00:15:05,299 --> 00:15:06,280
we got this cover.
493
00:15:08,299 --> 00:15:10,830
So Y2K rolled around and the companies all said,
494
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:11,039
yeah,
495
00:15:11,049 --> 00:15:12,119
you see we did it.
496
00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:14,809
So you,
497
00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:15,789
so from there,
498
00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:19,460
you continued to progress into you clearly,
499
00:15:19,469 --> 00:15:19,710
you,
500
00:15:19,719 --> 00:15:27,070
you moved into the visual arts and like what you talked about illustration because you were driven by storytelling.
501
00:15:27,559 --> 00:15:28,570
Absolutely.
502
00:15:28,580 --> 00:15:28,789
And,
503
00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:29,770
and by then,
504
00:15:30,010 --> 00:15:30,950
uh we're,
505
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,150
we're talking about the late nineties or so,
506
00:15:33,159 --> 00:15:33,630
I,
507
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,030
uh I said,
508
00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:35,250
well,
509
00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:38,210
I really want to get into uh art.
510
00:15:38,219 --> 00:15:38,429
I,
511
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:38,760
I'm,
512
00:15:38,770 --> 00:15:39,010
you know,
513
00:15:39,020 --> 00:15:40,729
I've done everything I can with programming,
514
00:15:40,739 --> 00:15:41,770
kind of tired of it.
515
00:15:42,010 --> 00:15:52,669
And I realized that the best way to leverage that because I'd been uh sort of teaching myself lots of uh different art techniques on my own.
516
00:15:52,739 --> 00:15:53,609
And then,
517
00:15:53,780 --> 00:15:57,809
uh when uh computer art started becoming a big thing,
518
00:15:57,820 --> 00:15:57,950
you know,
519
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,989
I got myself a Mac and I learned how to do that.
520
00:16:01,270 --> 00:16:02,219
And I realized,
521
00:16:02,229 --> 00:16:02,539
well,
522
00:16:02,549 --> 00:16:07,559
I kind of knew all my contemporaries just getting into uh art,
523
00:16:07,570 --> 00:16:07,760
you know,
524
00:16:07,770 --> 00:16:10,260
out of college are all 10 years younger than me.
525
00:16:10,469 --> 00:16:14,580
And so I need something to uh give me a leg up.
526
00:16:14,590 --> 00:16:15,520
And I realized,
527
00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:15,799
well,
528
00:16:15,809 --> 00:16:21,460
it's the fact that I know how to talk to programmers and I know how to be a liaison.
529
00:16:21,669 --> 00:16:28,289
And pretty quickly I jumped into uh computer art.
530
00:16:28,299 --> 00:16:32,859
But uh within a year I was doing art directing because that was my,
531
00:16:33,150 --> 00:16:33,729
you know,
532
00:16:33,940 --> 00:16:35,950
value that I had II,
533
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,609
I could do art and I could do programming and so I could be a liaison between those things.
534
00:16:40,619 --> 00:16:43,909
So art directing in the multimedia field was really,
535
00:16:44,219 --> 00:16:44,229
uh,
536
00:16:44,239 --> 00:16:45,710
cut out for me.
537
00:16:45,719 --> 00:16:46,520
So we did,
538
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:46,830
uh,
539
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:47,489
you know,
540
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:48,530
lots of those,
541
00:16:48,539 --> 00:16:48,549
uh,
542
00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:51,479
educational games that were big back then,
543
00:16:51,489 --> 00:16:51,510
um,
544
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:52,969
on CD ROM.
545
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,469
And,
546
00:16:54,479 --> 00:16:54,489
uh,
547
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:54,630
yeah,
548
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:55,809
those were the days.
549
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:56,380
Have,
550
00:16:56,390 --> 00:16:58,390
have you always been able to draw though?
551
00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:58,739
Like,
552
00:16:58,750 --> 00:16:59,169
I mean,
553
00:16:59,179 --> 00:16:59,650
you,
554
00:16:59,659 --> 00:17:00,590
you draw so,
555
00:17:00,729 --> 00:17:02,190
so easily,
556
00:17:02,419 --> 00:17:03,010
I mean,
557
00:17:03,210 --> 00:17:03,219
uh,
558
00:17:04,089 --> 00:17:04,109
the,
559
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:04,319
the detail,
560
00:17:04,579 --> 00:17:04,819
I mean,
561
00:17:04,829 --> 00:17:07,689
have you always had that natural ability to be able to draw?
562
00:17:08,698 --> 00:17:08,749
I,
563
00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:10,468
I'd say I've,
564
00:17:10,479 --> 00:17:10,499
uh,
565
00:17:11,310 --> 00:17:14,079
I've always had the natural,
566
00:17:14,089 --> 00:17:14,709
um,
567
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,589
willingness to draw because I,
568
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:24,439
I'm sort of of the opinion that there's like two levels of talent.
569
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:26,420
There's the one level of talent,
570
00:17:26,430 --> 00:17:28,300
which is what I have,
571
00:17:28,310 --> 00:17:37,189
which is just the willingness to try and do it over and over to practice and practice and enjoy the process.
572
00:17:37,199 --> 00:17:39,280
Because if you don't enjoy that process,
573
00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:41,640
you'll never have the quote talent.
574
00:17:41,650 --> 00:17:42,219
You know,
575
00:17:42,349 --> 00:17:44,439
you'll draw a couple of things and say that's ok and,
576
00:17:44,449 --> 00:17:44,729
you know,
577
00:17:44,739 --> 00:17:46,060
you'll go on to something else,
578
00:17:46,069 --> 00:17:47,260
but if you really like it,
579
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:51,680
you'll really work hard at it and then you'll have that level of talent.
580
00:17:51,689 --> 00:17:51,910
Now,
581
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,310
the other level is genius,
582
00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:55,810
which I don't have and very few people have,
583
00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:57,280
I don't know about that.
584
00:17:57,540 --> 00:17:59,099
There are people who,
585
00:17:59,109 --> 00:17:59,619
you know,
586
00:17:59,630 --> 00:18:02,969
they can think in ways that the rest of us can't.
587
00:18:02,979 --> 00:18:05,020
And that's what I'd qualify as genius.
588
00:18:05,030 --> 00:18:05,619
It's a good,
589
00:18:05,949 --> 00:18:10,800
that's a good point because the way that I see that you do things I think that you are a genius by the way.
590
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:16,810
Um And the reason being is because uh from a spatial relations perspective,
591
00:18:17,319 --> 00:18:18,609
you have that down.
592
00:18:18,619 --> 00:18:18,890
I mean,
593
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:20,280
when you draw something,
594
00:18:20,449 --> 00:18:21,650
it is perspective,
595
00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:22,349
I mean,
596
00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,660
everything comes to focal point and everything logically makes sense.
597
00:18:26,670 --> 00:18:28,170
And me with my engineering,
598
00:18:28,180 --> 00:18:31,550
left-handed engineering brain on when I see what you do like,
599
00:18:31,650 --> 00:18:31,849
you know,
600
00:18:31,859 --> 00:18:32,810
just like when we did,
601
00:18:32,819 --> 00:18:34,069
you know flex man,
602
00:18:34,420 --> 00:18:36,790
um it all made sense to me like,
603
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,709
and there's a very few artists and people that I worked through,
604
00:18:39,719 --> 00:18:42,650
worked with uh throughout the years that that do what you do.
605
00:18:43,209 --> 00:18:43,869
So Patrick,
606
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:44,410
this is Curt.
607
00:18:44,420 --> 00:18:49,579
It's an interesting journey you've had that you started off as an art major jump tracks over to music,
608
00:18:49,589 --> 00:18:53,150
got into technology and then you got back into what your heart made,
609
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:54,160
what made your heart sing,
610
00:18:54,170 --> 00:18:54,329
right?
611
00:18:54,339 --> 00:18:58,130
They're drawing the art and what you applied technology to you,
612
00:18:58,489 --> 00:19:00,479
everything along your journey and watching it,
613
00:19:00,489 --> 00:19:00,849
you know,
614
00:19:00,859 --> 00:19:01,579
you hear this,
615
00:19:01,589 --> 00:19:03,209
I'm sure you're very familiar with it.
616
00:19:03,219 --> 00:19:04,260
The starving artist,
617
00:19:04,270 --> 00:19:04,660
you know,
618
00:19:04,670 --> 00:19:09,479
comment at what point did you realize you could start making a living by doing this?
619
00:19:10,270 --> 00:19:10,920
Well,
620
00:19:12,010 --> 00:19:12,040
I,
621
00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:12,119
I,
622
00:19:12,130 --> 00:19:17,979
I've always um been the sort of person who and,
623
00:19:17,989 --> 00:19:19,770
and for good or bad.
624
00:19:19,780 --> 00:19:19,810
I,
625
00:19:19,819 --> 00:19:21,829
I would say there's a lot of people who would,
626
00:19:21,839 --> 00:19:23,390
who would look at this as a bad thing.
627
00:19:23,469 --> 00:19:30,170
I always have thought of uh making a living at something as being sort of the,
628
00:19:30,250 --> 00:19:33,650
the ultimate uh uh proof that you're doing well.
629
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:38,270
And maybe that's another reason I wasn't cut out for the fine arts community.
630
00:19:38,650 --> 00:19:44,219
Um So when I decided to jump from doing programming to doing art,
631
00:19:44,229 --> 00:19:44,459
you know,
632
00:19:44,469 --> 00:19:45,770
I put together a plan,
633
00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:46,619
I said,
634
00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:47,250
you know,
635
00:19:47,260 --> 00:19:47,280
I,
636
00:19:47,290 --> 00:19:50,589
I went to artists that I knew who were making a living at it.
637
00:19:50,739 --> 00:20:02,010
Uh 11 wonderful woman in particular who was at uh uh bun doing a lot of their stuff like uh thief.
638
00:20:02,020 --> 00:20:03,189
Uh What is that?
639
00:20:03,199 --> 00:20:03,209
Uh,
640
00:20:03,219 --> 00:20:04,260
the uh,
641
00:20:04,479 --> 00:20:04,880
oh the,
642
00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:06,530
the thief that jumps around,
643
00:20:06,790 --> 00:20:07,109
bro.
644
00:20:07,489 --> 00:20:08,219
I'm not familiar with,
645
00:20:08,229 --> 00:20:08,390
bro.
646
00:20:08,410 --> 00:20:08,420
Oh,
647
00:20:09,619 --> 00:20:10,219
got it.
648
00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:10,790
Ok.
649
00:20:11,949 --> 00:20:12,410
Anyway,
650
00:20:12,420 --> 00:20:12,910
and she did,
651
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,689
she did Carmen San Diego.
652
00:20:14,699 --> 00:20:17,680
She did a lot of things like that and she was working on computer art and so I,
653
00:20:17,689 --> 00:20:19,380
I kind of went to her as a,
654
00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:20,369
as a,
655
00:20:20,430 --> 00:20:21,150
uh you know,
656
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,489
mentor and got a lot of ideas about how the industry worked and,
657
00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:26,550
uh,
658
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:26,790
you know,
659
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:33,709
started dipping my toe in and there was actually about six months where I was working my computer job all day and then,
660
00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:37,579
uh doing art all night uh on paid jobs.
661
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:39,010
Uh because,
662
00:20:39,020 --> 00:20:44,849
uh I believe that when you uh get a job with a real deadline and uh you know,
663
00:20:44,859 --> 00:20:47,089
payment and people need you to do it,
664
00:20:47,099 --> 00:20:50,469
it's going to focus your attention a lot more.
665
00:20:50,479 --> 00:20:52,369
And so as far as being a,
666
00:20:52,380 --> 00:20:53,979
being a starving artist,
667
00:20:53,989 --> 00:20:54,199
I say,
668
00:20:54,209 --> 00:20:54,670
well,
669
00:20:54,790 --> 00:20:56,510
if you're a starving artist,
670
00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,089
you're probably just kind of wandering around doing whatever you feel like.
671
00:21:00,099 --> 00:21:02,290
And you're not gonna get a lot better quickly.
672
00:21:02,530 --> 00:21:05,380
But if you get a job with a deadline,
673
00:21:06,270 --> 00:21:13,130
you're going to have to do it or starve and it really focuses your attention when you know,
674
00:21:13,140 --> 00:21:13,560
your,
675
00:21:13,569 --> 00:21:15,339
your rent money is coming from it.
676
00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:17,209
And so,
677
00:21:17,219 --> 00:21:19,020
uh I had that plan and,
678
00:21:19,030 --> 00:21:19,199
you know,
679
00:21:19,209 --> 00:21:19,719
within,
680
00:21:19,729 --> 00:21:20,530
within a year,
681
00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:24,930
I was doing art uh full time and haven't looked back since what,
682
00:21:24,939 --> 00:21:27,400
what got you into comics and comic books.
683
00:21:28,510 --> 00:21:28,930
Well,
684
00:21:28,939 --> 00:21:29,819
that,
685
00:21:30,719 --> 00:21:32,260
that is probably my,
686
00:21:32,780 --> 00:21:35,199
the money as a,
687
00:21:35,209 --> 00:21:36,069
as a kid.
688
00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:38,170
I just loved comics.
689
00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:40,550
Uh And my earliest art,
690
00:21:40,790 --> 00:21:41,109
you know,
691
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,770
gods were all in the comics field,
692
00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:45,430
artists doing comics.
693
00:21:45,739 --> 00:21:47,270
And uh no,
694
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,400
that's always been a uh you know,
695
00:21:50,410 --> 00:21:52,489
a boil on my neck ready to pop.
696
00:21:52,689 --> 00:21:57,270
Oh Thanks for that visual visual storytelling.
697
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,060
Hold on a second.
698
00:21:58,680 --> 00:21:58,829
Yeah.
699
00:21:58,839 --> 00:21:59,510
There you go.
700
00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:00,010
We just got,
701
00:22:02,199 --> 00:22:03,589
what's your favorite comic?
702
00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:05,869
What was the one that really took you over the edge early on?
703
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,109
You said you've always been a fan?
704
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,189
Gosh,
705
00:22:09,199 --> 00:22:24,260
uh uh I was uh reading comics uh and collecting them and I ran across this artist from the sixties uh Jim Strano.
706
00:22:24,790 --> 00:22:38,800
And uh he was just a really uh experimental artist who brought a lot of the uh the pop art and art movements into his uh comics art and his storytelling was dynamic.
707
00:22:39,050 --> 00:22:41,859
And uh I just started,
708
00:22:41,869 --> 00:22:42,300
you know,
709
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:48,479
going back and collecting all of his books and then seeing what he was doing uh in the seventies and eighties,
710
00:22:48,489 --> 00:22:52,540
which was uh he had moved more into uh illustration,
711
00:22:52,550 --> 00:22:53,900
book cover illustration.
712
00:22:53,910 --> 00:22:54,459
He had a,
713
00:22:54,469 --> 00:22:59,020
a magazine called Media Scene and I just got into everything he did.
714
00:22:59,030 --> 00:23:01,819
So I'd have to say he was probably my,
715
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,140
my main biggest inspiration.
716
00:23:04,150 --> 00:23:07,979
So anyone who's interested should look up Jim Strano quite a style.
717
00:23:08,709 --> 00:23:09,319
So Patrick,
718
00:23:09,329 --> 00:23:09,829
which,
719
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:11,719
which comics did he draw for.
720
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,050
He uh had a kind of a mercurial career.
721
00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:24,270
He bounced around over the course of uh like five or six years at Marvel uh doing whatever he felt like.
722
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:30,430
And he really only did about 30 less than 40 actual individual issues of things.
723
00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:40,910
But what he started out uh doing was uh he uh took over very early on the Nick Fury Agent of Shield strip.
724
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:46,479
Uh He did that book for uh just a maybe a couple of years.
725
00:23:46,489 --> 00:23:52,170
That was his earliest thing and he really set the style for all of Marvel's uh you know,
726
00:23:52,180 --> 00:23:54,280
uh super spy stuff.
727
00:23:54,290 --> 00:23:55,739
And then he,
728
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:58,589
and then he jumped to uh Captain America.
729
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:00,650
He did only three issues of Captain America,
730
00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:04,170
but he basically redefined the character at that point.
731
00:24:04,180 --> 00:24:08,650
And then he started doing just a little of this and a little of that.
732
00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:10,469
Marvel had a horror magazine.
733
00:24:10,479 --> 00:24:13,859
He did one short story and that,
734
00:24:13,869 --> 00:24:15,199
that is still thought of as,
735
00:24:15,209 --> 00:24:16,099
as like a,
736
00:24:16,109 --> 00:24:17,640
a benchmark in,
737
00:24:17,650 --> 00:24:20,500
in horror comics uh design.
738
00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:29,175
And he did a love story comic where he did it all with this pop art style that no one had ever thought to use in comics.
739
00:24:29,185 --> 00:24:35,655
And he would just bounce around and uh it was a short but amazing career in comics.
740
00:24:35,834 --> 00:24:36,155
So,
741
00:24:36,165 --> 00:24:37,244
so Patrick,
742
00:24:37,265 --> 00:24:38,635
so this is,
743
00:24:38,645 --> 00:24:43,484
this is a good segue because one of the things that we've talked about in bits and pieces and,
744
00:24:43,765 --> 00:24:45,155
and you've talked about is,
745
00:24:45,165 --> 00:24:48,114
is sort of that balance between following your,
746
00:24:48,125 --> 00:24:52,729
your creativity and your passion and then the process and,
747
00:24:52,739 --> 00:24:54,420
and the business of it all.
748
00:24:54,599 --> 00:24:55,410
And uh you had,
749
00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:55,589
you know,
750
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:56,689
you had said this,
751
00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:57,540
um you know,
752
00:24:57,550 --> 00:24:59,260
you were passionate about comics and,
753
00:24:59,270 --> 00:24:59,739
and so you,
754
00:24:59,750 --> 00:25:04,000
and you wanted to be telling stories and that's what kind of like moved your art,
755
00:25:04,010 --> 00:25:08,270
what I've always been interested in your ability to take,
756
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:14,280
to channel that creativity into uh a process where you can,
757
00:25:14,290 --> 00:25:18,939
you can create uh standard outputs uh in a timeline,
758
00:25:18,949 --> 00:25:19,079
you know,
759
00:25:19,089 --> 00:25:19,380
on a,
760
00:25:19,390 --> 00:25:20,479
on a deadline,
761
00:25:20,489 --> 00:25:21,689
on a budget.
762
00:25:21,989 --> 00:25:24,439
Uh Can you talk a little bit about your process?
763
00:25:24,449 --> 00:25:26,900
Because I've always been fascinated with how you,
764
00:25:26,910 --> 00:25:27,079
you know,
765
00:25:27,089 --> 00:25:29,339
how you end up working with us with what we give you.
766
00:25:30,829 --> 00:25:31,310
Well,
767
00:25:31,319 --> 00:25:32,839
the uh well,
768
00:25:32,849 --> 00:25:34,079
the other side of,
769
00:25:34,089 --> 00:25:40,599
of uh what I've uh been doing is we've talked about the multimedia and the comics.
770
00:25:40,609 --> 00:25:46,579
I've also always just uh been fascinated with illustrations,
771
00:25:46,589 --> 00:25:46,939
you know,
772
00:25:46,949 --> 00:25:53,189
the standalone illustrations that tell a story with one picture and,
773
00:25:53,199 --> 00:25:53,739
and that's,
774
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:58,219
that's most of what I've really been doing other than our first uh big graphic novel,
775
00:25:58,229 --> 00:26:02,420
I've been doing a lot of uh illustrations for folk tellers,
776
00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:03,500
uh you know,
777
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:07,930
the covers uh and the interior illustrations.
778
00:26:07,939 --> 00:26:11,910
And as far as the process for that goes,
779
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,439
it's,
780
00:26:12,449 --> 00:26:13,770
um in,
781
00:26:14,069 --> 00:26:19,130
in some ways it has to do with being a reader my whole life,
782
00:26:19,140 --> 00:26:19,390
you know,
783
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,930
sort of a voracious reader.
784
00:26:20,939 --> 00:26:29,030
And I've always uh loved the storytelling uh world and when it comes to drawing,
785
00:26:29,410 --> 00:26:30,979
uh as I've said,
786
00:26:30,989 --> 00:26:31,500
my,
787
00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:32,540
my passion is,
788
00:26:32,550 --> 00:26:33,859
is telling that story.
789
00:26:33,869 --> 00:26:40,640
So the very first thing I always do is I'll try to zero in on part of the story that is,
790
00:26:40,969 --> 00:26:42,859
that is visual and,
791
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:51,250
and doesn't just give an illustration like a character standing there and looking cool or an interesting,
792
00:26:51,260 --> 00:26:51,750
you know,
793
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,089
creature or background or something.
794
00:26:54,449 --> 00:27:08,420
I always try to give the picture a feeling that there was story before it and there's going to be story after it and my action is leading from what happened before to what's going to happen next.
795
00:27:08,430 --> 00:27:08,640
Well,
796
00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:10,060
that's how do you do that?
797
00:27:10,069 --> 00:27:10,290
I mean,
798
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:10,449
that's,
799
00:27:10,459 --> 00:27:11,819
that's amazing thought.
800
00:27:11,829 --> 00:27:13,150
But how do you do that visually?
801
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:13,760
What do you,
802
00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:13,839
I,
803
00:27:14,209 --> 00:27:15,819
I can say just by,
804
00:27:15,849 --> 00:27:16,260
you know,
805
00:27:16,270 --> 00:27:17,359
looking at all that,
806
00:27:17,369 --> 00:27:19,780
the artwork that he's made for us over the years,
807
00:27:19,989 --> 00:27:22,199
all of his artwork is dynamic,
808
00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:23,199
isn't it?
809
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:23,900
But how do you,
810
00:27:23,910 --> 00:27:24,849
how do you get that feeling?
811
00:27:24,859 --> 00:27:29,839
Like you just described Patrick where there's a story before and there's a story after from what you see.
812
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:30,939
Well,
813
00:27:30,949 --> 00:27:31,910
as Steve mentions,
814
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,170
the dynamics is,
815
00:27:33,180 --> 00:27:34,449
is a big part of it.
816
00:27:34,459 --> 00:27:35,150
If you,
817
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,609
if you give your picture a sense of uh motion and even though it's standing still,
818
00:27:40,619 --> 00:27:43,349
you can give it a sense of kinetics by how you keep the,
819
00:27:43,489 --> 00:27:44,670
the lines and,
820
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:51,959
and how people are balanced or unbalanced in the picture and how the composition is balanced or unbalanced.
821
00:27:51,969 --> 00:27:58,229
You can have a very formalistic composition that's uh that looks like it's real stable,
822
00:27:58,719 --> 00:28:00,109
so to speak.
823
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:06,670
Uh or you can have an unbalanced composition that looks like it's falling off the page and going somewhere.
824
00:28:06,719 --> 00:28:07,910
And so visually,
825
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,199
you like to do that.
826
00:28:09,329 --> 00:28:10,550
But also with,
827
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:16,400
with storytelling comes the idea that you want to put pieces of,
828
00:28:16,810 --> 00:28:19,270
of the world that you're in,
829
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:20,989
of the story that you're telling,
830
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:21,209
you know,
831
00:28:21,219 --> 00:28:23,550
people are interacting with each other,
832
00:28:23,619 --> 00:28:24,949
they're not standing there.
833
00:28:24,959 --> 00:28:31,859
They're uh they look like they could be talking to each other about something or the world that you're in.
834
00:28:32,189 --> 00:28:33,319
Uh you know,
835
00:28:33,329 --> 00:28:34,150
be it a,
836
00:28:34,290 --> 00:28:34,609
you know,
837
00:28:34,619 --> 00:28:39,130
say you're on a mountainside or you're in a swamp or you're somewhere else.
838
00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:44,020
The world should look like you as the viewer could walk into it and say,
839
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:44,040
oh,
840
00:28:44,050 --> 00:28:45,599
there's something around the corner there,
841
00:28:45,609 --> 00:28:50,680
I wonder what it is and the characters are looking over there.
842
00:28:50,689 --> 00:28:51,800
And so as the viewer,
843
00:28:51,810 --> 00:28:53,910
you wanna know what are those characters looking at?
844
00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:54,280
Well,
845
00:28:54,290 --> 00:28:55,300
it's interesting Patrick,
846
00:28:55,310 --> 00:29:01,569
because I remember as a kid growing up looking at Spiderman comics and Spiderman never looked like he was standing still,
847
00:29:01,660 --> 00:29:01,839
right?
848
00:29:01,849 --> 00:29:01,920
He,
849
00:29:01,930 --> 00:29:03,380
he looked like he was always moving,
850
00:29:03,390 --> 00:29:04,859
moving one way or another,
851
00:29:04,869 --> 00:29:05,099
right?
852
00:29:05,109 --> 00:29:05,880
Something was always,
853
00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:07,560
always moving.
854
00:29:07,569 --> 00:29:07,790
Yeah,
855
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:14,060
Marvel always had that uh what a very uh huge kinetic emotion going on.
856
00:29:14,069 --> 00:29:15,459
Even if you're just standing there,
857
00:29:15,469 --> 00:29:17,900
you're standing with drama.
858
00:29:18,349 --> 00:29:19,579
What did you do for Marvel,
859
00:29:19,589 --> 00:29:20,079
by the way,
860
00:29:21,060 --> 00:29:25,609
I uh worked in their uh marketing department.
861
00:29:25,619 --> 00:29:31,229
I was a freelancer and I was mainly working on the Marvel Style guide.
862
00:29:31,540 --> 00:29:38,589
So it was uh sort of uh highly rendered uh individual pictures of,
863
00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:40,640
of various characters,
864
00:29:40,650 --> 00:29:40,930
you know,
865
00:29:40,939 --> 00:29:44,959
like I did a whole bunch of thor but then I did a lot of uh you know,
866
00:29:44,969 --> 00:29:47,719
various bad guys and good guys,
867
00:29:47,729 --> 00:29:49,349
uh a few silver surfer,
868
00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:49,650
you know,
869
00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:50,630
things like that.
870
00:29:50,729 --> 00:29:53,290
And that was used in the Marvel Style guide,
871
00:29:53,390 --> 00:29:59,729
which was what they would give to people who were uh uh licensing the Marvel characters.
872
00:29:59,739 --> 00:30:05,109
And so those books they got say you have to go by this official version of the character.
873
00:30:05,660 --> 00:30:09,489
Uh Then I also did some other point of sale marketing things.
874
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:11,229
I i it's been many years,
875
00:30:11,239 --> 00:30:12,250
there was a time where,
876
00:30:12,260 --> 00:30:14,949
where this was like a cultural thing I could mention and,
877
00:30:14,959 --> 00:30:16,770
and everybody of a certain age would go.
878
00:30:16,780 --> 00:30:17,050
Oh,
879
00:30:17,060 --> 00:30:19,150
I remember that was,
880
00:30:19,270 --> 00:30:19,310
uh,
881
00:30:19,329 --> 00:30:20,349
in Target.
882
00:30:20,589 --> 00:30:21,849
They had,
883
00:30:21,859 --> 00:30:21,869
uh,
884
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,189
when the Hulk movie,
885
00:30:23,199 --> 00:30:28,329
the second Hulk movie came out where that was 2008 or nine.
886
00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:31,469
they had these,
887
00:30:31,479 --> 00:30:31,489
uh,
888
00:30:31,770 --> 00:30:33,900
footprints on the floor.
889
00:30:33,910 --> 00:30:36,239
They were like big stickers that,
890
00:30:36,250 --> 00:30:38,199
that Target would put on the floor,
891
00:30:38,209 --> 00:30:41,680
that sort of lead to the toy section and they were the Hulks feet.
892
00:30:41,739 --> 00:30:43,760
Uh That's cool,
893
00:30:43,770 --> 00:30:45,060
tearing up the floor.
894
00:30:45,069 --> 00:30:47,369
I did those as a lot of people of a certain age,
895
00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:48,300
I can say that they go,
896
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:53,420
I remember that I was just gonna say about my size.
897
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:53,550
Yeah.
898
00:30:54,790 --> 00:30:55,329
So yeah,
899
00:30:55,339 --> 00:30:58,150
a lot of uh point of sale things.
900
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,140
Uh Special,
901
00:30:59,150 --> 00:31:00,229
special projects.
902
00:31:00,239 --> 00:31:00,300
Yeah,
903
00:31:00,310 --> 00:31:01,030
that kind of thing.
904
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,199
So I was on contract with them for quite a while.
905
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:03,650
Awesome.
906
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:04,829
Very cool.
907
00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:05,229
Well,
908
00:31:05,239 --> 00:31:05,680
Patrick,
909
00:31:05,689 --> 00:31:07,339
we appreciate your time today.
910
00:31:07,510 --> 00:31:09,130
Um Just before we,
911
00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:10,579
before we let you go.
912
00:31:10,739 --> 00:31:12,040
Um I mean,
913
00:31:12,050 --> 00:31:12,890
and by the way,
914
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:17,150
what you said in this uh in this chat was it's gold.
915
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:17,569
I mean,
916
00:31:17,579 --> 00:31:18,150
for,
917
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,310
for visual story,
918
00:31:19,479 --> 00:31:20,109
we really sell,
919
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:24,890
just leave like leave the listeners with uh it's a different point of view.
920
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:25,079
I mean,
921
00:31:25,089 --> 00:31:26,930
what you what you shared,
922
00:31:26,939 --> 00:31:32,589
it's a different point of view to look at the world through a visual storytelling lens.
923
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,430
So for the people that are listening,
924
00:31:34,459 --> 00:31:34,709
like,
925
00:31:34,719 --> 00:31:37,229
what are some best practices?
926
00:31:37,239 --> 00:31:39,869
Whether you're a whether you're an artist or not.
927
00:31:40,020 --> 00:31:42,050
Um What's some ways that,
928
00:31:42,060 --> 00:31:42,709
uh you know,
929
00:31:42,719 --> 00:31:43,359
you could,
930
00:31:43,709 --> 00:31:48,290
you could adjust your lens to look at uh stories in a more visual way.
931
00:31:50,770 --> 00:31:51,239
Hm.
932
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:52,319
How about that?
933
00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:54,079
How about that?
934
00:31:54,130 --> 00:31:54,229
Yeah.
935
00:31:57,310 --> 00:31:57,670
Don't,
936
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,780
don't try to stump the guest again.
937
00:32:01,619 --> 00:32:02,109
No.
938
00:32:03,439 --> 00:32:05,489
See Kurt would give him a lay up.
939
00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:05,810
You know,
940
00:32:05,819 --> 00:32:06,800
that's the team.
941
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:10,160
I have a,
942
00:32:10,170 --> 00:32:11,390
I know he can answer it.
943
00:32:12,020 --> 00:32:12,510
Go ahead.
944
00:32:12,959 --> 00:32:13,739
Uh I,
945
00:32:14,270 --> 00:32:24,359
I think uh I think a big part of it if people want to um do visuals to go along with stories the way I do.
946
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:26,189
Um It,
947
00:32:26,199 --> 00:32:26,670
it,
948
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,310
it doesn't exactly answer your question,
949
00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:30,239
but I think it's very important as a,
950
00:32:30,250 --> 00:32:36,000
as an aspect of that uh is to read,
951
00:32:36,010 --> 00:32:37,060
read the story,
952
00:32:37,069 --> 00:32:49,729
imagine what's happening and then allow yourself to do things that you wouldn't normally think of,
953
00:32:49,739 --> 00:32:57,819
allow yourself to be creative and allow yourself to think of stupid things,
954
00:32:58,260 --> 00:33:04,530
allow yourself to do things that you wouldn't normally think of.
955
00:33:04,540 --> 00:33:06,689
Uh sketch a lot,
956
00:33:06,699 --> 00:33:08,890
do a lot of little tiny drawings,
957
00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:22,359
never spend too long on any one thing and come up with lots of different ideas and allow yourself to fail along the way uh and keep,
958
00:33:22,369 --> 00:33:23,859
uh you know,
959
00:33:23,869 --> 00:33:28,760
keep an open mind that don't ever stop yourself before.
960
00:33:28,770 --> 00:33:29,819
You've tried it.
961
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:31,130
How about that?
962
00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:31,170
Yeah.
963
00:33:31,180 --> 00:33:31,979
That's awesome.
964
00:33:31,989 --> 00:33:32,729
That's sage advice.
965
00:33:32,739 --> 00:33:36,310
So where can people see your work?
966
00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:36,839
Of course,
967
00:33:36,849 --> 00:33:42,260
they can go to uh folk Tillers Studios dot com or folk tillers dot com and see Patrick's work.
968
00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:43,949
But where can they see like the,
969
00:33:43,959 --> 00:33:46,229
the full depth and breadth of,
970
00:33:46,239 --> 00:33:47,030
of your art?
971
00:33:47,859 --> 00:33:48,530
I've,
972
00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:49,560
I've got a,
973
00:33:49,569 --> 00:33:50,069
uh,
974
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:58,920
a website that has a number of pieces on it and I probably ought to update it more often says everybody with a website.
975
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:04,349
Uh it's uh uh mega flow graphics dot com,
976
00:34:05,290 --> 00:34:10,540
megaflow graphics dot com.
977
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:12,439
And it's got a lot of my work there.
978
00:34:12,449 --> 00:34:15,239
It's got uh comics work,
979
00:34:15,250 --> 00:34:21,879
uh book illustration work uh covers and it's even got a little section with some of my multimedia.
980
00:34:22,879 --> 00:34:23,610
Excellent.
981
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:24,050
Well,
982
00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:24,439
again,
983
00:34:24,449 --> 00:34:24,889
Patrick,
984
00:34:24,899 --> 00:34:32,689
thanks for being on and uh we appreciate everything that you do and uh we're so happy that you're part of the folk teller family.
985
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:34,050
Well,
986
00:34:34,060 --> 00:34:35,010
thanks guys.
987
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:37,199
And uh this was great to be a part of,
988
00:34:37,209 --> 00:34:42,810
I've been listening to your podcast since it started and it's been a lot of great entertainment.
989
00:34:42,820 --> 00:34:45,649
So you guys are or something.
990
00:34:47,389 --> 00:34:47,860
All right,
991
00:34:47,870 --> 00:34:48,709
we'll talk to you soon.
992
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:49,100
All right,
993
00:34:49,110 --> 00:34:49,850
thanks Patrick.
994
00:34:49,860 --> 00:34:50,520
Nice to meet you.
995
00:34:50,709 --> 00:34:50,979
Take care,
996
00:34:51,189 --> 00:34:51,429
take care,
997
00:34:51,439 --> 00:34:52,080
Patrick.
998
00:34:52,820 --> 00:34:53,399
OK,
999
00:34:53,409 --> 00:34:54,030
bye bye.
1000
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:54,489
Cheers.
1001
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:55,729
All right.
1002
00:34:55,739 --> 00:34:56,129
So,
1003
00:34:56,139 --> 00:34:57,330
uh again,
1004
00:34:57,340 --> 00:34:57,689
you know,
1005
00:34:57,699 --> 00:34:58,610
Patrick,
1006
00:34:58,620 --> 00:34:59,659
he said he wasn't,
1007
00:34:59,959 --> 00:35:02,929
uh I guess any genius never calls himself a genius.
1008
00:35:02,939 --> 00:35:04,510
It has to be put upon him.
1009
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:06,870
Yeah,
1010
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:08,219
talented,
1011
00:35:08,229 --> 00:35:09,270
very talented.
1012
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,090
So if you get a chance,
1013
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:12,590
check out his work,
1014
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:12,810
I mean,
1015
00:35:12,820 --> 00:35:13,669
if you look at our stuff,
1016
00:35:13,679 --> 00:35:14,120
you'll see it.
1017
00:35:14,129 --> 00:35:17,250
But uh mega flow graphics dot com but anyway,
1018
00:35:17,260 --> 00:35:22,409
so this got me thinking there's a term called visual literacy.
1019
00:35:23,179 --> 00:35:25,620
There's a really cool video out there.
1020
00:35:25,629 --> 00:35:35,360
Uh Martin Scorsese did about uh the necessity for visual literacy and he gives a really good description of it.
1021
00:35:35,370 --> 00:35:35,659
You can,
1022
00:35:35,669 --> 00:35:38,620
if you Google Martin Scorsese visual literacy,
1023
00:35:38,629 --> 00:35:39,120
you'll find it.
1024
00:35:39,129 --> 00:35:41,030
It's I think it's like a seven or eight minute video,
1025
00:35:41,229 --> 00:35:46,959
but he talks about um it's important to understand uh the visual medium.
1026
00:35:46,969 --> 00:35:49,830
And I really think in modern storytelling,
1027
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,419
you absolutely have to.
1028
00:35:52,860 --> 00:35:54,270
Uh because people are reading,
1029
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,290
I think people are not reading less,
1030
00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:57,709
but they're reading differently,
1031
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,010
they're reading in smaller chunks and what you're seeing like,
1032
00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:01,199
like,
1033
00:36:01,209 --> 00:36:01,350
well,
1034
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:02,530
look at a magazine,
1035
00:36:02,750 --> 00:36:05,479
it's more pictures and text now,
1036
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:06,540
uh websites,
1037
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:07,610
more pictures than text.
1038
00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:09,600
It's like minimize the text,
1039
00:36:09,770 --> 00:36:12,360
maximize the visual and the imagery.
1040
00:36:12,370 --> 00:36:13,449
And that's kind of like,
1041
00:36:13,629 --> 00:36:13,840
you know,
1042
00:36:13,850 --> 00:36:14,459
modern,
1043
00:36:14,469 --> 00:36:14,669
you know,
1044
00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:18,520
modern storytelling is that it is that the problem the problem with that is,
1045
00:36:18,530 --> 00:36:22,590
is uh images don't index text into search engines.
1046
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,246
So you can't find anything if your whole entire website is just based on images.
1047
00:36:27,256 --> 00:36:29,006
So from a digital perspective,
1048
00:36:29,016 --> 00:36:30,595
that's not a good action plan.
1049
00:36:30,785 --> 00:36:31,446
You have to,
1050
00:36:31,456 --> 00:36:38,206
you really have to have a blend between the text and the story for you to be able to do well on the web and be successful.
1051
00:36:38,256 --> 00:36:39,865
That's great insight from the tech guy.
1052
00:36:39,875 --> 00:36:40,595
It really is.
1053
00:36:40,906 --> 00:36:42,006
So from the OK.
1054
00:36:42,016 --> 00:36:42,795
And that is,
1055
00:36:42,805 --> 00:36:44,166
but from the storytelling side.
1056
00:36:44,176 --> 00:36:45,525
What's the right balance?
1057
00:36:45,721 --> 00:36:45,862
Yeah.
1058
00:36:46,741 --> 00:36:47,471
For me,
1059
00:36:47,481 --> 00:36:47,652
it's,
1060
00:36:47,662 --> 00:36:48,211
it's like,
1061
00:36:48,221 --> 00:36:48,781
I think we,
1062
00:36:48,791 --> 00:36:51,092
our brains are being constantly rewired,
1063
00:36:51,102 --> 00:36:51,281
right?
1064
00:36:51,291 --> 00:36:52,711
If you look at over the decades,
1065
00:36:52,721 --> 00:36:53,862
over the centuries,
1066
00:36:54,072 --> 00:36:58,562
how visual has become even more important in the last 2030 years,
1067
00:36:58,572 --> 00:36:58,802
we're,
1068
00:36:58,812 --> 00:36:59,001
I mean,
1069
00:36:59,011 --> 00:36:59,931
we're getting rewired.
1070
00:36:59,941 --> 00:37:00,322
My,
1071
00:37:00,332 --> 00:37:00,352
our,
1072
00:37:00,362 --> 00:37:00,471
I,
1073
00:37:00,481 --> 00:37:08,949
I truly believe our brains are being rewired by the use of technology and things that we're doing now that we're becoming more visually uh a astute that,
1074
00:37:08,959 --> 00:37:10,629
that visual is our.
1075
00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:12,429
Before in education,
1076
00:37:12,439 --> 00:37:14,030
there used to be different types of learning,
1077
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:14,189
right?
1078
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:15,149
You're an auditory learner,
1079
00:37:15,159 --> 00:37:16,110
you had a visual learner,
1080
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,649
you had somebody who was kinesthetic,
1081
00:37:17,659 --> 00:37:17,800
right?
1082
00:37:17,810 --> 00:37:18,159
They have to,
1083
00:37:18,419 --> 00:37:19,100
I I,
1084
00:37:19,449 --> 00:37:20,229
in my opinion,
1085
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,929
I see a shift more and more to visual that people are visual that they've learned through visual.
1086
00:37:25,010 --> 00:37:28,010
And so that's an important part of the storytelling because without that,
1087
00:37:28,290 --> 00:37:28,800
um you know,
1088
00:37:28,810 --> 00:37:29,290
like you said,
1089
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:31,070
people are reading differently now.
1090
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:31,620
And I think in,
1091
00:37:31,629 --> 00:37:32,989
in my opinion,
1092
00:37:33,169 --> 00:37:35,300
they're reading more visually as a result.
1093
00:37:35,310 --> 00:37:37,270
Look at Power Point for an example,
1094
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:38,949
like when they invented powerpoint,
1095
00:37:38,959 --> 00:37:42,959
it was supposed to be very visual and there's only supposed to be a small amount of text,
1096
00:37:42,969 --> 00:37:45,040
but like one point that Power point,
1097
00:37:45,050 --> 00:37:46,399
not power points.
1098
00:37:46,969 --> 00:37:48,699
And so what ended up happening is,
1099
00:37:48,709 --> 00:37:48,870
you know,
1100
00:37:48,879 --> 00:37:49,659
a lot of industry,
1101
00:37:49,669 --> 00:37:50,060
they,
1102
00:37:50,070 --> 00:37:50,419
you know,
1103
00:37:50,429 --> 00:37:50,800
they,
1104
00:37:50,810 --> 00:37:51,419
they started to,
1105
00:37:51,429 --> 00:37:56,300
to use it like it was a book and I've said to those death by powerpoint presentations.
1106
00:37:56,429 --> 00:37:58,080
But that's a prime example of,
1107
00:37:58,090 --> 00:37:58,750
of,
1108
00:37:58,760 --> 00:37:58,969
you know,
1109
00:37:58,979 --> 00:38:00,520
visual literacy.
1110
00:38:00,530 --> 00:38:00,709
That's,
1111
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,750
that's a really good example.
1112
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:03,500
In fact,
1113
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:04,659
I've told clients,
1114
00:38:04,939 --> 00:38:07,159
uh powerpoint is not a prompter,
1115
00:38:07,169 --> 00:38:07,620
right?
1116
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:09,500
That's a good way to put it.
1117
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:09,979
I mean,
1118
00:38:09,989 --> 00:38:10,500
like,
1119
00:38:10,510 --> 00:38:13,639
put it all in perspective and there's like uh that 10,
1120
00:38:13,649 --> 00:38:16,250
2030 rule for Power Point,
1121
00:38:16,260 --> 00:38:17,189
it's supposed to be,
1122
00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:18,270
I'm gonna probably get this wrong,
1123
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,909
but it's supposed to be no more than 10 slidess,
1124
00:38:23,419 --> 00:38:26,010
no more than uh 20 point font.
1125
00:38:26,510 --> 00:38:31,169
And the 30 is uh like no more than 30 years old,
1126
00:38:31,909 --> 00:38:32,520
30 years old.
1127
00:38:33,010 --> 00:38:34,760
But that it's basically keep it short,
1128
00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:36,820
keep it short and sweet and highly visual.
1129
00:38:36,830 --> 00:38:51,899
And Steve this got me thinking about when we do Hollywood pitch decks because this is to me visual storytelling and what it means in the modern world is the visuals are the gateway to a deeper experience and I'll explain that.
1130
00:38:51,909 --> 00:38:57,219
So a good example is these pitch decks we have to put together the initial pitch check.
1131
00:38:57,229 --> 00:38:57,389
I mean,
1132
00:38:57,399 --> 00:38:57,899
we're like,
1133
00:38:57,909 --> 00:38:58,899
you're consolidating,
1134
00:38:58,909 --> 00:39:00,389
it's very few words,
1135
00:39:00,399 --> 00:39:05,219
but it's highly visual and it's dynamic visuals because you're trying to get people that don't know.
1136
00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:05,919
Yeah,
1137
00:39:05,929 --> 00:39:06,229
I mean,
1138
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,219
they have the attention span of a nat.
1139
00:39:08,229 --> 00:39:09,080
So it's like,
1140
00:39:09,090 --> 00:39:09,340
OK,
1141
00:39:09,350 --> 00:39:11,729
this is bright and pretty and there's movement and,
1142
00:39:11,929 --> 00:39:13,699
and there's uh there's a little blurb.
1143
00:39:13,709 --> 00:39:19,350
So I know what's going on and the whole idea of the pitch deck is all right to get them to say,
1144
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:19,409
yeah,
1145
00:39:19,419 --> 00:39:20,510
let me see more.
1146
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:25,580
Let me see the script or let me see the books and then they'll go into the text.
1147
00:39:25,590 --> 00:39:26,709
They wanna go deeper,
1148
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,330
but it has to tell the story.
1149
00:39:28,340 --> 00:39:28,989
It does.
1150
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,149
That's the challenge.
1151
00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:30,520
It's like I,
1152
00:39:30,530 --> 00:39:33,770
I just read um it was the description of what they said.
1153
00:39:33,780 --> 00:39:36,780
Uh The guy was saying uh he was a famous poet and I can't think of it.
1154
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:42,239
It was like uh a great poem is maximum impact in minimum space.
1155
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:45,629
And I think that's what visuals do for you.
1156
00:39:45,780 --> 00:39:45,949
Well,
1157
00:39:45,959 --> 00:39:46,560
as an example,
1158
00:39:46,570 --> 00:39:48,300
when I do keynote presentations,
1159
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:48,820
I,
1160
00:39:48,830 --> 00:39:51,090
I use powerpoint or different formats,
1161
00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:52,469
but a lot of visuals,
1162
00:39:52,479 --> 00:39:59,143
I I'd say literally 85 to 90% of my presentation from the Power Point side is visual rules every once in a while,
1163
00:39:59,153 --> 00:39:59,962
a few words,
1164
00:39:59,972 --> 00:40:01,062
some statistics,
1165
00:40:01,353 --> 00:40:03,022
uh some video as well.
1166
00:40:03,032 --> 00:40:04,173
But for that reason,
1167
00:40:04,183 --> 00:40:04,343
right,
1168
00:40:04,353 --> 00:40:07,383
people are looking to consume in different ways as a result and,
1169
00:40:07,393 --> 00:40:08,093
and you know,
1170
00:40:08,103 --> 00:40:11,222
the storytelling can come verbally in my case.
1171
00:40:11,232 --> 00:40:11,452
And I,
1172
00:40:11,462 --> 00:40:11,952
but,
1173
00:40:11,962 --> 00:40:13,373
but like to your point,
1174
00:40:13,383 --> 00:40:13,812
Joseph,
1175
00:40:13,822 --> 00:40:13,992
that,
1176
00:40:14,002 --> 00:40:15,373
that people are reading differently,
1177
00:40:15,383 --> 00:40:16,252
I guess in your opinion,
1178
00:40:16,262 --> 00:40:19,835
what are the different ways that people are reading this as far as that literacy,
1179
00:40:19,845 --> 00:40:20,835
that storytelling,
1180
00:40:20,845 --> 00:40:21,875
visual literacy?
1181
00:40:21,885 --> 00:40:22,395
What is it?
1182
00:40:23,325 --> 00:40:23,555
Well,
1183
00:40:23,565 --> 00:40:24,045
I think like,
1184
00:40:24,055 --> 00:40:24,355
OK,
1185
00:40:24,365 --> 00:40:25,236
so I go back to,
1186
00:40:25,246 --> 00:40:25,426
you know,
1187
00:40:25,436 --> 00:40:27,565
magazines and periodicals.
1188
00:40:27,575 --> 00:40:29,615
Um the articles are shorter there,
1189
00:40:29,625 --> 00:40:30,555
there's more,
1190
00:40:30,585 --> 00:40:31,696
there's more pictures.
1191
00:40:31,706 --> 00:40:32,025
In fact,
1192
00:40:32,035 --> 00:40:37,795
when you hear people talk about actually reading a novel or reading a book or reading for pleasure.
1193
00:40:37,805 --> 00:40:38,746
It's like,
1194
00:40:39,226 --> 00:40:39,595
uh,
1195
00:40:39,605 --> 00:40:41,956
they have to set the time aside and it's like,
1196
00:40:41,976 --> 00:40:42,016
uh,
1197
00:40:42,025 --> 00:40:42,766
you know,
1198
00:40:42,775 --> 00:40:43,666
I want my,
1199
00:40:43,825 --> 00:40:45,775
my coffee and my blanket and it's,
1200
00:40:45,785 --> 00:40:49,129
it's like a comfort thing and it's like something like that.
1201
00:40:49,139 --> 00:40:51,959
They have to set aside where before you had to,
1202
00:40:52,250 --> 00:40:55,959
you were reading a lot just to get through your day,
1203
00:40:55,969 --> 00:40:57,620
whether it was your business or whatever.
1204
00:40:57,780 --> 00:40:58,810
Um So,
1205
00:40:58,820 --> 00:40:59,060
you know,
1206
00:40:59,070 --> 00:41:05,010
I think that's the technology definitely like the reading on the screen and that's changed everything.
1207
00:41:05,149 --> 00:41:07,020
So now you've really got to consolidate,
1208
00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:07,889
like Steve said,
1209
00:41:07,899 --> 00:41:09,320
you still have to tell the story.
1210
00:41:09,649 --> 00:41:10,820
Um But now you have to,
1211
00:41:10,830 --> 00:41:14,729
it has to be more highly visual and less and less text.
1212
00:41:14,969 --> 00:41:17,320
Um And there's more graphic novels now too,
1213
00:41:17,330 --> 00:41:17,729
right?
1214
00:41:17,810 --> 00:41:17,899
Yeah,
1215
00:41:17,909 --> 00:41:19,120
that's another thing.
1216
00:41:19,129 --> 00:41:19,280
Yeah.
1217
00:41:19,939 --> 00:41:21,679
So wrapping all this up,
1218
00:41:21,689 --> 00:41:21,820
I mean,
1219
00:41:21,830 --> 00:41:22,399
we again,
1220
00:41:22,409 --> 00:41:22,760
we could,
1221
00:41:22,770 --> 00:41:23,800
we could just go on forever,
1222
00:41:23,810 --> 00:41:26,540
but a visual storytelling.
1223
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:26,679
What are,
1224
00:41:26,689 --> 00:41:27,919
what are we walking away with?
1225
00:41:27,929 --> 00:41:28,139
I mean,
1226
00:41:28,149 --> 00:41:28,300
what,
1227
00:41:28,310 --> 00:41:32,360
what do people need to be sensitive or looking out for?
1228
00:41:32,370 --> 00:41:32,389
Yeah,
1229
00:41:32,399 --> 00:41:33,500
right off the bat.
1230
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:35,689
I know first and foremost is that there has to,
1231
00:41:35,699 --> 00:41:38,459
it's best to have a visual attached to the narrative.
1232
00:41:38,469 --> 00:41:39,149
In other words,
1233
00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:40,290
if I have a narrative,
1234
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:42,689
it's best to attach some type of visual to that.
1235
00:41:42,899 --> 00:41:43,360
Uh you know,
1236
00:41:43,370 --> 00:41:45,050
Patrick talked about his gift of,
1237
00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:46,949
of drawing and what he does with graphics,
1238
00:41:46,959 --> 00:41:49,370
whether it be from the computer or with his hand.
1239
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:50,629
Um That,
1240
00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:53,629
that's an important part of that story is seeing that visual,
1241
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:54,169
like you said,
1242
00:41:54,179 --> 00:41:54,610
um the,
1243
00:41:54,620 --> 00:41:59,719
it's amazing that he talks about the story that comes before that visual and afterwards,
1244
00:41:59,729 --> 00:42:01,090
by looking at that visual,
1245
00:42:01,530 --> 00:42:02,219
that's great,
1246
00:42:02,229 --> 00:42:02,489
Steve.
1247
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:03,080
What about you?
1248
00:42:03,209 --> 00:42:07,719
I think the future is gonna be very interesting in visual storytelling because we,
1249
00:42:07,729 --> 00:42:12,070
we did a podcast on A I and A I is gonna have a huge impact on,
1250
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,669
on what happens in the future,
1251
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:14,090
you know,
1252
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:17,570
like um applications like mid journey and um you know,
1253
00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:19,189
and uh GP T four,
1254
00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:19,489
you know,
1255
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:19,750
and the,
1256
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,389
and the combination of those,
1257
00:42:21,399 --> 00:42:22,729
those technologies together,
1258
00:42:22,739 --> 00:42:23,090
I mean,
1259
00:42:23,219 --> 00:42:24,629
things are gonna change guys.
1260
00:42:25,149 --> 00:42:25,179
Yeah,
1261
00:42:26,459 --> 00:42:27,189
quickly.
1262
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:27,820
For,
1263
00:42:27,830 --> 00:42:32,010
for me it's the balance between the visual and the text of the narrative,
1264
00:42:32,020 --> 00:42:32,679
the narrative.
1265
00:42:32,689 --> 00:42:33,590
So um and,
1266
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,209
and how you got to look at it every iteration because it,
1267
00:42:37,219 --> 00:42:40,000
whoever your audience is and whatever you're trying to do,
1268
00:42:40,129 --> 00:42:41,840
you're gonna have to strike that balance.
1269
00:42:41,850 --> 00:42:42,129
So,
1270
00:42:42,489 --> 00:42:43,830
um all right guys.
1271
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:44,709
Another good one.
1272
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:45,729
Thanks for Patrick.
1273
00:42:46,250 --> 00:42:46,419
Oh Yeah,
1274
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:47,270
cool.
1275
00:42:47,919 --> 00:42:47,939
Yeah.
1276
00:42:48,270 --> 00:42:54,090
Um So everyone check out mega flow graphics dot com if you want to see Patrick stuff.
1277
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:56,979
And uh thanks for letting us be in your ears.

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