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00:00:07.599Do you have this strong intuitive feeling that you are just destined to build a business and a life that stands out amongst the rest, but you just don't know how to get there?
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00:00:13.279I feel you, I've been there, and I can see that you are another fellow flamingo just waiting to take flight.
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00:00:28.719My name is Megan Shallow, social media guru and founder of BL Media Consulting, and this is exactly what I have done through building my own beautiful empire that has become a unicorn in the social media management world, as well as a safe space for entrepreneurs to feel empowered with their digital marketing.
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00:00:33.920All of this was founded on the basis of three magical words breathe, nourish, and love.
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00:00:44.479Are you ready to learn how to be that entrepreneur who shows up online and offline with confidence, has a business that makes an impact in this world, and lives a life full of connection, love, prosperity, and joy?
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00:00:47.039If the answer is yes, then let's go.
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00:01:04.000Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Fly Flamingo Fly, where really I just love talking about all things social media and how to support small businesses in getting into the online space while continuing to keep community at the forefront.
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00:01:11.840And today I have a guest with me who is an SEO expert to like the nth degree in the next level.
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00:01:20.480Um, I just love how she weaves in social media and SEO so perfectly because I intuitively know what it's all about, but I never know how to explain it.
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00:01:23.840And uh Tiana is able to put it all into beautiful words.
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00:01:30.480So today I have Tiana Mamalek with me, owner of SMB Marketing School and SEO.
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00:01:35.040I'm gonna I'm gonna term genius um for you, Tiana.
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00:01:37.519So welcome, welcome to the podcast.
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00:01:40.719And uh tell everyone who you are.
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00:01:43.200Uh yes, hi, my name is Tiana.
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00:01:48.640I have been in SEO and digital marketing for we're coming on 12 years now, actually.
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00:01:52.480Um, I got into it, I started in finance and I hated it.
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00:01:53.280It was awful.
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00:01:57.519Um, so while I was in school, I flipped over to marketing and I never left.
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00:02:07.359So it's my only big girl job, and I have worked in everything from lead gen uh for software companies to nonprofits, and I've also worked in many, many different agencies.
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00:02:13.520So a lot of real world experience in many different industries and business sizes.
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00:02:14.319Amazing.
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00:02:18.400And now, SMB Marketing School, you have how long have you had that?
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00:02:21.439It's been uh just over two years now.
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00:02:23.439Um one year full time.
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00:02:24.240Yeah.
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00:02:25.680Oh man.
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00:02:26.240Yeah.
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00:02:31.599Entrepreneurs these days, I swear, you guys just you can build things so fast.
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00:02:33.599I love it.
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00:02:41.039It's well, I think part of it too is that I I like really love what I do, so it makes it really easy to work real hard.
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00:02:44.560Yeah, and you've got you've got a whole bunch of different clients.
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00:02:49.759You help do lead gen through SEO and Kades, correct?
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00:02:50.240Yes.
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00:02:51.199Okay.
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00:02:56.400And what does so like those that are listening, you probably know.
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00:02:58.319Um, the SEO world has changed.
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00:03:01.120I mean, a blog's still good, things are still good on the website.
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00:03:07.759SEO, like foundations will never, well, I'll never say never, never go away, but um they will predict.
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00:03:09.360Yeah.
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00:03:16.240Um, but I know, especially for local businesses, the SEO game has changed drastically.
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00:03:26.319And like in a good way, I think, because there's an opportunity for small businesses to level up in SEO and be found by not playing like just the old school game.
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00:03:28.479So, Deanna, I'm just gonna kind of let you run with it.
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00:03:35.280What when small business owners come to you and they want traffic, where do you start?
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00:03:43.919When it comes to SEO, if you're talking about for Google, if you're a small business, the best place to start is called the Google Business Profile.
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00:03:46.400Um, it used to be called Google My Business.
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00:03:47.759Um, you've probably heard of it.
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00:03:52.000If you just search on Google, you should always have um an account for that.
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00:03:54.400And technically you should have an account for each each location.
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00:03:59.520So if you have different locations, I would have an account for each location, call it exactly what it is.
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00:04:00.719Don't get fancy.
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00:04:09.599When it comes to Google Business Profile, it's really about being very clear and specific, not trying to weave your branding in there.
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00:04:13.039Um, so this is what'll help you show up in the map pack on Google.
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00:04:20.160So that is the map at the top of the page that usually shows you like the three locations, and then you also have like the little dots of where other other things are.
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00:04:27.920So the map pack pulls directly from Google Business Profile and Chat GBT is actually starting to pull those maps in as well.
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00:04:31.199This is where people also leave you reviews.
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00:04:36.720So those reviews are really important, and I personally think everybody should be working on reviews.
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00:04:44.399If you are gonna do one place to hold all your reviews, Google has consistently been at the forefront and the most important.
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00:04:51.680So while all the other review sites are great, uh, some of them die, some of them move on, some of them don't become as important.
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00:04:53.199Google has consistently been important.
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00:04:56.160So if you're gonna put your reviews somewhere, that is where I recommend putting them.
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00:04:56.959Amazing.
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00:04:58.959There are like two things that I clocked right away.
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00:05:00.079Map pack.
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00:05:02.959I have never heard that term before, which I love.
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00:05:10.639And then also that Google Business profile is now called Google Business Profile instead of GMB.
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00:05:12.959I'm like, when did that switch happen?
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00:05:16.160Because obviously in my head, it's been so long.
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00:05:18.480I'm just like, Google my business, remember?
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00:05:22.800I find it so frustrating because I'll still talk to people and I'm like, Google my business.
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00:05:24.480Wait, whoa, wait, Google Business Profile.
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00:05:28.480If you look them both up, they both it it comes up both ways, but they did change the name.
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00:05:29.439I'm not really sure why.
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00:05:30.480I love GMB.
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00:05:32.639I feel like that was so like safe and secure.
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00:05:33.920So such a weird choice.
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00:05:36.879There'll be a meme for that later on in like five years.
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00:05:37.439Remember?
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00:05:42.959And so, okay, the mat pack.
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00:05:46.079So one thing, what is it about that?
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00:05:57.839Like, how do people rank higher on that when, like, as I I mean, I have so many clients, again, not the expert, so I just like you know, tell them to go find someone who is, but they do want to climb that.
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00:06:04.399And what is your recommendation when people do want to move up in that ranking?
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00:06:10.240Well, so the map pack has changed quite a lot, but there's some kind of consistency.
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00:06:13.759So there's a few things you can do to get your ranking higher up on Map Pack.
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00:06:27.680Originally, it used to be your Google business profile, Google My Business, um, would have multiple different locations and you would talk a lot about your locations, and all of your reviews would have your location in it, and Google would say, okay, I know exactly where you are and what you do.
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00:06:31.279I'll make you, you know, show up higher for these keywords.
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00:06:35.439We've kind of moved into this place where we want to be hyper specific.
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00:06:45.759So there is a service and location section, and this is something I think a lot of people sleep on is if you are a service-based business, if you do not have a brick and mortar store, you should still be on Google My Business.
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00:06:48.399Um, because people are still looking for your services.
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00:06:52.800And what a lot of people think is that I am global.
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00:06:55.279I can help anybody everywhere.
00:06:55.519 -->
00:07:01.279The problem with that thinking when it comes to search is that search audiences are cold audiences.
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00:07:05.680So they need some reason to feel connected to you in a certain way.
00:07:05.839 -->
00:07:09.519It is easier to get local traffic than it is to get global traffic.
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00:07:14.560So I always kind of use the analogy of like big fish, little little pond, little fish, big pond.
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00:07:20.720You want to be a big fish in a little pond, get your search traffic up and then start growing global.
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00:07:36.560So if you are, say, a social media agency, you still want to start with your location and be very, very specific and clear on your website and on your Google business profile that you are in that location and you will you are more likely to show up in the Map Pack.
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00:07:41.360One of the number one keywords in the world in every language is near me.
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00:07:44.800So if you're thinking, like, how do I rank for near me?
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00:07:48.720You just make sure Google is super clear on where you're located.
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00:07:49.120Okay.
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00:07:52.079Location, location, location.
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00:07:55.519It's important here too, people.
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00:07:58.319Now, okay, so location SEO.
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00:08:04.959When people are writing on social media and doing things on social media, does that play a role?
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00:08:06.800Yes.
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00:08:08.000So much so.
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00:08:13.439There's actually it's interesting because there's two different search functions in social.
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00:08:21.199So there's the in-platform search, and then now all of the platforms are also pulling onto Google.
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00:08:29.600So if you have your location in your posts and you state your location, maybe you have it in your bio because they're pulling from different places depending on where people are searching.
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00:08:33.679You can show up in Google underneath your Map Pack.
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00:08:44.080And what we're trying to do when it comes to search, especially for either very specific location keywords or your branded keywords, you want to take up as much of that first page of Google as you possibly can.
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00:08:53.519So if you have a Google My Business, if you have social media, if you have your website, now you are the entire first half of that page if you do it really well.
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00:08:54.960That's truly what you want.
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00:09:10.559So when you're thinking of like your social and where you'd put location for that, Google does pull now from your bio your captions, and it will sometimes pull from the um videos as well if it can read them.
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00:09:14.240So that one's still a little bit kind of sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
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00:09:15.600So you want to make sure that they're also another.
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00:09:18.399Yeah.
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00:09:24.960And so, because that's I mean, I've always believed this, but I know like this is like changed exponentially.
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00:09:26.720You said all social media platforms.
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00:09:30.720Like I know they announced Meta as being like one that's gonna be pulling.
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00:09:33.120Are all social media platforms helping?
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00:09:37.039I know Reddit is like the secret sauce of SEO.
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00:09:42.559It's a wild one, but it's definitely on the rise of conbos with even my clients.
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00:09:46.720So I think everybody does it now.
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00:09:51.600I'm not sure about X slash Twitter and Truth Social.
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00:09:54.159Let's be, I don't actually know about those ones.
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00:09:56.080Um, TikTok has always pulled.
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00:09:57.600It actually pulled pre-Meta.
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00:10:05.039So Meta was actually the late comer when it comes to like pulling onto Google um or pulling into any of the um the AI systems.
00:10:05.279 -->
00:10:10.240So um as like Pinterest has almost always been number one.
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00:10:11.919Reddit was number two.
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00:10:15.039I think they've sort of switched, but it depends on the industry you're in.
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00:10:22.080Um, and then TikTok and all of Meta um platforms, so threads, Instagram, and Facebook all pull in.
00:10:22.240 -->
00:10:27.279Uh so when you're thinking of your social platforms, I would just almost always think of them as potential search.
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00:10:33.200And part of the reason I also tell people to start thinking that way is the internet is changing real fast.
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00:10:37.919Um, and we have to be prepared, but not scared.
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00:10:45.279So, to do that, anything you're doing on your website, slightly start copying that in other places too.
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00:10:50.720So if you're very focused on your location, say you're a plumber, you're a counselor, like your location matters a lot.
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00:10:56.879If you are very, very clear on your website, but your social media is like, I have no idea where you are.
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00:11:01.519Um, that's not gonna help you because people can also search in Instagram.
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00:11:07.519And we're seeing especially younger audiences go into Instagram and be like, I need a plumber in Surrey.
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00:11:09.039Like they don't go to Google first.
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00:11:11.600This is not as common, but it is shifting.
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00:11:15.679So you want to make sure that all of the platforms know exactly where you are.
00:11:15.759 -->
00:11:18.639So when this does start shifting more, you are prepared.
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00:11:21.759Love this conversation.
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00:11:29.759So for me, like I got into social media because I loved the idea of creating like things online that would drive offline traffic.
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00:11:46.159Like, that's my like all of my like teammates have like different expertise, and mine is brick and mortar because I'm like, I feel like the puppeteer being like, all right, guys, new cool place, let's go over here, and like I can just like build a community within a community, and it's so much fun.
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00:11:49.200Um and so that's my favorite.
00:11:49.279 -->
00:11:52.639But what I do know is like we have e-commerce brands that come through as well.
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00:11:54.159And so, what is the difference?
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00:12:03.120Like, what do what's the difference between what local businesses need to pay attention to when it comes to SEO and what e-commerce needs to pay attention to?
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00:12:09.840Because I feel like it's slightly different games, obviously, because you're dealing with a global network with e-commerce in a different way.
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00:12:12.000So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
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00:12:19.840Yeah, so if you are a small business and you have a brick and mortar location, is absolutely like the main thing you should be focusing on.
00:12:19.919 -->
00:12:23.759Honestly, you should have pages for neighborhoods at this point in your location.
00:12:23.919 -->
00:12:29.840Say you're a plumber, um, I live in Surrey, you'd want like a Clayton like specific page.
00:12:30.159 -->
00:12:34.639You would want um Cloverdale specific pages, like you want all of those.
00:12:34.720 -->
00:12:38.879And they don't, these pages don't have to link in your main navigation menu.
00:12:39.039 -->
00:12:43.440So that top hamburger menu that you have, not every page on your site needs to be up there.
00:12:43.519 -->
00:12:45.279You can have what's called floating pages.
00:12:45.360 -->
00:12:47.919Um, in SEO, we're calling them AI scan pages.
00:12:48.000 -->
00:12:51.840They used to be um service like location-specific service pages.
00:12:51.919 -->
00:12:53.919So whatever you call them, those should be there.
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00:12:55.600Location should be number one.
00:12:55.759 -->
00:13:03.519And then the main services you do, which I a lot of the time small businesses I see um get creative with how they name their services.
00:13:03.679 -->
00:13:07.360And when it comes to those types of industries, we don't want to do that.
00:13:07.519 -->
00:13:14.720So it's great to be branded and it's great to be very, you know, like you have this beautiful, wonderful brand and all these cool words that you use.
00:13:14.879 -->
00:13:18.240But when it comes to your services, they should be super clear and super distinct.
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00:13:19.840We don't want to get creative there.
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00:13:22.159Um, you can get creative in the headings after that.
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00:13:29.120It just should be very like if you are a plumber and you are fixing toilets, it should be like plumber that fixes toilets in Cloverdale.
00:13:29.200 -->
00:13:30.879Like it should be that specific.
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00:13:32.720That's what people are searching for.
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00:13:37.039Um, if you are an e-commerce brand, location is a little bit different.
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00:13:45.120So, what I would say is that you need to have the location triggers on your site, unless you truly don't want to be found in your location.
00:13:45.200 -->
00:13:51.679So, I do know there are some e-commerce brands I work with that are technically in Canada but sell in the US, they don't want to trigger their location.
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00:13:53.039That is a different strategy.
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00:14:02.399But if you are an e-commerce and you're selling products and you're selling in Canada, the US, and you're located in Surrey or Vancouver, Vancouver's a really good example.
00:14:02.559 -->
00:14:17.039Um, I would still have Vancouver as your main location on your contact page, in your footer, in all of the important places, but you don't need special floating pages because you are really going to be pushing more the type of products that you sell.
00:14:17.120 -->
00:14:26.799So your product pages, collection pages that sell products, those will be a bit more important because your strategy is more towards the products that you sell instead of the location specific.
00:14:27.039 -->
00:14:34.879However, I do still always genuinely say that location matters because if people are local to you, they are more likely to purchase.
00:14:35.039 -->
00:14:42.080So the only time you wouldn't put location in as like a main strategy piece is if you truly are like, I do not want people to know I'm from Canada.
00:14:42.159 -->
00:14:43.360We want them to think we're from the US.
00:14:43.519 -->
00:14:45.519And then even then, I would probably buy a P.O.
00:14:45.600 -->
00:14:47.039box and still put your location.
00:14:47.200 -->
00:14:48.799That's my personal opinion.
00:14:48.960 -->
00:14:52.240Um, but it's your company, your choice on that one.
00:14:52.559 -->
00:14:52.799Right.
00:14:53.039 -->
00:14:55.679So location really does matter for everyone.
00:14:55.919 -->
00:14:58.720And e-commerce can have a Google business profile as well.
00:14:58.799 -->
00:15:01.440And it's just run, it doesn't have a location.
00:15:01.840 -->
00:15:02.480Uh yes.
00:15:02.559 -->
00:15:07.519So you can actually just say, like, turn off my location and instead they give you a service area.
00:15:07.600 -->
00:15:09.759So you'd specifically put like the service area.
00:15:10.000 -->
00:15:19.679If you are doing that, and this is my my advice from many years of of um testing, don't just put a country because it's not, it's it's pointless.
00:15:19.759 -->
00:15:20.879You might as well not do it.
00:15:21.039 -->
00:15:22.080Still put a city.
00:15:22.159 -->
00:15:26.799So don't put like Canada, put Vancouver or wherever your home base is.
00:15:26.960 -->
00:15:30.879It doesn't need to be specific, but they still want the city that you are servicing.
00:15:31.039 -->
00:15:36.080So if someone could potentially go and drive to you and pick something up, that's what they want in the Google business profile.
00:15:36.480 -->
00:15:36.799Okay.
00:15:37.840 -->
00:15:38.320All right.
00:15:39.279 -->
00:15:40.480So many good things.
00:15:40.720 -->
00:15:44.960Now I know with the rise of AI, two things are coming into play.
00:15:45.120 -->
00:15:47.919One, people are trying to use AI to do SEO.
00:15:48.799 -->
00:15:54.720And two, AI is becoming a search engine optimization tool.
00:15:55.120 -->
00:15:56.559Or like a search tool.
00:15:56.720 -->
00:15:57.039Sorry.
00:15:57.600 -->
00:15:59.759So it's becoming a tool to help people market.
00:16:01.440 -->
00:16:01.840Market.
00:16:02.159 -->
00:16:05.200I feel like there's probably gaps, which I can't wait for you to tell us what that is.
00:16:05.279 -->
00:16:07.759Because you just be like, Chat GPT, make this SEO friendly.
00:16:07.919 -->
00:16:08.480Is it?
00:16:10.480 -->
00:16:14.159And then also how people are starting to rank on GPT.
00:16:14.240 -->
00:16:15.039So where do you want to start?
00:16:16.000 -->
00:16:25.039I'll start with using Chat GPT because small businesses, I always want like it's important, you don't have the budget yet to do these big things.
00:16:25.200 -->
00:16:26.799So you want to use these tools.
00:16:26.960 -->
00:16:28.960Um, how do you use them effectively?
00:16:29.200 -->
00:16:32.480We have been testing, we went straight in head first.
00:16:32.879 -->
00:16:36.080We're gonna use AI to write all of our content.
00:16:36.240 -->
00:16:36.720This is great.
00:16:36.799 -->
00:16:38.080This is when AI first came out.
00:16:38.159 -->
00:16:39.279Everyone else was doing it.
00:16:39.440 -->
00:16:43.919And what we found is AI has a system for how they write articles.
00:16:44.000 -->
00:16:47.039And it is the same for everybody.
00:16:47.200 -->
00:16:48.960They kind of have a little template.
00:16:49.039 -->
00:16:54.399And even when you put your own templates in, you create your own GPTs, which you can do on especially like Chat GPT.
00:16:54.480 -->
00:16:58.720Claude tends to write better and it has a little bit um different ways of doing that.
00:16:58.960 -->
00:17:01.840But essentially, they all have these like GPTs that you can create.
00:17:02.000 -->
00:17:04.799It still has this formula for creating blogs.
00:17:04.880 -->
00:17:19.279And the problem is um, I heard some someone in the SEO industry uh who talked about like the snake eating its own tail, um, where we're all creating the same content and the content sucks to read.
00:17:19.680 -->
00:17:26.480And I'll admit that for some of my clients, when um AI first came out, we started writing bad content.
00:17:26.640 -->
00:17:40.319Um, because no one, once small businesses realize that they can write their own articles, they think, oh, now why am I paying you to write an article if I can get GPT to do it and it's$30 a month and you're, you know, way, way more.
00:17:40.720 -->
00:17:54.480The problem is what we started seeing is that the more of these AI blogs that you write and post on your website, the more you sound like everybody else, the more people hate reading your website, and the less traffic you're actually getting.
00:17:54.640 -->
00:17:57.519So for some industries, it is working.
00:17:57.759 -->
00:17:59.680Like I work with a lot of law firms.
00:17:59.759 -->
00:18:02.960Um, and in law, it's hard to make those articles fun.
00:18:03.200 -->
00:18:03.759It is.
00:18:03.920 -->
00:18:05.440We kind of want cut and dry.
00:18:05.519 -->
00:18:08.480This is what the rule in law is, and this is what you're gonna see.
00:18:08.960 -->
00:18:23.759Now, even in those industries, we're starting to see a disconnect in the articles because ChatGPT is gonna write you an article on like, this is section seven, and this is why you can't, you know, have fine or like you have to share your finances for this.
00:18:24.000 -->
00:18:26.319What it's not doing is nuance in the article.
00:18:26.400 -->
00:18:29.519And this is something we used to do and we're actually bringing back in.
00:18:29.839 -->
00:18:39.279So examples of families who could use this or need to use this, uh, case studies on how this has been done, those types of pieces are being removed.
00:18:39.440 -->
00:18:48.559And then if you've read a ChatGPT article recently, you'll find that they introduce and they exit a paragraph almost the same every single time.
00:18:48.720 -->
00:18:50.079And it just sucks.
00:18:50.319 -->
00:18:52.319So we have to start removing those.
00:18:52.480 -->
00:18:57.839So even if you're writing and using AI for your articles, you need to go back and edit it.
00:18:57.920 -->
00:19:01.039There's a lot of stuff you can cut out, be very harsh.
00:19:01.279 -->
00:19:05.519Um, it is very good at the technical portion of SEO.
00:19:05.599 -->
00:19:09.119So keeping the keywords in place, AI will do a really good job of that.
00:19:09.279 -->
00:19:11.839So you don't need to overthink, I think, the SEO part.
00:19:11.920 -->
00:19:13.519I think SEO is going to become a lot easier.
00:19:13.599 -->
00:19:14.720Some people will never want to do it.
00:19:14.880 -->
00:19:15.279I get that.
00:19:15.359 -->
00:19:16.640I'm so comfortable with you guys.
00:19:16.799 -->
00:19:17.519I love doing it.
00:19:17.599 -->
00:19:20.079If you don't want to do it, there are people out there who will do it.
00:19:20.240 -->
00:19:32.400But if you're thinking of it in that sense, AI will keep the very technical part of SEO in your article, but you need to make it so that you would actually want to send this article to your clients.
00:19:32.559 -->
00:19:35.759Because a lot of people will be like, oh, well, that article looks great for Google.
00:19:36.000 -->
00:19:37.279We're not writing for Google.
00:19:37.359 -->
00:19:38.640We are writing for human beings.
00:19:38.720 -->
00:19:41.200We just want to make sure Google can find your article.
00:19:41.440 -->
00:19:47.839So if you feel like that, you would not send that article to your favorite client, it should not be posted on your website.
00:19:49.599 -->
00:19:50.319Amazing.
00:19:50.640 -->
00:19:54.000How important are photos on websites for SE?
00:19:54.400 -->
00:19:56.640I think they are very important.
00:19:56.720 -->
00:19:58.559So there's a lot of stuff in photos you can do.
00:19:58.640 -->
00:20:01.200You get what's called alt text in a photo.
00:20:01.359 -->
00:20:03.119If you know how to do that, do it.
00:20:03.279 -->
00:20:04.960If you don't, please YouTube it.
00:20:05.119 -->
00:20:07.440It is so easy and it really, really helps.
00:20:07.599 -->
00:20:10.559What alt text is is it's how Google finds your photo.
00:20:10.720 -->
00:20:14.000So it's kind of like the um the keywords that you put in your photo.
00:20:14.240 -->
00:20:20.880Uh, ChatGPT, um, all of the AI systems have started pulling photos as well.
00:20:21.039 -->
00:20:24.880Google itself has been doing photos for a long time where you can just do photo searches.
00:20:24.960 -->
00:20:27.920If you ever wanted to know how you come up for those photo searches, that's how.
00:20:28.079 -->
00:20:32.960It's a really good way to kind of give Google extra information on what keywords you're trying to focus on.
00:20:33.200 -->
00:20:36.720Um, I also believe, too, we should be moving towards video.
00:20:36.960 -->
00:20:39.359Um, I think video content is going to be more important.
00:20:39.519 -->
00:20:50.400If you feel comfortable in front of a camera and you are in the plumbing industry, just imagine how good that page could be if you were on the front of it talking for two minutes about what is in the article.
00:20:50.559 -->
00:20:53.680So people, because people learn differently, people read differently.
00:20:53.920 -->
00:21:02.559So if you um if someone comes to your article and they don't want to read it and you have a two-minute summary video of your face, they will feel so connected to you.
00:21:02.720 -->
00:21:05.279And you are much more likely to get a conversion.
00:21:05.519 -->
00:21:06.079Interesting.
00:21:06.240 -->
00:21:08.960So actually, having a video on top of a blog.
00:21:09.359 -->
00:21:10.799I haven't seen that before.
00:21:11.039 -->
00:21:12.640I love them in sales pages.
00:21:12.720 -->
00:21:14.319I don't think they're as common for blogs yet.
00:21:14.400 -->
00:21:15.119We're working on them.
00:21:15.279 -->
00:21:15.440Okay.
00:21:15.680 -->
00:21:19.279Um, I find a lot of a lot of small business owners don't want to be on video.
00:21:19.759 -->
00:21:20.240So that's true.
00:21:20.880 -->
00:21:22.000Is real, everyone listening.
00:21:22.079 -->
00:21:24.880That's literally the only thing you have to start doing.
00:21:25.680 -->
00:21:29.440Video is going to be a drastic.
00:21:30.000 -->
00:21:31.920There's going to be a drastic fundamental shift.
00:21:32.000 -->
00:21:36.079Like we are being primed and taught to watch video.
00:21:36.480 -->
00:21:40.160Uh, we love TV, we love YouTube Shorts, we love all of these things.
00:21:40.319 -->
00:21:43.680We actually watch video more often than we even think we do.
00:21:43.839 -->
00:21:48.799Um, and then everybody's just writing articles on their blogs, and we think that's just going to be the way it is.
00:21:49.039 -->
00:21:55.759Now, for search, I do think video is not quite there yet, in a sense of you should probably summarize your video.
00:21:55.839 -->
00:21:58.240So your article needs to be very related to the video.
00:21:58.480 -->
00:22:06.960Um, but what I like to believe when it comes to SEO, and a lot of SEOs don't believe this, SEO should also have a conversion um function to it.
00:22:07.039 -->
00:22:09.039Like you need to get leads from the work you're doing.
00:22:09.119 -->
00:22:12.960So if you're just writing blogs and you're not getting leads, it's kind of a waste of your time.
00:22:13.119 -->
00:22:19.039So, yes, we want to get to the top of Google, but we want to get to the top of Google so people find us and buy stuff from us.
00:22:19.359 -->
00:22:27.519So adding videos to all of your articles or adding videos to sales pages or adding videos to your home page, make it feel more comfortable.
00:22:27.680 -->
00:22:33.039Like if you're on social media and you're being entertained, you feel comfortable, you feel good, you'll buy from that.
00:22:33.119 -->
00:22:36.160And people are starting to really purchase off of social media.
00:22:36.559 -->
00:22:39.200Why not bring some of those pieces to your website as well?
00:22:39.440 -->
00:22:39.680Right.
00:22:39.839 -->
00:22:41.599There is an integration that's starting to happen.
00:22:41.680 -->
00:22:43.440It's like they aren't in silo anymore.
00:22:43.599 -->
00:22:48.319Like, I'm investing in SEO, but eh, organic social can go over there.
00:22:48.480 -->
00:22:50.160Like it and vice versa.
00:22:50.319 -->
00:22:56.160Like you really have to, like, I know our clients like are the most successful when they got all the wheels turning.
00:22:56.559 -->
00:23:04.480They've got newsletters, they've got blogging, they've got website that they're continuing to like evolve and update, and then obviously they have a Google page and they have organic.
00:23:04.799 -->
00:23:08.079And then they get to a place where they're like, all right, well, we'll do paid now.
00:23:08.319 -->
00:23:17.759But like that foundation, how much importance do you emphasize on the foundation of organic everything?
00:23:18.720 -->
00:23:20.480Organic should always be first.
00:23:20.640 -->
00:23:34.640If you can get free traffic, like imagine your system was you posted on social media, you had a good video on social media, you took that social media video, hopped it onto your website, and created a blog out of it.
00:23:34.799 -->
00:23:36.720People were interested in it over here.
00:23:36.880 -->
00:23:38.079Now it can be over here.
00:23:38.240 -->
00:23:42.319When people ask me about ads, I always say ads do not fix a broken system.
00:23:42.480 -->
00:23:53.839So if you don't know if your product or service can sell yet, you should not be paying for ads because I'm 100% sure at that point you do not have the budget you need to test whether ads will sell your product or service or not.
00:23:54.079 -->
00:23:56.880Ads are really good to turn up a system that's already working.
00:23:57.039 -->
00:24:01.599So if you have your organic in place and you were doing well on social and you're like, now I want to grow.
00:24:01.680 -->
00:24:06.000I want to hire more people, I want to move into the US or into Canada.
00:24:06.240 -->
00:24:09.279I want to, you know, start getting my product into more homes.
00:24:09.359 -->
00:24:11.519Um, I want more people to come and buy my service.
00:24:11.680 -->
00:24:15.039I've got two people, um, two lawyers, and now I want a third.
00:24:15.119 -->
00:24:17.279Like, that's when ads should come into play.
00:24:17.519 -->
00:24:25.519Ads should never be the first thing because, like, yes, it takes a lot of time, but social media is free.
00:24:25.680 -->
00:24:26.880It's technically free.
00:24:27.119 -->
00:24:28.400Organic is free.
00:24:28.559 -->
00:24:30.319You do not actually have to pay for these.
00:24:30.400 -->
00:24:35.119And as small business owners, I know we hate hearing this, but like you do have to put in the work to get started.
00:24:35.279 -->
00:24:40.240Um, those are the two places you should start putting the work in, then start investing in ads.
00:24:40.319 -->
00:24:50.000And I do have to say, either invest in the courses you need to do ads or invest in a person because I have seen too many people waste so much money on ads.
00:24:50.160 -->
00:24:56.240I have a client right now, he's in the pool service industry and he he is doing extremely well in his ads.
00:24:56.319 -->
00:25:06.720But we just did a massive audit and realized he had been spending thousands of dollars on ads that were only converting at like so such a nominal percent.
00:25:06.799 -->
00:25:10.240So, I mean, they were doing well, but he kept turning his spend up to make them go there.
00:25:10.480 -->
00:25:15.680So make sure you know what you're doing when it comes to ads because you can waste a lot of money.
00:25:15.759 -->
00:25:20.079And I don't think they're as easy as some of the systems make it feel.
00:25:20.640 -->
00:25:21.039Totally.
00:25:21.200 -->
00:25:24.079And Google and Facebook do not give refunds, my friends.
00:25:24.240 -->
00:25:25.759They do not give refunds.
00:25:26.880 -->
00:25:28.880That is why they are so happy.
00:25:30.400 -->
00:25:33.359Uh with like what are some?
00:25:33.519 -->
00:25:46.319So something that I know like with a lot of small business owners is like, like you said, they're doing it on their own, they're learning, but like what are some numbers from a paid ads perspective that people like should that know they're good, like a CPC?
00:25:46.480 -->
00:25:47.359What's a good one?
00:25:47.519 -->
00:25:58.000Like what percentages should they be looking for in other like are there specific numbers that if people were to if they're running ads right now and they're like, shoot, I might be losing a bunch of money.
00:25:58.160 -->
00:26:02.559Um what are some numbers you would tell them to start flagging?
00:26:03.200 -->
00:26:04.640I think it's more important.
00:26:04.720 -->
00:26:07.839So I really like to look at return on ad spend.
00:26:07.920 -->
00:26:11.599So every dollar that you spend in ads, you get X amount more.
00:26:11.839 -->
00:26:16.400A return on ad spend of 1.5 to two nowadays is actually really good.
00:26:16.480 -->
00:26:20.960And a lot of the times what we need to think for ads because it has gotten very competitive.
00:26:21.039 -->
00:26:26.799Like if you look like on what um Instagram, sometimes you get three ads in a row at this point.
00:26:26.880 -->
00:26:29.440Like ads are part of the system.
00:26:29.759 -->
00:26:35.359So because it's become so competitive, we used to be able to easily get like 10 times return on ad spent.
00:26:35.440 -->
00:26:38.720Maybe not easy, but you had a big enough budget, you could get 10 times return on ad spent.
00:26:38.799 -->
00:26:44.319There's a lot of e-commerce brands now where two times is really good, or 1.5 times may even be good.
00:26:44.400 -->
00:26:57.359And then you need to make sure you have the email and uh return customer sort of pieces in place so that you take that 1.5 and you turn it into lifetime value of your clients that you're getting.
00:26:57.599 -->
00:27:02.000Now, I when it comes to numbers, it's hard because industries are different.
00:27:02.160 -->
00:27:08.079So, like I have a licensed insolvency trustee and they sell bankruptcy and consumer proposals.
00:27:08.240 -->
00:27:09.119Very complicated.
00:27:09.279 -->
00:27:12.480We do really, really well in ads, they have a very long sales cycle.
00:27:12.720 -->
00:27:22.160In that one, they have like a seven times return on ad spend, but their cost per conversion cost per lead is in the$500 range.
00:27:22.319 -->
00:27:31.839But when we did their return on ad spend calculation, which if you are thinking about ads, like chow chat chat GPT, chat GPT will help you with these numbers.
00:27:32.000 -->
00:27:44.319These are not things you need to pull out, but give it how much a customer normally costs for you, roughly what you think your budget is going to be, and just make sure that your budget can get you to a point that a two times return on ad spend makes sense.
00:27:44.559 -->
00:27:49.359So, what sometimes people will do is like, on average, counselors get a cost per click of around$2.
00:27:49.759 -->
00:27:52.559I work with a lot of counselors, so that one's pretty easy to pull out.
00:27:52.640 -->
00:27:55.920Um, but they get an average on two of$2 per click.
00:27:56.160 -->
00:28:00.319If you are getting X amount of clicks, can you get the percentage of conversions you need?
00:28:00.400 -->
00:28:01.839And this gets a little more complicated.
00:28:01.920 -->
00:28:07.200This is why I do recommend working with ad people, because we are in the background doing all these numbers for you.
00:28:07.279 -->
00:28:09.680Um, but your budget needs to cover that.
00:28:10.160 -->
00:28:16.160Or if you don't want to be so complicated and you just want to say, I want to spend a thousand dollars, you'd need to make a thousand dollars.
00:28:16.240 -->
00:28:17.680How many sales do you need out of that?
00:28:17.920 -->
00:28:20.559Make sure that you at least have that number in your head.
00:28:20.720 -->
00:28:24.079Like, how many sales do you need to make sure that this is gonna work?
00:28:24.319 -->
00:28:26.079Um, a lot of people don't do that.
00:28:26.240 -->
00:28:28.400And a lot of people don't put the tracking in place either.
00:28:28.640 -->
00:28:32.880So I have looked at so many accounts where I'm like, well, what are you tracking in your ads?
00:28:32.960 -->
00:28:34.640And they're like, oh, I didn't know how to do that.
00:28:34.880 -->
00:28:37.920You need to tell the system what you want it to do.
00:28:38.000 -->
00:28:40.960So if you want it to make a sale, you need to tell Meta that.
00:28:41.200 -->
00:28:46.559Otherwise, um, it's going to optimize to the closest thing it can, which is usually clicks.
00:28:46.720 -->
00:28:49.200And we don't want looky loose because then we're paying for looky loose.
00:28:49.440 -->
00:28:54.079Um, so those are the types of things I would think about over like the specifics.
00:28:54.240 -->
00:28:56.319Sometimes too, you can look up industry averages.
00:28:56.400 -->
00:29:02.640So if you ask Trash GPT, I'm pretty sure you could just say, like, hey, I'm in this industry, what's the average of a cost per click for me?
00:29:02.720 -->
00:29:04.000Um, and those will come up.
00:29:04.079 -->
00:29:09.039So those are the pieces like I know as small business owners, we have a lot of stuff we have to do.
00:29:09.279 -->
00:29:19.519Um, it is important that you still know this because if you're thinking of your ads, like you have someone managing it or you don't have someone managing it, you're still still spending hundreds of dollars a month, it's not worth wasting that.
00:29:19.680 -->
00:29:20.960So it's not worth spacing.
00:29:21.039 -->
00:29:23.039Every penny counts at this point at the beginning.
00:29:23.519 -->
00:29:29.440And then also the throwing money at ads for like the saving grace, not a good idea.
00:29:30.000 -->
00:29:34.240It will not work for you because I find once we get there, we don't have enough budget.
00:29:34.319 -->
00:29:36.559And it does usually take a few months to figure it out.
00:29:36.720 -->
00:29:39.039I know a lot of people are like, ads are so quick.
00:29:39.359 -->
00:29:44.880They are, but we're still talking like three months before you're really seeing like a true return on investment.
00:29:45.519 -->
00:29:46.000Right.
00:29:46.160 -->
00:29:49.279And if you're not, what do you suggest people do?
00:29:49.359 -->
00:29:52.240If they're not seeing a return on investment, where should they look?
00:29:52.880 -->
00:29:55.359That is a hard one because it does depend on the industry.
00:29:55.440 -->
00:30:04.799But I do think so, if you're truly not seeing return on investment, I would Would start doing those numbers again, there's a good chance you miscalculated how much budget you need.
00:30:05.039 -->
00:30:08.480So I'm gonna bring back the example of my bankruptcy guys.
00:30:08.640 -->
00:30:11.920When I first started working with them, we thought their ads weren't working.
00:30:12.000 -->
00:30:22.319And what we realized, because we finally started actually writing down, they don't have a CRM system, they're not big enough for that, but they have a Google Sheet that we've started and we write down every single lead.
00:30:22.480 -->
00:30:28.640And what we started learning is that it takes six to eight months for somebody to convert off of their ads.
00:30:28.880 -->
00:30:31.839So we thought in the first six months they were selling nothing.
00:30:32.000 -->
00:30:35.039And so concise, I was like, oh my gosh, these ads aren't working.
00:30:35.119 -->
00:30:42.240But what we realized when we put a system in place is that they are converting at a very, very high rate for their industry.
00:30:42.400 -->
00:30:44.480And they just had a really long sales cycle.
00:30:44.720 -->
00:30:57.359So if you are worried your ads aren't working, I would start by actually writing down the leads or the sales that you're getting and start breaking down where you think these pieces are falling apart because it's not always the ads themselves.
00:30:57.440 -->
00:31:00.720Sometimes it's budget, sometimes it's that you have a longer sales cycle.
00:31:00.880 -->
00:31:04.240Sometimes I worked with a what did he do?
00:31:04.400 -->
00:31:06.640He did car detailing and car wraps.
00:31:06.960 -->
00:31:09.359And we found that his system was the problem.
00:31:09.519 -->
00:31:15.200So he's getting 45, 50 leads a month, but he was taking too long to return the call.
00:31:15.680 -->
00:31:19.839And his competitors were calling within the first two or three hours.
00:31:19.920 -->
00:31:22.319And he had a 24 hour response time.
00:31:22.640 -->
00:31:31.599And we know nowadays, with our, you know, extreme excessive use of our phones, people don't want to wait 24 hours to get a return, like a quote from you.
00:31:31.839 -->
00:31:34.160They want instant gratification.
00:31:34.319 -->
00:31:38.160So if you are paying for leads, you also need to make sure your system is in place for that.
00:31:38.319 -->
00:31:42.559So a lot of the times I find things aren't working because the system is not in place.
00:31:43.759 -->
00:31:44.319So important.
00:31:45.039 -->
00:31:47.200So the system comes first.
00:31:48.480 -->
00:31:55.920And I know, like, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs were creative systems almost we're like repel from them.
00:31:56.160 -->
00:32:00.640We like we know we have to have them, but a lot of creative entrepreneurs don't love doing them.
00:32:00.799 -->
00:32:05.039So what do you support in like who do they look for to help them with that?
00:32:05.200 -->
00:32:06.960Obviously, like someone like you.
00:32:07.200 -->
00:32:08.960Can a VA do something like that?
00:32:09.119 -->
00:32:11.359Like, is that something that they could get their VA to do?
00:32:11.440 -->
00:32:15.839Is it actually better to have someone build the system that has the background that you have?
00:32:16.480 -->
00:32:19.119I love to say find a systems person.
00:32:19.279 -->
00:32:20.640I know that's not always the case.
00:32:20.799 -->
00:32:25.839If you do have a VA, when I say systems, sometimes like for every business, that looks different.
00:32:26.000 -->
00:32:27.680Sometimes that means a CRM.
00:32:27.839 -->
00:32:32.240Um, like I have a law firm that has a CRM and I have a law firm that just uses a Google Sheet.
00:32:32.400 -->
00:32:37.839I think your system can be what you need it to be, but you need to be writing down your leads and sales per month.
00:32:37.920 -->
00:32:43.680Um, and a lot of people think like, oh, the system tells me how many leads or sales I have per month.
00:32:43.759 -->
00:32:45.759And I have all my leads in my email.
00:32:45.839 -->
00:32:47.920So I should, I can just go look at those.
00:32:48.160 -->
00:32:53.119You need to look at them in like a have we closed these people or not sort of situation.
00:32:53.279 -->
00:33:02.079I find for businesses the easiest way to get started, get your VA or you, or your husband or wife, your partner, whoever's working with you, whoever loves admin.
00:33:02.559 -->
00:33:07.519Yes, exactly, whoever loves admin to start putting those leads in a Google Sheet.
00:33:07.680 -->
00:33:08.720Just as simple as that.
00:33:08.880 -->
00:33:10.160And then like color code them.
00:33:10.240 -->
00:33:12.079If they converted, you color it green.
00:33:12.240 -->
00:33:17.920If they didn't, or they were um like completely not a good lead, um, red.
00:33:18.160 -->
00:33:21.599And then if you're getting a lot of reds, that means your audience is off.
00:33:21.839 -->
00:33:30.160If you're and now, small business owners, everybody likes to say, like, oh, this lead is bad because they didn't want to, you know, buy my stuff.
00:33:30.400 -->
00:33:32.799That does not necessarily mean it's a bad lead.
00:33:32.960 -->
00:33:35.119That means that person didn't want to purchase from you.
00:33:35.279 -->
00:33:36.319That is totally different.
00:33:36.480 -->
00:33:40.240A bad lead means false information in their submission form.
00:33:40.480 -->
00:33:49.920It means the person is in the wrong location and can't purchase from you, or they are just completely like out to lunch about what they think your services are.
00:33:50.160 -->
00:33:52.720Those are bad low quality leads.
00:33:53.039 -->
00:33:57.680A good quality lead is a person who's like, no, I don't want to purchase from you.
00:33:57.920 -->
00:34:03.279That means maybe something's missing, but that was a good quality lead because they could have purchased from you.
00:34:03.519 -->
00:34:05.759So I think the distinction is also important.
00:34:06.160 -->
00:34:06.880That is important.
00:34:06.960 -->
00:34:14.559I mean, yeah, I definitely had a client that had some ads running and they were getting phone calls for massages and they didn't do any massages and they were like, wait, what?
00:34:14.719 -->
00:34:19.280And then they were getting calls from Florida and they were in Arizona and they're like, what is happening?
00:34:19.519 -->
00:34:21.519And so they had to go to their ads guy.
00:34:21.840 -->
00:34:24.800So if you do, like, what is some advice?
00:34:25.039 -->
00:34:26.719I mean, you've probably heard so many stories.
00:34:26.880 -->
00:34:30.400It's probably very similar to how I've I've heard so many stories, but organic social media.
00:34:30.559 -->
00:34:35.119What is your advice to a small business owner who eventually knows they're gonna have to outsource this?
00:34:35.360 -->
00:34:42.239What do they need to look for in a good person that can support with paid, especially?
00:34:42.400 -->
00:34:46.880Because paid is like the risk is so high, lots of money lost really fast.
00:34:47.920 -->
00:34:48.639Come back.
00:34:49.039 -->
00:34:53.280Um, but really just someone who specializes in lead gen, like you do.
00:34:53.599 -->
00:34:54.239What are they looking?
00:34:54.320 -->
00:34:55.199What do you gotta look for?
00:34:55.679 -->
00:34:57.280Ask the questions.
00:34:57.920 -->
00:35:01.039When you ask how much budget do I need to spend?
00:35:01.199 -->
00:35:07.679Because a lot of people think we should just be pulling these, you know, budgets out of our backpacks.
00:35:07.840 -->
00:35:12.960Um, they're gonna ask you, how much do you have available?
00:35:13.199 -->
00:35:19.840When they say that, because it is going to happen no matter what, I could tell you you need a budget of$5,000 and you'll be like, you're up to lunch.
00:35:19.920 -->
00:35:22.079Like, let's look at what the real budgets actually are.
00:35:22.320 -->
00:35:29.679When they ask you that at the same time, come back to them and say, okay, how many sales and how many clicks do you think I'm gonna get out of this budget?
00:35:29.840 -->
00:35:32.559They should be able to answer those basic questions for you.
00:35:32.800 -->
00:35:41.599If they don't, they probably haven't put a strategy in place or haven't really thought about it and just assumed you'd be able to run the ads on X dollars.
00:35:41.760 -->
00:35:49.440Um, it is something like I will be very honest, when I first started in ads, I would be like, you can give me 500 bucks and I will run your ads and they will work.
00:35:49.599 -->
00:35:56.400And if people had asked me those true like return on spend questions, I wouldn't have been able to answer them properly.
00:35:56.480 -->
00:35:58.239So that usually means someone's newer.
00:35:58.559 -->
00:36:00.559Now, I'm not saying don't work with someone newer.
00:36:00.719 -->
00:36:08.239If you have a lower budget, like there are people out there who will do your ads for much lower because they are learning, but they still have more experience than you.
00:36:08.480 -->
00:36:12.880So it's kind of how much risk versus not risk do you want?
00:36:13.119 -->
00:36:18.480Like I know people who do meta ads who charge$2,000 a month and want really big budgets.
00:36:18.719 -->
00:36:20.239They will sell your product.
00:36:20.400 -->
00:36:25.840That is like, I don't care what industry you're in at that budget, they know what they're doing so well, they will sell it.
00:36:26.000 -->
00:36:26.960Can you afford that?
00:36:27.119 -->
00:36:27.760I don't know.
00:36:28.000 -->
00:36:30.639So you kind of have to ask yourself these questions.
00:36:30.880 -->
00:36:43.599If someone's not answering those questions perfectly, but then goes back and says, like, I can figure it out for you, maybe pay them a little bit less or hope that they're charging a little bit less, but make sure that they're at least, you know, thinking of those things.
00:36:43.920 -->
00:36:52.239I think that's really great because that is, I would say, one of the biggest places that businesses, especially small businesses that are in the scaling phase, lose too much money.
00:36:52.719 -->
00:36:57.840And it happens so fast, it's like they blank and it's all gone all of a sudden, and like the retainers are high.
00:36:57.920 -->
00:37:02.639And it's just like, and then Google took the money and it's just like a lot of money going out.
00:37:03.199 -->
00:37:09.519So when you're talking to people as well, like this is a this is a really like I know I asked this question now.
00:37:09.599 -->
00:37:28.480I used to not like I used to get clients that would come and like I could tell that they were like they had a great product, loved the brand, but they weren't they weren't making ends meet and they were like looking at outsourcing social in order to like that's like the last thing, you know, like if we can get our social, then maybe we'll make it.
00:37:28.960 -->
00:37:32.320I don't take clients on like that anymore because of course that does not go well.
00:37:32.960 -->
00:37:45.360But I do hear stories of people like thinking that, you know, maybe we aren't really doing like we're kind of making even like hitting even, but if we invest in ads, maybe it'll push us into profitability.
00:37:45.599 -->
00:37:47.519What's your thought process around that?
00:37:47.760 -->
00:37:51.840And uh what people think, like what's your advice around that?
00:37:52.159 -->
00:37:55.039I don't think ads are the way to save your business.
00:37:55.199 -->
00:38:01.760So if you are being told you need like, I think a minimum budget nowadays is probably around$1,500 for ads.
00:38:01.920 -->
00:38:04.079That's you know, five to a thousand.
00:38:04.480 -->
00:38:10.400Um, it depends on who's managing, but like five to a thousand to management and probably about a thousand dollars in ad spend.
00:38:10.639 -->
00:38:16.320If you can't lose that for the next three or four months comfortably, ads are not the right place for you.
00:38:16.480 -->
00:38:22.480Um, and work it comes back to the organic, uh like social is free.
00:38:22.880 -->
00:38:26.239I mean, you can hire someone to do it, and SEO is free.
00:38:26.320 -->
00:38:28.880You can write and build and put more stuff out there.
00:38:28.960 -->
00:38:32.960You could do Google, um, Google Business Profile has posts that you can do.
00:38:33.119 -->
00:38:34.400There are so many things you can do.
00:38:34.480 -->
00:38:39.760You can go to more events, you can find free events and go to those and try to meet and and you know, talk to people.
00:38:39.920 -->
00:38:48.079So it sucks because no matter what, if your business is not doing well, you have to invest something, whether it's time or money, you need to decide what those pieces are.
00:38:48.400 -->
00:38:50.320Ads are not gonna save you.
00:38:50.880 -->
00:38:57.760I do really like social, but I often tell people like social is not like a direct conversion sort of platform.
00:38:57.840 -->
00:39:02.320Like you can't give someone X amount of dollars and say, you need to get me X amount of leads.
00:39:02.400 -->
00:39:04.000Like that's not how social works.
00:39:04.159 -->
00:39:10.400It's a very good platform for a lot of things, but it has a lot more awareness and brand to it.
00:39:10.559 -->
00:39:17.119Um, so it's really I hate, I always feel so bad when people come and they're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do social media, it's gonna make me X dollars.
00:39:17.199 -->
00:39:19.280So it's like that's not how it works.
00:39:19.440 -->
00:39:20.239It's not how it works.
00:39:20.400 -->
00:39:21.280It's the long game.
00:39:21.360 -->
00:39:25.280Yeah, it's the long game, it's the community building.
00:39:25.840 -->
00:39:33.280My best clients are always the ones where I'm helping with the organic and they have someone else running paid and lead gen.
00:39:33.519 -->
00:39:36.960And like together, it's perfect.
00:39:37.519 -->
00:39:40.320But and it has to be done together.
00:39:40.559 -->
00:39:43.920And like I always like the sussing out of the budget is key.
00:39:44.000 -->
00:39:46.159Like, is this you know, is this business funded?
00:39:46.239 -->
00:39:47.519And like, do they have the money?
00:39:47.679 -->
00:39:55.840Whether it's like they're maybe this business isn't making money yet, but they already have another business, and that's funding this business, like just making sure because there is a place.
00:39:56.239 -->
00:40:13.119I'm not sure if you experience this, but there is a place where energy, if there's desperation at all and anxiety around, like I need to make money um from your efforts, otherwise, like and they aren't doing anything, it actually just doesn't work.
00:40:13.199 -->
00:40:19.199Like the social media just doesn't work because energetically, like for me, organic does not, it just won't go.
00:40:19.440 -->
00:40:24.320Um, do you experience the same with paid and the work that you do with your clients?
00:40:24.639 -->
00:40:32.320Yes, I do feel so if someone is in that place where they're like, I need to sell, a lot of the times they'll sell to the wrong person.
00:40:32.719 -->
00:40:35.199And that's where the energy comes out in the wrong way.
00:40:35.360 -->
00:40:39.440So you'll get people who are upset or unhappy with your do with what you're doing.
00:40:39.760 -->
00:40:46.239Uh something I have started to learn in the last year is no is a really good word, and it is a really important word.
00:40:46.639 -->
00:40:48.079Um, you can't help everybody.
00:40:48.159 -->
00:40:55.920And one of the reasons I started SMB in the first place is that I am so glad there are people like you out there because I personally don't like social media.
00:40:56.000 -->
00:41:00.079I don't, I feel so uncomfortable, you know, doing the social media part of it.
00:41:00.159 -->
00:41:01.119It's so hard for me.
00:41:01.199 -->
00:41:04.719Like I've been in marketing for years, I have lots of experience.
00:41:04.880 -->
00:41:11.039My experience is not in design, it is not in making things look good, it is not in making things sound good.
00:41:11.199 -->
00:41:13.760Like I am really good at like the conversion pieces of those.
00:41:13.840 -->
00:41:15.679And social media is a different beast.
00:41:15.920 -->
00:41:23.840So sometimes you just have to like grin and bear it and and and and make it work the way you need to make it work.
00:41:24.079 -->
00:41:40.400Um, we have we have lots of those people, but like you have to still be able to say no, even if your business is in a bad place, because you want people like we I don't know if we necessarily discredit referrals anymore, but it used to be referrals were such a big thing, and now we don't really talk about them.
00:41:40.559 -->
00:41:41.519They are still huge.
00:41:41.599 -->
00:41:44.800They are still the foundation for all online.
00:41:45.280 -->
00:41:48.639So, I mean, you're probably the same, you probably believe the exact same thing.
00:41:48.880 -->
00:41:56.400Building a business from a place of referrals first, whether you have an online presence or not, is the most important foundation to then get online.
00:41:56.719 -->
00:42:01.119And then you just flip your online world into a referral growth engine.
00:42:01.199 -->
00:42:11.760So you've got your referrals following you that already know you in real life, and then they're referring you and they're staying on top of everything that you do, and then they're referring to their friends because they know what you're up to.
00:42:12.000 -->
00:42:22.159So your social media and all of the, you know, all your SEO work, all your organic work that you're doing everywhere, your referral network is watching.
00:42:22.400 -->
00:42:27.679And so, and they're going to be your biggest cheerleaders out in the real world and online.
00:42:27.840 -->
00:42:31.360They're gonna like all your stuff, they're gonna comment, they're gonna help you with the algorithm.
00:42:31.440 -->
00:42:35.599Like the in-person piece is almost where everyone needs to start.
00:42:35.840 -->
00:42:40.480And I find there's like, I saw a video of Gary Vee, and Gary V was just like he was livid.
00:42:40.639 -->
00:42:46.639There was like a question from like a 19-year-old being like, I have a laptop and I were, I'm at home and I don't go to school.
00:42:46.960 -->
00:42:49.039How can I make a million dollars in a year?
00:42:49.199 -->
00:43:01.199And he was so mad, he was like, in what world does one assume that you can just have a laptop and then a million dollars is waiting for you at the end of 12 months if you commit to it for long enough?
00:43:01.519 -->
00:43:17.679And so for me, it's the balance of the outside world and connecting outside, even though, you know, I mean, I'm an introvert, but I do it because it works, and then I'm able to create online opportunities because of that, and vice versa, online moving it to offline.
00:43:17.920 -->
00:43:28.880So that's where P I think everyone needs to start, and then you'll be super successful in organic, and then you'll you'll just have be able to add fuel to the fire with paid.
00:43:29.199 -->
00:43:30.639That's my hypothesis.
00:43:31.280 -->
00:43:35.199My organic immediately goes up when I go to events, so it's kind of like an automatic.
00:43:35.280 -->
00:43:37.119And I tell people like you should be at events.
00:43:37.199 -->
00:43:45.679And I know we don't wanna, we don't want to talk about COVID anymore, but it is the reason that so that SEO and social and were fundamentally changing.
00:43:45.840 -->
00:44:00.079Um, it kind of triggered this, like everybody was online, and then everybody started, you know, lying about how much they were making and how much they couldn't make to sell these, you know, MM, whatever weird courses that like didn't make any sense.
00:44:00.719 -->
00:44:04.159And then there was all of this like distrust on the internet.
00:44:04.719 -->
00:44:14.239And this kind of like weird little pod that we created in that time has come to this like breaking point where everybody's like, human beings, please.
00:44:14.320 -->
00:44:15.360We all work from home.
00:44:15.519 -->
00:44:21.119Even if you work at desk job, you've kind of got this like, you know, situation where you might have two days on, two days off.
00:44:21.280 -->
00:44:25.920Um, those types of people want to work with people they know, like, and trust.
00:44:26.000 -->
00:44:30.239And that's where like social media is that personal brand, brand building.
00:44:30.400 -->
00:44:33.599And then, you know, going in person is how you get yourself out there.
00:44:33.760 -->
00:44:38.239And like, you need to have your kind of like SEO and content in place.
00:44:38.400 -->
00:44:51.840But if you're not, one thing I always tell people is it like it's great that you write an article, but if you're not sharing that article, if you're not doing anything to get your name out there, like Google's not just gonna all of a sudden be like, oh my God, this article is so great.
00:44:51.920 -->
00:44:53.440I have to rank it number one.
00:44:53.679 -->
00:44:58.400You have to share it first, you have to share your stuff first for these things to start happening.
00:44:58.719 -->
00:45:04.960So 100% forever believe in going in person and meeting people.
00:45:05.280 -->
00:45:09.119The two-ish years that we got where that wasn't a thing is over.
00:45:09.199 -->
00:45:09.920It's so over.
00:45:10.079 -->
00:45:12.480Then it's it won't work anymore.
00:45:12.639 -->
00:45:14.800Like just online won't work.
00:45:14.960 -->
00:45:17.119Um, and you're even seeing that with like founders.
00:45:17.199 -->
00:45:28.559Like founders are front of big companies are going on in real life podcasts, like they're doing these things in real life um to up the ante on their or online worlds.
00:45:28.800 -->
00:45:30.719And so that's one thing I know.
00:45:30.800 -->
00:45:35.039I'm like, I will go to networking events and I'll meet people like, ah, I just don't really like social media.
00:45:35.119 -->
00:45:37.519Like, I just it's it's not aligned for me.
00:45:37.599 -->
00:45:41.039So you can't really find me anywhere, except for like my personal Instagram account.
00:45:41.199 -->
00:45:45.199That's like a weird name that like you would never know it was them and it's not a business account.
00:45:45.280 -->
00:45:50.639I'm like, the networking efforts that you're doing are falling flat because they're just stopping there.
00:45:51.519 -->
00:45:59.039Whereas you actually need to move the people online, you have to, and you have to be there however way you need to be.
00:45:59.119 -->
00:46:00.800You don't have to be dancing on camera.
00:46:00.880 -->
00:46:03.280I mean, that's always the one that everyone's like, I just don't want to dance on camera.
00:46:03.360 -->
00:46:08.639I'm like, I promise you, most people aren't dancing on camera anymore, except for like awesome Brienne.
00:46:08.800 -->
00:46:09.599I forget her last name.
00:46:09.679 -->
00:46:12.079She's in like Langley or something, and she just Oh, Aller.
00:46:12.159 -->
00:46:12.719Yeah, yeah.
00:46:12.960 -->
00:46:13.360Love her.
00:46:13.519 -->
00:46:14.320She's dancing.
00:46:14.480 -->
00:46:17.280Um, but like that's not the play.
00:46:17.440 -->
00:46:30.079Um, it's very educational and entertaining, and it's just yeah, you don't have to be the entertainer, but you do need to be on there um because CEOs are leading the charge for all of this.
00:46:31.039 -->
00:46:33.920Uh so that's my two cents on that.
00:46:34.480 -->
00:46:35.280So let's see.
00:46:35.599 -->
00:46:37.440One more question to round this out.
00:46:37.599 -->
00:46:39.519Obviously, let's go AI.
00:46:40.000 -->
00:46:43.119How do you see AI influencing all of this?
00:46:43.360 -->
00:46:47.760Social media strategies, organic SEO, like all of it.
00:46:47.920 -->
00:46:48.960Where are we going?
00:46:49.840 -->
00:46:59.119AI is going to be a part of the internet because we have this obsession with automating everything, and it is obviously smart enough that it is going to get better.
00:46:59.280 -->
00:47:04.880So I do foresee that every platform we use will have some AI component.
00:47:05.119 -->
00:47:07.039It will summarize things for you.
00:47:07.199 -->
00:47:11.280Um, now, one of the things people like to say is SEO is gonna die because AI is here.
00:47:11.440 -->
00:47:12.880Um, SEO is gonna change.
00:47:12.960 -->
00:47:15.199We've got a million different names for how SEO is gonna change.
00:47:15.280 -->
00:47:17.199We've got like AI, SEO, GEO.
00:47:17.360 -->
00:47:20.159Um, there's there's a few others that I don't think are gonna pick up.
00:47:20.320 -->
00:47:24.800Um, I like to use GEO, generative um engine optimization.
00:47:25.360 -->
00:47:32.800SEO is always going to be there, and search is always gonna be there because these platforms will always need to find a business.
00:47:32.960 -->
00:47:37.760So whether we are doing SEO on Instagram or on AI, it's always gonna be there.
00:47:38.000 -->
00:47:41.360I do, this is my prediction of how the internet's gonna go in 10 years.
00:47:41.599 -->
00:47:47.840I do think you're gonna need a website because you need somewhere to put the information that the AI is going to need.
00:47:48.079 -->
00:47:57.519Now, I don't necessarily believe that in 10 years, and I'm so sorry to all the designers, I hope I'm wrong, um, but you're probably not gonna be need a well-designed site anymore.
00:47:57.679 -->
00:48:02.960You are just going to need these flat pages that explain exactly what your service is.
00:48:03.199 -->
00:48:09.519And those pages are essentially going to be scanned by AI, and we're all going to be using these platform overlays.
00:48:09.760 -->
00:48:19.840Um, so whether that's ChatGPT, whether that's Instagram, I don't know what that's going to look like, but you're gonna have these kind of like hubs that you put all your information in and they're just gonna go in.
00:48:19.920 -->
00:48:31.119And that's kind of what like Google Business Profile, which is consistently getting bigger, um, is it's a platform where you put your services, your product, your name, and where you, you know, service.
00:48:31.519 -->
00:48:37.599Um, and Google scans that and then it uses that information for its AI call-outs and for all of its searches.
00:48:37.760 -->
00:48:40.079Um, so I do think that's kind of where we're going.
00:48:40.159 -->
00:48:42.159You're just gonna need to have one hub.
00:48:42.239 -->
00:48:46.320Um, and as long as you explain your services well in those one hubs, you'll be good.
00:48:46.559 -->
00:48:50.159There's always gonna be like Joe the Plumber is never gonna want to do his own SEO.
00:48:50.239 -->
00:48:51.760So I don't think it's dying.
00:48:51.920 -->
00:48:55.199Joe the plumber's probably never gonna want to do his own social media too.
00:48:55.360 -->
00:48:59.280So all of these things are still going to exist, they're just gonna exist differently.
00:48:59.519 -->
00:49:02.320But we are going to be using these platforms to search.
00:49:02.480 -->
00:49:03.920There's absolutely no way.
00:49:04.159 -->
00:49:12.880Voice search is gonna become important too, which is interesting because ChatGPT and voice search are so like the way that we talk and the way that ChatGPT writes are so different.
00:49:12.960 -->
00:49:16.800So I'm curious to see how those two pieces meld together.
00:49:16.960 -->
00:49:19.920Um, because you're not gonna want to have ChatGPT.
00:49:20.320 -->
00:49:24.960If you ever read Chat GPT like written content out loud, like not well done, it's so awful.
00:49:25.199 -->
00:49:26.960So, you know.
00:49:27.679 -->
00:49:30.400Everyone read your ChatGPT writing out loud.
00:49:30.719 -->
00:49:31.840Yes, please do it.
00:49:32.079 -->
00:49:42.480Yeah, I'm a huge fan of write what you want to write first, even if it's like grammatically terrible, just get the idea out of your brain and then ask GPT to help you.
00:49:42.800 -->
00:49:48.159Like do it that way, and you won't get this weird stuff because this stuff is just not it's not good.
00:49:48.239 -->
00:49:48.639It's not good.
00:49:49.519 -->
00:49:49.679No.
00:49:50.159 -->
00:49:51.920Well, those predictions are pretty solid.
00:49:52.320 -->
00:49:53.440I feel for those.
00:49:53.599 -->
00:50:01.920And I think at the end of the day, the foundation of all of that is real people still matter and organic is forever.
00:50:02.400 -->
00:50:09.840Um and showing up authentically and just having AI support is probably the game-changing key for everything.
00:50:10.719 -->
00:50:14.880Yes, which I know you're rocking it right now, Tiana, on your organic social media.
00:50:15.039 -->
00:50:17.280So I I hired somebody.
00:50:18.559 -->
00:50:18.880See?
00:50:19.199 -->
00:50:23.760If you can't, but you created the content, you're showing up all the time in those videos doing fun things.
00:50:24.000 -->
00:50:24.800Yes, yes.
00:50:24.960 -->
00:50:39.440And I do think that's uh the more I do work on my personal brand, um, and the more I kind of lean into that, the more I realize like people don't uh there's agencies are really big for like no face um information.
00:50:39.599 -->
00:50:43.440And I think people just want information now, but you can get information from anywhere.
00:50:43.519 -->
00:50:44.159You don't need that.
00:50:44.320 -->
00:50:46.719You wanna people wanna work with people.
00:50:46.960 -->
00:50:51.280So even if your agency has 50 people, you still kind of need a face.
00:50:51.360 -->
00:50:57.039I've seen brands who are actually starting to use AI faces because they have so much turnover, like um, which one?
00:50:57.280 -->
00:50:58.719Smashed is a really good example.
00:50:58.880 -->
00:51:03.519They went super, super viral for um, they had an intern do their marketing.
00:51:03.679 -->
00:51:05.519Um, it was crazy, it was nuts.
00:51:05.599 -->
00:51:09.280She was really good, but then she left and their next step was like, what do we do?
00:51:09.440 -->
00:51:11.920Um, and they ended up using an AI face instead.
00:51:12.000 -->
00:51:17.599And everybody at first was like, I don't know if we like this, but they still have the same amount of followers and they're still getting just as much engagement.
00:51:17.679 -->
00:51:19.199So obviously it's working.
00:51:19.519 -->
00:51:21.280Someone still needs to be the face.
00:51:21.360 -->
00:51:25.519So even doing my own social, I have someone else doing the actual posting for me.
00:51:25.599 -->
00:51:37.360I have learned very quickly like someone's gotta be the back end of that still, because people still want to like follow you, not follow brands, have to be really big to have true brand following.
00:51:37.760 -->
00:51:38.320Totally.
00:51:38.480 -->
00:51:42.400And then I guess to sum it all up in a bow is like consistency is key for all.
00:51:42.559 -->
00:51:42.880Yeah.
00:51:43.360 -->
00:51:50.000See, like, I'm gonna invest, I'm gonna do SEO for one month, and then no, please don't everyone.
00:51:50.079 -->
00:51:55.039It's the long game, it's the long game with organic social, and it's the long game with SEO.
00:51:55.119 -->
00:52:01.039And the fun thing is, organic social and SEO, they're BFFs now, and they're just rocking and rolling together.
00:52:01.119 -->
00:52:04.079So unfortunately, fortunately, you gotta do both.
00:52:04.320 -->
00:52:14.559Um, but there's always people out there, and this is like I would say one of like the rising careers is like organic social and organic SEO and all of that good stuff.
00:52:14.639 -->
00:52:20.559Is like it was here, it was like something like you just kind of had to think about and do, and now it's like it's at the top.
00:52:20.800 -->
00:52:25.440Like people are getting huge salaries to run organic everything.
00:52:25.679 -->
00:52:31.920Um, so it's definitely a rising career and like a lot of opportunity in that industry.
00:52:32.079 -->
00:52:34.320So yeah, and we're both doing it.
00:52:34.639 -->
00:52:36.079And we've been doing it for a minute.
00:52:37.599 -->
00:52:39.440So thank you, Tiana, for all of your wisdom.
00:52:39.519 -->
00:52:40.239There's so much.
00:52:40.400 -->
00:52:43.360I'm sure there's honestly I could pick your brain for hours.
00:52:43.599 -->
00:52:48.880Um, is there a way that people can, well, get more information about what's inside your brain?
00:52:49.199 -->
00:52:54.159Yeah, so I am so obsessively on uh Instagram.
00:52:54.239 -->
00:52:54.960It's my favorite.
00:52:55.039 -->
00:52:59.039I'm actually pretty, pretty big on threads lately because I love how wild wild west it still is.
00:52:59.119 -->
00:53:01.280Like it never really had a true strategy.
00:53:01.519 -->
00:53:01.920Love that.
00:53:02.000 -->
00:53:04.800Um, but you can find me at SMB Marketing School.
00:53:05.039 -->
00:53:07.039Um, I'm I'm always on there.
00:53:07.119 -->
00:53:12.880So love voice notes, love answering questions, and I share way, way, way too much.
00:53:13.519 -->
00:53:21.119And I feel like you have a resource that's like probably like the golden resource that people can snag, especially our small business owners doing it all.
00:53:21.360 -->
00:53:21.679Yeah.
00:53:21.760 -->
00:53:24.880So I do have a free keyword course.
00:53:24.960 -->
00:53:25.840So it's 30 minutes.
00:53:25.920 -->
00:53:30.159It helps you um write like your first list of keywords.
00:53:30.239 -->
00:53:34.880So this is what people are actually looking for on the internet to find the thing that you offer.
00:53:35.039 -->
00:53:40.719Um, so I always recommend, even if you're gonna do SEO advanced, not advanced, start with a keyword list.
00:53:40.800 -->
00:53:42.800You want to know what you're going to be targeting.
00:53:42.880 -->
00:53:44.800Um, so I do have a free resource for that.
00:53:45.039 -->
00:53:45.360Amazing.
00:53:45.440 -->
00:53:46.800And they can find it on your website?
00:53:46.960 -->
00:53:47.360Yes.
00:53:47.599 -->
00:53:47.920Perfect.
00:53:48.079 -->
00:53:50.719I will link it in the show notes below.
00:53:50.880 -->
00:53:54.880Um, Tiana, thank you so much for joining and sharing all of your wisdom.
00:53:55.039 -->
00:53:57.440Um, I am such a I love learning.
00:53:57.599 -->
00:54:04.719So it's just so great to one, be reassured that my hypotheses are correct because sometimes they are just hypotheses.
00:54:05.119 -->
00:54:09.920Um, and then also, well, now I know what a map, a map pack, a map pack.
00:54:10.000 -->
00:54:12.719Add that to my marketing terminology dictionary.
00:54:12.880 -->
00:54:15.599Uh I know we love to name things in marketing.
00:54:15.679 -->
00:54:18.000We have so many weird names for so many names.
00:54:18.079 -->
00:54:20.800There should be a dictionary only for marketing terminology.
00:54:20.880 -->
00:54:22.079I feel like it'd be good.
00:54:22.639 -->
00:54:38.000Uh well, have for everyone listening, have a really great rest of your evening, morning, afternoon, wherever you're at, whatever you're doing, and wishing you all the success as you continue to navigate the online world and turn all of that into beautiful offline customers.
00:54:38.159 -->
00:54:41.519Uh, have a really great day, and we will chat again soon.
00:54:42.559 -->
00:54:47.440Thank you so much for joining us on another episode of Fly Flamingo Fly with BNL.
00:54:47.599 -->
00:54:56.480We are so grateful you stopped by, and we hope that something from today's conversation ignited the inspiration you were looking for so that you can keep moving forward towards the life of your dreams.
00:54:56.719 -->
00:55:01.920This podcast was produced by BNL Media Consulting with the amazing help of Podigy Podcasts.
00:55:02.079 -->
00:55:09.119We'd love to hear your takeaways from this episode, so be sure to leave us a review as well as give us a follow on Instagram at BNL Social.
00:55:09.440 -->
00:55:18.320If you need any help with your social media marketing, feel free to visit our website at wwwnlmediaconsulting.com, and we would be more than happy to support you.
00:55:18.559 -->
00:55:22.880We hope you have an amazing day, and we cannot wait to catch with you again next time.
00:55:23.199 -->
00:55:24.480Have a good one, everyone.
